Veiling, Burqas and Western Feminism

[Nat]

A friend of mine had a recent facebook rant after running across a woman in a burqa. The burqa'd woman was walking with a woman wearing a khimar. My friend said she was surprised when they walked by that they were both speaking unaccented American English. While she didn't take issue with the khimar, she had a real problem with the obliteration of the burqa'd woman's face - she felt like the woman was being robbed of her humanity.

http://jadmadi.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/hijab1.jpg

I'm just really wondering what the thoughts on veiling are within *this* community. I think there are many feminists among us, even though the barbs of feminism sometimes sting the butch-femme and trans communities. I would also imagine we may have (or will have) some Muslims among us - and maybe some Muslim feminists?

I think it's a lot easier to look at another culture and ascribe victim/oppressor meaning to different customs, and I even think there's a fair amount of projection in doing so. I imagine a woman can wear a burqa from a feminist, empowered place or from a very disempowered place or from a purely spiritual place, etc.

I feel like even beginning this thread is objectifying in a way, but at the same time I feel like there is a tension within Western feminism between respecting cultural and religious customs and fighting against patriarchy everywhere, and I hope this topic is worthy of discussion.

Anyway, I'd love to know the perceptions, perspectives, thoughts and experiences within this community regarding veiling.

[Nat]

As a side-note - in my initial post, I sometimes combine and sometimes differentiate the practices of veiling and wearing a burqa. There is such a huge range between the hijab or shayla and the niqab and burqa that I almost consider them to be entirely different. I am interested in perspectives on any and all versions of religious/cultural female head-covering, and I assume feelings may or may not vary depending on the type.

[JustJo]

A friend of mine had a recent facebook rant after running across a woman in a burqa. The burqa'd woman was walking with a woman wearing a khimar. My friend said she was surprised when they walked by that they were both speaking unaccented American English. While she didn't take issue with the khimar, she had a real problem with the obliteration of the burqa'd woman's face - she felt like the woman was being robbed of her humanity.

I think it's a lot easier to look at another culture and ascribe victim/oppressor meaning to different customs, and I even think there's a fair amount of projection in doing so. I imagine a woman can wear a burqa from a feminist, empowered place or from a very disempowered place or from a purely spiritual place, etc.



Hi Nat, and thank you for starting this thread. I was thinking some of the same thoughts after reading about the move to outlaw wearing of the burqa in France, and wrestling a little bit with the whole idea.

I should start out by saying that I'm not Muslim, and I do consider myself a feminist...although my definition of that has sometimes not fit neatly with the definitions of others.

Your sentence that I highlighted in red is really what speaks to me. I get so tired of people telling others how to live, think or behave. A woman wearing a burqa may very well be forced to wear it and be hating it....or she may embrace it for reasons of her own and revel in it. We won't know unless we ask her...and no doubt the reaction will vary from woman to woman. I don't believe it's our place to choose how she dresses any more than it would be for her to choose how we do.

For me, the essence of feminism is that women should be free to express themselves, however that looks...steel toed boots or 4 inch heels, work outside the home or inside it, dressed modestly or barely dressed at all.

When I was growing up my mother was an uber-feminist...and still is. For her, everything traditional was an instrument of oppression and would not be tolerated. I couldn't learn to type, couldn't own a Barbie doll, was forced into woodshop in school (which I despised) and was belittled for my dream of being either a hairdresser or a home economics teacher. Under her definition of feminism, women had to be employed, preferably professionals, strident, unyielding, aggressive and probably not married or bearing children.

Fast forward four decades, and I have found a happy medium for myself. I have a good corporate job (but I'm a cog in the wheel, not a vp), an advanced degree, and I work from home...which allows me to be the kind of mom I want to be, and to indulge my own love of keeping a house, cooking and baking. I like being home. Yes, I could make more money and be more "successful" (by her definition) if I was more aggressive, pushed harder, worked harder...and basically acted unlike myself. I choose not to. That's my brand of feminism.

