View Full Version : The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate
Linus
06-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Apparently a trans woman (http://www.mpbn.net/News/MaineNewsArchive/tabid/181/ctl/ViewItem/mid/3475/ItemId/12603/Default.aspx) (pre-op) was denied access to the women's bathroom at a Denny's --- even though she has been using that washroom in that same Denny's for the last year :blink:
Even as an FTM, I have been refused the right to be in the "washroom" or change room of choice. Most recently I had contacted a 24-hour gym to see which facilities I'd be asked to use. They said it would be whatever is on my official ID (which is still F). I somehow doubt that me -- full beard and all -- would be really welcomed in the women's change room.
I was at least pleased that they were honestly enough to reply to my email about this upfront but seriously, it's annoying to wonder at times. I like working out at gyms sometimes (especially spinning classes) but don't want to wait until I have surgery (part of the need to lose weight is in prep for surgery and general health).
Sigh.
Sorry. Just needed to vent a bit. If anyone wants to comment, go for it.
atomiczombie
06-17-2010, 02:44 PM
Hey Linus,
That fuckin' bites. I too have dilemmas about which bathroom to use, whether I should use the changing room/lockers at the gym, etc. I generally try to avoid having to make these choices as much as I can. Out in public places, I just hold it until I get home, and try to drink/eat as little as possible. I take my daughter to the movies sometimes and do this. I really hate it. The T I am on hasn't given me any effects except acne so far, but once I start getting the changes I want, that will complicate things further. I really don't know how I am going to handle that.
In September I am going to go on an Alaskan cruise with my parents and aunts and uncles. We sail out of Vancouver Canada. I am anxious about whether I will resemble my current passport photo enough for it not to be questioned. Things like this cross my mind and make me anxious. I tell myself not to worry, that I will cross that bridge when I get there, but that doesn't always help.
Anyhoo, *hug* bro. I hope you find a gym that is enlightened.
JustJo
06-17-2010, 02:49 PM
Hi Linus,
I can only imagine how challenging that would be...
I work in the fitness industry (with seniors) and know that many of the newer facilities (especially YMCAs) have "family" or "assisted" changing rooms...basically a single small room with lockers in a hallway area outside the room that can be used to secure your belongings.
It can be a bit of a hassle to wait for the space if you're there at a time when lots of families are using them, but it eliminates the "where do I go" problem. I used them alot when my son was 8 or 9. I just wasn't comfortable sending him into the men's locker room alone...and he was too old to be in the women's...so that was our best choice.
Best of luck with your fitness goals! :rrose:
Linus
06-17-2010, 03:00 PM
Hey Linus,
That fuckin' bites. I too have dilemmas about which bathroom to use, whether I should use the changing room/lockers at the gym, etc. I generally try to avoid having to make these choices as much as I can. Out in public places, I just hold it until I get home, and try to drink/eat as little as possible. I take my daughter to the movies sometimes and do this. I really hate it. The T I am on hasn't given me any effects except acne so far, but once I start getting the changes I want, that will complicate things further. I really don't know how I am going to handle that.
In September I am going to go on an Alaskan cruise with my parents and aunts and uncles. We sail out of Vancouver Canada. I am anxious about whether I will resemble my current passport photo enough for it not to be questioned. Things like this cross my mind and make me anxious. I tell myself not to worry, that I will cross that bridge when I get there, but that doesn't always help.
Anyhoo, *hug* bro. I hope you find a gym that is enlightened.
When I move to L.A., I may luck out with a gym on site or not have to worry as much about change rooms (since I want it to be within walking distance but we'll see).
As for passport, as an FYI, I look nothing like mine (the photo is pre-transition) and have never had issue with travel whether in the US or across the border back home. You should be ok.
i recently got a speeding ticket and was questioned by the state trooper about my DL :|
nothing to do with a rest room, just pisses me off
Rufusboi
06-17-2010, 06:08 PM
Hey Linus,
That fuckin' bites. I too have dilemmas about which bathroom to use, whether I should use the changing room/lockers at the gym, etc. I generally try to avoid having to make these choices as much as I can. Out in public places, I just hold it until I get home, and try to drink/eat as little as possible. I take my daughter to the movies sometimes and do this. I really hate it. The T I am on hasn't given me any effects except acne so far, but once I start getting the changes I want, that will complicate things further. I really don't know how I am going to handle that.
In September I am going to go on an Alaskan cruise with my parents and aunts and uncles. We sail out of Vancouver Canada. I am anxious about whether I will resemble my current passport photo enough for it not to be questioned. Things like this cross my mind and make me anxious. I tell myself not to worry, that I will cross that bridge when I get there, but that doesn't always help.
Anyhoo, *hug* bro. I hope you find a gym that is enlightened.
Atomic - The State Department just pasted a new law on June 10, 2010 stating you can change the gender on your passport with only a letter from your doctor stating you are transitioning. I have posted the link below:
http://birdofparadox.wordpress.com/2010/06/10/us-state-dept-announces-new-passport-rules-for-transgender-people/
Rufus
Thinker
06-17-2010, 08:49 PM
Most recently I had contacted a 24-hour gym to see which facilities I'd be asked to use. They said it would be whatever is on my official ID (which is still F). I somehow doubt that me -- full beard and all -- would be really welcomed in the women's change room.
I was at least pleased that they were honestly enough to reply to my email about this upfront but seriously, it's annoying to wonder at times. I like working out at gyms sometimes (especially spinning classes) but don't want to wait until I have surgery (part of the need to lose weight is in prep for surgery and general health).
Hey Linus...
Is there a reason you needed to ask the gym about this? Do they require you to show your ID?
Curious...
AtLast
06-17-2010, 09:03 PM
Bathrooms and changing rooms.... ARGH!! Make me nuts! LOL... love having a small RV van with my own damn head!
Linus- If you have a gym photo ID, I just can't see why they can't use it and you be able to go into the mens.
Do you have to show a driver's license? It has been so long since I have been a member in a gym, I can't remember what the ID is. Probably all different, anyway.
Good Luck!
Linus
06-17-2010, 09:07 PM
Bathrooms and changing rooms.... ARGH!! Make me nuts! LOL... love having a small RV van with my own damn head!
Linus- If you have a gym photo ID, I just can't see why they can't use it and you be able to go into the mens.
Do you have to show a driver's license? It has been so long since I have been a member in a gym, I can't remember what the ID is. Probably all different, anyway.
Good Luck!
It's the ID to register with the gym that they use. Since I only have passport and it has my original gender on it.
Logicaly
06-17-2010, 09:56 PM
I avoid public restrooms if at all possible unless I know its a place where I wont have any issues. Its very akward for me, because there has been times where I have been stopped by other men from going into the womens restroom, or where women second guess themselves, or stare at me, for using the womens room.
I don't like akward. I just want to get in, do my business and get out. And at work, its even more akward, because I have to use the womens room, cause the owner would probably freak if I used the mens room. The women go in there and chit chat and stuff, and I just want to go in there and take care of business, not talk about my day....
So I always try to wait until I get home if at all possible. In public, I make my girlfriend go in with me, I have found that if I do it that way, for the womens room, that I get a lot less uncomfortable looks that way.
I ran across this interview today. I remember when Khadijah Farmer hit the news because she got kicked out of a women's room by a bouncer during pride in 2007 in the middle of Greenwich Village. She did win a settlement in 2008. AND she was asked to pay the bill even though she'd never been given the food she'd ordered.
DQ_UMm8KEUI
9Tz9LBOj7qc
KvCZphWHgTY
She won $35k plus (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/14/nyregion/14gender.html?bl&ex=1210910400&en=4350a6cfda5b8c73&ei=5087%0A)
Among the workplace practices that Caliente Cab agreed to adopt in the settlement was to add gender identity and expression to its corporate nondiscrimination policy; to adopt a gender-neutral dress code for its employees; and to amend its employee handbook to state “persons patronizing or employed at Caliente have the right to use the bathroom facilities consistent with their gender identity and expression.”
Linus
06-22-2010, 03:05 AM
Among the workplace practices that Caliente Cab agreed to adopt in the settlement was to add gender identity and expression to its corporate nondiscrimination policy; to adopt a gender-neutral dress code for its employees; and to amend its employee handbook to state “persons patronizing or employed at Caliente have the right to use the bathroom facilities consistent with their gender identity and expression.”
That's actually a law in NYC, I believe. I actually have a card from the Gender Identity Project meetings which I carry around (not as much an issue today but when I was first transitioning I held on to it for dear life). The Caliente case was particularly annoying since they get their business from the LGBTQ community (as in, it was one of our own). I think that's what caused the biggest ruckus about all this.
That's actually a law in NYC, I believe. I actually have a card from the Gender Identity Project meetings which I carry around (not as much an issue today but when I was first transitioning I held on to it for dear life). The Caliente case was particularly annoying since they get their business from the LGBTQ community (as in, it was one of our own). I think that's what caused the biggest ruckus about all this.
It sucks that a card would have been necessary, but that doesn't sound like a bad way to carry around at least a little back-up if things really escalated in that sort of situation.
I remember a few years back, Rainbow Cattle Company (gay bar) in Austin put these signs on the doors of their bathrooms insisting that only men use the men's room and only women use the women's room, and it did seem especially awful that it was "family" who decided to implement this policy and that they seemed to have no understanding of gender variance. That bar is closed now, and I don't know if others in Austin have similar policies.
My super-Christian conservative Texan-small-town workplace has a new member of it's cleaning staff - who happens to be - (okay, I know it's wrong to assume) - appears to be a butch.
What so totally rocks about this is the fact that there is often a masculine woman in the bathroom when I walk in. Which means the hundreds of women who work in my cubicle-land may have the opportunity to lose their startle response in the butch bathroom encounter. At least that's what I hope. :)
chefhmboyrd
08-04-2010, 10:17 AM
i am fortunate to look like i do. i just go where i fuck well please and do what the hell i want and nobody says shit to me.:thinking:
i TOLD the people at the gym that i would be using the men's locker room.
i haven't used a women's facilty for years, even before the T, because i would get funny looks, and i have never even gotten a second glance in a men's room, except at Play, and he was definitely cruising me.:blink:
@
i am fortunate to look like i do. i just go where i fuck well please and do what the hell i want and nobody says shit to me.:thinking:
i TOLD the people at the gym that i would be using the men's locker room.
i haven't used a women's facilty for years, even before the T, because i would get funny looks, and i have never even gotten a second glance in a men's room, except at Play, and he was definitely cruising me.:blink:
@
sure as hell sounds like you're real tough.
The_Lady_Snow
09-08-2010, 09:42 AM
Why Bathrooms Are a Civil Rights Issue (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carlos-a-ball/why-bathrooms-are-a-civil_b_707376.html)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carlos-a-ball/why-bathrooms-are-a-civil_b_707376.html
http://transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/PIP%20Resource%20Guide.pdf
ravfem
09-08-2010, 12:25 PM
A short snippet from the TLC Restroom Resource Guide Mike posted:
Strategy #2: Confidence
Using gender segregated bathrooms may be nerve-wracking at times but it is important that you realize you have a right to be there, no maer how other people react to you. You belong in the bathroom that makes you feel most comfortable as much as anyone else does. Being confident lets other people know that as well.
If you are feeling nervous when entering a bathroom, take a deep breath and remind yourself that there’s nothing wrong with you and that you have the right to be there as much as anyone else does. If necessary, keep taking deep breaths and repeat the phrase, “I belong here” in your mind while you are in
the bathroom.
MrSunshine
09-08-2010, 12:41 PM
A short snippet from the TLC Restroom Resource Guide Mike posted:
Strategy #2: Confidence
Using gender segregated bathrooms may be nerve-wracking at times but it is important that you realize you have a right to be there, no maer how other people react to you. You belong in the bathroom that makes you feel most comfortable as much as anyone else does. Being confident lets other people know that as well.
If you are feeling nervous when entering a bathroom, take a deep breath and remind yourself that there’s nothing wrong with you and that you have the right to be there as much as anyone else does. If necessary, keep taking deep breaths and repeat the phrase, “I belong here” in your mind while you are in
the bathroom.
There are parts of this I really do like. However, have you ever tried walking into a bathroom with hardly any hair/masculine features/non shaved legs if in shorts etc...?
I could have (which I thankfully do not) a big O flappin vagina hangin out and still catch shit. (okay, that didn't sound right) Not just from women but from men who may be waiting outside for their daughters.
The last time this happened an elderly woman gasp and said "you are in the wrong place"! I simply told her "I've been touching this thing for 45 years, I know where I belong" she winked, apologized and kept steppin.
The man was stupid enough to put his hand on me as if to stop me. He may or may not recover that testicle.
ravfem
09-08-2010, 12:53 PM
Well, since i only shave my legs on Saturdays, does that count as "non-shaved legs"? :giggle:
Seriously, i've never had to face any sort of bathroom issue personally. my previous relationships have been with masculine butches and a transguy, so i have seen what they go through on a daily basis.
i promise i wasn't trying to tell people how to behave or anything of that sort. i just thought that the guide was very well written, and this particular point stood out.
(and um...i'm kinda glad you don't have *anything* hanging out...i'd have to laugh if ya did!)
There are parts of this I really do like. However, have you ever tried walking into a bathroom with hardly any hair/masculine features/non shaved legs if in shorts etc...?
I could have (which I thankfully do not) a big O flappin vagina hangin out and still catch shit. (okay, that didn't sound right) Not just from women but from men who may be waiting outside for their daughters.
The last time this happened an elderly woman gasp and said "you are in the wrong place"! I simply told her "I've been touching this thing for 45 years, I know where I belong" she winked, apologized and kept steppin.
The man was stupid enough to put his hand on me as if to stop me. He may or may not recover that testicle.
EnderD_503
09-09-2010, 07:09 AM
I realise there are not many Torontonians around these parts, but thought I'd share the link in case a few happen to trickle in. For those it might be useful for who weren't aware before (just found this myself as a new student there), the University of Toronto has gender neutral washrooms spread out around its various campuses, particularly St. George campus in the downtown core. Here is a compiled list of all the gender neutral washrooms on campus: http://www.sgdo.utoronto.ca/washrooms/Locations.htm
I've noticed a few restaurants/coffee shops in the area like Tim Horton's across from the varsity field has single-user washrooms as well that don't require you get a key from the counter to use.
Glenn
09-09-2010, 09:57 AM
I'm designing a house built for 100+ toilets only. One area is gender neutral, and another area has round circles for some folks who want to watch each other.
My super-Christian conservative Texan-small-town workplace has a new member of it's cleaning staff - who happens to be - (okay, I know it's wrong to assume) - appears to be a butch.
What so totally rocks about this is the fact that there is often a masculine woman in the bathroom when I walk in. Which means the hundreds of women who work in my cubicle-land may have the opportunity to lose their startle response in the butch bathroom encounter. At least that's what I hope. :)
The bathroom butch is already gone. I asked another member of the cleaning staff and he said he didn't know anything except that she's gone.
I realise there are not many Torontonians around these parts, but thought I'd share the link in case a few happen to trickle in. For those it might be useful for who weren't aware before (just found this myself as a new student there), the University of Toronto has gender neutral washrooms spread out around its various campuses, particularly St. George campus in the downtown core. Here is a compiled list of all the gender neutral washrooms on campus: http://www.sgdo.utoronto.ca/washrooms/Locations.htm
I've noticed a few restaurants/coffee shops in the area like Tim Horton's across from the varsity field has single-user washrooms as well that don't require you get a key from the counter to use.
This site also appears useful -
http://safe2pee.org/
ComparedToWhom
09-21-2010, 01:49 AM
Interesting article: URINARY SEGREGATION (http://chronicle.com/blogPost/Urinary-Segregation/26974/)
Thoughts anyone?
CTW
EnderD_503
09-21-2010, 06:45 AM
Interesting article: URINARY SEGREGATION (http://chronicle.com/blogPost/Urinary-Segregation/26974/)
Thoughts anyone?
CTW
Unless they are single user washrooms, I'm not sure a multi-user gender neutral washroom would work, and I would think there are safety concerns which the author didn't address as I would have (the author put it down to the "purity of white femininity," which I really don't undersand, unless the USA really is that different from Canada). The issue of bathrooms at home not being segregated by gender only works if we're talking single user washrooms. I think gender neutral multi user washrooms would only work if we started putting security guards inside public washrooms, personally. Not all users or even most users would commit any wrong against another person, but those who are more inclined to do so will have a much easier time of it.
MysticOceansFL
09-21-2010, 07:48 AM
The only thing I can think of is when your in trans as in waiting to go through the operation there should be change of Driver's lic's stating that your male if your FTM and a woman if your MTF because it would be less bother somes for people who are trans why doesnt the system help out? Its not hurting anyone and second some places should have unisex bathrooms just for that reason and not leave anyone out! Just an idea!
Glenn
09-28-2010, 10:26 AM
[/SIZE][/FONT]
My brain has been boiling about this issue. Now .. I have designed the perfect corporate unisex restroom/lounge, whereby folks can retain their dignity. I must say..I've really overdone myself and broken all barriers.. I can tell you this is really fancy with modern tables and chairs doubling as toilets surrounded by high partitions and a security guard.
The_Lady_Snow
09-28-2010, 11:09 AM
When I take a shit.
I personally don't want no kinda guy in there.
Queer or not a girl likes to do her shitting
in comfort and private.
That's just me though
Apocalipstic
09-28-2010, 12:46 PM
Me, I don't care.
And in my experience men don't care. In fact, men don't really look at each other going to the bathroom, so when I am in a hurry I use the Men's room and I look nothing like a man.
Some Women have a fit though. I soooooo sosososososo want Cynthia to go to the Women's room with me, so I can tell someone off.. I am eat up with excitement over it...but she insists on just using the men's room.
UGH.
ravfem
09-28-2010, 12:51 PM
When I take a shit.
I personally don't want no kinda guy in there.
Queer or not a girl likes to do her shitting
in comfort and private.
That's just me though
:giggle: i love your candor!
This is why i personally think all bathrooms should be a one stall, one person at a time, locking door room!
Apocalipstic
09-28-2010, 12:54 PM
:giggle: i love your candor!
This is why i personally think all bathrooms should be a one stall, one person at a time, locking door room!
I prefer this too!
EnderD_503
09-28-2010, 02:38 PM
Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.
There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.
I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.
The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?
We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?
Apocalipstic
09-28-2010, 03:40 PM
Reading through some of the more recent post, I agree and do think it is the women's washroom that become's the biggest issue more often than the men's washroom, and I think it does because of a number of issues. Thinking back to the article ComparedtoWhom posted, I think I agree less and less with the reasoning the author gave regarding women's disaproval of multi user gender neutral washrooms.
There is the issue of security, but I think that perhaps this issue has changed somewhat with the nature of 21st century western (thinking Western/Central/North Western European, Canadian, American, Australian) society. I think that in most cases, if there were a genuine fear regarding security there would be, generally, less mockery and more fear/outrage at the presence of a masculine presenting/male appearing individual in the women's washroom. But in most cases, as many of us have witnessed at some point in life, mockery is all that we're faced with. So how do we address security versus intolerance toward unorthodox gender identity.
I think, at least where I live, there are the issues added by the multicultural nature of western society. The area that I work in is inhabited by an African and Arab Muslim majority, and depending on the region/nation from which they come, as well as the sect to which they adhere, dress code and the division between male/female spaces is very important to them. The concern and response of a Somalian Muslim woman to a male/masculine presence in a women's washroom is quite different from someone of a non-religious (or even Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox) background who has spent the majority of their life in Canada.
The problem is, the bathroom issue does not just pertain to trans guys and other male or transgender identities, but to other butches who identify as a female or woman or simply not male or transgender who just may not want to or feel the need to use the men's washroom. At that point we get a kind of culture clash, especially in a nation that identifies itself as a mosaic where all cultures are retained. There are trans guys or other male identities who have no issue using the men's washroom because they identify as male whether intending to undergo what is deemed as "transition" or not (where the eventual aim is to be understood as male 100% of the time), or perhaps they are transgender and also have no qualms in using the men's washroom. But what of those who still identify as female/women/generally not male who reserve their right to use the women's washroom on the basis that they are born and continue to live as biological females, despite being butch/masculine identified/presenting?
We've come very far in many western nations when it comes to human/individual rights, but as the multicultural nature of the west continues to expand, how does one cross these bridges?
I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!
I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.
bright_arrow
09-28-2010, 03:41 PM
When boi and I are out and about, I go with. I can't say I notice anyone giving hym looks but then again I walk ahead of hym and engage hym in conversation (hy may look masculine but hy doesn't sound it) while we walk in. When we're coming home from Jersey hy's often still in uniform so no one really takes a second look.
I guess the way I see it is there is nothing keeping a man out of the women's restroom if he was determined to come in, not really. I assume when I see someone resembling a female appearance that they have every right to be in the restroom, and frankly, I don't care. As long as you're not trying to share my stall with me, go for it!
:praying:
SuperFemme
09-28-2010, 04:07 PM
i make the person i am married to go to the garage.
so i can use the facilities.
yanno?
somethings i need to do alone.
my utopia are those "family" bathrooms.
one room, door locks, and nobody is listening to how you you pee. or worse....
bright_arrow
09-28-2010, 04:13 PM
ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now :)
SuperFemme
09-28-2010, 04:16 PM
ETA: Apologies, I didn't realize the thread category I was in, my .02 doesn't quite apply now :)
don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?
I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.
They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.
it's a big issue. :)
bright_arrow
09-28-2010, 04:20 PM
don't you find your voice as SOFFA has a place here?
I am stting in hospital right now so I am not getting too deep.
They ways I have had my personal safefty compromised by doing my human shield act are pretty awful.
it's a big issue. :)
When you put it that way, you have a point, I just didn't want to derail or offend being in the 'wrong' thread as my partner is butch-id'd, that's all.
~ desd, aka soothesayer/peacekeeper
EnderD_503
09-28-2010, 04:20 PM
I think it still does have so much to do with security in my area. Women are very careful and honestly, how many horror films have scary bathroom scenes!
I get wanting to use the Women's bathroom to make a point, or becasue it is cleaner, but I sincerely think it safer to use the Men's room when in question. Men do not look at each other, especially in the bathroom unless they have ulterior motives.
I think I didn't express myself entirely in the clearest way possible. I definitely agree with you that security is still an issue, but I'm not sure that it being an issue is why so many butches and masculine females/women etc. have trouble in women's washrooms.
For example, I remember on the b-f site a while back there was a discussion concerning the bathroom issue. One poster had made a complaint about how they'd been treated in a women's changeroom and how there shouldn't be any such issues (or something like that, my memory's foggy). I remember posting a response about the security, and another poster (I think maybe JustJo? Lemme know if I'm off base here) gave an example of a client of her's reaction when a very masculine butch entered the change room. If I recall correctly, the response from the client was genuine shock because she really thought a man had entered the changeroom. But that is not the response many women give when they see a masculine biological female enter a washroom/changeroom/what have you. More often than not they know the person is in the right bathroom according to biological sex, but choose to make some kind of snide remark, make a big deal and bring a security guard into the situation for the sake of humiliating the individual, or generally engage in some kind of mockery. They do not express shock or fear because they don't actually fear for their own safety. They just want to ridicule the individual.
Also, I agree the men's washroom is a safer bet and personally don't have a qualm with what you suggest since I prefer to be there, but I understand that others do not. I can understand the point some butches who do not identify as male would make, that they have just as much a right to be there as any other female/woman. With regard to encouraging progressive thought as far as sex and gender, should they not continue to use the women's washroom even if other women do not approve of their gender identity? Should it not be used as an instance of practice what you preach, so to speak? Am I making any sense?
theoddz
09-28-2010, 04:33 PM
Adele, I too am a "family bathroom" enthusiast. I promise, that if you and Cal should come to visit at Casa Theo, you will have your very own "privy room". One room, one door, one lock. :winky:
----------------------------------
That said.....
Before T, and before I began to pass 100% of the time, I had the most horrible anxiety about using a public restroom. I'd hold it and wait until I got home, even if it meant having to drive across town to my home. Many, MANY times....more than I can count, had I (prior to transition) been called down, usually by XY males for heading in to the ladies' room. It was always....always....a nervous, angsty experience for me.
Now, I must say this. I've been out with a couple of fabulous and fiercely protective Femmes....some from this site, and they have done a *fabulous* job of running interference for me while I dashed into a Ladies' room to pee when I just couldn't hold it any longer. Let me tell you....a guy couldn't ask for a more stalwart, fearless ally than those beautiful women who had my back in these situations. I'm sure my bladder has escaped irreparable damage through the good graces and formidable courage of these lovely Ladies!!! G-d love you Ladies, one and all, for standing up for us and letting us and our potential harassers/adversaries know that they were going to be a force to reckon with, if anyone dared to harass us for our gender presentation. :winky::heartbeat:
I've seen so many posts here on this web site, and on the others, from non trans folks who want to congratulate us transfolk for our "courage" in walking the world the way we do, but let me tell you....and this is speaking from my heart about my past, that having good allies who aren't afraid to step forward and "have our backs" made all the difference to this guy.
I knew from the day I read Medusa's "Ode To The Butches" that I was finally home with this community and that there were others who not only understood but would advocate (and celebrate) guys/people like me who never fit in anywhere else and live outside of gender "norms".
A person can never know what small thing will touch another's life in a most profound way. Finding this community touched mine. Oh, and 'Dusa??? If you read this, THANK YOU....again. :winky::heartbeat:
~Theo~ :bouquet:.....lovin' on our allies. :clap:
Ryobi
09-29-2010, 12:23 AM
I'm sure everyone knows the song, "Dream Police" by Cheap Trick. I have changed a few words to the start and sing it at work all the time. Everyone knows when I have to pee.
"The Pee Police, they're always lookin at me.
The Pee Police, they wanna know how I pee."
This came about when I was outed at work by "friends"/co workers. (everyone knew I'm queer. They didn't know what kind of queer because, I had just actualized it myself. And to make knives bigger, I got these 2 "friends"/assholes their job. Another story, another thread.) Anyway,
When this happened, I started to notice that a few people were watching what bathroom I went into. So, because of my love to fuck with people, I started using whichever one was closest. They acted like they would know everything about me just by which bathroom I used. At one venue, this got somewhat heated because we can only use the locker rooms. This meant that a lot more people than just my co-workers used these restrooms. Long story short, I now have access to the unisex bathroom by the Mgt. offices. I didn't ask for it but, I do use it. One of the upper ups talked to me about the situation, then gave me that access. He's cool and very understanding. At another venue I work at, there are unisex bathrooms except for the dressing rooms. A mix of uni and not through out the building. When I have to pee there, a few of the guys are still hung up about the bathroom situation. (5 frickin years later) I of course, use the unisex ones, on a break, with a bunch of people around. In the last 5 years, I have never exited one of those bathrooms without leaving the seat up. No matter what I do while I'm in there, I make sure the seat is up when I leave. (no urinals, just a toilet and sink) The ignorant are confused. The informed are amused. (I do talk with people about TG issues. Most I work with are cool about it. Some are at least educated enough to be respectful. A few will always not care to be human.)
The Pee Police, they're always lookin at me.
The Pee Police, they wanna know how I pee.
Oh, I too love the family or uni bathrooms. More and more places here have them. And, if I can help it, I'll hold it until I get home if one of those isn't available.
Glenn
09-29-2010, 09:14 PM
[QUOTE=Ryobi;199930] I have never exited one of those bathrooms without leaving the seat up. No matter what I do while I'm in there, I make sure the seat is up when I leave. (no urinals, just a toilet and sink)
But why? (Here's another issue) Would'nt the females prefer the seat down lol?:vigil: The wave of the future in public and corporate bathroom design seems to be moving in the direction of doorless stalls, and wider and deeper walls. We're trying to open them up to appease the pee police :(
A good friend of mine, Blake, gave me permission to re-post his writing (http://blakesebastian.wordpress.com) here. It's a familiar story within this community, and well-written/well-told. Bonus: When I asked for that permission, he not only agreed but he checked out the site and decided to join. :)
Anyway, here it is:
The Wrong Bathroom
On Tuesday afternoon, I carried a bladder full to capacity all the way across campus.
Every out of the way restroom door I might have breezed through in various buildings along the way seemed to be plagued with an interchangeable gaggle of young women– lingering, laughing together, blocking the way in their jeggings, oversized hoodies and Ugg boots. It didn’t matter because I had a purpose, one that led me seemingly on its own accord to a building where I knew I could work in silence for hours on end. And my head was full, its wheels turning in motion only to the massive assigned project at hand; the soundtrack of this was the aural confection of New Order; I felt so extraordinary, something had a hold of me; and this in combination seemed to outweigh my full, weighty bladder.
I often wait until it’s unbearable. Going to the bathroom is quite a chore.
I’d finally made it to the quiet building when it was a force I could no longer ignore. I did as I always do, looked at the floor and swiftly pushed through the door, continued to look at the floor, only at the floor, and found the nearest stall, earphones still pulsing loud with the full wonders of the synthesizer. To my great relief, it seemed I was all alone in the bathroom. I wouldn’t have to wait for some woman to take all the time in the world washing her hands and checking herself in the mirror to wash my own hands and get the hell out. I wouldn’t get the timing wrong and cause some poor girl to jump at the sight of me. No one came in the whole time. I almost felt comfortable. I washed my hands all alone in the vast bathroom with its long row of stalls. I even had time to check myself in the mirror and turned off my mp3 player because now that that great concern was over with, it was time to get to work on my project.
I pushed my way through the door and was met face to face with a maintenance man carrying a gigantic walkie-talkie. I stood arrested, not only because he was blocking my way, but because it was so unexpected. This gave him a few seconds to examine me, turn his head to the right, and shout to a woman across the great expanse of the building, “(Woman’s wholly unmemorable name), it’s not what you think!” as he stepped back and let me pass. “You can never be too sure!” shouted the woman in response. Neither one of them addressed me directly at all.
I was left to figure out what had just happened, which of course was realized immediately. And what’s funny is I didn’t have the shame to leave the building. I went specifically to that building to do my work because it was an ideal place to do so. And I wasn’t going to leave just because something embarrassing had just happened.
I couldn’t have sat in a more visible place either. I was right out in the open with my laptop open and books spread out all over the table. Right out in the open for the same maintenance man to walk by and smirk at several times during my lengthy stay and none of this caused me the slightest inkling of shame. I just thought it was funny.
I giggled to myself internally about it all afternoon. Especially that “it’s not what you think!” business. I know he meant that the circumstance was not what she thought. “It” was not why she ordered that he barricade the door with his leathery, broad-shouldered brawn. But it was, essentially, also the person. “It” was me; I was the circumstance; I am an “it”.
But also, the thought that a big man, by the looks of it the biggest at hand, would have to block the entrance, to protect women from a supposed rapist madman, this was all particularly funny. What did they think would happen? I could have laughed about it for days.
This wasn’t the first time a blockade has been set up on campus, an effort to protect women from entering a bathroom I’d walked into quickly devised. My first semester, I attempted to leave another similarly barren bathroom and realized with the swing of the door I’d pushed several large garbage cans out of my way. And then I saw the line of young women waiting to use the bathroom who were all laughing at me as I walked past the professor who without a doubt had instituted the whole charade. I looked down and continued to walk as she shouted helplessly, “Stop right there! I can see you! I know what you look like!” and the laughter grew louder. Unfortunately I was only traveling less than a hundred feet away to my next class and clearly entered that door, a door to an auditorium-style room, where more than 200 students attended. This was the same class that all of the women forced to wait in line would certainly also travel to after being permitted to simply use the bathroom.
I took my usual seat in the very back left corner and wondered if I was in trouble, if someone was going to come find me and drag me from the room. And I also imagined that professor hauling all of those garbage cans from various points in the hall in front of the door. What an endeavor. And so fast! And she must have told all of those waiting girls that there was a rapist madman inside and they had to wait. Why hadn’t I heard all of that commotion? All I wanted to do was pee.
I have been giving a lot of thought to errors in my thinking. Errors that seem so clear when they are discovered, but that have gone on for so long I no longer recognize them as dense gauze over my perception. My therapist has done wonders for hacking through it.
I mentioned to him that a woman I have collaborated with on several group projects said she’d tried to find me on Facebook. I dismissed her obvious angling coldly. “It’s under a weird name” I said quickly and then changed the subject. I know this hurt her a bit. Her whole mood became less friendly and I caused that. And my reason was because she would look through my photos, my weird posts, and it was all so uncomfortably transparent. I was not ready to share that with someone I barely knew, who I will have to continue to work with. “But…” my therapist stopped me, “She interacts with you daily. And I have news for you, Blake. You are not hiding anything. She knows who you are just by looking at you. And she accepts it. Wanting to extend her friendship to you in that way was a way of saying she accepts you and is curious to know more about you.”
Why should I have a full blown epiphany at a statement like that? It makes so much goddamned sense.
And the same phenomenon extends with public bathrooms. Obviously I cause problems in the women’s room. The reason I still use them is because of the small population of students and professors who know my given name and know I am female. If I used the men’s room and someone knew I was not technically male, then what would happen? And then I realize I have already seen close to the worst of what can happen, save physical violence Thank God, if you use the wrong bathroom.
princessbelle
03-10-2011, 08:31 AM
I've sat and read some of the posts in here this morning. One thing keeps coming back to me as i read this and it is of my own emotion and that is anger.
I, like many here, been with a few trans/Ftm/butch guys/girls over the years when they were going to use the bathroom and when they clearly had held it so long their eyes were watering and i've also witnessed what they go through as many have. The looks, glares, the uncomfortable air that you could cut with a knife, the awkwardness of me needing to check it out first to see if anyone was in there before they entered, the walking out swiftly so that maybe they would not be noticed with their eyes to the floor.
I can't help but get protective and angry and more times than not say something like "mind your own buisness or "what are you staring at" ect. I think, for me, if they would just look away or ignor the situation i would be ok, but it's like they all want to be confrontational with "us/them".
Usually, who i'm with will just shhh'sh me and says "don't worry about it", "drop it". But, it is hard for me to see this happen and not open my mouth to stand up for "your" rights as a human being.
I was just curious.....from femmes and to the ones that it happens to, how do you get past the anger and wanting to rip out someone's hair when they give your friend or yourself a look of disgust, cause quite honestly, i gotta get a grip on it. It just makes me so mad i wanna scream and stand in front of "whoever" and shout "how dare you give anyone a look like that, you have no clue who he/she is".
Ya know?
girl_dee
03-10-2011, 09:07 AM
@ Belle.... Yes I know!
DomnNC
03-10-2011, 11:06 AM
Bathrooms, they can be a fun lil trip if you let them. I don't look down at the floor, I go in like I own the damn place (doesn't matter which one I choose to use and I always choose the one that I can pee at the quickest cuz when ya gotta go, ya gotta go). But if one stands there gawking I have a couple little sayings via my dearly departed as she would be quick to say it if I didn't get there first (even tho I don't identify this way, chuckles).
To the women:
Honey, I'm more fucking woman than you'll ever be and more man that you'll ever fucking have.
To the men:
Dude, I'm more fucking woman than you'll ever have and more man than you'll ever fucking be.
Then I or my wife would offer to take a pic with our cell phone and offer to email/snail mail it to them.
It generally shut them the hell up right quick and made them look elsewhere.
The_Lady_Snow
03-10-2011, 11:14 AM
Snickles, here's how I deal with stares period.
"Mind your business!"
"STOP staring didn't your mom tell you it's rude"
"Yes, we're a biracial couple now EAT YOUR MEAL"
We don't walk around scared, we walk in like we own the joint.
PS
Loud questions deflect the attention back on them
girl_dee
03-10-2011, 11:35 AM
I agree... I don't mind teaching the general public a thing when I can! I love walking in the washroom with my Butch!
princessbelle
03-10-2011, 11:48 AM
I agree with you all. That is what i do too. I was asking am i over reacting? Taking it upon myself to be a princesswhitehorseinshiningarmour or am i making the situation worse, which has been said to me, when i do lash out. Was just wondering if maybe i take things too far because i always say something when i see it happen. Because i CANT seem to keep my anger intact.
I know everyone handles the situation like they think they should. I guess i'll just keep saying what i feel like. Apparently, i'm not alone. :vigil:
lol.
SelfMadeMan
03-10-2011, 12:07 PM
I used the men's room for two years or so, prior to transitioning just because I *wanted* to. I walked in with my head held high even though I didn't pass 100%. When a men's restroom was unavailable/occupied I went into the women's room, head held high and stared back at anyone who stared at me. I used whichever room *I* chose, regardless of what anyone else thought... just my .02. I'm not suggesting others are wrong for not handling it this way, and I know for some, it isn't so easy... so please don't think I'm passing any judgements :-)
BullDog
03-10-2011, 12:16 PM
Sometimes it is people being rude and sometimes there can be genuine fear or uneasiness if a woman sees someone they read as male being in a place they are not expecting. So I think you have to keep both things in mind. I am usually not bothered, but if someone looks unsure I just try to smile and put them at ease.
AtLast
03-10-2011, 02:31 PM
Confession-
I really like going into a woman's restroom with a femme.
I've sat and read some of the posts in here this morning. One thing keeps coming back to me as i read this and it is of my own emotion and that is anger.
I, like many here, been with a few trans/Ftm/butch guys/girls over the years when they were going to use the bathroom and when they clearly had held it so long their eyes were watering and i've also witnessed what they go through as many have. The looks, glares, the uncomfortable air that you could cut with a knife, the awkwardness of me needing to check it out first to see if anyone was in there before they entered, the walking out swiftly so that maybe they would not be noticed with their eyes to the floor.
I can't help but get protective and angry and more times than not say something like "mind your own buisness or "what are you staring at" ect. I think, for me, if they would just look away or ignor the situation i would be ok, but it's like they all want to be confrontational with "us/them".
Usually, who i'm with will just shhh'sh me and says "don't worry about it", "drop it". But, it is hard for me to see this happen and not open my mouth to stand up for "your" rights as a human being.
I was just curious.....from femmes and to the ones that it happens to, how do you get past the anger and wanting to rip out someone's hair when they give your friend or yourself a look of disgust, cause quite honestly, i gotta get a grip on it. It just makes me so mad i wanna scream and stand in front of "whoever" and shout "how dare you give anyone a look like that, you have no clue who he/she is".
Ya know?
Christie manages to always overhear the remarks made about me regarding "what is that? is this the right restroom?" etc and if I am out of ear shot will give them a bit of "education" that only a proud 6 ft redhead southern femme lady can give. When I happen to catch something on the tune of "now, ya'll go fuck yer precious little bigot selves now ya hear" rolling of those sweet lips, I admit, it does make my heart get big.
The_Lady_Snow
03-10-2011, 04:08 PM
Ah see Snickles Grant only uses the mens room, when he "he has to" I usually call him honey so they at least know we're queer. His safety factor plays into how I react. Virginia has been the worse experience in our travels. I use gay mens restrooms but only if I am known at the establishment. Now... If I'm hanging out with butch buddies and they use the correct restrooms then I'm ok with saying
"hey back off it's a woman no different than you"
I've found women to converse more than guys and will listen in restroom situations.
christie
03-10-2011, 09:34 PM
I agree with you all. That is what i do too. I was asking am i over reacting? Taking it upon myself to be a princesswhitehorseinshiningarmour or am i making the situation worse, which has been said to me, when i do lash out. Was just wondering if maybe i take things too far because i always say something when i see it happen. Because i CANT seem to keep my anger intact.
I know everyone handles the situation like they think they should. I guess i'll just keep saying what i feel like. Apparently, i'm not alone. :vigil:
lol.
I dont think you are overreacting - I think our reactions are equal to the reactions we are seeing...
That said - I have found that a "Oh hell honey, show 'em yer tits" or any other "shock value" retort usually results in the gaping mouthed offender finding a hasty exit. :byebye:
Ah see Snickles Grant only uses the mens room, when he "he has to" I usually call him honey so they at least know we're queer. His safety factor plays into how I react. Virginia has been the worse experience in our travels. I use gay mens restrooms but only if I am known at the establishment. Now... If I'm hanging out with butch buddies and they use the correct restrooms then I'm ok with saying
"hey back off it's a woman no different than you"
I've found women to converse more than guys and will listen in restroom situations.
I agree, women will prolly converse more than men in a public restroom. Too many assumptions of "tea-room" if men do anything more than nod in passing. They don't make small talk in bathrooms. Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question "ANY"one who just needs to relieve themselves.
I mean really.. it's not like a destination, afterall.. it's literally a Piss-stop.
I've used men's rooms/ womens rooms/ unisex and honestly I hate having to use any. I like to piss at home in my bathroom where it's clean. Do not expect much of an apology when I am not visiting.. I am simply dumping and movin on. It ain't like we gotta be friends. LOL
betenoire
03-10-2011, 09:58 PM
innate insecurity?
I get that I'm being off-topic now, but I just can't not.
Please don't say that women are innately insecure. It makes me feel icky. We're not born insecure. In the event that a woman -is- insecure, it's socialised.
I mean, really. Which chromosome is insecurity attached to?
(Maybe men are insecure. Maybe the reason that they don't talk in bathrooms is because they're worried that people will think they're trying to pick up.)
Now, as for women being more likely to question who is around them in a bathroom situation...you gotta admit that the condition of the world around us necessitates us needing to be aware of our environments for the sake of our own safety. Again, that's not innate. That's a direct response to how fucking dangerous being a woman can sometimes be.
Turtle
03-10-2011, 11:16 PM
Yeah, so I don't like to derail threads AND
"Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question " is just too WTF?
And then it kills the thread/discussion because - believe it or not - there are lots of people out here who don't like to "have words." So,
************************************************** ************************************************** *********************************
Bathrooms - can be tricky and downright painful.
I've been in situations where transmen ID each other and one asks the other if there is a safer bathroom in the place and I'm told that most of the bathrooms in Alaska are "family" bathrooms.
Locker rooms in a club are a bigger problem. Maybe the "family" bathroom, with a changing table and specifically, more space would due for a private changing room, if there is an issue.
Admin
03-11-2011, 12:34 AM
I agree, women will prolly converse more than men in a public restroom. Too many assumptions of "tea-room" if men do anything more than nod in passing. They don't make small talk in bathrooms. Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question "ANY"one who just needs to relieve themselves.
I mean really.. it's not like a destination, afterall.. it's literally a Piss-stop.
I've used men's rooms/ womens rooms/ unisex and honestly I hate having to use any. I like to piss at home in my bathroom where it's clean. Do not expect much of an apology when I am not visiting.. I am simply dumping and movin on. It ain't like we gotta be friends. LOL
Jess,
This post was reported for sexist statements and is highly problematic on a site that is woman-positive. Sexist statements are against the TOS because we are trying to promote a positive environment for women, female-people, and allies.
Women are no more "innately" insecure than men, and statements like the above only serve to support gross and false stereotypes against women.
Thanks,
Admin
BullDog
03-11-2011, 01:25 AM
I just finished re-reading the first few pages of this thread. Many of the incidents do appear to be more about mocking the person rather than genuine fear. However the genuine fear still exists and the threat of violence for women at the hands of men is very real.
This is a perfect example where women, butches (women/female, male) and trans women and men are all being subjected to sexism- sometimes reinforcing it, sometimes being made unwelcome or the victim or it, sometimes maybe both at the same time. Men may also go into protective mode to enforce it- there may be instances when it is a good thing for men to step up and others where it is not.
Women upholding the binary are not really doing themselves any favors- it just reinforces sexism for all of us and doesn't give women any more freedoms or higher status in a sexist world. I maintain that heterosexual women would experience more freedom if butch women were recognized as legitimate women, and that I would experience more freedom to be who I am if heterosexual women were not put into little boxes. Obviously there has been some progress here. It expands the possibilities for everyone. The same is true for other genders. It expands the possibilities of who someone can be and how they can express themselves and would take a lot of the burden away from having to reinforce gender in such confined and constrained ways. However when it comes to the bathroom issue this would also need to address violence against women as well as gender stereotypes.
The root of misogyny, homophobia and transphobia is sexism. The anxiety and uneasiness about those who don't fit neatly into the man/woman boxes can manifest itself in many ways. Some will be subjected to more unfair treatment depending on the situation, but there really are no "winners" here. That's why I say transphobia and homophobia will never be wiped out with sexism and misogyny still in place and women being second class citizens all over the world.
I still maintain masculine looking people do need to tread gently and smile when at all possible, but we certainly have the right to pee and be safe as well. I think holding your head high is also a good thing if it is safe to do so.
I sincerely did not intend for my statement to sound sexist. I am one of those folks who does "get it" that when I walk into a "ladies" room I am often not seen as someone who should be there.
I don't really believe women are innately insecure so that was a very poor choice of words. For that I apologize.
I don't know truly why folks can't just take a piss in whatever bathroom is available. I don't know why they even put signs on the doors. Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?
I offer an apology and I do see where this might have sounded a sexism alarm. Sorry to derail the thread.
I remember walking into a small restroom (2 stalls) in a coffee house once where a masculine female-bodied person (don't want to guess at identity) was washing up, and I am both used to masculine-presenting female-bodied folks and and often attracted, so my first thought in those situations is not "OMG there's a rapist killer man in the bathroom." What I did notice was how this person tensed up on my entrance, and I was pretty sure why. I wished there was some way I could set this person at ease, but realized quickly the best I could do was just go into stall. I think I smiled, but this person's eyes were very studiously fixed on the faucet.
I don't remember who posted it, but it reminded me of one of the posts by a transman in another thread a while back - about the first time he realized a woman was afraid of him when he ran to catch an elevator.
I guess it's one of the sad things about femme invisibility that in a non-queer place, you can walk into a bathroom and unintentionally scare or stress out a person whom you would rather reassure.
Thinker
03-11-2011, 08:30 AM
Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?
I have wondered the same thing for a long, long time. They can even put a couple of sinks just outside between the two doors for people who are coming in solely to wash their hands. I do that quite a bit when pumping gas.
You walk up and see a little recessed area out of the way. Outside are 2-3 sinks. To the left is a door (similar to an airplane door) that holds a toilet and sink. To the right, the same.
Ta da....
SelfMadeMan
03-11-2011, 10:07 AM
I noticed, after doing a couple panels/talks at the University of Wisconsin, and then going back for our daughter's ATP performance there this week, that most of the facilities on campus are gender neutral. I think that rocks!
dreadgeek
03-11-2011, 10:26 AM
In a couple of months, my company is moving down the street. Right now, we are the only people in the building and everyone knows me. There are two women's rooms on the first floor---one large and one small. If at all possible, I'll use the small one. When we move, we'll be in a building with another company, around people I don't know. Chances are we won't have our own bathroom and so it will be starting from square one.
All of the other women in the office know me and so they don't give me any grief, but now there will likely be another group of women that I don't work with and it'll start all over again. Needless to say, my enthusiasm for that circumstance is nonexistent.
Cheers
Aj
EnderD_503
03-11-2011, 11:40 AM
I have wondered the same thing for a long, long time. They can even put a couple of sinks just outside between the two doors for people who are coming in solely to wash their hands. I do that quite a bit when pumping gas.
You walk up and see a little recessed area out of the way. Outside are 2-3 sinks. To the left is a door (similar to an airplane door) that holds a toilet and sink. To the right, the same.
Ta da....
I think this would be a good idea, and you really could make it work. I was thinking that it would be difficult because public washrooms are usually made as such to serve as many people as possible at once (large men's/women's washrooms with multiple stalls vs. one-person washrooms). But then I was thinking that if a more European model was put into place you could probably pull it off.
In Germany and Holland (probably the rest of western Europe as well) washroom stalls aren't like in Canada where there's a huge space under the door and big spaces in between the hinges/wall (always hated that). They're more like the stalls in airplanes where the unit is completely closed off so you can't see out/no one can see in. Completely private.
If you follow that model of stall instead of the typical North American stall which might invite voyeurs etc. there is nothing stopping from having washrooms out in the open without being closed off into male/female washrooms. Just have a series of entirely closed off stalls with an occupied/unoccupied sign like planes/trains without the group of stalls being hidden away in a separate room[s].
This isn't entirely unprecedented either. I did see some similar concepts in some German cities and in Holland: outdoor urinals. Basically, in the middle of a city square or whatnot there would be a cluster of outdoor, plastic urinals (urinals forming a triangular or similar cluster so that the backs of the urinals were facing each other, and walls on the side of each urinal more concealing than normal). This way people didn't need to go into a store or something to use the washroom. Also saw some dixies in town squares without male/female signs.
I really do think this could be done on a larger scale, and would make a lot more sense than hidden gender restricted washrooms. It would also be safer because would-be offenders would not have the luxury of hiding behind walls when entering the washroom of the opposite sex, because there would just be a row of single user dixie-like stalls.
Linus
03-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Ender: I do agree but I have to toss a monkey wrench in it: I can pretty much guarantee that even if such washrooms existed here, someone will cry "But women could be raped!" and that would shut down such ideas. As long as the FUDing (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) discussions continue, I'd doubt we'd ever see truly gender neutral washrooms on a large scale here in the US. This nation is a nation of causing/propagating FUD. It's what drives so much of it.
And that is the sad part.
BullDog
03-11-2011, 12:32 PM
Linus, women do get raped. It's not fear, uncertainty or doubt. So what exactly are you saying?
Linus
03-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Linus, women do get raped. It's not fear, uncertainty or doubt. So what exactly are you saying?
Sorry I should have been clearer. I know women get raped. So do men. But to assume that ALL rapes occur in the washroom (as posited by the right wing and such) is hyperbole.
The majority of rape occurs in the home. Since rape is often the reason to keep washrooms gender specific, why not keep homes gender specific?
BullDog
03-11-2011, 12:54 PM
OK, well I have never heard of the right wing positing that all rapes occur in the washroom. I do think it's quite clear the right wing doesn't have women's safety as a top priority given what they are trying to get passed through the U.S. Congress right now.
Linus
03-11-2011, 12:58 PM
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/13855/comparing-gainesville-florida-to-kalamazoo-michigan-bathroom-ads
BullDog
03-11-2011, 01:07 PM
Ok thanks Linus. The logic of the commercials don't make sense of course. The man going into the bathroom after the child goes in would not be "legal." That's absurd.
Also what if they show a boy going into a men's bathroom instead of a girl, and show the scary looking dude going in after him? That was already "legal."
I don't think a child that age should be going into a bathroom alone, and I don't think the children should be playing unsupervised.
Linus
03-11-2011, 01:11 PM
Yup. That's what I was trying to point out. Florida's attempt (I think this was attempted in 2007/2008) at a gender neutral law in regards to washroom shows a lot of what the right seem to think of washroom neutrality and, in particular, the "threat" of transwomen in the woman's washroom.
BullDog
03-11-2011, 01:14 PM
Ok, got it. Trans people are not the threat and rapists and child molesters are not going to change their ways based on any laws.
Linus
03-11-2011, 01:15 PM
Ok, got it. Trans people are not the threat and rapists and child molesters are not going to change their ways based on any laws.
Yup. But at the same time, to suggest that behind every door is a rapist is a bit extreme (which is what the ads that ran in Florida and elsewhere suggested).
EnderD_503
03-11-2011, 01:32 PM
Ender: I do agree but I have to toss a monkey wrench in it: I can pretty much guarantee that even if such washrooms existed here, someone will cry "But women could be raped!" and that would shut down such ideas. As long as the FUDing (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) discussions continue, I'd doubt we'd ever see truly gender neutral washrooms on a large scale here in the US. This nation is a nation of causing/propagating FUD. It's what drives so much of it.
And that is the sad part.
Linus, actually I think the suggestion I've made might actually solve the problem of women potentially being sexually assaulted in public washrooms. Basically, what I'm suggesting is that instead of bathrooms stalls (such as those found in European nations rather than in North American nations) being placed in separated male/female washrooms, they're not placed in a room behind a door at all. Basically, the washroom remains visible from the outside (have something like this in Europe in those open "pay" washrooms/showers where you put a coin into a slot, go through a turnstile where employees give you a towel if you're showering in a single-person unit or allow you into a row of floor-to-ceiling washroom stalls. The stalls are then solid ceiling-to-floor stalls like in western Europe, with strong bolts/locks that are difficult to break through, and only big enough for one person. Nobody can get into the stall when someone is using it, and once you get out of the stall to wash your hands, you're mostly in public view making it extremly difficult for assault to occur without the establishment's employees/security noticing.
Also, you could actually add security rather easily to a washroom like this. If you've been to Europe then you've probably seen that many washrooms have an employee of an establishment paid specifically to sit in a washroom and collect change from patrons using the washroom/paper towel (depending on where you go). I've actually seen a few bars and clubs in Toronto adopt something similar, making the washroom safer for lone women using the washroom. I think WrongBar has something like that if I remember correctly. You could very easily replace such a position by a makeshift security guard who would promote both public safety and a more environmentally friendly approach (paying small change for paper towel, instead of people using huge gobs of it like they often do).
I wish I could find pictures online of the model I'm talking about, because with this post I realise I've actually seen similar washrooms in Europe that are totally open with a series of closed off stalls, and employees handing out towels to dry your hands or after a shower.
Does what I've written make sense? Not sure if i've explained it well enough.
Medusa
03-11-2011, 01:47 PM
I'm glad you mentioned this June. I actually had a conversation with someone a couple years back about the whole "male child" issue in restrooms, branching off from a larger conversation about Michigan Women's Fest and how male children have to stay in a completely different camp.
If I had a boy child? There is NO way I'd let him go in a public restroom alone in this day and age. I'd be terrified of something happening.
AtLast
03-11-2011, 01:52 PM
I did not let my son go to public bathrooms unattended until he was almost 10 years old, and then I stood outside the door and waited.
Up until then, I took him into the "Ladies" room with me. He was my child and I didn't care if it made people uncomfortable.
You were right on to do this. Other people can just deal with it!
BullDog
03-11-2011, 01:55 PM
I seriously don't get why anyone would be bothered by a ten year boy being in a women's restroom.
Gayla
03-11-2011, 01:55 PM
I understand how scary "different" can be. Whether it should or shouldn't be scary isn't the issue for me with this situation. If someone is uncomfortable by my presence, my first thought is not about educating them or asserting my rights, it's about defusing the situation to make them less frightened. I can usually do that with a smile, a nod and a simple, "Hello" while I make my way in or out or am washing my hands. It may take a second for it to register in their mind but once it does, I'd like to think it has a more positive affect, in the long run, than being confrontational.
I would much rather someone, in a restaurant for example, walk back to their table and maybe tell an amusing story about incorrectly thinking a man had walked into the ladies room rather than go back to their table all pissed off because someone berated them in the restroom when they were just confused and may have stared a moment longer than necessary.
morningstar55
03-11-2011, 01:58 PM
.
I don't know truly why folks can't just take a piss in whatever bathroom is available. I don't know why they even put signs on the doors. Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?
I offer an apology and I do see where this might have sounded a sexism alarm. Sorry to derail the thread.
cuz i for one ....... would never ever want to share a bathroom , coem out to wash my hands while a man is there holding his dick.. peeking..........
not to mention mens rooms...... always stink........ signs are needed.
now how ever ...... i think they should make more unisex bathrooms.... some wal marts and gas stations have them..... but only for 1 person at a time to use.
just my 2 cents
DomnNC
03-11-2011, 01:59 PM
I'm with you June and Medusa. Any time my 9 yr old nephew is with me he goes in the ladies room as well. I don't give a flip what any woman in there thinks. There's too many whacko pedophiles out in the world today. If there's a place where it's just one stall in the mens room I'll let him go in there and I'll stand outside the door and wait on him.
Dutch Leonard
09-22-2011, 05:47 AM
http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/Dear_Lady_in_the_Womens_Washroom-10801.aspx
ruffryder
09-22-2011, 03:58 PM
Linus, I say go for the men's room unless it's a small facility, and they watch your every move! However, you already brought it up to them. I wouldn't have. That sucks. I've used both rooms. Depends where I'm at and who's around. Many times than not however, I find I should just stick with the guys.
Here is an article where a 7 yr. old trans boy is denied the use of the boys restroom. http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-school-denies-use-1180991.html
Just goes to show how ignorant people are, even when it comes to children.
*Anya*
09-23-2011, 07:26 PM
The only time it bothered me to have an older male child 9-10, in the womens room was one time while sitting down, this kid kept sticking his face under my door to look at me. Not once but several times.
I asked him several times to please stop. I have no idea where his mom was or why she did not say anything.
When I took my 5 & 8 year old grandsons to the womens room for safety from potential pervs, we had an entire discussion about politely respecting the space of others with no heads under the doors.
morningstar55
09-24-2011, 05:19 AM
cuz i for one ....... would never ever want to share a bathroom , coem out to wash my hands while a man is there holding his dick.. peeking..........
not to mention mens rooms...... always stink........ signs are needed.
now how ever ...... i think they should make more unisex bathrooms.... some wal marts and gas stations have them..... but only for 1 person at a time to use.
just my 2 cents
wow did i miss spell some stuff.. haha...... not on purpose i swear. lol
i know i meant to type peeing not peeking. geesh where'd that come from.. lol and come not coem..
ok
driving a truck and stoping at truck stops.. i tend to avoid truck stop buffets.. in fact , maybe shy away from all buffet type places.
i heard stories from other male drivers how they wont do the truck stop buffets cuz they have witness'd men in the mens room going to the bathroom , NOT washing hands then head to the buffets... well *barf* ..
that just makes me ill , thinking about it.
Bad_boi
10-20-2011, 05:31 PM
I think people should have the right to use the restroom they feel most comfortable in.
Personally I think gender neutral restrooms should be mandatory.
Tuff Stuff
09-23-2015, 10:35 PM
I don't have a problem seeing little boys in our restrooms,that would be little boys around age 1 day to 7-8 years old.Especially true if he is accompanied by a woman or girl..no,if he is in there alone.
As for a big butch like myself..when I have to go I don't wait,so i'll go into a man's bathroom or woman's bathroom You can't stop me.Of course what happens next is another story.I have never been stopped from entering a man's restroom but I have been stopped more than once when I went into a woman's restroom.Some of those were very confrontational and could of been deadly...i'm not somebody to fuck with and someone who grabs me physically and has no right to touch me means a battle..means self-defense in my book.And usually those episodes were caused by a woman who had mistaken me for a man and she called for help,security,her husband,her boyfriend or some other male person.So today I avoid any problems when I enter a woman's bathroom and see a nervous looking woman eyeing me by clearing my throat or having small chit chat with her.These days I don't blame the situation on anyone because a woman has a right to feel safe in any envioment and when in doubt should speak up.I have had problems also where the person does know that I am a woman but still makes trouble/problems for me..but that's another issue.
JDeere
10-08-2015, 10:29 PM
I go in whatever bathroom I can get away going in. Sometimes when I am not binding, I can get into the women's, when I am binding I can get away with going to the guys bathroom, but I watch my surroundings just in case.
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.