Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero

[morningstar55]

There's a heated debate in New York over plans to build a mosque near the World Trade Center site
What do you think???
why can't they build it somewhere else??
why there???
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/20/eveningnews/main6696724.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;3

Opponents call it a mosque that's in the worst possible place.

This site should be turned into a museum," said one New Yorker.

Supporters call it a cultural center in the best spot to encourage understanding.

"If a mosque were built then you guys would know what Islam is about," said mosque advocate Dania Darwish.

At issue, a building in lower Manhattan, the proposed site of a 13-story community center and Islamic prayer space, reports CBS News correspondent Jeff Glor.

"This is the Muslim community's effort to rebuild Manhattan," said Park 51 Project spokeswoman Daisy Khan.

The controversy is that it's only two blocks from ground zero. Tthis week Sarah Palin upped an already raucous debate when on Twitter she called on "peaceful" Muslims to "refudiate" the plan, calling it "a stab in the heart" for America.

Palin's "Refudiate" Tweet on Mosque Draws Fire

Liberal bloggers pounced on the made-up word "refudiate" and Palin retracted her Tweet but not her sentiment, saying Shakespeare "liked to coin new words too."

Grammatical debates aside, New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg has come out firmly in support of the plan. "Everything the United States stands for and New York stands for is tolerance and openness," he said.

"My hope is that [the community center] attracts a lot of people who don't understand Islam," said Valerie Lucznikowska of 9/11 Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow

Tim brown, a former New York City firefighter who lost 93 colleagues on Sept. 11, calls the proposal a slap in the face. He has a message for the developers.

"Stop it. Stop hurting the families. Everyday there are stories in the newspaper. They're hurting the families again. They don't deserve it. These American families have paid too much," he said.

Brown and others, including New York gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio, are calling for an investigation into financing behind the $4.8 million building purchase.

Their concerns, spurred in part by comments the center's imam, Faisel Rauf, made to "60 Minutes" in 2001, just weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks:

"I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," said Rauf.

Citing anti-Americanism, opponents are pushing to have the building declared a landmark making it far more difficult for any Muslim center construction to begin.

[Manul]

There's a heated debate in New York over plans to build a mosque near the World Trade Center site
What do you think???
why can't they build it somewhere else??
why there???
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/20/eveningnews/main6696724.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;3


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Dylan]

Islam and Muslims (as a whole) didn't blow up the World Trade Center anymore than christianity and christians blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

You think anyone in Oklahoma (or the country for that matter) is cryin' because there's a church near the OK Federal Building?

I'll even bet there's LOTS of churches near abortion clinics christians like to blow up in the name of god too. Anyone cryin' about that?



I Doubt It,
Dylan

[Soon]

By objecting to the building of this 15 story community center--with a gym, swimming pool, performance center and mosque--there is an implication that one believe all Muslims are terrorists and the Muslim community--at large--is to be blamed for 9/11.



Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims: (http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm)

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

[PapaC]

You beat me to the punch. TY, Dylan.


Islam and Muslims (as a whole) didn't blow up the World Trade Center anymore than christianity and christians blew up the Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

You think anyone in Oklahoma (or the country for that matter) is cryin' because there's a church near the OK Federal Building?

I'll even bet there's LOTS of churches near abortion clinics christians like to blow up in the name of god too. Anyone cryin' about that?



I Doubt It,
Dylan

[Medusa]

These whole "Mosque that shouldnt be there" debates are springing from racism and intolerance and helping to foster a very unhealthy "us" versus "them" mentality.
What is sad is that the "us" who are fighting so diligently to keep the Trade Center ground as "America - Fuck Yeah" as possible want people to believe that you are "unAmerican" or "unChristian" or whatever if you think that it's racist to make a sqwuak over a Mosque being built near the grounds.
The even sadder thing is that the "them" that are supposed to be this evil mass-killing entity of "Down with America!!" lost friends and family in the bombings as well (since not everyone who worked at the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, or who was on one of the planes was the lily-white hyper-Christians that are portrayed in the ridiculously cheesy "The Statue of Libbertee is shakin' her fi-yust!!" country songs and propaganda that is so rampant since that time).

"They" are not the enemy.

Ignorance is.

[UofMfan]

While I understand the sentimental impact if this, I cannot understand the blatant ignorance and racism that would make this even an issue.

For the eight Bush years 9/11 was used as a tool to backtrack the US in Human Rights, Civil Liberties, etc. The scare tactics and the racial profiling that followed are still used today, as is evident by this thread.

I agree with Dylan, Muslims were not responsible for 9/11, and his analogy it is right on target.

I also want to thank Manul for bringing up an excellent point.

Funny how racism makes all of us throw the very laws the US was built on out the window.

[Glenn]

I designed a beautiful memorial to be built there as well as others, and I shall believe to my death that a memorial should stay there.

