Spirituality and Orientation/Gender [Archive]

Nat

05-21-2010, 06:02 AM

For me:

Reincarnation -

I've thought before perhaps I was a guy in my last life, or if maybe a couple reincarnated into me.

Jungian stuff -

I have wondered a bit if my experience with my gender is due to some anima/animus stuff from Jungian theory.

From Wikipedia

The anima and animus are described by Jung as elements of his theory of the collective unconscious, a domain of the unconscious that transcends the personal psyche. In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.

If the anima/animus does exist, I don't know how it works in the queer world. It's a bit frustrating to read him (for me) because his ideas about male and female, masculinity and femininity are outdated and I don't agree with them, but I'm still intrigued by the idea of an internal archetype of this sort. Is that what I'm sensing when I talk about the guy inside of me? Is he just my animus?

Other stuff -

Since I began a Goddess-centered (Pagan) spiritual path, I have found a lot more peace. This world can be a harsh one, and it helps me balance out, as does meditation.

Also, I just have the feeling that I was dealt the card of this life, and it's something I should embrace as fully as possible and do the most with it I can. That may not sound necessarily spiritual, but it's from a spiritual place.

Passionaria

05-21-2010, 08:15 AM

If the anima/animus does exist, I don't know how it works in the queer world. It's a bit frustrating to read him (for me) because his ideas about male and female, masculinity and femininity are outdated and I don't agree with them, but I'm still intrigued by the idea of an internal archetype of this sort. Is that what I'm sensing when I talk about the guy inside of me? Is he just my animus?

I am essentially a Taoist. I find Jung's theories on Anima / Animus delightfully reflective of what we call Yin Yang theory. The famous Taoist text, the Tao te Ching states :

The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things.

One giving birth to the two, represents spirit moving from essence into the limitless manifestations of physical reality.The physical world of two, or duality, being a dance between polar opposites, or Yin and Yang. The forces of Yin and Yang are not static, nor do they exists separate from one another, and each holds within it the essence of the other. A multidimensional interweaving of opposites, within and without. Pushing, pulling dancing, changing, giving birth to limitless possibilities of physical manifestation. This is represented in the Yin Yang Symbol.

http://www.shiatsudo.co.uk/images/yin-yang.gif

Black represents Yin or the feminine aspects of the universe, white represents male or Yang aspects of the universe. The dot in each represents yin within yang, and yang within yin. The shape rather than a straight line, represents the fluid movement of the dance between them. Through this dance nothing is impossible, but a matter of the right balance of opposites in space and time. This dance between good and evil, male and female, dark and light, action / inaction, hot and cold, etc. essentially exists without guilt, blame or judgment. It is the human mind that adds that layer. It is just "the dance".

So yes, when it comes to my identity as a Femme, I do relate to the theories of Anima. The yin nature of the universe. The divine Feminine is what calls to me, the essence of my expressions. Layered upon that is my need to share body, and my soul with another woman, one who reflects a strong yang within yin.

The Mysterious Female

The Valley Spirit never dies
It is named the Mysterious Female.
And the doorway of the Mysterious Female
Is the base from which Heaven and Earth sprang.
It is there within us all the while;
Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry ~Tao te Ching

:rose: Pashi

Lynn

05-21-2010, 08:16 AM

I love your questions.

:stillheart:

Over the past ten years or more, I have developed some definite ideas about myself, as a spiritual being. Coming out in this time period has been a part of the process of connecting to myself more honestly, and of clarifying who I am in relation to the universe. I believe that humans are spiritual beings who are bigger than and more than their bodies. Even so, coming out has been as much a sexual heightening as it has been spiritual. I can't help connecting the two when I am feeling so much more centered and alive. It feels like I am more expanded and aware now, which makes me feel like my identity and sexual preferences are more incidental--they are signposts of a greater type of development, beyond the body, but a part of it. Life is so much brighter now, and sex is so amazing, I seriously am often moved to prayer. I'm thankful that the dots finally connect.

Nat

05-21-2010, 09:41 AM

I loved reading both of your posts, Pashi and Lynn. Both are so insightful and beautifully written. Thank you so much for posting them. :)

Enigma

05-29-2010, 04:30 PM

~Twin Souls - When Love Incarnates~

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Kätzchen

05-29-2010, 05:11 PM

AtLast

06-12-2010, 07:37 PM

Everything about me has a spiritual center...

This certainly a far cry from my early days of actually wanting to enter a formal theological ministry with a Christian base. In fact, these two stages of my life have no commonality any longer.

Venus007

06-14-2010, 02:37 PM

I am posting here in passing, (I am at lunch) but I will be back with something more thought out. Subscribing

Andrew, Jr.

06-14-2010, 03:05 PM

This is a great thread Nat! Thanks for starting this.

Reincarnation: Yes, I believe in it. For me, I believe that I must have been some nasty, evil, biomale who abused people. So in order for me to move forward in the after life, I have to correct/fix the past mistakes. However, I do believe that I was killed/murdered in my past life. Hence I have tbi, asperger's and everything that goes with that, and a body that betrays me each and every day. Nothing can come close to my hell on earth. So, that leaves me with the thinking that I must have been a horrible person in my prior life. I must have been too busy for those who needed me. Now I am in a situation where I have time, but few folks who do care.

