Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Linus]

Here is what I see, if I may. I see you as a strong, intelligent, masculine female/trans energy who "lives" to serve, respect and honor a strong intelligent feminine woman .

It is interesting that I bring this up. I was reading through the Femme Led Relationships and Trans/Butch Bottoms thread and picked up on the comment above by Jess. It is interesting that Weatherboi's preferred pronoun of "Hey Boy" and Identity is "Owned Boy" without mention of trans but the assumption is that he is either a masculine female or has trans energy.

Weatherboi's challenge is another form of invisibility (similar to PapaC's thread on invisibility in the Queer world (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1387)): in this case, he's not seen as the man he is. Not a trans man. A man. Period.

While I may identify as a transman, not all those who transition see themselves as trans anything. I think it's something that we recognize within the community just as much as we need to see and acknowledge female-ID'd butches. It is something that I didn't realize existed until I was in a support group for "masculine spectrum" individuals who were assigned female at birth. It was there that I learned about the fact that some really do not see themselves ever as female and to suggest anything else is insulting and dismissive of them.

The same is true for some women who many would identity as a trans woman but they are anything but that.

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

[Jess]

Linus, I made an apology to Grant in that thread if you care to read further, explaining my "confusion" as to his gender pronoun preference. Please note that when ever possible and without confusing endings placed on nicknames, etc. I DO try as much as humanly possible to respect a persons choice of pronoun .
Grant refers to himself as trans in his opening statement in that thread had you read it entirely.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I think for a lot of us, the multitude of preferences in what someone chooses to be called ( especially when it says "boi" here and "boy " there and trans also) is just simply confusing and not altogether an attempt at creating "invisiblity". Not all of us have had the privilege of attending such informative workshops/ support groups and may be less aware than those whom have.

Your post specifically highlighting something I wrote feels like a personal affront and I am very offended and very disappointed that you chose to "read" into it something that wasn't there to volley wanting to start a thread. Perhaps if your own issues weren't already present you would have been able to see the same inconsistencies in how I should have addressed Grant and why it was confusing for me.

To answer your question for me personally, if someone says they are a man, then they are. If they call themselves "boi" I see them as long ago defined as a female who identifies as a masculine boyish energy. If they call themselves all of the above, then by God, they are all of the above.

[Linus]

Linus, I made an apology to Grant in that thread if you care to read further, explaining my "confusion" as to his gender pronoun preference. Please note that when ever possible and without confusing endings placed on nicknames, etc. I DO try as much as humanly possible to respect a persons choice of pronoun .
Grant refers to himself as trans in his opening statement in that thread had you read it entirely.

I am not trying to be disrespectful. I think for a lot of us, the multitude of preferences in what someone chooses to be called ( especially when it says "boi" here and "boy " there and trans also) is just simply confusing and not altogether an attempt at creating "invisiblity". Not all of us have had the privilege of attending such informative workshops/ support groups and may be less aware than those whom have.

Your post specifically highlighting something I wrote feels like a personal affront and I am very offended and very disappointed that you chose to "read" into it something that wasn't there to volley wanting to start a thread. Perhaps if your own issues weren't already present you would have been able to see the same inconsistencies in how I should have addressed Grant and why it was confusing for me.


Fair enough in Grant using trans in his definition (I did miss it when I read through the thread a few times). And I saw the apology (it took me a while to forge this thread so I think it's a timing thing) you posted after I finished this. I do apologize for not seeing that "trans" in the first post. I can definitely see how that could be confusing.

It's not meant to be an affront but rather a starting point for everyone. It is something that I've seen some men and women go through. I've talked with some who are really upset at being even slightly referenced as trans and I think it is something that is valid to discuss. Even for some trans individuals (myself included) we do this. We get wrapped in the idea that if you are changing the external then you must be trans. And that isn't always a valid way of looking at things.

I appreciate that you weren't trying to be disrespectful. And I recognize that not everyone has been part of the groups I have been, which is why I think it's worthwhile to discuss these things. We had those very discussions in those groups. Do you not think that it would be worthwhile?

And perhaps it is my issue that is at the forefront but I do not believe that it diminishes the importance of having the discussion.

To answer your question for me personally, if someone says they are a man, then they are. If they call themselves "boi" I see them as long ago defined as a female who identifies as a masculine boyish energy. If they call themselves all of the above, then by God, they are all of the above.What if they don't list it? What if they don't identify specifically? Do you (I mean general you of everyone here at BFP) think "trans" first and then woman/man?

[adorable]

I am accepting of gender. Period. I see what another person needs and wants me to see. Online it may be very difficult. One thing that I love about this site is the preferred pronouns option on the left. It makes life much easier for me since I want to dismiss no one's insides. They are very delicate for most of us. How we look on the outside doesn't always match on the inside. It is true on so many different levels and in so many different ways.

It is not so hard for me to acknowledge who the real person inside of someone is. Someone who I care for very much is seen by other people as being his outsides. I said to him once that it must be very hard for him. What he said to me is that "it doesn't matter what they think, it matters what you think." Wanting to be seen the way we actually are, as that person inside, is a very human need. Most of us have fought with ourselves and against the world our whole lives.

As a community I think it's especially important for people to be validated for how they view themselves. Most people don't get that in the real world. In many ways most of us are invisible, it is only in the written word that we can be seen. For the first time we can be the reflection of how we feel inside without people judging our outsides. I don't see trans for that reason. Trans to me implies some sort of "movement towards". My experience with talking to people is that they are already there, they were born there regardless of appearance.

To be challenged for who we are is painful. When it happens, it's a level of disappointment that I find it difficult to put words to. The only thing I think that explains it is like a childhood rejection. The first time you realized that you were different and people KNEW you were different. Then they made it a point to ridicule you for that. It is a core level rejection that cuts deeper then most things.

[Jess]

Fair enough in Grant using trans in his definition (I did miss it when I read through the thread a few times). And I saw the apology (it took me a while to forge this thread so I think it's a timing thing) you posted after I finished this. I do apologize for not seeing that "trans" in the first post. I can definitely see how that could be confusing.

It's not meant to be an affront but rather a starting point for everyone. It is something that I've seen some men and women go through. I've talked with some who are really upset at being even slightly referenced as trans and I think it is something that is valid to discuss. Even for some trans individuals (myself included) we do this. We get wrapped in the idea that if you are changing the external then you must be trans. And that isn't always a valid way of looking at things.

I appreciate that you weren't trying to be disrespectful. And I recognize that not everyone has been part of the groups I have been, which is why I think it's worthwhile to discuss these things. We had those very discussions in those groups. Do you not think that it would be worthwhile?

And perhaps it is my issue that is at the forefront but I do not believe that it diminishes the importance of having the discussion.

What if they don't list it? What if they don't identify specifically? Do you (I mean general you of everyone here at BFP) think "trans" first and then woman/man?


Linus, thank you sincerely for taking the time to look over what transpired. I very much appreciate it.

I think it is an important topic and actually the above interaction only illustrates how much so.

For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

When I attempt to place myself in the shoes of the men who have transitioned I am awed, humbled, confused and often pained at what they may have had to endure to reach their decision to just "be".