[Linus]

It's not a mosque but a community center (the main purpose of the facility). I think it would open up discussion between the Christian side of the US and others. There are many interfaith discussions that happen without MSM views. It may be worthwhile to start letting the community have those discussions.

I have to agree with Dylan.

[dreadgeek]

I designed a beautiful memorial to be built there as well as others, and I shall believe to my death that a memorial should stay there.

What better memorial could there be for those that died than a community center that would fly in the face of the what people on *both* sides would be the preferred result. The jihadis would like nothing more than for this Muslim community center *not* be built. If it isn't, then they can look at their brethren and say, "see! Did we not tell you that all of America's promise of religious freedom does not apply to Muslims? Did we not try to pull the scales from your eyes that America, despite the honeyed words, does not truly welcome diversity? Here some of our brethren in America wanted to build a community center in a city where many Muslims live and it could not be done. Now do you believe that we must strike against America?" There are Christians who do not want this community center built because having a community center normalizes Muslims. It is one thing to get people to fear and ostracize Sharif, when he is nothing more than a collection of stereotypes made from a pastiche of movies from Lawrence of Arabia to the latest summer action shoot-em-up. It is quite another thing to get people to fear and ostracize Faud, the young father who takes his girls to the community center twice a week for swimming and who sits in the park playing chess.

The groups concerned about sharia law in America (which is just a smokescreen to justify a conclusion they've already arrived at) have as their selling point fear of Muslims. What's amazing about this is that it's not *just* this community center. In Tennessee there's a similar flap over a different Muslim community center. So what happens in New York has potential ramifications across the country *beyond* the public relations stupidity that denying the permit would be. If New York City, the most diverse city in the country, does not permit this community center then the folks in Tennessee will be emboldened in not permitting a community center or mosque built in their backyards. And that can spread like a wave.

One fascinating thing is that this is make all of these folks who are so quick to pronounce themselves more Constitutional-than-thou, is that it is forcing them to come out and say what many of us presumed they have meant all along vis a vis the Establishment clause. While the words are "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion..." what they want it to mean is "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of Christian religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." In other words what they mean by 'freedom of religion' is really, "freedom to practice the sect of Christianity you wish". But they don't mean freedom of religion.

Ultimately, if this community center doesn't get built both groups of fanatics-Christian and Muslim--will get precisely what it is they are hoping for. I can think of no greater memorial to those who were sacrificed at the altar of intolerance than to build this community center.

[Melissa]

I think the mosque should be built. Denying this mosque goes against the constitution and religious freedom. Denying this mosque tells the world that the US blames all Muslims and lumps them altogether as terrorists and people to be feared. If a mosque cannot be built within two blocks of the trade center site then where can it be built? Within a mile, 10 miles, 100 miles? Banned altogether from the state of New York? Yes, this might be slippery slope thinking, but if two blocks is too close then why isn't a mile too close. The mosque should be built.

Melissa

[Glenn]

Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.

[Apocalipstic]

I believe in division of church and state. It should have no bearing what buildings go in 2 blocks from the site.

[morningstar55]

what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids??
i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views.

wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York..

Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York

[dreadgeek]

Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.

Why? Isn't there going to be a memorial where WTC 1 and 2 stood? Isn't that whole area supposed to be one big memorial? If so (and that's my understanding of the situation although I might be wrong) why is the site of the original WTC not memorial enough? Am I missing something?

[Medusa]

Yes Aj I agree that a learning center is good. A memorial should be built there too.

Popcorn - Are you advocating for a memorial at the site of WTC disaster? Or at the site that is 2 blocks away where folks want to build the community center?

[The_Lady_Snow]

what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids??
i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views.

wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York..

Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York


What sides are there to look at??? Why can't a Mosque be built or even a community center or hell something anything with Muslim ties?

Why? We have churches at every block corner, why can't all of us who do not follow Christian oppression be allowed to build a place wherever there is a space?

Extremists were responsible for 9-11 I just don't understand how people don't get this.

Honestly there is no all sides kinds of views, because that day ALL of us regardless of race, religion or gender felt it, were impacted, and remember that very day that our government used a tragedy to install fear into Americans about someone who is not WHITE nor Christian. THAT is the reality of it and it's still crippling this country to this very day.

[Apocalipstic]

Why? Isn't there going to be a memorial where WTC 1 and 2 stood? Isn't that whole area supposed to be one big memorial? If so (and that's my understanding of the situation although I might be wrong) why is the site of the original WTC not memorial enough? Am I missing something?

Likely she meant at actual Ground Zero, aren't they still arguing what to build there?

Thats cool Popcorn submitted a drawing! :)

[Apocalipstic]

What sides are there to look at??? Why can't a Mosque be built or even a community center or hell something anything with Muslim ties?

Why? We have churches at every block corner, why can't all of us who do not follow Christian oppression be allowed to build a place wherever there is a space?