So...back to the original topic (sorry... I'm wordy)....I can easily see how a woman would embrace the burqa. Perhaps for spiritual or religious reasons, perhaps for a feeling of personal safety, perhaps as a way to honor her own body or her partner...I can see many reasons why that would be the case. And all of them seem like valid and understandable reasons to me. In a world that objectifies women's bodies, a burqa would be a barrier against that kind of judgement...and a place to be free of that. I get tired of men looking at my breasts, my butt...and I often wish there was a way to just turn that off. I am inherently physically modest outside of my own intimate relationship with my partner. No...not a prude....but you won't see a pic of me showing cleavage, you won't even see me in a bikini at the beach. I just don't. My body is mine and my partner's...and not for public consumption.

While some feminists may decry the burqa and say it should be not be allowed (as France is trying to do), to me they are violating the most fundamental principle of feminism...that women should be allowed to choose for themselves what they want and how they choose to live.

[waxnrope]

the question for me, is what goes on behind the veil? what utterances, spoken in secret, that a lip reader could decipher? is a mood, an expression, hidden from view? and, as Trinh T. Minh ha implies (and, no I do not have the citation, but if you PM me, I will go and find it), what of the power of gazing and not being noticed doing so, nor gaining the reciprocal look?
"western" feminism, indeed ...

[betenoire]

For me, the essence of feminism is that women should be free to express themselves, however that looks...steel toed boots or 4 inch heels, work outside the home or inside it, dressed modestly or barely dressed at all.

Exactly. Feminism is about power and choice.

[betenoire]

Exactly. Feminism is about power and choice.

Oh, and I wanted to come back to say something else:

For a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture/customs/religion/whatever is wrong and needs to be changed is waaaaaaaaaay fucked up.

It's not only anti-feminist when men tell women what they can or can not do with their bodies/lives. It's also anti-feminist when women do that to each other - even if they think they are doing it in the name of feminism.

[JustJo]

Oh, and I wanted to come back to say something else:

For a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture/customs/religion/whatever is wrong and needs to be changed is waaaaaaaaaay fucked up.

It's not only anti-feminist when men tell women what they can or can not do with their bodies/lives. It's also anti-feminist when women do that to each other - even if they think they are doing it in the name of feminism.

Absolutely! It's ironic to me (in a gut wrenching way) that we are frequently our own oppressors in this manner.

So often we (general "we") forget that our standards, morals, values, beliefs, etc. are just that - ours. Not right, not true, not correct, not "the way it should be" - just our own. And everyone is entitled to their own....not ours.

[dreadgeek]

I think that the core issue is whether or not a woman has a *choice* in the matter. If any given woman wants to wear a burqa and it is her choice--and it is freely made, not coerced in any way--then I see no problem. It's what she wants to do. If, however, she is being coerced then I see that as highly problematic. I think that it is problematic even if her culture says 'all women must do this'.

I have to say, I'm far *less* sanguine about the idea that cultures trump individuals because if I had been born 10 or 20 years earlier, I would have been born into a culture that said that I, as a black child, could not go to school with white children. That was the culture of the South--that was the argument that white segregationists made was that 'Northerners are comin' down here and trying to change our culture'. The fact that black people were the targets of that culture disappeared. In the same way, I think that we Western feminists betray the core principles of feminism--that women are human beings--when we say "well, I would not want to live in that culture but if that woman's culture says it's okay then who am I to say..."

Either human beings are entitled to be treated with dignity because of some inherent humanness or we aren't. If we aren't, if our right to self-determination is based upon the culture we are born into then NO group has a leg to stand on when arguing that they are oppressed. After all, isn't it their *culture* that says that they should be oppressed?

So whether a woman wears a veil has to, for me, be about whether she has any choice to NOT wear the veil. If she can and do so without harm then that's no problem. If, however, not wearing the veil would resort in her being subject to social sanction then I have to stand with her as an *individual* and not a representative type of a certain culture.

Put another way, how far are people willing to take the 'you can't criticize another culture' meme? To think about this in a visceral sense I ask you to think of two scenarios:

Scenario 1: It is 1963. You are from England. You observe the treatment of blacks in the American South. Should you criticize it? It's not *your* culture. If you should, on what basis do you do so? If you should not, why not?

Scenario 2: A non-Western culture says that boys should be educated but to educate girls is a waste of time at best and an abomination at worst. Is it wrong to criticize that culture? If not, why not? If it is wrong to criticize that culture, why is it wrong?