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

[little man]

i think much of it depends on where you are and who you're with.

inside the queer community, there is much more discussion and thought put into identity, who we are, what we are than there is in the world at large. while i'm sure there are some folks in the world who do consciously consider self and who they are in a greater context...i have doubts that gender identity plays into that much, if at all. when i'm at work or the grocery store or at the zoo...my gender identity does not come into play for anyone else. obviously, it's a part of what goes into making me the type of man i am, but i don't see anyone mulling it over. for the general population, i'm a funny guy who is helpful or irritated or pleasant. while it is noted that i'm not overly ionterested in sports and that i seem to "understand" women a bit more than your average joe...my manhood is not questioned. i'm just a different sort of man. since my primary goal in life isn't looking for pussy to get up in, but to find someone who's a good match for me in other areas....i'm a really different sort of guy.

because people tend to see the worrld through their own filters, and scrutiny of gender idenity isn't on their list of things to think about, they ascribe to the world around them an ease in being whoever one is. it's in the narrower confines of social subgroups (queer/b-f/trans) that all this stuff comes into play. i wonder if the influence of knowing we're different, in the context of the broader world, comes into play here online...where we speak up about being misnamed and call people out on intent. i think that because this place matters, these people matter to us...it's important to say this stuff aloud. i have a difficult time believing that many folks, trans or otherwise, spend much of their offline time saying, "hey...i'm a boy or a boi or a masculine female bodied man".

it's wonderful that we have these discussions, that we're all able to come to a better understanding of ourselves and others in the world. unless there were some history of conflict between any two posters, i'd be hard pressed to believe that *anyone* is being malicious in their terminology or phrasing. we take our cues from one another in what we read.

and now, it's time for this guy to give his sister a ride to work and go pull some carpet.

[adorable]

i think much of it depends on where you are and who you're with.

inside the queer community, there is much more discussion and thought put into identity, who we are, what we are than there is in the world at large. while i'm sure there are some folks in the world who do consciously consider self and who they are in a greater context...i have doubts that gender identity plays into that much, if at all. when i'm at work or the grocery store or at the zoo...my gender identity does not come into play for anyone else. obviously, it's a part of what goes into making me the type of man i am, but i don't see anyone mulling it over. for the general population, i'm a funny guy who is helpful or irritated or pleasant. while it is noted that i'm not overly ionterested in sports and that i seem to "understand" women a bit more than your average joe...my manhood is not questioned. i'm just a different sort of man. since my primary goal in life isn't looking for pussy to get up in, but to find someone who's a good match for me in other areas....i'm a really different sort of guy.

because people tend to see the worrld through their own filters, and scrutiny of gender idenity isn't on their list of things to think about, they ascribe to the world around them an ease in being whoever one is. it's in the narrower confines of social subgroups (queer/b-f/trans) that all this stuff comes into play. i wonder if the influence of knowing we're different, in the context of the broader world, comes into play here online...where we speak up about being misnamed and call people out on intent. i think that because this place matters, these people matter to us...it's important to say this stuff aloud. i have a difficult time believing that many folks, trans or otherwise, spend much of their offline time saying, "hey...i'm a boy or a boi or a masculine female bodied man".

it's wonderful that we have these discussions, that we're all able to come to a better understanding of ourselves and others in the world. unless there were some history of conflict between any two posters, i'd be hard pressed to believe that *anyone* is being malicious in their terminology or phrasing. we take our cues from one another in what we read.

and now, it's time for this guy to give his sister a ride to work and go pull some carpet.

I disagree. I think that IF they're outsides matched their insides they would be identifying to the world they were a man. And not only is it something they dream about, fantasize about and hope for - it can be all consuming. It is very real for them. It is very frustrating and my impression is they do think about it all the time.

Within our "subgroup" as you call it the most frustrating thing is not being able to celebrate being a man. To do that can be seen as msyoginistic. The acceptance is limited in a "yeah, yeah ok you're a man don't throw it in our face" kind of way. Being a man is not what some people feel on the inside - so rather then accept that some people do - they are quick to dismiss the realness and excitement of another's core being.

What does happen at the grocery store, at the zoo, in the shower, waiting for the bus, applying for a job - is they are reminded constantly of how the world sees them which is not how they feel. I see that is a sad sort of hell.

(I disagree with your taking your experience for others - not your experience if that makes sense. I don't see that as the experience for many female bodied men.)

[SuperFemme]

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

Jess. Can I ask you something? I am a Femme married to a TransGuy. Should I leave my community now? Or should I only visit here single? Should I come to the Reunion alone? Because I am all Femme. My Beloved is Trans, and Queer and it really hurts (big time) to read the words you have written.

I guess if we operate from the very narrow view of the binary and the existence of only two genders, then you can make your point. Still, what a sad, sad thing to come here and read.

It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary.

Where does that leave me Jess?

[Jess]

(Not Moderating! Disagreeing and Discussing)

Jess -- I can tell from your post that you have given a lot of thought to this and it is still not quite resolved in your head. I don't think it is in mine, either, because it is not a path I walk. However, it is a path that many close to me are on. I know that some folks who transition move into the straight world completely by their choice. Others feel that *this* is their community. I feel that way too. I do not think you meant to be hurtful in your post at all, I am reading you as trying to figure this out like many of us are, but I can tell you that it does not feel good for me, as a woman who has many friends in this community that are or have transitioned to have their place here questioned. For me, if they love and respect Femmes and Butches, they belong here. I cannot imagine not having Theo, Billy, Turino, Linus, Chris, Cal, littleman, Dylan and several others not here.

I picked this piece out of your very long thoughtful post, most of which I agreed with or at least understood, but this bit above felt hurtful. Have you ever been excluded? I have, and it doesn't feel good.

--June

Actually, yes I have pretty much daily.

If I have hurt feelings in expressing my own questioning then I sincerely apologize.

[Bit]

I think it's important to remember that we each read through the lens of our own experience. What we have lived--our own experience and the experiences of those we love--is going to color what we read and how we respond.

For instance, Wil posted about being a transman who goes to the grocery store and notices that the people around him (mostly straight people, I bet) all seem to take it for granted that their outsides match their insides--so much for granted that they never even think it might not be so for everyone.

adorable read Wil's post about a transman going to the grocery store, but she talked about the transman's experience of being acutely aware that the outsides don't match the inside.

That's two different topics--one is "how others see transmen," and the other is "how transmen see themselves."

Jess posted about not seeing transmen in the community as butches anymore.

Adele read Jess's post and posted about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

Again, that's two different topics. One is "transmen are different from butches" and the other is "do transmen fit in this community?"

I think the reason threads like this so often blow up is that people very often think we're all talking about the same exact topic, and don't recognize the different topics as they come up; then we get confused and sometimes hurt and/or angry. It makes it hard to understand each other.

I think, in threads like this, it's more important than ever to remember that none of us are trying to hurt or be disrespectful of anyone. We just aren't always speaking about the exact same topic, yanno?

[BullDog]

Saying you believe that butch and female identities are female identities and wondering where man fits in is not the same thing as saying they shouldn't be welcome. I didn't read Jess' post as saying they shouldn't be welcome.

Very few (I can't think of any but there could be some) transitioned men identify as butch. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be welcome in a butch femme community if they want to be a part of it.

[SuperFemme]

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I'm trying to make sense of it all, just like Jess.

[Dylan]

1. For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

2. I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

3. I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

4. I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

5. I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.



I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

[Bit]

Bit? As for me having hurt feelings after reading that *males* don't belong here? I read it exactly as it was written. Please don't negate my feelings again, ok?

I didn't negate your feelings, Adele. I stated that you posted about being excluded from the community--and on reading your post again, this sentence, "It feels very Michigan Womans Fest to me in the sense of being incredibly exclusionary in an environment I believed was inclusionary." still says to me that you were posting about transmen and their partners being excluded from the community.

I don't know how you would read my interpreting that you were talking about being excluded from the community as anything other than supportive of your feelings.

It says nothing whatever about you (or your feelings) for me to say that I believe Jess was talking about transmen who have fully transitioned not being butches anymore; I've seldom run into any men who wanted to be referred to as butches once they finish transitioning, so I don't see his statement as disrespectful or exclusionary, especially since he says, "This does not exclude them from the LGBT community..."

If we disagree on what Jess meant by his post, that's fine, but disagreeing about the way to interpret someone else's post is not the same as negating your feelings.

[Kobi]

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

I am kind of understanding Jess here...I think.

We, as a society, like to give things names or labels. It might be a byproduct of advertising techniques or maybe just indicates we are too lazy to use extra words.

