What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Medusa]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's


This is the Trans zone on a Feminist website.

Some Transmen have lived as Lesbians. Some Lesbians date Transmen.

Many of the Tranmen here are interested in teasing apart their lives as men and the intersections of Feminist principles with where they have come from and where they are going. Some Transmen are Feminists.

We're interconnected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reading posts about Lesbians" but posts about women and the oppression of women are not the same as posts about Lesbians.

[QueenofSmirks]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's


Ok, I'll bite - which post(s) are you referring to?

[Martina]

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

-- Why not? --

[macele]

these two quotes should be in the minds and hearts of every person in the universe. there would be a lot less of so many hurtful things said and thought.

I don't want us to be so quick to judge rather than discuss. -- Medusa

Because people are not absolutes. -- Medusa

[femmsational]

julie!

I appreciate you!

I am trying to think about how my real-time interactions have gone down when this type of conversation comes up.

Like, I look at Snowy and Grant and can see such an affection there. Such love for one another. And, like, I could imagine them all cozy in their home and Grant doing what Grant does and Snowy doing what she does. The idealism I have about Snowy and Grant is that they have a very thoughtful relationship so if Snowy busted up in here one day and said something like, "I'm getting all June Clever today and wearing my apron and heels" it might be about role-playing, sexytime, etc. for her.
If Grant came up behind her and posted something like, "Lookit my little woman in the kitchen where she belongs!"...well, first I would probably bust out laughing at the adorableness of it all and then I would be absolutely comfortable knowing that Grant is playing with Snowy in a way that is true and comfortable for them.
Consensual.

I think a lot of this is coming down to consent for me. Like, I think you and Brutal get to consent to any kind of dynamic you want with one another and I celebrate the fact that you both have found each other in a way that feels fufilling and right.

I think I am orbiting around how it can feel nonconsensual and disempowering when people say things that feel like "Femmes belong in the kitchen" or "Im in the kitchen because its my place" or "Transmen know how to open doors".

Those are, of course, super black and white examples but I think about how Jack and I have the kind of dynamic that means I do all of the cooking and she does all of the yard stuff and vehicle maintenane. That isn't because we subcribe to the patriarchal bullcrap, but more about what we enjoy as human beings. Maybe I like to cook because I was brought up seeing women valued more if they could roll out a good bundt cake. Maybe Jack likes to do the yard because she saw thought as a child that it was feminizing to have to cook and thus, did what she thought her Daddy would have done (fix the yard and cars).
Those are the kinds of things we've had to examine because again, those markers we are given as children (or that we accept as children) come from jacked up idealism.
Doesn't mean I'm going to quit enjoying cooking because it might be seen as a patriarchal design, just means that I have awareness that I might have made different choices about what I enjoy had I been given a different playing field as a child. (and edited to add that I wanted to be clear I am not at all implying this is what I think of you or that you havent thought about anything, just talking about me!)

I so wholeheartedly agree with you about sloppy language here. I see that happening a lot with people who mean no harm but who may not have thought about where it all comes from. We're all in different places and at different levels of evolution around our stuff so I can accept that we'll have those moments as long as we're all open to learning from them.

I think when you say "It makes me feel really good to cook for my guy", there's not a damn thing wrong with that. I think if we caught our community moving toward the idea of "June Clever is who my Femme needs to be", then we need to be asking ourselves why our Femme isn't fine the way she is. I've had to do a lot of dismantling around that myself after coming out as Femme on the Dash all those years ago and thinking that all Femmes wore glitter, heels, and full makeup when vacuuming the house!! LOL.

I also think that there is a certain level of idealism around the June Clever stuff that can be independant of "the 50s were the best time ever!!". I was telling Snowy that I like to hold up the Huxtables (a family of Color where the wife, Claire, was a powerful attorney and ran her family with dignity and grace) or The Conners from Roseanne (class issues!) and say "Why do we look at the Clevers as the cornerstone of family when we have other examples?".
I think some of it comes down to privilege (or has for me anyway) and also some of it is just flat-out idealism.
I thought the Huxtables were the baddest ass family around when I grew up watching them but they were not as sanitized as the Clever show. The Huxtables dealt with issues like death, teenage pregnancy, drugs, etc. that felt very real to me. I know the Clever show was in a different time but I almost wonder if some of the Ga-Ga around it is escapist (here comes the kink again!).

Yes and some more hell yes. I agree.

I think anytime anyone trys to say that all of anything is the way to go, there is a huge problem. And hearing things like....a femme should be the cooker in the family...always. Or, my butch better change my oil or he's/she's not my butch, or even A butch, is beyond ignorant.


In threads like this, when sentiments such as those above are expressed I feel like clawing my eyes out cause it makes me ashamed that some of what floats my boat, will be lumped into THAT sort of thinking.

I agree with you that perhaps the problem lies in the way things said, AND the way things are called out. When something as silly as all femmes fluff pillows is said, instead of jumping in with the assumtion that EVERYONE who drops their knickers over this sort of "kink" (gah) feels the same way, maybe we can be more careful in the language we choose to call that out.

I think for me, it's the lazyness in thought and language IN GENERAL that tweeks my nose.

I shouldn't generalize when talking about me anymore than those calling something out should generalize about what's being called out.

I mean really??? Who's fucking business is it what individuals do in their own home??? Why does there need to be judgement. Frankly, anybody who can own there own selfs, without trying to beat their ideas into others heads as the only right way to be.....those are the people that drop my knickers.


This is a general plea....can we all try to be more specific and me based when talking about our yummies. PLEASE.


Now off to mull on lazy language.


I appreciate you too. Especially right now cause I'm WAY over excited about the reunion and you make that happen. I'll be over it tomorrow hopefully and will be back to my normally cranky self.

julie


PS....fully admiting that I may have been sloppy and lazy in my language in this post. I have a major headache coming on. If so, I'll re-explain if needed.

[femmsational]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's



Really??? To me this is one big fucked up family. Everybody posts everywhere.


I think we should be more careful if we are.....visiting places that don't belong to us specifically. But I am gonna end up posting all over the place cause I'm pushy like that.

j

[DMW]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

With this, as a transman, i have to say...i agree with the sentiment. I understand this because.. it kind of feels like a violation of what should be
considered a safe space for transmen to share themselves without feeling picked apart by others that do not necessarily agree with how we feel or what we need or what we desire.
I also, understand that we are all sharing the same space and i have,myself, violated butch or femme spaces. I am not saying i feel victimized but, maybe there is a better space for certain posts or threads.

This is the Trans zone on a Feminist website.

Some Transmen have lived as Lesbians. Some Lesbians date Transmen.

Many of the Tranmen here are interested in teasing apart their lives as men and the intersections of Feminist principles with where they have come from and where they are going. Some Transmen are Feminists.

We're interconnected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reading posts about Lesbians" but posts about women and the oppression of women are not the same as posts about Lesbians.

This too, i agree with. I must say, however, personally, as a transman, i never identified as a lesbian because to me that felt like "girl" being labeled or forced to identify as a "girl" which was forced on me enough throughout my personal evolution. Thank God I had my boundaries and my limits though. So, i am personally offended by being called girl or lesbian just because i am who i am. And i had to fight for that as a child growing up...and then later in my life.
There is no need for an apology from anyone. It is just how i feel personally.
I am sure that not all Transmen feel the way i do. So, to each his own really.
Additionally, i do NOT think of the words "girl or lesbian" in a derogatory or demeaning way.
I love women. Most of them anyway.

I have been told by partners and women who know me well that i am more of a feminists than they are. The oppression of women is unacceptable...Oppression of anyone is acceptable really.
Unless, those people have done something
to harm others or they continue to be harmful to society at large....

I am one that needs to be careful about what and how i write here. I do not
write as well as i used to. So, i know that i have offended people here. I don't mean to.

[Medusa]

So, i am personally offended by being called girl or lesbian just because i am who i am. There is no need for an apology. It is just how i feel personally.
.


Dmw- Did you read me as saying that you, DMW, are a girl or a lesbian?

[BrutalDaddy]

I too can see where Guy was coming from. Maybe just not worded like that. For me, because I do get that this site, as a whole, is a space for ALL folks of the queer/gay/feminist/trans way of life.

Kinda like having a subdivision among a city. Each having their own "subdivision" to go to when wanting to be around folks who are even more like them than in general.

As much as I know society (if society would allow me the pleasure of being male, which it doesn't) could and would label me a "straight male" once I am able to fully transition, I don't think I could ever see myself or feel like a straight/heterosexual male. Reason being is because I have walked in the shoes of being female. Not just female bodied but female mind too because I was sort of a late bloomer. Lol. I didn't know or understand about transitioning, FTMs, hormone therapy, surgeries, etc. until a few years back. I honestly and truly believed I was just fucked up inside when it came to being okay with myself. Like wires got crossed when I was being born.

So for years I walked as a female. Whether by choice or just plain cause I had no choice, I did it. Now I find myself sometimes being "overly male" to make up for all the years I had to be female. Yes, that falls back to societial teachings put upon me as a child. I work on it daily.

I guess the reason I just verbally spilled all the above is to simply say I have no issues with female ided butches coming into my "subdivision" to talk nor do I have an issue going into their "subdivision" (they might though! Lol). Because I feel like even though I am FTM, I belong in some sense because I have walked that journey. I know what its like on both sides of the aisle. Only time I feel intrusion is if I get told that the way I choose to live my life with my wife is wrong because it perpetuates isms and oppressions. Really? I know history. Hell my wife has a degree in history so what I don't know, she does. Lol. I just want to live our life as we both want to and others live their life as they see fit. That's all.

Anyway, I've blabbered enough I think and will finish this now because there is some fucking idiot trucker standing over my shoulder wanting to know what kinda book am I writing. He's even trying to read this!


Totally Rude Truckers Out There,
Brute.

P.S. If I don't make much sense please excuse me. I'm in middle of a truck stop with folks walking all around me and one really REALLY nosey driver who thinks it's okay to read folks' private shit. So if you need clarification, will give it soon as I can. :)

[femmsational]

Anyway, I've blabbered enough I think and will finish this now because there is some fucking idiot trucker standing over my shoulder wanting to know what kinda book am I writing. He's even trying to read this!


Totally Rude Truckers Out There,
Brute.



Total and complete derail alert.


LOL!! Tell him you are writing an article about penis transplant. Does he have one to donate. You even accept the small ones.


God!!

[BrutalDaddy]

Total and complete derail alert.


LOL!! Tell him you are writing an article about penis transplant. Does he have one to donate. You even accept the small ones.


God!!


He'll need a penis transplant if he touches my laptop again.


End Of Derail,
Brute.

[DMW]

Dmw- Did you read me as saying that you, DMW, are a girl or a lesbian?

No, not at all. That is why i said that there was no need for an apology from anyone. I am and was not offended by what you said. I guess to clarify...i was speaking in general,personal, terms. I don't feel that you were calling me girl or lesbian. I am trying to point out my personal feelings regarding being a transman. I never identified with being lesbian is all that i was, and am, trying to explain or convey.

[Medusa]

Brutal - I liked what you just said about having walked and lived as a Female.

I think that was the crux of what makes us acccessible to each other is that we all honor what we have as a shared context. While some folks on this site don't identify as female on any level, I would say that 100% of the folks on this site were either born as female, raised as a female, or have lived as females at some point in their lives.

That is one of the pieces of glue that makes us recognizeable to each other.

I appreciate that you are willing to share that part of yourself rather than shut it down or act like it never existed. It goes a long, LONG way in helping us understand one another!!

[Medusa]

Wanted to edit this to my last post but will just add here:

I also think what you said about this site being different neighborhoods of a sort is valuable. The different threads we have here go a long way in helping contain conversations and act like neighborhoods in a city where we have all agreed to live (by posting here).

I do think that we can sometimes hear the next block over having a party and want to join in. Especially if they are playing good music or arguing about who's cat craps on who's lawn. I do think there is a reason that a lot of Transmen might choose to hang out on this site versus go to a site that is exclusively for Transmen and it might go back to that whole shared context thing. Because not only have some Transmen lived as women, but some of them (and a great many of them on this site) have lived as Butches.

The thing I have seen in threads over the years is that if Femmes are having a thread about something specific to them, let's say Femme invisibility, people of other genders are pretty good about policing themselves out of the discussion. I do think that folks of other genders would chime in if one of the Femmes posted something like "I feel more invisible around Transmen and here's why". A Transman might read that and think "oh bull shit" or they might want to engage simply for understanding.

I hope you guys don't feel intruded upon. This conversation has been so valuable and has really helped a lot of folks (me included!) and further than that, I hope that it doesnt feel like an intrusion when folks call out problematic stuff but rather we can look at is as an opportunity to learn from one another.

[BrutalDaddy]

Brutal - I liked what you just said about having walked and lived as a Female.

I think that was the crux of what makes us acccessible to each other is that we all honor what we have as a shared context. While some folks on this site don't identify as female on any level, I would say that 100% of the folks on this site were either born as female, raised as a female, or have lived as females at some point in their lives.

That is one of the pieces of glue that makes us recognizeable to each other.

I appreciate that you are willing to share that part of yourself rather than shut it down or act like it never existed. It goes a long, LONG way in helping us understand one another!!


No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all. :)

[BullDog]

I'm not Medusa- obviously! :) - but I do have a response to this.

From what I saw, I think what got some feathers ruffled is not the lifestyle and dynamic of your relationship, but rather that that type of lifestyle/dynamic was referred to (by others? - frankly I don't remember the phrase you used) as "50's lifestyle" or "good ole days" -- eras which include a lot of really offensive stuff. As I said in an earlier post, I get what you meant, but I think what you're really saying is you live a representational segment of another time (i.e. traditional binary gender roles), not a lifestyle that represents that whole time period. It's easier just to say "the 50's",but that can be a misrepresentation of what you really meant.