One last question: what if we were to take a giant step backward in this country and homosexuality were made illegal. Would you want human rights groups in, say, Europe to speak out on our behalf or would you want them to mind their own business since American culture and European culture aren't precisely the same thing?

[betenoire]

I think you misunderstood me, honestly. I wasn't saying that the bottom line is that if it's someone's culture we should stfu and mind our own business. I was saying that part of the reason that some people are so freaked out by women who cover their heads/faces is because they are freaked out IN GENERAL by that other culture. Just like people lose their shit over someone carrying a kirpan. You can't deny the truth in that.

I think that the core issue is whether or not a woman has a *choice* in the matter. If any given woman wants to wear a burqa and it is her choice--and it is freely made, not coerced in any way--then I see no problem. It's what she wants to do.

Which is exactly what I was driving at in my first post.

Either human beings are entitled to be treated with dignity because of some inherent humanness or we aren't. If we aren't, if our right to self-determination is based upon the culture we are born into then NO group has a leg to stand on when arguing that they are oppressed. After all, isn't it their *culture* that says that they should be oppressed?

No denying that some women who cover up are forced into that position - but that does not mean that de facto every single woman who covers up has done so against her will.

As for your questions, my only answer is that there is a pretty huge difference between systematic or legal bullshit - and an individual choice.

Equating my assertion (that one cannot presume that each time a woman covers up it's because she is oppressed) with your examples feels pretty far reaching to me.

[turasultana]

In my Brooklyn neighborhood, many women cover their heads - not full Burqua but Hijab or some other variation (I'm not familiar enough to be sure which of the images it matches). Many wear it with traditional dress, but the especially the younger girls where it with jeans and sneakers and are being silly laughing like all teenagers on their way to school. Some with mothers not wearing it, some with, some with friends covering their heads, some not. For some maybe their father insists, but for some I'm sure it's a choice as well. But they do occasionally get looks or head shakes as if to say "poor thing."

My neighborhood also has orthodox and hasidic jews, and all those women (married at least) cover their heads as well, but with wigs, not scarfs. How come it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue that they cover? I don't see many debates on whether jewish women are being forced to cover their heads. It seems we assume they're doing it by choice. Just a thought.

[JustJo]

My neighborhood also has orthodox and hasidic jews, and all those women (married at least) cover their heads as well, but with wigs, not scarfs. How come it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue that they cover? I don't see many debates on whether jewish women are being forced to cover their heads. It seems we assume they're doing it by choice. Just a thought.

And an interesting thought turasultana...I've never heard anyone say a word about hasidic jewish women and their wigs. Perhaps because they don't cover the face, but not all veiling covers the face either, and those women and girls (as you pointed out) still get the "poor thing" reaction.

I do appreciate the points you raised dreadgeek, and am flailing around a bit with words to describe my thoughts. I guess, for me, it boils down to if it is an individual choice or if the behavior or circumstance is forced upon the individual. If an individual is making a choice ...whether to veil or not, to go to a single-race or single-gender school, to subscribe to traditional values (no matter how they may appear to those outside of that culture), then I think we need to respect their choice.

If people are being oppressed and asking for help, then that's a completely different issue in my mind.

Not being a Muslim woman, I don't know what pressures they face to veil or not...from culture, from religious leaders, from family. I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that women in the U.S., Canada, France, etc. are making that choice at least somewhat freely...although I'm open to hearing from anyone in that position that I'm wrong on that.

What offends me is when we decide (as the government of France is attempting to do) that women may not wear the burqa...regardless of their individual choice. It would be the same as legislating that women could not wear men's clothing, or making bras illegal, or any number of other ridiculous scenarios.

[Enchantress]

I spent several years studying Islam when I was younger.

Most people assume that the woman is being forced to cover herself, but in reality most do it by choice (in my experience).

My then best friend converted to Islam to marry her husband (who is Pakastani). She never covered herself unless she was in the mosque, and then only a loose head scarf (I did this as well when in the mosque).

After many years, she herself decided to wear a head covering daily. Not because she was pressured or hounded to do so. But because it became a part of what she sought and who she was.

In Islam covering oneself is not meant to be demeaning. In fact, the thought is that a woman will be treated equally.

Islam does not set out to lessen a womans power (although any religion can and is skewed by those with nefarious motives), instead a woman is revered.