The non-hetero community in all it facets is a very complicated place, getting more and more complicated as new definitions are added. And the womens community has always seemed to welcome more and more variations cuz we like to be inclusive rather than exclusive it seems.

I, too, am confused as to how this works and struggling to find the words to use which wont offend someone. Then again, sometimes just "hello" can be offensive :)

The Butch-Femme community as far as I know from history was to celebrate the special connection between feminine female energy and masculine female energy into specific dynamic between women who wanted to be with other women.

In the broader arena, the Butch-Femme community is the logical place for non female identifying folks to be. The energy exchange and dynamics are already in place, accepted, and understood. Someone identifying as a non female would have a heck of a time in a general "lesbian" arena.

On the other hand, I personally, am offended when a non female uses the word Butch. Butch, to me, is a noun not an adjective.

Plus, I have fought for many years not to be seen as a woman who wants to be a male just because I am Butch. And, I worry that Butch as a distinct identity is being undermined and redefined to accomodate non females. And, the accomodation has me back at square one having to reiterate....no, I dont want to be a male.

This is a very complicated issue on many levels. Some trans folks can pass for males without a problem and blend into the general population. So can most femmes. It is the Butch who has to straddle several worlds and be subjected to much speculation and much misunderstanding.

We are more likely to understand the difficulties involved in being seen as something you are not. Hence, this aspect of the subculture is a bridge of sorts.

Yet, Butch-Femme, per se has historically been a subculture in the lesbian world. If it incorporates non females is it still lesbian? And are former lesbians now involved with non females lesbians or heteros?

Before anyone jumps all over me, like Jess, I am struggling to understand something and raising, hopefully, appropriate questions in an accepting arena.
One can respect something even if they dont understand it.

As a closing note, sometimes people make things too complex and become stuck. I like to think when this happens, the Power that is, finds ways to nudge us along onto a different but growth filled path.

[Bit]

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?


Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

[Kobi]

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?



Ok I have no idea what you just said but it looks important. Can you elaborate?

[adorable]

Linus, thank you sincerely for taking the time to look over what transpired. I very much appreciate it.

I think it is an important topic and actually the above interaction only illustrates how much so.

For myself having been a butch lesbian queer dyke my whole life who has questioned almost daily whether or not I was mis-assigned or am "trans" this has been a very hard issue to wrap my head around.

I have gone through every possible scenario in my head of what it would mean for me to transition and it makes my head seriously want to explode. One on hand, having been "me" and been a part of the dyke community all of my life ( saving early childhood), it would feel like I am no longer a part "of" the hugely dysfunctional but familiar "family" I have always known. For me, it is still difficult to understand where "trans" ends and "man" starts in regard to how I would view myself in the queer community.

I view the men I know who were born in the wrong body and transitioned to the "correct" one, very clearly as MEN. I don't even understand the use of "trans" in descriptor unless it is early stage transitioning OR in the more ethereal sense of "transcendent" , meaning they are biologically one but not seeking to physically alter. "Trans" in this latter sense, meaning androgynous.. or having both aspects or neither. Does that make sense?

When I attempt to place myself in the shoes of the men who have transitioned I am awed, humbled, confused and often pained at what they may have had to endure to reach their decision to just "be".

I think it is very difficult for some of us ( self included) to understand where in the b-f dynamic "men" fit. I think sometimes that is why so many of the "gender" arguments come about. For me, I have always defined b-f as butch and femme females. I guess I naively think that once someone transitions to male, they don't really fit "b-f", because.. well... they are a man... This does not exclude them from the LGBT community, but in my tiny little brain, it just doesn't fit butch-femme. It is a different dynamic. It is man-woman or man-man or what have you. Not many men need to be described as butch, I guess.

I don't know if any of that makes any sense, but please know I am attempting to have an authentic heartfelt discussion about this. I don't know how to make all of the choices or preferences make sense. I am just trying.

Thanks again, it IS indeed a very worthy topic.

For me. ME ME ME ME.

As a history major, (who did not concentrate in Women's Studies btw) - in fact there maybe people on here who actually lived it - so please let me know if my reading of the history is inadequate...

The 1940s and 1950s were about clearly defined gender roles. The two genders were male and female. It was in the late 1960s and 1970s that some in the women's movement decided that the butch femme dynamic was oppressive and saw Butch - Femme as attempting to mimic hetro life. As time moves forward, so do social norms, societal preferences and technology. All things that we are exposed to in different ways depending on where we live, who raises us and technological accessibility.

These are also those things that make this dynamic hard to define TODAY. In past decades it has clearly been defined, misunderstood, used for good and to seperate.

To me Male IDs, TGs and FTMS DO belong in the most traditional sense of Butch-Femme, in a way that I do not.

I do belong in the newer updated we are "everything" version of butch-femme.

When the Butch-Femme dynamic became popular during the 40s & 50s, I don't think it was analyzed like this - it was a much simpler time with far less technology. Women dressed up like men, held doors, went to work in factories and had their "wife" at home. So did almost every other 1950s household. It was a reflection of society then.

WE (the all inclusive WE) are the reflection of society now.

[Jess]

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan


Dylan, just so you know, I read and value what you shared here and do want to get back to this discussion with you ( and anyone else participating respectfully), but as it is a very intimate topic, I want to give myself more time to try to choose my words better.

I really do hate making anyone feel hurt or pissed because I really do feel it myself as well. That is so not what it is about for me and I will trust that you believe that.

Gonna go slap some paint and chair rails on the boys room and marinate over this all.

Thanks, Jess

[Dylan]

Hey Dylan, I read that paragraph as making a distinction between transsexual men--whom Jess sees as men--and transgendered-as-in-third-gender butches. Third gender butches don't usually transition, and yet we use the term "trans" for them as well as for guys who transition, because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Which is why I (personally) DO try to make an effort to distinguish btwn transgendered and transsexed (removing the sexual part all together, because most people tend to meld transsexual into sex and sexuality...which is archaic as far as I'm concerned)

I DO DO DO believe there is a HUGGGGGGEE difference btwn transgendered and transsexed which very very often get all lumped into one category making for an enormously confusing conversation.


Totally Agreed,
Dylan

[BullDog]

For me. ME ME ME ME.

As a history major, (who did not concentrate in Women's Studies btw) - in fact there maybe people on here who actually lived it - so please let me know if my reading of the history is inadequate...

The 1940s and 1950s were about clearly defined gender roles. The two genders were male and female. It was in the late 1960s and 1970s that some in the women's movement decided that the butch femme dynamic was oppressive and saw Butch - Femme as attempting to mimic hetro life. As time moves forward, so do social norms, societal preferences and technology. All things that we are exposed to in different ways depending on where we live, who raises us and technological accessibility.

These are also those things that make this dynamic hard to define TODAY. In past decades it has clearly been defined, misunderstood, used for good and to seperate.

To me Male IDs, TGs and FTMS DO belong in the most traditional sense of Butch-Femme, in a way that I do not.

I do belong in the newer updated we are "everything" version of butch-femme.

When the Butch-Femme dynamic became popular during the 40s & 50s, I don't think it was analyzed like this - it was a much simpler time with far less technology. Women dressed up like men, held doors, went to work in factories and had their "wife" at home. So did almost every other 1950s household. It was a reflection of society then.

WE (the all inclusive WE) are the reflection of society now.

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever) than the butch, with the butch staying at home because it was hard for them to find work. I don't believe butches back then saw themselves as men. Perhaps some did, but no from what I read it wasn't male and female as the two gender roles. I am a modern day butch who wears men's clothing. I am not a man.

[Dylan]

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

[adorable]

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever) than the butch, with the butch staying at home because it was hard for them to find work. I don't believe butches back then saw themselves as men. Perhaps some did, but no from what I read it wasn't male and female as the two gender roles. I am a modern day butch who wears men's clothing. I am not a man.

