Sex, Gender, or Sexual Orientation

[Darth Denkay]

Currently threads addressing various identities are really prolific around here - which is a good thing. I read a number of them, but haven't participated much because I can only get on the site every few days so I stay a day or two behind. In any case, I've noticed a commonality that runs through many of the threads. We use identity labels as we understand them, but we don't understand them all the same, which makes it difficult for us to clearly communicate with each other. In particular, one poster may be referencing sex while another reads it as gender so we're frequently not on the same page.

To illustrate, I'm going to offer my conceptualization of a number of identities. I am not insinuating that these are the only understanding for each term, but I expect that folks will read through them and think "whoa, that's not how I use that term". So I give you Kayden's identity jargon.

First we have Sex, which I understand as a biological manifestation. There are three broad sex categories (in MY mind remember): female, male, and intersex. These identities are based on chromosomal makeup, hormone levels, genitals, and additional secondary sex characteristics. We're raised to buy into, really, a 2-sex binary, since intersex often isn't included. So when I read male or female, I interpret those terms as either referring to biological sex at birth, or a marker used by trans individuals. Chromosomes match genitalia in most cases, although intersex and trans folks prevent this being an absolute (which is a good thing!). I identify as female. My genitalia are female - I know you all really needed to know that. As far as I know, I have an X and a Y chromosome. I know my testosterone levels are extremely high for females (I don't take hormones, never have). In any case my sex is female.

Next we have Gender. I understand gender as an internal sense of self, related to sex but not bound by it. We are raised to believe in a binary gender system, female=woman and male=man. Our community busts that right open. We understand at least two additional genders - femme and butch (and we use other terms as well - two-spirit, third gender, other gender - but for simplicity's sake I'm going to stick to butch and femme). I identify as butch. In our community I associate butch with female. This is an assumption I make, that those who identify as butch are female (physically). If someone does not fit this description, then I am likely going to misunderstand their identity. Neither of us is right or wrong, but I see butch through a female lens, so I am going to assume that the butch in question is female-bodied. With femmes it becomes a little more complicated, because I can't assume that femme automatically means female, at least not in the sense of biological birth. Most femmes, I assume, are female by birth, but some are male or intersexed at birth so again, it's not an absolute. This is the reason I've never identified as a female butch - for me, butch assumes female.

Next we come to the gender descriptors, masculine and feminine. We are raised to associate masculine with male (and also equate that with man) and feminine with female (equated with woman). Once again, our community demonstrates that we can't make this assumption as butches possess masculinity proudly as females, femmes demonstrate femininity sometimes in a profoundly different way than females who do not identify as femme. And I'm not even going to address how femmes can demonstrate masculinity and butches femininity because then it gets ever so much more complex. Which is also why all of this can be colossally confusing. I identify as a masculine entity, just for the record. I'm also not going to go into man and woman, again because I don't really want to write a dissertation, and I doubt you want to read one. In my case, neither man or woman. Just masculine.

Trangender. This identity, to my mind, encompasses both sex and gender. In very simple terms, it is when one's sex and gender do not coincide the way that our binary sex/gender system expects them to. For some this may mean not identifying as man or woman, but not desiring to and/or taking any steps to change one's physical sex. For others, this means altering physical sex (if they are able) to match their sense of man or woman. I used to identify as trans, but I quit, basically because I didn't believe that term was adding any additional, useful information to my identity markers.

Sexual orientation. We have at least four categories here: heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, and asexual. Some folks use other terms as well (such as dyke, man who has sex with men, woman-loving-woman) but again let's keep this sorta simple. We tend to assume that folks on this site fall outside of the heteronormative box, particularly as gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Of course, some of us may identify as gay/lesbian/bisexual when we arrive here, but as we become who we truly feel we are it is certainly possible we might embrace heterosexual. However, this heterosexual is qualitatively different from the heteronormative one (again, in my mind). Is sexual orientation related to sex or gender. I think we all understand it differently. However, it is attraction/behavior, which in my mind is related to sex and gender there is no one-to-one connection (i.e. masculine females must be homosexual).

Are you tired of reading yet. Are you even still reading? Okay, one more. Queer. Some folks use queer to describe their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, bisexual, all could be queer. Others use queer to describe their gender, simplistically not man or woman. In my mind, pretty much everyone on the site is queer - given my understanding of the term - although I know there are folks who don't identify as queer. And frankly, I don't spend any time going through the member list - queer, queer, definitely queer, queer, goose - but this term certainly can cover many identities.

Okay, I'm going to stop now. I just read over it, I think it makes sense. Not sure if this will spur any discussion, but I've been mulling over these terms for a while now so wanted to toss them out. This stuff can be really dense. And since we do not all use these terms in the same way, some of our misunderstandings are based in different conceptualizations of the same terms. Thanks for reading.

[DapperButch]

Ummmm..........yep.

[Dylan]

I agree with almost all your points

I disagree with butches are female

And I also use transsexed to denote the difference between transgender and transsexed folks. I think using the term transgender as an umbrella term gets confusing, especially when talking in groups where members are transgendered, or transsexed, or both.


Dylan

[Andrew, Jr.]

I just say we are all human beings, and reaching out to each other for love. We are family. How someone id's is a personal choice.

Andrew

[Queerasfck]

I just say we are all human beings, and reaching out to each other for love. We are family. How someone id's is a personal choice.

Andrew





Umm, no I don't think it's a choice.

[DapperButch]

I agree with almost all your points

I disagree with butches are female

And I also use transsexed to denote the difference between transgender and transsexed folks. I think using the term transgender as an umbrella term gets confusing, especially when talking in groups where members are transgendered, or transsexed, or both.


Dylan

I agree. The terms are very, very often used interchageably/inaccurately, which is useful to NO ONE.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Imho, everyone goes on their own journey to figure out if they are glbt or straight.

[apretty]

i'm queer by choice.

[Darth Denkay]

Hi Dylan,

Thanks for adding transsexed to the pot. I didn't think to include it. I use the term transsexed in the same way that you do (I think), which leaves transgendered as an umbrella term, as you said, that can be very confusing.

Thanks again.

I agree with almost all your points

I disagree with butches are female

And I also use transsexed to denote the difference between transgender and transsexed folks. I think using the term transgender as an umbrella term gets confusing, especially when talking in groups where members are transgendered, or transsexed, or both.


Dylan

[Linus]

I just say we are all human beings, and reaching out to each other for love. We are family. How someone id's is a personal choice.

Andrew



Umm, no I don't think it's a choice.

Actually, I'd disagree, Ez. The actual term we use to define ourselves is the choice (e.g., I use transman while others just use man and yet others use tranny fag). The reason for who we are isn't. (My body and mind do not match)

I think that's what Andrew might have been referring to.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Linus,

Thank you for your help explaining what I was trying to get out.

Love,
Andrew

[Nat]

To me, the line between sex and gender is a little blurry just because I can't help but think that there is a biological component often to a person's gender experience, and once biology enters the picture - is it really sex or gender?

[Queerasfck]

Actually, I'd disagree, Ez. The actual term we use to define ourselves is the choice (e.g., I use transman while others just use man and yet others use tranny fag). The reason for who we are isn't. (My body and mind do not match)

I think that's what Andrew might have been referring to.

Maybe that is what he meant to say Linus but you could read the comment more than one way.
If you and Andrew are speaking strictly about one's own terminology then I would completely agree.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am pretty sure that I was born Queer...

[Nat]

And to me there is an element of choice in "ID" that is different from the lack of choice involved in experience.

Am I a femme because I don't have a choice or am I a femme because I claim femme? I choose to claim the term femme because it fits me, but to me it's still a choice to have "femme" as my ID.

It is my experience that I feel both male and female. It is a choice whether I make that part of my ID. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. My choice as to whether to make it part of my ID is informed by my experience but also by other factors - social, political, personal.

I meet people *I* would think are butch, but it's not my call. I think it's the choice to claim an ID that gives you ownership of that ID. I don't know how a person IDs without making a choice.

I am innately queer, but I don't think my ID is queer until I make the choice to own my queerness.

Then again, that's what this thread is about - our different definitions.

[Queerasfck]

I am pretty sure that I was born Queer...

I agree Lady Snow. As far back as I can recall I was a big queer. I have no problem looking back and knowing that now. But when I was younger and it was actually happening I was pretty oblivious to my attraction to girls .

[Queerasfck]

I meet people *I* would think are butch, but it's not my call.

I was one of those people.

:|

[The_Lady_Snow]

I agree Lady Snow. As far back as I can recall I was a big queer. I have no problem looking back and knowing that now. But when I was younger and it was actually happening I was pretty oblivious to my attraction to girls .


Yanno I gave this A LOT of thought last night as I layed in bed... This is Snow coming from from *MY* experience so therefore I can speak with truth about it.

I chose to be straight so I would be left alone.. I was born queer, as far back as I can remember. I choose to identify my gender as femme, I choose to eat oreos one way, but how I was and have been, that is no choice, it just is.

[Queerasfck]

Yanno I gave this A LOT of thought last night as I layed in bed... This is Snow coming from from *MY* experience so therefore I can speak with truth about it.

I chose to be straight so I would be left alone.. I was born queer, as far back as I can remember. I choose to identify my gender as femme, I choose to eat oreos one way, but how I was and have been, that is no choice, it just is.

Similarly, I chose to be straight for reasons like I didn't want to upset my very conservative Catholic family, specifically my mother. I made myself emotionally unavailable. I chose not to think about any feeling I might have about myself except for anger. I could do that one, it runs in my family.

[Nat]

I choose to identify my gender as femme, I choose to eat oreos one way, but how I was and have been, that is no choice, it just is.

I think in this way, you and I just have a different structure/organization to the way we think about it?

For me there is a separation between how a person is and how a person IDs. As a person who also feels like I've always been queer, this is how I think about it for myself.

I was born queer - it's a natural part of me and I suspect it's biological whether or not a biological connection can ever be proven.

I can also ID as queer - which is a choice. What would my other choices be? I could choose to be one of those people who refuses to ID, who says, "love is just where you find it." I could hate the term "queer" because somebody called me that once and it made me cry (for example), and so I might embrace some other term that doesn't make me feel bad. Or I could ID as straight, etc. To me the term "ID" definitely has choice involved in it - the choice to own or not own an identity.

So I think what I am hearing (and I would never dare to speak for you because you make me tremble in my boots!) is that you feel that you are queer by nature / queer since birth - and to me that's not a discussion of "ID" as much as it's an honest open observation about your experience.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So what would you say is my ID?

[Nat]

So what would you say is my ID?

I think I'll cheat and say I think your ID is "Kinky, Raw, Perverted, Uber Queer Alpha Femme."

But I think you are also saying you *are* queer, have always been queer, and that there is no choice in that - that it's who you are and it's deeper than ID.

I hope I'm making sense. :/ These are more the structures I've built inside my own head to make the world make sense, and maybe they only really work inside my head. I don't feel comfortable stating what I think your "ID" is, because it immediately starts to feel like labeling instead. I think your ID is most definitely something you are in charge of.

[The_Lady_Snow]

that you feel that you are queer by nature / queer sense birth - and to me that's not a discussion of "ID" as much as it's an honest open observation about your experience.


Hence why I asked the question...

It confused me I bit I guess cause I thought I was discussing my ID.

Make sense?

[Nat]

that you feel that you are queer by nature / queer sense birth - and to me that's not a discussion of "ID" as much as it's an honest open observation about your experience.


Hence why I asked the question...

