Wanting to be a man of integrity: lost cause?

[Linus]

:rant:

I swear. There are some FTMs/transguys I want to smack upside the head for their ignorance, misogyny and sexism. I was one a forum recently (it's a transsexual forum for MTFs, FTMs and androgens). One young FTM posted the following link:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2138852_deal-female-mind-male.html

And was surprised at the response by other FTMs. Apparently he thought we'd all have a good laugh.

Yes, most part of that article is true about women and it should of written in nicer words but it's still true and funny. And yep! Most bio males would give eachother a slap on the back and laugh. I don't know why people on here wouldn't find this funny and become so sensitive about it. I thought we were all males? Is it just me as to having issue with this? I mean, what happened to wanting to be a man of integrity and respect. Why not stand up for someone and not feed into old stereotype; create a new man that can be a man while recognize and fight against the "isms" of the world?

Or am I just smoking some weird cigars??

[Ursy]

Ha, no, it's not just you. I have a lot of respect for people with integrity. It's not a lost cause if you ask me :)

At least you said he was surprised by the response from other FTMs - that would make him the minority.

You did say he was young, maybe he will learn, in time.

From what I've seen, some (thankfully not many) of the young transguys do go through some kind of period of exaggerated male posturing (I'm not talking about on the forums, if you're wondering) - maybe it's something they have to process in order to find themselves... hopefully it's just a phase.

I'm also pretty horrified that the author of that article you linked to is a woman... wtf?!
I might understand if it's tongue in cheek or meant to be humorous. If it was, it was totally lost on me.

[suebee]

I'm going out on a limb here, having little rt contact with transmen, but I'm going at it from a developmental point of view. Most biomale children and adolescents DO get a slap upside the head - whether litteral or figurative - from the women, and hopefully the men in their lives when their posturing goes too far. It occurs to me that many if not most trans guys don't have the chance to be accepted as a male as a child or adolescent and therefore are "trying on" their maleness at a later age. Thus, the posturing you're talking about in their twenties and maybe beyond. Does this make any sense to you Linus?

ETA: I guess their male socialization has to come from guys like you Linus.

[Linus]

What both of you say makes sense but that doesn't justify nor excuse it. I've met plenty of young transman who have better integrity and purpose than this guy does.

[suebee]

ORRRRRRRRR..... it could just be that he's a mysogynistic idiot who's going to go through life with his head up his.....:birthday:

[UofMfan]

Integrity, it is a lost art form, I see very little of it lately.

[Ursy]

What both of you say makes sense but that doesn't justify nor excuse it. I've met plenty of young transman who have better integrity and purpose than this guy does.

Very true, it doesn't justify or excuse it... but then, who knows what set of circumstances this guy is a product of (did that even make sense?)

But back to the topic - I agree with UofMfan. I do think that integrity is less common these days than it used to be.

Everything seems to be declining somehow. I do think society is being "dumbed down" - I was watching a report on the news just last week, how literacy levels are steadily worsening over the years (this is in Australia, I imagine it's similar in the U.S.). Standards are slipping. What passes for news these days would have been considered infotainment and/or sloppy journalism 20 years ago. More and more is being aimed at the lowest common denominator. I think it's all related.

[suebee]

I don't know if this is part of it or not, but a major beef of mine is that basic manners don't seem to count as much as they used to. Individualism has seemed to take over in many ways. One pet peeve of mine is that students often call their teachers by their first name. I think this eliminates the number one way of teaching children that different rules apply in different social situations.

I also think that there is still some backlash from the age that I grew up in: that being the heydays of grassroots feminism. I think in in some ways this gives rise to a whole new class of mysogyny. Or maybe it's just the same-ole same-ole, but looks different to those of us that hoped some of the battles were won.

[little man]

our society has lost its finesse

[Martina]

I'm going out on a limb here, having little rt contact with transmen, but I'm going at it from a developmental point of view. Most biomale children and adolescents DO get a slap upside the head - whether litteral or figurative - from the women, and hopefully the men in their lives when their posturing goes too far. It occurs to me that many if not most trans guys don't have the chance to be accepted as a male as a child or adolescent and therefore are "trying on" their maleness at a later age. Thus, the posturing you're talking about in their twenties and maybe beyond. Does this make any sense to you Linus?

ETA: I guess their male socialization has to come from guys like you Linus.

A friend of mine -- a cisgender man -- has always made that point. He says that being raised a man, your mother, sisters, and first girlfriends socialize you pretty thoroughly about what you can and cannot say without being an ass. A couple of his gay make friends have dated transmen, and he has worked in lgbtq organizations.

His point was that some transmen outraged his sense of propriety about what a man should and should not say about women. He said that the guys he met stood out as different from cisgender men, not because of how they looked or anything other than that.

[Jet]

:rant:

I swear. There are some FTMs/transguys I want to smack upside the head for their ignorance, misogyny and sexism. I was one a forum recently (it's a transsexual forum for MTFs, FTMs and androgens). One young FTM posted the following link:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2138852_deal-female-mind-male.html

And was surprised at the response by other FTMs. Apparently he thought we'd all have a good laugh.

Is it just me as to having issue with this? I mean, what happened to wanting to be a man of integrity and respect. Why not stand up for someone and not feed into old stereotype; create a new man that can be a man while recognize and fight against the "isms" of the world?

Or am I just smoking some weird cigars??


It's not a lost cause, Linus. To me, its a large part of what makes a man along with an ethics and value system. I've seen Ftms be assoholes just to try and prove that they're macho - as if that's the manly thing to do. They need their asses kicked with a wake up call.

[Nat]

I've met one transman like this in person and another online. I've met some cismen like this too, but not so many. Thankfully, I think they are far outnumbered by those who do have integrity and respect.


"People pay for what they do, and still more for what they have allowed themselves to become. And they pay for it very simply; by the lives they lead."

- James Baldwin

[Dylan]

I'm wondering a few things

A) Why is this article being particularized to transmen in this thread? I assume, it's because of the comment Linus read on a trans site.

Ok, fair enough.

But, I've got a nickel says, had you put this out on the site and changed the 'man' to butch and 'women' to femme, the article would have elicited the same commentary, and there would be one camp saying, "It's funny" and there would be one camp saying, "This is offensive".

Just
Like
Always
Happens
When these stupid things are ripped off the internet. We haven't seen an influx of these types of things in a while on these sites, but I'm sure everyone, in this thread at least, remembers how frequently they've shown up.

I'm sure if you posted this article on a cis, straight website, there would probably be the same camps, altho the ratios per camp might be different.

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors and genders who would find this article incredibly humorous...as have ALL of us.

So, seriously, I'm not understanding why transguys are apparently expected to have 'more integrity' or 'respect'. I'm also not understanding why transmen would be ANY more 'expected' to not play into stereotypes or fight against isms than anyone else. I mean, everyone *should* be doing this, no? Yet, there are people who don't across ALL genders and IDs...so, yeah, I'm not getting it. Transpeople's very existence is fighting against an ism (as are many other people's). So...yeah...I'm not understanding


2. Another thing I'm not understanding is why, if this thread is in the trans zone, why so many cispeople of another sex are pontificating about the experiences of transmen...how they *should* act or how they *should* be 'taught'. I mean, wouldn't just about any child get 'smacked upside the head' (usually by the women in their lives) if they came home with these attitudes or said the wrong thing about women? Shouldn't it be that way? And again, isn't it awfully cissexist to assume transpeople have been socialized a certain way (did or didn't get certain 'trainings' as a child)? I wouldn't let my kid say stupid shit no matter their gender. I wasn't allowed to say certain things in the house or around the women in my family, and it had nothing to do with gender or ID...it had to do with being disrespectful.

3. I am confused, Linus, by your use of the word 'integrity'. I'm not trying to play the Semantics Game, because I actually hate that game, but I am just wondering what you mean by 'integrity'.


I Had Another Point,
Dylan

[Dylan]

A friend of mine -- a cisgender man -- has always made that point. He says that being raised a man, your mother, sisters, and first girlfriends socialize you pretty thoroughly about what you can and cannot say without being an ass. A couple of his gay make friends have dated transmen, and he has worked in lgbtq organizations.

His point was that some transmen outraged his sense of propriety about what a man should and should not say about women. He said that the guys he met stood out as different from cisgender men, not because of how they looked or anything other than that.

That's interesting

Because I have a friend of mine, also a cisgender man, who has always made the point that butch lesbians really just want to be men. He often tells me about his history with his mother and sisters and first girilfriends and he too relates this to how butch lesbians are socialized and how they act.

Isn't that crazy?


Or Was Your Point Something Different?,
Dylan

[Linus]

I'm wondering a few things

A) Why is this article being particularized to transmen in this thread? I assume, it's because of the comment Linus read on a trans site.

Ok, fair enough.

But, I've got a nickel says, had you put this out on the site and changed the 'man' to butch and 'women' to femme, the article would have elicited the same commentary, and there would be one camp saying, "It's funny" and there would be one camp saying, "This is offensive".


I dunno about that but I hope not. I would imagine there would be far more outraged than supportive but I'm guessing on that.


I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors and genders who would find this article incredibly humorous...as have ALL of us.

I didn't find it funny. If anything I found it suggesting that all women are manipulating, conniving liars. Are you saying that's true? Humour can be done well without making generalizations like that.

So, seriously, I'm not understanding why transguys are apparently expected to have 'more integrity' or 'respect'. I'm also not understanding why transmen would be ANY more 'expected' to not play into stereotypes or fight against isms than anyone else. I mean, everyone *should* be doing this, no? Yet, there are people who don't across ALL genders and IDs...so, yeah, I'm not getting it. Transpeople's very existence is fighting against an ism (as are many other people's). So...yeah...I'm not understanding

Yes, all should be doing this but I asked here specifically to get a trans point of view. I had wondered if I had missed something. I thought that perhaps because of my personal life experience that perhaps I didn't quite get how it is "true" since I find none of true.

3. I am confused, Linus, by your use of the word 'integrity'. I'm not trying to play the Semantics Game, because I actually hate that game, but I am just wondering what you mean by 'integrity'.

It was something that a transman in a support group once said that resonated with me. He said that he would always strive to be a "man of integrity". That is, ensure that what he believes and what his actions are matches; and, that he would fight against a variety of 'isms' that have meaning to him based on his past. When we discussed it, it hit home as something that I have been trying to live by but could not articulate.

Does that help?


P.S. I cannot answer/address #2 since I do not feel it applies. If I missed something, let me know.

[Martina]

That's interesting

Because I have a friend of mine, also a cisgender man, who has always made the point that butch lesbians really just want to be men. He often tells me about his history with his mother and sisters and first girilfriends and he too relates this to how butch lesbians are socialized and how they act.

Isn't that crazy?


Or Was Your Point Something Different?,
Dylan

i don't get your point Dylan, but i am not going to argue about it. We've done this one before. i think there's something to my friend's argument. i know it offends you. Maybe it is transphobic. i'll keep thinking about it.

[Dylan]

i don't get your point Dylan, but i am not going to argue about it. We've done this one before. i think there's something to my friend's argument. i know it offends you. Maybe it is transphobic. i'll keep thinking about it.

My point is, using another person's voice who isn't part of the community you're dissecting is offensive

Just as offensive as if I were to use a man's random pontifications about why women act the way they do or using a straight person's pontifications about why queers do what they do.

Especially if you yourself are NOT part of the community you're speaking about

Dylan

ETA: Also using one person's voice as a spokesperson for all is also offensive

[Martina]

My point is, using another person's voice who isn't part of the community you're dissecting is offensive

Just as offensive as if I were to use a man's random pontifications about why women act the way they do or using a straight person's pontifications about why queers do what they do.