There is no mention in the Koran of a woman not working, being able to own land or things or not being able to drive. On the contrary.

All of these mandates have been set forth by misogynist males who seek to control (all) not enlighten.

A woman does not forfit her right to be a feminist (nor should she be looked upon in such a way by others) simply because she chooses to cover herself.

It is her right.

With that said (and as I've stated above) there are some who do so because they fear retribution, from either a husband, father or brother. This to me is ever so sad.

Unfortunately, due to extremists, a religion that holds much beauty has been marred.

On one last note: Throughout history, women have covered themselves, even in Christianity. Just a bit of food for thought.

[dreadgeek]

I think you misunderstood me, honestly. I wasn't saying that the bottom line is that if it's someone's culture we should stfu and mind our own business. I was saying that part of the reason that some people are so freaked out by women who cover their heads/faces is because they are freaked out IN GENERAL by that other culture. Just like people lose their shit over someone carrying a kirpan. You can't deny the truth in that.


I may have misunderstood you because I got the part about choice. I didn't think the issue in contention was whether or not women had the right to choose to wear a veil--I took that as a given that there is no one here who would contend that women can't make the free choice to wear a veil.



For a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture/customs/religion/whatever is wrong and needs to be changed is waaaaaaaaaay fucked up.

I was reacting to this statement. It depends upon the situation. Reading this as it appears, it seems you are saying that it's wrong--full-stop--for a white woman to tell a brown woman that her culture is wrong, etc. I can't agree with that because if it's wrong in one dimension--for a white woman to tell a brown woman that--then it's wrong in the other direction as well. There are things that are just screwed up no matter where it's happening or who it's happening to.

I wonder how many feminists actually believe that *any* woman wearing a veil is oppressed. A lot of what I hear and read from feminists--when we criticize women covering--is criticism of a culture that says to women that their very presence in society is problematic, that they are temptresses who must be covered up for the sake of men and social order. I imagine that there are some Western feminists who jump to conclusions that no woman would freely choose to veil but I don't know too many who do jump to that conclusion.

At any rate, my response was specifically about the quote immediately prior to my response. If the culture says that educating women is wrong and it just so happens that the culture saying it is brown, I think it is entirely appropriate for any feminist, from any culture, to say "hold on. That is injustice."

[Rook]

Nat,
thanks for asking..
Not many do bother with asking and 99% of the time consider it Oppressive.
In a lot of cases, it could be.
But, they're well within the Minority.
I was raised a Muslim, I chose for myself when to Wear my Abaya/Niqab, using the Following verse
O Prophet, tell your wives and daughters, and the women of the faithful, to draw their wraps over them. They will thus be recognised and no harm will come to them. God is forgiving and kind.33:59
I say I chose , because I've yet to menstruate, so my Muslim Relatives were rather Lenient, despite being Salafi.
That and the fact I chose to wear an Abaya/Niqab, should say a lot about where I stand with both the Veils & Feminism.
Depending on the "School of Thought" the womyn was raised in or converted to etc., is the type of Veil you'll see in the Islamic world/community.
I no longer Veil though, I'll explain why in a moment..
But when I did, yes, there's a Huge Huge "Mystery".."What color's the hair", "Pink lips or deep red?".."Pimples?".."Fugly or knockout?"
The only ones who could answer all those were my Immediate Blood Relatives, whomever I dated {yeah, from time to time even my girl asked, if she wasn't a Muslim, being satisfied with my answer, they didnt care after}, and of course the women within the Segregated Mosques I attended.
After much..hmm..soulsearching, I stopped mostly because of the Imams stance on Lesbianism, I figured "If I'm going to hell, might as well have fun on the way"{Despite there being Zero mention of Lesbian in the Qu'ran}.
It never oppressed me, it actually felt Liberating, Protected out in Public, gave me a Unique sense of Privacy..
I did realize though, ever since Sept. 11, if you're wearing a Burqah/Chador/Abaya/Niqab, you're actually bringing much More attention to your presence.
The purpose of the Veiling is Modesty, not to attract attention and let yourself be known as Devout.
After 9/11, that went out the window in the U.S.{And Puerto Rico}.
Sad, but true.
However, every time I see a Full Niqaabi, I do feel a twang of Envy, and sincere Admiration.{Not to mention, some are cute when they unveil in the Mosque}

