Religious Holidays in Public Schools

[SassyLeo]

I was listening to OPB (NPR) today and they had a segment on school holidays (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wrni/news.newsmain/article/0/0/1674365/U.S./Muslims.seek.to.add.holidays.on.NY.school.calendar ). In NY, there is a large Muslim population and they seek to add 2 of the Muslim holidays to the school calendar.

Apparently the city schools already have Jewish holidays (my schools did not, so I went to school) in addition to the "traditional" Christian holidays.

They have 11 observed holidays on the school calendar and none are Muslim - or any other religion aside from Jewish & Christian.

What do you think?

[SassyLeo]

I'm on the fence between -be more inclusive- and -remove all holidays-

I absolutely support inclusivity AND I also think, how many religions are there in the world that could potentially be incorporated? And does that push us further into the un-separation of church and state?

[cane]

Where I live about 1/3 of the population are muslims. We don't have any official muslim holidays but the families that celebrate holidays of any religion that isn't christianity usually just go right ahead and keep their kids out of school, and for the most part schools are o.k. with that.

Futher on, when it comes to ramadan for example, some schools have delayed the start of the day to accomodate the kids that can not eat during the day and who usually, during that time, has been up very late in the night. Just one example.

Personally I think it's a beautiful thing when cultures are trying to come together like this so I would welcome any change...

[Gayla]

When I was a kid, I was always jealous of everyone that celebrated things that weren't scheduled holidays because it meant they got extra days off!

I think it would be interesting to see something completely new implemented where each student, and staff member, got a certain number of days off and could use them as they choose. Similar to how many employers give PTO as opposed to holidays/sick leave. Of course, that would be a scheduling nightmare for staff coverage but it would be interesting.

[SassyLeo]

Where I live about 1/3 of the population are muslims. We don't have any official muslim holidays but the families that celebrate holidays of any religion that isn't christianity usually just go right ahead and keep their kids out of school, and for the most part schools are o.k. with that.

Futher on, when it comes to ramadan for example, some schools have delayed the start of the day to accomodate the kids that can not eat during the day and who usually, during that time, has been up very late in the night. Just one example.

Personally I think it's a beautiful thing when cultures are trying to come together like this so I would welcome any change...

Are the kids required to take sick days for being out of school? I hope they wouldn't be...

[SassyLeo]

When I was a kid, I was always jealous of everyone that celebrated things that weren't scheduled holidays because it meant they got extra days off!

I think it would be interesting to see something completely new implemented where each student, and staff member, got a certain number of days off and could use them as they choose. Similar to how many employers give PTO as opposed to holidays/sick leave. Of course, that would be a scheduling nightmare for staff coverage but it would be interesting.

This is sort of what I was thinking. Just have "holidays" not necessarily related to any religion, like "spring break", but have a few days randomly throughout the year for use of holidays... of course, then they wouldn't be on the specific day, like Yom Kippur or Ramadan, etc.

[Corkey]

I think schools shouldn't have religious holidays and should take all of them out of the school calendars. Separation of church and state. Yes I believed this as a kid.

[Gayla]

This is sort of what I was thinking. Just have "holidays" not necessarily related to any religion, like "spring break", but have a few days randomly throughout the year for use of holidays... of course, then they wouldn't be on the specific day, like Yom Kippur or Ramadan, etc.

I think you would have to keep in the major christian holidays, if the majority of students are christian, like christmas, etc. but then each student has a pool they can use for their own individual holidays.

I attended public school so I don't really know much about private/religious school. I would assume that a private school would get to set their own holidays but do they also recognize the usual major holidays. Even the one's based outside their beliefs?

OK, that was my probably bad attempt at PC-ly asking if like Jewish schools take a "winter break" that includes Christmas and New Year's just because they are recognized as national holidays in addition to being religious holidays?

[cane]

Are the kids required to take sick days for being out of school? I hope they wouldn't be...

No sick days, since they are not sick, but this is not an official term of action, it's just something the teachers has begun to do/let happen in all fairness.

But yes, a limited number of days for each student would maybe be a good idea, but of course tricky when it comes to scheduling

[SassyLeo]

I think you would have to keep in the major christian holidays, if the majority of students are christian, like christmas, etc. but then each student has a pool they can use for their own individual holidays.

I attended public school so I don't really know much about private/religious school. I would assume that a private school would get to set their own holidays but do they also recognize the usual major holidays. Even the one's based outside their beliefs?

OK, that was my probably bad attempt at PC-ly asking if like Jewish schools take a "winter break" that includes Christmas and New Year's just because they are recognized as national holidays in addition to being religious holidays?

Well as an example: Portland Jewish Academy takes a winter break in December for about 2 weeks, but it is not because of Christmas, it is "winter break". Work/school are actually permitted during Chanukah, but not Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, etc. which are in September and don't coincide with any Christian holiday. Parts of Passover are not really permitted for work or school, but Easter falls on a Sunday and kids don't normally get time off for that...more like "spring break" which is not always right after Easter.

[AtLast]

Since I doubt that schools will not take away holidays, I would say then other religious holidays should be included. However, I don’t think that any religious holiday should be honored in public schools.

I don't know why breaks can't just be called Winter, Spring Breaks, or Mid-Term, etc. It would be best to have these just sorted into the days allowed off in public school calendars and not based upon the holiday breaks utilized now, like Christmas or Easter.

The holidays that are represented by now are Christian and that does leave out other religions (or non-religious people). The public schools in the US are part of a federal education department, thus, ought to align with Separation of Church and State in the Constitution.

I just feel that any religious (or spiritual, for that matter) honoring of a holiday is a private matter for families to decide upon. Public schools are secular institutions.

If we can make adjustments to things like year-around school terms, we can change this!

[Gayla]

Hmm, yeah, that would make scheduling a nightmare. I've never been fond of "majority rules" kind of things, even when it makes sense.

Looking forward to what everyone has to say about this one!

[SassyLeo]

I just realized I should have put PUBLIC schools in the title and poll options...I think everyone so far knew that I meant public, but I will ask Linus to change it.

[Corkey]

Kids are in public schools to learn, not to keep having religious holidays. If kids go to religious schools they can abide by that religious schools curriculum.

[Lynn]

I don't think that schools should teach religion or have a religious based curriculum. But, I do think that schools should teach respect, including respect for other religions and other points of view. I don't see that allowing time off for personal beliefs is a violation of the idea of separation of church and state.

I think there are too many days off in the school year, in general. Most of the time off is not "religious" even if it's scheduled around religious holidays. I do think it would be positive for students and useful for curriculum planning, if holidays of major religions were given. Not any old holiday, but the holy days when students would be staying home anyway. I doubt if there will ever be scheduled classes on Christmas. So, it makes sense to me that Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur as well as the major Muslim holy days should be given. I also think school should be provided year-round, with semesters and various shorter periods of time off that both schools and parents can plan for.

[Diva]

Ya know? I'm wondering just how long it has been "The Rule" to have those 2 weeks off for what used to be called "Christmas Vacation"? But now, of course, we must be PC and call it "Winter Break".

As far as the length of the school year....I believe it was created in answer to the agrarian society in 'the old days' and set by the planting/harvesting schedule. School lasted around 4 to 5 months back in the oldern days. The farmers would certainly have poo~poohed the idea of a year~round school. (As would I!!!)

It's a very interesting discussion.....and I do believe it would take an act of Congress to change tradition and do away with that 2-week (or thereabouts) break in late December.

School years fit the overall culture....in Italy, for example, school doesn't begin until mid-September and goes through July. August? Oh hell no. No school in August at all!

Neat discussion.....and I'm fairly certain I didn't contribute much at all! ;)

[Chancie]

I am not Christian, but I do enjoy celebrating Christian holidays with my friends and family who share those traditions. I very happily buy Christmas presents for the little kids in my life and I love making Easter baskets too.

I like having an extended period of time off for Christmas, but of course we celebrate those holidays in publically funded institutions because most of our 'Founding Fathers' were Christian.

[Soon]

I think there should be a pre-determined amount of School Breaks without any official naming of them--besides a Break.

In Australia, the year was divided into terms--after every three months of school, a two week break was given. In December/January it was summer break which lasted approximately six weeks if I recall. I really liked this system; there was always a break to look forward to instead of long stretches without a rest (for all concerned). There was no *official* naming or links/ties to any religious holiday--they existed solely as School Breaks.

In North America, yes some of our Breaks were designed around Christian holidays; however, I think any affiliation to the Christian roots of these holidays should now be removed--in a pluralistic society and in a publicly funded system, I don't see the need to favour one religious holiday over any other any longer.

I am not sure to do about Easter though; how to get rid of that (in Canada, students get Good Friday AND Easter Monday off) without calling it Easter--and this is in public schools. However, we also have one religion whose school boards are entirely government funded (R.C) in two provinces.

I don't want more religious holidays included in a public school's calendar, and I want the ones that exist renamed into neutral non-religious breaks.


If families want to remove their children for a religious holiday, that is their prerogative and all they need to do is call in their absence.

[UofMfan]

I haven't voted because I don't see a choice in your poll that reflects my opinion, which is the same as HSIN.

I believe in the separation of Church and State, even if said separation is getting blurrier by the minute. And also believe that there should be breaks during the school year, otherwise there would be burn out in the parts of both the students and teachers. I think those breaks should be named according to the time of the year, season or whatnot, but not to reflect any one religion.

I live in a country were we have 17 legal holidays, At least ten are religious. The country was also legally known, until about 5 years ago, as "The Country of Our Sacred Heart", even though our Constitution, rewritten in 1991 clearly defines the separation of Church and State. The thing here though, is that about 75% of the kids here go to Private schools and of those 80% are religious, and of those, 90% are Catholic. I say this because I can't foresee any change regarding religious holidays happening any time soon here.

So to even consider a change here would be dramatic at best. I do believe it should be done in the States but I can see the fight from the religious right already. During the Bush years the religious right was predominant in our culture and I think they are trying to make a comeback. All I can think of is the legal battle about "prayers in schools" to predict how difficult this would become.

That is all for now.

[Soon]

I voted the option "I think we need to take all holidays out of school calendars" b/c in my head I thought that meant removing the nomenclature of religious holidays. I didn't think that actually having NO breaks would be part of the options but maybe I am mistaken.

Of course, I think holidays/breaks should remain (!) but should be named or listed on school calendars without any religious affiliation.

[Bit]

I like having an extended period of time off for Christmas, but of course we celebrate those holidays in publically funded institutions because most of our 'Founding Fathers' were Christian.


I disagree, Chancie. There weren't any public institutions at the time of the Founding Fathers. Heck, there was barely an army! It was a fight to get banks; the first government fell apart and had to be replaced.

And schools? There were NO public schools in the US until the 1800s, and education was not compulsory before 1852. All the Founding Fathers were dead by then, so we cannot blame the Christianity ingrained in the system on them; it rightly belongs to the officials in the mid-1800s to the early 1900s.

I believe it's a mistake to confuse Deism and Christianity, btw. Deists believe in a non-specified Supreme Being, as well as in the ability of reason to explain the world, no faith or religion needed; Christians believe in a very specific God named Jehovah/Yahweh, in the primacy of faith over reason, and in the need for institutionalized religion. The majority of the Founding Fathers were Deist.

[SassyLeo]

Since I doubt that schools will not take away holidays, I would say then other religious holidays should be included. However, I don’t think that any religious holiday should be honored in public schools.

I don't know why breaks can't just be called Winter, Spring Breaks, or Mid-Term, etc. It would be best to have these just sorted into the days allowed off in public school calendars and not based upon the holiday breaks utilized now, like Christmas or Easter.

The holidays that are represented by now are Christian and that does leave out other religions (or non-religious people). The public schools in the US are part of a federal education department, thus, ought to align with Separation of Church and State in the Constitution.

I just feel that any religious (or spiritual, for that matter) honoring of a holiday is a private matter for families to decide upon. Public schools are secular institutions.

If we can make adjustments to things like year-around school terms, we can change this!

I think some schools already refer to holidays as breaks, but much of the time, the actual time the kids are off is based around Christmas or New Year's or Easter...