What I have read is that they worked at factories and other places where there was not a uniform requirement. And that femme's did work moreso in the 50s. I think that it was a gender role that butches did see themselves as - it did mimic hetro society in roles - in a way that we do not today.

Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s.

[BullDog]

What I have read is that they worked at factories and other places where there was not a uniform requirement. And that femme's did work moreso in the 50s. I think that it was a gender role that butches did see themselves as - it did mimic hetro society in roles - in a way that we do not today.

Today is a different perspective for me then the 40s and 50s.

Well you could always read Joan Nestle- a femme who was there during the 1950s- for a different perspective.

[adorable]

Well you could always read Joan Nestle- a femme who was there during the 1950s- for a different perspective.

And I will! It is hard to find a lot on it and it does facinate me. Thanks.

[apretty]

It was the femme who was much more likely to go to work at the factory (or wherever)

factories/prostitution and a good butch lover: vocations and love that could support a single mother both financially and psychologically; after 12 hours of hard labor in this society, a man's open arms would be beyond suspect.

just saying. ;)

[little man]

I disagree. I think that IF they're outsides matched their insides they would be identifying to the world they were a man. And not only is it something they dream about, fantasize about and hope for - it can be all consuming. It is very real for them. It is very frustrating and my impression is they do think about it all the time.

Within our "subgroup" as you call it the most frustrating thing is not being able to celebrate being a man. To do that can be seen as msyoginistic. The acceptance is limited in a "yeah, yeah ok you're a man don't throw it in our face" kind of way. Being a man is not what some people feel on the inside - so rather then accept that some people do - they are quick to dismiss the realness and excitement of another's core being.

What does happen at the grocery store, at the zoo, in the shower, waiting for the bus, applying for a job - is they are reminded constantly of how the world sees them which is not how they feel. I see that is a sad sort of hell.

(I disagree with your taking your experience for others - not your experience if that makes sense. I don't see that as the experience for many female bodied men.)

adorable, i'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with. is it that you think most people in the world (yes, that would be the larger, straight world) spend time considering gender presentation and the ramifications of being misaligned with one's body?

do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them?

i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store.

a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning.

i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today.

[Jett]

I realize you're not coming from a place of being intentionally hurtful. I'm numbering your paragraphs as just an easier way to discuss all the things you've brought up instead of having to break it up into separate quotes.

And while I completely realize your intention is not to be hurtful...I have to say, from my ME place, your words sting...a lot.

Paragraph 1: Your words sting a lot, but it's not just your words. I don't understand why you put bunny ears (quotes) around the word trans.

Paragraph 3. I don't understand the bunny ears around "correct" either. I'm also lost at "biologically one, but not seeking to physically alter". I also don't understand your definition of trans meaning androgynous. If you really see men as men...how are they androgynous or both or neither?

On another note, and this is probably going to sound 'lectury or 'lessony', but it's text and not speech. I don't mean it in a schooly type way. Transwomen and ciswomen share biological traits which transmen and cismen don't share. Same goes for transmen/cismen and transwomen/ciswomen. So, when one says, "biological man/woman", I get confused. Being trans isn't just a head trip. It's also a "biological" thing. There are lots of biological factors that transmen and cismen share (same with transwomen and ciswomen). There is a really good book I can't remember the name of right now that explains all of these biological similarities in great detail. When/If I remember the name of the book, I'll post it.

Lastly on paragraph 3 (and this is going to sound more prickish than intended, but again, it's text and not speech, and if we were having this conversation in person, it wouldn't sound prickish)...you don't get to decide how transfolk use the term 'trans'. Different transpeople use the term differently to mean different things. It's not up to you to decide how it's used. Personally, sometimes, I use it and sometimes I don't. My experiences differ greatly from other transpeople's experiences, and how and why and when I use 'trans' varies from person to person and day to day. Sometimes, it's easier to convey to less informed people, so I use the word trans. Sometimes, my use is dependent upon who's listening. Sometimes, it's dependent on my mood. Sometimes, the wind blows from the south, and I use the word trans as a self-descriptor. The hows/whys/whens of that are up to ME...no one else. If you or anyone else can't grasp that...then just LISTEN. I don't expect you or anyone else to magically 'know' things.

Paragraph 4. While you, personally, may define b-f as female-only...it's not. In fact, tons of gay men are part of the b-f dynamic. Butch is a word used by straight, cis people to define straight, cismen and even straight, ciswomen. It's NOT a term exclusive to queer females. It's just not. While YOUR particular experience with the b-f terms/community *might* be female-only...it's just NOT a female-only community.

Now, here's where I get a bit lost in your post. In paragraph 2 you state you've given Transdom a lot of thought, and you would feel no longer a part of a community you've known your entire life. I get that. Totally one hundred percent get that. I think probably every transguy who's been a part of this community/family has grappled with that.

Backstory: I have been labeled by OTHERS my entire life as 'Lez', 'He/She', 'Dyke', 'Lesbian', 'Female', 'Woman', etc. My Whole Life...literally from the second I slid outta the womb. I didn't pick these terms for myself...they were chosen FOR me.

I came out when I was 14. I went right into the lesbian community, because A) I had been labeled a lesbian, so I figured that's what was going on; and B) there was very little talk of trans-issues in those days. One might see the occasional transwoman who was labeled a 'drag queen' by everyone else, but I definitely NEVER saw any transguys.

That was over 25 years ago. I have been a part of the b-f community and the lesbian community for over 25 years. All of my friends have always been queer with a few exceptions. Straight venues have never been safe for me, so I have not really ever spent much time in straight arenas (sans workplaces, etc). I mean, I don't really even go to shopping malls, because it's just never been safe. I know all of the social cues and little inuendos of queer space. Put me in straight space, and I'm kind of lost. If I'm not lost, I simply refuse to partake. I have no idea how straight-space operates. Queer space, as you put it, is my "dysfunctional yet familiar family" also.

So, please tell me why I have to give that up? Why would anyone have to give that up? My entire life has been devoted to advancing queer (specifically lesbian) rights. I have always stood behind this community. While I have been socialized in many aspects as female, and I've been treated female by everyone around me, and I've definitely 'paid my dues' as an out queer for so many years, I have also been socialized QUEER. So, again, please tell me why I'm expected to then what? just forget about all of that and jump out of my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family' and into a world I've never known? Just because some people have a very LIMITED view of butch-femme? I'm supposed to forget all of that, because YOU view my relationship as 'straight'? Really? Because I don't view my relationship as straight, and neither does Mahhh Woman. And I don't view MYSELF as straight. Mahhh Woman doesn't view herself as straight, and she never has...even when she was married to a cisman.

And here's where I get a little pissy (and again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand...but I'm entitled to my pissiness). I have lived my ENTIRE life having someone ELSE determine my place in the world...whether that place was 'female', or 'woman', or 'lesbian', or 'he/she', or <insert birthname here>, or 'daughter', or 'dyke', or whatnot. YOU do NOT get to determine where I belong...how queer I am...whether I'm butch...whether I'm straight...whether I should give up my 'dysfunctional yet familiar family'. I (me, me, me) determine that. NOT you. This particular site is a QUEER site. I'm queer. I'm here. Get used to it. Queer includes trans. Some butches are cismen. Some butches are transmen. Some butches are just men. Some butches are gay men. Some butches are straight cismen. Some butches are straight transmen. Some butches are nelly-ass-flaming third gendered butches. Some butches are male-ID'd. Some butches are ciswomen. Some butches are transwomen. Some femmes are cismen. Some femmes are transmen. Some butches are queer ciswomen. Some butches are straight ciswomen. Some femmes are queer, het, ciswomen. The list is endless.

If you view butch-femme as simply 'lesbian, cisfemale-only', you're not only dissing transfolks, you're also dissing all of those folks who don't ID as either lesbian, cis, male, female, man, queer, or woman...and that's A LOT of people. Some people view their sex and/or gender as simply 'Butch' or 'Femme' with no other explanations.

