Passing - Is it a Privilege?

[chefhmboyrd]

first let's discuss the word priviledge......
Latin: privilegium - privus (private) leg,lex (law)

Priviledge is a right or immunity granted as a particular benefit, advantage, or favor

do i get special priviledge for looking like i do
most certainly
am i ashamed or sorry that i "pass" as a man
Hell No!
I am a man
i didn't go through what i have been through to march around and introduce myself as Andy the Transguy
screw that

People are gonna think what they want
and i don't give a rats ass!

I am not a very "political" person. but i do stand up for my LRGBLT.... (whatever) brothers and sisters.
i am out at work
they have seen the whole transition
i am out to my family
and they love me more than ever
i am out to my friends of all walks of life.

but.........
i never was a big flag wearing, rainbow brite, prostesting, badge wearing, card carrying member of the LRGBLT.

i intend to create change and promote unity quietly, whilst the world is sleeping.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I am happy and content with who and what I am. I think it is a shame that the medical community is still not dealing with the fluidity of sexuality and gender. Society is just ass backwards. We see Amanda Bynes, 24 yo, who is "retiring from acting", who is this person and really does anyone of us really care that she is retiring - no. Vanessa Carlton and Anna Paquin are both advocating their bisexuality to the public. I think it's a shame that they feel the need to address this. Is this a privilege? No. It is what it is.

Andrew, who didn't go thru what I did to march around to introduce myself as "Andy the transguy". This is so insulting. I understand the post, but this just doesn't sit well with me.

[Rockinonahigh]

Last summer I went to a trans suport meeting hear at the Philladelphia center,where ive been a suporter since it begain.The group is there for trans folks,ppl with trouble with gender expreson as well as cross dressers.ect.I have know most of these ladies and gentlemen on and off for a while.Dureing the meeting one of the girls sugested they have a beautician come to the next meeting to help with choseing makeup,dress styles and all.Then the person speaking turned to me and said ..we will get u a bubba coach.Folks I felt like I had been hit with a brick,no one said a word to the speaker who I have known for years and is a neighbor of mine.I just sat there like a dumb knot on a log with that same kind of look on my face hopeing she was kidding me,but she wasnt at all.It wasnt long that the meeting was over.Yes, I had picked her up and brought her to the meeting and was takeing her home.Not once did she say a word,nor have I herd from her sence.Yes ,t pissed me off big time,u bet it was hard for me not to say what was going thrue my mind wich was not nice for shure.
When ppl talk about privilege and passing I often wonder how we a a glbt community can say such things to other ppl,true we take a lot of crap from the straight world but we shouldnt have to deal with it in our own.We all know it happends ,one of these day I hope no matter who and how we represnt ourselves this dosent happen to someone else.Now dont think im digging up old bones hear cause all im doing is useing this as an example of how we shouldnt treat one another s its enogh to deal with the normal everyday bs of liveing in a world where we are put down,laughed at,stared at
ect.Respect is something we all should be given no mater how we id in the world...This is 2010 I hope at some point this happends...but im not holding mybreath.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I know many a drag queens. I seriously doubt that they would find comfort in this thread. I think they would be a bit upset to say the least. I don't understand why we as a community don't help each other instead of putting each other down in a hole? Maybe it's me, but lately I just get negative vibes from here. It doesn't feel like home. I think Jack and Medusa want this to be home. Home means love. That is what I think of when I close my eyes and imagine what it would be like. A huge mansion with a man cave and a lady's den. A giant pool, hot tub, and club house outback. Two or three Weber grills all around the pool. Lounge chairs everywhere. Chimneas everywhere. No neighbors to bitch and complain or call the po-po in. Woods surrounding this mansion. We would be celebrating each other - as we are. A home where everyone was welcome, and be as they are. No ifs ands or buts. Just love.

Andrew

[Dylan]

Andrew,

Why would drag queens be upset by this thread, and honestly, what do drag queens have to do with this conversation?


Confused,
Dylan

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I know many a drag queens. I seriously doubt that they would find comfort in this thread. I think they would be a bit upset to say the least. I don't understand why we as a community don't help each other instead of putting each other down in a hole? Maybe it's me, but lately I just get negative vibes from here. It doesn't feel like home.