I'm not condoning people jumping all over your ass for it, I do think there is a better way to have a discussion, with clearer language.

Edited to add: I don't think anyone has the right to define for anyone else the dynamic of their relationship,or make judgments on it, regardless of how "wrong" they think it is. To each their own. I also agree that blanket statements suck, and ideals and values and descriptions should never be applied across the board to any group, as others have stated, i.e. "a real man does x, a real femme does y."

QueenofSmirks, I think you get the gist of what some people find troubling, but I would like to know where anyone jumped anyone's ass and where the language is not clear- because I am certainly not seeing it.

The discussion about the good ole June Cleaver days starts on page 8. I have re-read from that point and see nothing.

I see people being very clear about what they object to and very clear that they are not attacking anyone or their relationship. This is where my big frustration lies- when people do make a very big effort to be specific and clear and we are told we are not and we are told we are attacking people.


I guess the reason I just verbally spilled all the above is to simply say I have no issues with female ided butches coming into my "subdivision" to talk nor do I have an issue going into their "subdivision" (they might though! Lol). Because I feel like even though I am FTM, I belong in some sense because I have walked that journey. I know what its like on both sides of the aisle. Only time I feel intrusion is if I get told that the way I choose to live my life with my wife is wrong because it perpetuates isms and oppressions. Really? I know history. Hell my wife has a degree in history so what I don't know, she does. Lol. I just want to live our life as we both want to and others live their life as they see fit. That's all.

Brutal, I bolded part of your post. Where specifically has that happened?

Medusa, not sure if your p.s was aimed at me, but I repped you instead of posting because your Moderating post said this discussion should be moved to another thread, so I didn't think I was allowed to comment. Now it appears the discussion is continuing.

[Nomad]

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***

[femmsational]

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***


I feel the same way. LOL!! It would be funny if it were not so NOT funny!!!


:confused:

[BrutalDaddy]

Would like to add one more thing if I may.

It can get hard for me sometimes because if I go to a place/subdivision where it is exclusively about femmes (as example) then I will post about femmes and leave out the rest of the rainbow, so to speak. If someone gets all pissy because I left out a group then I see that as being on them. Not me. I am visiting a "subdivision" that is all about the femmes. If I visit a "subdivision" that's about the FTMs then I'll post about them and usually them alone. Same goes for female ided butches, etc.

I live in a world that is too politically correct for my taste so when I come here, I try to make damn sure that where I'm posting (the subdivision) is exclusive to that part of the rainbow. If I try to include everyone, I'll spend all damn day typing and more inlikely forget someone. Lol. While I know and understand exclusion, I don't see it as such considering it's about a specific group and not the rainbow as a whole.

So Nomad, thank you for your post because it brought that thought up and wanted to share it. Thanks.


Food For Thought,
Brute.

[*Anya*]

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all. :)

I don't think I have read a post before that has touched me so.

Brutal, that you own that part of yourself, the female experience (whatever that means to and for you) and chose not to erase it, in spite of the pain that it has caused you in your life; says so much about you as a person.

I admire you greatly for this.

[QueenofSmirks]

QueenofSmirks, I think you get the gist of what some people find troubling, but I would like to know where anyone jumped anyone's ass and where the language is not clear- because I am certainly not seeing it.

The discussion about the good ole June Cleaver days starts on page 8. I have re-read from that point and see nothing.

I see people being very clear about what they object to and very clear that they are not attacking anyone or their relationship. This is where my big frustration lies- when people do make a very big effort to be specific and clear and we are told we are not and we are told we are attacking people.


I'll have to go back through the thread when I'm not doing this by cell phone to respond to the first part of your first paragraph above re: ass jumping, (which could be mistaken for a new fetish, if taken out of context).

As to the second part of that paragraph - about not being clear - I referenced it in 2 different posts. I talked about using phrases like "the good ole days" and "50's housewife" to describe a relationship that consists of traditional binary gender roles, which is probably only representative of about 2% of what that time period was all about, which would be a misrepresentation of the relationship being described. So, if you missed that, I'll try to find the links to those specific posts.

As to the last paragraph - I disagree. I see some people were very clear about not attacking anyone, and some not so clear. So, if you decided to take my statement and apply it to everyone including yourself, i.e. your use of "we", then I can see why we disagree. However, I did see some rather snarky responses and comments from people who were NOT clear, and mistook the INTENTION of some people's use of certain phrases and terms, and decided to make all sorts of assumptions and run with it. So, with that said, I stand behind my post.

[Nomad]

Would like to add one more thing if I may.

It can get hard for me sometimes because if I go to a place/subdivision where it is exclusively about femmes (as example) then I will post about femmes and leave out the rest of the rainbow, so to speak. If someone gets all pissy because I left out a group then I see that as being on them. Not me. I am visiting a "subdivision" that is all about the femmes. If I visit a "subdivision" that's about the FTMs then I'll post about them and usually them alone. Same goes for female ided butches, etc.


yes. this was my original thought too. i'm not excluding anyone. i'm commenting on the topic at hand.

I live in a world that is too politically correct for my taste so when I come here, I try to make damn sure that where I'm posting (the subdivision) is exclusive to that part of the rainbow. If I try to include everyone, I'll spend all damn day typing and more inlikely forget someone. Lol. While I know and understand exclusion, I don't see it as such considering it's about a specific group and not the rainbow as a whole.

yes. it's exhausting to worry about who's going to be pissed because i didnt include them. it's equally maddening to find that there's an assumption that i'm doing something purposely when i've simply made a mistake or a misstep.


So Nomad, thank you for your post because it brought that thought up and wanted to share it. Thanks.


Food For Thought,
Brute.

me in blue

and thanks for sharing your thoughts. i appreciate your clearer version of my own scattered and somewhat whiny post

[BullDog]

QueenofSmirks, thank you for your reply! I still don't quite understand, but don't want you to have to use up your time to dredge through stuff unless you want to. I think the part of not being specific was not about people who had objections.

Nomad, I have no idea why you feel the need to walk on eggshells. People do not get offended at every little thing. People have been quite specific about what is bothering them.

Brutal and Femmsational, I have never once thought of you as a couple that follow any sort of stereotypical patterns at all. I think you are quite unique and have no idea why you would think I thought you were anything but that.

The whole lesbian thing... wow... ok then. Just in case anyone is indirectly referring to my post about lesbian feminist household- that was me saying that even lesbian households may have some dynamics and/or division of labor that may look stereotypical- as in me taking out the garbage and my femme partner cooking. We just don't aspire to some past era to do so.

The next time I hear mention of June Clever I will just keep my mouth shut and go read Snow's thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***



Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

[femmsational]

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

Yet, if it's felt by more than one person, and expressed respectfully...should we maybe look at that? Tease that out a bit??

Curious really.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yet, if it's felt by more than one person, and expressed respectfully...should we maybe look at that? Tease that out a bit??

Curious really.



No one is instilling fear into the thread, what has happened is people have stated different views. It's common for people to start claiming that "they are afraid" I am not saying Nomad was saying that, but her words can be and obviously have been interpreted that way.


I've lost count of how many people have referred to me as scary or have gone to say how afraid they are to post because I posted. I wanted to clarify why I said what I said.

[Guy]

Just wanted to clarify my post earlier since I wrote it in a hurry as I was on my way out the door.

I agree that we should all be able to go into any thread or forum on this site. However, I think, if you go into a thread that does not pertain to your lifestyle, then you need to keep an open mind while reading, and be respectful of that lifestyle while posting.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Just wanted to clarify my post earlier since I wrote it in a hurry as I was on my way out the door.

I agree that we should all be able to go into any thread or forum on this site. However, I think, if you go into a thread that does not pertain to your lifestyle, then you need to keep an open mind while reading, and be respectful of that lifestyle while posting.



That same expectation should pertain to people posting in that particular lifestyle thread.


It's really easy to state what one's desires/needs/wants are without having to shit down the necks of others.


I believe that is what is being discussed here, I certainly do not have a say so on what rocks anyone's relationship boat, I don't like it when folks do it to me so I am pretty adamant about respecting other's likes/desires/needs/wants/dynamics, matter of fact I say RAWK ON!!!

[Nomad]

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.


this is completely fair. thank you for pointing it out Lady Snow. i did not intend to create negative or ugly circumstances. my tone was not inflammatory in my head. (is it ever?) :)

you've given me the chance to consider my state of mind when i made that post. i wasnt feeling singled out or disagreed with or attacked. i did not mean to indicate that anyone was being unfair with regard to something i'd said, done, expressed or otherwise. i was actually worried about not being clear or thought of as disrespectful if i wasnt all inclusive because i sometimes feel that that's the way the threads are leaning.

i should have said that i am nervous, rather than afraid --- nervous to be seen as being excluding or othering if i dont include everyone in the things i appreciate about FtMs. i have felt recently that there are those who mistake things like "I like ABC about unicorns" as an indication that the poster didnt think or acknowledge that zebras and tortoises also did ABC. if the forum is dedicated to unicorns, i comment about unicorns. it doesnt mean that i dont also love zebras.

thank you for rattling my cage. i like it when people do that. and for the record, i've never been afraid of You. inspired, yes. unsettled, yes. challenged, yes. treated fairly, yes. verklempt, yes. hot and bothered, yes. but never even once afraid. :bouquet:

[QueenofSmirks]

Just wanted to clarify my post earlier since I wrote it in a hurry as I was on my way out the door.

I agree that we should all be able to go into any thread or forum on this site. However, I think, if you go into a thread that does not pertain to your lifestyle, then you need to keep an open mind while reading, and be respectful of that lifestyle while posting.

Hi Guy,

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but I'm interested in knowing where you feel people in here were being disrespectful? Actually, to be more specific, are you implying that people were being disrespectful to trans folks? If so, in which way? I'm not saying it didn't happen, but my focus was elsewhere.

[Guy]

Hi Stephanie,


I think by being condecending towards the fifties lifestyle, just because someone does not agree with it, is disrespectful.

[Martina]

I wasn't condescending toward it. I am fine with it unless you or someone thinks it is something to be promoted, some ideal to be emulated. You want to recommend to your daughter that she should defer to her husband because he is a guy?

[BullDog]

Well thanks Guy for the clarification. In terms of FTM and trans people, they don't all share the same views or live the same way, so I don't understand the connection with FTMS and 50s lifestyle and how that would be disrespectful to FTMS and trans people. None of my objections have anything to do with any specific gender or any individual relationships at all.

[Guy]

I think this going back and forth is leading to another derail. I am done.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think this going back and forth is leading to another derail. I am done.




It's not a contest, it's a discussion that needed to be had that has now evolved into another thread with lots of value.

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle. I am unsure why this is so hard to understand or how it can be communicated any further.

[Guy]

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle


It sure feels that way to me, and I am sure I am not alone in this, as other members have tried to explain why they are "afraid" to post or feel "judged" for their lifestyle.

[The_Lady_Snow]

No one that I know of or am aware of is attempting to police how you or anyone else is living their lifestyle


It sure feels that way to me, and I am sure I am not alone in this, as other members have tried to explain why they are "afraid" to post or feel "judged" for their lifestyle.




No one has done these things, I promise I have looked. I know that I personally have not come from that space.

I still don't get the whole "afraid" scenario, it's odd to me because no one in here has been frightening, mean or scary..

I am truly trying to understand where this assumption has rooted from.

[Guy]

I don't really have anything else to say about this. I didn't say you (Snow) personally.

[LeftWriteFemme]

This is open to all !

What is it that attracts you to Ftms or Mtf and if there are some turn offs as well . Why you would or wouldn't consider dating or being in a relationship with etc ...

Looking forward to reading your thoughts :)



There is an exuberance that I feel in my attraction to the Ftms and TG Butches that I am endeared to that I simply never feel with anyone else. Somehow it brings out in me an enthusiasm for life, for sex, for being the girl that I am. It makes me want to sing this song to Hym.........

rUq4gubpdNo
and trust me I never feel that desire with bio men, women or other girls.... :cheesy:

I don't think I can explain it any better than that.

[DMW]

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all. :)

Brutal, i read this and i had to stop right there...because i have an issue with a word that you used in your post.Shame. One word. I did not want to respond to your post here, in public, how i felt or why i was bothered by it.
First, because i didn't (and don't now) want to hurt your feelings, or embarrass you, or take away from the true heartfelt feelings that you had to share with everyone here. I thank you for what you shared.

Two, because it is so personal and i appreciate how difficult it can be to open up to a public forum. Lastly, i wanted other people to hear the important parts of your message and what you had to convey and i didn't want to stir the pot unecessarily. You said it so well and i didn't
want to take away from the positive response that you received or draw away from that attention. (just for my beef with the one word.) I still don't want the attention or the work it takes to follow up on posts.

I share many similar feelings. I will not claim them to be the same as yours because i want to be clear that these are just my personal feelings.

it is a fact, for me, that the denial of my past is not congruent with the whole of who i really am today. Therefore, for me, it can be such a struggle, sometimes, to whip my cock out to perfect strangers and then be frustrated as to why the hell it should matter to anyone other than a woman i would be intimate with. In some cases it does matter.i.e. for personal safety...is one reason. There are different reasons why i do come out to the public.

However, it usually has to be decided or when and if i feel that it is necessary. The word shame bothers me because I personally am not ashamed of who i was as a butch or a girl growing up. nor, am i ashamed of being an FTM. I wasn't in control of how i was born
I don't believe you are ashamed either because of what you posted. And i am not going to assume that you are ashamed that you were once female.
I am not sure.

Shame is not a good word to use. Nor, is it a good feeling. To me, the word shame implies blame. As if, i should be ashamed of who i once was because i was female. And to be ashamed of who i was...would imply that i should be ashamed of who i am now.
In addition, shame could imply that i have done something wrong. And i have not done anything wrong when it comes to me and my own evolution. And i wholeheartedly refute that with a passion. And to be honest, sometimes this is reason enough to come out to the public or a person. Also, being female is not something to be ashamed of either. So, that also has to be explained and defended. It isn't easy either.