On the other subject..
I do agree, it's slightly Hypocritical to be Feminist and dictate another womyn's choice to Veil, Islamic or not, full face, or Partial covering.
I've yet to hear any Devoted catholic criticize Nuns {They don't cover their Face, but Many nuns, not only Veil, but very seldom are allowed out of their Cloister ...Feel free to look up Purdah}
As well as Haredi women and their own Coverings...
Or Protestants demand Amish/Mennonite womyn be given choice to wear pants and straw hats rather than their Bonnet and plain Dresses...
The issue in France chafes my ass, often...
Along with Switzerland, and their banning of Minarets {They should look into their Cathedrals also, Bells make Horrendous Noises sometimes.}

The more Liberal the Muslim's "School" is, the more is allowed..
Whereas, the more Conservative, the more Covered.
I've seen Niqaabi's help in the Mosque Kitchen side by side with a partially Veiled friend.
Some veiling are Cultural rather than Religious, but those, if you got a trained eye, U can distinguish quickly.

Besides, it can't be all that bad...From an Outsiders view, who knows..
You{in general} might be dissing a veiled Butch
:sunglass:

[julieisafemme]

I spent several years studying Islam when I was younger.

Most people assume that the woman is being forced to cover herself, but in reality most do it by choice (in my experience).

My then best friend converted to Islam to marry her husband (who is Pakastani). She never covered herself unless she was in the mosque, and then only a loose head scarf (I did this as well when in the mosque).

After many years, she herself decided to wear a head covering daily. Not because she was pressured or hounded to do so. But because it became a part of what she sought and who she was.

In Islam covering oneself is not meant to be demeaning. In fact, the thought is that a woman will be treated equally.

Islam does not set out to lessen a womans power (although any religion can and is skewed by those with nefarious motives), instead a woman is revered.


There is no mention in the Koran of a woman not working, being able to own land or things or not being able to drive. On the contrary.

All of these mandates have been set forth by misogynist males who seek to control (all) not enlighten.

A woman does not forfit her right to be a feminist (nor should she be looked upon in such a way by others) simply because she chooses to cover herself.

It is her right.

With that said (and as I've stated above) there are some who do so because they fear retribution, from either a husband, father or brother. This to me is ever so sad.

Unfortunately, due to extremists, a religion that holds much beauty has been marred.

On one last note: Throughout history, women have covered themselves, even in Christianity. Just a bit of food for thought.

When I was a young woman I worked for a Muslim family. I remember talking to the sister and saying how sad it was that women were veiled. She gave me the gentle slap down by pointing out how privilged it was for me to judge another woman and her choice. She explained to me that many Muslim women feel profoundly sorry for and appalled at the way American women dress. They see us as oppressed because they view the dress as being directed for and by men for their pleasure. I had never thought about it this way and it has stuck with me.

[Rook]

