Being female within Butch

[Ascot]

Watching TV the other night I was once again bombarded with commercials for the next miracle anti-aging cream aimed at/for women. Some were replete with "Blah, blah gift included with your purchase of $XX or more, Estee Lauder, blah, blah...". Come to think of it, I don't know that I've ever seen skin care ads for anything other than those to do with shaving that were geared for men. But I digress. First, I was irked by all the messages implying that looking one's age was a horrible thing. God forbid a laugh line or a crow foot. (Wouldn't that be the singular? Don't get me started on the whole blue tooths vs. blue teeth thing.) Then I found myself thinking about how it feels when I am pressed to consciously choose products specifically because I am female. Yes, I am a woman. I've never had discomfort with that fact. The thing is, it just doesn't usually cross my mind. My gender is Butch; I embody female masculinity. When I interact with someone, anyone, I'm not thinking about doing so as a woman, but rather simply as a person. Having said that, when engaging with someone of the Femme persuasion, I am quite aware of the lovely frisson that courses through my Butch veins.

With the exception of bras, very much a necessity for me, literally every article of clothing I wear comes from the men's department. The paste I use in my hair-guy stuff. My deodorant-definitely not girly.My bath soap-cool smelling green tea stuff from Trader Joe's. My toothpaste-okay, that's probably gender neutral. So, when I recently decided to once again start taking a multivitamin, it was an odd and rather foreign experience to read labels and find the product best suited for me, a woman. It's been several years since I've had to purchase tampons, so I suspect that's part of the reason the feeling was stronger than it might have been when I was younger. Regarding the whole tampon thing; I eventually got over my discomfort with plunking them down in front of the cashier, but it still always made me squirm a bit to be standing in that aisle with all that pink and turquoise and whatever other colors marketers deemed most attractive to those in need of FEMININE hygiene products. It does my heart good to see that some company is now packaging their wares in pretty groovy black boxes.

It's entirely possible that I started this thread prematurely because I'm still sussing out my own thoughts/feelings on the subject, but I am curious to hear what others experience in regards to being reminded of one's femaleness while inhabiting butch skin. Is it no big deal? Does it suck for you? Is it just kind of weird or a little annoying? Does it make you want to leap with joy?

[randrum]

I'm not sure if I'm the best person to respond to this. In a lot of ways, I'm still sorting out my identity. But I relate to a lot of what you said.

Everything from my clothes to personal hygiene products in primarily "men's". That being said, I still need to buy tampons. And that's a struggle every time I go. I absolutely hate having to buy them. Whenever I can, I send my sister to buy them for me. Or I go to Sam's and buy a huge box so I don't have to worry about it for a while. And when I do buy them, my anxiety spikes and I can't even meet the cashiers eye. I pray no one sees me.

In terms of multivitamins, I take women's one a day. Because, well, I don't know all the differences between the men's and women's. And biologically I am female. That doesn't bother me so much, for some reason.

Bras. Ugh. That's another push button topic for me. I hate wearing them, in any form. I either wear a sports bra or a frog bra. Thankfully I can order those online now, and don't experience the nervousness and anxiety in the store.

[Ascot]

While I posted this in the "Butch Zone", I invite input from everyone.

Yeah, the whole tampon thing...blech. I don't think I was comfortable with it until I was in college. Eventually I got to the point where the pendulum swung far to the other side, and if I was in the mood for a little dose of schadenfreude, I would intentionally seek out a young male cashier just to watch him squirm. What can I say, I come by my sadism naturally.

The thing about choosing specifically women's vitamins, it didn't discomfit me, but I did find myself having an, "Oh, hmm, yeah, I suppose I should factor that in." moment.

[TruTexan]

I'm a butch , I'm female, I'm a woman (I Love who I am) and I get what you're saying here. Good thread by the way. I think it's worth talking about.
When I was younger, like 17 and early 20's, it used to bother me to buy tampons at the store, completely would get embarrassed. If I could send my gf to get them, I did. I hated buying them. Bra's on the other hand, never bothered me wearing them, I have boobs, I"m a woman, and it's a must have.
I could shop in the under wear dept in the stores and purchase women's jockey underwear cause they don't ride up my ass crack, I hate that, and I could purchase bra's no problem. Never embarrassed me about that. But the Tampon thing? OMG hell to the NO until I got into my 30's and just accepted the fact that it wasn't going to change any time soon so I let it go and stopped being embarrassed buying them. I actually had to stop using them because I would get cramps so bad when I did, I started using pads instead, no cramping with that. I hated having cramps. I hated mood swinging too when I was on my period. I hated it hated it hated it.
As for my clothing, always male, always men's jeans, men's shirts, men's t-shirts, some boxers that fit like shorts, and boys socks cause I have small feet, and boys shoes for the same reason. I do however wear women's sneakers, I find them more comfortable then the boys sneakers.
Multivitamins, nah, I have to take Vitamin D though cause I have a deficiency with it in my older age now.

