A request

[DapperButch]

During the 12+ years that I have been a part of the online b/f community, there has always been an acknowledgment that not all female identified butches define as women. Posts have always reflected this awareness.

In the threads that I have been reading over the last several months (including the current ones in the trans zone), on this site, it seems as though the words, at times, are starting to be used interchangeably (female and woman), or we, at least are maybe moving towards that.

Although I am a TG Butch (I do not identify as a "female identified butch", or a "male identified butch"), I am still "butch" and it hurts my heart a little (which is simply WEIRD in and of it itself, lol), when I see this happening. It was nice to be a part of a community that separated out one's sex (female), from one's gender (woman).

I think (my theory) that the reason this is occuring is b/c several of our more verbal female id'd butches on this site define as both female and women, so the term "butch women" seems to be used a lot (as a natural form of expression for them). It seems as though when the site first started, care was taken to separate out female from women as it was at the other popular b/f sites, but that kind of slid away here.

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

(I hope that this post is read in the earnest, sincere, and genuine way in which it was written..and not in a "sense of entitlement" sort of way. I do not think that I am the only one who is concerned about this issue).

Thanks.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew

[DapperButch]

Oh DapperButch,

I am so very sorry. Please accept my appology. It is the thread you are talking about in your post that I did start a day or so ago and used the wording "women" in the trans zone. I meant no harm. Honest.

I will ask Linus to fix it if he can.

Again, my apology to you.

Namaste,
Andrew


No, Andrew. I was not speaking to your post/thread at all.

I am referring to when butches (especially if designated as female id'd butches) are automatically viewed as identifying as women.

As a side note, I was actually wondering if this post should be placed in the gender, identities, and labels forum? Linus?

Thanks.

(side note to Andrew: if you were referring to femmes specifically in that thread...it may be best for you to say that ... otherwise the word women may be construed as meaning both femmes and women identified butches. Just trying to be helpful, here)

[BullDog]

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

[Nat]

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.


Hi :) I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

[GoofyLuvr]

Point well made. Something more to think on. :)

[JustBeingMe]

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Bulldog, I am right there with you. I am tired of people trying to erase butch women. I for one Identify as Butch Woman/Lesbian and Online It seems I have to be even more specific as to saying I am female Identified, as oposed to just being a lesbian butch woman, like it used to be in the older days of coming out for me. I do know not all butches Identify with being a lesbian, and not all butches ID as female or woman. I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it. Maybe I can get you to pm me sometime to explain this lingo to me. the difference between female and woman thing online that is. I do commend you for ALWAYS stepping up to the plate about invisibility issues. Thanks.

[TenderKnight]

Hiya Dapper,

I can understand where you are coming from.. I've been on various butch/femme sites on and off again for about 10 years now and have seen a LOT of orbiting from one extreme to another.. In the late 90's, I had no idea what butch was, or femme, much less trans. When I came out, I came out as a lesbian, then as butch, then as TG butch, and now as trans.. Through all of that, I have seen a LOT of debates about pronouns, ID's, labels.. I don't know, maybe it is just a case of critical mass, there gets to be so much frustration within any ID'ing group that it kinda spills over.. Then people become PC and try to let that group know that, "hey, we get you.."

Maybe that is where we are now? Trans and TG and male identified has become the "buzz" word in the last couple of years.. Great for me, personally, being that I am a transgender person, but not so great for those that have had to take a back seat, at times, to the buzz word.. I get that you may feel that your personal ID and way of living and being is being ignored and maybe even becoming invisable..

I do get it.. I have no answers, but I will try to be respectful in my posts and my interactions with others on this site and in the "Real World". Thank you for the thread and the heads up.

In Light,
Tony

[DapperButch]

Dapper, since I am a butch woman who is outspoken, I will answer your post directly. First of all, when I am speaking about butch women that is who I am speaking about. I don't generalize to all butches. Most butches I know are women. The only place I have ever heard the phrase female-identified is online. If that is someone's identity I respect that. If you are not a butch woman then I'm not talking about you.

I wonder why your heart hurts from this. If you are not a woman you are not a woman.

As to separating out female and woman, I see male/man used interchangeably a lot more than I see female/woman used interchangeably and it confuses me a lot. I don't know what the term male-identified butch means. To me male is biological sex not gender.

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

[BullDog]

Hi, BullDog.

What I am asking is that one does not assume that if one's sex is female, than one's gender is woman.

That is all.

You yourself have said recently that you see sex and gender as separate things, so I guess I don't understand why you are saying that it doesn't make sense to you to separate sex from gender in this case (the case of women/female).

I am well aware that when you speak about butch women you are speaking about butch women only. I am also well aware that you do not view all butches as women.

This has nothing to do with erasing women.

Thanks.

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

[DapperButch]

Hi :) I was wondering if you could give examples? They don't need to be direct quotes from the site, but maybe some made-up examples? I'm a big fan of language and wording, but I do have a hard time figuring out sometimes how to best linguistically apply requests such as these without bumping up against others' requests. Are you talking about when butches are discussed in a more general sense or are you talking more about how people think/speak of you?

Hi, Nat.

I don't know if you were on the dash site/other b/f sites in the past , but one thing that I noticed, was that people would often say "female and/or women identified butches"...or something along those lines, I can't think of how most wrote it right now...there was always an acknowledgement of not all butches identifying as women (people used that same sort of language here at the Planet when it first opened, as well).

I am not speaking to the issue of male identied versus female identified butches. That is not what I am talking about.

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?

The thing is, I was just throwing it out there...something that I have noticed and I took the chance of saying something, hoping that others knew what I was talking about. I am not even saying it is happening a whole lot, or is even really direct at this point...I just was concerned that it was moving in this direction and wondered if others noticed it as well.

If it is something that people want to think about, cool. If not, that is cool too. :)

[Kobi]

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

[JustJo]

I am only speaking to the issue of mixing up sex with gender...assuming that a female (sex) butch also identifies as a woman (gender).

Over the years, many butches have indicated that they do not view themselves as women.

Make sense?


Ummm....no. And let me preface this by saying I'm still in my self-proclaimed "newly hatched" stage with little experience, and also that I've had a really, really, really tough couple of days.... so it may make perfect sense to everyone else here and I'm just not understanding. But I'm trying to.... so any enlightenment would be most appreciated.

Here's where I get hung up. I get that female is sex/anatomical. I get that woman is gender...which is more of an internalized perception of who I am.

I get that there are butches who claim male gender or ID.

Where I'm stuck is trying to wrap my head around how someone can be a female-ID'ed butch and not view themselves as a woman.

For the record, I adore a magnificent butch woman...so I'm not slinging off at anyone. I'm just confused as all get out...

[Beau]

As far as it being nice having female and woman separated, I'm glad it was nice for you. Having women erased is not nice to me and that's what I see a lot of. Like it's the most demeaning thing in the world to be a woman. People are apologizing for using the word woman. You will never hear me apologize for using the word woman. I think woman needs to be talked about more and given more visibility in online butch femme communities, not less.

It's not nice. It's not necessary to demean anyone.

I know for some it's a huge difference to ID as woman but not female, which even confuses me a tad bit. All the lingo has changed so much sometimes I can't even keep up with it.