Extremists were responsible for 9-11 I just don't understand how people don't get this.

Honestly there is no all sides kinds of views, because that day ALL of us regardless of race, religion or gender felt it, were impacted, and remember that very day that our government used a tragedy to install fear into Americans about someone who is not WHITE nor Christian. THAT is the reality of it and it's still crippling this country to this very day.

That ridiculous and scary Patriot Act!

We still don't have those rights back.

[Dylan]

what religion was .. Timothy McVeigh ?? should maybe what ever his was , should we have the same view on what is being built in OK , where he blew up that building and killed all them people and kids??
i dont think all muslims are to blame, ...just like are all catholics to blame to be child molestors seeing how there's a lot of priest getting caught these days?? and have not read anywhere that they are foreigners either.. im not rooting for them or this in NYC but im just trying to look at this from all views.

wait.... just found McVeighs religion.. Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York..

Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York

And why is it we all weren't aware from the beginning what McViegh's religion was? Why is it the media never shouted out, "OMG, We're Under Attack From HomeGrown Christians! Run For Your Lives!"

Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...)

But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question.


Dylan

And how come there was never any (excused) panic after Oklahoma City in which (white) people ran around beating and killing people who 'looked like' the bomber (i.e. militaristic white males with brownish hair worn in a 'high and tight' style...you know, cuz that's what allllllllllllll xtian bombers look like, and they should all be treated like the terrorists they truly are)

[Apocalipstic]

And why is it we all weren't aware from the beginning what McViegh's religion was? Why is it the media never shouted out, "OMG, We're Under Attack From HomeGrown Christians! Run For Your Lives!"

Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...)

But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question.


Dylan

Ummm.

Sara Palin?

[Dylan]

Sara Palin?

Sara Palin = Christian = Terrorist


Dylan...using the same logic that all X religion-practicers are responsible for the actions of a few of the X religion-practicers

'Cuz lest we forget, Obama's a terrorist too since he's (not) Muslim...oh annnnnnnnnnd is middle name is Hussein...that makes him a terrorist dictator!

[Manul]

Let's not forget:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P_8dSnKiaD4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P_8dSnKiaD4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[dreadgeek]

Dylan:

As I love pointing out (and hate that I live in a world where it is true TO be pointed out):

Each white Christian who performs a given act of violence is *that* white Christian. A singular incident unconnected to anything or anyone else. The KKK is N singular, bad apples, none of whom are connected to one another and all of them coincidentally gathering under the banner of that organization, while at the same time being *completely* isolated from one another.

Every non-white and every non-Christian who performs a given act of violence is ALL of that group, X, and all other members of that group either understand why the action took place and/or is even now walking over their own parents to get in line to be the *next* member of that group X to perform such an act.

No one mentioned McVeigh's religion because he wasn't *really* a Christian--no matter what he might have said about himself and, looked at in the correct frame, wasn't *really* a white man either. We can know this because no Christian or white man could *ever* do the acts that McVeigh did and since we know he performed those acts, we can assume that he was neither white nor Christian. On the other hand, John Lee Malvo (the DC sniper) is all black men and the only reason that, for instance, my father wasn't *also the DC sniper is that he was already deceased by that point and even *then* it might be that all the black men who were already dead rose from the grave in order to queue up to be the next freeway sniper.

I know, I know, it looks like a double-standard but only when viewed in the wrong (read liberal) light. Actually a consistent standard is being applied to all non-whites and non-Christians and a consistent standard is being applied to all white men who are Christians so there's no double-standard! Isn't FOX news logic fun?



And why is it we all weren't aware from the beginning what McViegh's religion was? Why is it the media never shouted out, "OMG, We're Under Attack From HomeGrown Christians! Run For Your Lives!"

Why is it the media, people, Amuricans, etc NEVER went on some rampage about Catholocism, Christianity, The Bible, etc? And how come NO ONE is up in arms about the fact that there's a church right next to where the Federal Building was, AND there's a church within one block...that's TWOOOOOOOOO churches! The horrah of it all...having churches of the bomber's affiliation RIGHT next to the site! How disrespectful (to whom I don't really know, but bigotry and prejudice [and xtian privilege] doesn't always have to be logical or rational, so...)

But now that I've brought it up...to whom is it 'disrespectful' if there's a Muslim community center or mosque or a Muslim ANYTHING really? WHO is being disrespected? Serious question.


Dylan

And how come there was never any (excused) panic after Oklahoma City in which (white) people ran around beating and killing people who 'looked like' the bomber (i.e. militaristic white males with brownish hair worn in a 'high and tight' style...you know, cuz that's what allllllllllllll xtian bombers look like, and they should all be treated like the terrorists they truly are)

[dreadgeek]

Sara Palin = Christian = Terrorist


Dylan...using the same logic that all X religion-practicers are responsible for the actions of a few of the X religion-practicers

'Cuz lest we forget, Obama's a terrorist too since he's (not) Muslim...oh annnnnnnnnnd is middle name is Hussein...that makes him a terrorist dictator!

