Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.

[SuperFemme]

I was a little upset today by seeing the word "Breeder" used in a thread.

I find the word Breeder when used in reference to ANY woman vulgar and offensive. It reduces a woman (once again) to her reproductive organs.

What I cannot understand is why in the Queer Community it is used as a descriptor of women that have had children.

It's kind of like using the "Gold Star Lesbian" thing. As if those of us that were in relationships with bio-men are some how a less desirable grade of Queer than those that were not.

When somebody uses that term about me it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. My path to self acceptance may have been longer than the next girls, but that doesn't make me a receptacle for sperm.

I am not an animal, and have never EVER been *bred*.

Why do we do this to each other? How do you feel about that word?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't like it, it's degrading, it's mean, it's ugly and it makes is sound that if we chose to give birth to our children that we have no more value than some form of cattle...

[JakeTulane]

I will weigh in... which I usually do not do. However, I have to say I detest the word "breeder" and agree that it is degrading and when it is used it is as though a woman who has had children is some form of animal and has just been bred only to be led to pasture. We are all here by a man's sperm. I do not feel that My Mom "bred" Me.

[Nat]

I think it's a dehumanizing word.

[Spirit Dancer]

SF
I agree with you it's disgusting and rude, what if their mother
was called a breeder? I love my children and am no less part of this community
because I had a child.If it weren't for those who give birth the
cycle of life ends.

[SuperFemme]

Why IS it that people continue to use this word? I am sad that we would devalue WOMEN in a Queer Community. :rainbowAfro:

[T D]

Whenever I've heard this word used it's been in a deragatory manner, usually as a means to belittle the person it's directed at. I've especially heard or seen it used towards the heterosexual community when they've made disparaging remarks about the homosexual community or persons. I find it pretty darn disrespectful!

To be honest it baffles me why people can't just get along and let each other live their lives. I'm pretty darn sure this isn't going to change in my life time, so I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time being overly baffled by this question though... which is unfortunate in so many ways!

:stillheart: you SuperFemme!

[Spirit Dancer]

Why IS it that people continue to use this word? I am sad that we would devalue WOMEN in a Queer Community. :rainbowAfro:

I just hung up with my son, I told him about the thread.
His opinion is, there are those whom are no longer connected to moral feelings about each other,
and if someone called me or his wife a breeder, they would answer to
his brand of respect. Thank goodness for Sons:praying:

[Nat]

there are those whom are no longer connected to moral feelings about each other

If this is true, I wonder what the percentages are. This could explain a lot of behavior in the world. The isms and such. I wonder if there is a remedy?

[JakeTulane]

I believe that people will say what they want to say and use terms they want to use. However, when another person makes it KNOWN that is bothers them in some way .. or they find it hurtful... then perhaps the one using the term should at the very least .. respect that and let the offended person know they were "heard".

[suebee]

I've only ever heard the term used in a good-hearted joking way, and have not used it since I became aware that it has a derogotory connotation to some. However, why do we assume that it's used only in reference to women. I've heard it used to differenciate heterosexuals from homosexuals - no reference to gender that I'm aware of.

[SuperFemme]

Whenever I've heard this word used it's been in a deragatory manner, usually as a means to belittle the person it's directed at. I've especially heard or seen it used towards the heterosexual community when they've made disparaging remarks about the homosexual community or persons. I find it pretty darn disrespectful!

To be honest it baffles me why people can't just get along and let each other live their lives. I'm pretty darn sure this isn't going to change in my life time, so I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time being overly baffled by this question though... which is unfortunate in so many ways!

:stillheart: you SuperFemme!



Good points TD. I am still going to hold on to the hope that WE can be the change. I'm weird like that.

:stillheart: you too.

I just hung up with my son, I told him about the thread.
His opinion is, there are those whom are no longer connected to moral feelings about each other,
and if someone called me or his wife a breeder, they would answer to
his brand of respect. Thank goodness for Sons:praying:

Thank Goodness for sons is right. And their amazing Mommas that raise them with awareness.

[Nat]

I've only ever heard the term used in a good-hearted joking way, and have not used it since I became aware that it has a derogotory connotation to some. However, why do we assume that it's used only in reference to women. I've heard it used to refer to differenciate heterosexuals from homosexuals - no reference to gender that I'm aware of.

I haven't heard it used in a good-hearted way, but I think it's used in several contexts. I've heard vehemently child-free people use this term about those who have kids too. The first time I heard it used, it was by a gay man talking about straight people. But there's also the gold star lesbian vs breeder context - which I find most painful. I don't have kids (sadly), but I definitely have a past that included straight cisgender men, and I don't want my own dear community shaming me for that past.

[Spirit Dancer]

http://i1003.photobucket.com/albums/af156/crystalt89/proudmom.png

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/hazel_rose/LJrandom/proudmom.gif

[suebee]

I haven't heard it used in a good-hearted way, but I think it's used in several contexts. I've heard vehemently child-free people use this term about those who have kids too.

Toward females only?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've only ever heard the term used in a good-hearted joking way, and have not used it since I became aware that it has a derogotory connotation to some. However, why do we assume that it's used only in reference to women. I've heard it used to refer to differenciate heterosexuals from homosexuals - no reference to gender that I'm aware of.


Some of us homosexual are referred to as breeders...

Hence the hierarchy in our queerness.. We are viewed as less than.

[SuperFemme]

I've only ever heard the term used in a good-hearted joking way, and have not used it since I became aware that it has a derogotory connotation to some. However, why do we assume that it's used only in reference to women. I've heard it used to refer to differenciate heterosexuals from homosexuals - no reference to gender that I'm aware of.

Can you use it in a sentence in a good hearted joking way?

I'm really super curious as to what that sounds like.

I'm not being snarky, I just don't know how that could be so.

As far as differentiating between heterosexuals and homosexuals I think that is still just as rude. Women are not bred. Men are not studded out. Homo's are parents too, so I don't get the differentiation.

[Dylan]

I was a little upset today by seeing the word "Breeder" used in a thread.

I find the word Breeder when used in reference to ANY woman vulgar and offensive. It reduces a woman (once again) to her reproductive organs.

What I cannot understand is why in the Queer Community it is used as a descriptor of women that have had children.

It's kind of like using the "Gold Star Lesbian" thing. As if those of us that were in relationships with bio-men are some how a less desirable grade of Queer than those that were not.

When somebody uses that term about me it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up. My path to self acceptance may have been longer than the next girls, but that doesn't make me a receptacle for sperm.

I am not an animal, and have never EVER been *bred*.

Why do we do this to each other? How do you feel about that word?

I love how you take it out of context and start a thread about it.

You want to drag this conversation over to another thread now?

Honestly, if you don't think little girls are groomed for this shit from before they can even talk, I really don't understand how or why you'd jump into a conversation about that exact topic

It wasn't a dis on people who have kids...it was used as a dis for how girls are groomed by a sexist culture.

I heard you. I got your feelings on the topic. Had that been the way I used it in the post, I would agree with you. But that's not how I used it.


Dylan

[suebee]

Can you use it in a sentence in a good hearted joking way?

I'm really super curious as to what that sounds like.

I'm not being snarky, I just don't know how that could be so.

As far as differentiating between heterosexuals and homosexuals I think that is still just as rude. Women are not bred. Homo's are parents too, so I don't get the differentiation.

I won't give an example as the difference between something said in a non-harmful way and an insulting way is most often not in the words but in the context, tone, etc. However that's just the background of the usage I'm aware of. My real question is whether or not people think it's in reference to women only.

[Spirit Dancer]

Some of us homosexual are referred to as breeders...

Hence the hierarchy in our queerness.. We are viewed as less than.

Snow
I swear when I came out, and a butch referred to me as a breeder
I flipped, she said Queers don't have kids.
Mind you her mom was queer, so I pointed to said Mom and said,
your kiddo thinks I'm a breeder so therefore I cannot be queer.
Said mom goes to baby butch and says, pssst I'm no SOB breeder
and whomps her across the head. Thump as lesson learned:police:

[Nat]

I find the word Breeder when used in reference to ANY woman vulgar and offensive. It reduces a woman (once again) to her reproductive organs.

I really like your statement here specifically. I think the word "breeder" is a slur.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I love how you take it out of context and start a thread about it.

You want to drag this conversation over to another thread now?

Honestly, if you don't think little girls are groomed for this shit from before they can even talk, I really don't understand how or why you'd jump into a conversation about that exact topic

It wasn't a dis on people who have kids...it was used as a dis for how girls are groomed by a sexist culture.

I heard you. I got your feelings on the topic. Had that been the way I used it in the post, I would agree with you. But that's not how I used it.


Dylan

Can you take into consideration that it is NOT OK for you to say that? Can you not listen and hear us say

It's offensive?

Can you step out of Dylan zone for one fucking second and hear this?

You don't get to tell us how to feel about a word that has been used on us as defensive, derogatory or insulting.

Damn it Dylan..

I know you gotta know better..

It's not about you you you and your god damn sentence structure and how you see fit.

As a guy, it's even worse for you to come up in here and JUSTIFY that term.

Damn dude...

FFS listen.

[Nat]

Toward females only?

No. According to the urban dictionary, the child-free community has more specific and ugly language for mothers and fathers.

[Dylan]

Women are not bred.

Women in this country are groomed to breed/reproduce/carry on the human race/however you choose to say it.

Because women are seen as objects. Whores and mothers. Sinner or saint. They're not seen as individuals. Housekeepers and secretaries. And if they don't want to have kids, there's something wrong with them...or they hate men. And every thing they do is (supposedly) done for the benefit of a man or to get a man. Don't believe me? Pink is on the cover of Cosmo this month talking about sex secrets...because even someone as strong as Pink is catering to a man and worried about 'keeping her man happy'.

It started with religion, and it's perpetrated through a sexist culture. Girls and women are sooooo groomed for it that they can't even decide for themselves if they can have an abortion.

It's in every commercial geared toward women, and it's perpetuated in every commercial for children. "Take care of these precious little ponies". "Take care of this little baby". "Clean the house with this play set". "Make your baby dinner with this kitchen set". "Put make up on, so you can get a man, so you can have babies".

So, seriously, you think girls/women aren't bombarded with this message from the second that F goes on that birth certificate?


Honestly,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

I love how you take it out of context and start a thread about it.

You want to drag this conversation over to another thread now?

Honestly, if you don't think little girls are groomed for this shit from before they can even talk, I really don't understand how or why you'd jump into a conversation about that exact topic

It wasn't a dis on people who have kids...it was used as a dis for how girls are groomed by a sexist culture.

I heard you. I got your feelings on the topic. Had that been the way I used it in the post, I would agree with you. But that's not how I used it.


Dylan

Dylan, this thread has nothing to do with you or how you posted.

It's about a word and how it is used by some (not you) to hurt.

I'm not dragging a discussion either, I am wanting to have a dialogue about the feelings that this word invokes for some of us.

Please take yourself out of the equation, ok?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Believe it or not..

Some women

Wanted to be mommies.....

gasp...

true story

[Dylan]

Can you take into consideration that it is NOT OK for you to say that? Can you not listen and hear us say

It's offensive?

Can you step out of Dylan zone for one fucking second and hear this?

You don't get to tell us how to feel about a word that has been used on us as defensive, derogatory or insulting.

Damn it Dylan..

I know you gotta know better..

It's not about you you you and your god damn sentence structure and how you see fit.

As a guy, it's even worse for you to come up in here and JUSTIFY that term.

Damn dude...

FFS listen.
FFS Snow, I heard you. Both of you.

And FFS Snow, could you hear a word in context instead of hearing it as you want?

Give me another word, Snow.

What other word denotes the same way women are groomed?

Give me another one, and I'll use it. That has the same connotation. Reproducer? Doesn't have the same connotation.

Give me something that has the same connotation as puppy mill. Because that IS how the patriarchy sets up and grooms girls/women.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

I won't give an example as the difference between something said in a non-harmful way and an insulting way is most often not in the words but in the context, tone, etc. However that's just the background of the usage I'm aware of. My real question is whether or not people think it's in reference to women only.

That makes sense...totally. I hear you on the context so fair enough, no example needed.

In answer to your question, no. I don't think it is in reference to women only. I also don't think it's appropriate to use on any gender. Seriously.

[The_Lady_Snow]

FFS Snow, I heard you. Both of you.

And FFS Snow, could you hear a word in context instead of hearing it as you want?

Give me another word, Snow.

What other word denotes the same way women are groomed?

Give me another one, and I'll use it. That has the same connotation. Reproducer? Doesn't have the same connotation.

Give me something that has the same connotation as puppy mill. Because that IS how the patriarchy sets up and grooms girls/women.


Dylan


When I was pregnant..

I was refered to as pregnant..

Not bred.

How about that

Impregnated..

Pregnant.

Last time I checked that was a word.

[Spirit Dancer]

It wasn't instilled or grilled into me
to have children, I chose the gift of life.
It was my sole choice not to abort, mine alone
no influence from outside sources.
I raised my daughter to be and stand strong
to make her own decisions on having a child,
she's chosen to do just that and I adore her
no matter what.
Woman are intelligent and can chose their fate to have
children or not.

[SuperFemme]

Wait. What does ffs mean?

[Nat]

Wait. What does ffs mean?

for fuck's sake?

for further study?

fringe field switching?

fee for service?

[Dylan]

When I was pregnant..

I was refered to as pregnant..

Not bred.

How about that

Impregnated..

Pregnant.

Last time I checked that was a word.

And after you were pregnant?

Pregnant is a certain stage of the reproduction cycle

It's not the same connotation

And let's not forget that once women are past the age of reproducing/carrying on the human race, they're no longer seen as attractive or useful to the patriarchy (unless they're the caretaking, doting grandmother who once again is dealing with children).


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

FFS Snow, I heard you. Both of you.

And FFS Snow, could you hear a word in context instead of hearing it as you want?

Give me another word, Snow.

What other word denotes the same way women are groomed?

Give me another one, and I'll use it. That has the same connotation. Reproducer? Doesn't have the same connotation.

Give me something that has the same connotation as puppy mill. Because that IS how the patriarchy sets up and grooms girls/women.


Dylan

Puppy mill? Really?

I thought we were to have 2.3 children only and to stay gorgeous for our men. Who would have the energy to clean, work, and be sexy with THAT many kids?

[SuperFemme]

for fuck's sake?

for further study?

fringe field switching?

fee for service?

ohhhhh. thanks.

[Spirit Dancer]

What I never understood was
why do those who choose not to have children
feel the need to judge those of us who do and
them flame us with those nasty little words.
They made their choice, we made ours and if your
reading this today, thank a mother.

[SuperFemme]

I think it's safe to say that the "connotation" is offensive.

[The_Lady_Snow]

And after you were pregnant?

Pregnant is a certain stage of the reproduction cycle

It's not the same connotation

And let's not forget that once women are past the age of reproducing/carrying on the human race, they're no longer seen as attractive or useful to the patriarchy (unless they're the caretaking, doting grandmother who once again is dealing with children).


Dylan

After I became MOM...

I will gladly become MOMMA-SON

I don't use gramma.

Yanno Dylan once again, some of us wanted kids. It wasn't shoved down our throats, we just wanted them.. I can't tell you how much I wanted my kids. IT HURT. Every single one, once I knew them I would give my life for them.

That's what you ain't hearing Dylan, that as a MOTHER, you insisting on using the word is humiliating and ugly.

FUCK your points of view..

Respect that a handful of women keep asking you to listen, can you just listen and give us that much respect?

Not that fucking hard Dylan, I do it for you ,and would if you asked -and have.

[JustJo]

And after you were pregnant?

Pregnant is a certain stage of the reproduction cycle

It's not the same connotation

And let's not forget that once women are past the age of reproducing/carrying on the human race, they're no longer seen as attractive or useful to the patriarchy (unless they're the caretaking, doting grandmother who once again is dealing with children).


Dylan

How about if we say parent? mother?

I wasn't bred...I'm not a cow.

I became pregnant. I am a mother. I parent. Any of those is better, at least to me.

I agree that women are judged, in part, by whether or not they have children. We are also judged, in part, by our physical appearance, how much money we make or have, who we partner with. the class we are born into, the car we drive, the clothes we wear and more.

For me, the central problem isn't that women are raised to be mothers or measure their worth by their sexual appeal to others (although I have a problem with both of those things)...it's that we aren't generally raised to treasure our own individuality - no matter what it looks like or where it takes us.

[Gayla]

I've heard it used by the (straight) child free by choice people in reference to other straight people who have children. I've heard it used by, mostly, gay men in reference to straight people. It's the term we yelled back at the protester who were yelling "Fags!" at us when our float went by. In these circumstances, it's been used against men and women equally and usually towards heterosexual couples.

Granted, this was all probably 20+ years ago and I'm not sure I've seen it used since except on rare occasion. And when I do it hear it used in that way that is meant to insult, I'm horrified that we used it back then. In our somewhat limited defense, there were not many queers with children in our limited social circle at the time.

I do have a friend who refers to his siblings as the "breeders" of the family because he has something like 14 nieces and nephews . In this particular case, he uses it with affection because he is very glad to have those kids in his life. And yes, he uses the phrase to their faces.

I think that may be the only time I've heard it used without offensive intent.

[Nat]

What I never understood was
why do those who choose not to have children
feel the need to judge those of us who do and
them flame us with those nasty little words.
They made their choice, we made ours and if your
reading this today, thank a mother.

I think because people without children feel oppressed by those who have them?

I knew two sisters who stopped talking for a whole year because the one with a child told the one without a child that she didn't feel like she was a real woman until she gave birth. So it cuts both ways. It's painful on both sides, I think.

[Spirit Dancer]

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/lmr2920/motherhood.jpg

[Lady Pamela]

Even in the dictionary it reads:


breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice breeder of revolutions.


Right here it clearing shows many forms of how it is offensive.
And a huge amount of offensive sides are not even listed.

The word implies we are like cattle...Held to reproduce only.

And degrades our parenthood.

I for one was not raised to breed.
My mother never taught me that was what my adulthood looked like.
I chose my mothering. And adore and cherrish it.

[SuperFemme]

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.

I started this thread because just seeing the word upset me. It has been used about me in conjunction with how "girly girl" I am on several occasions. As if being a Queer Woman is a balancing act of being Queer but not too "Girly".

I don't think I will ever change my girliness or being a Femme. I wonder why that is frowned upon?

Raising kids with a mom, a dad and a partner feels subversive to some degree. More people to love and shape a child and I get to be *me*. It took me a long time to be brave enough to do that.

[Spirit Dancer]

I think because people without children feel oppressed by those who have them?

I knew two sisters who stopped talking for a whole year because the one with a child told the one without a child that she didn't feel like she was a real woman until she gave birth. So it cuts both ways. It's painful on both sides, I think.

Yes I know that, but was referring to those who made the choice not
to have a child. I feel for those who want and cannot have a child, my heart breaks for them.

[Liam]

I think it is heterophobic.

[Dylan]

How about if we say parent? mother?

I wasn't bred...I'm not a cow.

I became pregnant. I am a mother. I parent. Any of those is better, at least to me.