It's difficult to follow how gender IDs morph and the individual meanings given these identifications. I can't keep up either, so I try to be respectful of all and never assume. That's all we can do.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.

I just wanted to repeat this because I believe Dapper's recent perceptions may have stemmed from other discussions where the attempt has been made to give butch women more visibility and voice. Other than that, I truly have not seen any shift toward the assumption that butch = woman. Also, femme invisibility is rarely given the discussion it deserves, and I think your point here is valid. Thanks for putting it in this context.


Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.

I bussed the tables at the last supper, so I feel your confusion with the changes you see here online.

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.

So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

[Heart]

I may be asking JustJo's question slightly differently: What is it, for a female-identified butch, that is uncomfortable/inappropriate about being called a woman? In other words, what does "woman" MEAN that you do not wish to be identified with/as?

This is not meant to be snarky or to put a microscope on anyone. I just wonder if the definition of "woman" gets so stereotyped and rigid that even those who are female can't identify with it. And not just butches. There are femmes who do not identify with the word either.

Perhaps I will start yet another thread: What does WOMAN mean?

Full disclosure: For me, having female-identified people reject the identity of woman feels like a loss. And I mean that in a political/historical/emotional/social/cultural context.

Heart

[DapperButch]

I never said it doesn't make sense to me to separate sex from gender in the case of women/female.

Your request seemed to be aimed at outspoken butch woman and things we are saying. As one of them, I am not clear on what your request is.

I repeat, I think there needs to be more- much more- discussion and visibility of women in online butch femme circles, not less- particularly when it pertains to butches (since there are so many misconceptions) but to femmes (since being women contributes to their invisibility within queer circles, even butch femme circles) as well.


Hi, BullDog. I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts.

I agree that the visibility of butches who identify as women is important and would also say that the visibility of butch women is not something that was supported in the past.

P.S. Sorry this is so delayed...I am at work and my computer is being funky!

[BullDog]

Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat.

I have discussed with other butches in discussions both here and the former site about female identified butch. To me that is phrase that is used online, but for me personally doesn't hold a lot of meaning. I don't tend to use it much anymore. It also seems to be used as the counterpart to male identified butch and this so-called war we are all engaged in.

I also don't think that saying female/woman identified butch is very meaningful either. There are lots of butches who say yes I am female but don't see themselves as female identified or butch woman. Some butches say butch with no qualifiers is their gender, others say third gender, other gender, pan gender and still see themselves as female. The list goes on.

p.s. Heart I would love to see your thread on Woman. :)

[Kobi]

Yes, I'd love to see a woman thread! I'd also like to see a lesbian thread.....or is that not politically correct these days?

[Chancie]

Yes, I'd love to see a woman thread! I'd also like to see a lesbian thread.....or is that not politically correct these days?

It's a little hard for me to read "not politically correct these days" when I usually have that tossed at me when I stand up for what I believe is right.

In general, it feels dismissive to me when a comment is followed by some version of "or whatever is politically correct".

[Toughy]

Kobi..........can you make your type size bigger........I need a magnifying glass to read your posts..........I'm old....laughin.....

[Kobi]

Sorry Toughy, cant see the small type myself these days lol.

Chancie, I am not one to use "politically correct" to be dismissive. I have gotten more than a few unpleasant messages when I have used "lesbian". Sometimes it is hard to know what is appropriate to whom on any given day. :)

[SassyLeo]

For the record, and I don't believe I'm alone in this, I'm still concerned with being seen and respected as a woman, period. I had to reign myself in when I read Dapper's opening post because I'm so very tired of all of the gender identity parsing of butch, but then I realized I wasn't being fair to those who don't feel acknowledged -- for whatever reason. See, this isn't a foreign country with its own language and customs, it's a world we build for ourselves on here. And that changes daily. Scary, but true.
So, Dapper, I will do my absolute best to only use "woman" as it pertains to butch as gender and not sex. For me, it's one and the same, but for some that is not true. I don't have to understand it to give those who feel differently the respect I wish to have afforded myself.

I have to admit that sometimes I just feel confused/frustrated/tired when it comes to all the labels and identities. OF COURSE, I respect everyone and their choice of label and identity... I do. And I do love to read/learn/process/discuss it. I love the debate. And I want folks to feel respected and called their chosen name (his/him/hys/hym/hyr/her/hir...)

AND

Sometimes for me I get to this place in my head where I think, in the straight world, we get so labeled and stereotyped...do we really want to continue down that path in the Queer world? Are we just separating more?

AND

Then I think, well people are going to label us anyway (human nature?), outside and inside the community, so might as well pick something you like!

:confused:

[adorable]

Here is what I have learned:

Some people see Butch as their gender in the same way that some people see Femme as their gender.

[Waldo]

I do love to read/learn/process/discuss

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

[ruthie14]

Can't say I'm not confused....but I'm trying. If I ever make the mistake, please gently tell me. I respect everyone here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I'll continue to read and learn. Thanks Dapper

[sweetfemme247]

this thread is very useful to me, since I have in the past used the word him/her and butch/femme wrongly, I dont know everything about them.

[DapperButch]

Can't say I'm not confused....but I'm trying. If I ever make the mistake, please gently tell me. I respect everyone here and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. I'll continue to read and learn. Thanks Dapper

No worries, Ruthie. :)

[Bit]

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.


YES. This. I believe that if we could routinely do this: "I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do." then the conflicts would stop.

[SassyLeo]

I can vouch for that.

My read? It's complicated.

Let's not assume what people are talking about. Let's inquire. "when you say X do you mean Y?" goes a long way toward more understanding on both sides of a discussion. Unless someone is being clearly dismissive and down right ignorant when using labels I choose to believe they mean well and they have a different take on the issue than I do.

Me? I am a woman. I don't separate woman from female. I know others do. Cool. Respected. I'm not attempting to disrespect when I say something about butch women. I'm just lucky to get pronouns right these days. Don't ask me to keep track of whether you separate gender for sex and what you refer to your naughty bits as. Please and thank you.

I think there is an expectation that we do "keep track". I'm not saying it is right or wrong, but there have been comments in other threads about people not using the right pronoun and it is perceived as being disrespectful because one cannot remember which the person prefers.

[AtLast]

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

[BullDog]

Amen AtLast! Woman is not a dirty word.

I think what is causing the recent consternation (and it isn't just one particular person judging by the responses and thanks) is butch women speaking up and people are uncomfortable seeing butch and woman in the same sentence without a bunch of qualifiers a few times and then needing to say, no, no, not me. Really? I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

[adorable]

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

[rlin]

I find this subject very interesting, of course. It hits really close to home for me.

I havent been around this online community, that has been busy being built into what it is, for many years. When I started coming to these sites I started figuring out what kind of labels I would use to describe myself, especially since that is one of the very first things it was demanded that I do. I gotta tell you that it took me a few days to register the first time; I didnt have any idea what i identified as, I just knew that some things I definitely had an aversion to saying about myself.

When reading here I admit to still being confused about gender and sex and what is PC. I am butch. I am a big manly butch woman. I take pride in being a woman. I dont want to be a man. I almost choke when i have to fill out a form and say that I am female. I don't feel female.