I believe that everyone and every thing has a center or being. And we all are intertwinned within each other. It's destiny. There are no mistakes in life. Everything happens for a reason, good and horrible.

There are many many layers of reality as we know of them. Some people are awake and know what I mean, and then there are some who have no clue as to what it is. It's perception that's all. For example, if I go with Dino on a hiking trip and I take Nate with me. We both may look at the same log cabin and he will hate it and say it looks like a tepee or wigwam from an era long ago. I will say no it's a log cabin that has been taken over by brush, animals, insects, and the aging process. Who is right? Who is wrong? Nobody. We all have different perceptions. There are no right or wrong answers in life. We just have to strive to be in tune with the reality and dimension that we are interacting with. Make sense?

I believe that once someone understands and accepts certain things, the universe becomes an entirely new dimension. A new respect for the living comes about. The universe does talk to each of us. We just have to be open to listening to it.

Namaste,
Andrew

foxyshaman

06-15-2010, 09:35 AM

Good question Nat;

I am inbetween tasks right now but want to write a bit when I have some time later today.

Andrew, Jr.

06-15-2010, 09:45 AM

I have a friend of mine who told me this saying, and it sticks with me all the time. She told me this some time ago when my sister was dying. She said that if you draw a circle - not a heart - around the ones you love. Hearts can be broken, but circles go on forever. I really never gave any thought to that until recently. She was very right. And it applies to all relationships.

Medusa

06-23-2010, 10:19 AM

Interesting thread, Nat! I would be interested to see a poll with gender id versus spiritual beliefs :)

Nat

06-23-2010, 11:30 AM

Interesting thread, Nat! I would be interested to see a poll with gender id versus spiritual beliefs :)

:) thanks very much Medusa! I would be more than happy to add a poll to the thread tonight. I gotta think about how best to set one up. Is there any info you'd be most intrigued to see?

Glenn

06-23-2010, 11:36 AM

I will state here with absolute certainty, through direct experience, that God is both Male and Female, Butch and Femme.

Sachita

06-23-2010, 11:46 AM

SuperFemme

06-23-2010, 12:37 PM

Complicated. I think that being raised a good Catholic girl made for a torturous road to my relationship with self and the gender of Femme.

I'm not even sure it is completely accurate to say that Femme is my gender, but it is not encompassing enough to simply state that my gender is female. If that makes sense.

All through grade school and high school I felt myself to be the antithesis of what I was being told I was supposed to be. That led to a lot of years of self loathing, self deprecation and general confusion.

My gender was not Mary Magdalene or Joan of Arc, but rather a mixture of masculine and feminine components that seemed to be at odds with each other if I listened to Sister Mary Anne.

In a way I am grateful because I feel that my sexuality and my gender intertwined with my inquisitive nature and sent me on a spiritual quest.

In the end the gift of spirituality was all encompassing and has led me to self love and inner peace.

I have NO idea if anything I just said makes any sense to anyone else....

AtLast

06-23-2010, 01:13 PM

AtLastHome brought up in another thread that she applies her spirituality to her butch identity.

I also at least wonder if my gender experience has a spiritual root. I am curious if others here have found their spirituality either helps them understand or is otherwise entwined with their orientation and/or gender.

Yes, I do and it is intertwined with the lesbian portion of my soul/spirit. It took me a very long time to cleanse the negative religious roots I had and allow another spiritual base to appear. And Jungian psychology is at the core for me. Plus, paranormal entities.

The butch aspect is that yin and yang (for want of a better term) of female and male as a butch that for me, is light within. The anima and animus and the past archetypes connected to me in that collective unconscious. I doubt I will ever be able to explain this outside of myself. That's OK, maybe it isn't meant for outside understanding. Maybe that is what spirituality really is, personal.

I want to nourish this aspect of myself more in retirement. Travel is the key.... going to where ancient souls began and world beliefs still live on. Learning more about Native American spirituality here is also key.

I don't really have any feelings about a deity, per se. Just energy and it is female and male energy that just cannot be separated. It must coexist.

Greyson

06-23-2010, 01:38 PM

Yes, I do and it is intertwined with the lesbian portion of my soul/spirit. It took me a very long time to cleanse the negative religious roots I had and allow another spiritual base to appear. And Jungian psychology is at the core for me. Plus, paranormal entities.

The butch aspect is that yin and yang (for want of a better term) of female and male as a butch that for me, is light within. The anima and animus and the past archetypes connected to me in that collective unconscious. I doubt I will ever be able to explain this outside of myself. That's OK, maybe it isn't meant for outside understanding. Maybe that is what spirituality really is, personal.

I want to nourish this aspect of myself more in retirement. Travel is the key.... going to where ancient souls began and world beliefs still live on. Learning more about Native American spirituality here is also key.