I agree that women are judged, in part, by whether or not they have children. We are also judged, in part, by our physical appearance, how much money we make or have, who we partner with. the class we are born into, the car we drive, the clothes we wear and more.

For me, the central problem isn't that women are raised to be mothers or measure their worth by their sexual appeal to others (although I have a problem with both of those things)...it's that we aren't generally raised to treasure our own individuality - no matter what it looks like or where it takes us.

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

[Soon]

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff45/lmr2920/motherhood.jpg


/derail
I wish this was true for all mothers.

[Nat]

I was watching youtubes of queer poetry recently and I ran into this discussion of the term "stud." I found it really interesting because I'd never heard anybody argue against the use of the term "stud" within the queer community and also because of the relationship of that word to breeding animals. Obviously this is a term many people in our community claim with pride, I really think there are possible parallels between the terms "stud" and "breeder."

(Since you mentioned other words that hurt our own)

py_yDCTQ5EA

[The_Lady_Snow]

I personally do not see women less than just because they can not or do not or choose not to have children.

Does not make them less than to me...

[The_Lady_Snow]

I was watching youtubes of queer poetry recently and I ran into this discussion of the term "stud." I found it really interesting because I'd never heard anybody argue against the use of the term "stud" within the queer community and also because of the relationship of that word to breeding animals. Obviously this is a term many people in our community claim with pride, I really think there are possible parallels between the terms "stud" and "breeder."

(Since you mentioned other words that hurt our own)

py_yDCTQ5EA


Stud in our culture means more of a machismo way of saying the best.

At least in my experience.

[DapperButch]

I've only ever heard the term used in a good-hearted joking way, and have not used it since I became aware that it has a derogotory connotation to some. However, why do we assume that it's used only in reference to women. I've heard it used to differenciate heterosexuals from homosexuals - no reference to gender that I'm aware of.

Right. This is the only way that I have heard the term used - as a synonmyn for heterosexual. Whether one actually had children had nothing to do with the definition of the term. However, I will say that I have only used the word used by a couple of people, once or twice, quite a number of years ago.

No matter how the term is used, it is insulting and hurtful to others (any others). It shouldn't be used.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

It's a damn good thang I don't and have never listened to shit like that..

It may have been shoved down my face by things around me, it just did not ring true for ME.

I am the bomb fucking diggity cause I am a single mom, have been, and still don't need no damn body as I continue to do so.

I was taught I can do anything on my own.

[Spirit Dancer]

I am first a women
foremost a mother
I am a parent
I've been with child
I'm queer
I'm steadfast in my voice and
I'm not nor do I care for the word breeder.

[JustJo]

Well I'm gonna have to change colors here so I can go point to point...because I think you raise some interesting questions...
Let me start first by saying that, as much as I love the warm sentiments of motherhood...I was NOT raised to be a mother. I was raised by a narcissist who made it very clear to me from a very young age that motherhood ruined her life, her future and her happiness. I was raised to believe that motherhood was one step above slavery, and the last thing in the world I should ever desire.

Do you think women are groomed to be mothers for their own selves or do you think women are groomed to be mothers for the benefit of men?

20 years ago I would have agreed with you that women were groomed to be mothers primarily to support the status quo. Anymore? No. The largest growing (I believe) stratum of new mothers are older, first time, single mothers - many of whom have decided to stop waiting for Mr. Right and just start their own family on their own terms. I personally know many of women in this cohort - and they are mothering purely for their own reasons and because it's what their own heart desires.

Do you think motherhood is so regaled when a man is NOT involved?

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

Not in my experience.l I am a single mother. I did, eventually and big mistake, marry my son's father for a few years thinking it would be best for my son. No one ever called or treated me like a whore, and I was far from untouchable by men. In fact, I had several volunteers to step into my ready made family. Yes, there are some men who avoid single moms...but honestly, not many.

So, do you think girls are taught to be mothers (and that's not the word I want, because 'mothers' are usually regaled [unless they're single mothers]...mother does not have the same connotation as what I was trying to convey in how the patriarchy treats/grooms girls)

I'm not talking about how I (me,me,me) or you or women see parenting/motherhood/etc...I'm talking about patriarchy and how little girls are taught from a young age that their worth is tied to their sexuality and ability to create children. And because I likened that whole post to FLDS and the grooming that takes place in that arena...breed is exactly the right word.

Acutally, I think women today are measured more by their ability to be a trophy wife than a mother. You don't need breast implants, botox injections and a lifestyle lift to be a mother. But that's what's getting hammered into us now. Again, 20 years ago I would have agreed that a woman's ability to have children was key. Anymore, I think her ability to fit into a size 3 is more important to much of mainstream society.

I think we've gone past the "woman as mother" stage in our culture and moved into "woman as perpetually youthful hottie" instead. I don't see it as an improvement, but no one consulted me.

Because I don't see the patriarchal grooming of (girl) children in this society as ANY different than FLDS society, and that's EXACTLY how women are treated in that patriarchal society.


Dylan

I do hear what you're saying Dylan...I just feel like you're talking about a 20 year old dynamic. :rrose:

[apretty]

What I never understood was
why do those who choose not to have children
feel the need to judge those of us who do and
them flame us with those nasty little words.
They made their choice, we made ours and if your
reading this today, thank a mother.

thank a mother for what?

people are so self-righteous about giving birth, i really don't get it: it usually happens by accident and in 99% of cases there is *zero* preparation and planning and all that shit that "the gays" have to go through to acquire a kid.

sorry, i just think you're *really* misguided when you say that everyone childless chooses to be childless.

and really, how can you have this kind of world-view of mothers and women when you appropriate native american culture in that other thread--the two are so hard for me to reconcile.

[Spirit Dancer]

thank a mother for what?

people are so self-righteous about giving birth, i really don't get it: it usually happens by accident and in 99% of cases there is *zero* preparation and planning and all that shit that "the gays" have to go through to acquire a kid.

sorry, i just think you're *really* misguided when you say that everyone childless chooses to be childless.

and really, how can you have this kind of world-view of mothers and women when you appropriate native american culture in that other thread--the two are so hard for me to reconcile.

That is not what I said, I said their are those that chose not to and their
are those that cannot for medical reasons, I said my heart broke for those who cannot have children, and if your reading this then someone a woman gave you life.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nat
I think because people without children feel oppressed by those who have them?

I knew two sisters who stopped talking for a whole year because the one with a child told the one without a child that she didn't feel like she was a real woman until she gave birth. So it cuts both ways. It's painful on both sides, I think.

Yes I know that, but was referring to those who made the choice not
to have a child. I feel for those who want and cannot have a child, my heart breaks for them.
__________________I said the red area

[apretty]

I think it is heterophobic.

yeah i'm suspicious of hetero (christian families with 2 parents and a minivan/xtra large suv) that haven't done the work (why should they?/they don't have to!) especially the white men who haven't done the work, who think that there is such a thing as hetero-phobia and/or reversed-racism. who are born into their privilege and deny it every day of their lives. call me phobic, but that's kinda *fishy behavior* to me.

[SuperFemme]

i think this is one way that the term separates us as a community.

pitting those w/children against those w/o children.

women are fucking AMAZING by the very virtue of being women. not because they reproduce or not.

:|

[Martina]

i have strong feelings about this even though i have not had a child. i have been dissed on a couple of threads for suggesting that not every parent can have it all -- the career they want and being a good parent. It doesn't always work that way even if it should.

Anyway. Most places in the world, women do not have the choice to not have children. That's a given. That's wrong. BUT it's a separate issue.

Once someone has a child, that is, in my opinion, something to be respected, valued, and supported. If i err, it's on the side of romanticizing the work of parenting and the connection between parent and child. i can not see any excuse for ever denigrating it. It needs to be more respected, more valued in our culture and around the world. Liberation for women is not gotten through undervaluing how most women spend their time.

Most women, no matter how poor, sick, or oppressed, find ways to parent well and have rich and meaningful connections with their children. They invest their lives in their children. Whether they should have had to get pregnant or not, that investment deserves respect. Huge amounts of respect.

i do not think girls should be taught not to want to parent, not to value parenting as a life goal. i think boys should be taught to be more invested in parenting, to think of it as something they should prepare for and imagine and dream of.

People are always going to have babies, and it will be a decades or longer -- probably much longer -- before women on this planet always do so voluntarily.

But devaluing their contributions is devaluing their lives. However else they might have chosen to live, being a mom is the life most are leading. And it's hugely valuable.

To me, it's sacred. However a child came into this world, once she is here, the world must welcome her and honor those who guide her along her way.

[evolveme]

i think this is one way that the term separates us as a community.

pitting those w/children against those w/o children.

women are fucking AMAZING by the very virtue of being women. not because they reproduce or not.

:|

Apropos to Dylan’s original point, it is the conditions of patriarchy that pits women against one another, and that forces the competition.

Unless it is evolution. (Though certainly patriarchy could be a tool of evolution.)

[Jet]

This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such.

I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.

[waxnrope]

re the stud comparison above. the term was used during slavery to indicate the BREEDING capability of black men ...

[SuperFemme]

re the stud comparison above. the term was used during slavery to indicate the BREEDING capability of black men ...

which makes sense as to the poem that was spoken.

[Mister Bent]

This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such.

I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.


Way to make it about you.

Though, it raises the salient point that the term "breeders" doesn't refer solely to women, but to heterosexuals in general, aka "those who breed."

Because no queer person ever got pregnant. |:

The term "breeder" isn't necessarily one which pits woman against woman, except in this context, in which homosexual women (here) might use it as a put down toward heterosexual women (those "others"). Not having children v. having children.

It's an absurd and demeaning generalization, not to mention, we all know having babies is bad.

Studs oughta quit makin' em.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This doesn't surprise me at all. There's a lot of discrimination in the queer community and I have been the object as such.

I had gay men friends who always used breeder when talking about straights. None of this is new to me.


I gotta ask Jet

Do you let your gay men friends continue to use this ugly term? Or do you call them on their shit?

Curious how you blend in with the boys, I really am..

[Nat]

The term "breeder" isn't necessarily one which pits woman against woman, except in this context, in which homosexual women (here) might use it as a put down toward heterosexual women (those "others").

It can also be used by anybody LGBTQ against anybody else LGBTQ (who also has kids or has been in a position to have kids).

In your women vs women scenario above, queer women can use this term against other queer women.

[AtLast]

i have strong feelings about this even though i have not had a child. i have been dissed on a couple of threads for suggesting that not every parent can have it all -- the career they want and being a good parent. It doesn't always work that way even if it should.

Anyway. Most places in the world, women do not have the choice to not have children. That's a given. That's wrong. BUT it's a separate issue.

Once someone has a child, that is, in my opinion, something to be respected, valued, and supported. If i err, it's on the side of romanticizing the work of parenting and the connection between parent and child. i can not see any excuse for ever denigrating it. It needs to be more respected, more valued in our culture and around the world. Liberation for women is not gotten through undervaluing how most women spend their time.

Most women, no matter how poor, sick, or oppressed, find ways to parent well and have rich and meaningful connections with their children. They invest their lives in their children. Whether they should have had to get pregnant or not, that investment deserves respect. Huge amounts of respect.

i do not think girls should be taught not to want to parent, not to value parenting as a life goal. i think boys should be taught to be more invested in parenting, to think of it as something they should prepare for and imagine and dream of.

People are always going to have babies, and it will be a decades or longer -- probably much longer -- before women on this planet always do so voluntarily.

But devaluing their contributions is devaluing their lives. However else they might have chosen to live, being a mom is the life most are leading. And it's hugely valuable.

To me, it's sacred. However a child came into this world, once she is here, the world must welcome her and honor those who guide her along her way.

Have to add, no matter how one becomes a parent, it is sacred. Also, there are women that had to make very difficult and heart breaking choices about their ability to parent a child, yet, have them in their heart each and every day.

[AtLast]

The term breeder, just like the term class (or classless, no class) have been purged from my vocacbulary. They both (and there are others) have just taken on negative connotations in so many ways and for many people.

Something that I think this very community has given me is an awareness of just how hurtful some terms can be. We are so diverse. Frankly, the term vanilla bothers me because it has evolved into a put down in some ways.

For me, its all about being sensitive to terms (or phrases) that just can be negative to people. And the negative attachments are part of an evolutionary process, usually not starting out negative. If I use a term or phrase and just one person tells me that it is insulting to them, I listen to their reasons. We all have different backgrounds (come from different regions, plus throw ethnic/racial, class, identity, sexuality, etc. in the mix) and come from different places.

[Random]

Because when there's NOT a man around, those women (single women) are seen (STILL...in 2010) as whores and or 'untouchable' by men, because they have another man's child.

Dylan

I have to STRONGLY disagree with this misandrist statement...

I know for a fact that this is not true..

Both my mother and myself we *unwed mothers* and I know DAMN well that my father didn't think my mother was a whore or untouchable.. I know the same thing about my ex husband...

Remember.. there are NO absolutes in live.. not ONE group of ANYTHING/ANYONE feels the same way, simply because they belong to that group....

Sorry for the derail.. but I can't sit still and let all guys be tared with the same feather...

[Random]

I've never actually had a problem with the word..

I've used it for myself a time or two..

But I never really put any thought into it...

To me, it just meant someone who had given birth/had children/who's job it was to have children...

I don't know if I've ever said it in a negitive way...

I'm going to have to think on this....

If someone called me a breeder, I wouldn't be offended..

But then again, I'm reading Chapterhouse Dune and the Breeding Mistresses are a power unto them selves... They control the future...

[IrishGrrl]

OFFS..

Lets just start a thread called

"out of context fuck ups"

or

"let's kick Dylan's ass"

Seriously,

We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!

[sharkchomp]

I've only ever heard the word used by lesbians against/towards heterosexuals. They meant it harshly.

It is a degrading word that lowers people to animals (dehumanizing) and I choose not to use it towards any person (unless they are breeding livestock or other animals ie. a dog breeder).

As far as gay folk using it against other gay folk - wow!!!! That's just sad.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Nat]

This thread is about the word "breeder" and other words used to hurt other members of the LGBTQ community. At least, that's what I get from the thread title and every post made by the OP.

I think one thing to keep in mind is that even when LGBTQ people use this term to refer to straight people, even when the target is straight people, it does feel erasing and dehumanizing to LGBTQ folks who have kids or who have been in relationships where kids could have resulted. The fact that this group of LGBTQ people aren't even considered when directing this term at straight people is not simple innocence or thoughtlessness - it's disregard. Especially once an LGBTQ person has stated that the word itself is hurtful and upsetting.

We haven't gotten into other words seen as hurtful to members of this community, but the ones discussed most often in this community are incorrectly applied pronouns.

Other words that I see as similary hurtful: "real" and "true" - as in "real lesbian" or "real femme" or "true butch" or "real woman" or "real man".

Also the terms "more/most" and "less/least" in conjunction with butch, femme, masculine, feminine when used to describe others - that can be very hurtful language and not just for the intended recipient.

I've also seen people get very upset about being called a victim.

Though this isn't a specific word, I also find it alarming when LGBTQ people advocate outlawing divorce (stating that "divorce is the real threat to marriage", not gays). I've heard this more at protests against prop 8, but it's another way to erase and divide members of the community who may have gotten divorced. Beyond that, the sheer obliviousness to the ramifications of outlawing divorce stresses me out, even if the people who say this type of thing are trying to make a totally different point.

I also think it's alarming/upsetting when white members of the LGBTQ community show up at protests with signs that say things like "Gay is the new Black" or state in other ways that the struggle for LGBTQ rights is above the struggle for racial justice/equality or that the struggle for racial justice/equality has already been won.

[The_Lady_Snow]

OFFS..

Lets just start a thread called

"out of context fuck ups"

or

"let's kick Dylan's ass"

Seriously,

We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!


Yanno this isn't the Dylan show..

It's about a WORD that is hurtful and a very civil conversation is being had. Have we asked Dylan not to use it, sure.

Will he stop?

Not really sure...

I don't feel I am taking anything out of context, it is something that is oogy to some of us, and being there have been THREADS all over lately about hurtful terms we figured we should and could be heard.

Just sayin'

[Heart]

It looked to me like Dylan was talking about the patriarchal context of a term like breeder, as it relates to conditioning in a sexist culture. And I, *hold the phone*, totally agree with him. It's why the term is so offensive.

I am constantly confused about the way things get personalized around here.
Dylan wasn't talking about a particular, individual mother or father or person.
He certainly wasn't talking about misandry (huh?). He was talking about patriarchy. About an environment in which all of us, (male & female) learn that a woman's value is connected to whether or not she bears children in the service of the patriarchy. That construct exists. Do many of us defy it? Of course! That doesn't erase it however.

I have heard the term breeder used in two distinct ways -- as a slur by queers against straight people, and by childless people against people with children. While these slurs may not overtly differentiate between men and women (men also "breed" children), I agree with SF that these slurs reduce things down to women's reproductive organs. It's objectifying, offensive, and derogatory. And its patriarchy that sets up the context in which that is so.

Heart

[The_Lady_Snow]

This thread is about the word "breeder" and other words used to hurt other members of the LGBTQ community. At least, that's what I get from the thread title and every post made by the OP.



I too thought that is what this thread was about, NOT how Dylan chose to explain patriarchy.

*slaps* forehead

Silly me thinking it was ok to ask this be taken into account.

By all means continue to use the word. silly me..

[Heart]

Snowy - I don't get it -- we are talking about the word breeder and how it hurts us. Are you saying we shouldn't mention the context of the word, we shouldn't mention patriarchy? I don't know what your issue is with Dylan per se, but like I said talking about the patriarchal context of a word like breeder is not personal. I for one, can't talk about the word and leave out the context.

And by the way, the word has been used several times in very direct ways to hurt me. I am, after all a mother and a woman and a queer.

Heart

[The_Lady_Snow]

Snowy - I don't get it -- we are talking about the word breeder and how it hurts us. Are you saying we shouldn't mention the context of the word, we shouldn't mention patriarchy? I don't know what your issue is with Dylan per se, but like I said talking about the patriarchal context of a word like breeder is not personal. I for one, can't talk about the word and leave out the context.

And by the way, the word has been used several times in very direct ways to hurt me. I am, after all a mother and a woman and a queer.

Heart


ONCE AGAIN...

IT IS NOT ABOUT DYLAN.......

Talk about patriarchy till you are blue in the face, can it be done without the word breeder though???

I believe that this is what this thread is ABOUT..

How hurtful the word breeder is.......

Not Dylan....

I have no issues with Dylan....

One could say I would even buy him a cuppa coffee, not from Starbucks though he doesn't like em.