Sex and sexuality are not the same thing. My sex has nothing to do with my gender either. My sex has nothing to do with a myriad of aspects of my life.

This ain't your grandmother's butch-femme community.

Paragraph 5. I really wish people would get over this "choices" and "preferences" idea. People's sex/genders/sexualities are NOT NOT NOT 'choices and preferences'. It's funny if I were to start dissing Mahhh Woman's life as 'woman' or 'female' as something she 'chooses' or 'prefers', she'd be pretty upset with me. My mother didn't 'choose' her sex any more than I 'chose' my sex. You didn't 'choose' or 'prefer' to be queer anymore than I did. It's diminishing to call your 'life' a preference or choice. I'm sure you get a little riled up when the fundies start calling being queer 'a choice'.

And once again, I completely realize you're coming from a place of trying to understand, and you're not intentionally trying to hurt/oppress anyone. I get that.


Dylan

Butch is a word with many meanings, many incarnations. But I vehemently disagee that in the context of BFP.com (or this conversation) a straight natal male who is butch appearing is connected to this community. Nor do I see a bunch of gay (born) male butch - femme men wanting to hang around here. And that butch straight cis-gendered butch looking women down the street might take offense to being lumped in with our butch femme dynamic.

It's seems really distasteful to me to try to stretch butch out beyond recognition, downgrade butch identity here to having such generic blahzay definition.

You know, I don't know if you identify as butch anymore, nor do I care, but I do... and it the context of this community it has meaning, very specific history and we have more connection to each other and more value in all of that than to bust it to almost nothing.

Just think that's especially crazy in a thread that's about not defining others and respecting identities.

*not some straight butch looking lady down the street*
Metropolis

[BullDog]

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

[adorable]

adorable, i'm not sure what it is you're disagreeing with. is it that you think most people in the world (yes, that would be the larger, straight world) spend time considering gender presentation and the ramifications of being misaligned with one's body?

do you disagree that because i look like a man, i'm assumed to be one...complete with shared socialization and experiences as other bio-men understand them?

i am 7 years or so into transition. i've been on T that long. i am still pre-op, so still female bodied. are you assuming that i've forgotten the disparity between my physicality and my interior life? the shower is a very different scenario for me than going to work or the grocery store.

a point that i didn't make (and perhaps should have been clearer on) is that people are generally lazy in their identification of others. if it looks like a man, then it must be one. before i started T, i passed part of the time as male. once the secondary sex traits kicked in, it was way more often than that. finally, once i picked up on social cues and what i was "expected" to do, it got to be full time. i do understand the frustration of feeling one way and looking another. that's why i undertook the great mindfuck that is transitioning.

i don't expect that everyone's experience is the same. i think that was an assumption on your part. i have been in the pre-transition position, the beginning of transition position, and now in the midst of it. please don't assume that i've forgotten any step of this long process...it is indelibly etched upon my soul. i remember the places and the people i've been before today.


Yes, I read you wrong. I don't disagree. Thank you for clarifying - although when I went back and read your post realized that I had misread it and it was clear how it was written. :)

[Dylan]

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

[BullDog]

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

[Queerasfck]

What happens to masculine id'd butches? Those that transition not to male, but out of female and into another gender all together.


Thanks for bringing this up it's a good point. Sometimes in these gender discussions I feel like I have to pick a side to fit in all the way on the imaginary gender scale some have made.

[betenoire]

So, back to Linus' question:

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

I'm gonna answer your question with another question. Because I tend to do that.

How do you feel about women dating trans(sexual) males but not "biological" (EWWW, I hate typing biomale! Let's say non-trans instead, okay?) males?

I mean, if you're gonna date FTMs but not date, um, Ms...doesn't that on some level indicate that you don't really fully 100% recognize your man's real sex? Or is it the fact that FTMs were at least socialised as Women earlier in life that makes it acceptable to partner with them and not non-trans guys?

(Again with the reiterating that I am talking about transsexual men here, not transgendered.)

[Jess]

OK, having had some time for the gazillion thoughts regarding this subject to ramble around my head, I will try to make myself more clear.

Regarding a persons personal pronoun, I will call them whatever I see them use referring to themselves and usually avoid it altogether if I am unsure. The topic was brought up regarding a specific incident to which I feel I answered to quite clearly, as I was confused by the several choices of pronouns or descriptors the person used referring to himself. Again, I apologize if he took it in any dismissive way.

Regarding the use of the term trans, I used the quotes, because I see "TRANS" used referring to several different things and am never quite sure which it is when someone just says trans. Is it transsexual, transgendered, trans-spirited? I try not to assume, but obviously I am not the only one who gets confused by this catch all word.

Regarding MY use of the word Butch, to my knowledge "butch" was originally one of those derogatory words given to label masculine women. Mostly it was a source of hate and disparity, and like the word "fag" or "queer", butch women reclaimed it as a source of pride and power. The word itself goes back to before "lesbians" claimed it. Further, straight women were often nicknamed "Butch" and quite frequently in a loving manner by their male counterparts who were not threatened in their own sense of masculinity. I will illustrate with photos from a grave across the street from my house. This couple was married in 1956 and Pappy is still living.

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1780

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=1781

As to who has a place in this community, I think we all do. My statement about MY not viewing men as "butch" is based on my experience with transsexual/ FTM's who do not identify as "butch". Again, I apologize if it was read to mean I think FTM's don't have a place here. If someone wants to call themselves a butch man, who am I to say differently?

Like Wil stated earlier, I think way too often these conversations generally only exist here because in the outside/ real world, we are all way too busy dealing with life on life's terms. The hetero world ( in general) makes and passes judgement on us based on appearances or characteristics and usually I am way too busy trying to not get killed or attacked to give a fuck about defining things like "trans" or "butch" or "pronoun preference".

Three days ago in a small convenience store we stopped at while trying to help someone move, a group of three people various ages and sexes were discussing me quite audibly. The store being very small and crowded, their words quite loud and hurtful, I smiled back in their faces and simply said "ya know, it might be nicer if you at least waited until you got outside before you start gossiping about someone who is in front of you". Now, I could have said nothing or I could have turned around and punched someone or I could have melted in fear or any number of responses. As a Butch woman I get this kind of shit almost every time I go into public and certainly any time I have to take a piss.

When trying to figure out my own place I KNOW it would be easier for me in dealing with the world at large if I transitioned... had a beard.. wasn't a source of constant ogling and for some reason a threat to straight folks who just don't get it. I, however, am not willing at this point in my life to do that. I love my wife. She is a dyke. She fell in love with ME, all of me, both my feminine and masculine aspects and presentations.

I try to call people what they wish to be called. If I read their words and descriptors and there are several to choose from, I try to reference ALL of them so I don't screw it up and ya know, sometimes I still might and will correct it as soon as it is pointed out to me. I have been living with being called he or she for so friggen long I no longer really give a shit what someone calls me. Note my personal pronoun choice. I know it is hard for some people to see me ( all live and in person) and try to guess what I am, so why should I get upset with them? To me, the meat of what a person shares with me is far more important that what gender it came from.

My struggle as a queer woman is still very based in the politics of gaining equal rights. If our brothers and sisters in the LGBT community can stop fighting with each other, then perhaps we can channel that energy into the real struggle. Perhaps, we could stop focusing so much on the minutiae of "words" and focus on the reality of "US". Perhaps we can realize our allies instead of being so quick to make enemies within our ranks.

Dylan, I am hoping this might help clarify some of where I am coming from. I may owe you a more personal response and please let me know if I do. The whole subject is so profound on so many levels both personally and as a member of this community that I am having a hard time dissecting it all.

Edited to add: If the pictures I tried to post don't show up, they are in my gallery and I am a technical idiot. Sorry.

[Dylan]

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

Bulldog, I'm not denying anything

I'm merely stating that b-f culture was not then, nor is it now a 'woman only turf'.

