Butch Pronouns - A Questionaire

[Cin]

I am a woman and comfortable enough with my biological sex to consider myself a she. Genderwise it doesn't exactly fit for me but what are you gonna do. I am a feminist and my primary allegiance is and always will be with other women. I am a butch and I am a woman so the pronoun she works. However quirky as it may sound I don't mind when someone who sees me as a butch woman or even just understands me as butch calls me he. When people call me he because they can't see the woman I am because it doesn't match their idea of what a woman looks like or because I don't present the proper markers to trigger the female identity for them then I don't care for it so much.

I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it.

It's not the first time or the only situation where I have had to NOT use a pronoun when referencing someone. I am quite adept at it. Thankfully I don't have to do it to protect my job anymore. Born twenty years too soon.

[Celtglen]

I never have found one that fits ME

'nuff said me thinks.

I think it are me boobs and curves, I cannot, physically bind---OUCH! So I am what I am Butch with a full on female Bod.

As long as my wife loves me as I am I am good with it. Wifey is a Fierce Femme who sports dresses as well as jeans (truth be though I love her in heels)
no one ever pings her for Queer.

Me though, its the pants, the flannel the boots--I look female but AM BUTCH.

Go ahead, classify me, "You feeling lucky, punk, you feeling...lucky?" from the movie and NOT to be taken as a threat at ALLL!!!!

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I continue to wonder why so many butches do not use the pronoun preferred slot under their name. Then this issue of people being insulted when someone uses the wrong pronoun for them could be avoided.

The reality (whether we want to see it or not), is that people have defaults, based on their experiences with butches (online and offline). I find it hard to believe that most people are purposely calling others by the wrong pronoun due to their own agenda as to what pronoun they believe should be the default pronoun for a butch.

I think it is unfair for someone to be upset if the wrong pronoun is used for them if they do not tell the member what to call them by using the preferred pronoun slot. It is not fair to expect that everyone will remember what pronoun you/someone else used to refer to you in a post long ago (that most likely, the person never even read).

Too, even if you use the preferred pronoun slot, give people a break who make a mistake. There are people who have not been online for many years and do not know that there is a possibility that people prefer one pronoun over the other (I would suggest that offline b/f communities, especially those who do not frequent b/f forums, use one or the other almost exclusively).

I think that until we know otherwise, lets give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if you do not use the preferred pronoun slot). I know I appreciate it when someone uses it.

With all of that said, I have heard butches say that there are times that people know their preferred pronoun, yet insist on calling them by the speaker's preferred pronoun for butches. I see this as unexcusable. Like most things in life, it is all about intent.

One last thing, when talking about the above, I am obviously referring to times when one does not have the opportunity to ask the person's preferred pronoun before using a pronoun for the person (assuming the person has not used the pronoun slot).

Dapper gets the prize for using the word 'pronoun' the most times (correctly) in one post.

I wanted to show up and basically agree with every one. The first two parts I have bolded above make perfect sense to me. I have in the past used the pronoun space or not, mostly not. It is not to confuse, but I just don't get all wound up about it if someone who doesn't know me picks whatever is handy. People who know me beyond posts, or have seen me post over time will know that I prefer gender neutral and that there are plenty of choices that are non-specific. If it is more comfortable for the other person to use gender specific pronouns, I would trend toward male. It fits in my head better as it is how I ID to myself.

To that end, at least for now, I have filled in that slot. We have a lot of new folks on the site and I can see where if they are new to BF terminology or gender politics it could make them more comfortable if they want to address me. I don't know how long it will be there but it is now.

The third portion I bolded above is something I have also experienced. I put it in the same category as other forms of willful disrespect.

Originally Posted by Parker

Bouncing off of Dapper's thoughts: and if the butch has a preferred pronoun on their profile, but the wrong pronoun is accidentally used, it is not meant as an insult when that butch corrects the person speaking to them.

Agreeing here also, but mostly using this as a springboard to ask Parker something I've wanted to know for a while but keep forgetting to ask. You list your preference as 'She, of course!' (currently and for a while now), my question is why use the 'of course' part? To me when looking at a butch's profile there is no assumed default. I would see it more useful for a femme (don't take that the wrong way) just because I don't see femmes IDing as male. Anything is possible though.

The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly?

BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all...

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

<snip>

I always use the pronoun the person prefers if I know it. I will ask if I don't and it's an option or I will refrain from using a pronoun if I don't know it.

Good policy and one I use too.