[waxnrope]

This is more interesting than a tennis match. Only my brain, not head, is going back and forth.
I agree absolutely with Dylan and Heart (and a few others) that the ROOT cause of the word is patriarchy.
I also agree with Lady Snow (now that's a wonder!) that the WORD is offensive and derogatory. I can see that, by her response (and many others here on this thread) that it is hurtful ~ no matter the cause.
If I do that which I was taught, to take something that is hurtful to another and reflect upon it, find kindredness within my own experience/s, then I look at it this way: If someone used the "n" word (I hate how "polite" that sounds, but would probably get suspended from the site for using the entire word, despite my ethnic origins), no matter how it was explained to me it's rootedness in colonialism, racism, patriarchy (and yes, it has a root there, too ...), I would see red and not hear much of what was said afterward. Because it has been used to degrade me and darker skinned people of color, because of the experiential history of its use (images of dogs, water hoses, burning churches, and burning children, rape, etc. immediately come to mind), I would REACT to the WORD and not give a rat's behind about where the fuck it came from. Sorry, I don't know if I can use that word here *shrugs*.
So, Dylan, Heart, etc., let's drop the hammer and stop trying to beat something into peoples heads when it is their hearts that bleed ... I hear ya.

[Heart]

Talk about patriarchy till you are blue in the face, can it be done without the word breeder though???

How hurtful the word breeder is.......


Okay Snow, no Dylan in the equation. The title of this thread uses the word "breeder," so I'm not sure how to talk about how hurtful that word is, without using the word. We could say b******.

For me to talk about that word and how it has harmed me, I would talk about patriarchy. But that's me.

Not trying to nag, but just not getting how I'm not on topic.

Heart

[suebee]

I really hate to see this type of back-and-forth on the site. It usually accomplishes nothing. But for whatever it's worth:

I believe that context is everything! Using an offensive word to describe an offensive concept/situation/whatever is pretty effective. It doesn't mean that the example extends to everyone.

As for the word "breeder": thinking back to my days in child protection I could have used the word back then. People who had baby after baby and had no interest in actually raising them. Giving birth to a child, or contributing your genetic sample to the process does not a parent make. My folks would be a pretty good example of that. Kudos to all the Moms and Dads out there who actually raised their children!

As for the actual word in question: as I've said - I don't use it anymore even though I've never heard it used in a deliberately offensive fashion. But it's just on my list of "no sense in using if it might offend somebody" words.

We have a myriad of ways of marginalizing each other. It sure seems like a helluva way to treat each other, especially since every single one of us on this site is already marginalized by society at large. But I think it's really just human nature. It's a way of making us feel that we're okay.

So, in summary:
dissing people just because they're not like you - not cool
thinking that simply the fact that you've given birth to a child makes you a REAL mother (or father) - getta life
having made the decision to have a child (whether planned or not) and hanging there and being that one safe place through thick and thin - WAY cool, and nothing but respect to each and every one of you.

:floatbee:'s blurb over.

[Miss Scarlett]

I admit to having uttered this word as a slur, in selfish anger, a time or many in the past. I learned this use of the word as a slur from an ex years ago. It's no longer in my vocabulary in this context.

BTW this doesn't make me a better person, just a bit wiser in my choice of words. I've got no business calling anyone names when I don't like to be on the receiving end of that myself. When my bad behaviour manifests itself it reminds me to strive to be better and that I am to live by the commandment in the Torah - "V'ahavta l'rayacha kamocha" ("You shall love your neighbor as yourself.) Something that is much easier said than done and is a constant struggle for everyone - humans being what we are and the world being what it is (as in far from perfect). I had this explained to me by a rabbi as "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor."

[Nat]

Okay Snow, no Dylan in the equation. The title of this thread uses the word "breeder," so I'm not sure how to talk about how hurtful that word is, without using the word. We could say b******.

For me to talk about that word and how it has harmed me, I would talk about patriarchy. But that's me.

Not trying to nag, but just not getting how I'm not on topic.

Heart

I would love to hear what you have to say about the word, including the patriarchy part.

[firie]

OFFS..

Lets just start a thread called

"out of context fuck ups"

or

"let's kick Dylan's ass"

Seriously,

We'll save space and could maybe post pics too!

Hey pretty girl!

I did it already this morning. His ass is officially kicked.

I don't like the term, because it's obviously hurtful. Dylan and I know that. I wouldn't refer to my mom that way, nor would Dylan. I think though I have used it in the context of saying that "patriarchy expects women to be as such" when clearly women are not and should not be seen as such.

But then we've already had the round and round discussion on that.

We respect women. Dylan respects women (or I wouldn't be with him).

One last note...I repped Sue to say that when I was a caseworker with CPS years ago, judges actually used the term (and one in particular here in Austin) to throw at women to make them feel bad for having so many children without thought as to what was happening to the children. Fathers were referred to as "sperm donors" and the mothers, just vessels for that, or the B word. It was gross and humiliating for women. Nevermind that the judge did not realize in one particular case that the woman had been gangraped oh say 7 or 8 times. Nevermind that in another case a woman had been raped and decided to keep and struggle through raising her daughter. Nevermind any of that.

**ETA** (I am not saying or condoning that a judge should ever use the term against women, but am pointing out specifically how assumptions were made and placed on the women despite her circumstance, which is some really fucked up shit all the way around, so please don't misread me here! Thanks.)

And Snow: Will you please buy me a cuppa coffee instead? I promise, I am much better company!!!

[waxnrope]

I would love to hear what you have to say about the word, including the patriarchy part.

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?

[friskyfemme]

After reading through this thread and responses to words used in other threads perceived as 'offensive', I have to say I am sitting here with a wrinkled brow.

I am thinking that some here just enjoy debating, some here are supersensitive to word choices, some are narcisstic, some are referees, some are educators, some are activists.

I agree that words are powerful weapons and powerful expressions of thought. We, humans, in years past were raised by the rules determined in our small corner of the world in which we were raised. This includes morals, ideas, spiritual belief, image of self,
image of others and opportunities. IMHO, when we are adults, we have the ability to decipher whether what we were exposed to growing up 'fits' into the collective Society(whatever it is). I firmly believe in exchange of ideas and opinions. What I strongly object to is the 'one ups' some seem to have in response to another's opinion. I don't think anyone should have to defend what word or phrases they find offensive. If it offenses anyone, than once I you're aware of it. Dont repeat it! (unless of course that is your intention than the you 'deserve/wish' to be dissed)

What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive.

This from a mother, grandmother, woman, femme, lover of stones, human being.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am confused by all this right....

I can't understand how someone asking for the word breeder not to be used to describe a woman's pregnancy can not be understood..

I am not stupid I understand the patriarchy, and what was hammered into us.

But can't it be understood that maybe when some of us hear that word, it makes us cringe, cause god damn I was pregnant, not bred, and it was a terrifying, happy, life altering experience..

It fucking SUCKS to have it reduced to nothing when someone calls you a breeder or refers to it as a breeder thing or have been bred or any insinuation of that...

Can't you get that? Cause that is what we are saying at least I am.

Damn, it would be like me being an inconsiderate ass hat and refering to someone as hy when they are she...


end of rant.

[JakeTulane]

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?

(respectfully)

wax... I say .. why not this thread? That is what this thread was started about. .. the usage of the word breeder and other words that make us "cringe" (as Snow said). I believe Nat posed a good question to Heart in asking what her feelings are on the word usage and the patriarchy that she mentioned as well.

[Liam]

What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive.


That was the original intention of this thread.

[The_Lady_Snow]

as would I although, perhaps not on this thread?


Why the hell not in here?

We aren't some frail wall flowers who can't hear the word. damn.

Let's have the hard discussion about the word. How it's used to oppress, to describe, and to hurt women with..

It's what this thread is about hurtful terms here lemme requote the title of the thread for ya..


Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.


I even emphasized it for ya

[The_Lady_Snow]

That was the original intention of this thread.

Right????

:seeingstars:

[Dylan]

Why the hell not in here?

We aren't some frail wall flowers who can't hear the word. damn.

Let's have the hard discussion about the word. How it's used to oppress, to describe, and to hurt women with..

It's what this thread is about hurtful terms here lemme requote the title of the thread for ya..


Breeder and other words we use to hurt our own.


I even emphasized it for ya

Ok, now wait a minute, because when I brought up that exact conversation...you said not to use the word.

When I made the points you've said here regarding the patriarchy, you said you didn't want to hear the word because it's been used against you and you're sensitive to it.

So what is it? You want to have the conversation, or are we not allowed to say the word. I'm getting mixed messages


Dylan

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ok, now wait a minute, because when I brought up that exact conversation...you said not to use the word.

When I made the points you've said here regarding the patriarchy, you said you didn't want to hear the word because it's been used against you and you're sensitive to it.

So what is it? You want to have the conversation, or are we not allowed to say the word. I'm getting mixed messages


Dylan

yanno..

I am done...

I think I have explained over and over and over what I meant.

Use the word, don't use it I don't give a fuck at this point

[Oneida]

I've used the term in reference to straight women because, if I'm being honest, it was a way to disparage them and their choices in order to make me feel better about the fact that I did not have children/family of my own/picket fence (and at that/those moments DID want that). Let's face it, it's a mean/ugly word used to put someone down and elevate oneself. Why do we do that? For my example, I'd say it was #2.


Why We Judge (just a little list found on the internet w/ a quick search)

1. We don’t know how to love.
2. We are insecure.
3. We are influenced by our past conditioning.
4. We are afraid of something in someone else.
5. We are afraid of something within ourselves.
6. We are hiding the fact that we don’t understand something.
7. Our position of power feels threatened.
8. We are unaware about how our thoughts become reality.
9. We aren’t evolved enough to have empathy for others.
10. It’s a habit.

[SassyLeo]

In the 80's/90's when my dad came out in SF, breeder was a word I heard ALL THE TIME. Not specifically in company of family or friends (though I am sure it happened) but just out in the world. Especially in the Castro on days when a demonstration was taking place on the corner or during Pride. Again, this was 15 to 20 years ago. Even though I was a teenager at the time, I knew what it meant and that it was used as a derogatory term aimed at someone who had just said something homophobic or in "gay boy talk" as I call it or caddy, gossipy talk - (again years ago...)

I do not use the word and rarely hear it these days in my world. I have never heard the word being used in a positive way.

In terms of women being bred to have children, I agree with the history of patriarchy in the world...in old traditional, religious cultures, women get married and have children. It is what they believe women are "to do". This is a -generalization-. I'm not saying all women are this way and all cultures are this way, etc.

The last century has changed and shifted what women's roles are, specifically in more lieberal countries, obviously. I think women are raised to make their own choices about children. We are not forced to have them. We also can have them without a husband or partner. We can adopt. We have choices.

My parents had very traditional and incredibly dysfunctional and mostly pretty crappy upbringings and they set out to do pretty much the exact opposite with me.

I decided many years ago that I did not want to have children. A personal choice. I've always been upfront with my parents about not wanting children of my own and they support me either way. I NEVER felt pressure to get married, not get married, have kids, not have kids, I've always been told I have choices.

Of course, my parents are queer...so I realize I am kind of an anomaly ;)

And I have friends who have children and I think it is wonderful! I admire their love and dedication. I love being a pseudo auntie. I watched one of my best friends through her pregnancy and birth of her daughter. It was amazing. And if someone had deemed her a breeder from that incredible experience... well, that's awful.

Of course, when my grandfather died a couple of years ago, I went with my parents to his funeral with a ton of family I hadn't seen in years. One of the first things out of my 78 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

[Dylan]

yanno..

I am done...

I think I have explained over and over and over what I meant.

Use the word, don't use it I don't give a fuck at this point
Alright. I get what you're saying.

My original use of the word was in a patriarchal sense in that women have been viewed as baby making machines (aka breeders) for thousands and thousands of years. It's laced and woven into each of the three main religions that have ruled western society.

It's even the basis for this whole "mothers are saints" idea that has seeped into this thread. Becoming pregnant is not necessarily a 'sacred' act. It's a biological process. Giving birth doesn't automatically make any person a sacred being, saintly figure, loving person, or exalted being. It simply means a biological process has taken place. Yet, once again...thanks to patrairchy, when a person (generally a married woman) completes this process that person is seen as a sacred being (mother mary full of grace) (unless that person is unwed, at which point that person (meaning the woman) is seen as 'soiled'.

And yes, I'm speaking patriarchally and not about myself, particular people, ALL men, etc


Dylan

[Oneida]

One of the first things out of my 75 year old great-uncle's mouth was: 'hey you are the last of the <family name>; how old are you honey? thinking about kids anytime soon?'

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

[Dylan]

I really don't want this thread to turn into what Dylan thinks about how women are groomed. I get what hy is saying and I hear hym.


Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail

[Dylan]

When I came out to my family, I was around 24 years old. One of my Uncles told me he was said because he really thought I would have been a wonderful mother.

I can't remember what happened yesterday, but some comments live forever in our memories, don't they.

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan

[Nat]

I sure love my mom. I guess that's the main feeling I'm getting from this thread, reading back over it this morning (okay afternoon but it's still morning to me).

I think conception, pregnancy and birth are pretty damn sacred. I think life is pretty damn sacred. I'm extremely grateful that I exist. My mom could have simply aborted my inconvenient ass, but she instead has made a lifetime of sacrifices for my sake. To me, that's pretty sacred and I am extremely grateful. I have a friend who got pregnant in her teens, carried that child to term and gave him up for adoption. I think that's pretty sacred too. I've had friends who had abortions because they felt their own well-being was more important, and I think this also is sacred because it honors life. I know there are bad moms, but if nothing else, to get here, we were all carried around for approximately 9 months taking up space and feeding off of another person's body when we were too small and fragile and undeveloped to survive outside the womb, and there's something sacred about that to me.

[blush]

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

[JustJo]

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Interesting point.

The number of children that is considered desirable or even acceptable varies alot from culture to culture as well.

Friends of mine in Switzerland told me that they were celebrated for their first child, got modest congratulations on their second, and then dirty looks and snide comments in public from strangers after their third. They are white, middle class, professionals...yet Swiss culture evidently frowns on families of more than 2 children as being environmentally and personally irresponsible.

Guess it all depends on where you're coming from...

[friskyfemme]

'What I suggest is a thread where members can identify words/phrases that they find offensive'.

Hey guess what! Medusa start this thread in December 09. Thanks Medusa!
Maybe this thread shoud be required reading before posting! :blushing:

[betenoire]

There is also a classist element to how many children are acceptable.

I've wondered if the show, "17 kids and counting" would be as popular if the parents weren't white, wealthy, and Christian.

Isn't that show only popular in terms of rubbernecking? I don't know one person (in real life) who doesn't make fun of the Duggars. Hell, ---I--- make fun of the Duggars. I think of them as irresponsible and self-congratulatory.

[SuperFemme]

Just an FYI

I'm a he...not a hy or hym


Thanks,
Dylan

End Derail


just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

[Dylan]

just an fyi...respect is given where respect is due.

so i'm fine with he he he

can you not use breeder? curious?

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

[firie]

I think some women are going to view motherhood as very sacred, and so it indeed is. Some women are going to view it as torture, have no connection to a child or children, to the point of harming that child or killing that child. I think sacred as an absolute is or can be very problematic, because it gets into the heart of the myth that "every woman should achieve motherhood to be valued" which for those that don't really want the experience of motherhood but through process of socialization, peer pressure, religious thinking, or whatever else influences that which is beyond a woman's absolute and outright individual will, well, some of those women can and do find themselves along with fetus and child in a great deal of pain perhaps.

I remember many years ago clearly debating with a friend about the "natural" instincts of motherhood, and she schooled me in the knowledge that loving a child wasn't a natural instinct of all women. It made me change my thought process on it all (I was like 23 or so, I think, so very naive). It taught me not to think in absolutes.

I don't know if that makes any sense or is a derail, but I view motherhood as sacred, when it is sacred (meaning that a mother views it as such). I don't view motherhood as sacred when clearly it is not sacred, say in the cases where it has only brought the worst of feelings toward motherhood because, well, motherhood was the mark of oppression and not one of joy, as viewed in the personal experience of a mother. I guess I am speaking from the place, that if a mother told me that she did not view her experience of motherhood as sacred, but instead as tortuous (it's been said to me before), then I wouldn't argue with her and tell her that she is indeed wrong on that, and ALL of motherhood is sacred. I hope this makes sense.

I am not a mother, so therefore, my personal experience cannot inform me if that experience is indeed sacred. I could very well be the mother that views it differently so I cannot judge there and say all of motherhood is sacred.

[SuperFemme]

Soooo, are you saying you decided to change up my pronoun because of a disagreement in a thread?


Dylan

no. i was typing fast and using a default male pronoun.
confusing a y for an e is hardly changing your pronoun Dylan.

were we disagreeing?

[Martina]

i had two meetings with parents this week. One adopted a kid whose birth mother had used drugs during her pregnancy. This kid has a conduct disorder. This mother has always done everything she could for her son, spent every dime she could on tutoring, counseling, etc. She works with him daily and is researching right now a placement for him beyond what we can provide. What would her life have been like had she not adopted this child? Much much easier. She has stuck with this kid through thick and thin. He's her son, and she would do anything for him. He's a sweet kid, but difficult is an understatement.

i had another meeting this week with a mother who speaks no English. Her son is seriously emotionally disturbed. She has tried for years to get this kid help. She finally got it this year. She prevailed, and now her child has a chance to live a decent life.

A couple of weeks ago i met with a grandmother raising her grandson. The student is staying out sometimes all night. The grandmother is worried sick, haunted. She is this very grown up working woman. Clearly a woman of great dignity. i offered her a little support and helped work with her grandson so he'd at least call her. She teared up.

These are the parents i see. These are usually poor. Many do not speak English. They are all people of color. They live in or near an unbelievably dangerous neighborhood, and there is the constant threat of violence in their children's lives. They have every disadvantage it is possible to have in this state. And that's how they parent. They are not breeders.

i am going to alternative school graduation today. i have been several times before. You'll never see happier parents in your life. Many of the graduates are kids who others gave up on, including their school district. Trust me, most districts don't put much money into alternative education. When students graduate, it's a testament to them and to their parents.

The only parent i have worked with who made a bad decision concerning her child was middle class and, ironically, an educator. Her ego couldn't take the stigma of putting her son in a certain placement, so the kid didn't get the help he needed. He is now in jail.

[evolveme]

I think sacred as an absolute is or can be very problematic, because it gets into the heart of the myth that "every woman should achieve motherhood to be valued" which for those that don't really want the experience of motherhood but through process of socialization, peer pressure, religious thinking, or whatever else influences that which is beyond a woman's absolute and outright individual will, well, some of those women can and do find themselves along with fetus and child in a great deal of pain perhaps.

My experience of motherhood is sacred to me.

This does not erase the reality of innumerable women and girls all over the world who are daily forced into the condition of motherhood against their ability or right to choose such a condition for themselves. To denounce the use of the term "breeder" even in an effort to construct a framework in understanding how it is used against women by the very paradigm that has created these conditions, seems to me, another method of limiting our choices in how we work to combat what has happened/is happening to us.

No one here - not one person - has argued that this word is not harmful. The original intent, to my reading, was to discuss exactly how harmful the basis for the use of this word is. And, yes, it's pretty fucking horrific. But not to be able to utilize it as a means of discussing the origins of its nefarious uses -- whether mine, yours or the patriarchy's -- is only another way to make secret what should be emblazoned across the consciousness of every woman everywhere.