What most westerners seem to Omit, and I find this rather interesting..
Muslim Men have their "Modesty" rules as well..
I believe it was Enchantress who mentioned working rights, and Land owning plus Driving in womyn's case....
I love that part, it's VERY convenient for so-called Religious men to go Blank on these little tidbits for womyn, which is another reason why I ignore their Rantings, they claim out of one corner of the Mouth to Follow the Prophets example, and through the other corner they pick and choose whats good for their own purposes.
Not all men are this way, but, unfortunately the ones who Do this, are often in a position of "Power"
Thankfully, in some Islamic countries, womyn are given certain amount of Power, mostly because of who their Family is/was {Bhutto for example}, even then, they're not Immune to fundamentalists Twisting Islam for their own convenience, but then, from what I've studied, Islam isn't the only "Organized Religion" to do this...
Whether western Feminism chooses to agree/Accept this portion in History or Not, or are a bit uneducated in the matter is a bit distressing, but easy to shrug off considering how....prejudiced some Feminists are..not All..just..Some..
Islam has mandated since the early 7th Century certain rights for Womyn..
Take for instance, Marriage..
A womyn must consent to Any marriage contract, or refuse..yes, contract...piece of paper, specifics on what the bride must do, and Not do, Likewise for the Husband..in said contract if the Bride is rather young, the Husband *if the father of the Bride is knowledgeable he'll push this part* cannot touch the Bride until she reaches their country's age of consent {this lil part is mostly when the marriage is pure politics}..
If she's quiet, that's an automatic consent to the marriage...
She also has had Inheritance rights long before the suffragists marched.
She can work out of the House, and her wages are hers and only hers to use as she deems fit, within reason.
She can also divorce {it's slightly more difficult than a man's ability*he only needs 4 witnesses and say "I divorce you" 3 times*, but she can}
In Islam, a womyn has the same right to Education as a Man {That shit they pulled in Afghanistan is a crock}.
I'll take it a Step further...
The Prophets 1st wife, Khadijah was a very Prosperous businesswomyn...
At the time, he simply tagged along, he did learn a lot from her as well..
After Khadijah's death, he remarried...a few times..the best example I can give is Aisha bint Abu Bakr, she was Perfect, Mother of all Muslims, and also the cause and root for many critics against Islam..
Her age is irrelevant, given 3 reasons...
a} Although the marriage contract was signed, she stayed with her Family for a few years before the Prophet took her to his dwellings...
b} If he were to have traumatized her in any way, she wouldn't be devoted, she wouldnt be loyal, and yeah Abu Bakr would've probably broken any ties with him.
c} During those times? the age she had was a common age to marry, that doesn't mean it's proper even then, but almost every society has their own structures, what one thinks is Heinous and Appalling, to the other it's perfectly normal..
Unfortunately some pervs like to use this for their own gain w/o actually bothering with the Political purpose and conditions for her Marriage.
She is known as a well-versed Scholar, the Legit source of many Hadith and she was a helluva Warrior, for the most part.She led the armies at one point in the Dispute of Succession, which to this Very day Separates Sunni's from Shi'a.{the division between Sunni and Shi'a is almost purely Political}

My point?
Just because the womyn's veiled doesn't always mean she's Oppressed.
I've seen Niqaabi nurses, Lawyers, Teachers...
Their Hijab can tell you their Status in the Community {Political, royalty, Tribal, etc}, but that's mostly the cultural side.
In some cases & I have found this very curious...
I've seen veiled Athletes, in the Olympics....
I do agree though about the Driving issue in Saudiya...Let's see if you can see why...
Imagine a woman, fully veiled..Burqah, Niqaab, Abaya..etc...
Behind the wheel, very fast Truck {I dont think Saudi has enforced speed limits last I checked, I could be wrong, don't hold my word as Gospel}, probably windows Down since a/c is busted {and she lives in the desert!!!}
Yes she can see thru that Mesh, or thru the Slits in the material....
What about the rest of the Flowing, Billowing cloth that flaps in the winds wake?....
Believe me, I've tested this in the U.S., I took a friend, she was modestly dressed...
At 15 MPH, she was already fighting with her Hijab {partial veil}, pinning it somehow behind her head...
At 45 MPH?...windows down?...Highway?..I was pretty much praying, hoping we didn't encounter a Mac Truck, or 5-0.
BEGGED her to park at the rest stop, and remove her outter garments if she wanted me to sit next to her again....ever.

I agree wholeheartedly with Enchantress..
All these "Oppressive" actions to stifle women from Education, Jobs, Land, and Status in some countries is just one more way to shout all over the world {Including Islamic} "I got a tiny Winky, my sister pissed me off, and my mother allowed my father to fill my head with horseshit & tales of easy women."
Btw, Female circumcision is purely Cultural under the false guise of Islam...
Besides, men, for the most part also have to wear a masculine type "Veil", or at the Least a skullcap... their shirts have to be a certain length...
And if they wear shorts, it must cover the Knees a lil..
don't believe me?
Check out most of the Saudi royal Men {they're not wearing that to brag about the status, mostly...I say mostly cuz some will happily wear elaborate Thobes, but then..they're filthy rich}, The king of Jordan, Syria, most of the Middle East... and yeah, check out Qaddafi..
Try touching their "veil" {keffiyeh}...u might as well stuff your hand down the backside of their pants and smile with a camera "say cheese !!!"
It's almost as much Cultural as Religious....