I don't really have any feelings about a deity, per se. Just energy and it is female and male energy that just cannot be separated. It must coexist.

I have similar notions. I think masculine and feminine are moving toward a blend that is more than coexisting. The "energy" nourishes, thrives, blends, expresses as one, the same.

I spend much time talking about and thinking as to why we attach gender based labels to our behaviour, thinking, emotions, creativity and so on. I see my gender as an expression of my evolving, "peeling the onion". (Keep in mind that "the onion" is unique to each individual.) It's ironic that the more I move into a masculine expression, the more my feminine consciousness and expression grew, opened up.

Andrew, Jr.

06-23-2010, 02:46 PM

foxyshaman

06-23-2010, 03:47 PM

Glenn

06-23-2010, 03:48 PM

The word just makes most folks think it is a negative. I don't. I think Karma is both positive and negative. Ying and Yang. It is like two hands intertwined. I think and believe that every action has a reaction (sounds like a phyics thing). For example when my sister died, I have many other women come into my life that not necessarily replaced her, but added onto my family of choice. It is just one more to go thru life with. I celebrate that fact.

Does anyone else have this thinking?

God wants us to express our love beyond family toward all genders and nationalities, and not be limited in consciousness. That is why when we are reborn we do not remember everyone we've known before because it would be limiting our love.

Bit

06-23-2010, 04:28 PM

I believe in reincarnation, and for a long time I have believed that people who know they are in the wrong bodies know it because their spirit/soul remembers who they were before, in other lifetimes.

I myself have no memories of past lives as a man; as far as I know, I have always been female in every life.

I have partnered with Butches who have active memories of past lives as men. Some of them have been happy with this, and some have been completely uncomfortable with it.

Before I believed in reincarnation and multiple gods/goddesses, Butches didn't make a lot of sense to me (and Transsexed people even less!) because I was trapped in the dominant religious binary, believing that we all had to conform to specific ways of being. So I would say, yes, my spirituality has a strong bearing on my understanding of gender, and certainly gave me the freedom to explore myself as a gendered being. I don't think I would have the same understanding at all if I had kept a different spirituality, because I just wasn't open to understanding anything while I was busy following other people's rules... I was too scared to allow differences and diversity then.

foxyshaman

06-23-2010, 04:39 PM

I believe in reincarnation, and for a long time I have believed that people who know they are in the wrong bodies know it because their spirit/soul remembers who they were before, in other lifetimes.

I too have come to embrace the idea that we remember who we were and that can affect who we are. I do remember lives as both men and women. I remember lives as good people and the not so good people.

I remember living as a male warrior who went crazy and killed people for fun. My tribe gathered and I agreed to die. In my agreement to die I also agreed never ever to enter that tribe again. I even can still hear the three shamans that gathered to sing my soul over the other side...lest I stay as an angry ghost and inhabit the body of another. I did not understand this for a very long time in this life I just knew that certain people made my throat close and I was never treated very nicely by them, even strangers. Since recovering that knowledge I have become a bit more comfortable, but still steer very clear. It has really affected my spiritual life this time around. I have more compassion for mentally ill people I think than I would have otherwise. Perhaps not, but I like to think that it made a difference in my life.

Nat

06-23-2010, 05:10 PM

I tend to think movement into the age of Aquarius (from the dualistic age of Pisces) accounts for the move away from binaries and the acknowledgment of the multitudes of experiences and paths people have. I also tend to at least want to think that fundamentalist oppression against gender and orientation variance is as vehement as it is because things are actually changing. At least that's what I hope.

princessbelle

06-23-2010, 05:14 PM

What a most interesting thread. Gosh, the lovely posts here are so informative.

I, like Bit, also feel I have always been female identified. However, I'm sure there is a possiblity that my male version at some point "got it right" and has now possibly intertwined with the female yin of me. I have several past recollections of "scenes" in my past lives. But no chapter to fully collaborate what the book was and how it was written.

I have small verses of past lives....ie; a rememberance of waving to a knight as he/hy rode his/hys horse in jousting; working in a field picking strawberries in a huge bottomed dress that had to have been in the middle ages; falling down steps in a victorian home again felt to be in the middle ages and having a miscarriage of a son. There are more, I won't go on and on.

It is amazing for me to read what others think about pasts lives and how they relate to gender awareness today and in doing so embracing the spirituality that comes from self recognition and awareness.

I also believe that if we learn to embrace our spiritual side more the past lives of our so called "books" will be released verse by verse, page by page, chapter by chapter.

I am ready to read.

AtLast

06-23-2010, 05:42 PM

Third Gender is a term I have used for myself for many years... or tri-sexual. I do not use the term in reference to my sexual orientation, rather my spiritual identification. Shamanism is my love. Shamans have often been considered the third gender. They were often times the ones in the community who could and would speak/negotiate/heal both genders. Many traditional cultures had titles and designations for the shamans (also known by other names). I have felt as though I have straddled both genders simply because of the role I have been assigned spiritually.

I call myself a dyke, but that is another thread :winky:.