Dylan:

I think you're on to something. I mean, what *better* disguise for an Islamo-fascist, socialist, terrorist dictator what hate the Baby Jesus (tm) than as a Christian President of the United States? I mean, has anyone ever *seen* a picture of Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden in the same room at the same time? No! Coincidence? I think not. Obama is tall. Osama bin Laden is tall. Bin Laden is about 50 and Obama is about 50. So how likely is it that these are two different men? I'd say those chances are 4 billion to 1!
I mean, have you ever seen Obama drive a Chevy? No. Have you ever seen Obama play baseball? No! Have you ever seen Obama eat apple pie? No!

I'd also like to see Obama answer questions about the disappearance of the planet Alderan about a quarter century ago. Darth Vader's voice--done by a black man. Obama--black man. And Grand Moff Tarkin was tall--and again, Obama is tall. Too many coincidences, I think that Obama is probably behind the construction of the first Death Star.

Cheers
Aj
(The sad thing is that there's no parody any of us could post that would even *begin* to sound over-the-top compared to actual Tea Party/Republican rhetoric.)

[Dylan]

Aj,

It's all so crystal clear now! I don't know how I could have missed all of this before

You're sooooo right! I never HAVE seen Obama and bin Laden in the same place at the same time!

Obama's birth year is also 1961...mhmmm, that's right

If we move the numbers around and invert the 6 that makes it 9am 911!


DaVinci Must Have Known Of This!,
Dylan...bets there's a church somewhere near the White House!

[Cowboi]

Let's not forget:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/P_8dSnKiaD4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/P_8dSnKiaD4&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>




the Rev. Jerry Fartwell, makes me wanna hurl...........

[Apocalipstic]

Dylan:

As I love pointing out (and hate that I live in a world where it is true TO be pointed out):

Each white Christian who performs a given act of violence is *that* white Christian. A singular incident unconnected to anything or anyone else. The KKK is N singular, bad apples, none of whom are connected to one another and all of them coincidentally gathering under the banner of that organization, while at the same time being *completely* isolated from one another.

Every non-white and every non-Christian who performs a given act of violence is ALL of that group, X, and all other members of that group either understand why the action took place and/or is even now walking over their own parents to get in line to be the *next* member of that group X to perform such an act.

No one mentioned McVeigh's religion because he wasn't *really* a Christian--no matter what he might have said about himself and, looked at in the correct frame, wasn't *really* a white man either. We can know this because no Christian or white man could *ever* do the acts that McVeigh did and since we know he performed those acts, we can assume that he was neither white nor Christian. On the other hand, John Lee Malvo (the DC sniper) is all black men and the only reason that, for instance, my father wasn't *also the DC sniper is that he was already deceased by that point and even *then* it might be that all the black men who were already dead rose from the grave in order to queue up to be the next freeway sniper.

I know, I know, it looks like a double-standard but only when viewed in the wrong (read liberal) light. Actually a consistent standard is being applied to all non-whites and non-Christians and a consistent standard is being applied to all white men who are Christians so there's no double-standard! Isn't FOX news logic fun?


Ohhhhhhhhh, but I saw on a poster that president Obama is the new KKK.

Seriously, I agree that it is maddening that if any one POC acts a certain way then every POC must by default be the same.

Things are so illogically stupid right now....maybe they always have been? but somehow the present always seems stupidest!

[morningstar55]

Hey everyone........ hope no ones mad at me for starting this thread.....
i just heard and read about it this morning on the news and thought it might be a good topic for discussion...... just sayin

[AtLast]

Dylan:

I think you're on to something. I mean, what *better* disguise for an Islamo-fascist, socialist, terrorist dictator what hate the Baby Jesus (tm) than as a Christian President of the United States? I mean, has anyone ever *seen* a picture of Barack Obama and Osama bin Laden in the same room at the same time? No! Coincidence? I think not. Obama is tall. Osama bin Laden is tall. Bin Laden is about 50 and Obama is about 50. So how likely is it that these are two different men? I'd say those chances are 4 billion to 1!
I mean, have you ever seen Obama drive a Chevy? No. Have you ever seen Obama play baseball? No! Have you ever seen Obama eat apple pie? No!

I'd also like to see Obama answer questions about the disappearance of the planet Alderan about a quarter century ago. Darth Vader's voice--done by a black man. Obama--black man. And Grand Moff Tarkin was tall--and again, Obama is tall. Too many coincidences, I think that Obama is probably behind the construction of the first Death Star.

Cheers
Aj
(The sad thing is that there's no parody any of us could post that would even *begin* to sound over-the-top compared to actual Tea Party/Republican rhetoric.)


Yup! nothing we could formulate that is that over-the-top! Sometimes, I so wish that Obama was not the first African American president.... all of this insanity to weed through at a time in our history when a mind such as his and the ability to think through things and hear others is so needed. Sure, I have some times of disagreement with him, but, I am so thankful to have someone with an actual brain as well as a conscience as president! And a mind that remains hungry for knowledge and seeing what is on the other side.

Although it makes me nuts to think that he very well could end up a one-term president, I honestly believe that what he has accomplished thus far, will make a difference. A little tired of even the left’s lack of acknowledgement of some of the key policies his administration has gotten through. If the left would get going as in 2008, the threat of Obama having to deal with even more NO in Congress and losing more momentum would not be happening. Where are the Yes WE Can supporters?

No matter how I try to understand some of Obama’s methods, I know that there is a piece I and all non-African American people don’t get, and never will. Can’t get in terms of how and why he measures his steps so critically and carefully. We will see something similar when a woman, a Latino, or any other POC is elected as president for the first time.

[dreadgeek]

""I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," said Rauf. "

I don't understand why this is such a controversial statement. Unless someone is wedded to the idea that a bunch of "crazy Arabs" just decided that since there wasn't anything good on TV, they'd plan an attack on the US it seems to me to be painfully self-evident that US policies in the Middle East, Southeast Asia and the Arabian Peninsula might have *something* to do with other people's actions. That's not a justification and what Mr. Rauf said wasn't justification--he was merely pointing out the obvious in the name of trying to understand why things happen. Given that bin Laden had made it very, painfully clear in the late 90's that the presence of thousands of troops on Saudi Arabian soil was unacceptable and that to the end of changing that he was exhorting the shedding of American blood, I cannot understand why anyone would be surprised by the idea that Al Qaeda had a *reason* for attacking the US. Not saying it was a good reason but it was a reason nevertheless.

Cheers
Aj


There's a heated debate in New York over plans to build a mosque near the World Trade Center site
What do you think???
why can't they build it somewhere else??
why there???
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/20/eveningnews/main6696724.shtml?tag=mncol;lst;3

Opponents call it a mosque that's in the worst possible place.

This site should be turned into a museum," said one New Yorker.

Supporters call it a cultural center in the best spot to encourage understanding.

"If a mosque were built then you guys would know what Islam is about," said mosque advocate Dania Darwish.

At issue, a building in lower Manhattan, the proposed site of a 13-story community center and Islamic prayer space, reports CBS News correspondent Jeff Glor.

"This is the Muslim community's effort to rebuild Manhattan," said Park 51 Project spokeswoman Daisy Khan.

The controversy is that it's only two blocks from ground zero. Tthis week Sarah Palin upped an already raucous debate when on Twitter she called on "peaceful" Muslims to "refudiate" the plan, calling it "a stab in the heart" for America.

Palin's "Refudiate" Tweet on Mosque Draws Fire

Liberal bloggers pounced on the made-up word "refudiate" and Palin retracted her Tweet but not her sentiment, saying Shakespeare "liked to coin new words too."

Grammatical debates aside, New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg has come out firmly in support of the plan. "Everything the United States stands for and New York stands for is tolerance and openness," he said.

"My hope is that [the community center] attracts a lot of people who don't understand Islam," said Valerie Lucznikowska of 9/11 Families for a Peaceful Tomorrow

Tim brown, a former New York City firefighter who lost 93 colleagues on Sept. 11, calls the proposal a slap in the face. He has a message for the developers.

"Stop it. Stop hurting the families. Everyday there are stories in the newspaper. They're hurting the families again. They don't deserve it. These American families have paid too much," he said.

Brown and others, including New York gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio, are calling for an investigation into financing behind the $4.8 million building purchase.

Their concerns, spurred in part by comments the center's imam, Faisel Rauf, made to "60 Minutes" in 2001, just weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks:

"I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened," said Rauf.

Citing anti-Americanism, opponents are pushing to have the building declared a landmark making it far more difficult for any Muslim center construction to begin.

[AtLast]

As is always the case, this religion is being singled out as the culprit. It isn't. The people that were responsible for 9/11 were a fringe group just like Christian Tea Party whackos and others commit violent acts against intitutions.

Also, Muslims died in 9/11...... as did people from various faiths and non-religious backgrounds it was a World Trade Center.... in a city that has always been a key melting-pot in the US.

It is exactly this kind of thinking that got the US attacked in the first place....

[Apocalipstic]

I am still not 100% convinced that the US Govt at the time had no hand/knowledge in/of the 911 attack.

Think of all the rights we have lost since then. The fear mongering.

I knew the second W was elected that we would be going to war. I sat in the middle of my living room crying, wondering how they would frame it.

[dreadgeek]

As is always the case, this religion is being singled out as the culprit. It isn't. The people that were responsible for 9/11 were a fringe group just like Christian Tea Party whackos and others commit violent acts against intitutions.

