Lesbian Cougar Video--funny or not?

[NJFemmie]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

Most satires will always be offensive to someone. I find that when people get the most offended is when they feel like what is being said is true about them or it's something that they don't want to deal with.

I think I have a good sense of humor and I happen to love satire, but I did not find this amusing one bit. I found it offensive simply because it's offensive, not because I'm guilty of it or have some sort of denial on the subject. Your statement is um, dangerous to imply regarding the general public.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

*sigh* My post wasn't about the young drunk girl getting taken advantage of it was about the whole lesbians being made fun of thing. If you really knew me, you would know that I don't play that shit either but I don't think that was the video's focus it was to make fun of cougars that just so happen to be lesbians.

Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify this Organic, we see it differently and that's cool.

Thank you again for taking the time to explain

[T-Rex]

In my head, it breaks down like this:

• Lesbians portrayed as unattractive stereotypes
• Lesbians portrayed as desperate for sex
• Lesbians portrayed as sexual predators
• Lesbians portrayed as only being able to obtain sex from the drunkenly impaired

And then:

• Young women being treated as sexual playthings
• Young women being preyed upon
• Young women "deserving" what they get because they got drunk
• Young women being coerced (forced) and being mocked for it

I understand satire. I do. And irony and sarcasm as well. The video reeks to me of unbridled sexism, misogyny, agism and has an unhealthy undercurrent of "She asked for it" and "She deserves what she gets".

Oddly, and probably because I'm a mother, the portrayal of the young women bothered me a little bit more. Because, while I do not have a daughter, I really believe that STILL we often do not raise our women to value themselves and know their worth in this world beyond being playthings and fucktoys. If you want to be a plaything or a fucktoy, fine, but be in control of it and choose that role, don't default to it or have it chosen for you.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

I think I have a good sense of humor and I happen to love satire, but I did not find this amusing one bit. I found it offensive simply because it's offensive, not because I'm guilty of it or have some sort of denial on the subject. Your statement is um, dangerous to imply regarding the general public.

You are correct. I can see how that would be offensive. In my head I was thinking of it as a a homophobic person that is afraid of their own feelings but it doesn't apply to this. My bad.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by June

In my head, it breaks down like this:

• Lesbians portrayed as unattractive stereotypes
• Lesbians portrayed as desperate for sex
• Lesbians portrayed as sexual predators
• Lesbians portrayed as only being able to obtain sex from the drunkenly impaired

And then:

• Young women being treated as sexual playthings
• Young women being preyed upon
• Young women "deserving" what they get because they got drunk
• Young women being coerced (forced) and being mocked for it

I understand satire. I do. And irony and sarcasm as well. The video reeks to me of unbridled sexism, misogyny, agism and has an unhealthy undercurrent of "She asked for it" and "She deserves what she gets".

Oddly, and probably because I'm a mother, the portrayal of the young women bothered me a little bit more. Because, while I do not have a daughter, I really believe that STILL we often do not raise our women to value themselves and know their worth in this world beyond being playthings and fucktoys. If you want to be a plaything or a fucktoy, fine, but be in control of it and choose that role, don't default to it or have it chosen for you.

That's a good point about the college girls. They are portrayed as fucktoys. They are drunk and to be fucked by whomever (even older lesbians). That's actually probably the most misogynist thing in the whole video- more so than than the lesbian stereotypes.

[Gayla]

Joe has been on my shit list for 2 months and a day. I'm not the least bit surprised he posted this.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by softness

wait..let me mull this over...its ok for them to be satiracal about lesbians, cougars, predation, etc but its wrong for me to be offended?

Except it wasn't really a satire about lesbians, cougars or predation. If this is, in fact, a satirical work (and even so, could easily be transformed into something it was not intended to be), then it is not being satirical about lesbians, cougars and predation, but about those who perpetuate misrepresentations and stereotypes. It does not accurately represent lesbians, because it may very well not mean to, if, in fact, it is a satire highlight the existence of misrepresentation and stereotypes...I repeat: the target is not lesbians in such a case. I keep bolding this because the responses to what I've written continued to be offended responses that do not correlate at all with what I've actually written.

and FYI, HOW I said it is perfectly in line with how they will understand it. It takes the politeness out of the discourse. When it comes to rape, I dont need to be polite.

I am fascinated that you think you can come in and ask me was this really necessary. Obviously. Or I wouldnt have said it...

