The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[June]

Jen -- My post wasn't directed at anyone. I think it's fine to discuss Buddies and how that would work, but everyone is going to have a different idea. I didn't think that you were asking for change, but you know, I've been around this block a time or two, so I can kind of "Feel" things so I wanted to be clear what *our* responsibilities were, and were not.

Don't give up, I think there is a lot of important stuff being discussed in here!

June (Moderator Voice, not moderating)

<3

[christie]

I am not asking for someone suggested it and I have read several pages trying to figure out who...but really I give up.

Softness mentioned how unsafe it was and I was mulling over how maybe same gender would help. Unfortunately for us all, this is how my brain works.

I could not do it and would never ask anyone else to do something I would not do myself.

I thought we were discussing, I am sorry if it again sounded like I was asking for change.
Again and example about how some of us have differences communicating. Maybe I am too hyper focused to be on this thread.

Jen -

It was me who first brought up a buddy/peer system and how it might supplement, not replace, the current system. I completely understand how the site cannot be liable for such a thing, but I do think it already exists on an unspoken level - I know that there are times when I am not sure my words will convey/be interpreted as I want them to and I might ask Jess to take a gander before I hit send.

Like June, I feel that there are some important issues being discussed here. I have stuck in this conversation much more than I do others because I think its terribly important and well, I have much more investment in it. I do think that the perception of the mythical pass exists and do agree that everyone should be accountable to the same set of rules.

One of the things I have been pondering the last couple of days is how the perception of the mythical pass comes to be. Is it when we see a post prefaced with "I am ____________."? That blank could be me saying that I am in fibro fog or it could be someone on the spectrum saying they are neuro-diverse.

In making that preface, am I asking for special consideration (a pass) for the words I am about to post? Or am I clarifying mitigating circumstances which might explain how my words might be understood/misunderstood?

I know that I have done this in posts. I have been thinking about why I (or someone else) might make the preface and what the intent of the preface is.... and I don't have any answers yet.

What do ya'll think?

[Apocalipstic]

Jen -

It was me who first brought up a buddy/peer system and how it might supplement, not replace, the current system. I completely understand how the site cannot be liable for such a thing, but I do think it already exists on an unspoken level - I know that there are times when I am not sure my words will convey/be interpreted as I want them to and I might ask Jess to take a gander before I hit send.

Like June, I feel that there are some important issues being discussed here. I have stuck in this conversation much more than I do others because I think its terribly important and well, I have much more investment in it. I do think that the perception of the mythical pass exists and do agree that everyone should be accountable to the same set of rules.

One of the things I have been pondering the last couple of days is how the perception of the mythical pass comes to be. Is it when we see a post prefaced with "I am ____________."? That blank could be me saying that I am in fibro fog or it could be someone on the spectrum saying they are neuro-diverse.

In making that preface, am I asking for special consideration (a pass) for the words I am about to post? Or am I clarifying mitigating circumstances which might explain how my words might be understood/misunderstood?

I know that I have done this in posts. I have been thinking about why I (or someone else) might make the preface and what the intent of the preface is.... and I don't have any answers yet.

What do ya'll think?

I have seen "I am____" or "I have________" used both ways. As a please let me know if you can't understand me, I think it good and very useful. If it is a preface to a mean spirited or abusive post, it seems like BS.

Thank you so much for letting me know who it was who suggested the Buddy thing, I could not find it and was starting to think I was hallucinating. :) and yes, I get what you are saying I sometimes have asked you, Bit, Adele and other people to see if I am making sense. But it has been a "making sense" thing, not a saying something terrible then using AS or fibro fog as an excuse.

I think we all interpreted the words "mythical pass" differently. But I think for me, I have come to see it as using being differently able as an excuse rather than an explanation for breaking the TOS. I know it is a fine distinction but does that make sense?

My problem is I keep wanting an logical answer and a logical plan and I am realizing there is not want to be one. That there is not going to be a clear cut way this is handled. That everyone does not need clear cut answers and structure like I do. :) It is a learning curve for me and I appreciate the patience of everyone who has read my posts.

Not everyone wants to be helped. Some people want to cling to feeling unsafe, just as some people want to cling to making poor interpersonal choices when something as simple as an ignore button might just do the trick.

[christie]

I think we all interpreted the words "mythical pass" differently. But I think for me, I have come to see it as using being differently able as an excuse rather than an explanation for breaking the TOS. I know it is a fine distinction but does that make sense?

Not everyone wants to be helped. Some people want to cling to feeling unsafe, just as some people want to cling to making poor interpersonal choices when something as simple as an ignore button might just do the trick.

Jen - I snipped your post because these two points are so very well stated. the explanation vs. excuse issue as well as persons wanting to cling to feeling unsafe.

Thank you for being so clear on points that I couldn't seem to get across.

I'm still stuck on explanation vs. excuse. I see it, as well as so many other issues with online forums, being very subjective. I might see it as explanation - another as excuse and we still have the issue of the mythical pass. Make sense?

I'm off to a day of all things busy - having my car totaled yesterday was NOT on the to-do list and just added to the physical shit AND the stress level. Yay me.

Will be back later - interested in how others feel about explanation vs. excuse.

[AtLast]

Um... the same gender discussion is bothering me because it feels like all butches may be viewed as male. I am not male. Also, some femmes (as well as some butches, both male and female identifiied and transmen) are attracted are attracted to femmes (or transmen or male identified butches).

I may very well be misunderstanding this. It is a sensitive subject sometimes for many. It is for me when I feel that all butches are being identified as male. Again, maybe I am misreading things.

Personally, a buddy is a buddy to me and I have femme buddies, butch buddies, trans buddies and het or bi buddies. None of which I am drawn to sexually.

As far as a buddy system for DA when posting, it can be a good thing at times. LOL, there have been some times, I know that my thoughts might be mingled with a bad pain day or PTSD issues. This could (not always) influence how I am perceiving posts/discussions, especially more heated ones. Maybe running a response by a buddy isn't a bad idea for me.

Hummm... but maybe just by virtue of feeling that I need to run it by a buddy means I should just calm down and not post at that time. I have certainly had times like this!

Something else I am thinking about is that sometimes DA people are very hard on themselves. I feel like there is a lot of clarity from folks here in the thread. Helpful and genuine information.

[Apocalipstic]

Um... the same gender discussion is bothering me because it feels like all butches may be viewed as male. I am not male. Also, some femmes (as well as some butches, both male and female identifiied and transmen) are attracted are attracted to femmes (or transmen or male identified butches).

I may very well be misunderstanding this. It is a sensitive subject sometimes for many. It is for me when I feel that all butches are being identified as male. Again, maybe I am misreading things.

Personally, a buddy is a buddy to me and I have femme buddies, butch buddies, trans buddies and het or bi buddies. None of which I am drawn to sexually.

As far as a buddy system for DA when posting, it can be a good thing at times. LOL, there have been some times, I know that my thoughts might be mingled with a bad pain day or PTSD issues. This could (not always) influence how I am perceiving posts/discussions, especially more heated ones. Maybe running a response by a buddy isn't a bad idea for me.

Hummm... but maybe just by virtue of feeling that I need to run it by a buddy means I should just calm down and not post at that time. I have certainly had times like this!

Something else I am thinking about is that sometimes DA people are very hard on themselves. I feel like there is a lot of clarity from folks here in the thread. Helpful and genuine information.


Will respond to the rest of your post later when I have time to think....But I did want to make very clear that I do not see Butches as Male...unless they see themselves as male and that is something I have to work to be honest.and still that is something I am working on.

My partner is a Female Butch. We are not stone and in no way fall into a 100% boy/girl thing except in looks.

Sorry if I sounded that way, when I say Male I mean someone who is FTM or who sees themselves as male.

[SuperFemme]

Jen -

It was me who first brought up a buddy/peer system and how it might supplement, not replace, the current system. I completely understand how the site cannot be liable for such a thing, but I do think it already exists on an unspoken level - I know that there are times when I am not sure my words will convey/be interpreted as I want them to and I might ask Jess to take a gander before I hit send.

Like June, I feel that there are some important issues being discussed here. I have stuck in this conversation much more than I do others because I think its terribly important and well, I have much more investment in it. I do think that the perception of the mythical pass exists and do agree that everyone should be accountable to the same set of rules.

One of the things I have been pondering the last couple of days is how the perception of the mythical pass comes to be. Is it when we see a post prefaced with "I am ____________."? That blank could be me saying that I am in fibro fog or it could be someone on the spectrum saying they are neuro-diverse.

In making that preface, am I asking for special consideration (a pass) for the words I am about to post? Or am I clarifying mitigating circumstances which might explain how my words might be understood/misunderstood?

I know that I have done this in posts. I have been thinking about why I (or someone else) might make the preface and what the intent of the preface is.... and I don't have any answers yet.

What do ya'll think?

you are right spot on about it being a subjective thing.
look around the website...how many veiled references do we see everyday? stuff that is clearly meant for someone, whomever that someone might be.

again, the mythical pass is about somebody repeatedly breaking the TOS, being worked with for months, and continuing to break the TOS.

nothing more. nothing less. i know that i try to preface my DA in a post if I feel like I am not being clear. i don't even know why i feel the need to do that.

however, when somebody makes racist, sexist, or personal attacks and then comes back a few hours later and use the da for an excuse? then does the same thing two days later? i have to wonder, and will usually open a dialogue with the person.

i love the buddy system that is here, on an unspoken level. i think both june and medusa have addressed the liability issues of a site initiated system.

unrelated: pls be good to yourself, because it sounds awful that car wreck. i am glad you are still here, and thankful for you not being permanently damaged.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=apocalipstic;159131]

My problem is I keep wanting an logical answer and a logical plan and I am realizing there is not want to be one. That there is not going to be a clear cut way this is handled. That everyone does not need clear cut answers and structure like I do. :) It is a learning curve for me and I appreciate the patience of everyone who has read my posts.

i, too, appreciate logical answers, apocalipstic. clear cut responses and structure, yes.

personal observations/question: this site is easy for me to follow, but this thread is not because it seems to me that all might be lovely if i 'agree' and not so much when i cannot 'agree' or be all be on the same page about .... topic... or something [else?] .

the 'somebody' for months breaking a TOS? that's what this is about- thread?

my way of seeing things -- far less people who truly are in need a pass for mistakes are given actual pardons and might even be considered the worst [insert: trouble-making]! there are a lot more people [in my experiences - thinking of the neuro thread & police, for example] who are the worst and do receive passes.


:bunchflowers:

[June]

Okay - Here is something that I hope will be VERY clear, concise and will not leave any doubts for anyone, regardless of ability. If it is not clear, please PM me.

Beginning right now:

You (all of you) will immediately stop referring to, making reference to or insinuating anything about anyone who is a member of this online forum, or any online forum you have ever participated in.

You (all of you) will immediately stop the passive aggressive/thinly veiled POKING that is going on. I see it, and I understand it, and it needs to stop.

You (all of you) are free to discuss how having a "Pass" here or in real life makes you feel. You may only speak from your "me" place. It is not okay for anyone to try to impose how someone SHOULD or SHOULD NOT feel.

If this thread continues to be the jousting, poking at each other kind of thing it's become, I will close it down.

--June (Moderating)

[Daywalker]

Thanks Juney

I had a couple paragraphs typed up last week to post in here, and wanted
to marinate on the topic a bit...came back, read some and decided not to
participate. The direction of the thread seem to have gone off course from
then til now. I will say that I've been guilty of giving some folks a 'pass'.
After a while though, I've revoked said pass because frankly I did not give
it thinking certain behaviors would be perpetual...that's all I have to add.

:breakdance:


:daywalker:

[DamselFly]

i am not invisible when dealing with certain of the different ways in which i have to operate in the world, esp. when outside my home. i have severe optical problems and often must wear both an eye patch and dark glasses. due both to MS and RSD, i use a fore-arm crutch to aid me with keeping my balance while walking. when faced with negotiating a large store, i often use a motorized cart when available to avoid the overwhelming fatique factor. i must also rely on notes to help me remember what has gone on and what i am currently supposed to be doing, due to memory impairment from both the MS and a stroke. i also have emotional lability which flairs when i am under stress.
i do not say any of this to get pity. i only say it to explain part of what makes up the complex person that i am. i do not ask for any pass but sometimes do need help. i do find that extremely difficult to ask for. when offered, i am cautious about accepting it. i have had so many people say, "call if you need anything", which has turned out to be either "don't bother me" or some sort of misleading way of just saying goodbye. please don't offer help if you do not mean it. that results in at best confusion and at worst feelings of almost humiliation for me. i cannot speak for anyone else. being so obviously different in a world which glorifies fitness and ability is difficult. i spent the first half of my life as a professor and then librarian. i planned to spend the second half of my life as a scholar and writer. i now cannot even read a chapter in the books i love w/o getting severe eye pain and often a crushing migraine. i must partition out my time on the computer in terms of an hour or two. i rely on the wonderful service offered by the Library of Congress which provides books on tape and digital formats. unfortunately, most of books i studied i was lucky even to find them translated into english. they are not available, nor will be, in the LC collection. so now i am starting over, wondering what to do. all this is made harder by the fact that i can't drive and live in an relatively isolated area. i rely on my room-mate for drives anywhere. luckily, she offered that as part of my moving here and does not mind driving me to dr.s and other places. i miss the independence i had with forms of public transportation but made the trade-off to get out the extremely stressful situation in which i lived before. i miss having friends close by, though. or even on the phone. it is easier for me to talk than it is to read or to write. i miss having a relationship, though at times i wonder what extraordinary butch would face the extra complications a relationship w/me would entail. that is not to say i indulge in self-pity, and i hope that this post does not convey self-pity. i am a femme generous of heart and mind, courageous in spirit, and i believe myself to be beautiful, as is every femme in whatever situation she find herself. every femme, every butch, has complications in life with to deal-some are more obvious than others. in a way i even count myself lucky-mine are so obvious that they do not sneak up on me or anyone else. i know what i have to handle, and i have found through refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, and in the Tao to have the resilience to face the expected and the unexpected. to change somewhat the mantra of Pop-Eye, "i yam what i yam, and i love who i am." i know that i have friends who also love me, hope to find more here, and perhaps that special butch who will also love and appreciate me.
this post is my story. thank you for reading it.
DamselFly

[violaine]

http://www.connecticutspecialeducationlawyer.com/occasional-rants/phoebe-prince-bullying-disabilities-and-the-eggshell-skull/

[Andrew, Jr.]

Damselfly,

I thing it is hard for "normal" people to really understand or grasp those of us who are different. They may see one thing, but behind the front door of the house is something different. Make sense?

You rock, by the way.

[violaine]

i still don't know what normal is- and the word really gets tossed around- normal this, and normal that since childhood. sure, some people will miss 'seeing' things all together, or else only 'see' what they want either because they cannot conceive of another way of thinking [maybe it is their wiring?] or for whatever other reasons.



in the name of 'normality' an abundance of unspoken 'standards' get set and designed for the majority --> of 'normals,' andrew, with understanding that they are automatically understood. sometimes, they [people/rules] change without warning. worse, when changes are meant as a joke on people yet appear to be serious - or the other way round. where does this leave atypically wired people - who want to partake in their environment like everyone else?

[christie]

i still don't know what normal is- and the word really gets tossed around- normal this, and normal that since childhood. sure, some people will miss 'seeing' things all together, or else only 'see' what they want either because they cannot conceive of another way of thinking [maybe it is their wiring?] or for whatever other reasons.



in the name of 'normality' an abundance of unspoken 'standards' get set and designed for the majority --> of 'normals,' andrew, with understanding that they are automatically understood. sometimes, they [people/rules] change without warning. worse, when changes are meant as a joke on people yet appear to be serious - or the other way round. where does this leave atypically wired people - who want to partake in their environment like everyone else?

Belle - I think both you and Andrew bring up really good points about "normal" and the unspoken expectations/standards/rules. Its always been these things that were Bratboy's biggest obstacles. I may have mentioned this before, but he had to learn to read body language, facial expressions and to listen for tone when interacting. He was often a very literal child and I know he has had the same difficulty in online forums.

I think that sarcasm in an online forum is difficult for anyone to "read" unless they know the person making the post and can "hear" how they might say the same thing if in real-time. For me, if I am uncertain as to the intent of the typed words, unless its something that directly impacts me, I tend to move past it.

I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine not too long ago about how difficult its been to formulate an after-graduation plan for Bratboy. I had been told of a small college not too far from our town that has an outreach program for spectrum folks. I was really excited about the possibility of him being able to attend a four-year college with additional support on campus.

I was in no way prepared for the ensuing diatribe of how she didnt think it was fair that he could obtain a four year degree with what amounts to an IEP the same as another student who "doesn't have the privilege of the additional support" and that he would, in essence, when in the job market after college, be "taking away someone's chance at a job who didn't have the "pass" he did while in college."

I really didnt know how to respond to her - I see her point. I also know how important it is to ensure that everyone, regardless of ability, has the same access to education and what a difference it will make in his future. I am still torn with how I feel about it.

I am happy to say that we have been able to formulate a plan for him - he has part time employment over the summer with a company who works with "not quite ready for the workforce folks" as a landscaping helper. It pays minimum wage and they will provide transportation to and from job sites. We think that it will give him an introduction to working without some of the pressures if he took a job with a company who didnt understand that he will have challenges.

In October, he will attend a nine week life skills class on the campus of a rehabilitation center about 5 hours from us. After he completes that program, he will begin the culinary arts program they offer and it gives him the same certificate that attending the local community college would offer. Both programs are federally and state funded and while we don't qualify for the subsidy program, even the monthly amount to include room, board and materials is really, really affordable.

At this point, I think I am really ok with the "passes", however mythical or not. I mean, really, we are talking about showing additional compassion, understanding and patience for those who need it and, well, I just can't imagine not.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=christie0918;332624]Belle - I think both you and Andrew bring up really good points about "normal" and the unspoken expectations/standards/rules. Its always been these things that were Bratboy's biggest obstacles. I may have mentioned this before, but he had to learn to read body language, facial expressions and to listen for tone when interacting. He was often a very literal child and I know he has had the same difficulty in online forums.

I think that sarcasm in an online forum is difficult for anyone to "read" unless they know the person making the post and can "hear" how they might say the same thing if in real-time. For me, if I am uncertain as to the intent of the typed words, unless its something that directly impacts me, I tend to move past it.

I had a conversation with a very good friend of mine not too long ago about how difficult its been to formulate an after-graduation plan for Bratboy. I had been told of a small college not too far from our town that has an outreach program for spectrum folks. I was really excited about the possibility of him being able to attend a four-year college with additional support on campus.

I was in no way prepared for the ensuing diatribe of how she didnt think it was fair that he could obtain a four year degree with what amounts to an IEP the same as another student who "doesn't have the privilege of the additional support" and that he would, in essence, when in the job market after college, be "taking away someone's chance at a job who didn't have the "pass" he did while in college."

I really didnt know how to respond to her - I see her point. I also know how important it is to ensure that everyone, regardless of ability, has the same access to education and what a difference it will make in his future. I am still torn with how I feel about it.

I am happy to say that we have been able to formulate a plan for him - he has part time employment over the summer with a company who works with "not quite ready for the workforce folks" as a landscaping helper. It pays minimum wage and they will provide transportation to and from job sites. We think that it will give him an introduction to working without some of the pressures if he took a job with a company who didnt understand that he will have challenges.

In October, he will attend a nine week life skills class on the campus of a rehabilitation center about 5 hours from us. After he completes that program, he will begin the culinary arts program they offer and it gives him the same certificate that attending the local community college would offer. Both programs are federally and state funded and while we don't qualify for the subsidy program, even the monthly amount to include room, board and materials is really, really affordable.

At this point, I think I am really ok with the "passes", however mythical or not. I mean, really, we are talking about showing additional compassion, understanding and patience for those who need it and, well, I just can't imagine not.

christie, culinary arts, right on! a tremendous amout of work goes into planning a future for your son, especially at the distance from home. he will have so many transitions ahead of him, and that's no cake walk!

your post makes sense to me in that i wonder if people who are not on the spectrum realise how insulting it can be to hear certain things- i.e., accusations of being sarcastic, or being well-aware of something done to incite others - getting passes for the sake of using DX as a crutch, having more opportunities than NTs - when the opposite is more likely to be true. this can be so annoying! as a kid, several of those phrases were not unfamiliar to me from distant relatives, btw. online, matter-of-fact, and very infrequent personalisation is my posting style- but how it gets read/translated who knows; and really, i would love to be asked if someone was unsure of how i meant something i composed. isn't it inconceivable for there to be an expectation of any person [nt or NoT] to read minds and know just exactly what/when/how anyone else is going to be 'triggered' by their own stuff when you're trying to not engage negatively- because it isn't on the mind to do so! going on to the next step without additonal stress of it being about the other person - is that asking for a pass/ too much ?

i wish you all the best, christine. he seems like a remarkable young man with beautifully supportive parents!

belle

[Rain]

gonna spend some time reading posts here........looks like a good place, i could use a good place

[aishah]

for me, having access does not mean getting a "pass."

i resent being forced/expected to overcompensate and act as normal as possible. i don't think that's a healthy way to be in the world. it's caused me a lot of pain and suffering and trauma, and usually it's futile. but i do respect that it is my responsibility to communicate my access needs and that as the person with the disability, educating others about disability, accessibility, and inclusion usually falls to me.

i also understand that having a disability doesn't give me a pass to be a jerk. but often i have access needs that other people take as something offensive (for example, needing to sit on the floor because chairs are agonizing, or using a computer during a meeting so that i can stay on track when i'm dealing with ridiculous amounts of pain and fatigue - in the "normal" world these things are viewed as annoyances, disruptions, impolite). so i do my best to make people understand that just because what i'm doing doesn't look "normal" for whatever setting does not mean i am being rude.