Also, Muslims died in 9/11...... as did people from various faiths and non-religious backgrounds it was a World Trade Center.... in a city that has always been a key melting-pot in the US.

It is exactly this kind of thinking that got the US attacked in the first place....

Well, I'm not sure that it's this kind of thinking that got us attacked. Al Qaeda had a reason--and it was a policy-based reason--but it was not so much our internal dynamics than it was our external actions. The thing is, bin Laden made it *clear* why he felt the US should be attacked in a 1998 fatwa. In that statement, it was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, our complete and utter control of the waters in the Persian Gulf, our support for Israel and our propping up of some of the most brutal dictators around while talking about democracy and human rights.

The great strategic stupidity of the Bush administration is that in invading Iraq, they made bin Laden right that the United States would, without provocation, invade a Muslim nation and he played right into it making bin Laden appear both correct *and* prescient. One should not let terrorists dictate the terms upon which foreign policy is played out and the Bush administration certainly did that.

They don't hate us for our freedom and they don't hate us for generally libertine ways. I'm not even sure that they hate us--they take a very dim view of our government's foreign policy but most international surveys I've seen on the topic suggest that both America (the ideas of our nation) and Americans (all us ordinary schmucks) are actually thought of pretty well globally. US government foreign policy? Not so much with the love.

I think that there are things we could do that would actually go quite a ways toward giving us firmer ground to stand on, defang some of the terrorist rhetoric and help us withdraw from our empire at the same time. There's no strategic region to be in Saudi Arabia so we should leave. While we're on our way out the door we should cut the House of Saud loose and let them work it out with their own people. We should, in fact, cut loose Mumbarak in Egypt and perhaps King Abdullah in Jordan unless they hold free, fair and UN monitored elections. I'm not suggesting these things because I think that they will prevent another attack--I don't. I'm suggesting we do these things because they're strategically smart things to do. The fact that these moves would likely reduce the energy behind the next attack is something we get 'for free'. Oh and it goes without saying that we should get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

If I can make a suggestion--when thinking about why the opposing force is doing what they are doing, try to get in their heads. You can start by looking at why your nation does things. Have we *ever* attacked another nation because we didn't like the way they ran their internal politics? No. Not that I am aware of, at least. We *have*, on the other hand, attacked other nations in pursuit of strategic policy goals. Assume that the OpFor is at least intelligent and sane enough to operate in much the same manner.

Cheers
Aj

[waxnrope]

In my opinion, 911 served to accelerate the U.S.'s return to ugliness since the Reagan years. Nothing surprises me any more :|

[Toughy]

I have no issues at all with this Islamic Community Center being built. I am ever amazed that any thinking person would object.


just cuz.....

If memory serves.......Tim McVeigh was no longer a Catholic. When he went searching for who he was after his military service, he ended up with white separatist christian militia......that is who all those whack wing nut militia folk are: fundamentalist separatist christians.

Rachel Maddow did a great special on Tim McVeigh. Most of it was the words of Tim McVeigh.....he did extensive interviews with some press guy before he was murdered by the State.

(I do not think he should have been murdered by the State..........I do not believe in the death penalty under any circumstances for any human being........it's state-sanctioned murder and makes us no better than the person we murdered.........why should we as a country crawl in that gutter? no response necessary...it's a rhetorical question.)

[AtLast]

Well, I'm not sure that it's this kind of thinking that got us attacked. Al Qaeda had a reason--and it was a policy-based reason--but it was not so much our internal dynamics than it was our external actions. The thing is, bin Laden made it *clear* why he felt the US should be attacked in a 1998 fatwa. In that statement, it was the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, our complete and utter control of the waters in the Persian Gulf, our support for Israel and our propping up of some of the most brutal dictators around while talking about democracy and human rights.

The great strategic stupidity of the Bush administration is that in invading Iraq, they made bin Laden right that the United States would, without provocation, invade a Muslim nation and he played right into it making bin Laden appear both correct *and* prescient. One should not let terrorists dictate the terms upon which foreign policy is played out and the Bush administration certainly did that.

They don't hate us for our freedom and they don't hate us for generally libertine ways. I'm not even sure that they hate us--they take a very dim view of our government's foreign policy but most international surveys I've seen on the topic suggest that both America (the ideas of our nation) and Americans (all us ordinary schmucks) are actually thought of pretty well globally. US government foreign policy? Not so much with the love.