However, I will say this...
Just because they're Veiled..And appear modest..?
doesn't really mean they are.
You can be Modest/Devoted/spiritual and wear every day clothes compared to how some behave.



"Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty......And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what ordinarily appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms...." (Quran 24:30,31).

[Enchantress]

You're absolutely correct!

I did not bring up the males roles in Islam due to the fact that the initial discussion was in regard to feminism.

Men are definitely held to a certain standard of modesty as well.

During my years discovering and studying amongst those who practiced Islam I never ran across unhappiness within the community.

Thank you for the information you've shared!

[Rook]

My pleasure, Enchantress, welcome..
I can understand why you stayed on the Feminist subject, I thought the same earlier today..
I did, however, see a small window of opportunity to draw a comparison tonight, w/o derailing the Thread {or..trying not to}..


:2butch:

[Martina]

i am glad that it's not illegal to wear any of the above and that women can do as they choose in this country. The fights over this in Belgium, France, and Italy make me grateful for our constitution. i do not believe the Europeans when they argue that it is a public safety concern.

Personally, i do not want to see women veiled. i do not like it. But i do not live these women's lives.

What i have done in the past is give money to organizations that support freedom for women in regions where it seems like there is little. i have given money to an organization that builds schools for girls, and i used to contribute to a group that outfitted girls' soccer teams in North Africa.

[JustJo]

I just wanted to pop back in here with a "thank you" for Enchantress and Rook for sharing your experiences. It helps me to hear the voice of people who have direct experience...rather than just the media or the opinions of those of us who have not. You add an important element to the discussion....and I appreciate it. :bouquet:

[Martina]

i just saw this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/opinion/05cope.html?ref=global). It's by a French politician, trying to justify to Americans why they feel the need to outlaw veils that cover the face. i do not believe it for a moment. It is cultural. And i sympathize with that. i do. But still.

You know that London is the city most covered by video surveillance in the world. i cannot believe that that is acceptable to them, but it is. i work in a high crime area. i have been the victim of crimes. But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.

There's an article in this week's Nation, i think, by Katha Pollit -- about Berlin. They have had some form of public health insurance since the late 19th Century. And so on. i too envy a lot of the public institutions that some European countries have. But i would not give up the right to dress and worship as i please for any of them. Maybe that is a privileged person speaking, one who has usually had health insurance.

i am not jingoistic about the U.S., but the day will never come in this country when it is illegal to wear the veil. It's impossible to imagine. And i am very happy to come from THAT tradition. There definitely are things about the U.S. that i like, and this is one of them. That feeling IN ME that, by god, the day they pass a law like that, i will be on the streets to defend a practice i find personally abhorrent. And i know lots of people -- conservative and liberal -- who would feel the same.

[JustJo]

But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.



Wow Martina...thanks for posting this link...and all I can say is "me too."

I found myself reading and thinking "is this for real? can he be serious?" But, alas, he appears to be.

I found myself offended on behalf of all women who make this choice that he equated the burqa with a mask...and then this statement...

"The person who wears one is no longer identifiable; she is a shadow among others, lacking individuality, avoiding responsibility."

Wow...just wow...

So, based on his argument, ski masks should also be outlawed...because they are used to cover the face of criminals. Surgical masks, worn by those who are ill or afraid of illness....outlawed. My big, fuzzy scarf - which I wear up over my mouth and nose on cold winter days....outlawed.

By his logic, to be a member of society I am obligated to show my face or I am somehow lacking individuality, avoiding responsibility...and evidently endangering the very fabric of society.

Wow.

Makes me want to go get a burqa and wear it to the French embassy just because....

[dreadgeek]

i just saw this (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/05/opinion/05cope.html?ref=global). It's by a French politician, trying to justify to Americans why they feel the need to outlaw veils that cover the face. i do not believe it for a moment. It is cultural. And i sympathize with that. i do. But still.

You know that London is the city most covered by video surveillance in the world. i cannot believe that that is acceptable to them, but it is. i work in a high crime area. i have been the victim of crimes. But this stuff just brings out the unreconstructed civil libertarian in me.

