Passing - Is it a Privilege?

[Nat]

I began delving into passing privilege in the (very interesting and intriguing) thread about femme privilege (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=533) but I think it warrants its own discussion - available to everybody in the community - because there are multiple forms of passing (or not passing) in this community.

This excerpt is from an article regarding mostly transwomen (from annelawrence.com (http://www.annelawrence.com/twr/passing.html)), but I thought a lot of what was said would be relevant in a broader context as well. I really like how much of this is worded, because I think it hits on several important key points regarding the privilege of passing, and also a few points regarding the pain/disadvantages of passing.

*As an aside - where are the transwomen? Do we have transfemmes or other transwomen among us here? If not, I hope they discover us at some point and that they feel welcome here.*

...although most of them don't realize it, gay, lesbian and bisexual people also are gender variant, because they are defying cultural norms for their sexualities in their same-gender sexual relationships. Because passing privilege explains the power imbalances between overt and covert forms of gender variance amongst the sexual minorities, it becomes equally relevant to gay, lesbian and bisexual people as well as to transgendered people. As such, it is a key component of transfeminist analysis, as important as male privilege has been to earlier waves of feminism.

...

Passing privilege creates a significant power imbalance in the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered community, since it allows its possessors to escape the intense societal stigmatization and marginalization associated with being queer. Those who pass as nontransgendered or straight simply do not experience as much external oppression as those who do not. The lack of passing privilege makes it far more likely for someone, regardless of their sexual identity, to fall victim to discrimination, harassment and violence. Indeed, anyone who is perceived as queer - regardless of their sexual orientation - either lacks passing privilege or has forfeited it, by choice or by an overt act.

The impact of passing privilege on the political "LGBT" movement have been painfully obvious. Because the majority of gay men and lesbians possess it, they have the luxury of dominating the movement with their gay and lesbian identity politics which erases the sizable visible gender variance within their own communities. Gay and lesbian identity politics dumbs down the reason for their oppression to invisible acts committed mostly in the privacy of bedrooms. But who you sleep with doesn't get you into trouble - it's what you look like and how you act. One would think that visibly gender variant gay men and lesbians would be our immediate allies, but traditionally they have been almost as marginalized as trans people by their passing privileged peers. The covert and overt forms of gender variance, as manifested by the passing privileged and the visibly queer, have created deep divisions within and amongst the sexual minorities. One of the most glaring consequences is a "civil rights" movement that seeks to protect only the (already passing) privileged, with a leadership all too willing to sacrifice its community's most vulnerable members, as it panders to the genderphobia of straight legislators.

But the impact of passing privilege is felt far beyond just the LGBT political movement. Passing privilege has some unique qualities that separates it from other traditional forms of privilege which are bestowed at birth. For some transgendered and transsexual people seeking to live full-time, passing privilege can be gained through the administration of exogenous hormones, various cosmetic procedures and surgeries. However, the majority ultimately fail to obtain passing privilege, ironically prevented by their lack of birth privilege. There are simply too many physical characteristics produced by the surge of hormones during adolescence that cannot be erased by hormones and surgery in later years. Moreover, accessing these medical technologies is difficult and expensive, and usually a function of class and race privilege. Thus all transgendered people who go full-time will, at least at some point during their gender transitions, lack passing privilege. Even those who pass well enough while clothed or made-up lose their passing privilege in intimate situations - which is why many do not get routine medical check-ups, or even seek treatment for acute illnesses.

And there is an even darker side to passing privilege. Although no one talks about it, a hierarchy exists amongst transsexual women based upon it. In my own estimation, only about a third of transsexual women pass perfectly - thus allowing them to conceal their transsexual status. Passing privilege creates friction in our support groups between those with and without it. The passing privileged are usually a group's most popular members, and coveted as companions. Sadly, those who lack passing privilege are often rudely rebuffed by those who possess it when their friendship is sought. Thus passing privilege creates divisiveness even within our support groups, as it destroys solidarity and cripples our community- building efforts.

I feel like some of the stuff said about transwomen in the above quote applies also to femmes - at least to some extent. We don't talk toooo much about femme hierarchy, but I think there is some hierarchy associated with passing for straight - or for the amount of surprise and disbelief a femme gets when she imparts she is a lesbian and how that's both frustrating, disheartening and, at least for some femmes, also complimentary.

There's a lot here. I'm coming from a femme perspective at the moment, but I'm guessing there are a lot of perspectives here for people in this community who either pass or don't pass - and it could relate to any number of circumstances - passing or not passing for straight, lesbian, butch, femme, woman, man, cisgender, a certain race, nationality, ethinicity, religion, age, class, income-level, education level, etc.

Although these are various, I think perspectives on any of them from people who do or do not pass would or could be a really meaty and interesting discussion. Also, I would love other perspectives from books or articles or interviews or blog posts or whatever it is that speaks to you regarding passing.

My main question is - is it really a privilege? I don't have that answer for myself right now, (or, more accurately, I find myself alternating between "yes" and "no" and "maybe so") but I am very interested in getting a better and broader understanding.

[Nat]

I'm cross-posting this, because it probably belongs more in this thread than in the femme privilege thread, though the two issues (passing and femme privilege) overlap. I hope that's alright!

I was listening to an Outbeat Radio podcast called, "Coming out from Behind the Badge." This was a podcast about police officers both in and out of the closet, and they ended up talking about the negative side-effects of passing within the context of closeted officers. Because I feel that some of these issues do apply to passing privilege as experienced within this community, I went ahead and copied it down:

Gay officers, because a majority of them are in the closet, become the target of harrassment unknowingly by the harrasser. Many officers, they're not out to their families, friends, coworkers - and for that fact, they're unseen. Because they're unseen, a person will make homophobic jokes, gay comments, not knowing that they're affecting their officers sitting at the table. There's been many examples of good officers leaving agencies just because they were afraid that they would not get back-up because of what they've heard in the locker room, or they've heard at the briefing table. The unseen officer is a problem. The officers - once they come out - some harrassment will discontinue. They will not be harrassed in that manner. But their fear of not getting back-up or being ostricized once they are out is a very real threat to their safety.

This is just one example of how passing is a mixed bag. The podcast did interview one female cop and one man who said he is effeminate and that it's always been assumed he was gay. The majority of the officers were masculine men who spent years in the closet, and people assumed they were straight based on their gender presentations. Although there are definitely differences between passing for a straight cisgender man and passing for a straight cisgender woman, I still think this is one of many examples illustrating the mixed bag of passing for straight.

Honestly these days, I'm sick of coming out of the closet. Every aquaintanceship or friendship I begin feels like a game of double-dutch. I'm trying to figure out exactly how and when and in what way to jump in there and say, "I'm a lesbian." If it's too soon, it's out of context. If it's too late, things start feeling dishonest because I know they are assuming I am straight. It's taxing. It doesn't feel like a privilege to feel like I either have to discuss my personal life and identity with people or have them interpret and speak to me me as a straight woman.

Also, as suggested in the quoted text, I don't think it's better to be exposed to homophobic remarks by people who assume I'm straight than to be the intentional target of homophobic language. If I had to choose one-for-one between the two, maybe being the direct target is worse in that it's more immediately threatening, but receiving these messages from people who assume I'm straight is more insidious, frequent and unnerving. I definitely begin to feel those messages are the true feelings of society, and overall that makes me feel less hopeful about humanity.

[theoddz]

Nat, this is a great topic for discussion. I'm on my way out the door, but I'll be back to share some thoughts. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[PapaC]

Drive by thought...

privilege can exist/does exist whether one chooses to believe it is or isn't for themselves.

Is passing a privilege? depends on the context. Since my context tends to take shape from a more worldly/cosmopolitan/not-always-in-a-queer-bubble perspective, I would say, absolutely passing is a privilege, whether I want it to be or not. I like how you're bringing up a variety of intersections around the word privilege.

Much luck with this thread.

-Chris

[Nat]

Nat, this is a great topic for discussion. I'm on my way out the door, but I'll be back to share some thoughts. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Yay! I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts!

[Nat]

Drive by thought...

privilege can exist/does exist whether one chooses to believe it is or isn't for themselves.

Is passing a privilege? depends on the context. Since my context tends to take shape from a more worldly/cosmopolitan/not-always-in-a-queer-bubble perspective, I would say, absolutely passing is a privilege, whether I want it to be or not. I like how you're bringing up a variety of intersections around the word privilege.

Much luck with this thread.

-Chris

Chris -

Thank you so much for your input! I've beena arguing with myself on this for the last few days, and I definitely see your point.

[Nat]

A note about the word "Passing" and its problematic use with transfolks -

Although it does appear (from the article I quoted) that some transfolks are fine with using the word "passing" to describe the experience of being interpreted as the gender one is, I can imagine for others that using the term "passing" in this way may seem self-negating.

I met a wonderful and funny transwoman years ago at a Queer Conference down at UT Austin. She said somebody asked her once about how she felt about not passing. She said she asked that person, "Not passing as what?? I look just like a transwoman." Still, many transfolks want to be interpreted as a "man" or a "woman" without the qualifier of "trans." I'm not sure "passing" is the most accurate word for that, and I don't want to impose it on anybody who feels uncomfortable with applying that word to theirself. (<--I know this use of the word "their" is extremely awkward, but I'm experimenting with the singular, gender-neutral use of the word "they" as it's the most commonly used gender-neutral use to spring naturally from the English language (I think)).

If you feel like there are privilege differences between being seen and understood as the gender you are, and *not* being seen and understood as the gender you are, please don't hesitate to contribute to this thread using whatever language suits you best.

Though I am not trans and cannot speak from a trans perspective, I would imagine trans people who are interpreted 24/7 as their gender may run into more trouble at airports, at gyms, in deciding when (and if?) to come out with potential new relationships, when applying for jobs where anxieties may arise about whether your references will use your correct pronoun/name, in the event of arrest, in the event of medical emergency, and also in the event of one's death if the news gets a hold of the story and spins it in a transphobic way. I can also imagine a transperson with this experience would be privy to transphobic commentary from cisgender folks who have no clue, and that this would be insidious and damaging in its unique way.

These are just some of the things I can imagine *might* be issues for transfolks who are interpreted as cisgender, but like I said, I'm not trans (in that sense) and I cannot fully know what it's like to either pass or not pass as the gender I actually feel that I am. (In fact, I never feel as though I pass as the gender I am because I am bigender).

When I "pass" for straight or even cisgender, it is a case of passing as something I am not. In this way, "passing" is a very different thing for me than the "passing" described in the quote from the perspective of a transwoman.

[adorable]

Thanks Nat. I was going to post in the other thread since Medusa included feminine id'd peeps but it's in the femme zone - I can't figure out who the hell can post what where so - I like it when it's spelled out for me. lol

I pass as straight. That affords me the luxury afforded to all other straight looking white women in this society. I am not discriminated for being gay - unless I am somehow outed or I out myself. People like me who NEVER would if they knew ahead of time - then when they find out - too late - they like me. As a woman I have been passed over for a promotion for specifically that reason being a woman. It happened once and I left the company.

My ex and I both passed. Although people did say they were more likely to tell she was gay. Unless she was with me. lol. So we could hold hands in public and people would actually ask if we were sisters. She was Latina and brown?? We would say "Yep. We're twins!" I think it is because we were about the same size? lol. I have no idea. But it was assumed that we were not gay, just close like that. Even straight women, close friends & family will hold hands and lock arms when they are walking around. I've seen it. I never noticed any stares or backlash.

I could wrap myself in rainbow ribbons, be kissing a girl at pride and someone is likely to say "Oh look, an ally!"

Last year I went to NYC with a masculine looking butch. All morning people were staring at me. Of course, I thought it was because I looked fat. UNTIL someone yelled out to her something like "what up homie?" kind of snickering, trying to start shit. THEN I realized that the reason everyone had been staring at me all day is because they were now assuming I was gay. O-M-G The realization that everyone knew was just shocking to me. All of a sudden I didn't feel safe anymore. I was scared. She just laughed and said that was how it was for her every day of her life. YIKES.

I didn't love it. I felt like people were judging me in a way that they didn't before. I now HAD to hold onto her because we looked more formidable together and I felt like more of a target even 5 feet from her. By the end of the day I was ok, after I realized people weren't lining up to punch me in the face.

Where I live is very safe. I like going out with butches here and being seen as gay. I know where I am. I am sure nothing will happen. No one looks at you "like that." But a butch and I have to hold hands in order for me to be actually seen as gay. Because it's not uncommon to see butches here with lots of people so just walking next to each other doesn't work.

The only time that invisibility really sucks for me is when I'm trying to find someone to date. I am out at work. I am brave where I'm safe. I honestly don't know how I would deal with being stared at every day all the time. I guess I won't until I'm tested. I hate snow. HATE IT. I hate driving in it, looking at it, shoveling it....but I know I'm safe here and can be gay and do things like hug, kiss, hold hands, skip up and down the street with anyone I want- whatever - and it's ok, appreciated even.

Everywhere isn't like that. I have far more respect for those who live very queer looking lives in places that are unfriendly and in some cases hostile. It takes more guts then I realized. They are the ones who make life safer for me (and I think all of us) everyday in a meaningful way just by going to the grocery store and being visible.

[Rufusboi]

Sometimes I am read as female and sometimes male. I never know until I'm referred to as he or she. We recently sold a house. The real estate agent always referred to me as he (by the way, I never "correct" people on the use of pronouns.) Anyway, the agent, who is male, always referred to me as he. What we noticed though is that he spoke to Melissa in a different tone and manner than he talked to me.

Melissa said for the first time she realized how straight men address women differently than men. He was condescending to her but addressed me as a "buddy." At one point he called her "honey." Was he more sexist than other men? We're not sure. Do many straight men use a different tone of voice and approach to men rather than women? I don't know if I would call how he addressed me as "straight privilege" but I feel like we got to peak behind the curtain of how straight men address each other vs how they talk to women.

Rufus

[atomiczombie]

I absolutely anticipate that once the T I am on changes my body significantly, I will pass and experience privilege. When I think about it I feel anxiety. I told my therapist that, and she said I should call people on it when they are sexist toward women and homophobic, etc. But I should at least enjoy the privilege a little. After all, most of my life I have been perceived and treated by people as a girl/woman, a lesbian, and a gender oddity. The gender oddity part I experienced as a little kid, not just since I started wearing mens clothing and cut my hair as an adult (although I definitely experience that these days too). So, should I enjoy the privilege? I don't think I will be able to, because it just seems so fucking unfair to me. But maybe I will like it, I just don't know how that will feel when it comes. If I do end up enjoying the different way I am treated, would that make me an asshole? *shakes head*

On the other hand, I really want to be out as a transguy, for political reasons. I know that gay rights in America would be greatly advanced if every gay man and woman/lesbian came out to their family/friends, etc. When people hide in the closet, they are in some way contributing to the homophobia of our society. There is shame in hiding. At the same time, I understand that there are a lot of people who's well-being and lives would be at stake if they came out, so I don't really judge or fault such people for staying in the closet. Coming out is tough, and no one should be pressured to do so. You have to be ready yourself. But the fact remains, that if more people did come out, that would be a big blow to the homophobic bigots. If people know someone who is gay or lesbian, they are less likely to stay bigoted. Not saying there is a guarantee but the likely hood is significantly reduced. I realize that some of what I am saying is controversial. I know that some people will disagree with me. That's fine.

But I think it works the same way in some degree with transfolk. It is great to be treated as the gender that you feel you are inside. It is a liberating feeling. Yet, I myself want to be out as a transguy, to confront transphobia head-on. I think that if more of us weren't stealth, it would further our cause for equal rights. Yeah, I said it. We should be out if we want the same rights as cisgendered people. That means giving up privilege. I plan to do that in ways that count the most. With friends, (family already knows) and with anyone who I encounter in the world who is homophobic/transphobic. If I am able to work again, I might or might not out myself during the interview, but once I am settled into a job I won't make it a secret. This is a political choice. I make it on behalf of all my gay/lesbian/trangendered/queer brothers and sisters. Fuck privilege. I am out and proud.

[PapaC]

Wow, ok, so I have a number of issues with this post, so I'd like to ask some questions and make further comments. I want to feel through this in a pragmatic way if I can. See, without you realizing it, my first thoughts were "i'm feeling judged" when that may not be your intent at all. So, let's work through this?

I absolutely anticipate that once the T I am on changes my body significantly, I will pass and experience privilege. When I think about it I feel anxiety. I told my therapist that, and she said I should call people on it when they are sexist toward women and homophobic, etc. But I should at least enjoy the privilege a little. After all, most of my life I have been perceived and treated by people as a girl/woman, a lesbian, and a gender oddity. The gender oddity part I experienced as a little kid, not just since I started wearing mens clothing and cut my hair as an adult (although I definitely experience that these days too). So, should I enjoy the privilege? I don't think I will be able to, because it just seems so fucking unfair to me. But maybe I will like it, I just don't know how that will feel when it comes. If I do end up enjoying the different way I am treated, would that make me an asshole? *shakes head*

Why does enjoying privilege automatically have to mean that you'd be an asshole? Think of it this way: is every white person an asshole for having (and enjoying) privilege that POC's do not experience? Is every white male an asshole for walking in this world for having automatic and perceived privilege? If the answer is no, then you may want to be *mindful* of your newly perceived (and improved) privilege while still enjoying it.

On the other hand, I really want to be out as a transguy, for political reasons. I know that gay rights in America would be greatly advanced if every gay man and woman/lesbian came out to their family/friends, etc. When people hide in the closet, they are in some way contributing to the homophobia of our society. There is shame in hiding. At the same time, I understand that there are a lot of people who's well-being and lives would be at stake if they came out, so I don't really judge or fault such people for staying in the closet. Coming out is tough, and no one should be pressured to do so. You have to be ready yourself. But the fact remains, that if more people did come out, that would be a big blow to the homophobic bigots. If people know someone who is gay or lesbian, they are less likely to stay bigoted. Not saying there is a guarantee but the likely hood is significantly reduced. I realize that some of what I am saying is controversial. I know that some people will disagree with me. That's fine.

Well, you are correct, I am in disagreement here's why. I believe that there is a time and place for everything (I swear to God (lol), the most useful passage in the Bible whether I'm a believer or not is Ecclesiastes 3:1-15)

Shame in hiding? Well, it depends on where one is on the spectrum and multifaceted appearance and position in all things 'trans'. Is there "shame" in being (for lack of a better word) 'Stealth'?

I mean, really atomic, am I shaming myself every time I introduce myself as "Hi, I'm Chris" without saying "Hi, I'm Chris, I'm a transguy." ... what does 'coming out' really mean anymore? (that's a rhetorical personal question I ask myself but you an answer if you feel)...

Yes, some trans folk want to walk this world without the "T" identification... It's kinda similar to (picture if you will)... that big ? in a bubble (like in a cartoon) above someone's head when they see you now (or when they saw me prior to 'passing' or before Testosterone).

"Shame" in this context, I feel is a bit of a loaded word. Though I'm not saying you yourself shouldn't feel proud to be out and visible. I am saying, there are some of us that enjoy (there's that word again), the privilege of making it a 'choice' to pass.



But I think it works the same way in some degree with transfolk. It is great to be treated as the gender that you feel you are inside. It is a liberating feeling. Yet, I myself want to be out as a transguy, to confront transphobia head-on. I think that if more of us weren't stealth, it would further our cause for equal rights. Yeah, I said it. We should be out if we want the same rights as cisgendered people. That means giving up privilege. I plan to do that in ways that count the most. With friends, (family already knows) and with anyone who I encounter in the world who is homophobic/transphobic. If I am able to work again, I might or might not out myself during the interview, but once I am settled into a job I won't make it a secret. This is a political choice. I make it on behalf of all my gay/lesbian/trangendered/queer brothers and sisters. Fuck privilege. I am out and proud.

I feel your passion, and I certainly hope you will continue to navigate your live and your transition around the intersections of privilege that you will experience. But you are touching on some points that are .... not unique to the trans community but certainly are highlighted boldly in trans* interactions with one another. I experience a butt-load of situations back home where a good portion of trans folks want to be visible ("out and proud"), some of us want to be/are/appear straight, some us are decidedly stealth 100% and some of us are not.

I fall in the category of, stealth a lot of time, until I'm not. You can bet a lot of my reasons is tied up around my personal safety, and then there's times where I feel I don't have to/should have to explain myself.... until I do.

Prime example (and here's where I'll show my ass to you)... I laugh at the idea of carrying "transition" papers when I'm travelling. Now, for reference, you should know (and I hope you remember meeting me atomic? it was at a bash in oakland in 2008)... Anyway, assuming you know me, what you may/may not know is: I have "F" on my passport. Due to a complicated mess around id's and nationalities and surgical requirements and so on and so forth, I'll be travelling with "F" on my passport for, a few years more at least. I've travelled to/through approximately 6 different country borders between US/Canada and parts of Europe. I've (naturally) experienced secondary screenings various times entering into the United States (suspected racial profiling).

Not once was my gender questioned, and as such based on my personal opinion/experiences, it seems laughable to me that someone carries a "I'm a TG person, and here's a doctor's diagnosis to prove it" letter in their back pocket. (that's my being at my grossest judgeyness, I'll own that).

My point is: I don't carry a letter to explain myself, because I don't feel I have to. If I'm questioned by customs or border patrol, they will have to ask me directly and I will give them a direct answer. I don't turn green or get scared at the idea of pat downs (like I was in the UK -- btw, those guys are serious about security over there. I was shocked to see police with machine guns at the airport).

Carrying a letter feels.... not too visible per se. maybe a little bit of a "look at me, I'm an attention whore" (again, I'm totally owning my biase/judging on this).

Is it because I'm stealth? Yes and no. I'd like to think that I have the strength/courage/determination to be able to look at someone straight in the face if ever asked and state who/what I am. But, until then, I don't believe in just volunteering my private information.

That to me isn't about shaming but about personal determination without prejudice...

Cheers,

[Martina]

i have a facebook friend, an ex of a good friend of mine and a nice guy. Anyway, he is on his honeymoon, and he posted recently that he and his new wife were getting ready to go out clubbing.

It struck me like a brick. They can go to any club they want. When they go to another country, they don't have to go to a gay resort in order to be together.

It's not about this guy. i am not begrudging him any pleasure in life.

But that obvious passing privilege just hit me recently.

[AtLast]

Sometimes I am read as female and sometimes male. I never know until I'm referred to as he or she. We recently sold a house. The real estate agent always referred to me as he (by the way, I never "correct" people on the use of pronouns.) Anyway, the agent, who is male, always referred to me as he. What we noticed though is that he spoke to Melissa in a different tone and manner than he talked to me.

Melissa said for the first time she realized how straight men address women differently than men. He was condescending to her but addressed me as a "buddy." At one point he called her "honey." Was he more sexist than other men? We're not sure. Do many straight men use a different tone of voice and approach to men rather than women? I don't know if I would call how he addressed me as "straight privilege" but I feel like we got to peak behind the curtain of how straight men address each other vs how they talk to women.

Rufus


My experiences are much the same.... amazing, isn't it? Interesting, as I realize that I like this dichotomy in my life (even though it can be difficult at times) because it is in sync with my internalization of female masculinity and keeps me aware of just how far we have to go! Serves as motivation. This probably is so because I am just someone that is ever involved in LGBTIQ politics as well as women's rights. Is different for everyone, I would think.

[Dylan]

Yes. There is great privilege in passing.

Of course, there is. Do I think it can have it's down sides? Of course. We all want to be seen for who we are and not feel ashamed about who we are. Unfortunately, we don't live in that society. We live in a kyriarchal (sp?) society where This trumps That.

I'm beginning to experience some aspects of straight, male privilege (it's a tight walk), and I notice a lot of the places that, over the last 40 years:

conversations go more smoothly.

I'm taken more seriously.

people are nicer.

people don't stare.

I don't set off any radars.

people don't grab their kids.

people don't point at me.

kids don't stare and point and ask questions while their parents grab them and hold them closer.

people don't follow me through stores

salespeople don't stare at me in stores

people don't look at me then quickly look at my girlfriend

people don't immediately 'look for my chest' to determine my gender

NO ONE stares at me in the bathroom and gasps

I'm sure getting a job is going to be easy as pie.

I'm sure companies/people with whom I spoke BEFORE I got to the interview won't tell me there was a mistake and they're really not hiring

No one's told me lately the values of finding jesus

No one's given me ANY kind of religious lecture lately

Men get out of my way when I'm walking down the street

People get out of me and Mahhh Woman's way when we walk down the street together

People actually LOOK at me when they're talking to me now

Women don't clutch their purses tighter when I walk by.

Surprisingly, not every homophobic woman in the world thinks I'm hitting on her anymore

I can walk into ANY gas station, bar, club, grocery store, restaurant, etc in ANY part of Texas and NOT have to worry that Bubba's gonna want to kill me or string me up to a fence post.

Some of that is male privilege, but most of it is STRAIGHT privilege. The male privilege is a little bit different.

Do I *enjoy* it? You bet your sweet ass I do. I, for the first time in my life, DON'T live in this constant state of 'having to look over my shoulder' or be 'hyper aware' of my situation. I mean, there's regular safety issues without the added hassle of homophobia and being constantly 'on guard' for some corn-fed, bubba Texan wanting to kick my ass. As someone who's been called, "Lez/Dyke/Lezzie/He-She/Fag/Faggot/Homo/Boy-Girl/YouNameIt since I was two years old from friends, kids, teachers, co-workers, principals, parents, family, passers-by, and ANYONE else...yeah, I'm enjoying people NOT fucking staring at me.

For the first time in 36 years, I've gone an entire month without being called some sort of homophobic/transphobic slur.

And really what am I supposed to do when handed a 'hello' from someone who's reading me as straight? Yell at them and tell them *not* to say hello?

Should I tell women to clutch their purses like they 'used' to?

Should I tell people they *should* grab their kids?

You can't 'give back' the privilege.

But you can stand up for shit you don't believe in. If someone's saying something homophobic around you...CALL THEM OUT! Tell them you find their humor offensive.

But really, what are you gonna do? Run around coifed in a rainbow? What are you gonna do, run down the street tell folks you're a 'tranny'? You'll get killed before you make it to the next major intersection.

I tell some people I'm trans, and I don't tell other people I'm trans. It's not some people's business. My queerness isn't relative to every single conversation I have, and neither is my trans status. Honestly, I'm done being a fucking poster child. I've done it too long. I just want to live the rest of my fucking life NOT being pointed at, stared at, slurred at, beaten up, or any other damned thing...I'm not coming out to the whole world anymore. And honestly, what's the point? I can be supportive, and I can be political, and I can still be the same loud-mouthed, opinionated jack ass I've always been. The difference is people now don't have to judge me BEFORE I open my mouth. And, because I'm taken more seriously, my words actually carry more weight now than they did before. I can be a much more useful mouth-piece without wearing my "I'm trans" T shirt while I walk down the street.

Hell yeah passing is a privilege. I (me,me,me) get to tell whom I (me,me,me) *want* to tell. I (me,me,me) might get judged now on my actual merits (as in workplace) instead of my queer status. IF I get a job now, it won't be because I get to be the visual 'diversity marker'. "Ohhhh, look how awesome we are...we hired a lesbian! Go Team Diversity.<insert backpat here>"

I think anyone who has privilege (passing or otherwise) needs to be aware of it, but I also think it's ludicrous for anyone to *want* to be oppressed. Honestly, I think that's more a cover up for guilt. No one wants to be oppressed...that's a given. It doesn't mean you have to utilize the tools of oppression you were given, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to constantly put yourself in a place of being oppressed.


Dylan

[Rufusboi]

I read something last night that reminded me that we need to think of this as "white male privilege" not just male privilege. I was reading about an African American FTM who gets profiled by police now and is finding himself pulled over a lot. Amending again.....heteroseuxal white male privilege. All males are not equal.

Rufus

[AtLast]

Yes. There is great privilege in passing.

Of course, there is. Do I think it can have it's down sides? Of course. We all want to be seen for who we are and not feel ashamed about who we are. Unfortunately, we don't live in that society. We live in a kyriarchal (sp?) society where This trumps That.

I'm beginning to experience some aspects of straight, male privilege (it's a tight walk), and I notice a lot of the places that, over the last 40 years:

conversations go more smoothly.

I'm taken more seriously.

people are nicer.

people don't stare.

I don't set off any radars.

people don't grab their kids.

people don't point at me.

kids don't stare and point and ask questions while their parents grab them and hold them closer.

people don't follow me through stores

salespeople don't stare at me in stores

people don't look at me then quickly look at my girlfriend

people don't immediately 'look for my chest' to determine my gender

NO ONE stares at me in the bathroom and gasps

I'm sure getting a job is going to be easy as pie.

I'm sure companies/people with whom I spoke BEFORE I got to the interview won't tell me there was a mistake and they're really not hiring

No one's told me lately the values of finding jesus

No one's given me ANY kind of religious lecture lately

Men get out of my way when I'm walking down the street

People get out of me and Mahhh Woman's way when we walk down the street together

People actually LOOK at me when they're talking to me now

Women don't clutch their purses tighter when I walk by.

Surprisingly, not every homophobic woman in the world thinks I'm hitting on her anymore

I can walk into ANY gas station, bar, club, grocery store, restaurant, etc in ANY part of Texas and NOT have to worry that Bubba's gonna want to kill me or string me up to a fence post.

Some of that is male privilege, but most of it is STRAIGHT privilege. The male privilege is a little bit different.

Do I *enjoy* it? You bet your sweet ass I do. I, for the first time in my life, DON'T live in this constant state of 'having to look over my shoulder' or be 'hyper aware' of my situation. I mean, there's regular safety issues without the added hassle of homophobia and being constantly 'on guard' for some corn-fed, bubba Texan wanting to kick my ass. As someone who's been called, "Lez/Dyke/Lezzie/He-She/Fag/Faggot/Homo/Boy-Girl/YouNameIt since I was two years old from friends, kids, teachers, co-workers, principals, parents, family, passers-by, and ANYONE else...yeah, I'm enjoying people NOT fucking staring at me.

For the first time in 36 years, I've gone an entire month without being called some sort of homophobic/transphobic slur.

And really what am I supposed to do when handed a 'hello' from someone who's reading me as straight? Yell at them and tell them *not* to say hello?

Should I tell women to clutch their purses like they 'used' to?

Should I tell people they *should* grab their kids?

You can't 'give back' the privilege.

But you can stand up for shit you don't believe in. If someone's saying something homophobic around you...CALL THEM OUT! Tell them you find their humor offensive.

But really, what are you gonna do? Run around coifed in a rainbow? What are you gonna do, run down the street tell folks you're a 'tranny'? You'll get killed before you make it to the next major intersection.

I tell some people I'm trans, and I don't tell other people I'm trans. It's not some people's business. My queerness isn't relative to every single conversation I have, and neither is my trans status. Honestly, I'm done being a fucking poster child. I've done it too long. I just want to live the rest of my fucking life NOT being pointed at, stared at, slurred at, beaten up, or any other damned thing...I'm not coming out to the whole world anymore. And honestly, what's the point? I can be supportive, and I can be political, and I can still be the same loud-mouthed, opinionated jack ass I've always been. The difference is people now don't have to judge me BEFORE I open my mouth. And, because I'm taken more seriously, my words actually carry more weight now than they did before. I can be a much more useful mouth-piece without wearing my "I'm trans" T shirt while I walk down the street.

Hell yeah passing is a privilege. I (me,me,me) get to tell whom I (me,me,me) *want* to tell. I (me,me,me) might get judged now on my actual merits (as in workplace) instead of my queer status. IF I get a job now, it won't be because I get to be the visual 'diversity marker'. "Ohhhh, look how awesome we are...we hired a lesbian! Go Team Diversity.<insert backpat here>"

I think anyone who has privilege (passing or otherwise) needs to be aware of it, but I also think it's ludicrous for anyone to *want* to be oppressed. Honestly, I think that's more a cover up for guilt. No one wants to be oppressed...that's a given. It doesn't mean you have to utilize the tools of oppression you were given, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to constantly put yourself in a place of being oppressed.


Dylan
I am happy for you in many, many ways. No, no one wants to be oppressed, spat at, assaulted, called names, and everything else you listed. NO ONE! I also do not any Transperson to be subjected to transphobic actions.

Yes, there is a but...

I am not going to be entirely happy until masculine women for which are no longer subjected to this kind of treatment and live in fear and ridicule. And when masculine women can legally marry another woman (or gay men) as many transpeople can do (there is some more privilege!).

Hence, our (the LGBTIQ cadre) joining forces politically and socially to not only see things like ENDA pass, same-sex marriage become legal throughout the entire US, trans and homophobia be a thing of the past Hope this happens in my lifetime, but, I have doubts). The entire queer community must join in solidarity, and fight for civil liberties and rights for[B] every single one of us!

Yes, you are starting to enjoy both male and straight privilege.... and hell no, do not feel guilt! But, remember where you came from (although, I doubt you would as you are a political and social activist).

One of these[I] Prides, my hope is that there is one, huge, unified Pride March and that that unity does not splinter as it so often does.

But... ENJOY! I know that being any kind of queer in the south is a far cry from many other places, although, hate crimes are everywhere.

[atomiczombie]

Heh. I knew my post was going to get some conversation going. I guess I need to clarify a couple things because I didn't do this very well in what I said before.

A) I don't believe that privilege is something I can choose not to have. Once I have physically transitioned to the point that I can be stealth, I will have no more control over how people treat me than I do now. I understand this fully. Sorry if I made it seem like I am under the wrong impression.

B) If I enjoy being treated with more kindness and openness and treated better, that won't make me a bad person per se. What I was asking in my last post is really, where does this fit in my own personal sense of responsibility to be an advocate for transgender rights in my community, my country?

C) I do not plan to wear rainbows all over myself and introduce myself as Drew, the transguy. I am just Drew. I think its going to be a case by case basis for me with whom and where to be out.

I just feel a need, inwardly, to be visible in a political way. Does that make sense to anyone? I know that there are places in the United States where it is dangerous for people like me to be out. I don't plan to place myself in harmful situations just to make a point. I just strongly believe that being as out as I can be, as out as makes sense for me, is the right thing to do to further the cause of equal rights for sexual and gender minorities.

If we all come out, we win. I don't say this to pass judgment on others or to preach to people. I say it because it's true and it needs to be said. The words feel uncomfortable coming out of my mouth, believe me! I am scared when I think about it, because after all, I am taking T and had one surgery and planning another surgery not only for me to feel right in my body, but also so that other people will see the real me. This isn't something that I already know how I will navigate, personally. I just feel that being as out as I can where it makes sense to do so is the right thing to do - for ME.

I hope this makes some sense. It's 4 a.m. so please don't hold it against me if it doesn't.

[MsMerrick]

Couple thoughts.. I would have thought that of course, its a totally different thing, the notion that passing as straight, by default as it were.. was a totally different hing, than passing for a Transperson..
But I regret to say, realize from reading some of these responses, that indeed, some people only recently figured that out.
At least now i understand better, the why of the vocal diatribes !
Good grief, teh difference is night and day...

[Dylan]

Couple thoughts.. I would have thought that of course, its a totally different thing, the notion that passing as straight, by default as it were.. was a totally different hing, than passing for a Transperson..
But I regret to say, realize from reading some of these responses, that indeed, some people only recently figured that out.
At least now i understand better, the why of the vocal diatribes !
Good grief, teh difference is night and day...

Merrick,

I'm having a hard time understanding your post/points. Can you please clarify?


Thanks,
Dylan

[firie]

Just some thoughts--I apologize as they are not well formulated, as I've been having some epiphanies.

I don't think I can generalize "passing" to include the trans experience of passing and femme "passing" as an experience that is the same in any way. I also think that "passing" becomes and has to be an active choice, and for me, people misreading me as something other than queer is not my fault nor is it my responsibility, but with that, as others have discussed, comes with it, a certain amount of privilege. I am certainly not denying that I don't receive het or cis or gender privilege, however that is juxtaposed with the oppression I experience as a female, so I would say I experience privilege moreso than Dylan, even when he does pass as male. However, I must certainly caveat that I don't feel that "passing" all the sudden makes one free in this world, and I certainly don't feel that "passing" all the sudden brings inalienable rights. Dylan and I cannot get married and Dylan and I cannot pass in certain contexts, and despite all the privileges in one on one encounters, we are still in the same boat, in the sense that we are second class citizens because of our relationship and Dylan's parts. We are also queer, and most of our friends our queer, and most of what we do is queer, and so if there was ever some sort of raid on our favorite social spot (cops still raid queer bars in parts of Texas, and there have been some recent incidents, so we are not outside of that target, except it's not as likely to happen here in Austin, you never know), we'd go down like everyone else. Dylan's likely to get the shit beat out of him, and I am likely to find myself in that spot when I am with him. A gay guy was attacked downtown in Austin many months ago, and Dylan and I could just as likely have that fate (I would argue Dylan moreso) just because we are walking out of some rainbow flag waiving bar or club. We have the same fear of really drunken, coked up UT frat boys as any other queer in this town, along with any woman or person of color in this town. The whole city is on alert, quite frankly, when UT wins a football game and the fucknuts head downtown.

However, I will say that I do live in a more "progressive" city perhaps, so I don't feel the harassment in the way that other femmes might at work or in quiet social circles (all bar and club and downtown activity aside). And I don't really feel invisible, nor need or want to be invisible. This is actually a great privilege. I am also not responsible for how I am read, and if I am read wrong, then I go about educating on that but then I have the comfort to do that. I also work in a real social worky environment, and although I am not denying that discrimination does not occur, people keep it to themselves for the most part, or they are willing to talk through whatever it is that may be discriminatory.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I don't view my experience as a femme as "passing" but more so an experience of assumptions made by others about me, if that makes any sense.

I think, however, whether I identified or was viewed as straight or queer or whathaveyou, I would still have issue with jokes being made about anyone, and would do the proper professional thing and move up with a manager in addressing it. I think that is privileged because I am also in a work environment that wouldn't have that, at least not allowing it out of the mouths of any one in a public work space without some sort of repercussion.

I think passing is a tricky thing, and we can't cart blanche/lump sum/speak too generally about it as an experience. I also think variables impact this experience and compound things in a way individually that sometimes that experience might seem very privileged (but in a real double bind kind a way) and yet it might also be one of the most dangerous of places a person can be--say in the instance where someone passes and is discovered, and the result is the death of that person (hate crime is highest among trans people, in the GLBTQ community, let's not forget). And as I said above, I do not think you can lump everyone into a general experience of "passing" nor carte blanche say it is the same type of "privilege," as in some cases there may be no privilege to it, when in other cases there might very well be.

[chefhmboyrd]

first let's discuss the word priviledge......
Latin: privilegium - privus (private) leg,lex (law)

Priviledge is a right or immunity granted as a particular benefit, advantage, or favor

do i get special priviledge for looking like i do
most certainly
am i ashamed or sorry that i "pass" as a man
Hell No!
I am a man
i didn't go through what i have been through to march around and introduce myself as Andy the Transguy
screw that

People are gonna think what they want
and i don't give a rats ass!

I am not a very "political" person. but i do stand up for my LRGBLT.... (whatever) brothers and sisters.
i am out at work
they have seen the whole transition
i am out to my family
and they love me more than ever
i am out to my friends of all walks of life.

but.........
i never was a big flag wearing, rainbow brite, prostesting, badge wearing, card carrying member of the LRGBLT.

i intend to create change and promote unity quietly, whilst the world is sleeping.

:moonstars:

[Andrew, Jr.]

I am happy and content with who and what I am. I think it is a shame that the medical community is still not dealing with the fluidity of sexuality and gender. Society is just ass backwards. We see Amanda Bynes, 24 yo, who is "retiring from acting", who is this person and really does anyone of us really care that she is retiring - no. Vanessa Carlton and Anna Paquin are both advocating their bisexuality to the public. I think it's a shame that they feel the need to address this. Is this a privilege? No. It is what it is.

Andrew, who didn't go thru what I did to march around to introduce myself as "Andy the transguy". This is so insulting. I understand the post, but this just doesn't sit well with me.

[Rockinonahigh]

Last summer I went to a trans suport meeting hear at the Philladelphia center,where ive been a suporter since it begain.The group is there for trans folks,ppl with trouble with gender expreson as well as cross dressers.ect.I have know most of these ladies and gentlemen on and off for a while.Dureing the meeting one of the girls sugested they have a beautician come to the next meeting to help with choseing makeup,dress styles and all.Then the person speaking turned to me and said ..we will get u a bubba coach.Folks I felt like I had been hit with a brick,no one said a word to the speaker who I have known for years and is a neighbor of mine.I just sat there like a dumb knot on a log with that same kind of look on my face hopeing she was kidding me,but she wasnt at all.It wasnt long that the meeting was over.Yes, I had picked her up and brought her to the meeting and was takeing her home.Not once did she say a word,nor have I herd from her sence.Yes ,t pissed me off big time,u bet it was hard for me not to say what was going thrue my mind wich was not nice for shure.
When ppl talk about privilege and passing I often wonder how we a a glbt community can say such things to other ppl,true we take a lot of crap from the straight world but we shouldnt have to deal with it in our own.We all know it happends ,one of these day I hope no matter who and how we represnt ourselves this dosent happen to someone else.Now dont think im digging up old bones hear cause all im doing is useing this as an example of how we shouldnt treat one another s its enogh to deal with the normal everyday bs of liveing in a world where we are put down,laughed at,stared at
ect.Respect is something we all should be given no mater how we id in the world...This is 2010 I hope at some point this happends...but im not holding mybreath.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I know many a drag queens. I seriously doubt that they would find comfort in this thread. I think they would be a bit upset to say the least. I don't understand why we as a community don't help each other instead of putting each other down in a hole? Maybe it's me, but lately I just get negative vibes from here. It doesn't feel like home. I think Jack and Medusa want this to be home. Home means love. That is what I think of when I close my eyes and imagine what it would be like. A huge mansion with a man cave and a lady's den. A giant pool, hot tub, and club house outback. Two or three Weber grills all around the pool. Lounge chairs everywhere. Chimneas everywhere. No neighbors to bitch and complain or call the po-po in. Woods surrounding this mansion. We would be celebrating each other - as we are. A home where everyone was welcome, and be as they are. No ifs ands or buts. Just love.

Andrew

[Dylan]

Andrew,

Why would drag queens be upset by this thread, and honestly, what do drag queens have to do with this conversation?


Confused,
Dylan

[Nat]

I know many a drag queens. I seriously doubt that they would find comfort in this thread. I think they would be a bit upset to say the least. I don't understand why we as a community don't help each other instead of putting each other down in a hole? Maybe it's me, but lately I just get negative vibes from here. It doesn't feel like home.

Hey Andrew -

I definitely didn't start this thread to make anybody feel bad. I just had a lot of questions about whether and when passing is a privilege - and I wanted to open that conversation up beyond the femme privilege discussion. I'm really grateful to be hearing differing viewpoints, because I think it's an issue where there are many sides and perspectives - and maybe it's not an issue where we can get any sort of meaningful consensus - and maybe that's okay.

[AtLast]

Last summer I went to a trans suport meeting hear at the Philladelphia center,where ive been a suporter since it begain.The group is there for trans folks,ppl with trouble with gender expreson as well as cross dressers.ect.I have know most of these ladies and gentlemen on and off for a while.Dureing the meeting one of the girls sugested they have a beautician come to the next meeting to help with choseing makeup,dress styles and all.Then the person speaking turned to me and said ..we will get u a bubba coach.Folks I felt like I had been hit with a brick,no one said a word to the speaker who I have known for years and is a neighbor of mine.I just sat there like a dumb knot on a log with that same kind of look on my face hopeing she was kidding me,but she wasnt at all.It wasnt long that the meeting was over.Yes, I had picked her up and brought her to the meeting and was takeing her home.Not once did she say a word,nor have I herd from her sence.Yes ,t pissed me off big time,u bet it was hard for me not to say what was going thrue my mind wich was not nice for shure.
When ppl talk about privilege and passing I often wonder how we a a glbt community can say such things to other ppl,true we take a lot of crap from the straight world but we shouldnt have to deal with it in our own.We all know it happends ,one of these day I hope no matter who and how we represnt ourselves this dosent happen to someone else.Now dont think im digging up old bones hear cause all im doing is useing this as an example of how we shouldnt treat one another s its enogh to deal with the normal everyday bs of liveing in a world where we are put down,laughed at,stared at
ect.Respect is something we all should be given no mater how we id in the world...This is 2010 I hope at some point this happends...but im not holding mybreath.

I don't blame you for feeling this way at all! And, yes, a good example of how very bigoted the GLBTIQ (I have to include everyone- as the larger umbrella community can be so damn upsetting!). Sometimes, I find no difference from straight society (the anti-gay, lesbian, trans, intergendered, et. al. portion of it).

This comes up so often on the site (and certainly on the old site), I honestly can't figure out WTF is wrong with it! Often, I think about members that have been around since the old site's inception and wonder how they have been able to stick around.

It's hard because we do represent a part of the overriding queer community that historically has been put-down, and just not welcome much at all and these websites give people some place to find each other and interact. Yet, I have felt the slaps in the face like this as a butch. Concerning trans members, I have heard that things like B-F social events were not open to them at one time (blatantly not open!)). Then there is the hierarchy of what is femme!

ARGH!!

I'm sorry this happened to you, it was a deep insult to your integrity.

Like I said before (as have others), when will we walk together and stop the hate, stereotypes and oppression of each and every identification with our community? Once a year during Pride celebrations just isn’t cutting it!

Thinking that Butch Voices doing more than one conference in different cities may help. And the femme conferences as well as events like the ReUnion. Things are very different when we are able to actually be together in person…. Very different! But, how many of us can financially get to some of these yearly (a big reason I am happy to see BV doing multi-events)?

[AtLast]

first let's discuss the word priviledge......
Latin: privilegium - privus (private) leg,lex (law)

Priviledge is a right or immunity granted as a particular benefit, advantage, or favor

do i get special priviledge for looking like i do
most certainly
am i ashamed or sorry that i "pass" as a man
Hell No!
I am a man
i didn't go through what i have been through to march around and introduce myself as Andy the Transguy
screw that

People are gonna think what they want
and i don't give a rats ass!

I am not a very "political" person. but i do stand up for my LRGBLT.... (whatever) brothers and sisters.
i am out at work
they have seen the whole transition
i am out to my family
and they love me more than ever
i am out to my friends of all walks of life.

but.........
i never was a big flag wearing, rainbow brite, prostesting, badge wearing, card carrying member of the LRGBLT.

i intend to create change and promote unity quietly, whilst the world is sleeping.

:moonstars:


Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around all of the people from every part of the LGBTIQ community sleeping as we are all have been a part of the social, medical, mental health, political and legal processes that paved the way for you and others to go through transitioning. And have been for many years. It didn't happen over night and by transpeople only. The trans movement is an offshoot of the Second Wave of feminism. Look it up!

I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community. And to the hundreds of thousands of people from every walk of life with progressive politics that have donated time and money to organizations that serve and protect you! And I don't give a rats ass what you think of this while you are attending support groups needed for transpeople funded exclusively and in part by public funds. And, don’t even go to paying for elective surgeries yourself. Many people do this all of the time for various reasons. You do not have the only wallet that has been hit. And frankly, as an individual, I have no problem with my tax dollars going for trans surgeries or for mental health services. I'd like to see all of these services covered just like any other medical procedure by insurance or socially funded medical programs.

What the hell island do you think you live on?

[Strappie]

OK I'm not trying to derail anything here.. But I don't feel as though I am anymore privelaged then the next person...

My ID is who I am... like it or not I am a Female ID'd Butch. Does that get me more privileges, NO and do I feel like I'm not privileged, NO?

So for me.. I'm not privileged nor am I lacking privileges.

Just my opinion on me!!

[Dylan]

Somehow, I just can't wrap my head around all of the people from every part of the LGBTIQ community sleeping as we are all have been a part of the social, medical, mental health, political and legal processes that paved the way for you and others to go through transitioning. And have been for many years. It didn't happen over night and by transpeople only. The trans movement is an offshoot of the Second Wave of feminism. Look it up!

I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community. And to the hundreds of thousands of people from every walk of life with progressive politics that have donated time and money to organizations that serve and protect you! And I don't give a rats ass what you think of this while you are attending support groups needed for transpeople funded exclusively and in part by public funds. And, don’t even go to paying for elective surgeries yourself. Many people do this all of the time for various reasons. You do not have the only wallet that has been hit. And frankly, as an individual, I have no problem with my tax dollars going for trans surgeries or for mental health services. I'd like to see all of these services covered just like any other medical procedure by insurance or socially funded medical programs.

What the hell island do you think you live on?

Why do you find chef's post an affront to the LGBTQ community and this site?

Chef says very plainly that he has stood up for the GLBTQ community. I don't understand why not wanting to announce One's Self as a transguy at every meeting is an affront to others.

Also, the trans movement started well before Second Wave feminism started.

I also find it quite disturbing that you are trying to 'guilt' someone with your use of 'public funding'. People don't OWE allies a big hug...anymore than you owe straight allies a big hug.


So Had It,
Dylan

[Soon]

AtLastHome,

I, too, have a real problem with your post to Chef. Please explain, especially, these statements:

..."I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community".... Look it up!.....What the hell island do you think you live on?" / endquote

Similar to Dylan request, what is it exactly that has roused such inflammatory feelings towards Chef's post?


You have--on many occasions--purported yourself to be a trans ally and, yet, I question your previous statements when I read this post tonight.

[AtLast]

Why do you find chef's post an affront to the LGBTQ community and this site?

Chef says very plainly that he has stood up for the GLBTQ community. I don't understand why not wanting to announce One's Self as a transguy at every meeting is an affront to others.

Also, the trans movement started well before Second Wave feminism started.

I also find it quite disturbing that you are trying to 'guilt' someone with your use of 'public funding'. People don't OWE allies a big hug...anymore than you owe straight allies a big hug.


So Had It,
Dylan

Think it speaks for itself and is a very good example of male priviledge.... No, Dylan, the Trans movement as a social movement stems directly from the Second Wave. Questioning the gender binary is a feminist concept. And I am so angry, I really am not going to get into this discussion. I said what I felt and it stands. It takes a hell of a lot to piss me off like this.... A LOT!

There are a hell of a lot of people behind transpeople and have done a hell of a lot to fight transphobia. And that post kicks shit in the eyes of trans supporters as well as relatives of trans or intergendered people. Afterall, transpeople and intergendered are the children, parents, cousins, spouses, etc. of every one of us, our families just like the rest of the LGBTIQ umbrella. Look at the stats. We are all affected by gender identification. It is not just the domain of the transgendered. None of us would have the kinds of changes that do in fact, make our lives better today without political and social movements and people that give a damn about human and civil rights working hard to effect change. You know, those that the poster doesn't give a rat's ass about! The one's he might very well want to thank. The one's that are still engaged in stopping hate crimes, for example and advocate for service for transgendered people. You don't have to be trans to be involved with trans politics.

[Rockinonahigh]

ALH~~
Yes,it was a huge insult but I just bit it back cause I really didnt see any good coimeing from me blowing up as it made many others already uncomfortable as it was.The next day I got a fue calls from others appolagising for the comment as it was uncalled for, wich I appresheated.Truth is I was so shocked at the comment it took a while for me to address it.If I have lerned anything over the years is controle when faced with situations like this.

[Dylan]

Think it speaks for itself and is a very good example of male priviledge.... No, Dylan, the Trans movement as a social movement stems directly from the Second Wave. Questioning the gender binary is a feminist concept. And I am so angry, I really am not going to get into this discussion. I said what I felt and it stands. It takes a hell of a lot to piss me off like this.... A LOT!

There are a hell of a lot of people behind transpeople and have done a hell of a lot to fight transphobia. And that post kicks shit in the eyes of trans supporters as well as relatives of trans or intergendered people. Afterall, transpeople and intergendered are the children, parents, cousins, spouses, etc. of every one of us, our families just like the rest of the LGBTIQ umbrella. Look at the stats. We are all affected by gender identification. It is not just the domain of the transgendered. None of us would have the kinds of changes that do in fact, make our lives better today without political and social movements and people that give a damn about human and civil rights working hard to effect change. You know, those that the poster doesn't give a rat's ass about! The one's he might very well want to thank. The one's that are still engaged in stopping hate crimes, for example and advocate for service for transgendered people. You don't have to be trans to be involved with trans politics.

Yeah, none of us would be anywhere without activists. We do agree there.

However, Chef owes no one a thank you. I owe no one a thank you. And again, Second Wave Feminism may very well have questioned gender. However, again, transpeople have existed LOOONNNNNNNNG before Second Wave Feminism. And let's not forget too that Second Wave Feminists have shot transpeople in the ass.

I really have no idea what your issue is with Chef's post. And here's where I'll stop speaking for Chef.

I have a huge issue with your post back to me.

Yes, there is a but...

I am not going to be entirely happy until masculine women for which are no longer subjected to this kind of treatment and live in fear and ridicule. 1. And when masculine women can legally marry another woman (or gay men) as many transpeople can do (there is some more privilege!).

2. Hence, our (the LGBTIQ cadre) joining forces politically and socially to not only see things like ENDA pass, same-sex marriage become legal throughout the entire US, trans and homophobia be a thing of the past Hope this happens in my lifetime, but, I have doubts). The entire queer community must join in solidarity, and fight for civil liberties and rights for[I][B] every single one of us!

Yes, you are starting to enjoy both male and straight privilege.... and hell no, do not feel guilt! 3. But, remember where you came from (although, I doubt you would as you are a political and social activist).

One of these Prides, my hope is that there is one, huge, unified Pride March and that that unity does not splinter as it so often does.

But... ENJOY! 4. I know that being any kind of queer in the south is a far cry from many other places, although, hate crimes are everywhere.

1. When it comes to transpeople and marriage, your post negates the fact that most transpeople actually CANNOT marry. And those who can, do so surreptiously. Most states won't allow transpeople to legally marry.

2. I actually disagree. I mean, yeah, it would be great if we could all come together and support eachother. However, our issues are different. Also, let's not forget who passed the first ENDA bill at the expense of transpeople.

3. First, I said it was a tight walk at this point. I'm sitting 'a top' not that much male or straight privilege. I get some from time to time. But, please explain your comment, "...remember where you came from". From where do you think I came? And also, why is it I've left from whence I came (in your opinion)?

4. Actually, most of the homophobia/transphobia I've experienced has come from the Yankee states/areas.


Dylan

[Dylan]

Atlast,

I'm really just wondering why you're telling transpeople how they need to act, and whom they need to thank.

And really? Telling the oppressed they need to be grateful to/for the oppressors? Really?


Dylan

[iamkeri1]

Privilege is seductive. Once you have it, it is extremely difficult to give it up, and I acknowlege the fact that I do not want to give it up. While I agree with papachris that I would (I hope to God) In my own life I have experience the privilege of "passing" for most of my adult life. I am cis-gendered, love being a woman and femme, and have passed as straight thoughout my queer evolution. For half of my life, I have had the additional privilege of "passing" as straight in a straight relationship, because my late husband was FTM. Now, six years later, I am beginning a relationship with another FTM who has lived his whole adult life as male. So the "passing" privilege goes on.

Passing has brought me much in the way of privilege. In hundreds of ways, far too many to list, I have benefitted from having been perceived as straight.
The two most important to me have been that I was able to legally marry my beloved and have society acknowledge him as my husband, and that we were able to adopt children as a couple, and have both names on the paperwork, and not have to fight for that right/privilege. My relationship was recognized and supported in ways that would never have happened had we been gay. (Or for that matter, if they had known he was trans.)

I echo PapaC's Hopes (quoted below) that I would be able to tell who I am if ever confronted. But I deeply hope I will not have to face this confrontation.
[QUOTE=PapaC;134067]
Is it because I'm stealth? Yes and no. I'd like to think that I have the strength/courage/determination to be able to look at someone straight in the face if ever asked and state who/what I am.

Here's the flip side for me. I am in the closet as I never was in the thirteen years I was evolving as a lesbian prior to my knowledge of my darling's trans status. I have secrets that are important to me to protect, and which would be very painfull for my whole family if they were revealed. (My children do not know that their father was not a bio-male. He did not want them to know, so I am honoring his wishes and maintaining silence though I feel like a "sword of Damocles" hangs over my head because of the possible "outing" of this secret.

While I have wonderful Gay friends from my earlier life, I feel alienated from "my people" due to my "straightness." I miss gay life. I miss the instant connection, the shared experience and the beauty of the lifestyle.

Yah, I know, cry me a river, chick, I know I have benfitted and I know I am privileged.

I will be back later for more. It's late.

Smooches,
Keri

[BullDog]

I don't have any issue one way or another with anyone's post, but in terms of health care and social services, feminism has helped to pave the way for many- including trans people- and there seems to be a lack of knowledge and appreciation for that at times. Sometimes it does feel like a kick in the teeth.

The reason some are able to pass is because of work that has been done before them to create the services needed for that. None of us would have access to the social services and health services we do now, however limited they may be, without the work done by the generations before us- in terms of the queer community that includes both feminists and trans activists (with overlap between the two of course).

Our Bodies Ourselves- our ability to have agency and control over our bodies- is very critical for women and trans people (some of course are both)- and all the work that has gone into that has given us so much more than those who went before us.

It seems a bit hard to hear sometimes that I am just doing my thing and take my privilege and no I'm not a political activist.

I posted a link to this already in another thread, but there was an interesting article written by Michelle O'Brien, a trans woman, who discusses the intersections of feminism and trans activism, particularly around health care issues.

http://www.deadletters.biz/feminism.pdf

As to the topic of this thread, I do not pass for male and I do not pass for straight. I pass as a dyke or lesbian, which is what I am. I don't think many people out in the world really understand or know about butch or what that is. If I am mistaken for male, it is only temporary. I don't think many see me as straight because I am treated quite differently from feminine women- straight men seem to think quite often that women are at their disposal- for their attentions, to do their bidding, etc- which is why I have never thought of femmes as having any sort of straight privilege. Men ignore me, unless they are being hostile.

I am white, middle class and able bodied so I do have my own sets of privileges. Being a masculine woman is a mixed bag. I am more at risk in some ways for homophobic attacks, but I am also fairly insulated from male attention and many assumptions they can have about women- which I am quite grateful for.

[apretty]

i hate being confused for straight; it sucks being thought of as something (anything) i'm not.

[lillith]

This is interesting. I am currently working on a Ph D. internship and my topic is Nella Larsen's novel Passing, and have had to recently define what it is. It never really dawned on me all the different ways it can be applied. Even in a fiction novel from the Harlem Renaissance, the characters enjoy some kind of privlegde as Mulottas passing as white.

I know for my life being a femme is both difficult and a luxury. In this internship, I have had to explain my life and who I am to my peers because there is sort of no way around it. One of my peers is a straight girl who is rather masculine and she has to explain to people, including her family, that she is straight. We have exchanged stories of invisibility and now that this topic has come up, I will have to ask her about any privledges she feels she has or lacks because of her appareance.

Thanks for the thought provoking topics of discussion that I can take into the real world and find out about.

lillith

[AtLast]

Atlast,

I'm really just wondering why you're telling transpeople how they need to act, and whom they need to thank.

And really? Telling the oppressed they need to be grateful to/for the oppressors? Really?


Dylan

Dylan, that is not what I am doing or want to do. I was offended by a total disregard for the fact that there exist many that support and have worked hard for transgendered people. And that it stuck in my craw that someone doesn't give a rat's ass about this when this very site is part of a community of very diverse populations. A community...

You are taking this way out of context. You know very well where I stand on trans politics.

So, allies, relatives and supporters of transgendered and intergendered people are their oppressors? Having some humility and recognizing that there is much to be grateful for is something I cherish. I wake up every day with the knowledge that so much is much bigger than myself and my own trials and tribulations even when they have been many and difficult (although, most people go through some shit). I'm grateful for being alive and able to contribute to what exists outside myself. Yes, personally, I get tired of people (in general) that only view the world in terms of themselves and don’t recognize how interconnected we all really are. I give a big rat's ass about people and their struggles. You know this. I do not suffer self-absorption well, never have, never will and make no bones about this… and won’t.

I really don't feel like getting into this with you. I have great regard for you and like you very much. We have had our site ups and downs, but I believe have much in common with queer politics. I am not taking this to task as you are just not understanding what I am upset about.

Obviously, other people have things to post that are important to them and have moved on. I am moving on....

[always2late]

I never gave much thought to privilege, until my ex and I were having dinner at a very nice restaurant and she asked me to come with her to the bathroom to "run interference". And then it hit me how much I take for granted. I can walk into a bathroom anywhere without being harassed, having someone call security, or even (and this has happened to my ex) having some woman grab me before I walk in and yell that I am going into the wrong bathroom.

Although I never realized it, or even really thought about it, I am afforded a great amount of privilege because I don't "look gay". I was never abused in school or targeted by bullies, I have never been denied a job just because of who I am, I have never been harassed on the street, I have never been smirked at, yelled at, cursed at, lectured to, or had someone attempt to "save" me. My son is not teased, and when I take him to the park I am not looked at surreptitiously and suspiciously. I make no secret of the fact that I am gay, but I can't deny that I get a pass because of the way I look.

[chefhmboyrd]

AtLastHome,

I, too, have a real problem with your post to Chef. Please explain, especially, these statements:

..."I find your post not only narcissistic, rude, arrogant and ignorant, it is an affront to this website and the B-F community".... Look it up!.....What the hell island do you think you live on?" / endquote

Similar to Dylan request, what is it exactly that has roused such inflammatory feelings towards Chef's post?


You have--on many occasions--purported yourself to be a trans ally and, yet, I question your previous statements when I read this post tonight.

Dylan and HSIN,
thanks for the support.

i am not sure how i managed to offend anyone. i was just speaking of my experience.

it's not that i don't care about the community, i just don't buy in to all the PC crap. i could say the cow is black and someone gets offended. :sarcasmalert:

it's almost like i have more trouble with the LRGBLT community than anyone else, because of the collective chip on the shoulder, and people are quick to be offended. almost looking for a fight:fastdraq:

i'm not a fighter, i am a survivor, and it is ALH's right and "Priviledge" to not to agree or like me. (that is the type of thing that i don't give a rats ass about)

@

[Dylan]

Dylan, that is not what I am doing or want to do. I was offended by a total disregard for the fact that there exist many that support and have worked hard for transgendered people. And that it stuck in my craw that someone doesn't give a rat's ass about this when this very site is part of a community of very diverse populations. A community...

You are taking this way out of context. You know very well where I stand on trans politics.

So, allies, relatives and supporters of transgendered and intergendered people are their oppressors? Having some humility and recognizing that there is much to be grateful for is something I cherish. I wake up every day with the knowledge that so much is much bigger than myself and my own trials and tribulations even when they have been many and difficult (although, most people go through some shit). I'm grateful for being alive and able to contribute to what exists outside myself. Yes, personally, I get tired of people (in general) that only view the world in terms of themselves and don’t recognize how interconnected we all really are. I give a big rat's ass about people and their struggles. You know this. I do not suffer self-absorption well, never have, never will and make no bones about this… and won’t.

I really don't feel like getting into this with you. I have great regard for you and like you very much. We have had our site ups and downs, but I believe have much in common with queer politics. I am not taking this to task as you are just not understanding what I am upset about.

Obviously, other people have things to post that are important to them and have moved on. I am moving on....

I'm numbering, because I'm on my first cup o' coffee...not because I'm being short.

1. You've said this before, and I'll say the same thing back. I have no idea what your trans politics are besides what you post on these sites. I have respect for your posts as well; however, again, we don't know each other from anywhere else but these posts.

2. No where in Chef's post does he say anything about 'screw those people'. In fact, he very clearly stated how he stands up for everyone in the GLBTQ community.

So, what's the problem? Because he said, "People are going to think what people want to think, and I don't give a rat's ass"?

3. Just because someone's an ally, it doesn't mean they're not part of the oppressing group. And honestly, self-professed allies are quite problematic anyways. As part of the 'oppressing' group, One is an oppressor. Self-professed allies are the worst, because usually they're looking for a big thank you without actually doing any work. They want a big pat on the back for 'being there'. I don't trust anyone who names themselves an 'ally'...because usually they're also the first ones to say something offensive and get mad when you call them on it...and then remind you what a big 'ally' they are. No, the trans community doesn't 'owe' anyone else a thank you.

4. I just don't see the self-absorption you see in Chef's post, and that's cool. People read things differently.

5. Telling me not to 'forget my roots' is telling me what to do. First off, you don't even know 'my roots'. And what exactly do you mean by that? What do you assume my roots are? That seems a pretty arrogant thing to say, no?

Or how about the history lesson on 'The Trans Movement'? The arrogance of that statement, and your continued idea that Second Wavers 'started The Trans Movement', and your continued 'correcting' of trans history is quite bothersome. Perhaps, YOU should 'look it up' when exactly the Trans Movement started and by whom. Because it didn't start in the 60s. It started long before that...it blew up in the 60s and 70s as did EVERY movement...and in part BECAUSE of the animosity from the Second Wave community (Janice Raymond, Mary Daly, etc)

Telling me whom I need to thank is telling me what to do.
I don't owe cis people anymore of a thank you than I owe straight people or rich people. How about I tell you to thank men for all they've done to *help* you and 'remember your place'?

Have you thanked a trans person lately for Stonewall? For starting so much shit in the 60s?

Trans people don't owe their oppressors a big hearty kiss on the cheek. And if self-professed 'allies' think they need a thank you, they're in it for the wrong reasons. P.S. I don't owe Second Wavers a big ol' kiss on the cheek either. Second Wavers weren't 'questioning gender' to 'help' trans people...they were questioning politics and gender for THEIR OWN purposes. And really? You think transpeople weren't 'questioning' gender before the Second Wave came along? Seriously? That's quite an arrogant statement, no?

This 'community' (not site specific) is NOT friendly towards one another. We were lumped together out of sexual 'deviancy'...not out of love and camaraderie and mutual support. I don't owe the lesbians or the gays or the bisexuals anymore thanks than you 'owe' transpeople. And that's all aside from the fact that the GLBQ has (throughout history) tossed the Ts aside, co-opted the history, thrown Ts under the bus, screwed the Ts through legislative processes (ENDA anyone?)...and now you're telling transpeople to *thank* those people? Seriously?


Seriously,
Dylan

[Mitmo01]

The only thing i pass for is a butch dyke and many times throughout the day since i work on the phone i get called sir more times than i can count and i dont even correct anyone......it used to be tiresome and now i just find it amusing....

[Apocalipstic]

Dylan and HSIN,
thanks for the support.

i am not sure how i managed to offend anyone. i was just speaking of my experience.

it's not that i don't care about the community, i just don't buy in to all the PC crap. i could say the cow is black and someone gets offended. :sarcasmalert:

it's almost like i have more trouble with the LRGBLT community than anyone else, because of the collective chip on the shoulder, and people are quick to be offended. almost looking for a fight:fastdraq:

i'm not a fighter, i am a survivor, and it is ALH's right and "Priviledge" to not to agree or like me. (that is the type of thing that i don't give a rats ass about)

@

Hi Andy!

I think people who live in different parts of the country don't know that in the South there are no public funds for meetings, surgeries any of that like there is in California. No one went before except Nick, we are kind of in a free fall making our own way and it works for us.

Also, there does seem to be a divide between some Butches and some Transguys. I would love to see us draw together as a global community like we have in Nashville! :)

We get along and hang out and it's no big deal and no one gives a rats ass who is trans and who is not and who passes and who does not as long as we try to be sensitive to what pronouns people prefer and so forth.

Before you transitioned you got zero support as Butch from the LBGQT etc community, same as I get zero support as Femme. That's how it is here. So it is difficult to care about what they think now. Hell, I have a hard time and I am a Lesbian.

I don't think what you said was offensive at all, so please don't think that we all are always ready for a fight. We are not going to all agree, but roll with it. It is important that we have these conversations and it is so great to have you here!

[Apocalipstic]

I pass as straight and for the most part, I wish I didn't...but not enough to not be myself.

[Liam]

I think it depends on what you are passing as, as to whether or not there is any privilege to that. For years and years, I passed as a gay male, before my white hair started coming in; I didn't feel terribly privileged.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it depends on what you are passing as, as to whether or not there is any privilege to that. For years and years, I passed as a gay male, before my white hair started coming in; I didn't feel terribly privileged.

Great point!

I pass as a Sunday School teacher and I find very little priviledge in that either.

[Apocalipstic]

I have really been thinking about this.

I guess for me, when someone says they don't care about who knows if they are trans, it does not means that they don't care about the struggles of other people. It means that they do their own thing. I see that as healthy, not selfish.

I admire and respect you AtLast, but is there something I am missing? Should Transpeople who have hated themselves their entire lives and known something was wrong and are finally becoming who they knew they always were supposed to be, announce their gender? Are they supposed to feel bad for passing?

Especially in a part of the country with pretty much ZERO support from community. The Gay and Lesbian community in Nashville does not even support Butches and Femmes, much less Transpeople.

Also,

When someone new comes on the website it would be great if we could not immediately assume the worst and call them selfish etc etc....

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.

[Martina]

Great point!

I pass as a Sunday School teacher and I find very little priviledge in that either.

i pass as an old lady school teacher originally from Ohio. Corn-fed vibes. Old lady vibes. School teacher-librarian type vibes.

Sigh. Why can't the kick ass leather femme show??

But, alas, i look like my mom, who was also an old lady school teacher (but not -- as far as i know -- a leather dyke).

[Apocalipstic]

i pass as an old lady school teacher originally from Ohio. Corn-fed vibes. Old lady vibes. School teacher-librarian type vibes.

Sigh. Why can't the kick ass leather femme show??

But, alas, i look like my mom, who was also an old lady school teacher (but not -- as far as i know -- a leather dyke).


I have always wanted to look like the Huge Dyke I am too! "snarl"

[Martina]

1. You've said this before, and I'll say the same thing back. I have no idea what your trans politics are besides what you post on these sites. I have respect for your posts as well; however, again, we don't know each other from anywhere else but these posts.

i do know Atlast quite well. She is a friend. i haven't made a lot of nods in her direction on this site to inform people of that because, quite honestly, there are a few people around who don't like me, and i didn't want her affected by that.

But i will say that i do know that she offers -- and has long offered -- material support to trans organizations and to the trans people -- and family members of trans people -- in her life.

Because of several family relationships and because of her former profession, she has long been involved in one way or another with the trans community and has offered real meaningful support to individuals and groups.

In fact, i have said to her that it's more than i would do. i don't mean to be rude. i saw the post on the donation thread that had to do with the Transgender Law Center, and i was sort of tempted to donate, but then thought, no, not that's not how i spend my money.

i give my money to women's issues exclusively, usually international ones.

i know that the TLC and similar organizations support the rights of transwomen. i suppose if i knew that my money went to assist them alone, it would make sense for me to donate. But my giving is entirely directed to helping women. It's my money, the result of my precious time spent at work, and it's a choice i get to make.

In terms of personal emotional work and my own liberation from transphobia, i put some time in, but because at this point, for me to develop much further along those lines, it means having to deal with some issues i have had with cisgender men in my past, i do not expect to finish that work in this incarnation. (i am not being facetious. i am a Buddhist.)

Again, Atlast does far more of that kind of work -- thinking, reading, challenging herself -- than i do or will do in this lifetime. A lot more. i see it.

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

i do think that intelligent people should look into their own history. That said, i confess that i do not know much about the history of trans politics or how they have intersected with feminist politics. What i know, i have learned from you, actually, on an old thread on the dash site.

i do think, in general, and certainly on this site, feminism takes a hit and gets characterized in terms that are inaccurate and denigrating. i think that much of the time that that happens, it is an expression of misogyny.

[Apocalipstic]

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

[chefhmboyrd]

I like you Martina and At Last! I also like Chef and have known him in his different incarnations for 20 years.

I don't know how much money someone has to donate matters, but Chef is a musician and has played at plenty of Feminist and Lesbian fundraisers and well as speaking on several occasions on Trans issues, including at Vanderbilt University.

I bet, in person we would not even be having this conversation, we could see facial expressions and look into each others eyes and know we are on the same side.

Does Chef want to be seen as a Dude? yes, he is a Dude. Has anyone donated money to that end? no.

Oh, and Chef is older than Chef looks. (sorry Andy, just making sure we are clear that you are not some youngster with no clue about Queer history)

thanks Mommie

[AtLast]

I have really been thinking about this.

I guess for me, when someone says they don't care about who knows if they are trans, it does not means that they don't care about the struggles of other people. It means that they do their own thing. I see that as healthy, not selfish.

I admire and respect you AtLast, but is there something I am missing? Should Transpeople who have hated themselves their entire lives and known something was wrong and are finally becoming who they knew they always were supposed to be, announce their gender? Are they supposed to feel bad for passing?

Especially in a part of the country with pretty much ZERO support from community. The Gay and Lesbian community in Nashville does not even support Butches and Femmes, much less Transpeople.

Also,

When someone new comes on the website it would be great if we could not immediately assume the worst and call them selfish etc etc....

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.



I don't get it, either that's why I do what I do and always will.

I am taking in your points here about a new person and will act accordingly and in private. I am tired of assumptions, too. And misread statements. But, we are all human. Some of us get fired-up due to our history, I do.

I'm not willing to get into trans related discussions anymore on the site. Just never works here. There are many political threads that I enjoy that are not gender related. (except, for me, the world is interrelated via gender). Real-time relationships and work are my focus and this is just not a good forum for these discussions. Yet, I'm glad this site has this representation because maybe it will help kids and families find resources and support. Frankly, that is what is important to me.

I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads posts and thinks about them, or just looks at the Thanks box and clicks because they see particular screen names there. I am not going to use that function anymore- just send reps that are private. I feel like we have made a cheerleading (as in immature in-crowd forming mentality from middle and high school- popularity contests) tool out of that site feature used to summon the forces.


Big weekend ahead with various Pride events in SF with real-time friends and organizations that I am (others are too) proud to be a part of. If my body allows my participation as I want to give it. Time to relax, calm my senses and body so I can be there in full spirit. It is nice to be able to share these activities with people one works with all year. Besides, a friend is going to show his new chest post surgery and he is so funny with his excitement- not going to let this get ruined.

I really am getting too old for this!

[Corkey]

[QUOTE=AtLastHome;136139]

I don't get it, either that's why I do what I do and always will.

I am taking in your points here about a new person and will act accordingly and in private. I am tired of assumptions, too. And misread statements. But, we are all human. Some of us get fired-up due to our history, I do.

I'm not willing to get into trans related discussions anymore on the site. Just never works here. There are many political threads that I enjoy that are not gender related. (except, for me, the world is interrelated via gender). Real-time relationships and work are my focus and this is just not a good forum for these discussions. Yet, I'm glad this site has this representation because maybe it will help kids and families find resources and support. Frankly, that is what is important to me.

I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads posts and thinks about them, or just looks at the Thanks box and clicks because they see particular screen names there. I am not going to use that function anymore- just send reps that are private. I feel like we have made a cheerleading (as in immature in-crowd forming mentality from middle and high school- popularity contests) tool out of that site feature used to summon the forces.

Ok I have issue with this part of your statement. Are you implying that because someone thanks a post that isn't yours they are somehow immature, and high school? Really?? And how many time have I thanked your posts ALH? If you don't want to participate, then don't, but to call members immature because they don't agree with you is a bit offensive,and condescending.


Big weekend ahead with various Pride events in SF with real-time friends and organizations that I am (others are too) proud to be a part of. If my body allows my participation as I want to give it. Time to relax, calm my senses and body so I can be there in full spirit. It is nice to be able to share these activities with people one works with all year. Besides, a friend is going to show his new chest post surgery and he is so funny with his excitement- not going to let this get ruined.

I really am getting too old for this!

[chefhmboyrd]

I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle.

i see no wagon circling
just a difference in personal experience and opinion.
i respect your right to feel the way you do
i only ask for the same

@

[Apocalipstic]

I don't get it, either that's why I do what I do and always will.

I am taking in your points here about a new person and will act accordingly and in private. I am tired of assumptions, too. And misread statements. But, we are all human. Some of us get fired-up due to our history, I do.

I'm not willing to get into trans related discussions anymore on the site. Just never works here. There are many political threads that I enjoy that are not gender related. (except, for me, the world is interrelated via gender). Real-time relationships and work are my focus and this is just not a good forum for these discussions. Yet, I'm glad this site has this representation because maybe it will help kids and families find resources and support. Frankly, that is what is important to me.

I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads posts and thinks about them, or just looks at the Thanks box and clicks because they see particular screen names there. I am not going to use that function anymore- just send reps that are private. I feel like we have made a cheerleading (as in immature in-crowd forming mentality from middle and high school- popularity contests) tool out of that site feature used to summon the forces.


Big weekend ahead with various Pride events in SF with real-time friends and organizations that I am (others are too) proud to be a part of. If my body allows my participation as I want to give it. Time to relax, calm my senses and body so I can be there in full spirit. It is nice to be able to share these activities with people one works with all year. Besides, a friend is going to show his new chest post surgery and he is so funny with his excitement- not going to let this get ruined.

I really am getting too old for this!

It makes me sad that you think we are that shallow when we don't agree, that we have not read and have no knowledge of history or community....or even basic reading.

I bet Pride in San Francisco is a blast, I hope you have fun! :)

At Pride in other parts of the country Butches, Femmes and Transpeople are often ostracized, pointed at, talked about, ignored and over the years grow a tough skin. We can't care about how other people see us, or we would either have to move to California, New York City, live in the closet, or just not be ourselves.

Nothing should be ruined, no forces are being summoned. No conspiracy. Just a discussion about a pretty strong post aimed at a new member...and yes, I do have good reading comprehension.

I just do not understand what seemed to be seething anger on this subject. I admit I have not read every thread on the subject, but I do see that there is a great divide.

Again, I hope you have fun at Pride and I hope that you remember how lucky you are to be somewhere Pride and the Queer community is a happy thing.

[Nat]

i agree that no one who has benefitted from the political work many of us did back in the day owes us thanks or a big hug or whatever.

For what it's worth -

I am very thankful to everybody who has worked hard and is working hard for the rights I have as a woman and for the rights of all members of my LGBTQ community. I owe a lot more than thanks to the people who have paved the way for me and my community.

-------------------------

It really seems that this thread has strayed from its original intent, and maybe that was inevitable.

I do hope that perhaps we could redirect this thread back to the original topic with the understanding and acceptance that we most likely will not achieve consensus? I was never looking for consensus in this thread, but I was really hoping for people to feel like they could share their own thoughts, experiences and feelings. If the tone of the thread has become so rancorous, those who avoid conflict will be less willing to share their own experiences here and I personally feel that would be a shame. Passing especially may be a topic that people who avoid conflict could really have something to say about.

I guess I can't ask that we all sit around the campfire now singing kumbayah, but it would be really cool if we could at least get back on topic?

[Corkey]

Passing is something I sometimes can accomplish. From the back, not the side or front. Do I have any privilege, um nope, none.

[Nat]

isolation in passing

There is a girl that works in my building. She's young and feminine, and one day I was trying to describe to her that OKGo video with the treadmills and I said the guys seemed really quirky and funny. She said, "do you mean like queer?" I said, "no, I personally would like that, but I don't know their orientations."

That was maybe 6 months ago and we haven't really spoken much since. I live in a small town in Texas, and I'm the only out person at my workplace (of several hundred).

Since then, I just kinda have the feeling she is herself queer. I see her every now and then and there's just a queer energy there - it's hard to say. At the time, I had no idea how to read her question - whether it was homophobic or if she was somehow addressing queerness because she is queer.

Maybe this is more an issue of invisibility than passing privilege, but that makes me wonder if invisibility and passing privilege are really separable for femmes. I do think there are femmes (and queer and lesbian women) who fully intend to pass as straight and then there are those who frustratingly don't register as anything other than straight, but it seems like there's a fine line in there somewhere where passing and invisibility would be difficult to tease out from each other.

I could possibly have made a really cool femme (or feminine queer) friend in this little town, but because we both pass for straight (if she's not straight) , we don't even have the possibility of community.

Thank the gods for the internet because here we really can wear our IDs as loudly as those with other more noticeable gender IDs.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=AtLastHome;136139][FONT="Century Gothic"]



I see the bunching of thanks reps accumulating as the wagons circle. Sometimes I wonder if anyone actually reads posts and thinks about them, or just looks at the Thanks box and clicks because they see particular screen names there. I am not going to use that function anymore- just send reps that are private. I feel like we have made a cheerleading (as in immature in-crowd forming mentality from middle and high school- popularity contests) tool out of that site feature used to summon the forces.

[COLOR="DarkGreen"]Ok I have issue with this part of your statement. Are you implying that because someone thanks a post that isn't yours they are somehow immature, and high school? Really?? And how many time have I thanked your posts ALH? If you don't want to participate, then don't, but to call members immature because they don't agree with you is a bit offensive,and condescending.



Thank you for just asking me for clarification. No, this isn't what I said or implied. It is the process of this Thanks button that I am talking about. It is public and at first I liked it because it was fast and simple. Now, as we go on, I see Thanks piles during controversy and that usually means side-taking. This is my interpretation. Factions do develop on sites like this. Just happens.

That process leads to immature behavior based on who thinks is kewl to me. It is obvious here (and on every other site like this one, that factions develop. It just happens and to me, leads to so much of the bashing we do and inability to actually hear each other (I am amazed at all of the non-related assumptions being made about my posts). Sometimes it's just hard not to get going on this path because there are really serious things happening in our lives and we get sensitive. I get sensitive, too. And I certainly have no expectation of everyone agreeing with me. Not here, that is for certain!

I appreciate Thanks from members very much, but have to say that when they take the time to add a statement or two with a rep message, it feels more personal. My reverting to the traditional rep type does not mean I won't be letting people know I appreciate what they posted.
I said that instead of using this feature from now on, I am just going to send a private rep message which is not the same as leaving a public THANKS - different process. I don't remember the [I]Thanks button on the old site.... maybe it was there, possibly added now, I haven't been there in a long time. [B]People that were not part of that site will have no idea what I am talking about.

I feel like this is a huge derail going on, so, if you have something to say to me, just PM me. I am not going to continue to post here and certainly not going to continue to be part of taking the thread off course. I am not going to check back to see any responses to this post. Let people get back to the topic.

[Corkey]

Oh for fuck sakes. We were back on track. Passing..... the topic.

[Sun]

Good topic and one that I will think about and come back to.

"Passing" transferred into "Invisibility" is something that I have been thinking about lately. The most profound example of that is how I experience people assuming that my girl is straight. We both embrace our "queerness" and resist major boxes. There must be a way for the invisibility to soften, even in more conservative areas.

[atomiczombie]

Good topic and one that I will think about and come back to.

"Passing" transferred into "Invisibility" is something that I have been thinking about lately. The most profound example of that is how I experience people assuming that my girl is straight. We both embrace our "queerness" and resist major boxes. There must be a way for the invisibility to soften, even in more conservative areas.

SUN! Buddy its good to see you here.

[T D]

Snip

I don't get this Butches V Transguys thing. I find it very distressing.

Amen, neither do I. I just don't get it!!! In fact I had no idea there was even any issues surrounding this until Butch Voices came along.

[Heart]

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.

What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart

[AtLast]

Every time I see the title of this thread -- it bothers me. Because I don't think passing is ever a privilege. Having white skin, for example, is a privilege, but passing as if you have white skin...? Passing may, or may not, be a choice, but whether it's a choice or not, there is danger inherent in passing. In the eyes of the dominant culture if you pass, you are stealing privilege, not being granted privilege. You are therefore a thief, an interloper, a fraud, you are messing with the power paradigm, and you can pay a heavy price for that.
What's interesting is that there is the reality of being granted privilege if you are NOT passing, but are somehow more closely aligned with the dominant culture anyway. For example, being a light-skinned person-of-color is not passing, but can result in benefits based upon the over-valuing of light skin (colorism). But it's not passing that creates privilege. Passing defies the very definition of privilege. Passing may be a form of resistance or survival, but its not, IMO, a privilege.
Heart


It feels like privilege has become a catch-all term (even hackneyed)on this and other sites. Even a buzz term for I'm politically correct[/I[I]].. look at me.... Honest, self-examination of one's privilege to me, is just ending up as a mean's to be viewed as PC without the very painful work that really does need to be done.

What you bring to light (in red, above) here is so central to this entire analysis and the lack of understanding that privilege has many distinctions in various modalities and populations. It is also not the singular domain of US society. It is not stagnate concept that, it has fluidity in its myriad forms.

I think that what id important for me is to realize that I will always have to study privilege and never accept that it will disappear in any form in my lifetime. And that to view it from a singular stance will not serve me well.

When terms become nothing more than slogans, I know it is time to be more vigilant.

[iamkeri1]

When I was femme in lesbian/gay society, I did not feel privileged for passing (as a straight woman). I felt both invisible and estranged, as the community I was involved with was very andro. I was femme with the additional negative (in their eyes) of being attracted to butch women (mmm-mmm-mmm.) This led to frequent taunting and dismissal of my reality as a lesbian acivist.

I was at all times aware, however, that I had the privlege of revealing or not revealing my orientation when in a work or straight social situation. I was aware that I could choose safety if I felt I needed to, or that I could choose to avoid confrontation if was having a weak moment.

This was a privilege my butch friends and partners did not have. On the other hand, they did not have to deal with invisibility because people ASSUMED they were gay.

When my darling revealed his trans status to me, (I had known him for nine years at that time, and been in a relationship with him for two years.), I felt like the bottom had fallen out of my world. We had just moved to Cali (Long Beach) and found ourselves welcomed into a gay community which included many b-f people. I felt like I belonged for the first time in my life. I sobbed like a crazy woman when he told me.

I knew right from the first, however, that I would not leave him. I was his, he was mine, there was no separating us. As he eventually transitioned, I was surprised and shocked to see the difference in the way we were treated by the general public. We had never been mistreated in our preceeding orientation, but when seen as husband and wife we were welcomed into "the club".... the "normie" club. We were astonished at the difference ... and dismayed that this treatment was not given to people that had been identified as queerfolk.


A short list of privileges

Joint tax returns (actually we always filed joint, but as husband and wife were less likely to face hassles)
Shared work benefits - health insurance, life insurance, funeral leave for your partners relatives.
Able to apply for and be issued a marriage license (whether or not the state would have recognised the marriage were our status revealed
Able to adopt kids with both names on the birth certificate
Collect social security widows benefit
Hospital visitation with no hassle
Endless "family" memberships



ALL of these privileges should be "normal" for everyone.
Smooches,
Keri

[Dylan]

Whether I was given five dollars, or I 'stole' five dollars...I still have five dollars.

Whether the privilege is given or 'stolen', it's still granted. And if there weren't privilege in passing, people wouldn't stay in the closet nor would they 'pass'. It's because they don't want the discrimination (if we're talking 'staying in the closet').

And plenty of 'passing' people use the privilege they have been granted to oppress others in their same oppressed group. Some would even say that just staying in the closet oppresses others.

So, whether it's given freely or 'stolen', One still has the privilege. And it's 'given' in the first place, because One didn't bother to say anything about it/One didn't correct the assumption.


Dylan

[Nat]

I found this (http://zeroatthebone.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/invisible-identities-part-3-the-privileges-and-pains-of-passing/) an interesting read

Being able to pass is a privilege. Passing privilege means that others don’t grab my body or assistive devices, people I’ve never met don’t look at me with pity or disgust and I am less likely to face intrusive and upsetting questions. Those are amazing privileges that many of my fellows in the disability community don’t share with me. Passing privilege means that I am not watched suspiciously in stores, negative comments are not made about my features, white people feel comfortable to interact with me and strangers do not expect me to act as an example of what all people of my background are like. Those are incredible privileges that many of my background do not share.

First up, we must address the nature of passing. Sometimes it is active (one chooses to pass) and sometimes passive (one is passed). Sometimes it’s an interaction of expectation and experience, habit and circumstance. One cannot untangle one’s own efforts to pass or to not from the point of the idea of passing. That is, whether one passes or not is dependant on the outside observer. The whole idea of passing hinges not on what the (non)passer does, but on the observer’s response to that person. There’s an extent to which one can control it – and people have developed quite some techniques – but it’s not always a matter of choice as to whether to pass or not.

There’s a friction between passing and solidarity with one’s group. Those who can pass as being a member of a dominant group may miss out on many experiences and forms of discrimination that are held to be facets of that group’s commonalities. One of the main problems with passing is that in doing so an inequitable system is being held up (by those who pass others, by those choosing to pass). This is to say that passing supports the idea that equality, better treatment, is gained by melting into the dominant group. This is of course true, as is evident in, for instance, shifting definitions of whiteness; but one shouldn’t have to lose their own identity to the “good,” dominant identity in order to be dealt with well. We should work not until identities disappear but until they’re all okay to have.

That burden should be placed on those making the assumptions of – enforcing – default identities, not on the passers. Passers frequently report hostility from within their own groups, and accusations of not really being a member of their community from all sides. No one is less a member of the group for other people’s perceptions and it’s incredibly offensive to suggest otherwise. Passing is not always a choice; when it is, it’s presumptuous to resent someone for that and just outright wrong where safety is involved. How one deals with one’s own experiences of oppression is one’s own concern.

Being able to pass really messes with my head. I’ve frequent bouts of intense guilt about it, and I feel sick when people in my communities admire me for the features that make me more likely to pass (‘look at her beautiful skin.’ Increasingly I need to get the nearest bathroom and scrub and scrub where they grab my arm). Sometimes I don’t feel quite real or as though I’m cheating, an intruder in someone else’s identity. With regard to being disabled, this has some nasty consequences: in the past I’ve not gotten needs met, either because I can’t bear to out myself or because someone doesn’t quite think I’m truthful. Passing doesn’t mean I’m not struggling to remain standing while we’re talking. I struggle with passing and being passed. Sometimes I try and do it to feel safer (never safe) and lose my integrity. Sometimes I am passed, and it’s a mix of delight and loss and damage. Whatever I do, it’s never enough, I’m never enough.

Now I just mostly let people think what they will. The glowing effects largely disappear once I give off too many cues. Because so much of my identity, experience and expression is tied up with those of my identities that are invisible, the effects are frequently fleeting.

Being invisible doesn’t mean I face no discrimination but that I face less individualised discrimination in many contexts. Looking like I do has not prevented, upon the acknowledgement of my identity, looks of disgust, offensive remarks about my family, having to listen to racial hatred. It has not prevented the fear in me, the way I have not felt safe since I was a little girl. It has not prevented that I modify my dress, my speech, my movements, my stories in order to appear as “normal” as possible, just like anyone else trying to not face the wrath of whiteness. Attempting to invisibilise difference is hardly restricted to those of us who can pass.

The thing is, I’ve done everything. I’ve been loud and proud about my invisible identities. I’ve done my best to make them disappear. I’ve allowed myself to be passed, I’ve actively worked to pass. I’ve just been myself, I’ve made my identities explicit. At the end of all this anxiety and modification and thought and care, one thing remains constant: it’s the perceptions and actions of people in dominant bodies that count. When I pass, there’s still the weight of many manifestations of oppression on my shoulders. And irrespective of whether I pass or not, people outside of my groups still get to determine how I am treated and how I am perceived. There is no way to win.

[Mrs. Strutt]

I had the opportunity to think about this more over the past week after I commented on the other thread about having negative thoughts about privilege in light of my background.

My daughter and I drove to Gainesville, FL from the Tampa Bay area last Wednesday for my dad's surgery. When you live in a major metropolitan area in Florida, where life is associated with vacations, white sand beaches and the world's most famous mouse, it is easy to forget sometimes that Florida is in the South. The deep, deep South...a place where "different" is scarcely tolerated in certain areas.

As I entered more rural areas on my way to north Florida, the billboards and advertisements for Disney and waterfront living faded away to be replaced with common highway sights that can be found on any major interstate below the Mason-Dixon line: signs announcing ammunition for sale, Baptist/Pentacostal church advertisements exhorting passers-by to "Choose Life!", and "We Bare All!" billboards for truck stops featuring blondes that were more likely to be found in Beverly Hills, CA than in Beverly Hills, FL.

When I stopped for gas and some cold drinks, it occurred to me that Katie and I were attracting little notice: a woman and her child passing through, fellow travelers perhaps idly wondering as to the whereabouts of the husband that belonged to the rings on my left hand.

Had Mr. Strutt been with us, however, there would have been more than idle speculation. On our annual travels back to hys hometown in North Carolina, we have grown accustomed to looks and occasional raised eyebrows as those around us try to "figure it out." We have never felt threatened in any way, but the attitude is palpable and we have always taken precautions in the event that idle speculation ever becomes active threat.

So was the fact I "passed" as a straight woman a privilege in terms of "safety" for me and my child? Yes, it was. It also reminded me I can turn my "passing" on and off at will, for the reasons and situations I choose, while Mr. Strutt cannot.

Perhaps part of why I am uncomfortable with my "femme privilege" is because I do have that choice.

[mirandabrave]

Thanks for an terrific post. I agree in part (leaders of our movement do sacrifice the rights of trans people in a misguided, pragmatic and even self-hating attempt to lay a foundation for political success) and disagree (the political is personal: as a femme lesbian, I don't enjoy a privilege to pass - rather, I can elect to endure any uneasy detente the price of which is self immolation. I suppose a trans person could simply suffer living the life of the opposite gender, the one the world assigned at birth. So could we femme lesbians do that too. Is that life privledge? And if it is all about a private act in the bedroom, what does it mean when we take our lover's hand in the street because we love her? No, I would refine the argument: Attractive (not fat) apparently-gender confirming queer people are less threatening to the established order. We can choose in those moments of tacit acceptance to champion our trans brothers and sisters or we can leave them behind. Of course, when any of us is left behind, so are we all.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Mrs. Strutt,

Your post was fabulous. :hangloose:

[Heart]

So, whether it's given freely or 'stolen', One still has the privilege. And it's 'given' in the first place, because One didn't bother to say anything about it/One didn't correct the assumption.


Dylan

There are points well taken on both sides, however I disagree with the above part of your post. It is not the job of the person granted passing privilege to constantly correct assumptions based upon other people's biases.

And I still contend that while passing may be a tool, a strategy, a device, it does not meet the definition of privilege because at any moment it can be removed from you by others. In fact those that are passing face specific risks related to discovery. Think Brandon Teena.

Heart

[Dylan]

There are points well taken on both sides, however I disagree with the above part of your post. It is not the job of the person granted passing privilege to constantly correct assumptions based upon other people's biases.

And I still contend that while passing may be a tool, a strategy, a device, it does not meet the definition of privilege because at any moment it can be removed from you by others. In fact those that are passing face specific risks related to discovery. Think Brandon Teena.

Heart

I think if One is unhappy with the assumptions, then it IS One's job to constantly correct. I don't think One can be too upset that people around One think One is X if One doesn't take the initiative to correct those assumptions. If I'm read as female, I can internally be upset that I am not being read as male, but it's my job to correct those assumptions in some way. Yeah, it's tiring, but expecting Others to just 'know' something is placing the burden/blame on Others. I mean, I can question, "What am I doing that's making me 'look female'?", but most people are going to assume that if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, etc. There are ways to out Oneself if One chooses to do it...but many people don't choose to do it, because of the fact that they don't want to face the discrimination.

No, I agree with you...I don't think passing in and of itself is a privilege (until it is used privilegedly). I mean, being white is not a privilege until One steps outside of their house and is granted that privilege. Privilege like gender is determined by Others. However, One is still being granted the privilege and is still using the privilege of the dominant group. When I'm granted male privilege, it's usually cis-male privilege (trans-male privilege looks a little bit different). I'm still given the privilege, and yeah, it's a tightrope walk, and it can be taken away...but I still have the privilege. I totally get what you're saying. But I've still been granted that privilege.

I think if One chooses to 'pass' (i.e. stay in the closet), then the burden IS on One. I'm specifically talking about people who (for instance), change up pronouns when in conversations with co-workers/friends/family/whomever to 'appear' straight. Or, people who have smoke screen marriages to keep the illusion of Straightdom. I think if One knowingly chooses to pass in order to maintain the privilege, One can't really bitch later when One isn't read as a member of the oppressed group. I DO totally think there's something in experiencing that discrimination and living that discrimination that sets up the social cues of the oppressed group. There are just different social cues for (using the example of) straight people and queers. If One has spent their time 'polishing' their social cues to be read as straight, those polished social cues are not going to 'cut the mustard' when One enters a queer space, and One is going to be read as 'straight', because all of the social cues they're giving off are going to be read as such. This happens with some trans people also...no matter what they do, they're just read as their assigned gender (or they're read as queer). I think this happens with ANY person who (intentionally) 'passes' regardless what oppressed group they belong to. I think the nuances are (sometimes) incredibly subtle, but they're definitely there. I also think these nuances and the privilege granted causes a lot of the biphobia we see so much of, because (it's assumed) bi people get a lot of straight privilege, and they haven't lived the 'queer experience'...they're not treated with the same discrimination as out gays/lesbians, because 'they have one foot in Straightdom' (again, assumptions).

I think a lot of (what is tagged) homophobia is also cisnormative privilege, because a very masculine/butch (speaking in societal definitions of what is masculine/feminine) gay man is going to be treated a lot differently than a big flaming queen. A very feminine lesbian is going to be treated a lot differently than a very butch lesbian...even if the butch man/feminine lesbian come out of the closet. And you can see how the difference in treatment runs down from very feminine lesbians through andro lesbians and down to butch lesbians...you can see the same gamut run through butch gay men through andro gay men and down to the treatment of effeminate gay men. The more one 'conforms' (not quite the word I want) to what society says is appropriate, the more privilege One is granted ('assimilation' is rewarded...even if One is not necessarily 'trying' to assimilate, it is read as assimilation, and it's still rewarded).

I rambled all over the place, but basically, I think if One chooses to stay in the closet, One can't bitch later, because they weren't read This Way. One can't have One's cake and eat it too. One can't live in the closet when it's convenient (i.e. adhere to social cues of Straightdom), and then complain when in the company of the Oppressed group that they're being read as straight. I mean, if One is utilizing the tools of the oppressor (i.e. the social cues of the dominant group), it's not the burden of the oppressed group to 'just know' One is actually part of the group.


Dylan

[Heart]

Actually, I think there are differences between passing privilege related to race and that related to gender and mixing it all up together could cause confusion.

My ex partner was African American and could pass for white. Had she corrected people's assumptions, that is pretty much all she would have done all day, every day. Passing for white resulted in being constantly subjected to the kind of casual racism that most people would not have enacted in front of her if they knew she was a person-of-color.

So, the issue really wasn't so much correcting someone's innocent assumption that she was white (which she did with regularity), as much as it was having to confront people's unexamined and often subtle forms of racism constantly. I don't think you, Dylan, would say that it is the job of a person of color to have to constantly, daily educate white folks about their racism -- but that's basically what you are suggesting my ex, who had "passing privilege," should do. Maybe the problem isn't the assumption so much as it is the "ism" that invariably follows the assumption. That's the thing that makes passing not a real privilege in my book.

Heart

[Dylan]

Actually, I think there are differences between passing privilege related to race and that related to gender and mixing it all up together could cause confusion.

My ex partner was African American and could pass for white. Had she corrected people's assumptions, that is pretty much all she would have done all day, every day. Passing for white resulted in being constantly subjected to the kind of casual racism that most people would not have enacted in front of her if they knew she was a person-of-color.

So, the issue really wasn't so much correcting someone's innocent assumption that she was white (which she did with regularity), as much as it was having to confront people's unexamined and often subtle forms of racism constantly. I don't think you, Dylan, would say that it is the job of a person of color to have to constantly, daily educate white folks about their racism -- but that's basically what you are suggesting my ex, who had "passing privilege," should do. Maybe the problem isn't the assumption so much as it is the "ism" that invariably follows the assumption. That's the thing that makes passing not a real privilege in my book.

Heart

I hear a lot more 'gay' jokes now that I am assumed straight. If I don't want to hear the comments, it's my job to stand up and say something...I would expect an ally would do the same. No, it's not my job to educate people on queer issues, but it IS MY responsibility to put MY boundaries in place in what kind of comments I want to hear. I don't even have to out myself to do that. I don't have to out myself as trans to tell someone off-color comments are not acceptable. I mean, even when I 'looked' queer, I still heard comments every day...they just weren't presented in the same manner. Off color comments aren't really appropriate for any situation, are they? I think a privileged jackass is a privileged jackass. Is it the ism or the privilege that follows the assumption? Six of one/half dozen, probably, eh?

It may very well be quite different for POC, people with disabilities, or any other group to which I don't belong...I don't know as I don't belong to those groups.

However, if I don't want people to assume I'm cis, or if I don't want people to assume I'm straight, it's MY responsibility to deal with outing myself. It's also MY responsibility (when in trans or queer space) to let people know my status (if I want them to know). Blaming other people for NOT recognizing me is...well...kind of weak and lazy...especially if I'm giving off social cues that others may not recognize (i.e. getting upset because straight people can't read queer cues, or utilizing cis cues around trans people). I mean, straight people (who aren't culturally queer) don't know 'queer code'. They're going to look for obvious things like 'swishy' walking or 'limp wristed' behaviors (obvious 'stereotypical' behaviors). Straight people are not going to pick up on subtle cues (sometimes even not so subtle...I'm surprised how many straight people have rainbow flags, because they just love rainbows, and they have no idea it's actually a queer moniker) queers would pick up on. They're just not. If straight people don't speak MY language, and I want them to understand me, it's MY responsibility to put it in words they can understand. Whatever happens after that is on them. I'm not responsible for their (re)actions, but I can't very well complain if they don't 'see me' as queer or trans.

If I walk around all of the time saying 'straight/cis' things and acting 'straight/cis', I can't very well get upset if people then assume I'm straight/cis, right? I mean, that's just kind of a double bind. "I'm going to act straight and cis, and then when you make the assumption that I'm straight and cis, I'm going to blame you for making that assumption." "If I speak a code you don't understand, and then you don't understand me, I'm going to blame you for not understanding me." I mean, really?

And again, if someone is very invested in passing (again, living in the closet...and being conscious of passing...i.e. changing pronouns of partners, so as not to blow One's 'cover'...in other words, speaking the language/code of straight people), it's NOT the responsibility of Others to 'know' when One wants to be recognized. I think expecting people to know when One 'wants' to be recognized is a little...mmmmm...what's the word I want?...obnoxious?...arrogant?...double-bindy?...weak?...lazy?...I don't know the word I want.

I 'pass' (as straight) in limited interaction type environments. If I have to spend too much time with someone new, weirdness happens. And that weirdness happens, because I don't 'talk straight'. I talk in a language/code most straight people can't understand. But, I get the cis privilege, because cis people just don't think about trans people...at all. I just confuse people, because they can't say I'm 'gay', because I'm with Mahhh Woman (or they've met her, or I've brought her up in conversation). It just absolutely never dawns on them that I'm trans. They stare at me trying to figure out what the fuck, but it just never dawns on them. I would have to actually TELL them. Even if I fuck up and say something like, "My mother would have rather I got pregnant at 16..." (which just happened the other day), it just never dawns on them that I'm trans. They just look at me like I'm from another planet and say, "How would that happen?" They don't speak the code trans (or even queer) people would pick up on. If I want them to know, I have to tell them in THEIR language (as opposed to trans code). That's not educating (altho, it could very well lead to educating)...it's telling people "how that would happen". I can't very well get pissed off at cis people for 'not seeing me' as trans. I mean, yeah, I can get ticked that I constantly have to tell people, or that I have to out myself constantly, or that I have to explain something, but to get upset AT cis people or straight people, because I (me,me,me) don't want to open my own mouth? That's putting an awful lot of (my own) responsibility on other people, and expecting them to do a lot of work for some random acquaintance/client/co-worker/stranger/someone not really that attached to me.

If I just expected those people to 'just know', it's kind of self-centered, no? I mean, expecting people to 'just know' when I haven't given them any clue? Isn't that kind of like expecting people to 'just know' my toe hurts if I'm not limping or walking 'out of the norm' or saying 'ow'? And then, when I've acted like nothing happened, I'm then 'allowed' to be mad at them for not recognizing my hurting toe? That's ridiculous.

And if I'm in trans or queer space, it's also my responsibility to conform to trans/queer code if I want people to 'recognize' me. I mean, let's say, I walk into a gay/lesbian bar. I'm going to be immediately seen as suspect if I don't say something. If I don't follow the social cues like I speak the language, I'm going to be seen as a threatening interloper. How are queers supposed to 'just know' I'm queer unless I say something to them? And why is it THEIR fault if they can't 'read me'? Why is it someone else's responsibility to 'get me' and not my own responsibility to 'let them know'? I mean, is it a lesbian's job to 'just know' if I walk into a lesbian bar, and I don't give off the right set of social cues? If I lived somewhere where there were trans bars, it would also be my responsibility to speak the code for the patrons of that establishment. I mean, if I act like an ogling/scared/frustrated straight cis man, I can't very well get pissed off if people assume I'm an ogling or scared or frustrated straight cis man. Straight people are threatening in queer space. If I'm read as straight, I'm going to be seen as threatening, and people are probably going to keep their distance from me until I give off some sort of social cue. Same as if I walk too closely behind a woman on the street at night. Straight cis men are considered threatening to women. If I walk too closely behind a woman, I'm going to be seen as a threat. Who's responsibility is it to 'just know'? Is the responsibility on that woman, or is it on me?

Now, I'm not saying, I think it's right that straight people are seen as a threat to queers, but it's just the way it is because of history. And if I act straight and cis/give off the social cues of straight cis people, I'm going to be treated as such.


Dylan

[Heart]

Great post Dylan - though what we were talking about originally wasn't whose responsibility it is to deal with bias -- it was whether or not passing is a privilege. In fact, this discussion of responsibility is one of the ways in which passing is distinctly not a privilege, since true privilege requires no explanations or disclaimers.

Passing is a reality that exists due to the power pardigmn. It may be a choice someone makes as a strategy for survival, a by-product of their presentation, or something they actively try to confront. It may grant temporary comfort and ease or it may get someone killed. But what passing is not, in my book, is a privilege. Privilege doesn't put you at risk for bashing, lynching, or rape. I get that passing can feel like a privilege in comparison to the direct harassment that a person without the ability to pass might face, but feeling like a privilege is not the same as actual privilege. I think the difference is relevant.

Heart

ETA: In fact, for it to make sense to me, I need to uncouple the words "passing," and "privilege." We are not granted "passing privilege." Yes, my ex was sometimes granted white-skin privilege, (until she wasn't), I am sometimes granted straight privilege (until I'm not), a butch might be granted male privilege (until s/he isn't). It is a privilege to be white, straight, or male. It is not a privilige to pass as those things.

[Dylan]

Heart,

I think anyone who has privilege and claims to be aware of it has a responsibility to use that privilege in a way which doesn't oppress or threaten others.

If One consciously chooses to use that (passing) privilege as a weapon, they are no better than any other oppressor.

Passing for anything isn't a privilege on it's own (we've already agreed on that), but soaking up the privilege and then putting the blame on another group (i.e. because they don't 'recognize') is offensive...and I would even argue privileged in itself.


Dylan

[Heart]

Okay, we agree that passing in and of itself isn't a privilege.

I don't think I suggested anywhere that one should "soak up privilege and then put the blame on another group." Not sure how you got that out of what I have been saying. Or maybe you're just making a different point.

What I did say was that if a person of color is granted white skin privilege (for example), they may choose to confront the racism behind that each and every time it happens, or they may not. It is not, however their responsibility/job to confront it. It may not even be safe to do that.

Not sure we are communicating clearly here so don't want to appear to be having an argument we aren't really even having. Know what I mean?

Heart

[JustJo]

No, I would refine the argument: Attractive (not fat) apparently-gender confirming queer people are less threatening to the established order. We can choose in those moments of tacit acceptance to champion our trans brothers and sisters or we can leave them behind. Of course, when any of us is left behind, so are we all.

What I find interesting here is that with all of the argument on either side about how trans folks have been included or left behind, how femmes can pass or not, how racial appearance matters....we are all apparently willing to let such a messed up fat-phobic statement just slide on by.

Mirandavbrave...I don't know you, and I see that you're new to the site. So...I'll say this gently. Fat does not equal unattractive, or threatening. So...as you are championing your trans brothers and sisters so that they aren't left behind...you might want to think about including your brothers and sisters who are "fat" by your definition as well.

[Dylan]

Okay, we agree that passing in and of itself isn't a privilege.

I don't think I suggested anywhere that one should "soak up privilege and then put the blame on another group." Not sure how you got that out of what I have been saying. Or maybe you're just making a different point.

What I did say was that if a person of color is granted white skin privilege (for example), they may choose to confront the racism behind that each and every time it happens, or they may not. It is not, however their responsibility/job to confront it. It may not even be safe to do that.

Not sure we are communicating clearly here so don't want to appear to be having an argument we aren't really even having. Know what I mean?

Heart

Yeah, I get what you mean. I wasn't having an argument. I thought we were discussing.

I'm not saying anything about POC. I was talking more in terms of general power/privilege dynamics while adding from my own (queer, trans, female-bodied, butch) perspective. I think how anyone confronts the ism is upon the individual. I get that it may not be safe to do that...hence the reason I don't run through the streets announcing my trans status.

I do think though that if One receives the privilege, they DO have a responsibility to be aware of how their received privilege affects others. If I'm in the company of men who are reading me as straight and cis, and a sexist/homophobic/transphobic/racist/ism-ist comment is made, I think I have a responsibility to say something about that comment (if it's safe). Otherwise, it's condoning/perpetuating the ism. I'm a firm believer that complacency perpetuates.


Dylan

[Dylan]

What I find interesting here is that with all of the argument on either side about how trans folks have been included or left behind, how femmes can pass or not, how racial appearance matters....we are all apparently willing to let such a messed up fat-phobic statement just slide on by.

Mirandavbrave...I don't know you, and I see that you're new to the site. So...I'll say this gently. Fat does not equal unattractive, or threatening. So...as you are championing your trans brothers and sisters so that they aren't left behind...you might want to think about including your brothers and sisters who are "fat" by your definition as well.

I had a hard time understanding the entire post, but I read that part a different way. I read it as acknowledging fat phobia.


But Like I Said, I Had A Hard Time Understanding The Whole Post,
Dylan

[JustJo]

I had a hard time understanding the entire post, but I read that part a different way. I read it as acknowledging fat phobia.


But Like I Said, I Had A Hard Time Understanding The Whole Post,
Dylan

In the interests of fairness, I went back and attempted to read the statement as an acknowledgement of fat phobia. Unfortunately, I can't. I think it's the paranthetical nature of the "attractive (not fat)" comment. To me it reads as if there is an assumption that for a person to be attractive, then they must not be fat.

It would be different for me if the post read "slim, attractive, apparently-gender conforming"...but it doesn't.

No, I would refine the argument: Attractive (not fat) apparently-gender confirming queer people are less threatening to the established order. We can choose in those moments of tacit acceptance to champion our trans brothers and sisters or we can leave them behind. Of course, when any of us is left behind, so are we all.

[AtLast]

When I was femme in lesbian/gay society, I did not feel privileged for passing (as a straight woman). I felt both invisible and estranged, as the community I was involved with was very andro. I was femme with the additional negative (in their eyes) of being attracted to butch women (mmm-mmm-mmm.) This led to frequent taunting and dismissal of my reality as a lesbian acivist.

I was at all times aware, however, that I had the privlege of revealing or not revealing my orientation when in a work or straight social situation. I was aware that I could choose safety if I felt I needed to, or that I could choose to avoid confrontation if was having a weak moment.

This was a privilege my butch friends and partners did not have. On the other hand, they did not have to deal with invisibility because people ASSUMED they were gay.

When my darling revealed his trans status to me, (I had known him for nine years at that time, and been in a relationship with him for two years.), I felt like the bottom had fallen out of my world. We had just moved to Cali (Long Beach) and found ourselves welcomed into a gay community which included many b-f people. I felt like I belonged for the first time in my life. I sobbed like a crazy woman when he told me.

I knew right from the first, however, that I would not leave him. I was his, he was mine, there was no separating us. As he eventually transitioned, I was surprised and shocked to see the difference in the way we were treated by the general public. We had never been mistreated in our preceeding orientation, but when seen as husband and wife we were welcomed into "the club".... the "normie" club. We were astonished at the difference ... and dismayed that this treatment was not given to people that had been identified as queerfolk.


A short list of privileges

Joint tax returns (actually we always filed joint, but as husband and wife were less likely to face hassles)
Shared work benefits - health insurance, life insurance, funeral leave for your partners relatives.
Able to apply for and be issued a marriage license (whether or not the state would have recognised the marriage were our status revealed
Able to adopt kids with both names on the birth certificate
Collect social security widows benefit
Hospital visitation with no hassle
Endless "family" memberships



ALL of these privileges should be "normal" for everyone.
Smooches,
Keri


Absolutely and I smooch ya' back! One can experience some form of some kinds of privilege via passing. Yet, when it comes to legal status like what you list... forget it! Now if one lives in a country or state in which transpeople can legally transition as female or male, and do pass as that gender (transitioning is a long process with many options that one may or may not want to do- and not all transpeople are ever fully recognized as the gender of transition), they do gain access to privilege. IE., legal marriage, being treated as male in this society from society at large. However, what one internally does with privilege and behaves with it, is what is important to me.

I most certainly know het straight couples and cis men that do not use their privilege to oppress others. never have and never will. I have long-term close het couple friends and one FtM + straight woman that will not legally marry until same-sex marriage is the law of the land in the US. They have been together 35 years and 8 years, respectively. They have chosen as a matter of belief in civil liberties for all not to exercise their right to a legal privilege that I and others cannot. No, I am not knocking other people for their own personal choices about this, but, do appreciate the stand that these folks make and their personal sacrifice.

[Heart]

I do think though that if One receives the privilege, they DO have a responsibility to be aware of how their received privilege affects others. If I'm in the company of men who are reading me as straight and cis, and a sexist/homophobic/transphobic/racist/ism-ist comment is made, I think I have a responsibility to say something about that comment (if it's safe). Otherwise, it's condoning/perpetuating the ism. I'm a firm believer that complacency perpetuates.


Dylan

Yeah... my ex used to feel damned if she did and damned if she didn't. If she did she was faced with defensiveness, excuses, embarrassment minimizing, or outright anger. If she didn't she felt she was colluding. It was emotionally and socially exhausting.

[mirandabrave]

Thanks for taking this up. I absolutely meant this as an acknowledgement of fat phobia and I am sorry it did not come clearly across. I've been quite obese and slim (roughly half my life spent in each category) and I will tell you it is as tough being fat (maybe tougher) that being an out dyke. (I use "fat" assertively, as I do "dyke' in this context.) I really was trying to say - and the parens did not communicate it as I had intended - that it is being "socially" attractive (not the eye of the beholder but the eye of social conformity) provides a significant social advantage. People with these advantages have a special chance to act politically and for justice.

Thanks for the chance to clarify.

[mirandabrave]

Hope you see my explanation - I am new here and I am not sure my clarification posted in the right place. I was being fat positive - I meant to be, but can understand how it wasn't clear. Hope my explanatory post pops up on the thread. I am sorry that my 100% alignment with your feelings instead caused you consternation (apparently due to a badly placed parenthesis). But I appreciate the chance to explain.

[JustJo]

Hope you see my explanation - I am new here and I am not sure my clarification posted in the right place. I was being fat positive - I meant to be, but can understand how it wasn't clear. Hope my explanatory post pops up on the thread. I am sorry that my 100% alignment with your feelings instead caused you consternation (apparently due to a badly placed parenthesis). But I appreciate the chance to explain.

Thanks mirandabrave...I appreciate your coming back to clarify. I know that the written word can be easily misunderstood despite all of our best efforts on both ends of the communication. :rrose:

[iamkeri1]

Heart,
I disagree with you on this point, at least from how I have experienced it. In and earlier post I made this point.

I was at all times aware, however, that I had the privlege of revealing or not revealing my orientation when in a work or straight social situation. I was aware that I could choose safety if I felt I needed to, or that I could choose to avoid confrontation if was having a weak moment.

This was a privilege my butch friends and partners did not have.

Mrs. Strutt made a similar point in her post

So was the fact I "passed" as a straight woman a privilege in terms of "safety" for me and my child? Yes, it was. It also reminded me I can turn my "passing" on and off at will, for the reasons and situations I choose, while Mr. Strutt cannot.

I believe that at least the freedom to make this choice is a privilege.

Smooches,
Keri

Great post Dylan - though what we were talking about originally wasn't whose responsibility it is to deal with bias -- it was whether or not passing is a privilege. In fact, this discussion of responsibility is one of the ways in which passing is distinctly not a privilege, since true privilege requires no explanations or disclaimers.

Passing is a reality that exists due to the power pardigmn. It may be a choice someone makes as a strategy for survival, a by-product of their presentation, or something they actively try to confront. It may grant temporary comfort and ease or it may get someone killed. But what passing is not, in my book, is a privilege. Privilege doesn't put you at risk for bashing, lynching, or rape. I get that passing can feel like a privilege in comparison to the direct harassment that a person without the ability to pass might face, but feeling like a privilege is not the same as actual privilege. I think the difference is relevant.

Heart

ETA: In fact, for it to make sense to me, I need to uncouple the words "passing," and "privilege." We are not granted "passing privilege." Yes, my ex was sometimes granted white-skin privilege, (until she wasn't), I am sometimes granted straight privilege (until I'm not), a butch might be granted male privilege (until s/he isn't). It is a privilege to be white, straight, or male. It is not a privilige to pass as those things.

[Heart]

Yes, Keri I see the point that you and Mrs. Strutt have made -- which is the very point that I take issue with. Yes, I see that you may be granted straight privilege, that you may get to make a choice about whether or not to reveal your queer-ness in certain situations, but I don't define that choice (to pass) as a privilege. I define it as a strategy you are using to avoid conflict or danger or confrontation (or whatever in the given situation). If you really had straight privilege, there would be no need to employ the strategy of passing.

I am not denying that passing exists and can be used to one's advantage, what I am suggesting is that we not call that "privilege." Privilege, IMO, has a very specific context and meaning and to use it to define passing just feels problematic to me. For one thing, what would happen if, for example, someone found out something about you being queer and decided to out you. The inherent danger in passing is the risk of being outed -- and the passer has no control over that.

Calling passing a privilege makes it sound like an empowered thing, something that the passer has complete control over -- but that is not the case. The very nature of passing includes an aspect of stealth, subterfuge, (or stealing as I said before), and that puts the passer at risk.

Okay, I think I've now said what I'm trying to say nine ways to Sunday, so if I haven't made it clear by now I should just shut up. ;)

Heart

[firie]

Calling passing a privilege makes it sound like an empowered thing, something that the passer has complete control over -- but that is not the case. The very nature of passing includes an aspect of stealth, subterfuge, (or stealing as I said before), and that puts the passer at risk.

Okay, I think I've now said what I'm trying to say nine ways to Sunday, so if I haven't made it clear by now I should just shut up. ;)

Heart

No! Don't shut up! I have really been interested in your thoughts here. I hate that you feel you are banging your head on the proverbial wall, as I am with you, and have to say thanks for expressing so well a dilemma that I have had a hard time of really honing in on within myself and my experience as a queer and someone who is read as straight--grappling with the fact that I know I certainly feel safer in my skin than so many others might. So what do we call that? Because I totally get you when you say that someone who passes can't own that privilege and that it can be taken from that person at any point. I hear you there.

[AtLast]

Yes, Keri I see the point that you and Mrs. Strutt have made -- which is the very point that I take issue with. Yes, I see that you may be granted straight privilege, that you may get to make a choice about whether or not to reveal your queer-ness in certain situations, but I don't define that choice (to pass) as a privilege. I define it as a strategy you are using to avoid conflict or danger or confrontation (or whatever in the given situation). If you really had straight privilege, there would be no need to employ the strategy of passing.

I am not denying that passing exists and can be used to one's advantage, what I am suggesting is that we not call that "privilege." Privilege, IMO, has a very specific context and meaning and to use it to define passing just feels problematic to me. For one thing, what would happen if, for example, someone found out something about you being queer and decided to out you. The inherent danger in passing is the risk of being outed -- and the passer has no control over that.

Calling passing a privilege makes it sound like an empowered thing, something that the passer has complete control over -- but that is not the case. The very nature of passing includes an aspect of stealth, subterfuge, (or stealing as I said before), and that puts the passer at risk.

Okay, I think I've now said what I'm trying to say nine ways to Sunday, so if I haven't made it clear by now I should just shut up. ;)

Heart

Has been quite clear to me!

What you bring up about control is critical, I believe. Absolutely, the inherent danger in passing is the risk of being outed. I honestly think that within our own community this risk is not well understood and at times, not guarded as it should be.

Perhaps this is due to our having more information about transgenderism surrounding us that some take it for granted that.. of course people understand, its no big deal to out a transgendered person. It is a great big deal outside of queerdom and very dangerous. Think about how many transwomen femmes, fully transitioned, do not tell tell butch dates for a very long time and steer clear of intimacy until they feel safe. Very safe. The fact remains that MtF's are at the top of the list for hate crimes, physical as well as emotional violence and abuse.

I absolutely do not out trans friends to anyone. Even if asked if they are. And even to people I am certain are not transphobic. It is not my place. I learned a lot about this from my late partner's children as they have a trans co-parent that was/is very much in their lives. They both went through a lot of negative stuff growing up in a trans/queer family and it was entirely up to them to offer any information about their Dad to anyone they met via me.

No, passing just does not fit with privilege to me at all in this context.

[Heart]

No! Don't shut up! I have really been interested in your thoughts here. I hate that you feel you are banging your head on the proverbial wall, as I am with you, and have to say thanks for expressing so well a dilemma that I have had a hard time of really honing in on within myself and my experience as a queer and someone who is read as straight--grappling with the fact that I know I certainly feel safer in my skin than so many others might. So what do we call that? Because I totally get you when you say that someone who passes can't own that privilege and that it can be taken from that person at any point. I hear you there.

Firie -- I might call passing a strategy or, at times, an advantage rather than a privilege. Or I might just call it... passing. Passing isn't something you are necessarily doing in an active sense. It's something that is done towards you based upon dominant assumptions and biases. You are passed. This brings things back around to Dylan's assertion of responsibility. Do you proclaim every time you are passed, that you are in fact queer, NOT straight?
This is the tension and dilemma of passing/being passed. This is what can cause feelings of collusion, guilt, and exhaustion.

I am most likely mistaken for straight frequently. I don't proclaim my queerness all day every day. Passing in this manner is not something I feel responsible for. If homophobia/heterosexism is enacted in front of me, I confront it - often by revealing that I am queer, (but not always). Do I have an advantage over someone who cannot disappear into being straight-looking? Yes, I do. I have the advantage of passing. But I am aware that this advantage can turn on a dime and be the very thing that harms me. Passing itself has been the cause of queer-bashing.

Heart

[AtLast]

So, whether it's given freely or 'stolen', One still has the privilege. And it's 'given' in the first place, because One didn't bother to say anything about it/One didn't correct the assumption.


Dylan

Just thinking about this in terms of being a FIB that at times is viewed as a man/male. In most cases, I state I object to being called sir, etc. to make the point that I am a woman... a masculine woman. I don't want to pass for male. It is important to me that female masculinity be recognized. There are times when this happens in situations in which another is treating me from a place (theirs) male privilege. Usually this is when I am with a femme, actually. If I allow this, I personally feel I am accepting traditional patriarchal male privilege which I detest.

Now, in situations in which there is possible violence, I don't do this. Although, I have to say that there is that part of me that continually scans for possible danger in most places. Here, it is all about homophobia (and/or transphobia as that can be another perception coming my way).

Yanno.... we just can't win for losing... A complex set of equations no matter how one looks at it. And a stressful equation all around.

[Enigma]

Thank you so much for starting this thread, Nat. The topics of passing and privilege are fascinating and fill my mind with questions about the phenomenon of discrimination, in whatever form it comes. It occurs to me that none of us are immune from prejudice, whether guilty of it ourselves or indicting others.

Jean Cocteau said that "all privilege leads directly to the guillotine". Like a mask, no matter how beautiful, the privilege of passing for something "other" obscures the true self. I think about that a lot. Passing may confer privileges but the beneficiary invariably pays, the amount dependent on the degree to which that passing aligns or is at odds with one's identity and the expectations of others. Whether the self is camouflaged by circumstance, perception or design, all the accolades, critiques and condemnation are based on a fiction. Attribution is given to the alter ego. If privilege is then "presumed" by either those in power or by those who are discriminated against, death of the self comes twice. Once because one is unknown and again when condemned for what one is not.

I recall a story about a man from the islands who was sold to a family for slave labor when he was an infant. He was never given a name, told his age nor spoken to. He recounted that the worst part of his struggle was not his servitude but his utter lack of an identity. His story of being unnamed and unknown reminds me of those who live invisible lives on the margins of acceptability. They are the blank slates upon which others' prejudices and projected self references are writ.

What of the complexities of passing and presumed extreme privilege bestowed upon one by nothing other than an accident of birth? How does one quiet the clamoring of the social climbers that surround those who remain hidden precisely because they want to be truly known? Those who want to be accepted for who they are outside the cliched conclusions about derivative power and protected from those who want it?

I know a girl whose appearance is at once both her truth and her disguise. She hides behind long flowing blonde hair, delicate features and a painfully shy demeanor from those, who if the truth of her birth were known, would be inauthentic themselves. Ironically, it is by passing for what she is not that she is able to truly be herself and discern the truth in others. Her blonde hair and fair skin hide the fact that her mother is a black celebrity. By hiding, she has a voyueristic view into the psyches and unadulterated prejudices of those around her. Her radiance and beauty is a disguise of sorts, too. It masks the loneliness she feels and she is glad for that.

Whether revered or reviled, the self is at least a foundation from which to interact with the world. But some are never seen or worse, denied legitimacy. Sometimes, members of the very communities that are trying to dismantle identity discrimination fall into defensive traps; policing perimeters based on a person's appearance and presumptions about their histories and character. This kind of 'profiling' risks belying not just the individual's truth but reinforces visible and stereotypical markers of all groups' conformities. The marginalized become perpetrators of that which they despise. How often the cruelest cuts come from those about whom one cares the most. So for some, passing can render them orphan of sorts, even when born to castes that are considered untouchable.

To actually exist to people other than oneself is the only way a person has even a hope of mutual regard. Without that, a connection may be intense but one-sided and like gravity, the influence profound but unseen. To what degree is one a slave to social mirrors? At what risk does one break them? What is the price of truth to oneself and others? Sometimes the truth has very grave consequences indeed and not just for the "passenger". I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the balance, on the scales upon which one measures cost and expresses or suppresses according to social perception, reflection and consequence. The answer lies in whether they and those around them can withstand the image shining back from the glass for the mirrors are held in not just their own but by so many other hands. If that mirror cracks and wounds are inflicted, whose hands bear the stains? What good is the chest-inflated pride of belonging if that membership is wielded in a way that causes collateral damage? Fire, whether friendly or not, can still destroy those with whom one shares the trenches.

One of my favorite stories of an insider's view of passing, privilege and the misdistribution of power is from the matriarch of a family who describes herself and her brood of thirteen children as "the league of nations of the hood". The parents have created a rainbow of colors and ethnic backgrounds for the children. Their mother says that separately they each pass for what they are not and are vulnerable in different ways. But together? She sighs with satisfaction and laughs. She says, "Together? When we walk down the street, everybody knows we are a FORCE".

I often think of her insight and words by which she truly lives. When we are together it is our differences that make us stronger.

[Kätzchen]

Dear Enigma,

I want to not let the opportunity pass to say that your words - the way your process complicated connections that intersect, intertwine and are deeply integrated in social settings as to identity, privilege, power, and a host of other processes - is beautifully stated and I feel enlightened and humbled and honored, as if all at once, to have partaken of the 'supper of manna' you have left for us to nourish our minds with.

*thank you so much*

~ALK

[chai~]

~bookmarking~

[TheresaD]

A note about the word "Passing" and its problematic use with transfolks -

Although it does appear (from the article I quoted) that some transfolks are fine with using the word "passing" to describe the experience of being interpreted as the gender one is, I can imagine for others that using the term "passing" in this way may seem self-negating.

I met a wonderful and funny transwoman years ago at a Queer Conference down at UT Austin. She said somebody asked her once about how she felt about not passing. She said she asked that person, "Not passing as what?? I look just like a transwoman." Still, many transfolks want to be interpreted as a "man" or a "woman" without the qualifier of "trans." I'm not sure "passing" is the most accurate word for that, and I don't want to impose it on anybody who feels uncomfortable with applying that word to theirself. (<--I know this use of the word "their" is extremely awkward, but I'm experimenting with the singular, gender-neutral use of the word "they" as it's the most commonly used gender-neutral use to spring naturally from the English language (I think)).

If you feel like there are privilege differences between being seen and understood as the gender you are, and *not* being seen and understood as the gender you are, please don't hesitate to contribute to this thread using whatever language suits you best.

Though I am not trans and cannot speak from a trans perspective, I would imagine trans people who are interpreted 24/7 as their gender may run into more trouble at airports, at gyms, in deciding when (and if?) to come out with potential new relationships, when applying for jobs where anxieties may arise about whether your references will use your correct pronoun/name, in the event of arrest, in the event of medical emergency, and also in the event of one's death if the news gets a hold of the story and spins it in a transphobic way. I can also imagine a transperson with this experience would be privy to transphobic commentary from cisgender folks who have no clue, and that this would be insidious and damaging in its unique way.

These are just some of the things I can imagine *might* be issues for transfolks who are interpreted as cisgender, but like I said, I'm not trans (in that sense) and I cannot fully know what it's like to either pass or not pass as the gender I actually feel that I am. (In fact, I never feel as though I pass as the gender I am because I am bigender).

When I "pass" for straight or even cisgender, it is a case of passing as something I am not. In this way, "passing" is a very different thing for me than the "passing" described in the quote from the perspective of a transwoman.

There are so many wonderful, thoughtful and intelligent things you've said here and I won't bore you with addressing every one. Needless to say, you hit the nail on the hear about transfolk NOT wanting to be identified as trans, but just identified as there physical and emotional gender that they are or are becoming. Very well done. :)

[Quintease]

This is quite an involved thread so I'll have to read it properly later. A couple of comments struck me, about outing a trans person.

My husband no longer considers himself trans, so the idea of 'passing' is irrelevant, he is male. Unfortunately other people, including people in the workplace and close friends, have no issue with 'outing' him. It's almost as if, because he doesn't 'look' trans, some people feel the need to 'warn' others that he is not really a man, that he is trans. I hate the gossipy nature of it and the total disrespect for his identity.

[lisa93]

yes it sure is