[SuperFemme]

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. So I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation. :candle:

[WolfyOne]

Growing up in Chicago and hanging out in bars back then, I heard the word often. Usually though it was to describe heterosexuals that picked on homosexuals. So, I never thought about it being demeaning then. After reading posts here, I understand where all of you are coming from. Funny how the definition of a word and the way it's used over the last 30 years has changed so much.

SF thanks for enlightening me on a word I haven't heard in ages nor use in my everyday vocabulary.

[SuperFemme]

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

[Dylan]

I feel the need to come back here and clarify.

The word breeder as uttered by Dylan and my reaction to that word have nothing to do with each other. Light years apart.

I didn't do a good job of making that clear, in fact I made it feel like Dylan was responsible for my reaction.

Dylan, I am sorry for that. I am also sorry for using the wrong pronoun. I was typing fast and hadn't realized I'd used "hy" rather than "he" in reference to you.

Suddenly I found myself in a place where I wanted to dig my heels in and that is not conducive to making sense. Si I apologize.

You can have your patriarchal cross reference.

I hope you in turn can understand how hurtful and erasing the term can be to me as a Femme.

This doesn't have to be an either or situation. :candle:

Thanks for your apology.

I understand exactly what you're saying about the term breeder feeling erasing and hurtful. As someone who is female-bodied, I get what you're saying, and I agree with you. Firie has already explained this isn't a word we use (in the sense you're speaking of).

My use of it was *intentional* and meant to be...er...um...what's the word I want...offensive I guess, because I DO find the way the patriarchy views women and grooms girls to be baby-making machines *offensive*.

Again, being that I was making a correlation between FLDS (which is a horribly misogynist society which openly treats women as such through numerous grooming techniques) and mainstream US/Western culture and the sexism/grooming therein, my use of the word was *intentional*

Yes, I agree 100% that the term is offensive...that's why I used it...it was the whole point of the original post...that it IS offensive the way girls are groomed


Dylan

[evolveme]

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

[SuperFemme]

What I really wanted to explore was the offensive way we use the term against one another (or anyone) but I can see that that is limiting so let's just discuss.

[firie]

My experience of motherhood is sacred to me.

This does not erase the reality of innumerable women and girls all over the world who are daily forced into the condition of motherhood against their ability or right to choose such a condition for themselves. To denounce the use of the term "breeder" even in an effort to construct a framework in understanding how it is used against women by the very paradigm that has created these conditions, seems to me, another method of limiting our choices in how we work to combat what has happened/is happening to us.

No one here - not one person - has argued that this word is not harmful. The original intent, to my reading, was to discuss exactly how harmful the basis for the use of this word is. And, yes, it's pretty fucking horrific. But not to be able to utilize it as a means of discussing the origins of its nefarious uses -- whether mine, yours or the patriarchy's -- is only another way to make secret what should be emblazoned across the consciousness of every woman everywhere.

Also, and I meant to state this in the post preceding, piggybacking off firie's words:

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

Even if we don't have "religious beliefs," our "spiritual" ones can and do matter, particularly at the level that they begin to bleed over into points of public policy. In the U.S., anyway, an unfortunate percentage of laws are formed at the behest of religious and spiritual bias.

Exactly. And I would admit to typically trying to avoid the word "sacred" when describing motherhood unless a mother tells me that is her word to describe her experience, because I tend to quite shy away from words that do have a certain "religious" quality to them (it's my stubborn atheism perhaps) . But if that is the experience of the mother, then that, to me, is a beautiful, marvelous thing.

[evolveme]

I was half-way through with labor before I realized I was in it (5 centimeters dilated). She was born in under 2 hours. My obstetrician looked at me and said, "You need to be camped out on the hospital grounds the last two months of your next pregnancy. You're a natural breeder."

He really said that. I was twenty years-old. I knew enough to be mortified.

[Martina]

So how about saying parenting is or should be sacred -- in the sense of being among a culture's highest values.

Parenting should be more highly valued and rewarded in our culture.

Raising girls with no other goal other than that they will procreate is dehumanizing. (i don't even like the word "grooming," btw.)

But the people who experience it are still fully human. And parenting itself is not dehumanizing. On the contrary. For most people it is an experience that gets them more in touch with their humanity.

For others it is a nightmare. That is when we should all help.

Part of the reason it isn't as pleasant as it should be here in the west has nothing to do with how voluntary it is, but the fact that parents are left on their own without the support of extended family and community.

But the assumption that women who are parents involuntarily are necessarily living any lesser a life than you and i are is incredibly elitist. Do i think the world should change so that all women get to choose? Absolutely. But those who aren't given the choice in the sense that we mean here -- and that is probably most women on the planet -- are not by definition dehumanized by this. It's arrogant to assume so.

One of my best friends -- a man -- just called. He didn't really want to have kids, but his wife did. He chose to have children in the sense that he didn't absolutely refuse. Well as things turned out, his wife's career took off in a big way. Guess who became the primary caretaker? This has been the case for over 14 years now. This guy is a genius. He is highly educated. He is emotionally healthy. All he has done other than parent for these many years is teach part-time. That's a contribution. But i am sure some people might think all that IQ power and education have gone to waste. i do not. He does not. In fact, he has loved every minute of it. His kids, especially, do not.

[evolveme]

But the assumption that women who are parents involuntarily are necessarily living any lesser a life than you and i are is incredibly elitist. Do i think the world should change so that all women get to choose? Absolutely. But those who aren't given the choice in the sense that we mean here -- and that is probably most women on the planet -- are not by definition dehumanized by this. It's arrogant to assume so.



I'm confused by this assertion. While I think that much of what we assume about the rest of the world can be and is effectually ignorant, I'm unclear on what looks like a contradiction in standards in the above remarks.

While a certain contingent holds that Western interference in, for example, the genital mutilation of girls taking place in certain African nations is misplaced and "elitist," I disagree. I believe that our global citizenship is more important than our ethnocentricities would have us believe, and that while we need always be mindful of other regions' cultures and perspectives, whenever and wherever a woman or girl is being harmed in the name of social ideology, I say down with that social ideology. But that's me, just one of the 'elite.'

Women and girls all over the world are harmed and, in fact, killed because of a lack of access to contraception, no access to safe and legal abortion, and forced social ideologies which impress upon them a standard which says 'no' to education but 'must' to childbirth as soon as their bodies are capable and until their bodies are no longer able. I do not and cannot see how this way of life is acceptable for any of my sisters. I'm just that arrogant.

[Nat]

To insist that all of motherhood is necessarily and by virtue a sacred thing, is really only a hair different than the very real and damaging religious dogmatism that insists that women are not worthy unless they achieve motherhood, that this is their function, and that this is the purpose of the union of marriage - a concept which is used to prohibit the LBGTQI community from access to that right.

I'm not sure about insisting- I don't insist that other people agree with me and to me there is a definite difference between faith, belief, dogmatism and the perversion of religious beliefs to control others.

It's part of my own belief system that all life is sacred. I have loved very dearly a few people who had extremely bad - criminally terrible, unfeeling, thoughtless - mothers. But they still gave life - by choice - to people I have loved very much and I do personally consider that a sacred act on their part.

I also think in a few of those cases, abortion or giving the kid up for adoption would have been the better choice. I recently lost somebody I loved very much. Witnessing the pain of his childhood was the best argument I ever encountered for abortion. When parents are incapable of loving their kids, of refraining from abusing them, of abstaining from cruelty toward them, of refraining from drinking or drugging through their pregnancies or parenting, then abortion may well be the kindest thing a person could do for their would-be child. But I still consider the act of bringing a person into this world to be a sacred act and a sacrifice on its own. I don't think it erases terrible behavior.

I know that's part of *my* belief system and I don't have any desire to force that belief onto anybody else. I just hate seeing that belief attacked here as it was earlier when somebody else posted about their own spiritual beliefs about and appreciation for motherhood.

I think it's really easy from the outside to be derisive or dismissive about other people's spiritual or religious beliefs, and I hate to see that happen within this thread or in this community.

Yes, there are dangers when people dogmatize a belief in the sacredness of life or motherhood and then use that to implement laws that oppress.

I think there are also dangers in treating life and motherhood as entirely unsacred things. I think doing so leads to some really horrific ideologies and practices (slavery, the Holocaust, genocide - incidentally all situations in which the forced "breeding" of women has happened).

ps. when I use the word "sacred" it is from a religious/spiritual place. There are other words that an atheist might be more comfortable using. I think there are atheists who very much see the value of life, who can certainly recognize the difference between birth and death, who can see and understand how much is given in the creation of another human being. "Sacred" may be a religious word, but I'm pretty sure there are atheists who value the lives, experiences, sacrifices and hard work involved in carrying and giving birth to a child and/or raising one.

[evolveme]

I think it's really easy from the outside to be derisive or dismissive about other people's spiritual or religious beliefs, and I hate to see that happen within this thread or in this community.



Natalie,

Just as in my response to your private question, my post was not a direct response to your post, although my thinking did evolve from it, and as I said to you privately, I appreciated your thoughts very much on a personal level. There was nothing "derisive" or "dismissive" in my words here, nor my intent. I meant only to speak to the other side of what damages women in terms of how patriarchy has labeled us for sole use as "breeders," and that is to discuss the slippery slope we encounter with the sacred mother archetype. It's a lot to hang our hopes on.

I am not in the practice of dismissing peoples' religious or spiritual beliefs (I believe this is truly rude), only in examining the results our belief systems have on our thinking and our lives.

Julie

[Random]

While a certain contingent holds that Western interference in, for example, the genital mutilation of girls taking place in certain African nations is misplaced and "elitist," I disagree. I believe that our global citizenship is more important than our ethnocentricies would have us believe, and that while we need always be mindful of other regions' cultures and perspectives, whenever and wherever a woman or girl is being harmed in the name of social ideology, I say down with that social ideology. But that's me, just one of the 'elite.'

Women and girls all over the world are harmed and, in fact, killed because of a lack of access to contraception, no access to safe and legal abortion, and forced social ideologies which impress upon them a standard which says 'no' to education but 'must' to childbirth as soon as their bodies are capable and until their bodies are no longer able. I do not and cannot see how this way of life is acceptable for any of my sisters. I'm just that arrogant.




I'm one of the people who says that country/nation/people need to do it for themselves, and that it's not the west place to place our standards on any other country but our own..

Not as a cop out.. not because I don't hate what is happening to women/children around the world..

But simply because... The center doesn't hold.

When you try to force your way of thinking on a people who think another way.. It doesn't work.. Because you are going to have to police those people.. Make them live by your laws... Watch them... Make them dependent on someone else to enforce the laws..

It's only when the people of that country/nation/culture stand up for them selves and so.. HELL NO!!!!!! That true change in a positive way is possible... When people are ready and willing to die for that freedom, that change happens...

I come from a very long line of men abusing their women... It was a way of life.. No one thought twice about back handing their wife is she got smart with them...

My mom tells the story of the first time my dad went to swing at her.. She told him, that he had better kill her with that first blow, because she wasn't going to be hit and if that meant she had to kill him first, then that was alright with her.. (paraphrase)

My parents have been married 45 yrs in September and he has never laid a hand on her... Some of her sisters weren't so lucky.... Some of my cousins... But some were.. and from my mother generation, the cycle has been broken for them and their daughters... It spreads out like a wave...

I have never been hit by a lover, partner, or boyfriend... Because of my mother.. Because i say.. you better kill me.. because I'm NOT being hit.. It's something I am willing to die over...

In my mind it's always like an abused person... You can remove them, you can councile them, but until they are ready, change is not happening..

We can offer resorces, support, money.. But they have to do the work...

[evolveme]

Random,

While I hear what you're saying, this essentially sounds like the Bootstraps argument to me. Sometimes, somebody ain't got no straps, you know what I'm saying? There has been a time that I was so down that not even my own legs would hold me.

Granted, it takes more than coming in and stopping the immediate threat to truly end a systemic problem like global reproductive rights issues. I certainly don't have the answers. The whole system of patriarchal influence needs to go, if you ask me (and clearly that's not a real-world plan for the time being).

People (women & girls especially) need help. They need to help each other.

[Dylan]

I wonder why conversations about U.S. specific sexism and misogyny always/often turn into conversation about global sexism and misogyny and focusing on issues "over there".

I still contend that women/girls ARE *still* seen as baby makers, and I also still contend that they're groomed to be such the second they come out of the womb in this country...this one, right c'here.

I also still contend that this originally stems from thousands of years of religious tyranny, and that it is fully perpetuated in children's television/advertising/clothing options/etc.

I would also like to add that the Sacred Mother b.s. is what keeps many women covered in burqas and such (which many people on this site find offensive to women, yet some of those same people don't see how we do the same thing in this country to 'protect' our women).


Dylan...intrigued by many things today

P.S. If someone would please change the weather in Austin to something more pleasant, I would immediately get offline

[Random]

Random,

While I hear what you're saying, this essentially sounds like the Bootstraps argument to me. Sometimes, somebody ain't got no straps, you know what I'm saying? There has been a time that I was so down that not even my own legs would hold me.

Granted, it takes more than coming in and stopping the immediate threat to truly end a systemic problem like global reproductive rights issues. I certainly don't have the answers. The whole system of patriarchal influence needs to go, if you ask me (and clearly that's not a real-world plan for the time being).

People (women & girls especially) need help. They need to help each other.

I actually totaly agree with you...

Help, support, education is needed... But to use your analagy... they are your legs to support you.. no one else's will work for you.. Because in the end.. there is only you who can say what is worth the price that needs to be paid..

[Nat]

Natalie,

Just as in my response to your private question, my post was not a direct response to your post, although my thinking did evolve from it, and as I said to you privately, I appreciated your thoughts very much on a personal level. There was nothing "derisive" or "dismissive" in my words here, nor my intent. I meant only to speak to the other side of what damages women in terms of how patriarchy has labeled us for sole use as "breeders," and that is to discuss the slippery slope we encounter with the sacred mother archetype. It's a lot to hang our hopes on.

I am not in the practice of dismissing peoples' religious or spiritual beliefs (I believe this is truly rude), only in examining the results our belief systems have on our thinking and our lives.

Julie

My response to your post was similar to your response to mine.

"my post was not a direct response to your post, although my thinking did evolve from it"

I quoted you and responded, but my response more evolved from yours than rebutted it.

I have tried very hard to be clear in both my posts what I do believe is sacred about creating life, while not slipping down the slippery slope you reference.

I may be a bit sensitive about this subject. The majority of my friends are highly intelligent atheists who like to pick everything apart - especially other people's religious beliefs - and I think it's an area where i'm experiencing some level of soreness/fatigue. The honoring of life, honoring the sacrifices involved with creating life, those things aren't so much of an intellectual-debate-type thing for me. So maybe I shouldn't have brought them up in this thread. (I do worship a mother goddess, for what it's worth).

Thanks for your thoughts, Julie. I really heart your brain. I was not intending to say *you* were being dismissive or derisive - more that I hoped things weren't going to go down that path. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

[Mr. Moon]

Right?

My mother was/is upset, because she'll "never have grandchildren"

It was one of the first things out of her mouth

When I was about 10ish (I guess...I don't really remember), my mother also told me, "One day you'll meet a man like your [step] dad and have a bunch of kids"

Her nice catholic upbringing left her feeling like a failure, because she never had twelve kids. And naturally, I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of her 'dream' to have a shit ton of them.

And ironically, she was considered the town Hester Prynne because she'd had one out of wedlock...and considered herself such on top of being a failure for not producing 11 more kids. It was (still is) a completely fucked up (patriarchal) view. A woman isn't 'useful' unless she produces boatloads of offspring...but even if she DOES produce boatloads of offspring, if she doesn't do it FOR a man, she's still considered 'bad' (as evidenced by Firie's comments re: judges' comments that women are breeders...even if they're raped).


Dylan


I'm sorry that you were raised in that way, Dylan. It's obviously affected your view on so many things.

My Mom said to me the day after my hysterectomy..."Well now I really know you won't have children". I was pretty stunned, considering she knew I was gay for at least 10 years at that point. No to mention *I* knew I did not and had never wanted children. However, she did not force her view upon me. I get the feeling, Dylan, that you believe thinking about your Daughters AND Sons having a family is a derogotory thing. That is somehow translates to the negative. I have to say, not always. I think it's quite natural for a parent to want the best for thier children. And if they think the white picket fence world is the best thing in the whole world, then that's what they wish for them! It doesn't have to be about patriarcle (blah blah blah however you spell that I'm sure the police will fix it) bullshit. My Father, for the record, stated "I just want her to be happy", when he finally came to terms with me being gay.

My 2 cents on that part.

As far as nasty words.....Oneida's list says it best. We ALL use derogitory terms at some point in our lives. And they certainly aren't meant to make friends! And yep, it shows our misgivings.

-Mr. Moon

[Dylan]

I'm sorry that you were raised in that way, Dylan. It's obviously affected your view on so many things.

My Mom said to me the day after my hysterectomy..."Well now I really know you won't have children". I was pretty stunned, considering she knew I was gay for at least 10 years at that point. No to mention *I* knew I did not and had never wanted children. However, she did not force her view upon me. I get the feeling, Dylan, that you believe thinking about your Daughters AND Sons having a family is a derogotory thing. That is somehow translates to the negative. I have to say, not always. I think it's quite natural for a parent to want the best for thier children. And if they think the white picket fence world is the best thing in the whole world, then that's what they wish for them! It doesn't have to be about patriarcle (blah blah blah however you spell that I'm sure the police will fix it) bullshit. My Father, for the record, stated "I just want her to be happy", when he finally came to terms with me being gay.

My 2 cents on that part.



-Mr. Moon

Moon, I like ya' a lot, and I'm saying this with a lot of respect.

It bothers me that you've made assumptions about the way I was raised and that you've assumed you 'know where my views come from' based on a few sentences I've posted about my mother's Catholic-induced views.

Also, I have no idea how anything I've said in this thread or the other translates into wanting a family is bad. Seriously, if I have posted something in particular that would lead you to think that's what I'm saying, I truly apologize.

Of course (most) people want the best for their kids.

I sincerely have no idea how anything I've said has implied what I've highlighted above


Dylan

[Mr. Moon]

From what I read, that was my take home message.

I'm not gonna play the quote thing. Takes too much time for something that seems silly.

I meant no disrespect. The quote I quoted from you seemed clear to me.

I honestly thought you laid it out there. That's what I got from it.

Again, no disrespect meant, Dylan.
-Mr. Moon

[Martina]

While a certain contingent holds that Western interference in, for example, the genital mutilation of girls taking place in certain African nations is misplaced and "elitist," I disagree. i do too. And that's an extreme example of . . . of not what we are talking about.

whenever and wherever a woman or girl is being harmed in the name of social ideology, I say down with that social ideology. But that's me, just one of the 'elite.'

Calling the parenthood of people who may not have had an option to be other than parents a form of harm is extremely ethnocentric and privileged.



Women and girls all over the world are harmed and, in fact, killed because of a lack of access to contraception, no access to safe and legal abortion, and forced social ideologies which impress upon them a standard which says 'no' to education but 'must' to childbirth as soon as their bodies are capable and until their bodies are no longer able.

