View Full Version : Trans and Relationship's
I have so many things going on in my mind and im curious.
For the Single trans guys out there, do you have issues from the Community telling you to look outside your "gay community" for a relationship?
Do you get bashed because you date within your community?
Conversation has it, we should not be dating lesbian's, femme women inside our community. I disagree, because some transguy's stay within the community. NOT all date straight women.
I just dont agree on this subject.
How do you feel? Simple conversation, not a community bashing thread.
No nit picking. Just curious.
I have so many things going on in my mind and im curious.
For the Single trans guys out there, do you have issues from the Community telling you to look outside your "gay community" for a relationship?
I am not aware of my community telling me to look outside of my "gay community," for a relationship.
Do you get bashed because you date within your community?
No one has bashed me to my "face," because I seek potential dating partners from within my community.
Conversation has it, we should not be dating lesbian's, femme women inside our community. I disagree, because some transguy's stay within the community. NOT all date straight women.
I just dont agree on this subject.
How do you feel? Simple conversation, not a community bashing thread.
No nit picking. Just curious.
I am interested in femmes or queer gals, I'm not interested in dating lesbians—nor do I believe they would be interested in dating me. While my participation in my community may fluctuate, I choose to stay connected.
This community, and others like it who have some form of Butch/Femme/Trans in the title are not geared towards "Straight" anything, there are other websites out there for that.
I would like to know if that feels bad or offensive to anyone, and why. Because I am very interested in having a respectful dialogue about it, either here, or in another thread if it feels inappropriate here.
(Disclaimer) I am going to be pretty busy over the weekend, so if I do not get back to a post right away, it's not because I am ignoring it!
This is exactly what im trying to find out to be quite honest, although i feel straight i still date within the community because i feel the women understand better and they can decide if they want to be with a transguy or not.
Liam, i get the fluctuating within the community. I try to stay connected.
Linus
06-12-2010, 02:10 PM
I have so many things going on in my mind and im curious.
For the Single trans guys out there, do you have issues from the Community telling you to look outside your "gay community" for a relationship?
Do you get bashed because you date within your community?
Conversation has it, we should not be dating lesbian's, femme women inside our community. I disagree, because some transguy's stay within the community. NOT all date straight women.
I just dont agree on this subject.
How do you feel? Simple conversation, not a community bashing thread.
No nit picking. Just curious.
I don't think I've ever been bashed because of dating within the community but have been told I'm a traitor to the community (and, from what I inferred, a traitor to women) for transitioning.
But like some of the other comments above, I do not feel comfortable outside the community. It's not where I feel at home. The straight/heteronormative world isn't mine. I'm lucky to have a partner who is queer in who she dates.
If I was to take on another partner (we maintain a poly outlook on life) I would likely look for another queer partner rather than a straight women.
This is exactly what im trying to find out to be quite honest, although i feel straight i still date within the community because i feel the women understand better and they can decide if they want to be with a transguy or not.
Liam, i get the fluctuating within the community. I try to stay connected.
So, you choose femmes b/c they understand YOU better.
Don't femmes have inherent qualities that stand alone and distinct from their potential of understanding transmen?
I'm not trying to come off with snark; I just would like to know what it is about queer femmes that transguys are attracted to that doesn't have anything to do with themselves.
Removing the potential *understanding* that queer femmes may have for transmen, aren't they different and attractive in ways that a straight woman is not?
Dylan
06-12-2010, 02:15 PM
And to think
I wondered if I could/should participate in the thread, since I'm not single and the question was posed to single transmen
Dylan
And to think
I wondered if I could/should participate in the thread, since I'm not single and the question was posed to single transmen
Dylan
Ok so i should have left out "single" my mistake.
I'm not trying to come off with snark; I just would like to know what it is about queer femmes that transguys are attracted to that doesn't have anything to do with themselves.
I cannot speak for anyone except myself, i date and have relationships with femme's because that is who i am attracted to. High Maintenance, girlie girl type women.
Opposing the question to dating within the community, lol i usually get told to leave the "lesbian" community alone and go out and find a straight woman.
Then im told that i "look" too male. So i best get moving on.
I chuckle to myself, cause these are tweeners that have issues and like to cause drama.
I just want to live my life, keep friends and tread lightly with the community.
Dylan
06-12-2010, 02:34 PM
June,
Fragile is definitely not a word I would use to describe you.
I just find it interesting that out of nine posts on a question posed to transmen in a trans thread, three of the responses are by cispeople, and two of the posts are asking for explanations while the other one talks about how cispeople feel about trans people in queer space.
It's Just Ironic To Me Especially When Added To The Fact That I Asked The OP If It Would Be Out Of Line If I (as a coupled transperson) Was Welcome To Post,
Dylan
Im sorry for singling out transguys, it was not my intention.
And this is a community and EVERYONE is welcome in this conversation
Dylan be nice lol
sometimes threads heat up, sometimes they die off. im sick of having this conversation with a one sided lesbian that is NOT on the planet but texts me off the wall cause i was interested in HER ex. and i just need input here.
thread is open to EVERYONE. keep it clean
"HowSoonIsNow" i like snarkieness. bring it on. :)
im sick of having this conversation with a one sided lesbian that is NOT on the planet but texts me off the wall cause i was interested in HER ex.
Gosh Sam, block her, no one needs that kind of negativity in their life!
"HowSoonIsNow" i like snarkieness. bring it on. :)
I really don't do snark. So, no, I won't be bringing any!
I asked the question with sincerity.
Apologies for posting in a thread that was not asking for my opinion--I usually read closer and don't intrude upon others' spaces. I blame it on not reading the OP closely enough, then seeing June's post and, mostly, my own compulsion to post when I read your words about femmes understanding you better than straight women and the fact that I have wondered about this subject myself.
Thank you, Sam, for responding to my question/post.
I really don't do snark. So, no, I won't be bringing any!
I asked the question with sincerity.
Apologies for posting in a thread that was not asking for my opinion--I usually read closer and don't intrude upon others' spaces. I blame it on not reading the OP closely enough, then seeing June's post and, mostly, my own compulsion to post when I read your words about femmes understanding you better than straight women and the fact that I have wondered about this subject myself.
Thank you, Sam, for responding to my question/post.
You can post here anytime. i like the difference of opinions, that is what makes us unique.
i know you were sincere, i just went on with the snark comment. im sorry. didnt mean to offend you
I am interested in femmes or queer gals, I'm not interested in dating lesbians—nor do I believe they would be interested in dating me. While my participation in my community may fluctuate, I choose to stay connected.
ditto. this seems to be my niche — the availability of transensual femmes who I find very attractive. It;s just too bad it'll never happen. (for reasons)
Dylan
06-12-2010, 03:02 PM
I find it interesting that trans people are not only told they are not part of the glbTq community, but they're also then told how to act/acceptable terms/whom they may partner with/etc when they are in the glbTq
Yet the same 'rules' are not expected when the glbq's are in the T community
This isn't a retort towards you June...honest. I'm talking about the OP.
I have definitely been told I whom I 'should' be dating. We have all been told how we 'should' act in this community. We've all seen those who don't 'behave' excommunicated. It's just funny to me that trans ppl are often seen as 'guests' of the glbq community who can be easily discarded if they don't abide by the 'rules' even though we've helped the glbq community forever. Yet never once have I seen a cis glbq ask about their behavior when in T space...it's almost just an assumption that glbq's 'should' be welcome.
It's just funny to me
In A Not HaHa Way,
Dylan
atomiczombie
06-12-2010, 03:02 PM
As a transguy, I have insecurities about being part of this community. In many ways I do feel comfortable with you guys and gals in a way I don't feel at all comfortable in the cis/straight world. I consider myself queer, because my primary attraction is to femmes, and I am not at home in the cis/straight world. I love the LGBTQ community.
My insecurities are about how I fit into the butch-femme community as a transguy. Will anyone be interested in me once the T that I am on has changed my body? Will anyone still see me as a legitimate member here? Most importantly, will people here still see ME, and not just my body? I am on disability. I live out in the middle of a rural small town area. I have issues with anxiety and panic disorder. There are plenty of reasons for femmes to not have any interest in me. I just hope that my trans status isn't one of them.
All that being said, only once so far have I pursued a femme who told me no, and it was because she wanted to be with a woman. No one has called me traitor or said I wasn't welcome here. I just worry that it might happen, cause I have heard of guys being treated that way. I think it is sad and hurtful.
And by the way, I am attracted to femmes because they are powerful, strong women who embody femininity and courage and heart. They are bold, unapologetic, and not afraid to stand up and be proud of who they are and who they love. No one else touches my heart and heats my desires like a femme.
Thanks for starting this thread Sam.
Linus
06-12-2010, 03:04 PM
I find it interesting that trans people are not only told they are not part of the glbTq community, but they're also then told how to act/acceptable terms/whom they may partner with/etc when they are in the glbTq
Yet the same 'rules' are not expected when the glbq's are in the T community
This isn't a retort towards you June...honest. I'm talking about the OP.
I have definitely been told I whom I 'should' be dating. We have all been told how we 'should' act in this community. We've all seen those who don't 'behave' excommunicated. It's just funny to me that trans ppl are often seen as 'guests' of the glbq community who can be easily discarded if they don't abide by the 'rules' even though we've helped the glbq community forever. Yet never once have I seen a cis glbq ask about their behavior when in T space...it's almost just an assumption that glbq's 'should' be welcome.
It's just funny to me
In A Not HaHa Way,
Dylan
Perhaps this may be a worthwhile separate thread to start, Dylan.
Dylan
06-12-2010, 03:13 PM
I have so many things going on in my mind and im curious.
For the Single trans guys out there, do you have issues from the Community telling you to look outside your "gay community" for a relationship?
Do you get bashed because you date within your community?
Conversation has it, we should not be dating lesbian's, femme women inside our community. I disagree, because some transguy's stay within the community. NOT all date straight women.
I just dont agree on this subject.
How do you feel? Simple conversation, not a community bashing thread.
No nit picking. Just curious.
Perhaps this may be a worthwhile separate thread to start, Dylan.
I've bolded the parts that make me feel it's right on target with the conversation and OP
Queers (queer trans people) are often told they *should* be dating straight people...even if the GLBTQ community is theirs too.
Queer transpeople are also told how to act in the GLBTQ community ("You shouldn't be dating SoAndSo"/"You shouldn't be seeking a partner here"/etc)
Yet, the same rules don't apply for cis queers
I Think It's Right In Line With The Conversation,
Dylan
Linus
06-12-2010, 03:17 PM
I've bolded the parts that make me feel it's right on target with the conversation and OP
Queers (queer trans people) are often told they *should* be dating straight people...even if the GLBTQ community is theirs too.
Queer transpeople are also told how to act in the GLBTQ community ("You shouldn't be dating SoAndSo"/"You shouldn't be seeking a partner here"/etc)
Yet, the same rules don't apply for cis queers
I Think It's Right In Line With The Conversation,
Dylan
Sorry. I wasn't clear.
Yes, it's on topic but I'm thinking it may be an interesting discussion in a larger scheme beyond dating.
Dylan
06-12-2010, 03:30 PM
Dylan -- You can retort back to me! And I do get what you are saying, I have seen that as well.
For me, when I am in this space, I operate on the assumption that we are all willing participants in the same broader community that we all create here. Not the .com, the people who choose to engage here. That may very well be coming from a place of Femme Privilege for me, I am a Femme in the Butch/Femme Spectrum. No one ever questions why I am here. (Well, perhaps some people wish I would sit down and shut up, but that's a whole 'nother issue!).
Yes, certain behaviors are called into question. For instance, it is well documented that I am not a fan of "I'm so Butch/Femme/Male that I never..." or if a man comes here and says "I'm only interested in straight women", that's problematic for me *here*. Now, if I was sitting across the table from a Transman and he said "I am only interested in straight women" that is different to me, because we are not necessarily in Queer Space. If I was single, and dating or thinking about dating said Man and they said that to me, I would be pretty affronted and probably respond with "Then baby, you are barking up the wrong tree, I'm not straight and even if we dated, I wouldn't be straight". That is me. I know that there are Femmes out there who have partnered with Transmen who do now consider themselves straight.
I hope that I have not come across as "telling" someone who they should or should not partner with, or beyond moderation, telling anyone how they should behave here. I am totally not snarking or yanking your chain when I ask you now for examples, because I think I know, but I don't want to presume I do for sure.
So, let me ask you then.
In re: to the part I've bolded.
A) If a cis woman comes on the site, IDs as queer, but is married to a cis-man, and has no interest in dating ANYONE (because she's happily partnered to her cismale partner)...do you have a problem with her being on the site?
I ask, because I don't consider whom someone is attracted to as relevant to how they ID for themselves, and whether or not that attraction makes or breaks their queerdom. What about butches who date other butches and aren't into femmes at all? Can they still be here? Or are they also an issue.
B) Does whomever One is attracted TO make or break their queer card? In other words, is One's queer identity dependent upon whomever they're interested in? Ergo, is one still queer if One dates, NO ONE?
C) Do YOU believe het people can be queer?
I'm Having A Hard Time Wording Exactly What I Want To Say, So I Lettered...Not Being Curt Or Terse,
Dylan
PapaC
06-12-2010, 03:33 PM
Be Yourself. If you feel like you need to ask permission within a community for allowances...
expect someone to say no.
But then, I didn't find like I was turned into an instant pariah after that (gasp) one shot of T coursed into my veins and I became a big bad man and all.
it's a complex situation, sure, but when you look for complex situations, you usually find them.
The Oopster
06-12-2010, 04:10 PM
[/SIZE]I find it interesting that trans people are not only told they are not part of the glbTq community, but they're also then told how to act/acceptable terms/whom they may partner with/etc when they are in the glbTq
Yet the same 'rules' are not expected when the glbq's are in the T community
This isn't a retort towards you June...honest. I'm talking about the OP.
I have definitely been told I whom I 'should' be dating. We have all been told how we 'should' act in this community. We've all seen those who don't 'behave' excommunicated. It's just funny to me that trans ppl are often seen as 'guests' of the glbq community who can be easily discarded if they don't abide by the 'rules' even though we've helped the glbq community forever. Yet never once have I seen a cis glbq ask about their behavior when in T space...it's almost just an assumption that glbq's 'should' be welcome.
It's just funny to me
In A Not HaHa Way,
Dylan
I guess I feel fortunated that i don't feel bound to any community I just go where I feel like I fit. Maybe part of that is due to never really being in the "gay" part of the community ... i Passed go and went right to Jail (the butch-femme community) ;) Even at that I've gotten a lot of support from the Butch-femme community but it's just part of my world. It's the same with the transgender community. I have other transgendered people in my world but my whole life isn't centered on it. Even in recovery it's part of my life and a huge part that I bring into the rest of my life but i'm not sequestered in it.
It's weird for the most part I can't think of feeling I've been told to act or be or date a certain person/way. Or maybe i've gotten better at not caring what other people think and just haven't realized .... hmmmm. Again I wonder if that's due to not being centered in one world.
Dylan -- You can retort back to me! And I do get what you are saying, I have seen that as well.
For me, when I am in this space, I operate on the assumption that we are all willing participants in the same broader community that we all create here. Not the .com, the people who choose to engage here. That may very well be coming from a place of Femme Privilege for me, I am a Femme in the Butch/Femme Spectrum. No one ever questions why I am here. (Well, perhaps some people wish I would sit down and shut up, but that's a whole 'nother issue!).
Yes, certain behaviors are called into question. For instance, it is well documented that I am not a fan of "I'm so Butch/Femme/Male that I never..." or if a man comes here and says "I'm only interested in straight women", that's problematic for me *here*. Now, if I was sitting across the table from a Transman and he said "I am only interested in straight women" that is different to me, because we are not necessarily in Queer Space. If I was single, and dating or thinking about dating said Man and they said that to me, I would be pretty affronted and probably respond with "Then baby, you are barking up the wrong tree, I'm not straight and even if we dated, I wouldn't be straight". That is me. I know that there are Femmes out there who have partnered with Transmen who do now consider themselves straight.
