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Old 06-13-2010, 08:41 PM   #41
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Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?
I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?
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Old 06-13-2010, 08:45 PM   #42
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Code of Ethics.

For me, number one also includes not dating a friend's ex-girlfriend.

I would not say that it is "unethical" to date a friends ex-g.f. per say, and some people may even ask their friend if it would be ok, but for me, I find it best just to see anyone that any of my friends have dated as being "off limits". It just makes things a lot easier.

Anyone else follow this "rule"?
I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.
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Old 06-13-2010, 08:55 PM   #43
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I do, I think it keeps my friendships "cleaner," simpler and most definitely easier.

Exactly.

Like Corkey said, it never even enters my head.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:02 PM   #44
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I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?
I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:03 PM   #45
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Truth be told, I have very few butch friends online or in RT. I tend to not socialize in the queer world in RT. My closest friends are straight males. I had a big falling out with a lot of my butch friends a few years ago while going through a messy breakup that was characterized by one side as something it totally wasn't. There was a perception, I think, that I had done a dishonorable thing, when I really hadn't. Anyway, that whole experience sort of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's only recently that I have welcomed friendship from butches, and I like that I have someone I can talk to who automatically knows the shorthand, as it were. I do plan on being somewhat selective in my friendships based on lessons learned.

Jake
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:14 PM   #46
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Truth be told, I have very few butch friends online or in RT. I tend to not socialize in the queer world in RT. My closest friends are straight males. I had a big falling out with a lot of my butch friends a few years ago while going through a messy breakup that was characterized by one side as something it totally wasn't. There was a perception, I think, that I had done a dishonorable thing, when I really hadn't. Anyway, that whole experience sort of left a bad taste in my mouth. It's only recently that I have welcomed friendship from butches, and I like that I have someone I can talk to who automatically knows the shorthand, as it were. I do plan on being someone selective in my friendships based on lessons learned.

Jake
I, personally, have no real time butch or transguy friends. All of my gay friends are androgynous, and although I love them dearly, I so wish I had someone to have "shorthand" with, in real life.

God knows how I have found femme off line to date. The femmes I have dated (except for once, I only date locally), have never been able to find femme friends, either.

And when it comes to online, I am not really connected to any butches/transguys, either. Has just fallen out that way, for whatever reason?

I am very thankful for b/f/trans space on the internet, however. I certainly get a lot of my needs met just by being on this type of site.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:18 PM   #47
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I think it is a different category, but I have never done that either. Nor do I think I would.

I tend to not have regular contact with my ex-g.f.s, subsequently, I tend to not continue friendships with that person's closest friends.

To use Liam's words, I tend to like thing "clean" and "simple" in my life. Relationships are tough enough, adding in nebulous boundaries can make them harder!
Right on. Same here, except for one, I won't get into details. I know what you mean though. It's like a new chapter for me when the relationship is over, especially if it was ltr.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:24 PM   #48
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I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).

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I think it's a good rule to follow. There are plenty of beautiful women out there to choose from. Now that being said, has anyone ever dated an ex's friend or does that fall into the same category?
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:40 PM   #49
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I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).
Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:45 PM   #50
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I don't know any transmen or other butches in real time. I sometimes feel like a phantom moving through the world. I can appear to be indecisive on certain subjects, but that's because I have a strong sense of seeing both sides of an issue and I greatly respect others opinions and their views. Not to say I don't have strong opinions, but real life interaction would be so beneficial at times.

I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there.

I don't post a lot because life keeps me busy and I do have other interests, but this is a thread I will follow.
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:54 PM   #51
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I think so because for me it gets a little incestuous (hope that word is ok to use and doesn't offend anybody).
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Nope I see it all the time with another group of friends. This one is with that ones ex and this one is with that one ex and this one is with this ones mom. It gets ridiculous.

Right, to me that is "incestuous" (for lack of a better term). I have been fortunate that my group of friends (well, I have more than one "pocket" of friends, I guess I should say), don't operate in this way. It would be uncomfortable for me to be with a whole group of people who have moved from one person to the next in a group (talking monogamous relationships here).

However, it happens. I think that part of it (at least, "back in the day", when I saw it more), relates to the fact that there is a limited "supply" of homosexual females/queers (in comparison to heterosexuals, for example).
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:14 PM   #52
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Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?
I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:22 PM   #53
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[QUOTE=Kosmo;129882]
....I am glad to see this thread started. I have always noticed the online difficulties we as transmen and butches have had relating or communicating with each other and have always wondered why that is.

Is it because we've all had our share of struggles in negotiating the world, our self-identity, others expectations, etc. and we are more guarded and protective of that? Is it for fear of becoming left out? Is it competitive posturing for the attentions of femmes?