Hey Andrew -

I definitely didn't start this thread to make anybody feel bad. I just had a lot of questions about whether and when passing is a privilege - and I wanted to open that conversation up beyond the femme privilege discussion. I'm really grateful to be hearing differing viewpoints, because I think it's an issue where there are many sides and perspectives - and maybe it's not an issue where we can get any sort of meaningful consensus - and maybe that's okay.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Rockinonahigh

Last summer I went to a trans suport meeting hear at the Philladelphia center,where ive been a suporter since it begain.The group is there for trans folks,ppl with trouble with gender expreson as well as cross dressers.ect.I have know most of these ladies and gentlemen on and off for a while.Dureing the meeting one of the girls sugested they have a beautician come to the next meeting to help with choseing makeup,dress styles and all.Then the person speaking turned to me and said ..we will get u a bubba coach.Folks I felt like I had been hit with a brick,no one said a word to the speaker who I have known for years and is a neighbor of mine.I just sat there like a dumb knot on a log with that same kind of look on my face hopeing she was kidding me,but she wasnt at all.It wasnt long that the meeting was over.Yes, I had picked her up and brought her to the meeting and was takeing her home.Not once did she say a word,nor have I herd from her sence.Yes ,t pissed me off big time,u bet it was hard for me not to say what was going thrue my mind wich was not nice for shure.
When ppl talk about privilege and passing I often wonder how we a a glbt community can say such things to other ppl,true we take a lot of crap from the straight world but we shouldnt have to deal with it in our own.We all know it happends ,one of these day I hope no matter who and how we represnt ourselves this dosent happen to someone else.Now dont think im digging up old bones hear cause all im doing is useing this as an example of how we shouldnt treat one another s its enogh to deal with the normal everyday bs of liveing in a world where we are put down,laughed at,stared at
ect.Respect is something we all should be given no mater how we id in the world...This is 2010 I hope at some point this happends...but im not holding mybreath.

I don't blame you for feeling this way at all! And, yes, a good example of how very bigoted the GLBTIQ (I have to include everyone- as the larger umbrella community can be so damn upsetting!). Sometimes, I find no difference from straight society (the anti-gay, lesbian, trans, intergendered, et. al. portion of it).

This comes up so often on the site (and certainly on the old site), I honestly can't figure out WTF is wrong with it! Often, I think about members that have been around since the old site's inception and wonder how they have been able to stick around.

It's hard because we do represent a part of the overriding queer community that historically has been put-down, and just not welcome much at all and these websites give people some place to find each other and interact. Yet, I have felt the slaps in the face like this as a butch. Concerning trans members, I have heard that things like B-F social events were not open to them at one time (blatantly not open!)). Then there is the hierarchy of what is femme!

ARGH!!

I'm sorry this happened to you, it was a deep insult to your integrity.

Like I said before (as have others), when will we walk together and stop the hate, stereotypes and oppression of each and every identification with our community? Once a year during Pride celebrations just isn’t cutting it!

Thinking that Butch Voices doing more than one conference in different cities may help. And the femme conferences as well as events like the ReUnion. Things are very different when we are able to actually be together in person…. Very different! But, how many of us can financially get to some of these yearly (a big reason I am happy to see BV doing multi-events)?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by chefhmboyrd

first let's discuss the word priviledge......
Latin: privilegium - privus (private) leg,lex (law)

Priviledge is a right or immunity granted as a particular benefit, advantage, or favor

do i get special priviledge for looking like i do
most certainly
am i ashamed or sorry that i "pass" as a man
Hell No!
I am a man
i didn't go through what i have been through to march around and introduce myself as Andy the Transguy
screw that

People are gonna think what they want
and i don't give a rats ass!

I am not a very "political" person. but i do stand up for my LRGBLT.... (whatever) brothers and sisters.
i am out at work
they have seen the whole transition
i am out to my family
and they love me more than ever
i am out to my friends of all walks of life.

but.........
i never was a big flag wearing, rainbow brite, prostesting, badge wearing, card carrying member of the LRGBLT.

i intend to create change and promote unity quietly, whilst the world is sleeping.

Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around all of the people from every part of the LGBTIQ community sleeping as we are all have been a part of the social, medical, mental health, political and legal processes that paved the way for you and others to go through transitioning. And have been for many years. It didn't happen over night and by transpeople only. The trans movement is an offshoot of the Second Wave of feminism. Look it up!

I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community. And to the hundreds of thousands of people from every walk of life with progressive politics that have donated time and money to organizations that serve and protect you! And I don't give a rats ass what you think of this while you are attending support groups needed for transpeople funded exclusively and in part by public funds. And, don’t even go to paying for elective surgeries yourself. Many people do this all of the time for various reasons. You do not have the only wallet that has been hit. And frankly, as an individual, I have no problem with my tax dollars going for trans surgeries or for mental health services. I'd like to see all of these services covered just like any other medical procedure by insurance or socially funded medical programs.