As I am reading, I realize that the way I think of butch is opposite to what I see is others definition of butch.
To me my gender is a woman. My sex is a butch. I am a butch woman, not a female woman.

OK.

I said all of the above to show that with best intentions and with everything that I feel is right I may inadvertently say the wrong thing to someone - May? Hell, I have, surely.

This to me is as simple as the live and let live philosophy that we should all adhere to. A newbie in the midst may say all kind of things that they have never considered and have never been exposed to. These folks should be educated about the fact that some of the members are touchy about things and feel strongly about pronouns. That said, we can all tell by now, thru the reading of many posts and statements, whether someone is trying to hurt or is just saying their truths. Some of us just dont have the time or the brain function to take notes or remember exactly who wants what.

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

We each live. We each learn. We each fuck-up, often, thats why we learn.
I wish for the benefit of the doubt.
I dont want to say that we should all do any one thing. I dont want to suggest that we all shouldnt have to put the disclaimers in each post.
I do wish we would all just live and let live.

And. in closing, let me add the disclaimer that i know i didnt say this as eloquently and as directly as i envisioned in my head, that means i probably stepped on some toes in my attempt to tread lightly on an issue that is sensitive to many. I apologize in advance for anything hurtful or insensitive that i may have said while describing my take on this matter.
hmmm...
I think that covers it.

Sincerely,
rlin

[Martina]

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.


Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

[BullDog]

I think that if people stuck to speaking for themselves it would be fantastic.
What annoys me is that some people tend to want to speak for me too which I see as a tad misogynistic on their parts. Collectively no one should get to speak for ME as a BUTCH, as a WOMAN or as a FEMINIST. I have a say, I am here too. Your version is not the only version. Your way is not the ONLY way. So the collective "I have it all figured out and you don't sweetie" crowd should speak for themselves and let me speak for ME. No one holds the patent on what a butch woman is for the rest of the world or how all butch women feel or what every butch woman experiences.

I am tired of too of this sense that there is some sort of war going on between male and female IDs. Male IDs are NOT about sexism. It is NOT about superiority in butchiness. It IS about how people are born and how they FEEL inside.

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

[AtLast]

Damn, if that isn't the truth. Not excusing anything, but it's so much better than it used to be when people made fun of lesbians. There were THREADS on the dash site devoted to it when i first joined, and it was not an infrequent exchange on chat.

i used to report on the threads and complain to the chat monitor on chat. Nothing. Nothing for a long time. Until there was a mini-insurrection (i know that is overstating it) in the threads, thanks to Heart and a few others. People finally started realizing there were quite a few lesbians on the site who really did not enjoy being demeaned.

It SO felt like a reluctant administration finally having to deal with something they didn't want to. It's so ironic that the owner of that site is now in business with lesbian enterprises like Olivia. It's just ironic to me.

Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

[Jett]

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

[BullDog]

For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I think I used to use the phrase female/woman identified in a similar way that Metro says. I just don't find it useful anymore because it leaves people out and also may assume more commonalities than are actually there.

[AtLast]

Previous post deleted because I'm not going to tip-toe around that someone might assume you're speaking for/about them.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r).

On the other site I'd bet I've probably said "female ID and/or butch women" more than anyone else... seriously. BUT I wasn't separating sex and gender actually but speaking in ID terms, in that I was saying I'm speaking generally about or to female ID butches and butch women ID's both.

Martina, agreed on the lesbian thing. The one single post I ever reported on the other site was blatant lesbian bashing... not a damn thing was done. It is better here but I look forward to the day when it's as un-PC to bash lesbians etc. as it is other groups in this community.

Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony,

Metropolis

No, it isn't....

[Nat]

Is there Lesbian-bashing going on somewhere?

[JustBeingMe]

There is so much more I want to say, but I really need to think more about how to say it. I agree with those here that are speaking up as butch women, and a few others on this thread about how things go down in threads. Yes, I have seen the bashing going on about Lesbians, it's just pure hatred if you ask me. No one should have to endure that kinda crap from within the community, no matter who they are, what they are, blah blah blah, etc etc etc. I'll post more as my thoughts are better gathered.:deepthoughts:

[Heart]

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

(From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.)

[Kobi]

I have to ask something. This is not about Dapper's request being denied at all in terms of hys personal desires. It is important to recognize how someone else defines their gender and self. Since joining a B-F site (not even 3 years ago), I have been amazed at the general degradation of the term woman. As applied to butches or femmes. I have felt both anger and puzzlement over this.

Frankly, I don't believe this has a thing to do with or is about gender identification, but everything to do with this community mirroring the prevailing (and ages long) view of women as less than men and that the only purpose a woman can possibly have is that which serves men. (And no, this is not any kind of a dig concerning BDSM service, which is something quite different) that I have no problem with).

Among every vein of butch identity I see this and often the same caddy interactions among femmes reflecting relationships among women in US society at large. The competitiveness, the put downs. The distrust- all based upon the same old sexist stereotypes.

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. I didn’t want this kind of attitudinal framework as a heterosexual, a bi-sexual, or a garden-variety lesbian. Nor do I want it as a queer lesbian butch woman! And I sure as hell don’t want the same things I lived with as a young woman for my grand daughters, no matter how they choose to identify in terms of sexuality or gender.

Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is.

And no, not all TG men are sexist, in fact, most I know are strong feminists. Also, there exist misogynist FIBs as well as MIBs along with every other identification in between as well and misogynist femmes of every identification.


Sometimes, I just wish we would get our heads out of the sand and take on the issues that hurt us outside of our little web-world (like sexism). Issues around gender are extremely significant in doing so. But our butch-wars are not! My personal rendering of butch is no more important or significant than any other person's on this site. Can't we work with one another?

I know…. The soap box….

Sometimes I think it is difficult to understand where someone is coming from when they say sexism and misogyny is alive and thriving in the alternative lifestyle community.

Perhaps some examples will prove helpful in this respect.

First, I have seen threads getting, what appears to be out of hand, with female/women folk being backed into corners by both non-female/women and femme women who dont like their views and opinions about whatever the topic may be. This attacking behavior will be allowed to continue until such time as the female/woman starts fighting back using the same tactics. Then, I see a moderator step in and warn ONLY the female/woman. There is no warning given to others. There is no general, this type of behavior is not acceptable, everybody knock it off. That, to me is sexist and misogynistic.

The only people I have seen directly confront non-female/women is other non-female/women. Then the behavior seems to cease and order is restored.

I have seen femmes, especially those in relationships with non-female/women, come rushing to the defense of non female/women in a discussion. It feels like females/women are expected to hold their own but non-female/women are unable to do so?

I have had females/women/butches/lesbians agree with some of my more controversal views and outspokenness in private. Yet in public, they are reluctant to do so. It feels like sometimes folks feel they are have to behave like they are walking on eggshells when all they are doing is standing up for their femaleness/womanness/butchness/lesbianism.

I have felt I am being told I am a second class citizen when I have stood up for my female/woman/butch/lesbian identity. It is as tho I am supposed to downplay it in order for someone who identifies differently not to feel excluded.

I have seen butch women present an idea that will have femme women picking at their bones. But, if the same idea is presented by a non-female/woman....it is open for discussion and elaboration.

I have seen non-female/women refer to women as chicks. Excuse me?

