Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[Liam]

Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I may be kinda jealous... I wanna leap too...:p

[suebee]

I may not be leaping, but I'm luscious. Does that count? :bellydancer:

[Corkey]

Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

Way to promote community, thanks Liam, me not a lesbian, but a proud married guy to one.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I too am waiting to cheer on my queer femme sisters! :danceparty:

[Stoney]

Me Me Me!!!

IM A LESBIAN!!!!!!!

and I love it!

and proud of it





(I am willing to lick other womyn to see if they taste like lesbians)

[apretty]

a lesbian zone! cool! :)

[JustJo]

(I am willing to lick other womyn to see if they taste like lesbians)
[/COLOR][/B]

I would volunteer for the taste test, but Scoote said NO :whine:

just teasing....and popping in to say hello.

[scootebaby]

I would volunteer for the taste test, but Scoote said NO :whine:

just teasing....and popping in to say hello.


i just said no IF i couldnt taste too dammit woman....first u make me out all sweet and next like im mean...make up my mind please

[Pretty Woman]

Only one has clearly identified as a lesbian. I will make it 2. I AM A FEMME LESBIAN.I've been reading alot of these posts this week (not this one, but others on id and nomenclature), hy, she, masculine, feminine, trans included, why weren't trans included, this is misogynistic, etc. I think you get the point.:yesno:
So I am struck by the lack of clarity thus far from the postings here and from folks that are usually very clear in other types of postings...are you a lesbian? I think that was the OP here.Why the lack of clarity?
Were I in a playful mood, I'd tell a joke. Hell I'm going to tell it anyway. Lea Delaria has a joke about being in Provincetown and going into a jewelry store where on the counter rests a small sign, "20% Discount for Lesbians on All Store Items". And no one claimed it for the entire Memorial Day weekend. So she wonders, "How much of a discount WOULD folks need to say that they are lesbian? 25%, 30%, half off?"
It's no wonder some folks in the BFP community are having trouble identifying other lesbians on this site. Sometimes I feel as if it's okay to be any darn thing in the world here on BFP except a lesbian...butch or femme.

[JustJo]

Hi Pretty Woman :rrose:

Sorry...just feeling the need for a little levity after the last few days. :)

I'm a lesbian femme and pushy broad...and I'd take the discount on the jewelry too!

Only one has clearly identified as a lesbian. I will make it 2. I AM A FEMME LESBIAN.I've been reading alot of these posts this week (not this one, but others on id and nomenclature), hy, she, masculine, feminine, trans included, why weren't trans included, this is misogynistic, etc. I think you get the point.:yesno:
So I am struck by the lack of clarity thus far from the postings here and from folks that are usually very clear in other types of postings...are you a lesbian? I think that was the OP here.Why the lack of clarity?
Were I in a playful mood, I'd tell a joke. Hell I'm going to tell it anyway. Lea Delaria has a joke about being in Provincetown and going into a jewelry store where on the counter rests a small sign, "20% Discount for Lesbians on All Store Items". And no one claimed it for the entire Memorial Day weekend. So she wonders, "How much of a discount WOULD folks need to say that they are lesbian? 25%, 30%, half off?"
It's no wonder some folks in the BFP community are having trouble identifying other lesbians on this site. Sometimes I feel as if it's okay to be any darn thing in the world here on BFP except a lesbian...butch or femme.

[scootebaby]

i am a butch lesbian..that makes 3 now right(lesbians NOT butches)

[Liam]

Only one has clearly identified as a lesbian. I will make it 2. I AM A FEMME LESBIAN.I've been reading alot of these posts this week (not this one, but others on id and nomenclature), hy, she, masculine, feminine, trans included, why weren't trans included, this is misogynistic, etc. I think you get the point.:yesno:
So I am struck by the lack of clarity thus far from the postings here and from folks that are usually very clear in other types of postings...are you a lesbian? I think that was the OP here.Why the lack of clarity?


I thought it was rather clear, that I am a guy, however I am an EX-LESBIAN. I heard a member in our community express a need for a lesbian thread, and that is why I created this. I have no intention of participating further in it. Thanks to all of the lesbians and their allies who have posted thus far.

[MissItalianDiva]

I don't really like restrictive labels for myself but when it comes down to it I am a femme lesbian hmm ok ultra femme lesbian

[Lynn]

I'm usually one of the first on the block to raise my hand to the lesbian question. Just sat down to the computer after work and dinner. Am I late to the party?

Yes, I am a lesbian. First and foremost, of all my "orientations" and proclivities. Lesbian!

[Stoney]

okay......Ill settle for a sniff test. ..

[Beau]

L-E-S-B-I-A-N spells me
Skipping gaily through this thread to say unequivocally, I'm a lesbian, dyke, gay, bulldagger. Some people call this form of queer "butch".


ETA: I wrote this merely 3 days ago because I thought Bully had started a thread to help identify and/or acknowledge those who are lesbians on the site. And yeah, I'll post this everyday if I have to.

I don't want to, though. All this skipping and gaiety is exhausting. ;)

[Soft*Silver]

funny that this thread came up today, on the day I was telling someone I was thinking BFP had become a gender debate planet, not a BF site.

I am a lesbian tho people have tried to call me other things. Some call me bisexual. Some call me queer. Some call me straight. Shrug. I call myself lesbian. I am a lesbian who has dated and been partnered with CIS men, transmen, TG, male IDd lesbians, female IDd lesbians and once, a long long time ago, a femme lesbian. She proved to me that there were indeed limits to who I would date..lol

I hate the word queer. I grew up in the day when queer was a hate word. Ya I know, reclaim it and use it. Well, you can use it if you want. I hate it. I am a lesbian. And I am not going to polish up my opinion by saying "I dont like it"...because its politically incorrect to say you hate anything that someone might label themselves as. Sorry. I am talking about me and only me and I would hate that word if it were identified with me.

I am a lesbian who has loved FtMs and TG and STILL considered myself a lesbian. For awhile I was kinda lost about the label and then I just didnt care what the politics of the day had become. I am a lesbian.

I LOVE being a lesbian. And I love who I love and they can have any label they want...I will love them by name not label.

[amiyesiam]

Gayly prancing in, with an occassional leap, to twirl around and announce:
I too, am a lesbian!!
No one has ever said anything about this to me.
but then most people aren't negative to me
but then I bite
or maybe they are scared of me, cause ya know, I'm mean like that:rofl::rofl:

[Corkey]

Gayly prancing in, with an occassional leap, to twirl around and announce:
I too, am a lesbian!!
No one has ever said anything about this to me.
but then most people aren't negative to me
but then I bite
or maybe they are scared of me, cause ya know, I'm mean like that:rofl::rofl:

There's my leaping Lesbian....love ya Baby!

[scootebaby]

whaaaaaaaaa??? i just realized im supposed to be a "leaping" lesbian...ummm i havent "leaped" since i was uhhhh 27....does that mean im not a lesbian now??? :overreaction:

[JustJo]

whaaaaaaaaa??? i just realized im supposed to be a "leaping" lesbian...ummm i havent "" since i was uhhhh 27....does that mean im not a lesbian now??? :overreaction:

Don't worry baby...I'll vouch for you :winky: :lips:

[Toughy]

the Lesbian Concentrate album is now running through my mind...........Meg did 'leaping lesbians' and then there was 'ode to a gym teacher' and of course..........'filling up and spilling over endless waterfall'............

_______________________

Andrew, I know you didn't mean anything harmful.......butch can be lesbian and woman and female.....it's not just your femme sisters who are lesbians....your butch sisters are also lesbians...

_________________________

AND>>>>>>>>>>> yeppers I am a lesbian....although I have never been particularly fond of that term......I prefer 'big ole dyke' or bulldyke or butch dyke.......

my sexual orientation is strictly towards other females/women and pretty specific to femmes who get I am butch and I am woman. Who celebrate both genders I live in on a daily basis. They are damn hard to find these days.....in my experience

[tribalwomon]

Hello.....i'm tribalwomon..lesbian of color...who is so into Meg Christian..:danceparty:

[Lady Pamela]

Peekin in to say,

Count me in!



I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUND LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUND LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUND LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN! I'M A PROUD LESBIAN!



AND PROUD TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH THEM AS WELL!

ANY QUESTIONS?



http://content.pyzam.com/graphics/d/proud-lesbian.gif

[suebee]

I'm a big fat lesbian!


.....but you can call me Sue :floatbee:

[Softhearted]

OMG! How come I've missed this thread!!!!!


<------------------ LESBIAN - WOMAN - FEMALE

which would translate into my language by: lesbienne - femme - femelle

[scootebaby]

ummm Lady Pamela....i didnt quite get that....did u say u were a proud lesbian?? :nyahnyah: :simplelaugh:

[WILDCAT]

[COLOR="Indigo"] I could find. Might as all hear what song us "oldin's" are talking about.

YouTube- Meg Christian - Leaping Lesbians

THIS video was created evidently, for "out lesbians" fighting for their althletic rights - to be paid professionals and not discrimated against...(?)

I've ALWAYS been proud of the men who stuck up for us - just sayin'... it meant something extra touching and special to me personally... Wonderful photo's here of that, at a time where it took MAJOR GUTS!

SONG STILL makes me smile! I was just a kid really when I saw Meg sing this. WE LAUGHED AND LAUGHED at this time in the audience.

*Always ID'd with Tarzan as an athelete myself too. (ME STILL LIKE TARZAN, and looking for JANE!! OK, I might have been George of the Jungle too, but more coordinated.)

:LGBTQFlag:

*Note Meg comments here personally below song...

[Lady Pamela]

whaaaaaaaaa??? i just realized im supposed to be a "leaping" lesbian...ummm i havent "leaped" since i was uhhhh 27....does that mean im not a lesbian now??? :overreaction:


Here!
Let me make sure you understand...lol


This means Proud:

http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/signjpegs/p/proud1.jpg
http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/signjpegs/p/proud2.jpg
http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/signjpegs/p/proud3.jpg

This means lesbian in sign :

http://www.lifeprint.com/asl101/signjpegs/l/lesbian.jpg

Yes ...I am a Proud Lesbian....Smiles

[dreadgeek]

Count me as another big ol' dyke!

Cheers
Aj

[amiyesiam]

Count me as another big ol' dyke!

Cheers
Aj

Yes but are you a Lesbian dyke LOL

[Tommi]

the Lesbian Concentrate album is now running through my mind...........Meg did 'leaping lesbians' and then there was 'ode to a gym teacher' and of course..........'filling up and spilling over endless waterfall'............

Ah...lesbian icons
http://prod-assets.mog.com/amg/pop/cov200/drg200/g216/g21689axjgg.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GbZwKIoR3Is/Se5JmCfAxuI/AAAAAAAAA7g/yfYT4Z7lxrU/s400/cris_williamson.jpg

[scootebaby]

lol thanks for clearing that up for me Lady Pamela ;)

[Lady Pamela]

lol thanks for clearing that up for me Lady Pamela ;)


Sure thing..Wouldn't want ya lost!

Afterall, thats are good friends are for..Right?....smiles

[WILDCAT]

... thank you. :love1: (Just one pretty song and pretty important message.)


YouTube- meg christian - the ones who aren't here


*For all of those who were such wonderful pioneers for us ALL, who are now GONE.

And those of us still left, and especially to the new generation - carry on: please, and thank you.

Love and peace TO ALL! And thank YOU MEG!! :stillheart:


:aslpeacelove:

[suebee]

Okay - in all seriousness: If somebody asks me I'll say I'm a gay woman. I don't object to the word lesbian - by definition that's what I am. And the added bonus to it is that it makes most straight people squirm just a little (or a lot :) ) I don't use the word "femme", because to me that's just the French word for woman. But I'm that too I guess. So....... Sue :floatbee: it is!

[Toughy]

good grief.............what a walk down memory lane of 'women's music' which we all knew was really lesbian/dyke music.............Olivia Records..........gotta love youtube...

We spent many hours drinking beer, shooting pool in the day room and listening to women's music during my first couple of years in the Women's Army Corp............talk about your leaping lesbians and bulldaggers..........laughin........I was 20-21yrs old...........the early 70's....the first femme I ever had sex with was a red-headed Canadian who was a WAC (yes a Canadian citizen in the US military), she was my barracks sargent and it was my first night in the barracks at my first permanent assignment (Ft Campbell, KY)....and, well..... she gave me alcohol and took advantage of this poor little budding baby butch.....
:riding2:

I still remember her name and to this day have a serious weakness for redheaded femmes...

[Gayla]

Ah...lesbian icons
http://prod-assets.mog.com/amg/pop/cov200/drg200/g216/g21689axjgg.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GbZwKIoR3Is/Se5JmCfAxuI/AAAAAAAAA7g/yfYT4Z7lxrU/s400/cris_williamson.jpg

I drove back and forth across the country, twice, in a Nova, listening to Blue Rider over and over on cassette.

I've got a good selection of Chris Williamson on mp3 and occasionally plug her into Pandora just to see what comes up.

[CherylNYC]

Yup. I'm a leaping, flying, cartwheeling lesbian.

[AtLast]

Yup, I'm a dyke! I use lesbian, too.. and queer. Lesbianism is my sexuality, bar none. And it is the essence of my B-F dance!

And it is this very community (with its entire cast of characters) that has actually brought a very special rendering of lesbian to me! I'm not the dyke I used to be, really. I'd say I am a much more fluid and .... self-examined lesbian all in all. Good thing, I'm not exactly a sweet young thang!

OMG!!! The women's music memories!!!

[2myladyblue]

LESBIAN!!!
:nothingtoadd:
:pile:

[Nat]

http://s158562511.onlinehome.us/BlogImages/1961_Venus_of_Lesbos.jpg

I'm a lesbian in that I am in a female body and I love and am attracted to others who also have female bodies.

I'm also genderqueer and have often been attracted to others who have some level of genderqueerness or gender variance, but I've decided that doesn't negate my being a lesbian. I've also loved and been attracted to women with not an ounce of genderqueerness or gender variance.

[Nat]

Who knew?

http://libweb.uoregon.edu/ec/exhibits/lesbianper/assets/letterl.gif

http://cdn.webecoist.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/lesbian-lizards.jpg

Leaping Lesbian Lizards!

Officially named Cnemidophorus uniparens, these American desert lizards reproduce despite the fact that they’re all female. Interestingly, some of them simulate sexual acts (above, left) with each other just like male and female lizards, and it’s been discovered that when they do they reproduce more successfully than their abstemious sisters.