Spirit has called me to practice and study shamanism, and my training has been as a warrior. I tend to see my spiritual life as my masculine/Animus self and my living life as my feminine/anima self. In this way I see myself as a third gender, that space in-between F and M. Encompassing both as a balanced spiritual practice/balanced spiritual human.

When shamanic cultures were being explored/discovered most of the individuals recording what they saw came from a binary culture, with little or no understanding of a third gender. Often times the orientation of the shaman was not written about, because it was simply not recognized. In different traditions shamans would have to undergo rituals which included changing their gender. Or it would be that women shamans were not allowed to 'shamanize' if they had children and could only be considered a shaman if their children were past the age they needed their mother. Male shamans were often dressed as women and often took partners who were male or very masculine females, what we might term as butch.

Shamans have crossed the barriers of gender for generations. It simply was a part of their calling to encompass and understand both genders and the specifics required to 'shamanize' the different genders.

Anyway those are just some of my thoughts.

Thank for these thoughts.

This speaks to my internalizations of both gender and sexuality as a butch. The barriers about gender as well as sexuality have been so misinterpreted in modern cultures, I believe. And the tension created internally as well as externally due to this is so hard for some and so fed with the Puritan Ethic (well, as we view this ethic, today- this is what messing with history leads to).

I'm a blend (well, we all are, really) and am grateful for being at peace with this. Two-Spirit as well as the ways of the Shamanism seem to just be barrier free in terms of gender and sexuality which is a positive energy force as I experience it. I am grateful for this as many do not have this peace and flow. Although, everyone has their own way to get where they want to go!

I often think about the relationship of anima and animus with taking either testosterone or estrogen and how many transpeople begin to experience sexual attraction thereafter with many finding themselves attracted more to the gender of their own transition (male to male, female to female). Jung would have a field day if he were alive today and able to study this! For me this puts bisexuality as well as homosexuality on a whole new level.

Ebon

06-23-2010, 06:22 PM

The word just makes most folks think it is a negative. I don't. I think Karma is both positive and negative. Ying and Yang. It is like two hands intertwined. I think and believe that every action has a reaction (sounds like a phyics thing). For example when my sister died, I have many other women come into my life that not necessarily replaced her, but added onto my family of choice. It is just one more to go thru life with. I celebrate that fact.

Does anyone else have this thinking?

Yes and people use it in a weird context at times. I won't say incorrect because to each their own. I believe that we do have karma from past lives but we can also change our life's path or at least make it heaven or hell. I also believe that we are here to learn and grow. Knowing this I've decideded to love, laugh, teach and learn as much as possible and have so much fun while doing it. Amen lol

Bit

06-24-2010, 12:36 AM

I also tend to at least want to think that fundamentalist oppression against gender and orientation variance is as vehement as it is because things are actually changing. At least that's what I hope.

I believe this is true. I think the change has elicited a backlash, which will eventually die away.

Certainly, there are religions with a LOT to say about gender, both gender identity and gender expression.

AtLast

06-24-2010, 11:09 AM

Yes and people use it in a weird context at times. I won't say incorrect because to each their own. I believe that we do have karma from past lives but we can also change our life's path or at least make it heaven or hell. I also believe that we are here to learn and grow. Knowing this I've decideded to love, laugh, teach and learn as much as possible and have so much fun while doing it. Amen lol

Thinking that so many things get mis-used and directed. Maybe because understanding isn't really present? Yes, I believe we all make our own positive or negative ... post childhood. LOL... my Mom cut children a lot of slack (especially with concepts like sin- she said children did not sin!) and I guess I do too. When we are adults, it is time to just take responsibility for actions. But, the foundation has to laid while we grow up- mainly in our adult role models.

I believe Karma is real and infinite. But, as you say, its context is often misunderstood because it has become a buz word. Why people think that a concept that is ancient and takes years to learn (by the practice of a particular faith or spiritual path) can be thrown around like confetti is beyond me. Understanding Karma is not wearing a T-shirt with it spelled-out on it!

Ebon

06-24-2010, 11:36 AM

Thinking that so many things get mis-used and directed. Maybe because understanding isn't really present? Yes, I believe we all make our own positive or negative ... post childhood. LOL... my Mom cut children a lot of slack (especially with concepts like sin- she said children did not sin!) and I guess I do too. When we are adults, it is time to just take responsibility for actions. But, the foundation has to laid while we grow up- mainly in our adult role models.

I believe Karma is real and infinite. But, as you say, its context is often misunderstood because it has become a buz word. Why people think that a concept that is ancient and takes years to learn (by the practice of a particular faith or spiritual path) can be thrown around like confetti is beyond me. Understanding Karma is not wearing a T-shirt with it spelled-out on it!