I find this behavior odd and disturbing and dismissive and sexist and misogynistic and homophobic.

[Beau]

I just don't see our ever transcending gender divisions until, or unless we stop our own oppressive attitudes towards women. ... Woman is not a dirty word and it is not the problem between and among us all. Sexism and the continuation of male as superior is

Yes, I agree; that's the problem. Hopefully, this discussion will create a lasting solution for the tone and interactions on this site.

I don't know why people would worry about what they are not instead of what they are.

On a related note, every time someone mentions the word lesbian I just set my egg timer and just wait for people to come racing in to announce "I am not a lesbian." Lesbian isn't a dirty word either.

I use butch and woman together a lot, not just because that is how I id but because the way butch women are treated is a symptom of a larger problem- sexism and misogyny. And yes there are feminist transmen and male identified butches. They are not bothered by butch women speaking up. It doesn't threaten them in the slightest.

Bully, I think you articulate succinctly why as butch women this discussion is necessary. Also, for those of us who do identify as lesbians, it's amazing to see that at times within this community that word might as well be leprosy. I find that incredibly sad, and I don't understand it. at. all. And yeah, I find it homophobic, which is incredibly ironic. (to paraphrase Met)


I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.

Yes, the irony is thick.

Well the more people who speak up about butch women, women and feminism the better. Different perspectives are good.

Absofuckinglutely.


Isn't this the truth! NEWS FLASH - Not all lesbians are anti- B-F, queer, Trans/Ig, and it is not the 1970's any longer!! I'm a lesbian and a butch! Also, coalition building across diverse communities helps banish stereotypes and transmits education about our community that is much needed. Isolationism simply floats a larger leper island, so to speak.

I understand (and have experienced) some of the crap that some lesbians spew about the B-F community. However, just as we as individuals fall into every form of unique here, so do lesbians.

I don't choose to be a victim of negative transgressions, or even a survivor. I want to be an advocate and an educator.

Your perspective and gentle treatment of all issues surrounding this subject makes you just that -- an advocate and an educator. It's greatly appreciated, AtLast.

There's a need for butch women (women) to speak about their issues, and w/o having to qualify that not all females are women when saying "butch woman". If just saying "butch woman" with out all the "and/or but not them" is making peeps think all females are women seems the problem there is with the ass-u-me (r). ... Better yet, when peeps just grasp mentally it's not ok to bash or discriminate against peeps based of their sexual orientation.

Yep more irony, Metropolis

Well, Met, I hope that by pointing it out, some who refuse to see it or simply can't see it will finally understand that discrimination within our community only feeds the discrimination in the larger society we inhabit. And that's why it's so important that we seek a way past this narrow mindset concerning ourselves.


For most butch women our biological sex is female. To me it is what it is, it's biology. If there are females who don't feel they are women, isn't it up to them to speak up as to how they feel about themselves and their gender if they want us to understand instead of being afraid people are going to mistake them for a woman because there are butch women speaking up? That feels very anti-woman to me.

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

Bully -- I so hope they do. I'd truly like to understand this better for myself. I realize that this is in part the rationale behind Dapper's opening post, and I'd just like to know what's behind that feeling. Not so I can respect Dapper's identity -- because I believe I already do --- but because I'd like to truly understand it in a way that I don't currently. And, I hope all butches who feel this way will speak up to help me understand.

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."


Thanks for posting this, Heart. It goes to the heart of the matter.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I just gotta say as one of those femme's who comes into ALL threads regarding gender.. Even when I was not partnered up with anyone of any gender.

Just sayin'

[Toughy]

off to find the super dooper magnifying glass so I can read what Beau has been posting...........

Beau my friend....laughing.....larger type size please.........

[Bohemian Rhapsody]

Interesting discussion. As a woman who entered the community shortly after the last supper, much has changed. We didnt distinguish between sex and gender back then. We were concerned with being seen as women period.

All these different id's are difficult and complicated and confusing. And, it is not something I deal with in my everyday life. So, when here, it is kind of frustrating to try to remember who is who and who prefers what. Sometimes, for me, being here is like being in a foreign country, with a foreign language and foreign customs.







That is exactly how I feel about the labeling that goes on in the LGBT community. Why do we have to pigeon hole ourselves into a certain group anyway? It certainly isnt easy for me to put myself in any one catergory and I certainly dont want someone doing that for me.

[AtLast]

Maybe Jessica Pettitt says it best:

"The very notion of out butching one another and competing for masculine validation intersects with complicated relationships, sex roles, friendships, and internalized sexism in a way that must be addressed directly. Lets put our fists down, and look eye to eye to those we are separating ourselves from so that we can collaborate in our fight for justice."

(From the blurb about her keynote at the Butch Voices regional conference in Dallas.)


Damn, I wish I could attend! I believe that the honest and real conversations were begun at the Oakland 09' conference. Not without pain, but with the willingness to break through the BS and stop hiding from one another. Collaboration is the operative term, for sure and the key to forming effective coalitions.

Had to edit to add- when will the members that most of this conversation needs to be with, join in? I always feel like we end up preaching to the choir.... and the choir is representative of various identifications.

[SuperFemme]

Dapper? Dapper? Are you still here? I know your intent was not bad in starting this thread. It wasn't a crazy request even.

[Outlaw]

I don't really know what any particular individual means when they are say they are female bodied but not woman. It's up to them to let us know what they mean by that if they want to be understood.

I believe, without regard to how I choose to identify, that it's my obligation to seek information and ask questions about what I don't understand. I also believe that it's my responsibility to foster an environment where if one chooses, those (from their me place) answers, can be heard.

Does this :yeahthat: make any sense?

[tantalizingfemme]

I have read through this thread a couple of times and can honestly say I am lost as to how the OP's request of:

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.


turned into:

I, personally, had to smile when i read the OPs statement. I tend to be overwhelmed by how much male/man is celebrated in a site that is named after something that is traditionally a lesbian group.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The assertion that attitudes and behaviors are less favorable towards women-identified butches and more favorable towards male-identified butches confuses me since the start of this site, I saw the woman-identified butch celebrated, not degraded.

A perfect example is the thread
http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=395&highlight=butch+women

Thanks....

[Dylan]

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?

That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members.

I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it.

[Jett]

Does anyone know which topic area the thread about male vs masculine is located in?

That thread is a good one to ponder the female-bodied, non-woman identification of some members.

I'll keep looking for the link. I learned a lot in reading it.

Here you go... ;)http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=408

[tantalizingfemme]

Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.


P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me. :)

[BullDog]

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan


This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women.

Apparently you don't like the responses.

I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women.

[Dylan]

I believe, without regard to how I choose to identify, that it's my obligation to seek information and ask questions about what I don't understand. I also believe that it's my responsibility to foster an environment where if one chooses, those (from their me place) answers, can be heard.

Does this :yeahthat: make any sense?

This post deserves repeating


Dylan

[AtLast]

Thanks for the link AtLast and Metropolis.... I remember reading it when it was active.


P.S Dylan, thanks for your pointed post, I thought it was just me. :)


You are welcome and thanks to Met- I was going nuts trying to find it again. I honestly think there are many things stated in it that do address the female-bodied butch who does not include woman as part of their identity and has information from members that goes to Dapper's request without bringing sexism along with it.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Dylan
I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan



Dylan,

Thank you for providing us with a perfect example of what women/lesbians have been referring to in this thread.

You want us to accept and respect all the differences that make up our community. But when women/lesbians stand up for themselves (guess what, we matter too) you respond with the most dismissive, rude, crude, profane filled, disrespectful, sexist, tirade I have heard in decades.

But I am supposed to respect you? Even tho you don’t respect me or treat me or speak to me in a respectful manner?

Hate to tell you this honey but it’s a 2 way street. And I am not one of those women/lesbians who is intimidated by sexist rhetoric suitable for the 1960’s.

Your post was rude and offensive. And I think you owe some people an apology.

[Linus]

This thread isn't one about butches who identify other than woman- it was a request for butch women to make sure they don't forget to say not all female butches are women.

Apparently you don't like the responses.

I am a butch. I am female. I am a woman. If you are female and things line up differently for you, by all means let us know. I don't need to qualify things when I speaking about butch women.

I don't think Dapper was speaking to butch women only but rather to the community at large. (I could be wrong but that was how I understood the thread since it's under the general Gender, Labels, Identities forum rather than The Butch Zone).

I almost equate this to "I recognize others but I don't want to be lost in the shuffle either please". I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to stand up and let their voice be heard as is; that it is neither wrong or right but the way they are, the way we all are, the diverseness of "we" make our community that much more greater.

[adorable]

I too would like to thank Dylan, although I fail to see the "rude, crude...disrespectful, sexist tirade" that some seem to be referring too. Maybe Dylan just needs to feel the same way on the insides as everyone thinks he should and then the world would be at peace and Mother Earth would continue to spin? Hurry up Dylan! I've heard that if the world stops spinning that the gravitational pull stops too and we will all just be floating around. I can't get dressed without gravitational pull and I have to go to work!

And I would like to apologize to the OP for daring to say that Butch can stand alone for some because well - we are all women right? Wait? We're not all women? Some are born into the wrong bodies? WTF? <---which stands for WHAT THE FUCK - and yes, I fully admit that I'm rather crude at times. Just so I can understand... not everyone feels like *woman* is their gender? For some people they really do feel like they have another gender? And this has absolutely no bearing on anyone else's gender or how they view themselves? But it IS a choice right? I mean, just like being a queer or a dyke, or big old flaming homo is? Because I've heard that. Why on earth would anyone chose to be a man or just a butch or justananything but a female ID'd woman when clearly that is the better choice? Wow that IS strange, unless I am completely misunderstanding and it's not a choice? If it's not a choice but they still want to not be women we don't have to talk to them right? Because society I've heard tends to see us all the same, except those lucky enough to pass as men who then get all the privilege, well until someone finds out the truth about where they came from or maybe not? Shouldn't the people who don't feel like a woman inside just shut up so that women can have their women only space? Their one little corner of paradise with all that yucky maleness or brazen masculinity? Oh, wait that is ok as long as they are thrilled about being born as a woman and their personal herstory?? Maybe as a historian I have a poor take on current events but I swear that lots of people feel the same way about other minority groups as well? Even me? Well of course not me? Ha! Lots of people know me and I don't look gay, so I'm ok right? RIGHT? Wait, I'm not? If they find out I'm queer I'm just as fucked as everyone else who is also queer? So can I still march with everyone else because of the whole strength in numbers thing or is that a bad idea? Well, we all know that those gender choosing not to be women don't ID as queer or even butch or fags or gay...wait..wait some do? Seriously? What's next chocolate pop rocks? O-M-F-G they have those too? Pop rocks are the shiznit. So if non-women who were born female can't be who they are in here and I want to fuck one/partner with one/go to Red Lobster (not that I do of course because this is hypothetical and I wouldn't want my queer card pulled), do I need to go into a dark back alley? Does anyone know where this dark alley is? NOT that I am going there...I am NOT. That would be silly, since they have no business dating among us, outside the purity of all things butch femme, which we have defined right?

Sorry, I'm not sure how long one has to go on in a post before it becomes a tirade... Can I get a letter count?

[Liam]

I find it fascinating that a very polite request to be acknowledged—to be seen and heard, by a member of this online community, has been dismissed repeatedly, and their vulnerability has been met with arrogance displayed in a very cavalier manner. I dare say, that if the roles were reversed, there would be a call for all all non-woman members, to be burned at the stake.

It baffles me why there is so much animosity toward those who are not women on this site—it is not a woman only space. We could be strong allies, yet there are those, who repeatedly choose to create a line, and perpetuate this us against them mentality.

[Martina]

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

I too have been wondering how a thread about butches who consider their own gender something Other

Has turned into A) a dis on women

And B) A celebration of women

If One ID's as woman...fanfuckingtastic

If One doesn't, that person should also be given space without it becoming some sort of affront

For fuck's sake, just because One does NOT ID as women, it doesn't mean there are BAAAAAAAADDDDDDDDDDD, sexist reasons for that

And it doesn't mean that person needs a schooling in 2nd wave feminist thought

There's more types of feminism

There's more ways to be queer

And there's more ways to ID than woman


Christ On A Crutch That People Who Think They're So Fucking Amazing And Brilliant When It Comes To Gender Can't Fucking Accept Anyone Else's ID Without Considering A Dis To Their Own,
Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find it fascinating that a very polite request to be acknowledged—to be seen and heard, by a member of this online community, has been dismissed repeatedly, and their vulnerability has been met with arrogance displayed in a very cavalier manner. I dare say, that if the roles were reversed, there would be a call for all all non-woman members, to be burned at the stake.

It baffles me why there is so much animosity toward those who are not women on this site—it is not a woman only space. We could be strong allies, yet there are those, who repeatedly choose to create a line, and perpetuate this us against them mentality.


How about now Dylan is the great divider and has an agenda?

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

[JustJo]

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

Thank you Lady Snow.

I came into this thread and asked a question oh way back at the beginning....got a nice pm from the OP, and an actual illuminating response from Bit (thank you ....again :rrose: ), but my honest, "please educate me because I'm new here" question got completely ignored. Instead it sounds like more and more of an old fight.

Honestly, I'm disappointed.

I hear less drama about all this "how do you ID" from my own mother these days (which is saying something...let me tell you...for her to accept that I have a butch partner is probably a sign of the next coming....but anyway....)

At the risk of sounding like I'm asking us all to stand in a circle and sing....I have to say that I'm frustrated. I'm still very new to this community, and I was thrilled to find everyone here....he/she/hy/ze...the ftm and mtf...the daddis and girls...the leather/bdsm (k...I don't read those threads cuz I scare easy, but hey...I'm glad you're here).

I appreciate the diversity here. I don't need to agree with everyone. I don't even need to understand everyone. I just don't understand why we want to spend so much of our time trying to verbally beat the crap out of each other when we have bigger fish to fry.

K...I'm done.

[Chancie]

I've started to post to this thread several times and deleted my post.

In general, like a family or a polyamorous relationship, there is a history of how members here respond and react to each other. In some cases, that history is close to ten years old.

This thread was started by someone who wanted to say I'm here, I'm not a woman, Get used to it.

If your agenda is different, start a different thread.

If you are feeling ignored, start a new thread.

