The Mythical *Pass* for Differently-Abled People

[SuperFemme]

I really want to start a conversation about something near and dear to my heart.

That is the subject of personal responsibility when posting as a differently-abled person. As the Ambassador for such things I think it is an important conversation to have right now.

As some of you know I am differently-abled. I have a severe TBI (traumatic brain injury) as well as some other serious health issues.

What does that mean for *me*? It means that I don't have filters the way normal people do. It means that my frontal temporal lobe was SO damaged that my critical thinking and emotional response mechanisms don't work like yours. It is like using a coffee filter in place of an oil filter maybe. The way that my brain processes and regurgitates is from a very emotional place, and the filtering system that most people have telling them what is okay to say and what is not doesn't work like normal.

I have to live every day very differently than most people in a lot of ways. I have to be reminded to eat, to take medicine, to feed my children, to shower....the list is endless.

I'm getting to the point I promise.

This all means that I have to work a little harder if I want to be a part of society. I have to set alarms, use calendars and rely on the people that love me (truly love me) to keep me on track. Mostly, I have to rely on myself, because at the end of the day it is *me* who has to live with the consequences of not using compensation strategies to fill in for the things that I am lacking.

I have lived this way since July 26, 2003. That is almost exactly 7 years.

For the first three years (while I was in a brain injury rehab program) I really believed that it was the worlds job to understand me. I couldn't understand why I didn't get passes for my ridiculousness because of my head injury.

I now understand that it is my job to the work. That means I don't get a special *Pass* for my different-ability. It is not the worlds fault that I am like this and frankly it is an impossible request that the world compensate for me rather than me compensating for myself.

I don't WANT a pass. I feel angry when I do get one, because it is taking away the day to day work of being Adele that empowers me.

If I act like an asshole, I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".
If I am hurtful to others I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".
If I am racist or sexist or misogynistic I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".
If I am mean spirited and snarky I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".

I instead get to own up to my behaviors. For me, this can mean apologizing, listening (and hearing) when others come to me and say "that was kind of fucked up and heres why", it means writing and re-writing posts, and it means having others check my posts AFTER I've read and re-read what I've written before I hit the submit button.

I am not perfect and I own that there have been plenty of times that I have gotten lazy and complacent. For the most part, I have had to live with the consequences of that. Like Juney un-friending me in Facebook.

So I hope that we as a community can remember that although a person may be differently abled, we are all responsible for our own actions. Head patting and "poor poor baby" responses are diminishing and erasing. I don't know any differently abled person who wants to be pitied.

Pitied would look like me saying anything I want and nobody every caring because poor thing has a head injury.

Accommodated would look like me saying gross things and people calling me out just like anyone else.

Because if somebody got angry with me deservedly that would be a consequence of me not using my compensation strategies. And that needs to happen.

Just because I am differently-abled does not mean that I don't have to live by the same set of rules that the rest of the world does.

When I am babied, coddled, or given leeway that others are not it translates to me that I am indeed challenged and broken beyond repair.

THAT takes away my hope and incentive for living in the world as a human being just like everyone else.

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and hear honest feedback, because I've noticed that sometimes we are given "passes" by our fellow community members (mostly in the spirit of caring/compassion) and I want to talk about how that can or cannot invalidate a differently-abled person.

Thanks.

[SuperFemme]

i promise that this is a safe conversation.
all viewpoints are welcome. :readfineprint:

[Corkey]

I don't have a brain injury so I really can't speak to the filters or how one has to use coping mechanisms. I do know that I take everyone at face value and at their word. I do try harder to understand when a person with a TBI is expressing a view point that I may not get right away. Is that a pass, no I don't think so, I think it is me giving that person more space to get their view point across. Perhaps because I know so many who do have TBI I don't jump to conclusions about what they have said.
My .02

[SuperFemme]

I don't have a brain injury so I really can't speak to the filters or how one has to use coping mechanisms. I do know that I take everyone at face value and at their word. I do try harder to understand when a person with a TBI is expressing a view point that I may not get right away. Is that a pass, no I don't think so, I think it is me giving that person more space to get their view point across. Perhaps because I know so many who do have TBI I don't jump to conclusions about what they have said.
My .02

No, trying harder to understand a person is not giving them a pass.
That is human compassion and we all need it!

I love the ways I've seen you be patient.

I'm speaking more about writing stuff that is outright wrong, and people giving a different set of rules to a person who has a different-ability.

I used TBI because it is what I can speak to personally, from a *me* place.

There are lots of things that can make our filters not work, or the way that we relate to others different, not just TBI.

I really hope other people come in and post from other perspectives, because there are so many.

Thank you Corkey, for your response.

[DamonK]

Online you would not know my disabilities.

In real life, you would have a greater chance of noticing I'm deaf. And have lousy eye hand coordination due to being blind in one eye.

I work hard daily at "passing" as a hearing person. I do this simply because I absolutely HATE being treated differently just because I can't hear the way others can.

I hate the jokes that come my way the few times that I just can't "pass". I'd rather it be ignored, because I've spent a lifetime appearing like hearing people.

I don't want a free pass.

I want to be accepted for who I am; no more, no less.

[SuperFemme]

Online you would not know my disabilities.

In real life, you would have a greater chance of noticing I'm deaf. And have lousy eye hand coordination due to being blind in one eye.

I work hard daily at "passing" as a hearing person. I do this simply because I absolutely HATE being treated differently just because I can't hear the way others can.

I hate the jokes that come my way the few times that I just can't "pass". I'd rather it be ignored, because I've spent a lifetime appearing like hearing people.

I don't want a free pass.

I want to be accepted for who I am; no more, no less.

I love this post and it so resonates with me.

The only time I get a little weird is when people become violent/angry with me for using my handicap placard when I park.

The placard outs me, but the world doesn't seem to understand invisible disabilities like TBI. Which can be frustrating and I don't know a good answer for that other than to be patient with people who get upset.

I want to let you know that here, you are accepted. Just how you are. :bunchflowers:

[Gayla]

For me, it kind of goes back to what I said in the other thread. We all come here from different places. While I can't say it's a free pass thing, I think I'm more likely to give the benefit of the doubt when I'm aware of external factors. From that honesty place, I also jump less quickly when it's someone I "know".

I think every one of us could find some excuse when we get called out for saying "bad" things. From physical factors to emotional issues to just plain having a bad day, there are always reasons. I guess the question for me is if I say something asshatish and then follow up with an apology and a "having a bad day" excuse, is that any more or less of a pass than someone who offers an apology and a "TBI" excuse.

All that being said, I think we each have a responsibility to participate on an appropriate level. I venture to guess that most of us have a reasonable idea of what appropriate is, or we learn very quickly. For those that truly don't know, and aren't capable of learning for various reasons, I'm really not sure what the answer is for that. I don't want to say, don't participate but I also can't see just letting someone run amok across the site because they "don't know better".

[Queerasfck]

Your post was brave and honest and the thread is really great Adele. I appreciate your honesty. Thank you.

If someone is doing the best that they can then what more can they do? I think that I do personally make exceptions for people who are differently-abled from time to time because of what I've read about them (from disclosure in their own posts).

A few years ago on another website I used to belong to a member/online friend I had was upset because he had no resources where he lived for a service he was seeking. He kept going on about how there was no help for him. I PM'd to help. I figured how hard could it be? Since it was a major city there were bound to be the resources and meetings he was seeking. So I worked and gathered up all the info I found after spending only a few hours on it. Gave him the phone numbers and addresses of multiple locations I had checked out (there were 12 locations in his area alone, so that gave me hope he would get what he was seeking). I even got him the times his group would meet. After a few days I PM'd to see if he had checked into any of them references and he told me a bunch of different reasons why none of them panned out. "They were closed, didn't exsist, was the wrong number, ran out of funding, etc."
I have to say it was sad and frustrating. I believe he didn't even try and from my POV it seemed like he was capable of calling at least one or two of the places. But maybe he really wasn't. He seemed capable in similar areas of his life.......but we had never met in real life. He continued to occasionally post about how nothing was ever available in his area and those services didn't exsist. So, you know I just moved on and didn't bring it up.

For the record it bugs me when I see *anyone* (differently-abled or not) continually making excuses for weird references in posts or inappropriate comments and/or just about things that seem to keep happening to them over and over again in their daily lives.

[Soft*Silver]

I am so glad you created this thread! I too am differently abled and I am still in the stage where I am battling people's perceptions of my capabilities. I get weary of people who want to keep me from doing activities because they dont want me to be hurt. I know they mean well but I am sorry. I need to learn my limits and I cant tell what they are unless I visit them and see where I can go before I need to stop....but I know their behaviors come from a loving place. I know they all gasp when I post on FB that I am going to ride a horse. Everyone close to me knows how bad my back is. I just cant give up hope that I will get up on a horse again. But that is a journey that is not done yet...

But you are talking about something different. You are talking about someone with a disability using it to their advantage so they dont have to accept ownership of their behaviors....that somehow being "impaired" makes it acceptable for them to be mean or deceitful, or hateful, or ..(fill in the blank) I have witnessed this before, where the person with disability says "I didnt know what I was doing because I (fill in the blank) oh no no no....especially no no no when they do it over and over again. Especially when they do it when its beneficial to them and hurtful always to someone else. Yes, sometimes a person can make a mistake and yes, we can forgive them but when its a constant, when it is a pattern, then it IS a mythical pass they seek.

Well, I dont want it. And I get really angry over people who use it to hide behind. "I screwed up because I am disabled" doesnt fly with me. I have witnessed people saying and doing horrible things, including being deceitful, and then turning around and using their disability as a shield from consequences. I have walked away from people who do this because there is truth to the old adage, that you are who you hang with. I work hard at being as functional as I possibly can be. I am WAY far from being perfect and frankly I have characteristics that make me a difficult person to deal with, but none of them have ANYTHING to do with my disabilities. It just means I am an ass at times. Thank god for my AA program that makes me look at that on a daily basis and accept that reality and forces me to work to eradicate it ... or end up drunk again. And I dont want to do that EVER again. I am grateful I have a program that truly teaches me what an ass I am...so that I can work thru it to get the part of me that is spiritual and beautiful more room to come out.

Good thread, SF...great thread, in fact...I am interested in hearing from other people!

[SuperFemme]

For me, it kind of goes back to what I said in the other thread. We all come here from different places. While I can't say it's a free pass thing, I think I'm more likely to give the benefit of the doubt when I'm aware of external factors. From that honesty place, I also jump less quickly when it's someone I "know".

I think every one of us could find some excuse when we get called out for saying "bad" things. From physical factors to emotional issues to just plain having a bad day, there are always reasons. I guess the question for me is if I say something asshatish and then follow up with an apology and a "having a bad day" excuse, is that any more or less of a pass than someone who offers an apology and a "TBI" excuse.

All that being said, I think we each have a responsibility to participate on an appropriate level. I venture to guess that most of us have a reasonable idea of what appropriate is, or we learn very quickly. For those that truly don't know, and aren't capable of learning for various reasons, I'm really not sure what the answer is for that. I don't want to say, don't participate but I also can't see just letting someone run amok across the site because they "don't know better".

Thank you Gayla. Great post, and I totally get what you are saying.

I really really hope that my OP wasn't shaming in any way of those members who do go out of their ways for people. Because if it did? I failed at communicating. I know that people come from amazing places of love and compassion and empathy/sympathy when choosing to be aware of those of us who are differently-abled.

I believe in my heart that everyone is capable of learning. I think in the online context it can be more challenging to get a person like me to "hear" you when you come to me and tell me that I am being an asshat. I have to work super hard to be able to hear. Conversely, that is a choice I make. I choose to be open to criticism, new ideas and different ways of doing things. I choose to not be afraid to fail (and fail miserably sometimes) in a public arena.

There was a time when I chose not to do all of the above. Either way, it is an internal process and choice.

Amok amok amok amok! (sorry. i couldn't help it. i love that word.

[SuperFemme]

Your post was brave and honest and the thread is really great Adele. I appreciate your honesty. Thank you.

If someone is doing the best that they can then what more can they do? I think that I do personally make exceptions for people who are differently-abled from time to time because of what I've read about them (from disclosure in their own posts).

A few years ago on another website I used to belong to a member/online friend I had was upset because he had no resources where he lived for a service he was seeking. He kept going on about how there was no help for him. I PM'd to help. I figured how hard could it be? Since it was a major city there were bound to be the resources and meetings he was seeking. So I worked and gathered up all the info I found after spending only a few hours on it. Gave him the phone numbers and addresses of multiple locations I had checked out (there were 12 locations in his area alone, so that gave me hope he would get what he was seeking). I even got him the times his group would meet. After a few days I PM'd to see if he had checked into any of them references and he told me a bunch of different reasons why none of them panned out. "They were closed, didn't exsist, was the wrong number, ran out of funding, etc."
I have to say it was sad and frustrating. I believe he didn't even try and from my POV it seemed like he was capable of calling at least one or two of the places. But maybe he really wasn't. He seemed capable in similar areas of his life.......but we had never met in real life. He continued to occasionally post about how nothing was ever available in his area and those services didn't exsist. So, you know I just moved on and didn't bring it up.

For the record it bugs me when I see *anyone* (differently-abled or not) continually making excuses for weird references in posts or inappropriate comments and/or just about things that seem to keep happening to them over and over again in their daily lives.




Thank you for this post.

You experience with your friend on the other site struck a chord with me. Because I've been just like your friend. The first few years after acquiring a brain injury are the worst, because you basically have to say good bye to the person you used to be. Which means grieving, and that can take a long long time to process.

I know that when in that frame of mind, I didn't honestly want answers. I didn't want help. I wanted people to do things for me. Which looks a lot different that accepting real help. By that I mean the kind of help you offered. People doing things for me wasn't really help at all, no matter how well intentioned. I have gone from not walking, talking, paralyzed on one half of my body and unable to swallow on my own to being a full time mother and spouse again. I would NOT have made it to here had I not made the choice to get busy living.

I also think your response was absolutely perfect, because it is inevitable that you are going to get sucking into the abyss of helplessness and darkness that some of us get stuck in.

I guess I am just really invested in being the same as you. and you. and you. I know I am always going to be differently abled, but there are parts of me that CAN be the same. That can only happen if my consequences are the same, and my personal accountability is the same.

I'm not asking that everyone dogpile on the differently abled people. Not at all. I'm asking people to maybe think about being real with us, to try starting a dialogue when things get said or things happen that would result in you approaching any other person.

Of course be kind and empathetic and probably throw in a little patience, but don't let things slide always just because a person is differently abled.

Most of the people on this site that I know of are pretty open about their different-abledness and pretty open to hearing people.

[socialjustice_fsu]

by this thread, Adele. For me as a social worker I am constantly keeping a check on my own perceptions and responses to others. The one's that have posted here have my respect and admiration to bring this kind of thing to the table. We can NEVER stop learning about one another.

Really good thread. Thank you for stepping up to the plate and articulating something that is both very personal yet so very public.

You are beautiful.

[Queerasfck]

Thank you for this post.

You experience with your friend on the other site struck a chord with me. Because I've been just like your friend. The first few years after acquiring a brain injury are the worst, because you basically have to say good bye to the person you used to be. Which means grieving, and that can take a long long time to process.

I know that when in that frame of mind, I didn't honestly want answers. I didn't want help. I wanted people to do things for me. Which looks a lot different that accepting real help. By that I mean the kind of help you offered. People doing things for me wasn't really help at all, no matter how well intentioned. I have gone from not walking, talking, paralyzed on one half of my body and unable to swallow on my own to being a full time mother and spouse again. I would NOT have made it to here had I not made the choice to get busy living.

I also think your response was absolutely perfect, because it is inevitable that you are going to get sucking into the abyss of helplessness and darkness that some of us get stuck in.

I guess I am just really invested in being the same as you. and you. and you. I know I am always going to be differently abled, but there are parts of me that CAN be the same. That can only happen if my consequences are the same, and my personal accountability is the same.

I'm not asking that everyone dogpile on the differently abled people. Not at all. I'm asking people to maybe think about being real with us, to try starting a dialogue when things get said or things happen that would result in you approaching any other person.

Of course be kind and empathetic and probably throw in a little patience, but don't let things slide always just because a person is differently abled.

Most of the people on this site that I know of are pretty open about their different-abledness and pretty open to hearing people.

I really appreciate what you are saying. These posts are all really a good learning tool. Also, I'm very glad you're here and posting.

[sweetcali]

What a beautiful thread. I agree that all too often there is a free pass given for bad behavior as in using an excuse for the behavior. I know that for myself and the changes that have taken place it has been your example of how to deal with the changes, your example of staying away from "victim" that have helped me to learn how to handle these changes within me.

I want to say a big thank you and much love to both you and Cal for living by example in by doing this it helps me to accept my changes and accept responsibility for them.

I think those that choose to use their "pass" are also choosing to stay within the victim stage.

sweetcali

(I sure hope this came out right)

[SuperFemme]

What a beautiful thread. I agree that all too often there is a free pass given for bad behavior as in using an excuse for the behavior. I know that for myself and the changes that have taken place it has been your example of how to deal with the changes, your example of staying away from "victim" that have helped me to learn how to handle these changes within me.

I want to say a big thank you and much love to both you and Cal for living by example in by doing this it helps me to accept my changes and accept responsibility for them.

I think those that choose to use their "pass" are also choosing to stay within the victim stage.

sweetcali

(I sure hope this came out right)


I hope this doesn't mean that you are not going to fight fair in our upcoming wheelchair races.

We love you back, but I am so winning. :mobilewheelchair:

[Soft*Silver]

Cali, I loved it when you said "I think those that choose to use their "pass" are also choosing to stay within the victim stage". I so agree with you! I think thats what sets me off. I am so determined not to be called a victim of my disabilities. I am different now, but am not a victim by any means...

[SuperFemme]

I want to say something about the word "victim" because it gets thrown around a lot.

I know that for *me* I was a victim. Of a drunk driver. I had to go through that period of shock and awe that happens when you wake up from a coma and don't know who you are or where you or even your name.

I know that some of us were born with different abilities, some of us acquired them from traumatic things and some of us have illnesses which got us in the club.

It is normal (i think) to grieve for what you've lost, what you know will never be, and sometimes from frustration of not feeling "enough".

So some of us are stuck in that mode of grieving for longer than others. Some of us never get out of that space. That's just the way it is.

With that being said, I don't think it's fair for us (the collective us) to label people victims in such a negative context.

I think *I* am the one that gets to decide if victim fits me. I could be wrong, but it feels oogie to me to use the word in a negative context when talking about other people.

What else could we use? Idea's?

I tend to think of "stuck" when thinking about the times I've not been able to fight my way out of the darkness.

[Soft*Silver]

great points you bring here...


I want to say something about the word "victim" because it gets thrown around a lot.

I know that for *me* I was a victim. Of a drunk driver. I had to go through that period of shock and awe that happens when you wake up from a coma and don't know who you are or where you or even your name.

I know that some of us were born with different abilities, some of us acquired them from traumatic things and some of us have illnesses which got us in the club.

It is normal (i think) to grieve for what you've lost, what you know will never be, and sometimes from frustration of not feeling "enough".

So some of us are stuck in that mode of grieving for longer than others. Some of us never get out of that space. That's just the way it is.

With that being said, I don't think it's fair for us (the collective us) to label people victims in such a negative context.

I think *I* am the one that gets to decide if victim fits me. I could be wrong, but it feels oogie to me to use the word in a negative context when talking about other people.

What else could we use? Idea's?

I tend to think of "stuck" when thinking about the times I've not been able to fight my way out of the darkness.

[DamonK]

I want to say something about the word "victim" because it gets thrown around a lot.

I know that for *me* I was a victim. Of a drunk driver. I had to go through that period of shock and awe that happens when you wake up from a coma and don't know who you are or where you or even your name.

I know that some of us were born with different abilities, some of us acquired them from traumatic things and some of us have illnesses which got us in the club.

It is normal (i think) to grieve for what you've lost, what you know will never be, and sometimes from frustration of not feeling "enough".

So some of us are stuck in that mode of grieving for longer than others. Some of us never get out of that space. That's just the way it is.

With that being said, I don't think it's fair for us (the collective us) to label people victims in such a negative context.

I think *I* am the one that gets to decide if victim fits me. I could be wrong, but it feels oogie to me to use the word in a negative context when talking about other people.

What else could we use? Idea's?

I tend to think of "stuck" when thinking about the times I've not been able to fight my way out of the darkness.

First part, in reference to grieving:

It may sound odd, and I'll explain why in a moment, but I am 28 and at times I still grieve for what I don't have.

Hmm, funny that. I've been this way since birth. It's...awkward...to grieve for something that is the ONLY thing you've ever known. I don't know what it's like to see with two eyes, or to suddenly jump in a swimming pool on a whim. I don't know a world without checking my pockets before work, "Do I have hearing aid batteries?" In fact, last week, without thinking about it, I took 2 packs to work! I don't know a world where, in some instances, I politely nod, and read lips to finish a conversation, or a sentence, then say, "Could you please excuse me a moment?" then turn, and quickly change batteries, because my hearing aid is beeping at me and driving me batty, saying "Change me change me."

It's possessed. I swear it is.

Point is, I don't know another world, but these thoughts are what I have everyday, and situations I find myself in fairly often. Simple facts of my life.

Which leads me to point two:

I do NOT consider myself a victim.

I consider myself lucky.

You see, back then, with my situations... I shouldn't be alive today. My mom, around my birthday, calls me, crying, every year, still amazed and thankful that I pulled through -- 28 years later. And every year, there's one story she tells me. It's a story of grief, and resignation. But it's a reminder that miracles do exist. And I'll even share it.

My doctor's name was Dr. McGee. He was my doctor until I was about 7 I think. I don't know. I still remember sometimes he'd look at me with wonder on his face. Back then I didn't understand why. Now I do. Not long after my birth, Doc went to my mom's hospital room, crying. Doc was in street clothes, off duty... He told Mom how sorry he was and how he didn't think I'd make it through the night. I'd taken a bad downhill turn.

That is the only part of the story I remember. It connects the dots for me what I had to fight through to make it.

For me, at least, one thought crosses my head? How can I consider myself a victim when I know how lucky I am to be alive?

Then the annoyance over batteries seems quite insignificant when I remember....

[violaine]

superfemme wrote:

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and hear honest feedback, because I've noticed that sometimes we are given "passes" by our fellow community members (mostly in the spirit of caring/compassion) and I want to talk about how that can or cannot invalidate a differently-abled person.

Thanks.

i really don't know that in my case, i've noticed within this or any other online community, any "passes". my interaction is usually to the 'topic' and less posting back and forth to individuals, or groups of people. i do write from my own aspergian space mostly, because that's a way that feels right or natural to me, instead of using lots of 'we' or 'us' comments -so that may be part of it.



a note about adult services being difficult to come by, please. in some cases the only option is to start the group, if someone is able to do so, like i did for adults on the autism spectrum. otherwise, i would find numbers disconnected; closed groups/servies; or funding issues- as EZeeTiger listed.



:bunchflowers:

[SuperFemme]

First part, in reference to grieving:

It may sound odd, and I'll explain why in a moment, but I am 28 and at times I still grieve for what I don't have.

Hmm, funny that. I've been this way since birth. It's...awkward...to grieve for something that is the ONLY thing you've ever known. I don't know what it's like to see with two eyes, or to suddenly jump in a swimming pool on a whim. I don't know a world without checking my pockets before work, "Do I have hearing aid batteries?" In fact, last week, without thinking about it, I took 2 packs to work! I don't know a world where, in some instances, I politely nod, and read lips to finish a conversation, or a sentence, then say, "Could you please excuse me a moment?" then turn, and quickly change batteries, because my hearing aid is beeping at me and driving me batty, saying "Change me change me."

It's possessed. I swear it is.

Point is, I don't know another world, but these thoughts are what I have everyday, and situations I find myself in fairly often. Simple facts of my life.

Which leads me to point two:

I do NOT consider myself a victim.

I consider myself lucky.

You see, back then, with my situations... I shouldn't be alive today. My mom, around my birthday, calls me, crying, every year, still amazed and thankful that I pulled through -- 28 years later. And every year, there's one story she tells me. It's a story of grief, and resignation. But it's a reminder that miracles do exist. And I'll even share it.

My doctor's name was Dr. McGee. He was my doctor until I was about 7 I think. I don't know. I still remember sometimes he'd look at me with wonder on his face. Back then I didn't understand why. Now I do. Not long after my birth, Doc went to my mom's hospital room, crying. Doc was in street clothes, off duty... He told Mom how sorry he was and how he didn't think I'd make it through the night. I'd taken a bad downhill turn.

That is the only part of the story I remember. It connects the dots for me what I had to fight through to make it.

For me, at least, one thought crosses my head? How can I consider myself a victim when I know how lucky I am to be alive?

Then the annoyance over batteries seems quite insignificant when I remember....

I love this post! I have to tell you that I evolved from being angry that a drunk driver "stole my life" and feeling sorry for myself to "This accident was a gift".

I am still here! Against all odds. I am no longer working 60 - 80 hour work weeks. I am enjoying my children 24 hours a day and they are not in daycare/school for 10 - 12 hours a day. So much to thankful for, that it makes me mad to be called a victim.

I may have wallowed in self pity for a while, but no. I am not a victim.

At the end of the day, there are a lot of gifts. Kind of like your batteries needing changing. You are here to change them! How amazing is that given that you were given such a grim prognosis.

Oh, and about grieving something you've never had. Absolutely. That makes perfect sense to me.

Have you ever had anyone call you a victim? If so, how do you (or how would) you deal with that?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have a mother who has some issues, she takes a nice cocktail to keep her functioning and filtered.

When she says something stupid, fucked, up or uncalled for I call her ASS OUT, and ream her ass hard. I will NOT make any excuses she is my mother and she will *learn* to be polite and not be an ass hat. I do this because I know she can and giving her a pass is not doing her justice it only helps her out.


I have a brother who is deaf, my parents coddled the fuck out of him and did the whole aww but he is deaf thing.

I DID NOT, I kicked his ass, punched him, threw him on his back and will still do that shit and call him on his fucked upness. He does not get a special pass from me because we are from the same Momma and well my
Momma did not raise us to be anything other than strong independent human beings. He has gone without talking to me for 2 years because I
tell him *I do not want to hear your lame ass excuses* I hold him to the same standards as any fucking body else.


I have a son who is an Aspie.

I am hard on him, I check his 10 year old ass hard when he begins to be an ass hat. He pushes boundaries and I push back HARD, I am not gentler to him because I gave him life than any other person out there, matter of fact I am harder on my cubs because they are representin' me. When he does his lil I wanna be violent and then go catatonic shit I don't allow it, in this house we talk it out, if he chooses otherwise he knows life is not going to be *The Fairly Odd Parents* or *Transformers*.


I have a couple sisterfriends one who has TBI the other cancer.

There is NO male version of her, she is unique as they come, and with that comes challenges. Do I make excuses for her ass? Hell no, I will come down hard on her ass, make her cry and continue to do so, because I know she can and treating her otherwise enables her to live in a *disabled* space.

She isn't, she has a challenging situation, she knows better, I don't give a rats ass that her brains are scrambled, (yes I talk to her this way) she is not going to be an ass hat, bitch, boundary crossing. I treat her as my equal because she is, we just have different thinking mechanisms. I do it because I love her and care.

The other woman is just as strong, though her body and mind are not the same as a year ago, I won't give her the pass for being a jerk, if need be I will say to her what I have to say, it does not take much when you check someone, if they want to be seen as who they are they listen.

I won't give anyone a pass. We are all adults, equals. Using the excuse that you have an illness to be a jerk, sexist, ass hat and other various things is not going to fly nor should it.

[SuperFemme]

superfemme wrote:

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and hear honest feedback, because I've noticed that sometimes we are given "passes" by our fellow community members (mostly in the spirit of caring/compassion) and I want to talk about how that can or cannot invalidate a differently-abled person.

Thanks.

i really don't know that in my case, i've noticed within this or any other online community, any "passes". my interaction is usually to the 'topic' and less posting back and forth to individuals, or groups of people. i do write from my own aspergian space mostly, because that's a way that feels right or natural to me, instead of using lots of 'we' or 'us' comments -so that may be part of it.



a note about adult services being difficult to come by, please. in some cases the only option is to start the group, if someone is able to do so, like i did for adults on the autism spectrum. otherwise, i would find numbers disconnected; closed groups/servies; or funding issues- as EZeeTiger listed.



:bunchflowers:


Thanks Violane. I'm glad that you haven't had to deal with the whole "pass" thing.

I understand what you are saying about adult services being difficult to find, but they are out there. I have yet to seek a specific kind of help without being able to find at least one resource. Even here where I live now, which is almost rural.

[christie]

I love this post and it so resonates with me.

The only time I get a little weird is when people become violent/angry with me for using my handicap placard when I park.

The placard outs me, but the world doesn't seem to understand invisible disabilities like TBI. Which can be frustrating and I don't know a good answer for that other than to be patient with people who get upset.

I want to let you know that here, you are accepted. Just how you are. :bunchflowers:

I'm posting without reading the whole thread but I did want to say that as the parent of child with invisible disabilities, this point really hit home with me.

I have lived through the judgements of what appear to be behavioral/lack of discipline issues. From my parent, siblings, other family members and complete strangers. I often thought it would be a much easier road if Bratboy's disability was visible - people seem to have much more compassion and tolerance when it is visible.

For me, in interacting with others (who may or may not have disclosed a disability or neuro-diversity), I always try (and hopefully succeed more than I fail) to not hear their words in *my* tone or in *my* voice. I have spent the last almost 17 years finding ways to explain things to Bratboy or to teach him with different methods or to grasp that very teeny tiny straw of patience/tolerance when I think the reserves are spent.

I do admit when I see post from folks who have disclosed such personal information, I, more often than not, try to apply to their words the same lens I would if I were reading my son's words. I then temper my response (if I make one at all) in a manner that I would want folks to use with Bratboy.

I always try to do this from a place of compassion rather than one of dismissal. I have found that I listen/read/process a differently-able'ds words and probably give them a lot more thought than I do someone who hasn't said they are differentlyabled.

If I see an asswipe post from a person who isn't differently abled, I might think, quickly, "What an asswipe."

The same words from a DA person and I usually pause and wonder, "Where did that come from?" and then go on to backtrack posts to see if I can find the catalyst or disconnect.

Maybe I am wrong in this and the DA person is just being an asswipe. Maybe I should have the same reaction regardless as to ability. *shrugs* Good points to ponder, at least for me.

I really hope that DA's are being heard. Heaven knows if I had dismissed my son's experience in the world, mine would certainly be very rigid, less colorful and with so much less laughter and joy.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can be a dick, this I know. I broke up with someone for LYING to me about their disorder.

Not because they had it, because they lied to me and did not disclose this info to me.

I guess you could say it's harsh and I've little empathy.

I truly do believe though, having a difference be it invisible or not, DOES NOT give you a free pass to manipulate or deceive.

That's how I roll though

[Plato]

My experience has been to not say anything about having been on a respirator for 2 months and not having enough oxygen to my brain, which changed me physically, emotionally, and mentally.
Some changes have been for the good. I just celebrated 11 years clean and sober, have a loving spouse and terrific custom-made family, and am on the edge of completing a 4 year college program for a B.S. degree.
Changes that are not so good is mainly that my bio-family doesn't recognize that inside challenges are also "disabilities". {By that I mean that my information processing is very different from the "norm".} They constantly expect and remind me of what I "should" be doing, without taking into account of what I am ABLE to do. It isn't for the lack of ambition, it's because I'm aware of what I'm capable of doing.

My CM-family learn and help each other to overcome our challenges, and help each other with things that are difficult or impossible. For example, the 12 yo supervises me with knifes, tells me to be careful when we are walking, and everyone knows we can not keep a supply of glassware because I tend to forget that I can't hang on to them, which results in broken glass.

Head patting is for sissies. Expect more and get more.

When I hear people say, "Well, He/She was drunk ... {fill in the blank}", it makes me cringe, cause that's the same kind of "pass" being referred to in this thread. To say, it's ok for someone to treat someone else in a crappy way because "He/She is ... {fill in the blank}", not only excuses bad/undesirable behavior, but sets a horrible example for the young ones. Children need to see adults treating each other compassionately and fairly.

[SuperFemme]

Snow, thanks for your amazing post, and I'll be back to address that in a moment.

I hope that I am conveying what I want to in this thread, and from the responses so far? I think I am...

Do I think the people in my world/life should know what TBI looks like? Yes. I do because we care about and love each other. So understanding each other is super important.

I do think it's up to me (in large part) to educate those in my immediate world. In a very honest way. That way when I tell people that I love 17 times in a half hour conversation that a dog chased me down the street today they don't light themselves on fire. Instead, they steer me somewhere else.

I made Snowy and Plato NUTS when balloon boy happened. I couldn't stop talking about it, being angry about it and looking for new information about it. I don't know how to stop myself when I perseverate. Which is awful.

Definition?: perseverate - psychology: repeat a response after the cessation of the original stimulus; "The subjects in this study perseverated"

Now, when I start to perseverate they grab me and say "Balloon Boy". Which is my cue that I'm doing my thing again. It's up to me to stop it though, otherwise I find myself alone while everyone else goes out and does something fun that does not involve "Balloon Boy".

I suffered seizures for a long time, but haven't had one in about a year now. Certain foods and activities brought seizures on. I didn't want anyone policing me and walking around next to me with a pillow just in case I went down. Over time I learned how to really work at NOT doing things that caused seizures.

So why am I sharing all this personal stuff? Because believe me, it puts me in a very vulnerable place. I know how mean people can be, and how sometimes things are funny. That aren't.

I just really want people who are NOT differently-abled to know that their love and empathy is appreciated. Knowing that people care is the best feeling in the world. Caveat? Letting me do things over and over again and feeling sorry for me harms me. It does not help me.

I understand the intentions behind feeling protective of someone with a different-ability, and I think it's great. What I find problematic is not holding us accountable for ourselves. It is disempowering to suggest a differently abled person cannot learn to self moderate.

I guess I don't want to be read differently. If that means giving someone who makes an asswipe statement the same consideration that you'd give a person with a different ability then so be it. That just means we're spreading the same amount of compassion around to everyone. Which is never a bad thing, right?

But I don't want special consideration. Because I have to live in the same world as the rest of you. With the same rules and laws. If I make a mistake, a police officer isn't going to give me special consideration. I'm going to get in the same kind of trouble as everyone else.

So to give the false security that rules do NOT apply to me is truly in the end, something that disables me further.

[ravfem]

i was born with my disabilities. As a child (ok, who am i kidding...up to present time), my family treated me as a disabled, unable to do for myself child, and took every opportunity to point it out to everyone i came into contact with. i absolutely hated going shoes shopping, because every. single. dang. time. my mama and/or granny would point out (to the sales person) the reason my feet were different sizes and why i couldn't (or really, wasn't allowed to) put the shoes on myself and tie them. i didn't learn to tie my shoes until i was maybe 10 or 11. my mama would dress me for school every morning until i was a pre-teen. i never learned how to ride a bike, run, skate, play on a jungle gym, etc because i was told i would get hurt. (a running thought in my head that still applies to this day)

i ate it up. i would sometimes over-play the physical manifestations of my disability, like walking with a limp or holding my arm closer to my body, because i knew even as a child that this would get me attention and extra gum or candy from little old ladies.

As i got older and started wanting independence, inside i was feeling frustrated that i wasn't allowed to do things, or at least given the opportunity to try, on my own. i remember when i first demanded to be allowed to go over to a friend's house by myself, instead of having my brother walk me over. She only lived 4 houses up from us, but my mama stood on our front porch watching me until i got to the door and knocked.

She was truly terrified i would fall & kill myself. Her over-protectiveness stifled me, but i've never held it against her because she didn't know any better. When i was first diagnosed with CP (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/cerebral-palsy/DS00302), at 6 months old, the doc told her that i would never walk, talk or know who she was and that the best thing to do would be to put me in an institution and visit every week (this was in 1967, and was the accepted prognosis and placement for babies born with CP and gawd only knows what other physical disabilities). She didn't do that, thank goodness.

When i got my first job, in fast food, almost daily customers would ask what was wrong with me. That took getting used to, lemme tell ya. When it first happened, i didn't know what the lady was even talking about, and just looked at her :| she finally said, "your arm, honey...what's wrong with it?" i would answer the question then get the same response every.single.time. A look on their face full of pity for me, and "bless your heart, you are so brave!". i came to loathe those words. Why was i so brave?? Because i was working?? Because i was trying to be "normal"??

i wore a brace on my left leg from infancy to the age of 12. i stopped the day i fell in a mud puddle at school and couldn't stand back up because the soles of the shoes were slick (back then there was one choice in style of shoes that could have a brace made into it...the old granny-looking dress shoe with no tread on the bottom. The metal brace was built into the shoe itself). That is still my most embarrassing moment ever....nothing like being a teen and having your peers standing around you laughing because you looked like their own personal Laurel & Hardy routine.... continually slipping & falling back in the mud over & over. i finally crawled out of the puddle onto the grass and was able to stand.

Damon, i completely get the grieving what you never had thing. i've never had full use of my left side, and i grieved that for years, usually in the form of self-pity. i really would love to know what it's like to do things with 2 hands at the same time. But, i also personally believe that people who developed their disability/ies vs being born with them have it worse than me. i think it would be emotionally harder to have to deal with knowing what it used to be like to function and having to relearn how to do things.

i lived on campus and attended a college for people with physical disabilities in Virginia, and became friends with several people with TBI's. It took me some time to learn why most of them were so very outspoken and occasionally down right rude and mean. Here, when i am aware that a poster has a TBI, i do tend to "read" what they're saying with a different lens, and i do tend to try & process what's being said through that lens. i don't "excuse" them when it's a snarky or whatever post, but i am aware that the TBI could have some impact on it.

Come to think of it...maybe if i granted everyone that same lens in reading their posts, i might not automatically get offended or angry about stuff?

SF, i loved this: >>I guess I am just really invested in being the same as you. and you. and you. I know I am always going to be differently abled, but there are parts of me that CAN be the same. That can only happen if my consequences are the same, and my personal accountability is the same.<< i agree and feel the same. i really appreciate it when i am treated the same as others until i prove i am not, or ask for help.

Also....i wonder how much depression becomes a secondary diagnosis to the original disability, and what part it plays in the process of growing, accepting, learning new ways to function & cope? Like when Ezee was talking about his friend not acting on any of the help Ezee offered. i immediately thought "maybe the person is/was depressed?"

[Apocalipstic]

SF, I am so glad that you started this thread, because I do have some questions floating around about different ways of being.

I am very glad Violaine and Christie posted, to see how some of my friends process taking to DA people on the Neurological Spectrum. I am not sure how head injuries play in, but probably similarly?

I must admit I have seen posts, that were so clear and easy to understand for me, that would have seemed asshatish to someone neurotypical, moderated firmly....and then, when I questioned their treatment, have been told "so and so is not stupid. NO, none of us are stupid, but some of us do process things much more literally than others and I think that while I get the not giving anyone special passes, I also question expecting everyone to be able to communicate on the same level.

Because of my own difficulties, I advocate for patience and love and not jumping to the worst possible conclusion automatically for other people. I hope I do not seem patronizing?

I do admit to working really hard all my life to fit in and be able to communicate and behave in a socially acceptable manner. So yes, everyone can work on themselves and make improvements. Absolutely! :)

Now, I am not saying that other people's reactions to persons who are DA is better or worse than mine, but I (from my ME place) am not a fan of tough love. I understand tough love is an option and that friends whom I love and admire are way more upfront than I am. But for me, having some neurological opportunities of my own, I don't expect a pass but I certainly appreciate those who are kind to me and who take the time to really hear me.

I am not not not saying that we could coddle those people whose lives are constantly a disaster, just I think sometimes kindness and compassion does not have to be belittling or othering.

[SuperFemme]

I also want to give a shout out to June: Who has a special way of letting me know that I am just like everyone else here and must act accordingly. She either mocks me or tells me to get a job. Which I love. For some strange reason it makes me feel secure to know that I am as susceptible to the stink eye as the next person.

edit: as a fine example of brain injury i'd like to confess that I first posted this in the wrong thread. the misogyny/sexism thread. which i am sure made people think: wtf?

THEN I freaked out when it wasn't here, and was sure June deleted it because she found me a job. :|

[christie]

I understand the intentions behind feeling protective of someone with a different-ability, and I think it's great. What I find problematic is not holding us accountable for ourselves. It is disempowering to suggest a differently abled person cannot learn to self moderate.

I guess I don't want to be read differently. If that means giving someone who makes an asswipe statement the same consideration that you'd give a person with a different ability then so be it. That just means we're spreading the same amount of compassion around to everyone. Which is never a bad thing, right?

But I don't want special consideration. Because I have to live in the same world as the rest of you. With the same rules and laws. If I make a mistake, a police officer isn't going to give me special consideration. I'm going to get in the same kind of trouble as everyone else.

So to give the false security that rules do NOT apply to me is truly in the end, something that disables me further.



SF -

I snipped your post for brevity.

I wanted to clarify that my viewing my son's experience through a different lens (or viewing a DA's post thru a different lens) doesn't mean that I don't hold him (or them) to the same standard. If anything, in my son's case, he is held to a higher standard with me. Its my job to ensure he has the skill set necessary for the world with the same rules/laws/expectations as those without his challenges.

I use the *lens* as part of my process in trying to figure out how he thinks. How he came to whatever place he is in - because for me, if I can figure out his perspective (which is usually so very different than mine) then I have a starting point to address the specific issue.

I don't think this is coddling him or giving him the false sense of security you mention. This is, through lots of trial and error, what works best for him. I don't expect others to go through the same interaction process with him, but more that he has the skills to self monitor/reflect rather than standing in the midst of a heated interaction with someone and not have a clue as to how he got there. He doesn't get to be an asswipe any more than anyone else does - probably less because I never want him to use his challenges as a crutch/excuse or pass.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself

[SuperFemme]

Ravfem? I loved your post. I feel like I just really got a peek at who you are, and I am impressed!

Apocalipstic? I want to reiterate again that I am NOT advocating for tough love, or for poor treatment of people who are differently-abled.

I think we all have different cognitive levels and that should be the first consideration when holding people accountable. I think using compassion, love and patience is always the right way to go, and I am not asking this community to dogpile on differently-abled people who break the rules.

What I *am* asking for is for people to consider what giving special treatment to somebody means. For everyone involved.

[ravfem]

I also want to give a shout out to June: Who has a special way of letting me know that I am just like everyone else here and must act accordingly. She either mocks me or tells me to get a job. Which I love. For some strange reason it makes me feel secure to know that I am as susceptible to the stink eye as the next person.

edit: as a fine example of brain injury i'd like to confess that I first posted this in the wrong thread. the misogyny/sexism thread. which i am sure made people think: wtf?

THEN I freaked out when it wasn't here, and was sure June deleted it because she found me a job. :|

ok first, this made me giggle.

Seriously though, i agree completely that when i am treated like everyone else, i really, really appreciate that and i admit that i immediately respect the person more because of it. It's like they are letting me know that no, i'm not special (well...not in that way anyway :cheesy: ), and that they respect me enough to treat me fairly, on the same level as "normal" people.

i've had people be afraid to touch my left arm/hand. Depending on my mood, that either hurts or pisses me off.

OH!! and another thing!! i soooooo much prefer it when people who have questions ask me, not the people who know me! Ask away!! i would love to educate you a little!!

[SuperFemme]

SF -

I snipped your post for brevity.

I wanted to clarify that my viewing my son's experience through a different lens (or viewing a DA's post thru a different lens) doesn't mean that I don't hold him (or them) to the same standard. If anything, in my son's case, he is held to a higher standard with me. Its my job to ensure he has the skill set necessary for the world with the same rules/laws/expectations as those without his challenges.

I use the *lens* as part of my process in trying to figure out how he thinks. How he came to whatever place he is in - because for me, if I can figure out his perspective (which is usually so very different than mine) then I have a starting point to address the specific issue.

I don't think this is coddling him or giving him the false sense of security you mention. This is, through lots of trial and error, what works best for him. I don't expect others to go through the same interaction process with him, but more that he has the skills to self monitor/reflect rather than standing in the midst of a heated interaction with someone and not have a clue as to how he got there. He doesn't get to be an asswipe any more than anyone else does - probably less because I never want him to use his challenges as a crutch/excuse or pass.

I think I mixed up a post with responding to what you wrote about and speaking to my own (adeles) feelings/experiences.

I didn't at all mean to imply that you coddle you son. If I did I want to apologize to you, because that would be an awful thing to say. I smiled when you said "Bratboy" and knew from what you wrote that you are all kinds of great as a mother.

I totally am for giving consideration to *where* a person is coming from, but not so much for allowing challenges as a crutch/excuse (which you worded so well, thanks).

I think I wish we could give everyone consideration because it is not just different abledness that causes a post to read bad. It could be a bad day, a break up, a death in the family or a million other things that leads to an asswipe post.

I hope I explained this better?

[christie]

I think I mixed up a post with responding to what you wrote about and speaking to my own (adeles) feelings/experiences.

I didn't at all mean to imply that you coddle you son. If I did I want to apologize to you, because that would be an awful thing to say. I smiled when you said "Bratboy" and knew from what you wrote that you are all kinds of great as a mother.

I totally am for giving consideration to *where* a person is coming from, but not so much for allowing challenges as a crutch/excuse (which you worded so well, thanks).

I think I wish we could give everyone consideration because it is not just different abledness that causes a post to read bad. It could be a bad day, a break up, a death in the family or a million other things that leads to an asswipe post.

I hope I explained this better?

Please don't think I thought you were saying I coddled my son. What I know is that just as unique as the DA's are - so are the nonDA's! What works for us isn't necessarily going to work with another Aspie/ODD/ADHD/(pick an acronym!) Just as you and those close to you have done, I think we all find what works in interactions - DA or not.

I like to think that I am a great mother - or at least the greatest mother I am capable of being! Thanks, tho - your words mean a lot.

I think Snow has a great point in those who continue to blow past the boundaries, time and time again, despite folks having taken the time and energy and patience to try and help the DA understand the disconnect.

I don't know what the answer is - but I find that with Bratboy, ignoring the unwanted behavior usually gets results. The moment I explode with, "STOP TAPPING ME ON THE FUCKING ARM", he takes that 179IQd DA brain and records it for future reference that that is a weakness and must be exploited at every possible turn.

I also find this works well with the overly needy dog. Cesar Millan has something going with the communicating with energy as opposed to words. Maybe we have to find the language the other person understands. Maybe, there is no common language and we need to resort to energy.

[Apocalipstic]

Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself

I think it depends on whether or not you want to ever interact again with the person.

Some people I just can't communicate with and stress me out even when I have tried to make clear my boundaries. When this happens, I have to just cut bait as it were, and have nothing to do with them again ( I have that option). They may be great people, but I can't go there.

I know you can't do that with your son, with him I know you have to just keep on going no matter how much your head wants to explode. I can't even imagine what it must be like.

So I think where we are different is I walk away and you confront. I have no idea which is better. I remove the person from my life at least for a while, 100% because I don't have the nerves for it. You, being a Mom don't have that option really. I wish sometimes I were more confrontational, but with my issues, it seems healthier to walk away.

[SuperFemme]

I am so glad you created this thread! I too am differently abled and I am still in the stage where I am battling people's perceptions of my capabilities. I get weary of people who want to keep me from doing activities because they dont want me to be hurt. I know they mean well but I am sorry. I need to learn my limits and I cant tell what they are unless I visit them and see where I can go before I need to stop....but I know their behaviors come from a loving place. I know they all gasp when I post on FB that I am going to ride a horse. Everyone close to me knows how bad my back is. I just cant give up hope that I will get up on a horse again. But that is a journey that is not done yet...

But you are talking about something different. You are talking about someone with a disability using it to their advantage so they dont have to accept ownership of their behaviors....that somehow being "impaired" makes it acceptable for them to be mean or deceitful, or hateful, or ..(fill in the blank) I have witnessed this before, where the person with disability says "I didnt know what I was doing because I (fill in the blank) oh no no no....especially no no no when they do it over and over again. Especially when they do it when its beneficial to them and hurtful always to someone else. Yes, sometimes a person can make a mistake and yes, we can forgive them but when its a constant, when it is a pattern, then it IS a mythical pass they seek.

Well, I dont want it. And I get really angry over people who use it to hide behind. "I screwed up because I am disabled" doesnt fly with me. I have witnessed people saying and doing horrible things, including being deceitful, and then turning around and using their disability as a shield from consequences. I have walked away from people who do this because there is truth to the old adage, that you are who you hang with. I work hard at being as functional as I possibly can be. I am WAY far from being perfect and frankly I have characteristics that make me a difficult person to deal with, but none of them have ANYTHING to do with my disabilities. It just means I am an ass at times. Thank god for my AA program that makes me look at that on a daily basis and accept that reality and forces me to work to eradicate it ... or end up drunk again. And I dont want to do that EVER again. I am grateful I have a program that truly teaches me what an ass I am...so that I can work thru it to get the part of me that is spiritual and beautiful more room to come out.

Good thread, SF...great thread, in fact...I am interested in hearing from other people!

I have to wonder to if someone who does it over and over isn't necessarily doing it on purpose. I mean, if something is not broke don't fix it, right?

So if using a different ability as a crutch is working for somebody (because people around them are co-signing that behavior) then there is no incentive to change.

I want to be real careful of how I am discussing this subject, because I can never really know where anyone is coming from AND sometimes a different ability can make it hard for somebody to realize what is going on.

I don't think (i hope not anyway) that anyone is intentionally thinking to themselves: I am going to be mean and shitty because I CAN.

I just think that there is always room for the bar to be raised and a person to be told in a compassionate way that the rules apply to them.

I believe that people will rise to the level that you are willing to meet them at. If that makes sense.

Like in AA, people have to get there on their own with only the desire to stop drinking, right? But nobody else can do their work, it is truly only up to the individual that wants to stop.

I hope I am making some kind of sense.

[DamonK]

I love this post! I have to tell you that I evolved from being angry that a drunk driver "stole my life" and feeling sorry for myself to "This accident was a gift".

I am still here! Against all odds. I am no longer working 60 - 80 hour work weeks. I am enjoying my children 24 hours a day and they are not in daycare/school for 10 - 12 hours a day. So much to thankful for, that it makes me mad to be called a victim.

I may have wallowed in self pity for a while, but no. I am not a victim.

At the end of the day, there are a lot of gifts. Kind of like your batteries needing changing. You are here to change them! How amazing is that given that you were given such a grim prognosis.

Oh, and about grieving something you've never had. Absolutely. That makes perfect sense to me.

Have you ever had anyone call you a victim? If so, how do you (or how would) you deal with that?

*grins teasingly* I'm even here to pay the arm and a leg for them.

This is a normal conversation with my mom, who lives in TX and is a night owl.

Mom: Go to walmart with me.
Me: Alright, lets go.

We talk awhile.

Me: Hey mom, go see if there are batteries on sale.
Mom: What kind do you use now?
Me: I dunno. Orange tab.
Mom: I thought it was brown.
Me: That was from the aid that your dog ate.
Mom: "laughing* Okay, I got you a couple packs.

A 8 pack of batts can cost me 8 bucks. No, it's not much, but consider I have to change a batt every week or so. It adds up!

The worst for me is if the damned thing breaks. I have to have it repaired every few months. Luckily, my repairs are cheap, about 5 bucks. Usually a plastic tubing breaks.

Now to answer your question...

I sometimes get called a victim.
I often get funny looks because of my speech.
I have that unmistakeable "deaf" voice.

When I get called a victim, I just say "no I'm not".

Then I hear "Oh poor you!"

About that time I'm telling the "offender" to shut up.

I'm not "poor." I'm a guy trying to make it in a hearing world. And yanno, sometimes, yeah, it does piss me off.

When I work with residents (keep in mind I'm a CNA) of different nationalities that speak a different language primarily, I try to learn a few phrases in their preferred language.

The same thing with friends. I try to show that consideration.

But, it pisses me off sometimes when some people won't consider learning a few things in MY preferred language.

I use speech out of necessity. I've no problem with speaking. But, please understand, I grew up signing in school and having interpreters. There are times I'd like to have the comfort of MY preferred language.

My parents never learned sign language. My mom knows the sign for crackers (sighs... always had to have saltine crackers in my house, even now), the sign for "I love you", beautiful, and some of the alphabet.

My dad knows "I love you."

If you will indulge me, SF, I will use you for an example.

You want to talk on the phone. I say "no." You get offended. I say "I can't read your lips on the phone." You say "I'll talk louder."

*sighs*

That's not the answer. Talking louder doesn't help me. If my back is turned and I can't read lips, and I'm busy and can't turn around, alright, I'll be a little more understanding if you do that.

Slow down a little. Let me read your lips. And no, I'm not fantasizing about making out with you just because I'm staring at your mouth.

These are all situations I deal with very regularly and how I get treated like a "victim".

I don't like it.

Sorry for the rant. :D

[SuperFemme]

DamonK,

Thank you for your examples of how you get treated as a victim. I can empathize with you, for sure. Not for exactly the same things of course, but for the same types of things.

Two of my four kids decided to pursue ASL throughout high school, yet couldn't get a "language" credit for the classes. It was considered an elective.

Which made me go round and round with the schools.

I learn from the kids, because well, I want to know. I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to want people to learn a few things in sign. If we can learn "su casa es mi casa" "parlez vous francais" (don't judge my spelling) then we can learn some sign.

Do you use a tty service for phone?

Do people REALLY think you want to make out with them because you are reading lips? Seriously? I don't think I'd react well to that.

Is there a reason your parents didn't learn much ASL?

[DamonK]

DamonK,

Thank you for your examples of how you get treated as a victim. I can empathize with you, for sure. Not for exactly the same things of course, but for the same types of things.

Two of my four kids decided to pursue ASL throughout high school, yet couldn't get a "language" credit for the classes. It was considered an elective.

Which made me go round and round with the schools.

I learn from the kids, because well, I want to know. I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to want people to learn a few things in sign. If we can learn "su casa es mi casa" "parlez vous francais" (don't judge my spelling) then we can learn some sign.

Do you use a tty service for phone?

Do people REALLY think you want to make out with them because you are reading lips? Seriously? I don't think I'd react well to that.

Is there a reason your parents didn't learn much ASL?

No tty.

My new hearing aid (3 yrs old by now) is digital rather than analog. I have mastered the art of holding phone just right to my microphone.

I don't think I'd know how to use a tty.

Yeah, quite often people think I wanna make out with them. For me, being deaf, it takes me a second longer to process whatever's being said. So I may be staring at lips a bit longer.... Not intentional. Just processing.

I never knew why my parents didn't learn ASL.

The only things I have that make it obvious is my hearing aid...batteries...dogs that bark if someone knocks or doorbell rings and closed captioning on my tv.

I do good with my cell phone.

I can't hear on house phone.

My parents are insistent I'm normal. They raised me to believe I could do anything I wanted. I'm not saying they did wrong. Not by any means. However, it was a slap in the face to discover I COULDN'T do anything I wanted. I had limitations. I had to adapt to them.

Example: I wanted to be a criminal profiler for FBI. Can't get in FBI.
Example: I wanted to be in the armed forces. Can't do that either.
Example: I wanted to be a surgical technologist. I can't do that either! (I can't read lips through surgical masks!)
Example: I wanted to be a teacher. Um, if I need an interpreter to be a student, how am I gonna be a teacher?
Example: I was a music major. Yes, I know how to play an instrument. I played quite well. I can't hear the difference between flat and sharp without other instruments or a metrodome.

Limitations. They suck.

[SuperFemme]

No tty.

My new hearing aid (3 yrs old by now) is digital rather than analog. I have mastered the art of holding phone just right to my microphone.

I don't think I'd know how to use a tty.

Yeah, quite often people think I wanna make out with them. For me, being deaf, it takes me a second longer to process whatever's being said. So I may be staring at lips a bit longer.... Not intentional. Just processing.

I never knew why my parents didn't learn ASL.

The only things I have that make it obvious is my hearing aid...batteries...dogs that bark if someone knocks or doorbell rings and closed captioning on my tv.

I do good with my cell phone.

I can't hear on house phone.

My parents are insistent I'm normal. They raised me to believe I could do anything I wanted. I'm not saying they did wrong. Not by any means. However, it was a slap in the face to discover I COULDN'T do anything I wanted. I had limitations. I had to adapt to them.

Example: I wanted to be a criminal profiler for FBI. Can't get in FBI.
Example: I wanted to be in the armed forces. Can't do that either.
Example: I wanted to be a surgical technologist. I can't do that either! (I can't read lips through surgical masks!)
Example: I wanted to be a teacher. Um, if I need an interpreter to be a student, how am I gonna be a teacher?
Example: I was a music major. Yes, I know how to play an instrument. I played quite well. I can't hear the difference between flat and sharp without other instruments or a metrodome.

Limitations. They suck.

I hear you about limitations. I am ever hopeful that we are going to keep pushing new legislation that opens more doors for people with different abilities.

Except for the surgical tech/mask thing I don't think it's right that you cannot do anything else on that list. Even the surgical tech job could be possible with some kind of compensation maybe? I don't know.

What instrument do you play?

Oh, an the tty thing. They give you a phone that looks like this:

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=169810079957&id=ca1abd61e2f0bfd3ec5f88418ff8c9cf&url=http%3a%2f%2fhearingsolutions.net%2fNEW%2fnewp ics%2fttymini.jpg

and people call you through a tty operator, who types what they are saying onto a screen for you. you either type or speak your responses.

not too awful, and i'm pretty sure you can pick up a phone just about anywhere here in the states and get a tty operator.

[Plato]

SF -
.... If anything, in my son's case, he is held to a higher standard with me. Its my job to ensure he has the skill set necessary for the world with the same rules/laws/expectations as those without his challenges.

I use the *lens* as part of my process in trying to figure out how he thinks. How he came to whatever place he is in - because for me, if I can figure out his perspective (which is usually so very different than mine) then I have a starting point to address the specific issue.

I don't think this is coddling him or giving him the false sense of security you mention. This is, through lots of trial and error, what works best for him. He doesn't get to be an asswipe any more than anyone else does - probably less because I never want him to use his challenges as a crutch/excuse or pass.

This is an example of awesome parenting, imo, and NOT head-patting AT ALL!!

[SuperFemme]

My experience has been to not say anything about having been on a respirator for 2 months and not having enough oxygen to my brain, which changed me physically, emotionally, and mentally.
Some changes have been for the good. I just celebrated 11 years clean and sober, have a loving spouse and terrific custom-made family, and am on the edge of completing a 4 year college program for a B.S. degree.
Changes that are not so good is mainly that my bio-family doesn't recognize that inside challenges are also "disabilities". {By that I mean that my information processing is very different from the "norm".} They constantly expect and remind me of what I "should" be doing, without taking into account of what I am ABLE to do. It isn't for the lack of ambition, it's because I'm aware of what I'm capable of doing.

My CM-family learn and help each other to overcome our challenges, and help each other with things that are difficult or impossible. For example, the 12 yo supervises me with knifes, tells me to be careful when we are walking, and everyone knows we can not keep a supply of glassware because I tend to forget that I can't hang on to them, which results in broken glass.

Head patting is for sissies. Expect more and get more.

When I hear people say, "Well, He/She was drunk ... {fill in the blank}", it makes me cringe, cause that's the same kind of "pass" being referred to in this thread. To say, it's ok for someone to treat someone else in a crappy way because "He/She is ... {fill in the blank}", not only excuses bad/undesirable behavior, but sets a horrible example for the young ones. Children need to see adults treating each other compassionately and fairly.

Thanks honey. In case anyone didn't know we're married, Plato and I.

It was kismet that two people with brain injuries found each other. We were paralyzed on opposite sides of our bodies, so together we are a complete and functioning right and left.

I know that we both get our different abilities dismissed by our families. In some ugly ways.

I know that you and the kids understand that I cannot taste or smell. You all try to have food ideas that involve texture. The children know that the loss of two of my senses heightened the ones I have left. So if a stranger were to observe our family eat potato chips it would probably come off as very fucking strange. Everyone gingerly tries to fish a chip out of the bag without making crinkling noises. OR they dump them all out and get rid of the bag FAST so as to end the crinkling.

Noises hurt my head and make me feel very very angry. Paper is the worst I think.

We all take care of each other but nobody "gets away" with anything. Ever. We have a tough crowd. The kids have to have patience with two parents operating on limited short term and long term memory. So they are responsible for writing stuff down. Otherwise I am going to get mad and insist "I never said that".

Conversely, they both know how to use those very things to their advantage and will "work it". Sigh.

Thank god for chosen family.

[Plato]

I had limitations. I had to adapt to them.

Example: I wanted to be a teacher. Um, if I need an interpreter to be a student, how am I gonna be a teacher?

Limitations. They suck.

I think that after completing your school-work, you would be a awesome teacher, because you would know how to motivate those who think they are "unabled".

Your life experience is unique and priceless.

[christie]

This is an example of awesome parenting, imo, and NOT head-patting AT ALL!!

Thank you for your kind words, but I didn't post it to have any sort of recognition. I wanted to talk about how I process with DA's and how it might actually not be fair to the nonDA's - because I don't give them the same amount of energy in trying to figure out their reality.

Am I being preferrential in some way - holding the DA to the same expectation as a nonDA but allowing more processing? Its something for me to look at, for certain.

[Plato]

We all take care of each other but nobody "gets away" with anything. Ever. We have a tough crowd.
Thank god for chosen family.

Plus, our chosen family has grown by one for a few weeks.
She is learning some patience skills by osmosis ..... :glasses:

[SuperFemme]

Thank you for your kind words, but I didn't post it to have any sort of recognition. I wanted to talk about how I process with DA's and how it might actually not be fair to the nonDA's - because I don't give them the same amount of energy in trying to figure out their reality.

Am I being preferrential in some way - holding the DA to the same expectation as a nonDA but allowing more processing? Its something for me to look at, for certain.

As you said, nonDA's have a complete set of things that would garner room for processing as well.

I don't have an exact answer for you. Before we are DA or non DA we are human, susceptible to human error.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;151869]Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow :rrose:

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's - DA or not - notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.

[SuperFemme]

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;151869]Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow :rrose:

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.



What is an NT?
What do you mean by "being the majority"?

[christie]

[quote=violaine;151949]


What is an NT?
What do you mean by "being the majority"?

NT = Neuro-Typical

[SuperFemme]

[quote=SuperFemme;151952]

NT = Neuro-Typical


ah. thank you

[Corkey]

Neuro typical are the majority of people with brains that function in a typical fashion. I hate using normal, cause there are all kinds of normal.

[SuperFemme]

I think that there is a darned good system in place to deal with NT people that don't "follow the rules". I hear what you are saying but I don't want to get too far sidetracked into how NT people are assholes too and "get away" with it. I think it detracts from what we are talking about here.

We are a self policed community here, and how "we" choose to deal with each other is super important.

What I am exploring here is fair and equitable treatment for people who are differently abled, and how maybe we have a different set of expectations sometimes.

[Corkey]

Sometimes I think it does take being repetitive, to the point of pulling ones hair out. Some just don't have the capacity to remember the social cues that the rest of us NT's take for granted. I know my wife has to go thru this on a daily basis when she is at work, and that is with NT folks, not just the individuals she has to take care of. Do they get a pass, no because their behavior is still in question and it is addressed. I do think personally that NT folks have a greater responsibility for patience. Or not, this requires one remove the offending person from their life.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;151967]What I am exploring here is fair and equitable treatment for people who are differently abled, and how maybe we have a different set of expectations sometimes.

yes, and i am DA, and am participating in this thread topic as such, addressing the very same thing - fairness - from every angle.

[Apocalipstic]

I think that there is a darned good system in place to deal with NT people that don't "follow the rules". I hear what you are saying but I don't want to get too far sidetracked into how NT people are assholes too and "get away" with it. I think it detracts from what we are talking about here.

We are a self policed community here, and how "we" choose to deal with each other is super important.

What I am exploring here is fair and equitable treatment for people who are differently abled, and how maybe we have a different set of expectations sometimes.

Is it bad to have a different set of expectations? In all respect, I am not trying to be negative.

I agree that pity is bad, and treating with kid gloves is bad....but what about different types of communication where someone might read like an asshole to the average person, when really they are not trying to be an asshole at all?

I have pretty much stopped mentioning when someone is AS as an explanation for behavior because the answer always is..."so and so is not stupid", then I feel stupid for even bringing it up because the post was clear as day to me as not assholish and I must be stupid to be able to understand it clearly.

The difference between many people who are Autistic and on the Spectrum is that we don't see ourselves as having a disability. We see ourselves as having a different way of being which some of us even see as being superior (hence the problem I think)...and I know this can cause anger in Neurotypical people. I have experienced it myself.

Heck NO I don't want pity, but I don't want to be like everyone else either, except for maybe you SuperFemme! xoxoxxo

[SuperFemme]

Is it bad to have a different set of expectations? In all respect, I am not trying to be negative.

I agree that pity is bad, and treating with kid gloves is bad....but what about different types of communication where someone might read like an asshole to the average person, when really they are not trying to be an asshole at all?

I have pretty much stopped mentioning when someone is AS as an explanation for behavior because the answer always is..."so and so is not stupid", then I feel stupid for even bringing it up because the post was clear as day to me as not assholish and I must be stupid to be able to understand it clearly.

The difference between many people who are Autistic and on the Spectrum is that we don't see ourselves as having a disability. We see ourselves as having a different way of being which some of us even see as being superior (hence the problem I think)...and I know this can cause anger in Neurotypical people. I have experienced it myself.

Heck NO I don't want pity, but I don't want to be like everyone else either, except for maybe you SuperFemme! xoxoxxo

I am not talking about expectations, although I do think that if we are going to take the time to understand and communicate with people of different abilities that we can take an extra moment and give that same consideration to NT people too if we want to.

I am speaking to a different set of rules/consequences. Really, even if consequences are on a case by case basis (which isn't a bad thing and is my understanding this happens across the board here by mods/owners) at then end of the day are the rules different?

If so, then how is that empowering and a positive thing?

I don't have autism/AS so I don't really know what things look like for somebody that does. Since you know maybe you can tell me if you would feel ok with having a different set of rules than the rest of the world?

Because I am super interested in hearing from ALL kinds of differently abled people.

If someone doesn't consider themselves as such, I respect that. Who am I to label? As for you bringing it up and the response being "that person is not stupid"? That is not a response from a person who wants to communicate. That is a response from a person who is deeply invested in being "right".

I get pretty fumed at the expectation of stupidity in relation to being differently abled. I want to punch people that say "You're so smart, I'd never know you had a TBI".

Instead? I try to educate. If it's a moot point, I don't try very hard.

[MrSunshine]

Passes. I don't get them or give them.

[Apocalipstic]

Ah, now I get it! Rules.

No, I do not think there should be a different set of rules. The TOS is clearly stated.

Do I think we should try a little harder to understand each other? Yes! I know there is not a word for phobia or an "ism" for people on the spectrum, but I see it in action by well meaning people like we do racism, sexism, DAism, sizeism, etc.

We hold to what is familiar.




I am not talking about expectations, although I do think that if we are going to take the time to understand and communicate with people of different abilities that we can take an extra moment and give that same consideration to NT people too if we want to.

I am speaking to a different set of rules/consequences. Really, even if consequences are on a case by case basis (which isn't a bad thing and is my understanding this happens across the board here by mods/owners) at then end of the day are the rules different?

If so, then how is that empowering and a positive thing?

I don't have autism/AS so I don't really know what things look like for somebody that does. Since you know maybe you can tell me if you would feel ok with having a different set of rules than the rest of the world?

Because I am super interested in hearing from ALL kinds of differently abled people.

If someone doesn't consider themselves as such, I respect that. Who am I to label? As for you bringing it up and the response being "that person is not stupid"? That is not a response from a person who wants to communicate. That is a response from a person who is deeply invested in being "right".

I get pretty fumed at the expectation of stupidity in relation to being differently abled. I want to punch people that say "You're so smart, I'd never know you had a TBI".

Instead? I try to educate. If it's a moot point, I don't try very hard.

[AtLast]

I think that there is a darned good system in place to deal with NT people that don't "follow the rules". I hear what you are saying but I don't want to get too far sidetracked into how NT people are assholes too and "get away" with it. I think it detracts from what we are talking about here.

We are a self policed community here, and how "we" choose to deal with each other is super important.

What I am exploring here is fair and equitable treatment for people who are differently abled, and how maybe we have a different set of expectations sometimes.

Thanks for this thread. I will be back to participate later. Gotta get some household stuff done, today!

My 30 year old great-nephew will soon be living close to me as he enters graduate school. He is not only a young man born with V.A.T.E.R.'s Syndrome (also known as V.A.C.T.E.R.L. syndrome) with life-long physical ramifications, hospitalizations and surgeries. He also also deals with Asperger's syndrome.

Will be good to be able to read some things, here, I believe.

http://specialchildren.about.com/od/diagnosisindex/g/VATER.htm

[Apocalipstic]

I am not talking about expectations, although I do think that if we are going to take the time to understand and communicate with people of different abilities that we can take an extra moment and give that same consideration to NT people too if we want to.

I am speaking to a different set of rules/consequences. Really, even if consequences are on a case by case basis (which isn't a bad thing and is my understanding this happens across the board here by mods/owners) at then end of the day are the rules different?

If so, then how is that empowering and a positive thing?

I don't have autism/AS so I don't really know what things look like for somebody that does. Since you know maybe you can tell me if you would feel ok with having a different set of rules than the rest of the world?

Because I am super interested in hearing from ALL kinds of differently abled people.

If someone doesn't consider themselves as such, I respect that. Who am I to label? As for you bringing it up and the response being "that person is not stupid"? That is not a response from a person who wants to communicate. That is a response from a person who is deeply invested in being "right".

I get pretty fumed at the expectation of stupidity in relation to being differently abled. I want to punch people that say "You're so smart, I'd never know you had a TBI".

Instead? I try to educate. If it's a moot point, I don't try very hard.

PS, and I appologize if I sounded like NT people are assholes too! Some of my best friends are NT's. Ha!

Everyone can be an asshole.

And maybe, on further reflection that is the point you are making? No passes for being an asshole no matter what your deal or excuse might be?

Because if so? I agree 100% as long as we are making completely sure the person is indeed an asshole (like Balloon Boy's dad, apparently ;))

[The_Lady_Snow]

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;151869]Ms Apoca I am gonna jump off your post.

So what does one do when you have made it clear, a THOUSAND times with patience, with kindness and the person still does not respect those boundaries?

Do I just chalk it up to the fact they have a disability and they are gonna use that as an excuse time and time again?

Curious how you would handle this cause I don't have a soft buffer like yourself?

TheLadySnow :rrose:

i was thinking apocalipstic's post was really good [to me] about her ability to understand posts, over the years, which may have been written by DA, and NT moderated.

your question, although it's to apocalipstic, i would like to respond to, please. in my own experiences, i could ask the very same thing about NT's who disrespect boundaries time and time again- do i chalk it up to being the 'majority?"

this is very interesting, because i sometimes have wondered if NT's - DA or not - notice certain things, which can get lost during my translation to someone not on the spectrum, whenever i try to explain what i just heard and/or saw - and these NT words/behaviours can happen rapid-fire.



We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no? We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

[adorable]

I give people passes. Differently abled - perfectly abled - any kind of abled.

We ALL have something that isn't right. For some of us, how we are raised means that we don't have appropriate social skills. Some might talk like an asshole to everyone, scream and yell - say all kinds of mean and stupid things. My grandfather comes to mind. I have a choice as to whether or not I interact with him. I chose to. I do that because I love him and know that his life was way harder then mine and that in his heart he cares about me. Would people call him abusive? Yep and he sure can be. I give him a pass and deal with him knowing full well what that means. He cannot change. He dropped out of school in the 7th or 8th grade. He is 81 years old. He has good qualities. I don't have to agree with everything he says or even like it. I shrug it off and consider the source for his information or accusations. I chose how I react to him.

I have someone who works for me that is developmentally disabled and has the mental capacity of a 13 year old girl. I give her passes all day long. She is 25 years old. She cannot change. I interact with her and view her as a 13 year old girl, she's worked for me for six years. She lies. She gets boy crazy. Makes bad choices. I do not hold her to the same level of accountability as others on my staff. It wouldn't make sense. She doesn't function at that level. Her life, outside of her job, is 100% harder. She is picked on by strangers on the street, mocked and sometimes taken advantage of. For that alone I will give her a pass. I don't need to kick her ass all day - the minute she leaves the world will do it for her. She suffers from OCD too. She has destroyed things because of it. It's frustrating to deal with for me personally. But I know it is 10x worse for her. Her capacity to understand things is not likely to change. She is capable of learning, but a capacity to truly understand? Not likely.

I have a brain "issue" that at different times can make me loopy. That is the least of what it can do. I am smart. Really smart. I am also quick. I'm hard to fool. I can think clearly much of the time. The problem is in those loopy moments, I don't know I'm loopy. People that love me get it. They are whose opinions matter to me. I will be given a pass, if for no other reason then they are grateful to have me here on this earth. And because when it is happening - I don't know it. I don't have the capacity to recognize it. So someone could get all up in my face and they might as well just keep their blood pressure down. It won't do a damn bit of good. And my "insubordination" is not a reflection of anyone's screaming ability. It has to do with how the world appears to me at that moment which might just be all spinny with multicolored glitter.

There is a difference between pushing someone for their own good - for instance - to walk again with positive cheerleading. Then there is expecting something that someone doesn't have the capacity to give. My mother used a belt to potty train me. I didn't ever hit my kids, but I did tell them to get up if they fell down. No crying. Get back up and keep moving. I regret that. I wish I had hugged them more and demanded less. Oh, I'm sure it helped toughen them up. But now, at 35 I am trying to learn how to be softer. I hope I haven't caused either of them the resentment that I have spent trying to undo towards my own mother for all that screaming, demanding and ridiculous expectations of steel. Sometimes, no matter how tough we are - we all need a pass. A safe place to fall. Understanding and compassion go a lot farther then screaming and yelling and demanding. I make a choice of interacting with the people I do - if I can't handle it - it's simply best if I don't.

My ex has severe mental illnesses. She has done shitty things without as much as a sincere apology. She doesn't have the capacity. I can scream, yell, jump up and down, call her on her shit - hold a gun to her - and she still doesn't have capacity. Does she have a pass? She did. I don't hold people responsible for illnesses like that. I did expect her to go on medication. There were consequences for not doing that. We both live with that every day. I didn't have to raise my voice either. She's not stupid or a bad person. She is sick and very differently abled. I talk to her in the way that does the best good and try to keep in mind that today I am lucky enough to know the difference in a way that she may not - ever. I live in reality. My reality. Not everyone does. Handing out passes doesn't cost me a damn thing. There are plenty of people out there that hold on to them like gold wrapper on a willy wonka bar.

[MrSunshine]

PS, and I appologize if I sounded like NT people are assholes too! Some of my best friends are NT's. Ha!

Everyone can be an asshole.

And maybe, on further reflection that is the point you are making? No passes for being an asshole no matter what your deal or excuse might be?

Because if so? I agree 100% as long as we are making completely sure the person is indeed an asshole (like Balloon Boy's dad, apparently ;))



When you find a way to figure out if someone is an asshole and are completely sure let us all in on it???

I was just thinking about this thread and assholes (of all things). There really is NO way of knowing what is up with everyone on ANY given site.
I've seen a quote on a few people's page that says something about "everyone you meet is going through something" (okay, my memory blows) you get the point though right? Still no pass.

[Apocalipstic]

[quote=violaine;151949]


We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no? We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?


You are right we do have to have the same rules for everyone.

But say if you said something some people took wrong and I knew it was because English is not your first language, I would say so and be supportive of you.

I really like it that we have time outs on this website before full on banning, so people can think about what they did to break the rules.

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?

[MrSunshine]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;152040]


Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?


This is a damn good question.

[Apocalipstic]

When you find a way to figure out if someone is an asshole and are completely sure let us all in on it???

I was just thinking about this thread and assholes (of all things). There really is NO way of knowing what is up with everyone on ANY given site.
I've seen a quote on a few people's page that says something about "everyone you meet is going through something" (okay, my memory blows) you get the point though right? Still no pass.


On the rules? I agree.

and good point on assholes, sometimes I give pass after pass after pass until I have nothing left and walk away.

[The_Lady_Snow]

[quote=The_Lady_Snow;152040]


You are right we do have to have the same rules for everyone.

But say if you said something some people took wrong and I knew it was because English is not your first language, I would say so and be supportive of you.

I really like it that we have time outs on this website before full on banning, so people can think about what they did to break the rules.

Is it possible that some people have too much going on to be a valuable asset to an on line community?


Because I know I have to decipher things from spanish to english, then fucking read through the cryptic lettering and put it all together in my head I watch what I say.

I read posts sometimes 20 times and still I fuck up, I don't expect anyone to pat pat me or use a different filter.

*I* don't want that.

I am just the same as everyone else with the same rules

[Apocalipstic]

[quote=apocalipstic;152046]


Because I know I have to decipher things from spanish to english, then fucking read through the cryptic lettering and put it all together in my head I watch what I say.

I read posts sometimes 20 times and still I fuck up, I don't expect anyone to pat pat me or use a different filter.

*I* don't want that.

I am just the same as everyone else with the same rules


I get what you are saying and agree. I do the same thing.

I highlight so I can read the print if the color is too light, change the damn font size on my computer, try to take into account what the person might be feeling or what they REALLY might mean, where they might be from, what does their slang mean (I look that up)....etc...etc...so i can try to know how to answer. Then I try to make my sentence phrasing and spelling sound like I am from the US..............

But bottom line, you are right! Hell, if you and I can follow the rules, then they can't be that hard to follow.

[Liam]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.


So I have to ask you Liam, if this person has been asked a THOUSAND times to back off, and one has reiterated their boundaries time and time again with them I should give them a pass and fuck my safe space?

[Corkey]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.


I'm not sure a pass per say. I think showing this type of person how and why their behavior is inappropriate. There are some who have short term memory loss and will never get their behavior is inappropriate. That doesn't mean they get a pass, they get talked to, shown and yes umpteen times if needed. Look if we can't be compassionate about those who are in this community and who have mental abilities that aren't the same as ours, what does that say about us?

[Liam]

So I have to ask you Liam, if this person has been asked a THOUSAND times to back off, and one has reiterated their boundaries time and time again with them I should give them a pass and fuck my safe space?

If they have indeed been asked a thousand times and seem to not understand boundaries then, it would seem to me, that clearly they lack social competence, and they really don't know how to do what you would like them to do.

Would not putting them on ignore, maintain your safe space?

[The_Lady_Snow]

If they have indeed been asked a thousand times and seem to not understand boundaries then, it would seem to me, that clearly they lack social competence, and they really don't know how to do what you would like them to do.

Would not putting them on ignore, maintain your safe space?

Nah

I don't like putting anything on ignore it keeps me aware of my surroundings and what is coming at me..

*shrugs*

I don't agree with you, I feel if someone is asking another person to respect their boundaries and to back off they should be held accountable period.

I am heartless perhaps but ok with that

[SuperFemme]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.

I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.

As a person with severe brain injury I hear what you are saying. In fact I live with what you are saying.

In my brain injury rehab there were a lot of young men. A LOT of them were very sexually inappropriate. Hell, *I* was sexually inappropriate at first too. I would grab nurses rear ends and ask incredibly inappropriate sexual question. I was often kicked out of therapies. By the time I was done I had had 11 different occupational therapists. 11!!!!

At rehab, there was a warning, and then there was either suspension or expulsion from the program. At occupational therapy? Same thing.

Why is that do you think? The very places we are at for help are kicking us out! I used to get soooo angry.

Until I had an "aha" moment. That was as follows: when I am inappropriate with myself there is just me. With my loved ones? There is more lee-way for a pass, but they can walk away. To strangers? Well aha! No nurse deserves to be groped. Or made the object of sexual inappropriateness. The is not just "me" involved any longer when I am inappropriate or don't follow the rules. To put greater value on *me* because I am disabled erases the other human being involved. After being kicked out of 11 occupational therapy programs? I figured out that a little self gratification in my room was probably a WAY better idea than getting kicked out again, and I was running out of options.

I don't think it's fair to place greater equitable value on one human being than another. So if a person is on this site, is differently abled and been talked to and talked to and worked with? And still is sexually inappropriate, or calling names, or any other number of behaviors? Then consequences are in order.

I also think it's dangerous to assume that everyone is NOT differently abled just because you haven't been told otherwise. I have seen one differently abled person do all the things I mentioned above to another differently abled person and never have a clue that that was the case.

So again, I am not asking the site to lose it's compassion. In fact I am not even purporting to tell others what to do.

But I am asking you (specific and general) to not give me Adele a pass where you normally wouldn't give one. Please. It doesn't help me.

I may be a lot of things, but I have NOT been fighting for equality both in the Queer world and the Disabled world to have it taken away from me against my will.

Just like I got a marriage license last year here in CA. If I were to ever break up? I would fully expect to go through the same thing hetero couples go through. Divorce, sharing of property, child support, and spousal support should all be taken into consideration. I don't get to rip up my marriage license and not have the same consequences because "Queer marriage is now illegal".

I don't want to participate on this site, within my own community as anything other than an equal. I don't want differently abled to be the only lens you see me through, or the first thought when debating with me.

I'm willing to do the work, and follow the rules. I'm willing to learn. I can't do that if I never know I am wrong.

I can only truly make this plea for myself, but I would hope that all differently abled people would be treated as equals. Not separate but equal.

Edited to add: I am NOT asking for a lack of compassion, or for people to lose all patience and empathy with me. Or anyone else. Not at all. A pass does not = working with somebody. I've tried really hard to make that clear but feel I've got a big fat fail because I don't feel heard.

[Corkey]

Equality is great, and people should be held accountable, no matter how many times it needs to happen. With people who are fully capable of doing so. Some just aren't, and they are the ones I will work with, not give a pass to, but work with. I think we are saying the same thing. If we are referring to an individual, who is fully aware that their behavior is inappropriate, then yes they need to be held accountable. Ones rights end at the beginning of another's nose.

[Massive]

I'm definitely differently-abled, and have been now for quite a few years.
I have rheumatoid arthritis and, since I tore the ligaments in my lower left back, I now have an on and off back injury to deal with, it can go from my literally turning my head.
Part of me resents when I get looks from older people now, because I sit at the front on public transport, here if you're disabled or elderly they ask that the first few rows of seats are given up to the disabled or elderly, and since the disability act was passed here a few years back, a disabled person has more right to be on a bus than someone with a pushchair and child.
I appreciate when friends ask if I'm able to do the same things as they do, although I keep reminding them that I've had RA now since I was 18, so I know my limits, I know what I can and can't do, and do my own risk assessment ahead of time. At the same time it does feel like some of them are trying to hand me this mythical 'pass' like a get out of jail free card in monopoly, to just say, "It's okay, we'll just walk slower/talk to hym like hy's slow because hy's not the same as us." kind of attitude.
The majority of my friends know beyond a doubt if they treat me that way they'll find out pretty damn sharply not to do it again, ever. However, I also have a certain group of friends, who I now rarely make the effort to see, who tell me I can't call myself disabled, because I don't look it, you can't see my RA, I'm lucky enough that it hasn't progressed to the point where my knuckles and fingers are twisted with it, you can't see my back injury, apart from when I can barely walk, and then I sometimes get "Oh, you're just too fat, you need to lose weight." yeah, that'd help, but what helps more is not having ignorant feckers say things like that to me when I'm already having a day bad enough that I can't just use my cane to walk, I'm using crutches.
I often want to say to these people, okay, if you think living a life like this is so easy, spend a day in my shoes, see what it's like to walk around feeling like there's a mix of ground glass and acid poured into every joint, try walking with someone jabbing you in the back with a knife at every step, try pulling your head out your arse and realise that just because I'm not the same as you doesn't mean I can't understand english, I'm not stupid, it's just my body can't keep up with the rest of me, and this is how I'm going to be for the rest of my life.
I do have a badge for parking, which stays with me so I can use it in whichever car I'm in, I do sit in the seats at the front of the bus, I do have to sit, making sure either my crutches or cane are visible so I don't get elderly people glaring at me accusingly.
I do have a life, I just have to live it a little bit slower and more carefully than those who have nothing wrong with them.
I am a human being, I deserve the same respect as anyone else so why is it so damn hard to receive this?

Also wanted to add, for anyone who hadn't noticed 'here' for me is the UK...

[SuperFemme]

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

[Ursy]

Interesting thread...

You know, I wonder every single day - what would it be like to be neurotypical? Would it make life any easier? Would I like it? Would I hate it? (I have Asperger's)

Anyway...

As for the subject of passes or not, I'm finding the concept difficult to negotiate in my head. On the one hand, it is *not* a level playing field... but on the other hand, I get what you're saying Adele - everyone should take responsibility for their own shitty behaviour. I guess the complicating factor for me - as some have said: sometimes what appears to be shitty behaviour REALLY isn't - and most people don't bother trying to clarify things first before jumping all over someone who never meant any offence in the first place. I've seen it happen COUNTLESS times.

I'm all for giving passes - but not just for DA people, everyone. Everyone has a bad day now and then, everyone stuffs up, expresses something badly, misreads something. It's just about giving folks the benefit of the doubt. It's giving them a chance to clarify things before I write them off as a jerk or an asshole. It's not assuming that my first interpretation was the correct and only interpretation.

So I guess by that definition, I'm not giving passes. Can they be passes if you give them to everyone? Lol. Maybe I've gone off on a tangent.

[Plato]

We ALL have something that isn't right.... Would people call him abusive? Yep and he sure can be. I give him a pass and deal with him knowing full well what that means. He cannot change.

I have someone who works for me that is developmentally disabled and has the mental capacity of a 13 year old girl. I give her passes all day long. She is 25 years old. She cannot change.

Then there is expecting something that someone doesn't have the capacity to give. Sometimes, no matter how tough we are - we all need a pass.


Compassion for the limits of someone else is NOT giving a pass. Making excuses for why folks cannot change is bs.

I was told that I would die or be in prison forever because addicts don't change.
I was told that I wouldn't walk again due to the lack of oxygen and 6 months of hospitalization.

WRONG on both counts and shame on those who were so willing to write me off.

If such perceptions are kept low and comfortable, there isn't a reason to change. Change is difficult and time consuming. The goals may never be met, but without big dreams there can be no big rewards. The motivation TO CHANGE can only be achieved when the consequences for staying the same are larger than the rewards for changing.

[Liam]

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

I hear you saying that as a person with Traumatic Brain Injury, you are differently abled, and that you wish to be held accountable for what you say, how you say it, as well as how you behave. I hear you saying that you wish to be held accountable by the same standards of those who are not differently abled.

[Corkey]

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

I for one think this is an invaluable thread, and no I think you are saying what you are just fine. if my opinion matters to you, and I think it does. No i don't feel shamed one iota. I do tend to call folks out on isms and for getting in other folks space, when it isn't their place to do so.

[Ursy]

Right now I really really want to be dramatic and declare the thread closed, apologize for bringing this up and make innuendos that I am leaving and boy will everyone be sorry. Really bad.

Instead.

I'm going to take a deep breath and try to figure out where I am not saying this correctly.

Is it that I haven't defined "the mythical *pass*"?

Am I shaming people who try hard to give room and leeway to DA people?

Am I just stuck on my thought and not hearing people?

No no, I think I hear you!

I guess it's just a very emotive topic, and there are all kinds of issues feeding into it and surrounding it, and its meaning has so many different nuances and so many different connotations to different people. It's a challenging subject, but I think we're going somewhere with it.

[SuperFemme]

I hear you saying that as a person with Traumatic Brain Injury, you are differently abled, and that you wish to be held accountable for what you say, how you say it, as well as how you behave. I hear you saying that you wish to be held accountable by the same standards of those who are not differently abled.

I am saying that I want the same rules.

I am uncomfortable saying that there is only one way of accountability, because people communicate on a myriad of levels.

I am saying that I want the opportunity to be accountable.

That means I want to know if I've done something wrong. I don't want people to be afraid to tell me.

I also don't want everyone to erase all caring and compassion when doing so.

If I had not been thrown out of 10 occupational therapists? I would not have learned that my behavior was unacceptable. So it took me ten times, but then again I was cognitively around 5 or 6 years old. I am closer to my real age now, but it took years.

So usually I am able to learn in three or less. :)

[violaine]

[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;152040][quote=violaine;151949]


We have all joined a site, that has a set of rules, we all live in a society with sets of rules. Be we either NT or not we have to abide to the rules and boundaries that are set by one another or that have been already set.

yes, this site has rules, and yes, there are individuals here who have set boundaries.

So NT or DA matters not, I could use the fact that english is not my first language and I am dyslexic, then again you are assuming we are all NT no?

assumptions, no - & not 'all'.

We all have a knowing of what is right and wrong, if we do not have that comprehension then we are asking for trouble if allowance is being given time and time again because of someone's illness

Make sense?

not exactly!

i'm not sure that i agree with you on the following: 'we all' have a knowing of what is right and wrong".

actually, some things may not be a matter of right or wrong, they may 'just be' - and without any kind of agenda.

i do like to ask for further clarification whenever i'm unsure on a topic, and hope not be read as being in the wrong, or out to start trouble.

ps- if i fork up, please let me know, and i will apologise.

[SuperFemme]

I for one think this is an invaluable thread, and no I think you are saying what you are just fine. if my opinion matters to you, and I think it does. No i don't feel shamed one iota. I do tend to call folks out on isms and for getting in other folks space, when it isn't their place to do so.

Thank you Corkey. Yes, your opinion matters to me greatly.

No no, I think I hear you!

I guess it's just a very emotive topic, and there are all kinds of issues feeding into it and surrounding it, and its meaning has so many different nuances and so many different connotations to different people. It's a challenging subject, but I think we're going somewhere with it.

Thank you to Urs. I think you are right about all kinds of issues feeding into it and the many nuances. I appreciate the reminder, because sometimes I get frustrated and my brain gets "flooded" which means that I have a hard time processing. I may be flooded right now.

[christie]

I am saying that I want the same rules.

I am uncomfortable saying that there is only one way of accountability, because people communicate on a myriad of levels.

I am saying that I want the opportunity to be accountable.

That means I want to know if I've done something wrong. I don't want people to be afraid to tell me.

I also don't want everyone to erase all caring and compassion when doing so.

If I had not been thrown out of 10 occupational therapists? I would not have learned that my behavior was unacceptable. So it took me ten times, but then again I was cognitively around 5 or 6 years old. I am closer to my real age now, but it took years.

So usually I am able to learn in three or less. :)

I am gonna jump out on a limb here and give a specific example of how I try to apply that lens and I hope you don't mind my using it nor do I want anyone to think I am tooting my own horn....

Jess started a thread something about "What do you do". (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=840) SF, you misread the intent and popped off your response based on what you thought the intent was. I thought it rather dismissive and rather than pop off a one liner telling you that I thought you were being dismissive, I took the time and effort to post an explanation that expanded upon the OP. (#17)

You understood it then and went on to make a great post full of non-monetary suggestions.

Was this me giving you a pass? Not to me it wasn't. This was me taking into consideration what you have shared about having TBI and trying to find that different language to communicate the same as Jess. I think that this is the "with caring and compassion" of which you speak.

I think that as an online community, we do no differently than we do in our real communities and homes. I don't discount the lesser educated production worker any more than I want that worker to discount me. Their contribution to the community of our workplace is just as vital as mine.

I know that Snow is making reference to a specific individual and that must be a really tough place to be in.

I do think, however severely DA a person might be, they still have the same needs as those less DA or NT - they still deserve to be here and to contribute in their own ways and I think they still have to be accountable for their actions within the community. I do think that there are considerations and the endless explanations and repeated conversations to be done in order to assist those persons in being here.

To that end, what about a buddy system? What if there were a group of volunteers who rotated buddy duty? I know firsthand how taxing the repetitive explanations can be and how your patience is quickly drained. If there was a rotation of sorts, no one person would be overly utilized and it would give the DA person the opportunity to interact with others and perhaps, through hearing the same message in a different voice, it might just be the "Eureka!" moment.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

[christie]

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

I apologize if you thought I was out of line in my reference to you, I was merely trying to be supportive because its not like I can't read the posts between you and one individual who has declared themselves to be DA. If you have had these boundary issues with more than one DA person here, its not been apparent in the threads.

I thought my reference was one of empathy and went on to give an idea of how we as a community might be better able to be supportive of your reinforcing your personal boundaries while at the same time being supportive of the DA person.

Again, if this isn't germane to the conversation, I apologize and we clearly see this thread differently.

[adorable]

Compassion for the limits of someone else is NOT giving a pass. Making excuses for why folks cannot change is bs.

I was told that I would die or be in prison forever because addicts don't change.
I was told that I wouldn't walk again due to the lack of oxygen and 6 months of hospitalization.

WRONG on both counts and shame on those who were so willing to write me off.

If such perceptions are kept low and comfortable, there isn't a reason to change. Change is difficult and time consuming. The goals may never be met, but without big dreams there can be no big rewards. The motivation TO CHANGE can only be achieved when the consequences for staying the same are larger than the rewards for changing.


Some people do not have moments of clarity. In order for someone to change they have to understand the wrong. Just because SOME people have that ability doesn't mean that all do. I'm sure that in recovery you've heard "The capacity to be honest..." Not every addict or alcoholic has it. Everyone will eventually walk away from them and they will end up institutionalized, in jail or dead. This stems from CHOICES that they made.

With mental illness there is no choice to be made. Nor is there in developmental disability or some brain injuries or some disorders. That motivation to change that you speak of only comes with the ability to understand the underlying need for change - a level of self awareness that comes with the ability to rationalize and understand behavior and an ability to control that behavior. Also known as hitting bottom. It can be relative to the person that you are dealing with for lots of different reasons. Not everyone is aware and I promise that all the yelling in the world will not make someone able to understand when that ability doesn't exist. I think it's self centered to think that because I am enlightened - that I get it - everyone else must too so they must be making a choice to piss me off, annoy me, not act right.....then I can take that one step further and hold the world accountable to MY standard of right and wrong.

I have the luxury of choice. I can wake up tomorrow and CHOOSE how I will conduct myself in public. How I will interact with people, how I will wear my hair and what color my nails will be. I will choose to walk out the door just once. But what if I wake up tomorrow and believe that if I don't walk out the door perfectly 15 times that I will die? What if I can't walk out the door perfectly? What if you think that is stupid? Is it better to scream at me that it's stupid, cause me internal panic and conflict then force me out the door anyway because YOU know and that shit ain't gonna fly with you? People can and do kill themselves to stop the torment.

What if I believe that there are people who are trying to kill me? There is no uncertainty. I know it. I hear people that I know whispering that in my ears. I can smell the fear in a room. I see smoke. It's real to people who feel it, who see it. That is their reality. Go ahead and tell them they have a choice to come out from behind the couch. That it's not true. That no one is trying to kill them - it's all make believe. Then, come back and let me know how that worked out for you. I can tell you how it ends.

Or tell someone who is really 13 years old, even though she looks much older that she needs to put down her cell phone and get back to work. Tell her 30 times. Hell, go ahead and tell her 100 times. Treat her the same as everyone else. Rules are rules. Fire her for not listening like a 25 year old should listen because YOU said so. Sorry. That doesn't work for me. She is not 25, her brain doesn't function at the same level. There are rules for our society. By our societal standards she shouldn't even have a job. She can't even chew with her mouth closed. Not because she doesn't know she should, but because her brain can't focus on chewing AND keeping her mouth closed. That isn't funny. That is her reality. I celebrate her ability to have a job at all. I focus on what she does right. I will tell her and try to guide her, but telling someone all about themselves and their shortcomings when they don't have the ability to understand - seems abusive. Who really gets something out of that?

I wouldn't give someone making a choice to do something destructive a pass in the same way. I am talking about the ability to think, understand, comprehend and possession of a critical thinking ability. Not everyone has it. It's rather easy and privileged to think everyone should.

To me it similar to thinking everyone should just speak English or just move out of the projects if they want a better life. It IS that easy right? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people just "got it" and didn't live to annoy the rest of us people with all of our smarts and reasoning?

[SuperFemme]

I am gonna jump out on a limb here and give a specific example of how I try to apply that lens and I hope you don't mind my using it nor do I want anyone to think I am tooting my own horn....

Jess started a thread something about "What do you do". (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=840) SF, you misread the intent and popped off your response based on what you thought the intent was. I thought it rather dismissive and rather than pop off a one liner telling you that I thought you were being dismissive, I took the time and effort to post an explanation that expanded upon the OP. (#17)

You understood it then and went on to make a great post full of non-monetary suggestions.

Was this me giving you a pass? Not to me it wasn't. This was me taking into consideration what you have shared about having TBI and trying to find that different language to communicate the same as Jess. I think that this is the "with caring and compassion" of which you speak.

I think that as an online community, we do no differently than we do in our real communities and homes. I don't discount the lesser educated production worker any more than I want that worker to discount me. Their contribution to the community of our workplace is just as vital as mine.

I know that Snow is making reference to a specific individual and that must be a really tough place to be in.

I do think, however severely DA a person might be, they still have the same needs as those less DA or NT - they still deserve to be here and to contribute in their own ways and I think they still have to be accountable for their actions within the community. I do think that there are considerations and the endless explanations and repeated conversations to be done in order to assist those persons in being here.

To that end, what about a buddy system? What if there were a group of volunteers who rotated buddy duty? I know firsthand how taxing the repetitive explanations can be and how your patience is quickly drained. If there was a rotation of sorts, no one person would be overly utilized and it would give the DA person the opportunity to interact with others and perhaps, through hearing the same message in a different voice, it might just be the "Eureka!" moment.

I appreciate you giving this example. There are totally days that I am not in good form and misread. There are days I don't have my loved ones to read my posts first.

That was one of those days. I would hope that you would give that consideration to anyone. Not just me. Because anyone can misread and pop off.

So no, I don't think that was you giving me a poss. That is not what I am talking about when I say a pass and I think that is where people are getting confused.

Had you taken the time and effort to explain the intent to me, and had I continued coming in and insisting that my interpretation was correct, and kept popping off shitty things? And not been held accountable (reported, pm'd, told in public or whatever) then that is where it becomes something I'd call a pass.

Clarifying ones point and clearing up a misunderstood intent is NOT giving a pass. I also truly hate to think that I got special treatment that you would not give the next person. I hope I am not being rude by saying that I can only remember as reading you patiently explain you point when others don't get it.

It's also a grayer area in the example that you gave because I don't think any rules were broken per se. I think that I was not thoughtful in reading the OP and rude in my reply. Now if I had come in and said: This is stupid. I think you're an asshole" would you have taken the same approach? What if I had continued? I would really hope that you would report me.

So in short, no I don't think you gave me a pass. That is not at all what I meant by giving a pass.

I hope this post gives a better feel for what I am trying to say?

[SuperFemme]

Yeah, I need to step off this convo cause I am not going to be empathetic to the issues, I can understand taking the time and being empathetic but not to the point where I am being dismissed.

I feel if I continue to advocate my set of limits it makes me look like the big bad wolf, I got enough of that going on.. I also would of liked to continue to post without it being pointed out about who has issues with me cause it's not about one particular individual I am talking about people in general I deal with everyone the same each time. Period

I am out.

I wish you wouldn't leave. I want to hear what you have to say.

[SuperFemme]

Clarification: This thread is NOT about any one person. The only personal point of reference in the OP is about me. Adele.

Please do not make this thread about anybody, because it's not and that is not something that is okay to do.

Please do not assume that any one person is being spoken about, because that makes me really super uncomfortable .

[christie]

I appreciate you giving this example. There are totally days that I am not in good form and misread. There are days I don't have my loved ones to read my posts first.

That was one of those days. I would hope that you would give that consideration to anyone. Not just me. Because anyone can misread and pop off.

So no, I don't think that was you giving me a poss. That is not what I am talking about when I say a pass and I think that is where people are getting confused.

Had you taken the time and effort to explain the intent to me, and had I continued coming in and insisting that my interpretation was correct, and kept popping off shitty things? And not been held accountable (reported, pm'd, told in public or whatever) then that where it becomes something I'd call a pass.

Clarifying ones point and clearing up a misunderstood intent is NOT giving a pass. I also truly hate to think that I got special treatment that you would not give the next person. I hope I am not being rude by saying that I can only remember as reading you patiently explain you point when others don't get it.

It's also a grayer area in the example that you gave because I don't think any rules were broken per se. I think that I was not thoughtful in reading the OP and rude in my reply. Now if I had come in and said: This is stupid. I think you're an asshole" would you have taken the same approach? What if I had continued? I would really hope that you would report me.

So in short, no I don't think you gave me a pass. That is not at all what I meant by giving a pass.

I hope this post gives a better feel for what I am trying to say?

I would like to think that most days, I give most people that same consideration.

I do think, however, that its a conditioned response based on parenting a DA child. I know that I have had to learn HOW to be that patient and compassionate. I know that not everyone has that skill set, especially NTs - they (at least the ones in my experience) have no reason to - until they do.

If you had continued a negative rant, I would probably have PM'd you and asked what the fuck your issue was. (How's that for my compassion LOL) I rarely report posts because, at the end of the day, I really do apply that 3F rule (if you dont fuck me, feed me (emotionally or sustenance) or finance me, you really dont have any influence in my life and I try to let it go quickly)

I dont think the answer to the mythical pass is to report posts. I think reporting is a tool - one of many and I think sometimes we are far too quick to hit that button rather than challenge ourselves to find that wave of communication that is mutual and brings understanding.

While we agree that no "rules" were broken, I didnt realize that you were only speaking of the "pass" specifically in rules/TOS terms. To me, the unspoken/unwritten "rules" are much more likely to be broken than the ones that have been clearly stated. I have found that my son (and other DAs) have more issue with the unspoken expectations of socialization far more often than the ones they know about.

Does it make sense that to me, the unspoken social skills/expectations about behaviors and interactions are more problematic than what is covered in the TOS?

[SuperFemme]

I would like to think that most days, I give most people that same consideration.

I do think, however, that its a conditioned response based on parenting a DA child. I know that I have had to learn HOW to be that patient and compassionate. I know that not everyone has that skill set, especially NTs - they (at least the ones in my experience) have no reason to - until they do.

If you had continued a negative rant, I would probably have PM'd you and asked what the fuck your issue was. (How's that for my compassion LOL) I rarely report posts because, at the end of the day, I really do apply that 3F rule (if you dont fuck me, feed me (emotionally or sustenance) or finance me, you really dont have any influence in my life and I try to let it go quickly)

I dont think the answer to the mythical pass is to report posts. I think reporting is a tool - one of many and I think sometimes we are far too quick to hit that button rather than challenge ourselves to find that wave of communication that is mutual and brings understanding.

While we agree that no "rules" were broken, I didnt realize that you were only speaking of the "pass" specifically in rules/TOS terms. To me, the unspoken/unwritten "rules" are much more likely to be broken than the ones that have been clearly stated. I have found that my son (and other DAs) have more issue with the unspoken expectations of socialization far more often than the ones they know about.

Does it make sense that to me, the unspoken social skills/expectations about behaviors and interactions are more problematic than what is covered in the TOS?

As for the report button, that is one of three options I gave. Post back, PM or Report. Because situationally any of these things could be an appropriate response to the example that I gave.

Somtimes, I've heard something from a mod that I wasn't hearing from a member. The report button is not a death sentence to me. It's a valuable tool that can help sometimes.

While I understand where you are coming from social skills/expectations that is not what I am speaking of when discussing a pass.

Social skills and expectations are far too subjective to be "policed", and it would be impossible to apply the idea of giving a pass to somebody because it is so subjective. (to me. outside of my loved ones).

I was speaking about rules. Specifically.

[julieisafemme]

Some people do not have moments of clarity. In order for someone to change they have to understand the wrong. Just because SOME people have that ability doesn't mean that all do. I'm sure that in recovery you've heard "The capacity to be honest..." Not every addict or alcoholic has it. Everyone will eventually walk away from them and they will end up institutionalized, in jail or dead. This stems from CHOICES that they made.

With mental illness there is no choice to be made. Nor is there in developmental disability or some brain injuries or some disorders. That motivation to change that you speak of only comes with the ability to understand the underlying need for change - a level of self awareness that comes with the ability to rationalize and understand behavior and an ability to control that behavior. Also known as hitting bottom. It can be relative to the person that you are dealing with for lots of different reasons. Not everyone is aware and I promise that all the yelling in the world will not make someone able to understand when that ability doesn't exist. I think it's self centered to think that because I am enlightened - that I get it - everyone else must too so they must be making a choice to piss me off, annoy me, not act right.....then I can take that one step further and hold the world accountable to MY standard of right and wrong.

I have the luxury of choice. I can wake up tomorrow and CHOOSE how I will conduct myself in public. How I will interact with people, how I will wear my hair and what color my nails will be. I will choose to walk out the door just once. But what if I wake up tomorrow and believe that if I don't walk out the door perfectly 15 times that I will die? What if I can't walk out the door perfectly? What if you think that is stupid? Is it better to scream at me that it's stupid, cause me internal panic and conflict then force me out the door anyway because YOU know and that shit ain't gonna fly with you? People can and do kill themselves to stop the torment.

What if I believe that there are people who are trying to kill me? There is no uncertainty. I know it. I hear people that I know whispering that in my ears. I can smell the fear in a room. I see smoke. It's real to people who feel it, who see it. That is their reality. Go ahead and tell them they have a choice to come out from behind the couch. That it's not true. That no one is trying to kill them - it's all make believe. Then, come back and let me know how that worked out for you. I can tell you how it ends.

Or tell someone who is really 13 years old, even though she looks much older that she needs to put down her cell phone and get back to work. Tell her 30 times. Hell, go ahead and tell her 100 times. Treat her the same as everyone else. Rules are rules. Fire her for not listening like a 25 year old should listen because YOU said so. Sorry. That doesn't work for me. She is not 25, her brain doesn't function at the same level. There are rules for our society. By our societal standards she shouldn't even have a job. She can't even chew with her mouth closed. Not because she doesn't know she should, but because her brain can't focus on chewing AND keeping her mouth closed. That isn't funny. That is her reality. I celebrate her ability to have a job at all. I focus on what she does right. I will tell her and try to guide her, but telling someone all about themselves and their shortcomings when they don't have the ability to understand - seems abusive. Who really gets something out of that?

I wouldn't give someone making a choice to do something destructive a pass in the same way. I am talking about the ability to think, understand, comprehend and possession of a critical thinking ability. Not everyone has it. It's rather easy and privileged to think everyone should.

To me it similar to thinking everyone should just speak English or just move out of the projects if they want a better life. It IS that easy right? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people just "got it" and didn't live to annoy the rest of us people with all of our smarts and reasoning?

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

[SuperFemme]

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

Julieisafemme,

What a great post. I think that the people around us have a unique position that most others do not. Especially in an online venue.

My family (i'm a mom with three, now four kids) they were kind of freaked out by the me that came home from the hospital. I can honestly say that I am a completely different person now. They had to grieve just like I did, and that is not an easy concept (grieving the living) for kids.

My father did not believe in brain injury. Until he fell in the driveway and ended up with two brain surgeries and a brain injury. (the universe is funny like that). Today he understands because it is his reality.

So my family knows me in ways that nobody else ever will, and as loved ones that passes that we give each other are always on a different level than what anyone else would do.

I know that you do have to make choices every day. So do I. I have to take meds. I have to work hard to have a "day". It is a choice.

I hate mail. I get overwhelmed and cry. I have gone months without opening my mail. I do NOT get a pass. My lights get shut off, my gas, my cable, my phone...because that is the consequence of not opening my mail.

Still, I am choosing not to do it when I don't.

Thanks for sharing. So much. :bunchflowers:

[Gemme]

I met a woman this morning who is preparing for a double lung transplant. I'd met her husband the evening before and felt comfortable enough to tease him a bit so I was joshing around with him after breakfast. I saw this very thin but seemingly well woman perusing the breakfast buffet. The only indication of her condition was the small oxygen tank and tubing she carried on her person. When I realized that she was his and he was hers, I stopped by the table and chatted them both up.

We discussed the details of her eventual surgery and how it feels to have to wait for someone else to die before you can get better and stronger, as well as the perceptions of others.

I don't have anything especially revealing to discuss about my conversation with them except that it was timely for this thread. I have, on occasion, given those with different abilities a little bit more leeway. That's not to say I coddle them or try to assert my "averageness" above them. But if I know that someone is in chronic pain the majority of the time, I'm going to filter myself differently around them if possible. I may not make as many sarcastic or snide comments as I usually do, for example.

It's the same for me as when I know one of my friends is especially cranky or feeling low and their filters are tweaked a bit differently than normal. I try to adapt to their situation if possible. Communication is a two-way street. I'm certainly no expert on it, but I try my best most of the time with mostly everyone, for I have filter-less days too.

Eh, speaking of communication...I'm not sure I'm getting across what I'd like to.

Take two!

I feel that as long as one attempts to help themself, then I am willing to take a deep breath whenever it's needed or to roll up my sleeves and help them out or whatever. If someone is going to wallow in their situation, even if it is especially horrible, I won't make that effort. At first, I'd give them time to come to grips with what life has dealt them, but if they continue months and months on end with the pity party, I'm not going to stick around and try to help them. I won't waste my time or theirs if they are not open to anything but 'poor them'. I don't have that kindness sensor in me. My tolerance level for those who don't do the work for themselves is minimal at best.

I have a coworker who used to be homeless with her daughter. They lived in their van until they both got a job at my workplace. After a while, they found a small place. I offered my assistance with taking my coworker to Seattle to get new glasses. Another coworker offered the same deal. Our coworker is pretty much legally blind and her not being able to read some of our documents affects her job performance. She has refused both of us. I gave her the info so she could go on her own time. She has not. She and her daughter were struggling with food, so I brought some boxes of food in for them for Christmas and gave them the info to our local food bank, which is absolutely amazing. They have not gone once. They choose to spend their money on other things.

Am I passing judgement on them? You bet your ass I am. I feel as if I've done more for them than they have for themselves and that frustrates me beyond belief. But if I were to see someone who is doing somiething for their own self, whether they are abled in different or similar ways is irrelevant to me, but if I see that, then I will give them a bit more of 'me' than I do those who passively sit back and expect the world to adjust to them.

[AtLast]

I don't want a pass, however I do want people to ask questions for clarification. My experience has been that people make assumptions, over and over, and they are wrong.


A common experience that could be avoided and just with a question or two without presumption. Feels like common courtesy and respect for another person and wanting to communicate- not any kind of pass.


I don't think most people should have a pass, however there are those whom I believe should. When a brain injury occurs, the functions of the neurons, nerve tracts, or sections of the brain can be effected. If the neurons and nerve tracts are effected, they can be unable or have difficulty carrying messages that tell the brain what to do. This can result in Thinking Changes, Physical Changes, and Personality and Behavioral Changes. These changes can be temporary or permanent. They may cause impairment or complete inability to perform a function. One of these impairments, which may occur concerns social competence, it is one of the most complex tasks our brain encounters, and for some it doesn't happen. If someone lacks skill in this area, it is unreasonable to demand that it occur. Anger and punishment only adds to their frustration, and they only know that they did something wrong, but are left without a clue as to how to fix it. A person can read, write, take care of themselves and not be able to grasp the nuances that many take for granted. Their style of communication may seem inappropriate, when they are angry, scared or excited. I think this kind of person should get a pass.



I have seen that look on my nephew's face so often- knowing he has made some kind of social faux pas just by how others are reacting to him, but not knowing how to deal with it. He feels very deeply about the possibility of hurting someone and totally frustrated with why he cannot always connect the dots like other people (social nuances and cues). He is very bright. So often, it is presumed that he doesn't care about how he might have hurt someone else.

Now he does a lot better because of treatment and organizations for people with Asperger’s and his own family coming out of denial about Asperger’s and getting help as well. For a long time, his Mom could not face it because of his birth defects and all of the physical limitations and medical procedures he had to deal with along with physical deformity. I think the diagnosis also just got lost within this tangled web, too. We all were damn protective of him.

He feels much more cared about when people just ask him about what he said because it gives him an opportunity to not only clarify, but deal with the social circumstances that have kept him back for so long. He feels like he is being treated like normal (he does use this term) people in many ways! Like he is not getting a pass, but some respect and the chance to work through things with others. Just regular human interaction that many of us take for granted.

[SuperFemme]

I have seen that look on my nephew's face so often- knowing he has made some kind of social faux pas just by how others are reacting to him, but not knowing how to deal with it. He feels very deeply about the possibility of hurting someone and totally frustrated with why he cannot always connect the dots like other people (social nuances and cues). He is very bright. So often, it is presumed that he doesn't care about how he might have hurt someone else.

Now he does a lot better because of treatment and organizations for people with Asperger’s and his own family coming out of denial about Asperger’s and getting help as well. For a long time, his Mom could not face it because of his birth defects and all of the physical limitations and medical procedures he had to deal with along with physical deformity. I think the diagnosis also just got lost within this tangled web, too. We all were damn protective of him.

He feels much more cared about when people just ask him about what he said because it gives him an opportunity to not only clarify, but deal with the social circumstances that have kept him back for so long. He feels like he is being treated like normal (he does use this term) people in many ways! Like he is not getting a pass, but some respect and the chance to work through things with others. Just regular human interaction that many of us take for granted.

i agree.

he is not getting a pass.

[adorable]

SuperFemme thank you so much for starting this thread! It is an excellent conversation.

Adorable I wanted to speak to the things I bolded above. I am mentally ill. My partner does not like it when I label myself such. I find it empowering and a way to destigmatize it for me. I have OCD. I've had it since I was a kid. I had no clue what was wrong with me. I just thought I was bad. I was very good at white knuckling my way through life but I still had problems coping and navigating the world. I did hit a bottom and because of the nature of my illness I was able to have the self-awareness to change. I had to make a choice and I did. It was very hard.

Being mentally ill can create a whole host of coping mechanisms or strategies to navigate the world. These are separate from the disease. They do not go away when you take medication or get therapy! I have had to relearn so many things. Every day I get better at things.

It has been an adjustment for my family and friends as well. They have a much better understanding of where I was and what I was doing all those years. There were times in my life where I did not have clarity into my behavior and was not capable of making choices.

I consider myself in recovery from a chronic condition. I do have to make the choice every day to take my meds and work my therapy. I could choose to do neither.

I don't know that my family or friends give me a pass per se. I think they do understand so much better that there are some things that I can't do or do very well. I really appreciate their understanding and accomodation of those things. But I still have to do the work.

So for myself I would have to say strongly and emphatically that there is a choice with mental illness.

I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

[Apocalipstic]

Snow, in all respect and friendship...I do think that of someone crosses our boundaries 10000 times on this website (or anywhere) please put them on ignore and/or avoid them, walk away. The person who crosses your boundaries may bring joy and light to other people even though you might have a bad history with them. Some personalities just clash. It is unavoidable. Again, nothing against you or anyone.

There are some good , well meaning people who make really bad social errors. I do sometimes. You have witnessed some of them. Somehow people mostly seem to forgive me thank goodness. :)

It is personally devastating when I make these errors. I think it does anyone who makes these types of errors we work so had to avoid. Sometimes we try so hard, it makes the errors worse.

Adele, I have and will continue to treat you as an equal, there is no question for me on that subject and never has been. I don't pity you, you don't pity me. :) I think this is a great thread. (f)

On the subject of rules, we have them and they should be followed. Can we have empathy for people and explain over and over the rules? Yes! Which is why I am glad the Admins and Mods go with a taking time off thing, rather than an outright ban most of the time.

So rules yes, ignore button yes, empathy yes.

[Apocalipstic]

I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

Yes yes yes!

Intent matters!

PS, well it matters to me, there are schools of thought where only results matter....philosophy, morals and ethics discussion....

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

[Apocalipstic]

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

There are so many things in life we should not have to deal with, yet we do. I wish we did not have to.

No, you should not have to ever deal with anyone crossing your boundaries, and no you should not have to put anyone on ignore, but think of the blissful peace never having to think of that person ever again. Poof, they can dissapear to you.

I agree that no one's place should be above anyone else's and I am sad that you think that is what I am suggesting.

I also agree that rules are rules, however, I do think intent matters and compassion matters and I know that some people will not get along and it is best if they do not interact. NT or not. Actually everyone is somewhere on the neurological spectrum, I am not assuming anything about where you are ...but if someone causes this much distress it really helps peace of mind to ignore them. I have had to make that very difficult decision for myself and its been good for me.

Please know that I am saying this from my heart. It is very difficult for me to have this discussion and I totaly understand why you feel like you do and not saying you don't deserve to feel that way.

[violaine]

apocalipstic, social blunders/awkwardness/abruptness is what i am !

when i signed up here, it was as an 'individual' not 'we/us/everyone'.

i struggle with being lumped into a category, as someone who made an assumption. if i dislike assumptions made about me, i'm sure going to try my hardest not to make them about others.

majority = best part. all = the entire.

[Spirit Dancer]

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

Lady Snow,
I'm quoting you so that I can reference this comment and add to it
I totally understand where you are coming from. For for months I failed to put someone on ignore who had crosed many boundaries with me, In my world we keep our enemies close so to speak, I tried to handle it on my own and then with the aid of a friend, this person continued to cross boundaries and passes were given to this NT person. The bottom line is I too don't use the ignore feature for the simple reason I want to know when there is an issue with said person. Not only until it crossed over to my r/t life and a threat was made did it stop. So clearly how far can one be pushed before enough is enough.

[Spirit Dancer]

I've read this entire thread and some things are clear, others are not.
Some of you may or may not know my child is an aspie.
In our home she is treated no different than any other child, I do not let her stand on the premise that since she is anspi or has a cognitive issues she will or cannot make it in the real world.
She's encouraged to be all she can be, she isn't issued passes for thinking differently. We live in a real world with real issues, and we are teaching her to adapt to such circumstances, is it different and challenging yes it is. Are we going to tell her to chump out hell no, the fact is we can learn and grow from differences or walk away. We want her to learn the NT world, and live to the best or her ability, are we afraid she won't be able to conform, yes. But at least we are giving her the advantage of refoucusing and learning outside her box, after all each disability does just that.

[christie]

Wow since everyone keeps making this about *ME* and outlining this about *ME* I am going to speak for *ME*. I should not have to put anyone on ignore when they keep being insistent, rude, sexist, aggressive with me. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone here over and over and I shouldn't have to tell them let's just be friends. I don't need those kinds of friends. I like to have friends around who are going to have respect for me, and my boundaries. I shouldn't have to explain over and over in a pm when I am uncomfortable, I shouldn't have to go to an Admin to get this person to stop, no should be enough. I shouldn't have to have expectations put on me to have more empathy. I think I had a hella lot of empathy and handled it pretty fucking good even when said person went after someone I love.

I don't understand why a DA's place in this community is above mine, how unsafe as a woman to have to see that my experience is being dismissed because everyone assumes I am NT. Read the TOS, simple as that if you can't abide by them that is not on ME.

Jesus Christ let's hope this does not ever become a r/t situation because what then you gonna excuse that behavior too and wave the victim away?

Unbelievable

Snow -

I'm not sure that my perception is that this thread is about you. I think you opened the door for direct comments to you when you posed the question of "what do you do?"

If no one responded to your question, I am sure that you would also feel dismissed. I know I would.

I am interested to know, what do you think we should do in the instance you posed?

It feels as if when your question was responded to, you negated the ignore suggestion (as is your right to do so) and didn't respond to my suggestion of a buddy/mentoring system at all.

This feels, to me, like with a lot of the heavier issues, its easier for us to focus on the problem rather than look for solutions. That statement is not directed soley at you, but a general observation from my "me" place. I really hope you don't choose to hone in on this statement and negate the rest of my post.

I think that the allowances we make for DA's can also be viewed as we do the "isms". To say to a DA person, "Here is the TOS, its up to you to abide by the rules" is fair. Its treating everyone equally. The sticky part, for me, is when we (as community members) say to a DA person, "You fucked up and didn't follow the rules and its up to you to do the work to fucking figure it out"

(which, please don't anyone assume is what I believe happens since we know that the mods and administration spend hours "behind the scenes" in trying to work through issues).

The sticky part? We want to call it out and treat the DA as an equal yet expect the moderators and admin to assist the person in doing the work. I think just as with whites and privilege, the NT's, as the majority, have to be willing to assist in that process.

When we call out white privilege - we expect the offender to do the work. Hopefully, they have the capacity and resources to do the work.

I believe, based on my experiences, that DA's who continue to make social blunders, cross boundaries, break the rules, etc don't have the social skills/cognitive function/self monitoring/filters in place to do the work without assistance from the NT majority.

This is not assuming that you are an NT.

This is not me saying that a DA person is more valued in this community, at least in my perception, than any one else.

This is me saying that I am hopeful that when you feel you have exhausted your patience and empathy, that there is a system in place to step in.

I believe that a person has to have the skills/cognitive processes or the resources available to overcome some of the DA issues.

What I really don't want to happen is the lack of skills/processes not being taken into account and addressed and "just follow the rules and subsequent consequences" and that DA person feeling discarded and unvalued.

I just don't want us to throw anyone, DA, nonDA, NT, non NT, away just as I don't want that person to feel thrown away.

I really hope that I made sense in this post. I had to leave it and come back several times (stupid work) and I am not sure that I was as cohesive as I would have liked.

I also really hope that you will read my intent as one of support and community and not anything else.

[julieisafemme]

Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.

You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.

I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.

As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.

Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.


I hear what you are saying and I personally think that it's great that you have both the tools and capacity to do this. My point is, that not everyone does. That is true in all facets of our lives and not just limited to special needs, brain injuries, disorders or mental illness. If someone is saying something to me - how I take it matters. If I operate under the assumption that people are all in fact like me, thinking like me, seeing things the way that I do - that doesn't always work. I believe that it is my responsibility to understand THAT. It is my responsibilty as being someone who walks around "getting it" to have compassion for those who don't have the same tools, level of comprehension, quick thinking or capacity for higher levels of understanding.

Capacity matters. Intent matters.

If a drunk driver kills someone - that driver made a choice to get behind the wheel drunk.

If someone has a heart attack and kills someone while they are driving - that person didn't make a choice.

One will go to jail. One will not.

In both cases the outcome of an innocent person being harmed was the same. A pass is issued for the heart attack.

It doesn't make what happened any less tragic, but in one case you can see where it wasn't that persons fault. They didn't have control over having a heart attack when they did.

I see things very much that way. If I said to you, "I want to be your girlfriend." And based on the totality of my posts you know that I am normally articulate, well spoken and seem pretty smart. Your response to me would be probably "Sorry, I am not interested."

If I sent you a pm back that says "why?" that is weird. Because the information you have about me is that I should have the capcity to have this conversation like an adult.

Your next question might be "Are you drunk or something?"
My response might be, "No. I like you and I think you would like me if you gave me a chance."

Um, yeah, at this point it's feeling all Mr. Yuck. I am someone who should GET it. This conversation shouldn't be happening. It's situationally and socially inappropriate.

So now you get mad, assuming that at this point, I ain't getting it. "Leave me the fuck alone!"

"But I just wanted to be your friend why are you being a bitch?"

Now. Let's say that from the totality of my posts you can tell that I struggle with formulating thoughts and there is clearly something "off." I say what I tend to think in very simple terms and when asked for clarification from other people, generally say the same thing over again BECAUSE in my head it's making sense the way I am saying it. I rarely understand why people get upset with my posts because the posts make sense to me. I am participating like everyone else. The part of YOU that has the capacity to see this is now going to respond to that first pm. "I want to be your girlfriend."

Strange? Yes. As strange as if I, adorable, in all my thinking capacity and excellent command of communication had sent it? No. In one case no pass is given because all the information you have doesn't warrant one. The benefit of the doubt is thrown out there that I might be drunk - that is something that might get loose lips a temporary pass. If you are dealing with the second me in the example. How you read that pm is likely to be different IF you have read my other posts and know the way I communicate is convoluted, disorganized and sometimes socially inappropriate. Understanding my limitations with regards to capacity is important. Because HOW the rest of the interaction is going to go is often controlled by the person with the higher capacity. If the person being approached reads the person as just stupid and with sinister motives - then the responses are going to be far different.

Rather then getting angry or hostile at what might be a considered socially inappropriate proposition - the conversation might go more like this.

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


The assumption that we all walk around with the same capacity is simply not true.

[BullDog]

SuperFemme, this is an amazing thread. I am learning a lot. Thank you.

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it is something that is bothering me. I personally have never used the ignore button. I understand the usefulness of it and perhaps there are times I should have used it, but if I feel someone is crossing my boundaries, being hostile or aggressive to me, I want to know where they are and what they are saying- especially if they are male.

Most women of color I have dated or are friends with will never sit with their back to the door. Could be many white women feel this way too, but I have had this explained to me by a woman I was dating so I would understand better when we went somewhere where she would be more comfortable sitting. She explain a lot of other things to me and was a lot more conscious of personal safety and being out in public than I am. I think that is because of my white privilege.

I can understand why a woman of color would not want to put a male (whether they were differently abled or not) on ignore if he was not respecting her boundaries. I know the internet is not the same as being in physical proximity with someone, but we learn how to set and negotiate our boundaries out in the real world. I am not making any assumptions about Snow's reasons or speaking for her, but I did feel the need to say something. I think as a white person it is easier for me to move through this world and to ignore what I don't like than it would be for a person of color. I think that is white privilege.

So to try to tie this in to the thread, being differently abled or not is also going to of course intersect with many other factors to keep in mind in terms of how we interact with each other and interpret each others words.

[Daywalker]

I wanna share this video with everyone:

jYKaoq509-U

What I see is someone who joined the worlds biggest talent competition,
and is not looking to get a 'pass' because of living a life with Epilepsy;
rather someone who is introducing inspiration, and encouragement for
all differently abled folks to look inside themselves for the
light that makes them shine and shine that light
upon all that surrounds them.

:goodscore:

I have some stuff to add, and will be back later for that.

:daywalker:

[christie]

I wanna share this video with everyone:

jYKaoq509-U

What I see is someone who joined the worlds biggest talent competition,
and is not looking to get a 'pass' because of living a life with Epilepsy;
rather someone who is introducing inspiration, and encouragement for
all differently abled folks to look inside themselves for the
light that makes them shine and shine that light
upon all that surrounds them.

:goodscore:

I have some stuff to add, and will be back later for that.

:daywalker:


Thanks, Daywalker, for posting this. I also posted it on the neurodiversity thread and have slammed my coworkers and friends with emails with a link to it. This young man and the grace he exhibits not just in his words but also in this really amazing ability (I'd never even heard of indoor kite flying!).

[adorable]

Adorable you made a blanket statement that people with mental illness do not have a choice. In my experience that is simply not true. You also likened Plato's insistence on choice as privileged. For myself your characterizing people with mental illness as unable to make choices was privileged. You base your definition of choice, rational thought, and self-awareness on the "norm" of those who are not differently abled. This ignores the fact that DA people vary greatly in their abilites and that within their own range of experience they are able to make choices, have rational thoughts and be self-aware.

You went on to use two examples of how people with mental illness do not have a choice. One was an anxiety disorder example like OCD and the other seemed to be more of a thought disorder example. I am not sure what your background is. I am not sure where you get these examples. I am not sure if you are DA. I am not making any assumptions about that.

I am DA. I am letting you know that it is important to me to give another persepctive on the statement that mentally ill people do not have a choice.

As far as the whole example you made at the end I am not sure what to say. I very much dislike hypotheticals in discussions like these. I have a very hard time grasping them. In the situation you outlined I would politely say no thank you and put you on ignore. No pass. What your intent was or what your capactiy is would not be a part of my thought process.

Oh! Edited to add that if anyone is interested in an excellent book on mental illness and choice please read The Center Cannot Hold by Elyn R. Saks. This is the best book I have ever read in describing mental illness and what is possible within one person to adapt and cope with it. I cannot recommend it highly enough!

Oh! One more thing. The assumption that we walk around with the same capacity is not true. I agree there. That is not what I am saying or implying. All I am saying is that we all walk around with capacity! Everyone has the capacity to do and be things. Everyone.

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all which is why I used the word "some" a lot. Not all. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that "some" for me matters. If what is presenting to you LOOKS a certain age and appear that they SHOULD be able to understand - that to me is different then actually being either.

Capacity to understand is not a given. Taking responsibilty for me, must include the understanding of what taking responsibilty means. Just because we can have these complex thoughtful discussions doesn't mean that everyone has capacity. So to me, the answer isn't well I will just ignore them then. I am DA at different times based on a medical condition that I have. I certianly have DA peeps in my family all to varying degrees.

I have no patience. None. I would make the worst nurse or teacher in the world. I don't love people, as in the collective lets hold hands around a campfire and sing, type love for all.

But when it comes to this issue, I think that we as a society are quick to label people and toss them if they don't fit nicely. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone has the capacity to get it. Or even knows there is an "it" to get. Yet, we can all scream at them and hold them to a standard the we ourselves are able to maintain. We can do this because WE get it. When we hold people to OUR standard of thinking and capacity and place those expectations on other people - that is priviledged. I am priviledged if I do that to someone who has trouble walking and I want them to hurry up and get out of my way. I can walk. That person should just move faster. If they can't move faster oh well, I guess I could knock them out of the way because they do have legs - I can see them they must be chosing not to use them the same way I use mine.

It is not black and white. Our laws are designed to keep that in mind. Intent, understanding, capacity, intelligence are all factors in determining motive. We all do it. HOW we do it and how we read things matters.

I hear you saying that you want people to know that mentally ill people have capacity. I get that. I have most definately met people that do. I have also met people who do not. I apologize if it felt like I was catagorizing all people with mental illness as not having capacity or choice.

[julieisafemme]

I think we are agreeing! At least that is how I am reading it. I think I am uncomfortable with the concept of capacity or ability. Because there are capacities within capacities within capacities! Often a capacity to understand also has to do with education and familiarity with the subject matter and ways of discourse.

Just an FYI this is what you wrote "With mental illness there is no choice to be made." That is what I was directly responding to.

Thank you for the conversation!

I was not trying to make a blanket statement about all which is why I used the word "some" a lot. Not all. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But that "some" for me matters. If what is presenting to you LOOKS a certain age and appear that they SHOULD be able to understand - that to me is different then actually being either.

Capacity to understand is not a given. Taking responsibilty for me, must include the understanding of what taking responsibilty means. Just because we can have these complex thoughtful discussions doesn't mean that everyone has capacity. So to me, the answer isn't well I will just ignore them then. I am DA at different times based on a medical condition that I have. I certianly have DA peeps in my family all to varying degrees.

I have no patience. None. I would make the worst nurse or teacher in the world. I don't love people, as in the collective lets hold hands around a campfire and sing, type love for all.

But when it comes to this issue, I think that we as a society are quick to label people and toss them if they don't fit nicely. Not everyone gets it. Not everyone has the capacity to get it. Or even knows there is an "it" to get. Yet, we can all scream at them and hold them to a standard the we ourselves are able to maintain. We can do this because WE get it. When we hold people to OUR standard of thinking and capacity and place those expectations on other people - that is priviledged. I am priviledged if I do that to someone who has trouble walking and I want them to hurry up and get out of my way. I can walk. That person should just move faster. If they can't move faster oh well, I guess I could knock them out of the way because they do have legs - I can see them they must be chosing not to use them the same way I use mine.

It is not black and white. Our laws are designed to keep that in mind. Intent, understanding, capacity, intelligence are all factors in determining motive. We all do it. HOW we do it and how we read things matters.

I hear you saying that you want people to know that mentally ill people have capacity. I get that. I have most definately met people that do. I have also met people who do not. I apologize if it felt like I was catagorizing all people with mental illness as not having capacity or choice.

[Apocalipstic]

SuperFemme, this is an amazing thread. I am learning a lot. Thank you.

I hope this is not too much of a derail, but it is something that is bothering me. I personally have never used the ignore button. I understand the usefulness of it and perhaps there are times I should have used it, but if I feel someone is crossing my boundaries, being hostile or aggressive to me, I want to know where they are and what they are saying- especially if they are male.

Most women of color I have dated or are friends with will never sit with their back to the door. Could be many white women feel this way too, but I have had this explained to me by a woman I was dating so I would understand better when we went somewhere where she would be more comfortable sitting. She explain a lot of other things to me and was a lot more conscious of personal safety and being out in public than I am. I think that is because of my white privilege.

I can understand why a woman of color would not want to put a male (whether they were differently abled or not) on ignore if he was not respecting her boundaries. I know the internet is not the same as being in physical proximity with someone, but we learn how to set and negotiate our boundaries out in the real world. I am not making any assumptions about Snow's reasons or speaking for her, but I did feel the need to say something. I think as a white person it is easier for me to move through this world and to ignore what I don't like than it would be for a person of color. I think that is white privilege.

So to try to tie this in to the thread, being differently abled or not is also going to of course intersect with many other factors to keep in mind in terms of how we interact with each other and interpret each others words.


Really great points BullDog and Christie!

BD, Maybe it is white privilege that I can ignore someone who makes me feel unsafe? I am actually just learning how to to do this with help from my therapist and it is proving very beneficial to *me*.

I had not thought of this from a white privileged angle. While I usually try to stop white privileged behaviors, walking away from people I do not think respect me is something I have worked very hard to be able to do, and I think it a beneficial strategy for anyone. Life changing even. It really helps with my stress level.

Christie, great answer also. It would be great to see some homework done on how to communicate with people on the spectrum so that things do not escalate to this point, but I don't expect anyone to. Since being DA applies to *me* I don't feel I can directly ask that of anyone.

Are issues of race more important than issues of disability? Which group has suffered more in the past and deserves to be dealt with through a filter of why things are like they are? You tell me.

I think we are all worthy of compassion.

Every one of us.

Even the people we can't deal with. (really hard one for me).

[adorable]

Really great points BullDog and Christie!

BD, Maybe it is white privilege that I can ignore someone who makes me feel unsafe? I am actually just learning how to to do this with help from my therapist and it is proving very beneficial to *me*.

I had not thought of this from a white privileged angle. While I usually try to stop white privileged behaviors, walking away from people I do not think respect me is something I have worked very hard to be able to do, and I think it a beneficial strategy for anyone. Life changing even. It really helps with my stress level.

Christie, great answer also. It would be great to see some homework done on how to communicate with people on the spectrum so that things do not escalate to this point, but I don't expect anyone to. Since being DA applies to *me* I don't feel I can directly ask that of anyone.

Are issues of race more important than issues of disability? Which group has suffered more in the past and deserves to be dealt with through a filter of why things are like they are? You tell me.

I think we are all worthy of compassion.

Every one of us.

Even the people we can't deal with. (really hard one for me).



I want to make something very clear here.

Snow is right.

That doesn't contradict anything I have said. BECAUSE based on the information that we have at any given time (regardless of the color of our skin btw) we make choices to protect ourselves and our family. Period.

I think there is more information and to revisit something with a different view isn't necessarily a bad thing. She may or may not agree with that. But I know that when I have more information it might change how I view a situation. It might change the level of danger that I feel. It could also make it worse for her personally. Either way, she isn't wrong. It really isn't even a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of safety.

I also think that as women, we aren't imagining that there are people out to get us. There are. It's real. People die from online interactions. There are a couple people on this site that I keep a safe distance from based on what I have seen in posting and from experiences that have been relayed by people who know them in real time.


Having a buddy system is something that I do here with one member. I know other people try to do that too them. I don't always have the patience. Some people have jumbled thoughts and type it out because it's what they're thinking. In their mind they make sense because they are thinking it. Then they are misread. So in an effort to clarify, because now people are jumping on them for posting that, they keep saying the same thing. As a buddy, I will pm the person and say people are not understanding your post. They will say, "but what I meant was" and then say the same thing to me as they did in the post and by now 15 times over in the thread.

30 pm's later all I can do is say, "I know what you meant. It's going to be ok."
Because by then, they are so upset and frustrated that no one likes them because of their post and no one understands them even though what they meant was (insert what they orginally said here which made no real sense to begin with) - that trying to get back to the original issue which was the first post where they weren't clear is the least of it.

So again, for me it comes back to capacity. In order for even a buddy system to effectively work someone has to fully understand that just because they are thinking it, doesn't mean it makes sense. And that to keep trying to say it over and over doesn't make any MORE sense.

[weatherboi]

hi everybody!!! :)

from my own personal experience, i was partnered with a person that is DA/on the spectrum. i really do understand the need for NT's to learn a better way to communicate and hear when interacting with Differently-Abled people and people on the Spectrum. i gave passes till it became detrimental to me in an attempt to give this persons intent the benefit of the doubt. sometimes it just is what it is and the person is abusive and cant help it. happiness is something everybody deserves but not at another persons expense.

i have volunteered for some years now at a facility that educates Differently- Abled folks. Not one time in all my training classes were we ever taught to give a person a pass within the schools community for behavior that was deemd as inappropriate or punishable. No matter what level of comprehension skills are present.

It is enabling to have this kind of conversation with someone when it is not true. It invites a relationship that may not be or is not welcome. So why do this???

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


so if a person invades my space and i handle it once, twice, even three times with compassion and they continue to escalate to angry behavior then at what point will my accepting and compassionate behavior come back to be used against me?? like when people accuse other people(potential victims)of asking for it.


so if i have a person on ignore and that person comes in here and posts something negative or threatening about me and a person that loves me or maybe people (more than one) that love me report this person does this mean they still get a pass?? i don't feel that is very effective or fair to the community and its unity and safety as a whole.

so lets say this happens to me with more than one person here...let's say maybe two or three people read that it is ok to behave this way?? what then??? do we give them all passes??

so let's say i decide to go to the butch/femme reunion and these same people that have invaded my space in some form or fashion decide they are gonna go?? what then??? i have to go under the guise that if one of them crosses boundaries in my real time space that again they get a pass???

how do we decide a persons intent??? behavior is one way i judge intent. i read words online and i read behavior in real time. it is for me to decide not my community. i will not apologize for being cautious of my personal safety because it has been invaded on a level that allows me the reason to keep many at arms length.

i have a person in my life (family friend i have known for years)that has to carry around a permit to carry a gun everywhere she goes because of a person who had a hard time understanding no. he was Differently-Abled. and couldn't understand why she didn't reciprocate feelings. i think they called this person delusional. this persons intent was never love or connection although said it was.

social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.

Grant

[Apocalipstic]

I want to make something very clear here.

Snow is right.

That doesn't contradict anything I have said. BECAUSE based on the information that we have at any given time (regardless of the color of our skin btw) we make choices to protect ourselves and our family. Period.

I think there is more information and to revisit something with a different view isn't necessarily a bad thing. She may or may not agree with that. But I know that when I have more information it might change how I view a situation. It might change the level of danger that I feel. It could also make it worse for her personally. Either way, she isn't wrong. It really isn't even a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of safety.

I also think that as women, we aren't imagining that there are people out to get us. There are. It's real. People die from online interactions. There are a couple people on this site that I keep a safe distance from based on what I have seen in posting and from experiences that have been relayed by people who know them in real time.


Having a buddy system is something that I do here with one member. I know other people try to do that too them. I don't always have the patience. Some people have jumbled thoughts and type it out because it's what they're thinking. In their mind they make sense because they are thinking it. Then they are misread. So in an effort to clarify, because now people are jumping on them for posting that, they keep saying the same thing. As a buddy, I will pm the person and say people are not understanding your post. They will say, "but what I meant was" and then say the same thing to me as they did in the post and by now 15 times over in the thread.

30 pm's later all I can do is say, "I know what you meant. It's going to be ok."
Because by then, they are so upset and frustrated that no one likes them because of their post and no one understands them even though what they meant was (insert what they orginally said here which made no real sense to begin with) - that trying to get back to the original issue which was the first post where they weren't clear is the least of it.

So again, for me it comes back to capacity. In order for even a buddy system to effectively work someone has to fully understand that just because they are thinking it, doesn't mean it makes sense. And that to keep trying to say it over and over doesn't make any MORE sense.

Snow has said many things, exactly what part are you talking about?

If someone here is threatening her or her family in real time family I am 100% in accordance that they should be kicked off the website. Hell, show me where they are and I personally will call the police and/or run over them in my car. Period.

If I appear to be saying something else, my apologies!!! I do not think anyone should put themselves in danger. I thought we were discussing maybe spending a little extra time learning about how people who are differently able communicate or avoiding people who stress us out. I am NOT saying she should place herself or her children in danger. Please!

What I am saying is that if someone with a disability bugs you, you can press the ignore button or try to understand their way of communication instead of discounting them as human.

I agree with her that rules are rules and should be followed. And if she is in danger I stand beside her in friendship to help protect her and her family.

I thought we were arguing approach. Tough Love vs. extra leeway, so I am completely lost now.

[Apocalipstic]

hi everybody!!! :)


do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.
Grant

Agreed 100%

[weatherboi]

tough love vs. extra leeway???

it is all relative to the situation. i read things wrong all the time. i have terrible dyslexia. honest intent. we help and treat each other accordingly. some people manipulate and take advantage of extra leeway and cry that they can't handle tough love. so what then?? let them continue to cross boundaries and placate the behavior?? i am not in support of banning people who need this community. i am however weary of people who continue to cross boundaries all over the place. whatever the reason.

[Apocalipstic]

tough love vs. extra leeway???

it is all relative to the situation. i read things wrong all the time. i have terrible dyslexia. honest intent. we help and treat each other accordingly. some people manipulate and take advantage of extra leeway and cry that they can't handle tough love. so what then?? let them continue to cross boundaries and placate the behavior?? i am not in support of banning people who need this community. i am however weary of people who continue to cross boundaries all over the place. whatever the reason.

I really think some people don't have the emotional and mental maturity to not cross boundaries no matter how many times they are told.

I think some of these same people do need our community.

I think we have decide what kind of website we are going to be. Are we going to make allowances for those people who ON LINE cross our boundaries? Are we going to try and learn to communicate with them, or choose to ignore them? Or do we need to just have a zero tolerance policy?

To be clear, I am not speaking of anyone who poses a physical threat to anyone or their family. Actual proven physical threat, ZERO tolerance!!!

[violaine]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;152759]hi everybody!!! :)


social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??



an address long ago, i worked where a DD woman lived, and she screamed a lot. it was up to me whenever there, to protect my ears and my own personal space boundaries whenever possible, because i had the awareness/coping skills in place to do so - she did not, and would continue, because she was DD.

i also feel this way about other relationships [friendships/work/family/partners] if the person has an addiction, for example, and certain unsavoury behaviours are not acceptable to me from people/person, it's up to me to leave.

i think that i do understand what you mean, however- about your question. why should you be the one to navigate round the offending person? in my case, it took a good while to figure it out for myself because [for me] it is less about right or wrong, and hugely about my own sense of preservation.

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.

Grant

i agree 100% !

[amiyesiam]

I am by no means an expert. I have worked with MH, MR, and the differently abled for 15 years. Some things I have learned.

1. It doesn't matter if one has a mental health issue, tramatic brain injury, or if one is developmentally delayed. Nor does your race, religion, sexual orientation, socio-ecomonic level, or education level matter in this discussion.

2. Some people respect boundries and others do not. Some people are also, honest, caring, sharing, peaceful people and others are not.

3. One's backround may make it harder or easier for you to adjust and fit in in the world. And yes some have it much harder than others. And if we are completely honest, no matter how able or differently abled one is, how one looks and is perceived also matters, sometimes a lot.

4. I have seen able people refuse to respect boundaries and differently abled people who completely respect boundaries. And I have seen many times when able people cross differently abled people boundaries because they are being "helpful".

5. I have also seen cases where people use their disability as an excuse. And I have seen some able people come up with mind boggling excuses for their behavior. Like all people, we learn who we have to respect and who we don't have to respect.

6. It really comes down to taking situations on a case by case basis. In reality what we are really trying to address is those situations where someone does not get the hint, misses the social cues, doesn't take no for an answer, has it stuck in their head that they are right and they want what they want. Lucky for us these people are both able and differently abled.

7. So when an able person behaves badly the TOS kicks in. Easy as pie.

8. So I have to say, if you are differently abled the TOS kicks in. Maybe not so easy, maybe it sounds harsh, but I have seen to many times in real life when differently abled people respect my boundaries but not others boundaries. I set the rules with them from the first meeting. If you are able to use a computer, can post competent posts, engage different people and be liked by people, then you most certainly can understand being told no by someone. And if this has gone on long enough that admin and mods become involved, then you have probably been told no enough times.

9. There are some that have trouble with impulse control (another thing I have seen in all types of people) so they react before they think. I get this and have seen it many times in my life. But on the computer you have to type out your impulsive thoughts and hit submit reply. I have seen some really well thought out impulsive statements. Reality, the only way to learn control is to have consequences to ones actions. Ya know like in real life, when you act impulsively and bad can things happen.

10. Compassion is nice and it is doable to set boundaries politely but firmly. One doesn't have to belittle or call names. This is doable for the first few times, but honestly, I function on a 3x and you are out. Funny thing though, because I do set my boundaries so clearly and from the beginning (nor do I knowingly ever cross someone else's boundaries) with everyone (regardless of ability), I rarely have problems with anyone. It is not helping anyone when you give them a free pass, make excuses for them, say they can't help it, etc. Cause sooner or later they are gonna have to face someone who doesn't do that.

[Gayla]

I'm so conflicted about this that I haven't even really been able to form cohesive thoughts. There's been really good conversations here and, while I appreciate all of them, some have just left me more conflicted. :)

Just in regards to here, on the Planet, on a theoretical level, I say no passes, it's all about personal responsibility and there have to be lines and consequences for crossing those. Then when I stop and think of the reality of it all, I know that's not always reasonable. There are some people who don't understand boundaries and who truly don't possess the impulse control needed when it comes to not crossing them. Should we punish someone who truly isn't capable?

Personally, when it's someone harassing a friend of mine, yes, drop the banhammer! When it's someone I know and care about, a little more leeway would be good. :)

I really don't think there can be a blanket response that will work in all situations. The fact that the admins and mods have stated that these types of things are handled on a case by case basis, combined with the respect that I have for that team, leads me to believe that these situations will be handled appropriately and with respect for all involved, even if we don't see it.

[amiyesiam]

[QUOTE=violaine;152818][QUOTE=weatherboi;152759]hi everybody!!! :)


social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??



an address long ago, i worked where a DD woman lived, and she screamed a lot. it was up to me whenever there, to protect my ears and my own personal space boundaries whenever possible, because i had the awareness/coping skills in place to do so - she did not, and would continue, because she was DD.

I want to respond to this. In PA, when we are hired to work with the differently abled, we basically have no rights. We are in their work place, their homes, etc. It is presumed that those hired to work have better skills than those they work with (they don't always) Within each of our homes especially, we have the right to do as we please, so do they. We can not "TELL" them to do anything. We can ask, suggest, explain why it would be best to do something, we can not make them, shame them, embarress them, etc.

This is an on line web site. This is not the same as being at home. Everyones rights are equal here. and honestly no one has the right to be here. It is a privately owned site. There is a tos.

your DD lady has the right to behave as she wishes. If you tried to take her to a expensive event that cost lots of $$$, she would be asked to leave if she screamed. Her right to scream ends where everyone else who paid $$$ for an event begins. And honestly they didn't pay to listen to her. Honestly even a NT person would be asked to leave if they behaved badly.


i also feel this way about other relationships [friendships/work/family/partners] if the person has an addiction, for example, and certain unsavoury behaviours are not acceptable to me from people/person, it's up to me to leave.

i think that i do understand what you mean, however- about your question. why should you be the one to navigate round the offending person? in my case, it took a good while to figure it out for myself because [for me] it is less about right or wrong, and hugely about my own sense of preservation.

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.

Grant

i agree 100% !

[weatherboi]

[QUOTE=violaine;152818]



an address long ago, i worked where a DD woman lived, and she screamed a lot. it was up to me whenever there, to protect my ears and my own personal space boundaries whenever possible, because i had the awareness/coping skills in place to do so - she did not, and would continue, because she was DD.
what if her intent was to scream and upset you on purpose would you have handled it the same?? since intent seems to be an important topic in this discussion.

i ahis way about other relationships [friendships/work/family/partners] if the person has an addiction, for example, and certain unsavoury behaviours are not acceptable to me from people/person, it's up to me to leave.

:) so are you saying that if a person online keeps coming at me that it is up to me to leave??cause that is how i am reading it violaine. keep in mind that addictions and unsavory behaviors can be side effects of other bigger things going on in the relationship and deserve as much compassion as you seek for your situation. i am not excusing behaviors cause well i am not perfect and have committed my fair share of unsavory behaviors, like stuff that made me want to crawl under a rock instead of dealing with the consequences. in fact i am stilll held to some of those behaviors by certain people instead of getting any benefit of the doubt. *shrugs* i made my bed and accept it.

i think that i do understand what you mean, however- about your question. why should you be the one to navigate round the offending person? in my case, it took a good while to figure it out for myself because [for me] it is less about right or wrong, and hugely about my own sense of preservation.
well and this is what i have been advocating all along...self preservation and safety. right or wrong is relative and not useful to me. what i find useful is people being responsible for their own actions and behaviors. the ones that dont have the ability to do this, well i am not sure what to say about this kind of situation. i do know that when a member sets a clear boundary and it continues to be crossed by another member then placing said invasive member in a victim light is not the answer. i am personally disgusted by that tactic.

Grant


hope i dont sound too harsh...i am a direct and blunt person but i promise i am not coming from an angry place or have bad intent. :)

[weatherboi]

I really think some people don't have the emotional and mental maturity to not cross boundaries no matter how many times they are told.
agreed because i know this from personal experience.

I think some of these same people do need our community.
yessss me too

I think we have decide what kind of website we are going to be. Are we going to make allowances for those people who ON LINE cross our boundaries? Are we going to try and learn to communicate with them, or choose to ignore them? Or do we need to just have a zero tolerance policy?
i think a zero tolerance policy is just as extreme as giving a pass to bad behavior. i think it is relative to each unique situation. i think it is very clear that this website is striving to be inclusive to all even at the expense of others sometimes. everything comes with a struggle. so how long do we continue to try?

To be clear, I am not speaking of anyone who poses a physical threat to anyone or their family. Actual proven physical threat, ZERO tolerance!!!

yessss and i think that to some degree if harassment is happening online then accountability is to be had!

:) just being honest

[Apocalipstic]

:) just being honest

I agree with all of your answers. :)

I think to some degree, on a case to case basis, for me, it seems morally important to make an extra effort to communicate with people who communicate differently than I do when we cross paths...(I am bad at it by nature, so it is a learning process).

And whether or not it is wanted, important to make an extra effort to understand where anger comes from and how people relate.

I think sometimes when some extra care is taken in the first place things will not escalate to the point where rules are broken or people hate each other and someone talks smack...but when that happens I am glad we have the time out thing.

Sometimes people just do not have to coping skills to be on a website and some people can function with some extra help. I am very glad I am not the one to have to make the decision who is and who is not. That's really heavy.

[adorable]

hi everybody!!! :)

from my own personal experience, i was partnered with a person that is DA/on the spectrum. i really do understand the need for NT's to learn a better way to communicate and hear when interacting with Differently-Abled people and people on the Spectrum. i gave passes till it became detrimental to me in an attempt to give this persons intent the benefit of the doubt. sometimes it just is what it is and the person is abusive and cant help it. happiness is something everybody deserves but not at another persons expense.

i have volunteered for some years now at a facility that educates Differently- Abled folks. Not one time in all my training classes were we ever taught to give a person a pass within the schools community for behavior that was deemd as inappropriate or punishable. No matter what level of comprehension skills are present.

It is enabling to have this kind of conversation with someone when it is not true. It invites a relationship that may not be or is not welcome. So why do this???

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


This is actually how I have handled conversations. My tone and the way I chose words can change depending on who I'm talking to. I'm not a social worker or MSW - I was a history major. But I know that it worked for me. I made a friend without having to go thru major drama. Everyone choses how they communicate in this world. Some people make no apologies for it and demand that people accept them for who they are. I am not one of those people. I do try to communicate in a way that makes sense in the situation. Everything will not work for everyone all the time.

so if a person invades my space and i handle it once, twice, even three times with compassion and they continue to escalate to angry behavior then at what point will my accepting and compassionate behavior come back to be used against me?? like when people accuse other people(potential victims)of asking for it.

If you are "handling it" the first time, why then do you continue to "handle it" the same way? Wouldn't the first couple of times be an indication that it's not working?

so if i have a person on ignore and that person comes in here and posts something negative or threatening about me and a person that loves me or maybe people (more than one) that love me report this person does this mean they still get a pass?? i don't feel that is very effective or fair to the community and its unity and safety as a whole.

That is the idea behind ignore. If they threaten anyone they would likely be reported. So if you are ignoring them, how does it hurt you to do that - especially someone that grates your nerves?

so lets say this happens to me with more than one person here...let's say maybe two or three people read that it is ok to behave this way?? what then??? do we give them all passes??

If there was suddenly a bunch of people wanting special treatment I would worry. I have yet to see that though. What I have seen is that the people who actually need a pass have no idea they need one.

so let's say i decide to go to the butch/femme reunion and these same people that have invaded my space in some form or fashion decide they are gonna go?? what then??? i have to go under the guise that if one of them crosses boundaries in my real time space that again they get a pass???

If that actually happens and they physically invade your space - call 911.

how do we decide a persons intent??? behavior is one way i judge intent. i read words online and i read behavior in real time. it is for me to decide not my community. i will not apologize for being cautious of my personal safety because it has been invaded on a level that allows me the reason to keep many at arms length.

Keeping someone at arms length is understandable. Choosing to ignore people is understandable. Not wanting to deal with particular people for any reason makes perfect sense. There is no requirement to engage with anyone. Ignore them. If your personal safety is threatened, it would make sense to report them. As for judging intent, I read people's posts and look for a pattern. If someone has a pattern of any kind - like the way they post or how they talk - I can figure it out by reading their words.

i have a person in my life (family friend i have known for years)that has to carry around a permit to carry a gun everywhere she goes because of a person who had a hard time understanding no. he was Differently-Abled. and couldn't understand why she didn't reciprocate feelings. i think they called this person delusional. this persons intent was never love or connection although said it was.

I know people who are not DA that are violent, mean and dangerous. DA has nothing to do with or hold the patent of delusion. There are plenty of delusional people who think the world revolves around them and demand all kinds of exceptions for their behavior who are not DA.

social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??

The question for me still comes down to capacity. I have seen DA people be dealt with lots of times in lots of different ways. I assume you have an answer to this question since the way that I have attempted to bridge communication gaps you refer to as placating. The remedy? I guess kick them out of the community and the person with the higher capacity for understanding feels better about their surroundings? The ignore button is out because - well people feel compelled to call people on what they perceive to be threats or attacks against them. So I'm not sure what solution you might be offering other then banning. If it's banning - then I guess that would solve the problem.

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.


Grant

A free pass for being invasive and inappropriate can only be given by the offended party. The collective us cannot give someone a pass for someone else. I can, and do chose to give passes. Not just to people who are DA but to people whose tone, tactics and communication styles are far different then mine. To people who say "this is how I am, fuck you if you don't like it, I refuse to change." I give people passes when they are having a bad day. I give people passes when they're drunk and normally would know better. I give them to my friends AND my enemies. It's my choice.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=weatherboi;152969]
what if her intent was to scream and upset you on purpose would you have handled it the same?? since intent seems to be an important topic in this discussion.

i would not have accepted the job-

:) so are you saying that if a person online keeps coming at me that it is up to me to leave??cause that is how i am reading it violaine.

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]oh no! it is not my place to tell you what you 'should' do. i only can write from my experiences, and i hope that you wouldn't leave.

very thorny with online situations, and i have been there myself. in fact, i've been wondering how well other aspies are able to even "communicate" really bad experiences to various online site moderators, and how they have been received by moderators. this comes to mind from something i read in the paper recently.


well and this is what i have been advocating all along...self preservation and safety. right or wrong is relative and not useful to me. what i find useful is people being responsible for their own actions and behaviors. the ones that dont have the ability to do this, well i am not sure what to say about this kind of situation. i do know that when a member sets a clear boundary and it continues to be crossed by another member then placing said invasive member in a victim light is not the answer. i am personally disgusted by that tactic.

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"]i'm not sure either, because i've also had my boundaries crossed, it didn't stop when i asked - instead, it further escalated the person/situation.


hope i dont sound too harsh...i am a direct and blunt person but i promise i am not coming from an angry place or have bad intent. :)

not at all! i appreciate straightforward, and reading what you share, Grant.

[weatherboi]

hi everybody!!!

from my own personal experience, i was partnered with a person that is DA/on the spectrum. i really do understand the need for NT's to learn a better way to communicate and hear when interacting with Differently-Abled people and people on the Spectrum. i gave passes till it became detrimental to me in an attempt to give this persons intent the benefit of the doubt. sometimes it just is what it is and the person is abusive and cant help it. happiness is something everybody deserves but not at another persons expense.

i have volunteered for some years now at a facility that educates Differently- Abled folks. Not one time in all my training classes were we ever taught to give a person a pass within the schools community for behavior that was deemd as inappropriate or punishable. No matter what level of comprehension skills are present.

It is enabling to have this kind of conversation with someone when it is not true. It invites a relationship that may not be or is not welcome. So why do this???

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


This is actually how I have handled conversations. My tone and the way I chose words can change depending on who I'm talking to. I'm not a social worker or MSW - I was a history major. But I know that it worked for me. I made a friend without having to go thru major drama. Everyone choses how they communicate in this world. Some people make no apologies for it and demand that people accept them for who they are. I am not one of those people. I do try to communicate in a way that makes sense in the situation. Everything will not work for everyone all the time.
yeah but the focus of the technic is creating a space for a relationship that may not be wanted and you didnt answer that aspect of it...you answered what you are comfortble with and what you expect everybody else should be comfortable with too.

so if a person invades my space and i handle it once, twice, even three times with compassion and they continue to escalate to angry behavior then at what point will my accepting and compassionate behavior come back to be used against me?? like when people accuse other people(potential victims)of asking for it.

If you are "handling it" the first time, why then do you continue to "handle it" the same way? Wouldn't the first couple of times be an indication that it's not working?
i never stated it is always handled the same. what i get is that if i gotta reiterate my boundaries to a person then clearly i am not the one with the problem. the fact that it has to be handled more than once should be noted as not ok and no means no. why does my handling of it need to be questioned if i am not the one creating the problem? mild form of victim blaming maybe??

so if i have a person on ignore and that person comes in here and posts something negative or threatening about me and a person that loves me or maybe people (more than one) that love me report this person does this mean they still get a pass?? i don't feel that is very effective or fair to the community and its unity and safety as a whole.

That is the idea behind ignore. If they threaten anyone they would likely be reported. So if you are ignoring them, how does it hurt you to do that - especially someone that grates your nerves?ehind
so you are saying they get a pass???

so lets say this happens to me with more than one person here...let's say maybe two or three people read that it is ok to behave this way?? what then??? do we give them all passes??

If there was suddenly a bunch of people wanting special treatment I would worry. I have yet to see that though. What I have seen is that the people who actually need a pass have no idea they need one.
i never said a bunch of people adorable...why are you changing my meanings around to suit your agenda. i am trying to have a thoughtful conversation with you. i said 2 or 3!!! and what i have seen is people who push boundaries are strategic about it and know they can manipulate people into advocating they deserve one.

so let's say i decide to go to the butch/femme reunion and these same people that have invaded my space in some form or fashion decide they are gonna go?? what then??? i have to go under the guise that if one of them crosses boundaries in my real time space that again they get a pass???

If that actually happens and they physically invade your space - call 911.
nice adorable...minimize my concerns to suit your agenda once again. ever heard of online stalkers??

how do we decide a persons intent??? behavior is one way i judge intent. i read words online and i read behavior in real time. it is for me to decide not my community. i will not apologize for being cautious of my personal safety because it has been invaded on a level that allows me the reason to keep many at arms length.

Keeping someone at arms length is understandable. Choosing to ignore people is understandable. Not wanting to deal with particular people for any reason makes perfect sense. There is no requirement to engage with anyone. Ignore them. If your personal safety is threatened, it would make sense to report them. As for judging intent, I read people's posts and look for a pattern. If some has a pattern of any kind - like the way they post or how they talk - I can figure it out by reading their words

i have a person in my life (family friend i have known for years)that has to carry around a permit to carry a gun everywhere she goes because of a person who had a hard time understanding no. he was Differently-Abled. and couldn't understand why she didn't reciprocate feelings. i think they called this person delusional. this persons intent was never love or connection although said it was.

I know people who are not DA that are violent, mean and dangerous. DA has nothing to do with or hold the patent of delusion. There are plenty of delusional people who think the world revolves around them and demand all kinds of exceptions for their behavior who are not DA.
yes adorable i am well rounded thinking enough to know this but thanks :). i am not saying that all DA or people on the Spectrum are violent and delusional but good try! ;)

social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??

The question for me still comes down to capacity. I have seen DA people be dealt with lots of times in lots of different ways. I assume you have an answer to this question since the way that I have attempted to bridge communication gaps you refer to as placating. The remedy? I guess kick them out of the community and the person with the higher capacity for understanding feels better about their surroundings? The ignore button is out because - well people feel compelled to call people on what they perceive to be threats or attacks against them. So I'm not sure what solution you might be offering other then banning. If it's banning - then I guess that would solve the problem.

adorable i never advocated banning anybody...i advocate holding everybody accountable equally on this website no matter what their capacity.

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.


Grant
A free pass for being invasive and inappropriate can only be given by the offended party. The collective us cannot give someone a pass for someone else. I can, and do chose to give passes. Not just to people who are DA but to people whose tone, tactics and communication styles are far different then mine. To people who say "this is how I am, fuck you if you don't like it, I refuse to change." I give people passes when they are having a bad day. I give people passes when they're drunk and normally would know better. I give them to my friends AND my enemies. It's my choice.

wow...even if that fuck you was a collective general fuck you?? cause i tend to not take things personally when people are speaking in the general fuck you...but that is my choice. as for drunks, advocators of the devils side and just people having a bad day well i will say i never felt like i needed to give em a pass because what they are doing is only hurting themselves and not me or any of my loved ones. another personal choice i am happy with.

adorable have you ever been the victim of a violent crime?? for some of us that have our lives don't allow for passes to people who invade our space and continue to cross boundaries. it is my reality not a choice.

[adorable]

hi everybody!!!

from my own personal experience, i was partnered with a person that is DA/on the spectrum. i really do understand the need for NT's to learn a better way to communicate and hear when interacting with Differently-Abled people and people on the Spectrum. i gave passes till it became detrimental to me in an attempt to give this persons intent the benefit of the doubt. sometimes it just is what it is and the person is abusive and cant help it. happiness is something everybody deserves but not at another persons expense.

i have volunteered for some years now at a facility that educates Differently- Abled folks. Not one time in all my training classes were we ever taught to give a person a pass within the schools community for behavior that was deemd as inappropriate or punishable. No matter what level of comprehension skills are present.

It is enabling to have this kind of conversation with someone when it is not true. It invites a relationship that may not be or is not welcome. So why do this???

"I'm sorry, I'm not interested."
"Why? You would like me. I want to be your girlfriend."
"Oh I do like you and I think we should just be friends."
"I want to be friends too."
"Good, me too."


This is actually how I have handled conversations. My tone and the way I chose words can change depending on who I'm talking to. I'm not a social worker or MSW - I was a history major. But I know that it worked for me. I made a friend without having to go thru major drama. Everyone choses how they communicate in this world. Some people make no apologies for it and demand that people accept them for who they are. I am not one of those people. I do try to communicate in a way that makes sense in the situation. Everything will not work for everyone all the time.
yeah but the focus of the technic is creating a space for a relationship that may not be wanted and you didnt answer that aspect of it...you answered what you are comfortble with and what you expect everybody else should be comfortable with too.

so if a person invades my space and i handle it once, twice, even three times with compassion and they continue to escalate to angry behavior then at what point will my accepting and compassionate behavior come back to be used against me?? like when people accuse other people(potential victims)of asking for it.

If you are "handling it" the first time, why then do you continue to "handle it" the same way? Wouldn't the first couple of times be an indication that it's not working?
i never stated it is always handled the same. what i get is that if i gotta reiterate my boundaries to a person then clearly i am not the one with the problem. the fact that it has to be handled more than once should be noted as not ok and no means no. why does my handling of it need to be questioned if i am not the one creating the problem? mild form of victim blaming maybe??

so if i have a person on ignore and that person comes in here and posts something negative or threatening about me and a person that loves me or maybe people (more than one) that love me report this person does this mean they still get a pass?? i don't feel that is very effective or fair to the community and its unity and safety as a whole.

That is the idea behind ignore. If they threaten anyone they would likely be reported. So if you are ignoring them, how does it hurt you to do that - especially someone that grates your nerves?ehind
so you are saying they get a pass???

so lets say this happens to me with more than one person here...let's say maybe two or three people read that it is ok to behave this way?? what then??? do we give them all passes??

If there was suddenly a bunch of people wanting special treatment I would worry. I have yet to see that though. What I have seen is that the people who actually need a pass have no idea they need one.
i never said a bunch of people adorable...why are you changing my meanings around to suit your agenda. i am trying to have a thoughtful conversation with you. i said 2 or 3!!! and what i have seen is people who push boundaries are strategic about it and know they can manipulate people into advocating they deserve one.

It must be that I am not smart enough to read your words and gather your meaning or have a discussion about something. If you read someone a certain way that is the only way to read them. I apologize for having my own thoughts.

so let's say i decide to go to the butch/femme reunion and these same people that have invaded my space in some form or fashion decide they are gonna go?? what then??? i have to go under the guise that if one of them crosses boundaries in my real time space that again they get a pass???

If that actually happens and they physically invade your space - call 911.
nice adorable...minimize my concerns to suit your agenda once again. ever heard of online stalkers??

Advocating the use of 911 is not minimizing concerns. Unless we have different uses of the word 911 which I doubt.

how do we decide a persons intent??? behavior is one way i judge intent. i read words online and i read behavior in real time. it is for me to decide not my community. i will not apologize for being cautious of my personal safety because it has been invaded on a level that allows me the reason to keep many at arms length.

Keeping someone at arms length is understandable. Choosing to ignore people is understandable. Not wanting to deal with particular people for any reason makes perfect sense. There is no requirement to engage with anyone. Ignore them. If your personal safety is threatened, it would make sense to report them. As for judging intent, I read people's posts and look for a pattern. If some has a pattern of any kind - like the way they post or how they talk - I can figure it out by reading their words

i have a person in my life (family friend i have known for years)that has to carry around a permit to carry a gun everywhere she goes because of a person who had a hard time understanding no. he was Differently-Abled. and couldn't understand why she didn't reciprocate feelings. i think they called this person delusional. this persons intent was never love or connection although said it was.

I know people who are not DA that are violent, mean and dangerous. DA has nothing to do with or hold the patent of delusion. There are plenty of delusional people who think the world revolves around them and demand all kinds of exceptions for their behavior who are not DA.
yes adorable i am well rounded thinking enough to know this but thanks :). i am not saying that all DA or people on the Spectrum are violent and delusional but good try! ;)

A good try for what? Odd.

social blunders/awkwardness are something we all are privy to doing. the intent is easily understood and i don't feel that is the issue at hand. invasive behavior from any person is the issue, wheather they are NT, on the Spectrum or Differently- Abled. invasive behavior that continues and the intent behind it is not so easily understood and can be dangerous. so at what point do we stop excusing it and remedy it?? why does it have to be up to the person who is having their space invaded to navigate themselves around the offending person??

The question for me still comes down to capacity. I have seen DA people be dealt with lots of times in lots of different ways. I assume you have an answer to this question since the way that I have attempted to bridge communication gaps you refer to as placating. The remedy? I guess kick them out of the community and the person with the higher capacity for understanding feels better about their surroundings? The ignore button is out because - well people feel compelled to call people on what they perceive to be threats or attacks against them. So I'm not sure what solution you might be offering other then banning. If it's banning - then I guess that would solve the problem.

adorable i never advocated banning anybody...i advocate holding everybody accountable equally on this website no matter what their capacity.

I disagree.

do I think that DA, and people on the Spectrum should be added in the TOS as to not be targeted for discrimination or hatred?...yes. do i think a free pass for being invasive and inappropriate??...no, not at the expense of another persons safety and comfort.


Grant
A free pass for being invasive and inappropriate can only be given by the offended party. The collective us cannot give someone a pass for someone else. I can, and do chose to give passes. Not just to people who are DA but to people whose tone, tactics and communication styles are far different then mine. To people who say "this is how I am, fuck you if you don't like it, I refuse to change." I give people passes when they are having a bad day. I give people passes when they're drunk and normally would know better. I give them to my friends AND my enemies. It's my choice.

wow...even if that fuck you was a collective general fuck you?? cause i tend to not take things personally when people are speaking in the general fuck you...but that is my choice. as for drunks, advocators of the devils side and just people having a bad day well i will say i never felt like i needed to give em a pass because what they are doing is only hurting themselves and not me or any of my loved ones. another personal choice i am happy with.

adorable have you ever been the victim of a violent crime?? for some of us that have our lives don't allow for passes to people who invade our space and continue to cross boundaries. it is my reality not a choice.

Oh seriously - there is no agenda. I have a position that is opposite of yours so to be accused of having an agenda because of that seems to be more of a tactic to discredit what I'm saying. If you don't agree with me, I am fine with that. If your expectation is that because you say something I MUST agree with your or I am the devil - that is problematic.

Apparently you asked questions so that you would get the answers that you wanted. Discussions are out of the question - you already know the answer. So why ask then?

As for being the victim of violent crimes, yes I have. Each one perpetrated by a man. In fact, if you had read all my posts in this thread, I have said that personal safety is something that should be taken seriously and if someone really believes that their personal safety is threatened that they should report.

People do hurt other people, whether intentional or not. That is life. Some people EXPECT a pass for the way they talk or conduct themselves because society says they shouldn't. I guess for some it's ok for other's it's not. Either way, as I said before it is up to the offended party to give a pass, not the collective us. Trying to communicate on behalf of someone else does make me an advocate. Having an opinion in a thread does not. I do have a right to think and not have to agree with people. Blaming the victim? I don't see where I blamed the victim here. Unless victim blaming = I disagree with you. In order to not be seen as blaming, I have to agree?

[christie]

as I said before it is up to the offended party to give a pass, not the collective us.

I snipped the above post -

This statement, to me, is SO true. Just as I can't speak for another, I also can't give a pass to a DA person unless the interaction is with me. I can sit here behind the screen and think about how I would act/react in a given situation, but until I am in the midst of it, I honestly can't say how/what I would do or say.

I think that as the parent of a DA person, I have a responsibility to not give him passes on things that are considered inappropriate social behaviors. Not all parents/caregivers/loved ones of DA's feel the same way as I do, nor should they. How we choose to move through this world is very subjective and I really try to speak from the lessons I have learned through my 24/7/365 experiences garnered over a 15 year time span of dealing with a DA person. This doesn't make me an authority on DA's or NaT's, but rather the resident expert of *my* DA son.

I also have different opinions on personal safety issues. I realize there are online stalkers out there and have experienced it first hand. I understand being a violent crime victim, as I have been, but how I deal with the fallout of that experience is different than the examples I have seen here. For me, online is something that I have the choice to walk away from - I can either employ the "ignore" feature or I can just turn it off and walk away - or I can do both - or neither.

For me, continuing to give life/energy to a situation/issue is something I can control. I have found, just like with Bratboy and the arm tapping, the more attention I give to the unwanted behavior, the more he engages. If I disengage by ignoring it, he usually gets tired and ceases. I try to apply this same logic to online folks - if I don't engage, its pretty hard to offend/be inappropriate with me.

*I* don't give the same weight to online interactions as I do real-time ones. I concern myself more with keeping my eye on billybubbabob redneck who can follow us home from wally world and do me and mine physical harm.

In saying that, I am NOT saying that I advocate different standards/rules/expectations of DA's in online communities. I do think that one set of rules for all should be the expectation. How we, as a community, go about ensuring the rules are applied equally is the issue and what I thought was the intent of this thread.

I believe that DA's should be treated as an 'ism. I wouldn't want to be part of a place that allows DA's to be discriminated against, any more than I want to be part of a place that allowed other types of discrimination.

I want to mention that I am off to TN and won't be around the thread much for the next 4 days - my absence is not that I am leaving the conversation because I think that it is important and timely.

[adorable]

I snipped the above post -

This statement, to me, is SO true. Just as I can't speak for another, I also can't give a pass to a DA person unless the interaction is with me. I can sit here behind the screen and think about how I would act/react in a given situation, but until I am in the midst of it, I honestly can't say how/what I would do or say.

Very, very true! (the highlighted part) In my mind when I see something happening where I percieve a situation differently - I actually think it makes me a good friend to say so. A 'maybe it's actually this way' kind of thing. That doesn't make it so ~ any more then it makes me wrong. And I can give examples of how I handled interactions myself that for me worked. They may not work for everyone.

I think that as the parent of a DA person, I have a responsibility to not give him passes on things that are considered inappropriate social behaviors. Not all parents/caregivers/loved ones of DA's feel the same way as I do, nor should they. How we choose to move through this world is very subjective and I really try to speak from the lessons I have learned through my 24/7/365 experiences garnered over a 15 year time span of dealing with a DA person. This doesn't make me an authority on DA's or NaT's, but rather the resident expert of *my* DA son.

I share custody of an 18 year old boy with my ex. It is her brother. We have had custody of him for several years. He is deaf, developmentally disabled and has anger/frustration issues. His ability to communicate is limited by his developmental disability - not because of his deafness. His anger comes from people not understanding him when he is trying to put thoughts out there. Society doesn't think that it's appropriate for him and my 9 year old daughter to play like 9 year olds. I give him passes all the time. I don't look at the 18 year old man standing there and expect him to act in a way that he simply cannot. I don't assume that I will need to only tell him things once or twice. In fact, I have gotten frustrated and realized that I was yelling after the 5th time I've told him something because he wasn't getting it. By my yelling, I was causing more of a problem, he wasn't understanding what I was saying so then he is reacting to my anger. He doesn't know why I'm angry, just that I am. He can tell by my tone and overall look of annoyance. He does things that he doesn't know are wrong. Like the playing like a child thing - or carving the word superman into my grandmothers 70 year old china hutch. I can berate him for that. Or I can tell him in simple words that it's not ok and with gentleness then move on. He already has by the time the conversation is happening.

I also have different opinions on personal safety issues. I realize there are online stalkers out there and have experienced it first hand. I understand being a violent crime victim, as I have been, but how I deal with the fallout of that experience is different than the examples I have seen here. For me, online is something that I have the choice to walk away from - I can either employ the "ignore" feature or I can just turn it off and walk away - or I can do both - or neither.

I agree. Personal safety is a huge issue. I am responsible for limiting the amount of online information that I make available. So that just ANYONE can't find me. My experience has been that there are people lurking that say nothing and pop up unexpectedly..

For me, continuing to give life/energy to a situation/issue is something I can control. I have found, just like with Bratboy and the arm tapping, the more attention I give to the unwanted behavior, the more he engages. If I disengage by ignoring it, he usually gets tired and ceases. I try to apply this same logic to online folks - if I don't engage, its pretty hard to offend/be inappropriate with me.

Again, I agree. Although in my case, he has a habit of sucking his top lip. Everytime I see him doing it I have to say stop it. Stop it. Stop it. It doesn't stop. If I ignore it, he will suck the top of his lip raw. I am stopping the behavior only for that moment. When he gets angry, we do walk away and let him cool off until we can come back to the table. This is where I think the higher capacity comes in. His parents didn't do that. His parents hit him, lashed out, called him stupid - ugh. I have the higher level of understanding and capacity - it is my responsibilty not to engage. (For me this is in real time or online.) My ex, sometimes has that capacity, it was much more difficult to not engage with her mental illness since she wasn't always present if that makes sense.

*I* don't give the same weight to online interactions as I do real-time ones. I concern myself more with keeping my eye on billybubbabob redneck who can follow us home from wally world and do me and mine physical harm.

In saying that, I am NOT saying that I advocate different standards/rules/expectations of DA's in online communities. I do think that one set of rules for all should be the expectation. How we, as a community, go about ensuring the rules are applied equally is the issue and what I thought was the intent of this thread.

Me too. Although, I think and I am pretty sure that this is how it is anyway - the report button works if you chose to use it. My line of thinking is this - everyone is going to screw up one way or another at some point. There is a TOS - most people have read it, some people don't understand it. If someone says something that I think is offensive, wrong, dangerous or upsetting I *CAN* push that report button. In doing that I am reporting a TOS violation that I see. I also have the option of personally giving someone a pass by NOT doing it. If what I know of the person is that this post is out of the norm for them - I don't have to report it. If I read this person as struggling all the time - I don't have to report it. If I know that english is their second language and they most likely didn't mean it - I don't have to report it. I personally chose to give passes when I feel they are appropriate. In that way, *I* don't enforce the TOS (well - ever it's not my job but I hope you follow me) but I am not enforcing it the same way for all people all the time. If someone just flat out irks me constantly. They annoy me. I hate the way they post or the stupid things they say - I CAN ignore them. I don't have to. I can keep getting annoyed and upset.

I believe that DA's should be treated as an 'ism. I wouldn't want to be part of a place that allows DA's to be discriminated against, any more than I want to be part of a place that allowed other types of discrimination.

I want to mention that I am off to TN and won't be around the thread much for the next 4 days - my absence is not that I am leaving the conversation because I think that it is important and timely.

Have fun in TN! :)

[Glenn]

I've seen some folks that are usually sweethearts here, get timed out because they had a beef about another member, groups of members, or a topic. I think that special care should be given to these members via a private message in an understanding way, along with a warning, rather than a moderator only giving a warning once or twice in the forum.

[Gemme]

I've seen some folks that are usually sweethearts here, get timed out because they had a beef about another member, groups of members, or a topic. I think that special care should be given to these members via a private message in an understanding way, along with a warning, rather than a moderator only giving a warning once or twice in the forum.

That is what is done. It's when the private warnings go unheeded that it is taken to public action.

[Plato]

Some people do not have moments of clarity. In order for someone to change they have to understand the wrong. Just because SOME people have that ability doesn't mean that all do. I'm sure that in recovery you've heard "The capacity to be honest..." Not every addict or alcoholic has it. Everyone will eventually walk away from them and they will end up institutionalized, in jail or dead. This stems from CHOICES that they made.

With mental illness there is no choice to be made. Nor is there in developmental disability or some brain injuries or some disorders. That motivation to change that you speak of only comes with the ability to understand the underlying need for change - a level of self awareness that comes with the ability to rationalize and understand behavior and an ability to control that behavior. Also known as hitting bottom. It can be relative to the person that you are dealing with for lots of different reasons. Not everyone is aware and I promise that all the yelling in the world will not make someone able to understand when that ability doesn't exist. I think it's self centered to think that because I am enlightened - that I get it - everyone else must too so they must be making a choice to piss me off, annoy me, not act right.....then I can take that one step further and hold the world accountable to MY standard of right and wrong.

I have the luxury of choice. I can wake up tomorrow and CHOOSE how I will conduct myself in public. How I will interact with people, how I will wear my hair and what color my nails will be. I will choose to walk out the door just once. But what if I wake up tomorrow and believe that if I don't walk out the door perfectly 15 times that I will die? What if I can't walk out the door perfectly? What if you think that is stupid? Is it better to scream at me that it's stupid, cause me internal panic and conflict then force me out the door anyway because YOU know and that shit ain't gonna fly with you? People can and do kill themselves to stop the torment.

What if I believe that there are people who are trying to kill me? There is no uncertainty. I know it. I hear people that I know whispering that in my ears. I can smell the fear in a room. I see smoke. It's real to people who feel it, who see it. That is their reality. Go ahead and tell them they have a choice to come out from behind the couch. That it's not true. That no one is trying to kill them - it's all make believe. Then, come back and let me know how that worked out for you. I can tell you how it ends.

Or tell someone who is really 13 years old, even though she looks much older that she needs to put down her cell phone and get back to work. Tell her 30 times. Hell, go ahead and tell her 100 times. Treat her the same as everyone else. Rules are rules. Fire her for not listening like a 25 year old should listen because YOU said so. Sorry. That doesn't work for me. She is not 25, her brain doesn't function at the same level. There are rules for our society. By our societal standards she shouldn't even have a job. She can't even chew with her mouth closed. Not because she doesn't know she should, but because her brain can't focus on chewing AND keeping her mouth closed. That isn't funny. That is her reality. I celebrate her ability to have a job at all. I focus on what she does right. I will tell her and try to guide her, but telling someone all about themselves and their shortcomings when they don't have the ability to understand - seems abusive. Who really gets something out of that?

I wouldn't give someone making a choice to do something destructive a pass in the same way. I am talking about the ability to think, understand, comprehend and possession of a critical thinking ability. Not everyone has it. It's rather easy and privileged to think everyone should.

To me it similar to thinking everyone should just speak English or just move out of the projects if they want a better life. It IS that easy right? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people just "got it" and didn't live to annoy the rest of us people with all of our smarts and reasoning?


You're right. Not everyone has the capacity to be honest, or even kind, for that matter.

When in the company of someone who has a very different reality than mine, I do not insist on what is right or what is wrong. In fact, I take great effort to listen to their voices, see what they see, and understand what is real for them. That's not giving a pass. That is compassion and empathy.

Like water, the world seeks balance, not turmoil. Turmoil is caused when one person's/group's needs/desires are seen as more important, or more right, than all others.

Why would I insist on making someone chew with their mouth shut? If I know they are unable to perform a societal norm, my insistence would only be to make myself more comfortable. That would be me creating turmoil and not balance.

I choose to uphold my boundary and not face them when we eat together. (Gee, does this sound like an actual situation???)

If, during a moment of clarity, should such person ask me why I move or not sit facing them, I would say "Because I don't like to watch the food mush in your mouth".
My boundary remains intact and I have not made an insistence that they do something differently to make me more comfortable.
Their dignity remains intact because the asked question has been answered honestly.
To reply, "Oh do I?" or "No I don't" would be disrespecting the human being that they are. THAT is a pass/head-patting!!!!

... and why, oh why would I EVER act like I was okay with ANYONE who is abusive???
What am I demonstrating to our children when I do such a thing???

[SuperFemme]

i am in incredible pain right now but feel compelled to post.

i thank everyone for participating, its an important conversation.

i want to reiterate AGAIN that giving a pass is not about erasing empathy and compassion. people don't seem to be getting that message....

a "pass" is a different set of rules for DA people and a complete lack of personal responsibility.

as the Disability Ambassador for the site, i can assure you that the planet goes out of it's way to take into account peoples DA's.

what the planet is not going to do (i'm pretty sure) is to make DA people a special class that is not responsible for their own behaviors.

i also find it SO incredibly dismissing that as a DA person asking to be treated that same as everyone else, that i am hearing over and over (by non DA'd people no less) how important it is for me to be treated differently.

christie, you assumed snow was talking about a specific member and claimed you knew because of specific interactions you had witnessed. she told you it was not. i found your responses to snow incredibly dismissive.

after reading this thread, i worry that a woman who has been raped, stalked, harassed, etc. will come to this thread and read that if a DA person is the perp that they are not protected. in fact it really feels like some people have twisted it into a "blame the victim" kind of thing, by shaming the offended person. saying it is up to the offended person to not be offended is beyond the pale IMO. and i'm not talking about hurt feelings or simply not getting along. i am talking about the rules that are in place here to make it safe for everyone.

some of the examples given as reasons for a different set of rules are really really a far stretch.

for instance the example of somebody being 25 but congnitively 13. Even 5 year olds know the difference between right and wrong. this is an adult website and when i first came to the b/f online community 9 years ago?
i was about 5 or 6 on a cognitive level. i was banned about 3 times during that period. i was not able to exist in an adult environment, and when i was able to? i came back.

i don't even want to get into how damaging it would be for members to go around assigning age, cognitive level, and diagnosis for our DA membership. can you imagine?

i also was really upset by the poor example of a drunk driver killing somebody vs. a person having a heart attack and killing someone. seriously? drunk driving is a fucking choice that kills thousands every year. i was almost one of those. to compare it to a medical emergency and attempt to assign "intent" to it is a red herring. there is no such thing as DWCA (driving with clogged arteries) is there? there is absolute intent when a person gets behind the wheel drunk.

i'm running out of steam, but i want everyone to know that the mods and admins deal with issues on a case by case basis. that has been said many many times, and it is absolutely true.

so social blunder, awkwardness, cognitive issues and all other things attached to DA people is always taken into account.

the owners and mods must also take every single member into account and what is safe sometimes.

i AM DA'd. I want the same rules. When people who are not DA'd come along and purport to know what's best for me and then lower their expectations it sends me a message. that message is that i will never be like you.

when i am sent the message that i am responsible for my actions, you can bet that i am going to rise to the level of expectation that is given to me.

it's rare that i've run into a DA'd person who does not.

at rehab i'd see the over protective mom, wheeling her kid around, feeding her lunch, and even attempting to sit in classes such as social skills. once the staff banned the mom from the property the child improved by leaps and bounds. why? because they rose to the level of expectations that the rehab put upon them.

i am always going to treat all members as human beings. that means compassion and empathy being extended. will i make mistakes? you bet.
but i am not about to diminish the other DA'd members here by expecting nothing of them. we're a great bunch, and there are a LOT of DA'd members here who won't out themselves as DA'd because they don't want to be viewed through that lens.

i don't blame them.

i don't know if any of this makes any sense, i shouldn't even be posting the day after surgery and my pain level is about a 13 right now.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=popcorninthesofa;153481]I've seen some folks that are usually sweethearts here, get timed out because they had a beef about another member, groups of members, or a topic. I think that special care should be given to these members via a private message in an understanding way, along with a warning, rather than a moderator only giving a warning once or twice in the forum.

some people are given private messages for reported posts/other issues via a PM 'warning'. i'm not sure how 'understanding' the message can be read, because i think, they might be kind of a form letter/general-type reminder. i've received a couple of them over the years, [whether or not i agreed with the 'warnings' i chose to not 'dispute' the issued warnings] because i have observed interactions over the years, and learned some interesting and valuable differences between NT-AT processing, and how it presents online in certain areas.

with regard to warning letters issued, 'fairness' for the NT-AT 'set up' - i.e., the big picture, can be rather complex! in my case, sure, the warning was right/true- in part! it takes two for me to even get to that point, and yes, i take responsibility for my own 'actions'. i know that i am not as savvy in some areas, nor do i have any interest in setting someone up to 'get caught' or 'fail'. the report button has only been hit by me once elsewhere.

so, whenever i hear things from offending person- claims: to be good friends with certain people, wishing me luck with any of my own 'reporting', and on and on- this is the kind of complicated arena that someone like me, on the spectrum, cannot NAVIGATE. by the time it comes for this AT to try and compose a thought out letter to any [and which??] moderator, situation is so layered/twisted and i am so worn out, that the only thing clear, and what very well may have been seen clearly- was indeed my fuck up, because i wrote very straightforwardly, in my way, to offending person.

a friend of mine said the only people who would understand what i'm trying to convey would be those who are on the spectrum. is this true? if so, then the majority sees me right now claiming 'victim' role? that is simply not my truth. opportunities to see a depth can get blown away when many other pieces/parts contributing to larger issues are there, but "if" people only remain in the black and white, or listen to people online who listen to other people online, and maintain 'oh, she's just playing a Victim again' how does this help for future issues involving NT-AT interactions and very different processing? i could imagine the people who are moderators turning grey overnight from handling such issues!

[SuperFemme]

I'm pretty sure that NOBODY on this site has EVER been timed out for disagreeing with a person or groups of people. If so, I'd like to see where.

I am also pretty sure that there is no form letter response on this site.

Interactions with mods/admins are personal and one on one conversations, not form letters. The Planet has done a great job of NOT giving time outs and bans as a rule.

Violane, I've never seen you in the role of a victim. Ever. I hear what you are saying about somebody being nasty and saying they are good friends with certain people and wishing you "luck". That is outright shitty behavior, and not tolerated here.

I think it's important to separate what happened at the dash site with the set up here. Because the two things are light years apart.

I also want to put out there that is anybody with a different ability is having an issue (be it with the mods or other members) that you can pm me. As the DA Ambassador here it is my job to make sure that the DA members are treated fairly. If anyone feels like that is NOT happening, please contact me and I can act as a mediator if necessary, or point you in the right direction.

[adorable]

i am in incredible pain right now but feel compelled to post.

I know you just got out of the hospital and I hope you feel better soon.

i thank everyone for participating, its an important conversation.

i want to reiterate AGAIN that giving a pass is not about erasing empathy and compassion. people don't seem to be getting that message....

a "pass" is a different set of rules for DA people and a complete lack of personal responsibility.

as the Disability Ambassador for the site, i can assure you that the planet goes out of it's way to take into account peoples DA's.

I agree.

what the planet is not going to do (i'm pretty sure) is to make DA people a special class that is not responsible for their own behaviors.

i also find it SO incredibly dismissing that as a DA person asking to be treated that same as everyone else, that i am hearing over and over (by non DA'd people no less) how important it is for me to be treated differently.

This is the discussion part that you mentioned earlier. And I assume why you started the thread.

christie, you assumed snow was talking about a specific member and claimed you knew because of specific interactions you had witnessed. she told you it was not. i found your responses to snow incredibly dismissive.



after reading this thread, i worry that a woman who has been raped, stalked, harassed, etc. will come to this thread and read that if a DA person is the perp that they are not protected. in fact it really feels like some people have twisted it into a "blame the victim" kind of thing, by shaming the offended person. saying it is up to the offended person to not be offended is beyond the pale IMO. and i'm not talking about hurt feelings or simply not getting along. i am talking about the rules that are in place here to make it safe for everyone.

I have been raped, stalked and harrassed and it happened when I was 9 months pregnant. That person was a sociopath which does make someone differently abled. He was given a pass for his behavior by society and sentanced to a mental hospital for 30 days of which he stayed 15whole days. Until he did the same thing again in another state to another woman and was sent to prison for six years. As a participant in this thread, I haven't read any posts or interpreted it to mean that I personally am not protected the same way I would be anywhere on the internet.

I also don't see the blame the victim thing since it's been said at least a dozen times that this thread isn't about any particular person or situation. I was having a discussion about whether or not people should be given a pass. If the answer is already clear and defined then discussing it is kind of moot, no?

some of the examples given as reasons for a different set of rules are really really a far stretch.

for instance the example of somebody being 25 but congnitively 13. Even 5 year olds know the difference between right and wrong. this is an adult website and when i first came to the b/f online community 9 years ago?
i was about 5 or 6 on a cognitive level. i was banned about 3 times during that period. i was not able to exist in an adult environment, and when i was able to? i came back.

I agree. That makes a lot of sense to me.

i don't even want to get into how damaging it would be for members to go around assigning age, cognitive level, and diagnosis for our DA membership. can you imagine?

I agree.
i also was really upset by the poor example of a drunk driver killing somebody vs. a person having a heart attack and killing someone. seriously? drunk driving is a fucking choice that kills thousands every year. i was almost one of those. to compare it to a medical emergency and attempt to assign "intent" to it is a red herring. there is no such thing as DWCA (driving with clogged arteries) is there? there is absolute intent when a person gets behind the wheel drunk.

Actually that is exactly what I said.

i'm running out of steam, but i want everyone to know that the mods and admins deal with issues on a case by case basis. that has been said many many times, and it is absolutely true.

so social blunder, awkwardness, cognitive issues and all other things attached to DA people is always taken into account.

the owners and mods must also take every single member into account and what is safe sometimes.

i AM DA'd. I want the same rules. When people who are not DA'd come along and purport to know what's best for me and then lower their expectations it sends me a message. that message is that i will never be like you.

when i am sent the message that i am responsible for my actions, you can bet that i am going to rise to the level of expectation that is given to me.


it's rare that i've run into a DA'd person who does not.

I have seen people who aren't DA be able to live up to other people's expectations. My experience is not everyone's experience and I don't feel that I should be the standard for others.

at rehab i'd see the over protective mom, wheeling her kid around, feeding her lunch, and even attempting to sit in classes such as social skills. once the staff banned the mom from the property the child improved by leaps and bounds. why? because they rose to the level of expectations that the rehab put upon them.

Good point.

i am always going to treat all members as human beings. that means compassion and empathy being extended. will i make mistakes? you bet.
but i am not about to diminish the other DA'd members here by expecting nothing of them. we're a great bunch, and there are a LOT of DA'd members here who won't out themselves as DA'd because they don't want to be viewed through that lens.

i don't blame them.

i don't know if any of this makes any sense, i shouldn't even be posting the day after surgery and my pain level is about a 13 right now.

Again. I sincerely hope you feel better soon. :(

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've seen some folks that are usually sweethearts here, get timed out because they had a beef about another member, groups of members, or a topic. I think that special care should be given to these members via a private message in an understanding way, along with a warning, rather than a moderator only giving a warning once or twice in the forum.


I am fully aware I am a community member that is not a *sweetheart* and what I mean by that is I don't post all sugary and sweet nor do I add any form of glitter be it verbal or visual. Am I a sweet heart at all? Most likely to those I love and care for and those who I have spent some kind of invested time with. I find it funny in the ironic funny ha ha kind of way that if I had been a more *sweet* kind of posting femme the stories would be different.

The outrage would be different and this thread may have continued with it's intent. *I* am feeling this because when I read that if you are DA and NT and there is some form of inappropriate behaviours the NT persons experience is dismissed.

No means NO..

It's universal, nowhere in this world can you scream out no to someone who is crossing a line (regardless of how small that line is) and then the person screaming no will be looked upon as being wrong, lacking empathy and for the shame having someone wag their finger at them for putting themselves in that situation or for not just walking away.

I am in awe at this very thought.

The world regardless of our capacities has rules, NO

STOP

LEAVE ME ALONE

are things we are ALL taught to respect. I was at least in a few languages.

I can't wrap my head around the whole some people you can tell no to and they don't have to listen to you thinking.

I can't wrap my mind around the whole if you type like this and smile and spread sunshine :cheerleader::loveletter: and some :fireworks: you are valued more vs the
people who tend not to be so sweet and are a lil more brutal. I call that double standards. That's just me though, and while fully aware that this is an image I live with, and am fine with I still gotta say it's gross to watch the value according to who is more important and who is not.

When someone gets told over and over and over and it's handled by the person, by mods, by the leaders of the community and they still choose to not heed those warnings should they be given a special pass to say whatever they want at any given time?

If yes why?

Why can't everyone have that pass?

How uncomfortable for the people who aren't as assertive as some of us, who will get their boundaries crossed because they read this and get the feeling that well, I really can't do anything because I am going to be looked upon as the bad guy and they the person with some difference other than what you have.

How odd that some people only harrass femmes, yet don't try this kind of assertiveness with butches or guys in this community. THAT says a lot to ME.... Cause why pick on the feminine and femme women why not cross those boundaries with the butches and guys? Makes me go hmm...


In addition:

There's a reason survivors of abuse kept their mouths shut, it just hit me
we do it because we are shamed and treated like we did something wrong.
Pretty fucked up

[JustBeingMe]

I am a HUGE FAN of the Infamous IGGY BUTTON!! It works well and keeps me from acting like an idiot engaging in drama online. I just hate drama!! I want no part of it from ANYONE, abled or differently abled for that matter.

Signed,
IGGY USER

[Apocalipstic]

Welcome back SuperFemme! xoxoxoxoxoxoxxo

I think this has been a great thread to open up a dialog on this important subject.

On the subject of form letter answers or emails from the Mods, I have received emails from mods that I thought were form emails too. However after discussing with June and really thinking about how many emails the Mods and owners have to send out, I suspect that they have a set answer (in their heads) to things, that is very professional and to the point and does, to someone who processes a little differently like me or Belle, look like a form letter.

I don't think anyone is saying that you need to be treated differently, just that someone AS or Autistic processes completely differently, and after a life of being told we are stupid and lazy and all sorts of things for not conforming to everyone else there often is an anger issue when we are asked to change that, if taken into account early in the interaction, can keep things from escalating into a big angry mess where people say a bunch of stuff they don't really mean in anger.

No one is saying that abusing and stalking should be allowed.

I think it is awesome that we have you to go to in cases where someone feels misunderstood. Is there a possibility that June or Medusa could serve as back up Ambassador in cases where you might need a day off? I am not the best at communicating, but I could even help contact June or Medusa or whomever you think would be good.

Hope you feel better!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wouldn't the Ambassador's back ups be the Moderators or Admins?

Curious.

[adorable]

I am fully aware I am a community member that is not a *sweetheart* and what I mean by that is I don't post all sugary and sweet nor do I add any form of glitter be it verbal or visual. Am I a sweet heart at all? Most likely to those I love and care for and those who I have spent some kind of invested time with. I find it funny in the ironic funny ha ha kind of way that if I had been a more *sweet* kind of posting femme the stories would be different.

I read popcorn as responding to Voltaine's post. I may be wrong about that.

The outrage would be different and this thread may have continued with it's intent. *I* am feeling this because when I read that if you are DA and NT and there is some form of inappropriate behaviours the NT persons experience is dismissed.


The outrage at what? We aren't talking specifics.

No means NO..

100% correct IMO. People have said so and agreed with abuse and physical safety being a serious concern.

It's universal, nowhere in this world can you scream out no to someone who is crossing a line (regardless of how small that line is) and then the person screaming no will be looked upon as being wrong, lacking empathy and for the shame having someone wag their finger at them for putting themselves in that situation or for not just walking away.

I am in awe at this very thought.

The world regardless of our capacities has rules, NO

STOP

LEAVE ME ALONE

are things we are ALL taught to respect. I was at least in a few languages.

I can't wrap my head around the whole some people you can tell no to and they don't have to listen to you thinking.

I can't wrap my mind around the whole if you type like this and smile and spread sunshine :cheerleader::loveletter: and some :fireworks: you are valued more vs the
people who tend not to be so sweet and are a lil more brutal. I call that double standards.

I'm not sure that is what is being said.

That's just me though, and while fully aware that this is an image I live with, and am fine with I still gotta say it's gross to watch the value according to who is more important and who is not.

When someone gets told over and over and over and it's handled by the person, by mods, by the leaders of the community and they still choose to not heed those warnings should they be given a special pass to say whatever they want at any given time?

I didn't think that was the discussion everyone was having.

If yes why?

Why can't everyone have that pass?

How uncomfortable for the people who aren't as assertive as some of us, who will get their boundaries crossed because they read this and get the feeling that well, I really can't do anything because I am going to be looked upon as the bad guy and they the person with some difference other than what you have.

Are people who are not as assertive as the rest of us given a pass to not have to take care of themselves?

How odd that some people only harrass femmes, yet don't try this kind of assertiveness with butches or guys in this community. THAT says a lot to ME.... Cause why pick on the feminine and femme women why not cross those boundaries with the butches and guys? Makes me go hmm...

But we aren't talking about specific situations. That isn't the purpose of this thread.


In addition:

There's a reason survivors of abuse kept their mouths shut, it just hit me
we do it because we are shamed and treated like we did something wrong.
Pretty fucked up



Who shamed who or treated you like you did something wrong? Is it possible that posts are being taken personally when that isn't intended? I tend to be direct, and if I have something I say I say to the person I want to say it to. That for me is seperate then having a discussion on what I think is an important topic that SF wanted people to discuss.




We can't talk about you and not talk about you at the same time. If this thread isn't about a specific person or situation then the discussion can continue it would seem to me. If we are going to make it about a specific person and situation then that is kind of weird since SF has already made it clear it is NOT. But the going back and forth thing is confusing me.

[Apocalipstic]

I am fully aware I am a community member that is not a *sweetheart* and what I mean by that is I don't post all sugary and sweet nor do I add any form of glitter be it verbal or visual. Am I a sweet heart at all? Most likely to those I love and care for and those who I have spent some kind of invested time with. I find it funny in the ironic funny ha ha kind of way that if I had been a more *sweet* kind of posting femme the stories would be different.

The outrage would be different and this thread may have continued with it's intent. *I* am feeling this because when I read that if you are DA and NT and there is some form of inappropriate behaviours the NT persons experience is dismissed.

No means NO..

It's universal, nowhere in this world can you scream out no to someone who is crossing a line (regardless of how small that line is) and then the person screaming no will be looked upon as being wrong, lacking empathy and for the shame having someone wag their finger at them for putting themselves in that situation or for not just walking away.

I am in awe at this very thought.

The world regardless of our capacities has rules, NO

STOP

LEAVE ME ALONE

are things we are ALL taught to respect. I was at least in a few languages.

I can't wrap my head around the whole some people you can tell no to and they don't have to listen to you thinking.

I can't wrap my mind around the whole if you type like this and smile and spread sunshine :cheerleader::loveletter: and some :fireworks: you are valued more vs the
people who tend not to be so sweet and are a lil more brutal. I call that double standards. That's just me though, and while fully aware that this is an image I live with, and am fine with I still gotta say it's gross to watch the value according to who is more important and who is not.

When someone gets told over and over and over and it's handled by the person, by mods, by the leaders of the community and they still choose to not heed those warnings should they be given a special pass to say whatever they want at any given time?

If yes why?

Why can't everyone have that pass?

How uncomfortable for the people who aren't as assertive as some of us, who will get their boundaries crossed because they read this and get the feeling that well, I really can't do anything because I am going to be looked upon as the bad guy and they the person with some difference other than what you have.

How odd that some people only harrass femmes, yet don't try this kind of assertiveness with butches or guys in this community. THAT says a lot to ME.... Cause why pick on the feminine and femme women why not cross those boundaries with the butches and guys? Makes me go hmm...


In addition:

There's a reason survivors of abuse kept their mouths shut, it just hit me
we do it because we are shamed and treated like we did something wrong.
Pretty fucked up








Seriously, we are not saying you need to put up with anything or be abused. Just that people communicate differently and that in some cases for many of us the ignore is useful or that maybe people with special communications needs could have a buddy they run their posts through before they post.

Some of your posts can seem inflamatory at times and so can mine, but we know each other in person and know what intent is behind the posts for the most part...or I hope so :) Not everyone has this honor.

In a situation where both parties have been abused and are filled with anger, things can escalate to a point where things are said in anger that no one means and these situations could be avoided in the first place with some intervention....I agree that if you do not know the person it is impossible to tell if they are in fact a threat or just talking smack and we should err on the side of caution.

Now, I have said over and over that there are some people who are likely not able to make these distinctions and who refuse to use the ignore button or ask for moderation or for a friend to vet their posts. If over time outs and discussions nothing seems to help, at some point the owners and mods are going to have to make a big decision, is the person worth helping or not.

My opinion? We have people of both types here and sadly someone is going to have to make the decision of how much is too much.

[Apocalipstic]

Wouldn't the Ambassador's back ups be the Moderators or Admins?

Curious.


I would think so, but it might help to have a specific person who understands the issue. :)

Not trying to be an ass.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I would think so, but it might help to have a specific person who understands the issue. :)

Not trying to be an ass.

Please help me understand

We have SF the Ambassador

then the rest of the Mods

which leads to the Site Owners

How are all these people not understanding the issues?

I am confused

[Apocalipstic]

Please help me understand

We have SF the Ambassador

then the rest of the Mods

which leads to the Site Owners

How are all these people not understanding the issues?

I am confused

Say SF is unable to use the computer. Maybe someone with special issues might feel more comfortable going to the same mod who maybe is the one who looks over the mental health threads or is familiar with special needs issues.

Nothing against SF, she is wonderful and I am so thankful for her! She can't be around 24/7, no one can.

Does that make more sense?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Say SF is unable to use the computer. Maybe someone with special issues might feel more comfortable going to the same mod who maybe is the one who looks over the mental health threads or is familiar with special needs issues.

Nothing against SF, she is wonderful and I am so thankful for her! She can't be around 24/7, no one can.

Does that make more sense?


I would assume if SF needed a day or two off the Mods have it handled as well as the Owners.. I am assuming here though. I mean Mods take days off and we ALL still have to act with common courtesy.

*shrugs*

I think SF does a great job and a lot for her community hell I gotta give her mad props for doing it considering everything that is going on.

[SuperFemme]

Say SF is unable to use the computer. Maybe someone with special issues might feel more comfortable going to the same mod who maybe is the one who looks over the mental health threads or is familiar with special needs issues.

Nothing against SF, she is wonderful and I am so thankful for her! She can't be around 24/7, no one can.

Does that make more sense?

If I am not able to perform my "duties" as DA Ambassador, there will always be someone filling in.

Really, before you try to change the structure let's see more people who need a liason engage with me as such. Right now, other than this thread not one person has pm'd me for assistance.

So if that changes and it needs to be a 24/7 thing, I'm sure the Admins will restructure.

I'd also like to add that in the capacity of DA Ambassador I am ALL about working to accommodate whomever is DA that needs help. Who I sleep with, hang with and play with have the same rules as the rest of us. As a mother of 4 I can assure you that I am able to be fair and compassionate without ever taking sides. Were I not the children would have killed each other years ago.

[Apocalipstic]

I would assume if SF needed a day or two off the Mods have it handled as well as the Owners.. I am assuming here though. I mean Mods take days off and we ALL still have to act with common courtesy.

*shrugs*

I think SF does a great job and a lot for her community hell I gotta give her mad props for doing it considering everything that is going on.

If I am not able to perform my "duties" as DA Ambassador, there will always be someone filling in.

Really, before you try to change the structure let's see more people who need a liason engage with me as such. Right now, other than this thread not one person has pm'd me for assistance.

So if that changes and it needs to be a 24/7 thing, I'm sure the Admins will restructure.

I'd also like to add that in the capacity of DA Ambassador I am ALL about working to accommodate whomever is DA that needs help. Who I sleep with, hang with and play with have the same rules as the rest of us. As a mother of 4 I can assure you that I am able to be fair and compassionate without ever taking sides. Were I not the children would have killed each other years ago.

OK, let's step back.

I am NOT trying to change the structure, I just thought it might make some people who think they can't contact the moderators directly about an issue feel more comfortable if SF is out.

I sincerely until yesterday did not know it was OK for me to contact a mod directly if I did not agree with them, I bet a bunch of people think that too and are afraid to say.

That is all.

If it is not possible, no problem.

Of course mad props to SF! :rrose::rrose::rrose::rrose:

and to the owners and to all the mods!

[SuperFemme]

OK, let's step back.

I am NOT trying to change the structure, I just thought it might make some people who think they can't contact the moderators directly about an issue feel more comfortable if SF is out.

That is all.

If it is not possible, no problem. Was trying to be helpful, I will stop.

Of course mad props to SF! :rrose::rrose::rrose::rrose:

and to the owners and to all the mods!

I hear you Jen.

It's not that it is not possible, it is that at the moment it is not necessary.

If somebody doesn't feel good about coming to me for ANY reason I can assure you that ALL of the mod's are fabulous and fair. It is fine to skip me and go right to them any time needed.

My only concern is making sure that all of our DA'd members have a voice. That nobody is treated unfairly because of a DA, and to be a fellow DA'd member always available for questions, concerns, advice and assistance in any capacity needed.

I've always got my eye out for any signs whatsoever of unfair treatment of our portion of the population. :rrose:

[Apocalipstic]

If I am not able to perform my "duties" as DA Ambassador, there will always be someone filling in.

Really, before you try to change the structure let's see more people who need a liason engage with me as such. Right now, other than this thread not one person has pm'd me for assistance.

So if that changes and it needs to be a 24/7 thing, I'm sure the Admins will restructure.

I'd also like to add that in the capacity of DA Ambassador I am ALL about working to accommodate whomever is DA that needs help. Who I sleep with, hang with and play with have the same rules as the rest of us. As a mother of 4 I can assure you that I am able to be fair and compassionate without ever taking sides. Were I not the children would have killed each other years ago.


Maybe this thread will help people know that they can contact you for assistance if they need it! :)

That it is OK to feel misunderstood and that you guys are here to help.

Just like many people are afraid of the police and won't go to them with problems, so mentally ill and some DA people fear auhority figures too. They need to know that you are here to help, like you help me all the time. :)

[JustBeingMe]

I have to say that June is completely right. I have had several interactions since I joined, with mods, for whatever reasons we needed to, and they were NOT form types, they were typing LIVE to me. The mods and admins here are very compassionate and try their best to resolve things in the best manner possible. I am grateful for them doing so. On other sites, it's just hit you and run. No discussion with you at all. Your presumed guilty and judged without any interactions with them. Its really sad too.
I am Glad we have the mods and admins we do and that they are compassionate.
Thank you June.
Signed,
Me.

[Apocalipstic]

Apoc and Snow -

This is not an issue either of you need to be hashing out in the thread. Apoc, if you have questions, please direct them to the Admins and/or Mods according to your comfort level. Snow, same deal. I am not reading Jen as questioning SF's ability to do this work at all. I am seeing her being concerned for how the process works, and that's up to us to decide.

So - Let's get things back on track in here, shall we? I believe it's supposed to be about talking about if people get a pass or not based on being differently abled.

If this thread continues to escalate - And yeah, I'm not clueless, I see the jabs going on, I am going to come back in here and start moderating and calling out the behaviors specifically, and I don't really have time to do that today, but I will.

If you've got nothing constructive to say about The Mythical Pass, then go find something else to do and stop making it so damn personal.

June - Moderator Voice


Thank you June! Point taken!

[JustBeingMe]

I believe SuperFemme would make a great Ambassador for the Differently Abled. Thank you for starting this thread, SF, and making it a place for much needed discussion. I too am disabled, and have ptsd, anxiety and depression, which can sometimes have an effect upon me how I read posts or reply to them in heated discussions. So, I have forced myself to use the iggy button to keep me from interacting the wrong way. I also have strong values and those are unbendable and I don't see the grey areas well enough at times, and that also causes me to react strongly over things too. So, I use the iggy button when I get to the point of being sucked into drama online. I have to. I can't handle any kind of drama in real time or online. It becomes way too much for me and sets off my issues like ptsd, and my anxiety and sometimes it deepens my depression.
ok I'll stop rattling my mind.
But seriously, Thanks SF for stepping up to the plate for us.
B.

[SuperFemme]

Thanks Jen.

I think this conversation has been a great learning experience.

I know that *I* am learning a lot about how people with DA's and without approach this space.

I know that we are a great bunch of people, and it seems to me that the over all consensus is that we as humans want to be fair to everyone.

I think we have a patchwork "buddy system" already in place. By that I mean that those of us who interact with and are friends with each other keep an eye on each other. We look out for each other and let each other know when something we post might be "iffy".

If we keep doing that and all have an open mind, then we are all going to be in good shape I think.

I know that I always want to know when what I post and what is being heard is so disproportionate that my intent has been completely lost.

Not in a finger wagging way, but in a kind compassionate way.

That is something we should ALL do for each other, not just the DA'd people.

I know that we have amazing moderators here, who really work hard to be fair and equitable when dealing with people on a very personal and individual level.

We all have the obligation to each other to ensure that our community is safe. For everyone.

I do hope that anybody that needs help with any kind of DA issue will keep in mind that this site is dedicated to making it as inclusive for Differently abled members as it is to every other cross section of our community.

I am always available for assistance, questions or issues should anyone need help.

I know that The Planet goes out of it's way to be fair, even more so with our DA population. Please keep in mind that most of us are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

[Apocalipstic]

Thanks Jen.

I think this conversation has been a great learning experience.

I know that *I* am learning a lot about how people with DA's and without approach this space.

I know that we are a great bunch of people, and it seems to me that the over all consensus is that we as humans want to be fair to everyone.

I think we have a patchwork "buddy system" already in place. By that I mean that those of us who interact with and are friends with each other keep an eye on each other. We look out for each other and let each other know when something we post might be "iffy".

If we keep doing that and all have an open mind, then we are all going to be in good shape I think.

I know that I always want to know when what I post and what is being heard is so disproportionate that my intent has been completely lost.

Not in a finger wagging way, but in a kind compassionate way.

That is something we should ALL do for each other, not just the DA'd people.

I know that we have amazing moderators here, who really work hard to be fair and equitable when dealing with people on a very personal and individual level.

We all have the obligation to each other to ensure that our community is safe. For everyone.

I do hope that anybody that needs help with any kind of DA issue will keep in mind that this site is dedicated to making it as inclusive for Differently abled members as it is to every other cross section of our community.

I am always available for assistance, questions or issues should anyone need help.

I know that The Planet goes out of it's way to be fair, even more so with our DA population. Please keep in mind that most of us are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

Thank You, the Mods and Owners for all you do! This is indeed a wonderful website. :)

I sincerely do not know what the answer is for those who can't take no for an answer, I wish I did. I think we do give passes for reasons of compassion and humanity and I am glad for that, but understand that at some point, tough decisions have to be made and it is heartening to see that these decisions are not made lightly.

I have learned so much here too, from all angles, and bottom line, no one should have to be afraid here.

You know, I haver never been a believer in the report button, it felt like telling on people or being Big Brotherish, but this thread has taught me that when we see something starting to go wrong through miscommunication, reporting is the right thing to do. Maybe then escalated angry situations can be avoided.

Thank you all for the thread and your interaction.

:rrose:

[Apocalipstic]

Also, I want to apologize to anyone who felt like I was taking jabs at them, that was not my intent.

Snow, you should never have to feel afraid on BFP and when the TOS are violated, action does need to be taken. I hope you know if you ever need to call on me for help I am here. I can't kick ass like I used to, but I can help in other ways. :)

Mods, so sorry that I took your excellent writing skills for possibly being form letters. :)

SuperFemme, so sorry for making you think that I don't think you are capable of doing your job and for not thanking you often enough. :rrose:

Report button, my apologies for not understanding how you can be used for good.

June, so sorry you had to come in here and semi moderate us.

Violaine. :rrose:


xoxoxoxxo

Jen

[AtLast]

Thanks Jen.

I think this conversation has been a great learning experience.

I know that *I* am learning a lot about how people with DA's and without approach this space.

I know that we are a great bunch of people, and it seems to me that the over all consensus is that we as humans want to be fair to everyone.

I think we have a patchwork "buddy system" already in place. By that I mean that those of us who interact with and are friends with each other keep an eye on each other. We look out for each other and let each other know when something we post might be "iffy".

If we keep doing that and all have an open mind, then we are all going to be in good shape I think.

I know that I always want to know when what I post and what is being heard is so disproportionate that my intent has been completely lost.

Not in a finger wagging way, but in a kind compassionate way.

That is something we should ALL do for each other, not just the DA'd people.

I know that we have amazing moderators here, who really work hard to be fair and equitable when dealing with people on a very personal and individual level.

We all have the obligation to each other to ensure that our community is safe. For everyone.

I do hope that anybody that needs help with any kind of DA issue will keep in mind that this site is dedicated to making it as inclusive for Differently abled members as it is to every other cross section of our community.

I am always available for assistance, questions or issues should anyone need help.

I know that The Planet goes out of it's way to be fair, even more so with our DA population. Please keep in mind that most of us are not privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

I so agree with your last statement. Even though, I know it is hard sometimes- we are quite a group of members- very diverse! And we each have our points of passion!

Something I have felt about the Planet since joining is that it does have a higher level of understanding and fairness for DA members. There is a sensitivity around this that I do see and feel. Sure, I have been taken to task and reprimanded, but, I do think this is a space in which fairness is practiced via the admin and mods. I don't recall (but it could have happened) seeing as much attention (and trying to understand) on the old site about communication in relationship to being DA. And DA in many different ways.

I have read quite a few posts by admin stating they are looking into things that they have been asked about in terms of the TOS. And they make changes accordingly if they find a need to. I'm sure that mods are involved in these processes, which is a positive thing.

This thread has been hard, but, also really helpful to me. I hope it is one that gets bumped from time to time with new information getting posted. I know that for me, dealing with chronic pain and mobility issues can lead to my just being impatient. If I have to take heavy duty pain meds for a period of time, I know I see the world differently. It is always good for me to be aware of this.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;153533]
Violane, I've never seen you in the role of a victim. Ever. I hear what you are saying about somebody being nasty and saying they are good friends with certain people and wishing you "luck". That is outright shitty behavior, and not tolerated here.

it happened already, and i'm not talking about the dash site, SuperFemme.

I think it's important to separate what happened at the dash site with the set up here. Because the two things are light years apart.

I also want to put out there that is anybody with a different ability is having an issue (be it with the mods or other members) that you can pm me. As the DA Ambassador here it is my job to make sure that the DA members are treated fairly. If anyone feels like that is NOT happening, please contact me and I can act as a mediator if necessary, or point you in the right direction.

with all due respect, SuperFemme- i cannot see that happening!

thank you for the offer - but part of what i was trying to communicate in this thread, and from what i've personally seen/experienced, makes it nearly comical to me, on one hand, and the very last thing i'd conceive of doing- contacting you for help.

i'm not writing this to read abrasively to you. there is absolutely no negative 'tone' attached. it is not good - it is not bad, it 'just is'. i'm not an island, and do appreciate sound help when i need it, and am far from being afraid to ask for it- but i would prefer that questions not even need to go through several other people or avenues.

just treated fairly- as everyone else on initial try.

best,
belle

[SuperFemme]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;153533]
Violane, I've never seen you in the role of a victim. Ever. I hear what you are saying about somebody being nasty and saying they are good friends with certain people and wishing you "luck". That is outright shitty behavior, and not tolerated here.

it happened already, and i'm not talking about the dash site, SuperFemme.

I think it's important to separate what happened at the dash site with the set up here. Because the two things are light years apart.

I also want to put out there that is anybody with a different ability is having an issue (be it with the mods or other members) that you can pm me. As the DA Ambassador here it is my job to make sure that the DA members are treated fairly. If anyone feels like that is NOT happening, please contact me and I can act as a mediator if necessary, or point you in the right direction.

with all due respect, SuperFemme- i cannot see that happening!

thank you for the offer - but part of what i was trying to communicate in this thread, and from what i've personally seen/experienced, makes it nearly comical to me, on one hand, and the very last thing i'd conceive of doing- contacting you for help.

i'm not writing this to read abrasively to you. there is absolutely no negative 'tone' attached. it is not good - it is not bad, it 'just is'. i'm not an island, and do appreciate sound help when i need it, and am far from being afraid to ask for it- but i would prefer that questions not even need to go through several other people or avenues.

just treated fairly- as everyone else on initial try.

best,
belle













Violane,

I'm not offended in the least. I am but one tool available. I do hope that you go to the mods with anyone harassing you.

Nobody here deserves to be harassed in any medium, and I am sure that the help is there to address that if you choose to seek it. :praying:

[adorable]

[QUOTE=popcorninthesofa;153481]I've seen some folks that are usually sweethearts here, get timed out because they had a beef about another member, groups of members, or a topic. I think that special care should be given to these members via a private message in an understanding way, along with a warning, rather than a moderator only giving a warning once or twice in the forum.

some people are given private messages for reported posts/other issues via a PM 'warning'. i'm not sure how 'understanding' the message can be read, because i think, they might be kind of a form letter/general-type reminder. i've received a couple of them over the years, [whether or not i agreed with the 'warnings' i chose to not 'dispute' the issued warnings] because i have observed interactions over the years, and learned some interesting and valuable differences between NT-AT processing, and how it presents online in certain areas.

with regard to warning letters issued, 'fairness' for the NT-AT 'set up' - i.e., the big picture, can be rather complex! in my case, sure, the warning was right/true- in part! it takes two for me to even get to that point, and yes, i take responsibility for my own 'actions'. i know that i am not as savvy in some areas, nor do i have any interest in setting someone up to 'get caught' or 'fail'. the report button has only been hit by me once elsewhere.

so, whenever i hear things from offending person- claims: to be good friends with certain people, wishing me luck with any of my own 'reporting', and on and on- this is the kind of complicated arena that someone like me, on the spectrum, cannot NAVIGATE. by the time it comes for this AT to try and compose a thought out letter to any [and which??] moderator, situation is so layered/twisted and i am so worn out, that the only thing clear, and what very well may have been seen clearly- was indeed my fuck up, because i wrote very straightforwardly, in my way, to offending person.

a friend of mine said the only people who would understand what i'm trying to convey would be those who are on the spectrum. is this true? if so, then the majority sees me right now claiming 'victim' role? that is simply not my truth. opportunities to see a depth can get blown away when many other pieces/parts contributing to larger issues are there, but "if" people only remain in the black and white, or listen to people online who listen to other people online, and maintain 'oh, she's just playing a Victim again' how does this help for future issues involving NT-AT interactions and very different processing? i could imagine the people who are moderators turning grey overnight from handling such issues!

I am not sure why but I don't have a ton of trouble understanding people who have Aspergers in general and I never have trouble reading you. I am not sure if it's because I know certain people have it so I read them differently because of it.

I hope that you and anyone else that has this could answer a some questions that I have been wondering since I read your post.

I wondered if online forums are more difficult for you personally to navigate more then face to face interactions?

And this may seem to be a dumb question, I know more about autism itself, but are there degrees of Aspergers like there is with autism? And since I am asking questions...is it in posting that you have the most trouble? I'm not sure if I worded that right. What I mean is do you tend to read your posts and think you are being clear, even when people may be saying that you are not being clear?

Do you ever find that people repeat themselves to you? But that you feel like you are clear on what they mean? Yet, they are not clear that you are understanding what they mean? That may have just confused ME. I hope that makes sense, I know what I'm trying to say I just may not have the right words.

Are there ways of communicating that help you? I know that my boifriend has dyslexia and that if I keep my sentences shorter and not bunch them together in a paragraph it makes it easier for hym to read. Is there a way to write to make anything easier if you have Aspergers?

I'm just wondering, thank you for posting! :)

[Ursy]

I wondered if online forums are more difficult for you personally to navigate more then face to face interactions?


I actually find online forums much easier to negotiate as an Aspie. I think that this medium can often be well suited to people on the spectrum, because in many ways it levels the playing field. In physical interactions, I can have trouble with body language, reading facial expression, tone of voice and intent (it depends on the day as well). These things are absent from the online world, so aren't there to confuse me. In some ways the absence of these markers does make it more difficult (as it does for most of us, and I do glean some information from these things), but in other ways it makes it much easier.



And this may seem to be a dumb question, I know more about autism itself, but are there degrees of Aspergers like there is with autism? And since I am asking questions...is it in posting that you have the most trouble? I'm not sure if I worded that right. What I mean is do you tend to read your posts and think you are being clear, even when people may be saying that you are not being clear?


Sure there are degrees - it's all part of the autistic spectrum. Some will say that there is actually no difference between Asperger's and high functioning autism. (Others will argue that there are marked differences between the two) I don't really have much of an opinion either way, I think it's a matter of semantics.

Posting, for me, is actually much easier than verbal communication, because I can take my time, re-read things (both my stuff and the other person's), and don't get as confused (hopefully). I also have an auditory processing problem which makes processing verbal communication problematic, particularly if there is background noise. As for clarity, I think I come across best in text, definitely. But there is such huge variation between people on the spectrum, I can only speak about my own experience as an Aspie.



Do you ever find that people repeat themselves to you? But that you feel like you are clear on what they mean? Yet, they are not clear that you are understanding what they mean? That may have just confused ME. I hope that makes sense, I know what I'm trying to say I just may not have the right words.



Lol...yes, very occasionally. However, I've learned to mask a lot of my Aspieness so that most people are surprised to learn that I'm on the spectrum. I just come across as slightly quirky and "artistic", apparently. Oh, and sometimes standoffish - if feeling out of my element, which is often.

So to answer your question (because I don't think I really addressed it properly), it's more likely that people will carry on oblivious that I have NOT caught all of something, because I don't want to keep asking them to repeat themselves, and explain my differences all the time. I kinda feel like pointing out that I have these "differences" is asking for a pass... and I don't mean it that way, but that's how it's so often interpreted... so I avoid it.

edit: My reason would be more as a way of explaining *why* I'm not following the conversation, rather than asking for a pass, so that they don't interpret me as stupid or disinterested.

I really hate being interpreted as stupid, because I'm not - I'm in the 99.9th percentile on a couple of scales. It's just that honestly, you would never, ever know it. ESPECIALLY if you met me in real life. And on the flip side, my social intelligence can be pretty low on a few points. As I said before, it really depends on whether I'm having a good day or a bad day.

Hope that makes sense :)

[Soft*Silver]

Ijust want to throw my two cents in...

I have been a member of three BF sites to date.

This is the only site where I think the moderators are fair and consistent. On other sites, as someone said, you were basically blindsided by the decisions made. Here, there is a gentleness to the process. It actually diffuses the momentum when a moderator steps in and says "hey, lets calm it down"

I know all too well that I am easy to escalate. It comes from having PTSD. No need to go into why I have it but I do. So, I appreciate it when a neutral person can calmly intervene. It was not like this on the other two sites.

[AtLast]

Ijust want to throw my two cents in...

I have been a member of three BF sites to date.

This is the only site where I think the moderators are fair and consistent. On other sites, as someone said, you were basically blindsided by the decisions made. Here, there is a gentleness to the process. It actually diffuses the momentum when a moderator steps in and says "hey, lets calm it down"

I know all too well that I am easy to escalate. It comes from having PTSD. No need to go into why I have it but I do. So, I appreciate it when a neutral person can calmly intervene. It was not like this on the other two sites.




Yup.. I can see this with just awareness here about just about any form of DA. I hadn't thought too much about being someone with PTSD that led to agoraphobia and the posting on a website. I mainly have difficulty with this in real-time (startle response, mostly when confronted with anything that similar to my initial trauma trigger). It has been a long time since I recovered from the agoraphobia, but can still have certain situations come up in real-time that strike at past ways of dealing with anxiety and wanting to retreat to what is familiar and safe.! Especially when something happens that is like the early life trauma that happened. Yikes, all those years ago!!

I am thinking more about what you are saying here to gain some insight in terms of possible reactions stemming from posts on the site (for me). We do cover a lot of heavy stuff here and I know at times, my history does get kicked into focus when interacting on threads. Does for everyone.

I have always been so good at compartmentalizing to just survive and do what I need to do to make a living, be a parent, be a partner in the past, deal with the end of life for a partner, take care of a mentally disabled sibling and an aging parent. I can put up a field of coping mechanisms so that I can just do what just has to get done. I do this with chronic pain, too. And although, I really have been a recovering agoraphobic for a long time now, not wanting to slip backwards does come up. Hell, life is pretty stressful sometimes and we all have stuff we deal with.

Thanks, this post gives me pause. And that is a good thing as I know I can get upset around certain issues and begin to feel vulnerable. That is when I can really put on a mask that I bet seems impenetrable. Having to be the therapist and care-taker for so long was a way to remain guarded even when doing work (therapy for myself) around all of this.

Hummm… and one usually develops agoraphobia as a means to stay safe, stay in familiar surroundings. Stay clear of anything that can bring on shear panic or what happened in the first place to traumatize someone. it’s a way able to avoid the initial trauma and anything that is similar. So, guess it makes a lot of sense to feel this way.

This really is a great thread!! Lots of smart peeps!

[Soft*Silver]

I relate to what you said here. I know I can put on a mask too when I am feeling vulnerable, but I bet my mask is harsher than yours. Mine is a sullen, angry, snarling mask. I wasnt the caretaker. I was the scapegoat and so now when I am being blamed for things I didnt do or mean, I do what I did as a child, fight back for survival. My sister was the caretaker..and she wanted peace at any cost, so now she has ulcers. My brother was the Invisible Boy, always staying out of the way so he would never be the target. Problem was, it also meant he never felt loved or cared for. He committed suicide.

sometimes people dont realize what they are doing to others on this site. And nor should they. They arent therapists. But I love the saying someone had as their sig line..."be kind to everyone for they all deal with some kind of harship" (or something like that). I know I have been called on the carpet more than once for not giving people notice about some posts that were horrific to traumazied folks. I try to be much more sensitive about that now. After working in my field for so long, and after the aftermath of my brother's suicide, I have developed a rather calloused skin over things that would make most people gag. And, while I own I can be insensitive about this unknowingly, those who unknowingly trigger my PTSD should also know. But I usually dont tell it. Thats the mask> You have hurt me but I wont let you see the hurt because I firmly believe you will use it to hurt me more. I just wont allow that kind of vulnerability.

Good insight, ALH....


AtLastHome wrote:Thanks, this post gives me pause. And that is a good thing as I know I can get upset around certain issues and begin to feel vulnerable. That is when I can really put on a mask that I bet seems impenetrable. Having to be the therapist and care-taker for so long was a way to remain guarded even when doing work (therapy for myself) around all of this

[Ursy]

i want to reiterate AGAIN that giving a pass is not about erasing empathy and compassion. people don't seem to be getting that message....

a "pass" is a different set of rules for DA people and a complete lack of personal responsibility.


Oh yeah, I meant to say something about this because it keeps getting buried in other concepts (which are also really important, but what you said above is specifically what this thread is about).

I totally agree - I know I said in my first post that I give everybody passes, DA or not, but having thought about it - under that definition, they aren't passes.

While we seem to be talking all around the subject, but not specifically addressing it, I actually think that most of us are in agreement that being differently abled should not entitle anyone to a pass - i.e. being DA shouldn't absolve them from taking responsibility for their own behaviour (but only according to each person's capacity).

I think the crux of the issue is that there is a whole bunch of societal baggage that informs people what an appropriate response to DA ought to be.

A lot of it is well meaning, but in the end there is a huge grey area between giving a person compassion and understanding because of X, and not holding a person accountable because of X, and where A will see one, B sees the other.. . and it's not always clear-cut who is right.

I believe that this is where the conversation is falling down.

[SuperFemme]

Oh yeah, I meant to say something about this because it keeps getting buried in other concepts (which are also really important, but what you said above is specifically what this thread is about).

I totally agree - I know I said in my first post that I give everybody passes, DA or not, but having thought about it - under that definition, they aren't passes.

While we seem to be talking all around the subject, but not specifically addressing it, I actually think that most of us are in agreement that being differently abled should not entitle anyone to a pass - i.e. being DA shouldn't absolve them from taking responsibility for their own behaviour (but only according to each person's capacity).

I think the crux of the issue is that there is a whole bunch of societal baggage that informs people what an appropriate response to DA ought to be.

A lot of it is well meaning, but in the end there is a huge grey area between giving a person compassion and understanding because of X, and not holding a person accountable because of X, and where A will see one, B sees the other.. . and it's not always clear-cut who is right.

I believe that this is where the conversation is falling down.

Thank you so much for this post. You completely understand what I wanted this thread to be about, and while it has been important to look at all views I worry that the intent has gotten lost.

So I am glad to see that it has not.

I in no way meant to imply that the level of empathy, compassion, and understanding that we treat others with should fall by the wayside. I am in no way saying that the moderators and admins do not give individual consideration on a case by case basis. That means that when there is any kind of issue involving a DA'd person they are going to go above and beyond to be aware of the issues specific to that DA'd person.

I think we all have personal attachments to this, and the lenses we are viewing it through are multiple.

I not only get that, I totally respect it.

I also want people to be aware that The Planet is committed to this community being accessible to differently abled people. That commitment includes going an extra mile (or ten) when dealing with issues that might come up. It means that behind the scenes, there are usually several attempts at solutions until the right one fits.

I understand that it this is a new and different thing within an online b/f community, and I would hope that people are able to have faith in what The Planet is all about, and have faith that doors aren't going to be slammed in your face here because you are differently abled and have a unique way of communicating.

I'd also like to stress that if you contact myself or the mods/admins and need help that it is confidential (outside of the aforementioned). If you are differently abled but choose to be private about it to the community at large, please know that if you choose to share that (say you need assistance or whatever) your information will always remain private.

[Leigh]

I want to thank everyone who has posted here so far, your insight and thoughts have really resonated with Me. I have been on disability for two years now (going on three), for both depression and panic/anxiety attacks. I am the first to admit that I used to expect passes to be given to Me, whether it was for something I said or something I did it was just what I expected. I would often blame being lazy, missing school/work etc on My depression and it just got to the point where if I did or said anything wrong My usual response was that is was My depression acting up.

Even within the last few months I admit that I still looked for people around Me to automatically hand Me a pass, simply because I had gotten used to it. I'm not proud of this, by any means, and am trying My hardest to change because there is no reason to get this so-called "pass". I'm a grown person with no excuse to sail through life expecting that its not only going to be easy, but that I can use being depressed as a cover-up for not taking responsibility for My own actions. Sometimes it takes a thread like this to make a person think about what they are doing in their own lives, and that is what it has done for Me.

I take reading this thread as being that proverbial *kick in the ASS* to get Me to see that things in My life need to change. So thank you to SF and everyone else who contributes to this thread, it takes brave people like all of you to bring such a sensitive subject to the table and share experiences that may not be happy ones but they are beneficial to the discussion ~ keep up the great work everyone :)

[Soft*Silver]

God, I love watching evolution of the soul !!! You go, Braedon!!!

[violaine]

[QUOTE=urs;154186]Oh yeah, I meant to say something about this because it keeps getting buried in other concepts (which are also really important, but what you said above is specifically what this thread is about).

i, too, think other concepts are very important - and sometimes, how i am able to get 'round' to the heart of a matter. in person, it might take me a while to get there, even if some kind of answer is already in my head. this may or may not be amusing to people, and doesn't happen each and every time- but i do/can process at length.

I totally agree - I know I said in my first post that I give everybody passes, DA or not, but having thought about it - under that definition, they aren't passes.

While we seem to be talking all around the subject, but not specifically addressing it, I actually think that most of us are in agreement that being differently abled should not entitle anyone to a pass - i.e. being DA shouldn't absolve them from taking responsibility for their own behaviour (but only according to each person's capacity).

for me, issues surrounding the thread 'subject' are just what may provide tangibility- what has happened/what i already know, i can address from actual experiences. a pass for DA individual, like myself, not taking responsibility doesn't go far communication-wise [for me] because i will accept responsibility sans pass, and in order for me to discuss anyone else DA neglecting to accept responsibility, i have to try to come up with who/what/when/where i've come across that situation.

note: processing usually works out the way i have described, until i read more and something else may click about 'intent'. subtext comes easier for some people on the spectrum, and being literal most times does not apply to every aspergian.

adorable, thank you for asking questions :rrose: about AS. i love forums/research/the net because i do prefer a quiet environment. i love to read, and like ursy wrote, with a computer, i control the environment. no background commotion save NPR or pig chatter [smile].

i get so thrown, i'll admit- about things foreign to my own wiring, that i see here/there, and a lot of it has to do with how quickly people seem to 'read' each other with high emotion/tones - or an agenda- i rarely see 'tones' or agendas, but the outcomes of such conversation.

also, i am not sure that i view this thread as 'falling down' - but that's because i don't mind a less travelled path, and savour the 'getting there' as much as any ah-ha moments. i get an opportunity to see more ways of processing.

[Leigh]

God, I love watching evolution of the soul !!! You go, Braedon!!!



(((((((((((((Softness))))))))))))) You've always been a personal cheerleader of Mine and knowing that I have your support means the world to Me, so thank you :rrose:

I wanted to personally thank those who repped Me with such positive comments for My above post, I know it takes alot of guts for many of us to admit things that we never would have before. Reading this thread really gave Me the push to see that while I may be differently-abled for some reason, My life is much more than My disability. I'm more than depression, I'm more than anxiety ~ I'm a person, a human being with feelings just like everyone else. I dream, I want, I live, I laugh, I love, I hurt, I cry etc ~ I'm no different than anyone else, and if someone treats Me less than good because they have their own stigma's about disabilities (be they mental or physical etc) then I don't need them in their lives.

To those of us who are brave enough to face each day with a smile, and for those of you who love us regardless, I admire every one of you :bowdown:

[SuperFemme]

(((((((((((((Softness))))))))))))) You've always been a personal cheerleader of Mine and knowing that I have your support means the world to Me, so thank you :rrose:

I wanted to personally thank those who repped Me with such positive comments for My above post, I know it takes alot of guts for many of us to admit things that we never would have before. Reading this thread really gave Me the push to see that while I may be differently-abled for some reason, My life is much more than My disability. I'm more than depression, I'm more than anxiety ~ I'm a person, a human being with feelings just like everyone else. I dream, I want, I live, I laugh, I love, I hurt, I cry etc ~ I'm no different than anyone else, and if someone treats Me less than good because they have their own stigma's about disabilities (be they mental or physical etc) then I don't need them in their lives.

To those of us who are brave enough to face each day with a smile, and for those of you who love us regardless, I admire every one of you :bowdown:

Braedon, your posts in this thread are nothing short of amazing. How special of you to share your ah-ha moment.

It is SO hard to put such personal things out there on the web for all to see, and when I chose to do so in regards to my different abilities it was in the hope that I could build bridges to others like me. So the fact that you just got brave and shared these pieces of yourself makes it all worth it.

I love what you said about being more than your disability. You're right, the sum of all your parts is so much deeper than that one piece of your puzzle.

I admire you back, times 100. :rrose:

[AtLast]

Braedon, your posts in this thread are nothing short of amazing. How special of you to share your ah-ha moment.

It is SO hard to put such personal things out there on the web for all to see, and when I chose to do so in regards to my different abilities it was in the hope that I could build bridges to others like me. So the fact that you just got brave and shared these pieces of yourself makes it all worth it.

I love what you said about being more than your disability. You're right, the sum of all your parts is so much deeper than that one piece of your puzzle.

I admire you back, times 100. :rrose:

YES... YES...YES... a zillion YESSES!!!

[Rockinonahigh]

The biggest part of my disablity is my back injury,the rest is my near total deffness with speach probs.Hear lately my back had had more bad days than good..not so much pain but numbness down to the toes that can hit at near anytime.Mostly I get a bit of warning but tonight I went out with friends to the casino,I havent been for ages and really needed a bit of fun,after about an hour I got thes timgling that went to numbness pretty quick so I made excuses and went home..I nearly didnt make it to the car cause the more I walked the worse it got.I dont know what to do anymore and its getting me down.I am seeing an nuro but he wants me to have some pre surgery rehab,we havent desided what kind of surgery its going to bebut what ever im so tired of fighting this.

[Leigh]

Braedon, your posts in this thread are nothing short of amazing. How special of you to share your ah-ha moment.

It is SO hard to put such personal things out there on the web for all to see, and when I chose to do so in regards to my different abilities it was in the hope that I could build bridges to others like me. So the fact that you just got brave and shared these pieces of yourself makes it all worth it.

I love what you said about being more than your disability. You're right, the sum of all your parts is so much deeper than that one piece of your puzzle.

I admire you back, times 100. :rrose:

SF,

I have always admired you, because you've always just been yourself which is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more than just what makes you "differently-abled". I know you've always just been you, but in many ways I look upto you because you personify what it means to be more than your disability; your a wonderful example overcoming adversity to break down the barriers around you and still live life as best as you can. I think your an amazing woman, a wonderful human being and I'm proud to be counted among those who you admire :givingarose:

YES... YES...YES... a zillion YESSES!!!

I"ll add another zillion YESSES to that My friend :D

[JustBeingMe]

I truly have enjoyed reading this thread and all the posts made here. SF I totally get what your saying about being a DA and being treated differently and how that can also be done online as well. I don't give passes to anyone for the reasons you have talked about. I am someone that will call BS on anyone that gives Excuses for their behavior. Each individual IS responsible for their own behavior and how they treat one another online. I do understand that each person with a DA does need compassion and understanding but when they act out badly towards others, yeah, they should be called on it for sure.
I know at times I have read posts and the infighting starts over things, that I just don't get why so much hostility has to be done with one another. I find it hard to understand in my world why sometimes people get so upset over things that seem so little importance to me, but I guess it's either their compassion about a subject, or some kind of personal experience that makes them take jabs at others online. Then you have the S**t starters stirring the pot.
On one site I belonged to, I notice that some femmes were not called on their posts near as much as butches were... on how things were said online in posts. That I didn't get either. {Maybe it was just certain femmes )or maybe certain mods or whatever that didn't say nothing, but the minute I posted something that was taken out of context I got jabbed in the thread for it right off the bat, with no warning that something I said was taken the wrong way or whatever.
So, I am grateful for the mods and admins here for the job they do and for going out of their way to PM members about their posts when things may be taken the wrong way, or said or whatever.
I"m rambling so I'll stop now. My mind is full of anxiety as I type.

[AtLast]

Just read this on another thread.... and it brought some perspective to me.... reminded of how life can turn on a dime and how I need to keep humility in mind.

Dear Butch Femme Community,
I haven't been here very much lately due to life in the fast line. Just want to say how important it is to take care of and be kind to one another at every step of the way.

I am rethinking life on life's terms. I am evaluating why needless sarcasm echo's, winding it's way into my sleep, waking me with that feeling of flight. I am seeing hidden agenda's flash before my eyes, maybe a day, a week or a month late.

I got a wake up call Weds. about how precious our relationships with each other are when a dear friend was having a simple laparoscopy as I read Esquire in the surgical waiting room. I kept calling recovery on her status. She didn't make it to the recovery room. She ended up on a respirator, and was taken directly to ICU. She now is in a coma.

Her out of the area homophobic bio-family does not understand how deeply we miss her and want her to know, to visit her bedside, even if she is in a drug induced coma. Her sister reminds me every time I call her that 'W/we" are not permitted to visit or get any information.

I am not wasting another day on other's hyperbole or tying up the abatross.. I am going to clean out my closet and my life of chaff that weighs heavily on my body and mind. How many sweatshirts and ballcaps can one have from world travels. What nostalgia? The homeless can use the headcover!

[SuperFemme]

Yes, life CAN turn on a dime, can't it?
I wish my life would stay away from dimes.

[waxnrope]

Although difficult for me to post right now (my laptop did not leave the plane with me, and this note sent via phone ... a laborious task, indeed), I wish to come out about my own disability/ies. I have 3 bulging discs in the lore spine. I suspect there exists one or two in my thoracic, or upper spine as well ... I would have to throw a hissy fit to get a mri for confirmation. Anyway, there is the back, and there are major problems with my knees. The latter a developmental problem, which is due to my patellas (kneecaps) being off to the side. Over time, in part because of excessive use ( basketball and dancing ) my disability is now becoming less hidden.

I do not care if I cannot play basketball any longer. I stopped needing to be a jock long ago. But dancing is everything to me. It is a means of multiple expressions ... my physically, spirituality, and sexuality. To dance provides me with opportunities to become part of the music ... to be in the rhythm section or too develop contractually. I do/can not dance as often, but when I cannot stand the absence any longer, I wrap my knees, take some drugs, and boogie ... or, salsa, or waltz, or two step. Or, whatever the genre. Hip-hop, swing. Just go.

And, yeah, Ive passed for decades. But now, with age,it isn't so easy. When I finally have to hang up my two toned shoes, somebody be nice and just shoot my ass.

[Leigh]

Life can turn so easily from good to bad to worse, as AtLast's example shows (and I read that very post earlier too). We never know when our time on earth will end, it could be tomorrow or years from now but we always must make every moment count ~ this thread has shown Me that, and I'm thankful that I have the Planet and the friends on it to show Me these things (especially when I take things for granted which I have for a long time now).

I'm truly blessed :)

[christie]

I'm back from TN and have tried to catch up on the thread. Eight hours in the car gives me quite a bit of time to think!

SF - I saw your note that you felt my posts to Snow were dismissive. I'm sorry you perceived them to be and I thought I included, several times, my intent in an effort to have them NOT be mis-perceived. Additionally, I don't know that I agree that Snow felt they were dismissive, because, in my history, she is very vocal at making it crystal clear if she feels this way and since she had addressed me in a rep note, I would think that she would have included such. I don't want to derail this thread but I did want to address it in the thread since your response to me was not PM'd. If you feel we need to discuss it further, please PM me.

One of the things that came up in my marathon drive/think fest is how I think neuro DA persons might (probably do) find online communities/communication problematic and I think that this is what we are referring to when we talk about the mythical pass.

For me, I have always viewed Bratboy's online interactions as "practice" for his social skills. Its much easier for him to have the anonymity of the keyboard. I daresay that its one of the reasons he has been able to develop such good real-time social skills.

He does, however, have issue with reading tone and intent. He is very literal in his interpretation and always has been. In the same way that one of his issues used to be reading pragmatics of conversation (tone, facial expression, body language), he still has the same issue with tone. I believe that is a good deal of the issues that most of our neuro DA community members experience. I have had several self-identified neuro DA's tell me such. I've yet to come up with a way to assist in navigating this issue, but I keep trying.

In regard to the DA Ambassador role and the hierarchy of Moderators/Administrators, I think its fantastic that Jack and Medusa saw this need and took measures to address it. I like that SF has made public announcements showing her availability.

I do think, however, Belle brings up an issue that I, too, think is problematic in two ways: (1) What if the DA person having an issue doesn't feel a rapport with SF? In following that train of thought, to me, having the hierarchy or next step in the process, what if the DA person doesn't feel comfortable in speaking with a moderator or administrator? These persons, while active, participating community members also have a position of authority and I think something to think about is how that might not feel safe.

(2) Its also been my observation and interpretation that most of the neuro DA's might not see that they even need to ask for assistance. Most of the times when Bratboy has gotten into sticky communication issues, he doesn't see that his behavior is the problem or how what he said/did is offensive/crossing a boundary. How can we, as a community, expect a neuro DA, especially those with communication differences, to have the capacity to know that they need to ask for help? I have issue with expecting a neuro DA person be accountable when they might not have the cognitive ability to look outside of self to see where their part of the issue is the problem.

To both of these points, I would like to see perhaps more public outreach. I feel confident that we can find a way or the words to step into a situation without humiliating (I'm not saying this has happened, but that a neuro DA person might feel as such) or changing the expectation that everyone abide by the TOS.

The reason I include "publicly" is that I think when the issue/offense happens in public and then is dealt with behind the scenes, it reinforces/gives the perception that there is that mythical pass.

Its also why I thought that a peer system of folks who aren't dual-roled as both moderators/position of authority and community members might be a viable supplement to the current process. For instance, Belle might be more comfortable in reaching out to me to ask for clarification of a post rather than having to ask a Moderator, whose role as Moderator is one of "task master". I'm just an equal. I think sometimes, even the NT folks have trouble seeing a Moderator as also a peer - I know I do in spite of the additional efforts the Moderators go to in clarifying from which position they are speaking.

Again, I hope that everyone understands that I am not saying there is anything wrong with, nor am I being unsupportive of the DA Ambassador role/process. I just see how we might be able to supplement it so that we can further dispel the mythical pass perceptions.

[SuperFemme]

I wanted to take a moment to remind everyone that this thread is about ALL differently abled people.

Not just neuro-disabled.

We have so very many types of differently abled people here and I want to make sure that we don't put everyone into a box. Sure, there are those of us who have cognitive issues. But a wheelchair, being hearing impaired, multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, an amputee and the rest of the different abilities all tend to lead to the general public thinking that all of it is cognitive (meaning we are all slow) issues. We find people talking louder, and slower and often times in a tone reserved for three year olds.

First of all, cognitive challenges don't = slow. Secondly, talking to DA'd people with the assumption that all DA = Cognitive really demeans us all as human beings.

This is just a gentle reminder, and not directed at any one person. I get super frustrated at the public perceptions around differently abled people and I want to make sure that this community steers clear of that.

If anyone has any questions please feel free to pm me.

thanks,

adele

[christie]

I wanted to take a moment to remind everyone that this thread is about ALL differently abled people.

Not just neuro-disabled.

We have so very many types of differently abled people here and I want to make sure that we don't put everyone into a box. Sure, there are those of us who have cognitive issues. But a wheelchair, being hearing impaired, multiple sclerosis, cerebral palsy, an amputee and the rest of the different abilities all tend to lead to the general public thinking that all of it is cognitive (meaning we are all slow) issues. We find people talking louder, and slower and often times in a tone reserved for three year olds.

First of all, cognitive challenges don't = slow. Secondly, talking to DA'd people with the assumption that all DA = Cognitive really demeans us all as human beings.

This is just a gentle reminder, and not directed at any one person. I get super frustrated at the public perceptions around differently abled people and I want to make sure that this community steers clear of that.

If anyone has any questions please feel free to pm me.

thanks,

adele

I really want to start a conversation about something near and dear to my heart.

That is the subject of personal responsibility when posting as a differently-abled person. As the Ambassador for such things I think it is an important conversation to have right now.

As some of you know I am differently-abled. I have a severe TBI (traumatic brain injury) as well as some other serious health issues.

What does that mean for *me*? It means that I don't have filters the way normal people do. It means that my frontal temporal lobe was SO damaged that my critical thinking and emotional response mechanisms don't work like yours. It is like using a coffee filter in place of an oil filter maybe. The way that my brain processes and regurgitates is from a very emotional place, and the filtering system that most people have telling them what is okay to say and what is not doesn't work like normal.

I have to live every day very differently than most people in a lot of ways. I have to be reminded to eat, to take medicine, to feed my children, to shower....the list is endless.

I'm getting to the point I promise.

This all means that I have to work a little harder if I want to be a part of society. I have to set alarms, use calendars and rely on the people that love me (truly love me) to keep me on track. Mostly, I have to rely on myself, because at the end of the day it is *me* who has to live with the consequences of not using compensation strategies to fill in for the things that I am lacking.

I have lived this way since July 26, 2003. That is almost exactly 7 years.

For the first three years (while I was in a brain injury rehab program) I really believed that it was the worlds job to understand me. I couldn't understand why I didn't get passes for my ridiculousness because of my head injury.

I now understand that it is my job to the work. That means I don't get a special *Pass* for my different-ability. It is not the worlds fault that I am like this and frankly it is an impossible request that the world compensate for me rather than me compensating for myself.

I don't WANT a pass. I feel angry when I do get one, because it is taking away the day to day work of being Adele that empowers me.

If I act like an asshole, I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".
If I am hurtful to others I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".
If I am racist or sexist or misogynistic I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".
If I am mean spirited and snarky I don't get to say: "I have a head injury".

I instead get to own up to my behaviors. For me, this can mean apologizing, listening (and hearing) when others come to me and say "that was kind of fucked up and heres why", it means writing and re-writing posts, and it means having others check my posts AFTER I've read and re-read what I've written before I hit the submit button.

I am not perfect and I own that there have been plenty of times that I have gotten lazy and complacent. For the most part, I have had to live with the consequences of that. Like Juney un-friending me in Facebook.

So I hope that we as a community can remember that although a person may be differently abled, we are all responsible for our own actions. Head patting and "poor poor baby" responses are diminishing and erasing. I don't know any differently abled person who wants to be pitied.

Pitied would look like me saying anything I want and nobody every caring because poor thing has a head injury.

Accommodated would look like me saying gross things and people calling me out just like anyone else.

Because if somebody got angry with me deservedly that would be a consequence of me not using my compensation strategies. And that needs to happen.

Just because I am differently-abled does not mean that I don't have to live by the same set of rules that the rest of the world does.

When I am babied, coddled, or given leeway that others are not it translates to me that I am indeed challenged and broken beyond repair.

THAT takes away my hope and incentive for living in the world as a human being just like everyone else.

I'd like to have a discussion about this, and hear honest feedback, because I've noticed that sometimes we are given "passes" by our fellow community members (mostly in the spirit of caring/compassion) and I want to talk about how that can or cannot invalidate a differently-abled person.

Thanks.

Adele -

While I appreciate your wanting to be sure that this thread is about all DA persons, I can't help but be just a tad confused at this point.

In your opening post, you specifically wanted to address accountability when posting as a DA person. You went on to speak of your personal experience with TBI, which, to me, falls into neuro-diversity.

I thought that you were wanting to discuss holding DA persons to the same standards in rules and expectations on this site in relation to adhering to the TOS.

While I am sure that physical limitations such as the ones you mention in your last post have bearing and can be related to to a person's state of mind when they post, I don't know how my having a permanent physical disability impacts my posting. I don't know how having a 23% disability of my knee allows me to have the mythical pass you speak of when I am accountable for the words I type - not how long it takes me to navigate going down steps.

I am really not trying to be argumentative and wanted to ask for clarification since my interpretation of your last post seems to conflict with the OP. If the direction of the thread has now changed to talk about how physical disabilities allow DA persons this pass in real-time interactions, so will my participation in this thread.

Thanks,
Christie

[SuperFemme]

Christie I am sorry that this is your perception of what this thread is about.

While I can only speak in absolutes about my own different abilities I am not unable to advocate for all different abilities.

Also, please understand that a bad knee is not a disability. Once you lose all use of that knee, then you cross over into the realm of differently abled.

[Corkey]

I am differently abled and am on meds that can make a difference in what I type. Be it rational to some or just to me, it will seem confusing to others. Meds will do that, so the mythical pass, do I receive it...no because it's still up to me to follow the tos.

[SuperFemme]

I am differently abled and am on meds that can make a difference in what I type. Be it rational to some or just to me, it will seem confusing to others. Meds will do that, so the mythical pass, do I receive it...no because it's still up to me to follow the tos.


BINGO. Thanks Corkey. :koolaid:

[christie]

Christie I am sorry that this is your perception of what this thread is about.

While I can only speak in absolutes about my own different abilities I am not unable to advocate for all different abilities.

Also, please understand that a bad knee is not a disability. Once you lose all use of that knee, then you cross over into the realm of differently abled.

Adele - Your response just further confuses me. I'm really trying to understand what the thread intent is at this point because it seems that you have shifted gears, by your very words.

Further, it concerns me that you state you can't advocate for all disabilities but yet, I would see the DA ambassador role as just that - an advocate for all DA persons.

Finally, "a bad knee" as you stated, is certainly not the same as some of the debilitating physical disabilities our community members endure. However, if I fall down the steps with aforementioned bad knee and become a paraplegic, I still don't see how that would impact my accountability for my words and how I chose to interact in an online setting - which, again, was what you stated you wanted this thread to be about.

This feels like we have a difference of opinion and I will respect that they differ.

I would like to hear from you, in your capacity as DA ambassador, how we as a community can further ensure that all our DA persons are treated equally so that the nonDA's don't feel as if bfp and its members give the pass.

[Nina]

"Further, it concerns me that you state you can't advocate for all disabilities but yet, I would see the DA ambassador role as just that - an advocate for all DA persons."

*I* (Nina) may well be misreading or misunderstanding the above..what SF said is :

"I am not unable to advocate for all different abilities."

so...what she said is that while she may not have the Personal experience of the whole range of DAs, she can, indeed, advocate for for a/the variety of different abilities....

I (Nina) have other things I'm thinking on, but my communication skills are not as accurate as I intend these days, so for now I will leave my fingers at rest...

Nina

[SuperFemme]

"Further, it concerns me that you state you can't advocate for all disabilities but yet, I would see the DA ambassador role as just that - an advocate for all DA persons."

*I* (Nina) may well be misreading or misunderstanding the above..what SF said is :

"I am not unable to advocate for all different abilities."

so...what she said is that while she may not have the Personal experience of the whole range of DAs, she can, indeed, advocate for for a/the variety of different abilities....

I (Nina) have other things I'm thinking on, but my communication skills are not as accurate as I intend these days, so for now I will leave my fingers at rest...

Nina

You read my post completely right.
Thank you for that.

I thought I had been clear. :glasses:

[friskyfemme]

Good Day to all here...
I have a diagnosis of Dyslexia and ADD. I consider my different wiring as a challenge not a disability. However my brother who is living with a severe TBI frontal lobe damage as
more than differently abled. He is nonverbal, highly behavioral, with severe cognitive disability. I do not expect he be given a 'pass' I expect that persons that do his direct care are capable of helping him interpret his world so his reaction to stimulas like sudden noises, touches, transitions, bathing, eating, drinking can be within calm responses. He isn't capable of explaining his response. I doubt that he understands why he responds to things the way he does. Sometimes more extreme than other times. The fact that you here can relay to others the particulars of your disability is great for you.

Be patient and loving in your exchange. Know that those who most need advocation can not ask for it themselves.

[Medusa]

I'd like to make a few comments here:

* Adele is very, very smart but is not trained as a social worker, therapist, or disability liaison. She uses her lived experience as a DA person to thoughtfully filter the needs of DA people on this site up to us and to provide guidance on these kinds of discussions and to answer questions of newbie DA folks. She isn't in a position of authority, she is here because I asked her to help keep watch for places that we could improve the experiences of DA folks on this site, to answer questions, and to check our processes for accessibility.
I think she does an excellent job.

* The experiences of DA people on this site is important to me, as well as the experiences of people who are not DA. That means that we need a healthy symbiosis for people of all levels of ability to interact here. The TOS is the structure for that and provides a standard code of conduct for everyone to follow.

* I think we do a pretty good job on this site of reaching out to one another when there is a need. Sure, there's room for improvement but I do see many people willing to give time and energy to help people who need it.

* While I am completely comfortable with people offering help and answering questions on a member to member basis, I dont see a time when the site will institute an administrative structure that will take on the responsibility of providing therapeutic assistance to DA people. It would put us in a really bad legal position and open us up to alllll kinds of potential lawsuits.

I see the position of Ability Ambassador as a member-supported function that provides guidance, limited assistance, and a higher level of visibility for DA folks here. That position is not and can't be responsible for the experiences of the many DA folks here. It simply isn't possible or responsible. I think that providing a clear and concise TOS, being available as Admins and Mods, and checking our processes for holes and marginalizing verbiage can go a long way. The other parts, we can do as a membership. The main part, in my mind, must come from a person's willingness to follow the TOS.
What I mean by this is that I see a huge difference in people who are having difficulty understanding things and making mistakes but who generally try to interact in healthy ways, and people who are differently abled but who also interact in intentionally hateful, rude, or shit-stirring ways. Some things are about the difference in ability and some things are about a person being unwilling to follow the rules because they think they are the only person who matters.

I will also say that I do see how people who have *physical* disabilities can have a harder time interacting on this site.
For example: Member "A" has both feet amputated due to Diabetes and is on an incredible amount of pain meds. Posting will on pain meds, Member "A" makes statements or interacts in ways that are against the TOS, outside of the range of how they normally behave, etc.

Another example: We recently had someone who is on partial disability for carpal tunnel ask us to provide voice-to-type software for them to be able to participate here.

Another example: Users who are sight-impaired and who use a voice service to transcribe the words that are typed for them might not be able to participate in chat because the voice service cant transcribe the conversation as fast as it happens, thus the sight-impaired member is constantly behind on the conversation and cant participate with other members on the same level.

Im pretty thankful that this conversation exists. I am learning a lot.

[AtLast]

Good Day to all here...
I have a diagnosis of Dyslexia and ADD. I consider my different wiring as a challenge not a disability. However my brother who is living with a severe TBI frontal lobe damage as
more than differently abled. He is nonverbal, highly behavioral, with severe cognitive disability. I do not expect he be given a 'pass' I expect that persons that do his direct care are capable of helping him interpret his world so his reaction to stimulas like sudden noises, touches, transitions, bathing, eating, drinking can be within calm responses. He isn't capable of explaining his response. I doubt that he understands why he responds to things the way he does. Sometimes more extreme than other times. The fact that you here can relay to others the particulars of your disability is great for you.

Be patient and loving in your exchange. Know that those who most need advocation can not ask for it themselves.

I appreciate what you are saying here. My late sister had paranoid schizophenia and even when taking medications, had very delusional thinking. Her capacity was very diminished at times and she just was unable to understand many social ques. She also was very smart, kind, and lived life aware of the fact that her potential could never be achieved due to her mental illness. When she died, my tears were mixed because I knew there was so much she missed due to her illness even though I just plain loved her like she was. Her sensibilities compared to mine were just not the same. Never could be.

You are so right on about some just not being able to advocate nor ask for this, themselves.

I think the Planet does an excellent job in being sensitive to DA issues (Medusa's post is very clear). Adele does a great service here, I believe. And no, I do not know her in real-time. Nothing is ever perfect, but it sure seems like the admin gives DA a serious look and offers support and understanding while being responsible for the entire site. And hey, Dusa has had to box my stubborn ears and I deserved it. Yes, I have challenges, my sister had a very different set of variables.

[Apocalipstic]

I have thought about this a lot.

First let me say that I think it is incredible that this website even wants to have a DA ambassador and that anyone wants to take that on.

What I see, kind of jumping off what Medusa said is sometimes different dissabilities intersect in a negative and dangerous way. Say someone with no filters and an anger disorder spouts off something that is very detrimental for someone with PTSD.

Volatile situation.

Whose disoder is worse or trumps the other?

Or is it ok for the person with anger opportunities to be able to insult other members at all? disorder or no?

I think the TOS has to be the wall at which it stops. Can you follow the rules after being given time outs and suggested coping mechanisms you refuse to take advantage of. Is your behavior hurtful and detrimental to other members?

Do my rights stop where someone else's begin?

[christie]

You read my post completely right.
Thank you for that.

I thought I had been clear. :glasses:

SF - You were clear. My apologies. I did mis-read your post - and thats why it bothered me! lol

That is a prime example of how the fallout issues of a physical disability can impact our posting. Today is fibro flare. Hence, my misreading of your post - fibro fog.

My apologies.

[SuperFemme]

SF - You were clear. My apologies. I did mis-read your post - and thats why it bothered me! lol

That is a prime example of how the fallout issues of a physical disability can impact our posting. Today is fibro flare. Hence, my misreading of your post - fibro fog.

My apologies.

No biggie. If anyone understands misreading a post, it's me.

Fibro flares are awful, do take care to be gentle with yourself.

[violaine]

[QUOTE=christie0918;155636]
I do think, however, Belle brings up an issue that I, too, think is problematic in two ways: (1) What if the DA person having an issue doesn't feel a rapport with SF? In following that train of thought, to me, having the hierarchy or next step in the process, what if the DA person doesn't feel comfortable in speaking with a moderator or administrator? These persons, while active, participating community members also have a position of authority and I think something to think about is how that might not feel safe.

(2) Its also been my observation and interpretation that most of the neuro DA's might not see that they even need to ask for assistance. Most of the times when Bratboy has gotten into sticky communication issues, he doesn't see that his behavior is the problem or how what he said/did is offensive/crossing a boundary. How can we, as a community, expect a neuro DA, especially those with communication differences, to have the capacity to know that they need to ask for help? I have issue with expecting a neuro DA person be accountable when they might not have the cognitive ability to look outside of self to see where their part of the issue is the problem.

Its also why I thought that a peer system of folks who aren't dual-roled as both moderators/position of authority and community members might be a viable supplement to the current process. For instance, Belle might be more comfortable in reaching out to me to ask for clarification of a post rather than having to ask a Moderator, whose role as Moderator is one of "task master". I'm just an equal. I think sometimes, even the NT folks have trouble seeing a Moderator as also a peer - I know I do in spite of the additional efforts the Moderators go to in clarifying from which position they are speaking.

Again, I hope that everyone understands that I am not saying there is anything wrong with, nor am I being unsupportive of the DA Ambassador role/process. I just see how we might be able to supplement it so that we can further dispel the mythical pass perceptions.

Christie, i could not agree more with your post, and selected the paragraphs above, because of my own thoughts with regard to a peer system/equal for issues perhaps in need of clarification. i would feel comfortable reaching out to you or Cyclopea, for a lot of reasons, but mainly fair-mindedness. i'm thinking about something SuperFemme wrote to me in an earlier post about being able to separate sites- and just briefly wanted to add that i do understand there are some differences, but basically, the people are the same, and my processing operates on 'patterns and connections' to experiences. in other words, if Cyclopea and Christie have interacted with me in positive or neutral ways for years, do not skip my posts, or ignore my contributions - rep notes, quotes, pms, and/or posts, on a regular basis [because i do notice things], and i can see that Christie and Cyclopea seem to be like this with people across the board, have a solid awareness of AT/AS processing- then i'm going to feel a lot 'safer' with approaching for clarification. i would rather honestly know what / whom i'm dealing with online out in the open, rather than my being here and simply 'tolerated', because away from the computer, i enjoy challenging conversations without so many areas of confusion.

probably another reason i'd chose a peer is that person may not be very 'popular', and if she [or he] happens to be an aspie, and/or creative type with sharp ideas for important discussion, though topics might get frequently misunderstood / read as being somewhat trouble-making, and if the peer can be found dwelling a bit on the fringes of online communities, i'm pretty certain i'll relate to a few of the reasons why.

[SuperFemme]

violane, you are free to seek out help/advice from whomever you choose.

medusa addressed that in her post.

but if you don't trust the mods/admins? it's going to be difficult if for the very fact that there is noone left to apply solutions.

i'd also like to speak to popularity because what one sees and what one does not see can have a lot of impact. i don't feel "popular" what i do feel is gratitude for the kindness and healing thoughts from the membership here.

i am dying. i am pretty much trapped on an island (my bed) with my computer. which grants me access to the only community i have.
and i eternally grateful for this space. why? because from an act of love by two people, this site is here for us to enjoy.

two people with full time jobs that make no money from this site. two people that cannot get on days peace.

so to be anything but grateful (for me me me) would feel like entitlement.
i don't do entitlement, and trust me living with a different ability cured me of that. living with a terminal illness that keeps making me sicker and sicker keeps me cured.

i have to wonder if you distrust of me is really about the fact that my best friend is dating your ex? because it absolutely feels like that to me, and i understand you feeling that way. i do. if it is of any comfort to you, we have never ever had a conversation in which your name was brought up.

i respect you, and embrace you with AS. not only do i embrace you...i spend at least part of every day reading everything i can about AS. i am invested in making sure that the powers that be on this site understand you for just who you are. not some standard of expected behavior.

[SuperFemme]

so apparently my question has ruffled some feathers.

i get it, and gave a lot of thought to my post. in the end i decided it would be diminishing to violane to not ask her. the same as i would ask anyone else.

so i apologize. my question was valid but that portion of my post should have been in pm. i'm fully ready to accept the consequences.

[violaine]

SuperFemme wrote:

i have to wonder if you distrust of me is really about the fact that my best friend is dating your ex? because it absolutely feels like that to me, and i understand you feeling that way. i do. if it is of any comfort to you, we have never ever had a conversation in which your name was brought up.

dear SuperFemme,

you've 'got your rights' to wonder, and/or have feelings :) i sure do a lot of wondering myself, and sure, your question could have been asked in a PM to me - whether or not i'm not even thinking of [which is one thing] or discussing your best friend, her partner, or any friendships/relationships i've had in the past [which is another thing]. i can assure you that your best friend and her partner were not part of my model/post/processing.

so, feathers getting ruffled for me, are due to : comments about how you 'understand my feeling that way/my name not being brought up/ 'we' have never had conversation about you. . . .' does read very publically boundary-crossing/strange to me.

if my own truth is being disputed here, and drama being brought in about people i'm not even having any personal drama with!! then how will having an ambassador in place work?




thank you.

[Soft*Silver]

so maybe this might be the site to ask this question: What IF someone who is DA, continually needs timed out because of the same behavior (or very similar behaviors) over the course of their participation on this site, when is enough enough? Where is the line drawn? I know this will need to be answered in a subjective way, since we are not discussing anyone in particular, and each case would be handled individually, but when does no "pass" become formalized?

[Apocalipstic]

so maybe this might be the site to ask this question: What IF someone who is DA, continually needs timed out because of the same behavior (or very similar behaviors) over the course of their participation on this site, when is enough enough? Where is the line drawn? I know this will need to be answered in a subjective way, since we are not discussing anyone in particular, and each case would be handled individually, but when does no "pass" become formalized?

I am interested in this question too.

If someone is given suggestions they ignore and numerous time outs, when is enough enough?

Is there actual banning on this website? or do people just get timed out again and again over the same significant breaking of the TOS like racism, sexism, calling names etc.

I am a fan of the warning and time out system, I am not arguing with that, but consistent offenders. Is there a too much?

[Corkey]

I would think it's up to the owners. With or with out our opinions it really is their call.

[Apocalipstic]

I would think it's up to the owners. With or with out our opinions it really is their call.


Makes sense! :)

[Soft*Silver]

well, yes it is there call...not questioning that at all. I am just wondering what their "cap" is..

[Corkey]

Guess they would be the ones to ask.

[SuperFemme]

I am interested in this question too.

If someone is given suggestions they ignore and numerous time outs, when is enough enough?

Is there actual banning on this website? or do people just get timed out again and again over the same significant breaking of the TOS like racism, sexism, calling names etc.

I am a fan of the warning and time out system, I am not arguing with that, but consistent offenders. Is there a too much?

I don't think there is a one size fit's all answer for the question both you and softness bring up.

I *do* know that the site owners take into consideration a DA members challenges and how that might affect the way a person filters, or has a lack of filters.

I do know that the site owners are very aware that for many people, this is the only available "community". It is not at all a light decision to take away access.

Of course, if someone is continuously threatening members or breaking the TOS? That is going to force a hand, so to speak.

Everyone deserves to feel safe, and while people are going to make mistakes? it is up to the person NOT to make the same mistakes over and over.

I hope I have managed to confuse you with my answer. :byebye:

[Apocalipstic]

I don't think there is a one size fit's all answer for the question both you and softness bring up.

I *do* know that the site owners take into consideration a DA members challenges and how that might affect the way a person filters, or has a lack of filters.

I do know that the site owners are very aware that for many people, this is the only available "community". It is not at all a light decision to take away access.

Of course, if someone is continuously threatening members or breaking the TOS? That is going to force a hand, so to speak.

Everyone deserves to feel safe, and while people are going to make mistakes? it is up to the person NOT to make the same mistakes over and over.

I hope I have managed to confuse you with my answer. :byebye:

No, that makes sense.

I am glad that banning is not taken lightly and yes, everyone deserved to feel safe.

[Apocalipstic]

Because this is not an exact science, there is no way to say what the "Cap" is or will be. And yes, the owners have the final say.

I don't think it's productive to talk about "What If's" ever really, because we need to have the freedom, compassion and ultimately the authority to review each situation as it occurs.

We know people need this community, or they wouldn't keep showing up. We don't want to yank it from them unfairly, but we also don't want to subject all members to bad behavior, lack of social skills or even threatening behavior that is well out of our scope to "fix". We're not trained counselors or educators, we're volunteers and community members just like you. :)

--June (Moderator voice, but not moderating)

Makes sense, thank you for responding in moderator tone, but not you are in trouble tone. Grin!

Even trying to wrap my own mind around how to deal with my own crossed boundaries as an individual is difficult.

This subject is something I do keep tossing around, thank you for helping us process and stay on track. :)

[Soft*Silver]

I appreciate the answers given and feel that (as if it counts at all in regard to this) it matches my own expectations.

I get into skirmishes too, online. I appreciate it when I am handled with care, but firmly. June addressed me one time...and she addressed me, rather than "dressing me down". Her firm tact actually made me feel comfortable rathr than confronted. I learned from that interaction and have (hopefully) done as requested.

I dont want anyone banned. I was simply asking the inevitable question...

[violaine]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;156608]violane, you are free to seek out help/advice from whomever you choose.

medusa addressed that in her post.

but if you don't trust the mods/admins? it's going to be difficult if for the very fact that there is noone left to apply solutions.

i have to wonder if you distrust of me is really about the fact that my best friend is dating your ex? because it absolutely feels like that to me, and i understand you feeling that way. i do. if it is of any comfort to you, we have never ever had a conversation in which your name was brought up.

if you want to know why i'm weary of you it's because of a pm you wrote to me assuring me that everything was indeed private, as ambassador DA, and there would be no disclosure of personal information. right after that pm, you composed the post here, and i am quoting you.

i could have understood if you put it out in the thread any feelings you were having about you in your post- but when things get turned around on me, where is taking responsibility [in. the. act. ] ?

it felt terribly deliberate.

how would you feel, as an Ambassador, if information [true or not about you, but personal], were put out in a thread- rapid response to something you wrote, and i was not exactly sticking to my own feelings, but dragging in unnecessary drama?

it's not just about me then when that was posted to me, it's also about the people you want to be ambassador?

is that ohk with you? and would i get 'away' with what you do? these are the VERY SLIPPERY SLOPES i deal with here. you just created one that i didn't need to encounter. it does have an impact on me - thought you should know!



thank you.