[DapperButch]

Kelt,
Something that is very funny is earlier today I was reminded that you don't use the pronoun slot. I was actually going to razz you about it, but didn't, because I'm nice like that.

Thanks for your post. Lets hear it for using the pronoun slot so ALL genders/sexes can live in harmony!

<--- thinks we have a pronounphobicslot epidemic here

[macele]

i've always liked the fact that melissa etheridge stays away from using pronouns in her songs. it's neutral. can go either way. but, i've never really gave pronouns much thought as in referring to me. i've always been a she and it doesn't bother me, ... never have felt that i should be anything other than she/her. i am butch, btw. a woman. female. lesbian. sometimes a smartass. sometimes a tomboy. all days a diehard pat summitt fan. etc. etc. ...

i will call you whatever makes you happy. that's what matters. if you are happy.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Kelt

Agreeing here also, but mostly using this as a springboard to ask Parker something I've wanted to know for a while but keep forgetting to ask. You list your preference as 'She, of course!' (currently and for a while now), my question is why use the 'of course' part? To me when looking at a butch's profile there is no assumed default. I would see it more useful for a femme (don't take that the wrong way) just because I don't see femmes IDing as male. Anything is possible though.

The way I read it is as: Of course it is She, what else would it be? Well, with butches it could in fact be male as another option. Am I reading it incorrectly?

BTW, in no way does your choice bother me, I simply do not understand it. Curious minds and all...

I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"?

Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.

Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by Parker

I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"?

Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.

Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol

I now understand how it is to be read from your point of view, I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

I find one part of your underlying premise to be untenable, "and women use "she". However, it is not part of my original question which was a simple curiosity based linguistics question about your chosen phraseology. In light of that, I will respectfully agree to disagree on that point.

I know neither one of us wants to reopen a decade old debate. So again, thank you for your answer.

[princessbelle]

I would like to mention that i've never ran across anyone who would get upset when using the wrong pronoun. Especially at the beginning.

You can't tell by appearance, by gender, by anything else for that matter so there are honestly, no clues. It is just a personal decision. I also do try to steer away from it best i can, by using you or the name of the person when i'm not sure and don't want to appear rude.

Let's face it we are a community of very fluid pronouns and most of us know by now to ask which one to use for which person. At times i do feel like i need a schematic to keep up with it and boy oh boy do i falter. But, MY experience has been met with kindness and a gentle redirection.

You could tell me you are a she and the next sentence it could come out a he, but i mean no harm or disrespect. It's just hard to remember for me.

On top of that we are all evolving and growing and changing and our gender and or pronouns do too sometimes.

It's best to ask, but hard to remember. I guess would be my answer to this ever changing pronoun.

[Kelt]

Princessbelle,

I completely agree with you. Your point about not having external identifiers is especially pertinent online, most of the time we have no idea as to the appearance, much less preferences, of any given individual. A little flexibility goes a long way.

I think the English language has evolved significantly over time and already provides many gender neutral options as is. If the it hadn't we'd still be using a lot of thee's and thou's. Seeing the evolution of terms in urban slang and also in personal identifiers is promising. I hope it continues and that the use of gender specifics diminishes and that people of all sorts begin to view it as less relevant in conversation.

[odd_boi_out]

The Butch Pronoun Questionnaire

1. How do you identify? Transmasculine, butch

2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? They

2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Pretty well, I guess

2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I used he for a number of years, and she when I was growing up

3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? I always prefer they, but in some settings and around some people I don't feel comfortable sharing that. Most people tend to default to using he for me unless I tell them otherwise.

4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Moderately important, though I don't get too bent out of shape about it

5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Somewhat invalidated, but I'm pretty used to it

5b. How do/would you react? I probably wouldn't do anything

6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Confused, and a little embarassed

6b. How do/would you react? Again, I probably wouldn't do anything. I'm ridiculously nonconfrontational.

7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Really confused. I've never heard/seen anyone use the pronoun hy outside of this forum.

7b. How do/would you react? I'm not sure.

8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? A little frustrated, I think, though also impressed that the person was comfortable with nonbinary pronouns.

8b. How do/would you react? I would probably make a point to let the person know that I don't use the pronoun zie.

9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? In general, I strive to ensure that I use people's preferred pronouns.

10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really. I used to, but as a butch who has preferred different pronouns over the course of my (rather short) life but who myself has changed very little, I no longer really associate universal distinctions between butches who identify with different pronouns.

11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I would probably avoid using a pronoun or use the pronoun that others are using for them. If I really felt that I had to default, I would probably default to she. I know more butches who prefer she than those who prefer other pronouns.