The foundation is so important but some parents are still children themselves. Some have children because they didn't feel enough love growing up so they want someone to love them and they think having a baby is the way to go. I know someone that did that which is why I'm using it as an example. Some people forget how important it is to teach in those younger years so that we don't grow up completely effed up. lol

It took me awhile to really get what Karma was. I grew up in a fear based religion equipped with the heaven and hell threat. I figured out when I was 9 that it was not for me. I am thankful that it is a part of my foundation but the energy is just so dark and thick. I did some searching in my 20's and finally figured out that for me spirituality has to come from within. I can make my own set of rules that are inline with the Universal Laws (including the law of karma) without all of the darkness attached. But at the same time I think the darkness is an important lesson for me to realize where I don't want to be. I had to experience and accept parts of myself that I don't want to be. It's hard but it has helped me see and feel energy better and understand how the universe works for me.

AtLast

06-24-2010, 12:15 PM

The foundation is so important but some parents are still children themselves. Some have children because they didn't feel enough love growing up so they want someone to love them and they think having a baby is the way to go. I know someone that did that which is why I'm using it as an example. Some people forget how important it is to teach in those younger years so that we don't grow up completely effed up. lol

It took me awhile to really get what Karma was. I grew up in a fear based religion equipped with the heaven and hell threat. I figured out when I was 9 that it was not for me. I am thankful that it is a part of my foundation but the energy is just so dark and thick. I did some searching in my 20's and finally figured out that for me spirituality has to come from within. I can make my own set of rules that are inline with the Universal Laws (including the law of karma) without all of the darkness attached. But at the same time I think the darkness is an important lesson for me to realize where I don't want to be. I had to experience and accept parts of myself that I don't want to be. It's hard but it has helped me see and feel energy better and understand how the universe works for me.

Yes, the dark and thick- good way to put it. I am so thankful that even though I had a Roman Catholic upbringing, my mother threw out sins of children (she thought it was an insane burden for kids) and also would lean over us during mass and say that part isn't true when the priest did the part that stated the Catholic church was the one true church of the world. I know her ideas came about because of her own strict upbringing and having to deal with the wounds she experienced.

We were given a religious foundation, but, allowed to explore others. My folks had no problem with us going to a friend's church if we wanted to. LOL, and that was considered a sin by Catholics! To go to another faith's service! Weird! Later, I knew I had to leave Christianity altogether, but needed a spiritual base. Everyone does this differently and I think, just finds the road they want to walk which to me demonstrates the fluidity of faith. Even in becoming agnostic or an atheist, actually.

I did the same with my kid (and his other parents also took this stand). LOL, he ended up marrying a very devout Catholic woman! She would not marry him without his taking First Communion and being Confirmed Catholic formally!! He had him baptized and we all figured he would just decide for himself later about religion. He did. I adore my daughter-in-law, so what the hell! None of my business, anyway. He had many teachers and models and makes his own adult decisions. I bless them all!

I do wish I had much more exposure to Eastern religions and Native American spirituality as a child. These have helped me balance myself internally even though I am not one to practice in any formal manner really (always learning). Guess I am just focused on my internal processes, not outward manifestations of spirituality or faith. Dunno… I do know that my gender and sexuality are influenced by this, however in a way that is issue-free. I would love for this peace to be felt by all in this world as there has been so much ugliness because of gender and sexuality we all have had to deal with. I also know that I cannot be intimate with another without a mutual sense of spirit. I feel like we are in a time (although, just beginning in may ways) wherein this can be true. One can have hope! But so much of what we have known as religion, faith and spirituality must evolve.

Andrew, Jr.

06-24-2010, 12:24 PM

I believe in love. That is all that matters here and now. When we are reincarnated we make up for the mistakes of now and today. Until we get it right do we move on in the next life. For me, it is about being forgiving and loving towards all. It is not easy. In fact, hard. But I try. I try to be a man of faith, and of good will towards everyone. I have also learned the joy of not judging others. That is really a load off my back. If I am judgemental, I miss out on the spirit of other people. What makes them tick. What is inside them. What happened to them. Why they behave the way they do now.

I do remember some of my past lives. If anyone has tried past regressive hypnosis please post about it. I find it very comforting.

I grew up with a self-rightous jackass. But I am working on forgiving that jackass. It is an ongoing project for me. :candle:

Bit

06-24-2010, 12:36 PM

I too have come to embrace the idea that we remember who we were and that can affect who we are. I do remember lives as both men and women. I remember lives as good people and the not so good people.

I've been thinking about this. Yanno, I don't think people have to actually remember their individual past lives. I think sometimes there's just this sense of "who I am" and "who I should be" that comes through, even without past life memories... a soul sense, maybe.

My Dad knew who he was when he was born this time--that's how I know he's back--but I suspect that sense will fade. If it doesn't, then I suspect the little girl will have some strong tomboy tendencies, yanno? And I'll be interested to know how her life turns out and what parts of his past life have carried forward. He carried music in his soul like you carry Shamanism, and the new mother has named the baby Ella--my Dad adored Ella Fitzgerald, she was his favorite. I don't think this is a coincidence!--so will we see an incredible musician again, or will some other part of life come to the fore now?

What fascinates me is that my Dad was strongly indoctrinated with Christianity in his last life, and Ella lives in a Pagan family. Will Paganism give her a different way to understand gender? Will she have that knowing, that soul sense, that she was supposed to be a boy? Will she find a way to incorporate "man" and "woman" both into her life?