[tuffboi29]

Where as I don't dance...leap...or do cartwheels...I have been known to try to chase down a squirrel or two...and I'm a GAY WOMYN...does that make me a squirrel-chasing lesbian?*shrugs*smh...you are what you are...

[Lynn]

Women's Music was so defining for us. We had a local college radio show that, every Sunday, played all the great music and had guests like Meg, Alix Dobkin, and Ferron when she came to town. I played Cris Williamson over and over again--"Sweet Woman" made me swoon every time. When I came out, the first thing I did (and I mean this literally), was find "Changer and the Changed" on CD (much of the old music is at cdbaby.com). We had one of those small, dark bars with a jukebox and nothing much to eat. Just lots of smoke and steamy dancing. Again, defining. I never got to Michigan, but I remember a drive back and forth to a music festival in MA, with lots of stages, many outhouses, and hardly anyone with a shirt on. One important memory, when I was coming out again, was how one woman in particular made me feel any time I was within view of her. She was a big, beautiful butch and in her presence, I could barely breathe. I didn't know what that was.... Now, with life and experience behind me, I can recognize this as the first time I really felt true attraction and desire.

[Curley]

:LGBTQFlag: Waving raising hand .... just a plain ol lebso here :)

[SingularNYCFemme]

I am a femme lesbian, and happy to have figured that out at looooooong last.

[waxnrope]

when I reawakened from a long time of cave dwelling, the GLB community/ies had expanded. rather than resist the movements that I felt were growing around me, I reconsidered my own IDs, always in light of an assumed position of lesbianism (for myself). I am, and will always be, a feminist. no matter if I ID as male, butch, queer, etc. In light of this, then, I allow myself the multiplicity of my being, no matter how it changes, evolves, returns. I am a feminist, first and foremost. My understanding of this word allows my consideration/s, and acts, of fluidity.

[JustBeingMe]

I"ve been a lesbian butch for over 30 yrs now. I came out at 16 knowing exactly who I was and what type of woman I wanted to date....GOTTA LOVE THEM FEMME LESBIANS!!!:bowdown:. LOL

[Curley]

:LGBTQFlag: Waving raising hand .... just a plain ol lebso here :)

and I have a toaster oven to prove it :cheer:

[Lady Pamela]

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm157/pinksbetta/lesbian-pride.gif

Yes! yes! yes!
I am still a leaping lesbian...Smiles

Actually I just wanted to bump this thread
So those who haven't seen it will be able to...lol

[Soon]

Female Friends Forever: Looking at Adrienne Rich’s Lesbian Continuum, 30 Years Later
(http://www.autostraddle.com/compulsory-heterosexuality-and-lesbian-existence-30-years-later-5861/)

[AtLast]

Female Friends Forever: Looking at Adrienne Rich’s Lesbian Continuum, 30 Years Later
(http://www.autostraddle.com/compulsory-heterosexuality-and-lesbian-existence-30-years-later-5861/)

She has always been one of my favorites. I once studied under one of her deciples (Alison Zier) and this remains one of the brightest highlights of my life. This makes total sense to me. Thanks for the link.

[FeminineAllure]

Here to be counted. I am a lesbian.
However, I prefer to crawl on in instead of leaping at the moment.

[TrackerGirl1969]

I'm new here, but I AM a lesbian.
I refuse to leap though! :shocking:

[Jess]

Welcome aboard Tracker! I don't think leaping is a requirement... some of us stroll, skip, saunter and swagger!


It's not how you get here.. it's that you did!

Enjoy the site!

Jess and christie

[justjoanie1]

I'm a non-leaping lesbian. Me leaping would not be a pretty site.
New here, so how about I just peek around the corner and see who is here! (well, maybe not, that would just make me a peeking lesbian)

[christie]

I'm a non-leaping lesbian. Me leaping would not be a pretty site.
New here, so how about I just peek around the corner and see who is here! (well, maybe not, that would just make me a peeking lesbian)

Welcome - from one non-leaping lesbian to another! Don't get me started on peeking... I will NEVER start the day's to-do list!

Christie

[lipstixgal]

I'm a proud Jewess lesbian!!

[citybutch]

Please note Daddy Max's album cover in this video!!

Is2gnZ9lal4

I have been deep in nostalgia lately!

[LipstickLola]

Hmm, considering what would happen if I were to actually leap??
but definitely les :)

*waves to all*

[Starbuck]

L-E-S-B-I-A-N spells me
Skipping gaily through this thread to say unequivocally, I'm a lesbian, dyke, gay, bulldagger. Some people call this form of queer "butch".


ETA: I wrote this merely 3 days ago because I thought Bully had started a thread to help identify and/or acknowledge those who are lesbians on the site. And yeah, I'll post this everyday if I have to.

I don't want to, though. All this skipping and gaiety is exhausting. ;)

LOL! I LOVE IT

[Licious]

heh, i like the title of the thread, reminds me of my early days out. :) *subscribing*

[1PlayfulFemme]

*Smiling* Still, 18 years later, out and proud lesbian :) (and I'm not afraid to leap either!! Just as long as everyone moves safely out of the way first!) ;)

[Leader]

I was wondering where all the lesbians were. Wish there were a few more. And, I'm not sure where they all went. There used to be lots of 'em. :|

And, yep, I came out as a lesbian at 19 still proud to be a big ole butch one. :)

[Lady Pamela]

I just wanted to remember one of the Leaping Lesbians who began in 1945 writing and serving for the lgbtq community. She wrote the very first lesbian magazine ( even before " The Ladder" ) call " Vice Versa"...She also helped in writing The Ladder.

The link below show this as well as more info of what she has done.


http://www.queermusicheritage.us/JUN2004/lisaben98.jpg

Click link below to see info.

http://www.queermusicheritage.us/jun2004lb.html

[LipstickLola]

I was wondering where all the lesbians were. Wish there were a few more. And, I'm not sure where they all went. There used to be lots of 'em. :|

And, yep, I came out as a lesbian at 19 still proud to be a big ole butch one. :)

*Waves!* :)

[Soon]

Black Lesbians Matter
(http://www.zunainstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=145)
“Black Lesbian Matters,” report is a quantitative study on the Black lesbian community. The creation of this report was a year long process of developing the survey, conducting focus groups, and finally writing the report. This report, “Black Lesbians Matter,” is an examination of the unique experiences, perspectives, and priorities for the Black Lesbian Community, and has been our most rewarding accomplishment as of yet. The report focuses on five key priorities: Aging, Health, Identity, Family, and Invisibility. We thank all the contributors and funders that made this study come to life.

Francine Ramsey, Executive Director of Zuna Institute says, "This report is the result of year long process, and will lay the foundation for constructive dialog and the creation of an effective collection of strategies that will address the needs of the Black Lesbian community."

Report Published in July 2010

[Chazz]

Butch lesbian:aslpeacelove:

[Apocalipstic]

I have been an Out Lesbian for 27 years....though I enjoy the term Dyke more than "Lesbian".

I have, however, never been into most "Women's" music...and my knees preclude leaping today...and most days.

[AtLast]

I'm still here and as Lesbian as ever!

[Martina]

Not feeling it too much culturally these days either. Not sure why. Maybe cause i can't leap anymore either. ;)

But, of course, i am a big ole lesbo.

[Lynn]

Went to see Tret Fure last weekend. We have a pretty active folk scene around here, so we see woman like Holly Near and Cris Williamson every year or so. It's a treat. Last week's performance brought out about 100 women, mostly over 50, but some younger, which was nice. It was a really good show, but I could feel how tired she was. I, for one, love being out among "the lesbians." I feel like I'm at home with my people. Corny as that sounds. :)

[CherylNYC]

Big ole GRATEFUL lesbian here. I had a serious accident last month and my communities of mostly lesbian, mostly biker friends rallied to support me in ways that made my head spin. When they ask me what I need I keep saying that all my needs have been met before I know I have them.

This is the lesbian community at it's best. Just like we imagined it. No, this isn't the narcotics talking. I may have been premature, but I already stopped taking them. Lesbians rock.

[femmennoir]

Big ole GRATEFUL lesbian here. I had a serious accident last month and my communities of mostly lesbian, mostly biker friends rallied to support me in ways that made my head spin. When they ask me what I need I keep saying that all my needs have been met before I know I have them.

This is the lesbian community at it's best. Just like we imagined it. No, this isn't the narcotics talking. I may have been premature, but I already stopped taking them. Lesbians rock.


Big ole is pushing it, talking about you! Wishing you the very best! What a great testimonial!

Elle*

[Quintease]

I love my lesbians.

[LipstickLola]

I'm still here and as Lesbian as ever!


Me too, but this leaping thing has gotten me into trouble :confused:

[foxyshaman]

I sense a theme... lotta lesbians, not much leaping.

Not much of a leaper here... 26" legs and all...

I prefer Dyke, dangerously dorky dyke, if I want to get technical :superfunny:
The triple D... not breast size that's only a dd, but hey what is a dangerously dorky dyke to do??

:happyjump:

[LaneyDoll]

Can I just step up without leaping? Have anyone here actually seen the height of the heels I wear? lol Ok, I am a lesbian, ultra femme for those keeping score at home.

[CherylNYC]

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I am temporarily unable to leap. I will, however, be in prime leaping shape sometime late this summer. I'll warn everyone first.

[OS Butch]

Yep, another non leaping lesbian. It seems as I get older, trying to find local community has gotten harder. Even spending time with my local friends, life has gotten in a hurry and there seems to be no time to socialize. I frequently have gone to see Suede at the Birchmere and it was jam packed. Last time I went, it wasn't hard to find a seat.

[PumaJ]

The most beautiful images of all of us lesbians, leaping & cavorting, fill my mind every time I read the title of this thread. All of us in our many hued, many styles, many gendered splendor:-)

:blueheels:

[dykeumentary]

Although I still consider myself a leaping lesbian, last Friday night at softball practice I realized that my softball glove is now 25 years old.

[LipstickLola]

*Warning*.......today I will attempt to leap!! This could be ugly, lol :seeingstars:

[AtLast]

I agree. I just don't leap as high as I used to. Phooey!!

[OS Butch]

Although I still consider myself a leaping lesbian, last Friday night at softball practice I realized that my softball glove is now 25 years old.

Really?! I haven't played softball in 30! Though there is a league called the Golden Girls and 1 gal has been trying to recruit me to play for close to 2 years....Now that could be uglier than watching me try to leap!

[Kobi]

Really?! I haven't played softball in 30! Though there is a league called the Golden Girls and 1 gal has been trying to recruit me to play for close to 2 years....Now that could be uglier than watching me try to leap!



I miss softball. And my glove. And my purple aluminum bat.

I suppose I could still play tho not leap. Except I would want a chair in the field with me.....preferably with a coffee holder, and a battery operated fan.
And maybe my own personal designated fielder/runner.

Why is Springsteens "Glory Days" playing in my head?
:jester:

[NJFemmie]

Leap? Ha.
Maybe after the advil kicks in.

[Martina]

*holds on to her dyke card so no one can wrench it away*

Kate Clinton is not funny.

[LipstickLola]

As I suspected, the leaping did not go well............:seeingstars:, better luck tomorrow, lol, cuz I ain't quittin!!!

[Kobi]

*holds on to her dyke card so no one can wrench it away*

Kate Clinton is not funny.



I like Kate. Her old stuff on religion, George Bush and how lesbians would never get around to a war still makes me laugh.

But I adore Karen Williams and Marga Gomez. And the last Wanda Sykes dvd I saw had me in stitches.

Your dyke card is safe I think, but the mastercard might not be :)

[dykeumentary]

I miss softball. And my glove. And my purple aluminum bat.

I suppose I could still play tho not leap. Except I would want a chair in the field with me.....preferably with a coffee holder, and a battery operated fan.
And maybe my own personal designated fielder/runner.

Why is Springsteens "Glory Days" playing in my head?
:jester:



Another challenge has been to figure out how to play softball while wearing bi-focals. And how to not get injured.
I had no idea how easy it all was when I was a hot young softball stud. Now i look across to the other dugout and see the kids looking at ME with sympathy--- just like I used to look at them.
It's kind of great to see how far we've all come.

[CherylNYC]

It's not exactly leaping, but it's pretty darned close. Not only was I able to start riding my small spare motorcycle last Saturday, I was able to ride it an hour out of town this morning, successfully complete all the exercises required in the new ARC class, and then ride it home this evening. I'm triumphantly exhausted.

And I jumped in the air! It was a very small jump to point out something on the blackboard, but as soon as I did it I remembered that I'm a leaping lesbian again.

This leaping thing is certainly grounds for celebration. Tomorrow marks three months since my very serious accident. The final, (I think), broken bone count is 22 including 9 to my lumbar spine. And I jumped and rode my motorcycle today. The old bones have healed like fresh, young, new ones. Yay!

[dykeumentary]

It's not exactly leaping, but it's pretty darned close. Not only was I able to start riding my small spare motorcycle last Saturday, I was able to ride it an hour out of town this morning, successfully complete all the exercises required in the new ARC class, and then ride it home this evening. I'm triumphantly exhausted.

And I jumped in the air! It was a very small jump to point out something on the blackboard, but as soon as I did it I remembered that I'm a leaping lesbian again.

This leaping thing is certainly grounds for celebration. Tomorrow marks three months since my very serious accident. The final, (I think), broken bone count is 22 including 9 to my lumbar spine. And I jumped and rode my motorcycle today. The old bones have healed like fresh, young, new ones. Yay!
Well done and well earned!
Here's to more leaping, on and off bikes!

[Heart]

Tomorrow marks three months since my very serious accident. The final, (I think), broken bone count is 22 including 9 to my lumbar spine. And I jumped and rode my motorcycle today. The old bones have healed like fresh, young, new ones. Yay!

This calls for leaping with joy!

:leaping-lesbian-avatar:

[dykeumentary]

Hey Leaping Lesbians!
There's some very interesting things happening on an organizational level... have a look--

Full press release: http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/breaking-news-prominent-organizers-break-with-butch-voices-butch-nation-is-born/
(my snip)
"During its inaugural 2009 Conference in Oakland ButchVoices claimed it wanted to include all butch voices. However, a group of Steering Committee feminists left during the ’09 planning. Internal tension mounted again in 2010 when Cordova insisted upon inserting the words “feminist” and “lesbian” into the official Call-for-Submissions to the upcoming regional conferences. Although invited to serve on the Board as ButchVoice’s “sage elder”, Cordova’s value rapidly decreased when she disagreed with the Board, who proceeded to schedule their retreat during Cordova’s surgery.

Differences culminated when the Board Retreat met, without Cordova, and changed ButchVoice’s mission statement, shifting the original language of “butch women and trans folk” to “masculine of center people.” Cordova and Goldberg argued—unsuccessfully—for equal footing being given to “butch women and masculine of center people.” ButchVoice’s current mission statement says, “BUTCH Voices is a grassroots organization dedicated to all self-identified Masculine of Center people and our Allies.” (end of my snip)

What do you think about this?

[Kobi]

Hey Leaping Lesbians!
There's some very interesting things happening on an organizational level... have a look--

Full press release: http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/breaking-news-prominent-organizers-break-with-butch-voices-butch-nation-is-born/
(my snip)
"During its inaugural 2009 Conference in Oakland ButchVoices claimed it wanted to include all butch voices. However, a group of Steering Committee feminists left during the ’09 planning. Internal tension mounted again in 2010 when Cordova insisted upon inserting the words “feminist” and “lesbian” into the official Call-for-Submissions to the upcoming regional conferences. Although invited to serve on the Board as ButchVoice’s “sage elder”, Cordova’s value rapidly decreased when she disagreed with the Board, who proceeded to schedule their retreat during Cordova’s surgery.

Differences culminated when the Board Retreat met, without Cordova, and changed ButchVoice’s mission statement, shifting the original language of “butch women and trans folk” to “masculine of center people.” Cordova and Goldberg argued—unsuccessfully—for equal footing being given to “butch women and masculine of center people.” ButchVoice’s current mission statement says, “BUTCH Voices is a grassroots organization dedicated to all self-identified Masculine of Center people and our Allies.” (end of my snip)

What do you think about this?



IMO, it is just another concerted masculine effort to negate women and lesbians from the Butch agenda. It's a pet peeve of mine.

So these days, I identify simply as a lesbian just to take back the power of my womanness - something of which I am very proud. I fought too long and too hard to let a "masculine of any part" think they can tell me who I am or who I have to be.

I don't even understand what "masculine of center people" is supposed to mean. Who are the center people?

I am glad the ousted members will continue to build a womans butch community under the name Butch Nation. I like it. And thanks for the link. I have been looking for something like this.

[OS Butch]

WTH is “masculine of center people.” This dinosaur is wandering back to my cave....leaping all the way


Hey Leaping Lesbians!
There's some very interesting things happening on an organizational level... have a look--

Full press release: http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/breaking-news-prominent-organizers-break-with-butch-voices-butch-nation-is-born/
(my snip)
"During its inaugural 2009 Conference in Oakland ButchVoices claimed it wanted to include all butch voices. However, a group of Steering Committee feminists left during the ’09 planning. Internal tension mounted again in 2010 when Cordova insisted upon inserting the words “feminist” and “lesbian” into the official Call-for-Submissions to the upcoming regional conferences. Although invited to serve on the Board as ButchVoice’s “sage elder”, Cordova’s value rapidly decreased when she disagreed with the Board, who proceeded to schedule their retreat during Cordova’s surgery.

Differences culminated when the Board Retreat met, without Cordova, and changed ButchVoice’s mission statement, shifting the original language of “butch women and trans folk” to “masculine of center people.” Cordova and Goldberg argued—unsuccessfully—for equal footing being given to “butch women and masculine of center people.” ButchVoice’s current mission statement says, “BUTCH Voices is a grassroots organization dedicated to all self-identified Masculine of Center people and our Allies.” (end of my snip)

What do you think about this?

[Heart]

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.

But actually, keeping "woman/female" central to organizing efforts is a very good way to assert an anti-oppression, anti-patriarchy, anti-homophobia mission. Too many queer organizers do not understand this.

Heart

[JustJo]

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.
Heart

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

[CherylNYC]

WTH is “masculine of center people.” This dinosaur is wandering back to my cave....leaping all the way


Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

[Chazz]

IMO, it is just another concerted masculine effort to negate women and lesbians from the Butch agenda. It's a pet peeve of mine.

So these days, I identify simply as a lesbian just to take back the power of my womanness - something of which I am very proud. I fought too long and too hard to let a "masculine of any part" think they can tell me who I am or who I have to be.

I don't even understand what "masculine of center people" is supposed to mean. Who are the center people?

I am glad the ousted members will continue to build a womans butch community under the name Butch Nation. I like it. And thanks for the link. I have been looking for something like this.

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women? :|

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun. :happyjump:

[Chazz]

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

Okay, but you're buying the first round.

[Chazz]

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Ah, go ahead. Open a can of worms. They're just worms.

[Chazz]

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.

But actually, keeping "woman/female" central to organizing efforts is a very good way to assert an anti-oppression, anti-patriarchy, anti-homophobia mission. Too many queer organizers do not understand this.

Heart

Every generation feels compelled to reinvent the wheel.

In this case, it's the wheel of a unicycle.

Mumble, mumble, something about: "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". (George Santayana)

[dykeumentary]

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.


You ARE bad-ass, CherylNYC. And exactly the kind of woman I am thrilled to be fighting side-by-side with, as very visible lesbians.

[Kobi]

As a butch, I find the whole push to incorporate many identities under one concept as a disservice to all parties. There are distinct differences between male id's and female id's and it bothers me that women are expected to forego their uniqueness for the sake of someone else's identity.

I have no desire to recreate traditional male/female dynamics in my butchness. I prefer to create something unique to two women with different energies in a totally different woman defined way.

I am also opposed to inviting in heteronormative stuff, sexism, partriarchy, and misogyny into my womanness. That just seems counterproductive and self sabatoging.

I am happy to support my brothers and those of a masculine identity just as I am happy to support gay men and other identities in their respective journeys, but not at the expense of my own.

Different genders and their respective orientations have different issues they face as individuals, members of the our broader community, and as participants in the larger society. It is not a one size fits all kind of thing. And, I dont think it should be seen or perpetrated that way.

I am not interested in recreating the patriarchy with a different set of oppressive characters.

[dykeumentary]

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

[Chazz]

Hey, I really should create some recipes for worms, I've opened so many cans of them on exactly this topic.
Nah, worms belong in gardens, not on websites, although this may be news to reactionary "queer-er than thou" types. Let's keep talking about this.

I really like your use of the term reactionary in this context. It's absolutely spot on.

REACTIONARY: relating to, or characterized by reaction, especially against radical political or social change; conservative.

I've always been keenly aware of the conservative, reactionary undercurrent of "queer-er than thou" theory. It's a difficult thing to discuss because many people aren't historically/politically astute or they do not have an accurate understanding of Feminism. So, I just say my piece and leave the arguing to them that enjoys it.

[Apocalipstic]

I agree. I find it interesting that, even on this site, people who know us and like us and communicate with us regularly will still use he or hy when referring to Scoote sometimes or call her "brother." They aren't trying to be mean or rude or anything....it's almost like the "politically correct" or "when in doubt" default is to go to the masculine pronouns for butch women.

Not trying to open that can of worms....but it's odd to me every time I hear it. Scoote is butch, and she's a she or a her....not a he or a hy. She's not masculine....she's butch...and it's not necessarily the same thing.

I so agree. I have gotten in SO many arguments over this very thing. Butch Women rock and are not men.

Oh, no! Please don't retreat to the cave now. I think the pendulum is just starting to swing back.

I was shocked and disgusted by some recent comments made by friends who used to live in San Francisco. Apparently, there's something wrong with calling yourself a lesbian there. They were quite certain that they would be mocked and ostracized out of their b-f and/or leather community circles for doing so.

I don't want to brag, but I'm considered kinda bad-ass. I'm a Founding Member of the Sirens, which is the NYC women's motorcycle club that has led the Pride Parade down 5th Ave for 25 yrs., and a longtime member and activist with LSM. (the Lesbian Sex Mafia is now the oldest extant women's BDSM org in the U.S.) I even won a Pantheon of Leather award a few yrs ago. I make a living as an artist in NYC, and I never back down from a fight. Even though the reality of my life is very messy and not particularly 'cool', the externals sure look both cool and bad-ass. From that position I emphatically and relentlessly ID myself as a lesbian, ESPECIALLY when speaking to some kid who thinks that sounds as old fashioned as an African American calling themselves 'coloured'. Then I look at that kid with a VERY bad-ass challenge in my eyes and ask, "Do you have a problem with lesbians?" Not one of them has had the ovaries, or the stupidity, to continue the discussion.

Of course I'm in a far different position than a butch woman would be, but my prickly activism on this subject (hopefully) helps give butches some breathing room to claim a masculine FEMALE ID.

I haven't visited the dash site in more than two years because the overwhelming culture there forced reflexive use of male pronouns on butches, and even calling oneself a woman on that site seemed to be shocking. I'm thrilled that there's been push-back against the de-womanizing of butch identity. Please don't leave now. The party is just getting started.

I hated that about the - site...and about how it was pushed when I first found Butch/femme community. I am glad to see this brought front and center. Maybe, just maybe the powers that be will listen now.

My entire butch life, I've battled against the Freudian proposition that a butch is a "misbegotten man".

Outside of gender preoccupied enclaves, the overwhelming majority of the straight world still believes that butches are wanna-be-men. In my RT lesbian community, this is most definitely not the case. We eschew terminology/neologisms that reinforce dominant culture stereotypes that have RT consequences for us as butch women.

If you take the female out of female masculinity, what does that leave us with? How does that serve those of us who have fought a lifetime for respect as butch women? :|

Labeling butches "masculine of center people" (MOC people), wrings womanhood out of the term butch. Sexual orientation is no longer a defining feature of butch - it's been replaced by masculine gender identity.

I'm glad this schism within BUTCH VOICES has happened. It's shone a light on a dimly lit area that needed full exposure to the light of day. This need not be divisive. What's to argue really?

Why does everyone have to be stuffed, some screaming and kicking, under the same big tent?

I'm content with my lesbian butch, feminist tent. I'm content with others having their gender theory tent. Hell, I'm even content with a Christian lesbian tent for people who sometimes vote Republican. I just don't want to have to room with them. I'll meet everyone around the camp fire, if I'm of a mind to do so.

We are not all the same. We don't all identify the same. We don't all think or believe the same.

THIS IS A VERY GOOD THING ! ! ! !

Let's celebrate diversity - we use to do that and it was great fun. :happyjump:

Diversity makes us strong. We do not have to all be alike.

It does make me sad that somethin that looked like such a wonderful thing for the Butch community is broken, but I agree that this needed to happen.

[Slater]

It's interesting that they have replaced "butch," a historically lesbian/female identity, with the word "masculine." I suppose they think it's more "inclusive." I see this over and over. Being inclusive results in deleting references to women/female.


I don't know enough about the particulars to know what the intentions or motives are, though like you I suspect it is about inclusiveness. So since I don't know exactly what happened or exactly what the motivations were, I will only comment on what I do know, that the mission statement was changed to "masculine of center."

1. I don't like the phrase "masculine of center" to begin with. I will tolerate it as shorthand in casual conversation where someone is referring to butches, studs, transmen, FtMs and all the symantic variations thereof. But in a mission statement? It feels flippant and dismissive at best. For one thing, it implicitly places the entirety of gender identity (or at least the only parts worth noting) onto a single axis with, presumably, "completely feminine" on one end and "completely masculine" on the other end. Besides being ridiculously oversimplistic, it also reinforces the same old more/less bullshit that I railed about (freaking incessantly, I know) over on dash 7-8 years ago.
It's concerning the leadership of the organization is so tone deaf to these issues that they either did not recognize the problem with the language or did not care.

2. When was it decreed that everything has to include everyone all the time. Among it's other problems, "masculine of center" is so broad as to be virtually meaningless. My dad could fit into that 'category' but I'm pretty damn sure that my experience of the world is so utterly different than his that putting us into the same 'category' is absurd.

3. Change the name of the organization. If you don't care about #1 and #2, call the organization Masculine Voices or something. Otherwise it feels like appropriation. You're calling the org Butch Voices at the same time as you are saying it's not really about butches, per se. Have your organization be whatever you want it to be, just don't call it something it's not.

Many years ago, when I worked at the Lesbian Resource Center we had a discussion about changing our mission statement to include bisexual women. I argued against it because I knew we didn't have the resources to develop programming specifically for bisexual women and just adding them into the mission statement felt like tokenism. I argued instead that we should make it clear that bisexual women were welcome to participate in any of the things we were already doing that might interest them. It seemed to me then, and it does now, that the name, the mission statement, and the activities of an organization should all align and if they don't something needs to be re-thought.


P.S. Hi Heart!

[The cute widdle wesbian]

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

[CherylNYC]

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

[Chazz]

I think I understand your point, which is that butch women can come in many forms, but I hope you aren't saying that there's something wrong or un-lesbian about a woman who does have a "buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice". Fortunately for those of us who adore them, there are lesbians who fit that description, too. Frankly, I wish there were more of them.

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

[The cute widdle wesbian]

haha yeah. Two of my best friends in the world call themselves "bulldagger dykes" I believe, they're exactly what I described: buzz cuts and baggy clothes and deep voices, etc, and they're probably the best friends I've ever had, and they're butch like moi. When I was young I thought I was transgendered and wanted to be a boy simply because I wanted to be with women, and I'd never been taught about lesbians so I thought that men were the only ones who could love women. I always get a flashback of myself with a buzz cut and baggy clothes and a deep voice, which was the most unhappy time of my life, when I hear "butch". That's all I meant. I wish that the word "butch" could be more versital rather then defining a certain manly type of woman. I am butch, and I look like a sporty type femme lol, just one of my little annoyances.

[Mister Bent]

<snip>We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.




I think they moved it to Wyoming.

[Heart]

...it implicitly places the entirety of gender identity (or at least the only parts worth noting) onto a single axis with, presumably, "completely feminine" on one end and "completely masculine" on the other end. Besides being ridiculously oversimplistic, it also reinforces the same old more/less bullshit that I railed about (freaking incessantly, I know) over on dash 7-8 years ago.


Yes, this is one of the things that sticks in my craw... the whole continuum thing where some are "further along" than others. Calling it masculine-of- center implies that masculine is the desired direction, so presumably the more masculine, the better. Once again masculine is forgrounded and woman/female is backgrounded.

I've been insisting for awhile now that gender is a landscape, not a line.

Heart
(Hi Slater!)

[CherylNYC]

Oh, we're still around. We're just busy trying to figure out where the center of "masculine of center" is on the butch continuum.

BLEEECK, I hate continua. I never could color inside the lines or walk a straight line.

Perhaps you walk not-straight because of those "manly" steel toed boots?

[Slater]

gender is a landscape, not a line.



I'm totally stealing that.


And just so I'm adding something resembling content and not just posting a confession of word-theft:

I'm a little bit of a mixed bag when it comes to identifiers. I prefer female pronouns (though am not bothered if male pronouns are applied to me in an online setting) but I prefer traditionally male terms like 'boy' and 'mister' over their female counterparts. I identify as a lesbian (though I like 'dyke' better for its one-syllable convenience and auditory impact) but am less sure about 'woman'. I kinda feel like 'butch' goes in the 'woman' slot. Erm ... you know what I mean. Instead of butch being a type of woman (though I do understand that usage, I can't quite make it work for me in my head), butch exists alongside woman.

[Chazz]

I think they moved it to Wyoming.


Well, that explains it. My GPS only goes as far as Pizza Hut. :vigil:

Perhaps you walk not-straight because of those "manly" steel toed boots?


Steel Toed boots?!?! Dang, this is all I got.

http://caytonphotography.com/blog/uploaded_images/twoleftfeet-774606.jpg

[Chazz]

I don't think I could possibly be more lesbian, and I don't resemble a man in any way, shape, or form. Now, I liked reading the post before this one, I'm a butch but only in how I interact with other people and in a relationship. I wish people would get the image out of their head of a woman with a buzz cut and a muscle shirt, baggy jeans, steel-toed boots and a deep, manly voice when they hear the word "Butch". That's exactly what everybody used to picture when hearing the word "Lesbian" back in the day, and I wish that that would go away altogether. Seriously, it took me forever to realize that I was butch and start calling myself that because I'm not a manly looking woman. I'm short and thin and shaped like a woman with an hour glass figure, I wear casual clothes that aren't manly or womanly, I talk with a more high-pitch feminine voice, and yet I know with all my heart and soul that I'm butch because of who I am on the inside. That's all what it boils down to, how you act, how you feel, what you identify with based only on who you are inside. It sounds terribly cheesy but there's no other way to look at it. lol

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

[BullDog]

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

[Jess]

I didn't understand from the very beginning why Butch Voices has always over complicated things. I do think they were honestly striving for inclusiveness and diversity, but were always trying to define things and were constantly trying to add trans language onto butch and come up with long laundry lists of what butch is.

To me the issue is utterly simple. Anyone who considers themselves Butch is. Everyone else at the conference is an Ally. If they want to have a conference for butch, transgender and transmen all together that's a different conference and organization. Let the butch conferences be about the exploration and celebration of all things Butch instead of trying to pre-define it ahead of time.

It would also be nice if the people on the committee did actually identify as butch. I used to constantly get lectured by a committee member who was at least 20-25 years younger than me and that didn't identify as either butch or trans about what butch is.

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[citybutch]

An Open Letter has been posted just as an FYI.

http://www.butchvoices.com/2011-07-open-letter#more-4207

[Chazz]

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

[AtLast]

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/breaking-news-prominent-organizers-break-with-butch-voices-butch-nation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

[BullDog]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

[Jess]

Another statement about thye split- sorry if already posted-

http://sashatgoldberg.wordpress.com/2011/07/26/breaking-news-prominent-organizers-break-with-butch-voices-butch-nation-is-born/

There appears to be financial problems as well in terms of the "not-for-profit" status of BV. Actually, the BV website does not give info on the actual legal filings and "acceptance" of 503(c) status. A good idea to post that info and the locale of the filing as this is a matter of public record. This status can be revoked at any time if an organization does not comply with the tax exempt status requirements. So, even if BV did secure this status in prior years- that does not mean that it still holds the status and yearly audits are required.

There is going to be a lunch-time talk by Cordova during the BV conference in Oakland.

I would rather have this all worked out within one organization. I wish there was a way to do this. Yes, I do often feel overshadowed as a butch woman by male/masculine identifications, yet, I do find this on-going battle heartbreaking and divisive in a very painful and unproductive way.

Without getting into the he said/ she said of that organization or their practices, it does at least appear to me that they have done a good job in the transparency of their financials.
http://www.butchvoices.com/about/financials/

These are very detailed P&L's, which is just about all most folks are really interested in anyway. I would however agree, that if a group ( whatever kind of group it is) states they are a non-profit or not for profit, perhaps they would be wise to address their status ( legal tax exemption) within their mission statement right after they mention being not for profit. I feel quite certain that after all of this pans out, their board will probably do just that.

I don't think they are obligated to "post" any legal filings on a general website unless there are stockholders involved. If it is a matter of public record, then certainly the public is free to look these things up. When inquiring minds want to know...they find out. Trust me, my wife can let you know exactly how easy it is to look up a tax exempt status record ( which is why she is banned from another site which bears no name in this discussion)

It disturbs me most ( in situations like this) that it becomes an unfolding drama of who is right and whom is wrong. Because it always seems to boil down to that. I see this as yet another phase of growing and developing as a community of very varied individuals. Nobody is happy when mommy and daddy fight, much less split up. Within these types of close knit, strongly bonded communities, it feels like that when the "board" runs into an insurmountable difference of opinion. Folks forget they are a "Board" and not mommy and daddy. They take sides.

I don't have a side. I had considered attending the last conference, but wasn't sure if I was a right "fit". I also get very tired of the drama surrounding politics. The politics won't go away, because they are core issues for most of us, however, I can, will and do limit the personal drama as much as possible.

It appears BV will continue and that Butch Nation will now evolve to fill the needs of butches who do not as closely relate to the BV definers. OK. Cool. We have choices.

[Heart]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

[Chazz]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Hasn't it just.

[Apocalipstic]

Okay, so I read the whole thing.

For all the disclaimers and verbiage, Krys Freeman never once actually addressed the issues raised by Cordova and company.

The jocular side bar in Freeman's press release is what cut to the crux of the matter for me: "Sweaterbutches without sweaters."

In this, we are witnessing the beatification of (small-d) diversity at the expense of quintessence. Performance art, haute couture, labels are what now substitute for self-hood. The aggregate qualities and characteristics of who we are as women, what we experience, believe and desire no longer matters. We've been tossed into the stew.

Sorry to be dense, but what is a sweaterbutch?

[BullDog]

If butch women were involved from the beginning, and I believe they were, then who was dictating the terms of their inclusion? Why were butch women not articulating those terms? Why/how did women end up in the back seats?

I don't know the inner workings, but I wonder if the fact that the founder of BV does not identify as a butch woman, and that there seems to be a top-down kind of structure to BV muted the voices of women involved.

One of the things I've learned in the years of anti-violence organizing I've done is that women need to be in the leadership positions. Otherwise sexism takes over. The men I've worked with as allies understand this on a very deep (and feminist) level.

So now, it seems re BV, that women who have been involved are pulling out in order to re-establish their leadership elsewhere. Why they did not have successful leadership roles within BV is not clear. I have also read posts from a number of butch women who did not get on board to begin with because there was a lack of trust in the BV leadership and their agenda.
None of this is addressed in the BV response.

Heart

In the beginning it was hard to get people involved. Joe did do a lot of it, so I believe he was the main one bringing people on board, although I am sure he had input from others.

I think Joe and others who had been involved with conferences in the past had set ways of how things should be structured and how decisions should be made. I wasn't familiar with any of it and didn't like it.

Joe asked me and several other butch women to become involved from the beginning. So yes we were there, but when we voiced our concerns with the way things were going we were told we were being disrespectful to the trans members of the board and being divisive and that there wasn't time for all this, that there was a Conference that needed to be pulled together. Language was added to the website at the time that was suggested by a butch woman.

There was a very successful workshop held by Sasha for butch women/female id'd butches at the Conference and Jeanne Cordova gave an awesome keynote address.

[ScandalAndy]

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

[Heart]

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.

The butch women speaking here are identified as lesbians... and I'm not seeing a debate about the term butch...

But whatever...

[ScandalAndy]

The butch women speaking here are identified as lesbians... and I'm not seeing a debate about the term butch...

But whatever...


Please see below:



Some of our members are having a difficult time seeing the lesbians in our community. Please step up, and let them know you are here.

Unfortunately, here lies the very crux of the issue. What does " B/butch" mean anymore? Who gets to claim it? Who gets to define it? Who gets to pick and choose what reflection of "masculine" thought patterns/ attire/ attitudes are the funhouse mirror that makes up "B/butch?" ( Note: I do not view B/butch as a sideshow, moreover I do believe that some variance of masculinity is involved in defining "B/butch")

I am asking these questions more of myself than anyone else, so please don't think I am asking you ( Bulldog) or any other "you" to specifically answer them. I ask because I see transmen and transgendered folks referring to them selves as Butch or butch, as well ( over the years I have become confused in the mire as to adjective or noun, even, as folks also switch that aspect of grammar around also).

My earliest knowledge of the word "butch" was when I was in the second grade and my babysitters niece ( about 12 years my senior then) called me her little butch. I later was told it meant women who portrayed masculine behaviors or appearances. OK. I got that. It was me.

I hit my teen years/ and then early 20's in the late 70's early 80's and butch-femme was rather passe in the bar/ club scene. Everything was andro. Even then, as andro as I tried to be to blend, I was still a smidge "left of andro", heh. Maybe we need to realign ourselves and our gender speak with the center rather than the ends. Start everything at andro/ ambi then work our way out to our chosen/ self- realized genders, rather than starting with feminine or masculine and working back to center.

I have always had a very clear "masculine" expression, however, I have also always had "enough" feminine expression to be clear that I am a woman. I do not know when, in our community, it became bad or wrong to be that miraculous blend of both energies. I don't know when "andro" and "tweeners" or even "lesbian" got such a bad rap. I only found it when I started coming to butch-femme sites. I have journeyed full circle in the past ten or so years in trying to define for myself exactly where I am in the schematics of the "butch-femme" continuum, and what I have learned first and foremost, is that the more I try to "define" it, the less of a graceful beautiful dance it becomes.

I learned about FTM's and taught myself to use " Syr" in on line speak to note that I was butch but not FTM, as I didn't want to offend any of the very proud FTM friends I had met. I adapted hy/ he/ hym/ him, because ... well, it was easier at the time. Having questioned myself as being trans ( either gendered or sexed) it never really bothered me. Having sir or ma'am being interchanged toward me from people in RT, it just seemed to make sense.

The longer I have been around ( these sites and well, hell, life in general) the less it matters and the more important it becomes. I have tried to have these types of discussions before coming from the place of not understanding why the "majority" should always rule. The majority wants everyone to be included, to the point of often losing the essence of what was unique in and of itself. I do not think that everyone ALWAYS fits under one umbrella. Yes, there may be times and they may be the majority of the time, that we ALL get together on certain issues or events. There should also be respect for those issues and events that are for a unique group to honor their unique qualities among themselves.

I have a lot of thoughts on the notion of the loss of womens space. I have a lot of thoughts on the idea that male privilege comes from the hands, teaching, nurturing of women themselves. I can look to my mother ( and MANY like her) to see exactly how to raise/ feed and nurture male privilege. I digress.

Butch Voices or Masculine of Center Voices is going through the same sort of issues MWMF has gone through every year since 1976. "Who are we and who are we here for?" At some point, someone decides, or a collective decides and then they stick to it or not. I tend to look at things pretty simply. There is a need for A. If there becomes a need for B and it doesn't conflict with A, then mayhaps they be added to A. If adding B conflicts with A, then maybe B needs to start a group/event/ whatever to suit their needs. Chances are, they will both have groups until someone else comes along and says maybe we need an additional one so that A AND B can be together during this one and we'll call it C. This is how things eventually evolve. Unfortunately, it is never without growing pains.

Very happy to see this subject being discussed frankly. Thank you all.

[Apocalipstic]

Please see below:

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

[Heart]

I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

[Apocalipstic]

For me, how we as Butch/Femme Lesbians have been received and accepted (or not) by the Lesbian community at large is germane to the subject of Lesbians....though I agree...not to leaping.

Since I found on line community on line I have been lost with the having to call Butches "he" and the expectation that as Femme I be completely feminine, passive and a home ec enthusiast.

How this plays out politically is very important to me.

[Deborah]

I'm not picking up on cheese, but I am smelling baloney.

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...
:(

[Apocalipstic]

You know I dont understand this whole discussion and have no intent in debating any of this...(never understood why people couldnt just be who they believe themselves to be without someone else judging if that is correct or not based on their definition) but thats not why I am here....if I am wrong please excuse me but did you just tell 'cutewiddlewesbian' that what she feels about herself is 'baloney'.....where I come from that is just wrong....and it bothers me that people just went on debating their position and didnt even notice....I am sitting here shaking my head at how folks get all caught up in themselves...
:(

I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?

[Deborah]

I thought they knew each other and were interacting.

I totally got what cwl was saying and agreed, I tought we all did.

Is she upset?

I dont know the answer to those questions and I may have misspoken...I did go back to see if they had interacted that way with each other before....

like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong.....

Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala

[Apocalipstic]

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

While I do think that organizers of events should get perks becasue of how difficult the work is, I agree that of someone is asking for donations full disclosure of what is happening with the money is the right thing to do.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't know the answer to those questions and I may have misspoken...I did go back to see if they had interacted that way with each other before....

like I said if I was wrong about what I took for dismissal then I apologize...it just struck me very wrong.....

Okay going back to minding my own business.....lalalalalalala

Lol, so many of us know each other in real time I usually just assume the best.

My apologies to cwl! I probably need to be more careful about posting what I think in the body of a thread rather than just hitting thanks or sending a private rep note or assuming people know each other and that interactions are benign.

[Apocalipstic]

While I think we can go too far in denying ourselves equity/payment for work done, and organizing work is valuable, whether it is bringing folks together, providing learning and growth opportunities, or all of the above, I am also personally invested in equality. (long sentence!)

There is a thin line for me in situations like this between entitlement (which is taking, which can also be seen as privilege) and being compensated for time. How do you (general) decide who's work is more valuable? Who's voice is more valuable? (getting back on topic!).

There is a lot going on within this conversation about Butch (all different kinds!) Voices and who's voice is getting heard, and who has been pushed so far to the back of the room, that it is barely audible.

As a Femme partnered to a female identified Butch person, who also has many friends across the Butch and male spectrum, I am personally invested that all of their voices are heard and respect is given. Beyond the financials, it is worrisome to me that it appears that once again, Butch women are expected to subjugate/sit down/be quiet/not create waves because they are somehow perceived to be less than or out dated or passe. It's also alarming to me that there is a reluctance to use the word Feminist.

I am not adverse to "new" language being added to our collective vocabulary. Cisgendered, Masculine of Center, or other descriptors people choose to identify themselves as. I think we NEED more words! But in the process, do we have to downgrade and denigrate those who claim the words and descriptors already in use because they are deemed outmoded? Isn't there room at the table for all voices in the spectrum? Shouldn't there be?

About the financials, I do agree that there should be full disclosure so that these questions are not even asked. I would be fine with volunteer planners receiving an industry wide accepted amount of per diem and mileage allowance.

As to Butch Women and Feminists, you know I agree with you 100%. The table is big and should be inclusive.

What do you think about questions of whether this is more about age than Feminism?

[*Anya*]

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.


I totally agree.

I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different.

20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme.

The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong.

Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history.

What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around.

I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake.

I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans.

[Heart]

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

[Kobi]

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart



What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesnt sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldnt come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

[Slater]

I'm confused. I thought this was a thread for individuals who choose to identify as lesbians, not a debate forum about what the term "butch" means and who should be allowed to identify as such...

Perhaps the butch topic would be better served as the subject of its own thread.


If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.

[OS Butch]

This conversation stirs many things in my memories as a lesbian and butch woman.

Years ago through my employer, we had to attend Diversity Training. In the room there were signs around the room. Age, Man/Woman, Nationality, Sexual Orientation, and several others I can't remember.
The exercise was to stand under the sign in the order of importance in your life. My 1st sign I stood under was Woman. Some where around 3rd , did I stand under the sexual orientation sign, which happened to be right next to the age sign. There was a crowd under the age one and I was the only one standing at the Sexual orientation sign. The guy standing next to me said something about squeezing in to make room in the age group. I said no, thats ok, I am standing here because I am queer as a 3 dollar bill.
Not too long ago, a lesbian woman, very ignorant of the butch femme dynamic, said to me that I made a poor imitation of a man.
At a Butch Femme event, the was a stink about a POC luncheon, because it was for only for POC, not allies or significant others that were not POC.
I am not sure where all my rambling is leading, but these are the things that have popped into my head after reading the recent posts.

OSB

[Slater]

In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:

"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... "

If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include.

If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not.

[ScandalAndy]

What exactly are we supposed to discuss if issues concerning our community are not acceptable? Are there certain areas of being a Lesbian you would like to see?

Even the person who started this thread is not a Lesbian.....so really I would think we can talk about whatever we want to?

To me, Butch Lesbians are Lesbians.

Maybe report the thread if you don't like the content?

I don't understand the problem.

To me, this has been a Lesbian discussion of long standing.

I don't think Jess was debating, I think Jess was speaking to issues related to the Butch Voices controversy that is being discussed here by lesbians.

Sheesh.

If there was a detailed discussion of the term butch and who it does or doesn't include, then I would definitely agree with you that this wasn't the best place for it because this forum would not naturally include some of the stakeholders in such a discussion. Hopefully I have not misunderstood your objection.

But to me it seems like this discussion is mostly about feeling out where the areas of contention are -- defining the issues that need to be addressed, rather than trying to address them. And while I think this certainly could take places in other forums, I don't think it's out of place here, for two reasons.

First, as Heart mentioned, it centers around erasing the female-identified (and largely lesbian-identified) butches and all that is implied in that. But beyond that, I think lesbian-identified femmes have a stake in this too. Even though it is a butch organization, the manner in which it (or any organization in our community) addresses questions/problems around sexism and female leadership and participation is relevant to both butches and femmes.




My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

[OS Butch]

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.


My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

[ScandalAndy]

Seems to me that lesbians, butch, femme, purple whatever the flavor, in a discussion about anything is a good thing. Since this thread started, May 2010 to Jul 11, 2011 there had been 97 posts. Since yesterday, 57 additional posts. Looks great to me. As a butch lesbian, I am enjoying reading what these folks have taken the time to post.

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

[dykeumentary]

sounds good, have at it! I don't really care, I was just pointing out that the title and intro post have nothing to do with the current convo and do not help to direct individuals to it.

Hey Scandalandy, if you don't really care, then why try to be "thread police"? I was the one who bought up this topic in this thread. I neither cared about the intro post nor 'directing people to it'.

It's here, we are discussing it.

Also, I am disappointed with your characterization about our discussion as a "biitch about butch voices thread". I find that language sexist and offensive. Additionally, I call-out anti-lesbian actions wherever and whenever I see it-- on the street, in a bar, anywhere. I certainly don't need to "find a thread" that you or anyone might feel is more appropriate.

It's clear that emotions are running hot on this issue. What is your motivation for being traffic cop?

[dykeumentary]

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

i "identify as such".

[Chazz]

In reading the BV open letter, this, to me is the most telling line:

"Anyone knowledgeable about BUTCH Voices’ missions or initiatives can see that we have, and will continue to, work hard to include female identified, woman identified, and feminist Butches in all that we do ... "

If you are having to work that damn hard to include female-identified butches in a butch organization (and still failing pretty spectacularly, by the looks of things) then you have some huge, core, fundamental problems. Seriously, I can't even believe they could write this sentence like it's an okay thing. It clearly portrays female-identified butches as outsiders that the good folks at BV are trying so hard to include.

If they were serious about this, if they had integrity about this, after the conference they would suspend all other activities until they had this sh!t sorted out. How can anything that Butch Voices does be seen as legitimate if they are, by their own admission, struggling to include female-identified butches? They need to either suspend operations while they restructure and redistribute power or they need to change their name/focus and stop pretending to be something that they're not.

Yeah, we'll see about the "restructuring and redistributing of power and name/focus" business, maybe we will. Then, again....

Okay, let's review....

We know what is happening. We know who is doing it (including Cordova). The only thing left to explore is the why of it.

I think the WHY OF IT goes to the core of Heart's post about leadership and "women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart is absolutely right. The issues she's raises are huge and not for the faint of heart. (No pun intended.)

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

[BullDog]

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

[Chazz]

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it....

Because we're suppose to be big tent people and just assimilate into other people's world view and characterizations of us, silly.

Talking among ourselves about issues of importance to us in a space of our own - how exclusive and discriminatory. :shocking:

[Jess]

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

I am no accountant, however, to ME their P&L's seem pretty detailed. I have looked at other transparent sites to try and compare, and mind you, I am no math whiz, but, theirs do seem to give a more accurate breakdown than most I have seen.

When I made a statement about them and their "non-profit/ not-for-profit" status, I mistakenly misread or misinterpreted what At Last had posted leading me to believe they were claiming to be of that tax exempt status. When I read Goldberg's press release ( which, btw, it always bothers me when someone reports "news" about themselves in third person) she clearly states that they are NOT not-for-profit. The "legal" standing or issues hinted at in At Last's post, was a comment Goldberg made referring to BV's legal standing in asking the volunteer members to sign a non-disclosure/ non-compete contract.

In so far as the telephone,hotel, car, travel, etc expenses, I would be willing to guess they are related to, at least in part, the Regional Symposiums they produce/host. From looking at the site, it appears they do a great deal of hands on out-reach involving different media and different cities across the country. These symposiums generate the majority of their income. They do not set up and run themselves. People are usually sent to events as supervisory roles or representatives or educators/speakers and just as the average working class person can't afford what persons in a better financial bracket might, the extra expense of a trip across country to try to carry the word may be a part of the budget built in by their board, in that BV carries the cost of the members who go "host" these events. I am not a member or board member there so I am simply guessing based on my experience on other boards/ groups, that this is not unheard of or even of questionable ethics.

As to the lack of a line item for "scholarships", there is none. However, they do clearly state on their Financial assistance page ...

"A NOTE ON FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE:
BUTCH Voices is an amazing organization, hoping to put on an amazing conference. While we are able to offer assistance, our funds are not limitless. We have a set budget for financial assistance (we would be happy to share that with you if you are interested in seeing it)."

From the format of their P&L's, I would assume that where a "budget" exists, an actual current and prior also exist. I would also assume that the choice to not post that in their P&L may come from privacy issues with the recipients of those awards.

I m not exactly sure why all of this ( your post) felt pointed toward me, I am sure part of it is just venting. I would like to point out that all I said is that their spreadsheets appear very transparent and clear to me and that IF they are a not for profit, they should consider declaring that. If they have what you view as some sort of discrepancies in their reporting perhaps they are lumping those costs into categories that the details of which are handled in an accountants journal. Who knows??? This "feels" to me very icky. I mean, seriously, our own transparent financials don't even include last years Reunion. At least, as far as I can tell. I've looked through a few admin oriented threads and just can't seem to find it, perhaps I am just missing it. So, I, can't attempt to second guess how their Board has decided to record/ post their business. So, moving on...

The biggest issue I have with it ALL... is that it just feels like once again plain ole butch dykes ( and generally speaking their femme partners/ spouses by affiliation) are being cast aside. It is not just there that it is happening. It is happening all over the LGBTQIA ( is that all of it?) community.

Scandal Andy... my describing MY butch experience(s) is very much a LESBIAN discussion. Here, I'll toss in a leap if it makes you more comfy... LEAP! ;) Sometimes we lesbians Leap for Joy... Sometimes we jump up and down to be heard as our... OUR VOICES are being strangled as much by our own "allies" as those other people we like to THINK oppress and erase us. Even on this site I have seen "lesbian sex" referred to as boring while accolades were strewn for hetero-sex. Interesting, no? Where the hell are we going as a queer community when we are blatantly criticizing lesbian sex over the newly ( and creepily in my world) preferred hetero-sex? This is just an example and not a jumping on someone for some other thread thing.

I apologize if my need to self reveal/ self discover read to you as a defining of butch. I am really, as always, just trying to wrap my head around all of this
ever changing stuff. It is just how I process. In my life experience, just mine mine mine... to be Butch was to be Lesbian. Perhaps that might help you get where I was coming from. It ( heh, the definition of Butch) HAS changed.

[citybutch]

June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.

As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc.

Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover.

I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions.

Thanks for your questioning mind June!

I don't think their financials are transparent at all. There are telephone, hotel, travel, car, food and external conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them. Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed.

And it's their right not to disclose. They are not now, nor have they been in the past a 501c3. Whether or not they are actively seeking to become one is not clear from information on the website.

However, in my opinion, because they are a volunteer driven organization actively seeking donations to further their organization AND they are charging a fairly high registration fee for the "privilege" of gathering together with other "Masculine of Center" folks, it seems to me that they do have an obligation to be extremely transparent in their financial dealings.

For example, I get that organizing is very difficult and time consuming work. Sometimes, we get paid for that work if we're fortunate enough to do it for an established 501c3/NPO. Granted, nobody is getting rich working for an NPO, unless it's a really big one with deep pockets like, HRC. (And "rich" is relative, right?). So, let's say you're an average working class Queer and you want to attend a conference or event, you've got at minimum, the following:

Registration
Airfare/travel
Hotel
Food

I fail to see the fairness if you, as a participant have these expenses to attend the event, and a "few" or less, because they are organizing the event, don't have the same expenses. UNLESS it is stated that a certain portion of your registration will be used for the expenses of the President/Founder/Board Members or whomever. Then you can decide if that feels good to you, and make an educated decision whether or not to support that.

As I have said, ad nauseum, I don't care personally if you make money from the work you do. But if I am supporting you financially and with time, then I want to know about it.

I understand that not everyone agrees with this and lots of people don't care that their registration money is going to pay for someones room service when they are making sandwiches out of a cooler because they spent everything they had to get to the event, but I do care about that very much.

--June

[Apocalipstic]

I totally agree.

I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different.

20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme.

The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong.

Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history.

What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around.

I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake.

I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans.

I really like it that on this website we have a pronouns preferred section, because it is difficult to keep up. On other sites the default was always "he" and I, as a Lesbian, love the word "she" is it relates to Butch.

You are not alone. :)

Age v. Feminism. Hmmmmm.

I am going to be 50 soon. Many of my friends are Lesbian Feminists, several of those are older than I am, so in my local community, I am in a cocoon of sorts. I know that I can be who I am because of the continuous work of others who came before me. I am not sure if I was 30 or younger that I would have the same perspective.

With that said, I am often amazed and in awe of our younger activists, who are out there pushing the envelope with regards to gender presentation and wider acceptance. I often attend gatherings locally where there are numerous gender presentations and identifications going on simultaneously, and I have to say, it's really energizing for me, and lets me gain new perspective and understanding. I don't always get it, but I appreciate it, because I believe strongly that people should be able to self-identify and be who they are. Those that are true to themselves, even under extreme adversity, even when it's not convenient, have my respect.

With that said, as I age, I do see and experience ageism. The lessening of value in the eyes of some others. The use of "Old" not as a descriptor, but as a slur. It's disheartening to me that my voice, or that of others may be perceived as less valuable by some.

There are many different versions of Feminism. I am starting to see us, in this community lose respect for the basic tenets, as I understand them of equality and the fight for women's voices to be heard and respected as much as male voices. For us to be able to use our strident voices without being dismissed as a Bitch or divisive. I might have more on that later, but these are my thoughts for now, Jen.

Maybe it is that we actually remember when things were really different for Women and Lesbians? And that we are so thankful and even surprised things have come so far that the memory of how women were treated way back when is fading?

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

For me, it would work better if the two had separate leadership on some issues and operated hand in hand.

I would like to see Women's organizations headed by Women.

That being said, I can understand how someone already in a leadership position can change their perception on how the identify as they discover their own mind and path.

I have no clue what the answer is, but discussing it really helps us think. :)




What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didn't even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.



I agree with most of you post. I agree we should not all be melded into every Butch being a man...and not just because I dig Butches. lol. It is a different ID than Trans. Completely different.

However, I don't think this thread was created out of a power play in a malicious way. I think Liam was trying to be helpful. I do agree that it seems weird than a man started this thread and that being helpful when no help is wanted can seem heavy handed.

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

What would you like us to discuss? What what would be helpful to you?

Yes I am an out and proud Lesbian discussing Lesbian issues!

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

I think it just did not occur to anyone we would need a Lesbian Zone on a Lesbian website...and then when it because apparent that it was not just a Lesbian website people asked for the Zone and it was added.

I never posted in Dykes to Watch Out for Thread because I thought it was about the comic strip by a similar name and I never read it.

It is all about perception isn't it. :)

Great discussion!

[Chazz]

Still hoping for a discussion of this:

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

This business of leadership style is about how power and control is welded.

The Butch Voices controversy illustrates a top down, hierarchical model typically associated with male leadership. Its authoritarian, elitist, patronizing and pretentious. This form of "leadership" presumes to speak FOR its constituents. Hence, neologisms like: "Masculine of center".

Feminist models of leadership tend to be collaborative, relational, inclusive, horizontal rather than hierarchical, with a keen eye towards power dynamics.

"Study findings indicate that because feminists construct themselves differently from traditional [male] leadership models, they are often marginalized." (Tracy Barton, PhD in 2006 in higher education administration and women’s and gender studies from the University of Toledo)

For further reading on Feminist leadership styles: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/documents/KnightNotesonFeministLeadership.pdf

[Chazz]

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

Ah, the grand melting post of gender.

Who's agenda does that grand melting post serve? :sunglass:


While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

Yep....


In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didnt even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

It is precisely about "blurring boundaries", "invading other's space" and "taking it upon themselves to speak for another".

In academic circles that's called neo-colonialism (it use to be referred to as: The White Man's Burden).


There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

It's NOT about a "new world order coming". It's about the reinstatement of a very old world order.

When are lesbians going to look at these issues through the lens of critical thinking? It will be too late when we get herded into calling ourselves gender screwnicorns?

[Chazz]

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

:confused:

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

[Toughy]

Butch Voices wants to include butch women and female identified butches- on their own terms. It's always been that way.

Exactly Bully..........

I wish they would not call themselves 'Butch Voices' because in my mind they are not.............

[Apocalipstic]

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

:confused:

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

Or that is what it sounds like to me. That being Trans is preferable to being women.

[Chazz]

Carried out to it's logical conclusion MoC ends up being yet another covert way to put women in their places...just like it always has been.

It pisses me OFF.

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming? :)

[Apocalipstic]

What's samatta, you don't like Wyoming? :)

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

[Chazz]

Maybe butch women should start an organization called Uzbek Voices and presume to speak for them.

We'll let Uzbeks join of course as long as they're quiet and do what we tell them to do. And, come to our conferences and stuff.

We'll call them Asians of center.

[Chazz]

I am sure it is quite lovely, but why we gotta move?

'Cause we were told too. Don't be difficult.

You don't wanna be seen as a non-compliant woman, do you.

Pack a bag. I'll pick you up in the Winnebago in ten.

[BullDog]

Well a group for butch women was started on Facebook. Hundreds of butches joined. Of course we were charged with being exclusionary.

[JustJo]

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

:confused:

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)

But wait.... Where was the "center"?

Oh yeah, Wyoming.

Where's Wyoming?

It's right here (a little to the left) in the center... :sunglass:

http://i.infopls.com/images/states_imgmap.gif

Personally, I think Kansas is in the center..... :cheesy:

[Kobi]

I have three ideas to cover here but I need to split them up for clarity purposes.

First, I would love to discuss the differences in leadership style between males and females but I am reluctant to do so in regards to BV specifically.

Aside from the 2 points of reference that were provided to us, I dont know the organization, the history or the players. I suspect there are elements of truths on each side. I dont feel informed enough to be able to speak to their specific hierarchy.

I can say thank you to Chazz for the feminist leadership info....even if it was by a name that I would presume is male.

In my personal experience, I can attest to feeling, witnessing and being part of the difference of leadership styles between women and men. I have found female leadership to be more process oriented and male leadership to be more outcome oriented.

However, the context of the group being lead has always played into the picture. Not all female lead groups are process oriented, nor male lead groups outcome oriented. The purpose of the group or meeting does determine which style of leadership works best in a given situation.

In my personal experience, issues related to women, and in this case it is female id lesbian butches, is best left to leadership by women. Males cannot understand the issues of a woman/lesbian in quite the same way as a woman/lesbian can. Most males reqardless of their origins, still cannot grasp the concept of inherent male privilege. Thats a problem for mixed gender groups.

So, to me, having a male/masculine identity/person speak for me or be a leader for my issues as a woman/lesbian is a huge step back in time to a place I dont want to go.

In the same vein, having a female/lesbian lead or speak for male/masculine essentially straight people would also be problematic.

Thinking one can merge the two into something with commonalities essentially negates the beauty and desirability of their differences. That is problematic as well.

This is a very complex thing.

[Kobi]

My second point has to do with the new world order and no Chazz, its not about women/female id butches taking a step back LOL.

The trans community is growing by leaps and bounds. As more and more folks come to grips with their true selves and take steps to create their true selves it will grow even more. When children as young as 2 or 3 are showing and stating gender issues, it is a reality that cannot be ignored.

Basic change theory postulates that a change in one part of a system requires a change in another. It has to change. It cannot not change.

We have seen glimpses of just some of the issues that need to be grappled with on this site. We have seen issues related to transgender athletes in sports, to bathrooms, to locker rooms, to educational facilities and opportunities, to anti discrimination laws, the Michigan Womens Music festival, Olivia cruises etc.

The part that gets complicated is we have a fast moving changing reality and are ill equipped, presently, to incorporate that into everyday living at a pace that keeps up. Kind of like technology is leap years ahead of law.

The butch-femme community talks a lot about getting rid of a binary system of gender yet we cling to it! Butch femme connotates a certain thing. So one is expected to be one or the other. Seeing not too many guys are clamoring for the femme label, it is the butch label that is taking the brunt of things.

In the new world order, I fully expect butch-femme as we know it will become obsolete. It will take time, in-fighting, a lot of hurt feelings, before something new reflecting the new reality will emerge.

Change is hard on everyone and resisted at all costs. It is the pain/pleasure principle (principle not dynamic). My opinion is, clinging to binary system in butch femme is clinging to the known out of fear of the unknown. So, rather than work toward something new, we are seemingly trying to rehash the old. It's familiar. It's comfortable even tho it is in an uncomfortable way.

Lesbians/female id butches will fight back when they are grouped with male id's. It should be expected. Lesbians/female id's will look/go elsewhere when male id's seek to speak for or define them. It's logical. Women will react when male power and privilige negatively impacts them. It's viseral in this day and age.

It's a process and a very uncomfortable one. But what we have here is a freakin pie. Instead of 2 pieces, you cut it into three or four or five. You dont have to stab at one another or carve out one piece into many. You have to reconfigure the entire pie. It can be a win-win proposition.

We will get there. But I am not looking forward to the process.

[Apocalipstic]

Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.

Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming?

Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual.

Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion.

[Kobi]

The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

There are reasons why female id lesbian butches have problems with being lumped in with males/masculine id's. Seem like pretty darn good ones to me.

[Medusa]

Kobi - Not picking on you but want to use your post as a jumping off point.

I think there are a couple of things going on here but first, let me address a couple of things in the examples given by your friend:



As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

**Actually, I consider "Femme" to be my gender and it's been called into question many, many times out in the straight world, and sadly, in Queer space as well.

As a femme, there is never a question about her preferred pronouns.
As a butch, do I prefer her/she, hym/hy, hir, he/him etc.

**This is mostly true. I am always referred to as "she". Don't ask me about the times when I am referred to as "Mrs." and then someone will inevitably assume my last name is my "husband's".

As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question.
Even as a female id butch, I am outed on sight.

**Blending into mainstream isn't something that feels good to me and I don't celebrate it. It's Femme Invisibility 101.

As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is "less than masculine".
As a female id butch, I am expected to accept a male telling me my new label is "masculine of center" and be happy about it!

**Nope, nobody telling me that I'm "less than masculine", but I'm not the "right kind of woman" by most measures of homogenous society.

As a femme, she has the luxury of varying the gender of her preferred partners. She might add queer to it as a qualifier.
As a butch lesbian, it's women only.

**Varying the gender? What does that mean? Does it mean *I* get to choose who I fuck? Or does that mean that I am choosing what pronoun to call my partner? Or are you saying that Butches don't fuck men, Transmen, or Gay boys?

As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

**While I *am* always a Femme, I am often thrown into a pot with straight women. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with straight females and fetishized pornography.

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.
As a butch I usually am.

**I may not be mistaken for a man, but I am almost always mistaken for a straight woman (unless in Queer space)

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.
As a butch, I did. And with the emerging trans community, the message now comes from within rather than outside the community. Whether from within or without, the message is a slap in the face.

**As a femme, I've never been told I "just wanted to be a man" but I have been told more times than I can count that my attraction to Butches means that I "should just fuck men". That message is also a slap in the face.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.
As a female id butch, the message that I am not masculine or male enough is getting annoying.

**Until she is. The message that I am ditzy, stupid, fluffy, a helpless babygirl, or really a straight woman who just wants her pussy eaten is also getting annoying.




I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

[Apocalipstic]

I get your point Kobi and don't want to lump you into anything, or take away from how difficult it is to be Butch but have to say that being Femme is not a picnic either.

While as Femme we do pass (whether or not we want to) in the straight community, we do not have a comfortable place in the LBGQIetc community.

What if as Femmes we are Lesbians and it's women for us too and the number of women who like Femmes seems to be seriously dwindling?

[Apocalipstic]

ps..and as Butch I bet you are not ever asked if your GF is your daughter even when they are the same age as you. lol

What I am saying is that we are in this together. Butches and Femmes I mean and even though we may be out of style, I think some of us will always be around. :)

[Kobi]

Kobi, just trying to understand your very interesting second point post.

Butch and Femme will be obsolete? Do you think those of us who ID as Butch Lesbians should change to be men and Femme Lesbians should try and change to appeal to straight men or to be closer to center...in Kansas or Wyoming?

Because to me it sounds like yet again feminine women have no place in Queer society which is business as usual.

Not arguing, just wanting to understand how you see this all playing out to its logical conclusion.



I think you misunderstood me.

I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole.

The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accomodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like.

Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them? :winky:

Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/

So, is masculine of center to the left or the right?

[Kobi]

I illustrate a lot of this because I think that there is a message being fed to BOTH Butches and Femmes not only by the world at large but also (as illustrated with BV) in Queer space.

The message is that until we fall in line with homogenous idealism where womenfolk need to sit their asses down and shut the fuck up, we are going to be treated with waggled fingers, a wall of silencing shushes, or heatpatting.

The message is that when we stand against it, we are "Bitches", "Feminazis", "Separatists", "Troublemakers", "Angry", "Humorless", "Crusty", or my VERY favorite..."In need of a good fucking".

The message is that we are not acceptable just the way we are.

The message is that the only "acceptable" is one that values male over female, no matter the context.

The message is that, as Butches and Femmes, we are somehow "broken".

The message is that while we are climbing over the backs of Butches and Femmes to build a Gender Mountain, we step in the face of our own history, our own spirit.

Medusa,

You raise an some excellent points!

As a butch, I seldom see or understand the issues Femmes face in the same way they do. I apologize for displaying my ignorance of your reality.

Does show why one group shouldnt speak for another tho doesnt it? :winky:

The scope of this is quite amazing.

[Apocalipstic]

I think you misunderstood me.

I dont think anyone has to change who they are. Being recognized for who people are is the gist of this entire scenario to me. We all want to celebrate and live as the people we know ourselves to be. We all want our diversity to be respected and appreciated. We all want to be a recognized part of the whole.

The format, in my opinion, is going to have to change to accommodate the new reality and all it entails. And it is going to have to become non-binary in order to achieve that. It will be interesting to see what the outcome looks like.

Feminine women will always have a place in queer whatever. Female and male id butches love em, transmen love em, cismen love em, other women love em. What would we do without them? :winky:

Did you know the most central point in the lower 48 is in Smith County, Kansas, 158 miles NW of Topeka, near Lebanon? http://ludb.clui.org/ex/i/KS3129/

So, is masculine of center to the left or the right?





Thank you for answering, I was so confused lol.

So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations?

I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting!

For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why?

[Kobi]

Thank you for answering, I was so confused lol.

So if we make this discussion into a radio station, you are saying we need to go to one station top 40 of all genres, not into individual teeny genre stations?

I agree that everything is changing so quickly, it is very interesting!

For some reason I was thinking of masculine of center being on the left. I wonder why?

If this discussion was a radio station, I would be saying get Sirius Satellite Radio! We are not in Kansas anymore. It's is a global world out there.

Left? I always equate masculine with the right.

[Apocalipstic]

If this discussion was a radio station, I would be saying get Sirius Satellite Radio! We are not in Kansas anymore. It's is a global world out there.

Left? I always equate masculine with the right.

When I was looking at the map, my eyes went left. Weird. lol
I am sure it means something epimystical. :spider:

Glad I asked, I thought you were saying do away with Sirius.

[Heart]

Ummm, just though of this.....

If butches are "masculine of center", where are femmes?

:confused:

Feminine of center, I guess. (Yet another default position for femmes - sigh.)


See my post in this thread:

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=387264#post387264

[Martina]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]
The last piece here is from a conversation I had recently with a Femme who didnt seem to quite get why I as a female id butch was having trouble with any of this.

Feel free to add on here.

As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question.
As a female id butch, I customarily do.

[SIZE="3"]i have -- because i am a lesbian.


As a femme, she will always be a femme.
As a female identified butch lesbian, I am thrown into a pot with males. My femaleness and lesbianism is equated with males and heterosexuality.

All lesbians are given the you are not a real woman shit.]

As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man.


i am frequently. i am apple shaped. i am also an androgynous femme. Lots of STRAIGHT women get mistaken for men too.

As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man.

Bullshit. i am a dyke. i was told that many times by ignorant people. i was told i just couldn't accept my femininity or my place in the world as a woman.


As a femme, she will never be too feminine.

HUH??? How many femmes have been ignored or ridiculed by dykes for their femininity?????





------------------------------------------

[Heart]

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

[Heart]

As I said, butches are facing unique challenges in terms of the divisions and power struggles currently surfacing between women/female folk and trans-masculine folk. But i couldn't quite let the list below stand.

"As a femme, she never has her gender or femaleness called into question."
I have my queerness called into question routinely.

"As a femme, she can blend into the mainstream without question."
"Passing" involves risk and erasure. It's called invisibility and it's oppressive.

"As a femme, there is no male telling her the new label of choice is less than masculine".
Femmes are female and are subjected to male domination in various forms.

"As a femme, she will never be mistaken for a man."
I will be mistaken for straight.

"As a femme, she never had to deal with the impact of being told she just wanted to be a man."
I will be told I just haven't had the right man give it to me good.

"As a femme, she will never be too feminine."
My femininity will be objectified.