How does that cliche go?

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[adorable]

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking less for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

The issue I saw on the dash site was the sense that being male ID'd MEANT that you were trying to be a "real" butch or butchier then other butches. The default to he was being used all willy nilly instead of she. The question was asked why wasn't the natural default she? Which was a great question. Why did people default to he automatically - is that symptomatic of a greater social misogyny? That question quickly snowballed into "I am just as butch as you." This is where it gets tricky because it is at this moment that the two sides seperated.....

One side is saying because that is how I feel inside and the other side is saying that is how I feel inside...
And neither side is speaking to the actual question of why the natural default isn't she....which still IS a great topic for discussion. But it didn't solve the default problem because people were all jumping up and down for their individuality.

Yet, everyone still felt the same way on the inside and wanted to be respected for who they were. And lots of people had no idea wtf to default too because no one wanted to trample on people's insides, yet still wanted to talk to each other.

THE WONDERFUL thing about this site is the addition of the box over there
<----------------- which SOLVES the problem of how individuals want to be addressed. Default to anything no longer an issue. We can all be who we are and it be respected. YAY!

So now, with the box people can easily represent how they feel on THE INSIDE. I feel "she" on the inside. Not everyone does, I can tell because I look at the box and if I see "he" I know that means they feel "he" on the inside. Some people may not feel he or she on the inside so they could put something else in their box.

Can we ever have a question about why the default tends to be He instead of She? I doubt it. He and She are big parts of people's identities. And while I can stand back and see what happened, getting those who are mired up to their eyeballs to see what happened just doesn't seem to work.

It is almost getting comfortable for the two sides to just keep accusing the other of silencing - when in fact - they actually probably agree on the the idea that defaulting to he doesn't make a lot of sense and is a great question.

They really only disagree about how they feel inside for themselves. Which has nothing to do with the default being he as a bigger social issue...

For whatever reason they will not see as two seperate issues that have all got entangled together. So lets just keep with the lines in the sand and the argument over who's insides are more valid.

[SuperFemme]

How about now Dylan is the great divider and has an agenda?

It's disgusting to watch the constant attacking towards one another over one's own personal gender choice

Diversity?

Where??

What kills me is that anyone felt the need to defend themselves against somebody's personal id and request for respect. Defend against what?

[Jett]

I read back through this thread and didn't see anywhere even one person say:

...there's only one way to ID as butch

...that there's only one way to be queer

...that any persons ID is wrong

...that any ID is better

...that anyone even took anothers ID as a dis to there own

...anyone accused of taking up too much space

...that butch can't stand alone

...anyone doesn't belong here

I haven't even seen any general animosity toward any other ID from any ID... OP or posters and I question seriously why anyone would want to make it look like that considering we're trying to foster community for everyone here right? Or are we trying to perpetuate some divide?

What I have seen is Dapper's post about and request that female ID being mixed up with women ID in discussion and that it makes hym uncomfortable even though hy ID's as neither. I think there was a misunderstanding that Dapper was requesting only women ID butches were responsible and should work on it.

Somewhere midway through Dapper said : "I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts."

By this time per usual because of the misunderstanding the thread was slightly derailed, I say slightly because the topic was about female and butch women being used interchangably and those ID's and related were still being spoken about.

That said... I wish that in the interest of the whole community we would read the threads before we jump in and make huge generalized sweeping negative comments about entire groups, ID's sexes or genders and then paint them as thee ones dissing, divisive or downgrading any other IDs. This is how shit gets stirred not how stuff gets fixed or threads get back on track for the OP.

Instead of really heating things up with "look! They're the one's creating all the divisiveness! Listen to what I'm going to say they did!"... how about quoting individuals? How about addressing the actual posters who offended and dealing with that person individually... unless of course we're trying actually to paint or make a statement about ALL people in that group... to which that'd be the true singling out and painting of an entire identity, sex or gender for what-ever motive.

We ALL have a right to speak up, butch women in this thread have a right to speak up here when spoken about, trans people have a right to speak up for themselves, butches have the right, femmes so on and so on... it's NOT an affront to other IDs when people do speak about themselves especially when spoken to or about in the OP.

That's one thing I definately agree we need to get the hell past...

[betenoire]

Thank you, Chancie.

[TenderKnight]

A couple more cents to add, mostly along the lines of the default to "he" when it comes to butch/femme online interaction..

I know that when I first started this trek on the b/f interwebs, "He" was my way to get in my head, ok, this is a butch instead of a femme.. It is the visual image of a person with male or mascaline engery. I didn't feel that it was anti anything.. I didn't think it could hurt anyone.. Besides, everyone was doing it.. lol

Now, I get to grow a little, stretch my brain muscle and relearn and rethink this binary way of seeing this community.. It is very diverse, but sadly, as been stated more then once, everyone gets really touch about ID's.. If you start to call me girl or she, yeah, I'd think you were an ass, because it is plainly stated about how I ID.. *shrugs*

Just some of my thoughts and experience while interacting on this and other forums.

In Light,
Tony

[Dylan]

Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.

A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.

The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.

Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.

Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking for a long time.

The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.

Martina,

When you say, "This is a backlash," what is the 'this'? Are you talking about the OP, or are you talking about my post? I kinda get the idea you're saying the OP is a backlash. And honestly, I just don't see it. The OP was referring to the fact that some butches just don't ID as 'woman'. Just like some femmes don't ID as 'woman'. Why is that seen as a 'backlash' to women?

But then, of course, when Another ID talks about their own ID, it's naturally a 'backlash' and an affront to women. Talking about another ID under the queer umbrella is always seen as victimizing women in one form or another. The perpetual victimhood of women...another reason I moved out of 2nd wave rhetoric, and into 3rd and 4th wave.

EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.

Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.

When they hijack a thread about Another's identity...they ARE silencing.

Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.

"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"

Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.

There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.

But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'. It's NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness as they see fit...no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized.

It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women.

EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.

Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything.

And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?

This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.

Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.

Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.

Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.

Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.

This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.


Dylan

[BullDog]

But then, of course, when Another ID talks about their own ID, it's naturally a 'backlash' and an affront to women. Talking about another ID under the queer umbrella is always seen as victimizing women in one form or another. The perpetual victimhood of women...another reason I moved out of 2nd wave rhetoric, and into 3rd and 4th wave.

Always Dylan? LOL. Perpetual victimhood. LOL. Who's crying now?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Since I am the one who pointed out the whole accusatory agenda thing towards Dylan...

I Snow (this is Snow coming from Snow space and what Snow is feeling) feel this has gotten ridiculous sometimes, notice I said sometimes not ALL the time. I get that Dapper started a space for butches, I did not *ass-u-me* it was for one type of butch or one particular butch gender, care to know why? I don't lump butches into one gender or one pronoun.

Years and years of being on these sites has taught me to look to see what butches, or femmes prefer to be addressed as, and now low and behold there is a place to the left that pretty much tells it all.. I also have learned that even if I make a mistake someone will be kind enough and correct it and I will have the courtesy to remember that.

So yes to me (once again me space) it seems like just A lot of mud slinging is A happening....

I could just be over sensitive right now I am not feeling my best....