Just throwing some stuff out there....

QUOTE]

You know, I honestly have to say that until this site I really didn't notice the infighting. And I was on the other site most often daily, for years. I don't know what the hell I was doing over there, but I just didn't notice. Perhaps I moved off of those threads when the craziness started, but I also think that back then I never noticed people, I just noticed posts, if that makes any sense. I didn't have an investment in the same way b/c I never really posted, or connected with others.

I didn't watch the relationships between others at all, so I wouldn't have tracked how things shook out between groups of people. I think I was just so wrapped up in reading about gender, I just moved along. So, maybe that is why I didn't notice.

In terms of this site, I have obviously seen it. However, I haven't noticed any real communication/relating problems between trans people and butches...more so within butch groupings.

I would very much like to read others' thoughts on this, BUT, not at the expense of us coming together in the way that we are right now.

ETA: So, unless our talking about what happened in the past is set up as a way to move forward, I would be hesitant for us to have that discussion, I guess I am saying.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:25 PM   #54
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<clip>All of my gay friends are androgynous, and although I love them dearly, I so wish I had someone to have "shorthand" with, in real life.

<clip>
Same here. Sometimes it feels kinda strange. I need to shop around for a butch buddy, lol.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:41 PM   #55
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Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask you what you are? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

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Old 06-13-2010, 10:43 PM   #56
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I would say all of the above. When I was younger and didn't have a strong sense of self I have been that guy. I used to participate in what I called "butch contests", trying to get girls attention. I recognized it and still participated in it. Not anymore though. I would rather support my brother than compete. That also includes letting him know when he's being an asshat.
Yes, I agree about the 'butch contests'. In the club/bar environment for me.

My sense of self took years to develop and I'm still honing it. Now I am comfortable in who I am. Like the proverbial pair of favorite jeans, t-shirt or sneakers. I've also allowed myself to be more fluid in how I identify regarding male/female. I'm finding my center so to speak.

I no longer feel that false need to prove some sort of degree of being butch.

I think supporting each other is important. And being honest, even more so.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:47 PM   #57
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Strappie, personally I don't care about the dash site, or what they do or don't do, I have no vested interest in that site. I know that this site and the owners are very inclusive and would not in any way be divisive to the membership. So what the owner of the other site does or doesn't do in no way effects me or mine. And take your time to express yourself, I'm in no hurry.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:51 PM   #58
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Hey Guys,

Please take my words not always literally for I am not the best at putting words into writing like some of you so eloquently do.

I am asking this from my heart and not being an ass in anyway shape or form. I'm not so "up" on my trans knowledge so please bare with me while I come up with words that do not offend anyone. And please believe me when I say this is from my heart because one of my best buds is Post-Op (he says he thinks we were separated at birth) lol

ok so here it goes....

Over at the Dash site I started a thread pertaining to the Olivia Cruise: in regards of Trans folks not being welcome on a Olivia Cruise. I wanted to ask the question but I stopped before because my previous questions stirred up some not so happy comments from folks including the owner.

My question is this, How are they to know if some random Joe Blow who has never been through a transition get on the Cruise? For real.. I'm not trying to stir up shit trust me. Can't any male just hop on the ship? How are they to know who transitioned and who hasn't? I want all my friends gay-lesbian-trans-tg-ect... to be able to enjoy the things I enjoy not because of who I am or who they are. I want equal rights for ALL.

They would have to let "everyone" on the ship? No? How could they not, are they really going to ask me if I'm really gay? Will they ask if you? I don't know ... I think I should make a phone call.

Hey, Strappie. I am curious to know this as well. Does Olivia cruises only let cissexed gay females on the cruises? Do they let any other group on? MTFs? FTMs? Cis gay males? Cis straight males? Cis straight females? (I am pretty sure the answer is yes to the last one..straight cis females can come).

I would really like to know. Not b/c I am planning on going, but b/c I would like to know.

Also, if it is typcially only gay females, did the admin of the dash site may a special request that EVERYONE on her web site be able to attend?

Let us (or at least me!) know if you make that phone call/pose that question on the site, what you find out.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:59 PM   #59
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Corkey,

Thanks for not taking my words wrong. I find it a bit absurd that they would allow Men to go on the Cruise. They might as well open it up if they do that. I guess at this point I'm frustrated with the decision they made because I do know some do not feel it would be a welcoming place for them. I've heard a couple of times, "why would I support a function that is for "women" only.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:01 PM   #60
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Strappie,

I don't know who Olivia markets their cruises to now. I know how they initially did. They probably have a website you can check.
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