Embarrassed or shy to come out to the public or to a person...is another word and emotion entirely.

I hope that I have not offended you by sharing my feelings here, if i have...i will apologize in advance. And thank you for sharing Brutal. I just don't want you to be ashamed or to own that shame. It is not yours to own. Nor mine.

DMW

And talk about derailing a thread...i have drerailed this thread myself. SHeeet.

[DMW]

And then, there is the other stuff...i don't know if i want to try and go back to grasp those feelings again and then to understand them and then to explain that right now. I don't know if i have the energy for it. Nor, the right words to do so in order to be effective.

OMG..that is so funny...ok...ok...i am listening to the song now....omg that is funny.
Thank God for femmes. A peacock hugh? too damn good. too damn apropo...Love it

[Nadeest]

Um, Guy, with all due respect, there are transwomen that are lesbians. Therefore, by definition, why wouldn't there be posts about lesbians that happen to be transwomen in the Trans zone?

To be fair, though, this particular thread is NOT about transwomen; rather, it is about what attracts someone to transmen. Please remember us transwomen in the future, though. Thanks
This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

[femmsational]

No one is instilling fear into the thread, what has happened is people have stated different views. It's common for people to start claiming that "they are afraid" I am not saying Nomad was saying that, but her words can be and obviously have been interpreted that way.


I've lost count of how many people have referred to me as scary or have gone to say how afraid they are to post because I posted. I wanted to clarify why I said what I said.


Snow! I'm so not ignoring your post!! My head is giving me fits right now and because I just blabbed all over this thread about language, I really should wait this head ache out.

Also, I should have not posted to you about teasing out anything cause I didn't mean the scared of part. But that's how it appears....sloppy I was...


I promise to get back to you when I'm not scrambled so bad!!!




j

[GraffitiBoi]

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

First, let me put a little disclaimer in here: I am only referring to myself when I post my reponse here and I intend no disrespect to anyone who disagrees or sees things differently than I do.

That being said... I am a post top-op FTM. I also consider myself genderqueer because I don't always feel completely male and I have no interest in lower surgery. I do refer to myself as a lesbian at times, although queer may be a more accurate term. So my question is (again, no disrespect intended) why shouldn't an FTM who also considers himself a lesbian post in the trans zone? Still trans, just uses a different label than some other FTMs? Plus, although I am FTM, my past girlfriends still considered, and referred, to themselves as lesbians. They just happen to be lesbians who were in love with a transman.

Another point to consider is many FTMs are just starting their journey and may not be comfortable stepping outside of the lesbian label, and some may never be comfortable stepping outside of that label. Many of them are in lesbian relationships and are happy that way. It doesn't mean they are not trans and it doesn't mean they shouldn't feel comfortable posting in the trans zone. Trans is trans regardless of where on the trans spectrum you are and regardless if you call yourself a lesbian or not. Transgender no longer refers to transforming from one gender to solely another. It now includes a very very wide umbrella of people.

Sorry - just had to throw in my 2 cents.

-A lesbian transman

[femmsational]

Brutal, i read this and i had to stop right there...because i have an issue with a word that you used in your post.Shame. One word. I did not want to respond to your post here, in public, how i felt or why i was bothered by it.
First, because i didn't (and don't now) want to hurt your feelings, or embarrass you, or take away from the true heartfelt feelings that you had to share with everyone here. I thank you for what you shared.

Two, because it is so personal and i appreciate how difficult it can be to open up to a public forum. Lastly, i wanted other people to hear the important parts of your message and what you had to convey and i didn't want to stir the pot unecessarily. You said it so well and i didn't
want to take away from the positive response that you received or draw away from that attention. (just for my beef with the one word.) I still don't want the attention or the work it takes to follow up on posts.

I share many similar feelings. I will not claim them to be the same as yours because i want to be clear that these are just my personal feelings.

it is a fact, for me, that the denial of my past is not congruent with the whole of who i really am today. Therefore, for me, it can be such a struggle, sometimes, to whip my cock out to perfect strangers and then be frustrated as to why the hell it should matter to anyone other than a woman i would be intimate with. In some cases it does matter.i.e. for personal safety...is one reason. There are different reasons why i do come out to the public.

However, it usually has to be decided or when and if i feel that it is necessary. The word shame bothers me because I personally am not ashamed of who i was as a butch or a girl growing up. nor, am i ashamed of being an FTM. I wasn't in control of how i was born
I don't believe you are ashamed either because of what you posted. And i am not going to assume that you are ashamed that you were once female.
I am not sure.

Shame is not a good word to use. Nor, is it a good feeling. To me, the word shame implies blame. As if, i should be ashamed of who i once was because i was female. And to be ashamed of who i was...would imply that i should be ashamed of who i am now.
In addition, shame could imply that i have done something wrong. And i have not done anything wrong when it comes to me and my own evolution. And i wholeheartedly refute that with a passion. And to be honest, sometimes this is reason enough to come out to the public or a person. Also, being female is not something to be ashamed of either. So, that also has to be explained and defended. It isn't easy either.

Embarrassed or shy to come out to the public or to a person...is another word and emotion entirely.

I hope that I have not offended you by sharing my feelings here, if i have...i will apologize in advance. And thank you for sharing Brutal. I just don't want you to be ashamed or to own that shame. It is not yours to own. Nor mine.

DMW

And talk about derailing a thread...i have drerailed this thread myself. SHeeet.


I know I'm not Brute and I know my brain is scrambled BUT.....lol


The shame he was talking about is not general. It's specific to certain...things that have happened TO him in his journey to him.

I'll leave it at that I just thought that might help understand it wasn't shame of the journey. He may have more to say after he parks his truck.



....must shut up julie!!!

[girl_dee]

Just read back a few pages and i've noticed (and not just in this thread) that when the old *go post in your own thread* comes out is only when something is posted that is not agreed upon or when isms are called out.

Again not just this thread and just an observation.

[Hominid]

The reason I rarely, if ever get involved in threads like this - or even bother to read through them is this: it is f-ing impossible to qualify what you have to offer of *yourself* without offending someone. In fact, the qualifying is tedious.

Obviously people speak only from their own experience, as themselves.

And it's a forum, meaning anyone who feels s/he has something to contribute should. Some people are a-holes. Some are misunderstood. Some are early in h/is process, or young, or insecure, and project their own "shoulds", even inadvertently, and although it is judgmental, the person hasn't the capacity to recognize it.

While semantics and language are important, it is equally important to understand from where a person is coming rather than to fixate on wording.

All I really know is it's tiresome when a conversation about a complex subject ends up with people quoting, quoting and quoting again to clarify, defend, etc. We're all on the same side - we all seek community, and while there is room for disagreement, it should not be about things insanely personal, like how we choose to define ourselves, feel, or be. We get enough crap from the rest of the world, if anyone should be able to respect the members of this vast planet, we should. Even if we are just understanding that someone is extremely touchy about language. And for those extremely touchy about language - the same - understand that there is NO way, without a paragraph drawn up by an attorney, to write about these topics in a way that doesn't offend someone.

In a way, it's all silly, and prevents real communication.

[BullDog]

I grew up in the 1960's not 1950s but my mother was basically June Cleaver- not pearls and heels, but she was a housewife with 3 kids. She got a scholarship to go to college but got married instead. When my father got abusive she really had no way out- no way to support her children- not to mention all of the Christian and societal upbringing. So the June Cleaver/50's ideal hits me in the gut and not in a good way. I also feel it is uplifting white upper middle class as "the ideal" over everything else.

I feel no one has attacked but big charges have been made and when we ask for clarification we really don't get any and are told we are making people scared to post and to get out.

I think there is a better place to have this discussion and it is happening now in another thread. Sorry if I intruded but it hits me in the gut hard.

[Greyson]

I think there is a misperception, assumption that Transmen, masculine, and/or male identified people are in denial, cut off, ashamed or terribly traumatized from their experience of being born into a female body and socialized in various degrees to align with society's idea of what a female body person "should" think and act.

I have been posting for a few years now about this stuff and if you read carefully what I say, never have I said I was the same as a cisgender man. I know there are others with similar thoughts and I know there are Transmen that do not feel or think the same.

I do think there are times when masculine and male identified butches and Transmen are dealt with in a way that reeks of a double standard. For example, if I were to come in and talk about how I wanted a wife I believe my using the term "wife" would rub many the wrong way. There would be an assumption that my idea of a wife is not equal in the power structure. If a femme expresses a desire for a wife, it is assumed the power dynamic will be equal and misogyny or the patriarchical belief systems are not in play.

This is not to say that misogyny does not exist. It does exist and it is incumbent on all of us to do our work. Much of it is interalized and we may not even be aware of it. It is not excuse to continue living in ignorance. We all have work to do.

[QueenofSmirks]

Hi Stephanie,


I think by being condecending towards the fifties lifestyle, just because someone does not agree with it, is disrespectful.

I realize we're sort of shutting down this part of the discussion, but I'll just add that I agree being condescending toward anyone could be considered disrespectful; but I didn't see the connection between that and this being in the trans zone, and your reference to the lifestyle, that's all. I just wanted to understand where your comment was coming from.

[BrutalDaddy]

Okay, got Ursula parked for the night, finally.


DMV, Julie pretty much hit the nail on the head with the use of the word shame, for me.

There were specific incidents, growing up as a female but feeling/knowing something just was not right with me, that caused the shame. It's not something I'll talk about out in the open but it's not something I will put away forever either because it is a part of the journey I've taken to get here. I gotta take the good with the bad. Lol.

I can honestly say that Julie has played a very very major role in me finally being totally okay with aligning my outside with my inside. I don't think she realizes that though. A lot of it comes from the religious upbringing and family that I come from. Yet they all adore Julie. Hell my own granny forced us to have a shot gun wedding at her house. My mom, in the past year or two, has started calling me, "her son". Most of the above has happened because they see that someone like me, a FTM, can be loved and accepted by another. That I'm not just some freak of nature or worse yet, someone who enjoys "dancing with the Devil" just to be the black sheep of the family.

Oh lordy, that was a derail if there ever was one but felt the need to share that. I guess what it boils down to is this....I am so damn grateful for threads like this because it's nice to be reminded every now and then why someone like myself could and would be appreciated, and not just by their lover/wife/spouse/partner or family. ;)


Y'all Rock For Now,
Brute.


P.S. Snow, you scare me all the time. Just sayin'. *grinning*

[Bèsame*]

The honesty they share, the emotions they have about themselves, the energy they project.

Ranch house is a plus as well:)

[VintageFemme]

Their courage, strength of heart & spirit, the will to be true to who they are in the face of much bigotry, adversity and misunderstanding. And physically for me, just their sheer hottiness. Mhmmm.

[DMW]

Humm...i am pondering on this now...all of the derails...including some of my own...wondering if i should put my feelings in here...this space where people are supposed to be able to say what attracts them to people. feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...a feeling as if i were cariron for vulchers...nor, do i like feeling or seeing ...especially submissive femmes...going through what must feel somewhat the same...( i am not quite sure) i believe buttons are being pushed when i voice out my honest genuine self (when and as if, i were talking with someone i adored or was being intimate with or a friend or brother that knows me well,but, i am here)...which leads me to suppose i should tamper myself...protect and guard myself with what i say or share...i have to ask myself..how are these people...to understand that...i am not a man that looks at a woman in a demeaning light...or see's her ...as if she belongs in a role that would make her feel badly about herself. If i were to say...damn...what you just said was so fing hot and i would like to bend *** **** *************...better censor myself here...because one...i don't share that well in a public space because...a.) it is sacred to me...how i talk to MY WOMAN...because, to me, she is sacred and so is that bond... and b.) now, i should tamper that down even more.....to darkness...because...i might offend someone for being me... not to mention,this is a space for those who are attracted to ftms to speak... not really me to reply to that... also, with what i say...may be perceived or thought of as "talking down to a woman or being sexist or...i don't know...wrong)...and it could make some women feel badly or trigger them...i suppose..i have to think more about this...i would like to start a new thread...but, i don't know how yet. I have grown tired of feeling like i have to apologize when i am just being myself. It is actually quite disturbing...the feeling like i have to defend myself or others just for being here.

I refuse to pick apart anyone else's previous posts because...i don't want them to feel picked on like carrion either...but, i won't lay down either and i hate to see...anyone lay down when they are just trying to express themselves...

[Hominid]

@dmw -
I commend you on your struggle to be clear, to be heard, to be yourself. It's very hard to be see for who you are in the written word. I learned in another thread (and was summarily smacked down for what other's say routinely) that one just can't take for granted that you will be "heard". The only way I've figured out to do it, if I care enough about the topic to go through the effort, is to use the "sandwich" technique. Put what you have to say between two pieces of metaphorical bread - qualifiers, compliments - something to make clear that what you have to say is just you. Do I resent that? A little. Then again, if it keeps someone from feeling judged or insulted, I suppose it's worth it.

On another note - alluding to the June Cleaver stuff, and somewhat what you have to say about speaking to your mate - I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.

[DMW]

continued from my first post...or be themselves and be accepted for who they are...
it must be difficult to be a moderator here...somewhat like a police state...
I have been around biomales and been offended by what they have said about
women. And i do not remain silent...or let their deragatory or offhand sexist remarks ...go by...unanswered or unquestioned...or without defending that woman..even if i don't know her....or especially if the remark was about women in general. I don't even like revealing this much about myself period. So, i can understand the questions from this site.

That was odd...my computer froze...my memory was full i believe...had to clear out the cache etc.