There were many many transpeople involved in butch femme history who also took beatings for being who they were too

I'm also not denying that the one article you provided spoke about butch women. I read the article. Yes, it centered on butch femme folks who id'd as woman.

Nor, am I denying that Nestle likes to focus on CIS women's history as applied to butch femme history

That doesn't mean trans people were not part of the butch-femme history/community/activism/etc

It's only a *(cis)woman's* history if One chooses to focus their attention on *(cis)women*


Dylan

[Sachita]

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

[betenoire]

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

[Jess]

Thank you Jess for your thought provoking words.

I will use you as an example. I always saw you as he. It wasnt your title or anything else just the energy I picked up on. Thats my thing. I'll never forget the day i was talking to someone we both know, Matt, and he said your "girl" name and referred to you as she. I didnt correct him but I admit it took me back and jarred me a little. I don't even now why it did as much as it did.

I then remember another person we both know that gave me shit when I referred to you as He. She corrected me and said, "I am sure Jess is transgender" of course I got shit over that.

I respect anyone's ID, of course, BUT I feel what I feel and if I sense that energy then I roll with it. If THEY correct me, have a problem with it then I correct it to make them more comfortable but i still feel what I feel.

In my perception, this here and now, gender is not an issue but a "feeling" I have. I go with that and like I said, if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on. Again this is my thing. Lady Snow once made reference to her masculine energy and I can relate because i have this too but I'll be damn anyone call me he or boi or anything else. It's a very complicated matter and when it's all said and done it really is an individual process. How I am with you might be different then how I am with someone else. One might see She and I might see He. Honestly, IMO it really doesnt matter unless someone is feeling uncomfortable with it.

Thanks for the honest response. Like I said, I get "he" and/or "she" everyday and usually it just rolls off.

One poor little older lady was calling me sir at the walmart pharmacy recently and I guess caught a profile of a tit and then fell all over herslef trying to apologize and correct herself. I was like, "ma'am, it is REALLY ok, no big deal". I actually felt sad that she was so dumbfounded. So sincerely upset with her "mistake" and it pained me to see her struggle so with it.

Thanks again. (f)

[apretty]

There are those that claim "he" and I feel "she" and it's not even about how they look but the vibes I pick up on.

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

[Kobi]

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

Having read and reread Sachita's post several times, it seems to me the totality of what was said is not being acknowledged. Rather a few concepts are being taken out of context.

I did not see her say anywhere that she would be disrespectful and deny someone else's identity. I saw her say she has an internal process....we all do....and maybe what she perceives in that process is not what is being stated by another.

We all get vibes about people. Sometimes we are correct, sometimes not. But to say one cannot have an internal process or a feeling about something is to deny their right to be human.

No one is "choosing" anothers gender or preferred pronoun. Sometimes you dont know and an automatic process is to use what you feel. Seems reasonable to me. Then the other person can state a preference in response. No harm, no foul.

Gawd, if I have to police everything that I think or feel or intuit cuz someone else takes issue with a tiny aspect of MY process, I'd be a freakin basketcase. We wont need to worry about the gender police but we'd have a real problem with the thought police.

[apretty]

hey Kobi--

i'm in no way wanting to control thoughts.

i do question the validity in *anyone* putting in their 2 cents on how another person identifies.

i don't think a 'vibe' or 'feeling' ought to be a factor in 'gender-ing' another person.

and as the 'vibe-theory' was presented, i find myself with a lot of questions (and yes, i did read Sachita's entire post).

i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'.

identity is not usually up for debate, despite vibe or attraction--and forming a 'conclusion' on another's identity skates really close to a kind of thing that sometimes happens where a person wishes to redefine a person for their own comfort level.
(and Sachita as much says this, "if I'm wrong, someone disputes then I change the words but in my heart I never change. I see it how I feel it.")

the thing is, it doesn't matter to me if Sachita (or anyone else) keeps that kind of gender-ing an *internal* process--it's still creates the dynamic where a totally and completely other person 'reacts' to an identity as if it's optional and debatable, deniable. again, this is why i used the example of he-ing Sachita if i were to suddenly decide that she's 'a man'.

lastly, i didn't go inside of Sachita's head and steal her private thoughts--they're posted right here for all to read. and while i don't care for thought policing--i don't think that applies to a person publicly describing her process of "feeling" -gender, and utilizing that "feeling" as a barometer for which *she* determines another's gender.

[Kobi]

Hey apretty,

I think I am hearing what you are saying. Theoretically, it is plausible that if one says they are thus and so, we should just take it as they know best....end of process.

I just dont think people, in reality work that way. We were given senses and intuition and gut feelings to help us navigate our way in life. It is a human thing to look at something, anything, and give it our own spin. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. We might not verbalize the process but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

You say identity is not up for debate. [i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'].

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

My point is the principle. I dont believe anyone has the right to question my internal or anyones internal process. It would be like asking me to deny my experiences, my knowledge, my perceptions, my being because I might not come to the same conclusion as someone else.

That is the thought police to me. That is telling me I do not have a right to my opinion, in spite of what is being said to me, based on my own perceptions.

[SuperFemme]

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.


I am going to answer this even though you didn't ask *me*.

If I met a Lesbian who was married to a man, sleeping with him...I would totally take her at face value. Because to *me* who a person is sleeping with does not define who they are. I am married to a transguy and I am not straight, so I hope nobody tries to take away my Femme.

I don't think that there is such a thing as "thought police" either. That would require giving away ones power. Just because I see things differently than the next person doesn't mean that I am trying to make them carbon copy me.

[Kobi]

I am going to answer this even though you didn't ask *me*.

If I met a Lesbian who was married to a man, sleeping with him...I would totally take her at face value. Because to *me* who a person is sleeping with does not define who they are. I am married to a transguy and I am not straight, so I hope nobody tries to take away my Femme.

I don't think that there is such a thing as "thought police" either. That would require giving away ones power. Just because I see things differently than the next person doesn't mean that I am trying to make them carbon copy me.

Super,

Thanks for your input.

Im still thinking if someone tells me an animal is a dog but it meows and purrs, I might be thinking that there dog sure seems like a cat to me.

:wallbreak:

[SuperFemme]

Super,

Thanks for your input.

Im still thinking if someone tells me an animal is a dog but it meows and purrs, I might be thinking that there dog sure seems like a cat to me.

:wallbreak:

I have a dog named Kitty. If that helps?

[Kobi]

I have a dog named Kitty. If that helps?

LOL.

Remind me to call YOU when my cat starts barking. :)

[Dylan]

Hey apretty,

I think I am hearing what you are saying. Theoretically, it is plausible that if one says they are thus and so, we should just take it as they know best....end of process.

I just dont think people, in reality work that way. We were given senses and intuition and gut feelings to help us navigate our way in life. It is a human thing to look at something, anything, and give it our own spin. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. We might not verbalize the process but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

You say identity is not up for debate. [i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'].

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

My point is the principle. I dont believe anyone has the right to question my internal or anyones internal process. It would be like asking me to deny my experiences, my knowledge, my perceptions, my being because I might not come to the same conclusion as someone else.

That is the thought police to me. That is telling me I do not have a right to my opinion, in spite of what is being said to me, based on my own perceptions.



So, then, if I say, "You're not really a butch, and I can clearly see that by the fact that you use blue font and you use female pronouns" that's ok with you?


Dylan

P.S. I've dated and slept with that lesbian you speak of...and her husband

[betenoire]

There's a world of difference between knowing the difference between a dog and a cat and having a secret grin and thinking "oh, I know otherwise" when someone tells you what their gender is.

[Sachita]

Wait, so a person's gender and pronoun isn't so much about how THEY feel about their own gender and which pronoun they want used...but about how YOU feel about the gender/pronoun you would like to assign that person? And even if they correct you you will still think of them how you want to think of them but figure it's good enough that you try to use the pronoun they want?

Wow.