What the hell island do you think you live on?

[Strappie]

OK I'm not trying to derail anything here.. But I don't feel as though I am anymore privelaged then the next person...

My ID is who I am... like it or not I am a Female ID'd Butch. Does that get me more privileges, NO and do I feel like I'm not privileged, NO?

So for me.. I'm not privileged nor am I lacking privileges.

Just my opinion on me!!

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around all of the people from every part of the LGBTIQ community sleeping as we are all have been a part of the social, medical, mental health, political and legal processes that paved the way for you and others to go through transitioning. And have been for many years. It didn't happen over night and by transpeople only. The trans movement is an offshoot of the Second Wave of feminism. Look it up!

I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community. And to the hundreds of thousands of people from every walk of life with progressive politics that have donated time and money to organizations that serve and protect you! And I don't give a rats ass what you think of this while you are attending support groups needed for transpeople funded exclusively and in part by public funds. And, don’t even go to paying for elective surgeries yourself. Many people do this all of the time for various reasons. You do not have the only wallet that has been hit. And frankly, as an individual, I have no problem with my tax dollars going for trans surgeries or for mental health services. I'd like to see all of these services covered just like any other medical procedure by insurance or socially funded medical programs.

What the hell island do you think you live on?

Why do you find chef's post an affront to the LGBTQ community and this site?

Chef says very plainly that he has stood up for the GLBTQ community. I don't understand why not wanting to announce One's Self as a transguy at every meeting is an affront to others.

Also, the trans movement started well before Second Wave feminism started.

I also find it quite disturbing that you are trying to 'guilt' someone with your use of 'public funding'. People don't OWE allies a big hug...anymore than you owe straight allies a big hug.


So Had It,
Dylan

[Soon]

AtLastHome,

I, too, have a real problem with your post to Chef. Please explain, especially, these statements:

..."I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community".... Look it up!.....What the hell island do you think you live on?" / endquote

Similar to Dylan request, what is it exactly that has roused such inflammatory feelings towards Chef's post?


You have--on many occasions--purported yourself to be a trans ally and, yet, I question your previous statements when I read this post tonight.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Why do you find chef's post an affront to the LGBTQ community and this site?

Chef says very plainly that he has stood up for the GLBTQ community. I don't understand why not wanting to announce One's Self as a transguy at every meeting is an affront to others.

Also, the trans movement started well before Second Wave feminism started.

I also find it quite disturbing that you are trying to 'guilt' someone with your use of 'public funding'. People don't OWE allies a big hug...anymore than you owe straight allies a big hug.


So Had It,
Dylan

Think it speaks for itself and is a very good example of male priviledge.... No, Dylan, the Trans movement as a social movement stems directly from the Second Wave. Questioning the gender binary is a feminist concept. And I am so angry, I really am not going to get into this discussion. I said what I felt and it stands. It takes a hell of a lot to piss me off like this.... A LOT!

There are a hell of a lot of people behind transpeople and have done a hell of a lot to fight transphobia. And that post kicks shit in the eyes of trans supporters as well as relatives of trans or intergendered people. Afterall, transpeople and intergendered are the children, parents, cousins, spouses, etc. of every one of us, our families just like the rest of the LGBTIQ umbrella. Look at the stats. We are all affected by gender identification. It is not just the domain of the transgendered. None of us would have the kinds of changes that do in fact, make our lives better today without political and social movements and people that give a damn about human and civil rights working hard to effect change. You know, those that the poster doesn't give a rat's ass about! The one's he might very well want to thank. The one's that are still engaged in stopping hate crimes, for example and advocate for service for transgendered people. You don't have to be trans to be involved with trans politics.

[Rockinonahigh]

ALH~~
Yes,it was a huge insult but I just bit it back cause I really didnt see any good coimeing from me blowing up as it made many others already uncomfortable as it was.The next day I got a fue calls from others appolagising for the comment as it was uncalled for, wich I appresheated.Truth is I was so shocked at the comment it took a while for me to address it.If I have lerned anything over the years is controle when faced with situations like this.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Think it speaks for itself and is a very good example of male priviledge.... No, Dylan, the Trans movement as a social movement stems directly from the Second Wave. Questioning the gender binary is a feminist concept. And I am so angry, I really am not going to get into this discussion. I said what I felt and it stands. It takes a hell of a lot to piss me off like this.... A LOT!