[Martina]

i am offended by that. THat part about feminine women always having a place in queerdom. How many femme posts do you have to read to hear a story about a femme who was alienated from a lesbian gathering because of her femininity. It may be the most commonly shared narrative among femmes.

i also am not loved by all transmen or feminine lesbians or even all butches. Many transmen date men. i have heard a few ridicule femmes with the "ewwww" attitude. And femmes have given me that same "eww" because i date femmes. Yadda yadda.

COME ON. Jeez. i am pretty annoyed.

[Kobi]

Kobi - I don't think I get how your breakdown of the different experiences of femmes and butches is related to the discussion at hand -- (and I have some issues with what you posted), but I do agree that because queer femme identities are not parsed/policed in quite the same manner as butch identities, femmes have not had to deal with the same internal divisions in queer spaces. The post I linked to above in speaks to this in more detail.

Heart

Heart,

My point, and I probably didnt pick the best avenue for it, is simply that female id lesbian butches are being inundated with and pushed out of the picture by male/masculine.

Your suggestion for organizing around issues rather than identities makes a lot of sense to me. These commonalities are less explosive and more global in nature.

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I was a lesbian of the 70's. I didnt see "butches" being pushed out of the womens communities. I did see "male id's" being pushed out and it seemed to make sense to me. I did see the lesbian feminist community become less traditionally defined i.e. less butch-femme/heteronormative imitation kind of thing in favor of a more woman defined forms of existence.

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

[Jett]

"Is BUTCH Voices trying to tell me how I identify, what if I am BUTCH and not Masculine of Center?
(answer)-No, BUTCH Voices affirms the ability for each person to self-identify in a way that fits them best. When BUTCH Voices uses the term Masculine of Center (MoC) the intention is to quickly and succinctly summarize who we are at large. For many in our community, the label BUTCH is not inclusive, but we all unite at our 2nd National Conference under the big BUTCH Voices tent, because of our shared experiences."

If Butch wasn't good enough to "quickly and succinctly summarize who we are" why the hell is it called butchvoices? And what makes "masculine of center" any kind of a better summary especially for women ID Female ID Butches, a lot of Tomboys and the like... or even flamer butches etc etc etc etc etc etc.....? My Dad on the other hand might enjoy the conference, since he'd fit the bill "masculine of center" I'd think better than tons butches for crap sake...

I mean hmmm, duh, it fit a few better who had the ability to change it... I mean seriously, c'mon. Seems like a personal issue of a few that's been thrust upon everyone else... and who loses... the same ppl who've been losing all along.

Sry for jumping in out of nowhere and blahing all over the place but damn, pisses me off... :/

[BullDog]

I know right Metro.

Not to mention saying that butch is not inclusive and then saying they are going to unite under the big butch tent doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't their big tent Masculine of Center?

[BullDog]

Well, there's a letter posted from Joe today:

http://www.butchvoices.com/letter-from-founder

In my opinion they aren't listening. They've chosen an umbrella term that may not fit everyone, but they think this is the best way to move forward. According to him, the reason people have left is due to personality conflicts or because the work is exhausting, and that butch women and female identified butches have always been a part of Butch Voices.

My opinion: they weren't listening 2 years ago. They aren't listening now. You are welcome as a butch woman or female identified butch if you accept their terms and the way they run things. Same for anyone else under the "Butch Voices Umbrella."

[Dude]

I am glad some of this is getting discussed.

I ,as a butch have no idea what it's like to be a femme who looks
straight out in mainstream so I liken it to being seen as a straight man
by the general public at Lowe's for example.Where I currently work.
I dont want to be a straight man.
Who I am is the first butch (woman)
ever to work in assembly. Or back in my 20's, the first butch (woman)
to be hired as a groundskeeper for a school district. Every job I have ever
had has been in a male dominated field.
I want to be seen.
This is me. I am a butch. This has always been me.


In a thread about a month ago someone described butch -as a stopping point.
Really? really.
To what?
The ultimate male? huh?
I have the correct amount of T for me,already.


This is hard for me because I sit on the fence somewhere between tg and butch.
Best way I can think to describe it.
Male pronouns feel like they fit easier than she's and her's but I cant take that
too far as to not live in the reality that I am indeed having a case of
raging butch menopause.

I stopped correcting people because it became the majority who see me as "Sir".
The people that do >see< me for me, are very appreciated.

Femme's who are into butch's have always been the one's to make me feel
accepted and ok just how I am.
I appreciate you femme's who are here saying butch's are still ok.
I'm old ,I'm a butch and I think it's much more than just a stopping place.

[Heart]

I dont understand this:

"And make no mistake, lesbians of the 70s had a hand in pushing butches out of women's communities. This is one of the failures/faults of the lesbian-feminist movement."

I dont understand how it was a failure/fault of the lesbian-feminist movement to pursue a lesbian-feminist defined existence. Is it because we didnt think including men/male/non-female masculine into a lesbian thing was a wise thing to do? Please explain.

Could you also explain what "butch is now seen as too female" means? To me, I like that butch seems to female. Then give butch back to the females. If non females are more comfortable with masculine of center, that's fine. Just dont ask me to be that.

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

[*Anya*]

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

[bright_arrow]

I prefer to skip, but can be convinced to leap I supposeee...

I fall within the 'lesbian' category, but I like femme dyke more :) A redheaded, geeky, curvy femme dyke :1femme:

[tapu]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians. :confused:

[Apocalipstic]

You are so right about this! I have posted that I was very active in NOW until they pushed the lesbians out but then I tried to become more active in lesbian rights groups and my GF @ the time who was also femme (heh, it was before I realized it was butches that rang my chimes) anyway we walked into a meeting one time and a couple of the andro lesbians looked at us and snickered, "huh, I think you two are in the wrong meeting- this one is for lesbians"! They all had big laugh and my GF and I felt really embarrassed".

I didn't fit in with the straight women and didn't even fit in with lesbians!

I had that sort of thing happen to me too...and still do in most Lesbian circles. I am wild and on the lunatic fringe because i am girly. Somehow showing up in a sundress and high heel sandals is more shocking than full latex and a gas mask. It is insane. And God forbit I wear pink to the Dyke bar...

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians. :confused:

lot's of non Lesbians here

[Apocalipstic]

Wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought we were all lesbians. :confused:

Well obviously because all us Femmes know our places as submisive delicate petals. ;)(f)

Seriously, I think its just a different more stylized font. I know the artist and no way does she think Butch should be capitalized and Femme not.

ps...is that your sig line?

[tapu]

I need to be more serious.

[Kobi]

I'm not talking about guarding women's space, I'm referring to lesbian-feminists who conflated masculinity with male and proceeded to push out women who were "too masculine." They also alienated women who were too feminine (femmes), seeing them as tools of the patriarchy, rather than as empowered queers.

As for the other statement, I meant that male-identified queer organizers may be replacing "butch" with "MoC" because they feel that butch is "too female" of an identity to be inclusive. That is not how I feel.

Hope that clears things up for you.

Heart

Heart,

Bear with me while I try and ferret something out in my head here.

From what I am understanding, you are saying the exclusion of what was perceived as extremes in the lesbian/feminist movement (i.e. conflating masculinity with male and pushing out women who were too masculine, and alienating women who were too feminine, seeing them as tools of the patriarchy rather than empowered queers) was a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement.

Is it possible, that the leadership back in the 70's knew in order to successfully rebel against the patriarchy and to establish women and lesbian on women and lesbian terms, they had to remove elements that represented and reinforced the very thing they were fighting against?

Is it possible, that the leadership saw or intuited something they didnt have words for i.e. the gender/identity issues we struggle with now?

Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Is it possible, that they knew a strong matriarchial foundation was needed to withstand future attempts to infiltrate/dismantle/alter it by an insidious, pervasive, and dominant patriarchial, heteronormal ideology?

Is it possible, they knew, without a strong matriarchial foundation, the greatest threat to existence and success could and would come from within?

Given the things we now face, which have been amply described throughout this discussion, it is possible in retrospect, that what is seen as a failure/fault of the lesbian/feminist movement was, in actuality, very prophetic and visionary?

This just keeps floating around in my head and I'm trying to get a handle on it. Thoughts? Ideas? Commentary?

[Dude]

How weird is this ,to (now) feel like a minority
in a place that has butch in the title.

I am grateful it is there for sure but the lean
or shifting to all things male is fairly significant
based upon the support (or lack of it ) in this thread.

Can we be allies without being squashed out at a later
date when we arent quite as needed?
I fucking hope so.
To me it feels competitive almost.

I wish I had a better way to explain it.

[Heart]

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

[Toughy]

Butches (and femmes) ARE women and lesbians.

It should be telling to anyone that if Jack, Bully and myself felt unheard and left the steering committe that something is truly wrong with the picture. My beef had to do with including 'trans' as a target audience rather than an ally. I knew then that butch lesbian women were going to be shoved aside and that masculinity and male would be the end focus.

I can't even finish reading Joe's statements because my head will explode. They really need to change the name to 'Masculine of Center Voices' because to call it 'Butch Voices' is an outright lie.

[Kobi]

Kobi - The exclusion of butches and femmes by some (not all) lesbian feminists was/is based upon un-examined and internalized misogyny and homophobia.

You said: Is it possible, they saw or intuited these gender/identity issues and the ways in which they could manifest themselves, as something detrimental to what they were trying to set a platform for i.e. to allow women and lesbians to develop what they felt was best for them?

Butches and femmes ARE women and lesbians.

That is my answer to each of your points above. There is the mistaken idea that butch/femme are not female/lesbian identities -- and therefore lesbian-feminists must guard against them. But they ARE, always have been, and they always will be female and lesbian identities. This is exactly the point that is being made by butches and femmes here in this thread and elsewhere in these broader discussions.

You cannot claim or appropriate butch/femme from women and lesbians.

I understand your points, and the threats that lesbian-feminists faced politically and socially were very real. Some of what they did was visionary and world-changing, some of it short-sighted or steeped in bais. Many lesbian-feminist circles were racist and did not include the voices, visions, or needs of women of color. Many were also opposed to leather dykes and queer women in kink communities. Point being - they had their limitations - as do all movements.

Heart

Heart,

Thank you.

My best recollection is what occured 40 years ago in my own, isolated corner of the world. I do remember complexities with male id's and those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.

Must factor in your thoughts to everything else floating around my head.

[Heart]

Heart,

those engaged in what was perceived as traditional male/female dynamics.



Perceived being the operative word. Bias and assumptions about the "traditional roles" embodied in butch-femme negated the subversive and very queer nature of butch-femme relationships. An opportunity to unite diverse queer woman was thus lost, and, I believe may have even provoked some of the divisions we see now between transmale and queer women's communities.

This is not to throw blame upon lesbian-feminists of the 1970s alone. There's enough accountability to go around. I maintain that co-opting male privilege, (as in privileging male/trans/masculine voices over women's voices), and unexamined misogyny and sexism in transmale communities also plays a part in current divisions.

Heart

[Martina]

i am not butch. i do not know what has been happening in the Butch Voices organization or beyond it re their mission statement other than the few things i have seen here and on Facebook.

i am not going to comment on it.

i may be beating a dead horse here, but i am still furious with the statements about femme identity. Those should not be allowed to stand. i am not commenting on the Butch Voices issues because in many ways it's not my fight and i have confidence in the butches for whom it is.

But femme ID is mine to claim, and i damn sure want no one, surely not someone NOT femme, to tell me OVER and OVER how easy MY struggle is.

i mean WTF????!!!!!!!!!

It feels like misogyny to have that stand.

[Dominique]

No doubt, it was said someplace....just a couple more things to splinter our community. I thought I was being overly sensitive to exactly what Martina stated. Consequently, I refrained from an explanatory treatise.

Perhaps I am too passionate to express in writing when I am irked.

[Heart]

Martina - several femmes, myself included did not "let it stand." we responded and refuted. I understand your fury. What do you need?

Also, I don't see such a division between butches and femmes re the BV conflicts. Because it is, in many ways, a queer women's issue, and I am a queer woman.

Heart

[tapu]

Butch, Lesbian and Feminist are tenets of our community language and shared culture. When did they become "Bad" words? Why?


That line is signature-worthy.

[Martina]

Thanks Heart and Yellowband. i kind wish it had been removed. But i didn't even report it. i just wanted to see some of my fury reflected here too. Sigh. Man, that upset me. Wow.

Re BV, partly i just know so little about it.

[tapu]

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh? :D

[Dominique]

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh? :D


Is this where I get to express my feelings of feeling invisable?

What do you have in mind?

[JustJo]

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh? :D

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool. :rubberducky:

[tapu]

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool. :rubberducky:


Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

[Dominique]

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!


Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

[JustJo]

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me). :cheesy:

[tapu]

My work here is done.

[Chazz]

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

[christie]

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh? :D

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool. :rubberducky:

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me). :cheesy:

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

[tapu]

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie


My posts are fairly short. You can just skip them.

[Dominique]

when I finally mustered up enough courage to speak, I became even more invisable.....and I even said that didn't I?

[BullDog]

Butch is just not good enough for an organization called Butch Voices.

Even today Joe is on Facebook talking about butch being a term that has been used against people or something that some never identified with and basically that it's limiting.

Well for those who don't identify with the word butch, wouldn't they either be going to a Butch Conference as an ally or not even care about such a thing?

For me, yes some have attempted to use butch in a derisive manner against me, as well as dyke. If any word has been hurled at me in a derisive manner it has been dyke. Guess what I am a proud butch dyke. Those words both separately and in combination are powerful for me. I respect those who don't use the terms for themselves, but I personally do not need to be protected or have some supposed new language invented to protect me (aka Masculine of Center) with words that have no personal meaning for me.

I live my life as a butch every day. I would think an organization called Butch Voices would be relevant to me in addition to other types of butches.

If they want to have an organization that serves a broader or different gender spectrum than butch, why don't they change their name? You know why I don't think they will? It goes back to a few things that Jack and June said. Butch is more recognizable, Butch Voices is their "brand." So they are using the term Butch to build a wider audience because it's more recognizable but their organization is not really centered around Butch. It really does tick me off.

Oh and to suggest the reason people have left is because the work is too hard or there are personality conflicts is complete bullshit. As Jack said it's dismissive and erasing. Jack, Toughy, myself and a few others left for very similar reasons in 2008-09 as Jeanne Cordova, Sasha Goldberg and others did in 2011. We aren't being listened to. They are building their brand at our expense.

You know I do think they are all about diversity and inclusion. However in their branding process they are walking over the backs and erasing a large segment of butches who live their lives every day as butches- every day lives where being visibly lesbian/queer masculine females and women have real life consequences. We aren't somewhere out in gender theory land looking for slogans and brands to protect ourselves or make ourselves into something that we are not. We are living our lives- butch is real life, not gender theory.