And these are extreme cases. Not uncommon, but extreme. It is not how most women of the world feel about being parents. And to characterize their parenthood exclusively in these pathological terms is ethnocentric.

i just read a book called Three Cups of Tea about building schools in rural Pakistan. It's amazing how much those villagers -- the men of those villages -- want their daughters to be educated. Were there a few asshole mullahs saying it's wrong? Yes. There are places in the world where we only hear bad stories about -- places where miracles are happening.

WHo would have imagined thirty years ago the success that international development has had through investing in women's work -- the work of mothers who want money to educate their children. They are changing the world -- for all of us.

[Martina]

I would also like to add that the Sacred Mother b.s. is what keeps many women covered in burqas and such


i can't resist. Dylan, this is SO second wave. ;)

[SuperFemme]

While the discussion on whether or not Mother is Universally sacred is one that is worth having...can we get back to what the OP was about here?

Which is words that we use to hurt each other within the Queer Community and why.

At a recent local event I was asked why I married a "he-she". Who even says that within the contexts of Queer World anymore?
I was stunned into silence to be honest. Which I regret. Because that turned into me being so mad I could only cry and I hate being in that spot.

[Martina]

This phrase has been used a lot against women of color, particularly immigrant women and Latinas. i think it's worth thinking about that.

This is hallmark of postcolonial feminism, this disagreement with western feminists who think of having children as oppressive and dangerous and just ruinous to oneself and society. There are tons of articles about this. Or there were back in the day.

i think characterizing women who have children under circumstances different than we would choose as victims is offensive in the extreme, and it is often women of minority cultures within the U.S. or women of the developing world who get characterized this way.

My instructional assistant, a Latina, is pregnant. This is her third child. She can afford this child. She owns a house. Yadda yadda. When she was talking about what she thought the perfect sized family was -- four children -- my co-teacher, a single white man, rolled his eyes. i am so glad she didn't see.

My uncle, a rich white gay man from LA, and his partner talk alot about how immigrants and their (in their minds, too many) children have overwhelmed and destroyed the public institutions -- hospitals, schools, etc. -- of southern California. Part of their discourse is this totally insincere concern for the poor women who have to carry the burden of taking care of all those children. i like my uncle a lot, but this stuff is racist.

The use of the word we are discussing is often racist, at least here in California.

[Martina]

While the discussion on whether or not Mother is Universally sacred is one that is worth having...can we get back to what the OP was about here?

Which is words that we use to hurt each other within the Queer Community and why.

At a recent local event I was asked why I married a "he-she". Who even says that within the contexts of Queer World anymore?
I was stunned into silence to be honest. Which I regret. Because that turned into me being so mad I could only cry and I hate being in that spot.

Sorry. Saw this after i posted. i could delete, i guess. But i am all invested in the post now. :|

[SuperFemme]

Sorry. Saw this after i posted. i could delete, i guess. But i am all invested in the post now. :|

LOL. No, by all means, don't delete. Now I'm invested as a Latina. I give.

[Liam]

While the discussion on whether or not Mother is Universally sacred is one that is worth having...can we get back to what the OP was about here?

Which is words that we use to hurt each other within the Queer Community and why.

At a recent local event I was asked why I married a "he-she". Who even says that within the contexts of Queer World anymore?
I was stunned into silence to be honest. Which I regret. Because that turned into me being so mad I could only cry and I hate being in that spot.

I guess the kind of person in the Queer World, who would use "he-she" to refer to your spouse, is the same kind of person in the Non-Queer world, who would also use that phrase—someone who is insensitive, ignorant and/or fearful.

[SuperFemme]

I guess the kind of person in the Queer World, who would use "he-she" to refer to your spouse, is the same kind of person in the Non-Queer world, who would also use that phrase—someone who is insensitive, ignorant and/or fearful.


Good point. I suppose I am the kind of girl that hold us to a higher standard? I am just completely floored when somebody who has had to navigate the world as a Queer uses slurs against other Queers (or anyone for that matter). I know that is not a realistic world view, but I can't help it. It stings a bit more when it comes from another Queer.

[apretty]

I wonder why conversations about U.S. specific sexism and misogyny always/often turn into conversation about global sexism and misogyny and focusing on issues "over there".

I still contend that women/girls ARE *still* seen as baby makers, and I also still contend that they're groomed to be such the second they come out of the womb in this country...this one, right c'here.

I also still contend that this originally stems from thousands of years of religious tyranny, and that it is fully perpetuated in children's television/advertising/clothing options/etc.

I would also like to add that the Sacred Mother b.s. is what keeps many women covered in burqas and such (which many people on this site find offensive to women, yet some of those same people don't see how we do the same thing in this country to 'protect' our women).


i agree and i woke up wondering how all/any women (the ones here posting now) side-stepped the female-indoctrination in our society.

*and i had pretty "liberal" parents/was raised in southern california. i knew my 'place' and what was expected of me as *female*. also, i think people may *know* now the difference but it's one thing to learn some theory (as an adult), quite another thing to have experienced a pretty average childhood where you watched some tv, attended school (not home-schooled), went to a few friends' houses, had some religion or not--the media (even if you never watched TV) exposes you to society's expectations.

[Soon]

Good point. I suppose I am the kind of girl that hold us to a higher standard? I am just completely floored when somebody who has had to navigate the world as a Queer uses slurs against other Queers (or anyone for that matter). I know that is not a realistic world view, but I can't help it. It stings a bit more when it comes from another Queer.

I know what you are talking about here, SuperFemme.

I was trying to explain to a friend who is a lesbian about my new boyfriend (a few years back) and what trans meant.

She exclaimed, "What? You mean they are a SHIM?!"

It was kinda devastating...and, even after I explained to her how that word is a slur, she never really apologized or tried to get it.

We don't talk anymore.

[Toughy]

I would agree that the sacred mother as practiced by the God of Abraham monotheists is very harmful to girls and women. You must remember the sacred mother is a bastardization of the Goddess. The patriarchy's religion, in order to destroy the matriarchy's religion, stole my Sacred Mother and turned Her into a tool of the patriarchy.......mary, mother of jesus....

Human beings of any culture have every right and should vehemently stop the practice of mutilating girl's genitalia. Actually we have an OBLIGATION to stop this.

We also have an OBLIGATION to stop the sexual exploitation of children.....especially girls. The media in Western culture bears the greatest responsibility and obligation to do this.
----------------------

as to breeder........

I have always used it to denote those with children....that includes straight folk and queer folk. Sometimes it certainly has a 'dig' kind of quality to it. Sometimes it's just shorthand for those whose lives do revolve around children.

There is a huge difference between those of us whose lives do not revolve around children and those of us whose lives revolve around children.

-------------------

I do hear what is being said about slinging that word in a hateful way towards someone else. It is entirely inappropriate.

I don't think it's a good thing to sling any word at any human being with hate/meanness/derision behind that word.

I do have say as one who believes in 'question authority', this idea that I need to go read a thread about unacceptable words, so I know how to 'properly speak my mind' smacks of all kinds of censorship.

The numbers of words in any language that can be said with harm are unimaginable. We must be careful how we censor language. Censoring language can be a very slippery slope when it comes to offensive.

Hell my shrink thought is was offensive for me to call myself crazy...........laughin........she asked me not to do that because it offended her............laughin....you can just imagine how that conversation ended.

[apretty]

well some people are going to get it and some people aren't.

[SuperFemme]

Toughy, nobody told anybody to go read a thread about unacceptable words, so you know how to 'properly speak your mind'.

What I did do was start a thread about hurtful language.

In the same vein of do unto others as you would do unto yourself....I am saying that the term breeders hurts me. I am not telling you not to use that word. I am not censoring it. I am telling you why it hurts me.

The choice to use it is yours.

My choice to address you as "She" is not censorship. It is mutual respect. Because that is how I roll, and that is how what you asked.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=Toughy;128860]I would agree that the sacred mother as practiced by the God of Abraham monotheists is very harmful to girls and women. You must remember the sacred mother is a bastardization of the Goddess. The patriarchy's religion, in order to destroy the matriarchy's religion, stole my Sacred Mother and turned Her into a tool of the patriarchy.......mary, mother of jesus....


Mary Mother Of Jesus is a very real and beautiful *Goddess* who has appeared to many many witnesses throughout time. She has performed many documented mind-blowing miracles, and is also known as The Holy Mother, The Queen of Peace, Queen Of Heaven, etc.

[Mister Bent]

as to breeder........

I have always used it to denote those with children....that includes straight folk and queer folk. Sometimes it certainly has a 'dig' kind of quality to it. Sometimes it's just shorthand for those whose lives do revolve around children.

There is a huge difference between those of us whose lives do not revolve around children and those of us whose lives revolve around children.


Just to be clear, "breeding" and one's life revolving around children are hardly synonymous. In fact, I think you just utilized a more repugnant use for the term.

In context, you equate the ability to get pregnant with actual parenting, which
1.) invalidates the parenting of non-birth children.
2.) makes the assumption that getting pregnant means choosing also to actively parent.

Neither is logical and I want to think that none of this is what you actually meant. Such is the way of language.



Mary Mother Of Jesus is a very real and beautiful *Goddess* who has appeared to thousands of witnesses throughout time as The Holy Mother, and The Queen of Peace.


Wow. Really?

[Diva]

Why IS it that people continue to use this word? I am sad that we would devalue WOMEN in a Queer Community. :rainbowAfro:



This is just me ~ but coming from many years as an educator, I believe people call other people names in an attempt to make the recipients feel "less than", because the name~caller feels less than.....and in order to make themselves feel elevated somehow, or they're ignorant and/or just flat-out scared, they use the slurs....and this is true for any group of people, I feel.

There's a lot of insecurity out there.

And maybe ~ in regards to this particular thread ~ just MAYbe there is some deep-down desire to have a child. Just a SWAG there....

Just my 2 cents....

[Mister Bent]

Mr. Bent? Will you clarify your "Wow, really?" comment please? Because it looks to me like it was unecessarily derisive. It appeared that Popcorn was expressing a personal opinion in response to Toughy's post with regards to how they feel/think about St. Mary.

June (Asking a question as a moderator)

I think my comment, which was expressing surprise (we can do that here, yes?), speaks for itself.

Should I clarify further based upon the original post, or the now edited version which has changed "thousands" (to which I was expressing said surprise) to "many, many" (considerable less quantifiable)?

Or should I ask, more precisely, for clarity on the relevance of someone expressing their Judeo-Christian beliefs in a thread discussing the hurtfulness of the term "breeders?"

[blush]

Human beings of any culture have every right and should vehemently stop the practice of mutilating girl's genitalia. Actually we have an OBLIGATION to stop this.



I'm using your post, Toughy, because it was the latest one about this subject. It's interesting to me that we stand united (myself included) about genital mutilation in girls, but we don't seem to be as horrified by foreskin removal in boy infants?

[Mister Bent]

Yeah, I think it might have been a good first step to ask what the context was, if you were sincerely interested.

Sure, I can do that in the future, especially when the post itself seems out of context to the thread.

[Nat]

I'm using your post, Toughy, because it was the latest one about this subject. It's interesting to me that we stand united (myself included) about genital mutilation in girls, but we don't seem to be as horrified by foreskin removal in boy infants?

I vote genital mutilation thread because I would LOVE to see a discussion on this.

[blush]

I have always wondered why that was as well, Blush. I did not have it done to my son. It was scheduled, but when I was alone with him for the first time, examining all his amazing awesomeness, I canceled it, I felt like he was made that way for a reason. I think there are a lot of religious and cultural things going on, that probably aren't appropriate for *this* thread (I'm not saying don't, I am saying, I think it's a BIG topic in my opinion). I know my doctor tried to tell me it was for hygiene purposes and my Grandma (bless her heart) was horrified and said it would encourage him to "play with himself" because, I guess, circumcised boys don't masturbate?

They don't. I've asked.:blink:

I agree. This isn't the place for this convo.

I wonder if I invoke Linus, if he will do his magic and create a new thread?

Goof tells me we have to watch "Monk" now. :glasses:

[Soon]

I'm using your post, Toughy, because it was the latest one about this subject. It's interesting to me that we stand united (myself included) about genital mutilation in girls, but we don't seem to be as horrified by foreskin removal in boy infants?

Female Genital Mutilation and Male Circumsion is not analogous--both in intent, cultural justifications, the physical procedure or the consequences. I am not proposing that male circumcision is without its issues or is immune from criticism. I just don't believe that the two procedures can be fairly compared.

Link:
FGM (http://womensrights.suite101.com/article.cfm/male_and_female_circumcision_basics) involves the cutting off of entire portions of the female anatomy. For boys, the removal of the foreskin is more about removing an “extra” piece of skin than removing a center of pleasure. Removing the clitoris, which occurs in many FGM rituals, is done to help ensure that girls do not derive any pleasure from their sexuality, thus encouraging them to remain pure. The male equivalent of FGM would be the removal of the tip of the penis up to and including the removal of the penis and scrotum.

ETA: I am not cool with the description of the *extra piece of skin" portion of the description; however, a clitoridectomy (and other parts that can be cut during FGM--the labia--as well as sewn up--vagina) just does not equate to the act of removing the foreskin of males.

[SuperFemme]

I have always wondered why that was as well, Blush. I did not have it done to my son. It was scheduled, but when I was alone with him for the first time, examining all his amazing awesomeness, I canceled it, I felt like he was made that way for a reason. I think there are a lot of religious and cultural things going on, that probably aren't appropriate for *this* thread (I'm not saying don't, I am saying, I think it's a BIG topic in my opinion). I know my doctor tried to tell me it was for hygiene purposes and my Grandma (bless her heart) was horrified and said it would encourage him to "play with himself" because, I guess, circumcised boys don't masturbate?

i could attest to the same being true for un-circumcised females. i have the carpal tunnel syndrome to prove it.

[blush]

Female Genital Mutilation and Male Circumsion is not analogous--both in intent, cultural justifications, the physical procedure or the consequences. I am not proposing that male circumcision is without its issues or is immune from criticism. I just don't believe that the two procedures can be fairly compared.

Link:
FGM (http://womensrights.suite101.com/article.cfm/male_and_female_circumcision_basics) involves the cutting off of entire portions of the female anatomy. For boys, the removal of the foreskin is more about removing an “extra” piece of skin than removing a center of pleasure. Removing the clitoris, which occurs in many FGM rituals, is done to help ensure that girls do not derive any pleasure from their sexuality, thus encouraging them to remain pure. The male equivalent of FGM would be the removal of the tip of the penis up to and including the removal of the penis and scrotum.

ETA: I am not cool with the description of the *extra piece of skin" portion of the description; however, a clitoridectomy (and other parts that can be cut during FGM--the labia--as well as sewn up--vagina) just does not equate to the act of removing the foreskin of males.

My comment wasn't to compare the two as a hierarchy. Obviously, the female version is worse. Both are forms of mutilations, though. If we get another thread going, I hope you'll come in and continue this discussion.

[Nat]

Genital Mutilation Thread here! (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1588) :)

[Toughy]

I'm using your post, Toughy, because it was the latest one about this subject. It's interesting to me that we stand united (myself included) about genital mutilation in girls, but we don't seem to be as horrified by foreskin removal in boy infants?

I have not read any post past this one.

I focus on girls and women for a reason. Yes, I am against snipping off part of a boy/man penis.......for any reason. I don't think that practice of Judaism (and taken up others), rises to the horrific consequences of mutilating a girl's clitoris and entrance to the vagina.

It is a red herring to bring up snipping off the foreskin and leaving the penis a functional pleasurable sexual organ. It does not relate in any way, shape or form, nor has any connection with rendering a girl/women unable to experience sexual pleasure.

edited to add: and that mutilation continues her role as the vessel for the next generation, while ending her ability to have any pleasure from the act of procreation.

[Toughy]

Toughy, nobody told anybody to go read a thread about unacceptable words, so you know how to 'properly speak your mind'.

What I did do was start a thread about hurtful language.

In the same vein of do unto others as you would do unto yourself....I am saying that the term breeders hurts me. I am not telling you not to use that word. I am not censoring it. I am telling you why it hurts me.

The choice to use it is yours.

My choice to address you as "She" is not censorship. It is mutual respect. Because that is how I roll, and that is how what you asked.

I love you darlin..............that does not mean we cannot disagree. We have a bond that will not be broken.

I will always always question authority. I worry that when we censor words, we censor thought. I am so fucking wrong because I call part of my family breeders.............really???????............Adel e.......ya can't tell me that. They are breeders in the sense they produce the next generation. My family will produce some queers.........we have for generations past. We breed queers. It's a damn good thing. I hope we continue to breed queers. My family breed me.

Do you see my point? I will do my best to not use that word around you. I hear it is hurtful to you and others. I will not stop using that term in reference to mi familia. I want mi familia to breed more who question authority, who do the right thing in spite of the consequences. I want mi familia to breed folks who see the equality in all of us.

Maybe it's because I am from farm and ranch folks and folks who appreciate genetics...........breeding is not a negative term..........it is a term to connotate the products of conception brought to life. It's a term used to promote the best of the species.

[Toughy]

this is really another thought in relation to the above post.

Homo sapiens are primates. We are animals. We breed. It is the idea that homo sapiens are somehow above other primates and non-primates that is the epitome of arrogance.

Us white folk have viewed other homo sapiens as less than human. We have used the term 'stud' to mean a male (not white or poor) who looks like a breeder of good strong healthy stock. Yet parts of the butch/femme/queer community embrace 'stud' as an identity.

Are we to remove 'stud' from our white vocabulary? If we do remove 'stud' because of offense to white folk?.........what does that say to black culture who view stud in some kind of equivocalness to butch.

I am lost in this conversation. I don't know who to offend and who not to offend.

[Martina]

The idea behind the term "breeder" is to denigrate women for producing, or overproducing, offspring.

[blush]

I have not read any post past this one.

I focus on girls and women for a reason. Yes, I am against snipping off part of a boy/man penis.......for any reason. I don't think that practice of Judaism (and taken up others), rises to the horrific consequences of mutilating a girl's clitoris and entrance to the vagina.

It is a red herring to bring up snipping off the foreskin and leaving the penis a functional pleasurable sexual organ. It does not relate in any way, shape or form, nor has any connection with rendering a girl/women unable to experience sexual pleasure.

edited to add: and that mutilation continues her role as the vessel for the next generation, while ending her ability to have any pleasure from the act of procreation.

Fair enough. I hear you. I didn't intend it as a red herring to diminish the horror of what happens to women(girls). Genital mutilation is genital mutilation, whether it happens to boy or girl infants.

Sincerely, I do hope you'll contribute to the thread Nat started.

[Dylan]

The idea behind the term "breeder" is to denigrate women for producing, or overproducing, offspring.

I feel that it is also to *remind* women are their role in the patriarchy.

Like, a this is the reason you're here type o' thing.

I mean, again, I think it can be used either way (sinner/saint thing)



Dylan

[Heart]

As I've said many times, context is everything.

As for FGM - there is no comparison between what is done to boys and what is done to girls, not physically, socially, psychologically, functionally, or culturally.

See the rest of my comments in the GM thread.

[Toughy]

me in this color

Just to be clear, "breeding" and one's life revolving around children are hardly synonymous.