There are a hell of a lot of people behind transpeople and have done a hell of a lot to fight transphobia. And that post kicks shit in the eyes of trans supporters as well as relatives of trans or intergendered people. Afterall, transpeople and intergendered are the children, parents, cousins, spouses, etc. of every one of us, our families just like the rest of the LGBTIQ umbrella. Look at the stats. We are all affected by gender identification. It is not just the domain of the transgendered. None of us would have the kinds of changes that do in fact, make our lives better today without political and social movements and people that give a damn about human and civil rights working hard to effect change. You know, those that the poster doesn't give a rat's ass about! The one's he might very well want to thank. The one's that are still engaged in stopping hate crimes, for example and advocate for service for transgendered people. You don't have to be trans to be involved with trans politics.

Yeah, none of us would be anywhere without activists. We do agree there.

However, Chef owes no one a thank you. I owe no one a thank you. And again, Second Wave Feminism may very well have questioned gender. However, again, transpeople have existed LOOONNNNNNNNG before Second Wave Feminism. And let's not forget too that Second Wave Feminists have shot transpeople in the ass.

I really have no idea what your issue is with Chef's post. And here's where I'll stop speaking for Chef.

I have a huge issue with your post back to me.

Originally Posted by Atlast

Yes, there is a but...

I am not going to be entirely happy until masculine women for which are no longer subjected to this kind of treatment and live in fear and ridicule. 1. And when masculine women can legally marry another woman (or gay men) as many transpeople can do (there is some more privilege!).

[B]2. Hence, our (the LGBTIQ cadre) joining forces politically and socially to not only see things like ENDA pass, same-sex marriage become legal throughout the entire US, trans and homophobia be a thing of the past Hope this happens in my lifetime, but, I have doubts). The entire queer community must join in solidarity, and fight for civil liberties and rights for[I] every single one of us!

Yes, you are starting to enjoy both male and straight privilege.... and hell no, do not feel guilt! 3. But, remember where you came from (although, I doubt you would as you are a political and social activist).

One of these Prides, my hope is that there is one, huge, unified Pride March and that that unity does not splinter as it so often does.

But... ENJOY! 4. I know that being any kind of queer in the south is a far cry from many other places, although, hate crimes are everywhere.

1. When it comes to transpeople and marriage, your post negates the fact that most transpeople actually CANNOT marry. And those who can, do so surreptiously. Most states won't allow transpeople to legally marry.

2. I actually disagree. I mean, yeah, it would be great if we could all come together and support eachother. However, our issues are different. Also, let's not forget who passed the first ENDA bill at the expense of transpeople.

3. First, I said it was a tight walk at this point. I'm sitting 'a top' not that much male or straight privilege. I get some from time to time. But, please explain your comment, "...remember where you came from". From where do you think I came? And also, why is it I've left from whence I came (in your opinion)?

4. Actually, most of the homophobia/transphobia I've experienced has come from the Yankee states/areas.


Dylan

[Dylan]

Atlast,

I'm really just wondering why you're telling transpeople how they need to act, and whom they need to thank.

And really? Telling the oppressed they need to be grateful to/for the oppressors? Really?


Dylan

[iamkeri1]

Privilege is seductive. Once you have it, it is extremely difficult to give it up, and I acknowlege the fact that I do not want to give it up. While I agree with papachris that I would (I hope to God) In my own life I have experience the privilege of "passing" for most of my adult life. I am cis-gendered, love being a woman and femme, and have passed as straight thoughout my queer evolution. For half of my life, I have had the additional privilege of "passing" as straight in a straight relationship, because my late husband was FTM. Now, six years later, I am beginning a relationship with another FTM who has lived his whole adult life as male. So the "passing" privilege goes on.

Passing has brought me much in the way of privilege. In hundreds of ways, far too many to list, I have benefitted from having been perceived as straight.
The two most important to me have been that I was able to legally marry my beloved and have society acknowledge him as my husband, and that we were able to adopt children as a couple, and have both names on the paperwork, and not have to fight for that right/privilege. My relationship was recognized and supported in ways that would never have happened had we been gay. (Or for that matter, if they had known he was trans.)

I echo PapaC's Hopes (quoted below) that I would be able to tell who I am if ever confronted. But I deeply hope I will not have to face this confrontation.
[QUOTE=PapaC;134067]
Is it because I'm stealth? Yes and no. I'd like to think that I have the strength/courage/determination to be able to look at someone straight in the face if ever asked and state who/what I am.