Edited to add:

Nope I am not over sensitive

I just need to bounce out of this convo too it's just to fucking crayzee and I promised June to be good while she vacationed..

Peace out Peeps and GOOD LUCK!

[BullDog]

During the 12+ years that I have been a part of the online b/f community, there has always been an acknowledgment that not all female identified butches define as women. Posts have always reflected this awareness.

In the threads that I have been reading over the last several months (including the current ones in the trans zone), on this site, it seems as though the words, at times, are starting to be used interchangeably (female and woman), or we, at least are maybe moving towards that.

Although I am a TG Butch (I do not identify as a "female identified butch", or a "male identified butch"), I am still "butch" and it hurts my heart a little (which is simply WEIRD in and of it itself, lol), when I see this happening. It was nice to be a part of a community that separated out one's sex (female), from one's gender (woman).

I think (my theory) that the reason this is occuring is b/c several of our more verbal female id'd butches on this site define as both female and women, so the term "butch women" seems to be used a lot (as a natural form of expression for them). It seems as though when the site first started, care was taken to separate out female from women as it was at the other popular b/f sites, but that kind of slid away here.

I am writing this post as a reminder that many butches do not define as women and to request those peeps who are open to respecting this, try to reflect this in the wording of their posts.

(I hope that this post is read in the earnest, sincere, and genuine way in which it was written..and not in a "sense of entitlement" sort of way. I do not think that I am the only one who is concerned about this issue).

Thanks.

Well, I am quite amazed at some of the hostility but not really surprised at the responses here. The bolded portion is what I responded to. I was never hostile towards Dapper nor hys id (which is neither butch woman or female identified butch). I haven't seen anyone be hostile towards the OP and there wouldn't be any reason to be so.

There are great threads discussing butches who don't id as women as well trans threads on this site. I haven't seen any disruption of them whatsoever and have seen butch women express their appreciation in them.

I will say for the third time here- I think there needs to be more discussion of women (butch as well as other women) in butch femme communities, not less. I will work towards trying to help create more positive spaces instead of butting up against openly hostile people. I have started a thread for Dykes and Lesbians as well as Friends and Allies. Everyone is welcome. Heart started a thread on Women as well. I hope there are more discussions about Women on this site and that people of all genders participate in them. There are other interesting topics that do not pertain to Women specifically to discuss as well.

Best Wishes,
BullDog

[JustBeingMe]

I hate to say it, but this is EXACTLY how threads stop. Just what happens when someone comes in ranting about something in a thread, and then BAM< no more talk. I hate it I do. I can't stand it when this shit happens, and sometimes I just want to say Grow the Fuck Up and stop acting like crying babies and behave. If you have something to say, then dammit by all means say it but dont come in and disrupt a thread with tantrums. Jesus H. Christ. Will it ever end?

signed,
over it already.

[AtLast]

Since I am the one who pointed out the whole accusatory agenda thing towards Dylan...

I Snow (this is Snow coming from Snow space and what Snow is feeling) feel this has gotten ridiculous sometimes, notice I said sometimes not ALL the time. I get that Dapper started a space for butches, I did not *ass-u-me* it was for one type of butch or one particular butch gender, care to know why? I don't lump butches into one gender or one pronoun.

Years and years of being on these sites has taught me to look to see what butches, or femmes prefer to be addressed as, and now low and behold there is a place to the left that pretty much tells it all.. I also have learned that even if I make a mistake someone will be kind enough and correct it and I will have the courtesy to remember that.

So yes to me (once again me space) it seems like just A lot of mud slinging is A happening....

I could just be over sensitive right now I am not feeling my best....


Edited to add:

Nope I am not over sensitive

I just need to bounce out of this convo too it's just to fucking crayzee and I promised June to be good while she vacationed..

Peace out Peeps and GOOD LUCK!

And Snow hits it on the head!

When we get personal and frame things via the on-going grudge mentality, we get no where fast because hearing other people ceases. The heels get dug in, mud slings in great archs of grandeur and we go back to our respective corners without change, growth, or just being able to see someone else's thinking as valid.

I have done this and it just is not an effective communication tool. Just doesn't work!

Gonna have to start cussing again............

[DapperButch]

I don't think Dapper was speaking to butch women only but rather to the community at large. (I could be wrong but that was how I understood the thread since it's under the general Gender, Labels, Identities forum rather than The Butch Zone).

I almost equate this to "I recognize others but I don't want to be lost in the shuffle either please". I don't think it's wrong for someone to want to stand up and let their voice be heard as is; that it is neither wrong or right but the way they are, the way we all are, the diverseness of "we" make our community that much more greater.


Linus, you are exactly right. That is what I was exactly trying to do in that first post. Not let an identity get lost in the shuffle.

And that was the reason why I wanted it in the Gender, Labels, Identities section....b/c I wanted everyone to read it and wanted to make sure it was in a section everyone would feel comfortable responding in...b/c it was written for everyone. It is why I requested in my second post that it be moved there.

I also stated this directly when BullDog said that it appeared to be directed at butch women, specifically.


.....What I have seen is Dapper's post about and request that female ID being mixed up with women ID in discussion and that it makes hym uncomfortable even though hy ID's as neither. I think there was a misunderstanding that Dapper was requesting only women ID butches were responsible and should work on it.

Somewhere midway through Dapper said : "I can see how my post may have appeared to be directed towards butch women. It was directed towards everyone for their thoughts."

By this time per usual because of the misunderstanding the thread was slightly derailed, I say slightly because the topic was about female and butch women being used interchangably and those ID's and related were still being spoken about....




Actually, Met, that is not the way I see it to have gone down. I believe that the derail happened after I clarified (on page one). I think that is pretty obvious if you look back in the thread.

BullDog...you have said a heck of a lot as to how you view me/my post/what you thought I was saying....fortunately, for me the thread is short enough that people will easily be able to see how you strangely went from "Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat." (post #17), which essentially came with a cyber handshake, to strangely seeing things in a completely different way later on.

Side note: I really appreciate all those who spoke out and indicated that they understood what it was I was trying to say. I was completely floored by the negative responses I got as I expected that at most my entire post would get a nod, as the whole post was meant to be nothing more than a simple reminder as to something many people have said many times. I had NO idea it would spark such controversy. If I had ANY sense of that possibility, I never would have posted.

Last night I believed that nothing I posted in response would be heard by the posters who misunderstood what I was saying. I worried that I would be misinterpreted and that others would perceive me as being <a lot of the things that Dylan said>, no matter what I said. So, I posted nothing....I felt very silenced. I don't now....thanks.

[Martina]

Martina,


EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.

Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.

No kidding. How is that a response to anything i said? Re the backlash, people have said they didn't feel welcome anymore BECAUSE butch women were posting about being butch and women. i don't get that.

Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.

DO not characterize me as a second waver. You don't know my politics. i don't even follow some of this, Dylan. The pun on separate? Point? Yeah, i know that is your agenda. i think that characterization of the reaction to it is wildly overstated.



"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"

What is with you, Dylan? You do this a lot. You put words in people's mouths. It's hostile. It's rude. It exaggerates their position. Why do you do it?



Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.

There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.


i know it's not secret. You've stated it. Why, again, the paranoia, the comparison to fundies. What, what, what are you accomplishing beyond ad hominem attacks?