11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Each person has the right to decide what pronoun works best for them.

12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? Not usually, but if I had to, I'd probably use she, for the reason given above.

13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I've never partnered with a butch before.

14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No

[NitroChrys_Butch]

Originally Posted by Nat

I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.

I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.

What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.

If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"

The Butch Pronoun Questionaire

1. How do you identify? Butch

2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? Hy/Hys/Hym

2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? YES

2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? Just these.

3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? No.. always masculine pronouns.

3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? Feminine pronouns do not apply.

4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? It is important to Me but I don't make a huge issue of it. I understand to others I may seem to be in need of some feminine pronouns.

5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? It makes Me smile when they do.

5b. How do/would you react? Like the gentleman I was raised to be.

6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? It irritates Me but I cringe and bear it.

6b. How do/would you react? Like the gentleman I was raised to be.

7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? They do and it is.

7b. How do/would you react? See above.

8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? This is not something I relate to but I would not make an issue of it.

8b. How do/would you react? Like the gentleman I was raised to be.

9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? YES.

9b. If not, why not? NA

9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? I find that respect is necessary and do what I can to find out how someone wishes to be addressed.

10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really.

10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? Of course.

10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? Of course.

11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I ask them. I like picking peoples's brains. I am not a zombie, however.

11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? I find out what is important to them. It is all about respect. I do not use default pronouns.

11c. If not, what do you do instead? I ask them how they prefer to be addressed.

11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Free will. Everyone will learn in time.

12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? No. There is no thing as a hypothetical butch. That butch is "out" there lurking.

12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? NA

12c. If not, what do you do instead? See above.

12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. No one has the right to enforce one set of "fit-all" protocol on others.

13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? When I do so, it is always masculine pronouns.

13b. If so, what pronoun? Hy/He His/Hys Hym/Him

13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be? Because it is the way it should be.

14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? Yes. I have also done the correcting.

14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? I learned that I have a lot to learn. I should be corrected.

15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? They are what feels right. It is innate.

16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?

It was a pleasure to participate.

[Kelt]

I’m baaack.

I know I said I would let go of this, but of course I couldn’t. This statement has been festering away in my brain for days now. (I don’t like feeling erased)

Originally Posted by Parker

I had a long drawn out post, but it is actually much too simple for all those words: you are correct when you say that it means: "Of course it is She, what else would it be?" because my "How do you ID?" says "woman" and women use "she"?

Even if someone thought I meant "of course it's she, I'm butch!" that would be putting words in my mouth since it is my personal preferred pronoun, which means I am speaking for myself, not all butches. In all of the years I have posted on this forum and the dash site, I have never spoken for all butches (or all anything, really) and in fact would counter anyone who tried.

Ok, that is still a lot of words, but I swear it is way less then what I originally had. lol

I honestly didn’t think there was anyway I could make sense out of it but I might have now and I am hoping that Parker will come in here and give me a confirmation. Or denial, either way I really am trying to figure out context.

Generally speaking when I read something I try to look at the surrounding context to make sure I’m getting it right. If it still doesn’t work I default to the dictionary or encyclopedia. This is a case where I couldn’t make it work either way. The problem is I know that Parker is smart and more importantly, significantly better at being politically correct than I am.

So, I’ve been doing a wider search. I went out into the Internet and combed through dozens of videos, blog posts, and articles written/spoken by butches of varying ages and locations. In some cases I saw the word woman being used in a somewhat different (but unclear) way although mostly the dictionary way. Then I came back here to this website and searched the forums. I found a thread that started back in 2009, a big one about this subject. I got through 126 large posts before I found one that stated that to some people female=sex and woman=gender.

If I frame it as a gender instead of biology I can understand (after a lot of digging) what was meant. I’m looking for verification. Specifically from Parker; is this what you meant?

If it is, a little alternative definition in your reply would have gone a long way. Someone new to this site or the dynamic might not get it. I didn't.

[Kelt]

Well, I'm getting an education.

I want to thank the folks that have pm'd to send more information or give their point of view.

Clearly I have more studying to do. Back to the archives for more.

[Scots_On_The_Rocks]

I chose to answer only the following question as that based upon my answer to it, all other questions seem to be answered by proxy.

So here is the question I referenced and my answer.

1. How do you identify?

This is an interesting question.

The need within the queer community to quantify and validate our existence and identities into neat, organized categories, has caused us to label things to the point that we have become some long string of pronouns, adjectives and nouns. And oft we are touting off this diatribe of words to people who have stopped listening after the first two words of our identity, where we are striving through words to be seen as "different, unique, and new".