I think that there are things we could do that would actually go quite a ways toward giving us firmer ground to stand on, defang some of the terrorist rhetoric and help us withdraw from our empire at the same time. There's no strategic region to be in Saudi Arabia so we should leave. While we're on our way out the door we should cut the House of Saud loose and let them work it out with their own people. We should, in fact, cut loose Mumbarak in Egypt and perhaps King Abdullah in Jordan unless they hold free, fair and UN monitored elections. I'm not suggesting these things because I think that they will prevent another attack--I don't. I'm suggesting we do these things because they're strategically smart things to do. The fact that these moves would likely reduce the energy behind the next attack is something we get 'for free'. Oh and it goes without saying that we should get the hell out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

If I can make a suggestion--when thinking about why the opposing force is doing what they are doing, try to get in their heads. You can start by looking at why your nation does things. Have we *ever* attacked another nation because we didn't like the way they ran their internal politics? No. Not that I am aware of, at least. We *have*, on the other hand, attacked other nations in pursuit of strategic policy goals. Assume that the OpFor is at least intelligent and sane enough to operate in much the same manner.

Cheers
Aj

Oh, I see what your saying. I just feel that the US has always been so Christian focused, it has influenced how we treat, interact and make policy about non-Christian nations which has caused so much alienation. The only country I can think of in which this different is Israel.

I also feel that the US lacks the capcity to understand governments in which religion is central to policy and their societal structures and values. I may not agree with them, either, especially in terms of the role and treatment of women in particular, but, I think our Christian focus (blindness?) keeps us from contributing to the kinds of things that can bring glocal piece. Although, this just isn't a simple situation. Looking at oil for example, certainly brings up a lot of things and most certainly was in play during Dub'ya's terms! Cheny as VP made that very clear.

[dreadgeek]

Oh, I see what your saying. I just feel that the US has always been so Christian focused, it has influenced how we treat, interact and make policy about non-Christian nations which has caused so much alienation. The only country I can think of in which this different is Israel.

I also feel that the US lacks the capcity to understand governments in which religion is central to policy and their societal structures and values. I may not agree with them, either, especially in terms of the role and treatment of women in particular, but, I think our Christian focus (blindness?) keeps us from contributing to the kinds of things that can bring glocal piece. Although, this just isn't a simple situation. Looking at oil for example, certainly brings up a lot of things and most certainly was in play during Dub'ya's terms! Cheny as VP made that very clear.

I don't know that we've always had this Christian focus. If you read the Treaty of Tripoli, the US government under Jefferson bent over backward to show that the United States wasn't a Christian nation (it actually says that in the treaty) and has no quarrel with the "Musselmen" (the 19th century term for Muslims). It's only been since the Cold War that the US got so obsessed that we started moving in directions that can only be described as theocratic.

For very good reasons--and reasons I am actually enthusiastically in support of--Westerners (this isn't an American problem) have a bit of trouble understanding states run by religions because Western Christendom made a pretty clear break between church and state after the European Enlightenment. That simply has not happened in the Middle East and in parts of Southeast Asia so we're certainly going to have problems understanding why, for instance, Iran works the way it does. In fact, of the Western nations America is probably *best* positioned to understand it because we are currently actively flirting with the idea of religious-rule or at least sectarian rule with a veneer of secularism just to keep up appearances for the neighbors. It is only in the United States that, for instance, a candidate who--as far as we can tell from her public pronouncements--really believes that there are demons and that prayer can combat them and have that person be viable as a political figure. Sarah Palin wouldn't last and certainly wouldn't be a power-broker in, say, Sweden but she is viable in the 2012 GOP primary. It seems to me that France, England, Germany *all* would have a much more difficult time understanding the role that the belief "God says our nation should do X" or "God says our society should be ordered thusly" has in public policy than the United States. Those nations are pretty thoroughly secular while the United States has a non-trivial population that *genuinely* believe that Jesus is returning soon, that people will be raptured up when he does show up, and that the state of Israel must exist so that the Jews therein can be 'perfected' or, failing that, wiped out to hasten the battle of Armageddon. We have people in the last administration who believe that so fervently, in fact, that they designed foreign policy around that belief!

The American problem with understanding, for instance, Iran has much more to do with religious differences than in not understanding how the nominally secular government of Iran could be beholden to the religious authorities. We're most of the way there already and there are any number of public policies whose proponents can *only* justify them in terms of religion (prayer in schools, anti-Darwinism in schools, anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-birth control and non-fact-based sex education being the main examples).

I'm curious, what do you think a less Christian focused view would do for the cause of world peace?

Cheers
Aj

[betenoire]

On topic. Anybody who opposes the building of this community centre has some -serious- self-examination to do.

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

More off topic. I so dig that the Holy Trilogy got dragged into this discussion. Some of you people are such giant nerds it makes me want to lick your eyeballs.

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.

[JustJo]

Just to go back to the original question....

I am in favor of allowing this community center and mosque to be built. While I understand that the thought hurts many people, I believe that the only way to heal those wounds is through understanding and making connections.

As many here have pointed out "Muslims" didn't attack the WTC. Terrorists did. Big difference.

Allowing the community center to be built will give people a chance to get to know each other as individuals and as families...not as misunderstood concepts, political tools, or media scare tactics.