I don't think that schools should teach religion or have a religious based curriculum. But, I do think that schools should teach respect, including respect for other religions and other points of view. I don't see that allowing time off for personal beliefs is a violation of the idea of separation of church and state.

I think there are too many days off in the school year, in general. Most of the time off is not "religious" even if it's scheduled around religious holidays. I do think it would be positive for students and useful for curriculum planning, if holidays of major religions were given. Not any old holiday, but the holy days when students would be staying home anyway. I doubt if there will ever be scheduled classes on Christmas. So, it makes sense to me that Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur as well as the major Muslim holy days should be given. I also think school should be provided year-round, with semesters and various shorter periods of time off that both schools and parents can plan for.

Yes...in terms of planning for homework, exams, etc...it seems smarter to include most holidays. Like, what if the teacher had a mid-term planned for a certin week, but 20% of the class would potentially be out because of Ramadan? In terms of teachers and parents being able to make lesson plans and to provide cohesive cirriculum, I agree.

[julieisafemme]

I say remove all the holidays, or at least calling them holidays. So Winter break, Spring break etc. My child goes to a Jewish day school that is run on the Jewish calendar. If she went to public school I would just take her out for the High Holidays and Passover.

[JustJo]

My son attends a public school that calls all breaks by non-religious names - winter break, spring break - but that coincide with the dates of the Christian holidays.

However, because there is a large Jewish population here, the Jewish high holidays are also observed and there is no school. It's a little ironic that his school is technically closed for Yom Kippur but not for Christmas or Easter. No one seems to object, however.

The first Muslim students started at his school this year, and those kids were exempt from school on their religious holidays. The school also invited a Muslim religious leader to come talk to the school about what those holidays were and their significance beforehand, since most children (and parents) in the school had no knowledge about that faith. It wasn't mandatory for anyone to attend...more of a reception and learning opportunity.

I appreciate that his school makes an effort to talk about all faiths and cultures, and observes and celebrates an immense variety of holidays...even though the children attending are not terribly diverse. I think they enrich the children's education and broaden their minds. I also think they need the breaks...so the traditional couple of weeks in winter and spring (particularly here when we're buried in snow) are much appreciated, even though we are quite secular in our celebrations.

[Apocalipstic]

I believe in division of church and state and that students need breaks. The word holiday comes from Holy Day and Public School should not have Holy Days.

However, If a child is pulled out of school for a religious function by their parents, I do not believe the child should be penalized. It is not their fault if their parents are super religious.

I do remember frustration both as a child and an adult that the fervently religious somehow end up with extra holidays. We all got/get the major Christian Holidays off, but for example other kids got Christmas and other holy days off.

I might not be in church on Good Friday, but I might want to color eggs for Spring. *harrumph*.

I am not really sure how it should be handled. Year round school with neutrally named days off?

And while we are at it, can we get rid of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving please?

[christie]

I think schools shouldn't have religious holidays and should take all of them out of the school calendars. Separation of church and state. Yes I believed this as a kid.

I agree with you, Corkey. I have never understood why religious (read: Christian) holidays were a part of a school calendar, especially with school prayer out the window.

This piqued my interest and I went to check Bratboy's high school calendar for the 10-11 year - 24 school holidays with two being religious. Good Friday and Easter Monday.

Easter Monday?!?!?!? Until we moved to smalltown, BFE VA, I had never HEARD of "Easter Monday." Last year, the mominlaw planned a big family shindig... on Easter Monday. Imagine her shock and awe that my company didn't recognize it AND that I had never even fathomed such a thing. The look on her face was one who had just seen the debil herself :dance2:

[christie]

I might not be in church on Good Friday, but I might want to color eggs for Spring. *harrumph*.

Come to our neck of the woods and you have businesses recognizing Easter Monday. *eyeroll* I'm not certain why its a holiday, but it is. Guess that stone rolling on Easter Sunday requires recuperation time!

(No offense to any who might celebrate Easter Monday, but with my hellfire and brimstone upbringing in the Southern Baptist Convention, this wasn't ever mentioned)

[SassyLeo]

I think there should be a pre-determined amount of School Breaks without any official naming of them--besides a Break.

In Australia, the year was divided into terms--after every three months of school, a two week break was given. In December/January it was summer break which lasted approximately six weeks if I recall. I really liked this system; there was always a break to look forward to instead of long stretches without a rest (for all concerned). There was no *official* naming or links/ties to any religious holiday--they existed solely as School Breaks.

In North America, yes some of our Breaks were designed around Christian holidays; however, I think any affiliation to the Christian roots of these holidays should now be removed--in a pluralistic society and in a publicly funded system, I don't see the need to favour one religious holiday over any other any longer.

I am not sure to do about Easter though; how to get rid of that (in Canada, students get Good Friday AND Easter Monday off) without calling it Easter--and this is in public schools. However, we also have one religion whose school boards are entirely government funded (R.C) in two provinces.

I don't want more religious holidays included in a public school's calendar, and I want the ones that exist renamed into neutral non-religious breaks.


If families want to remove their children for a religious holiday, that is their prerogative and all they need to do is call in their absence.

You said it way better than I. Thank you.

I haven't voted because I don't see a choice in your poll that reflects my opinion, which is the same as HSIN.

I believe in the separation of Church and State, even if said separation is getting blurrier by the minute. And also believe that there should be breaks during the school year, otherwise there would be burn out in the parts of both the students and teachers. I think those breaks should be named according to the time of the year, season or whatnot, but not to reflect any one religion.

I live in a country were we have 17 legal holidays, At least ten are religious. The country was also legally known, until about 5 years ago, as "The Country of Our Sacred Heart", even though our Constitution, rewritten in 1991 clearly defines the separation of Church and State. The thing here though, is that about 75% of the kids here go to Private schools and of those 80% are religious, and of those, 90% are Catholic. I say this because I can't foresee any change regarding religious holidays happening any time soon here.

So to even consider a change here would be dramatic at best. I do believe it should be done in the States but I can see the fight from the religious right already. During the Bush years the religious right was predominant in our culture and I think they are trying to make a comeback. All I can think of is the legal battle about "prayers in schools" to predict how difficult this would become.

That is all for now.

This is an interesting thought for me. Obviously, because I grew up here in the US, there has always been the controversy about separation of church and state. We always said the pledge of allegiance and had breaks based around religious holidays. This was the 70's. It was later that holidays turned into -spring break- and -winter break- although we always knew it was because of Easter or Christmas. I mean, the only other holidays were things like Labor Day, Memorial Day, etc.

[Apocalipstic]

Come to our neck of the woods and you have businesses recognizing Easter Monday. *eyeroll* I'm not certain why its a holiday, but it is. Guess that stone rolling on Easter Sunday requires recuperation time!

(No offense to any who might celebrate Easter Monday, but with my hellfire and brimstone upbringing in the Southern Baptist Convention, this wasn't ever mentioned)

Maybe it is a Virginia thing? I have never heard of it either, but I also come from a nest of Southern Baptists.

Maybe it is so the girls who have corsages for easter can't wear them to school the next day?

[EnderD_503]

In Canada, students of non-Christian faith are allowed to take their own religious holidays off. I grew up in an area with a high Christian Orthodox population, and eastern European kids who observed those holidays (particularly Orthodox Easter which varies from Catholic Easte) were always permitted to take their own Easter and Good Friday off. Just as Chinese students were able to take the Chinese New Year off (actually, Chinese New Year has become pretty big in Toronto even among those who aren't of Chinese descent). Same thing went for all other faiths and nationalities. Personally, I'm perfectly ok with this practice of letting religious individuals take days off according to their own holidays, as long as they aren't made official holidays. I don't believe religion or religious holidays have any place in public schools or in the work place. As such, I don't think we should be adding in any other religious holidays into the system, since we're already trying to eradicate/rename/re-identify the Christian ones.

I wouldn't say that most or even the majority of our holidays are religious holidays in Canada, in the school system or outside of it. Our national statutory holidays are Christmas Day, New Year's Day, Canada Day, Labour Day and Good Friday (though a lot of shops are still open on Good Friday anyway, in Toronto).

Mid-term break in the school system coincides with Thanksgiving (second week of October here in Canada), and just makes sense with the way the Canadian public school system organises its semesters. However, I should also note that Thanksgiving in Canada does not have the same religious connotations as in the US, and is not counted as a religious holiday here.

As for Christmas holidays, it isn't referred to as such here anymore (at least, I haven't heard it referred to that way officially since middle school). In schools it's referred to as the winter holidays/vacation rather than Christmas holidays. In some universities a portion of the winter holidays are also known as "exam time." I am against this particular "holiday," personally :p

Whatever you choose to call it, I think it should remain. Students need the break. I'm of the belief that breaks are a good thing and should not be reduced. Germany is one of the nations with the most (largely religious) holidays in the world, and yet its population is one of the most productive in the world, with a good work ethic. I think it goes to show, that as long as the work ethic is high, holidays are good thing. North American society is far too high strung at times.

Other commonly celebrated holidays that warrant a day off school in Canada are Victoria Day (last Monday in May, celebrates Queen Victoria's birthday) aka the infamous May 2-4 weekend, Civic Holiday at the beginning of August and Family Day in February (which they just made up to give people a break in February because we didn't have one :P). We also have March Break in public schools, which typically coincides with Reading Week in universities.

The only real religious holiday left is Good Friday, really. I think that would be a tough one to get rid of, and I'm not sure it would really be necessary to get rid of it right now. The problem I have with renaming religious holidays (I don't think the breaks themselves should be removed) is that we start pretending those days are something they are not. It's like the aftermath of the French revolution when the government began renaming things that had religious or monarchic connotations according to so-called "French culture" (which excluded regional cultures like Norman, Breton and Provençal in favour of a so-called "unified French culture"). To me it just becomes this kind of Orwellian double-speak that I'd rather not see infect society. I think the holiday will eventually eliminate itself. In Canada only approximately 25% of the population attends religious services regularly or even considers religion of significant importance in their lives. More than likely this trend will continue, and the holiday well eventually rename itself, so to speak, at which point it will be far more genuine. It's very easy to rename Christmas holidays as winter holidays, and if the same was done with Good Friday I would be fine with that...as long as it was not renamed to something ridiculous as is sometimes done when the government wants to put in an extra holiday.

That's my take on the matter, anyway, and I, personally, hope that eventually the last of of the religious holidays observed in the Canadian school system (Good Friday) will soon go the way of the dodo bird, by choice of the Canadian people.

[Soon]

Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

And I concur with you about students just taking their own time off as needed for other faith based days. I have never heard of any student being penalized for missing day(s) due to Ramadan etc. (we have a fairly high Muslim population where I live).

I'm with you about breaks not being reduced...I still miss the three months on/two weeks off system in Australia. (with longer for summer holidays)

[Corkey]

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

[Soon]

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

I was curious about that statement of Ender's too and was hoping a US citizen would chime in.

Does your Thanksgiving have religious connotations?

Canada's doesn't at all.


We only get one day off for Thanksgiving as well--I think you have more days on that one? (2?)

[SassyLeo]

I believe in division of church and state and that students need breaks. The word holiday comes from Holy Day and Public School should not have Holy Days.

However, If a child is pulled out of school for a religious function by their parents, I do not believe the child should be penalized. It is not their fault if their parents are super religious.

I do remember frustration both as a child and an adult that the fervently religious somehow end up with extra holidays. We all got/get the major Christian Holidays off, but for example other kids got Christmas and other holy days off.

I might not be in church on Good Friday, but I might want to color eggs for Spring. *harrumph*.

I am not really sure how it should be handled. Year round school with neutrally named days off?

And while we are at it, can we get rid of Columbus Day and Thanksgiving please?

For me, Thanksgiving is really about spending time with my family and eating good food...having the time off is NICE. However, I would not care when we have the time off. Well, I do like the comfort feel foods we have, but we can make that anytime ;)

The whole premise of Thanksgiving has changed over the years and I wonder if kids these days even know what it is for :|

[AtLast]

My late partner was Pagan and observed Winter Solstice which did not always coincide with the Winter/Christmas break for her as a teacher or her kids in public schools. So, she took them off and had the kids out of school on Pagan ritual celebrations. She actually had to get a letter from an attorney to do so!