I simply stated how I used the term. For me it is about those whose life revolves around children.

you use it however you want.


In fact, I think you just utilized a more repugnant use for the term.

You are entitled to your opinion

In context, you equate the ability to get pregnant with actual parenting, which
1.) invalidates the parenting of non-birth children.
2.) makes the assumption that getting pregnant means choosing also to actively parent.

I did not say any of this. You might trying reading what I said again.

Neither is logical and I want to think that none of this is what you actually meant. Such is the way of language.


You're the one who made up that interpretation. You own it, not me.

[SuperFemme]

I love you darlin..............that does not mean we cannot disagree. We have a bond that will not be broken.

I will always always question authority. I worry that when we censor words, we censor thought. I am so fucking wrong because I call part of my family breeders.............really???????............Adel e.......ya can't tell me that. They are breeders in the sense they produce the next generation. My family will produce some queers.........we have for generations past. We breed queers. It's a damn good thing. I hope we continue to breed queers. My family breed me.

Do you see my point? I will do my best to not use that word around you. I hear it is hurtful to you and others. I will not stop using that term in reference to mi familia. I want mi familia to breed more who question authority, who do the right thing in spite of the consequences. I want mi familia to breed folks who see the equality in all of us.

Maybe it's because I am from farm and ranch folks and folks who appreciate genetics...........breeding is not a negative term..........it is a term to connotate the products of conception brought to life. It's a term used to promote the best of the species.


We can disagree yes. I just want to point out that I am not per se saying that the term is *wrong*. I am saying that it is hurtful. To me.

I am going to have to contact mi familia in Belen and Los Lunas and see how the Queers on the Ranches there feel about the word. Perhaps you have a point in regards to farm and ranch folk. I will go on a quest to find out.

I am not so small minded as to think that my little feelings make something wrong or right. I just know that the word hurts me as a Femme and as a Mother. If I sit around like a good little girl and ignore that? Then what purpose does that serve?

What I really really appreciate is that you can feel that the word is hunky dory and still be sensitive enough to try not to use it around me. Thank you. :rrose:

[Mr. Moon]

It just ocurred to me after Toughy's post, that I really dislike the term "queer".

In my world it was used so much to hurt gay people that I twinge every time I hear it.

Then came the 90's and everybody wanted to "take it back" "own it".
I always had a hard time with that concept. Seems kind of silly to me, but it works for some I suppose, therefore it is not silly to them.

I think maybe the term in question has the same feeling to some people. So therefore I get it. I don't feel that way, but they do and that's what counts.

And I know I made several people blink alot, admitting I do not like the term queer.

Still makes me shudder. But I realize it's not about me, it's not used to hurt me (for the most part unless you travel in certain spots here in Maryland). So, I roll with people using that term.

I hope this made sense. I'm rattling...
-Mr. Moon

[SuperFemme]

It just ocurred to me after Toughy's post, that I really dislike the term "queer".

In my world it was used so much to hurt gay people that I twinge every time I hear it.

Then came the 90's and everybody wanted to "take it back" "own it".
I always had a hard time with that concept. Seems kind of silly to me, but it works for some I suppose, therefore it is not silly to them.

I think maybe the term in question has the same feeling to some people. So therefore I get it. I don't feel that way, but they do and that's what counts.

And I know I made several people blink alot, admitting I do not like the term queer.

Still makes me shudder. But I realize it's not about me, it's not used to hurt me (for the most part unless you travel in certain spots here in Maryland). So, I roll with people using that term.

I hope this made sense. I'm rattling...
-Mr. Moon

Moonie, that must be even tougher than *breeder*. Because that term is used on such a large scale nowadays. I will make sure not to call you that and thanks for letting me know.

I wonder about words that carry that kind of power that have been reclaimed now. What if a person doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does?

Language. Argh.:pirate-steer:

[MsMerrick]

It just ocurred to me after Toughy's post, that I really dislike the term "queer".

In my world it was used so much to hurt gay people that I twinge every time I hear it.

Then came the 90's and everybody wanted to "take it back" "own it".
I always had a hard time with that concept. Seems kind of silly to me, but it works for some I suppose, therefore it is not silly to them.

I think maybe the term in question has the same feeling to some people. So therefore I get it. I don't feel that way, but they do and that's what counts.

And I know I made several people blink alot, admitting I do not like the term queer.

Still makes me shudder. But I realize it's not about me, it's not used to hurt me (for the most part unless you travel in certain spots here in Maryland). So, I roll with people using that term.

I hope this made sense. I'm rattling...
-Mr. Moon

It did.. :)
And it was kind of the same thing I was thinking, and figured if i posted at all, that I would say..
I mean I like the word Queer, but I get, that many don't !
I do think context is important with any word, and yes I really do mean

ANY word...

Me, I don't like it when people use cunt as a swear word or to denote a stupid person
Need I explain why ?
But if I am referring to my cunt.. that's a whole nother story :)
Also, a lot is cultural..Not just contextual .. or let us say, they cultural differences, lend to different contextual meanings..

Oh and btw, did anyone come up with any other phrases and/or words , that are used by GLBTQ etc people , to hurt each other? I do believe that was the title of the thread, and maybe even the intent :)

[DapperButch]

Mr. Moon's comment made me think of how when I used to refer to myself as a dyke at work around the heterosexuals that I have a friendly relationship with, would become horrifed FOR me. "Don't say that...you are not a dyke!". This was their way of saying, oh gosh, has Dapper internalized that slur? :-( We don't want her (most I haven't had the gender conversation with), to do that!

I would have to educate them on how for me dyke is a proud term.

For some reason, they don't react to queer...I think at this point they just let me say whatever and don't question it! LOL

[SuperFemme]

It did.. :)
And it was kind of the same thing I was thinking, and figured if i posted at all, that I would say..
I mean I like the word Queer, but I get, that many don't !
I do think context is important with any word, and yes I really do mean

ANY word...

Me, I don't like it when people use cunt as a swear word or to denote a stupid person
Need I explain why ?
But if I am referring to my cunt.. that's a whole nother story :)
Also, a lot is cultural..Not just contextual .. or let us say, they cultural differences, lend to different contextual meanings..

Oh and btw, did anyone come up with any other phrases and/or words , that are used by GLBTQ etc people , to hurt each other? I do believe that was the title of the thread, and maybe even the intent :)

There are the attacks on gender which I and somebody else have mentioned: Shim, HeShe

There is the naming of the Slut: This is particularly hurtful. I think it happens in groups of women when we don't understand each other or are feeling insecure. It is sticky because the word slut when used by ones self can be empowering. When used to tear a woman down it can be really hurtful.

Anybody else?

[betenoire]

I wonder about words that carry that kind of power that have been reclaimed now. What if a person doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does?


If an individual doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does - really their only "responsibility" it to not use it. If someone doesn't like Queer, nobody is forcing them to say it. You're welcome to articulate why you don't like the word - but don't expect everybody to apologise and never use it again. DO expect everybody to make a mental note of that and not refer to YOU as Queer, however.

And then there's Fat.

I love the word Fat. I think Fat is just about the greatest fucking word in my vocabulary. I'm all about overusing it and desensitizing people to it to the point where when I say it it's clear to the listener that I'm using the same matter-of-fact voice that I would use if I were to mention my freckles.

I think there's a lot of power in taking back Fat.

But, you know, not everybody is on board. And they really don't have to be. I don't get to decide what words make other people uncomfortable.

Sometimes if I reference my Fat it squicks people out. From the co-worker who (so well intentioned) say "Brandy...you are not fat, honey." to lovers who say "I don't think you're fat, I think you're beautiful." (like I fucking can't be both? wtf! I wanna be both!) When that happens the onus is on me to (briefly) explain that I don't think Fat is a bad word, and why, and then move on with my life.

[SuperFemme]

If an individual doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does - really their only "responsibility" it to not use it. If someone doesn't like Queer, nobody is forcing them to say it. You're welcome to articulate why you don't like the word - but don't expect everybody to apologise and never use it again. DO expect everybody to make a mental note of that and not refer to YOU as Queer, however.

And then there's Fat.

I love the word Fat. I think Fat is just about the greatest fucking word in my vocabulary. I'm all about overusing it and desensitizing people to it to the point where when I say it it's clear to the listener that I'm using the same matter-of-fact voice that I would use if I were to mention my freckles.

I think there's a lot of power in taking back Fat.

But, you know, not everybody is on board. And they really don't have to be. I don't get to decide what words make other people uncomfortable.

Sometimes if I reference my Fat it squicks people out. From the co-worker who (so well intentioned) say "Brandy...you are not fat, honey." to lovers who say "I don't think you're fat, I think you're beautiful." (like I fucking can't be both? wtf! I wanna be both!) When that happens the onus is on me to (briefly) explain that I don't think Fat is a bad word, and why, and then move on with my life.

And on four hours of sleep Bete succinctly sums it up. Thank you!

There are words that are going to be one persons trigger and anothers salvation. I suppose the key is opening our mouths and letting each other know what those words are?

[MsMerrick]

There are the attacks on gender which I and somebody else have mentioned: Shim, HeShe

There is the naming of the Slut: This is particularly hurtful. I think it happens in groups of women when we don't understand each other or are feeling insecure. It is sticky because the word slut when used by ones self can be empowering. When used to tear a woman down it can be really hurtful.

Anybody else?

Sorry, all those words can be endearing in context ..Seriously ...

[SuperFemme]

Sorry, all those words can be endearing in context ..Seriously ...

I understand. Until they are not, in context....

[Martina]

i don't think i have ever in my adult life used the word "slut" with anything but a tone of approval.

One thing i have heard in our community which reflects the sexism of the culture is disgust expressed for having casual sex or having had sex with numerous partners.

i know this feeling is not uncommon, but i truly wish it were less freely expressed.

[Soon]

Sorry, all those words can be endearing in context ..Seriously ...

I never considered that "Shim" and "HeShe" could be ever be "endearing" even in context.

I am curious as to how you have heard these words be used in endearing ways.

[Darth Denkay]

Getting rid of flippant language: Check yourself here

This was the thread I read immediately before I read this one.

The word in question is offensive to folks on this site. That should be enough. Sometimes context doesn't matter. Well, okay, in at least one case it does. See, I have a friend who is a breeder. She breeds Siberian Huskies.

There are countless ways to refer to individuals who have children that are not offensive. My mother had two children, but she is not a breeder. See, that would make me a calf now wouldn't it.

A dialogue about patriarchy expecting women to bear children, identifying that as their most important role, is certainly a valid discussion. Using words in that discussion that are offensive are not necessary as well as disrespectful. Surely we have sufficient vocabulary to get our point across without being offensive.

[SuperFemme]

i don't think i have ever in my adult life used the word "slut" with anything but a tone of approval.

One thing i have heard in our community which reflects the sexism of the culture is disgust expressed for having casual sex or having had sex with numerous partners.

i know this feeling is not uncommon, but i truly wish it were less freely expressed.

By the "naming of the slut" i am talking about a way we femmes ostracize one another and other one another. I don't know how to articulate it.

[SuperFemme]

I never considered that "Shim" and "HeShe" could be ever be "endearing" even in context.

I am curious as to how you have heard these words be used in endearing ways.


Me too.

MOST transgender people I know don't find it endearing to be called two genders. Or even the gender they were incorrectly born into.

If you want to be endearing to my Beloved? He or Hy will do. "HeShe" is one step short of just saying freak, and I find it very disrespectful.

[MsMerrick]

I never considered that "Shim" and "HeShe" could be ever be "endearing" even in context.

I am curious as to how you have heard these words be used in endearing ways.


I think any word, can be used.. in different ways. They are words.. The context is everything..
If the question is , do I use them ? That's a different question.
There are plenty of words, that one person finds ok, and another is bothered by. Some find a turn on even..
There's tons of words I don't personally want to ever hear around me.. ! But that doesn't mean I don't understand that for some, they are either not offensive, or a term of endearment even.
Its not the words themselves.. Its when and how
A lovely example several years ago, was when someone called a particular female identified Butch, Miss..
Context, is everything, Nothing wrong with the word
and technically, correct.
Context ? insultingly meant .... clearly so..
Even more years ago, when I was a moderator for the GLCF Forum, way back in the stone ages of the Internet.. ! There was a rumor, that certain words were forbidden. Not so... There was a list of words to watch for, to check for context ..Certainly those are words more likely to be used as insults.. But .. not always, and , good grief....seriously, do you all, those who ahh..jumped on this..really think you know everything in everyone's lives and cultures , and exactly what one person might murmur to another , what might bring an intimate blush to one person ?
I don't, and that is my point... !

[MsMerrick]

By the "naming of the slut" i am talking about a way we femmes ostracize one another and other one another. I don't know how to articulate it.

I think that is a different thing, form the word slut.. I agree that it is very disturbing and I would say,misogynistic .. Serious echos of the idea that women are owned by men, who dictate when and where it is appropriate to have sex ! But I don't think it has anything to do with the specific word slut.,.. !

[SuperFemme]

I think any word, can be used.. in different ways. They are words.. The context is everything..
If the question is , do I use them ? That's a different question.
There are plenty of words, that one person finds ok, and another is bothered by. Some find a turn on even..
There's tons of words I don't personally want to ever hear around me.. ! But that doesn't mean I don't understand that for some, they are either not offensive, or a term of endearment even.
Its not the words themselves.. Its when and how
A lovely example several years ago, was when someone called a particular female identified Butch, Miss..
Context, is everything, Nothing wrong with the word
and technically, correct.
Context ? insultingly meant .... clearly so..
Even more years ago, when I was a moderator for the GLCF Forum, way back in the stone ages of the Internet.. ! There was a rumor, that certain words were forbidden. Not so... There was a list of words to watch for, to check for context ..Certainly those are words more likely to be used as insults.. But .. not always, and , good grief....seriously, do you all, those who ahh..jumped on this..really think you know everything in everyone's lives and cultures , and exactly what one person might murmur to another , what might bring an intimate blush to one person ?
I don't, and that is my point... !

I agree with this post.

Not looking to make any words forbidden, but when you say to me that you have *only* seen the words shim and shehe used in an endearing way I am going to call bullshit on that.

I am willing to concede that you may have seen them used in an endearing way, but only? Really? You can honestly say those words are not hurtful?

[MsMerrick]

I agree with this post.

Not looking to make any words forbidden, but when you say to me that you have *only* seen the words shim and shehe used in an endearing way I am going to call bullshit on that.

I am willing to concede that you may have seen them used in an endearing way, but only? Really? You can honestly say those words are not hurtful?
Umm.. maybe you might read back, I never said any such thing... !

[Soon]

I think any word, can be used.. in different ways. They are words.. The context is everything..
If the question is , do I use them ? That's a different question.
There are plenty of words, that one person finds ok, and another is bothered by. Some find a turn on even..
There's tons of words I don't personally want to ever hear around me.. ! But that doesn't mean I don't understand that for some, they are either not offensive, or a term of endearment even.
Its not the words themselves.. Its when and how
A lovely example several years ago, was when someone called a particular female identified Butch, Miss..
Context, is everything, Nothing wrong with the word
and technically, correct.
Context ? insultingly meant .... clearly so..
Even more years ago, when I was a moderator for the GLCF Forum, way back in the stone ages of the Internet.. ! There was a rumor, that certain words were forbidden. Not so... There was a list of words to watch for, to check for context ..Certainly those are words more likely to be used as insults.. But .. not always, and , good grief....seriously, do you all, those who ahh..jumped on this..really think you know everything in everyone's lives and cultures , and exactly what one person might murmur to another , what might bring an intimate blush to one person ?
I don't, and that is my point... !

Nothing wrong with the word, Miss, I agree--context works in this case. (actually, I prefer that the terms miss and mrs. were abolished, but that's a different topic).

However, some words were created JUST to degrade and to be used in an insulting manner.

The words "Shim" and "HeShe"--especially in this day and age-- are pretty much used to invalidate, disparage or mock someone's gender identity.



I am not buying that context works with these two degrading terms or that they could ever be used in endearing ways.

[SuperFemme]

There are the attacks on gender which I and somebody else have mentioned: Shim, HeShe

There is the naming of the Slut: This is particularly hurtful. I think it happens in groups of women when we don't understand each other or are feeling insecure. It is sticky because the word slut when used by ones self can be empowering. When used to tear a woman down it can be really hurtful.

Anybody else?

Sorry, all those words can be endearing in context ..Seriously ...

Umm.. maybe you might read back, I never said any such thing... !

I need a bloody mary and maybe some more sleep then, because respectfully MsMerrick it really looked like you were saying those words are endearing words. If not then my mistake and let's carry on...

[Mr. Moon]

and the list goes on.....

and therefore, I believe, sometimes we over think and over do all this ummm "stuff" about who said what and what word is best.

I said to my Mom, just the other day.....when we were talking about something like the electric company or some other such frustrating thing (probably that effin oil disaster).... "ya know that fucking pisses me off" and she replied "Yes I'm fucking tired of it"....then she said "oh listen to my language..."....

I, of course, laughed. I said "Mom, it's just a word. A word that "someone" decided they didn't like and therefore labeled it "wrong". (I could list them all...here but someone would be offended I'm sure).

Language. I think words are words. And I have already admitted to some making me shudder. But I also know at that moment that it's NOT ABOUT ME.

Now if you are calling someone names....that's about you and them. And there are many things people do and say in that instance. But the rest of it...

it's words ...language.

-Mr. Moon

[Spirit Dancer]

I've got just a moment before a nursing supervisor comes in,
The kiddo and I were in the hallway awaiting entry into the room,
older nurse says to aide, take this into room ... aide said huh?
the room with the heshe you know?...
Me:fastdraq:are you speaking of.... nurse: yes and that is what she is
omg, I went off asking for her supervisor and promptly requesting a new nurse
informed her she was not to address hym nor enter hys room. She huffed off; I followed kiddo in tow. We get to the desk and before I can say another word,
kiddo spews" what is wrong with you, don't you know that some boys were born in the wrong body, shame on you." From the mouth of a nine year old who knows those words are slurs and hurt. Me to her, babygirl I love you.

[SuperFemme]

and the list goes on.....

and therefore, I believe, sometimes we over think and over do all this ummm "stuff" about who said what and what word is best.

I said to my Mom, just the other day.....when we were talking about something like the electric company or some other such frustrating thing (probably that effin oil disaster).... "ya know that fucking pisses me off" and she replied "Yes I'm fucking tired of it"....then she said "oh listen to my language..."....

I, of course, laughed. I said "Mom, it's just a word. A word that "someone" decided they didn't like and therefore labeled it "wrong". (I could list them all...here but someone would be offended I'm sure).

Language. I think words are words. And I have already admitted to some making me shudder. But I also know at that moment that it's NOT ABOUT ME.

Now if you are calling someone names....that's about you and them. And there are many things people do and say in that instance. But the rest of it...

it's words ...language.

-Mr. Moon


i don't think language is *just* language.

i admit to being a certified dweeb geek child who was teased every day of my childhood. i was told to just ignore it. sticks and stones and all...

words are powerful. words can hurt and words can make you ten feet tall. the tongue IS mightier than the sword.

of course it's not always about me. it's about dylan. :candle:

[Femme]

I have a friend, who is femme, and chose to be artificially inseminated. She wanted a child. Is she a breeder? No. She is a Mother and in my book, that's the most supreme acknowledgment/compliment I can give her.