If it was necessary for you, then what exactly do you think continuing the cycle achieves? I am not talking about politeness. I am talking about perpetuating a certain type of behaviour: stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. If you want to be rude, go ahead, but why do you see fit to bring one's sex into the equation? What do you achieve beyond venting your own anger? It certainly doesn't change anything. If we ever want this kind of thing to stop, it should start with us.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Except it wasn't really a satire about lesbians, cougars or predation. If this is, in fact, a satirical work (and even so, could easily be transformed into something it was not intended to be), then it is not being satirical about lesbians, cougars and predation, but about those who perpetuate misrepresentations and stereotypes. It does not accurately represent lesbians, because it may very well not mean to, if, in fact, it is a satire highlight the existence of misrepresentation and stereotypes...I repeat: the target is not lesbians in such a case. I keep bolding this because the responses to what I've written continued to be offended responses that do not correlate at all with what I've actually written.



If it was necessary for you, then what exactly do you think continuing the cycle achieves? I am not talking about politeness. I am talking about perpetuating a certain type of behaviour: stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. If you want to be rude, go ahead, but why do you see fit to bring one's sex into the equation? What do you achieve beyond venting your own anger? It certainly doesn't change anything. If we ever want this kind of thing to stop, it should start with us.

So you see nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women (among other things) but chastize someone that you think is doing that here?

[Miss_Tia]

you said "stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. "

wait...are you even suggesting I am doing this because I simply dont agree with them? I dont agree with the catholic church on their abortion stand. I dont publicly rebuke them...

I publicly rebuke this video because someone somewhere has to say to whoever is watching this "OH MY F&#$&@*# GOD THIS IS NOT EVEN FUNNY!!!!!"

and why? Because there are impressionable minds out there that are on overkill from the onslaught of horrid examples of "isms" that are passed around in our culture under the guise of humour...

[TenderKnight]

I have been reading this thread and I just want to post my opinion here.. (again)

I just want to state that I don't find rape amusing. I don't find the fact that older lesbians are being protrayed as predators funny.. That being said, when I was just coming out, I did have a 42 year old lesbian hit on me and then she played me like a drum, I was 18.. Some do it, not all. THAT being said..

I don't think that anyone here thinks that this video is truthful, I think that some folks got it and some folks didn't.. I agree with honeybarbara, it could have been written a LOT better and it missed the mark.. *shrugs* I guess I just have a fear here that this is hitting close to home for a lot of folks, and I can also see that some of the past "battles" can be seen as rearing up again here.

I am not a lesbian and I ID as male. Maybe this can be seen as a reason of why I'm not offended? I don't know.. All I can speak from is from where I am coming from.. I also want to say that I'm not going to spread this video around because it CAN show people that have no clue what lesbians are about (that sounds like lesbians have an agenda, they don't, we're all humans here), and that it can become something REALLY ugly very quickly..

OK, I'm done.. Thank you all for posting here.. I don't see a right or a wrong, just people that find diffrent things funny or offensive.

-Tony

[Miss_Tia]

omg...TK's post just made me realize why this video is so offensive to me.

when I was 16, my driver's ed teacher preyed on me.

god I didnt put two and two together until now...

this is SOO not funny NOW...

[T-Rex]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

Except it wasn't really a satire about lesbians, cougars or predation. If this is, in fact, a satirical work (and even so, could easily be transformed into something it was not intended to be), then it is not being satirical about lesbians, cougars and predation, but about those who perpetuate misrepresentations and stereotypes. It does not accurately represent lesbians, because it may very well not mean to, if, in fact, it is a satire highlight the existence of misrepresentation and stereotypes...I repeat: the target is not lesbians in such a case. I keep bolding this because the responses to what I've written continued to be offended responses that do not correlate at all with what I've actually written.

Right. Except the audience on *this* site is heavily populated by Lesbians. I don't think it's so outrageous that even while we understand satire, we are also (some of us) taking this very personally and applying it to how "we" as women and lesbians are unfairly perceived in this world. How we are or have been treated. How we are portrayed to the general population as "too ugly to get a man", etc. And then when you add the sexual predator cherry on top, it's not hard to understand how this feels very personal to a lot of us.



If it was necessary for you, then what exactly do you think continuing the cycle achieves? I am not talking about politeness. I am talking about perpetuating a certain type of behaviour: stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. If you want to be rude, go ahead, but why do you see fit to bring one's sex into the equation? What do you achieve beyond venting your own anger? It certainly doesn't change anything. If we ever want this kind of thing to stop, it should start with us.

Ender - I disagree with you on this, and while we don't know each other, I do want to preface this by saying that I often really enjoy your posts and your way of engaging and talking about things. However, I think it's important to think about why this may not affect you, personally in the same way as some of us.

If Female and/or Lesbian do not resonate with you in the same way, you may not relate to things visually or even viscerally in the same way that those of us who do very much identify as women and Lesbians do.

"Ones Sex" is already in the equation because the actual video is very sexually charged. There is coersive sexual intent in that video. No one is being emasculated in that video, and frankly, I think it is a womans right, and a Lesbians right to respond in anger if that's what she is feeling to the makers of the video. To do otherwise would seem to be the same thing as "Sitting down and shutting up" And I call bullshit on that. If they have the right to make a mockery of women and Lesbians, then they/we/us have a right also to express our anger, outrage or even ambivalence in any way we choose to do so.