This whole thing just gets down to separation of church and state for me like I said before. And the fact that public schools are under a federal department (and non-Christian citizens pay taxes) even with local school districts. They are secular institutions. Of course this has been blurred in the US from the beginning!

I also remember as a kid how other non-Christian (or atheists, agnostic) kids were really ostracized in school because of religious differences. Today, more than ever, I feel respecting and honoring world religions is critical. Remaining locked in a Christian school holiday calendar is not helpful in kids understanding that everyone may or may not believe the same way.

When I think of the hate-crimes based upon religious intolerance, myth, and just plain bigotry, I really see a need to change how public school holiday calendars need to be changed. I also feel that public school curriculums should include modules on world religions and atheism.

I am a person of faith and deeply spiritual, but, I see this as a personal space and have no right to put my spiritual values on anyone else. I want to understand the various religions in the world as well. So much myth and plain misinterpretation going on that leads to hate and violence.

Something I enjoy and that has taught me a lot is going to various religious or spiritual celebrations belonging to others. It enables me to see beyond myself and my religious and spiritual realm. That feels like the true meaning of Grace to me…. Understanding how others experience religion, faith or spirituality.

[julieisafemme]

Thanksgiving was never religious in my home. It is just like Sassy said. It is all about food!

[Corkey]

I was curious about that statement of Ender's too and was hoping US citizen would chime in.

Does your Thanksgiving have religious connotations?

Canada's doesn't at all.

Not in my world, it is a holiday to give thanks, for some that is to their god, to others it is to their ancestors, and to Mother Earth. But as far as a religious holiday...not really no.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

For me, Thanksgiving is really about spending time with my family and eating good food...having the time off is NICE. However, I would not care when we have the time off. Well, I do like the comfort feel foods we have, but we can make that anytime ;)

The whole premise of Thanksgiving has changed over the years and I wonder if kids these days even know what it is for :|

Thanksgiving was never religious in my home. It is just like Sassy said. It is all about food!

Not in my world, it is a holiday to give thanks, for some that is to their god, to others it is to their ancestors, and to Mother Earth. But as far as a religious holiday...not really no.



I look at it as a day to celebrate the White Man's survival with help from the Native people whose land they took and whom they abused and killed either outright or with White Men's diseases.

I find obligatory family events really stressful too.

I like Halloween...yes, I know it has religious connotations too, but I love the Gothic stuff!

[Corkey]

We only get one day off for Thanksgiving as well--I think you have more days on that one? (2?)

I've only when working had the one day off, when not actually working that day. At school I had one day off, still had to show up at school on Friday.

[Kätzchen]

I was listening to OPB (NPR) today and they had a segment on school holidays (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wrni/news.newsmain/article/0/0/1674365/U.S./Muslims.seek.to.add.holidays.on.NY.school.calendar ). In NY, there is a large Muslim population and they seek to add 2 of the Muslim holidays to the school calendar.

Apparently the city schools already have Jewish holidays (my schools did not, so I went to school) in addition to the "traditional" Christian holidays.

They have 11 observed holidays on the school calendar and none are Muslim - or any other religion aside from Jewish & Christian.

What do you think?


Hi Sassy!

I read the article that you linked us to. One of the things I found interesting was how they framed the message - kind of like a dichotomy, two sided story (re: the choice between religion and school).

I think the issue, as it's framed in the article, seems problematic by nature in that, to me, preference for type of education or religion seems to be two separate subjects and to me, again, it's hard to integrate that particular stream of thought in productive ways that enhances life for those who dwell in particular communities.

I wonder if there are any social models out there (maybe in Europe?) that address community needs in a way that allow members of the community to set up a way for the school year that plans for and incorporates holiday time to observe particular religious/spiritual practices?

I don't know how feasible it is, but I wonder if at a district level (for instance, like here in the PDX metro area), schools could have the power to amend or adopt or set up a particular schedule that meets the needs of members of the community that access shared set of resources and sets of social/religious beliefs???

I think the conversation concerning your article reflects the many ways the social dilemmas that communities face, as communities become more diverse: for example, social policy that's currently utilized anywhere is a herculian task to address- due to variances of particular cultures clustering in communities in any place you could throw a dart on the map. I think one of the things that makes it hard to unravel or problem solve this issue is that we (the general "we") tend to want to distill issues into singular equations that are simpler to solve and it's usually pretty difficult to reduce it to those particular terms because of the social complexity that makes up each type of community.

I don't know if what I've written about seems helpful (I'm not fully awake yet either) but it's what came to my mind in thinking about your article and I hope it adds to the conversation here!

ps/ I couldn't vote on your poll either because the options seem to not have a wide enough range for me to participate - so my post here is in lieu of a poll vote as "other" but not how it's framed in the poll.

[Corkey]

In Colorado there is a charter school that addresses the community concerns of including pagan and Native rights. This school is still going strong.
Most of the charter schools I've known anything about are much more responsive to parents concerns. I remember there was a charter school in California that was started by the muslim community, but because of 911 they have been harassed by the state for the teachers credentials.

[Apocalipstic]

In Colorado there is a charter school that addresses the community concerns of including pagan and Native rights. This school is still going strong.
Most of the charter schools I've known anything about are much more responsive to parents concerns. I remember there was a charter school in California that was started by the muslim community, but because of 911 they have been harassed by the state for the teachers credentials.


Like the teachers at that school had anything to do with 911.

Very sad.

Shows zero division of church and state.

[Jess]

Should get at least a week off for Festivus!

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[Apocalipstic]

Should get at least a week off for Festivus!

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Make it a month that we get too and I'm in!

[UofMfan]

Come to our neck of the woods and you have businesses recognizing Easter Monday. *eyeroll* I'm not certain why its a holiday, but it is. Guess that stone rolling on Easter Sunday requires recuperation time!

(No offense to any who might celebrate Easter Monday, but with my hellfire and brimstone upbringing in the Southern Baptist Convention, this wasn't ever mentioned)

I never heard of Easter Monday. Here we take off from Weds to Sunday, but never Monday. Most people take the entire week as most of their children are out of school during that time. Learn something new every day, Easter Monday :) We also call Friday, Holy Friday, not Good Friday, I never understood why it was called Good Friday in the US.

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.

The original concept of Thanksgiving was purely religious (Puritans). Of course like many other things, the original concept has developed into something else. To me, it is a day to spend with Family.

[Corkey]

I never heard of Easter Monday. Here we take off from Weds to Sunday, but never Monday. Most people take the entire week as most of their children are out of school during that time. Learn something new every day, Easter Monday :) We also call Friday, Holy Friday, not Good Friday, I never understood why it was called Good Friday in the US.



The original concept of Thanksgiving was purely religious (Puritans). Of course like many other things, the original concept has developed into something else. To me, it is a day to spend with Family.

LOL not a puritan.

[Bit]

I forget who asked--HSIN, maybe?--but yes, Thanksgiving in the US is very often a four-day weekend. Many schools give kids the Friday off.

Work-wise, though, it's different if you're in service or retail. It's called Black Friday and it's the make-or-break day for so many retail businesses that a tradition of huge sales that start insanely early has sprung up.

In effect, we go from a day of giving thanks for all we have to a day of insane and utter greed, as if what we have means nothing at all. There are people who refuse to participate in this, but not many. Even some people who complain about the commercialization of Christmas participate in the Black Friday sales to get Christmas gifts cheaper.

What this has to do with Thanksgiving? Not much, except that I guess retailers are pretty thankful when their books get out of the red and into the black (that's how it got the name Black Friday).

[christie]

Hey now! If we wanna have a holiday, I am ALL about Black Friday! I support local business, I increase state revenue coffers in sales tax dollars AND I get new shoes!! Now if that aint a holiday, I dont know what is :dance2::blueheels:



I forget who asked--HSIN, maybe?--but yes, Thanksgiving in the US is very often a four-day weekend. Many schools give kids the Friday off.

Work-wise, though, it's different if you're in service or retail. It's called Black Friday and it's the make-or-break day for so many retail businesses that a tradition of huge sales that start insanely early has sprung up.

In effect, we go from a day of giving thanks for all we have to a day of insane and utter greed, as if what we have means nothing at all. There are people who refuse to participate in this, but not many. Even some people who complain about the commercialization of Christmas participate in the Black Friday sales to get Christmas gifts cheaper.

What this has to do with Thanksgiving? Not much, except that I guess retailers are pretty thankful when their books get out of the red and into the black (that's how it got the name Black Friday).

[Bit]

{{{{{{{{{{Christie}}}}}}}}}} Ya made me laugh!

[Apocalipstic]

Black Friday and all those crazed people? I would rather go barefoot!

OK, yes I like to go barefoot and like to look at shoes and not wear them, but seriously, it is a nightmare to me. People, noise, sudden movements....eeeekkkkkkk.

[AtLast]

I don't think I've ever herd of Thanksgiving being a religious holiday. It is a white mans holiday to celebrate the population surviving with the help of the Native people.


No, it isn't religious and what you say here is quite true. It is actually an affront to Native Americans. It has no religious sanctioning at all, however, it was the design of founders in the US seeking religious freedom and drenched in their religious underpinnings which were Christian.

We in the US have been sold the myth of Thanksgiving lock, stock and barrel! If it had any intention of gratitude to natives, the traditional Thanksgiving meal would be fish and corn!

I can get behind being thankful for many things in my life, but I can't celebrate this holiday as it is portrayed in the US. It is a good day of the year to talk to family about what it represents to the Native people here with some honesty. An opportunity to own history as it really happened. The least we can do, I believe. But, these are my personal feelings. And, yes, I do enjoy this day with family and friends, and hopefully in a more truthful manner.

I have similar feelings about Columbus Day. That is not a kind or honest holiday for Native Americans.

[Corkey]

Sometimes I'm sorry our People ever helped the white man. Perhaps they are grateful the People didn't kill them and serve them for dinner. ( attempt at light hearted humor)

[Rook]

I voted for Keeping Schools neutral from Religious Holidays ..
My main Reason being that if the Public Schools allow religious Holiday observance..
The Religious parents {of any religion} will soon want Prayer involved at some point for their children..
They would be able to say "Well, why not? U allow the Holidays"..
If Christians are then granted their morning Prayer {with a rather Lame 'those that don't follow christian prayers can stay seated or work on some other project' excuse}
Which would then trigger Muslims wanting to have their kids observe their Prayers {which are 5 every day, and sometimes More if they're Orthodox, and Ramadan adds even more, never mind the Fasting part}
Followed by Jewish{high holidays + Sabbath}, Hindi, Random Pagans{Solstice, Sabbats, esbats}, Animists, Shinto, Buddhists, etc etc...

I think, if they really want the children to Observe Religious holidays in a school environment, like other Posts here..
Put them within a specific Religious Academy, can't afford it ? Homeschool them, you don't qualify? I'm sure there's a way to work it out...

I do like the thought of "General" Holiday breaks..
I don't agree with "burn-out" though..
There's plenty Boarding schools on a year-round basis with general "Breaks" to visit Family..
Some are Religious, Military, Secular etc..

People can even abuse the privilege of removing their child for whatever Religious reason, and the School that allows one, would have to allow the other...

The Amish and Old Order Mennonite have their own 'schools' and Legally, once the children reach 8th Grade, that's it, time to be Useful in their district.
So far it's worked, but that's because they stay amongst themselves willingly, and teach their Traditions in addition to sufficient Secular material to get the kids by in a constantly changing world.

While grown-ups are "Debating" prayer or not...Evolution v.s. Creationism, the kids are the ones getting the crappy end of the stick, they'll be leaving elementary more confused than some Adults.

btw, I don't celebrate "Thanksgiving" per se, I'm not fond of constantly remembering the Slaughter and stealing of Native lands...
I'd sooner celebrate when Columbus "discovered" Puerto Rico with the help of Spain...riiiight



:candle::praying:

[EnderD_503]

[FONT="Georgia"]Ender,

Great post.

Not only does Canada (well, at least Ontario) have Good Friday off in schools (and is named as such) but Easter Monday as well.

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).

Most of the students where I am at refer to it as Christmas (not Winter) Break/Holidays/Vacation--maybe it's a regional thing.

I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

[Soon]

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).






That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.