There's an article in this week's Nation, i think, by Katha Pollit -- about Berlin. They have had some form of public health insurance since the late 19th Century. And so on. i too envy a lot of the public institutions that some European countries have. But i would not give up the right to dress and worship as i please for any of them. Maybe that is a privileged person speaking, one who has usually had health insurance.

i am not jingoistic about the U.S., but the day will never come in this country when it is illegal to wear the veil. It's impossible to imagine. And i am very happy to come from THAT tradition. There definitely are things about the U.S. that i like, and this is one of them. That feeling IN ME that, by god, the day they pass a law like that, i will be on the streets to defend a practice i find personally abhorrent. And i know lots of people -- conservative and liberal -- who would feel the same.

Interesting that this discussion is happening now. I'm currently listening to an audiobook recording of "The Future of Liberalism" by Alan Wolfe. In the book he calls liberals back to a form of 'classical' liberalism with a focus on individual rights. At present, I'm at the chapter where he talks about immigration, multiculturalism and religious pluralism and he draws a distinct contrast between the American way of handling these issues and the European way.

The American way of dealing with these issues is to err on the side of the individual--so if someone wants to wear the veil here, there should be no law prohibiting it nor should that person have to fear social sanction regardless of their reasons for wearing the veil. In Europe the tendency is to err on the side of social cohesion--thus France's ban on the veil or the Dutch ban on minarets, etc. One interesting thing that the author points out is that Americans have a very *different* view of immigration than most Europeans because while both America and Europe have a liberal intellectual tradition, the latter does *not* have a body of liberal thought applied to the question of immigration while Americans do.


Cheers
Aj

[JustJo]

Interesting that this discussion is happening now. I'm currently listening to an audiobook recording of "The Future of Liberalism" by Alan Wolfe. In the book he calls liberals back to a form of 'classical' liberalism with a focus on individual rights.
Cheers
Aj

Something else for my reading list....thanks Aj :)

[Rook]

Actually...
In the U.S., there's a few states that Mandate I.D. w/o any head coverings at all, regardless of Religious affiliation..
Muslims, Sikh's, catholics, Jews are disputing this..
Passports permit head coverings, why not state I.D.?

http://islam.about.com/od/dress/f/hijab_id.htm

In Most airports in the U.S., the only procedure a muslim lady doesn't receive is a Cavity check..
I'll happily describe my experiences with Airlines, post- 9/11...My brothers as well...pvt. only.
In Puerto Rico however, once I said I refused to allow a Man touching me in any way, they accommodated me, with a woman..lol {should be Policy, especially if the woman's muttaqun {Pious}}

[Hack]

i am glad that it's not illegal to wear any of the above and that women can do as they choose in this country. The fights over this in Belgium, France, and Italy make me grateful for our constitution. i do not believe the Europeans when they argue that it is a public safety concern.

Personally, i do not want to see women veiled. i do not like it. But i do not live these women's lives.

What i have done in the past is give money to organizations that support freedom for women in regions where it seems like there is little. i have given money to an organization that builds schools for girls, and i used to contribute to a group that outfitted girls' soccer teams in North Africa.

I follow European politics as sort of a hobby since visiting there a year ago. I had many interesting discussions with native Dutch people about their immigration issues with Muslims. The entire head covering issue is a hot button in the Netherlands, as well...and it really makes the Dutch uncomfortable to discuss it since they pride themselves on their tolerance. The most popular politician in the Netherlands right now just published his "manifesto," and this is one of the top issues. I am always fascinated with how the western European countries say they are "integrating" their immigrants, but are really doing anything but. I viewed many of the policies in the Netherlands to be separatist -- on both sides.

Here in Michigan, we have a very large Middle Eastern community, mostly Iraqi Chaldeans. Many of the high schools in the Detroit area have made accommodations for girls in gym classes and on athletic teams to allow for compliance with their beliefs (not requiring them to wear shorts and to be able to keep their head coverings on).

Jake

[Rook]

Here in Michigan, we have a very large Middle Eastern community, mostly Iraqi Chaldeans. Many of the high schools in the Detroit area have made accommodations for girls in gym classes and on athletic teams to allow for compliance with their beliefs (not requiring them to wear shorts and to be able to keep their head coverings on).

Jake

Last I was told, Michigan actually has the largest muslim community in North America, rivaling New York...
Dearborn, in particular..With a very big Mosque to follow suit.
My curiosity will eventually get the better part of me...