[Apocalipstic]

It is apparent that we all have slip ups and bad days and say things we wish we had not.

Maybe we all need that Pass some days. :)

DA or not DA.

We all process information and what is and is not OK differently and lash out when we are hurt.

It could be medicines taken
Pain
Fibro Fog
Brain Injuries
Neurological Opportunities
Cultural differences
English as a second or third language
Rural as opposed to Urban experiences (and I mean living in a large city, not code word Urban)
general fussiness
etc.

Do we need a pass?

I know some days I am hella glad we all get one. :)

Does everyone get the same number of chances? I am not aware of a rash of actual banning, so it seems we do in the large picture.

I do think some personalities and pasts work better together than others, which why I suggested a back up plan, but understand any changes or suggestions should not come from me.

[AtLast]

It is apparent that we all have slip ups and bad days and say things we wish we had not.

Maybe we all need that Pass some days. :)

DA or not DA.

We all process information and what is and is not OK differently and lash out when we are hurt.

It could be medicines taken
Pain
Fibro Fog
Brain Injuries
Neurological Opportunities
Cultural differences
English as a second or third language
Rural as opposed to Urban experiences (and I mean living in a large city, not code word Urban)
general fussiness
etc.

Do we need a pass?

I know some days I am hella glad we all get one. :)

Does everyone get the same number of chances? I am not aware of a rash of actual banning, so it seems we do in the large picture.

I do think some personalities and pasts work better together than others, which why I suggested a back up plan, but understand any changes or suggestions should not come from me.

Yeppers.

Being able to look into our own stuff when we do make mistakes says it all to me. We are a passionate, bright, struggling, human group... and sometimes we just blow it!

When I realize pain and meds, lack of good sleep and just life is kicking me in the gut and my responses come from this place, I need to sit back and have a talk with myself. All of the education and years of work as a therapist don't mean beans for me at these moments because what I need to do is just about self-reflection and figuring out how I can just be a better person!

[AtLast]

It would be helpful to see what others believe mythical means to them in this context. Sitting here thinking that what is a mythical pass to one person may not be the same for another.

Guess I'm looking at this in terms of awareness and consciousness at large. Re: how can a population get things across to others and build a better communication foundation?

[SuperFemme]

It would be helpful to see what others believe mythical means to them in this context. Sitting here thinking that what is a mythical pass to one person may not be the same for another.

Guess I'm looking at this in terms of awareness and consciousness at large. Re: how can a population get things across to others and build a better communication foundation?

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.

I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations.

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

[Apocalipstic]

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.

I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations.

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

But what about when we have a really bad day and break the rules. We know that our intentions are pure, but what if the "membership" feels threatened?

I say, on those days, we need a pass.

Do the TOS needs to be changed? No.

But I like the way the owners and mods try to take a variety of things into account when moderating and giving time outs.

Is the difference how many people feel threatened? How bad the infraction is? Like is a sin and sin, or are there different levels?

[Gayla]

Do we really need to quantify it? I know when I cross the line and I imagine most everyone else does, also.

I had a conversation with a friend once about "breaking the rules" and she said her decision as to whether or not to break them was based on the consequences. If she was just going to be in a little bit of trouble then she often would decide to do something she knew she wasn't supposed to do. Of course, we were also talking about things we did as teenagers, not things we did as adults.

I think, in this context, it's not about how much is "ok" because, frankly, if you are cognitively aware of the line and intentionally choose to push right up to it and maybe poke a toe over, then, in my opinion, you don't get any pass at all.

However, if you truly aren't aware there is a line, then the admin/mods will step in and help with the situation.

[SuperFemme]

But what about when we have a really bad day and break the rules. We know that our intentions are pure, but what if the "membership" feels threatened?

I say, on those days, we need a pass.

Do the TOS needs to be changed? No.

But I like the way the owners and mods try to take a variety of things into account when moderating and giving time outs.

Is the difference how many people feel threatened? How bad the infraction is? Like is a sin and sin, or are there different levels?

I think everyone has bad days. Frankly? Mine was yesterday. I was subsequently moderated.

I don't think it's a pass for the admins/mods to take into consideration all factors involved. I see it pan out in a very fair and equitable manner across the board.

When it becomes a pass is when the behaviors are repeated over and over and no matter how many times the admin/mods take the time out to work with said person? they still keep on doing the same shit over and over.

Threatened = Sexually inappropriate. Harassment. PM's that are clearly threatening.

We as a membership should probably always take the opportunity to apologize behind the scenes and if possible? Work it out. I think we do a great job of that.

I hope this post had some sense of meaning. My neurons are so not transmitting today. :(

[Rockinonahigh]

I dont know anythig about a pass...never had one.Mom said deffness isnt a reason for a pass,just get up and do more than the rest,in thery thats ok but has its own probs in the doing more than the rest cause the rest think u are bing a snot and trying to up stage them.Never had special ed either,dont do sign but do read lips pretty good.My hearing has gotten worse over the years and I have total fade outs wich are really weired when it happends its like watching silent movies..real strange feeling to be shure.All this thing in the main stream life have been dificult at best,did it make me stronger..yeah in one reguad but it did make me angry that "normal" what ever that is has so many priviledges for just being normal.The non discrimanton act is suposed to helps su that need it but imho..dosent do squat when u need it..I know been there dont that.

[Rockinonahigh]

The last post last line should read....Been there done that...sorry typo.

[adorable]

Hi, everyone --

We really need to get this thread back on topic and stop discussing personal issues that have already been moderated.

No one *has* to go to anyone for support regarding DA issues of any kind. You are all free to seek peer group support here in whatever way feels comfortable for you.

If you have additional questions or concerns about the process we have in place, please send them via PM directly to the site Admin.

As a reminder: This thread and other support threads are not intended, nor are they able to take the place of actual counseling or therapy, they are intended as peer discussions only and participating in them is purely voluntary. Because this is a public website on the internet, there can be no assurance that anyone or everyone will necessarily feel safe at any time.
Thanks,
--June (Moderator Voice)

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.
I am one of them. I think that capacity matters. I have read this entire thread. I have yet to see how capacity doesn't factor in. I am reading you as saying that everyone can get it. I just don't see how that's true when people clearly cannot, even some people who claim to get it don't.

I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations. Why? Because you do? Because I do? "In general" is a broad brush, but it doesn't include those without the capacity to even realize that they are not meeting the expectations. If they believe they are clarifying and someone else calls that harassment - does the person claiming harassment automatically win their case? If people see a history of posts, pm's, email, facebook interactions and knows how a person communicates - is that disregarded because someone else has already figured out what's really going on? Or even four people think so? What is the magic number and how many posts, pm's or emails does it take to be qualified as not getting it?

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

But it's not safe. It's the internet. Which is why I assume June posted what she did above that I highlighted. As the old saying goes "If you don't want to be read, don't publish a book."

I think everyone has bad days. Frankly? Mine was yesterday. I was subsequently moderated.

Yet, you weren't called out on the carpet and demanded by a group of people and their friends to explain yourself. I've seen that happen. It happened to me at a time when I was struggling with significant brain swelling, powerful steriods and serious pain meds. I've even seen people start threads to do it! Sometimes it can feel like a popularity/witch hunt to me when it comes to who gets a pass or how it's doled out.

I don't think it's a pass for the admins/mods to take into consideration all factors involved. I see it pan out in a very fair and equitable manner across the board.

When it becomes a pass is when the behaviors are repeated over and over and no matter how many times the admin/mods take the time out to work with said person? they still keep on doing the same shit over and over.

I get this strange feeling that we are talking about a certain thing here that everyone isn't supposed to be talking about yet everyone does and then says they aren't which is rather Dr. Seussville like.

Threatened = Sexually inappropriate. Harassment. PM's that are clearly threatening.

If they were ignoring the person can the PMs still be received? If the PMs aren't received is it still harassment? If any person offends another person they always have the option of ignoring them. If someone is cute and the other person is actually interested it isn't read as threatening. How one might start dating? I have sent some pm's to people I liked and let them know, but I'm adorable so everyone is flattered. I don't know what it's like for other people who aren't adorable or not read as being as awesome as I consider myself to be. What if the person who is offended has a history of being offended/and or making all kinds of assumptions? Do they get a pass for being offended all the time? At what point does groupthink come into play if it does at all?

We as a membership should probably always take the opportunity to apologize behind the scenes and if possible? Work it out. I think we do a great job of that.

It's a nice thought but even that requires the ability to be sincere and not everyone has that. Some people are just hostile by nature or my personal favorite - passive aggressive. Some people can only work things out with people who agree with them and others have no desire communicate with people at all behind the scenes especially if the nastiness occurred in public.

I hope this post had some sense of meaning. My neurons are so not transmitting today. :(

Mine either! :(

[AtLast]

I think it's pretty clear that it means different things to different people.

To ME what this thread is about is not changing the rules of the TOS for anyone. Differently abled or not. We all need to be responsible for our behavior.

What I am NOT talking about in terms of a mythical pass is empathy and compassion for our DA'd population here. I think that it's been said quite eloquently by the admins/mods that a lot of time/energy is given DA'd people who have issues that make it not a simple process to communicate.

Yup, I agree!! And am just plain thankful for this!

Then there are the folks who passionately want the membership to ignore the inappropriateness/feelings of danger when dealing with a DA'd person who claims they "can't help it" or believes that their different ability excuses bad behavior.



In thinking about this, honestly, here and in real-time, I believe DA people take responsibility for their actions. Sometimes, I am not so sure about compassion from abled bodied/minded people, sometimes. Mainly, I feel this way when with a couple of close friends one of which is very physically challenged, the other, having invisible ability challenges (mainly emotional).

It does seem to me that the Planet has a stronger consciousness around DA overall. So, the work around this is showing up, I think. I know... just my opinion...

Personally, I don't know if ignoring some of these behaviors is respectful to someone, really. It feels like dismissal to me and enabling responses. Thinking about how difficult it can be for DA people to just put themselves out there on the site with the added difficulty of just having printed words to communicate with and this ignoring could just add to their isolation in many ways.

Compassion for me includes respect for someone's ability to get appropriate social cues and common courtesy even when they just might need to hear suggestions more than once, or stated differently. I am thinking of times when I have had a light-bulb go off because of how someone else framed something and it was really the same information that others may have been trying to get me to understand. If they just wrote me off as She will never get it, I would be being dismissed and obviously being viewed as incapable via usual and customary standards that often just don't apply to DA people.



I think people in general will rise to the level of expectations.


Yup- and what I said above....

I really believe that we can be excellent support for each other in a strive to make sure that involvement on this site is safe. For everyone.

Yes! We can! It takes all of us, but, the site feels like a much safer place to me, overall. And I can take quite a bit of what is being presented here into real-time which I think will help in many of my relationships. Hey, a 2-fer-1!!

[SuperFemme]

Adorable thanks for your post.
I think June and I are speaking to different things re: safety.
This IS the internet and it's all out there for everyone to see. Forever.
BUT, POC have a right to feel safe (i.e., not seeing racism in thread after thread). I think the site has done a great job re. that kind of safety.
Women have a right not to endure sexual harassment, being unwillingly objectified. I think the site does a great job of that too.
DA'd people have a right to not be treated as second class citizens. I think again, that the site does a great job. They also do a great job of working with everyone based on their limitations.

I also agree about capacity. Again, there is some hard work going on behind the scenes to accommodate different levels of capacity.

As for rising to the level of expectations? I believe that because I've seen it happen over and over again. In occupational therapy, where if not pushed some of us wouldn't have ever talked, walked, or learned to swallow again. In brain injury rehab for two years? I saw it every single day. Most memorable were the complete 180's some did. One person didn't want to do the work, and was quite happy being miserable. So the teachers set the bar higher. Three of those students secretly became passionate about "doing the work" and rose from their wheel chairs to walk for graduation. Breathtaking.

I'm NOT talking about anything in particular. Not at all. This is very general.

I wonder, how in the world we gauge who is appropriately offended? That sounds presumptive to me, and I am unsure there is fairness in attempting to do so. Not that I am set in stone one way or another, just not sure about putting the burden on a person who is being harassed, stalked, or threatened.

I know there is no one right answer, I wasn't meaning to give the impression that there was.

I just choose to have faith in mankind and believe that people are coming from a good place.

I am also aware that this site is not easy to navigate, and that if someone has the capacity to do so, then it is not a huge expectation to require people to follow the TOS. The range of how that is achieved is going to look very different for a DA'd person than it is for somebody who is not DA'd. Never the less it would be giving a false sense of "being above the law" to a DA'd person to NOT require following the TOS. Offline? One must obey the rules. If one can only walk? Then it is pretty important to know the laws. Not doing so can result in severe consequences, even death. One must pay for things at the store, or face a jail sentence. One must follow the rules if one takes public transportation that is specifically for DA'd persons, or one can find themselves banned from using that service.

The public in general is uncomfortable with DA'd people. I have so many awful stories...like having a grand mal seizure and coming to with a gun in my face. Security guard was convinced the seizure was either a) demonic or b) the result of a drug overdose. I cannot tell you how terrifying that was. I have had police called on me for all sorts of reasons pertaining to my different ability. It can truly be miserable sometimes.

I don't want anyone to go after a DA'd person. It is my dream that we will act accordingly. I didn't mean to leave the impression that there should be a no tolerance policy for DA'd people. That is not at all what I am discussing.

I'm sorry your brain was swelling. Been there, done that and it sucks. Big.
Random thought, I know. I just have lived with it and understand what it can do. :canadian:

[Apocalipstic]

If someone is dangerous why are they still here?

Otherwise who is to say that AS people even want to change or should to make things easier for others?

I try to learn from experiences and to appogize a lot and thank people for their help, not everyone feels that way. Many deaf people do not want to hear...Autistic people can like their way of being. I am sure there are other examples as well.

People who don't take their medicine so they can be more artistic?

Do we give them passes? I think it is important that we do.

Not everyone can increase their capacity, or even wants to.

I think Liam's? suggestion of a buddy system in the most severe cases, if there is someone who wants to help and everyone is agreeable.

[Soft*Silver]

On another site, I acted as a "buddy" for someone who had very poor social skills, could not read or chose not to read social cues and was sexually inappropriate to the point of making people so uncomfortable they considered calling in the police. I offered to be their buddy to help them not get kicked off the site.

I was SO stupid!

What I found out after awhile was this was much larger than what was being presented, and all that was being presented as DA wasnt necessarily DA. At least not in the diagnosis given. (There has to be some reason for someone created that much drama and crisis to get attention. )

I stepped back and took a good look at the interaction of this person with everyone. There was a definite pattern. I did an intervention online with this person and basically became a target of theirs afterwards. But at least I was out of their loop of frenzy...

The reason I bring this up, is that by attempting to help someone socialize in a group setting, by offering a buddy to help out, makes the buddy responsible (and thus the admins and mods as well as the "buddy") and if this person who is aided escalates or becomes confrontational or hostile to the cueing, and decides to act out and harms someone, the buddy and admins and mods will be set up for liability since they took the responsibility.

I realized after my personal experience just how scared I should have been. Sometimes, what you see online is only the tip of the ice burg....

and also, people hide diagnosis ...and some will self-assign diagnosis without therapeutic assignment. Just because it quacks like a duck doesnt mean its not a chicken in duck's feathers...

I like the idea of an ambassador where someone can GO to the ambassador if they need help

but I am really opposed to a Buddy goes to them and walks them thru their postings and interactions and watches out for their inappropriate behaviors. Makes me very uneasy...

[Apocalipstic]

So sorry this happened to you. You make a good point that there are on line predators.

You know, that does make sense, if someone refuses to use the ignore button, then why would they listen to someone supposed to help them.

We need to be very careful who we give our phone numbers to. Very careful.







On another site, I acted as a "buddy" for someone who had very poor social skills, could not read or chose not to read social cues and was sexually inappropriate to the point of making people so uncomfortable they considered calling in the police. I offered to be their buddy to help them not get kicked off the site.

I was SO stupid!

What I found out after awhile was this was much larger than what was being presented, and all that was being presented as DA wasnt necessarily DA. At least not in the diagnosis given. (There has to be some reason for someone created that much drama and crisis to get attention. )

I stepped back and took a good look at the interaction of this person with everyone. There was a definite pattern. I did an intervention online with this person and basically became a target of theirs afterwards. But at least I was out of their loop of frenzy...

The reason I bring this up, is that by attempting to help someone socialize in a group setting, by offering a buddy to help out, makes the buddy responsible (and thus the admins and mods as well as the "buddy") and if this person who is aided escalates or becomes confrontational or hostile to the cueing, and decides to act out and harms someone, the buddy and admins and mods will be set up for liability since they took the responsibility.

I realized after my personal experience just how scared I should have been. Sometimes, what you see online is only the tip of the ice burg....

and also, people hide diagnosis ...and some will self-assign diagnosis without therapeutic assignment. Just because it quacks like a duck doesnt mean its not a chicken in duck's feathers...

I like the idea of an ambassador where someone can GO to the ambassador if they need help

but I am really opposed to a Buddy goes to them and walks them thru their postings and interactions and watches out for their inappropriate behaviors. Makes me very uneasy...

[Soft*Silver]

and your addresses, and work place names and towns, and your personal emails...

online predators arent always child molesters. Sometimes they are people who like to create chaos..it serves as a way of feeling in control. If they are the one creating the chaos, then they can affect its pace and direction. And this chaos is attention serving. They also "groom" their victims just like a child molester grooms his victims. Bonding, isolating, splitting behaviors (he said this about you, so he isnt my friend anymore..you are!) creating a codependency between you and them, stroking your ego (I fell for this and ashamedly, I admit it. Taught me a valuable lesson), etc. Once groomed, you are invested with someone who is a master/mistress of manipulation. And yes, they ARE DA...but as others have said, none of us are acting as therapists or social workers on this site. And this level of behavior can exceed appropriate behavior for ANYONE on this site..

these kind of folks are rarer than a albino zebra. But they are around, and I did find one on another site. I had to take a good hard look at why I fell for this. And it was ego based. (Working hard on that now.) 99.9% of the people you meet online will not be anything like this. But .01% will be.

I have learned not to give out too much information too soon.

So sorry this happened to you. You make a good point that there are on line predators.

You know, that does make sense, if someone refuses to use the ignore button, then why would they listen to someone supposed to help them.

We need to be very careful who we give our phone numbers to. Very careful.

[SuperFemme]

I would like to reiterate this: Nobody is being asked to change. Or to "grow their capacity". I want that to be very clear. Asking people to work with the capacity that they already have is not asking anyone to change. It is not asking people to suddenly have a greater capacity. Simply to work with what you've got.

Also, I would like to once more be super clear about what the "Mythical Pass" is that I am referring to. Because I feel that the definition keeps getting lost.
Mythical Pass = not requiring a differently abled person to follow the rules.

A pass is NOT about giving somebody leeway. Not about choosing to act/interact with a person when concerns come up. Not about abandoning the empathy & compassion with which the admin/owner treat everyone with. Not a witch hunt. Not about advocating (or not) for another member.

I *hear* the AS members and their concerns. There is no agenda, and nobody is complaining about you. Nor asking you to change. I feel like this pass issue has struck a chord that is not positive.

I am also not demanding people come to me for anything. I *am* here should anyone choose to do that, but please, feel free to look to your peers or whomever it may be that can be of assistance. Hell go right to the mods/admins if you have an issue. But please? Don't not go to anyone. If something is not addressed, it can not be changed.

Softness? I wanted to thank you for sharing your experience, that was really valuable information. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. :seeingstars:
But? It sounds like you have done the hard work around it and that it won't easily happen again. That is success. (f)

Anyone that does feel ok about coming to me? Pls know that you can do so for any number of reasons. My goal is to make sure that the site is aware of any changes needed, and that we have proper outreach to differently abled members. :bunchflowers:

[violaine]

[QUOTE=SuperFemme;157752]I would like to reiterate this: Nobody is being asked to change. Or to "grow their capacity". I want that to be very clear. Asking people to work with the capacity that they already have is not asking anyone to change. It is not asking people to suddenly have a greater capacity. Simply to work with what you've got.

Also, I would like to once more be super clear about what the "Mythical Pass" is that I am referring to. Because I feel that the definition keeps getting lost.
Mythical Pass = not requiring a differently abled person to follow the rules.

A pass is NOT about giving somebody leeway. N''ot about choosing to act/interact with a person when concerns come up. Not about abandoning the empathy & compassion with which the admin/owner treat everyone with. Not a witch hunt. Not about advocating (or not) for another member.

I *hear* the AS members and their concerns. There is no agenda, and nobody is complaining about you. Nor asking you to change. I feel like this pass issue has struck a chord that is not positive.

SuperFemme,

i was thinking about something-

when you write that the 'definition keeps getting lost' and/or the pass issue has 'struck a negative chord' - i'm wondering if it's because there are other DA people in this thread, and not everyone will see things the way you see/comprehend them?

i probably will not/cannot process exactly the same as another aspie- but we may have a better understanding of things we try to communicate between ourselves, due to at least, some of the AT wiring. maybe i have the most reasons/times for editing [smile].

does this make sense?

[AtLast]

and your addresses, and work place names and towns, and your personal emails...

online predators arent always child molesters. Sometimes they are people who like to create chaos..it serves as a way of feeling in control. If they are the one creating the chaos, then they can affect its pace and direction. And this chaos is attention serving. They also "groom" their victims just like a child molester grooms his victims. Bonding, isolating, splitting behaviors (he said this about you, so he isnt my friend anymore..you are!) creating a codependency between you and them, stroking your ego (I fell for this and ashamedly, I admit it. Taught me a valuable lesson), etc. Once groomed, you are invested with someone who is a master/mistress of manipulation. And yes, they ARE DA...but as others have said, none of us are acting as therapists or social workers on this site. And this level of behavior can exceed appropriate behavior for ANYONE on this site..

these kind of folks are rarer than a albino zebra. But they are around, and I did find one on another site. I had to take a good hard look at why I fell for this. And it was ego based. (Working hard on that now.) 99.9% of the people you meet online will not be anything like this. But .01% will be.

I have learned not to give out too much information too soon.

Good advise!

Unfortunately, that very, very samall percentage does exist and adults can certainly be taken advantaged of (or manipulated) by these people and targeted. No, don't give out to much information, too soon. Nothing wrong with caution.

[Apocalipstic]

I do think that is someone wanted to help and be a buddy it should be someone of the same gender. I think wayyy less confusion would happen that way.

and

Don't give out your phone numbers and adresses to anyone!

[Soft*Silver]

I think gender has little to do with it.

[SuperFemme]

I do think that is someone wanted to help and be a buddy it should be someone of the same gender. I think wayyy less confusion would happen that way.

and

Don't give out your phone numbers and adresses to anyone!


what is your line of thinking on this?

[Apocalipstic]

what is your line of thinking on this?

Liam suggested it and I think if it is something he wants to do, it might be cool. I really have no idea how it would work, but admire him for suggesting it.

I am not really stable enough mood and time wise on a day to day basis to do somethting like this myself and honestly, do not have the patience. If I made good suggestions and the person refused to make any changes, I would be DONE. Laugh! I would be a nagging freak. Plus, I don't always say the right things myself.

I do also think it is important to know predators are out there and to be very very careful like Softness said. I thought maybe if the person needing help was a guy, having a guy buddy would keep anyone from getting any "ideas" as it were, or same if it's a Femme or Butch. But if the person is really a predator with nothing wrong with them (and they are out there) then no amount of Buddy is going to help.

So, to sumarize....
I could not do it
and it depends on the person, if something is ACTUALLY wrong with them and are they the type to accept help.

[SuperFemme]

Liam suggested it and I think if it is something he wants to do, it might be cool. I really have no idea how it would work, but admire him for suggesting it.

I am not really stable enough mood and time wise on a day to day basis to do somethting like this myself and honestly, do not have the patience. If I made good suggestions and the person refused to make any changes, I would be DONE. Laugh! I would be a nagging freak. Plus, I don't always say the right things myself.

I do also think it is important to know predators are out there and to be very very careful like Softness said. I thought maybe if the person needing help was a guy, having a guy buddy would keep anyone from getting any "ideas" as it were, or same
if it's a Femme or Butch. But if the person is really a predator with nothing wrong with them (and they are out there) then no amount of Buddy is going to help.

So, to sumarize....
I could not do it
and it depends on the person, if something is ACTUALLY wrong with them and are they the type to accept help.

what is "it" that liam suggested?
was it in this thread, or somewhere else?
the only suggestion i can find by Liam is to put people on ignore.

what am i missing? (its making me question my sanity, not yours)

i totally support a buddy system in any capacity, but think it is a myth that femmes and butches/transfolk cannot have a relationship that isn't sexual.

i would hope that anyone being harassed by or otherwise affected by a predator would remember to use the report system, or pm a mod or admin.

[Soft*Silver]

In AA, they suggest you get a sponsor of the opposite sex. Why? Because then you wont have sexual or romantic feelings about them.

How heterosexist.

I had sponsors who were straight females and lesbians and bisexuals. Inappropriate shit happened with all of them. The straight chick thought I was stealing her gay homophobic boyfriend. The bisexual kept grabbing my hands and putting them on her breasts. The lesbian relapsed and ran off with my ex's best friend. Its a wonder I stayed sober. But, its a program of recovery and its INEVITABLE shit is going to happen, downhill or uphill.

And I have had straight men, gay men and bisexual men as sponsors. Straight man hit on me. In a fatherly way. (tell me that didnt fuck with my inventory!)The gay man was wonderful but I moved away and then his son died..we drifted apart sadly. The bisexual is dead...AIDS. Again, shit happens, its a program of recovery and its INEVITABLE problems would occur.

But, AA doesnt promise a perfect life, it just promises coping skills to deal with life.

And THATS why i didnt drink...

to bring this around to our new topic in this thread: gender.

Its heterosexist to think opposite genders cant work together. yes, heterosexists because it is based on the duelity of genders system of orientation. I dont know about you but I left that tricycle along time ago. No offense meant, Ap, but someone of my gender has nothing to do with my mental health and social issues. Who I sleep with or live with or fall in love with does not determine how well I will function with A, B, or C. Let alone J, and K.

btw...my sponsor now is a lesbian who is in a loving committed long term relationship with a guy. I dont know his orientation. Do I care? Not a bit. She is a damn good sponsor and I am working hard at what she gives me because she has what I want and it aint her vagina.

so...just wanted to elaborate on what I didnt have time to say earlier....

[Apocalipstic]

what is "it" that liam suggested?
was it in this thread, or somewhere else?
the only suggestion i can find by Liam is to put people on ignore.

what am i missing? (its making me question my sanity, not yours)

i totally support a buddy system in any capacity, but think it is a myth that femmes and butches/transfolk cannot have a relationship that isn't sexual.

i would hope that anyone being harassed by or otherwise affected by a predator would remember to use the report system, or pm a mod or admin.

Maybe it was someone else

sorry I thought it was Liam
I don't have time to go look.

Of course we can all be friends, I just keep reading about Femmes feeling unsafe, that is the only reason I suggested it. If no one actualy feel unsafe, then there is no problem.

Really a this point, I don't care anymore if someone feels unsafe if they won't just use the ignore button and insist on giving out their phone numbers and addresses.

[Apocalipstic]

In AA, they suggest you get a sponsor of the opposite sex. Why? Because then you wont have sexual or romantic feelings about them.

How heterosexist.

I had sponsors who were straight females and lesbians and bisexuals. Inappropriate shit happened with all of them. The straight chick thought I was stealing her gay homophobic boyfriend. The bisexual kept grabbing my hands and putting them on her breasts. The lesbian relapsed and ran off with my ex's best friend. Its a wonder I stayed sober. But, its a program of recovery and its INEVITABLE shit is going to happen, downhill or uphill.

And I have had straight men, gay men and bisexual men as sponsors. Straight man hit on me. In a fatherly way. (tell me that didnt fuck with my inventory!)The gay man was wonderful but I moved away and then his son died..we drifted apart sadly. The bisexual is dead...AIDS. Again, shit happens, its a program of recovery and its INEVITABLE problems would occur.

But, AA doesnt promise a perfect life, it just promises coping skills to deal with life.

And THATS why i didnt drink...

to bring this around to our new topic in this thread: gender.

Its heterosexist to think opposite genders cant work together. yes, heterosexists because it is based on the duelity of genders system of orientation. I dont know about you but I left that tricycle along time ago. No offense meant, Ap, but someone of my gender has nothing to do with my mental health and social issues. Who I sleep with or live with or fall in love with does not determine how well I will function with A, B, or C. Let alone J, and K.

btw...my sponsor now is a lesbian who is in a loving committed long term relationship with a guy. I dont know his orientation. Do I care? Not a bit. She is a damn good sponsor and I am working hard at what she gives me because she has what I want and it aint her vagina.

so...just wanted to elaborate on what I didnt have time to say earlier....


I have not ever been to AA, so I don't know all the right things to do for adictions. I thought we were talking about DA people, not addicts. To me it is a totally different subject.

I just thought you indicated you felt unsafe beacsue of what you experienced being a buddy and so I assumed it was not another Femme. I was wrong, I appologize.

I keep getting stuck on people feeling unsafe and wanting to help, but if I am not helping, then no problem.

[Apocalipstic]

Just to be clear, any "Buddy System" will be negotiated on a one-to-one basis between individuals. We will not be starting a thread to match "Buddies". That is a very personal thing and no one should feel compelled to have one, or not have one.

Nothing wrong with discussing the merits, I just don't want this to get out of hand and have folks asking for a Buddy Policy, because BFP, the owners and the volunteer moderators are not licensed to administrate or facilitate help for those with DA beyond allowing space to be used for support and discussion among peers.

Thanks,
June (Moderator voice, not moderating)

I am not asking for someone suggested it and I have read several pages trying to figure out who...but really I give up.

Softness mentioned how unsafe it was and I was mulling over how maybe same gender would help. Unfortunately for us all, this is how my brain works.

I could not do it and would never ask anyone else to do something I would not do myself.

I thought we were discussing, I am sorry if it again sounded like I was asking for change.
Again and example about how some of us have differences communicating. Maybe I am too hyper focused to be on this thread.

[christie]

I am not asking for someone suggested it and I have read several pages trying to figure out who...but really I give up.

Softness mentioned how unsafe it was and I was mulling over how maybe same gender would help. Unfortunately for us all, this is how my brain works.

I could not do it and would never ask anyone else to do something I would not do myself.

I thought we were discussing, I am sorry if it again sounded like I was asking for change.
Again and example about how some of us have differences communicating. Maybe I am too hyper focused to be on this thread.

Jen -

It was me who first brought up a buddy/peer system and how it might supplement, not replace, the current system. I completely understand how the site cannot be liable for such a thing, but I do think it already exists on an unspoken level - I know that there are times when I am not sure my words will convey/be interpreted as I want them to and I might ask Jess to take a gander before I hit send.

Like June, I feel that there are some important issues being discussed here. I have stuck in this conversation much more than I do others because I think its terribly important and well, I have much more investment in it. I do think that the perception of the mythical pass exists and do agree that everyone should be accountable to the same set of rules.

One of the things I have been pondering the last couple of days is how the perception of the mythical pass comes to be. Is it when we see a post prefaced with "I am ____________."? That blank could be me saying that I am in fibro fog or it could be someone on the spectrum saying they are neuro-diverse.

In making that preface, am I asking for special consideration (a pass) for the words I am about to post? Or am I clarifying mitigating circumstances which might explain how my words might be understood/misunderstood?

I know that I have done this in posts. I have been thinking about why I (or someone else) might make the preface and what the intent of the preface is.... and I don't have any answers yet.

What do ya'll think?

[Apocalipstic]

Jen -

It was me who first brought up a buddy/peer system and how it might supplement, not replace, the current system. I completely understand how the site cannot be liable for such a thing, but I do think it already exists on an unspoken level - I know that there are times when I am not sure my words will convey/be interpreted as I want them to and I might ask Jess to take a gander before I hit send.

Like June, I feel that there are some important issues being discussed here. I have stuck in this conversation much more than I do others because I think its terribly important and well, I have much more investment in it. I do think that the perception of the mythical pass exists and do agree that everyone should be accountable to the same set of rules.

One of the things I have been pondering the last couple of days is how the perception of the mythical pass comes to be. Is it when we see a post prefaced with "I am ____________."? That blank could be me saying that I am in fibro fog or it could be someone on the spectrum saying they are neuro-diverse.

In making that preface, am I asking for special consideration (a pass) for the words I am about to post? Or am I clarifying mitigating circumstances which might explain how my words might be understood/misunderstood?

I know that I have done this in posts. I have been thinking about why I (or someone else) might make the preface and what the intent of the preface is.... and I don't have any answers yet.

What do ya'll think?

I have seen "I am____" or "I have________" used both ways. As a please let me know if you can't understand me, I think it good and very useful. If it is a preface to a mean spirited or abusive post, it seems like BS.

Thank you so much for letting me know who it was who suggested the Buddy thing, I could not find it and was starting to think I was hallucinating. :) and yes, I get what you are saying I sometimes have asked you, Bit, Adele and other people to see if I am making sense. But it has been a "making sense" thing, not a saying something terrible then using AS or fibro fog as an excuse.

I think we all interpreted the words "mythical pass" differently. But I think for me, I have come to see it as using being differently able as an excuse rather than an explanation for breaking the TOS. I know it is a fine distinction but does that make sense?

My problem is I keep wanting an logical answer and a logical plan and I am realizing there is not want to be one. That there is not going to be a clear cut way this is handled. That everyone does not need clear cut answers and structure like I do. :) It is a learning curve for me and I appreciate the patience of everyone who has read my posts.

Not everyone wants to be helped. Some people want to cling to feeling unsafe, just as some people want to cling to making poor interpersonal choices when something as simple as an ignore button might just do the trick.

[christie]

I think we all interpreted the words "mythical pass" differently. But I think for me, I have come to see it as using being differently able as an excuse rather than an explanation for breaking the TOS. I know it is a fine distinction but does that make sense?

Not everyone wants to be helped. Some people want to cling to feeling unsafe, just as some people want to cling to making poor interpersonal choices when something as simple as an ignore button might just do the trick.

Jen - I snipped your post because these two points are so very well stated. the explanation vs. excuse issue as well as persons wanting to cling to feeling unsafe.

Thank you for being so clear on points that I couldn't seem to get across.

I'm still stuck on explanation vs. excuse. I see it, as well as so many other issues with online forums, being very subjective. I might see it as explanation - another as excuse and we still have the issue of the mythical pass. Make sense?

I'm off to a day of all things busy - having my car totaled yesterday was NOT on the to-do list and just added to the physical shit AND the stress level. Yay me.

Will be back later - interested in how others feel about explanation vs. excuse.

[AtLast]

Um... the same gender discussion is bothering me because it feels like all butches may be viewed as male. I am not male. Also, some femmes (as well as some butches, both male and female identifiied and transmen) are attracted are attracted to femmes (or transmen or male identified butches).

I may very well be misunderstanding this. It is a sensitive subject sometimes for many. It is for me when I feel that all butches are being identified as male. Again, maybe I am misreading things.

Personally, a buddy is a buddy to me and I have femme buddies, butch buddies, trans buddies and het or bi buddies. None of which I am drawn to sexually.

As far as a buddy system for DA when posting, it can be a good thing at times. LOL, there have been some times, I know that my thoughts might be mingled with a bad pain day or PTSD issues. This could (not always) influence how I am perceiving posts/discussions, especially more heated ones. Maybe running a response by a buddy isn't a bad idea for me.

Hummm... but maybe just by virtue of feeling that I need to run it by a buddy means I should just calm down and not post at that time. I have certainly had times like this!

Something else I am thinking about is that sometimes DA people are very hard on themselves. I feel like there is a lot of clarity from folks here in the thread. Helpful and genuine information.

[Apocalipstic]

Um... the same gender discussion is bothering me because it feels like all butches may be viewed as male. I am not male. Also, some femmes (as well as some butches, both male and female identifiied and transmen) are attracted are attracted to femmes (or transmen or male identified butches).

I may very well be misunderstanding this. It is a sensitive subject sometimes for many. It is for me when I feel that all butches are being identified as male. Again, maybe I am misreading things.

Personally, a buddy is a buddy to me and I have femme buddies, butch buddies, trans buddies and het or bi buddies. None of which I am drawn to sexually.

As far as a buddy system for DA when posting, it can be a good thing at times. LOL, there have been some times, I know that my thoughts might be mingled with a bad pain day or PTSD issues. This could (not always) influence how I am perceiving posts/discussions, especially more heated ones. Maybe running a response by a buddy isn't a bad idea for me.

Hummm... but maybe just by virtue of feeling that I need to run it by a buddy means I should just calm down and not post at that time. I have certainly had times like this!

Something else I am thinking about is that sometimes DA people are very hard on themselves. I feel like there is a lot of clarity from folks here in the thread. Helpful and genuine information.


Will respond to the rest of your post later when I have time to think....But I did want to make very clear that I do not see Butches as Male...unless they see themselves as male and that is something I have to work to be honest.and still that is something I am working on.

My partner is a Female Butch. We are not stone and in no way fall into a 100% boy/girl thing except in looks.

Sorry if I sounded that way, when I say Male I mean someone who is FTM or who sees themselves as male.

[SuperFemme]

Jen -

It was me who first brought up a buddy/peer system and how it might supplement, not replace, the current system. I completely understand how the site cannot be liable for such a thing, but I do think it already exists on an unspoken level - I know that there are times when I am not sure my words will convey/be interpreted as I want them to and I might ask Jess to take a gander before I hit send.

Like June, I feel that there are some important issues being discussed here. I have stuck in this conversation much more than I do others because I think its terribly important and well, I have much more investment in it. I do think that the perception of the mythical pass exists and do agree that everyone should be accountable to the same set of rules.

One of the things I have been pondering the last couple of days is how the perception of the mythical pass comes to be. Is it when we see a post prefaced with "I am ____________."? That blank could be me saying that I am in fibro fog or it could be someone on the spectrum saying they are neuro-diverse.

In making that preface, am I asking for special consideration (a pass) for the words I am about to post? Or am I clarifying mitigating circumstances which might explain how my words might be understood/misunderstood?

I know that I have done this in posts. I have been thinking about why I (or someone else) might make the preface and what the intent of the preface is.... and I don't have any answers yet.

What do ya'll think?

you are right spot on about it being a subjective thing.
look around the website...how many veiled references do we see everyday? stuff that is clearly meant for someone, whomever that someone might be.

again, the mythical pass is about somebody repeatedly breaking the TOS, being worked with for months, and continuing to break the TOS.

nothing more. nothing less. i know that i try to preface my DA in a post if I feel like I am not being clear. i don't even know why i feel the need to do that.

however, when somebody makes racist, sexist, or personal attacks and then comes back a few hours later and use the da for an excuse? then does the same thing two days later? i have to wonder, and will usually open a dialogue with the person.

i love the buddy system that is here, on an unspoken level. i think both june and medusa have addressed the liability issues of a site initiated system.

unrelated: pls be good to yourself, because it sounds awful that car wreck. i am glad you are still here, and thankful for you not being permanently damaged.