Maybe the soul sense will fade, and she will simply experience life as a feminine (or not) woman.

This is fascinating, yanno? I really hope I get to watch her grow up.

foxyshaman

06-24-2010, 01:26 PM

Thank for these thoughts.

This speaks to my internalizations of both gender and sexuality as a butch. The barriers about gender as well as sexuality have been so misinterpreted in modern cultures, I believe. And the tension created internally as well as externally due to this is so hard for some and so fed with the Puritan Ethic (well, as we view this ethic, today- this is what messing with history leads to).

I'm a blend (well, we all are, really) and am grateful for being at peace with this. Two-Spirit as well as the ways of the Shamanism seem to just be barrier free in terms of gender and sexuality which is a positive energy force as I experience it. I am grateful for this as many do not have this peace and flow. Although, everyone has their own way to get where they want to go!

I often think about the relationship of anima and animus with taking either testosterone or estrogen and how many transpeople begin to experience sexual attraction thereafter with many finding themselves attracted more to the gender of their own transition (male to male, female to female). Jung would have a field day if he were alive today and able to study this! For me this puts bisexuality as well as homosexuality on a whole new level.

I would be happy to know what Jung might have felt or written about in this context. I have never researched any of his papers that were written specifically on homosexuality and the "S" self relationship. I use along of Jungian terminology when I explaining shamanism to my students. I use his modern language to describe an ancient practice and idealogy. Our conceptual language has grown leaps and bounds, but our spiritual language has been much slower to come to the forefront of our intellectual musings.

I think we get the terms anima/animus confused with our binary concepts of male and female. Anima and animus are not related to male and female, rather masculine and feminine principles co-existing in our psyche. I am sure ALH you could write it better and more understandable than I could/can. My understanding... brass tacks... is that masculine refers to the doing, and anima refers to the being. Animus writes this message, anima is the inspiration behind the writing. I hope that comes out right??

I have long wondered what the addition of estrogen and testoterone have done to psyche, not just of the individual, but if we accept that we are all interconnected, than how does it affect the psyche of the family...community...society...country... I think it has to. :canoworms:

It has been exciting for me to actively seek the experiential aspects of Shamanism. I have pushed the boundaries, in my own ways, of gender and gender roles both in the physical world andin the spiritual world. I have found the the spirits don't really recognize gender assignments, such as strength, fortitude, compassion... rather they seem to expect the ability of the individual journeyor to transcend our preconceived notions of boundaries/gender.

I have not had to struggle with gender identity, but I have had to struggle with spiritual identity not only for myself, but also for my students and patients. In my case male spirits were my main teachers, except for my grandmother and holy hell you just did not wanna cross that spirit, no how no way. Everytime I did I generally ended up bleeding. Anyway I sense a tangent coming on... must stop tangents....:blink:

It is not often that I am able to freely discuss this aspect of shamanism that I find endlessly fascinating. I have studied Third Gender for a number of years. When I first read about the concept I felt like my world/foundation had rocked under me. I was really sent for a loop, I came back but with a much better understanding of myself. :deepthoughts: Interesting side note, when reading anthropology regarding shamans, just because the author does not mention the third gender don't assume it was not there... assume it was.

foxyshaman

06-24-2010, 01:30 PM

I've been thinking about this. Yanno, I don't think people have to actually remember their individual past lives. I think sometimes there's just this sense of "who I am" and "who I should be" that comes through, even without past life memories... a soul sense, maybe.

My Dad knew who he was when he was born this time--that's how I know he's back--but I suspect that sense will fade. If it doesn't, then I suspect the little girl will have some strong tomboy tendencies, yanno? And I'll be interested to know how her life turns out and what parts of his past life have carried forward. He carried music in his soul like you carry Shamanism, and the new mother has named the baby Ella--my Dad adored Ella Fitzgerald, she was his favorite. I don't think this is a coincidence!--so will we see an incredible musician again, or will some other part of life come to the fore now?

What fascinates me is that my Dad was strongly indoctrinated with Christianity in his last life, and Ella lives in a Pagan family. Will Paganism give her a different way to understand gender? Will she have that knowing, that soul sense, that she was supposed to be a boy? Will she find a way to incorporate "man" and "woman" both into her life?

Maybe the soul sense will fade, and she will simply experience life as a feminine (or not) woman.

This is fascinating, yanno? I really hope I get to watch her grow up.

I absolutely agree with you that we do not have to remember our past lives in order to be affected by them. I accept that prior to entry we decide a great many things, right down to eye color and height. As an adopted child I struggled to find similarities in my family. I was very sprititually driven from a very young age. I came with my mystic tendancies fully activated. Soul sense is undeniable, at least in my reality it is.

It will be interesting to watch her grow up, and I too hope that you get to do that. It will be an interesting set of lessons to share with others, and hopefully understandings that you can take to your next life... providing you are coming back here. I love the Ella link.. just positively love it!!!