I see those wrinkle commercials daily and I don't even think twice about it til I see one. I use dove soap to bathe with. I use Aussie shampoo and it smells good. I use CK1 cologne when I do wear it on special occasions. And I use Degree for women deodorant because it works best. I like the baby powder or fresh scent.

On a daily basis, I don't sit around thinking about girl stuff. I usually have too much running amok in my brain to do that. LOL
As I get older and older, I could give a rats ass and don't put too much emphasis on women's things anymore like I did when I was younger. Who cares, I'm still butch, I'm still me. Like me or hate me, I'm still me, and I will always be just me.
I have however thought about using some type of skin protectant/nourishing on my face and hands. Just not sure what to buy. I don't like greasy feeling stuff and I want it to quickly dry. Maybe I will talk to the femmes I know and see what they recommend. I don't mind getting old, hell my hair is all silver now mostly and I don't plan on dying it. LOL I want to grow old gracefully. Thanks for the thread Ascot. I will continue to read and post most likely. I hope more of the butches post responses too.

[bright_arrow]

I just wanted to chime in that even as a femme identified woman, buying tampons is awkward, though not so much as before. It's a fact of life, we don't feel uncomfortable when we buy toilet paper do we? Okay maybe some of us do, but come on.. basic necessities :-\

I've often been the tampon buyer for partners and now I don't really care. Tampons, condoms, underwear, toilet paper... If people want to judge my purchases they can have at it!

[JDeere]

I am glad you want input from everyone!

I am trans, pre T, pre surgeries so I still go through what you have mentioned.

I am the one who buys the tampons, pads, etc for myself as well as my partner (when I have one). I have no issues with that.

As far as bras go, yeah I still wear one, then a binder. Almost all my clothes are men's as well.

I do agree with the others, this is a great topic to be discussed.

[Cailin]

from a fence line view (former butch turned.... somewhat girlie-- i'm still holding onto some of the butch stuff)

Way back when, when I was contemplating transitioning (16 years ago) buying tampons or pads was the most embarrassing thing I think I had every done. I would walk around the store with the pack hidden somehow by other items, and wait until there was a clear check out lane, with no people in it so I could run in, hand money and run out.-- I'm better now, but I still don't discuss periods or bleeding or really

Being forced to walk in the womens section for clothing for bras was so humiliating, and honestly even to this day I'm still very embarrassed about it. I have no idea why, but I am.

But, I always envied how the girlier girls always had ample selections to chose from: Hair care products, bath products etc-- eventhough I used to be pretty simple in my selections-- VO5 shampoo, irish spring soap. I was never big on cologne but when I was a polo person (I preferred polo blue)

I can say I had never cared about facial products that much then, and really not so much now

I'm happy to age-- My hair is finally natural and I cannot wait until it goes grey, I've wanted that color all my life.



and I think i've lost my point...

[Ascot]

Thanks to those of you who have jumped in.

I think my referencing the purchasing of tampons served to derail where I hope this thread will go. No doubt that activity is uncomfortable, gross or even anxiety causing for some. The reason I mentioned it, however, was simply as an example in my recent history of having to choose a product specifically because I am female. I realize that might make it seem as though I'm inclined to lose sight of that fact, but as I wrote in the original post, it's more that I just rarely think about it. I live in a part of the country, (north of Seattle) where "Ma'am" is not widely used, unlike when I lived in North Carolina where it served as an almost daily reminder. Here, too, it seems as though people accept others as just people. My experience has largely been that my reception is the same from men and women. Maybe that's the case because of how I make my way in the world. I don't know. I can't speak to that anymore than theoretically.

My talking about wearing a bra was only to show the distinction between that and every other single thing I wear. As I do that every day, while it is inherently a female article of clothing, I don't even think about it that way anymore. It's just part of my daily dressing routine. Someone mentioned wearing women's sneakers because they have small feet. I couldn't even if I wanted to, lol. I wear a men's 10.5-11. Friends tease me, saying it's a good thing I'm Butch because if I had to try to cram my feet into girly shoes I'd be in BIG trouble. By the way, my use of "girly" is in no way intended to be dismissive or demeaning. I have huge affection and admiration for things girly when they are used, worn and expressed by others for whom it is fitting.