I hope that I have not come across as "telling" someone who they should or should not partner with, or beyond moderation, telling anyone how they should behave here. I am totally not snarking or yanking your chain when I ask you now for examples, because I think I know, but I don't want to presume I do for sure.
So, let me ask you then.
In re: to the part I've bolded.
A) If a cis woman comes on the site, IDs as queer, but is married to a cis-man, and has no interest in dating ANYONE (because she's happily partnered to her cismale partner)...do you have a problem with her being on the site?
I ask, because I don't consider whom someone is attracted to as relevant to how they ID for themselves, and whether or not that attraction makes or breaks their queerdom. What about butches who date other butches and aren't into femmes at all? Can they still be here? Or are they also an issue.
B) Does whomever One is attracted TO make or break their queer card? In other words, is One's queer identity dependent upon whomever they're interested in? Ergo, is one still queer if One dates, NO ONE?
C) Do YOU believe het people can be queer?
I'm Having A Hard Time Wording Exactly What I Want To Say, So I Lettered...Not Being Curt Or Terse,
Dylan
I'm also thinking maybe some of the stuff blows in and out of one ear because of my motives for being. It's weird to hear everyone talking how who they would date as being a qualifier for being on this site. I may or may not find someone to date on this site, I may find them in a straight bar, at the glbtqi(and I know I have to be missing some letters) center, or just walking down the street.
I come on this site to get support in being whatever person I'm finding myself to become and to give support to others to freely become the person they are suppose to be.
I've stated this other places before that when it comes to dating I hope to not limit myself to just one arena. One arena could be this site, this community, the straight community, the lesbian community, etc... I hope that I can allow myself to be open enough that I won't miss the wonderful person that is suppose to be part of my life. Likewise I hope that person will be open enough to give me a chance and not put limits on who they are looking for.
Dylan
06-12-2010, 04:18 PM
No, but I (as in me, June) would wonder if she wasn't questioning. I mean, we're all real fascinating, but couldn't she find the same types of conversations that are not gender oriented somewhere else that catered to straight, cis folks? Now, if she wanted to read and participate, I just don't want to police things that much, and besides, some of my best friends are both straight and cis. So no, I don't personally have a problem with it.
Here's the part that struck me as interesting. I never said anything about the woman IDing as straight. I purposely made no mention of her orientation. But you went ahead and assumed she would ID as straight. It's just interesting to me.
In my personal opinion, Butches who date other Butches are Queer (as in Gay, part of this community because they choose to be here and participate) However they personally ID. So, while it is unlikely that a Butch who is into other Butches would come here and say "I am straight, but I am Butch and into other Butches" I guess, it could happen?
I don't find it unlikely at all that a male ID'd butch would be interested in dating female ID'd butches, and would/could consider that a straight relationship. Butches who date other butches aren't necessarily queer. Lots of different groups use the term butch.
I think I was pretty clear in my example of a straight man wanting to date me and how I feel about my own personal Queerness, they will not make me straight, and in my own personal world, and I have said this before and it's real, real unpopular for some folks, if that man wants to date me, then they get all Queered up by me. And to be clear, any man I would ever date (as far as how I think/feel at this moment) would not be Cis or Straight. If I was single and dating no one, yeah, I would still be a Queer Femme.
if a man comes here and says "I'm only interested in straight women", that's problematic for me *here*.
This is what I was specifically referring to...not the part about a date saying to you, personally, he was only into straight women.
I was wondering if One's partner makes/breaks their queer card. More specifically if a man's queer card gets taken away if he's only interested in dating straight women. If anyone's queer card gets taken away if they date NO ONE. Or if a femme's queer card gets taken away if she only dates men.
Is that problematic for you as well?
I believe they are free to ID as Queer. Do I think they are Queer? No. Not if they are cis and straight. But it doesn't get me all overwrought if they do. It doesn't affect my life anymore than a straight, cis woman married to a straight, cis man does by claiming Femme. Some people do get really worked up over that though.
So, het, cis people can't be queer? Are you saying then that there's no queer communities in the het world? No matter how a person IDs for themselves, you still consider them NOT queer? But, if someone is trans, they're still queer even if they ID as straight? Would it be problematic for you if that straight, cis woman who claimed Femme participated on this site?
I'm not trying to be a pain in one's rear, and I see this as completely on topic...I guess Sam is the boss of that tho. I'm quite interested in having this conversation also (the one Sam presented), and I think breaking it down is a good way of understanding.
And I swear, if the weather weren't so gross outside, I would immediately get offline and ask no more questions for the whole day.
I really have to go do some stuff! I will get back later if I can, and I hope this is not derailing Sam's intent. And also, I hope it's not looking like the June and Dylan show here, my apologies if it does, and you know, Dylan and I can go get a room somewhere and hash this out. ;)[/QUOTE]
Maybe we should make sock puppets?
Dylan
Its all good, its conversation in all variations.
Opinions are fascinating.
Gayla
06-12-2010, 08:21 PM
I do love it that y'all make me think about the why's of the ways I think.
For me, "queer" is about the attraction/behavior factor. I guess I see anything outside the norm as being queer so, yes, I know heterosexual people who are queer and I know gay people who are not queer. That's partially me slapping my own label on people and partially the label they choose for themselves.