It confused me I bit I guess cause I thought I was discussing my ID.

Make sense?

Hee yes. I do apologize if I invaded your ID.

I was responding mostly to the conversation between Ezeetiger and andrew and linus about whether ID was a choice or not, which I felt came down to a difference in definitions of "id", and since the OP was talking about people having different understandings and how that makes it difficult to clearly communicate with each other, I was trying my best to explain what I see as the difference between experience and ID.

I've noticed a commonality that runs through many of the threads. We use identity labels as we understand them, but we don't understand them all the same, which makes it difficult for us to clearly communicate with each other.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Hee yes. I do apologize if I invaded your ID.

I was responding mostly to the conversation between eztiger and andrew and linus about whether ID was a choice or not, which I felt came down to a difference in definitions of "id", and since the OP was talking about people having different understandings and how that makes it difficult to clearly communicate with each other, I was trying my best to explain what I see as the difference between experience and ID.


Ahhhhhhhh ok!!

Thank you so much for clarifying that for me!!!

[Nat]

Ahhhhhhhh ok!!

Thank you so much for clarifying that for me!!!

I'm sorry - sometimes my adhd brain leaves out important details like the main point. :)

[Daryn]

To me, the line between sex and gender is a little blurry just because I can't help but think that there is a biological component often to a person's gender experience, and once biology enters the picture - is it really sex or gender?

Hmmm... can you talk a bit about why you think there is a biological component to gender experience? Do you think it has something to do with the brain (one theory) or hormones that the fetus was exposed to or ?????

On the topic of choice, the only choices I have made in my life are to embrace who I truly am. I found it easier to embrace being queer (loving women) that to embrace my masculinity (long trip from tomboy to trying to be straight girl to androgynous to soft butch to butch to genderqueer guy with no plans to transition). Coming out was a couple of years and while I was in college. The gender journey was a couple of decades...

[Nat]

Hmmm... can you talk a bit about why you think there is a biological component to gender experience? Do you think it has something to do with the brain (one theory) or hormones that the fetus was exposed to or ?????

The first reason I think there's a biological component is because I think humans are basically animals and that it's possible that every part of us has some biological basis.

I know this is exactly the opposite of much of queer theory.

Though I think gender has a performative element, and the way gender is expressed is tied very much to cultural constructions, the part of gender I'm talking about is the stuff that feels innate. Not "gender identity" or "gender expression" but how one experiences one's own gender and sex.

If I feel like there's a guy side of me, is that my psychology? informed by my experiences? Some people might say yes. Is it something spiritual? I sometimes wonder that. But there is always going to be a piece of me that wonders about my own DNA, my own hormone levels, my fetal development, etc. I will always wonder whether my feelings stem from a biological (chemical, developmental, genetic) cause.

And when people talk about experiencing the "phantum phalllus" - how extraordinary is that in a way? I don't know how common that experience is, but I've had it sometimes. I have known many female-bodied people (many who are woman identified, several who are not butch, but most queer) who experience that all of the time. It's hard for me to not think that's biologically based.

But, whether it can be scientifically ever proven - god knows. And I'm not sure I'd want that proven, because if it were something people could affect or discern early enough, how many queer fetuses would be aborted?

The brain is a part of the body, and I think to say that gender is not biologically based would be to say that gender is a result entirely of nurture rather than nature.

With most people I've known, and with my own personal experience, there is some feeling of always having felt a certain way about their gender. I haven't run into a person who says, "when I found out my dad wanted a boy instead of a girl, that's when I started feeling like a boy on the inside." I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I just haven't been exposed to anybody who says they feel like some life-event or influence changed their gender.

I think this is an area where my opinion may be fiercely disagreed with. It's not the informed opinion of a person who's studied this stuff in school or in private scholarly study. It's just my own opinion based on my own feelings and observations, and beyond that, maybe the reason I cling to it so much is that it's a theory that feels supportive to my own experience.