I think it's possible I'm rambling, so, back to the point. Most of the time I don't give much energy to thinking about being female. When I am reminded about it because of choices I have to make, it almost surprises me. Is that weird? It's not a negative experience, just a little strange. While my personal definition of Butch is one of female masculinity, existing within or without proximity to Femme, it is certainly the case that when I am around Femme energy I feel even more Butch. Considering my own take on Butch, one might surmise, then, that feeling more so would also engender more feelings of femaleness, but I don't find that to be the case. I suppose I'm wondering if my experience is unique. I cannot imagine it is.

[TruTexan]

Originally Posted by Ascot

Thanks to those of you who have jumped in.

I think my referencing the purchasing of tampons served to derail where I hope this thread will go. No doubt that activity is uncomfortable, gross or even anxiety causing for some. The reason I mentioned it, however, was simply as an example in my recent history of having to choose a product specifically because I am female. I realize that might make it seem as though I'm inclined to lose sight of that fact, but as I wrote in the original post, it's more that I just rarely think about it. I live in a part of the country, (north of Seattle) where "Ma'am" is not widely used, unlike when I lived in North Carolina where it served as an almost daily reminder. Here, too, it seems as though people accept others as just people. My experience has largely been that my reception is the same from men and women. Maybe that's the case because of how I make my way in the world. I don't know. I can't speak to that anymore than theoretically.

My talking about wearing a bra was only to show the distinction between that and every other single thing I wear. As I do that every day, while it is inherently a female article of clothing, I don't even think about it that way anymore. It's just part of my daily dressing routine. Someone mentioned wearing women's sneakers because they have small feet. I couldn't even if I wanted to, lol. I wear a men's 10.5-11. Friends tease me, saying it's a good thing I'm Butch because if I had to try to cram my feet into girly shoes I'd be in BIG trouble. By the way, my use of "girly" is in no way intended to be dismissive or demeaning. I have huge affection and admiration for things girly when they are used, worn and expressed by others for whom it is fitting.

I think it's possible I'm rambling, so, back to the point. Most of the time I don't give much energy to thinking about being female. When I am reminded about it because of choices I have to make, it almost surprises me. Is that weird? It's not a negative experience, just a little strange. While my personal definition of Butch is one of female masculinity, existing within or without proximity to Femme, it is certainly the case that when I am around Femme energy I feel even more Butch. Considering my own take on Butch, one might surmise, then, that feeling more so would also engender more feelings of femaleness, but I don't find that to be the case. I suppose I'm wondering if my experience is unique. I cannot imagine it is.

Ascot, you're not alone in how you feel. I don't sit around thinking about my being female, I just am and I accept it. There are times when I am reminded that I am and it makes me think about it and I often go ohh yeah I am. LOL
My butch is female masculine energy, not girly by any means. When I'm around a femme or femmes, I feel even more butch because it's the femme energy that tends to bring my own energy more alive. Kinda feels really good too. I don't think it engenders more feelings of femaleness within myself either, in fact I think it's just brings out the butch in me more.
And to let you know, my women's tennis shoes are NOT girly either. I don't do girly things. LOL I know you meant nothing by that, I just wanted to clarify that myself. LOL

I hope this thread keeps going, I find it interesting .

[Ascot]

I'm so relieved to know your tennis shoes aren't girly! Thanks for adding to the thread.

[JDeere]

I don't think your experience is unique nor do I see your posts as rambling. I have a feeling more folks will come along, more butches, per say to put more input on here.

[BullDog]

I would say that I think of myself more as being butch than I do female. For me personally, butch is rooted in female (I know it isn't for every single butch), so it's kind of just understood for me.

The examples that have been brought up in this thread- buying tampons, bras, clothing, etc.- for me these are situations where I think being female gets disrupted somewhat for many butches, because society really isn't set up for the way we do female or woman. So I don't think it makes me feel more female or more woman, but just is a reminder that I don't fit society's ideas of what female and woman are.

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

Being around femmes definitely heightens my awareness of being butch. It does around other butches as well, but in a different way. For me it's about energy. I don't feel more butch, but yes my senses are heightened.

Certain activities heighten my sense of being butch also. Going to the barbershop and getting my hair cut does. I know not all butches go to barbershops or have short hair. That doesn't make me more butch than another butch. It's just the experience for me is butch, when I go out get my hair cut, go out for a burger afterwards. It's like my butch spa day. I feel quite butch when I am working out or playing sports. So there are certain activities that heighten my awareness also.