I do not appreciate someone who is not female or woman ID'd coming in here and trying to tell those who are how they should feel. It smacks of telling "us" to lighten the fuck up. And that's not your place. The OP asked how we feel about it, and we are saying it. That doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, of course. If you think it's funny, or the best goddamn piece of satire you've seen in a long time, then say that. But on a website such as this, be prepared for pushback.

And I'm not mad, I'm vehement here.

June

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by BullDog

So you see nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women (among other things) but chastize someone that you think is doing that here?

I get the feeling you aren't actually reading what I've written when you accuse me of "seeing nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women." If this is a satire, and I have good reason to believe it is, it is not attempting to strip women of their dignity (therefore, it is not about me making light of women or men's dignities). In fact, it is attempting to do the exact contrary by highlighting the existence of this tendency (of stripping women of their dignity) in society. Just because something displays a certain event does not mean it desires to perpetuate it. It can very well be a commentary on it, and where we are as a society.

For example, in Voltaire's Candide you have Pangloss who preaches theodicy, and no matter what ridiculously violent and terrible things happen to Candide and his party, Pangloss continues to claim that it is "the best of all possible outcomes." Is it because Voltaire supports Leibnitz's philosophy? No! It is entirely to the contrary: he stages theodicy in the forefront precisely because he disagrees with it and perceives it as a danger to society (thus allowing for little upwards class movement, since it supports the notion that the lower classes should stay where they because their current station is the "best of all possible worlds.") There are horrible scenes of rape, dismemberment and so on that are made light of, and not because Voltaire supports such things, but precisely because he does not. The violent and horrific things that occur to the party, and the fact that it is being made light of is the contrast. The overexaggeration of horrific events is needed in order to get the author's real point across.

I'm not claiming the creator of this video is anywhere near approaching the genius of Voltaire, but it appears that he is taking a similar approach in attempting to ridicule something by placing it in the forefront. And that something is not lesbians, but the stereotypes surrounding them that are commonly used in popular culture. It "makes light of" in order to make people aware of what they themselves may very well be perpetuating. Could it have been better written? Yes, but just because the creator was not a particularly gifted writer is not reason to claim that he was attempting to demean women, when that doesn't appear to have been the intention.

To use the Borat example again: Sacha Baron Cohen is not demeaning or ridiculing Jews when his character, Borat, makes anti-semitic comments. He is trying to make people aware and accountable for what continues to occur within modern society. The fact that he takes the role of an "ignorant Kazakh" even further plays into American perspectives on non-western nations, when Americans themselves are guilty of precisely the same behaviour.

As for my comments to softness, please explain to me what such comments achieve and why it is ever right to attempt to humiliate someone because of their sex/gender/race/ethnicity/age etc.? What does it achieve? If you have a logical argument against someone then state it. Don't turn it into an emotional maelstrom that may very well just get otherwise important issues ignored. I haven't seen anyone explain that to me yet. And since when is the whole eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth method ever effective in getting your message across in a logical and coherent manner?

[honeybarbara]

Originally Posted by June

In my head, it breaks down like this:

• Lesbians portrayed as unattractive stereotypes
• Lesbians portrayed as desperate for sex
• Lesbians portrayed as sexual predators
• Lesbians portrayed as only being able to obtain sex from the drunkenly impaired

And then:

• Young women being treated as sexual playthings
• Young women being preyed upon
• Young women "deserving" what they get because they got drunk
• Young women being coerced (forced) and being mocked for it

I understand satire. I do. And irony and sarcasm as well. The video reeks to me of unbridled sexism, misogyny, agism and has an unhealthy undercurrent of "She asked for it" and "She deserves what she gets".

Oddly, and probably because I'm a mother, the portrayal of the young women bothered me a little bit more. Because, while I do not have a daughter, I really believe that STILL we often do not raise our women to value themselves and know their worth in this world beyond being playthings and fucktoys. If you want to be a plaything or a fucktoy, fine, but be in control of it and choose that role, don't default to it or have it chosen for you.

yeah but june, if I showed you Nighty Night, you could also say

"mentally unwell welsh people should never be gimps"
"it's not fun to be vaginally abused by a fish - and a tuna at that - against your will by an older woman"
"someone trying to seduce an 11 year old boy is very offensive - that's a pedo"
"that women is representing all older women who are sexually promiscuous and makeing us all into serial killers"

I could go on. the difference is Nightly Night is incredibly well written so the joke is actually funny rather than a poorly written piece of satire that obviously didn't meet it's mark and wound up offending tons of people in it's failing.

I personally think if it had been well written, it could have been hilarious. It wasn't. So it sucked and looked offensive.

[BullDog]

Ender I am not going to argue with you about satire.

See June's post. I don't appreciate a twenty something year old male trying to tell someone who has been a lesbian for over 30 years (that would be me) how I should interpret this video. You have a lot to learn about sexism and misogyny.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So you can't see how it promotes and makes light of predatory behaviour against women?

*I* and I get this is me and not everyone else can't get past the oogieness of watching someone sober rub all over a drunk girl, that shit isn't funny at ALL.

I don't know if cause I have daughters and I hear it happens, or because I want to scream when I see women being demeaned and dismissed and ffs ridiculed for the sake of a ha ha.

It really really makes me want to scream when I see this at anytime.

I may be a prude

[honeybarbara]

Oh I dunno... I've been raped while drunk a few times and I get that they aren't promoting it. You aren't supposed to emulate what you satirise.

*shrug*

[T-Rex]

I just want to say that I don't think Enders age is relevant anymore than mine is. I don't care for agism in either direction, having now, at my age been a victim of both.

"You're too young to know"

Is the same to me as:

"What do you know? You're old"

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess I am to sensitive about it to find it funny.

No sense in beating a dead horse everyone has their opinion

Thanks for the dialogues!

[EnderD_503]

June, thank you for you response. I really appreciate it. I hope you don't mind if I respond in turn.

I want to make clear that I am not attempting to tell anyone how to think, but, instead, attempting to prompt people to think beyond their initial emotional reaction. I do not think this is a great work of satire, but I also realise that the author is likely not actually trying to take a swipe at lesbians or degrade women in any way. In fact, it seems the contrary is the point. That is what I'm trying to get through, and which I feel is contuously ignored. If people truly understand what satire is and how this video may very well be attempting to achieve it, then why not acknowledge that instead of calling the creator out on all sorts of things that don't appear to be true?

I also want to make clear that I am not telling anyone to lighten up (in fact, the point of the satire may very well be for society to get serious). In your final paragraph you seem to imply, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this video was funny to me and that I thought it was a good example of satire. This is incorrect, and, in fact, I stated earlier that I did not believe the video to be particularly funny. Additionally, the purpose of a satire that deals with such dark subject matter is not necessary to be "funny-ha-ha," but to point out that darkness by overexaggerating it, and yes, sometimes making light of the horrific. Believe it or not, such works and the contrast they present have been pivotal in changing social perspectives.

I am not telling people not to be angry, but to try and think past that initial anger. I have been insulted countless times in my life by a variety of things until I began to ask myself why I felt anger and insult, and what that anger actually achieves. Is it helping me attain my end to be insulted? I have found it effective to actually analyse the situation instead of lashing out in anger. I think such an approach is a good route to take if we wish to change society and it's perspectives on sex/gender. The more one continues on the path to logical debate and thought, the more irrational hatred and discrimination crumble. I don't believe we defeat such discrimination or humiliation by participating in it ourselves. I think this approach could be really beneficial to this community, and I'm sorry if that seems like an attack. I truly believe that it is a good idea to look inward as well as outward, and not only for things that we typically look for or recognise.

If for some reason the moderators don't feel my continued participation in this thread is desireable, I would be more than happy to make my own thread that addresses the issue. If my words are not desireable on this forum, then, well, I guess I'll just have to stick to my own writing. But I thoroughly believe that without self-criticism we threaten to become exactly that which we despise.

My thanks again, June. My additional thanks to all those who have participated in this discussion with me.

- Ender

Originally Posted by June

Ender - I disagree with you on this, and while we don't know each other, I do want to preface this by saying that I often really enjoy your posts and your way of engaging and talking about things. However, I think it's important to think about why this may not affect you, personally in the same way as some of us.

If Female and/or Lesbian do not resonate with you in the same way, you may not relate to things visually or even viscerally in the same way that those of us who do very much identify as women and Lesbians do.

"Ones Sex" is already in the equation because the actual video is very sexually charged. There is coersive sexual intent in that video. No one is being emasculated in that video, and frankly, I think it is a womans right, and a Lesbians right to respond in anger if that's what she is feeling to the makers of the video. To do otherwise would seem to be the same thing as "Sitting down and shutting up" And I call bullshit on that. If they have the right to make a mockery of women and Lesbians, then they/we/us have a right also to express our anger, outrage or even ambivalence in any way we choose to do so.

I do not appreciate someone who is not female or woman ID'd coming in here and trying to tell those who are how they should feel. It smacks of telling "us" to lighten the fuck up. And that's not your place. The OP asked how we feel about it, and we are saying it. That doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, of course. If you think it's funny, or the best goddamn piece of satire you've seen in a long time, then say that. But on a website such as this, be prepared for pushback.

And I'm not mad, I'm vehement here.

June