Hominid, thank you for your post. I agree with you on the necessity to provide a generalized note stating, for example, (my post is only regarding how I feel) in order to avoid offending others. I get that for sure.
And the 50's ....i wasn't sure i was even going to go into trying to explain...i am low on energy also...however, i do like your explanation..it is quite clear. I believe that will help some people.
I appreciate that. For now i sign off.
Cheers

[The_Lady_Snow]

Humm...i am pondering on this now...all of the derails...including some of my own...wondering if i should put my feelings in here...this space where people are supposed to be able to say what attracts them to people. feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...a feeling as if i were cariron for vulchers...nor, do i like feeling or seeing ...especially submissive femmes...


DMW are you implying that you need space to be all of the things above in a thread for people to come in and talk about what attracts them to FTM's?

Are you also implying that the people who have come in here are vultures?? and are you also implying that these vultures are hurting the submissive femme and keeping guys/FTM's from having a pace to be assholes, masculine?

Are you really implying folks have come in here and picked on the guys/FTM's and submissive femmes?

If so. could you point that out?


Thanks..





going through what must feel somewhat the same...( i am not quite sure) i believe buttons are being pushed when i voice out my honest genuine self (when and as if, i were talking with someone i adored or was being intimate with or a friend or brother that knows me well,but, i am here)...which leads me to suppose i should tamper myself...protect and guard myself with what i say or share...i have to ask myself..how are these people...to understand that...i am not a man that looks at a woman in a demeaning light...or see's her ...as if she belongs in a role that would make her feel badly about herself. If i were to say...damn...what you just said was so fing hot and i would like to bend *** **** *************...better censor myself here...because one...i don't share that well in a public space because...a.) it is sacred to me...how i talk to MY WOMAN...because, to me, she is sacred and so is that bond... and b.) now, i should tamper that down even more.....to darkness...because...i might offend someone for being me... not to mention,this is a space for those who are attracted to ftms to speak... not really me to reply to that... also, with what i say...may be perceived or thought of as "talking down to a woman or being sexist or...i don't know...wrong)...and it could make some women feel badly or trigger them...i suppose..i have to think more about this...i would like to start a new thread...but, i don't know how yet. I have grown tired of feeling like i have to apologize when i am just being myself. It is actually quite disturbing...the feeling like i have to defend myself or others just for being here.

I refuse to pick apart anyone else's previous posts because...i don't want them to feel picked on like carrion either...but, i won't lay down either and i hate to see...anyone lay down when they are just trying to express themselves...


DMW would you be so kind and clarify what you meant? Thank you

[The_Lady_Snow]

@dmw -
I commend you on your struggle to be clear, to be heard, to be yourself. It's very hard to be see for who you are in the written word. I learned in another thread (and was summarily smacked down for what other's say routinely) that one just can't take for granted that you will be "heard". The only way I've figured out to do it, if I care enough about the topic to go through the effort, is to use the "sandwich" technique. Put what you have to say between two pieces of metaphorical bread - qualifiers, compliments - something to make clear that what you have to say is just you. Do I resent that? A little. Then again, if it keeps someone from feeling judged or insulted, I suppose it's worth it.

On another note - alluding to the June Cleaver stuff, and somewhat what you have to say about speaking to your mate - I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.


People coming in and stating their views and having a conversation is not a "SMACK DOWN"

I am unsure of what thread you are talking about since there are so many here on BFP, but I have yet to see anyone *smacking* anyone have folks been taken to task? Yes Do the isms get called out? Yeap. If you are being harrassed or threatened on BFP you should really really have the Moderators take care of that for you:)

[Soon]

feeling that i would just like to have a space to breathe and be my asshole, masculine, wonderful self and not feel picked at...

Seriously?

I think most of us get enough of this common attitude (both the entitlement and the poor me bits) from men in the real world.

:blink:

[Mike]

waits for the answer

[femmsational]

DMW would you be so kind and clarify what you meant? Thank you

People coming in and stating their views and having a conversation is not a "SMACK DOWN"

I am unsure of what thread you are talking about since there are so many here on BFP, but I have yet to see anyone *smacking* anyone have folks been taken to task? Yes Do the isms get called out? Yeap. If you are being harrassed or threatened on BFP you should really really have the Moderators take care of that for you:)


Ugh!!!

I understand the feeling that some people may have that they are being jumped on. Which was what I was trying to talk to you, Snow, about when my head imploded.

I wasn't talking about the "being scared of" bits because THAT, I don't get. And I've told you a bunch of time that it makes no sense to me why people are scared of you???? :| That's got to suck to hear all the time when all you're here to do is interact with people who you like and and are like you in many ways.

The above responses to me are totally reasonable. I think if someone puts out there that they are feeling attacked, bullied or XYZ...then ask about it. Like you did. No judgement, no attack, just a hey.....can you help me out with this, I don't get it.

However, I do understand why people feel jumped on.....and since I can't multi-quote as well as I'd like, I'm gonna have to finish this in a second post....so stand by....:blush:

[Gemme]

I think some of what we who profess to admire or desire a '50's type dynamic are misunderstood, and also misrepresent. The key is: it's a kink, on some level. It's the idea of what it means to us now - not what it meant then. There was no choice then. There is now. It has become more appealing because there IS a choice. And again, it's taking on the parts that from a distance are appealing, and leaving behind the unpleasantness that made that a reality at one time. Kind of like those folks who are into Medieval Fairs - it's romanticized, far removed from what life was like for the actual participants, and based on an idea, a dynamic, not what it meant to be covered in smallpox scars and be covered in lice, no matter your social status.

I think this is a fair comparison, as Medieval times also were not a shining example of women's rights, nor rights for the less fortunate. No one but the wealthy had rights and I do see the similarity between the two times.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ugh!!!

I understand the feeling that some people may have that they are being jumped on. Which was what I was trying to talk to you, Snow, about when my head imploded.

I wasn't talking about the "being scared of" bits because THAT, I don't get. And I've told you a bunch of time that it makes no sense to me why people are scared of you???? :| That's got to suck to hear all the time when all you're here to do is interact with people who you like and and are like you in many ways.

The above responses to me are totally reasonable. I think if someone puts out there that they are feeling attacked, bullied or XYZ...then ask about it. Like you did. No judgement, no attack, just a hey.....can you help me out with this, I don't get it.

However, I do understand why people feel jumped on.....and since I can't multi-quote as well as I'd like, I'm gonna have to finish this in a second post....so stand by....:blush:



And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...


This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.



We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.


True story.



PS


I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....

[femmsational]

Seriously?

I think most of us get enough of this common attitude (both the entitlement and the poor me bits) from men in the real world.

:blink:

waits for the answer


Please note that I am not trying to call you two out or say that I feel as though I'm being attacked. I am using these two posts as example of my thinking.


So cont......

After Snow, reasonably and justly asks for an explanation, we then get two more posts that could be read as snarky.


Why do I feel that they could be read as snarky??? Cause I remember back to when I was new to posting on these threads, YEARS ago. I was not as well versed on the language, the ideas, the issues surrounding certain parts of these debates as I am now. I didn't know how to express myself in ways that helped other people really hear what I was saying. (shit, still don't know how most of the time.) Because I didn't know HOW to say things in YOUR language, not the language I had known my all my life.

So, my point is, some people who come here really try to make a point and they just are inartful in the way they do it. Some are trying to learn and to those people it could be really scary. They want to interact with other people like them but there is a learning curve that we all have to go through and in that time, it's intimidating. I know I found the dash-site in 2002, didn't post one damn thing for two years cause I read and read and read and realized I had a lot of learning to do before I could express my feelings in an appropriate way. I just hadn't gained the correct language before I found that site. Some people aren't that way. They find us here and really jump in with both feet. But they are trying.


Some, are assholes. Jump at will in my opinion.


Why am I saying all this and quoting the above posts?? Because, *I* wish that when someone asks a person in a thread to please explain what they meant. And asks in a totally appropriate and reasonable way as Snow did.....Can we maybe wait and let the person respond before coming in with posts like the above?

The post that was made was called out by Snow, give the poster time to respond. PLEASE!!! Then if the poster proves that they are just not getting it, then ask some more.


Gahhh!! It's not up to me to tell anyone how to interact on these threads and I don't mean to come across that way. But this comes up all the time.

"I feel jumped on."

"I don't get that"

"But I'm getting attacked"

"Where"

"blah, blah, BLAH"

My feeling is, it's because people pile on. Not meaning to I'm sure. And not trying to be asshats about it. But, to people who are new/trying/not there yet/intimidated already, it can really feel like they are being bullied.

Can we just hear that message and maybe think about it???


Geez.....I hate pollyanaing out but I really understand both "sides" for lack of a better word, on this.

Sorry, derail, ignore as needed, jump on me as needed, just please think about it.


julie

[femmsational]

And when people ask where and when they were "attacked & bullied" there's nothing, no response. IF the bullying, and attacking does happen we have this great option called the report button, and if you are one of the people who do not like using the report button then I fear that the attacks and alleged bullying will go unnoticed by the Moderating team.

BFP isn't like any other online forum when it comes to them shenanigans, it really isn't read around...


This is a tiring argument that each time an ism or the bullshit is called out, people start saying:

I'm being silenced

I am being jumped on, attacked, chased out, afraid, bullied.



We are all equal here, there is no heirarchy and we are all free to post as long as we abide the TOS.

NOT ONCE in this tiring conversation has anyone bullied, attacked, picked on, anyone.


True story.



PS


I can't tell you how fucking tired I am of people claiming I am scary, or frightening. If you knew me, truly knew me you'd laugh and shake your head at the ridiculousness of the descriptors....


I get it!!! Please see above or below. whichever it is on your computer.

And believe me, I laugh and shake my head a LOT when I see people refering to you like that. I don't know, maybe I just met you in a different way but I think you're a really sweet and caring person. SUPER funny. I like you a lot. Wierd how others read you so differently.

[Mike]

Please note that I am not trying to call you two out or say that I feel as though I'm being attacked. I am using these two posts as example of my thinking.


So cont......

After Snow, reasonably and justly asks for an explanation, we then get two more posts that could be read as snarky.


Why do I feel that they could be read as snarky??? Cause I remember back to when I was new to posting on these threads, YEARS ago. I was not as well versed on the language, the ideas, the issues surrounding certain parts of these debates as I am now. I didn't know how to express myself in ways that helped other people really hear what I was saying. (shit, still don't know how most of the time.) Because I didn't know HOW to say things in YOUR language, not the language I had known my all my life.

So, my point is, some people who come here really try to make a point and they just are inartful in the way they do it. Some are trying to learn and to those people it could be really scary. They want to interact with other people like them but there is a learning curve that we all have to go through and in that time, it's intimidating. I know I found the dash-site in 2002, didn't post one damn thing for two years cause I read and read and read and realized I had a lot of learning to do before I could express my feelings in an appropriate way. I just hadn't gained the correct language before I found that site. Some people aren't that way. They find us here and really jump in with both feet. But they are trying.


Some, are assholes. Jump at will in my opinion.


Why am I saying all this and quoting the above posts?? Because, *I* wish that when someone asks a person in a thread to please explain what they meant. And asks in a totally appropriate and reasonable way as Snow did.....Can we maybe wait and let the person respond before coming in with posts like the above?

The post that was made was called out by Snow, give the poster time to respond. PLEASE!!! Then if the poster proves that they are just not getting it, then ask some more.


Gahhh!! It's not up to me to tell anyone how to interact on these threads and I don't mean to come across that way. But this comes up all the time.

"I feel jumped on."

"I don't get that"

"But I'm getting attacked"

"Where"

"blah, blah, BLAH"

My feeling is, it's because people pile on. Not meaning to I'm sure. And not trying to be asshats about it. But, to people who are new/trying/not there yet/intimidated already, it can really feel like they are being bullied.

Can we just hear that message and maybe think about it???


Geez.....I hate pollyanaing out but I really understand both "sides" for lack of a better word, on this.

Sorry, derail, ignore as needed, jump on me as needed, just please think about it.


julie

its ok if you are calling me out, but my respose to wait for the answer is becasue I read the thread and i could respond to some things but i saw where a question was asked or two and i wondered what the answer would be so i wait.That way i get to respond if i want after the answer. Its called trying to understand why and where someone is coming from instead of passing judgement.

thanks

[femmsational]

its ok if you are calling me out, but my respose to wait for the answer is becasue I read the thread and i could respond to some things but i saw where a question was asked or two and i wondered what the answer would be so i wait.That way i get to respond if i want after the answer. Its called trying to understand why and where someone is coming from instead of passing judgement.

thanks

I get that. And truely I am NOT trying to call you out. I just used you as an example.

I'm sorry, I know for you it probably doesn't feel that way.

I understand how you feel and why you feel it. I just have been thinking about this circle argument that goes on all the time and felt the need to blab my feelings on it.

Please know I am NOT trying to police anything. I just want to put my thoughts out about this "issue" and see how others are thinking about it.


j

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't understand Julie, why Mike's and Soon's posts are read as detremental to the conversation, how they are read as attacking yet the two posts that I quoted aren't?

How does that happen?

[Mike]

personally i think the post are just us saying we are reading and wondering also.

[Gemme]

Actually, I have seen what could be taken as pushiness towards both parties.

HOWEVER

I really think it comes down to communication. I hope she doesn't mind me saying so, but Belle and I continued our conversation from here for a while and, by the end of it, I understood what she was saying much better. I honestly think that that particular viewpoint is definitely valid and is correct.

BUT

I really also think that the other side....the side that says this is what we do....is not being fully heard and understood. I *do* see the push on that side to agree with the other viewpoint and it does feel more 'pushy' than it needs to be.

Both sides are absolutely right. One side is looking at the dynamic from a historical point of view, especially with an election around the corner and the potential for women's rights to go in the tank if that person is elected. I get that. The other side is saying, please let me have my dynamic...my fetish...my kink....my way of loving without jumping on me for it. I get that too. The fallout happened in the communication because I believe that the historical side is not making a judgement on the execution of the dynamic at all; it's the glorifying of that time period, I think, that has so many upset.