I think being butch/femme/trans is not, in and of itself queer as much as our attraction to others outside the "normal" spectrum of what is expected somehow queers us. I have many friends who are female ID'd lesbians attracted to other female ID'd lesbians. They do not ID as butch or femme. This is kind of the normal, expected version of lesbian relationships so I don't really see them as queer and most of them don't see themselves that way and many of them are horrified at the word. On the other hand, I know a ton of people who ID as heterosexual but have attractions to / interactions with people in very queer ways.
I think, for me, "queer" is in many ways tied to kink so, based on my reference points, anything that may be seen as "kinky" to the outside world would be seen as "queer" to me. This would include not only people involved in specific BDSM activities but anything else that is viewed as outside the norm for those individuals.
As to some of Dylan's questions, I know several women who are married to cismen and ID as heterosexual who hang out on b-f websites and a couple who hang out in b-f and/or primarily gay kink space in real time. The specific circumstances of their relationships are not my business but if this is where they feel comfortable and what they consider their community, I'm not one to tell them the don't "belong" based on their current relationship. For me, this would go back to the part about individual ID's not being based on who someone is partnered with.
Personally, it would feel a little icky for someone who ID's as a heterosexual male, and does not see themselves as queer in any way, to be here for the purpose of meeting a potential partner (whether that's for a relationship, dating or sex.)
I tried to think this out but I doubt I did a very good job of it really. So, I reserve the right to come back later and completely contradict myself if questioned! :)
Dylan
06-12-2010, 08:36 PM
I do love it that y'all make me think about the why's of the ways I think.
For me, "queer" is about the attraction/behavior factor. I guess I see anything outside the norm as being queer so, yes, I know heterosexual people who are queer and I know gay people who are not queer. That's partially me slapping my own label on people and partially the label they choose for themselves.
I think being butch/femme/trans is not, in and of itself queer as much as our attraction to others outside the "normal" spectrum of what is expected somehow queers us. I have many friends who are female ID'd lesbians attracted to other female ID'd lesbians. They do not ID as butch or femme. This is kind of the normal, expected version of lesbian relationships so I don't really see them as queer and most of them don't see themselves that way and many of them are horrified at the word. On the other hand, I know a ton of people who ID as heterosexual but have attractions to / interactions with people in very queer ways.
I think, for me, "queer" is in many ways tied to kink so, based on my reference points, anything that may be seen as "kinky" to the outside world would be seen as "queer" to me. This would include not only people involved in specific BDSM activities but anything else that is viewed as outside the norm for those individuals.
As to some of Dylan's questions, I know several women who are married to cismen and ID as heterosexual who hang out on b-f websites and a couple who hang out in b-f and/or primarily gay kink space in real time. The specific circumstances of their relationships are not my business but if this is where they feel comfortable and what they consider their community, I'm not one to tell them the don't "belong" based on their current relationship. For me, this would go back to the part about individual ID's not being based on who someone is partnered with.
Personally, it would feel a little icky for someone who ID's as a heterosexual male, and does not see themselves as queer in any way, to be here for the purpose of meeting a potential partner (whether that's for a relationship, dating or sex.)
I tried to think this out but I doubt I did a very good job of it really. So, I reserve the right to come back later and completely contradict myself if questioned! :)
I too know a number of het folks who not only ID as queer, but who are also more *culturally* queer than some other queers I know.
But then, I think I view *queer* in the same manner as you're expressing here. I (me,me,me) DO think het folks can be queer. I don't think *queer* is only for gays/lesbians/bisexuals. I mean, I know het people in the poly community who take a lot of flack from the straight world. I also know some het kinkers and some het swingers. Some of the ID as (het) queer and some don't.
What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.
I, me personally, am cool with anyone who IDs as queer or considers themselves *culturally* queer enough to not be an offensive asshole. I don't remember any cis, straight men ever being on the either site making an ass of himself...but I DO remember a couple cis, straight women being on the (old) site being over privileged assholes saying whatever they wanted.
So, it's just interesting to me.
Dylan
Gayla
06-12-2010, 09:01 PM
I'm sure there are a number of cis heterosexual ID's people of both genders on both/all sites. I don't know everyone and I really don't know those who are not active or vocal. There are a lot of lurkers.
Personally, and pardon the graphic nature, but I don't think it gets much queerer then a straight guy with a transman's fist up his ass. Queer is as queer does? Which then makes me wonder if I have a scale of queer. I think I do because I often rate things as being "more" or "less" queer the way I just did. That's a tangent that is way off topic, sorry.
Just to clarify, as no offense was intended in my previous post and I was speaking about my own thoughts/feelings/judgements in an honest way from the gayla space. I have never, and will never, say that anyone "shouldn't" be here on this site, or any site, for any reason. That was kind of the point of my post. Your individual ID and reasons for wanting to be included in this community are really none of my business and I will never use them as some type of scale for determining who belongs and who doesn't. With the exception of the obvious trollers/spammers, I think everyone has right to be here if they want to be.
That being said, it would feel "icky" to me mostly because I wouldn't really understand why someone who ID's as a non-queer, heterosexual male and is not interested in becoming involved with anyone other then non-queer ID'ing heterosexual women, would come to this site in search of a partner. That "icky"-ness would be based on my own history of interactions with straight guys who think lesbians are just for their entertainment or for "conquering". I do not have any issue with non-queer, heterosexual male ID'ing individuals being involved on the site, or in b-f/gay community in general if it's a place they feel comfortable and included and feel like they belong.