I'm not sure if any of this is what you are trying to discuss Ascot, but great thread.

[Kobi]

If I am reading this correctly, I am going to be presenting a different side.

I am an atypical female. I like and embrace my femaleness. It never sneaks up on me nor do I have to be reminded of it. It is very much a part of who I am.

With the exemption of male running shoes (last longer) and Joe Boxer socks (which I love the feel of), I shop for female clothing in stores catering to women.

I dont freak out when I have to buy products related to having a female body or have tests/exams for females. It is what it is.

I found a bra I like so I am fond of buying them in assorted colors and patterns.

Im not big on scents and prefer any soaps, lotions, shampoos to give a fresh smell and a refreshing feeling - dial, ivory, suave products do just fine. I dont understand skin care products but do peruse the Estee Lauder site when I am ordering stuff for my Mother.

I havent noticed any difference in how I feel about me around femmes. I tend to prefer those who are partial to a female partner who appreciates her own femaleness.

Occasionally, I run into something I dont quite expect. This week my gf bought a Kate Spade handbag and informed me my outfit had to fit the bag. Im not sure what this means but I am presuming it means my sweats and tees will not mingle with said bag in public. In private, I am gathering said bag will have its own shrine in the closet.

Ascot are you asking if certain products made for different sexes enhance butchness or compliment butchness, or detract from butchness?

[Ascot]

I found myself nodding whilst reading your post, Bulldog. I definitely relate to and agree with your comments about how it feels to be around other butches, going to the barbershop, etc. I think I actually chuckled aloud at "butch spa day". That's the beauty of being Butch, isn't it, that there is such a panoply of permutations on the theme.

Kobi, you say that you think yourself atypical (or did you mean to type "a typical"?) because you like and embrace your femaleness. At least that's how I read what you wrote. I think your are, in fact, in the majority. I neither dislike nor disavow mine. I wasn't asking about certain products enhancing, complimenting or detracting from anything. More, I was speaking to what one experiences when faced with choices that remind, reinforce, reiterate etc., particularly if one isn't as inclined to think about their femaleness all the time because for whatever reason it isn't in the forefront of their mind. I too am partial to women who want a female partner; it's pretty much my own definition of lesbianism. Good luck with the Kate Spade bag, lol.

[Virago]

Focusing on Ascot's original question: "I am curious to hear what others experience in regards to being reminded of one's femaleness while inhabiting butch skin. Is it no big deal? Does it suck for you? Is it just kind of weird or a little annoying? Does it make you want to leap with joy?"

I am in the same direction as Kobi. My femaleness never sneaks up on me. I am female. I did go through a period of time where I considered transitioning, and struggled with the decision for about 10 years (and ironically was my most feminine during that time...I guess as a balance to my inside thoughts).

I've seen our community go through many changes during the decades I've been with it. In the eighties in New York we were NOT allowed to be Butch or Femme, but all just to the left or right of androgenous--everything equal. I mean Everything. Then Butch and Femme started to emerge strong again. we set up our own codes of conduct and felt the pressure to act a certain way (butches wore short hair, femmes wore heels). During that time I was not in balance with myself...so during that time Yes, I would be surprised at my feminine self when I felt butch inside. But now, our community has gotten so much more accepting of difference, and that has helped many of us, myself especially, accept our own differences.

So now, I do on occasion dress in a dress (a rare occasion, but it can happen). I do wear mascara and eyeliner (what can I say? I like how I look with it. I'm a Maybelline Butch ) But I am definitely butch. I am not surprised by my femaleness nor is it annoying. It also does not make me leap for joy. It just is who I am. Me. Maybelline Butch with longish hair!

[Ascot]

An interesting bit of history, Virago. Thanks for that. For many, many years I had long hair and was known to sling on some eyeliner from time to time. I get it. I feel I should clarify that my being female is not something that I ever feel ambushed by. Not once in my life have I ever had a "Holy fuck, I'm a woman!" moment. Nor am I anything akin to repulsed by it. Years ago a gay boy friend of mine said something that rather broke my heart. "When I was younger I used to pride myself on being beautiful, much like a young woman. Now, I'm aging like an old man." The way he said it, it seemed as though he was somewhat surprised by that turn of events. That's not what it's like for me. (Although in my more cantankerous moments, I might actually seem like I'm aging like an old man, lol.) I wish I could come up with an analogy that would precisely speak to how it feels to me. I think I'll sleep on it.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I think I am most consciously aware of being female and woman in terms of women's issues, feminism, etc.- more from a political standpoint, since I feel my gender is butch. So unequal pay, sexism, etc.- those are my issues too.

I totally feel like this. I see myself as a woman and female and as someone who stands in solidarity with other women.

Half the world's population is at the mercy of the geographical birth lottery to determine what type of inequality they will experience in life, whether they will be subjected to being owned, tortured at the whim of men, forced to marry while still a child, not allowed an education or simply do more work for less money while the control of their bodies is being legislated away from them. What happens to all women diminishes me as a woman and as a human being. I must push against this always.

I am a woman in the biological sense for certain, but even more in the political sense and the personal will forever be the political in my eyes. So regardless of my female masculinity or my masculine look, I will always be standing on the female side of the male/female equation. Because of this I am ever and always aware that I am a woman and that all the things that happen to women could easily happen to me, as the old mantra of feminism taught me, we can all be battered and raped. So the understanding that I am a woman is always in the forefront of my mind.

That being said I am also aware that I am not your average woman. I don't do woman/female like society expects. I am a butch, a masculine female and that is all I can be, to be anything else would be a lie. And I'm happy with that. So in that sense I don't think of myself as being a women or as female.

I get that sounds contradictory but I am happy enough living a contradiction. I have no trouble holding two opposing ideas. So while I never think about myself as being a woman, I never forget that I am a woman and damn proud of it.

When I shop for clothes or personal care items, or really anything at all, I have the whole store to choose from, I have everything to choose from. I am not limited by anything but my taste. I buy men's clothes and I buy women's clothes. I buy what I like regardless of what department it is placed in. I guess more than not thinking about whether I am a woman or not, I just don't think about the sex/gender of inanimate objects. I buy what I want.

[BullDog]

MT, I find myself nodding with so many of your posts. Of all the ones I have read over the years, this one definitely resonates as much as any of them.

Yes, the political is deeply personal for me. I too believe that all things that happen to women could easily happen to me, and that is one of the main reasons why I stand in solidarity with other women, even if much of the woman/female experience feels foreign to me or something I have never experienced. Not to mention the fact that we live in a very sexist world that needs to be stood up against and changed.

In most ways I do feel "all guy." I feel I have strong masculine energy, appearance, outlook and interests. I do have body dysmorphia, especially in the chest area, so the female aspect is not clear cut for me. At the same time, I was not born a male and not socialized as one. I am more connected with other women on a social, political and historical level- and for me those aspects are deeply personal.

[Ascot]

I've been thinking a lot about this. For as long as I can remember, probably longer even, because my mother was also a feminist, I have been conscious of and concerned about women's issues; socioeconomic, political, reproductive even though that didn't apply to me, per se. I support women owned businesses, I factor in women's rights whenever I vote. I've never lost sight of the fact that I am a woman and the import and precariousness of that in our world.

In my initial post used I "woman" and "female" interchangeably, and that was probably a mistake or at least misleading. I understand how that might seem strange to some, because after all, aren't they ostensibly the same thing? For me that's not necessarily the case. Maybe it breaks down along sex/gender lines. I identify my gender as Butch and that is considerably rooted in masculinity, even within the parameters of my definition of it which includes the word "female". I sometimes refer to myself as a guy, "one of the guys" "a boys' night out", etc. I consider myself a bachelor and want eventually to be a husband. While I have no desire whatsoever to be male and I don't grapple with body dysmorphia, my presentation is decidedly masculine of center. I think that's why the occasional, out of the blue reminder of my femaleness can catch me unawares even as I continue to be involved with women's causes.

[TruTexan]

I see myself as just a butch and I'm lesbian. I partner only with lesbian femmes that want a female butch. I'm female, live like a female, worked in most of my employment years in male oriented jobs because I can and liked them, and I wear men's clothing. I see myself as "one of the boys" with guy friends and other butch friends. I don't see myself or identify as male by any means. Butch as a gender is new to me as is masculine of center.
I'm 51 so a lot of the new stuff is hard for me to understand at times, and I have no friends that see themselves that way in r/t.
I see sex as either male or female and often times in my head it's still interchangeable with gender roles. I guess its how I was brought up, or how I understand things, not sure.
I do know that Butch is a noun and an adjective to me. It describes who I am inside and out. I also support women and their struggles in life and equality as well as the right to do with their bodies as they deem fit.