Here's the flip side for me. I am in the closet as I never was in the thirteen years I was evolving as a lesbian prior to my knowledge of my darling's trans status. I have secrets that are important to me to protect, and which would be very painfull for my whole family if they were revealed. (My children do not know that their father was not a bio-male. He did not want them to know, so I am honoring his wishes and maintaining silence though I feel like a "sword of Damocles" hangs over my head because of the possible "outing" of this secret.

While I have wonderful Gay friends from my earlier life, I feel alienated from "my people" due to my "straightness." I miss gay life. I miss the instant connection, the shared experience and the beauty of the lifestyle.

Yah, I know, cry me a river, chick, I know I have benfitted and I know I am privileged.

I will be back later for more. It's late.

Smooches,
Keri

[BullDog]

I don't have any issue one way or another with anyone's post, but in terms of health care and social services, feminism has helped to pave the way for many- including trans people- and there seems to be a lack of knowledge and appreciation for that at times. Sometimes it does feel like a kick in the teeth.

The reason some are able to pass is because of work that has been done before them to create the services needed for that. None of us would have access to the social services and health services we do now, however limited they may be, without the work done by the generations before us- in terms of the queer community that includes both feminists and trans activists (with overlap between the two of course).

Our Bodies Ourselves- our ability to have agency and control over our bodies- is very critical for women and trans people (some of course are both)- and all the work that has gone into that has given us so much more than those who went before us.

It seems a bit hard to hear sometimes that I am just doing my thing and take my privilege and no I'm not a political activist.

I posted a link to this already in another thread, but there was an interesting article written by Michelle O'Brien, a trans woman, who discusses the intersections of feminism and trans activism, particularly around health care issues.

http://www.deadletters.biz/feminism.pdf

As to the topic of this thread, I do not pass for male and I do not pass for straight. I pass as a dyke or lesbian, which is what I am. I don't think many people out in the world really understand or know about butch or what that is. If I am mistaken for male, it is only temporary. I don't think many see me as straight because I am treated quite differently from feminine women- straight men seem to think quite often that women are at their disposal- for their attentions, to do their bidding, etc- which is why I have never thought of femmes as having any sort of straight privilege. Men ignore me, unless they are being hostile.

I am white, middle class and able bodied so I do have my own sets of privileges. Being a masculine woman is a mixed bag. I am more at risk in some ways for homophobic attacks, but I am also fairly insulated from male attention and many assumptions they can have about women- which I am quite grateful for.

[apretty]

i hate being confused for straight; it sucks being thought of as something (anything) i'm not.

[lillith]

This is interesting. I am currently working on a Ph D. internship and my topic is Nella Larsen's novel Passing, and have had to recently define what it is. It never really dawned on me all the different ways it can be applied. Even in a fiction novel from the Harlem Renaissance, the characters enjoy some kind of privlegde as Mulottas passing as white.

I know for my life being a femme is both difficult and a luxury. In this internship, I have had to explain my life and who I am to my peers because there is sort of no way around it. One of my peers is a straight girl who is rather masculine and she has to explain to people, including her family, that she is straight. We have exchanged stories of invisibility and now that this topic has come up, I will have to ask her about any privledges she feels she has or lacks because of her appareance.

Thanks for the thought provoking topics of discussion that I can take into the real world and find out about.

lillith

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Atlast,

I'm really just wondering why you're telling transpeople how they need to act, and whom they need to thank.

And really? Telling the oppressed they need to be grateful to/for the oppressors? Really?


Dylan

Dylan, that is not what I am doing or want to do. I was offended by a total disregard for the fact that there exist many that support and have worked hard for transgendered people. And that it stuck in my craw that someone doesn't give a rat's ass about this when this very site is part of a community of very diverse populations. A community...

You are taking this way out of context. You know very well where I stand on trans politics.

So, allies, relatives and supporters of transgendered and intergendered people are their oppressors? Having some humility and recognizing that there is much to be grateful for is something I cherish. I wake up every day with the knowledge that so much is much bigger than myself and my own trials and tribulations even when they have been many and difficult (although, most people go through some shit). I'm grateful for being alive and able to contribute to what exists outside myself. Yes, personally, I get tired of people (in general) that only view the world in terms of themselves and don’t recognize how interconnected we all really are. I give a big rat's ass about people and their struggles. You know this. I do not suffer self-absorption well, never have, never will and make no bones about this… and won’t.

I really don't feel like getting into this with you. I have great regard for you and like you very much. We have had our site ups and downs, but I believe have much in common with queer politics. I am not taking this to task as you are just not understanding what I am upset about.

Obviously, other people have things to post that are important to them and have moved on. I am moving on....