[tapu]

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

[Dominique]

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

[citybutch]

June as the person who works on the P&L I will put together some notes together for you. I am currently on vacation and was out on the water yesterday so didn't have service to respond more promptly.

As an FYI, and generally speaking, and as someone who sits on numerous Boards such as the local LGBT Center, a theatre, and on the finance committee on a local LGBT Foundation, professional financials do not go into detail as to who is cut what check when. In fact, it is not even the Board who sees the detailed financials in many organizations. It is the finance committee who reviews the detailed financials and it is the audit committee who reviews the detailed audit. The committees then recommend to the Board approval (or not) after recommended changes are made. The Board (and the community or constituency who is served ) is/are free to ask questions about the details which the Treasurer or other members of the finance committee will answer. To work on a Board of Directors for an organization means there is a lot of oversight over programs, staff (if there is one), financials, building maintenance, etc.

Also, the Board of BV is actively seeking 501 (c) 3 status through a sponsor. It is complicated for this organization because we engage in activity in multiple States. If we were to file for 501 (c) 3 status on our own it would be a complicated and an expensive endeavor... one in which our minimal resources would not cover.

I will be back when I am able to make note of your questions.

Thanks for your questioning mind June!

June, here is a start to your questions.

To start, no one makes any income from BUTCH Voices. Unlike many Boards, the Trustees of BUTCH Voices is a working Board. There is no paid staff. There is a lot of work that goes into all of the events, whether they are regional or national. Outreach to many organizations, Board education, etc are all a part of the work of any typical organization. There is usually a cost to this. In addition, Board Retreats are a very standard practice in order to enhance and sustain a healthy organization. It is nearly impossible to do the core work of a Board when you are spread out geographically. BUTCH Voices Board members reside in Texas, California (Northern and Southern), and Oregon. Traditionally, Boards gather once a month in order to address various issues including but not limited to fundraising efforts, strategic planning, programs, Board structure, organization structure, financials, etc. The BUTCH Voices Board meets face to face once a year to address these issues. Also, regular teleconferences are maintained to stay in touch and keep on course for the organization. There is a cost to getting together to meet and discuss the direction of the organization. We are all volunteers and dedicate many hours per month to these efforts. We do our best to reduce costs as we move through some of the major decisions and look to new and exciting directions for the organization.

Telephone: whether it is between Board Retreats or during times of Board education, there are times we have had to use our personal phones in order to do Board work. This is a reimbursed expense.

Hotel: Board members have attended educational seminars in an effort to gain as much knowledge in appropriate and legal Board leadership skills. Board Retreat costs are kept at a minimum but needs to be reimbursed as well.

Travel: travel expenses for Board retreats are reimbursed as we travel to meet once a year face to face.

Car: In order to do much of our work on the retreats such as site visits, a vehicle was required.

Food: There is a food allowance during Board retreats. Anyone going above that allowance pays out of pocket.

External conference expenses that are not explained as to who benefited from them: If you have specific questions about these line items please let me know what they are and I will do my best to explain them.

Conversely, they say over and over again that they grant scholarships to students and lower income folks, there is no line item about $xxx.xx in scholarship funds being disbursed: 2011 is the first year that grant scholarships have been requested so you will see a line item for this at year end.

It should also be noted that I am a financial planner and a big believer in liquidity. I feel strongly that maintaining a certain portion of our resources to advance the efforts of our organization is important. There are issues for butches, studs, aggressives, etc around healthcare, social justice, and advocacy that the organization has targeted as initiatives. All of these are stressed on our website... Please take a look for more information: www.butchvoices.com

[dixie]

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Perhaps I'm confused.

So....when someone I will (suspect) call an "ally" starts a thread to give us a voice (i.e. another place to hang out and make ourselves known), it's a conflict of interest? To me that sounds as though you are implying that our space should be ours and ours alone, without allowing supporters/allies/significant others/etc who do not identify as lesbian to have any part. Personally, if it is a lesbian space I think lesbian should be the focus but those supportive of lesbians should be allowed as well. (Which also happens to be my opinion of BV, although substitute "butch" for "lesbian" in my last sentence.)

Then again, perhaps it was your yawning (which was just as immature in my opinion as other comments that have been called out) that threw me off a little.

[Semantics]

It seems like there's a lot of policing of threads by members recently based on how people identify and who can post where.

As in "I only want femmes to reply to my thread" and "why is a non-lesbian starting a thread about lesbians?"

And why so many accusations of thread derailments? Some of the best discussions happen because people expand on topics.

Both things seem very divisive and silencing. Can we loosen up a little?

[dixie]

It seems like there's a lot of policing of threads by members recently based on how people identify and who can post where.

As in "I only want femmes to reply to my thread" and "why is a non-lesbian starting a thread about lesbians?"

And why so many accusations of thread derailments? Some of the best discussions happen because people expand on topics.

Both things seem very divisive and silencing. Can we loosen up a little?

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

[tapu]

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

My thoughts exactly. Thank you.

[Dominique]

I guess you are speaking to me Dixie, since you quoted me. I was giving the cliff notes of the thread, as I read it from the beginning and that was how the story unfolded. I didn't post until a few hours ago, and my post, as I said.....went right by like a helium filled balloon......

But since I am obviously not a poster of POWER......I have seen such posters remind butches, femmes whom ever, that the thread they are in is a butch, femme whom ever thread, please respect it....

I have never voiced such an opinion.

So lynch me now, and get it over with.

[Liam]

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

As the OP, I had no attachment to what was discussed in this thread, when I created it. New members complained they were having difficulty seeing the lesbians in our community. The conversation has meandered here and there, and more than likely will continue to do so. At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Yellow Band, I created this thread, I'm not interested in posting in it at all, although I do enjoy reading it from time to time. If folks would quit asking questions of the OP—me, I wouldn't have to. I would have explained this to you via private message, but apparently you do not receive private messages.

[tapu]

At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.


Okay, so while Butch Voices is the topic, no off-hand remarks about leaping lesbians should be made. No unrelated banter exchanged.

I'm not necessarily asking you, Liam. I'm checking in on what I'm hearing.

[Liam]

For the record, once upon a time, I identified as a lesbian—I was one proud dyke, and one proud butch.

[Dominique]

And Liam, your point is? Once I was a straight girl.....read what I wrote....I don't care, I was giving the cliff notes to the thread......

[OS Butch]

Holy Cow! Pretty much all I can say.

[dixie]

I didn't post until a few hours ago, and my post, as I said.....went right by like a helium filled balloon......

Posts come and go. People get on a topic and see certain posts that they want to reply to. Other posts sometimes get "lost" in the midst. It happens to everyone. It has happened to me more times than I can count. That's why you just keep posting, especially if you want to be heard. Eventually, those posts won't go unnoticed.



So lynch me now, and get it over with.
I seriously doubt that extent of dramatic action is necessary on this thread or any other. No one is out to lynch anyone, nor was I out to lynch you. It's conversation/discussion/banter. What I assume you wanted from your posts, hence your posting in the first place.

[dixie]

OK folks,

The jabs and loaded language needs to stop right now.
This is a discussion, not a boxing match.

Yellow band- Every single poster on this website is a poster with power.
We all have the ability to post our thoughts, as long as its done respectfully so please refrain from setting up scenarios where certain posters have a more valid voice than others.

Admin
Sorry Jackhammer. I was posting as you were, apparently. I was just seeking some clarification but will keep to topic. Thank you.

[citybutch]

I can reassure you that no one is getting reimbursed for any expenses outside of Board work. The percentages are available to you on the P&L. But I am happy to go into further detail if needed. Any Board I have ever been on has reimbursed (fed, provided for room and board, etc for Board retreats and efforts.) There has been no additional support to Board members on the BV Board.

And, June, I know you hold no issue with me personally. I hope you know I review all receipts and hold them on file.... I am now nurturing a new set of eyes so it is more than my review and the Boards. Please know that this is a new organization... policies and procedures take time to develop, etc. The initial national conference was only 9 months after the concept was developed. The organization has come a long way... and has a lot to do still. And everyone I know involved is working hard to create an organization that has impact for the butch/stud/aggressive community.



CityButch -- Thank you for your time. As stated above, I wasn't specifically asking about Board Retreats. Additionally, and I believe I talked about this on Sasha's blog, if you are getting reimbursed in ways that others are not, then in effect, you are getting compensation. If your phone bill is paid, if your parking is paid when other participants have to pay out of pocket. If your hotel, food and bar tabs are paid, these are expenses you don't have that everyone else does.

Y'all can do what you want, of course. Make money! Pay/compensate people! But I think that it best serves a community based organization to say out loud, in print how much of their $125-$175 registration is going towards the personal expenses of a few people. I think that way because of the Dash site and the Femme Con, by the way. But I think you know that already, and I hold no rancor for you, I hope you know that. There are reasons why I am fired up about this issue, and it's not like it's a surprise to the Founder of BV, we had this conversation about transparency many, many times.

[dykeumentary]

[quote=Chazz;388547]The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak

[JustJo]

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

Christie, I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone with my comments.

However....this current conversation about Butch Voices and the political, gender, community organizing, "speaking for others" and all of the other serious topics being discussed is happening in a thread entitled "Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians..." and now the conversation (as I understand it) is all about the inclusion of transpeople in a historically butch venue.

I would argue that the current conversation is the derail....and I'd like to get back to folks on the site stepping up and saying "hi, I'm a lesbian."

My description of myself is actually on point....and my light-hearted approach at the serious topic of saying....I am sick to fucking death of everyone trying to define how everyone else "should" be and what we should call ourselves and if we're femme enough or butch enough or what those terms even mean.

i define me.

You define you.

I say let anyone who claims the title butch define it for themselves.

And, just for me and I know I'm more than a little toey right now....I'm going back to my light-hearted lesbian leaping, in a thread with the title of the same name.

Thanks,
Jo, the leaping, cannon-balling, tough as nails and polka dot wearing lesbian

[*Anya*]

I, for one, am glad there is a thread where I can once again be reminded that I am a Lesbian, feminist, femme.

[Kobi]

Interesting how this thread didnt get too much traffic until the post about how butch lesbians are affected by and feel about what is happening at BV.

A 100% increase in pages in just a couple of days! Thats impressive.

I know why the butches are leaping but I'm not too sure why everyone else suddenly wants to leap. It's nice to see tho. :)

[dykeumentary]

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

Thats strange. I posted, but now the post is messed up and a 'thanks' is even gone. I'll see if i can remember it:

Is there some cultural/regional/ethnic aversion to the word "lesbian" among "the deciders" of BV? Anyone have any insight on this? I rarely see terms like "aggressive lesbian" and "stud lesbian" so i am curious. Is there a cultural reason that the word lesbian is being avoided? The "masculine of center" terminology seems like a way to take the sex out of it. Who wants that?

There's the idea that goes "means are the ends, and the journey shapes the destination". I think BV won't end up where it (or it's public relations firm) thinks they are going if their processs continues like they've handled this. Working against oppression requires naming and challenging oppression. BV is acting like its found a "market" in appropriating the word butch (women who continue to be oppressed), giving the word a new definition (one that they feel comfortable with), then having their "work" be paid for by the oppressed people. That is decidedly not liberation, but it might be "intellectual property".

I love the word "lesbian" and all the danger it implies. I'm so glad BV has given us lesbians the opportunity to be seen as dangerous once again. People should go if they want, but I'd rather be fighting oppression than "branding" it. And I'd rather be having hot lesbian sex.

[Heart]

I am mystified about why BV would jettison the word "butch" because it's been hurled at people in a derogatory or humiliating manner. Haven't most words related to queerdom been used that way? Like dyke, faggot, lezzie, the word queer itself?

But I guess screaming, "Fucking masculine-of-center!" doesn't quite work -- so maybe they have a point...? :blink:

[*Anya*]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

[Jess]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."

Thank you. Reminders of why lesbians felt removed from the national feminist/ equal rights struggle are always a good thing. As I have thought about this thread the film If These Walls Could Talk Part 2 has come to mind a few times. Here is a description from Wiki regarding a section of that film that directly relates to this:

"1972
Linda (Michelle Williams), a young student, now shares the house with three friends, all lesbians. They face conflict with the feminist group they are part of when the other women do not want to include lesbian issues despite the fact that Linda and her friends helped to found the group and fought for free contraception on campus with their straight friends.
At a lesbian bar they have not been to before, they are surprised and disappointed to see women apparently fulfilling traditional butch and femme roles. They laugh at Amy (Chloë Sevigny), a young butch woman who is wearing a tie. Amy asks Linda to dance but she refuses while her friends are still there. The others soon leave and Linda stays behind and dances with Amy. Later, Amy gives Linda a ride home on her motorcycle and they kiss. Linda invites Amy to return the next day.
The next day Linda and the others are arguing with a woman from the feminist group when Amy arrives. Linda is embarrassed and is short with Amy who quickly leaves. Linda's friends tease her about Amy and question how they can be taken seriously as feminists if they associate with people like Amy. They cannot understand why a woman would dress like a man when they have fought so hard to escape such stereotypical roles.
Linda goes to Amy's house and apologizes. They sleep together. The next morning Linda sees a picture of Amy as a child, dressed like a boy. She asks Amy if Amy is supposed to be the man and Linda the woman. Amy says no and accuses Linda of being afraid that people will know what she is if she is seen with Amy.
Amy goes to Linda's house for dinner. Linda urges her friends to give Amy a chance but an awkward evening deteriorates when Linda's friends laugh at Amy and try to make her change her clothes. Amy leaves, upset. Linda follows her home and tells her that she was never ashamed of Amy, but only of herself. They reconcile."

If you have never seen the film, I highly recommend it. It has three parts, the above section is the second segment and one of the best filmed ( even if it is fictional) scenarios based on this divisive era.

Regarding what is and what is not "appropriate" content for this particular thread, I feel that it is pretty open to interpretation. The title and opening ( thank you Liam for creating it!) leaves ample room for ANY discussion Lesbians may want to engage in among one another. To conclude it is for just a role call ( hi, my name is ______ and I am a lesbian) is ok, if that is as far as you ( the reader) wish to take it. I have found that generally, after the howdys have taken place, other conversations will follow. I am pretty ok with seeing where the conversations go. It is how we grow.

[tapu]

Fantastic film. I can still see Chloe Sevigney's face when they try to dress her up femme.