I also have absolutely no issues at all (cannot state this emphatically enough without it sounding like one of those "my best friends are..." kind things) with transmen, FTM's, GQ, etc. individuals being on the site or in b-f space ever and I don't think I implied that in any way in my previous post. If that was how it came across or I somehow implied that without realizing it, please accept my apology and know that I will try much harder in the future not to say anything that may be read that way.
Dylan
06-12-2010, 09:29 PM
I'm sure there are a number of cis heterosexual ID's people of both genders on both/all sites. I don't know everyone and I really don't know those who are not active or vocal. There are a lot of lurkers.
Personally, and pardon the graphic nature, but I don't think it gets much queerer then a straight guy with a transman's fist up his ass. Queer is as queer does? Which then makes me wonder if I have a scale of queer. I think I do because I often rate things as being "more" or "less" queer the way I just did. That's a tangent that is way off topic, sorry.
Just to clarify, as no offense was intended in my previous post and I was speaking about my own thoughts/feelings/judgements in an honest way from the gayla space. I have never, and will never, say that anyone "shouldn't" be here on this site, or any site, for any reason. That was kind of the point of my post. Your individual ID and reasons for wanting to be included in this community are really none of my business and I will never use them as some type of scale for determining who belongs and who doesn't. With the exception of the obvious trollers/spammers, I think everyone has right to be here if they want to be.
That being said, it would feel "icky" to me mostly because I wouldn't really understand why someone who ID's as a non-queer, heterosexual male and is not interested in becoming involved with anyone other then non-queer ID'ing heterosexual women, would come to this site in search of a partner. That "icky"-ness would be based on my own history of interactions with straight guys who think lesbians are just for their entertainment or for "conquering". I do not have any issue with non-queer, heterosexual male ID'ing individuals being involved on the site, or in b-f/gay community in general if it's a place they feel comfortable and included and feel like they belong.
I also have absolutely no issues at all (cannot state this emphatically enough without it sounding like one of those "my best friends are..." kind things) with transmen, FTM's, GQ, etc. individuals being on the site or in b-f space ever and I don't think I implied that in any way in my previous post. If that was how it came across or I somehow implied that without realizing it, please accept my apology and know that I will try much harder in the future not to say anything that may be read that way.
I wasn't saying I read you as offensive at all. I apologize if I somehow implied that. I really didn't think that.
It's just interesting to me that a cis, straight male is seen as 'more suspect' (?) than a cis, straight female. That's all I was saying.
So, that part is just interesting to me. And you're definitely not the only person to express that.
Fairly recently, Firie and I were having a conversation about a het-queer acquaintance of ours. He's part of the queer community because he's poly. He's extremely privileged in so many arenas (class, white, read as straight, male, able-bodied), and he says the stupidest shit. Firie asked me if I thought he should be 'allowed' on the site. I think he should be 'allowed' on the site. But I also know he'd be gone after his first or second post, because he'd say something incredibly stupid.
But then, I have other friends who don't ID as queer, but who are more *culturally* queer than some queer people I know.
But I would question ANYONE who ID'd as straight and had no tie to the queer community coming around voicing their opinions about shit.
I mean, it's a queer website, and if you're not *affiliated*, I could really give a rip about your opinions...yanno what I'm sayin?
Dylan
Dylan
06-12-2010, 09:44 PM
Dylan -- Who is saying that? Did you read me as saying it? Or have you experienced others saying it? Your use of *most* is confusing to me. Was there a poll or survey I missed?
I read gayla as saying that
You said, you'd read a cis married woman as 'questioning'.
You also said it would be problematic to you if a there were a (straight) man on the site who was only into straight women
Comments have been made all over both sites throughout the years
Met said it in a thread not that long ago...can't remember the thread...maybe the expectations thread? I'll find it.
Seriously, it's been said in the past. Additionally, whenever the idea of hets on the site comes up, it *usually* (and honestly, I can only remember one exception, right now and that was OBB saying married women are not lesbians) turns into a conversation about how the site will be 'invaded' by straight men being pigs.
I don't know how One would poll it...I don't even know how to make a poll. Hell, I don't even know if my membership lets me make a poll. Too bad we couldn't do it now without unbiased answers based on this thread.
Dylan
Gayla
06-12-2010, 09:56 PM
What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.
I said it, in relation to the thread topic, in the context of ...looking for a partner. But yeah, I think that if a cis het guy were on the site, with no connection to the community other then google, and vocal about that ID, it would be an issue.
I think many of us have been socialize towards the "straight guys are creepy in queer space" kinda thing. At the same time, I think we are much more tolerant of females in general no matter their ID, biology, or background. And yes, I totally own the sexism that is inherent in both of those statements. Recognizing it for what it is doesn't change the fact that it is.
Dylan
06-12-2010, 11:01 PM
I would stick my neck out (put the damn hatchett down!) and say that the VAST majority of Femme's who participate on this site are NOT interested in the attention of straight, cis men. Now, there may be some Bi Femmes who are, and that's fine, but this site is not geared towards Bi cis women hooking up with Bi cis men. Can we agree to that?
And I really need you (since no one else is questioning my intent) to understand what I am saying about men who have left our community in search of straight women, failed and came back after having loudly announcing they were only interested in STRAIGHT women. And yeah, I have seen it, and yeah, it pisses me the fuck off because it implies that Femme's are 2nd rate and less desireable, and that is not okay behavior to me. And I feel really strongly about this one piece, which is why I am taking the time to clarify.
Well, here's the thing, I would wonder why any straight ID'd person who wants nothing to do with the queer community would be here.
But why why why is it only assumed that very few femmes here would be interested? What about butches or transguys? Do they count? Or is it just about the assumption that femmes wouldn't be interested? Why is there NO assumption at all about what butches or transguys would be interested in?
And again, why is it assumed a man would only be interested in femmes? Perhaps that man is interested in butches?
I'm just curious about these repeated assumptions...in a queer community.
Also, why is it more acceptable if say a cis woman were to come here *questioning* her sexuality, but it's not ok if a man is here questioning *his* sexuality?
You said yourself if a cis woman married to a cis man were to come here, you're assumption would be (not that she IDs as queer, but) that she's 'questioning'. What if she made a few stupid comments while she were here *testing out the waters* or *questioning* her shit?
Now, I'm seriously NOT condoning anyone making stupid comments, and I've seen some of the comments re: straight women. I'm not condoning that. I am saying that I don't think One's queer ID has necessarily something to do with whom One is interested in partnering with.
I mean, frankly, I don't understand wanting to be on a queer site if you don't ID with the queer community. But again, I'm just really (truly) intrigued by some of the assumptions.
Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.
Gayla
06-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.
I kinda feel like we are, too. I also am starting to feel a little schizophrenic because I'm having a number of conversations about this in different places. I would encourage those of you PM'ing me to post here because I think it would lead to some good conversations. (Not to mention, make me look a less crazy.)
At the core, I think we all have certain assumptions about what b-f community is and who is a part of it. My assumption is that the active members of this site will primarily be butch or femme and that their primary attractions will be to butches or femmes. I also assume that there are a number of people here that may not currently ID as butch or femme but have had some type of history with the community, or history of a b-f identity, to feel a sense of belonging here.
I do not assume that there are a significant number of heterosexual cis men actively participating here or that they are here in search of heterosexual cis women to partner with. I guess I'm trying to figure out if you're saying that we should assume that or that we should just not have assumptions about anything ever here.
What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.
Dylan
Dylan -- Who is saying that? Did you read me as saying it? Or have you experienced others saying it? Your use of *most* is confusing to me. Was there a poll or survey I missed?
I read gayla as saying that
You said, you'd read a cis married woman as 'questioning'.
You also said it would be problematic to you if a there were a (straight) man on the site who was only into straight women
Comments have been made all over both sites throughout the years
Met said it in a thread not that long ago...can't remember the thread...maybe the expectations thread? I'll find it.
....snip...
Dylan
Just for the record... yep except it wasn't really about straight men, but a response to you're questions why does the community use the word "transman" instead of man when referring to men of trans experience and also why femmes may be attracted to transmen but not cis straight men.
Who belongs here? Anyone who feels like they belong here and feel a connection to these things in what-ever way.
That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive (rather than making a distinction of traits) or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?
Ok, that's outta the way...
I would be more suspect, even if the cis het man said he was exploring (questioning) his cis het male status and it would have zero to do with "who's welcome here" or not.
I don't like that it's that way but considering the history of online sexual predators of which the vast majority are male (I think it's like 99% but know it's like upper 90th percentile), coupled with men who find lesbianism, or female queers arousing, add the plethora of porn available depicting the rapes of lesbians and the history of violence against women by males... etc. etc. etc. I believe there's adequate well documented reasons for more concern as to why a cis het male would be cruising for these sites.
I think it would be a bad idea for us to just put our guard down and swing our arms open and hey, meet ya for coffee type interaction we more normally are able to enjoy with each other.
If he did say he was questioning I would absolutely be welcoming, but I would be have a good deal of caution in my mind whether I like it or not. The society we live in has shown extremely clearly over and over why we should be more cautious of men, as a female, than I would around other females.
It's unfortunate yes, especially if he's really questioning, It's not pretty but I don't think it's sexist, we're not responsible for that type of reaction to the situation. Other men who've perpetuated the violence and created that history and hence ingrained reaction are responsible.
I want to make clear I responding to why a cis het man would "be more suspect" than a cis het female or responded to perhaps differently. Not whether they should be welcomed on the site.
*Sam... not to be completely derailing... to you're OP. I personally don't have any issues with transmen who feel a connection to this community dating within it but yeah I'm sure some do.
To me it should be obvious that in that connection is the reason for their being here and belonging here just as much as anyone else with that connection.
I hate the "who belongs here" conversations (not in this context Sam ;)) because I think that's for the individual to decide for themselves whether the feel a part of it, it's a personal thing and not up for anyone else to say what anyone is or feels.
Sorry you've had that experience.
Metro
Inquisitive June thinks you might be looking for someone to say "Because the Butch/Femme dynamic as presented/repreresented in communities like this historically pertain to female bodied people" so we can play AHA! I think it's deeper than that with so many of our members now not IDing as female anything. So, while it may have started out that way, it is no longer true and we (as in all of us who engage on some level) are involved in the evolution of this community. And for me, as a Femme and a human, it is often a painful to watch and engage in.
Great Post!!!!
this is a great dialog because you are NOT narrow minded. I truly wish there were more people out there that actually could stop and think about ID's.
We all ID as someone, be it trans, male, butch, femme, queer and SO ON...
But the community has a foundation, and we all need to connect in the way our minds want to connect.