[Corkey]

The Easter Monday thing really makes me wonder whether or not this is a new thing. I sincerely can't remember having Easter Monday off back in highschool, middle school or elementary school (I graduated from highschool about 6 years ago with the whole double cohort fiasco, so hopefully my memory is not that bad, haha). I live in Toronto (went to school in the east-end), so not sure if that makes a difference. I was actually talking to my mother about this the other day oddly enough, and she mentioned she couldn't remember having school off on Easter Monday either (she grew up in Eastern Ontario).



I should have clarified, but I meant officially in schools. Teachers and professors I've had never refered to it as the Christmas holidays back in high school or in university, but as "the holidays" or "winter holidays," both while living in Toronto as well as out on the East Coast. It could differ region to region, though, like you suggest. With students I notice it can go either way, Christmas holidays or winter holidays/vacation, though even then I see it used less and less.

About the American Thanksgiving thing...it could be I'm just totally ignorant about American Thanksgiving. From what I've read, what American friends have told me (those friends are mainly from Indiana and Minnesota if that tells anyone anything) and just general media I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

Yes, it is, however it is an affront to Native peoples. We don't celebrate, it is a sad ending to our way of life. Now don't get me wrong, we still eat, but we aren't celebrating with thanks to the white god. Those of us who retain our heritage, find other ways of giving thanks.

[SassyLeo]

I forget who asked--HSIN, maybe?--but yes, Thanksgiving in the US is very often a four-day weekend. Many schools give kids the Friday off.

Work-wise, though, it's different if you're in service or retail. It's called Black Friday and it's the make-or-break day for so many retail businesses that a tradition of huge sales that start insanely early has sprung up.

In effect, we go from a day of giving thanks for all we have to a day of insane and utter greed, as if what we have means nothing at all. There are people who refuse to participate in this, but not many. Even some people who complain about the commercialization of Christmas participate in the Black Friday sales to get Christmas gifts cheaper.

What this has to do with Thanksgiving? Not much, except that I guess retailers are pretty thankful when their books get out of the red and into the black (that's how it got the name Black Friday).

I hate to admit it, but I have been one of those crazy's who gets up early sometimes for a great deal :|

[EnderD_503]

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.


That is so weird. Especially the Easter Monday thing. I for the life of me can't remember ever having a four day weekend over Easter, and thought it was just something they started doing a few years ago or something. I'm going to do some digging around, or else this is going to drive me absolutely insane. Maybe I can find some old calendars from univerisity lying around, too, to vouch for my sanity on the Easter Monday thing.

I'm getting hits on both Christmas Break and Winter Break on different TDSB links, oddly enough. For example here: schools.tdsb.on.ca/jarvisci/misc/calendar_SeptDec08.rtf they call it Winter Break, while others call it Christmas Break. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that this may differ from school to school.

On a side note I saw some calendars refering to what we used to call March Break as "Mid-Winter Break," is that a recent change? Sounds so odd.

[Bit]

No, it isn't religious and what you say here is quite true. It is actually an affront to Native Americans. It has no religious sanctioning at all, however, it was the design of founders in the US seeking religious freedom and drenched in their religious underpinnings which were Christian.

It was specifically religious in origin. The first actual official Thanksgiving of the United States of America was declared by the Continental Congress in 1777 as a response to winning the Revolutionary War, and the proclamation begins, "FOR AS MUCH as it is the indispensable Duty of all Men to adore the superintending Providence of Almighty God; to acknowledge with Gratitude their Obligation to him for Benefits received..." It goes on in that manner for a couple paragraphs as it sets out the recommendation that all the people in the country should "consecrate themselves to the Service of their Divine Benefactor..." There's no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

What we are supposed to be celebrating with Thanksgiving (winning a war) has gotten muddled up with the Pilgrims' harvest feasts--for the Pilgrims, "Thanksgiving" celebrations didn't involve meals, but prayer and fasting; it was the harvest feast that involved a big meal--and has morphed over the past couple hundred years into a children's mythology taught in schools, the media, and churches. The actual sentiments behind George Washington's and the Continental Congress' Thanksgiving proclamations--prayerful gratitude for this country's independence--are now celebrated on the Fourth of July, but the religious trappings have fallen away from that day.

Here is a quote from the proclamation Lincoln made in 1863; we have as a nation celebrated Thanksgiving every year since. "They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens."

Again no mention of feasting, only of prayer.

I personally believe there is no way to say that Thanksgiving is not a religious holiday, given the government proclamations that established it.

For anyone who is interested, a very basic intro to the history of Thanksgiving in the US is here, in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgiving_(United_States))

.... I was always under the impression that the Pilgrim origins of American Thanksgiving (which Canada does not share) is still an integral part of the way children celebrate the holiday in public schools in the US, and generally in the background of the American celebration. I could be entirely wrong, so feel free to correct me if I am since I've never actually lived in the US myself.

It's become part of the myth over the past couple hundred years that the Pilgrims celebrated Thanksgiving the way it's celebrated today--minus the football, of course! but with lacrosse and weaponry exhibitions--and yes, schoolchildren are inculcated with the "Pilgrims and Indians" story. It is true that in 1621 there was a harvest festival which was shared between the Pilgrims and the Wampanoag Native Americans, and that "fowl" (possibly wild turkey) was featured on the menu. It is also true that in 1622 there was a slaughter of Native Americans before the next harvest festival. It was a terrible repayment of the gift of land, food, and help which had been so freely given.

Popular culture in the US downplays this travesty and repeats the sweetly sentimental "Pilgrims and Indians Thanksgiving" myth incessantly, much to the dismay of anyone who cares about Native American peoples.

I found an amazingly beautiful reclamation of Thanksgiving by a Native American. http://www.alternet.org/story/4391/ (http://www.alternet.org/story/4391/)

For me, the holiday is about the gifts of Native foods--turkey, corn, sweet potatoes, white potatoes, green beans, wild rice, pumpkins, pecans, sugar cane, etc; I celebrate the bounty of this continent and the awesome gift of Native American agriculture to the world. My Thanksgiving is to those who walked these lands before me, those who guided the crops into the foods I love, those whose spirits still sing beneath my feet. My gratitude is to them.

[Rockinonahigh]

Black friday...NOOOOOOO not me,id rather walk thrue hot coals barefoot than be caught in any retail store on that day...talk about crazies out there in masses..yikes!!

[AtLast]

That's odd; I always remember Easter Monday off and I just checked both our local school boards' calendars and, yep, they still have it off.

I just checked the Public Board website (although both are publicly funded, we have one RC and one Public), and the Winter Break is still listed as Christmas Break (!). I had no idea.




Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

[Soon]

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

All I know is we had Easter Monday off when I was a kid going to school in Ontario in the 1970's (and I'm 40) and we still have it now. So, in total, schools have four days off for what is titled, "Easter Break".

I'm not sure when it was added.

Easter Break was entirely separate from what we call March or Spring Break.

[JustJo]

Kids are still getting the Indians and Pilgrims feasting together version of Thanksgiving taught in school....at least in our schools. It's one of those shams that gets taught as history often, and drvies me nuts.

I'm not comfortable with either the Indian/Pilgrim feast or the religious version of the holiday...so in our house we decided to look at the name Thanksgiving, and do just that. We invite friends, we have a beautiful meal, and we go around the table and talk a bit about what each of us are grateful for that year.

For us, it's a day to spend reflecting on the things and people we are grateful for...pure and simple. That just works much better for me. :rrose:

[Soon]

I have to say I am really surprised by the amount of responses who voted to add more religious holidays.

In public institutions, shouldn't the Christian names of existing holidays be phased out -- as opposed to adding more religious observance days to the school calendars?

[Jess]

I think in our area the "Easter Monday" got added to allow a set 4 day weekend, as it used to be a full Mon- Fri ( plus weekend) off for Easter or Spring break. Missed days during the year due to snow changed it so as not to have to add more days on to the end of the year. I recall some years where we had no spring break at all, as we had missed so many snow days. I think it just became an easier solution than not having any break. I think parents agreed to it as they rather enjoyed the 4 day weekends that came with Labor Day and Memorial Day(s).

What still surprises me , in addition to the fact we still even have religious holidays, is that in a great deal of the rural South, we still have approved days off for kids during the first week of hunting season ( specifically deer) and for harvest time ( in re: tobacco). This always tended to be mostly a "boy" holiday ( hunting) as in some schools, half the male population was gone during that week. ( Just an observation...LOL )

I think seasonal breaks are good for students/ teachers and parents not unlike vacation time annually. It still boggles me that the USA places such little value on "vacation" and family time. Most other countries require several weeks of vacation per year and wouldn't you know, they seem to have less social issues than us.

Breaks.. yes.. Religious holidays, I think should be respected and if students have specific holy days in which they cannot attend school, then it should be permitted but not mandated for students who do not share the same religious practices.

Easter.. I prefer eggs and bunnies to crucifixes.. jus sayin..

[Apocalipstic]

I think in our area the "Easter Monday" got added to allow a set 4 day weekend, as it used to be a full Mon- Fri ( plus weekend) off for Easter or Spring break. Missed days during the year due to snow changed it so as not to have to add more days on to the end of the year. I recall some years where we had no spring break at all, as we had missed so many snow days. I think it just became an easier solution than not having any break. I think parents agreed to it as they rather enjoyed the 4 day weekends that came with Labor Day and Memorial Day(s).

What still surprises me , in addition to the fact we still even have religious holidays, is that in a great deal of the rural South, we still have approved days off for kids during the first week of hunting season ( specifically deer) and for harvest time ( in re: tobacco). This always tended to be mostly a "boy" holiday ( hunting) as in some schools, half the male population was gone during that week. ( Just an observation...LOL )

I think seasonal breaks are good for students/ teachers and parents not unlike vacation time annually. It still boggles me that the USA places such little value on "vacation" and family time. Most other countries require several weeks of vacation per year and wouldn't you know, they seem to have less social issues than us.

Breaks.. yes.. Religious holidays, I think should be respected and if students have specific holy days in which they cannot attend school, then it should be permitted but not mandated for students who do not share the same religious practices.

Easter.. I prefer eggs and bunnies to crucifixes.. jus sayin..

I must admit I do enjoy the chocolate and candy crosses...they crack me UP! and I like to roast peeps for smores. Muahahahaha.

Yes, hunting season. At the last place I worked I had several employees give me a copy of the hunting schedule to let me work around it for their work. It is totally accepted...first day of Deer season with submachine gun? Day off. Kids take off from school too. They have a youth hunting days here on TN too. Just great.

I agree that more emphasis in our country should be placed on leisure time. With sports and clubs and homework and all the things kids are expected to get done, they need time to rest and recharge!

[JustJo]

I have to say I am really surprised by the amount of responses who voted to add more religious holidays.

In public institutions, shouldn't the Christian names of existing holidays be phased out -- as opposed to adding more religious observance days to the school calendars?



I voted add more...not because I think we should be observing religious holidays in public institutions, but purely as a pragmatic thing.

I simply can't see our culture eliminating those days off from school over Christmas and Easter. We can call it whatever we like, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. We still take summer off in the public schools...even though virtually none of our children are needed for agricultural help. Kids do need breaks...and those times are traditional.

Since I think it's unlikely that we'll have kids going to school over Christmas and Easter any time soon, then I think it's better that we add in the major holidays of other faiths and recognize them all instead of marginalizing.

I guess what I'm striving for is equality. If they aren't going to all be out, then let's have them all be in. For many, those days off aren't going to be religious holidays, but maybe we can use that as a learning experience as my son's school does...and hopefully that will eventually increase our understanding of each other.

And, just a disclaimer, we don't adhere to any particular faith in our family...so they're all just days off to us. I am not concerned with my son being out of school for any religious holiday of any faith. :rrose:

[SassyLeo]

Isn't it one of those travel day additions? As a kid, we did not have that Monday off. But, I am kinda old and I remember it being added to the Easter Break (wasn't called Spring Break) when my son was elementary school (still called Easter Break or vacation), which was during the 70's. This was in Northern Califonia. Have no idea if this is true for other folks.

I grew up in the South Bay and it was the same for us...and this was also the 70's.

I do not remember having Monday off or maybe it was added to a week after? I will need to ask my mom. And it was still called Easter Break.