People who have nasty things to say have nasty hearts and even nastier minds.

[waxnrope]

I think any word, can be used.. in different ways. They are words.. The context is everything..
If the question is , do I use them ? That's a different question.
There are plenty of words, that one person finds ok, and another is bothered by. Some find a turn on even..
There's tons of words I don't personally want to ever hear around me.. ! But that doesn't mean I don't understand that for some, they are either not offensive, or a term of endearment even.
Its not the words themselves.. Its when and how
A lovely example several years ago, was when someone called a particular female identified Butch, Miss..
Context, is everything, Nothing wrong with the word
and technically, correct.
Context ? insultingly meant .... clearly so..
Even more years ago, when I was a moderator for the GLCF Forum, way back in the stone ages of the Internet.. ! There was a rumor, that certain words were forbidden. Not so... There was a list of words to watch for, to check for context ..Certainly those are words more likely to be used as insults.. But .. not always, and , good grief....seriously, do you all, those who ahh..jumped on this..really think you know everything in everyone's lives and cultures , and exactly what one person might murmur to another , what might bring an intimate blush to one person ?
I don't, and that is my point... !

Yes, exactly so, IMO. However, as I said a few pages back (and Darth brings up again here), in this place, on this site, on this thread, the word offends.
However, please be aware that there are sometimes cultural and ethnic uses of these words that you find offensive that are not always meant to be offensive, and are considered endearments. I think of how AA often use the word "nigg..." to address one another ... there is a twist, a turn, on the old derogatory use of the term. It is akin to the negritude movement, wherein french people of African descent decided to take those derogatory comments about their origins, skin color, stereotypical characterizations, and twist or turn them into something that had positive attributes. There is power in that, you see.

It is NOT that I LIKE hearing this use of the "n word", but common usage does take the sting out of hearing it. So don't get started on me about that. Anyway, we do not always know the intention/s of one another's use of a word, nor the context in which it was uttered. Yet, there are those, no matter how good the intent (informational/instructional, critical thinking, etc.) find it offensive. It is just simply better, then, to leave it the heck alone HERE. And develop another thread to discuss this academically or critically. Punto. I'm done. LOL.

[MsMerrick]

I need a bloody mary and maybe some more sleep then, because respectfully MsMerrick it really looked like you were saying those words are endearing words. If not then my mistake and let's carry on...

I don't know what to tell you. You quoted me exactly and i read what I said, and what I said was NOT that those words are endearing
I said they can be endearing in context.. All 3 words btw, not just the gender ones....
I did not say, nor did what you quoted say, that They Were Endearments.,.. or that the words themselves, were meant as endearments or endearing in of themselves.. !
the words "in context" give the relative sense of the sentence. .
Is that any more clear?

[Hudson]

I think any word, can be used.. in different ways. They are words.. The context is everything..
If the question is , do I use them ? That's a different question.
There are plenty of words, that one person finds ok, and another is bothered by. Some find a turn on even..
There's tons of words I don't personally want to ever hear around me.. ! But that doesn't mean I don't understand that for some, they are either not offensive, or a term of endearment even.
Its not the words themselves.. Its when and how
A lovely example several years ago, was when someone called a particular female identified Butch, Miss..
Context, is everything, Nothing wrong with the word
and technically, correct.
Context ? insultingly meant .... clearly so..
Even more years ago, when I was a moderator for the GLCF Forum, way back in the stone ages of the Internet.. ! There was a rumor, that certain words were forbidden. Not so... There was a list of words to watch for, to check for context ..Certainly those are words more likely to be used as insults.. But .. not always, and , good grief....seriously, do you all, those who ahh..jumped on this..really think you know everything in everyone's lives and cultures , and exactly what one person might murmur to another , what might bring an intimate blush to one person ?
I don't, and that is my point... !


Like when you addressed me as "little girl" on "that other site"? Luckily, my balls are bigger than even your lack of self-awareness! Sorry, but seeing you 'educate' others on this subject causes my breakfast to sneak back up on me.

[SuperFemme]

I don't know what to tell you. You quoted me exactly and i read what I said, and what I said was NOT that those words are endearing
I said they can be endearing in context.. All 3 words btw, not just the gender ones....
I did not say, nor did what you quoted say, that They Were Endearments.,.. or that the words themselves, were meant as endearments or endearing in of themselves.. !
the words "in context" give the relative sense of the sentence. .
Is that any more clear?

Yes, that is more clear. Thanks.

[betenoire]

How about we leave the old site at the old site and old grudges where they lay.

Hudson, if Merrick really hurt you all that badly maybe the two of you can discuss that in private. I think it's dirty pool to use something that someone said 1 - elsewhere and 2 - HOW long ago was that (I don't know) as a means of dismissing all of their opinions on all subjects for all eternity.

[Hudson]

How about we leave the old site at the old site and old grudges where they lay.

Hudson, if Merrick really hurt you all that badly maybe the two of you can discuss that in private. I think it's dirty pool to use something that someone said 1 - elsewhere and 2 - HOW long ago was that (I don't know) as a means of dismissing all of their opinions on all subjects for all eternity.


How about you don't moderate the thread?

[SuperFemme]

I am very aware that a word like "Shim" that may be hurtful to me might not be hurtful to joe schmoe.

What to do when I hit the brick wall of a person who really doesn't care that it's hurtful? I mean there is no rule that it is anyone's responsibility to give a rats ass that a word may cause pain to others.

Am I naive in my hope that others will care?

[MsMerrick]

Yes, that is more clear. Thanks.

I am sorry for causing any distress, I did not in any way mean to be suggesting that those words were usually endearments. Simply that they could be...

[betenoire]

How about you don't moderate the thread?

Not moderating, just voicing an opinion. I'm allowed to do that, right? Have opinions about stuff?

Just out of curiosity - are all instances where someone tries to deflect an attack on a friend "moderating"? Or is it only moderating when I do it?

[UofMfan]

Like when you addressed me as "little girl" on "that other site"? Luckily, my balls are bigger than even your lack of self-awareness! Sorry, but seeing you 'educate' others on this subject causes my breakfast to sneak back up on me.

MODERATING:

Hudson, personal attacks and bringing drama from other sites is against TOS.

This is a warning. If you have any personal issues to iron out, please do so in private.

In addition, the comment you just posted only adds fuel to the fire. This does not add any thing of value to the thread.

[Hudson]

Not moderating, just voicing an opinion. I'm allowed to do that, right? Have opinions about stuff?

Just out of curiosity - are all instances where someone tries to deflect an attack on a friend "moderating"? Or is it only moderating when I do it?


I reckon only you can answer that. I thought you were 'just voicing an opinion'.

[SuperFemme]

I am sorry for causing any distress, I did not in any way mean to be suggesting that those words were usually endearments. Simply that they could be...

Thanks Ms. Merrick for clearing it up. I think it had more to do with reading it wrong than anything else. I'm glad you were willing to walk me through it. :)

[TenderKnight]

Interesting thread..

Superfemme, thanks for starting it.. Once again, the people on this site have gotten me thinking about how I go through life and the words that I use and how I use them.

I work in Hillcrest, the *gay* area of San Diego. I work in a retail store that has adult toys and DVD's as well as clothing. Mostly clothing, honestly.. In any case, we cater to mainly gay males. I have used words to describe the straight college kids that look at the dildos and giggle, or the guys that come in on thier cells saying, "Yeah, dude, i just walked into the gay shop". I refer to some of them as breeders to my other co-workers.. Is this right? No.. I never even thought it was hurtful. Reading this thread has changed my views on the term and I won't be using it, or will at least correct myself when I do use it.

We also refer to some of the more.. Flamboyant.. gay men as Queens. Keep in mind, over half the staff are gay men or at least bi.. But we use it in a derogatory way, usually for the guys that come in, ask for all the size 14 heels we have, try them on, act like.. well, Queens.. and then don't buy anything.

I'll be honest, we tend to call people a lot of things.. lmao.

Now I have to sit back and ask.. why?

My thought is that for *me*, it is out of anger and frustration. I have to get at them some way and I can't be rude to thier faces, so it gets the frustration out..

Unprofessional? Hell yes.. Very human? Also, yes.

Someone mentioned the fact that human nature is human nature, and sadly, part of that nature is making one feel better about ones' self by putting another person or a group of people down. I feel angry and belittled with straight boy comes in and finds it funny to see the gay store, like we're a friggin' zoo.. I feel frustrated and belittled when a customer takes 30 to 40 minutes of my time, me climbing ladders and getting shoes and they can't even make eye contact with me and treat me like a servant? Fuck yeah that pisses me off and I may refer to them as a fucking queen.

Words do have power. They can be weapons, or they can be tools for healing.. It's all about how we use them.

Just my .2 on the "shim" "he/she" thing.. *sighs* I am not a fan. I will admit when i was growing up and in the closet, i threw that word around with my then friends and buddies. I was trying to be a part of the straight guy world, and amazingly, there was a lot of name calling involved.. lol Now? I still hear the term, mostly from older lesbians, to be truthful.. *shrugs* I try to explain about transgender and all the personal story stuff, and sometimes it takes, sometimes it doesn't.. But i chalk that one up to ignorance or just plain ass hat behavior (ass hat, now that's a word I'm going to start throwing around more..).

That is how I've used words to hurt others.. In truth, it only hurts and belittles me to use them and to have that negitive energy so near to my heart.. Something that I'm working on, daily.

Thanks again for the thread and to everyone that posted.

-Tony

[UofMfan]

How about you don't moderate the thread?

MODERATING:

I just did. I hope everyone heeds my warning.

[MsMerrick]

I am very aware that a word like "Shim" that may be hurtful to me might not be hurtful to joe schmoe.

What to do when I hit the brick wall of a person who really doesn't care that it's hurtful? I mean there is no rule that it is anyone's responsibility to give a rats ass that a word may cause pain to others.

Am I naive in my hope that others will care?

I hope you aren't, I know I hope the same thing..!
I do limit my attempts to educate, to those that use words with.. carelessness, not .. with clear nasty intent.
I agree, its very painful, that so many don't care... I wish I had a penny, even in this economy, for every time someone has told me I am too "PC", because I try and explain that how we use..words has power..and that I am offended by someones use of a word..

[betenoire]

I've actually only heard the words "shim" or "s-he" used in one place (maybe I'm super sheltered?). It was here:

YSeTjNxbmKE

And I really do still feel that the Lunachicks meant no harm. In the context of that song it was about breaking out of gender norms. And they meant it in a good way.

[SuperFemme]

Interesting thread..

Superfemme, thanks for starting it.. Once again, the people on this site have gotten me thinking about how I go through life and the words that I use and how I use them.

I work in Hillcrest, the *gay* area of San Diego. I work in a retail store that has adult toys and DVD's as well as clothing. Mostly clothing,
honestly.. In any case, we cater to mainly gay males.

Oh Hey. I got ran over in Hillcrest on Sixth and Robinson. Somewhere at that intersection there is an outline of my body. Totally serious.

I have used words to describe the straight college kids that look at the dildos and giggle, or the guys that come in on thier cells saying, "Yeah, dude, i just walked into the gay shop". I refer to some of them as breeders to my other co-workers.. Is this right? No.. I never even thought it was hurtful. Reading this thread has changed my views on the term and I won't be using it, or will at least correct myself when I do use it.

I love your honesty. I am also fascinated that you use this term on males. It is super cool that you are going to change your thinking, that makes this thread worth it time 100.

We also refer to some of the more.. Flamboyant.. gay men as Queens. Keep in mind, over half the staff are gay men or at least bi.. But we use it in a derogatory way, usually for the guys that come in, ask for all the size 14 heels we have, try them on, act like.. well, Queens.. and then don't buy anything.

I'll be honest, we tend to call people a lot of things.. lmao.

Now I have to sit back and ask.. why?

My thought is that for *me*, it is out of anger and frustration. I have to get at them some way and I can't be rude to thier faces, so it gets the frustration out..

Unprofessional? Hell yes.. Very human? Also, yes.

Maybe this is the way you take your power back? Having to serve people that are rude to you all day while being forced to smile has to suck.

Someone mentioned the fact that human nature is human nature, and sadly, part of that nature is making one feel better about ones' self by putting another person or a group of people down. I feel angry and belittled with straight boy comes in and finds it funny to see the gay store, like we're a friggin' zoo.. I feel frustrated and belittled when a customer takes 30 to 40 minutes of my time, me climbing ladders and getting shoes and they can't even make eye contact with me and treat me like a servant? Fuck yeah that pisses me off and I may refer to them as a fucking queen.

Words do have power. They can be weapons, or they can be tools for healing.. It's all about how we use them.

Just my .2 on the "shim" "he/she" thing.. *sighs* I am not a fan. I will admit when i was growing up and in the closet, i threw that word around with my then friends and buddies. I was trying to be a part of the straight guy world, and amazingly, there was a lot of name calling involved.. lol Now? I still hear the term, mostly from older lesbians, to be truthful.. *shrugs* I try to explain about transgender and all the personal story stuff, and sometimes it takes, sometimes it doesn't.. But i chalk that one up to ignorance or just plain ass hat behavior (ass hat, now that's a word I'm going to start throwing around more..).

That is how I've used words to hurt others.. In truth, it only hurts and belittles me to use them and to have that negitive energy so near to my heart.. Something that I'm working on, daily.

Thanks again for the thread and to everyone that posted.

-Tony

Again, your post is awesome and has given me some great insight. Thank you so much for sharing and being brave enough to put out there how and why you might use hurtful language in your own community (and out of it). I really appreciate it.

[JakeTulane]

I would like to know other's thoughts on the usage of the word Faggot. I have had it used on Me, and not in a good way. Quite frankly, I have never heard it used in a good way. So, I would have to say to Me it is a word to hurt our own. IMHO.

[SuperFemme]

I hope you aren't, I know I hope the same thing..!
I do limit my attempts to educate, to those that use words with.. carelessness, not .. with clear nasty intent.
I agree, its very painful, that so many don't care... I wish I had a penny, even in this economy, for every time someone has told me I am too "PC", because I try and explain that how we use..words has power..and that I am offended by someones use of a word..

Thanks. :rrose:

Is there really such a think as being too considerate or too "PC"?
I hope not. Thanks for understanding.

[betenoire]

I would like to know other's thoughts on the usage of the word Faggot. I have had it used on Me, and not in a good way. Quite frankly, I have never heard it used in a good way. So, I would have to say to Me it is a word to hurt our own. IMHO.

I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

[JakeTulane]

Thank you bete. I agree, it is about context. Oddly, it was said to Me by another queer.. so I was a bit shocked. (hence My mentioning about it being used to hurt our own). I also agree with what you said about "instances" when it is used.


I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

[waxnrope]

Thinking, Jake, and as I recollect, I have never heard the word faggot used as an endearment ... fag, sometimes, yes.

I refer to myself (as do some of my friends) as a "faggy" butch ... it is meant as an acknowledgment that I share some stereotypical behaviors and ways of being as my gay brothers. These are good things, by the way. So, I don't mind that, nor do my gay male friends, as they, too, call me this at times. But, faggot, no. Never in my recollection have heard it in anyway except derogatorily.

[SuperFemme]

I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

I often refer to myself as a Femme Fag Fatale because of what I like to do to my Beloved. It is me being subversive. So yeah, context. I won't use that language just anywhere.

I know that a lot of people hear the word "faggot" right before a baseball bat hits their head or a fist lands upside their head. I don't want to be the PTSD in anyones day so I try to be really aware. Thanks Jake Tulane for bringing it up.

[waxnrope]

I dunno, all of the letters to Dan Savage in his column used to stay with "Hey, Faggot" (I don't think they do any more) and I call my best guy friend Faggot all the time.

I think if I were a heterosexual and I was calling my friend Faggot it would be -vastly- different than how it is intended/received coming from my place of Queer-ness.

So again, back to context. Right? The person who called you a Faggot meant it in a hurtful way, I get that. But not every instance where the term Faggot is used is inherently hurtful.

thanks for this comment. it so contrasts with my experiences, so yes, context, and I might add, community/ies, may define one's use and understanding of words.

thanks again

[JakeTulane]

Thinking, Jake, and as I recollect, I have never heard the word faggot used as an endearment ... fag, sometimes, yes.

I refer to myself (as do some of my friends) as a "faggy" butch ... it is meant as an acknowledgment that I share some stereotypical behaviors and ways of being as my gay brothers. These are good things, by the way. So, I don't mind that, nor do my gay male friends, as they, too, call me this at times. But, faggot, no. Never in my recollection have heard it in anyway except derogatorily.

Thank you wax. Odd that if we drop off 3 letters.. it is "seen" differently, or felt, or heard.

[Dylan]

I don't think people outside the group to whom the slur is used get to 'decide' if the term is offensive or not or when it's considered offensive. If One has never belonged to the group in question, than how would One have any point of reference as to it's usage/context/etc?

I also think there's a big difference between the people of the group using the term and people outside the group using the word.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Thank you wax. Odd that if we drop off 3 letters.. it is "seen" differently, or felt, or heard.


Ohhh.

GOOD point.

Fag vs. Faggot

I think the latter is used in a more vicious manner.

[SuperFemme]

I don't think people outside the group to whom the slur is used get to 'decide' if the term is offensive or not or when it's considered offensive. If One has never belonged to the group in question, than how would One have any point of reference as to it's usage/context/etc?

I also think there's a big difference between the people of the group using the term and people outside the group using the word.


Dylan

So am I to never know when a racial slur is a racial slur?

As allies to <insert group here> people are never to know when to employ common sense and know something is offensive?

I'm not understanding you here.

[betenoire]

I really think that the relationships between people is a HUGE deciding factor in what is okay and what is not okay. When you reach a certain level of familiarity with someone boundaries shift.

Take for example, my friend Bob. I love Bob. We've been friends for, well, for nearly forever. Bob calls me names all the time, her favourite being "twat". I'm sure she's done it at least once in these here forums.

I am okay with Bob calling me a twat, because Bob is my friend and she loves me and I know that Bob has absolutely no malicious will when it comes to me. I call her all sorts of things, too. (My personal favourite is anal fissure.) It's all good. It's part of our shtick.

But if someone who I did not have that kind of relationship with were to call me a twat - I would probably break their nose.

[Toughy]

Fair enough. I hear you. I didn't intend it as a red herring to diminish the horror of what happens to women(girls). Genital mutilation is genital mutilation, whether it happens to boy or girl infants.

Sincerely, I do hope you'll contribute to the thread Nat started.

I read this post several times and thought about it and thought about it...........

It is NOT mutilation to cut off the foreskin of a penis. It IS mutilation to cut off the clitoris and the labia. There is a HUGE difference between these 2 acts.

[SuperFemme]

I read this post several times and thought about it and thought about it...........

It is NOT mutilation to cut off the foreskin of a penis. It IS mutilation to cut off the clitoris and the labia. There is a HUGE difference between these 2 acts.



technicality. you are both right.

genital mutilation


–noun any type of cutting or removal of all or some of the genital organs, esp. excision of the clitoris.