AtLast

06-24-2010, 02:04 PM

I would be happy to know what Jung might have felt or written about in this context. I have never researched any of his papers that were written specifically on homosexuality and the "S" self relationship. I use along of Jungian terminology when I explaining shamanism to my students. I use his modern language to describe an ancient practice and idealogy. Our conceptual language has grown leaps and bounds, but our spiritual language has been much slower to come to the forefront of our intellectual musings.

I think we get the terms anima/animus confused with our binary concepts of male and female. Anima and animus are not related to male and female, rather masculine and feminine principles co-existing in our psyche. I am sure ALH you could write it better and more understandable than I could/can. My understanding... brass tacks... is that masculine refers to the doing, and anima refers to the being. Animus writes this message, anima is the inspiration behind the writing. I hope that comes out right??

I have long wondered what the addition of estrogen and testoterone have done to psyche, not just of the individual, but if we accept that we are all interconnected, than how does it affect the psyche of the family...community...society...country... I think it has to. :canoworms:

It has been exciting for me to actively seek the experiential aspects of Shamanism. I have pushed the boundaries, in my own ways, of gender and gender roles both in the physical world andin the spiritual world. I have found the the spirits don't really recognize gender assignments, such as strength, fortitude, compassion... rather they seem to expect the ability of the individual journeyor to transcend our preconceived notions of boundaries/gender.

I have not had to struggle with gender identity, but I have had to struggle with spiritual identity not only for myself, but also for my students and patients. In my case male spirits were my main teachers, except for my grandmother and holy hell you just did not wanna cross that spirit, no how no way. Everytime I did I generally ended up bleeding. Anyway I sense a tangent coming on... must stop tangents....:blink:

It is not often that I am able to freely discuss this aspect of shamanism that I find endlessly fascinating. I have studied Third Gender for a number of years. When I first read about the concept I felt like my world/foundation had rocked under me. I was really sent for a loop, I came back but with a much better understanding of myself. :deepthoughts: Interesting side note, when reading anthropology regarding shamans, just because the author does not mention the third gender don't assume it was not there... assume it was. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

No... anima and animus are not heteronormative binary at all... that is the beauty!

foxyshaman

06-24-2010, 02:30 PM

No... anima and animus are not heteronormative binary at all... that is the beauty!

See I knew you would put it better than I could. But that was what I was getting at!!! :thumbsup:

Bit

06-24-2010, 03:26 PM

It has been exciting for me to actively seek the experiential aspects of Shamanism. I have pushed the boundaries, in my own ways, of gender and gender roles both in the physical world andin the spiritual world. I have found the the spirits don't really recognize gender assignments, such as strength, fortitude, compassion... rather they seem to expect the ability of the individual journeyor to transcend our preconceived notions of boundaries/gender.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

This is interesting. What I have found--remember, my experience is MUCH more limited than yours!--is that ghosts are generally gendered by their last lifetime as people or animals; for example, Margaret-Guardian-of-That-House remains not just female, but grandmotherly (I changed so much after I hit 50 that I'm almost willing to consider "Grandma" as a gender! lol, well, maybe Crone?). The animals who have come back to me as ghosts have come in a spirit form of their physical body, not always as the same species but always as the same sex, and the one who came back human was definitely gendered "girl/woman"... Maiden.

BUT the spirits that have chosen to work with me in my spiritual growth are different. They are not gendered in any way that fits my understanding of gender. Instead, they acknowledge my limits, my need to categorize, and they choose a gender for me to relate to so that awkwardness is reduced. In this case it is not gender that gets in the way of my spiritual growth, but lack of gender.

I absolutely agree with you that we do not have to remember our past lives in order to be affected by them. I accept that prior to entry we decide a great many things, right down to eye color and height. As an adopted child I struggled to find similarities in my family. I was very sprititually driven from a very young age. I came with my mystic tendancies fully activated. Soul sense is undeniable, at least in my reality it is.

It will be interesting to watch her grow up, and I too hope that you get to do that. It will be an interesting set of lessons to share with others, and hopefully understandings that you can take to your next life... providing you are coming back here. I love the Ella link.. just positively love it!!!

:| Lord love a GOOSE, Foxy, I dunno if I like that thought... does that mean I pre-decided to be fat?! :blink:

Oh.... wait a minnit... waaaaiiitttt jusssst a minnit... that one has possibilities.... :cheesy: No more guilt... "Oh, yes, I pre-decided my body size in order to accelerate the growth of humanity..." *snort*

Um. Okay, how come I have a nagging feeling this might actually be TRUE?! Did all us fat females make an agreement to change the world or something?!

Anyway, what I really wanted to answer was about coming back here, because that startled me. I used to be VERRRY firm that I. Was. Done. No more for me, please and thank you! I was DONE. I never ever wanted to be a helpless child AGAIN.

That's changed sometime in the past three years and I find myself taking it for granted that I will come back. I don't even know when it changed!

I do know that I hope to come back not just as a female, but as a Queer Femme, because I cannot imagine being the-me-who-I-am any other way. I think Spirit will have to be pretty convincing to get me to come back under any other circumstances.