It did, initially, feel like the historical importance of the era was being hammered into folks and that's mostly why I spoke my thoughts on the matter. I agree that it's VERY important to see where we've been. It helps to figure out where we're going and how to deal with the current social climate. When I got into this debate I was looking at it like, what I do in my home and bedroom, etc is none of anyone's beeswax, so buzz off. It felt like the dynamic itself was being attacked <--don't like this word but I can't think of another right now.

HOWEVER

I now see that the historical side was addressing the "the 50s were the best time evah" and "the good ole days" comments and so on and so forth. They aren't saying folks can't do what they want to do and live how they want to live. They would just like to not glamourize a time period that was really hurtful to women. I get that!

BUT

In the communication of that point, there were some things said that really put both sides on the defensive. That's when it really ran aground.

So, this is where I stand:

The 50s are romanticized on TV and in the movies as being ideal....as an 'innocent' time. Well, sometimes innocent means ignorant. The government was doing stuff....people were doing stuff....some really shitty stuff....all on the down low. Keeping females in their "place" was not only accepted but expected. Everything "unsightly" was thrust under the rug and keeping up with the Joneses was par for the course. Well, some things haven't changed. We are in a society of bigger is better....material things determine not only our place in the world but our worth as human beings. There is shitty stuff from EVERY era because people will always do shitty things to one another. Humans can be the worst monsters of all, especially to one another.

I think it still comes down to being able to speak your opinion without stepping all over anyone else's and making them choke on it. I do wish some things had been said differently, by both viewpoints.

This black text on a white screen is all we have and that takes a lot of give on all of our parts to get to the core of what is really being said. It's not that each side doesn't see what the other is saying...it's how it's being said, I believe, that is throwing walls up.

Which is what I think Julie is trying to work through...the language of it all.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

[BullDog]

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

[femmsational]

I don't understand Julie, why Mike's and Soon's posts are read as detremental to the conversation, how they are read as attacking yet the two posts that I quoted aren't?

How does that happen?


I don't know Snow.

I guess because when a person who is posting, is called out by someone, like you did as you should have, then there are more posts made saying the same thing.....it can FEEL to them as though they are being bullied.

You know how people talk about the "pack" mentality??? Which makes me want to pull my hair out!! It's that feeling that ok, one person asked me, then another, then another, then another, then another. And they are all asking the same thing. To that one poster....It can feel like they are being jumped on.

I am not saying that they SHOULD feel that way, or that I feel that way, I'm just saying it could.

Imagine in real life being in the same position. You are somewhere, you say something you think is totally inocuous and then all of a sudden a bunch of people turn at you, at the same time and start asking you about what you said. It would be scary to have a bunch of people pointing at you and saying.....explain, explain, EXPLAIN. Like the "mean girl" crap that gets thrown around on here too.


I don't think any post is detremental to the converstaion. Well unless it's clear as a fucking bell the person is just a dumbass. And I think it's obvious that there is a difference between, not there yet and just an asshole.


And note, I'm not saying that the two posts ARE attacking, just that for some folks it might feel attacking. I can't explain why certain people feel attacked but I can say that I do understand.

This place can be a scary place. There are so many really smart, eloquent folks on this site who express themselves wonderfully. For those that don't feel they are at that same level of......awareness?? It could get intimidating. Then when they post something they think is totally innocent and they get called on it....again, and again, and again, it's too much.

It's THEIR thing. It's not up to anyone to make anyone comfortable. But I'm just saying I get how they could feel jumped on. And then express that.


I don't have a dog in this fight. I just feel bad for everyone.


j

[Gemme]

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Okay. I see that and do hear that from you. And you are right. Everyone should be able to do their own thing without judgement as long as it's consensual.

What you are saying here is what I was saying earlier. To me, it felt like the dynamic...the exchange between folks using some of the standards of that time....were was was being challenged. I see that it's more than that now.

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I have to withdraw from the conversation, as it's time for work, but I think we're saying a lot of the same thing. There's just that one part that seems to be tripping folks up.

[Gemme]

Actually Gemme, my point to my posts is/was that you can state your desires/wants/kinks/role playing/ dynamics without having to judge what others have done..

It seems to be a continuous tiring conversation in the forums that what you like may not be what I like and that there is no need to critique what others do.

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.

The 1950s, June Cleaver, "OFOS" all the these things get brought up constantly- it does seem to be about social commentary and values and times that were "better" when women were ladies and men were gentleman. It hits quite a sore spot. I suppose we are supposed to stay in our own little camps and say nothing.

One last thing....see how it can be confusing? We have two different themes running through the same conversation.

So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications.

Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know Snow.

I guess because when a person who is posting, is called out by someone, like you did as you should have, then there are more posts made saying the same thing.....it can FEEL to them as though they are being bullied.

You know how people talk about the "pack" mentality??? Which makes me want to pull my hair out!! It's that feeling that ok, one person asked me, then another, then another, then another, then another. And they are all asking the same thing. To that one poster....It can feel like they are being jumped on.

I am not saying that they SHOULD feel that way, or that I feel that way, I'm just saying it could.

Imagine in real life being in the same position. You are somewhere, you say something you think is totally inocuous and then all of a sudden a bunch of people turn at you, at the same time and start asking you about what you said. It would be scary to have a bunch of people pointing at you and saying.....explain, explain, EXPLAIN. Like the "mean girl" crap that gets thrown around on here too.


I don't think any post is detremental to the converstaion. Well unless it's clear as a fucking bell the person is just a dumbass. And I think it's obvious that there is a difference between, not there yet and just an asshole.


And note, I'm not saying that the two posts ARE attacking, just that for some folks it might feel attacking. I can't explain why certain people feel attacked but I can say that I do understand.

This place can be a scary place. There are so many really smart, eloquent folks on this site who express themselves wonderfully. For those that don't feel they are at that same level of......awareness?? It could get intimidating. Then when they post something they think is totally innocent and they get called on it....again, and again, and again, it's too much.

It's THEIR thing. It's not up to anyone to make anyone comfortable. But I'm just saying I get how they could feel jumped on. And then express that.


I don't have a dog in this fight. I just feel bad for everyone.


j



Isn't it ironic that when a Femme steps and says hey. stop it. with your isms.


She's painted out as a "mean girl"


You never see this happen with butch/trans/masculine folk


Matter of fact one of the masculine folk came in here and accused the folks who are in here of attacking the submissive Femmes..


Yanno julie, I'll be honest.

That shit is old. Tiring. It's deflection.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I've also had to deal with shit like this in real time situations, at dinner even. (ISMS)

And no I don't stay silent and 95% of the time, the person who spit out the ism, gets defensive, weird and turns it around on me.

People fear progression, I get it now at 43 that doesn't mean because of their fear, that I will be silenced.

[femmsational]

Isn't it ironic that when a Femme steps and says hey. stop it. with your isms.


She's painted out as a "mean girl"


You never see this happen with butch/trans/masculine folk


Matter of fact one of the masculine folk came in here and accused the folks who are in here of attacking the submissive Femmes..


Yanno julie, I'll be honest.

That shit is old. Tiring. It's deflection.

I hope you realize I am not saying I believe you, or anyone, at this moment is being a "mean girl" cause I've never thought that. I have seen the "mean girl" but not here and not on this site. I didn't use mean girl as a way to narrow it down to gender. It's a common way of describing a specific pattern. It could be a girl or a guy.

I think Gemme made a great point in her last post. There do seem to be two discussions going on at the same time. Confusing to say the least.

I'm not trying to say that I feel anyone is right or wrong, just that there are two ways to look at things and it makes it easier for ME to try to see things from both sides. Then I don't get my feelings hurt and take things personally.

I agree this shit is old. Which is why I said something in the first place.


j

[girl_dee]

i think for some people, possibly myself included, we don't feel that we are whitewashing history by adopting certain behaviors from that time period.

i get that women had no rights, i get that women were stripped of our dreams, hopes and the right to live in our own skin. Hell as an adult i was told i made less money than my male co-worker because he had a high house note to pay. We did the exact same job, only i did mine more efficiently.

By me choosing to embrace being a home maker doesn't by any stretch mean that i do not get and honor that time period and the struggles we still go through.

In fact it feels even more empowering in some ways because i am choose to live this way, i love what i do, i get to choose, and no matter what my choice it is honored.

[BullDog]

dee, for me it has nothing to do with if someone chooses to be a homemaker or other role in their life. Nothing at all. I am not sure what is being lost in translation.

[girl_dee]

dee, for me it has nothing to do with if someone chooses to be a homemaker or other role in their life. Nothing at all. I am not sure what is being lost in translation.

oh Bully i didn't think it did. i think i just typed outloud and the thoughts had just occurred to me after reading through.

[Mike]

I don't know Snow.

I guess because when a person who is posting, is called out by someone, like you did as you should have, then there are more posts made saying the same thing.....it can FEEL to them as though they are being bullied.

You know how people talk about the "pack" mentality??? Which makes me want to pull my hair out!! It's that feeling that ok, one person asked me, then another, then another, then another, then another. And they are all asking the same thing. To that one poster....It can feel like they are being jumped on.

I am not saying that they SHOULD feel that way, or that I feel that way, I'm just saying it could.

Imagine in real life being in the same position. You are somewhere, you say something you think is totally inocuous and then all of a sudden a bunch of people turn at you, at the same time and start asking you about what you said. It would be scary to have a bunch of people pointing at you and saying.....explain, explain, EXPLAIN. Like the "mean girl" crap that gets thrown around on here too.


I don't think any post is detremental to the converstaion. Well unless it's clear as a fucking bell the person is just a dumbass. And I think it's obvious that there is a difference between, not there yet and just an asshole.


And note, I'm not saying that the two posts ARE attacking, just that for some folks it might feel attacking. I can't explain why certain people feel attacked but I can say that I do understand.

This place can be a scary place. There are so many really smart, eloquent folks on this site who express themselves wonderfully. For those that don't feel they are at that same level of......awareness?? It could get intimidating. Then when they post something they think is totally innocent and they get called on it....again, and again, and again, it's too much.

It's THEIR thing. It's not up to anyone to make anyone comfortable. But I'm just saying I get how they could feel jumped on. And then express that.


I don't have a dog in this fight. I just feel bad for everyone.


j

I guess the other way to look at is:

There are a few folks who dont get where I am coming from, and asking me for more information or to clarify something I said.
Its not just one person who is having a hard time understanding what I said.

Trust me when i didnt post what i really wanted to post, when i said i was waiting for an answer, that would have been attacking, because for the life of me, I cant imagine why any would would want to come in here and be an asshole, there are plenly of other places for that to happen on the web. So i was going with I dont understand and in doing that, you didnt understand where I was coming from.

Its all in the form of perception!

I call it engaging brain before engaging fingers.

[BullDog]

oh Bully i didn't think it did. i think i just typed outloud and the thoughts had just occurred to me after reading through.

Ah ok, I am a bit confused still, but I most definitely see the way you live as a very powerful choice.

[femmsational]

I guess the other way to look at is:

There are a few folks who dont get where I am coming from, and asking me for more information or to clarify something I said.
Its not just one person who is having a hard time understanding what I said.

Trust me when i didnt post what i really wanted to post, when i said i was waiting for an answer, that would have been attacking, because for the life of me, I cant imagine why any would would want to come in here and be an asshole, there are plenly of other places for that to happen on the web. So i was going with I dont understand and in doing that, you didnt understand where I was coming from.

Its all in the form of perception!

I call it engaging brain before engaging fingers.


Mike, I'm gonna try this one more time.

If you felt like re-reading my posts, you would see I tried to explain that to me personally, I did not see your post as what you seem to think I am saying I did.

I tried to say it COULD be seeing as and then gave reasons why I felt it COULD be seen as that. Not once did I say I actually saw it as rude, snarky, attacking.....insert whatever. I only spoke of how it COULD be taken by people who felt insecure and indimiated already.

It is absolutely all about perception. Which is exactly what I was talking about.

[Mike]

Mike, I'm gonna try this one more time.

If you felt like re-reading my posts, you would see I tried to explain that to me personally, I did not see your post as what you seem to think I am saying I did.

I tried to say it COULD be seeing as and then gave reasons why I felt it COULD be seen as that. Not once did I say I actually saw it as rude, snarky, attacking.....insert whatever. I only spoke of how it COULD be taken by people who felt insecure and indimiated already.

It is absolutely all about perception. Which is exactly what I was talking about.

Julie I get that, but sometimes you know, it is just what it is, nothing more, nothing less. people have to own their own stuff.

thanks

[BullDog]

Well Femmsational, I certainly have a completely different read on Soon and Mike's comments.

When I read DMW saying he wants a place to just be an asshole, my thoughts in my head were wow, really, males have the whole world to be an asshole in.

I thought Soon's comment was very straightforward with absolutely no snark.

And when I read Mike's comment, it felt good to see another male paying attention and wanting to hear more about this- something I appreciate.

That's how I read it.

[femmsational]

Julie I get that, but sometimes you know, it is just what it is, nothing more, nothing less. people have to own their own stuff.

thanks


Amen!!!

I could not agree more


:rrose:

[Hominid]

I'm not even going to go there - I have no desire to expand this, and shouldn't have brought it up to begin with. It was not someone sharing his views.

People coming in and stating their views and having a conversation is not a "SMACK DOWN"

I am unsure of what thread you are talking about since there are so many here on BFP, but I have yet to see anyone *smacking* anyone have folks been taken to task? Yes Do the isms get called out? Yeap. If you are being harrassed or threatened on BFP you should really really have the Moderators take care of that for you:)

[QueenofSmirks]

Gemme, it does not feel like people are talking about kink to me. I was quite surprised when that was brought up. I don't feel anyone is speaking out against anyone's kink.