[JustJo]

I don't think people outside the group to whom the slur is used get to 'decide' if the term is offensive or not or when it's considered offensive. If One has never belonged to the group in question, than how would One have any point of reference as to it's usage/context/etc?

I also think there's a big difference between the people of the group using the term and people outside the group using the word.


Dylan

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me. :rrose:

[Gayla]

Thinking about this from the standpoint of reclaiming language and using various words in context.

For me, there are words that I use in reference to myself that I know other people find offensive. As someone else mentioned, the girls I work with used to get upset when I called myself a duke or queer because they've always seen those as bad words. I use them because they are the most relevant to me and most of them now use them when talking about me, "My dyke friend at work says it's ok for me to go to the parade as long as I don't cringe at the queer boys in leather."

I know a number of people who don't like most of the words I use. I've lost count of the number of people who think "butch" is an insult. As a matter of respect, I don't use those words when talking about them but I'm not going to use different words to describe me just because I'm around them. My friend J is a lesbian. Not a duke and not butch and really not queer. So I would never refer to her as any of those things bit it doesn't mean that I have to stop calling myself a dyke when I'm around her.

[Gayla]

Sorry about the typos. Posting from my phone and it thinks dyke=duke.

[Toughy]

technicality. you are both right.

genital mutilation


–noun any type of cutting or removal of all or some of the genital organs, esp. excision of the clitoris.

oh for fuck's sake............

There is no technicality...........cutting off the clit in NO WAY relates to cutting off the foreskin...................



-------------
I am again going to question authority........who within the group gets to decide what is 'appropriate'. If I removed from my vocabulary all words that offended someone........hell I could not call myself a 'big ole bull dagger/dyke'.... or queer or a fag or any number of words that are offensive to many segments of the greater LGBTQQI community............crap I have to think about it to get all the damn letters right ...........

I was around when 'Queer Nation' started..........laughin..........all those rich gay white assimilationist men and women had a big ole hissy fit......

I am left with wondering what words I can and cannot use on this website based on offense taken by some members of this website...........

[SuperFemme]

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me. :rrose:

Ok. This makes sense to me.

Thinking about this from the standpoint of reclaiming language and using various words in context.

For me, there are words that I use in reference to myself that I know other people find offensive. As someone else mentioned, the girls I work with used to get upset when I called myself a duke or queer because they've always seen those as bad words. I use them because they are the most relevant to me and most of them now use them when talking about me, "My dyke friend at work says it's ok for me to go to the parade as long as I don't cringe at the queer boys in leather."

I know a number of people who don't like most of the words I use. I've lost count of the number of people who think "butch" is an insult. As a matter of respect, I don't use those words when talking about them but I'm not going to use different words to describe me just because I'm around them. My friend J is a lesbian. Not a duke and not butch and really not queer. So I would never refer to her as any of those things bit it doesn't mean that I have to stop calling myself a dyke when I'm around her.

Right. That brings up an interesting point. Say somebody finds the word Butch offensive. Where do we draw the line? Is it enough to just not use it in reference to the person who it offends? Or must we not utter it in earshot of said person?

I am not nit picking, just teasing it apart in my mind.

Like the word breeder. I really dislike that word, but say my friend ID's as a Femme Breeder.

Ummm.

I think my head just exploded, but not really.

Most people don't self identify in ways that are meant to hurt themselves or others so at the end of the day a lot of you are right. Context is huge.

[Mr. Moon]

i don't think language is *just* language.

i admit to being a certified dweeb geek child who was teased every day of my childhood. i was told to just ignore it. sticks and stones and all...

words are powerful. words can hurt and words can make you ten feet tall. the tongue IS mightier than the sword.

of course it's not always about me. it's about dylan. :candle:

Well I didn't read past this post yet...

But, I wanted to say that I don't believe that either....However,

If words are used to intentionally hurt someone they FEEL more awful than they are.

We're all subjective. It's all our point of view, how we recieve EVERYTHING. They really are "words" we've chosen to describe something negative that can have positive meaning too. That's kinda what I meant.

I had a therapist once..(don't be mean... LOL) that said ....about me and my brother, living in the same house and how different we seemed to be...she said we each receive the same sintuation differently.

Words CAN ...seem to make you taller or smaller...but....that's your inner self telling you that. It's your experiences that fall in to play. (all this is how *I* believe by the way)...and I believe how we receive things colors everything. We just take it in.

I try hard not to make it about me when things like "words" are said.

I live in a world where Butch is a bad word.

maybe I'm thicker skinned but........... I can't change them. I can help educate them. But educate the world...naw....I'm tired on that. LOL I call it when I see it...that's all I can do.

ooh Rattling again!!

:)
-Mr. Moon

[SuperFemme]

Well I didn't read past this post yet...

But, I wanted to say that I don't believe that either....However,

If words are used to intentionally hurt someone they FEEL more awful than they are.

We're all subjective. It's all our point of view, how we recieve EVERYTHING. They really are "words" we've chosen to describe something negative that can have positive meaning too. That's kinda what I meant.

I had a therapist once..(don't be mean... LOL) that said ....about me and my brother, living in the same house and how different we seemed to be...she said we each receive the same sintuation differently.

Words CAN ...seem to make you taller or smaller...but....that's your inner self telling you that. It's your experiences that fall in to play. (all this is how *I* believe by the way)...and I believe how we receive things colors everything. We just take it in.

I try hard not to make it about me when things like "words" are said.

I live in a world where Butch is a bad word.

maybe I'm thicker skinned but........... I can't change them. I can help educate them. But educate the world...naw....I'm tired on that. LOL I call it when I see it...that's all I can do.

ooh Rattling again!!

:)
-Mr. Moon

moonie? did you just call me a hot mess? :canadian:

[Waldo]

Maybe the change in times has come around in that I don't hate straight people per se? I think *my* derogatory word for straight person is *right wing* these days. Which is probably just as side ways considering that I go to church and am offending all Christians sideways.

Holy crap. Really? straight = right wing? I know a couple of right wing straight folks, but overwhelmingly the straight folks I know are extremely liberal. In some cases more liberal than I am. Interesting.

If an individual doesn't want to reclaim a word but the majority does - really their only "responsibility" it to not use it. If someone doesn't like Queer, nobody is forcing them to say it. You're welcome to articulate why you don't like the word - but don't expect everybody to apologise and never use it again. DO expect everybody to make a mental note of that and not refer to YOU as Queer, however.

And then there's Fat.

I love the word Fat. I think Fat is just about the greatest fucking word in my vocabulary. I'm all about overusing it and desensitizing people to it to the point where when I say it it's clear to the listener that I'm using the same matter-of-fact voice that I would use if I were to mention my freckles.

I think there's a lot of power in taking back Fat.

But, you know, not everybody is on board. And they really don't have to be. I don't get to decide what words make other people uncomfortable.

Sometimes if I reference my Fat it squicks people out. From the co-worker who (so well intentioned) say "Brandy...you are not fat, honey." to lovers who say "I don't think you're fat, I think you're beautiful." (like I fucking can't be both? wtf! I wanna be both!) When that happens the onus is on me to (briefly) explain that I don't think Fat is a bad word, and why, and then move on with my life.

Early in the thread ( just read through most of it ) I was thinking about this "fat" thing.

Years ago, like a couple of decades, I used to LAUGH my ass off if the most hurtful thing a person could say to me was something about being fat. How very sad that in order to insult me they would only be able to pick out the most obvious thing about me. "Hey fat ass, watch it!" Come on, use a little imagination.

After about the age of 12 being called fat rarely ever bothered me.

I have more anxiety wrapped up in "butch" than I ever did in fat, dyke, fag, faggot, queer, snatch eater, fudge-packer, bull-dyke, bulldagger, carpet muncher, mick, bubble-butt, dumbo, cloud, homo, kraut eater, white bread, wonder bread, herm, amazon, wannabe, man, dude, beav, beaver, bitch, whore, slut, commie, fruit, chachi, man-hater, chief, honcho, big man, big fella, battle-axe, skank, shrew, chick... I could go on. But I think you get my point.

While I believe that words can hit as hard as a fist at some point it's a matter of personal responsibility to stand up and say "you know what? I'm not going to allow your ignorance to hurt me any longer" when someone is using these words in an attempt to hurt you. The words in and of themselves? I find them mostly powerless.

It is when we identify so strongly with something that a word has the ability to hurt us. Hence my issue around "butch". Telling that on more than one occasion I've eschewed the term. I have a real love/hate relationship with the word and my identity around it.

I think that this is a key point. I can choose to reclaim the word fat, because I am. But if those who aren't use it...it feels offensive. I'm also aware that it's a painful word for several people that I care a great deal about. I would never use it to them.

Intent and context are also critical. Almost any word can be used in a way that hurts or a way that heals...depending upon how it's meant and when and how it's used.

I try to avoid language that is painful or uncomfortable for others. I also know that there will be times when I unintentionally hurt others with my words. It's almost unavoidable without constant censoring of every word...and then communication becomes incredibly cumbersome.

I think sometimes we're using a word we've reclaimed, sometimes we're just spouting off without thinking, sometimes we're just being lazy about our communication, and sometimes it's that icky side of human nature that likes to jab at the weakest spot on others. The words used may be the same....but those all feel different to me. :rrose:

Interesting. Who gets to decide who is fat and when it's ok to use "fat"?

What size does a person have to be in order to use it? Size 8? 12? 16?

If someone had been a size 4 for years and suddenly finds themselves a size 10 are they to censor themselves when around people of considerably larger size?

*********
On the OP: to "breed" is to produce offspring, no? According to MW, it is anyway. Also "breeding" is: the result of upbringing or training as shown in behavior and manners; manners, esp. good manners: "You can tell when a person has breeding." Now, we could also get into the elitist stuff surrounding things like that, but I digress.

I understand the arguments about this and that there are individuals who feel this is hurtful to women in general and find it hurtful to them, as individuals. Duly noted.

In looking at the term in the context of the queer rights movement I understood it to stem from a desire to label heteros who "had it easy". Who were physically capable of "breeding" of their own accord. Who had reproductive rights and opportunities that same sex couples did not.

Perhaps I have more progressive (or perhaps less progressive?) hetero friends than most people, but I have at least two couples in my world who refer to themselves as breeders.

[JustJo]

Interesting. Who gets to decide who is fat and when it's ok to use "fat"?

What size does a person have to be in order to use it? Size 8? 12? 16?

If someone had been a size 4 for years and suddenly finds themselves a size 10 are they to censor themselves when around people of considerably larger size?


Hi Waldo :rrose:

For me, "fat" is self-identified, just like any other term or description. Some people would feel or be "fat" by their own definition in a size 4, others in a 22 or a 5x or whatever.

I'm not saying anyone needs to censor themselves...I'm saying how I perceive things. If you read my whole post you would see the last line...where I said that these things feel different to me.

There's a huge difference to me between that woman who was always a size 4and is now in a 10 saying "I'm struggling with this; I feel fat and undesirable" and the woman in a size 0 making fat comments to her friends behind my back...generally just loud enough for me to hear. To me, a size 10 is slim, but perhaps not to her. For others, a size 22 feels fabulous. That's their perception, and has nothing to do with me.

Make sense?

[Nat]

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice a breeder of revolutions.
5. A breeder reactor.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

It might also be worth checking out the variety of definitions at urbandictionary.com (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=breeder)

eg: Breeder is a slang term (either joking or derogatory) used to describe heterosexuals, primarily by homosexuals. It is drawn from the fact that while homosexual sex does not lead to reproduction, heterosexual sex can, with implicit mocking by connotation of animal husbandry.

[SuperFemme]

to breed and breeder are not the same. to me.

mirriam webster on breeder:

Main Entry: breed·er
Pronunciation: \ˈbrē-dər\
Function: noun
Date: 1531
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or planthttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/breeder#) kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism c : a nuclear reactor designed to produce more fissionable material than it uses as fuel —called also breeder reactor



Thank you for understanding that it is hurtful. In turn, duly noted that your progressive friends do not find it hurtful.

Perhaps if I divulged more personal information on how I became pregnant it would help garner more understanding on why being compared to an animal makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach.

Unfortunately, I'm not ready to do that here.

[Nat]

In looking at the term in the context of the queer rights movement I understood it to stem from a desire to label heteros who "had it easy". Who were physically capable of "breeding" of their own accord. Who had reproductive rights and opportunities that same sex couples did not.

Perhaps I have more progressive (or perhaps less progressive?) hetero friends than most people, but I have at least two couples in my world who refer to themselves as breeders.

Hi Waldo :)

In an attempt to other heteros, there is also a line being drawn about who qualifies as lesbian/gay and who does not. Within our community, for the term "breeder" to be used to refer to straight people in an ugly way, it is not only ugly to straight people, but it is rejecting and erasing of the people within our community who have had kids.

If you have hetero friends who refer to themselves as breeders, they are doing so from a place of hetero privilege. Also, self-referencing using an offensive term is not the same as othering somebody by calling them an ugly term, no?

[Waldo]

Hi Waldo :rrose:

For me, "fat" is self-identified, just like any other term or description. Some people would feel or be "fat" by their own definition in a size 4, others in a 22 or a 5x or whatever.

I'm not saying anyone needs to censor themselves...I'm saying how I perceive things. If you read my whole post you would see the last line...where I said that these things feel different to me.

There's a huge difference to me between that woman who was always a size 4and is now in a 10 saying "I'm struggling with this; I feel fat and undesirable" and the woman in a size 0 making fat comments to her friends behind my back...generally just loud enough for me to hear. To me, a size 10 is slim, but perhaps not to her. For others, a size 22 feels fabulous. That's their perception, and has nothing to do with me.

Make sense?

Indeed it does make sense. I still stand by my choice to not let an unimaginative dullard's choice of derisive comments to get me down. But I also understand that not everyone feels the same way.

Here's hoping you, or anyone else, finds a day when this is a non-issue.

breed·er (brdr)
n.
1. A person who breeds animals or plants.
2. An animal kept to produce offspring.
3. Offensive Slang A heterosexual person.
4. A source or cause: social injustice a breeder of revolutions.
5. A breeder reactor.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

It might also be worth checking out the variety of definitions at urbandictionary.com (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=breeder)

eg: Breeder is a slang term (either joking or derogatory) used to describe heterosexuals, primarily by homosexuals. It is drawn from the fact that while homosexual sex does not lead to reproduction, heterosexual sex can, with implicit mocking by connotation of animal husbandry.

I am, actually, aware of the dictionary definition of breed, bred, breeder and breeding. Funny how they are all related and yet have slightly different takes.

And I certainly hope that we, as a culture, have not reached the point where we are relying on UrbanDictionary.com to definitively understand this or any other term.

to breed and breeder are not the same. to me.

mirriam webster on breeder:

Main Entry: breed·er
Pronunciation: \ˈbrē-dər\
Function: noun
Date: 1531
: one that breeds: as a : an animal or planthttp://images.intellitxt.com/ast/adTypes/2_bing.gif (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/breeder#) kept for propagation b : one engaged in the breeding of a specified organism c : a nuclear reactor designed to produce more fissionable material than it uses as fuel —called also breeder reactor

Thank you for understanding that it is hurtful. In turn, duly noted that your progressive friends do not find it hurtful.

Perhaps if I divulged more personal information on how I became pregnant it would help garner more understanding on why being compared to an animal makes me feel like I've been punched in the stomach.

Unfortunately, I'm not ready to do that here.

SF, I don't think additional information is warranted in the least. I don't need to understand your experience to sympathize with why you, or anyone else, feel it's offensive. I accept it.

If the first definition is "one that breeds", then by logic one would check out the definition of "breed", no? They aren't the same, but the words and their definitions are related, obviously. But like many terms in our modern world they are used in a variety of ways. Not always as they were intended.

[Zimmeh]

I have always been told by my mother that I shouldn't have kids. I would love to have kids, but I run a 50/50 chance of not being able to carry, and that is why I don't have kids. I support single mothers, my best friend of 23 years is one. I watch her work two full time jobs to make sure her little boy has food, clean clothes and a place to live.

Thank you Jo Jo!

Zimmy

Well I'm gonna have to change colors here so I can go point to point...because I think you raise some interesting questions...
Let me start first by saying that, as much as I love the warm sentiments of motherhood...I was NOT raised to be a mother. I was raised by a narcissist who made it very clear to me from a very young age that motherhood ruined her life, her future and her happiness. I was raised to believe that motherhood was one step above slavery, and the last thing in the world I should ever desire.



I do hear what you're saying Dylan...I just feel like you're talking about a 20 year old dynamic. :rrose:

[SuperFemme]

I don't want to nitpick the etymology of the word breeder. To take it out of context feels like a bait and switch at a political convention.

I guess at the end of the day we all get to choose how we are going to give our power away and how we are going to take it back. (f)

[Waldo]

Hi Waldo :)

In an attempt to other heteros, there is also a line being drawn about who qualifies as lesbian/gay and who does not. Within our community, for the term "breeder" to be used to refer to straight people in an ugly way, it is not only ugly to straight people, but it is rejecting and erasing of the people within our community who have had kids.

If you have hetero friends who refer to themselves as breeders, they are doing so from a place of hetero privilege. Also, self-referencing using an offensive term is not the same as othering somebody by calling them an ugly term, no?

I think you're mixing here. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding.

If I were to call someone a breeder that does not exclude anyone. (EDIT: it addresses an individual or identified group. I cannot exclude someone without specificity. Someone can exclude themselves because they do not identify with a term. I hope that makes sense) I was referencing my understanding of the ORIGIN of the derisive usage. There was a time when relatively few queers had children (originating of their queer union) so to say it was rejecting or erasing seems odd.

Today, perhaps more so, but even then it seems to want it both ways. "Wait, I don't like that term applied to me!" and then to be upset because it excludes you? Theoretically I understand, but um... it's weird.

And I don't think it's a matter of hetero privilege. It's a description of their act of having children. But let's say that it is... is it not their right to "take back" or "own" a derogatory term in the same way I've taken back "Dyke"?

But I do agree on the point of "self-referencing" and "othering".

[Waldo]

I don't want to nitpick the etymology of the word breeder. To take it out of context feels like a bait and switch at a political convention.

I guess at the end of the day we all get to choose how we are going to give our power away and how we are going to take it back. (f)

Furthering understanding by breaking down terms to their root never felt like a bait and switch to me, but if you're uncomfortable with further discussion on the topic I respect that.

And yes, we do get to choose what we give and what we take.

[C0LLETTE]

I can't really find a totally appropriate thread so I've picked this one.

Can we please also stop using the word "bitch"? And maybe abandon the attempt to "reclaim" words that were (and still are ) used to denigrate and humiliate us.

Maybe it's generational but try as I might I can't get comfy with the word "cunt" and I don't see the point of trying. I know some people claim to love these words but I can't help thinking they use them defiantly or in a titillating manner but never unselfconsciously or as part of their natural language. Maybe some words should just be relegated to a museum of horrors ... recognised for what they were or became ... and we move on.

Please do weigh in.