Especially if you yourself are NOT part of the community you're speaking about

Dylan

i see your point, but i don't know. i do seek an explanation for what has been my experience. i don't know. i still don't know.

[Dylan]

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors and genders who would find this article incredibly humorous...as have ALL of us.

Dylan

Ew

Let me clarify this sentence as this sentence is horribly worded and really gives off the wrong idea

I meant

I've met cisfolks and transfolks of all flavors, genders, and sexual proclivities who would find this article incredibly humorous...as ALL of us have met people who would feel that way.

I really really really did NOT mean to suggest, "We ALL found this article incredibly humorous"

Gahhhhh, I soooooooo did not mean that at all.

Sorry for the poor grammar and sentence structuring


Mahhh Bad,
Dylan

[AtLast]

One of my first questions about this has to do with the age of the individual making the statements... how young? Human development and stage of life issues might have a lot to do with it. And would no matter the gender of a person.

In reading this, sure, I am offended in various ways. However, I can't throw what is offensive to me at the whole of transmen.. or even cismen. Just can't.

Ah, shit, I might be ageist! And I also feel that integrity & honor simply belong to the human condition and are not gender specific.

[Dylan]

I dunno about that but I hope not. I would imagine there would be far more outraged than supportive but I'm guessing on that.




I didn't find it funny. If anything I found it suggesting that all women are manipulating, conniving liars. Are you saying that's true? Humour can be done well without making generalizations like that.



Yes, all should be doing this but I asked here specifically to get a trans point of view. I had wondered if I had missed something. I thought that perhaps because of my personal life experience that perhaps I didn't quite get how it is "true" since I find none of true.



It was something that a transman in a support group once said that resonated with me. He said that he would always strive to be a "man of integrity". That is, ensure that what he believes and what his actions are matches; and, that he would fight against a variety of 'isms' that have meaning to him based on his past. When we discussed it, it hit home as something that I have been trying to live by but could not articulate.

Does that help?


P.S. I cannot answer/address #2 since I do not feel it applies. If I missed something, let me know.

Cool. Thank you for your responses.

My personal pontification is that (as with many previous posts of a similar nature where man/woman was exchanged with butch/femme) it would be about 50/50. Welllll, wait, because about 4ish years ago, it would have been about 50/50. I'm gonna hazard a guess that it would be more 70ish against the article and 30ish in favor of the article. I'm changing that from 50-50, because in recent years, we really haven't seen as many of these articles popping up, and I don't know if that's because people's minds have changed, of if it's because the people who find it humorous have decided to shut up about it. But based on previous threads a few years ago, it used to be about 50-50.

Thank you for explaining the integrity part. That does make it more clear.


Much Appreciated,
Dylan

[Dylan]

Linus,

From a personal place, I don't necessarily agree with the article...but then, I'm also wondering if that's not for me to say, since it was written by a women about women.

Where's that line?

I mean, if I were to read an article written by, say, a person from a culture that's not mine, is it then my place to say the article is offensive to that group?

Example: Is it my place to say, Chris Rock's humor is racist? I'm being serious...I wonder.


Dylan...I also find the article cis-sexist, and I wonder if applying it to trans people perpetuates cissexist attitudes. But again...I wonder many things. I'm not cis-sexed, and expecting One to conform to (or get 'the humor' of) cis-sexed society seems a little like...perpetuating cissexist views and mentalities. Does that makes sense?

[Dylan]

My point is, using another person's voice who isn't part of the community you're dissecting is offensive

Just as offensive as if I were to use a man's random pontifications about why women act the way they do or using a straight person's pontifications about why queers do what they do.

Especially if you yourself are NOT part of the community you're speaking about

Dylan

ETA: Also using one person's voice as a spokesperson for all is also offensive

I'd also like to add that it's offensive to assume all transpeople have been socialized a certain way (I.e. not being taught the same way/things as the dominant/oppressing group)

As is expecting the oppressed group to 'act' the same way as the dominant/oppressing group.


Sorry For Continuing To Add And Clarify, But The Phone Rang And I Got Sidetracked,
Dylan

[Linus]

Linus,

From a personal place, I don't necessarily agree with the article...but then, I'm also wondering if that's not for me to say, since it was written by a women about women.

Where's that line?

I mean, if I were to read an article written by, say, a person from a culture that's not mine, is it then my place to say the article is offensive to that group?

Example: Is it my place to say, Chris Rock's humor is racist? I'm being serious...I wonder.


Dylan...I also find the article cis-sexist, and I wonder if applying it to trans people perpetuates cissexist attitudes. But again...I wonder many things. I'm not cis-sexed, and expecting One to conform to (or get 'the humor' of) cis-sexed society seems a little like...perpetuating cissexist views and mentalities. Does that makes sense?

We believe it's a woman. Until I meet the author in person, I cannot know one way or another. Regardless of who wrote it, doesn't mean it needs to be continued and propagated elsewhere. There are lots of weird stuff on the Internet and thanks to sites like Snopes, we're able to find truth (or falsehoods) in many of those things. I do not have to take it at face value as being true.

Now, as to whether I can speak for women, true. I may not being a position to speak on behalf of women but I can certainly speak on behalf of myself, as a man, how it bothers me and how I feel it's inaccurate and full of stereotypes.

[Ursy]

2. Another thing I'm not understanding is why, if this thread is in the trans zone, why so many cispeople of another sex are pontificating about the experiences of transmen...how they *should* act or how they *should* be 'taught'. I mean, wouldn't just about any child get 'smacked upside the head' (usually by the women in their lives) if they came home with these attitudes or said the wrong thing about women? Shouldn't it be that way? And again, isn't it awfully cissexist to assume transpeople have been socialized a certain way (did or didn't get certain 'trainings' as a child)? I wouldn't let my kid say stupid shit no matter their gender. I wasn't allowed to say certain things in the house or around the women in my family, and it had nothing to do with gender or ID...it had to do with being disrespectful.


Sorry if you don't think cisgendered people should be participating in the discussion, Dylan.

I did wonder whether, being in the Trans zone, I really should reply. But that's kinda why I didn't concentrate on the "Trans" aspect, more on the "people" and "society" aspect - and just hoped it was still useful to Linus.

[Dylan]

We believe it's a woman. Until I meet the author in person, I cannot know one way or another. Regardless of who wrote it, doesn't mean it needs to be continued and propagated elsewhere. There are lots of weird stuff on the Internet and thanks to sites like Snopes, we're able to find truth (or falsehoods) in many of those things. I do not have to take it at face value as being true.

Now, as to whether I can speak for women, true. I may not being a position to speak on behalf of women but I can certainly speak on behalf of myself, as a man, how it bothers me and how I feel it's inaccurate and full of stereotypes.

Or maybe it's true for this woman's perspective and some people she knows personally.

Again, I'm not cis-sexed, nor do I date many straight women (for whom this article speaks), so, eh...who knows.

I think it definitely promotes heterosexist and cis sexist norms and standards, and I choose not to participate in perpetuating those standards.

I'm not arguing with you...just conversing.


Dylan

[Linus]

Or maybe it's true for this woman's perspective and some people she knows personally.

Again, I'm not cis-sexed, nor do I date many straight women (for whom this article speaks), so, eh...who knows.

I think it definitely promotes heterosexist and cis sexist norms and standards, and I choose not to participate in perpetuating those standards.

I'm not arguing with you...just conversing.


Dylan


Oh I know. :) And I like the conversation. Makes my mind work and understand better. :cheesy:

[Dylan]

I really do wonder at what point a man is 'allowed' to call out a woman (again, assuming it's a woman author) for saying something sexist.


Yanno What I Mean?,
Dylan