This actually threw me too. I don't consider the lifestyle being discussed as a "kink". The "you do the car repairs, take the trash out, open my door, and in return I'll cook and clean and pamper you when you get home at the end of the day" is not kink. It's a relationship or lifestyle dynamic. I don't even think it's role playing or mimicking "50's traditional values", and I can say that because I've lived that life, and it wasn't because I found it kinky, or glamorous - it was what fit me and my partner at the time. He took on all the "traditional" binary "male" roles in the relationship, and I took on the "female" ones, except that he cooked sometimes. And before anyone thinks about taking a torch to me, please reread where I referenced this as "TRADITIONAL binary gender roles". I'm not implying butches can't do X and femmes can't do X. I can do whatever the fuck I want to, and usually do, including riding motorcycles, getting tattoos, and playing poker. But I'm not going to pretend that in some relationships I've been in, those "traditional binary gender roles" didn't set in on their own, organically. That doesn't mean I was kept from doing anything - I am and was still my own person. I don't like taking out the trash, or fixing things around the house. I felt blessed that my partner liked doing all those things. But I never once saw any of this as "kink."

[QueenofSmirks]

One last thing....see how it can be confusing? We have two different themes running through the same conversation.

So, part of it is based on preferences and part of it is based on historical ramifications.

Really have to go now, but I promise I'll be back later tonight! Thanks for the discussion!

It isn't just that we have different themes running through this conversation, but I think the latest conversation is that some people want to have a safe place to post without being challenged. I get it, but that's not what public forums are about. I think there are two solutions: discuss in person, in private, or in a private online chat room made up of people that are like minded or who won't challenge you; or post in the Listening thread, where nobody is allowed to respond. It's not perfect, but nothing can be all things to everyone, and since this is mostly a public site, this obviously is not a place where people can post their opinions and thoughts without responses.

[Greyson]

Yes, I am posting this in hopes that all of us may pause and consider our agenda. BTW, I don't think "agenda" is necessarily a bad thing. I just want to know what is really motivating some of my words and actions.

Is my number one priority making this world and in that this community a better and safe place for women?

How do I realize, materialize this goal for women and others if they want help in doing so?

Am I overly invested in being right? Do I want to look the most intelligent? Do I want everyone to notice me? Maybe I do. I ask myself these questions because I am a member of this community that posts often and I do see myself as part of this community. In my mind that makes me responsible to assist in the well being of women, full realization of womens rights, respect in words and actions for women and for the education of "others."

How can I do this? First through my own actions, thoughts, and beliefs. Secondly, with some willingness to put my fear and ego aside. Third take action and try to treat others as I would like to be treated.

[GraffitiBoi]

Basically, as I understand it, this stemmed from a set of comments made about how this era was the best and that some folks wished the world was like this now, etc. Somehow that opinion morphed into a judgement call on others who do not participate in that dynamic.

I'm only using Gemme's post as a starting point to clarify what happened and try to maybe get people to understand where all this came from.

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

I don't think any single person here was in the wrong for anything they said. I do think it was wrong for people to jump to conclusions and make assumptions first. But it happens and forums are where we can talk it out and understand each other. Everyone has different ways they live their lives. No one is denying that right. Some women like to take care of their partner, some want to be taken care of, and others want an equal 50/50 split. No one is wrong. Assuming a 'June Cleaver' Femme wants to give up her rights and live like it's the 1950s based on one small comment is not much different than how some straight people assume that being gay means you like to sleep around with everyone and have no morals based solely on the small fact that you are attracted to someone who is the same gender as you are.

Thank you for listening and I hope this may have helped sort this all out, at least a little bit.

[BullDog]

I think I do partially get it. Like if I said, wow I love the 1920's they had such great music and clothes. Then people come back and say OMG BullDog how could you say that? What about WWI, The Great Depression was about to hit, all the oppression- racism, sexism, etc. Then I'm like- geeze I like the music and clothes I didn't say I love everything about it or want to live exactly that way.

With the whole 1950's thing, June Cleaver, OFOS- it feels like we are hit with it time and time again and it feels stifling and oppressive to me. Maybe because I lived a quasi-version of it. I think the June Cleaver thread is quite enlightening and expresses many of the thoughts I feel. I get that we can all have our own favorite eras and role models, but these just seem to be predominant ones that get held out as the standard over and over again. It feels like a very white upper middle class heterosexual model that gets held up as the standard that most of us could never live up to or want to live up to. Perhaps the answer is to just go to our separate corners. I really don't know.

[Chancie]

I'm in love with a female identified butch, and we are, you know, a monogamous committed couple, but I have been mightily attracted to men who identify as FTM, and the very occasional cisman, but I'm not attracted to every female identified butch, or every man who identifies as FTM, and so on.

Seriously, the threads that make broad sweeping generalizations about groups bug me like crazy. But, I completely get that it's fun to flirt and let potential dates know they think queer femmes are hot stuff, for example.

I live in Western Mass, and in some communities there are huge numbers of lesbians. But, Pete and I perform our own sexy dance, perform in the RuPaul sense, I mean. When she helps me on with my coat, or holds the door for me, or fetches me a ginger ale, we appear to be enacting traditional gender roles.

The difference is, we have no desire to live in the 1950's; I am queer and Pete is a lesbian. We own who we are as people.

I understand that there are folks for whom this is the only place they can be seen for who they genuinely are. I'm thinking of 'the guys', who get to be 'guys', but I am also thinking of femmes who get to strut their stuff without being erased out in the world. But, I don't get to perform feminine the way feminine is portrayed in sitcoms, in the most grotesquely offensive way.

[ruffryder]

Thank you for the following Vintage and Uniques and everybody else posting in regards to what you find attractive in FTMs!

Their courage, strength of heart & spirit, the will to be true to who they are in the face of much bigotry, adversity and misunderstanding. And physically for me, just their sheer hottiness. Mhmmm.

The honesty they share, the emotions they have about themselves, the energy they project.

Ranch house is a plus as well:)

Brute it is a great thing that many FTMs are aware where they come from and the steps it takes to get to a comfortable place within oneself knowing and feeling all they do with regards to feminism and what it is like to be a female in this world. You say Julie has played a major role in your alignment and how you feel in regards to the journey, and your Mom called you "son." I have to say many femmes in my life and friends have helped me along this journey as well. They have pointed out things to me about myself that made me realize who I am and who I am to become. This helps immensely in gaining one's confidence and moving along the journey to become a FTM and align ones body perhaps and spirit to match how one may feel.

Your post definitely was not a derail.. maybe on the current discussion happening here but most definitely is what the thread is all about, FTMs and the attraction of them. Thanks for your sentiments.

My question for FTMs (in regards to attraction) is :

Have people in your life helped you along that journey we make as FTMs in realizing, aligning, transforming, etc? ..

and for others:

Have you been able to help FTMs with their journey in realizing, aligning, transforming, and how has it affected or changed them or yourself?

For me, it's comments like the above, people that understand where we come from and how we feel, acceptance, and this thread in general that help someone such as myself move about comfortably in this life being who I am.

Okay, got Ursula parked for the night, finally.


DMV, Julie pretty much hit the nail on the head with the use of the word shame, for me.

There were specific incidents, growing up as a female but feeling/knowing something just was not right with me, that caused the shame. It's not something I'll talk about out in the open but it's not something I will put away forever either because it is a part of the journey I've taken to get here. I gotta take the good with the bad. Lol.

I can honestly say that Julie has played a very very major role in me finally being totally okay with aligning my outside with my inside. I don't think she realizes that though. A lot of it comes from the religious upbringing and family that I come from. Yet they all adore Julie. Hell my own granny forced us to have a shot gun wedding at her house. My mom, in the past year or two, has started calling me, "her son". Most of the above has happened because they see that someone like me, a FTM, can be loved and accepted by another. That I'm not just some freak of nature or worse yet, someone who enjoys "dancing with the Devil" just to be the black sheep of the family.

Oh lordy, that was a derail if there ever was one but felt the need to share that. I guess what it boils down to is this....I am so damn grateful for threads like this because it's nice to be reminded every now and then why someone like myself could and would be appreciated, and not just by their lover/wife/spouse/partner or family. ;)


...

oyyyy not sure how June Cleaver and all her glory got in this thread, same as 50s, and kink. . I understand there are FTMs that enjoy 50s lifestyle, kink, etc.. but still, what attracks people to FTMs? June Cleaver probably is not a fan of FTMs.. Not all FTMs are into the 50s lifestyle or kink, but would this be something you (you general) need in an FTM to find them attractive? For me, that would just be a part of their lifestyle and not what defines them or maybe it does define them, hell I don't know. I guess that's another thread, maybe? :blink:

[Martina]

Isn't it ironic that when a Femme steps and says hey. stop it. with your isms.


She's painted out as a "mean girl"


You never see this happen with butch/trans/masculine folk


Matter of fact one of the masculine folk came in here and accused the folks who are in here of attacking the submissive Femmes..


Yanno julie, I'll be honest.

That shit is old. Tiring. It's deflection.


Yes!!!! ------------

[Chancie]

<snip>

I was here when the comment was made that actually caused this whole derailling thread. The comment was relating to how the person likes to treat her 'man'/boi/butch/partner/etc. She was referring to how she likes to cook, clean, etc. It was not about the era itself at all or claiming that the 50s was the ideal time. It was just simply about how she likes to treat the person she loves. Other people assumed that by her using June Cleaver as how she defines herself to mean that she meant the 50s were the best times and that somehow she was in favor of suppressing women's rights, the rights of other minorities, giving men all the power and control... blah blah blah. This was not the intent or meaning and it all got blown out of proportion because some people jumped to conclusions and made some very big assumptions. It had nothing to do with kink or revoking equality or rights.

<snip>



The thing is, and it is not my intention to rank on that member, so do I. I love taking care of Pete. I understand the desire for a shorthand to describe that, I do. But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

[Hominid]

I think I brought "kink" into the conversation - I think I also qualified it as "some level of kink" - I apologize for any offense. There is a whole community of people who come at this from a 50's household kinky point of view, I must have had that on my brain. Medieval Fairs aren't kink either. I'm not sure bringing kink into the discussion invalidates what I was saying. Actually whether it's kink or not, although times have changed - there were women who felt empowered even back then, and weren't happy about the changes.

As far as being an asshole - yes, born-men have the whole world in which to be an asshole. This may be less so for trans-men to different degrees depending on their circumstances. I believe we are ALL assholes. I *think* I understand what DMW was trying to say - I wasn't thrilled with the "especially submissive femme" reference. Really, he has a right to want to vent, to be his "asshole" self. But in a thread such as this with a large number of femmes - not wise. DMW would be better off choosing another thread, or maybe creating his own, where other guys in similar shoes who have gone through or are going through the process can call him out or support him from our perspective. I can say it is very hard at times to be surrounded by male privilege, not be perceived as male, and confuse the lack of receipt of male privilege with lack of recognition as male. VERY hard, and often not resolvable until one is perceived as male socially.

For me, I became an even bigger feminist the more I was perceived as male. Males sometimes see me as betraying them, women are generally confused when I advocate - and sadly, if they knew I was trans I would not be taken as seriously.

[GraffitiBoi]

But the references to periods of time that were especially bad for women, or Blacks, or any other group that has been systematically discriminated against? It's shit stirring, whether intentional or not.

And yet people love the renaissance fair and flock to it and dress up in period costume, but it doesn't stir up as much... stuff... as this person's post did. Talk about an oppressive time period!

That being said I think I need to remove myself from this whole thread until (if) it un-derails itself! LOL

[The_Lady_Snow]

Actually it started like this.


I don't balk, the people I date/own/fuck aren't stable...


Hence my post after those particular posts.


I, like others, agree that it's an energy thing.

But I also have to say that I have been treated the absolute best out of any relationships by the FtMs that I have dated.

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

At the end of the day, it's just who I am attracted to.

They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

I am what I call old fashioned/ old school and I absolutely agree with the respect and dynamics of the relationship. I seem to be a million miles away from every single, stable ftm on the Planet! Just my luck!!!

Hmm, I am one of those Femme's that's attracted to fella's with Feminist values and are confident in themselves to let me lead the relationship.

That kinda person if fucking HAWT!

[DMW]

Unfortunately, the late night editing of my random feelings and thoughts regarding how i feel personally...got cut up by me, without me
recognizing, until now, that what i had originally posted got hosed up....specifically, My point b) isn't even there. So, i don't even recall what i originally posted or what thought processes got left out or unfinished. So, the post wound up being even more confusing or misrepresentitive of what i was trying to convey. I do recognize that barfing up my feelings onto this website has the capacity to open up a can of worms and cause confusion and strife and bring up emotions. I must say...that i didn't post those feelings with a purpose to get a response from others or to be noticed by anyone nor to try and get attention or heard or what have you. But, this is a public forum. So, i should expect a reaction, i suppose. I do have to take responsibility for what i have posted, eventhough my late night...not well thought out blab didn't come across original because i cut it up and lost it. That doesn't necessarily mean that i would be understood the way i wanted to be. And i think i may have offended people. I don't like that. I don't have an insecurity issue with it either.
i am wanting to answer people's questions but at the same time deal with my own emotions and feelings and find the words as to why i am bothered and what is disturbing me. So, selfishly, i have to focus on what irks me before i try and clear up what was originally posted by me or answer the questions. I may never be able to find that original thought or feeling to my post.
I just want to apologize for blabbing and then not being able to clear it up sooner rather than later.
I think for me...what it comes down to is this...being perceived as a previleged white male ...in society has its advantages...yes. However, it has it's drawbacks, also. When people look at me...they assume...ah...he is a white male and this is how his life has been...And it just isn't so.
(i guess it is like the "invisibility" feeling that femmes have and have to put up with)

And so, when i come here to this website ...it is as though i expect more understanding and some kind of relief from this community. And that isn't necessarily fair...especially if many do not know me well here or don't have any kind of foundation of that awareness (of who i am) to draw upon. That is asking a lot. It really is.
In addition, if i don't explain where i am coming from...then how the hell would
anyone know that....hey...that asshole remark that he just made...(I prefer Donna Reed and or Alice Kramden)...I may like Donna Reed in a dress and all...but, i do not expect her to go and get my morning paper or my coffee because i demand that... not unless she wants to. I want her to go and get my morning paper and my coffee because...it is what she wants to do because it makes her happy to make me happy.