Of course, there's 50 years of life to go before that bridge needs crossed... who knows how I'll change in the meantime! :cheesy:

Venus007

06-26-2010, 10:19 PM

My spirituality and gender/orientation are related in that I believe that I am not only female but also the manifestation of an aspect of the divine or universal Feminine. I am the face of the Universe or of the great IS or Humanity to all the people I meet, or at least I strive to be. That face, for me is a feminine one. For me the divine is the mystery, the je ne sais quoi, the pi, the thirty three and a third, the shivery line between where the phenomena and the noumena meet, the Sophia. I believe that feminine and masculine are completely independent of biological designation. I do not believe in a god per say. My sexuality is tightly linked to my spirituality as I believe that orgastic ecstasy is a link to the divine, to enlightenment, to altered states of understanding, to the between space. As others have said before me, it is a struggle to articulate. I understand it perfectly but to describe it eludes me

Bit

06-27-2010, 09:01 AM

....I believe that feminine and masculine are completely independent of biological designation.

Oh now, THIS is interesting... part of me says "No WAY!!" and another part of me says "yes, of course that's it!"

Ambivalent much, Cath? lol....

Jett

08-09-2010, 08:05 AM

Speaking from my perspective, in my personal identity only.

As far as reincarnation, (and all purely in a hypothetical sense) when I was younger the thought crossed my mind that it would be likely if it existed that I was male in my previous life... my lady has made the comment as well. But that said I think it's perfectly natural for many people to be born with and/or develop strong dual energies that seemingly contrasts with bodily sex by societal standards .

These days I would say- again hypothetically- that if I had a past life it's just as likely I was gender non conforming... or fluidly gendered then too as I believe gender fluidity is natural thing and not a state of confusion created by a "spirits" or "souls" being binarily gendered and randomly tossed around (reincarnated) in different sexed bodies.

In other words I think it's society's pushing the (socially constructed) binary from day one that makes a fluid gender seem confusing to a person who is outside of what society deemed the only two norms.

In my life I've had a lot of struggles with "what am I". Speaking in the language available, within I'm distinctly of dual energy, yin and yang with a masculine slant in most areas and outer shell... yet it doesn't really trump the female energy, or outer markers... in most ways they are balanced and they are also one.

How has spirituality affected my views of my gender? I'm not sure it has. Only perhaps from my spiritual perspective and beliefs my "gender" feels simple, whole and natural, it's only from a societal, and human language perspective does it feel awkward.

Not sure I'm hitting on the mark of what you were asking for here Nat, but it's the first thoughts off the top of my head after skimming the thread (I'm pressed for time today).

Interesting thread (thumbs up),

Metro

AtLast

08-09-2010, 05:05 PM

Personally, my seeking explanation, comfort, self-knowledge brought me to Jung very early and the Great Mother of Neuman as a spiritual base. Both fit together for me not only in the concepts of unconscious archtypes of the feminine as spirit, but because of gender duality. As I studied Jung & Neuman, I became comfortable with my body as a masculine woman- as Met brings up, not really gender conforming based upon societal norms. Just what worked for me and has held true for many years.

HoneyedChrysanthemum

11-30-2010, 09:13 PM

this is in regards to reincarnation. when i was young and furthur into my youth, i was convinced i was a boy. i was born 3 months premature. a friend of mine who has degrees in things metaphysical and who has studied the eastern religions extensively, says that i jumped the gulf too soon. in my past life i might have been male or at least an amazonian dyke. but despite lessons from school on anatomy and getting my period (what a shock!), i remained convinced in one way that i was male. oddly enough, i accepted the role in my family's matriarchal tradition that i was female but somehow that co-existed with the notion that i was also a boy. i remained bi-gendered through college, despite being attracted primarily to butches. never to biologically BORN males. to FtMs, yes. but i never acted as a butch, even though my dress was androgenous or almost male. unless a person paid attention to my voice or my gestures (very femme), they would assume that i was a teenage boy. then came my epiphany! one day in my mid-twenties, i wandered into this boutique that sold FLAX and FLAX-type woman's clothing. despite myself, i tried on a blue natural fabric skirt and shirt. i looked in the mirror. something went, "click." i bought them and several other articles of clothing-dresses, skirts, etc. i went home and kept looking at myself in the mirror. YES! i WAS a girl! finally my gestures, voice and appearance harmonized! iwas NOT a boy-i was a grrl! i called my best friend and told her i was wearing a dress. she came rushing over to see for herself. she had been trying to tell me over the years but never could convince me that i was in fact a femme. now i believed, i believed. THAT was the reason i could not swagger! THAT was the reason the my hand around a tea-cup resembled a mudra! THAT was the reason that despite my boyish appearance, butches looked at me knowingly-and that i loved their knowing look! i never became a high femme or even a classic femme. i was always the bohemian, in natural fabrics but now dresses, now perfume...i still don't know how i turned out femme instead of butch. buti did and i am and oh, so glad! thank Tao, Goddess, Universe that i am femme and butches always knew!
that is my reincarnation story!
pres :moonstars: