Expectations of FTMs/transsexed men (Dylan's thread)

[Dylan]

ETA by Linus: This thread was created out of this other existing thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235) and put as a separate thread to allow it to be discussed on it's own. Enjoy


I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

[Sachita]

Hmmm.. what attracts me to transguys? (Yesss.. I'm a very BI transguy, lol)

Well, first of all, most of them *get* it.. The body image thing, the hormones, all of it.. I don't have to explain about any of that.. Notice, i said "most".. I had a hook up recently, a transguy that has been on hormones for years.. He kept telling me that he was straight and only dated females, but that I was soooo hot and how he'd wanted into my pants for months.. We get to doing the ditty and he keeps telling me how straight he is and wants to play with my "titties" and "pussy".. lol.. Yeah, dude was confused.. On a side note, didn't let that lil guy sleep until i was well and done. LOL

My point with that story? Not all transguys are these wonderfully evolved beings that have every quality that anyone could want because they lived both sides of the fence. It just doesn't happen that way. All people are people, no matter if they are Mr transgender avenger or Ms ignorant polly in buttitch, nc..

I got side tracked, didn't I? Dear dear.. ok, so, what makes me hot for transguys *grins* Hair.. Love body and face hair.. The smell.. Love that *man* smell.. Most transguys that I continue to have relations with know how to treat my cock and my man cunt.. did I mention body hair? Ohhhh yeah!

So, that is my very "gay" in put on this subject :D

-Tony, who was also sneezed on and farted on by that a for mentioned straight transman.. No shit.. it's true! lmao (worst hook up.. EVER)

PS- the sneezing and farting? TOTALLY non consentual :( awww..

omg that is funny as shit. I would love to be a fly on the wall in your world sometime. I think its very cool how candid, open and honest you are.

[Dylan]

I personally am not the slightest bit surprised that a queer femme would have a preference for someone associated with her queer community (which wouldn't be the same as the gay male community that a bisexual man would tend to be a part of).

Unless the bisexual male were part of the queer community or part of the bisexual community (which exists)

I don't understand why a bisexual man would *tend* (your word) to be a part of the gay male community.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Unless the bisexual male were part of the queer community or part of the bisexual community (which exists)

I don't understand why a bisexual man would *tend* (your word) to be a part of the gay male community.


Dylan

Shrug. Wasn't my point. Yes there are different types of communities that theoretically a bisexual man could be a part of.

[BullDog]

I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

On the flip side a lot of trans men are going to be sadly disappointed if they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women.

[Dylan]

I would really appreciate someone explaining to me how One 'acts like a biomale'


Seriously, Since It's Been Said So Many Times In This Thread,
Dylan

[Dylan]

On the flip side a lot of trans men are going to be sadly disappointed if they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women.

Is there a transman in this thread or on this site who has said they expect queer femmes to be exactly like straight women?


Because I'm Not Seeing Your Point,
Dylan...would think ANYONE with expectations is going to be disappointed when dating REAL people

[BullDog]

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

[TenderKnight]

omg that is funny as shit. I would love to be a fly on the wall in your world sometime. I think its very cool how candid, open and honest you are.

LOL, thank you.. Yeah, it seems like my life is a sitcom at times.. That's ok, more laugh lines for me :D

On the topic.. I am enjoying everyone's posts so far.. Love the way folks have been honest and yet not defensive :)

-Tony

[adorable]

I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan



I am involved with someone who is TG. He is a man. So much so that how his body looks is irrelevant. I have been with cis men. I have been with women. He ain't a woman. He doesn't think like one. He doesn't act like one. He isn't one. He doesn't want to be one. He isn't more sensitive and there isn't some beautiful dual energy with him. If there was I wouldn't be there. Period. Was he socially conditioned as a woman? Yes. Does that make him not from Mars? No.

I think we all go through periods of time when we try out different ID's and try new things to see what works for us. Many TGs and FTMs that I know (and I make it sound like I know 1000s, in reality it's more like 10.) have ID'd differently at different times in their life just like the rest of us. At no time does that change the core of who we are or who they are. For example, I'm an asshole. This is true whether I call myself a sweet girly girl or not - and I'm still an asshole regardless of who I wake up next to.

How I chose to ID has no bearing on his ID. I don't have to explain that or justify it to anyone. We get it. We are what matters at the end of the day.

And if he said to me tomorrow, we are outta this community (in general not BFP specifically) - I would go in a heartbeat - because I have seen just how unwelcoming and just how separatist this community can be when it comes to TG's, male IDs and FTM's. Everyone ELSE can be who they are except for them. Somehow they need to embrace being a woman, even though they don't FEEL that way, otherwise - they lose their queer card.

Trying to be back on topic: I know for me personally I was attracted to his dominance, stubborness and inability to see reason. I <3 meanies.

[Dylan]

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

I never said anyone is 'supposed to be' attracted to anyone they're not attracted to

I said (basically), don't expect transmen to act a certain way or lump us all together with (gross) stereotypes...there's a big difference between that and what you're saying


You're Mixing My Words And You're Mixing My Words With The Words Of Other Posters,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?

Mmmm.. You don't need to be attracted to ALL men.. But, if a queer femme is attracted to me, I would want them to be attracted to me as the man I am and always have been, rather then as someone that was a woman and now looks like a man.. you know?

Why are there so many expectations put on queer femmes to understand men (trans and non-trans) in a queer community and not so much the other way around?

mmmm.. I get your frustration here, and I agree that it isn't fair for the full weight of understanding be put on a femme's shoulders.. I posted in another thread about how I am "relearning" a lot of what I learned about femmes.. Just as a bio guy would have to "relearn" a lot of the stereotypes put out there about what a woman is, isn't and supposed to be..

Just my input. :)

-Tony

[SuperFemme]

I personally am not the slightest bit surprised that a queer femme would have a preference for someone associated with her queer community (which wouldn't be the same as the gay male community that a bisexual man would tend to be a part of).

But you haven't told us why you're attracted to Dylan.....

[TenderKnight]

But you haven't told us why you're attracted to Dylan.....

I think it may be a mutual love of grape soda.. But I could be wrong..

[Dylan]

But you haven't told us why you're attracted to Dylan.....

I love when you get all two-spirity and third sexed and start asking questions


Femmes Are Just So Sensitive And Caring...Oh, And Great Bakers And Cleaners Too...But They Really Show Off Their Gendered Duality When They Start Asking Questions...It's Just Such A Turn On,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

I love when you get all two-spirity and third sexed and start asking questions


Femmes Are Just So Sensitive And Caring...Oh, And Great Bakers And Cleaners Too...But They Really Show Off Their Gendered Duality When They Start Asking Questions...It's Just Such A Turn On,
Dylan

You know.. I'm so not going to be a smartass here.. but I will say this.. No one does laundry better then a femme that is bare foot and in the kitchen.. and preggers with our love chile..

But really.. I know a transguy that can fluff and fold like nobody's business!

-Tony, who is totally being a smart ass.. Not all femmes can do laundry the way I like it..

[BullDog]

But you haven't told us why you're attracted to Dylan.....

Ha, ha. I am attracted to femmes.

Dylan, no I don't think all queers are lesbians.

Tony, I believe I understand what you are saying about seeing you as the man you always have been. I think honoring the journey someone has been on, no matter how they identify or what their gender is, is important. I get puzzled because there are different types of women. Why wouldn't there be different types of men? There are femme women, butch women, straight women, bisexual women, women who do not identify beyond woman, etc etc etc. I am attracted to femme women, not all women. I don't expect a femme who is attracted to butch women to necessarily be attracted to all women.

Some trans men are a part of queer communities and some aren't. Some feel their past growing up as female is an important part of their journey. Some don't.

[Rufusboi]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I'm confused about some of the terms. What is the difference between ftm and transman. Some posters seem to be using the two terms separately with different meanings. What does CIS stand for. Sorry to butt in to the thread but I'm finding the discussion very interesting but I get confused in places when it come to terminology.

My understanding, and how I will id when I go on T, is as trans. I would not id as ftm unless I had bottom surgery (genital reconstruction surgery) , which I am not planning to have. But I believe this is not the same way others define ftm. I've had top surgery and the hysterectomy and I've recently decided I will take the next step and take T. Once I take T I would id as trans. Right now I id as stone butch. I think that sometimes all the different terms I see here confuse me, as how I'm defining these terms are different from how the poster is defining them.



Rufus

[Dylan]

So, out of all of the people who've stated 'transmen don't act like *bio*men', no one can tell me how *bio*men act?

I guess too that *bio*men must not be 'sensitive' and 'in touch'

And since when did being 'sensitive' become a 'two spirity' thing? I mean, if your dad is being 'sensitive' is he all of the sudden 'two spirited'? Or is he just being a sensitive guy?

And, um, I've been on dates with a number of men who have held the doors and all o' that...so, since when did that become a 'special thing only transguys do?'

I mean, if I'm out with Mahhh Woman, and she opens the door, does that make her 'two spirity'?

Seriously, when in the HELL did these masculine/feminine social conditionings all of the sudden make anyone else dual gendered? If Mahhh Woman changes the tire, is she all of the sudden 'remembering her roots as a man' or some other b.s.? If my dad cooks dinner is he showing off his 'female' side?


Seriously, Isn't This The Type Of Thing We're Always Bitching About When It Comes To What Is Butch/What Is Femme/How Do You Define High Femme-Low Femme?,
Dylan

[TenderKnight]

I've been reading this thread from the beginning and I'm confused about some of the terms. What is the difference between ftm and transman. Some posters seem to be using the two terms separately with different meanings. What does CIS stand for. Sorry to butt in to the thread but I'm finding the discussion very interesting but I get confused in places when it come to terminology.

My understanding, and how I will id when I go on T, is as trans. I would not id as ftm unless I had bottom surgery (genital reconstruction surgery) , which I am not planning to have. But I believe this is not the same way others define ftm. I've had top surgery and the hysterectomy and I've recently decided I will take the next step and take T. Once I take T I would id as trans. Right now I id as stone butch. I think that sometimes all the different terms I see here confuse me, as how I'm defining these terms are different from how the poster is defining them.



Rufus

Hiya, Rufus :)

Just to give my deffinitions to some of those terms.. FTM is anyone that was born female but is going to or has transitioned to male.. This could be mentally, with hormones, or with all the sugeries.

Transgender is anyone that identifies as other then the "norm" for those born to any one body or sex. This can be a transgender Butch that has no desire to make physical changes, but who identifies as something other then what society terms as "she".

Transsexual is someone that has taken steps to change physically into what thier insides are.. So that the outside matches the inside..

These are *MY* personal deffinitions, and others may have diffrent ones.. Websters may have something totally diffrent still..

CIS is a term used to describe a male that was born male, or a female that was born female.. I have no idea where it came from, I just started hearing it in use about 6 months ago *shrugs*

Hope that helps out a bit and IMHO, whatever terms you are comfortable with, use them.. OWN them :) *pwn*

-Tony

[Toughy]

'Two Spirit' is about Native Americans.........ya know........those pesky folks who lived on this land prior to white people invading..........

I kinda wish all these white folks would stop stealing cultural terms from Native Americans. Two spirit is not for white folks to use anytime they want. Try learning before you appropriate terms from other cultures. Two spirit literally means 'having both a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit'.

I don't personally know any white FtMs/transmen who claim they have a feminine spirit. They only claim a male spirit.

Do some research folks.........

[Emmy]

I’d like to point out that answering the question of what attracts one to a specific group - whether it be men or women, in general, FTMs, MTFs, butches, femmes, etc., etc.* - would seem to require an appeal to stereotype. How else could the question be answered? And I can certainly see how, when that stereotype is articulated, it could be hurtful or offensive.

So what are we to make of that? Does it mean that all those who are not entirely pansexual trade in stereotypes, are worthy of blame? I’m honestly not sure how to work this problem out, exactly, but I do want to point out that it’s not specific to those who are attracted to FTMs…

Thanks very much!

-Emily



*Note: I am not implying here that these id’s are mutually exclusive- clearly they are not.

[Dylan]

Somehow they need to embrace being a woman, even though they don't FEEL that way, otherwise - they lose their queer card.

I <3 meanies.

I loved your whole post, but this part really got me, because I've known this for a long time, and I've talked about it to other guys who no longer participate on either site, but you're the first person I've seen bring it up in a post. This was especially true on the other site, but I see it happening here too.

And I wonder if this was part of Linus' thought process when he started the "Some Things Don't Need To Start With 'Trans'" thread (that's not the actual title, but I can't remember the actual title).

Guys can't just be 'guys' in this community. They have to be 'trans'guys, or 'FTMs', or (and I hate hate hate this one) 'Trans' (used as a noun as in: The Trans, or A Trans), or some other signifier to denote some sort of 'woman' aspect.

Or there's talk of 'the journey' <gag>

Or there's some comparison to 'bio' men. Or 'natal' men.

And then, we always have to 'honor our past/journey/path' what the hell ever (read: don't ever forget you're a woman)

And now, even holding the door for someone is a 'trans' guy 'thing to do'.

Or caring about One's partner is now a 'dual spirity' thing heralding back to 'womanhood'.


Thank You For Your Whole Post,
Dylan

[adorable]

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

[TenderKnight]

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.


I agree.. I think it is a good conversation and maybe a debate to be had here, but maybe not in this thread? Seems to be getting a bit *derailed*..

Dylan, I feel what you are saying, totally :)

[Kenna]

I feel bad because I think poor Billy really just wanted a fun thread that would bring out those who were attracted to FTMs. LOL!

Dylan - I think it would make a great thread on it's own and seriously it's a conversation that should be had. It's important.

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet

[Linus]

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.

[adorable]

Thank you. I appreciate someone saying something...

This isn't directed at any one person or specific posts: but the tone of recent posts have prevented me from responding as I originally wanted to. An angry, bitter or condescending tone will prevent me from participating. Sorry to put this out there... maybe if I felt I wouldn't be judged so harshly, I'd be willing to participate? But I wanted to thank all that have responded. It's been a good read and interesting.

And a special thanks to Billy,

TLC to all,
Sweet


I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

[Linus]

And if it will help, I have no issue with splitting the posts in question into a new thread and then updating the first to point back to here as a reference if that helps.


Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

[adorable]

Could someone tell me from what post onwards to create the new thread from?

I think Dylan's post #41 is a good one to use to start a thread.

[adorable]

Wow. As someone who is all kinds of non technical and computer stupid the fact that Linus just did this impresses the hell outta me. :) Thanks Linus!

[Dylan]

I think that these types of threads do kind of set us up because in REALITY what we want has nothing to do with stereotypes and everything to do with what WE WANT. But if you say so - it's easy for people to jump on you and say well - that isn't what ALL x, y & z do so - you are kinda screwed by saying ANYTHING lest you be seen as stereotyping. But it's not stereotyping if that's what you want.

In a community like this where so many people have been put into boxes by society I think it's natural to want to scream sometimes that we are not all so neatly fit into boxes. It would be nice if we could all acknowledge that and move on....and be able to laugh at ourselves the same way that the rest of world does at times. We may not be there yet. The wounds keep being opened by the others, in the real world where we all have to live and fight. From the way that many of these threads go it doesn't seem so....and in some cases in the real world where you can see the way things are said, with the facial expressions that go along with it - not as much as lost in translation. I suspect that makes it harder too.

It is hard to argue with ME statements. It is hard to argue with what I would love to find in an FTM is....Or the things I would love in a Femme. If someone reacts to a ME statement that I've made - I will either ignore them or point to the ME in the sentence.

Imagine if I were to write what I wanted - HA! O-M-G. Exactly ONE person would understand it. I know that for a fact because most people don't even understand pieces of it. But it's my thing. MY thing. Judging other people's kinks, or preferences, or a certain look, or a way of life...is tough to do when it's not your thing. So is explaining why we want what we want. It's like trying to explain why we love apple pie to someone that hates it. We love it because it tastes good. They hate it because it tastes bad. Who is right? Well of course, we are because who the hell doesn't love apple pie? Weirdo's.

I used to get far more upset.

That is...until I realized everyone is full of shit and can honestly only speak for themselves. I kind of thought people knew more then I did somehow because there were all these new words and different types of people and I felt like I had missed these HUGE things going on in the world. he he he. Yeah, no one has EVERYTHING figured out. If we really did, we'd be far to busy to be here talking about it.

I think maybe staying away from generalizations helps keep people from getting so defensive. Not all. But some at least. THEN when the defensiveness starts - not reacting to it. The people who get it will get it and those who don't won't. I will sleep fine either way.

Yeah, ME statements ARE great. I agree. I have absolutely no problem with someone saying, "Oh, well, I like sensitive guys, and I've been fortunate to have dated some guys who were sensitive"

Yep, no problem there.

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive. WHY do transguys HAVE to be 'dual gendered' to be sensitive? WHY do they have to be 'put in their place, and reminded of their 'journey' <gag>"?

What is it that's so freakin' difficult to admit that transmen are men, and you (general) happened to have dated a sensitive, nice MAN? Why is it immediately chalked up to his 'woman-side/two spiritedness/dual gender/(assumed) socialization"? I mean, how is that any different than if I were to say, "Mahhh Woman is just so manly when she fixes the car?" Why is it rude to strip Mahhh Woman of her gender/sex when she does something stereotypically 'masculine', but it's perfectly acceptable to not only attribute 'being sensitive' as 'womanly', but also to then strip transmen of their sex/gender? Seriously?! If he cleans up his kitchen before you come over, did he clean it up because of his 'journey'?...his two-spiritedness?...because he 'was a woman once' and got such a good education in cleaning kitchens? Is he stripped of his manhood, once again, because he cleaned the kitchen, or because you (general) have to justify to others in the community that you've dated/are dating a man man man? Do people feel 'less stripped' of their 'queer community card' if they can keep their transman 'part woman'?

We don't date better. If you've been on a date with a guy who held doors for you, FAN-freakin'-tastic...transmen are not better daters or 'more aware'.

Yeah, I agree 100 percent that ME statements are fantastic and would definitely save a lot of this same conversation?


Dylan

[Bob]

First you say this:

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise.

And then you say this:

But saying, "Transmen are just so sensitive", then attributing that sensitivity to their 'woman-side', followed by de-manning them with "It's a two spirit thing" is just beyond offensive.

So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

[Emmy]

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

[Dylan]

First you say this:



And then you say this:



So, you are in fact saying it's okay for YOU to make sweeping generalizations about women/femmes/female-ids, but it's not okay for them to make them about you.

And by the way, this whole going on and on is exactly the sort of feminine 'processing' you appear to decry and reject in your first comment.

I'm wondering if you've missed part of this conversation, because some of the posts from the original thread are missing.

I don't see where, from your examples, I've made any sweeping generalizations about all women/femmes/female-IDs. In the quotes you've pulled, I'm talking to a specific group of people who made comments regarding 'two-spiritedness', 'sensitivity', 'talking about things (i.e. processing)', and a few other stereotypes and 'stereotypically feminine/womanly' notions re: emotions and so on.

The context of my posts obviously did not transfer with The Great Thread Move of SomeMondayInMay, 2010. One is missing a lot by not reading the thread from which this thread spawned.


D

[Dylan]

We’re all a part of this community, presumably, because we feel some kind of resonance with one another, right? Some kind of connection? I think maybe that particular sense of resonance is important, for some people, in order to feel an attraction to another person. Need that, in itself, be a hurtful thing? If not, how does one go about elaborating on the nature of that sense of connection without being hurtful or - I don’t know - romanticizing people in a stifling and offensive sort of way?

I really do appreciate what folks have written here, by the way…

Best,

E

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[Emmy]

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily


Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I fell for a guy, his name is Grant. He did not come with this glass slipper, he did not come with a horse and shiny armor. He came with a kind heart, good intent and the willingness to hand over his life reigns to me. I humbly take them each day and look forward to a life of privacy fences, big black Fresian stallions and his blood on my sheets...

The fact he cooks, cleans, irons, and does laundry is a bonus, nothing to do with hoovey groovieness, not cause he has any form of female energy he does it cause well, it is what is and well cause I say so..

*s*


:barmartini:

[Dylan]

Thank you for your reply. Please do feel free to continue; will be glad to consider and possibly address your points when they are posted in full.

In the meantime, I assume you didn't mean me in particular. A casual reader, however, may conclude otherwise. So, for the record, I haven't done so. (And, in fact, dating men, whether FTMs or not, is no threat to my identity.)

Thank you,

Emily

I'm glad you assumed correctly (you had posited a query, and I was merely answering from my me space)

<insert emoticon of your choice> (unless there's a whatever floats your boat emoticon...in which case insert that one)


And A Smiley Face Here,
Dylan

[adorable]

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

Now we are getting off even the topic of this thread....sigh...but it IS a slow Monday for me.

This I think is part of the problem for me, once person's stereotype is another person's preference. And what if my preference happens to be a stereotype that you find distasteful? You gonna pop up and blast me for stereotyping you?? If I am posting in a thread about MY preferences, why isn't my post a reflection of me instead of you?

What I saw in that other thread that Linus magically made into this thread over here is that key words triggered a response. I GET IT. I do. I know...I see it. I know that plenty of assumptions and generalizations are made about TGs, male IDs and FTMs on the whole, based on who the Hell knows what.
BUT BUT BUT

In a thread where the OP has specifically asked for preferences, it's not possible IMO to really state them without using words that would trigger some sort of response. I didn't go listing off all the things I'd really like for that reason. I KNEW what would happen and how people get about such things. And not you, actually yeah you, lol and the collective you can get all riled when really people are just talking about what they like.

Now I get (trying to come a tad closer to the topic) that there is an idea of dual spirituality or dual gender or some dual whatever people are trying to turn it into so it all makes sense in their head. I see that as their head. And maybe, that is truly their experience with the people they have encountered. I don't know. I think it is fair for ME to say that isn't MY experience. Just as I think it would be fair for you to say that isn't YOUR experience.

I also understand that as much as others complain about chronic silencing for themselves, that truly it's not possible for TGs/FTMs/TRANS/MALE IDs to have a space that is theirs where they can celebrate who they are WHATEVER that means to them individually. What seems to happen is people feel the need to squash the maleness because, well, it's all male and instead of understanding how people feel inside it becomes more about --->WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU WANT TO ALIGN WITH MEN? When in fact, it has nothing at all to do with that.

The question is not "What is wrong with being a woman?" Which is how I read a lot of the things that are said in different threads. What seems to not be heard is that no one is saying there is anything wrong with being a woman. It's just not how everyone FEELS. It is not who they are. And comparing outsides has no bearing at all on insides. It's not a choice that people make. It IS how people are born. It is something that can't be quantified or justified. I think it's awful when who someone IS - is silenced regardless of their ID. The same fight seems to ensue in many of these threads, and it's always sad to me. There is a sense of an underlying threat or this huge misunderstanding that, as I'm reading posts, I feel like I'm the only one that's seeing it...
Both sides are coming from VERY different places and it seems like they just cannot, or will not accept people for their insides.

Just because someone was raised as a girl doesn't make them a girl. They don't have to like it or embrace it. In some cases it's traumatizing. Imagine being born in the wrong body. WHY is it so important for some that to be here, with us, EVERYONE has to be a woman or all happy about it? Why is it that if people are not, then the word misogyny starts popping up all over? Why do they have to be what other people think they have to be in order to belong? I just don't get it.

[apretty]

some of these posts have a tone of female self-subjugation.

[weatherboi]

and fetishlike



some of these posts have a tone of female self-subjugation.

[Emmy]

I agree. One must not undermine another’s identity when describing one’s own attractions. And I certainly see how ascribing ‘feminine’ traits- whatever those may be, exactly- to FTMs (in particular, among men as a whole) is undermining. That’s a really important point and I’m glad this discussion is happening.

What I was wondering about, and perhaps not articulating well, was whether wishing to date or to partner with men who belong to this community, specifically, was necessarily undermining. (Maybe it is, btw- not meant to be a rhetorical question...)

Don't rely on stereotypes to describe your personal attractions?

Don't debase Another's identity to better fit your own identity?


I Had More, But...,
Dylan

[Dylan]

What I was wondering about, and perhaps not articulating well, was whether wishing to date or to partner with men who belong to this community, specifically, was necessarily undermining. (Maybe it is, btw- not meant to be a rhetorical question...)

To me (and speaking only from my me place), I don't see dating people within One's community as undermining anything. Personally, if someone told me they ONLY date FTMs, I have no problem with that either. I wonder how someone would KNOW an FTM on the street from any other man, but...

I (me, me, me) DO wonder is IF and DO folks in this community who date men feel the need to either A) 'hide' that for fear of 'having their community card' taken away or B) constantly ID their partner (in some way) as 'formerly woman' or 'female bodied' for (again) fear of 'having their community card taken away'

I know very well the crap married/formerly married folks, bisexual folks, folks who partner with guys get/have gotten over the years in this community, and I just seriously wonder if this makes some people feel the need to constantly refer to their partner as FTM/trans/etc instead of just 'guy' or 'man'. Like if those people feel maybe they'll get less 'flack' and deal with less 'explaining' if they constantly refer to their partner as 'formerly-woman'.

Honestly, if One is dating only butches and transmen...I have to kind of wonder A) how do you know who's trans and who's not and B) are you seeing transmen as 'really butch women'?


Dylan

[TCB]

This is a great thread. Dylan, I always love your posts-thanks for speaking exactly what I'm thinking at times.

I shall continue to follow this thread....

[betenoire]

If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men? How does this work if one is queer?


Well, I'm Queer. And I am attracted to Butches, FTMs, non-trans-guys, Drew Barrymore, Jack Black, and whoever happens to be providing me with coffee. I am quite open about my bi/pansexuality. (I hate the term pansexual because it has the word "pan" in it - irrationally.) If I weren't married and monogamous now god only knows who I would be with - but I was still dating people who were born with a penis right up until the time I started dating my spouse.

I feel like you're excluding those of us who aren't lesbians from your definition of Queer. I'm not liking it.

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

Nope, sure doesn't.

Mmmm.. You don't need to be attracted to ALL men.. But, if a queer femme is attracted to me, I would want them to be attracted to me as the man I am and always have been, rather then as someone that was a woman and now looks like a man.. you know?


Exactly. What things look like -TO ME- is a whole lot of people are attracted to the FT part of FTM.

Honestly, if One is dating only butches and transmen...I have to kind of wonder A) how do you know who's trans and who's not and B) are you seeing transmen as 'really butch women'?


In the case of some (not all) people B is what I generally suspect. I see it in real life a lot.

I come from a pretty huge city, so I have had the pleasure of being acquainted with a zillion different people. And a really big chunk (we're talking well more than half, here) of the REAL LIFE transmen I know will only date women who -do- date both trans and non-trans men. And these -are- transmen who I met in the Queer community. (I actually don't have any friends who aren't part of the Queer community - because that's who I choose to pal around with.) All I know (and this is in pretty stark contrast to what I see online) is that the majority of my FTM friends feel that it's very important to know that the people they date are attracted to who they ARE and not who they "were" or some journey they supposedly have gone on.

Also - I don't get where people are under the impression that anybody is putting the weight of understanding on the shoulder of Femmes and expecting nobody else to understand anything? Maybe I missed the post that has given people that impression - but it reads as very knee-jerky to me.

[BullDog]

Betenoire, I don't think all queers are lesbians. I don't think all queer femmes are lesbians. There I've said it twice now- this time with a little refinement.

[Martina]

I think it may be a mutual love of grape soda.. But I could be wrong..

Do you know that there is NO DIET GRAPE SODA in California????? i live among barbarians.

[BullDog]

Well, I'm Queer. And I am attracted to Butches, FTMs, non-trans-guys, Drew Barrymore, Jack Black, and whoever happens to be providing me with coffee. I am quite open about my bi/pansexuality. (I hate the term pansexual because it has the word "pan" in it - irrationally.) If I weren't married and monogamous now god only knows who I would be with - but I was still dating people who were born with a penis right up until the time I started dating my spouse.

I feel like you're excluding those of us who aren't lesbians from your definition of Queer. I'm not liking it.



Nope, sure doesn't.



Exactly. What things look like -TO ME- is a whole lot of people are attracted to the FT part of FTM.



In the case of some (not all) people B is what I generally suspect. I see it in real life a lot.

I come from a pretty huge city, so I have had the pleasure of being acquainted with a zillion different people. And a really big chunk (we're talking well more than half, here) of the REAL LIFE transmen I know will only date women who -do- date both trans and non-trans men. And these -are- transmen who I met in the Queer community. (I actually don't have any friends who aren't part of the Queer community - because that's who I choose to pal around with.) All I know (and this is in pretty stark contrast to what I see online) is that the majority of my FTM friends feel that it's very important to know that the people they date are attracted to who they ARE and not who they "were" or some journey they supposedly have gone on.

Also - I don't get where people are under the impression that anybody is putting the weight of understanding on the shoulder of Femmes and expecting nobody else to understand anything? Maybe I missed the post that has given people that impression - but it reads as very knee-jerky to me.

Well, if there are transmen who will only date women who will date both trans and non-transmen, then that's there preference. My first thought is do the women dating them have any rules of their own, like say see me for the queer that I am and not just interchangeable with straight women? Then again, what would I know. I am just a simple lesbian.

[Martina]

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

[Dylan]

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

I agree with almost everything in your post. I purpled the one part, because you misquoted me. I said, "see them as really butch women". 1. Some transguys ID as butch. But 2. It's none of my business what goes on between two people in a relationship.

My question wasn't pertaining to anyone in particular...it's just something I wonder. I don't have any male friends whose partners view them as really butch women...but that doesn't mean I don't know of couples in which a transguy's partner DOES view him as 'formerly female', and I notice very often how ThisPartner will do things to 'put him in his place'. They are very subtle things, but they are there. ThisPartner will occasionally she him, and she'll just say things. So, yeah, I DO wonder. And maybe ThisGuy is squicked and maybe he's not. I don't really know as I don't really talk to these people. But I still wonder. I also wonder many other things.

I also said, "If someone only dates butches and transmen"...meaning (in the shortest form) masculine women and transmen.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Dylan, you make a very big distinction between cis and transmen. That's two different categories of men right? Why would I be seeing all men exactly the same if some are considered trans and some are considered cis?

[betenoire]

Betenoire, I don't think all queers are lesbians. I don't think all queer femmes are lesbians. There I've said it twice now- this time with a little refinement.

I was referring to this statement:

How does this work if one is queer?


"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

My first thought is do the women dating them have any rules of their own, like say see me for the queer that I am and not just interchangeable with straight women? Then again, what would I know. I am just a simple lesbian.

Wow, way to bait. Nobody implied in any fashion that lesbians were too "simple" to understand anything.

And I can assure you that nobody sees me as interchangeable with a straight woman.

[BullDog]

I was referring to this statement:



"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?



Wow, way to bait. Nobody implied in any fashion that lesbians were too "simple" to understand anything.

And I can assure you that nobody sees me as interchangeable with a straight woman.

Well gee Betenoire, you seem to think I don't even know gay men exist and that I think all queers are lesbians. Anyway, I seriously don't think it matters how up to speed or not I am on queer identities in terms of this discussion.

To me it looks like a lot of double standards, but hey if people are happy go for it.

[betenoire]

Well gee Betenoire, you seem to think I don't even know gay men exist and that I think all queers are lesbians. Anyway, I seriously don't think it matters how up to speed or not I am on queer identities in terms of this discussion.

To me it looks like a lot of double standards, but hey if people are happy go for it.

So, when people ask you to clarify a statement you're going to use snark in order to get out of clarifying? Neat.

And of course I know that you know Gay men exist. You said that Bisexual Men tend to hang out in the Gay Male community rather than in the Queer community - so I gathered from that that you were aware of the existence of the Gay Male.

What looks like a lot of double-standards to you, and in which way?

[BullDog]

So, when people ask you to clarify a statement you're going to use snark in order to get out of clarifying? Neat.

And of course I know that you know Gay men exist. You said that Bisexual Men tend to hang out in the Gay Male community rather than in the Queer community - so I gathered from that that you were aware of the existence of the Gay Male.

What looks like a lot of double-standards to you, and in which way?

What was I supposed to clarify? I scrolled up, but not sure.

[betenoire]

What was I supposed to clarify? I scrolled up, but not sure.

And quoting myself:

I was referring to this statement:

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by betenoire View Post
I was referring to this statement:

"How does this (also dating non-trans men) work if one is queer?"

Since you did not mean that it was unqueer to date non-trans men...what -did- you mean, exactly?

I was asking a question, not making a statement. My own view is if someone is queer, they are queer no matter who they date. I don't understand why it's a requirement for someone who might be attracted to transmen and/or FTMs who are part of a queer community to also be obligated- at least theoretically- be willing to date cis men. I seriously don't get it.

As to the double standards, I agree with Martina. This is how it looks to me.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

[AtLast]

Shock of all shocks

Queer does NOT mean lesbian...this is NOT a lesbian community, this is a QUEER community, and QUEER doesn't mean lesbian

I never said anyone is 'supposed to be' attracted to anyone they're not attracted to

I said (basically), don't expect transmen to act a certain way or lump us all together with (gross) stereotypes...there's a big difference between that and what you're saying


You're Mixing My Words And You're Mixing My Words With The Words Of Other Posters,
Dylan



Yup, it is a Queer community, but also one embracing the B-F dynamic. And there are a whole lot of lesbian queers here, too. Butches and femmes.

Nope.... lumping any group of people into neat little stereotypes is not a good idea! When I look at all of the Transmen I know (and I mean, really know), they are all quite unique and sure don't fit into any particular box. Nor do the MtF’s I know. The same goes for all of the different butch-femme, queer folks I know and have met through this very online community. I'm a butch woman who is a lesbian which I see as just one part of the entire queer community. Lesbians don't fall into one category, either. Then we have all of the differing kinds of sexuality within the queer community.

Thinking, however, that I have not seen the numbers of generalizations and stereotypes I have in the B-F community since I was a teenager and straight! I'm 59 now. Why is this community so closed minded and at the same time pretends to aspire to diversity?

I'm thinking, (but do not know this, as I am not a Transperson) that any person on the trans spectrum would want someone to be attracted to them due to their entire persona just like attraction works for all people. I mean the past, present and future promise in a person's experience and growth. Sure, physical appeal (which really is in the eye of the beholder) has to be present, but so do common values, politics, goals.... And the element of magic, yanno, the chemistry that just happens to us all.

I would hope to hell that someone would not do to a Transperson the same that some straight people do in experimenting with queer folks without really caring for them! And, we have all seen star-fucking in action throughout life!

Hummm... are we talking just attraction here, or attraction as it relates to relationship building? Asking because, I know that how I acted on just pure physical attraction in my teens and 20's is a hell of a lot different than when I was older.. and very different now.

I guess I am seeing a difference between the basic fuck-factor and attraction and the fuck-factor plus phenomena concerning attraction. Seems like both would apply to all of us, No?

I still at times find non-Transmen attractive and yes, that means that my ovaries spin just as they do when I am very attracted (for me that means a totality of factors about an individual including the physical) to a woman or a femme (yes, I am attracted to non-femmes, sometimes). Also, I have had attractions to MtF’s and Transmen that are gay men (Sean Dorsey and other FtM’s like him are fine!). Go figure! Humm, to date, I have not been attracted to a Transman that is straight. Or one that identifies as queer as in within the B-F community.

Shit, this is complicated! And… diverse! I hope I didn’t mix anything up with my distinctions! And Heaven forbid, my butch-card could be discredited by admitting different attractions! Again, I speak of how closed ( and really quite conformist) I often view this community to be (which makes me sad).

LOL... I'm cussing, again! I hardly ever swore until I joined the B-F community.... see what ya'll are doing to me! Nah, its all good... really it ALL is good!

[betenoire]

Oh, I see. So even though you put "If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men?" and "How does this work if one is queer?" immediately following each other in the same paragraph (only things that were in that paragraph, in fact) the two questions had nothing to do with each other. You just forgot to hit the enter key between your two separate and completely unrelated thoughts, is all. Got it.

I'm sorry that you cannot see how being attracted to FTMs but not to non-trans men can be hurtful to (some) guys. All men are men. They just are. FTMs are not ex-women, they're men.

[betenoire]

Bitches and femmes.

I love typos. I promise I'm not making fun of you.

Like on the news the other day when the newscaster said "Christless counselors are on the scene" (meaning CRISIS counselors) It killed me a whole lot.

[BullDog]

Oh, I see. So even though you put "If a queer femme is to see trans men exactly as they see non-trans men, then in order to be attracted to a trans man she's supposed to be attracted to all men?" and "How does this work if one is queer?" immediately following each other in the same paragraph (only things that were in that paragraph, in fact) the two questions had nothing to do with each other. You just forgot to hit the enter key between your two separate and completely unrelated thoughts, is all. Got it.

I'm sorry that you cannot see how being attracted to FTMs but not to non-trans men can be hurtful to (some) guys. All men are men. They just are. FTMs are not ex-women, they're men.

No those two sentences go together exactly as I wrote them.

A transman is a man. A cis man is a man. Is there only one type of man? There are lots of different types of women- one type no better than the other. A transwoman is a woman, a butch woman is a woman, a femme woman is a woman, a straight woman is a woman, etc. None are less than or better "women."

[betenoire]

A transman is a man. A cis man is a man. Is there only one type of man? There are lots of different types of women- one type no better than the other. A transwoman is a woman, a butch woman is a woman, a femme woman is a woman, a straight woman is a woman, etc. None are less than or better "women."

You get that being a woman (trans or otherwise) is a sex, and that butch and femme are genders, and that straight is a sexual orientation....right?

butch, femme, straight, queer, artistic, conservative, sporty, aggressive...those are different ways of being a woman. yes.

but transwoman and non-trans woman? those are not two different ways of being a woman. your sex is your sex. period.

[BullDog]

You get that being a woman (trans or otherwise) is a sex, and that butch and femme are genders, and that straight is a sexual orientation....right?

butch, femme, straight, queer, artistic, conservative, sporty, aggressive...those are different ways of being a woman. yes.

but transwoman and non-trans woman? those are not two different ways of being a woman. your sex is your sex. period.

Yes Betenoire, I am perfectly clear on all of that.

People keep talking about man in these discussions when I think they are really talking about male.

Man and woman are gender. Male and female are biological sex.

Edit: actually I think of woman as gender, so I don't agree with the first part of what you said. Female is biological sex, woman is gender.

[Martina]

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

[Dylan]

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me. If someone is attracted to you, even if you aren't to them, that is a compliment, a sweet thing.

If a transguy wants to date women who date cismen, i get it. That's fine. Going out of his way to criticize a woman who is not interested in cismen but may be in him or another transguy -- i don't get it. It's unnecessary.

The implication is that your identity as a man is dependent on, or at least can be affected by, the kind of attention you receive from women or the kind of women you receive attention from.

As a girl, i was certainly taught that my identity as a woman was dependent on the attentions of men, but i outgrew that.

And if I say, "I'm attracted to you, because I see you as a straight woman", am I attracted to YOU or some picture of you I'VE created?

If you keep saying, "Um, I'm not straight", but I keep saying, "Oh yeah, queer, lesbian, straight, whatever"...is that being attracted to YOU or some picture I've created?


Dylan

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

[BullDog]

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

From the other thread:

I know this is unpopular opinion, and it's really none of my business who other people date...but it strikes me as icky when someone will date an FTM but not a non-trans man. Like, TO ME, that insinuates that they don't fully acknowledge their lovers sex/gender.

[Dylan]

From the other thread:

Ok, Bulldog (since you're now speaking for Martina), then why are men being blamed for something Potty said


And Why Are You Speaking For So Many Folks Except The Female Butch Contingency...or yourself?,
Dylan...also wonders why you're specifically avoiding answering Potty's questions to you about your own words, and why you're using deflection by mixing up other people's words

[AtLast]

i like Dylan's original post. The what do you like about transmen thread was blowing my mind. Most transguys i know would have hated most of that stuff. The they understand me better or they have been through so much and are therefore more sensitive. Dylan put it way better than i could summarize. Most transmen i have met do not date femmes. If they like feminine women, they prefer straight or bi women. (i know there are bi femmes.)

However, this stuff can veer toward dissing femmes, which makes me sad. Like Dylan's comment about if someone is dating only transmen, are they just seeing them as really butch butches. Well, what if they DO??? As long as whoever they are dating is fine with it. Seriously, if a transguy is with a queer femme, then he is probably a little more queer identified than the average transguy. He may not be squicked.

i think the queer femmes who ID as transensual or however -- that they prefer to date transguys -- get enormous amounts of shit, some of it blatantly sexist. They are labelled fetishists. They are accused of seeing transmen as other than men. i was told by one transguy that queer femmes are not "real woman" and that a real woman is someone who knows how to be with a man. He felt that if a woman did not like cisgendered men that the fact that she liked him was demeaning to him.

So i appreciate this thread as a corrective to the other one, which i figured HAD to get a reaction at some point. But boy i hate to see this interrogation of the motives of femmes who like transguys.

i do not date transmen. i did for a second. And i realized, hey, these guys are men, and i am a dyke. Not going to work. That's why when Dylan seems to argue for some separate category for transmen, as somehow exempt from accusations of male privilege, i don't get it. i experience transmen as men. That's how it FEELS. That is the effect they have on me.

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

[BullDog]

Ok, Bulldog (since you're now speaking for Martina), then why are men being blamed for something Potty said


And Why Are You Speaking For So Many Folks Except The Female Butch Contingency...or yourself?,
Dylan...also wonders why you're specifically avoiding answering Potty's questions to you about your own words, and why you're using deflection by mixing up other people's words

I'm not speaking for Martina. I agreed with what she said earlier. You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

What precisely am I avoiding answering. I've answered very directly. I am not mixing up anyone's words.

[Dylan]

Yes, what is all this about (in red)? Again, this community seems so closed to me at times. Stereotypes abound!!!

I agree with you & Dylan that the other thread was/is not a very true representation at all. Certainly doesn't jive with what I understand from women I know that are with Transmen. A couple of them have sent me YUCK notes about the thread. And yes, I know others that just could not/can't date Transmen because they are dykes/lesbians as well as identifying as femme.

It is quite sad that this interrogation of a femme's motivation concerning attraction/dating/partnering/marrying a Transman exists here. I'm still looking for all this love of diversity..... Just look at some of the comments about stone sexuality, BDSM, some members being poly, etc......

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

[Dylan]

I'm not speaking for Martina. I agreed with what she said earlier. You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.

What precisely am I avoiding answering. I've answered very directly. I am not mixing up anyone's words.

Martina said a man had said it

It's in her post (which I quoted)


You Didn't Answer Directly...You Backpeddled And Waffled. And Yeah, You Are Mixing Up Other People's Words To Better Fit Some Conversation You WISH Folks Were Having (or something),
Dylan...isn't going to rehash all of Potty's posts again, so we can go around in the inevitable circle of avoidance and deflection

[BullDog]

Martina said a man had said it

It's in her post (which I quoted)


You Didn't Answer Directly...You Backpeddled And Waffled. And Yeah, You Are Mixing Up Other People's Words To Better Fit Some Conversation You WISH Folks Were Having (or something),
Dylan...isn't going to rehash all of Potty's posts again, so we can go around in the inevitable circle of avoidance and deflection

I haven't back peddled, waffled, deflected or avoided anything. Whatever Dylan. The things you are saying about me are absurd. Have your conversation.

[BullDog]

Dylan, you make a very big distinction between cis and transmen. That's two different categories of men right? Why would I be seeing all men exactly the same if some are considered trans and some are considered cis?

Dylan I asked you this question and you never answered. I didn't accuse you of backpeddling, waffling, deflecting or avoiding. I just figured you didn't want to answer it- cuz really you are not obligated.

[betenoire]

The arrogance of anyone being offended because someone is attracted to them amazes me.

To me it doesn't read as though the person is offended by the attraction itself, but what the attraction implies.

You asked where someone had been criticized anyone for not dating non-trans. I provided the quote.


...yeah. That wasn't criticizing. I was simply saying that it doesn't make sense to me. I didn't say that people who date FTMs but won't date a non-trans guy are satanists, kick puppies, have ugly shoes, or are stupid.

There is a difference between questioning and criticism. And also, people are not their actions. I can think a certain practice is distasteful, but that does not necessitate that I think that anybody who engages in said practice is distasteful.

[BullDog]

To me it doesn't read as though the person is offended by the attraction itself, but what the attraction implies.



...yeah. That wasn't criticizing. I was simply saying that it doesn't make sense to me. I didn't say that people who date FTMs but won't date a non-trans guy are satanists, kick puppies, have ugly shoes, or are stupid.

There is a difference between questioning and criticism. And also, people are not their actions. I can think a certain practice is distasteful, but that does not necessitate that I think that anybody who engages in said practice is distasteful.

Ok, thanks.

[Martina]

Also, may I asked who criticized any woman on this site for not dating cismen?

i was responding to some stuff in the bulldog/betenoire interaction. It was implied. i don't know. Too tired to track it down.

Re what you said otherwise, that would be unacceptable. Are a lot of femmes out there insisting that their trans partners or dates are TRANS rather than men? Is that what you are saying? i get lost sometimes with the hypotheticals.

[Martina]

And I'm still wondering if *some* people who date men feel stripped of their 'community ID cards' if they admit they date men and that's why they feel soooooooo compelled to always keep their 'trans'men 'formerly female'


But...,
Dylan

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

[BullDog]

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

Some of the finest men that I am aware of are transmen. I seriously don't get why we are supposed to see all men as exactly the same- as if "man" is some monolithic entity with no variation.

Also, whether someone has transitioned or not has zilch to do with whether they are a man or woman as far as I am concerned. Gender is not biology. Not everyone can afford to transition, others may have health issues, others may not transition by choice, etc.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

Perhaps saying "honoring someone's journey" is too woo woo, but seriously I think all of us here, no matter what our gender and sex are, have genders that we have earned and that we have made our own. Not all of us are transsexed or transgendered, but none of us came built to factory specifications, especially our genders. We didn't just take what was given us at birth and go through life not questioning things. We are who we are because of the personal journeys each one of us has taken. I honor everyone's journey here.

[Dylan]

i was responding to some stuff in the bulldog/betenoire interaction. It was implied. i don't know. Too tired to track it down.

Re what you said otherwise, that would be unacceptable. Are a lot of femmes out there insisting that their trans partners or dates are TRANS rather than men? Is that what you are saying? i get lost sometimes with the hypotheticals.

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

[Martina]

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

Interesting. i can sympathize with some of it. It's not so much fun being invisible, and dating a transguy makes that more invisible. i guess one can find a way of coming out as a queer femme or dyke or whatever one is without mentioning the gender of who you are with.

But in general i am uncomfortable with talking about how femmes are not doing it right somehow. i don't know.

[Dylan]

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.


Dylan

[Martina]

Please notice my wording. I was very specific NOT to limit to 'femmes', because A) it's not my (whole) experience in real time and B) there are a few men who partner with men on this site...there are also a few butches...and I didn't want to leave them out and C) while I said 'partner' there are random butches and even guys who do this too. So, I was very specific not to say 'femmes'...even though it's an assumption that anyone who partners with guys is a femme (and that is totally another thread I'd ben interested in participating in)

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.


It's my understanding, and it's been my understanding that this particular site is a QUEER site which embraces ALL gender/sex IDs. That was how this site was presented to me when I was invited over here.

If the men in this community ID as queer, and this is NOT a women-only space...why then would those men be expected to curtail celebrating their ID? I mean, everyone else on this site is 'allowed' (maybe even expected) to celebrate their ID...but men on this site are told, "It's not the right place"...why is it so limiting to members of this queer community? And I appreciate that you stated, it's not 'my place to moderate a community' (or however you worded it)...I'm just curious.

In my world, it would be fantastic if queer could mean something other than 'women into (some fashion/twist/flavor of) women' on these sites. I mean, seriously, when people's ID of queer is questioned, and it's 'assumed' that the only 'accepted' version of 'queer' is a woman who's into 'some form of woman' (whether that's 'formerly woman' or 'female-bodied' or somesuch) that just gets back to my original idea that *some* people ONLY see transmen as 'former women'.
Dylan

Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

[AtLast]

Thanks for the clarification

I DO see a lot of the insistent 'trans'-ing, and overdoing the "My partner is FTM". Like, instead of just saying, "I'm with a man" or "I dated a guy once", it's "I was with a TRANSguy once..." or "I date a lot of FTMs" etc. Like, it's not sufficient to just say, "I'm with a man" or "I'm with a guy".

In some cases, I get the impression it's a way of outing oneself/queering oneself (and I see this in real time, so that's why I'm wondering if online it's the same reasoning). What I see in real time is this 'Chosen Closet'. Like...today, I want to be in the closet, so I'm with a guy...but tomorrow, when we go to SuchASuchPlace, I want to be outed, so I'm with a TRANNNNNSguy" (said like annoying people who say, "Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadies") instead of just owning that the responsibility is One's own to out themselves. It's kind of like using someone else to do your 'dirty work' (if coming out can be considered 'dirty work')...like (and I'm saying 'like' wayyyy too much), if I out YOU, then I don't have to take responsibility for outing ME. Does that make sense?

And in some cases, I wonder if repeating the TRANSman mantra over and over is some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away...Seeeeeeeeeeeee he's not a man man...he's a TRANNNNNNNSman'...and I wonder this, because I tend to see this particular behavior more online than I do in real time. I don't see the over usage of TRANSman the way I do online. I hear partners just say, "My boyfriend/guy/he/etc". No one in my real time circle of friends over uses trans to the extent I see online.

I don't know if that makes sense, because this conversation in this particular thread is missing a lot, because some posts are missing from the original conversation, and some posts are taken without the context of the original conversation.

And yeah, I've known (of) some people who insist their guy is 'formerly female' or who see their guy as (formerly) female first...then trans. Again, their partner(s) is/are expected to be female when it's convenient and male when it's convenient, but it doesn't seem up to the guy...it's up to the partner and the partner's situation. Again, I have no idea how the actual guy(s) feel about this, because I don't really talk to these people, I just know what I see/hear.


Dylan

You know, as I read this, I have to say that it fits with my experience in terms of Transmen I know in real-time as opposed to online. But, I really don't have a lot of on-line experience overall. The old site (which I no longer participate on) and this one are the only ones I have ever actually joined. I have a FB account, but that is for keeping up with people in my life that don't live near me. there are some people there that I met via this community both on and off-line. Some are trans (both FtM's & MtF's).

I don't hear this continual referral to the used to be a woman in real-time in either the queer or straight (as they prefer to call themselves) couples I do real-time interaction with. Could this just be because I know their history and they know I know their history? Is it related to my not being trans?

Something else I can think of is that by and large it is the FtM's (or MtF's) I know personally that use Transman or just trans to describe themselves except for the 2 I have known since childhood (so they are very much of a different generation than a lot of transpeople here and do mot identify as queer). My inter-gendered, female identified cousin just calls herself a woman, however (again, she is in her mid 70's).

I have had conversations with femmes and dated a few that do bring up dating transmen and unfortunately, they are often negative about this. Which, I guess is why they are dating me perhaps (who knows)! It might be that our community actually has grown in that trans comes up more freely due to more awareness.

It does feel like that online, the trans distinction is often made by femmes. But, it could simply be, again, about awareness and also trying to be inclusive as trans issues are interwoven on the site. And transmen here usually identify themselves as trans in their profile- they don't usually put Man or male in the blank to the left! Probably because this is a B-F queer site.

In terms of outing, I think that is up to the Transperson and how they want to handle it. I would hope that this would be respected. What you say about this being due to some kind of 'Don't Take My Queer Card Away... motivation is quite disturbing and I think goes to the dissing of femmes that date/partner with transmen.

All that being said, I feel like I can't generalize about this because I haven't read every single post on every single thread. Also, I don't know about your experience as a Transman and mine as a butch woman play into it.

Do most transmen want to just be referred to as men and not trans? Do they want their past as a woman to be hidden? It seems that many transmen here want this to be discussed because many know that there could be butches struggling with gender issues that need to feel OK about asking them questions about their experience.

I think I am in a state of puzzlement at the moment.... but this is an interesting discussion, but I am wondering about individual differences among transmen about it all.

I am also wondering about the formerly-female situation and the fact that most transmen have never been female, actually. I am speaking to those that did indeed feel that they were in the wrong body, and always felt/knew they were male. I would think that to be referred to as formally-female here, would be quite disturbing to the individual.

[adorable]

"soooooooooo compelled to keep their transmen 'formerly female'?" -- Is that what you see a lot of femmes doing?

Even if they are, the guys have some say in it. i am just into hearing how femmes are not respecting transguys sufficiently for their maleness.

If you think it's a response to community pressures, i get that. But what role does the guy have? i don't imagine it to be easy for these couples, but why is this all about what the femme needs to do?

What i see on this site -- most of the transmen i know in real life date men -- are women celebrating the maleness of their partners.

What i do agree with you about is that this is probably not a comfortable space for guys to just celebrate being guys. i have seen a few attempts at that and cringed. It was in the trans zone, so i was like, not my business. But i personally do not enjoy witnessing men celebrating their man-ness or whatever. In a way that's too bad. But i am a dyke and a woman of my generation. That doesn't mean my reaction ought to affect how community works. But i am sure that others might pick up on it, even unexpressed.

We all should be able to shiver with pleasure and say, oooo, how wonderful am i. But it's sort of a select audience one does that with. i am femme, and i get squicked by the very conventional femmes and butches celebrating their very conventional gender play on here. But i assume this is the place for it. i am not sure that this is the place for men to be celebrating being men. Maybe it is. If it is, i guess it's up to me to ignore it or deal, just as i do with the heteronormative butch-femme stuff i sometimes have issues with

I love the honesty in this statement. And to me this is what the thread is about. Why can men not celebrate being men? What is it that squicks you?

I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change.

What I know for sure as a woman that when I'm in public with my guy SOCIETY sees us as queer. We are not given straight privilege. Our experiences in the world are no different then the other Femme-Butch dynamic couples. I also know that the world doesn't see him as a man and that he sure can't celebrate his maleness out there either. Some Male IDs, FTMs, TGs and Trans can pass as men so can some butches. Some can all the time and some not.

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

[adorable]

I thought this was interesting.

http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/resistance_to_loving_transgender_people_is_bogus


And I thought this was really interesting too. It is more of a book review but it states some of the things that I have heard very well.

http://veganideal.org/content/our-bodies-and-lives-transphobic-trauma-transsexual-healing

[Martina]

What is it about being a man that makes people so uncomfortable? Why do we feel compelled as a community to silence that? In the gay male community it doesn't seem to be that way from what I've seen online and in real time.

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* happen to Own 2 guys, Nico and Grant. I don't see them as this brand spanking new version of *man* they are who they are, both with different journeys, stories and backgrounds. They are both members of our Queer community, be it here at home, or here on the interwebs. I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).

We don't face any problem regarding our Queerdom around town, or at any functions or any of the places we frequent. I do feel that maybe just maybe I sense a lil misandry going on just a touch. I hope that at least one will come in here and speak of his place and his right to be in this community. Nico does not have the allowance since when we talk about it here at home his head wants to explode so I would rather it not explode here and him get put in the corner THEN have to deal with me, which is by far worse.

*I* this is me speaking from my me space, feel it to be oogy when expectations are put on these guys by ANYONE so when I see a post about glass slippers, and dual spirituality and how they are so sensitive cause they were women at one time... It oogs me out when I see it done to butches as well, cause lemme tell you, both my guys are sensitive, I AM NOT does this make me a guy? No... Both my guys clean, cook and make things comfy for me.. Does this make them female like? No... Both my guys are not the stereotypical masculines, I on the other hand for a girl am... That kind of fethisizing is creepy and just sets one up for failure...

*I* don't limit myself to a specific kind of person to date, I like to date and fuck whomever I am attracted to that falls into our beautiful gender spectrum. Happens to be that I fell for a guy. I don't feel that this does not leave me a space here in BF Planet though I never really fell into the umbrella of butch femme relationships. I found and find them to be to stiffling for *me* though it does work for others!!

*I* also get twitchy when I see men refered to as creepy crawlers and other names, here's why. I am a mother of 3 men, and frankly not all men regardless if they are queer, straight, gay, bi have faults, just as we do, not ALL men are going to be knuckle draggers, just as not all women fit into the whole *stepford* picture perfect kinda thang. I hope I really do that we can all agree that there is a place for the men in our community, and if they choose to have a thread where they go say whatever well we can either go read it and A. ignore it B. read it and start a thread discussing what is going on without being ugly and C. just be appreciative we have somewhere to go online

That is all I have a carpet to clean.

[adorable]

Largely it's the sexism that is inherent in the construction of the identity. That has been a large part of the construction of masculinity in this culture. Most of my roommates have been gay men, and i have heard more cock jokes and seen more cock than i would like. Not offended. Their masculinity was constructed and evolved in THEIR adolescence, which is long past. To the extent that it was constructed in opposition to femininity, as a repudiation of it, that work been done. i know there is sexism in the gay community, but i don't FEEL it because it's mostly between them.

And in our community, even when a particular expression of maleness may NOT be sexist or misogynistic, it may resemble expressions that were, ones that i as a woman have experienced as damaging. So much depends on intent, and how are we to know that if we don't know the person.

i am not interested in it. If the person is a friend, if i know him well, if i KNOW the particular meanings that are part of HIS being and experience, then it does not resonate. It does not remind. It IS a celebration.

Otherwise, it's something i do not have to endure anymore. i work with adolescent boys. i like them. Most of my friends are straight men. i like men.

i have talked to friends through transition, friends who celebrated every change, every body alteration. i was happy for them. But, again, they were friends. i knew the meaning for them.

i am not interested in hearing the kind of pseudo-adolescent celebration of personal maleness or masculinity that sometimes goes on. i do not find it fun or amusing or endearing UNLESS it's a friend.

And in a stranger, certain expressions can resonate as aggressive, offensive, and demeaning to women. i have lived my LIFE making myself free from that.

Again, thank you for explaining this. I understand what you're saying.

I wonder if there is a difference when female ID'd butches do the same thing? I have seen that in real time. (And I know exactly what you mean about the adolecent celebration - I find that annoying too.)

I also wonder if that is what celebration is really about? Hopefully someone can describe it better then I, as a woman, ever could.

For me I see differences in gender. I don't see them as bad or good, just that they are. They are generalizations that apply to men and women. Not ALL men and women, but the majority - which is why the generalizations exist.

Maybe the emasculation of Trans, male IDs, TGs and FTMs comes from that sense of having been wronged by a male dominated society in general? (sorry, I am thinking and typing at the same time so it may not make sense outside of my head.) I know that I was personally harmed by cis men. Badly. Beaten, raped, abused, kept from being promoted, ect. Yet, I don't hold those who were born in the wrong body responsible for what happened to me. Friend or not. I don't see them differently because of my personal experience with cis men. In fact I don't hold cis men in general responsible for what happened to me by other cis men.

Can trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs be feminists? Is that at all apart of what sometimes happens with embracing maleness within our community? The expectation seems to be that in order to be a feminist one has to BE a woman, or happy about the fact that they were born a woman. Are feminist and Trans incongruant? Can women in our community tolerate trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs only on the periphery? Is there a sense that being trans/male IDs/TGs/FTMs is a choice that people make thereby chosing to align with the "other" or "opposing" team?

I don't really have the answers to these questions, but if I were sitting in a room with all of you I would be interested in having a discussion about all of these things. I do think about it often. And I know we see it play out right in front of us.

[Dylan]

Dylan, you were talking about women who were somehow afraid they'd lose their queer card. Two men are not going to have to worry about that.

On this particular site (and on the other site), and in this particular community, butches and men who partner with men or male-id'd butches DO 'lose their queer cards'. There is rampant homophobia, transphobia, and bi-phobia all over both of these sites. I have been told (on the other site) that I don't exist, because butches ONLY partner with femmes and/or women. I've heard many times that it's 'gross' when butches are into butches or men. I have seen whole posts that just contain line after line of 'Ewwwwwwwwwww'.

So, seriously, I was speaking across the spectrum. Again, queer is NOT just for women anymore


Dylan, it is not a women only space, and i gather the other site never was. No one expects that this should be. i agree that it would be a better if men here could celebrate themselves and their lives freely. But i personally would not want to participate in those moments. That doesn't mean they shouldn't happen.

Here is a stereotype to get you irritated. i find that some transmen when celebrating their gender ID's are sometimes a lot more sexist than cismen. i do not know why that is. But it has sometimes been my experience. i really don't need a celebration of self that includes sexism. We get a lot of it anyway. i can live without more. But my preferences are not the issue.

I get that you personally don't want to see it. That's fair enough. There's lots of things I personally don't want to see on this site. That's why I don't go into certain threads. I mean, if I go into a thread that I KNOW KNOW KNOW is going to squick me out, and I see something that squicks me out, I really have no one to blame but myself. I appreciate your honesty.

I get that your experience is different than mine. In my (me,me,me) personal experience, I have found the MOST sexist comments to have come from female ID'd butches who then use the excuse, "What? We're all women". That has been in real time as well as on these sites. I've found these comments even far more sexist than the comments made around me when I worked with roofers all day. So, we each have our own experiences...it doesn't squick me out when I see butches celebrating their butchness though. I mean, yeah, the sexist comments piss me off, but I don't find it inherent in butches celebrating their masculinity or butchness. I find it inherent in certain individuals.


Dylan

[Thinker]

I love the honesty in this statement. And to me this is what the thread is about. Why can men not celebrate being men? What is it that squicks you?

I bet a ton of money (ok, well really $5) that there are lots of TGs, male IDs, Trans, FTMs watching this conversation and wanting to say something but they just don't dare. I hope that will change.

I can actually appreciate and respect what Martina is saying. I think she and a whole lot of other people see the b/f sites as *primarily* (not *soley*, but primarily) spaces for queer and/or lesbian females. I also hear her saying that she gets there is room here for "celebrations of men-being-men" and that she just doesn't want to join in those celebrations.

I can respect that.

In my experiences, men pretty much celebrate being men in a vast majority of spaces in all of the world. A lesbian ID'd female (woman?) doesn't necessarily want to come to a queer site with a focus on queer/lesbian females and sit right in the middle of it there too.

I'm grateful there *is* room here for all of us. It doesn't offend me that some members choose to steer clear of the trans zone (or whatever). It's nice to have the choice, I think.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[Dylan]

I don't see cis men as the be-all and end-all of man. I don't understand why some transmen would hold cis men up as the measuring stick of man and think they were being thought of us as less than if people don't see them exactly the same as cis men. I seriously don't get it. I don't think all transmen do this, but it seems that some do.

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.

If I was going to date a a transwoman who was a femme (because femmes is who I date) or I have a friend who is a transwoman, am I supposed to just completely ignore her past, her childhood, what she has gone through in her life? Just because I know and acknowledge that she was born male doesn't mean I don't see her as a woman.

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

[BullDog]

i didn't see ANY guy on this site holding a measuring stick to cismen. Again, what I DO see is an overcompensation of identifying the men on this site as TRANS. People don't just say, "He's a man"...they point out that he's a TRANSman. When honestly, it would probably A) be assumed any man on this site is trans and B) we've all interacted together for how long now? Some of us have been here for over ten years...I think we ALL know the men in our community.

Also, I never said (nor did I see where anyone else said this) that the men in this community are thought of as less than if they're not seen as cis. I DID say this 'watering down' of the men in this community is offensive and erasing. And AGAIN by watering down, I mean the constant referrals to 'formerly woman' and the attributing of certain characteristics as 'woman' or 'female' (i.e. 'processing', 'sensitivity', etc) which than heralds back to 'formerly woman' or 'two-spiritedness'. Yet, this same type of behavior is NOT done when folks talk about cismen. When people start going on about how they know lots of men, and 'I don't hate men...some of my best friends are men', and 'I don't hate men...I have a brother/father/grandfather/son/etc' they rarely (and I mean, I've ONLY seen it ONCE) talk about how their 'father/grandfather/son/brother/bestie/etc' is 'two-spirited' or 'dual gendered' or 'formerly woman' or any other somesuch. The father/grandfather/brother/son is just a sensitive, nice guy. NO watering down of male in an effort to acknowledge 'female'. When cis men are talked about, their attributes are NOT given 'womanly/female' connotations/overtures. They are just sensitive men. Or men with a sensitive side. These fathers/grandfathers/sons/brothers etc are NEVER referenced as CIS either. They're just called men. Except in certain contexts (like this particular conversation), people don't say, "My brother is a cisman, and he's sensitive...he's so two-spirited, and it's just so reminiscent of his woman-side, because being sensitive is so womanly". But again, when men in this community are talked about, they are TRANSmen (they HAVE to be signified as some sort of 'formerly woman'...VERY rarely [and in fact, I honestly can't think of one example, but I hesitate to say 'never']) are they referred to as simply 'men', and IF they're sensitive/do anything deemed stereotypically 'feminine' (which according to some ALL transmen are sensitive by nature), that sensitivity is chalked up to their 'womanly' past or some other aspect of their 'journey' (which was always 'difficult', btw...why their 'journey' is always some 'difficult' undertaking [as if any cisperson would know about anyone's trans'journey'] is beyond me). Their 'sensitivity' is chalked up to their 'experience', and all of the sudden, they're not MEN, now they're two-spirits, or 'dual gendered' or someother somesuch.

You call yourself a butch woman. How do you like it when people strip you of 'woman' or 'female' because you do something considered 'stereotypically male' and instead of being a butch woman, you're now 'two spirited' because you did something 'male' or 'masculine'? How about if I take away butch, because you did something 'feminine'? It's the same principle. I'm not 'less man' or 'formerly female' or 'two-spirited' just because I happen to do something sensitive.



If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

Are you assuming all transwomen/transmen have the same history/background/journey? Because that's what it sounds like. And honestly, that's part of the issue I'm having with this whole 'journey' bullshit. My past, childhood, etc is not the same as anyone else's. It's not a picture of Transdom. Assuming everyone's 'journey' is sooooo painstakingly 'difficult' (transmen don't need anyone's pity because of their 'difficult journeys'), or is the same as Joe's, Mary's, and Bob's because we're all trans is...offensive. You (general) don't know my 'journey' any more than I know Billy's 'journey' or Bo's 'journey'. Assuming all transpeople have been socialized as their assigned at birth sex is also offensive. Some of us weren't. I see this a lot all over this site too. 'The journey', 'The Journey'....Celebrate your 'journey'. STFU about my 'journey'...celebrate your own damned 'journey'. My journey is NOT yours to make assumptions about, or pontificate about, or discuss, or any other somesuch. (not speaking to YOU in particular, Bulldog)


Dylan

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

[adorable]

Dylan, of all people you are the one who talks about trans and cis all the time and makes that big distinction, so I am confused about you now saying don't call people trans.

I was totally confused when you objected to someone being referred to as sensitive. To me that's a compliment (except when people accuse you of being over sensitive- as in too emotional or too easily offended). I think both men and women can be sensitive. I don't take that as a dis.

Understanding someone's journey is precisely about getting to know someone is about. My example was if I was dating someone or getting to know a friend. I have no idea how the hell that would be generalizing someone. I said the total opposite.

As far as watering down men. I don't think it's offensive to be a female/woman or a former female/woman, so really I can't relate at all to what you are saying.

If transmen want me to think and treat them exactly the same as cismen I can easily do that. I don't give most cismen any thought or any of my energy. If you need to know why -----> Sexism. It's a man's world.

If I can disengage you and Dylan for a moment - I realize you two hate to be interrupted...

I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you.

I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard.

[Dylan]

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

[BullDog]

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have to ask cause I am taking a break and I am curious..

What would happen if a guy went into a FIB thread and started this sort of dialogue?

What would be the response would they be welcomed?

I truly am curios here..:o

[BullDog]

If I can disengage you and Dylan for a moment - I realize you two hate to be interrupted...

I would like to know honestly more about what the highlighted part means to you.

I do think that alot of people are coming from the same place you are bulldog and in order for us all to understand each other we need to listen without defending and speak without offending - I am trying myself to do this in the hopes that this thread doesn't turn into a shouting match where no one is heard.

Adorable I'm not really sure how to elaborate any further. There are some individual men that I know that are nice people. Beyond that I don't give much attention or my energy to men in general.

[adorable]

Bulldog, I swear sometimes, I wonder why I continue to engage with you when it continually seems like you don't read my posts at all. It seems like you just glance over them, pick out a few words, and fill in the blanks with a conversation you'd LIKE to have.


Jus' Sayin',
Dylan

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

And yet......

It would be fanfreakingtastic if we could have a discussion where you two DIDN'T feel the need to do this. Whatever the hell "this" is...

[BullDog]

By all means have your conversation. Enjoy.

[Dylan]

Dylan, I feel the same about you. You don't appear to read my posts and I feel like you just play gotcha games with me. Maybe it's just a communication gap. Shrug.

There's no 'gotcha game', Bulldog

I assume your questions are in an attempt for clarification/knowledge

When I answer your questions, you start a defensive line of 'no I didn't' (when no one said you did) instead of just listening.

I mean, why come into two trans threads now to talk about how you didn't say anything? Why ask questions in the Trans Zone if you're not going to listen to the answers? What's the point of that? Because the only point I can see is to start something.


Dylan

[adorable]

Adorable I'm not really sure how to elaborate any further. There are some individual men that I know that are nice people. Beyond that I don't give much attention or my energy to men in general.


Do you feel like in any way that this has to do with how you see trans, male IDs, FTMs or TGs?

I am not wording it well but I know what I mean. UGH.

Does your choice of not giving attention to men in general at all conflict with you in your associations with trans, male IDs, ftms, or TGs? Do you personally see it as a choice they are making?

[The_Lady_Snow]

By all means have your conversation. Enjoy.

:|

I guess this answers my questions..

With all due respect Bulldog, I was merely curious, and no ill intent was behind my question, matter of fact I asked what I know is a question a couple people wanted to ask

I just ask cause well I am curious and I am not scared nor intimated into not asking difficult questions.

No one asked you to leave.. Just clarifying that as well.

[BullDog]

There's no 'gotcha game', Bulldog

I assume your questions are in an attempt for clarification/knowledge

When I answer your questions, you start a defensive line of 'no I didn't' (when no one said you did) instead of just listening.

I mean, why come into two trans threads now to talk about how you didn't say anything? Why ask questions in the Trans Zone if you're not going to listen to the answers? What's the point of that? Because the only point I can see is to start something.


Dylan

Dylan, I am not being the slightest bit defensive. I never said I didn't say anything- that actually doesn't make sense. I think this is derailing the conversation. So please enjoy your conversation. I am taking a bow- and no I am not "quitting" or leaving in a huff. Enjoy your conversation.

[BullDog]

:|

I guess this answers my questions..

With all due respect Bulldog, I was merely curious, and no ill intent was behind my question, matter of fact I asked what I know is a question a couple people wanted to ask

I just ask cause well I am curious and I am not scared nor intimated into not asking difficult questions.

No one asked you to leave.. Just clarifying that as well.

No I understand. No offense taken. I think the dialogue between me and Dylan is not productive and is derailing. I will read the upcoming convo.

[Jett]

It is a queer site, it is very welcoming to all kinds of genders and sexes... but it is a Butch Femme queer site which by it's very nature (nobody jump me I'm not saying "natural") is female and lesbian orientated and historical roots is based in women's history. That's just a reality and not someone's attempt trying to keep anybody out... I personally think we're a very open site.

Who belongs here? Anyone who feels like they belong here and feel a connection to these things in what-ever way.

That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Anyway I don't see why people in some instances seeing a difference whatever as that may be as their experience (though I don't agree with generalizations) as a big problem.

I've heard a couple transmen (agreed not many want anything to do with it) have expressed they feel they "get" women more, and they honor and value much of the part of their lives before transition, and I don't think that makes them any less as men... that may also be how some people view a difference between some transmen and men who aren't trans.

Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships? Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care? If he does, shouldn't he be the one to deal with it? I think when someone paints these scenarios as some femme who doesn't see her guy as a real man and he just folds to it, it makes it real hard for them BOTH all around because your putting your spin on their relationship.

Also you started this up with, transmen aren't some duality of genders and anymore sensitive than whatever, I agree most seem to feel that way... but to go on to drag all kinds of people into the mud, femmes who've experienced transman as more sensitive is inferring somehow they're not real men, questioning the motives of couples who've referred to each other in a way that Dylan doesn't like, then the whole B-F community cause maybe it's their fault for putting the screws to trans couples and pulling queer cards (really?), and female ID's are the most sexist talking people around (worse than roofers even).

This is all off the top of my head and sure talk about anybody you want however you want but then you want to complain about generalizations?

Anyway I know transmen who want to be recognized as transmen, who make a distinction between between themselves, experiences and feelings and men who aren't of a trans experience.

I just feel like if you want people to call you a man, that's fine, scream it from the rooftops, but I don't think it's necessary to make it out that this community just doesn't respect transmen... all transmen are different (just like the rest of us human beings) and I don't think we should start referring to anyone by just one person's personal preferences.

Transmen are a piece of this community, and should be respected as such but it works both ways and the community, femmes, butches of any ID, no one should be dragged through the mud to make a point anymore than they should. Whether you think you are doing that... I'm just saying what it looks like too me.

And, personal level... I never have responded well to people going around in demanding tone that I respect their "man-ness". Again personal level, I have respect for transmen, men, males... just not just that scenario. That tends to just get a "get over you bad self" reaction from me. How about if I just call you Dylan and think of you as male... cause that's what I usually do with guys here who have a transition experience.

Metropolis

An add... "formerly female"? Never ever seen that to sum up transmen... could have missed it, who knows... I agree it would seem disrespectful depending on the context.

And, Snow... I know that was to Bull, but in my experience I've never ever started a thread about FIB where males of whatever ID trans included didn't come in with their "pov".... many times in droves.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thank you for your kind response Met!



oh and I did not address Bulldog directly.

*I* asked a question to all... not just her

[betenoire]

I do think (and see) that there is some weird system in place where whenever people are talking about identity x people from identity y tend to take all the talk about identity x as a personal affront to identity y.

In fact, I have had more than one person pm me to say that they feel like every time they try to honour people from identity x that people from identity y take that as some sort of an insult or a dig. When in reality the two aren't related in any way at all. I can give respect to identity x all I want, and resent the implication that my respect for identity x is a presumed dislike of identity y. That's simply not the case.

And before anybody thinks that I'm talking about them personally - I'm not. I've heard/seen it both ways. The males on this site think they're being dissed when people talk about how awesome the females are, thin people think they're being dissed when people talk about how awesome fat people are, Conservatives think they're being dissed when Democrats talk about how proud they are to be Democrats. It's really very silly.

I get that sometimes people DO put a "what I am is awesome because what I am is not what you are" spin on celebrating who they are. But that is not always the case. In fact, I would wager that that is frequently NOT the case.

When Dylan (for example) says that he does not want to be viewed as female, formerly-female, female-ish, reminiscent of female, female with facial hair, etc....he is not saying that female is bad. He's simply saying that he is not female by any stretch of the imagination. If he is offended by being seen as some sort of female - it's not because he thinks that female is bad...it's simply because he's not female. It's because the person isn't seeing HIM but rather seeing the version of him that they would prefer to see. Get it?

If this were another thread and I was to say that "Big Is Beautiful" that does not imply that I think that thin is grody. It just doesn't.

[Dylan]

but it is a Butch Femme queer site which by it's very nature (nobody jump me I'm not saying "natural") is female and lesbian orientated and historical roots is based in women's history. That's just a reality and not someone's attempt trying to keep anybody out... I personally think we're a very open site.

You and I have disagreed on this before, and we'll continue to disagree on this. Butch-femme culture is NOT lesbian/female only. It never has been.


That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Firstly, I'm wondering why you're speaking for femmes. And this is something I often wonder. There are a number of femmes participating in this thread, and with the exception of Adorable, they've all laid into me at one time or another. I don't think they need you or Bulldog to protect them from me. IF a femme feels anyway, I'm sure she/he/per is quite able to speak up.

Secondly, I never said it was a 'just femme' thing or only femmes do this or that. It's been inferred and/or assumed by others that I said that, but I didn't. I've even clarified that two or three times so far.

Thirdly, part of the issue I'm having is WHY some people might wonder why there's a man on this site. AGAIN, WHY does a transman *have* to identify himself (or be identified by someone else) as TRANS? This is a QUEER community. QUEER doesn't mean 'women only'. BF doesn't mean 'women only'. There are queer men on this site. WHY is it so threatening (that people would 'wonder') why there's a man here? Following through with this line of reasoning...why is it 'safer' if it's a TRANSman as opposed to another man?

You just said, you don't know of any cismen on this site...so then, why do transmen ALWAYS have to ID as TRANS first?



Anyway I don't see why people in some instances seeing a difference whatever as that may be as their experience (though I don't agree with generalizations) as a big problem.

It's funny that a couple/few weeks ago, in the Men With Boobs thread when I stated I thought the conversation of what Cynthia Nixon had to say was not worth having, you came in and put me in my place about me weighing in on determining what is and isn't important to butches. I can pull the post if you want me to. You don't even know if I identify as butch or not, yet you felt compelled to tell me it wasn't MY place to determine what an important conversation is to butches.

Yet here you are determining what is and isn't a 'big problem' for transmen.

How does that work, Met? No one gets to speak for butches, and men don't get to speak for femmes, but met gets to speak for butches, transfolk, men, and femmes.

I've laid out what the problem is...but you want to defend people's right to erase others.

I've heard a couple transmen (agreed not many want anything to do with it) have expressed they feel they "get" women more, and they honor and value much of the part of their lives before transition, and I don't think that makes them any less as men... that may also be how some people view a difference between some transmen and men who aren't trans.

Great if some transmen feel that way. I certainly don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is people basing ALL of Transdom on what a 'couple' transmen have to say about how they feel.

Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships?
I don't...I've stated that plenty of times in this thread, and the thread that sparked this conversation

Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care?
I don't. I'm commenting in the same fashion that you're commenting on what you've experienced. And I'm wondering about some things. I wonder about a lot of things, Met. Again, I've stated that numerous times

[QUOTE]Also you started this up with, transmen aren't some duality of genders and anymore sensitive than whatever, I agree most seem to feel that way... but to go on to drag all kinds of people into the mud, femmes who've experienced transman as more sensitive is inferring somehow they're not real men,
Um, I have no issue with One's PERSONAL experience. Again, I've stated that numerous times. If One has encountered sensitive transguys, fanfuckingtastic! Let the skies part and angels blow trumpets...yippee.

My problem lies (again, as I've stated about a bajillion times now), when those personally experienced attributes get chalked up to ALL transmen as though they're inherent characteristics. You know, just like you get a little pissy when someone says, "Butches are just men with boobs"

And yeah, when that generalization of (let's say) sensitivity gets linked to being a 'feminine/woman' trait, and transmen are then told that because it's a feminine/woman trait, it must link back to their special knowledge of women and being a woman, and now that men's IDs as men are erased, and they're referred to as 'two-spirited'...I have a problem with that. I just wanted to repeat it one more fucking time, because apparently typing it out 100 times isn't a good enough explanation. It's still going to get misconstrued. It's funny that you tell me I'm dragging all of this out and repeating it 100 times, yet it still seems you haven't even read it once.

And unless you think it's ok to say something like, "I see butches as male, because they're so masculine, and being masculine is a male thing"...I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.

questioning the motives of couples who've referred to each other in a way that Dylan doesn't like, then the whole B-F community cause maybe it's their fault for putting the screws to trans couples and pulling queer cards (really?), and female ID's are the most sexist talking people around (worse than roofers even).

I didn't 'question' anyone's motives, Met. That's a little melodramatic, no? I *wondered* something. Same as you wonder things.

And yeah, Met...'pulling queer cards' happens. It happens to those who partner with transguys. It happens to butches who date men. It happens to those who've been married. It happens to lots of people, Met. If it's not YOUR personal experience, then it's not. But yeah, Met it happens. It's happened to my current partner and my previous partner on these sites. It's happened to friends of mine on these sites. And I've heard it too. So really, I don't even understand why you're arguing someone else's personal experience. Others in this and previous threads have stated the same thing. IT'S AN ISSUE, even if it's not an issue for you personally. Same as he-ing all butches is an issue.

And yes, in my personal experience (as I stated earlier), I have experienced the most sexist comments coming from FIBs. Sorry if that bothers you, but yeah, it's true. I've said it numerous times throughout numerous threads. I've even started threads about it. The first one I started was YEARS ago. So, yeah, it's my personal experience.

Anyway I know transmen who want to be recognized as transmen, who make a distinction between between themselves, experiences and feelings and men who aren't of a trans experience.

Great. Me too! What's your point?

I just feel like if you want people to call you a man, that's fine, scream it from the rooftops, but I don't think it's necessary to make it out that this community just doesn't respect transmen... all transmen are different (just like the rest of us human beings) and I don't think we should start referring to anyone by just one person's personal preferences.

Make it out like this community doesn't respect transmen? Ahhh, yes, because calling out some equals calling out a whole community. Also, why is calling out an ism/phobia considered a bad thing, Met? Why is that.

And this isn't about me, Met. This isn't 'just one person's personal...'. Others have stated the same thing...which started this whole particular conversation in the first place.

Also, being that you're not a man or a transman, I don't understand why you think you get to weigh in on it. I mean, lest we forget, even though you don't know if I ID as butch or not, you've decided I'm not allow to weigh in on Cynthia Nixon or her commentary on Men With Boobs. So, again, what's with the almighty double standard?


Pardon The Formatting, I'm Too Busy To Fix It,
Dylan

[Thinker]

If you're dating someone, it's up to you and that person to work out your boundaries.

And that's the bottom line, in my opinion.

I can say "I don't want someone to be attracted to me because I don't have 'male' marked on my birth certificate" until I turn purple, but the fact of the matter is that there *are* people out there who are attracted to transmen (or whichever identifier you choose) primarily because they have transitioned.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with transmen simply because they fell for a really great man. And oh. He has this unique history.....completely inconsequential.

Just like there are people out there who are currently involved with women who are trilingual *solely* because being trilingual is a HUGE ASS turn-on to them.

Or what-have-you...

We are attracted to who/what we are attracted to and for our own sets of reasons, and no amount of reasoning/explaining/theorizing/etc... is going to change that for someone else. So if it's not in your own backyard, why would you concern yourself with it?

There are a *lot* of people out there who see transmen as TRANS MEN. A lot. Honestly, I'm not interested in changing their minds. I'd be interested in sharing who I am with them........maybe share my story......maybe not. But at the end of the day, I'm going to move on because there are just too many bigger things to worry about.

Am I off topic?

[betenoire]

Am I off topic?

No, you're not off topic. :)

[adorable]

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

[Jett]

..............
Also, being that you're not a man or a transman, I don't understand why you think you get to weigh in on it. I mean, lest we forget, even though you don't know if I ID as butch or not, you've decided I'm not allow to weigh in on Cynthia Nixon or her commentary on Men With Boobs. So, again, what's with the almighty double standard?


Pardon The Formatting, I'm Too Busy To Fix It,
Dylan
Oh cripes Dylan. As far as weighing in, I didn't weigh in AS a transman or even AS a (insert identity of choice here), but as a community member which you yourself brought "the community" into the conversation with your comments about the community.

This last paragraph by you I've quoted is a good enough example to me that you would rather dismantle and put you're add ons and spin to what I've said rather than to the conversation at hand... which is not about me Dylan.

What I said, it's all there for people to read decide for themselves what my message was... or they can agree with you... they can also check out the men with boobs conversation and see what I actually said.

I choose to leave it as it all stands as it speaks for itself... if you want to tell everybody what I meant and what I do that's your thing.

I'm sure you have a lot of valid things to say Dylan but sometimes it gets lost in the (apparently looks like to me) personal stuff.

Metro

[apretty]

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

[little man]

could someone please give me the brief rundown on the topic again?

i'm diggin' on reading everyone's POV, but have lost the original intent.

please and thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This is where it gets icky for me and I bounce out of the convo.. I watch this and *remember* the beginning of what started a rush fire of label and gender threads. I think that is AWESOME, but now with all this and all this finger pointing on who is more welcomed here than whom I must say it's yucky. I can't understand why there can not be a conversation in a queer space without it turning into what is going on here.

Can't just everyone have space here?

I am truly curious cause I can't see how we want the straights to accept us when we can't even fucking be nice to one another.. That means all of us...

[Dylan]

I would like to say that I am not a femme, I don't ID that way and I wonder where that assumption comes from?

Mahhh Bad

I apologize for the mis-identifying

That'll teach me to assume (for now)


Dylan

[Dylan]

could someone please give me the brief rundown on the topic again?

i'm diggin' on reading everyone's POV, but have lost the original intent.

please and thanks.

Expectations that are put on transmen that may stem from stereotypes (i.e. transmen are more sensitive/caring/processy/in tune with women, because "they were once women")

And

The 'expectation' that transmen keep one foot in the 'formerly female' (i.e. by constantly making the distinction of TRANSman instead of just saying man)



Dylan...that's the briefest I could do

[Martina]

I am perturbed at the fact that someone would say that it squicks them out for them to go into a forum that has been spaced out for them, into a thread that is spaced out for them and for them to thump their chests if they so please (with permission of course).


i would not go into a chest thumping thread in the trans zone and be squicked or criticize. There are such threads. i don't read them. i personally have no problem with their being there.

But let's say there was a lot chest thumping all over the place -- by whatever gender. That would alter my experience of the site. i would be less interested in it. Unless i am acquainted with the chest thumper, that stuff is sometimes triggering to me.

i don't want to experience that OR make the other person feel bad.

[Martina]

i just wanted to quote this because i really appreciated it. Thanks!

I can actually appreciate and respect what Martina is saying. I think she and a whole lot of other people see the b/f sites as *primarily* (not *soley*, but primarily) spaces for queer and/or lesbian females. I also hear her saying that she gets there is room here for "celebrations of men-being-men" and that she just doesn't want to join in those celebrations.

I can respect that.

In my experiences, men pretty much celebrate being men in a vast majority of spaces in all of the world. A lesbian ID'd female (woman?) doesn't necessarily want to come to a queer site with a focus on queer/lesbian females and sit right in the middle of it there too.

I'm grateful there *is* room here for all of us. It doesn't offend me that some members choose to steer clear of the trans zone (or whatever). It's nice to have the choice, I think.

Respectfully,
Thinker

[little man]

Expectations that are put on transmen that may stem from stereotypes (i.e. transmen are more sensitive/caring/processy/in tune with women, because "they were once women")

And

The 'expectation' that transmen keep one foot in the 'formerly female' (i.e. by constantly making the distinction of TRANSman instead of just saying man)



Dylan...that's the briefest I could do

thanks, dylan. guess i'll drop my change in the bucket and see what kind of ride i get.

in my mind, expectations are desires for particular thoughts and behaviors from others. if someone 'expects' me to be more sensitive, it is not up to me to uphold that expectation...unless, of course, i happen to be a sensitive sort. if i have expectations that my dinner companion will use silverware and not blow their nose on the napkins while we're eating...that's on me. i can choose to not eat with that person again. there is not really much we can do as far as the expectations of others go....but we can choose not to interact with them. it's always ok to let people know we think their expectations are unfair or unreasonable...but we don't get to tell them not to have those expectations or desires. then again, one person's sensitivity is another person's callousness. go figure.

i don't know that i'd say transguys are stereotypically categorized as sensitive. i think it may be a hope, based on the assumption that person was raised as a female child. i think you'd agree that most parents try to reinforce sensitivity and nurturing in their female children. i think, for the most part, all our parents perceived us as girls, and we were raised accordingly. i was born in the late 50's and came of age in the 70's. i was totally raised to be a wife and mother. i have been neither. i am, however, a damn fine cook and reallllly good with laundry. hell, i even enjoy ironing. i have been acutely aware of having a female body for most of my life. it seemed outrageous to me that i should be groomed for jobs (wife and mom) for which i was ill suited. i was, however, allowed to pursue my non-feminine interests as well. as long as i met my parent's obligatory education in the ways of women, i was free to pursue my other interests. i don't see any of this as watering down my masulinity or maleness. i view it as the basis for being more expansive in my humanity...which is genderless. people can think and expect what they like...sometimes the surprise is pleasant, sometimes not so much.

as far as the trans marker goes...if you need that in your definition of me, so be it. i'm not the thought or reality police. i'm also busy just living my life the best i can. in my reality, i'll never be a man-man. i wasn't born as one, i wasn't socialized as one, i haven't the foggiest notion what it is to live my entire life as one. i do stand apart from born men. coming into my manhood in my mid-40's, i had the option to pick and choose the social cues i adhere to, the attitudes i live with and by, and the way i move through the world as a 'perceived' man. yeah, that one will rankle, i'm sure. as the other transitioning guys on here are well aware, this process is multi-layered. jeez louise, talk about your onion peeling. my emotional responses have changed, my body has changed, my thought processes have changed. hell, my taste in music has changed, too. (although my fashion choices remain every bit as questionable as before) the fact of the matter is that i'm living as the best version of a man that i can manage. all based on my values and perceptions of what that is. we all, at some point, talk about passing. think about that for a minute. yeah, it means just what it sounds like it means...being taken for something we have not been previously. so much of this is about perception...inward and outward. i now look and am treated as the way i've wanted to look and be treated. good for me. it still doesn't mean that i have always lived this way. fuck, i'm not sure i'm being clear here.

given the choice between male and female, i most closely identify with male. i was no good at being a girl and i hope i'm successful at being a man. i'm grateful for the upbringing i had and the 40-odd years of being perceived as female. yeah, that's what i said...grateful. why? because it is the foundation of who i am today. it instilled in me a self-reliance and inner strength i'm not sure i would otherwise have had. who knows for sure? yes, i'm one of those kumbaya guys who refuses to try to gloss over, bury or erase the life i had pre-transition. i think it all goes to making me a new breed of man. one who can and will lead by example and set the bar higher for other men...born or made.

with luck, this is on topic and will not disappear into cyberspace the way the last one i wrote did.

[adorable]

butchfemmeplanet.com ?

And?

Mahhh Bad

I apologize for the mis-identifying

That'll teach me to assume (for now)


Dylan

Thanks for the apology.
No problem for realz....

[Thinker]

*snip*

as far as the trans marker goes...if you need that in your definition of me, so be it. i'm not the thought or reality police. i'm also busy just living my life the best i can. in my reality, i'll never be a man-man. i wasn't born as one, i wasn't socialized as one, i haven't the foggiest notion what it is to live my entire life as one. i do stand apart from born men.

*snip*

i'm grateful for the upbringing i had and the 40-odd years of being perceived as female. yeah, that's what i said...grateful. why? because it is the foundation of who i am today. it instilled in me a self-reliance and inner strength i'm not sure i would otherwise have had.

Yes.

And yes.

Good stuff, wil.

[imadiva]

I was sometimes confused,alittle amused and totally educated by all the posts and I want to thank you all for that. But ........... In my most humble opinion I think we all bring something to the table with however we want to identify ourselves to the world !!Being comfortable with yourself and in your beliefs brings you to where you need and want to be ..I love our very varied community. Keep posting about yourself and we can teach each other ...Hugs to all

[Soon]

kick ass post! wow!

[Daryn]

But really.. I know a transguy that can fluff and fold like nobody's business!

-Tony, who is totally being a smart ass.. Not all femmes can do laundry the way I like it..

Hi Tony... can you be my fluffer..... please.... we don't even need Burt Reyonds or the underwear model....

[betenoire]

Hi Tony... can you be my fluffer..... please.... we don't even need Burt Reyonds or the underwear model....

Okay, but you two had better take pictures.

[Daryn]

So, out of all of the people who've stated 'transmen don't act like *bio*men', no one can tell me how *bio*men act?

Dylan

Dayum according to my straight cis gendered buddy there is not one way bio men act...... back to the drawing board, Dylan..... I think you need to ask for a list.... something will stick somewhere

[Dylan]

I'm glad someone bumped this thread.

I was talking to someone yesterday about this thread, and I think I was not clear in one point of what I was saying.

RE: constantly repeating TRANSman, TRANSman, TRANSman over and over and over...especially when no one on this site knows of any cismen floating around here.

There's a thing that privileged people do with people from oppressed groups. I'm sure there's a name for this, but I don't know what that name is...maybe Mahhh Woman does.

Ya' ever know ThatPerson (or been ThatPerson...I know I have) who constantly refers to all of their friends as "My Black Friend SoAndSo", or "My Gay Friend SuchASuch", or "My friend BlahBlah The Lesbian"...even when it's completely A) unnecessary or B) irrelevant to the conversation? It's just a privileged way to A) use your 'friends' as a means to mark how 'cool' you are that you have Black/Gay/Lesbian friends and B) to constantly make a separation/distinction even when it's completely inappropriate.

That is what I'm talking about regarding the overuse of TRANSSSSSSSman on this site.


K, Thanks,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

i know this transguy.
he lives in TX and wants to have a special trans-commune.
filled with trans-species.
they will all gather round the campfire, sing kumbaya and shave each others backs.

i am not only cool...i am trans/green friendly.

:eatinghersheybar:

[Linus]

I'm glad someone bumped this thread.

I was talking to someone yesterday about this thread, and I think I was not clear in one point of what I was saying.

RE: constantly repeating TRANSman, TRANSman, TRANSman over and over and over...especially when no one on this site knows of any cismen floating around here.

There's a thing that privileged people do with people from oppressed groups. I'm sure there's a name for this, but I don't know what that name is...maybe Mahhh Woman does.

Ya' ever know ThatPerson (or been ThatPerson...I know I have) who constantly refers to all of their friends as "My Black Friend SoAndSo", or "My Gay Friend SuchASuch", or "My friend BlahBlah The Lesbian"...even when it's completely A) unnecessary or B) irrelevant to the conversation? It's just a privileged way to A) use your 'friends' as a means to mark how 'cool' you are that you have Black/Gay/Lesbian friends and B) to constantly make a separation/distinction even when it's completely inappropriate.

That is what I'm talking about regarding the overuse of TRANSSSSSSSman on this site.


K, Thanks,
Dylan


What about those of us that claim transman as our own choice as ID? Similar to how some use "tranny" (a term I personally dislike) to ID themselves?

Asking seriously and wanting directions to the trans-commune

[Daryn]

Asking seriously and wanting directions to the trans-commune

First you need a ticket from trans world airlines (oh wait they went out of business years ago or maybe there is a new one....). Then you must fly to No. California and wander through the redwoods for 40 days and 40 nights..... and when you wake on the 41st morning, if you eat your granola and sing kumbaya perfectly a transbird will drop directions to the nearest transporter that will beam you to the trans-commune.....

I think I got that right... but it's directions damn it...

[Thinker]

That is what I'm talking about regarding the overuse of TRANSSSSSSSman on this site.

What about those of us that claim transman as our own choice as ID? Similar to how some use "tranny" (a term I personally dislike) to ID themselves?

I'm thinking the same thing, Linus.

Dylan, is it about *others* referring to the men here as transmen, or someone using that term to self-identify? I'm assuming it's the former but just want to be clear.

I appreciated the example you gave. Someone else describing me as a transman to other people means they are taking upon themselves to out me; that is neither their place nor is it safe (for me). But here, at this site and in this community, it doesn't really phase me. I guess, for me, it's a time & place kind of thing.

[Jet]

ETA by Linus: This thread was created out of this other existing thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235) and put as a separate thread to allow it to be discussed on it's own. Enjoy


I also think these 'expectations' put undo pressure on transmen to then BE more 'sensitive' or 'pleasing' or face nasty commentary like, "I would think you'd be more aware of that, being that you used to be a woman". Um, I was never a woman. I may have been female-bodied, but I've never been a woman. Don't expect me to be anything but a man.

Not ALL of us transmen are more sensitive. Don't 'expect' us to be more knowing or more in tune. While aware of social conditioning, some of us picked up the social conditioning of <shock of all shocks> MEN, because we ARE men.

If you think you're getting a 'really masculine woman' or someone who's been 'sensitized' by past experience, you're A) seeing transmen as female, and B) setting yourself up for disappointment if you think this is how all transmen act.

I don't 'get' women anymore than your dad, brother, uncle, or cousin. If you think I'm going to want to 'process' anymore than your dad, uncle, ex husband, brother, etc...you're in for an unpleasant surprise. If you think I'm 'the best of both worlds', we're going to have some problems. If you think I'm going to magically know how to 'read your mind', you're in for another unpleasant surprise. And honestly, if you think any of these things, you're seeing me as 'has been woman'...because these aren't expectations you have of men. EXPECT me to be (your picture of) a man, and I might surprise you, by remembering your birthday. EXPECT me to 'be more sensitive', and you'll be sadly disappointed.


Dylan

Ditto..........

[Dylan]

I'm thinking the same thing, Linus.

Dylan, is it about *others* referring to the men here as transmen, or someone using that term to self-identify? I'm assuming it's the former but just want to be clear.

I appreciated the example you gave. Someone else describing me as a transman to other people means they are taking upon themselves to out me; that is neither their place nor is it safe (for me). But here, at this site and in this community, it doesn't really phase me. I guess, for me, it's a time & place kind of thing.

Yeah, I'm definitely not criticizing how transfolks choose to identify, or when.

Yeah, I'm talking about others ALWAYS using TRANSman instead of just "My friend, SoAndSo" or'him' or just "My male friend SoAndSo"

On this site in particular (well and the other), men of the site are (almost) always referred to TRANSmen...even though its unnecessary.

I mean, I /we don't refer to all the cis people as, "My cis-femme friend SoAndSo" or "I dated a cis-femme once" and so on...but the men of the site are always denoted as TRANSmen or ftms or just The Trans (which to me sounds like a disease like The Clap)...never (ok, maybe once or twice) do we get to just be 'men' without our trans status being noted/referenced.

I don't refer to my friends as "My Black/Lesbian/Gay friend SoAndSo" anymore, because it's kinda gross...unless it's actually relevant to the convo


I Don't Know If That's More Clear,
Dylan

[Jet]

I've shared this story before, but it bears repeating. (My) male sexuality is innate. It's built in; I am not a masculine woman, I'm a man. It isn't easy to be transgendered especially when there is discrimination within the LGBTQ community.

I'll never forget being "disinvited" to a July 4 gathering because I was, at the time, a non transitioned FTM who identifies as male. The hosts of the party didn't want me around their straight mother and sister. They were afraid that I would call them on missed pronouns and so forth.

I was never given the chance top show that I would have been gracious. But it was okay to invite a transitioned FTM because they apparently passed.

I've experienced discrimination from lesbians who don't want anything masculine around. It's usually, "if I wanted a man, I'd go straight." Comments like this negate a rooted male identification. Jus saying this has been my experience.

[Sam]

Dylan

i respect you and your opinion.

i never thought i would say that, but after reading this thread. I actually kind of understand you better.

Great thread


Sam
"you know the one that so many have opinions about, but never really met"