"Traditional" Masculinity in Today's Society

[always2late]

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

I was wondering if it would be possible to open a discussion on this premise. I am especially interested in the opinions of our butch/FTM community, and anyone else who has struggled with the idea of gender and the "traditional" roles prescribed by society. What are your views as to what constitutes masculine attributes and/or "personality"? And have you found your ideas challenged by family, friends, significant others, or society in general?

P.S. Came back to edit and add this....for the femmes...what do you look for in a partner with regard to masculinity? What are your ideas and/or preferences in this area?

[julieisafemme]

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

[Apocalipstic]

I think times have way changed and many attributes that used to be seen as "masculine" can apply to anyone now.

It really freaked me out when I realized I was a Lesbian and people kept telling me how feminine I am...growing up everyone was always all over me trying to get me to BE more feminine.

I like a partner who is not way set into being entirely masculine in every way. One, because we are both women and two, because in many ways even though I look pretty damn girly, I am not, especially emotionally and sexually.

Now, if you look at us on the outside, then yes we LOOK very traditionally boy/girl.

edited to add: I am in a relationship with a woman, I am not saying that everyone on this site is a woman, many are not. :)

[GentleAndro]

As for what is considered "masculine" that is indeed a sticky wicket. So much of what is defined as "masculine" is influenced by family and society and culture so I can't speak from anything but my own experience.

I was raised by a quiet man who treated everyone with courtesy and respect, but women a bit more so by opening doors, paying the bill, etc. As such, I picked that up. Because I'm a woman, I intrinsically value the strength, independence and determination found in women. Being born a woman, I understand firsthand what it means to be invisible or passed over as a result of "male privilege." If I had been born a male, or self-identify as a male, I may not fully understand these concepts on a deep seated level. As such, I think that influences how I treat women with my "masculine" nature.

With all that said, I do find that I naturally have many traits that society deems "masculine" (whether right or wrong.) I'm logical, not much of a talker except those close to me, a "fixer" a "protector" and a "provider." Those are all comfortable for me. However, other areas that society deems "masculine" I'm loathe to embrace simply because I identify more as "butch" than as "femme" such as : aggressive, cocky, brash, a womanizer, etc. Note that I don't assume that to identify as "butch" one is any of those things, but from my experience over the years, I've witness many "butch" women (especially in the early coming out years) look at their male counterparts and choose to automatically demonstrate all behaviors and dress (positive and negative) simply as the "easy" way to seem more masculine rather than look within themselves to define their own demonstration of their masculine traits.

[Gemme]

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

P.S. Came back to edit and add this....for the femmes...what do you look for in a partner with regard to masculinity? What are your ideas and/or preferences in this area?

For me, I need to be with someone that exhibits some of the more traditional traits and actions of masculinity that you are probably attracted to yourself.

I like the physical manifestation of masculinity as I see it, such as shorter hair, callused hands, deeper voice, and masculine dress.

It's not only because it's what I like to see and feel, but the more masculine my partner presents, the more feminine I feel. Some femmes view themselves the same no matter who they are with. I am not like that. I need that balance.

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

For myself, it is similar to OFOS butches in behavior and mannerisms and looks, yes.

As for what is considered "masculine" that is indeed a sticky wicket. So much of what is defined as "masculine" is influenced by family and society and culture so I can't speak from anything but my own experience.

I was raised by a quiet man who treated everyone with courtesy and respect, but women a bit more so by opening doors, paying the bill, etc. As such, I picked that up. Because I'm a woman, I intrinsically value the strength, independence and determination found in women. Being born a woman, I understand firsthand what it means to be invisible or passed over as a result of "male privilege." If I had been born a male, or self-identify as a male, I may not fully understand these concepts on a deep seated level. As such, I think that influences how I treat women with my "masculine" nature.

With all that said, I do find that I naturally have many traits that society deems "masculine" (whether right or wrong.) I'm logical, not much of a talker except those close to me, a "fixer" a "protector" and a "provider." Those are all comfortable for me. However, other areas that society deems "masculine" I'm loathe to embrace simply because I identify more as "butch" than as "femme" such as : aggressive, cocky, brash, a womanizer, etc. Note that I don't assume that to identify as "butch" one is any of those things, but from my experience over the years, I've witness many "butch" women (especially in the early coming out years) look at their male counterparts and choose to automatically demonstrate all behaviors and dress (positive and negative) simply as the "easy" way to seem more masculine rather than look within themselves to define their own demonstration of their masculine traits.

I loved this post as a whole, but especially the underlined parts.

I love the representation of masculinity, but not when it turns into a WWF free for all. The brassness and crude behaviors can take a hike for all I care. Please don't posture. It's not pretty and it's not productive.

The other behaviors and traits that you described are lovely, though.

[Blade]

I'm pretty stereotypical in the masculine attributes department, except I'm not a womanizer. A huge flirt, yeah probably so but not a womanizer. Though I am cocky, some femmes like that others don't, I know when to tone it down. I can be aggressive, but am normally pretty laid back. Besides those things yep I'd say my masculine attributes stand pretty tall in the realm of things. And I prefer typically feminine attributes in my femme as well.

[always2late]

I am not sure I know what traditional masculinity is. Is it like OFOS butches? Is it a nostalgia for another era or time?

I am, in many respects, a product of my upbringing and culture. I was raised in a traditional Italian home, one where gender "roles" were very clearly defined. I suppose, for better or worse, that has influenced my ideas as to what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine" behavior. That is not to say that I am rigid or intolerant, or that I think anyone should be forced into a role they don't assign to themselves...its just that for me, personally, I find myself more attracted to partners who exhibit those traditional traits.

[little man]

i think that the changes that are being "forced" on men/masculinity are a function of social evolution. nothing remains the same forever. i'm sure that the brand of masculinity that was prevalent in the 40's would look positively sissified to men of earlier times...say the mid 19th century type of masculinity. times change and people change with them, or they perish. i think that with the advances in equality for women, men have felt less inclined to be as chivalrous as was once the norm. evolution or just pissed off? the reason doesn't matter so much as the end result. i think we are seeing a response to men not being the sole support of families, women having careers outside the home and, in general, becoming even marginally more equal to their male counterparts. i think, in part, men resent women not "needing" them for as much as they once did...although that means a lighter work load for men in general. perhaps the resentment is based in feeling less valued? (talk about your shoe on the other foot)

i was raised by my grandparents. the values they instilled in me are those of folks who grew up in a rural, less educated, depression era. i find that my standards for behavior (for myself and others) is based in those values. personally, i think women are the most magnificent creatures on the planet. being raised female, i can see a bit of both sides here...i'm not inclined to erase the first part of my life to live this part of it. i understand being undervalued, considered "less than". it has been my experience that women are some of the strongest, most formidable people there are. i don't have the resentment of women that many born men have...i lived too long in a female role to do that.

my grandmother always told me that good manners never go out of style. she was right. i was raised to be mannerly, considerate and courteous. my gender has nothing to do with exhibiting those qualities. am i masculine? ask anyone who knows me in real time. even the guys i know now think i'm a cool dude...and i'm not shy about saying i enjoy cooking or that i'm good with laundry or that i want to try my hand at quilting. i like to think that i'm just a well mannered, well rounded man.

[always2late]

little man you raise a very good point about the attributes of masculinity, and what is considered the "norm" evolving over time, and reflecting the times we live in. Thank you for your input :)

[Hack]

I was raised mostly by my paternal grandfather who was a five-star gentleman -- impeccable manners, impeccable taste in everything. I grew up emulating him in many ways. I open doors, hold out chairs, stand up when a girl gets up or enters a room, take off my ballcap for the national anthem, the whole deal. I like to pay the tab, but was softened up a bit last year while spending time with a European woman who found my manners horribly old-fashioned.

I was also raised around very old school Polish-Catholic uncles on the other side of the family, who were rowdy, loud, whistled at pretty girls, yet would take out anybody with a punch who disrespected their mom or their sisters.

My life is a study in dichotomy.

I've worked hard the last few years to better understand and to better communicate with women. I've learned to express myself when I am comfortable doing so, and sometimes when I am not comfortable doing so. It's really hard to get over those stoic German roots. I'm a writer by trade, and I often find it easier to discuss my feelings on paper (and sometimes in email, though I loathe it as a medium).

I think manners are taught, along with respect. Sometimes, though, we pick up bad habits of passive-aggressiveness or shutting off communication when faced with a big problem. I try very hard to treat everyone around me with kindness and respect. It's only at work that I can be an aggressive, direct person...but that seems to motivated people in that setting. I'm a nice guy, basically, and I don't like to think I am a dying breed.

Jake

[Write14u]

I hear ya, Jake. Excellent points.

I have these kinds of conversations with my roomie and good friend, who is a bio-male. He just seems so lackadaisical in this category. I mean, he is well-mannered, but it seems like he's content to just do things halfway.

I know I picked up a lot of things from my dad, who does his thing in a quiet way. But there are things I didn't learn from him. I picked up many things from a guy I knew in high school. I think my thing was a fascination with the old-school, gentlemanly behavior. There are a lot of traits associated with masculinity, but ones like those are the ones I prefer to co-opt.

[little man]

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".



i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

[always2late]

i've been thinking about this portion of your post. a couple of questions, if you don't mind indulging me.

i'm curious to know how your dad sees that being more sensitive impinges on his masculinity. did he happen to say what it was, in particular, that he feels like he's losing? it would seem, to me, to be a gain.

can you help me out with this?

Sure :)

A little background first though....my dad was brought up with even stricter gender roles than my generation. However, his mom became ill when he was very young. So my dad became a dichotomy of sorts. He took on what would be considered, at that time, the "woman's" job...cooking, cleaning, caring for his younger sister, etc...

Its also of note that my dad, a longshoreman by trade, discovered that he had a talent for floral design (and he really is incredible at it...he had a side business in it for years) :)

So, I don't think he was speaking of the specific "jobs" assigned to men. I tend to think he was speaking of the more intangible, for lack of a better word, aspects of his idea of "masculinity". He was taught that men are chivalrous, respectful, and strong, not just physically, but in character as well. That they endure without complaining. They are the providers and the protectors. For my dad, a man that does not hold a door open for a woman, or offer her his seat, or defend her when she is threatened, is, in his view, a "lesser man". It is his belief that men do not put their own needs first, their purpose is to take care of and provide for their family and to keep them safe. However, he also believes that men do not show their feelings, or weaknesses, or flaws....that it undermines their strength to do so.

What can I say? While I don't always agree with all of my father's beliefs or ideas, I have to look at the source and realize that he is, as we all are to some extent, a product of what he was brought up to believe. We can modify and alter those beliefs somewhat...but many of them are deep-rooted.

[little man]

Sure :)

A little background first though....my dad was brought up with even stricter gender roles than my generation. However, his mom became ill when he was very young. So my dad became a dichotomy of sorts. He took on what would be considered, at that time, the "woman's" job...cooking, cleaning, caring for his younger sister, etc...

Its also of note that my dad, a longshoreman by trade, discovered that he had a talent for floral design (and he really is incredible at it...he had a side business in it for years) :)

So, I don't think he was speaking of the specific "jobs" assigned to men. I tend to think he was speaking of the more intangible, for lack of a better word, aspects of his idea of "masculinity". He was taught that men are chivalrous, respectful, and strong, not just physically, but in character as well. That they endure without complaining. They are the providers and the protectors. For my dad, a man that does not hold a door open for a woman, or offer her his seat, or defend her when she is threatened, is, in his view, a "lesser man". It is his belief that men do not put their own needs first, their purpose is to take care of and provide for their family and to keep them safe. However, he also believes that men do not show their feelings, or weaknesses, or flaws....that it undermines their strength to do so.

What can I say? While I don't always agree with all of my father's beliefs or ideas, I have to look at the source and realize that he is, as we all are to some extent, a product of what he was brought up to believe. We can modify and alter those beliefs somewhat...but many of them are deep-rooted.

thank you...i had supposed it was along these lines. your dad and mine must be of about the same age.

i love the fact that he's fabulous with floral arrangements. i also find that kind of ironic, in a conversation about "traditional" male roles.

for the most part, i would agree with your dad's measure of a man. it sounds as if the emotional piece is what's problematic for him.

[always2late]

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role :)

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

[little man]

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role :)

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

while frustrating for men "of a certain age", perhaps this shift toward sensitivity and emotion on the part of men bespeaks progress for men in their overall evolution.

[Apocalipstic]

LOL...yes I agree....the idea of a longshoreman floral designer does not really fit the "traditional" role :)

While I do agree with much of my father's "measure of a man" in theory....I do think he is stifled by his lack of ability to show, or come to terms with, his emotions.

So do you typically date Men, or Butches?

[always2late]

I date whomever I am attracted to and who exhibits the personality and character that I find desirable in a partner. :)

[Soon]

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism (http://www.feministing.com/archives/020579.html)

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

[Apocalipstic]

A problem for me has been expecting my partners to be a certain way based on what they look like or who they say/think they are.

If they present themselves as men in a "traditional" non "sensitive" kind of way, and I act accordingly (naturally), since I am horribly lacking on the romantic (remembering your birthdays and anniversary) and cuddling/foreplay department. They are upset that I am treating them like a man, when they are not. While really I am just being myself.

I see myself as a dude emotionally and have been told that by every single person I have dated in my 32 years of dating. I try to be more emotional and romantic, I do.

So expecting a person to be a certain way even if they think themselves that they are traditionally masculine in every way, does not mean they really are.

Am I making any sense at all?

[Apocalipstic]

Mandating chivalry is mandating sexism (http://www.feministing.com/archives/020579.html)

A Latin teacher in Arizona has instituted a rule that all of his male students act like "gentleman" to the young women in class. Yes, that's right - he's mandated chivalry.

Ivanyi announced the initiative on the first day of class:
• Boys would hold doors for girls.

• They would ask girls if they would like to be seated, and offer to take their backpacks before they sit down.

• Boys would stand if a girl leaves the room.

• They would allow girls to be served first if food is in the classroom.

• And, girls always had the right of refusal.

"All boys will understand chivalry," Ivanyi said. "It's teaching them social grace. It's things they should know when they do go out on dates."

First of all, this is Latin class - not Old-School Dating 101. But I digress. As I've been speaking on college campuses this Spring, several students have asked me how I feel about chivalry, and if promoting feminism means "giving up" men being chivalrous. In a word: yes.

Now, let's be clear - there's a big difference between chivalry and manners. Being a nice person that opens doors for others (regardless of their gender) and being respectful is something that we should encourage in all people. That's being kind; it's mannered and it's nice. Chivalry, on the other hand, is straight up based on the idea that women are weaker need to be taken care of. It's insulting. It's also a trade-off - one that we're supposed to be grateful for - for being at the shit end of the patriarchy.

There's a reason that folks like the Independent Women's Forum - an organization that fights against Title IX and VAWA - have full on campaigns to promote chivalry. It's the same reason that conservative columnists bemoan how feminism has killed women being "ladies," or how if chivalry still existed rape would magically go away: The world in which women are treated like delicate flowers who need dudes to pay for their dinners and put on their jackets is a world in which women are expected to live up to their end of the bargain by being submissive and embracing traditional gender roles. No thanks - I'll take equal pay over paid dinner dates any day.

Posted by Jessica - March 31, 2010, at 02:53PM | in Education , Sexism


-----------------

Thoughts?

I love good manners!

But yes, I would rather be paid as an equal in the work place over someone buying me dinner I can afford and expecting something in return. I would rather be the one paying and expecting ;).

Chivalry to me brings up Medieval courtly expectations of a knight in shining armor rescuing a poor defenseless maiden sort of thing.

[Hack]

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

[Soon]

Here's the thing.

I don't make a big show, I think, about holding open doors and other things like that. I hold them open for all women, sometimes men, anyone carrying a child or package, and especially older people.

I feel weird, though, when men hold doors open for me. lol

I think it was little man who said a few posts back that he feels women are the most magnificent creatures on earth. When I read that, I thought to myself, I feel the same. And I do. However, I would never, in a million years imply that holding a door open for a women, buying her lunch or standing when she enters a room equates to her being helpless, weak or anything like that. Are you kidding me? Most girls I have had the pleasure of spending time with would knock me in to next week if I were implying that. Especially queer girls or femmes -- they, in my opinion, have to be the fiercest women on the planet because they choose to stand alongside guys like me, kiss me in public and have had my back on more than one occasion.

Re-reading that paragraph above, it seems the least I can do for girls who spend time with me is hold open the doors and buy lunch.

Just my thoughts.

Jake

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.

[always2late]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

[Soon]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

I thought the article was really conducive to the discussion about what constitutes *masculinity* in today's society.

The article did happen to be from Feministing.

Do I like/appreciate/cherish certain behaviours from my husband? Yes.

I think, though, when others start instilling (parents, school authorities, etc.) what it is to BE masculine or a man, that is where trouble may begin--when people dictate what it is to be truly masculine, a butch ... etc. that's where I take an issue (same difference for what constitutes femininity for me).

I felt badly for the students in that article to have a teacher tell them what it is to be a *proper* man or woman--people on this site know that that can be very tricky and even damaging.

Interesting to think about and good thread.

[Hack]

I get what you are saying--completely.
--------

However, imagine you or guys like you in that class (in the article) where the teacher is enforcing these rules of etiquette based on someone's gender. Or maybe your post was in no relation to the article from Feministing? At any rate, I am pretty ticked at this classroom enforcement of manners based on gender.

I imagine the butch or trans kids feeling very uncomfortable with these sort of expectations of behaviour based on someone's perceived gender.

I don't think it is up to teachers to explain what is appropriate manners/behaviour based on gender. He/she should be instilling politeness/respect for all but not these forms of etiquette that are gender stratified. I can imagine some very uncomfortable and even humiliated children who would be mortified if they had to accept these forms/codes of behaviour when they do not identify with the gender that is recognized by their peers or teacher.

That is but one of my objections to this little exercise of this Latin teacher of Arizona.



I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

[Apocalipstic]

Like I said, I love good manners :)
and if someone wants to buy me lunch I am honored. :)

Now, if the same person refuses under any circumstance for me to buy them lunch, then it is a problem. My G/F now for example lost her job of many years with General Motors and I am paying the bills. If she had a problem with that and thought it was less masculine somehow, it would make an already stressful situation way worse.

I think "masculinity" or what people expect to be masculine can be so different from person to person. What keep coming up for me in this discussion is the expectation that the man/Butch not be the sensitive one.

I think over the course of my life, I have expected Butches to be as unemotional, un-sensitive (not insensivive) and unromantic as I am, and this expectation has hurt some feelings along the way. Does that make sense?

Like when I have been single and dating and made it crystal clear (I thought) that I was just messing around with no strings attached and then being told "but Butches have feelings too and I just thought you were playing hard to get" .....:amsmiling:

Or with every single Butch I have dated (some of them trans now) saying how unromantic I am.

I am learning that we can't expect people to have certain behaviors based on how they look.

[Apocalipstic]

But again, if we are talking manners, yes, lovely manners are wonderful. :)

[Soon]

I was writing more in response to Apocalipstic.

I have many relatives, including a sister, who is a teacher. Any of them will tell you that their job includes many things, including teaching kids manners.

I was attempting to say that that good manners are important to me, and I employ them naturally. I don't agree with what this particular teacher is doing either. Kids should learn manners at home, from parents, grandparents or whomever they are raised by.

Jake

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.

-----------
Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks for clarifying; I realized when I finished my post maybe it wasn't directed as a response to the article. Oh, and I agree manners can and should be taught at home--I also think they can be taught at school too (as in respect for all people), but I would hate for them to be taught in way like...boys do this...and girls do this kinda way. I still remember being told how a lady sits and what she does and doesn't do...it felt very rigid and even shaming at certain points.


Getting back to the OP's question of what constitutes masculinity for me?
I still can't definitively answer that--but I know it when I feel it and it's hot and works for me.

It is a combination of behaviour and appearance...but I can't list the exact attributes. Do I feel the protector/protected thing (now)? Yes, I do but I didn't feel that with my male partners in the past; interestingly enough, I felt I was the stronger one in the relationship. I also feel more comfortable with being the (lucky) recipient of certain behaviours than I ever have before. Weird, eh?

I'll think on it some more.




I think you put a finger on my problem....the whole "a lady acts this or that way" and yes I found it very shaming growing up.

[Hack]

Many women tell me I have masculine energy, masculine behaviors, masculine traits.

I don't argue. I embrace that about myself. That's me, you know?

In fact, everything society associates with feminine is a completely foreign thing to me. Some of my straight guy friends will come to me to explain women to them, and I say to them, "I have no idea, man. I am as mystified as you sometimes." But that's all part of the allure to me...I like being mystified. ;)

Jake

[AtLast]

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

[Corkey]

Some people are perfectly happy just the way they are, without anyone else trying to figure out who they are.
Allowing people to be who they are is what living in harmony with others is about.
Folks don't get to decide for others who and how they ID, what makes them tick or how they wear their britches.
Be yourself, and have the common courtesy to let others do the same.
This dichotomy of gender isn't who I am nor how I live my life. I am a Human Being, not a label!
My .02 on this worn out subject.

[Liam]

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

I accept the fact that the binary doesn't work, for some, however, it works for me, and I find that I have a great deal of freedom in my masculinity. I don't find it to be a rigid construct, that dictates what I do or don't do, but one that I and other masculine people are shaping, minute by minute, day by day, with the choices that we make in our lives.

I embrace ways of being which are considered "traditional," for males, yet I am also sensitive, and capable of talking about my feelings. Discussing my feelings, was not something that came naturally to me, I worked very hard for many years to learn how to communicate with people, and even more years and hard work to learn how to identify and express my feelings.

[AtLast]

I accept the fact that the binary doesn't work, for some, however, it works for me, and I find that I have a great deal of freedom in my masculinity. I don't find it to be a rigid construct, that dictates what I do or don't do, but one that I and other masculine people are shaping, minute by minute, day by day, with the choices that we make in our lives.

I embrace ways of being which are considered "traditional," for males, yet I am also sensitive, and capable of talking about my feelings. Discussing my feelings, was not something that came naturally to me, I worked very hard for many years to learn how to communicate with people, and even more years and hard work to learn how to identify and express my feelings.

What you are saying here is not at all like what is so often perpetuated about the masculine as traditional. You are able to express feelings and it sounds like, that even though this took some work, you value this.

I can get behind shaping new dimensions of masculinity, but when I read stereotypic, traditional patriarchal foundations of masculine being viewed as desirable, I just can't see much of a difference between old and new in terms of gender identification.

I certainly do understand feeling more free with integrating what is known about gender today. Actually, it is exactly this that adds to my own comfort in being a butch woman.

[Dylan]

What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other. I just don't accept a male-female dichotomy and am so tired of traditional, patriarchal ideas of what is masculine or male... and female or feminine.

Butch as continually defined in the masculine is very limiting and quite gender ignorant to me. Constraining as well and a perpetuation of sexist ideology. If we are going to move beyond the binary, we need to stop this crap.

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

[AtLast]

I'm gonna be a little difficult here for a minute (shocking, I know).

And I'm not 'attacking' you...I'm gonna use the pronoun 'you', because you (personally) brought it up, but I'm also using 'you' in the general sense, because I've seen this same thing said a lot.

Ok, so you say, you don't accept the dichotomy of male-female. I get that.

However, then you also say, "What is masculine for me is rooted in the feminine.... can't have one without the other."

Ok, so here's where I'm gonna be difficult.

If there's no dichotomy, masculine wouldn't be rooted in feminine, and technically, One could have one without the other. I mean, if there's no dichotomy, either masculine or feminine could exist without the other or with another. We're so limited in language here, because we're not given a 'third option'. We're only given masculine/feminine. But, if we're NOT thinking in a dichotomy, then we're speaking in a spectrum (right?), ergo, One doesn't NEED one to have the other. Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

Also, I think a lot of 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are born out of white, (predominately middle class), Western thinking. This was briefly touched on in the FIB butches thread on the other site.

On another note, while I revel in certain aspects of masculinity and femininity, I think when either are used as 'rules' to control people, I'm not down with that.


Dylan

I see your point here. I think my (just being personal, here) integration with masculinity & femininity is difficult for me to disconnect on many levels due to how i put it together for myself on a spiritual level (I know, eye-roll). But, yes, I see how my statement doesn't mesh the whole of all of this.

And I have had some more thoughts about this because what I really was reacting to is something I often do- when I see gender myths perpetuated by our own. I think I am also skewed in my thinking sometimes due to raising a male child as a masculine female in this society. A male child that did not fit well in the traditional sense of masculinity in this culture (the reverse of myself).

As I have said before, I am grateful for gender theories being examined more fully within my lifetime, but, I also see a lot of male-privilege continuing to be at the apex of gender identification and traditional social values.

There is something amiss with how someone that is socialized as female (and all of the negative that goes along with this in US culture) perceives what it is to be socialized as male, or be male. The US really has a gender-complex, I believe. Look at how many of us (butch, femme, and everyone one else) have some very significant grief about how we were not viewed positively because of the gender binary. On top of this, I think that many of us equate looking male (or more masculine) as being the same thing as how men are socialized in our society as men.. And this just isn't true. We do look at male socialization from a female socialized point of reference.

I have listened to conversations about this between my son (41 year old man) and TG men and had more than one light-bulb moment. Neither knows the differences, really. What they know are projections stemming from being socialized as male or female, just like everyone. Both (even with sensitivity and a genuine desire to understand ) assume what it is like to be treated as female or male from birth.. Neither, really knows. I don’t. My kid also doesn’t come from a traditional kind of upbringing, either which plays a part in this. Yes, he was subjected to a lot of the short-man negativity and as a dancer and not interested in traditional male-dominated sports, he took a lot of shit. Didn’t help that he grew up in a small red-neck town, either. Oh, and the fact that for most of his life, he has had a dyke mother wasn’t easy.

I personally find gender theory freeing myself, even as a butch woman. It has given me a lot of comfort and freed me from many internal conflicts.

But, I do get worked-up when I see the queer community continue to buy into things like men don’t know what women want. This isn’t a product of gender, it is a product of gender-role stereotyping and probably for some, a lack of interpersonal communication skills. It is the same for women and a product of socialization in the main (there are other factors that can be biophysiological).

For me, the perpetuation of gender myths (male & female via binary definitions and behavioral expectations) within a time that finally, gender is being viewed outside of the binary is very sad. Especially sad when this comes from the queer community. I really, honestly, wrestle with this. Also, it gets to me when the same myths are applied to femmes. If there is one thing I have learned, it is that femmes come in all types!

Something else that strikes me is that the transmen (and MtF's) in my life that I know well are feminists and academics. So, I don't believe I have a very accurate picture of the full range of transmen.. or MtF's, really. Although, my early experiences with childhood friends differs from this

[Apocalipstic]

I am Femme and I have little idea of what a feeling actually is or what women want.

People are all different and those differences do not always run on gender lines.

[DapperButch]

I don't quite know how we got into a discussion about feminism when the thread was primarily started because of my curiosity about other's thoughts on masculinity....but here is my two cents.

Do I want to be paid the same as my male counterparts? Yes. Am I weak and defenseless? No. Do I NEED someone to take care of me? Again, no (I am a big girl and I've been taking care of myself for a very long time). However, do I WANT someone who wants to care for me, respect me, hold a door open for me, pull out my chair, cherish me, and, if necessary, protect me? Yes, yes I do.

And I don't think that there is anything wrong with this. Especially for us butches who naturally fall into this "style" of the dance. For some butches it is how we "show our love", and how we just simply operate in our relationships, so it is great when one finds a femme who seeks this same "style" of dancing.

I need a partner who seeks/desires this from me (seeks that type of "energy" or "way of being", or "way of relating"), or I would not feel fulfilled in that relationship (I would feel like I wasn't giving something to my partner that I need to give..or something like that!)

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong:|

[Liam]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.


So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

[BullDog]

Thank you so much for your post Snowy! My masculinity does not come from traditional notions of what a man or male is supposed to be since I am neither.

I am a butch who has loved walking girls home from school and carrying their books since the time I could walk, lol. I do enjoy what some call "old school" or "the dance." However, this has nothing to do with any traditional ideas of masculinity or how a butch is supposed to act or be. It is just me. I was this way long before I even knew what butch was.

I love it when femmes and other feminine women embrace their dashes and flairs of masculinity. That's powerful.

I also loved what Apocalipstic had to say about how as a femme she doesn't fit the stereotypes in terms of what women are supposed to think and feel.

To be honest, I think everyone is looking for a partner who is strong (femmes being among the strongest people I have ever known) and kind, no matter what their gender or what gender they are attracted to.

Women can and do fully embrace masculinity. I fit the "dance" just not the stereotypes. ;)

[Dylan]

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, I agree with you that notions of what is masculine and feminine are culturally based and in Western cultures based on white culture in particular.

Just to be clear, I do think walking girls home from school and carrying their books is a stereotype often associated with masculine courtly or courteous behavior. I just happened to enjoy doing that from a young age.

[Dylan]

Ok, so then, here's where I get completely confused in these conversations

If 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine are culturally based, and

If One believes those cultural bases are misogynist, and

If One is going to scoff 'traditional' ideas of masculine/feminine

Then why are we always talking about it?

I mean, why aren't we all just happy with who we are? And if we are all happy with who we are/however we are...why are we always talking about this?

I don't mean that in a harsh tone, I mean it seriously. I mean, are we trying to redefine it? What is the ideal outcome of (say) this conversation?

I'm really not trying to be obtuse here.

I mean, are we talking about the ways these 'traditional' ideas are perpetuated in our community? Because I've seen that happen to both femmes and butches, and that's pretty crappy...but then, on the other hand, if traditional ideas are someone's cuppa, then, I have a choice to participate or excuse myself, right? I mean, some people like all that traditional stuff, and some folks don't like all that traditional stuff, right?

I mean, I don't think someone should base their whole 'worth' on some stupid traditional idea of what is or isn't masculine/feminine...and I DO get a bit riled when I see stuff like, "this is how a butch/femme *should* act"

And I do get a little riled up when I see masculine/feminine being equated to what het men/women do...and that's how 'butches and femmes *should* act'

So, is this what we're talking about in this thread

And Atlast brought up that some of the 'traditional' ideas are based in misogyny...can someone please give me an example, so I'm more clear on exactly what we're talking about there? Because, I DO think *some* (notice the little asterisks, please) notions are rooted more in biological differences than 'traditional sexism' (notice the bunny ears, please). Oh, and I'm not saying that just because they may have originally been rooted in biological differences, they're not sexist in today's society.


I Hope This Post Is Clear, Although, I Have My Doubts,
Dylan

[AtLast]

I'm going to be difficult here again

But, um, aren't ALL of our (speaking from a Western POV) definitions and ideas of masculinity and femininity cultural and thus biased?

I mean, if One asks me to define what makes Xperson masculine, I'm only really going to be able to rely on traditional, cultural statements of that definition.

Walking someone home from school and carrying books (using these as examples because they were the last examples to be brought up) are traditional cultural concepts

ANY 'example' or 'definition' of masculinity or femininity are going to be culturally based...as far as I can think of.

Absolutely, they are culturally based. And unfortunately, in US culture, we have the perpetuation of white male as the ideal and the one with continued privilege.


And Again, They're Predominately White, Western Based, Because These Ideas Are Not (necessarily) The Same Throughout Other/Each Culture,
Dylan

I think what always gets to me in these conversations is the acceptance of what has been traditionally equated with both masculine and feminine in US culture, yet, we have this whole new gender perspective at our disposal to break these concepts down. In doing so, it seems like we could free so much of what has oppressed us.

Behaviors like carrying books, opening doors, etc. to me, are just part of a person's internal value system or nature and don't have a thing to do with gender identification really. Not the complex nature of gender that I see many friends dealing with if they are struggling with transition issues. Or, for me as a butch woman.

My perfect world would be one that had more of the two-spirit or ideas formed about gender in other cultures that have not been based upon the binary. But, I am stuck with being in the US and growing up with a very oppressive take on not only gender, but gender roles based upon the binary. And this contamination seems to be seeping through to newer ways of viewing gender from a perspective that does not accept a binary system. Where is the progress?

For the record, I want to apologize for my using crap in my initial post on the thread. it was insensitive. I do get worked-up when I see stereotypes of mascilinity and feminity thrown around. But, I should not have said that.

[Liam]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong:|

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

So I have to ask cause i don't know if I am you right..

Are you mad about something? Did my difference in masculine traits not go with what you like think? Should I have not expressed my POV?

Curious...

Do you really feel someone is being erased by words here?

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am not mad at you, Snowy, however I think your questions would be great in another thread. I did not appreciate AtLastHome's comment about crap, and I have addressed that personally, with her. I do disagree with you regarding your statement that traditional went out the window. Its a nice thought, but we are a long ways from achieving that. I think many people have expanded their notion of what masculine is, not everyone has. It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me. I thought this thread was for those, who were. And yes, I think when you refer to characteristics or behaviours that people have used to describe themselves, as stifling, you are definitely putting them down.


I must of misread then, cause I swore that this thread was about *discussing* masculinity and traditions.. I believe the OP asked for our thoughts on this, I mean I did not honestly think this was just for traditional type folks..

You assuming I am not into *traditional* masculinity is jumping the gun no? Do you know this for sure? I don't get where you think I am stiffling or putting anyone down, what I was DOING was discussing or rather asking and wondering what is that exactly?

I do think we have evolved from the whole me tarzan you jane theory of us. I dunno maybe I am wrong and you are foreign to the evolved concept (me assuming) I mean really do we want to be stuck in these presumed roles? Curious I really am? Kinda has a scent of misoginy, a lil machismo going on and other stuff..

[BullDog]

Whose "traditions" are you talking about?

[Apocalipstic]

I also did not realize that this thread was just for those who are into traditional roles, I thought it was a questions about how we see it today.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Liam..

Yanno it really bothers me when you say....

"It doesn't sound like you are into "traditional" masculinity to me" it makes me cringe when I read it and here is why..

You are assuming, and I wonder if you assume this because I am not the kind of femme who is the little girl, the girly girl, I am that other type of femme, the bossy, toppy, who likes those boys who *bottom* With this may come the assumption that the boy I fuck is not masculine or a real guy because well what real guy wants to be fucked, guys fuck not the other way around.

I feel like I have to defend myself to my southern father who assumes because I am an assertive woman no *gentle* type is going to look my way.. I am being honest your post to me felt a bit like you asserting your masculinity on me.. I don't respond well to chest thumpers and I wanted to be honest with you.

I hope that is not the case and this is not what I am really reading


I can't imagine how many femmes refrain from posting, who will back down from oppresive shit like this, I just can't never have never will...

Do you see how this can be the real silencing, oppressing tool??

[weatherboi]

When I read the OP I felt they were asking for a discussion about what is deemed "Traditional" masculinity. I didnt think this was a thread to discuss "what is a real man" thread, so I am going to go with the "it is a discussion" theory. I also remember reading an invitation to femmes to assert their opinions!!!!

When I hear "Traditional" masculinity, my mind screams role segregation. Segregation of education, housework, profession, decision making, childcare/ child education. I don't equate "Traditional" masculinity to opening doors, holding out chairs, blah, blah and etc. I DON'T equate masculinity with Topping/bottoming or D/s roles. IMO those acts are my "get to's" in any relationship I am participating in not gender defining to me as a guy.

Breaking down masculinity in todays society would entail looking at the impact of gender on a global scale not on an individual scale. How gender relationships connect institutionally and create global gender order/priviledge with in globally large communities(YES) and large buisness corporations (YES) that act as large communities. I would think it would be like breaking down and understanding any other hierarchy system or systemic priviledge pattern.

[Liam]

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

[The_Lady_Snow]

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

[Apocalipstic]

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

I think the Catholic Church started the male traditions thing to keep control of the church in the hands of males.

[Martina]

The only thing I assumed here, is that this thread was for folks who embrace and like traditional masculine characteristics. My apologies to all, if I am incorrect.

Snowy, your comments earlier led me to believe that you dislike the notion of traditional masculinity, you tossed it out the window and went on to something larger, I thought you found it stifling.

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

[Liam]

I guess that happened long ago for me Liam, the tossing out of *traditional* masculinity. I did not get told I had to be this kind of girl by my folks, Dad tried for a good 6 months gave it up each time I looked at him with the wtf look. So maybe my evolved idea of masculinity is foreign. I mean what is *traditional* masculinity? I am still confused on that, is it the whole guys have the say so? You Tarzan me Jane?

Am I less femme because I ooze masculinity at times? I guess I can see how you were lead to your confusion, I too am confused, do you like the role of being tied into a boxed gender role? Is this why your idea of masculinity is so stiffling to me, because it's kinda oppressing and confining. I am really curious here.

What are these traditions? Who started them? Is it wrong to assume they scream of Male Status startings?

Your "evolved" idea of masculinity is not at all foreign to me. My notion of traditional masculinity has nothing to do with Tarzan or Jane. I don't think you are less anything, in being who you are. I don't feel tied into a boxed gender role, that must be your perception. Once again, great questions.

[Liam]

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Martina, I wasn't suggesting that anyone leave the thread. I thought that the questions would be best in another thread.

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..

[Liam]

What is the traditional lined example of what this thread is about..

Once again I thought it was a discussion on it, and other forms...

I thought we were discussing how to move away or not from those constricting forms..

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

[SuperFemme]

I believe that in the context of this forum, traditional refers to stereotypes, particularly masculine stereotypes. I don't think stereotypes of any gender will be leaving soon, they vary from culture to culture, but as long as there are people, there will be stereotypes, and there will be those individuals who elude stereotypical catagorization.

I think its important to talk about gender stereotypes, however I don't think this is the thread for that. There are folks here identifying how they feel about characteristics and behaviors they possess. To call it crap, or claim it no longer exists, denies them their voice, denies them their self-definition. I don't think this is a place for saying something is right or wrong, but listening. If you don't agree, don't read, better yet, start your own thread to discuss what it is you want to talk about.

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.


I felt like the above post was condescending, silencing and for sure an invitation to leave the thread if one doesn't agree with this poster on traditional masculinity.

So yeah Martina, I feel ya.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I obviously misunderstood what this thread was about, Snowy. Have fun discussing.

Would of been cool having a dialogue with you, you answering my questions, discussing ideals..

such is life eh?

[Corkey]

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

Which is one reason I left the dash site. Opinions are great! Slap downs, not so much.
Unsubscribing

[The_Lady_Snow]

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

[SuperFemme]

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??


Does Traditional Family equate Nuclear Family models or are we talking about my Papa and his machismo?

Traditional is very subjective.

[Queerasfck]

So instead of discussing, answering questions everyone unsubscribes?

Anyone out there have an example of Traditional Masculinity??

Bueller??

When I think of traditional masculinity I think of my dad. For the most part he fit the bill. Was the sole breadwinner of the household, your typical white collar dad. My mom did not work until my sis and I were teens. He rarely showed any emotion except anger. He rarely did hugs, watched sports a lot and didn't cook or do any of the housework.
That was the role model for men I was given. By my standards today I don't think it's all that. I think there are lots of ways it can be done better.

[The_Lady_Snow]

When I think of traditional masculinity I think of my dad. For the most part he fit the bill. Was the sole breadwinner of the household, your typical white collar dad. My mom did not work until my sis and I were teens. He rarely showed any emotion except anger. He rarely did hugs, watched sports a lot and didn't cook or do any of the housework.
That was the role model for men I was given. By my standards today I don't think it's all that. I think there are lots of ways it can be done better.



How does this fit you, or does it even fit your way of how you are masculine? Do you feel you have evolved from this example?

Am I being to intrusive? :|

[always2late]

Can't we all just get along? ;)

I am the OP...and in the interest of clarification...the intention of the thread is this:

I had a discussion with my father and, as stated earlier in the thread, I agree with some of his ideas of "masculinity" and disagree with others. This thread was started for the purpose of curiosity. I wanted to know others' opinions on what their idea of "traditional" masculinity is...and how that does, or does not fit into their lives. I wanted opinion, discussion, dialogue, etc...from the entire community. I originally threw the question out to the butch/ftm members of our community...but then went back and amended the original post. Obviously, we femmes also have a place in this discussion as to how our idea, or society's idea of "masculinity" does, or does not fit into our lives as well.

[AtLast]

What is traditional masculinity? What if *I* happen to have a dash of masculinity along with my femininity?

What if my femininity does not *match* the ideals of *traditional* femininity?

Is there room for these stifled ideals for how things are now being the gender spectrum is so large...

*I* personally do not fit into any stifled *girls do this and boys do that* kinda thing..

*I* feel we fall into the whole heteroworld of masculine is this and feminine is that and then get stuck on this whole gender, role, misogynist way of being and well I don't role that way so yeah......

Lets be honest traditional when out the window as soon as butch women such as Mr Cynthia, BullDog and others before them said, hey I am masculine but I sho don't equate man...

So in my eyes masculinity covers and has evolved into a larger spectrum than that of what *tradition* intended....

I could be wrong:|



I see your points and I see Liam's, too. It figures.... I analyze the hell out of so much. And get caught up in the abstract often.

The new femme thread that takes a look at some of these issues is really helping me. There are a multitude of stereotypes about all of us, including our trans members. And to me, it just ends up being a perpetuation of the binary for all of us. Makes me crazy! There are times, I just want to live on an island with my dog and cats.. just us!

I'm thinking, however, about what Liam is talking about in terms of why we (me included) have the negative attachments to some of the traditional gender and role stereotypes. Some of these are not negative attributes at all, until we assign negative feelings to them which usually (for me, anyway) come up due to things that I have experienced or seen someone I care about experience.

This discussion got me thinking about my brother's early death (age 47) who as a male in this culture (along with specific ethnic ideas of what males/masculinity should be), who was an alcoholic and would not seek treatment based upon many stereotypes of what masculine or being male means in this culture. Now, he also was born in 1946, a teen in the 50's, was the only son in a family that viewed passing on our name as only legitimate through males. His drinking was not recognized as anything but what men do for a very long time (the denial was very strong down the patriarchal line). And to seek help for alcoholism (wasn't called that- he became a problem drinker when he passed the teen years). Because we lived in a small town and he was a well known business person involved in the community, he wouldn't dare go to AA. He was a hunter and did all the man-guy stuff, including womanizing. You know, it was the booze, not him, really. And hey, a man that can drink, is a man's man.

In the end, he did not take responsibility for his addiction and actions and allowed all of this traditional male behavior nonsense to kill him. I make no excuses for his not dealing with his problems. However, I can see how gender stereotypes can tip the balance with these kinds of things. It wasn't manly to admit you had any kind of problem with anything and do something about it. Especially if treatment was medical or involved therapy or even self-help programs such as the 12-step programs.

On the other hand, look at what our society does to the female alcoholic. Ever hear, nothin' worse than a woman drunk? Women are so sloppy when they drink too much. She's a bad mother because she is an alcoholic. I don’t care to be around anyone that is drunk, woman or man! My brother had a child and was a single parent, but no one ever said anything about his inability to parent effectively due to his drinking. In fact, he was praised for being a single parent, yet, I took his child away from him and drove him places many times and just brought him to my house because I didn't want him to drive with the kid while he was drinking, or just plain drunk.

Probably rambling..... I just want a new set of gender roles that align with our part of a time when we have so much more to work with and build a more healthy world concerning gender identity and behavior. Yes, I am ideological…. I want us to leave something behind that kicks these stereotypes to the curb!!!

The link to the Fierce femme Thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1126

[Dylan]

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan

[Queerasfck]

How does this fit you, or does it even fit your way of how you are masculine? Do you feel you have evolved from this example?

Am I being to intrusive? :|

I don't feel like these are intrusive questions. As I said before, my dad was my main role model for traditional masculinity along with my uncles. Growing up my dad I clashed a lot, add to the fact he had mental and physical issues which went mostly undiagnosed it made for a rocky unbringing. In a nutshell it wasn't so great. But for all that I loved him.
I never saw him cry once. He was emotionally stagnated in someways but I believe it was typical for the men of his generation. He was a bigot and a yeller.I believe I took away from my unbringing things that work for me. My father was a strong presence in my life and as the head of our family, the provider. I feel I have quality as the head of my family as well. I like to be the rock for my family. I know I get that from my dad. He had a strong personality and was a natural born leader. Those things fit me.
I believe I took some good qualities from my dad and thankfully left the rest.......I only wish I had a few of his cool old cardigans and ties. Oh and his perfectly organized shoe shine kit with the wing tips he wore!

[Linus]

//Little techie beanie on

Read the OP. In fact, not. In any case, one thing i do miss about the dash site is that if anyone, even the OP but especially someone NOT the OP, came in and suggested to others that they might want to leave the thread -- they'd get slapped down.

Just a community values time out moment -- that's not something that i think we should be doing.

And you know why they did? Because someone reported. I have yet to see a report on this thread. Is there an issue that you think is something a mod or admin need to address? Push the button. However, I have this feeling that this can be sorted amongst yourselves like adults and that a mod doesn't need to come in here

//Little techie beanie off.




On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".

[The_Lady_Snow]

So, Snow, if some people LIKE traditional roles of masculinity and femininity in their relationships then they're neanderthals who stifle others, because they haven't evolved yet?

Am I reading you correctly?,
Dylan


Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

[Dylan]

Well Reverend since you asked so nicely...

I have felt this way when attempted to be shoved down my throat, or somehow I am less than femme because I do not accept these roles that are not part of who *I* am.. So yes when it came down to it, I have said hey, knock it out with your caveman ways and stop stifling me... If you don't like how I am and how I like things in my world..

Step off..

That has been my experience and how I deal with it...

*I* don't like being confined make sense?

Yeah, I get what you're saying...about people putting their ideas of "What is Feminine/Masculine" on you (personally)

But let's say, I'm ovah here livin' Mahhh Life with Mahhh Woman, and we stick to traditional roles of masculine/feminine...and we're both quite happy doin' so...livin' in bliss

Does that make me a knuckle-draggin' Neanderthal? Does it make Mahhh Woman an Edith Bunker who "just can't think for herself"?

I mean, yeah, I think we've ALL dated that one (or two or three) random person who has some ideas of masculine/feminine that don't jive with our own ideas, and I'm sure we've all felt limited/stifled/put upon in those situations where we're told we're not butch/femme enough for ThatPerson.

But in this particular conversation, I didn't see anyone say anything about you (personally) aside from Liam saying something that maybe you don't partner with those people who are into (what's deemed) "traditional" masculinity. I mean, I kinda get the same idea from all of your posts. If it's not your cuppa, then it's not your cuppa. If it is your cuppa, then it is. But based on your posts (throughout the years), I too have gotten the sense that you don't live your life following 'traditional' ideas of masculinity/femininity. I mean, you've said that a number of times in this thread, no? Am I misreading you? I didn't see where anyone said that's a bad thing...it just is what it is.

But (again) if me and mine wanna have at all the "traditional" stuff, does that make us cave people who don't have a working neuron in our brains?


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

[SuperFemme]

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

please go vacuum and cook dinner wearing fuzzy pink slippers, Schmoopy.

See? That is a reason for you to smack me.

I love cooking and vacuuming wearing fuzzy pink slippers.

You may make this face :| but it's cool with you.

smooches

[AtLast]

//


On another note: crying. I have discovered why some men don't cry. It's not for a lack of trying but because of a physical limitation to. Prior to being on T, I would tear-up and nearly be sobbing at SPCA commercials. Today, nothing. I can't even try to cry if I wanted to. In general, many of the "swing emotions" seemed dull compared to before T. So in some cases the lack of crying may not be an emotional issue but rather a physical limitation of T (I'm not unique in this, that I can attest to).

Something to add into consideration as a whole when considering that someone might be "emotionally stagnate".



This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

[Linus]

This is really interesting to me and I have heard this from friends on T. I have no knowledge concerning any studies about this, however.

The men in my family did cry. Not as much as the women, but, there just wasn't the same stigma attached to men emoting or crying in my ethnic and cultural background. Although, when my dad and brother were in the company of WASP men, I remember thinking they had tuirned into aliens. I'm sure ethnic/cultural perspectives influenced things.

I'm wondering about any cross-ethnic/racial/cultural studies about this? Ones that look at biophysiological aspects between racial/ethnic traits and crying concerning men? Probably for another thread... Just curious if you or anyone else has any info about the physiological structures here across cultures.

Something else that strikes me is the pervasive attachment in our culture that equates the ability to emote with crying. Seems like this is a pretty narrow view as people demonstrate emotions in varied ways no matter what gender they are. And many women (of all butch consellations and well as femmes), have problems with crying.

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)

[Dylan]

I am not talking about you, or him or ALLLLLLLLLLL peoples.. What I am talking about is the people who do act like this, who do try to girly me up more, who call me a pet name, who are uncomfortable with me and my strength, who super impose their traditional bullshit on me so that *they* can thump their chests....

It's out there it exists...

I guess I thought we were discussing in this thread hence my experiences put out there.

Maybe I misread....

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan

[AtLast]

I haven't seen any physiological studies but in a truly non-scientific manner, in my trans group, when I attended there was a huge spectrum of guys (from all sorts of races, cultures, etc.) and those that were on T seemed to uniformly state the same thing: crying became near impossible, even if one wanted to. Not because of stigma but rather because of T.

I think if they could do more studies on transguys on these kinds of issues, I think it would highlight/spotlight the same issues for non-trans individuals and identify things that are truly culture/societal versus physical. (nature vs. nuture)



Absolutely, there is really not much out there with studies. And I wonder about quite a few that do exist in terms of reliability because the field does not get funded for researchers to replicate studies and develop new theories to look at.

Thinking that actually, the Tg friends that I have heard this from (T and crying/forming tears) are a mix in ethnicity. But, this is just an example from a couple of guys I happen to know in my part of the world. It would seem like if this gets reported often in support groups etc., there is something going on.

Yes, it would help the non-trans and I'm thinking that so much more would be helpful for families and partners of TG folks going through transition together and also just having more info for those considering transitioning.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan


Here is the thing Rev...

It does not just happen in dating... Some folks throw their masculinity about like it's their job or someone assigned them to this.. Am I making sense? There are guys out there who will not be talked to by an assertive woman or a woman who holds power because they are to masculine to be talked to in that manner or my favorite they will cutesify you and give you a pet name so that they are comfy and can talk to you like a guy talks to a girl...

I don't think your woman is anything like Mrs Bunker cause well that woman put up with alot of shit from fucking Archie...

I don't think you are anywhere near an Archie and if you were, I see the Mrs wacking you with a shoe...

Do you guys have what seems like a traditional exchange when our, yes, but what I see is a guy, treating his woman right as they should, cause if I was a guy and my girl was giving me the allowance to dive into her sugary goodness, fuck yeah I would be all over the place making sure she was comfy and catered to..

That's just me though...

:hrmph:

[Martina]

//Little techie beanie on

And you know why they did? Because someone reported. I have yet to see a report on this thread. Is there an issue that you think is something a mod or admin need to address? Push the button. However, I have this feeling that this can be sorted amongst yourselves like adults and that a mod doesn't need to come in here

//Little techie beanie off.



i was told not to do that. To not report, but work it out here. That's what i was doing. Thanks for the mixed message.

[Linus]

i was told not to do that. To not report, but work it out here. That's what i was doing. Thanks for the mixed message.

Ah. I'm sorry.. I didn't mean to confuse things. While yes, we would like you to work it out but the reality is that sometimes something can't be worked out. That doesn't mean you shouldn't report things. If you feel you can't work it out (e.g., previous history, bad day, the sky went purple) then let us know.

That said, the reality is we won't address anything unless we know about it (this is a reality that we can't be everywhere at once). Reporting a post let's us know about an issue (which was all I was trying to point out). My apologies for the confusion.

[Martina]

Could that BE more transparent? You are trying to remove any political implications at ALL.

It feels DIFFERENT as a person with gender that includes feminine attributes to be silenced or told how she should BE Or behave in the world. It's not just personal. There is a political history that resonates in our BONES.

Telling me how to be a femme is not that different than the stuff i heard as a child -- how to act like a lady or how to be a good girl. The same implicit threats are usually involved too. No one will like you. You won't get attention. Blah blah.

i can't speak for Snow, but that's what her posts meant to me.


Well, yeah, I totally agree with you from a personal perspective.

I'm sure just about anyone would agree with you from a personal perspective that whenver One is subjected to Another's impositions, One is not going to be too happy unless One agrees with Another's stance.

I mean, I certainly didn't like the times I've dated someone who had ideas that didn't coincide with my own on "This is what a butch does, This is what a femme does". Honestly (without trying to sound alarmist), I think/wonder if some people sometimes use these statements as 'weapons' (term used loosely). I think they can be used hurtfully. I also think/wonder if some people don't use these ideas as a means to actually break off the relationship without actually having to be adult and just break it off...you know what I'm sayin'? Now, I'm not saying that's an 'all the time/every time' kind of thing, but I am saying, I do think it happens. But then sometimes, "That's why they call it dating", yanno?


Dylan

[AtLast]

Here is the thing Rev...

It does not just happen in dating... Some folks throw their masculinity about like it's their job or someone assigned them to this.. Am I making sense? There are guys out there who will not be talked to by an assertive woman or a woman who holds power because they are to masculine to be talked to in that manner or my favorite they will cutesify you and give you a pet name so that they are comfy and can talk to you like a guy talks to a girl...

I don't think your woman is anything like Mrs Bunker cause well that woman put up with alot of shit from fucking Archie...

I don't think you are anywhere near an Archie and if you were, I see the Mrs wacking you with a shoe...

Do you guys have what seems like a traditional exchange when our, yes, but what I see is a guy, treating his woman right as they should, cause if I was a guy and my girl was giving me the allowance to dive into her sugary goodness, fuck yeah I would be all over the place making sure she was comfy and catered to..

That's just me though...

:hrmph:

Seems like it all boils down to the energy exchange the couple has.... and how they nurture this as well as negotiate it.

Thinking that an asshole is an asshole, no matter the energy or gender. When I look at my relationships and even at my parents, I see a varied constellation with each partner being able to be who they are. Sure, issues/problems existed, but so did the will to overcome them. I am a very fortunate person. This just isn't how many people have experienced relationships. And there is always work to be done on myself.

There is a very big difference between integrating what gets put in the traditional pile of roles and how people adapt these to their relationship. I certainly knew in my last relationship that the femme I was with was no door mat! No way! Nor was I (I tend to be a care-taker, which has not always served me well). Sure, we had some of the traditional stuff going on... but there was a clear line with both of us respecting each other and ourselves. Thinking that any of us could end up in an abusive situation no matter how we put this together.

[Dylan]

Here is the thing Rev...

It does not just happen in dating... Some folks throw their masculinity about like it's their job or someone assigned them to this.. Am I making sense? There are guys out there who will not be talked to by an assertive woman or a woman who holds power because they are to masculine to be talked to in that manner or my favorite they will cutesify you and give you a pet name so that they are comfy and can talk to you like a guy talks to a girl...

I don't think your woman is anything like Mrs Bunker cause well that woman put up with alot of shit from fucking Archie...

I don't think you are anywhere near an Archie and if you were, I see the Mrs wacking you with a shoe...

Do you guys have what seems like a traditional exchange when our, yes, but what I see is a guy, treating his woman right as they should, cause if I was a guy and my girl was giving me the allowance to dive into her sugary goodness, fuck yeah I would be all over the place making sure she was comfy and catered to..

That's just me though...

:hrmph:

Ok, now I get what is going on. For some reason, I thought we were talking about dating/partnering relationships. I didn't realize we were speaking across the board throughout all types of relationships.

Yes, I see what you're saying now.


This All Makes Much More Sense Now,
Dylan

[Kosmo]

I have been pondering something for a bit...and I decided to start a thread about it.

Several years ago, my dad and I had a discussion about the decimation of "traditional" masculine attributes. He stated that society and the media were making the idea of "traditional" masculinity superfluous. The idea of masculinity representing strength was become an anaethema. "Men", according to my dad, were now supposed to be "sensitive" and exhibit attributes commonly associated with the traditional idea of "feminine". I began thinking about how I viewed masculinity....and what I "expected" with regards to behavior and mannerisms. And, at the risk of receiving a ton of sh*t for it, I have to admit that the type of masculinity I am attracted to could best be described as "traditional".

I was wondering if it would be possible to open a discussion on this premise. I am especially interested in the opinions of our butch/FTM community, and anyone else who has struggled with the idea of gender and the "traditional" roles prescribed by society. What are your views as to what constitutes masculine attributes and/or "personality"? And have you found your ideas challenged by family, friends, significant others, or society in general?

P.S. Came back to edit and add this....for the femmes...what do you look for in a partner with regard to masculinity? What are your ideas and/or preferences in this area?

My father (a child of the Greatest Generation) was a sensitive man with strength. I saw my father cry many times on many occasions, but never considered this to be a feminine trait. My mother was equally strong and dished out the penalties. I would always wonder, as a child, why my friends would be more scared of punishment from their father. I thought it was strange because if you even considered looking at my mother wrong, she'd take your head off faster than a New York minute. My mother had, if I had to place a word on it, inner strength. She ran the household financially.

I considered my father to be a man's man of his generation in some ways and I guess anti-stereotypical in others as I grew and came to understand more of what I observed. I tried to emulate him more than my mother because I felt a gender kinship with him. Both of them define me. When I observe masculinity in men, I see many things. Some of which I have always had/felt and others that don't fit me at all.

I've always looked for both strength and sensitivity in a partner. The strength shown by my mother and the sensitivity by my father.

[Jess]

I think for me the issue I have when considering "traditional" anything is exactly what tradition am I looking at? I consider myself Retrosexual, in that I seek the best from past observations of "male" and choose to exemplify those rather than the influences I see that were negative in those eras.

I like using handkerchiefs. I like opening the door for my wife. I prefer being well dressed over slovenly when in a public setting ( dinner, etc). I would probably frequent a barber shop over a uni-sex salon if I were FTM/ Man. I like my shoes shined and take pride in that.

Many of the things that I view as being a "man's man" are from my grandfather or great grandfather's generation and not my dad's. From him, I learned that it was ok for a man to be sensitive and playful. ( That's about it though, as he was pretty irresponsible).

As a butch woman "metrosexual" doesn't really work for me, as it appears too effeminate ( for me). Tough guy doesn't really work ( unless I am in scene), Dumb Dad ( read: Tool Time) doesn't always work as I am a bit too enlightened for that. So, traditional is vague for me.

I do enjoy the Butch-femme dynamic over any other that i have seen employed, as it just seems to fit for me. Now... defining Butch and Femme takes on a whole nother debate! LOL!

Thanks for the thread miss always (f)

[WickedFemme]

I am femme and I am attracted to masculine looking butches - it's just a preference and it makes me hot.
The only aspects of masculine that I don't particularly care for are the negative ones in which they have been used to oppress or put down someone due to some kind of sense of superiority and/or entitlement.
The rest of it - whatever floats your boat...
I am femme but I don't identify or fit with the stereotypical charactersitics other than perhaps my outward appearance. I'm quite confident that nothing joepardizes my femmeness including topping versus bottoming.

[Locutus]

Fancy meeting you here!



I am femme and I am attracted to masculine looking butches - it's just a preference and it makes me hot.
The only aspects of masculine that I don't particularly care for are the negative ones in which they have been used to oppress or put down someone due to some kind of sense of superiority and/or entitlement.
The rest of it - whatever floats your boat...
I am femme but I don't identify or fit with the stereotypical charactersitics other than perhaps my outward appearance. I'm quite confident that nothing joepardizes my femmeness including topping versus bottoming.

[WickedFemme]

Fancy meeting you here!

Hey you! :threadjack:
lol