SassyLeo
06-14-2010, 06:22 PM
Well, here's the thing, I would wonder why any straight ID'd person who wants nothing to do with the queer community would be here.
But why why why is it only assumed that very few femmes here would be interested? What about butches or transguys? Do they count? Or is it just about the assumption that femmes wouldn't be interested? Why is there NO assumption at all about what butches or transguys would be interested in?
And again, why is it assumed a man would only be interested in femmes? Perhaps that man is interested in butches?
I'm just curious about these repeated assumptions...in a queer community.
Also, why is it more acceptable if say a cis woman were to come here *questioning* her sexuality, but it's not ok if a man is here questioning *his* sexuality?
You said yourself if a cis woman married to a cis man were to come here, you're assumption would be (not that she IDs as queer, but) that she's 'questioning'. What if she made a few stupid comments while she were here *testing out the waters* or *questioning* her shit?
Now, I'm seriously NOT condoning anyone making stupid comments, and I've seen some of the comments re: straight women. I'm not condoning that. I am saying that I don't think One's queer ID has necessarily something to do with whom One is interested in partnering with.
I mean, frankly, I don't understand wanting to be on a queer site if you don't ID with the queer community. But again, I'm just really (truly) intrigued by some of the assumptions.
Dylan...I feel like we're starting to talk in circles.
To me this is a no-brainer-
Why do people do anything we don't understand? I don't understand certain relationship dynamics and choose not to participate in them, but not much surprises me these days. This is not to be obnoxious, I promise... I am not into the diaper fetish-not my cup of tea, but I've poked around on some sites because over the years because I'm oddly intrigued by what the "draw" is...
Also, I have some het friends who have asked me numerous questions over the years about me/my community/my identity. I have of course, dialogued with them...but I also have told them about the site(s) I participate in and who knows maybe they joined to educate themselves? I am taking the greater good side, here...and I am sure there are weirdos who join the site for some creepy fetish or to be an asshat.
Sometimes, Dylan, all kidding aside, it feels like you are looking for answers to extreme hypothetical situations. So much of how I respond to individuals has to do with how they couch their involvement here. I can't say for sure what I would do/say or how I would feel if a cis man came here and started a thread claiming space for his own personal exploration into his sexuality. I have never seen that happen. Conversely, I have seen many cis women married to cis men come to these sites over the years and say "Hi, I think I might be a (insert ID here) and I want to talk about it". Many of them are still here with us, years later.
Inquisitive June thinks you might be looking for someone to say "Because the Butch/Femme dynamic as presented/repreresented in communities like this historically pertain to female bodied people" so we can play AHA! I think it's deeper than that with so many of our members now not IDing as female anything. So, while it may have started out that way, it is no longer true and we (as in all of us who engage on some level) are involved in the evolution of this community. And for me, as a Femme and a human, it is often a painful to watch and engage in.
Ditto this. Sometimes I feel like we go around and around doing the:
What if ________?
What about _________?
Of the 1200 members of the site, what if ONE person was offended by the word: PINK; are we going to ban the word PINK because one person might fly off the handle? When it is not a word that has ever been thought of as offensive? Or even the word Gay. Some don't like it, some might even feel it is offensive, but what does the MAJORITY feel? We get so much into the "one in a million" conversations that to me, it becomes pointless. I'm not saying we shouldn't be sensitive and recognize our behavior and language, but this "extreme case" kind of dialoguing is so laborious.
Gayla
06-14-2010, 07:01 PM
As I've been thinking about this more over the last couple of days, I think for me it just gets back to that question of belonging. Looking back at the original post, it does kind of come down to that. "Do I belong here if..."
For so long, many of us, have felt excluded from so many different communities that there is a regular (if not constant) need for validation that I fit here and can claim this community as my own. I also think that we work so hard at being inclusive of every different ID that it starts to sound "bad" if we exclude anyone. The just plain truth of the matter is that, in my opinion, this site is not a place where straight, cis gendered men belong.
I'm not naive enough to think that they would never be here, whether that's just in passing, lurking or actually creating a user account and participating on some level. The anonymity of the Interwebs allows anyone to be anything and I'm sure there are some guys who come here thinking it's a porn site and decide it would be fun to stick around. The thought is a little creepy to me because I tend to think everyone is who they say they are but, again, I'm not naive enough to think it doesn't happen. I also think that if someone where to out themselves as a straight, cis gendered male that we would be respectful of whatever situation brought them here and, if nothing else, point them in directions that may more closely resemble what they were looking for in the first place.
But, I don't think I would go so far as to welcome them and try to convince everyone that we should be inclusive of them in some way. And I think that's perfectly ok.
Random
06-15-2010, 12:41 AM
What I think is funny (not ha ha) is that *most* people are ok with allowing a cis het woman who's married come on and stuff, and wouldn't have *too* much of an issue with it, but people *would* have an issue with a het guy coming onto the site.
Dylan
For me there is a difference..
A cis het woman who is married may be questioning her sexuality and may be here to learn, to see if this is her community..
I used to be one of those, so to me her coming to question makes sense..
A cis het guy could not say the same thing in the same way... I would question a cis het guywho was questioning his sexuality joining a site where the predominate members are gay/queer woman (cis and trans) or guys who were born biologically female. I would think that he would visit male gay sites.
I would have issues with a cis het guy coming in and demanding space here.. I mean, left freaking face it.. The world is their playground.. Our space is pretty precious to me...
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