Re second and third wave, you've got my goat, so i am just gonna assert my creds. i studied Kristeva, Irigary, Cixous, Haraway, Butler etc. under some of the greatest scholars of their generation. Wanna talk post-second wave feminism? Let's do it.

The idea of accusing anyone who is on this site of second wave feminism is ridiculous.

Yeah i don't want to share some experiences with some men. Guess, what? i don't have to. That does not make me anything you are accusing me of.


But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'.

And i said that where? The only person i said had an agenda is you. Do i think some folks are reacting because butch women have spoken up? Yes. That is not saying they have an agenda.

NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness i think so too -- as long as there is the queerness as part of it. .

..no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized. Exaggerate much? Dylan, for you it's rarely about that. You take opportunities to rephrase situations and arguments so they lack any feminist critique at all. i have seen it. Once i called you on it. Something about it bothers you. Clearly.


It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women. "Everything" and "always" -- how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

No one is stopping anyone from having any conversation. How can that even be done?

Your repeated characterization of me and others as second wavers is ABSURD. Second wave feminism has been integrated to the feminism of people of this generation, but no one who is alive and reading and participating in the world has not moved past it. For god's sake i fought the sex wars against second wave feminists.


EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.

Just because everyone has had some experience of it does not mean they don't do it to others and that specific instances and patterns should not be brought up. Who EVER said women have a special ticket? WHY, DYLAN, do you argue by putting words on other people's mouths, characaturing and exaggerating their positions? Do you think that's effective?



Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything. Again, i don't really care what thread or whatever. The direction of the argument was bringing this up again. i am sorry if the OP and others lost some space. i am not trying to rob anyone of anything.

And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?

"Stomp all over" and "Wave their finger of victimhood" -- that's a real good way to build solidarity. It's rude, Dylan.


This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.

Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.

Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, there are expressions of male energy that can alienate and even trigger others -- not all of whom are women, by the way. i do not deny saying this. THat does not mean that i or anyone am ANYBODY's VICTIM. i sure as hell am not.

Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.

i don't understand what you're saying.



Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.

Where is this coming from?

This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.

Who has ever ever made that assumption on this website -- that everyone is a woman and a second wave feminist or should be? That has never been the case at any time on either website.

No kidding it's a queer website. i hope it stays that way.

[Liam]

Linus, you are exactly right. That is what I was exactly trying to do in that first post. Not let an identity get lost in the shuffle.

And that was the reason why I wanted it in the Gender, Labels, Identities section....b/c I wanted everyone to read it and wanted to make sure it was in a section everyone would feel comfortable responding in...b/c it was written for everyone. It is why I requested in my second post that it be moved there.

I also stated this directly when BullDog said that it appeared to be directed at butch women, specifically.




Actually, Met, that is not the way I see it to have gone down. I believe that the derail happened after I clarified (on page one). I think that is pretty obvious if you look back in the thread.

BullDog...you have said a heck of a lot as to how you view me/my post/what you thought I was saying....fortunately, for me the thread is short enough that people will easily be able to see how you strangely went from "Dapper, I think I understand a little bit more of what you were saying based on your response to Nat." (post #17), which essentially came with a cyber handshake, to strangely seeing things in a completely different way later on.

Side note: I really appreciate all those who spoke out and indicated that they understood what it was I was trying to say. I was completely floored by the negative responses I got as I expected that at most my entire post would get a nod, as the whole post was meant to be nothing more than a simple reminder as to something many people have said many times. I had NO idea it would spark such controversy. If I had ANY sense of that possibility, I never would have posted.

Last night I believed that nothing I posted in response would be heard by the posters who misunderstood what I was saying. I worried that I would be misinterpreted and that others would perceive me as being <a lot of the things that Dylan said>, no matter what I said. So, I posted nothing....I felt very silenced. I don't now....thanks.

I am responding to the paragraph which is bold: Dapper I am glad that you no longer feel silenced.

[Nat]

In my mind there are many roads that go in different directions that we all have traveled, and no matter how different our experiences and results have been, we share the most important thing in common. Every damn one of those roads were like sharp gravel under bare feet, so no matter how you identify on this website- to me, we are all brave, fearless and deserve respect.

This is beautifully stated.

[amiyesiam]

Under our names in the custom pronoun field is a place to accommodate how we prefer to be addressed, we incorporated it into the website because we felt it would help all of us approach each other in a more genuine and respectful manner. Using a pronoun that negates an identity chosen by a member isn't taken lightly by this website, because it does matter to some of those many brave folks who make up this diverse community and fill it out.

There will never be a default for ALL of us, just like there will never be a true universal toilet flapper for all toilets, or one cutting blade that fits all lawn mowers.
I heard people say that it was a shame that we even have to have a box for pronoun preference because the default "should" be x, y or z. The way I see it, it is never a shame to empower someone with the ability to self-identify or make space for people to be honored.

The pronoun field, I know, some don't care for, however I think it is wonderful. Anything that allows me to know, before I engage someone, what their pronoun preference is, can only be a good thing. I don't want to disrespect anyone or look like I am trying to be disrespectful when I wouldn't do such a thing.

[friskyfemme]

This has been interesting reading. I just want to share something with ya'll. I grew up in the midwest. We referred to everyone as 'you guys'. My mother, however, was insulted when a waitress in a restaurant greeted her, myself, and my sisters with how are 'you guys' today. My mother retorted 'do you see any guys at this table?' Though none of her daughters even realized the wording, it did make me aware that it really was not appropriate for our server to address us that way. She meant no disrespect I am sure, but I would hope that my mother speaking up made her more aware of how she could be preceived. So ya'll take a lesson! Being respectful, is not about what is comfortable for you. It's about what is comfortable for the person you're addressing. As well as, being compassionate is 'not assuming disrespect' is about assuming ignorance of the part of other person. We need to be more tolerant and kinder to each other while we as a non-hetro group are emerging into a cohesive force to be reckoned with.
Love and Light.

[chefhottie25]

This is an interesting topic. I identify as a boi...although most of the heterosexual people in my life refer to me as butch. I am slowly educating them. My dad and best friend both get it and call me a boi. However, at work(i am a chef) I am aware of the woman in me. There are no other women that work in the kitchen. My co-workers view me as a woman, but again I am slowly educating them on the boi construct. On a few occasions some of my co-workers have told me that I cook like a guy, or that I am like a guy because I engage in the conversations about which servers are hot, and because I am not obviously upset by their banter and name calling amongst one another. So, I guess that this thread as got me thinking about how I identify. I know I am a boi...but I have been called both he and she. Neither one really matters to me. I guess I have some more thinking to do.

[Dylan]

Martina,

If you started a thread to discuss femme/your gender and to discuss how sometimes your gender is sometimes lumped erroneously with another's gender, and a bunch of butches came into that thread and started discussing how A) your gender is automatically disrespectful to theirs, and B) why don't you ID as butch? and C) celebrated being butch and D) mocked you and started having poking and jabbing conversations about femmes/your gender...would you feel your femme/your gender thread were the right place for that celebration?

Aside from that, you're right...I generalized your personal post. For that, I apologize. It's not fair to you. Again, I'm sorry.


Dylan

P.S. Butler is heinous

[lisa93]

I never realized this before.