I do want to apologize for hurting anyone's feelings. I am sorry for that sincerely.
DMW

[Darbonaire]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire
They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

& guess what Snow....I stand by my statement totally! Doors should get held open...<in MY world> Chairs pulled back..<in MY world>.....Common courtesy, manners also...<in MY world> Now, if that makes you feel oppressed or your feminity threatened..<which I doubt btw having read many of your posts...lol> oh well. YOUR world is YOUR world & MINE is MINE. I don't post to offend anyone, but, if I can't, or anyone can't post what they feel or think on these boards, then is this any better than the outside world where we all are subjected to censorship etc.? Now no, people should not be allowed to post derogatory things about others on here, but we are ALL entitled to our opinions, yes?

Out in the r/t world we seek people who have similar interests, similar tastes in life.....common ground as it were. We are all looking to find like minded souls to travel this journey with. Well, at at least I am.

Now then...back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

[Tony]

Unfortunately, the late night editing of my random feelings and thoughts regarding how i feel personally...got cut up by me, without me
recognizing, until now, that what i had originally posted got hosed up....specifically, My point b) isn't even there. So, i don't even recall what i originally posted or what thought processes got left out or unfinished. So, the post wound up being even more confusing or misrepresentitive of what i was trying to convey. I do recognize that barfing up my feelings onto this website has the capacity to open up a can of worms and cause confusion and strife and bring up emotions. I must say...that i didn't post those feelings with a purpose to get a response from others or to be noticed by anyone nor to try and get attention or heard or what have you. But, this is a public forum. So, i should expect a reaction, i suppose. I do have to take responsibility for what i have posted, eventhough my late night...not well thought out blab didn't come across original because i cut it up and lost it. That doesn't necessarily mean that i would be understood the way i wanted to be. And i think i may have offended people. I don't like that. I don't have an insecurity issue with it either.
i am wanting to answer people's questions but at the same time deal with my own emotions and feelings and find the words as to why i am bothered and what is disturbing me. So, selfishly, i have to focus on what irks me before i try and clear up what was originally posted by me or answer the questions. I may never be able to find that original thought or feeling to my post.
I just want to apologize for blabbing and then not being able to clear it up sooner rather than later.
I think for me...what it comes down to is this...being perceived as a previleged white male ...in society has its advantages...yes. However, it has it's drawbacks, also. When people look at me...they assume...ah...he is a white male and this is how his life has been...And it just isn't so.
(i guess it is like the "invisibility" feeling that femmes have and have to put up with)

And so, when i come here to this website ...it is as though i expect more understanding and some kind of relief from this community. And that isn't necessarily fair...especially if many do not know me well here or don't have any kind of foundation of that awareness (of who i am) to draw upon. That is asking a lot. It really is.
In addition, if i don't explain where i am coming from...then how the hell would
anyone know that....hey...that asshole remark that he just made...(I prefer Donna Reed and or Alice Kramden)...I may like Donna Reed in a dress and all...but, i do not expect her to go and get my morning paper or my coffee because i demand that... not unless she wants to. I want her to go and get my morning paper and my coffee because...it is what she wants to do because it makes her happy to make me happy.

I do want to apologize for hurting anyone's feelings. I am sorry for that sincerely.
DMW

I came in to see if the thread got back on point. I see it hasn't but I will say this is how I feel as well. Also why I've stayed away from this whole discussion (well, until now lol).

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Darbonaire
They seem to understand and "get" the June Cleaver lifestyle. They respect it. They don't balk at many of the common courtesies. Doors get held open, chairs pulled back, Ma'am is said...

Yes indeed....it's how I believe it should be....thanks for noticing when we do it...<smile>....

& guess what Snow....I stand by my statement totally! Doors should get held open...<in MY world> Chairs pulled back..<in MY world>.....Common courtesy, manners also...<in MY world> Now, if that makes you feel oppressed or your feminity threatened..<which I doubt btw having read many of your posts...lol> oh well. YOUR world is YOUR world & MINE is MINE. I don't post to offend anyone, but, if I can't, or anyone can't post what they feel or think on these boards, then is this any better than the outside world where we all are subjected to censorship etc.? Now no, people should not be allowed to post derogatory things about others on here, but we are ALL entitled to our opinions, yes?

Out in the r/t world we seek people who have similar interests, similar tastes in life.....common ground as it were. We are all looking to find like minded souls to travel this journey with. Well, at at least I am.

Now then...back to our regularly scheduled programming.....

Um, Darbonaire I was quoting what and how this whole thing originated. Not once did I say Darbonaire did this and that.

Please don't speak to me like I am some dimwit that doesn't get what is what I believe I have explained what the issue is what seems like millions of times.

Opinions can be stated without stepping on the desires of others. It's been said over and over and over again.

[Darbonaire]

Um, Darbonaire I was quoting what and how this whole thing originated. Not once did I say Darbonaire did this and that.

Please don't speak to me like I am some dimwit that doesn't get what is what I believe I have explained what the issue is what seems like millions of times.

Opinions can be stated without stepping on the desires of others. It's been said over and over and over again.

No, quoting me was quite enough....LOL..& believe me...."dimwit" isn't at all what I think you are...I actually find your posts enlightening, well phrased, & intelligent. Whatever the "issue" is in here, I personally wish to get back to the "issue" that is the title of the room / post.....my ego speaking there....LOL

[Darbonaire]

How is someone to know other's "opinions" will get fired up if they come into a room & then post "their opinion" ? Seriously, if I had the time to read back over 2 yrs worth of posts "maybe" I could tell where a sore spot or subject is....but really......there are folks out here...FTM & Femme who feel as you do, & who feel as I & others do.....I don't believe anyone was out to start some dicussion about the 50's....but hey....it's all ok by me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

No, quoting me was quite enough....LOL..& believe me...."dimwit" isn't at all what I think you are...I actually find your posts enlightening, well phrased, & intelligent. Whatever the "issue" is in here, I personally wish to get back to the "issue" that is the title of the room / post.....my ego speaking there....LOL




are you telling me I should move along? Your postings are very silencing.

You post feels very head patting..

Care to clarify?

Oh and your ego, that shouldn't take presidence over my posts or anyone elses post who don't agree with your way of thinking.

[BullDog]

You know some of us are just trying to make an effort to clarify and understand each other better.

Opening and doors and such- "50s style" FTMS aren't the only ones with manners.

I don't quite get this some of guys just want to be guys stuff since there are plenty of FTMs and trans guys here that don't act like that way at all.

[Darbonaire]

are you telling me I should move along? Your postings are very silencing.

You post feels very head patting..

Care to clarify?

Oh and your ego, that shouldn't take presidence over my posts or anyone elses post who don't agree with your way of thinking.


Do you carry that chip on your shoulder ALL the time...My God...so I guess compliments...even sincere seem to be "dismissing" to you?...LOL...wow, <making a note to myelf on that one> & since I believe I saw a post by the MOD back aways about getting BACK to the original theme & starting a seperate room for this discussion...well, pardon me..I thought we would be doing that....wrong again I guess...Y'all enjoy the discussing..I'll come back when it's back on point.

[Tony]

I have read through more of this thread than I found comfortable. IMO there is a lot of passive aggressive remarks, A LOT of judging of people's choice of lifestyle/kink/behaviors & all around misunderstandings on an epic level. IMO this is a perfect example of how some topics are just too complicated to carry out in a purely written, moderated forum.
ALL OF THIS MY OPINION & VIEW ONLY.

I for one would like to get back to the original intent of this thread;

What attracts you to FTMs?

[Darbonaire]

You know some of us are just trying to make an effort to clarify and understand each other better.

Opening and doors and such- "50s style" FTMS aren't the only ones with manners.

I don't quite get this some of guys just want to be guys stuff since there are plenty of FTMs and trans guys here that don't act like that way at all.

I believe I made it clear these were MY ideals...not even trying to say they're right for you or anybody else..My life...MY ideals....

Where did you see me say that 50's FTM's are the "only ones with manners"?...Ok....out of here...wheh y'all decide to get back on topic I'll be glad to join in...till then....enjoy yourselves..>!

Oh & BTW...I'm not in to so called "guy stuff"...LOL...ask my ex ...<laughing So much at this cause you have no idea who I am or how I am>.....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Do you carry that chip on your shoulder ALL the time...My God...so I guess compliments...even sincere seem to be "dismissing" to you?...LOL...wow, <making a note to myelf on that one> & since I believe I saw a post by the MOD back aways about getting BACK to the original theme & starting a seperate room for this discussion...well, pardon me..I thought we would be doing that....wrong again I guess...Y'all enjoy the discussing..I'll come back when it's back on point.


Um I thought you were a gentleman like the kind in the 50's? Your wording here doesn't read at all like you have manners....


Enjoy your day.

[Hominid]

Please don't speak to me like I am some dimwit that doesn't get what is what I believe I have explained what the issue is what seems like millions of times.

This assumption that Darbonaire was coming from a place of condescension is exactly the problem in this thread, and not just yours. Yes, you *feeling* that way matters a great deal. But it doesn't mean it's true. However, one cannot take this to task without also recognizing that the very complaint of some of the people who feel you have been harsh with them feel EXACTLY as you describe. They cannot find the single quote you ask for to prove that you have said something offensive. Darbonaire was not harsh - was simply explaining himself and trying valiantly to insert enough qualifiers to piss anyone off.

If you found this post offensive or irritating or condescending, you should understand very well why other's have felt the same about some of your posts.

I think the issue is multifaceted. And more than just Snow's. Even yours is convoluted and complex at this point.

I'm out, despite being on the periphery for most of it. I began by saying this is why I don't get involved. I've now reminded myself. This is the "Trans Zone" -
space IS needed for guys to be able to communicate honestly, even if they aren't feminists, even if they are struggling and getting things wrong while negotiating their way through incredibly physically, socially, and emotionally toxic waters. Femmes have their own issues but they will NEVER understand the steps along the way. Most are very compassionate and patient.

Basically, guys need their own space to be "assholes" (and I again re-assert that we are ALL assholes) and not be spoken to in the way that even Snow found condescending. So -in the next few days I or another member with whom I am talking will be setting up some kind of a space for this purpose. We need support, we are all not where we will be. We may be assholes, but we deserve the benefit of the doubt - especially in the "Trans Zone"

Hominid - human -humanist out. Feel free to pick out a phrase or a perceived tone or word and call me on the carpet now.

[Darbonaire]

Um I thought you were a gentleman like the kind in the 50's? Your wording here doesn't read at all like you have manners....


Enjoy your day.

Well snow....again...THAT was a specific put down...no moderator I see.....LOL...amazing....guess YOU have some moderator given right to trash or insult or be opinionated at others but we can't voice opinions ....wow....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hominid, have you read the TOS?


Just because you (general) are guys/FTM's doesn't mean you get to come in here and be assholes. I have provided part of the TOS:

This is a female-owned website based on Feminist principles. Please consider that when posting.
Any sexist, racist, anti-woman, hate-speech, sizist or ageist postings are unwelcome here.


I am a Leather Woman, I have thoughts and ideas too, but what I don't get to do is come in here and take a shit on those who aren't. It's ridiculous to think that just because you are in a Zone that you can act like you wanna.


Also, how Darbonaire is speaking to me, is gross. I get enough shit from cis gender males out in real time, last thing I want is to be treated this way in my safe space. Maybe if I was more submissive you'd be nicer and see things differently.

[Darbonaire]

Hominid, have you read the TOS?


Just because you (general) are guys/FTM's doesn't mean you get to come in here and be assholes. I have provided part of the TOS:

This is a female-owned website based on Feminist principles. Please consider that when posting.
Any sexist, racist, anti-woman, hate-speech, sizist or ageist postings are unwelcome here.


I am a Leather Woman, I have thoughts and ideas too, but what I don't get to do is come in here and take a shit on those who aren't. It's ridiculous to think that just because you are in a Zone that you can act like you wanna.


Also, how Darbonaire is speaking to me, is gross. I get enough shit from cis gender males out in real time, last thing I want is to be treated this way in my safe space. Maybe if I was more submissive you'd be nicer and see things differently.

But you can "shit" on other's opinions ??? Woman space or not.....there was nothing anti-woman about any of my comments....."How Darbonaire is speaking to you," is polite & guardedly so...if that's 'gross" to you..that's on you & your interpertation not my delivery or intent.

[DMW]

How the hell do we start a new thread? I have been wanting to do that and don't know how? I mentioned it before and haven't found out or had time to forage for it.

So i ask...how can i start a new thread?

[The_Lady_Snow]

How the hell do we start a new thread? I have been wanting to do that and don't know how? I mentioned it before and haven't found out or had time to forage for it.

So i ask...how can i start a new thread?


http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=686171#post686171

[Medusa]

Alright DAMMIT.

This bullshit of trading licks back and forth and personal jabs better stop IMMEDIATELY.

And if you haven't reported any posts, don't sit there and complain about what the Mods are or are not doing.

This thread better get back on track immediately or we are going to shut it the fuck down. ALL further posts about the 50s dynamic or June Clever need to be taken to new threads or kept to yourself.

If I see one more person take a swipe in here or cry victim because "the Mods" aren't doing something, y'all are going to think it's Halloween because the time-outs will be passed out like candy.

If I sound pissed off, I am. It's yet another Sunday when people on the forums are going ape shit. STOP IT.

[BrutalDaddy]

Yo, guys.

Medusa spoke. Can we please just take a deep breath and chill for bit?

I kinda like this thread for reasons I mentioned in one of my past posts so I'd like it not to get shut down if possible?


Pretty Please,
Brute.

[Medusa]

Hominid -

I deleted your message to give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't see my moderation since it looks like you might have been typing as I was posting.

That will be the only pass I give in this thread to anyone.

All -Let the line of arguing drop or get a time-out.

[DMW]

I know i mentioned moderators in a past post...i honestly was not being snide or making a jab at any moderators here. I was speaking of the job. I personally could not do what they have to do.

I didn't know that if someone has an issue about what someone posts...then they should go to a moderator? So, moderators have to deal with that also? Ugh...

[ruffryder]

We are in the thread FTM and what attracks people to FTMs, yes?

" the rest had been snipped out based on Medusa's posting after I posted, etc.. out of respect "

[Linus]

I know i mentioned moderators in a past post...i honestly was not being snide or making a jab at any moderators here. I was speaking of the job. I personally could not do what they have to do.

I didn't know that if someone has an issue about what someone posts...then they should go to a moderator? So, moderators have to deal with that also? Ugh...

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4886

[ruffryder]

, y'all are going to think it's Halloween because the time-outs will be passed out like candy.




heheh.. we love you Medusa! This scared me because I thought something was gonna be said about scariness! But it made me crack up too! :jester: :angry:


Everybody :readfineprint: :readrules:


I want candy!! :cherry: :chocolate: and not the time out kind.. :blush:

[femmsational]

Yo, guys.

Medusa spoke. Can we please just take a deep breath and chill for bit?

I kinda like this thread for reasons I mentioned in one of my past posts so I'd like it not to get shut down if possible?


Pretty Please,
Brute.

*snort* you just like your......um.....ego stroked!!!


ruffryder, you asked some great questions in your...last....i think....post. It's somewhere in here buried. I sure would love to see people's answers to those questions.


ETA: Nope, i totally lied. Not your last post. But it was one of your last posts. I can't find it dammit!!!!

[BrutalDaddy]

:cigar2: :blush:


Likes Having Ego Stroked,
Brute.

[ruffryder]

back to topic. who got's some answers? :)

Thank you for the following Vintage and Uniques and everybody else posting in regards to what you find attractive in FTMs!





Brute it is a great thing that many FTMs are aware where they come from and the steps it takes to get to a comfortable place within oneself knowing and feeling all they do with regards to feminism and what it is like to be a female in this world. You say Julie has played a major role in your alignment and how you feel in regards to the journey, and your Mom called you "son." I have to say many femmes in my life and friends have helped me along this journey as well. They have pointed out things to me about myself that made me realize who I am and who I am to become. This helps immensely in gaining one's confidence and moving along the journey to become a FTM and align ones body perhaps and spirit to match how one may feel.

Your post definitely was not a derail.. maybe on the current discussion happening here but most definitely is what the thread is all about, FTMs and the attraction of them. Thanks for your sentiments.

My question for FTMs (in regards to attraction) is :

Have people in your life helped you along that journey we make as FTMs in realizing, aligning, transforming, etc? ..

and for others:

Have you been able to help FTMs with their journey in realizing, aligning, transforming, and how has it affected or changed them or yourself?

For me, it's comments here about what attracks people to FTMS, people that understand where we come from and how we feel, acceptance, and this thread in general that help someone such as myself move about comfortably in this life being who I am.

[Gemme]

Have you been able to help FTMs with their journey in realizing, aligning, transforming, and how has it affected or changed them or yourself?

I would like to think so, but you'd have to ask them.

*grin*

My first FTM I dated did not lead to the best situation but it was definitely a learning situation. He wanted a straight woman and to leave the glbt2q3i world far behind and to completely sever all ties with it. THAT won't happen with me. After much thought and many tears, we split. Not hatefully but not amicably either. I haven't remained in contact with him so I'm not sure how it's going for him and what, if any, influence I had on him....other than to make absolute sure that he's got a woman who is straight or is willing to become straight for him.

I've since dated more appropriate (for ME) FTMs that did not want/need/demand that from me and we've managed to part on much friendlier notes. Again, you'd have to ask them what influence, if any, I had on them and their process.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Have you been able to help FTMs with their journey in realizing, aligning, transforming, and how has it affected or changed them or yourself?


The only thing I feel I can do is be an ally. Their journey is theirs so I am supportive, open to be an ear and I do not let their path deter me from mine. I am not sure if that's helped them but I hope they feel I was/am supportive of them. I have helped a few friends get resources in their area if they ask:)

[pynkkameleon]

What attracts me to FTM's? I like many others am drawn to that masculine energy. It's what makes my belly do flip-flops and draws me in.

I cannot speak for all, but there is also dignity, a pride and yes even a dash of chivalry to each FTM that has ever graced my life. To me this is hot, hot, hot!

Not to downplay any of the struggles that we each have experienced and continue to go through as we move through life, becoming comfortable with who we are and seeking acceptance, but I think that we can all agree that FTM's and MTF individuals have to go many, many extra miles to find that acceptance, even from their own peers.

This is a bravery that I am simply in awe of. There is confidence, incredible strength, perseverance and dignity to any person that is willing to stand up and say "This is who I am". I am proud of any person, of any gender, that has that kind of bravery and self confidence and is willing to risk so much to live their lives being true to themselves.

So, what attracts me to FTM's? It is all of the above and so much more. They bring out the best in me, just as I hope that I do for them.

[Toughy]

I'm sorry your life wasn't pleasent then...my family was dysfunctional no matter what decade they were in....lol....but let's just say I miss manners, courtesy, gentleness, education, family time at dinner, less crime, more overall trust & honesty.

At least that is what I experienced. I belive that common courtesy & manners should ALWAYS be exhibited in life no matter what year. I believe that gentlemanly actions & manners are lacking a lot now days....as in common politeness & courtesy.

No the '50's may not have been perfect, you're right.....but, they did have some things I miss now days. It's a shame that these things are referred to as "old time' values & traits.

Jonathan

I never said my life was unpleasant. I had a great childhood with a relatively functional family.

I saw as many bad manners and lack of a family time at dinner and lack of common courtesy etc among my friend's families as I saw among other friend's mannered families. June and Ward were not the norm in the 50's anymore than bad manners are the norm in the 21st century.

[MarquisdeShey]

Strength - the fact a woman/man can transition into the masculine/feminine realm makes nature and nurturer incredible. We are acculturated to belittle each others potential as men and as women. Change is powerful, we all know a lava becomes a butterfly by an incredible journey, all transitioning FtM/MtF are metamorphic - mind, spirit and then body.

Sensuality - I can't help but to think of Hermaphroditus born to the gods of female and male sexuality - you are in touch with all that is intense and powerful when it comes to the carnal aspect of being human. Thus I bow my head to you, for you so gracefully walked between two lines. More so, I respect the integrity that comes from being both. It's exotic.

Beauty - we are always changing. We are always evolving. FtMs are like mirrors. We often see ourselves with one face. FtMs have experienced and touched both of their faces.

Relationships come from trust, love, respect, and integrity. Its not who, but how you love that matters. As long as we battle with issues of equality we will battle. When we no longer need to explain ourselves and defend our humanity, well, we will all be having a whole lot hot sex...Smiles...

Thanks for being who you are.

[Kent]

Bumpity bump... ;)

[Nadeest]

I find it very easy to talk to ftms, as we often have similar experiences.

[Bèsame*]

I'm very attracted to courage.

[Kent]

Just a little Bump....

[firegal]

Just a little Bump....

Kent you keep getting these bump thingy,s :| allergic to sumpin?

Happy Easter bro! :byebye:

[Heavenleahangel]

Its not so much an attraction, but I totally "get it" when it comes to ftm's and it drives me wild! Its the respect, the special bond, the pleasure that no other can provide! Oh, be still my heart!!! I wish there were more ftm's around here. Maybe I should look at the idea of relocating!!! Heck, I'm only looking for ONE!!!

[Kent]

C'mon ladies, tell us how you really feel and what you find attractive in the trans guys you date... :heavyweight:

[Kent]

Kent you keep getting these bump thingy,s :| allergic to sumpin?

Happy Easter bro! :byebye:

Firegal, hey.. Sorry I missed your Happy Easter greeting. Happy late 4th of July...

[stepfordfemme]

Fuzzy Treasure trails down his stomach.....

Scars. For the all the life long battles he's fought. They are reminders of his strength and courage.

Kisses First when the door opens. Then "Hi" Then more kissing.

That impish smirk across his face, especially when you know he's thinking something evil.

Stubble. Across your silky skin in contrast to his roughness. Yum.

The smell of him on your skin when you're home in your own bed. Bliss.

His voice. Rawr.

His bookshelf. A book on his nightstand next to his glasses. *swoon*

[Nadeest]

I haven't had any ask me out, lately. :(

[VintageFemme]

Strength. Strength of mind, heart, soul and conviction. It takes a lot of courage to be who you really are and in some instances, to even know who you really are. This is the trait I find most desirable in FTM's.

And then the list of how incredibly sexy they can be just continues on from there...

Mhmmmm

[Koffeelvr]

Up to this point I have only dated women but I am finding myself more and more attracted to energy, packaging is less and less important.

I agree with this ...

I guess I would have to say that I am first attracted to Someone's personality first....their spirit...their soul....and oh, look!....He's an FtM.....ok then.

[Kurt]

Enjoyed reading through some of these posts. Haven't finished yet, but plan to..lol Very interested in seeing more of what the ladies are attracted to about us.....

[1ladyface]

I have a notebook I am now convinced is magic. It's nothing special, just a plain college-ruled notebook from Target but several years ago I wrote down everything I was looking for in a dog, right down to the ridiculous little details, before I went to the animal shelter. (adult dog, blocky heady, floppy ears, short fur, 40-60 lbs, swimmer, snuggler, big smile, affectionate, house-trained, knows basic commands, will answer to "Annie Boots", etc) When I did go to the shelter my little girl was there! And her name was already Annie.

I used the same magic notebook to write down everything I was looking for in a partner, again, right down to the ridiculous little details. (taller/bigger than me, female born and masculine, chivalrous, tattooed, non-smoker, protective but not jealous, cowboy archetype, kinky, intelligent, dislikes children, loves dogs, pastry chef, etc.) Over time the list came to fill an entire page of the notebook. And it got left on a shelf and forgotten, until I met Oliver.

Six months after moving to Oakland I met a wonderful FTM guy. Our first date was drinks and then a walk around Lake Merritt. Our second date he made an amazing dinner. Afterwards he showed me how to make truffles...and outed himself as a pastry chef.

I was reminded of the notebook and checked it the next morning. He was ALL of the things, right down to the astrological sign.

Now Oliver and I have been together four months. I recently showed him the magic notebook and we used it to write down a detailed description of our dream home. (a dog-friendly old converted industrial loft in Oakland with enough space for him to throw epic dinner parties and for me to have a sewing workspace. Natural light, exposed brick, gas stove, etc)

So maybe the notebook isn’t *really* magic but it did show me just how powerful clarity, intention, ritual and instinct can be. And that might even be better than magic. :bouquet:

[1ladyface]

My guy is the cowboy archetype and I'm the absent-minded professor archetype.

He is a:
street smart
action oriented
stone and somewhat stoic
fiercely loyal
protective
physically skilled
risk taker

I am a:
book smart
quiet
quirky
head-in-the-clouds, lost-in-thought
creative
empath
who enjoys doing things slowly and deliberately

We balance each other really well. He spurs me to action when I might otherwise overthink and become immobilized. And I remind him to slow down and breath. He's calm in a crisis and I have ALL the feelings. But on the rare occasion that he has feelings that he needs to deal with he knows I'm a safe, non-judgemental person to come to. We both work with our hands and love to make things but as a chef his creative process is loud, fast-paced, improvisational and often collaborative. As a seamstress my creative process is a quiet, slow, deliberate, cerebral and solitary.

I wouldn’t be good at his life and he wouldn’t be good at mine but we have shared values that manifest in very different ways in accordance with our temperaments and I think that’s why we work so well. We understand each others values and motivations but since our shared values have very different outlets there’s an amount of space built-in to our relationship that allows for some breathing room and individuality. It also allows us to admire each other from a distance.

His gorilla hands and my bunny heart make an excellent team.

[gotoseagrl]

most admirable: the courage to be One's true self.

[Kurt]

Bumping this thread. Would love to hear from the ladies.

[Leigh]

I love their strength, courage, the way they love and just how they are really wonderful people. I have dated two FTM's in my past and would do so again if the right one came along :)

[SirenManda]

I'll bump.

What attracts me the most? Being who you are regardless of what people expect of you. Picture being purple, but feeling like your meant to be green. I couldn't imagine the emotional tole that could take, but I'd give anything to make sure everyone felt as comfortable as they could and just be themselves.

Plus... physical attraction is stronger with FTM's for me. No idea why, strength is a big turn on though.

[Candelion]

For me the obvious attraction to trans men is their masculinity. But it is their specific brand of masculinity that attracts me. There is a thoughtfulness, a mindfulness, a deliberateness to their maleness. It seems to me that through their journey they have thought a lot about what it is to be male. Although they know who they are, they don't take their masculinity for granted because every day it is challenged and questioned by others. Through answering these challenges and exploring with mindfulness the nature of their masculinity, they at some point determine what type of man they want to be. It is my experience that trans men usually aspire to embrace all the good and desirable attributes of manhood. Yes, they may not successfully achieve all they want to be as men, but because they have so deliberately contemplated the nature of their masculinity, they are better men for it. I celebrate you and thank you for that.

[cricket26]

their minds fascinate me...

[pumpndude]

For me, I will always be attracted to women and only women....

[legally_b10nde]

I admire their courage to have commitment to make the transitions. I like the semi-boyish "Bieber" look to clean cut militant look, i.e. Carter the Body. *drools* Scent of musky cologne, and gym rat types with big ole arms and hands~ hehehe