[julieisafemme]

I hear you on this but how do you decide what to give off? For example at my child's school in September this year there are 8 days off. These are the Orthodox observances of the Jewish High Holidays. Sometimes there are even more, up to 11 one year! These days rotate through September and October every year. How can a school plan for that? And that is just the Jewish holidays! Also in order to properly keep Jewish dietary laws things need to be kosher. Do we want public schools to be kosher? No of course not!

My child goes to a religious school because that is my choice. I do not expect that my religion would be accomodated in school. Christian holidays are not only institutionalized in schools, they are institutionalized at work and in the financial markets. That is just how it is. I don't mind that. I like to have the same days off as my child.

I'd like holidays to not be called religious ones in public school and for no other religious holidays to be added.


I voted add more...not because I think we should be observing religious holidays in public institutions, but purely as a pragmatic thing.

I simply can't see our culture eliminating those days off from school over Christmas and Easter. We can call it whatever we like, but I don't see it changing anytime soon. We still take summer off in the public schools...even though virtually none of our children are needed for agricultural help. Kids do need breaks...and those times are traditional.

Since I think it's unlikely that we'll have kids going to school over Christmas and Easter any time soon, then I think it's better that we add in the major holidays of other faiths and recognize them all instead of marginalizing.

I guess what I'm striving for is equality. If they aren't going to all be out, then let's have them all be in. For many, those days off aren't going to be religious holidays, but maybe we can use that as a learning experience as my son's school does...and hopefully that will eventually increase our understanding of each other.

And, just a disclaimer, we don't adhere to any particular faith in our family...so they're all just days off to us. I am not concerned with my son being out of school for any religious holiday of any faith. :rrose:

[blush]

Very interesting topic.

We have a long history in public schools of separation of church and state. We have a conflicting arrangement of freedom to practice religion. How do we honor both?

Atlast mentioned more religious education/awareness. As a teacher, I am very uncomfortable with this idea, outside of a cultural context. It can easily blur the line between creating well-informed students, and teachers taking the opportunity to promote one religion over another. It would require a background in religions that teachers simply don't have. The expectation that teachers delve into something as personal as religion is a bit much.

For me, it boils down to what does our society expect from public schools. Ideally, education, right? If our purpose is to education, we should create an atmosphere where race, class and religion are neutralized so the focus is on education. However, each of those components affects not only the student and how the student learns, but the teacher and how the teacher teaches. It becomes a question of honoring each child as an individual where they can learn in a safe environment. Then the focus becomes not on what we do, but how we do it. If we can create an accepting classroom for children where they feel valued for who they are, and if we promote this atmosphere school-wide, then we have made more in-roads for that child than any school holiday (religious or otherwise) will ever be able to do.

[imperfect_cupcake]

All religious holidays should be taken out. And replaced with "half-term" breaks. If someone is a specific religion they can talk to the school about taking their child out of class for a few days to attend their holy days.

[adorable]

I voted "I don't care" and I really don't care about holidays although I celebrate the ones where gifts or chocolate is involved.

My experience with public schools has been that they have certain times off a year - they don't refer to them currently by the Christian name, everything is a "holiday" but not defined. Kids who celebrate other religions are allowed to take off from school without a penalty.

Even if I wanted to pull my kids out of school for a random vacation for a week during the school year I can and they'll still pass.

One thing I think that I would like to see happen is a year round school year. I know as a home owner I pay school taxes, and that they would go up. I would rather pay more for my kids to go to school year round then I would to have to send them to camp for the summer. I was lucky that when my oldest was young enough for camp (and I was a poor single mother going to college & working as a waitress) that I found one sponsored by the little town that we lived in that cost $15 a week!!!!!! I was so lucky. I didn't have the money to send her to camp otherwise. That camp of course no longer exists.

This year, my youngest daughters camp cost me over $1200 for five weeks. (She does the fair thing with 4-H during the other weeks) so my expense was actually lower then what lots of other people have to shell out. I only had to pay for her, what on earth do people do that have more then one kid? Or that can't afford between $160 - $250 a week?? Normally that is paid up front. Even $300 is more then some people can afford to spend to replace a car, much less send their kids to camp. I'm lucky today to be able to afford it. I honestly have no idea what some other families do.

Yet, they have to go to work. The kids have to go somewhere. Preferably a safe somewhere and not home alone. There are daycare subsidies here for people who work that can't afford daycare expenses, but nothing like that for camp. The daycare's are generally full. Year round schooling wouldn't hurt kids at all and would help out parents, especially the working poor.

[Soon]

I voted "I don't care" and I really don't care about holidays although I celebrate the ones where gifts or chocolate is involved.

My experience with public schools has been that they have certain times off a year - they don't refer to them currently by the Christian name, everything is a "holiday" but not defined. Kids who celebrate other religions are allowed to take off from school without a penalty.

Even if I wanted to pull my kids out of school for a random vacation for a week during the school year I can and they'll still pass.

One thing I think that I would like to see happen is a year round school year. I know as a home owner I pay school taxes, and that they would go up. I would rather pay more for my kids to go to school year round then I would to have to send them to camp for the summer. I was lucky that when my oldest was young enough for camp (and I was a poor single mother going to college & working as a waitress) that I found one sponsored by the little town that we lived in that cost $15 a week!!!!!! I was so lucky. I didn't have the money to send her to camp otherwise. That camp of course no longer exists.

This year, my youngest daughters camp cost me over $1200 for five weeks. (She does the fair thing with 4-H during the other weeks) so my expense was actually lower then what lots of other people have to shell out. I only had to pay for her, what on earth do people do that have more then one kid? Or that can't afford between $160 - $250 a week?? Normally that is paid up front. Even $300 is more then some people can afford to spend to replace a car, much less send their kids to camp. I'm lucky today to be able to afford it. I honestly have no idea what some other families do.

Yet, they have to go to work. The kids have to go somewhere. Preferably a safe somewhere and not home alone. There are daycare subsidies here for people who work that can't afford daycare expenses, but nothing like that for camp. The daycare's are generally full. Year round schooling wouldn't hurt kids at all and would help out parents, especially the working poor.

Hi Adorable,

From what I have read--even with year round schooling--there are still significant breaks throughout the school year where parents would need to find alternative means of supervision for their children.

In year round schooling, breaks range from 2 weeks spread throughout the year to 3-5 weeks for summer.



This (http://www.nayre.org/calendar_comparison.htm) calendar shows 3 breaks of 15 days off in b/w 45-30 days of learning and 1 break (summer) of 30 days. With either system, parents will need to find care for their children during the days away from school and, in fact, with the balanced (year round) system, I would think they would need to find more alternative means of supervision throughout the course of the year (as opposed to a chunk in the summer).

According to this (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070811151449.htm) article, year round schooling doesn't add more learning days to the (180 typical school days) calendar, they just spread the breaks more evenly thoughout the school year:

Instead of a three-month summer vacation, year-round schools typically have several breaks of three to four weeks spread throughout the year. The total number of school days and vacation days remains unchanged, but they are distributed more evenly over the calendar.


So, no matter what schedule, parents will still be responsible for finding and/or paying for adequate supervision for their children at various points throughout the year. I wonder--isn't that their responsibility anyway--as parents?

[Julie]

As a parent of three son's - two who are Jewish and one who is Muslim. I found it to be quite hard on the children during these times. The rest of the year, children do not really notice religion differences and quite frankly color. Yet... When the holidays approach it becomes a club of sorts.

If we know this to be true... That it is religion which in so many ways is the culprit to war, then why would we not believe it would effect children the same way, when specific days and treatments are given to specific religions. It creates separatism and not unity.

I vote for removing all religion from the schools, as one poster said - Separation from church and state, as I believe the pledge of allegiance should be removed from school as well. Not all children believe in One God!

Julie

[adorable]

Hi Adorable,

From what I have read--even with year round schooling--there are still significant breaks throughout the school year where parents would need to find alternative means of supervision for their children.

In year round schooling, breaks range from 2 weeks spread throughout the year to 3-5 weeks for summer.



This (http://www.nayre.org/calendar_comparison.htm) calendar shows 3 breaks of 15 days off in b/w 45-30 days of learning and 1 break (summer) of 30 days. With either system, parents will need to find care for their children during the days away from school and, in fact, with the balanced (year round) system, I would think they would need to find more alternative means of supervision throughout the course of the year (as opposed to a chunk in the summer).

According to this (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070811151449.htm) article, year round schooling doesn't add more learning days to the (180 typical school days) calendar, they just spread the breaks more evenly thoughout the school year:

Instead of a three-month summer vacation, year-round schools typically have several breaks of three to four weeks spread throughout the year. The total number of school days and vacation days remains unchanged, but they are distributed more evenly over the calendar.


So, no matter what schedule, parents will still be responsible for finding and/or paying for adequate supervision for their children at various points throughout the year. I wonder--isn't that their responsibility anyway--as parents?





Just because that is one model doesn't mean that is how it has to be done right? But even that model has benefits over the current system.

Sure it is the parents responsibility. Too bad all parents aren't all so equally responsible. There are plenty of single parents who are stuck, not by choice, trying to raise families on a very limited income. There are even two parent families that face hardships every day in this country and are worried about keeping the lights on. Not because they are irresponsible, but because they can't find work or they can and it's min wage.

I would personally, as a parent prefer to figure out shorter periods of time then such a large chunk. As someone who spent most of their life as a member of the working poor, I think that year round schooling - which other countries have done with some success - is a viable option to help parents that don't have the resources and it benefits the child educationally too.

Here is another article on it: http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/459031

I suspect that kids learn more without such large breaks or forget less depending on how you look at it. The structure remains intact without significant adjustments/disruptions for kids. Shorter periods of time where camp would be needed or alternative childcare arrangements saves money. Kids aren't going to learn less this way....and our kids need to be learning more, especially math and science.

[Unndunn]

I voted "I Don't Care" because none of the other options were close to what I think.

I think each school district should set their calendar based on the members of the community they are providing for. They have the data, and I don't think it would be that difficult to build the schedule around the needs of that particular community. If you know that 75% of your students are muslim, it would make sense to schedule that day off since all of those students would be missing the lessons taught on that day.

It was never an issue in my hometown because there was very little diversity. In my senior class in high school (class of '83) there were two jewish students out of 180 students. I know this because we were in the same home room and they would talk about when they would be out for high holidays, etc. I know that the school didn't count the days they took off for high holidays as absences. It wouldn't have been practical to have school on Christmas when about 99% of the student body would be home celebrating.

It's late and I'm way over tired so I shouldn't even be posting. I don't have any kids, but I do work with children, so school schedules do affect my work schedule.

[MsDemeanor]

Too bad we can't just get rid of all this pesky religion silliness, that would solve the issue.

[MsDemeanor]

Let's keep something that looks kinda like Christmas, though. I really love the tree and the pretty ornaments and lights on houses and the excuse to bake lots of cookies, and all the prezzies :) and the Grinch and stuff. Plus, "Peace on earth and good will" is pretty a good message.

[christie]

Just because that is one model doesn't mean that is how it has to be done right? But even that model has benefits over the current system.

Sure it is the parents responsibility. Too bad all parents aren't all so equally responsible. There are plenty of single parents who are stuck, not by choice, trying to raise families on a very limited income. There are even two parent families that face hardships every day in this country and are worried about keeping the lights on. Not because they are irresponsible, but because they can't find work or they can and it's min wage.

I would personally, as a parent prefer to figure out shorter periods of time then such a large chunk. As someone who spent most of their life as a member of the working poor, I think that year round schooling - which other countries have done with some success - is a viable option to help parents that don't have the resources and it benefits the child educationally too.

Here is another article on it: http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/459031

I suspect that kids learn more without such large breaks or forget less depending on how you look at it. The structure remains intact without significant adjustments/disruptions for kids. Shorter periods of time where camp would be needed or alternative childcare arrangements saves money. Kids aren't going to learn less this way....and our kids need to be learning more, especially math and science.

Bratboy was in a school system several years ago that had a "year-round" schedule. For us, in great part due to his autism, it was a huge pain in the ass.

Routine and structure were so very important at that time, it seemed that just as he got settled in, BAM! Time for a two-week break. It would literally take the majority of the next grading period to get him settled back in then BAM! again.

It.wore.us.all.out.

It also increased my child care costs. I was already paying for before/after care and then I had a couple weeks every 6 weeks or so of fulltime care to pay. The summer break, while less in length, still necessitated camp or something. I didn't see it as a positive at all.

I realize this is just one not so great experience with a "year round" schedule and that other folks may not share the same views.

I have difficulty with adding to teachers' burdens. I think they are already overworked, underpaid and appreciated. I think the year round schedule just adds unnecessary issues because I think most children have difficulty in the re-adjustment after school breaks.

[blush]

I voted "I Don't Care" because none of the other options were close to what I think.

I think each school district should set their calendar based on the members of the community they are providing for. They have the data, and I don't think it would be that difficult to build the schedule around the needs of that particular community. If you know that 75% of your students are muslim, it would make sense to schedule that day off since all of those students would be missing the lessons taught on that day.

It was never an issue in my hometown because there was very little diversity. In my senior class in high school (class of '83) there were two jewish students out of 180 students. I know this because we were in the same home room and they would talk about when they would be out for high holidays, etc. I know that the school didn't count the days they took off for high holidays as absences. It wouldn't have been practical to have school on Christmas when about 99% of the student body would be home celebrating.

It's late and I'm way over tired so I shouldn't even be posting. I don't have any kids, but I do work with children, so school schedules do affect my work schedule.

I have to disagree. In a private school, polling a family's religious beliefs and catering to the majority is plausible. In the public school district I teach in, we do not know the religion of our students(unless the student or parent tells us.)

Furthermore, it is public education, not majority education. It is an easy answer to say, majority rules, but does that teach diversity or acceptance? A break schedule that removes ANY religious acknowledgement separates public schools from favoring one religion over another. Public schools should give students days off without penalty for religious observances.

[little man]

i think that since schools are supposed to be educating kids to move on out into the world, it should be structured more like the "real world". specific schedules, year round, planning your vacations. deadlines and responsibilities...and consequences for not meeting them.

i think too much is put on the shoulders of the teachers, when kids refuse to learn or live up to the requirements of getting educated. these young folks need to learn about responsibility and accountability somewhere. i think that by restructuring the school system, that can be managed.

now that my rant is over...the holidays need to be handled just like they would be on any job. i think shift "work" might be also be an option for those kids (like my niece) who would rather be up all night and sleep all day.

ok, i'm done now.

[Soft*Silver]

I have gone full circle on this topic over the years. I use to not want the schools have ANY religious activity, especially holidays. I felt it was not the job of the school to teach religion. And if they were going to do so, they should not teach just ONE religion.

And then the Change hit. Yes, menopause. Dont laugh. I am a different person even from a year ago because of this.

Now I firmly believe our schools must introduce religion to the children, and to be inclusive and celebrate other religious holiday than simply Xtianity. I dont see this so much as a need for religious value, but to introduce diversity to them. But yes, spirituality is very important and while it should not govern our educational system, it should not be excluded from it entirely. When we broke humans down into parts and chambers of a physical being, and then conquered the mind and the way the brain works, we saw no need and even disputed the need for a spiritual base.

diversity in childhood would help raise children into less hateful kids...

[Toughy]

We have a long history in public schools of separation of church and state.

I'm not so sure this is a true statement. I remember prayer in public schools.........and for some reason it's my 5th grade year that sticks in my mind......that would be 1961-62. Today we have the Christian creation story, now called Intelligent Design, being taught as science in public schools. It's no wonder folks think Fake (Fox) News is actually journalism and news.
------
I say no religious holidays in public schools unless you recognize ALL religious holidays and you also need a holiday for atheists.

Take week long breaks in the school year. I don't know if this is still true today but when I was in public school in the 60's, we could have an excused absence (for I think up to a week) to go deer hunting.

I would like to see high school kids learn about the different religions around the world. But that would open up a big ole can of worms that would be impossible to deal with.

[Julie]

I voted "I Don't Care" because none of the other options were close to what I think.

I think each school district should set their calendar based on the members of the community they are providing for. They have the data, and I don't think it would be that difficult to build the schedule around the needs of that particular community. If you know that 75% of your students are muslim, it would make sense to schedule that day off since all of those students would be missing the lessons taught on that day.

It was never an issue in my hometown because there was very little diversity. In my senior class in high school (class of '83) there were two jewish students out of 180 students. I know this because we were in the same home room and they would talk about when they would be out for high holidays, etc. I know that the school didn't count the days they took off for high holidays as absences. It wouldn't have been practical to have school on Christmas when about 99% of the student body would be home celebrating.

It's late and I'm way over tired so I shouldn't even be posting. I don't have any kids, but I do work with children, so school schedules do affect my work schedule.

UnDunn -- It becomes more than missing classes on certain days. My kids grew up in a 90% Christian community. I had to purchase Menorahs and Kinara's for the school. While at home we celebrated everything - it really did effect my children when they would see in the classroom all of the holiday art pertaining to the birth of Christ. It became apparent they were "jews/muslims" during the holiday season, yet simply "kids" the other times of the year. I always thought being raised in a lesbian household would be tough for them -but it wasn't the issue at all - it was their religion and the fact they were a minority which stood out.

My kids also when they were young, were not given the jewish or muslim holidays off - only Christian. What about the other religions who do not celebrate any holidays? While today they might call their concerts Holiday Concerts in some communities - it is still filled with songs of Christianity.

And be damned if you do not stand for the pledge of allegiance. Bottom line, we are not all the same when it comes to our religious beliefs - yet we are all the same when it comes to humanity.

This country has a much deeper and richer Native American History -- Perhaps we should cancel out the "invader" religions and stick to Native American religions and honor those.

Julie

[blush]

I'm not so sure this is a true statement. I remember prayer in public schools.........and for some reason it's my 5th grade year that sticks in my mind......that would be 1961-62. Today we have the Christian creation story, now called Intelligent Design, being taught as science in public schools. It's no wonder folks think Fake (Fox) News is actually journalism and news.
------
I say no religious holidays in public schools unless you recognize ALL religious holidays and you also need a holiday for atheists.

Take week long breaks in the school year. I don't know if this is still true today but when I was in public school in the 60's, we could have an excused absence (for I think up to a week) to go deer hunting.

I would like to see high school kids learn about the different religions around the world. But that would open up a big ole can of worms that would be impossible to deal with.

You're right, Toughy. I'm speaking to the idea that our government entities are religiously neutral. This conflicts with our desire for freedom of worship. Prayer in schools and such is an example of this conflict.

[Corkey]

I'm going to speak from my *me* for a moment. When I was growing up there was no prayer in schools. The pledge of allegiance yes, and that silly phrase of one nation (under god)..., which I skipped over and reverted to the real pledge one nation indivisible.... Now then for me, my parents said I didn't have to follow in their religious backgrounds, they were both different. They said I could learn all of the different theological groups and decide for myself which was a fit for me.
So I did. Now, the school has no business being in the business of religion, it isn't up to the state to teach one religion over another, hense the separation of church and state in the Constitution. I think it is high time we as a society start following that particular clause.

[Glenn]

As founder and designer of the United Gospel Music Center, I included notes in my plans. not to teach classes in Religion, nor to celebrate religious holidays and ceremonies inside, statues, Bibles, etc. It will simply be alive with gospel music all day, along with concerts, and also a music school. There will be only pictures of musicians and composers on the walls.

[Soft*Silver]

I would love to see religion taught in the public school system, not as a form of worship, but as a science or humanities, or even as part of a class in science or humanities or something. Why? Because most kids dont grow up in homes that say "you can pick any religion you like". Instead, they rear their kids to believe their religion is the "IT" religion and dont educate them in alternatives. As a class, they could get introduced to east and west, native and aboriginal, agnostic and aethiest, xtian and jewish.

I dont know about you, but I was in Jr High before I found out not everyone was Catholic...

[Julie]

And I was 20 years old, before I realized that the crosses on the foreheads of people - did not mean they were Manson Followers!

True Story! I was working in a personnel agency at 20 in NYC. I walked out to get my applicant... What I saw terrified me. A room full of people with black crosses on their foreheads. I ran into my bosses office and told him, we had a room filled with Manson Followers. Now how is that for ignorance?!? My first experience with Ash Wednesday.

Point - I agree... My first year of college, I took a world religion course. I always felt it should be taught in primary school.


I would love to see religion taught in the public school system, not as a form of worship, but as a science or humanities, or even as part of a class in science or humanities or something. Why? Because most kids dont grow up in homes that say "you can pick any religion you like". Instead, they rear their kids to believe their religion is the "IT" religion and dont educate them in alternatives. As a class, they could get introduced to east and west, native and aboriginal, agnostic and aethiest, xtian and jewish.

I dont know about you, but I was in Jr High before I found out not everyone was Catholic...

[Stearns]

Teachers barely have time to teach the basics. Many schools have already cut out art, music and even recess because there's not enough time in the school day/week. I'd hate to see them have to try to work religion in there, too; plus, I don't agree with public schools being charged with teaching spirituality. I'd like to see music, art and recess brought back, if there was time. I think those are intrinsically more valuable and do not tread into the territory of what values may or may not be in the home (like religion does).

[Corkey]

Unless all religions are given equal access I don't see it being a good thing.
1. Who would teach this class?
2. Would students be required to attend?
3. What if a parent was opposed to mandatory class?
4. Would atheists be excluded?
5. Would a scientific approach be utilized, i.e., the world wasn't created in 6 days, humans didn't live at the same time as dinosaurs, and tell the real truth of evolution?

I maintain school and church don't belong together. If parents want to teach their children religion, they need to do so at home.
We need critical thinking and the math and sciences to be pushed in school, not mysticism, faith, or speculation of a God. Our children are falling further and further behind the rest of the world. Religion has dumbed down the education of the children of this country.
Oh and most of our founding fathers were Deists not Christians. They placed separation of church and state in the Constitution for a reason.

While I agree that theology is an important undertaking, I oppose it being taught in primary and high school.

[Soft*Silver]

in Jr High art class, my teacher told us to come up with a logo. So I did a Coke logo that said " Jesus, the real thing"

My teacher refused the project. She asked me if I didnt think it was disrespectful to the god I believed in. I said I didnt see the harm in it. She said she was Jewish and while she didnt see Jesus in the same way as my religion, she thought it was "too far out". (of course, this was before the logo for Coke was "Coke, the real thing" came out and became a popular marketing tool)

I blurted out " you dont look jewish" (god I was SO sheltered and ignorant!) and she asked me what someone jewish would look like. We had a really good conversation and I learned SO much from her, including, (rolling my eyes and feeling my embarassment) that Jesus himself was Jewish. No one had taught me that in Sunday School!

I think if when we are young, we are made aware of differences, as we mature, those differences wouldnt matter so much. Its when we are taught to be egocentric and see only our way, that differences make people marks for hatred based in ignorance.

[Stearns]

in Jr High art class, my teacher told us to come up with a logo. So I did a Coke logo that said " Jesus, the real thing"

My teacher refused the project. She asked me if I didnt think it was disrespectful to the god I believed in. I said I didnt see the harm in it. She said she was Jewish and while she didnt see Jesus in the same way as my religion, she thought it was "too far out". (of course, this was before the logo for Coke was "Coke, the real thing" came out and became a popular marketing tool)

I blurted out " you dont look jewish" (god I was SO sheltered and ignorant!) and she asked me what someone jewish would look like. We had a really good conversation and I learned SO much from her, including, (rolling my eyes and feeling my embarassment) that Jesus himself was Jewish. No one had taught me that in Sunday School!

I think if when we are young, we are made aware of differences, as we mature, those differences wouldnt matter so much. Its when we are taught to be egocentric and see only our way, that differences make people marks for hatred based in ignorance.

See, I said ART should be brought back into the schools. This worked out great

[Soon]

I think if parents wish to teach their children the fundamentals of world religions (all of which are man made and patriarchal in nature), they can do it on their own time and dime.

We are talking about the publicly funded education system, right? I thought it was clear that religion is separate -- or should be -- from public institutions.

I'm for devoting more time to developing critical thinking skills.