I can't change how I feel about something but I do respect someone's ID, for sure. It really isnt about gender for me as it is essence. It's probably complicated for me to fully describe. Let me think about the words more.

[Sachita]

and what if your 'vibes' are dead wrong--you choose someone else's GENDER based on some *feeling*?

what if i feel like you're a man--should i start he'ing you and 'go with it'?

do you see how this isn't at all your choice to make--how this is all contained within a person--no matter if you never came across someone and 'vibed' their gender/pronoun?

well first of all I never look at a person and just assume who they are. I'm likely to watch and study and yes my vibes have been wrong. I'm human.

[adorable]

Hey apretty,

I think I am hearing what you are saying. Theoretically, it is plausible that if one says they are thus and so, we should just take it as they know best....end of process.

I just dont think people, in reality work that way. We were given senses and intuition and gut feelings to help us navigate our way in life. It is a human thing to look at something, anything, and give it our own spin. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we dont. We might not verbalize the process but it doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

You say identity is not up for debate. [i don't understand the process of going from learning about someone's identity and then doing a little 'remodeling' of that (however internal the process), and ending up at some 'conclusion'].

Ok so explain this to me. If you meet a woman who says she is a lesbian but she is married to a male, living with him, and still sleeping with him, do you not have an internal process that says....ok you can call yourself whatever you want but I have some serious reservations about this and it doesnt say lesbian to me.

My point is the principle. I dont believe anyone has the right to question my internal or anyones internal process. It would be like asking me to deny my experiences, my knowledge, my perceptions, my being because I might not come to the same conclusion as someone else.

That is the thought police to me. That is telling me I do not have a right to my opinion, in spite of what is being said to me, based on my own perceptions.



What I think is "awww that sucks" because I know what it's like to live a lie.

[apretty]

this just keeps getting better. not really.

[Bit]

this just keeps getting better. not really.

That is, I think, because it's completely derailed from Linus' original topic, which was about transmen and whether we ever stop calling them "trans" and just call them men.

Which is why I (personally) DO try to make an effort to distinguish btwn transgendered and transsexed (removing the sexual part all together, because most people tend to meld transsexual into sex and sexuality...which is archaic as far as I'm concerned)

Thank you for the new word! I'll do my best to use it from now on. You're right, having the word "sexual" in there draws attention in the wrong way--just as attention is drawn in the wrong way by the word "homosexual." We've probably all seen people get totally hung up on the "sexual" part of "homosexual" and try to reduce us all to nothing more than our sex partners. I guess it's probably the same kind of dynamic in both instances. Maybe that's one reason so many people think it's okay to demand info about a transexxed person's genitalia, because of the word "sexual" in "transsexual." *sheesh, sometimes it seems like the world is populated by three-year-olds when otherwise-adults get so obsessed with other people's body parts*

....because there's so much overlap between the two terms "transgendered" and "transsexual" in the wider transsexual community. To me, that's a very frustrating ambiguity in the language. It seems to trip up all kinds of people, yanno?

Ok I have no idea what you just said but it looks important. Can you elaborate?

Kobi, what I meant was, there's this word Transgendered that many people use an umbrella term for all those who don't fit the gender binary; when used in this way and applied to the word Butch, it means a Butch who might otherwise be described as third-gendered, other-gendered, gender-queer, male-identified, or any number of other ways. What these different descriptions all have in common is that they are about female-bodied Butches who do not legally transition because they are not men.

The confusion arises because the wider Transsexed community uses the word Transgendered as a synonym for Transexxed (Transsexual), makes no distinction between the two terms, and doesn't always recognize the usage of Transgendered to mean "transgressing gender binaries."

What's been happening because of that, is that people in our community now mean different things when they use the term transgendered--it just causes lots of confusion, especially when Transsexed men use the word transgendered about themselves. Everyone doesn't know what they mean, because of the other definition of transgendered that is about female-bodied Butches, yanno?

What causes MORE confusion is that so many of us abbreviate and just say "trans" instead of specifying one or the other, transgendered or transsexed. I'm guilty of that myself, although I am consistent and only say "trans" when I mean "transsexed."

Of course, when someone says "Transman" or "Transwoman" they are referring to transsexed individuals. I don't think there's any confusion about that use of "trans."

Does that help?

[SuperFemme]

and then there is heterosexual.

all i can think about are straight people doing the nasty. :poc-cool:

[little man]

and then there is heterosexual.

all i can think about are straight people doing the nasty. :poc-cool:

i think about them dancing together in bars. it just doesn't look right.

[Bit]

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as always trans something," Linus. Do you mean, do we always see a transsexed individual as transsexed even after they finish gender reassignment and are living wholly as themselves?

Or do you mean, do we always categorize people as transsexed if we find out their outsides don't match their insides?

I can answer your last question easily--yes, I view Transmen as men and Transwomen as women. It's especially easy for me to see the man in a Transman, even before transition, and there pretty much isn't anything that makes me change how I see him unless he tells me himself that he made a mistake and isn't a man after all. That's only happened once that I know of.

[Linus]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as always trans something," Linus. Do you mean, do we always see a transsexed individual as transsexed even after they finish gender reassignment and are living wholly as themselves?

Or do you mean, do we always categorize people as transsexed if we find out their outsides don't match their insides?

I can answer your last question easily--yes, I view Transmen as men and Transwomen as women. It's especially easy for me to see the man in a Transman, even before transition, and there pretty much isn't anything that makes me change how I see him unless he tells me himself that he made a mistake and isn't a man after all. That's only happened once that I know of.


It's the idea that we always categorize "transsexed" (I'm a little icky about this as it feels like we're transgressing on intersexed individuals -- ah, English. Such a fun language) individuals as always "trans" man or "trans" woman.

Some female bodied, male-identified do not identify with the "trans" idea, whether before, during or after medical treatment or even without. They see themselves as male only. No trans anything.

The thought that started this was whether the LGBTQ community assumes that someone like me has to be trans (I do identify as trans but I'm experience as an example rather than using someone else).

Does that clarify?

[little man]

It's the idea that we always categorize "transsexed" (I'm a little icky about this as it feels like we're transgressing on intersexed individuals -- ah, English. Such a fun language) individuals as always "trans" man or "trans" woman.

Some female bodied, male-identified do not identify with the "trans" idea, whether before, during or after medical treatment or even without. They see themselves as male only. No trans anything.

The thought that started this was whether the LGBTQ community assumes that someone like me has to be trans (I do identify as trans but I'm experience as an example rather than using someone else).

Does that clarify?

could you elaborate on "someone like me"?

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

[Linus]

could you elaborate on "someone like me"?

Me, as someone who was assigned female at birth but is male.

also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

[apretty]

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

[Jess]

Me, as someone who was assigned female at birth but is male.



No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.


I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

[Martina]

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

[little man]

trans: i always associate the term "trans" as a kind of broad, ending up in some place other than where you originated.

prior, and maybe still sometimes when i forget that it's just not my business, i was confused by women who trans-itioned from F to be in a state of trans, FTM but not ...Male?.

anyway, i'm probably off topic again.

kinda like transportation? moving from point a to point b?

i think, for me, this might just well be the case...that the 'trans' aspect is the place(s) i am until i arrive. i'm just not sure there is an actual arrival point. but, that would be my interior life. life in the world? i figure being taken at face value as a man means i've arrived. no one who sees me face to face calls me ma'am. could be the mustache, could be the bald spot. or, it could be that my overall presentation is what they expect to see from a man.

side note: i view male and man as two distinctly different things.

[little man]

I have always wondered about this as well. Please understand that I ask questions about things I don't understand and appreciate when folks are able or willing to help explain it. I do try to gather info from different sources, as everyone's experience is not the same.

As the years have passed and so many more folks are able now to transition more easily ( or are choosing to do so) than in years past, I have wondered at what point do those who have transitioned ( or became what they were from birth) stop using the "trans"itional descriptor and just use man or woman.

For me, it is much more confusing to use the "trans" sexxed/gender than to not, as I can often times not tell when the person wishes it as part of their nomenclature. Much easier to say "man" "woman", "other" ya know?

I never know for example, when it is that they are trying to remain honoring their past female experience ( in the case of FTM's) or if like Wil was asking, if it is still being used to remain a part of the queer community ( not that it needs validation). I don't know, so I ask. I think anyone who feels a part of the queer community probably is, coz like my Dad told me "it's a hard path you are choosing" and I don't see many heterosexual folks chomping at the bit to have no rights and be the object of social ostracism.

I do very much thank everyone for touching on this subject.

i've never been big on "joining" or "belonging". i kinda meander along and look for spaces where i'm either welcome or fit in to some degree. mostly, i'm a loner. that being said....

i've spent most of my adult life in the company of queers...outside work, of course. between the straight world and the queer world...i fit with queers best. these days, i'm not sure i actually fit in either place. at this point in time, 'trans' gives me some credibility (if you will) in the queer world. it at least allows me a guest pass if not full membership.

i try to honor my past by keeping in mind the trials and tribulations that went along with not just *being* female but being perceived as female. and butch on top of that. i never really appreciated how difficult it is to be butch in the world until i began transition. it's a hard life. and a rewarding one.

[little man]

It seems like a fair number of people who have transitioned try not to make that part of their daily existence, much less include it as an ID they share. Am i understanding the question correctly?

As a queer person, i do not need to understand anybody as trans if that is not how they ID. If they ID as a straight man or woman -- no queer ID, no trans ID -- i would not expect them to be very active in the lgtbq community.

Is that the question?

Re the old question of whether a lesbian who fucks men is a lesbian, that has been argued since i was a sprout and i am OLD. Yes, IMO, she is. She's just fucking men. i genuinely hope she's having a great time.

i think, in some cases, identifying as trans can be a cliff note kind of deal for those folks we tell about our trans status.

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

[Bit]

Does that clarify?

LOL, no it did not--but your further posts did, so no worries.


also, are you asking whether to be a part of the lgbtq community, one would have to identify as trans forever and a day, or would dropping the trans descriptor bar you from membership?

I have seen this possibility, just watching how the community has reacted to people who come in stating they are men. The reaction has been hostile every time that I have seen it. On the other hand, quite often those who introduce themselves as Transmen have been welcomed.


No. I'm not thinking of forever. I'm thinking of starting from the beginning. Of never having trans as part of their identity.

Ah. I've run into several guys (it's sooo much easier just to say guys! Such a relief to stop trying to figure out which word to use) who have insisted that they were never butch, that they were simply men from the beginning. Is that what you mean? Except they did include trans as part of their identity, but maybe they felt they had to in order to fit in the community... I know that over the years all different sorts of words got used to avoid the whole "Transman" label, so maybe that's related?

i don't tend to look at being FTM as the primary focus of my life. it is circumstance and happenstance. i am so much more than the sum of my body parts and how they're arranged...as we all are. i have long suspected that queers make being queer the primary part of their identity because it is the thing that sets them (us) apart from the majority of the world. i have done that myself, as a means to fortify myself against the shame the rest of the world has laid on me for being different. over the years, i've come to realize that i have more to offer the world than just my queerness. this probably makes less sense written than it does in my head.

Damn, Wil, nothing could make more sense! I love this, and I think it is so true!! I also have done that, well heck--Gay Pride--I think LOTS of us have done that, fortified ourselves against shame that way!

I also have learned that I have more to offer than my queerness, but I find that it remains a strong part of my identity--still, over the years, it has moved back a little and now shares the primary identity space with my being pagan... and lately being a gardener is inching into the space, too; I am my own coalition government, lol.... well, that's quite a digression *blush* anyhow, I really loved your post.

[AtLast]

I do know 3 FtM's that are from way back (born in the late 1940's) that did not remain tied to the queer or lesbian community at all. As soon as all 3 were viewed as men publically, they lived as men, period. All 3 are straight and married to straight women. One of their wives had a lesbian relationship before, but not the other two.

It has been very interesting to come to the B-F community as a late-bloomer and experience all of the differing identifications here. Not even close to what I experienced before with this 3 men. I often wonder about generational differences as well as the role of the b-f dynamic about these differences.

[SassyLeo]

I would like to add that this whole monitoring of who is/who isn't 'butch'/'femme' whatnot (i.e. butch-femme is a woman-only club) leads to the monitoring of 'who is/who isn't butch/femme ENOUGH' which drives all of us crazy.

Once we start saying, "Well, SoAndSo isn't *reallllllly* butch/femme, because A, B, C" that leads to "SoAndSo isn't butch/femme *enough*, because of A, B, C"

It leads to hierarchies of butch/femme and definitions of butch/femme by OTHERS instead of individual flavors of butch/femme.

I Hope That Makes As Much Sense Outside Of My Head As It Does Inside My Head,
Dylan

This needed to be seen again.

ALSO... To me, this is what it feels like:

I tell someone my name is Jenny and they call me Jennifer, and not just once, but continue to...I realize Jenny is often short for Jennifer, but if I have not told you to call me Jennifer, why would you assume it is OK? (my birth name is JENNY, for the record)

What happened to listening to what someone defines themself as and honor it? What happened to taking someone's preferred label at face value? What happened to respecting this, which is to address and or greet me as I have asked?

If you tell me you are a trans identified man (he/him) and your name is Mike, then I will say..."that guy Mike, he is cool!"

[Greyson]

Somehow I missed this thread. Most of you know, I identify as a Transmasculine Butch and Transman. I do not identify as FTM. What I see much of the time is the binary being held as the only option. I honestly feel that I am a combination of masculine and feminine. My preference is to be referred to as "he" and I do not think I was born into the wrong body. I think I was born into the body that was correct for me at the time. I have altered my body to align with who I see myself to be. Will I ever have bottom surgery? Most likely not.

Each person gets to make their choices when it comes to their own body. I will respect their choice and address them as whatever their preference is. For myself I do not see myself having some end point in my "transition." IMO, all of life is about continuing, growing and transformation. (This emcompasses more than only the physical attributes.)

[EnderD_503]

I think this is a great topic because many people don't really understand how someone could consider themselves the opposite of the biological sex they were assigned at birth while not considering themselves trans-anything. Not FtM/MtF, not Transman/Transwoman, not transsexual, not transgender etc. I noticed a lot of the same confusion in the FtM vs. Male Id'd Butch thread, I think it was.

To answer Linus' question, no I definitely don't consider all those who were assigned the wrong biological sex at birth always trans-something. Why would they need to be? It's all highly individual, since there are many ways someone assigned the wrong biological sex can identify and various courses of action that can be taken to make one feel more at peace with one's body. Also, whichever course a person takes, does not make them any less/more of something than anyone else, imo. Some may consider themselves transmen/women but not male or female, while others consider themselves third gender, something else entirely, a mixture of the two or certain aspects of the two, others consider themselves strictly male/female but not trans, some retain/take on butch/femme or any other label they feel suits them.

I would consider a person the gender/sex they've expressed themselves as, not the one I think they are by my own definition. Why should I create somebody elses label? I think the only reason a person would do so would be due to their own inhibitions regarding gender/sex, and generally being uncomfortable with certain gender expressions. Personally, I consider myself both male and butch, still a part of the b/f dynamic and not trans or female (distinguishing biological and neurological) or anything else, and would extend the same courtesy toward others as I would like to receive myself. I think I would be pretty hypocritical if I did otherwise, and I think doing so polices gender.

I also don't understand the idea that somehow if someone who was born one biological sex and considers/understands themselves to be of the opposite sex, they should no longer be a part of the b/f dynamic or lgbt community. We, of all people, should understand the variety found in human gender expression. Male, butch, trans, femme, female etc. are not mutually exclusive.