Sadly, language is both evolving and stagnating to the point that people still fall through the cracks between descriptors.

And that is where I fall into this.

There are no descriptors that I feel accurately describe me without my having fallen into the "alphabet soup" and come out covered in layer upon layer of adjectives.

So, oft, "for the sake of conversation", I momentarily don the name-tag of "male-identified butch", and then promptly take it off after introductions are made, because it is my actions that determine who I am, not a string of ill-fitting words.

And due to this aforementioned need to quantify and validate that is so rampant within the queer community, I refrain from throwing gender based monikers around when referring to others in that:

1. People tend to get rather defensive and aggressive around mis-usage of the "proper" descriptors of their choice.

2. I want to be as effectively respectful of others as I possibly can in the hopes that they in turn will respect my gender expression, gender identity, and gender preference.

[Tuff Stuff]

The Butch Pronoun Questionaire

1. How do you identify?
Butch Woman

2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)?
She

2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly?
Yes

2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past?
I was called he...some still call me that,actually.Men and women take me for a he on first impressions.

3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting?
Yes

3b. If so, can you please explain why and how?
If i'm going to see these people/strangers every day,they must see me as a butch woman,period

4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun?
Now days its very important!

5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel?
I'm NOT a he...I now joke with strangers and correct them

5b. How do/would you react?
I tell them i'm a butch woman...and leave it

9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? When in doubt,I ask them what do they prefer to be called

9b. If not, why not? Sometimes I fuck up

9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? Hoping he/hy'd stand up and correct me,no hard feelings would be taken

10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns?
No

10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond?
No

10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns?
No

11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun?
Yes, and I usually fuck up

11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
In the past i'd call he/hy a she,for some it can be seen as an insult to be called a Her/She

11c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them first

11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
No,all butches are not the same...even those that call themselves He/hy

12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun?
say what???
12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?
is this a trick question?

12c. If not, what do you do instead?
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around hypothetical butch

12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?
If there are hypothetical butches out there,most definintely.I mean,if you don't know what you are,how are we suppose to know what you are?...i'm curious about the different butches out there...although i'm more curious about the different femmes out there,just saying

14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch?
Yes

14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you?
You have to learn somewhere

15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns?
Well,yes and no.I mean it matters that I be seen as a butch woman.Other butches can call it as they see themselves..whatever they want others how to see them

16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be?
N/A...plz

my gawd

[JDeere]

Originally Posted by Nat

I have spent much of yesterday and today reading and re-reading the "Men with boobs" thread, and the use of default butch pronouns is one of many themes involved in that discussion.

I'm going to attach a poll, but there is not a poll that can cover every person's experience, thoughts, etc. So, in addition to the poll, I'm going to put a more inclusive questionaire below.

What I would like to do is ask anybody who participates in this thread to first fill out and post the questionaire - before addressing another person's answers to the questionaire.

If a question definitely does not apply to you, please write "N/A"

The Butch Pronoun Questionaire

1. How do you identify? Plain ole Butch

2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? Any of the pronouns from she, her to hy and hym.

2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? yes

2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? No

3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? Yes

3b. If so, can you please explain why and how? Depends on where I am and what situation and who is around.

4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? About 50-50

5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A

5b. How do/would you react? N/A

6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A

6b. How do/would you react? N/A

7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? N/A

7b. How do/would you react?N/A

8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? I would feel odd

8b. How do/would you react? Ask them to elaborate as I've never head this pronoun before

9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? Yes

9b. If not, why not? N/A

9c. If not, what do you see as the possible effects for that butch and others in the community? N/A

10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? No

10b. Do you feel that different pronouns clue you in about how a butch may look, think, feel, dress, act, talk, walk, fuck, bond? Yes

10c. Do you associate different ideologies, alliances or belief systems with different butch pronouns? No

11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? No I would ask

11b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why? N/a

11c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them what their pronoun is

11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why?No

12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? No

12b. If so, which pronoun do you use and why?N/A

12c. If not, what do you do instead? Ask them

12d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No

13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? No

13b. If so, what pronoun? n/A

13c. If so, can you share your thoughts about why this may be?N/A

14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? yes

14b. If so, how did you feel about it and how did it influence you? I felt bad but learned a lesson from it

15. Do you have any other thoughts regarding the use of butch pronouns? ALWAYS ALWAYS ASK

16. If you could add a question to this questionaire, what would it be? Why do pronouns even matter?

BUMP BUMP BUMP

I answered but not in color!