[Soft*Silver]

I know very little about music making. I am tone deaf and when my daughter tried to teach me to read music, I had a melt down because I just could not get it. So, I have very little understanding of it

but

I know that the note is flat if played without it coming from the part of the person that most would call soul.

I also know that teachers ARE so busy that they have very little time for "extras" and I think we need to adjust priorities so that we value art and music and recreation and spirituality as important as math, reading, science, etc.

And I believe that there is a huge difference between teaching an introduction to religious diversity and promoting and recruiting children to follow A faith system.

I still believe that we could weave diversity in our classes somehow. If the education system does not, then we have an era of children who will grow up knowing how to balance a checkbook but not being able to appreciate the teller at the bank they frequent except as a worker bee and not as a person they are spiritually connected to...


Teachers barely have time to teach the basics. Many schools have already cut out art, music and even recess because there's not enough time in the school day/week. I'd hate to see them have to try to work religion in there, too; plus, I don't agree with public schools being charged with teaching spirituality. I'd like to see music, art and recess brought back, if there was time. I think those are intrinsically more valuable and do not tread into the territory of what values may or may not be in the home (like religion does).

[Corkey]

Spirituality never stopped me from being kind, or respecting another person. It also never made a note of music. Humans do this, not spirit.

[Manul]

I think if parents wish to teach their children the fundamentals of world religions (all of which are man made and patriarchal in nature), they can do it on their own time and dime.

We are talking about the publicly funded education system, right? I thought it was clear that religion is separate -- or should be -- from public institutions.

I'm for devoting more time to developing critical thinking skills.

Amen and Hallelujah!

[Soon]

*Spirituality* is subjective and personal and is best left to parents if they choose to impart a set of beliefs to their children--not the public school system.

Children should not have to be *taught* any set of imaginary beliefs that have been concocted throughout the ages by a teacher in the public school system.

Among the MANY other problems, I can just imagine the child who is brought up in a house raised to believe that no god exists and how sitting through these classes would make them feel.

You want to raise accepting children who are aware of the diverse nature of people's beliefs or non-beliefs? Raise them that way.

[Stearns]

There are many different definitions of spirituality and even more tenets on which spirituality is based. I don't know how it would be decided on which of these it "should" be based: (list borrowed, and these aren't even all of them):
Aboriginal Beliefs
African Diaspora
African Methodist Episcopal
African Religions
Afro-Brazilian
Afro-Caribbean
Agnosticism
Ahmadiyya Movement
Anglicanism
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I know very little about music making. I am tone deaf and when my daughter tried to teach me to read music, I had a melt down because I just could not get it. So, I have very little understanding of it

but

I know that the note is flat if played without it coming from the part of the person that most would call soul.

I also know that teachers ARE so busy that they have very little time for "extras" and I think we need to adjust priorities so that we value art and music and recreation and spirituality as important as math, reading, science, etc.

And I believe that there is a huge difference between teaching an introduction to religious diversity and promoting and recruiting children to follow A faith system.

I still believe that we could weave diversity in our classes somehow. If the education system does not, then we have an era of children who will grow up knowing how to balance a checkbook but not being able to appreciate the teller at the bank they frequent except as a worker bee and not as a person they are spiritually connected to...

[Soft*Silver]

I did.


I stated my opinion and I dont feel like I need to defend it. We obviously disagree. I am ok with disagreeing with someone. Thank you for sharing your thoughts by responding to mine, and for keeping the discussion open to other people's opinions. I am going to move on now as I have nothing else to add to the discussion...

*Spirituality* is subjective and personal and is best left to parents if they choose to impart a set of beliefs to their children--not the public school system.

Children should not have to be *taught* any set of imaginary beliefs that have been concocted throughout the ages by a teacher in the public school system.

Among the MANY other problems, I can just imagine the child who is brought up in a house raised to believe that no god exists and how sitting through these classes would make them feel.

You want to raise accepting children who are aware of the diverse nature of people's beliefs or non-beliefs? Raise them that way.

[Manul]

*Spirituality* is subjective and personal and is best left to parents if they choose to impart a set of beliefs to their children--not the public school system.

Children should not have to be *taught* any set of imaginary beliefs that have been concocted throughout the ages by a teacher in the public school system.

Among the MANY other problems, I can just imagine the child who is brought up in a house raised to believe that no god exists and how sitting through these classes would make them feel.

You want to raise accepting children who are aware of the diverse nature of people's beliefs or non-beliefs? Raise them that way.



And children should not be taught the Earth is between 5,000 and 6,000 years old when education is at stake. I cannot imagine a child being taught to respect that belief.

[Miss Scarlett]

When I was in elementary school (waaaaay back in the 1960s) it was OK for kids who belonged to religions/faith whose religious holidays were not the standard (Christmas/Easter) to take those holidays from school as holidays/excused absences.

[Toughy]

I think if parents wish to teach their children the fundamentals of world religions (all of which are man made and patriarchal in nature), they can do it on their own time and dime.


Yes, all religions are made up by human beings, however, not all of them are patriarchal in nature. The Goddess based traditions appeared long before the mono-theist God based traditions appeared.

-----------------------

For me religion and spirituality are two different things and it seems some folks are using those terms interchangeably. Religion is a set of beliefs and practices about an entity greater than and outside of us, while spirituality is a individual practice and may or may not be based on a religion.

I do think religion and not spirituality should be taught. We can teach about the religion without imposing that religion on students. I do wish it was part of the curriculum of public schools, along with art and music and physical education.

The priorities of this country are still apparently more focused on killing people and making more money, rather than educating people.

[AtLast]

Yes, all religions are made up by human beings, however, not all of them are patriarchal in nature. The Goddess based traditions appeared long before the mono-theist God based traditions appeared.

-----------------------

For me religion and spirituality are two different things and it seems some folks are using those terms interchangeably. Religion is a set of beliefs and practices about an entity greater than and outside of us, while spirituality is a individual practice and may or may not be based on a religion.

I do think religion and not spirituality should be taught. We can teach about the religion without imposing that religion on students. I do wish it was part of the curriculum of public schools, along with art and music and physical education.

The priorities of this country are still apparently more focused on killing people and making more money, rather than educating people.

Mono-theism has been the basis of patriarchal religious beleifs. Although, gender based equality can certainly be traced back to Greek mythology.


Wouldn't this be grand! There are certainly rituals within spiritual contexts- and when you take a good long look... religions of the world have borrowed them from spiritualism.... which is a whole different thing. And actually has levels of devoutness and integration into one's life.

I do believe that one can be both spiritual and religious. And also spiritual without any ties to an organized set of religious doctrine.

I think it is the institutional nature of religion as an organized entity that bothers me the most when applied to public education in the US. It just goes against key tenets of our system of government and leaves out the world in world religion! Makes no sense to me because of the world content of the people that make up the US. Also, the spiritual base of those that are native to this country was just blown apart. And Native American spirituality does have organization to it. This is simply how a culture is able to pass on its spiritual beliefs to its people. But, with major organized religions throughout history, other things like power and control via political systems polluted the spiritual nature within them. accumulation of wealth is always at the bottom of this structure when you study the role of organized religions. Thinking about things like prayer before battle.

I don't use spirituality and religion interchangeably, but, I do find faith to apply to my spiritual realm in relation to what I practice spiritually. But faith to me, has nothing to do with anything institutional in nature. Nothing.

Yes, world religions ought to be studied in schools, but not as faith. And any rituals (like prayer) just don't fit with our constitutional make-up of separation of church and state.

Sometimes it is simply amazing to me to see advocates like those in the so called Tea Party make a case as strict constitutionalist while at the same time declaring Christian values as THE values of the US!

In this whole discussion about holidays and public school calendars, religion and spirituality just shouldn’t be part of the equation at all. And in the US, Christian religions are the time honored back drop which, to me is not OK. then, again, spirituality is deeply personal to me and just isn't about sharing like values. It is about me and what I believe and how I apply my beliefs in my life to have balance internally. I don't know what works for other people and really feel like that is their concern, not mine.

[Soon]

Yes, all religions are made up by human beings, however, not all of them are patriarchal in nature. The Goddess based traditions appeared long before the mono-theist God based traditions appeared.

-----------------------

For me religion and spirituality are two different things and it seems some folks are using those terms interchangeably. Religion is a set of beliefs and practices about an entity greater than and outside of us, while spirituality is a individual practice and may or may not be based on a religion.

I do think religion and not spirituality should be taught. We can teach about the religion without imposing that religion on students. I do wish it was part of the curriculum of public schools, along with art and music and physical education.

The priorities of this country are still apparently more focused on killing people and making more money, rather than educating people.

I was referring to the five major world religions--which I took at a religious school--all of which are patriarchal in nature. We had a whole course in high school based on these five and there was no room to discuss, unfortunately, any religions that were embedded in any matriarchal, Native, or pagan roots.

I do know the difference b/w spirituality and religion -- still feel the of imparting of that knowledge should up to parents if they choose and not be the responsibility of the public institution of education.

[Manul]

This is slightly off topic, but would most of you who favor more religious holidays for public school students also favor additional federal holidays (mind you these are paid holidays) which are religious in orientation?

CRS Report for Congress (http://senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/Federal_Holidays.pdf)

[waxnrope]

Patriarchy is not limited to religion ... much of the law, government, even the degradation of nature has been argued by many feminists to have roots in patriarchy (see, for instance, Caroline Merchant and Rosemary Radford Ruther).

Rather than perpetuate ignorance, I feel that teaching world religions, teaching about patriarchy, racism, gender oppression, heterosexism, and whiteness should be taught as an interdisciplinary subject.

Ack! The self correcting speller on smart phone is maddening. Please excuse my errors.

[Stearns]

I don't think the crime rate in this country would be affected by the teaching of religion in schools. As a matter of fact, the crime rate has dropped with less observance of religion in schools (prayer, celebration of religious holidays). And, which religions would be taught? How would that be decided? And, how would they be taught? From which viewpoint?

[waxnrope]

In my experiences, subjects are taught by those who not only are members of a specific discipline, but who also have academic credentials. In progressive education, and in an interdisciplinary team approach, this CAN work quite well.

[Stearns]

In my experiences, subjects are taught by those who not only are members of a specific discipline, but who also have academic credentials. In progressive education, and in an interdisciplinary team approach, this CAN work quite well.

Waxnrope, how would it be decided which religions to teach? And, from what perspective would they be taught - As history? From a spiritual perspective? Patriarchy v. matriarchy? Oppression v. non-oppression? etc. Are you saying you would need a member from every religion taught to teach it?

[Corkey]

Waxnrope, how would it be decided which religions to teach? And, from what perspective would they be taught - As history? From a spiritual perspective? Patriarchy v. matriarchy? Oppression v. non-oppression? etc. Are you saying you would need a member from every religion taught to teach it?

Not many Native American Shaman who have teaching credentials. This is a huge problem, the white teacher can't teach what they don't know.

[Soon]

Not many Native American Shaman who have teaching credentials. This is a huge problem, the white teacher can't teach what they don't know.

We recently had a white religion dept. head who was *teaching* a unit (gr. 12 World Religion) on Native religion(s). (I am sure she didn't know the multitude of different practices/beliefs for different tribes).

She had the students come into class with their faces painted, had them bang on some drums, and eat some desserts in simulation of her perception of a pow wow.

yep.

[Corkey]

We recently had a white religion dept. head who was *teaching* a unit (gr. 12 World Religion) on Native religion(s). (I am sure she didn't know the multitude of different practices/beliefs for different tribes).

She had the students come into class with their faces painted, had them bang on some drums, and ate some desserts in simulation of her perception of a pow wow.

yep.



WOW, yep pretty offensive.

[waxnrope]

I cannot do multiple quotes from my phone. Your patience is appreciated. I cannot seem to make lengthy replies without the cursor jumping all around. So, succinct, and please ask for clarity.

Before I begin I wish it to be known that my approach to this subject arises from the perspective of a postcolonial scholar and as a POC. I also believe that NOT ALL white people are bad, even though I and my people have been irreparably harmed for centuries by SOME white people. It took a long time for me to get this. I also believe, and have learned through my studies of the multiplicity, the interrelatedness of things. Having said this, I will try my best to respond.