[Daryn]

The first reason I think there's a biological component is because I think humans are basically animals and that it's possible that every part of us has some biological basis.

I don't think knowledge or experiences have a biological basis and both of them shape what is intrinsically part of individual identity.

I know this is exactly the opposite of much of queer theory.

Though I think gender has a performative element, and the way gender is expressed is tied very much to cultural constructions, the part of gender I'm talking about is the stuff that feels innate. Not "gender identity" or "gender expression" but how one experiences one's own gender and sex.

If I feel like there's a guy side of me, is that my psychology? informed by my experiences? Some people might say yes. Is it something spiritual? I sometimes wonder that. But there is always going to be a piece of me that wonders about my own DNA, my own hormone levels, my fetal development, etc. I will always wonder whether my feelings stem from a biological (chemical, developmental, genetic) cause.

And the "nuture over nature gang" would see it totally opposite. But I don't necessarily agree with all of that either. I think it's likely a combination of genetics and environment.

And when people talk about experiencing the "phantum phalllus" - how extraordinary is that in a way? I don't know how common that experience is, but I've had it sometimes. I have known many female-bodied people (many who are woman identified, several who are not butch, but most queer) who experience that all of the time. It's hard for me to not think that's biologically based.

I've been told by a very feminine straight woman that she's experienced it.

But, whether it can be scientifically ever proven - god knows. And I'm not sure I'd want that proven, because if it were something people could affect or discern early enough, how many queer fetuses would be aborted?

The brain is a part of the body, and I think to say that gender is not biologically based would be to say that gender is a result entirely of nurture rather than nature.

With most people I've known, and with my own personal experience, there is some feeling of always having felt a certain way about their gender. I haven't run into a person who says, "when I found out my dad wanted a boy instead of a girl, that's when I started feeling like a boy on the inside." I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I just haven't been exposed to anybody who says they feel like some life-event or influence changed their gender.

I think this is an area where my opinion may be fiercely disagreed with. It's not the informed opinion of a person who's studied this stuff in school or in private scholarly study. It's just my own opinion based on my own feelings and observations, and beyond that, maybe the reason I cling to it so much is that it's a theory that feels supportive to my own experience.

And I am betting the truth is part of both...

[chai~]

~bookmarking~

[Jett]

I think we've had and do still have difficulties defining and agreeing upon various identities because there are so many variations of each identity. It can become difficult when some "markers" in some individuals begin to overlap other with "markers" of another identity... confusing for those who only have a small box for each one. The brain works as smoothly as it does because it basically wants to simplify things in order to be able to store and retrieve great quantities of information quickly, easily and efficiently... that and then some peeps just see things the way they desire them to look and can get really closed minded with things they are passionate about. Too, often times we're still learning, and just haven't "gotten there" yet.

I don't think your internal make-up that we call identity is a choice, I think the words we use to describe it is. I choose to for the most part not to verbally "identify", but I could identify myself using queer gender oriented words, I just don't at this time in my life. For one I have a strong inkling to just fucking be... to just exist and enjoy without thinking about it, no rules, no others definitions chaffing my ass... and two because I don't care (perhaps linked to reason one haha).

To me it is extremely simple, I am unrepentant female masculinity on the inside, at the core, and am mostly a mix of masculine and feminine markers on the outside, maybe slightly more so one way or the other on cues of mood. BUT I always am who I am on the inside... and to me that is what makes you who you are, makes your truth in identity, not underwear, shoes, haircut, definition or a word- or others ridiculous stamp approval *choke* or disapproval of your choices or appearance. Freedom- is breaking free from what you think you should be and just being who you are... truth in self- is the inner reality of things and finding and living in that genuinely... everything else, all the fluff and hubbub is just noise.

Let people talk, no matter what you do they always will... just make sure you dance and enjoy the fuck out life and of yourself while they are huddled around doing it.

[lisa93]

a lot of ppl get these mixed up