I have taught such a course, developed primarily in conjunction with a First Nation woman. And one can hardly teach every religion known to humankind. One looks upon the the culture/s of place, of the student body, and of the interests of both students and professors. We looked at current issues and prevailing problems. After spending months, and we argued, we presented our proposal. A course suitable in Berkeley, CA, might not be suitable for another city. We spent neatly half a year developing the course with various scholars from different religious backgrounds. We also had Elders and other wise people from SOME lesser known religions give thought to, and participate in the curriculum. We were determined, and it wore us out. It was difficult because we had so few models to guide us. But, yes, it is possible.

The example given by HSIN ... is that ignorant racialization or a religious issue?

[waxnrope]

Sorry, I had to submit my post prematurally. This is driving me batty. I'm just going to stop for a while and listen.
Thank you for the inquiry.

[Corkey]

I cannot do multiple quotes from my phone. Your patience is appreciated. I cannot seem to make lengthy replies without the cursor jumping all around. So, succinct, and please ask for clarity.

Before I begin I wish it to be known that my approach to this subject arises from the perspective of a postcolonial scholar and as a POC. I also believe that NOT ALL white people are bad, even though I and my people have been irreparably harmed for centuries by SOME white people. It took a long time for me to get this. I also believe, and have learned through my studies of the multiplicity, the interrelatedness of things. Having said this, I will try my best to respond.

I have taught such a course, developed primarily in conjunction with a First Nation woman. And one can hardly teach every religion known to humankind. One looks upon the the culture/s of place, of the student body, and of the interests of both students and professors. We looked at current issues and prevailing problems. After spending months, and we argued, we presented our proposal. A course suitable in Berkeley, CA, might not be suitable for another city. We spent neatly half a year developing the course with various scholars from different religious backgrounds. We also had Elders and other wise people from SOME lesser known religions give thought to, and participate in the curriculum. We were determined, and it wore us out. It was difficult because we had so few models to guide us. But, yes, it is possible.

The example given by HSIN ... is that ignorant racialization or a religious issue?


Would you be able to give every school this type of endeavor? I think not, for there aren't many of our Elders left alive. Just because a white person or any one of another ethnic group studies Native Shamanism, it doesn't make them qualified to teach. Ours is just an example. I wouldn't want a Rabbi teaching Taoism, nor a priest teaching Buddhism. These are just a few examples, and I'm sure Pagan doesn't want a Roman Catholic priest issuing examples of Druidism. It just is improper and offensive to those who practice these religions.

ETA: college courses are a totally different subject, primary and high school do not have the resources of a college, nor are the students there as willing participants.
My .02

[waxnrope]

Corey, perhaps I was not clear: NO white person taught about First Nation religion. And, there were mote than one rabbi because, just as with Christianity, there are more than a single belief system. Which, I might add, seems to be a notion on this thread. Universalizing is the master's tool.

The idea was to see if two doctoral students COULD find a way to do it ... and if, in the paucity of our teaching experiences we could, than it should be possible for those who have mote experience to do so. Actually, it is kind of interesting in that you have the same objections da the conservative folk who nearly killed our project.

[waxnrope]

For goodness sakes, we didn't have funds to pay the guest lecturers. We were students, too. A new idea, progressive thinking religious folk ... with openness and creativity, and the desire to make change, to maybe do a good thing, anything can happen

[Corkey]

Corey, perhaps I was not clear: NO white person taught about First Nation religion. And, there were mote than one rabbi because, just as with Christianity, there are more than a single belief system. Which, I might add, seems to be a notion on this thread. Universalizing is the master's tool.

The idea was to see if two doctoral students COULD find a way to do it ... and if, in the paucity of our teaching experiences we could, than it should be possible for those who have mote experience to do so. Actually, it is kind of interesting in that you have the same objections da the conservative folk who nearly killed our project.

My objection is to ANY religion taught in primary or high school, it doesn't belong there. Separation of church and state, period.

[Manul]

My objection is to ANY religion taught in primary or high school, it doesn't belong there. Separation of church and state, period.

And the continued religious observances practiced in today's schools only perpetuates government supported religions.

[Corkey]

From what I have gleaned from this thread is that we are talking about public primary and high school kids being exposed to religion, during their school year, what the names of those holidays are, and how others of differing religions are to be exposed to the primary religion taught, which is christianity. Not college or any other setting. As such my comments stand on the facts of my arguments. I do not want to see my tax dollars being spent on anything pertaining to any particular religion, Period.

[Corkey]

My apologies to the thread starter. I realize you are after poll data. I am speaking from my life experiences.

[Toughy]

From what I have gleaned from this thread is that we are talking about public primary and high school kids being exposed to religion, during their school year, what the names of those holidays are, and how others of differing religions are to be exposed to the primary religion taught, which is christianity. Not college or any other setting. As such my comments stand on the facts of my arguments. I do not want to see my tax dollars being spent on anything pertaining to any particular religion, Period.

If we don't teach about other religions in public schools, how will the kids ever find out? There are plenty of kids graduating from public high school today who think Islam is about devil worship because that is what they are taught at home. Most probably have no idea that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God.

I do think curriculum can be produced that talks about the principles, stories and rituals, without be insulting or offensive. I do think curriculum can be neutral in how it talks about religions. I think it should also include aethism.

But to do that would require actually wanting to move our evolution, as humans, forward. I'm certainly not seeing signs of that in Western culture, as unfettered capitalism runs amok and ruins each of us and the planet we live on

[julieisafemme]

In theory this sounds like a good idea. In practice, as a Jew, I would be concerned that a teacher's biases or lack of knowledge regarding a particular faith might make things worse. Religion is a very personal thing. I don't want anyone instructing my child about any religion in a formal classroom setting unless I know what is being taught.

If such a class were taught it would make the most sense for it to be in high school and as a comparative religion overview. Also I think it would be important to include the concept of spirituality that is not connected to any organized religion or even G-d for that matter.

If we don't teach about other religions in public schools, how will the kids ever find out? There are plenty of kids graduating from public high school today who think Islam is about devil worship because that is what they are taught at home. Most probably have no idea that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God.

I do think curriculum can be produced that talks about the principles, stories and rituals, without be insulting or offensive. I do think curriculum can be neutral in how it talks about religions. I think it should also include aethism.

But to do that would require actually wanting to move our evolution, as humans, forward. I'm certainly not seeing signs of that in Western culture, as unfettered capitalism runs amok and ruins each of us and the planet we live on

[Manul]

From what I have gleaned from this thread is that we are talking about public primary and high school kids being exposed to religion, during their school year, what the names of those holidays are, and how others of differing religions are to be exposed to the primary religion taught, which is christianity. Not college or any other setting. As such my comments stand on the facts of my arguments. I do not want to see my tax dollars being spent on anything pertaining to any particular religion, Period.

My apologies to the thread starter. I realize you are after poll data. I am speaking from my life experiences.

LOL, I think the OP was:

what do you think about adding holidays to school calendars?
I think we need to be more inclusive and add other religious holidays
I think we need to pare it down, we have too many
I think we need to take all religious holidays out of public school calendars
I don't care

But as in any typical conversation, we touched on several various issues in reference to religion. I think the OP specifically referenced the inclusion of Muslim holidays into the school system in cities that have a higher population of those religious beliefs (Muslims seek to add holidays on NY school calendar (http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wrni/news.newsmain/article/0/0/1674365/U.S./Muslims.seek.to.add.holidays.on.NY.school.calendar )).

I find it odd that in the evolution and application of federal holidays (http://senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/Federal_Holidays.pdf) which many schools also use as a basis for their holidays there is no explanation as to why Christmas is a federal holiday as opposed to explanations for other holidays such as Thanksgiving, Columbus Day and the birthday of Martin Luther King Jr. Is it just understood or arrogance?

If we are to be truly American, shouldn't we include Muslim Americans and their holidays?

[Corkey]

If we don't teach about other religions in public schools, how will the kids ever find out? There are plenty of kids graduating from public high school today who think Islam is about devil worship because that is what they are taught at home. Most probably have no idea that Jews, Muslims and Christians all worship the same God.

I do think curriculum can be produced that talks about the principles, stories and rituals, without be insulting or offensive. I do think curriculum can be neutral in how it talks about religions. I think it should also include aethism.

But to do that would require actually wanting to move our evolution, as humans, forward. I'm certainly not seeing signs of that in Western culture, as unfettered capitalism runs amok and ruins each of us and the planet we live on

Because of the Constitution I don't agree that school kids need to learn about any religion, any of them on my tax payer dollar. If they would like to learn about other cultures religions, they have plenty of options. Internet, public libraries, actually going to another cultures place of worship, talking...there's a novel idea..talking to people who aren't like them. It needn't be done with tax dollars. Yes atheism needs to be considered, cause not everyone believes in a God/Goddess, Supreme Being or any other Deity.

[Toughy]

If we are to be truly American, shouldn't we include Muslim Americans and their holidays?

I could ask the same question about Jewish holidays and Hindu days and Buddhist and Pagan (although many are really close to Christian days cuz the Christians ripped them off from us Pagans) and any other religion practiced by any American.

Why is Islam any different than any of the above?

My objection is to ANY religion taught in primary or high school, it doesn't belong there. Separation of church and state, period.

I'm not so sure the Constitution says religion cannot be taught in public schools. The 'religion' part of the 1st Amendment is about establishing a government sanctioned religion and giving the people the right to freely exercise their own religion. (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.)

There is a line at the end of Article 6 that says there shall be No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. Several states actually do have a religious test even though it is clearly prohibited in the Constitution.

[Manul]

If we are to be truly American, shouldn't we include Muslim Americans and their holidays?

I could ask the same question about Jewish holidays and Hindu days and Buddhist and Pagan (although many are really close to Christian days cuz the Christians ripped them off from us Pagans) and any other religion practiced by any American.

Why is Islam any different than any of the above?



I'm not so sure the Constitution says religion cannot be taught in public schools. The 'religion' part of the 1st Amendment is about establishing a government sanctioned religion and giving the people the right to freely exercise their own religion. (Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.)

There is a line at the end of Article 6 that says there shall be No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. Several states actually do have a religious test even though it is clearly prohibited in the Constitution.

I absolutely agree with you in your sentiment expressed why is Islam any different from the above list you posted. It would seem to me the establishment of Muslim school holidays would certainly open precedence for other religions to claim their due holidays.

My personal belief is the government has already sanctioned religion in the schools because Christmas is a school holiday whether it's called Christmas or Winter break.

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/Federal_Holidays.pdf

I'll refer you back to this:
I find it odd that in the evolution and application of federal holidays which many schools also use as a basis for their holidays there is no explanation as to why Christmas is a federal holiday as opposed to explanations for other holidays such as Thanksgiving, Columbus Day and the birthday of Martin Luther King Jr. Is it just understood or arrogance?

[Toughy]

laughin........hell, we can't even come around to having Jewish holidays and Israel is supposed to be our great ally and friend.............and we probably have way more Jewish (religion) folks than Muslims........

It's all kind of stupid..........we should be in school year round.........we are no longer an agrarian/farming nation that needed all hands in the fields.........that's how the school calendar was originally set.........the kids needed to be on the farm working.............and as some have suggested with 1-2-3-4 week breaks scattered throughout the year.

[Apocalipstic]

laughin........hell, we can't even come around to having Jewish holidays and Israel is supposed to be our great ally and friend.............and we probably have way more Jewish (religion) folks than Muslims........

It's all kind of stupid..........we should be in school year round.........we are no longer an agrarian/farming nation that needed all hands in the fields.........that's how the school calendar was originally set.........the kids needed to be on the farm working.............and as some have suggested with 1-2-3-4 week breaks scattered throughout the year.


The kids in some of the counties here go 9 weeks on 3 weeks off. Seems to work well.

I do agree that Christmas should not be a Federal Holiday.

[Manul]

laughin........hell, we can't even come around to having Jewish holidays and Israel is supposed to be our great ally and friend.............and we probably have way more Jewish (religion) folks than Muslims........

It's all kind of stupid..........we should be in school year round.........we are no longer an agrarian/farming nation that needed all hands in the fields.........that's how the school calendar was originally set.........the kids needed to be on the farm working.............and as some have suggested with 1-2-3-4 week breaks scattered throughout the year.


I agree children/students should be in school/learning year round.