I attended a small grad school program with a Muslim man for two years, and was able to have many conversations about what that faith really teaches, to see him with his children and his wife, to hear how he interacted with fellow students, and to debate and converse on many occasions. Knowing him and his family did more to enhance my understanding and promote "tolerance" (I hate that word) than any media report, book, sermon, political speech...whatever.

People have to have the opportunity to get to know each other in order to understand, to accept and maybe even to embrace. This is a good first step.

[JustJo]

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)


I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned. :)

[betenoire]

We need a "well-meaning phrases/words that rub us the wrong way" thread

promote "tolerance" (I hate that word)

Exactly. Doesn't "tolerance" basically mean "I put up with but don't understand, embrace, or even actually like _____" ?

I concur....and prefer to think of us as a nice salad...lots of different flavors, all tossed together. Much better as far as I'm concerned. :)

I like Mosaic. It's pretty and you don't have to eat it.

[AtLast]

On topic. Anybody who opposes the building of this community centre has some -serious- self-examination to do.

Off topic. I -really- hate the term "melting pot". Just sayin'.

(Okay, not "just sayin'" It implies a melting away of different cultures. It implies assimilation. It implies becoming "more American". It's poopy.)

More off topic. I so dig that the Holy Trilogy got dragged into this discussion. Some of you people are such giant nerds it makes me want to lick your eyeballs.

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.


Melting pot via its traditional definition is poopy. For me, it has always meant something different, even opposing because I see the lead pot to be the impermeable holder of customs and traditions of various cultures. Just how my first generation mind works.

I want a burger....

[Toughy]

I want a green chile cheeseburger (the best in the world) from a local dive burger joint known as Dave's in Santa Fe NM.........if it's still open.......if not then I want the green chile cheeseburger from The Tecolate Bar in San Antonio NM (it's south of Albuquerque and birth home to Conrad Hilton and has a population of about 200 on a good day)......I so miss NM green chiles and the smell of them roasting.......

wait this is not a burger thread..........sorry........

[dreadgeek]

From Talkingpointsmemo.com (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/07/ca_anti_mosque_protest_organizers_bring_dogs_becau se_muslims_hate_dogs.php?ref=fpa):


"It seems the anti-mosque protesters in California have torn a few pages from the Abu Ghraib field manual. Protesters of a planned mosque and Muslim community center in Riverside, California are calling on locals to come to a rally outside an existing mosque with their pet dogs because, as the protest organizer says, Muslims "hate dogs." "We will not be submissive," the notice proclaimed. "Our voices are going to be heard!" The alert went on to question what its authors described as Islamic beliefs. It suggested that participants sing during the rally because Muslim "women are forbidden to sing." It suggested that rally participants bring dogs because Muslims "hate dogs.""

The idea of preserving a memorial to the people who died at the WTC is a smokescreen and a convenient excuse. This is really about *Muslims* integrating into the community--nothing more, nothing less.

Cheers
Aj

[Soon]

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House

From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero.

Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance:

There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know.

I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy.

In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11.

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2010-07-27-thewalkvert.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-sledge/just-how-far-is-the-groun_b_660585.html

[AtLast]

The "Ground Zero Mosque" that we have been and will be hearing so much about is not exactly a mosque, nor is it at Ground Zero. Here's why: you can't see Ground Zero -- the former site of the World Trade Center -- from the future site of the Cordoba House

From 45 Park Place, the former Burlington Coat Factory building that will make way for the Cordoba House, it's two blocks, around a corner, to get to the WTC site. Park Place doesn't lie between the construction site and any mass transit stations, so you would need to go out of your way to have it offend you.


When the new World Trade Center rises, you'll be able to see it from 45 Park Place, because it'll be by far the tallest thing around. The planned Cordoba House will be dwarfed. It certainly won't overlook or overshadow Ground Zero.

Why is the distance between the two sites so important? Simple accuracy, for one. It's frustrating to see so many commentators blithely disregard an obvious, physical problem with the "mosque at Ground Zero" formulation: it's not at Ground Zero.

Clyde Haberman of the New York Times further explains the significance:

There's that "at." For a two-letter word, it packs quite a wallop. It has been tossed around in a manner both cavalier and disingenuous, with an intention by some to inflame passions. Nobody, regardless of political leanings, would tolerate a mosque at ground zero. "Near" is not the same, as anyone who paid attention back in the fourth grade should know.

I understand the journalist's impulse to use the "Ground Zero Mosque" shorthand to instantly remind readers why they should care about the story. Headlines leave out qualifiers like "near" all the time for brevity's sake. But in this case the elision is critical; leaving out the "near" clearly takes sides -- against the "mosque" and against accuracy.

In addition, the building planned for 45 Park Place is a cultural center with a prayer room -- not a single-purpose house of worship for Muslims, which is probably what we should reserve the word "mosque" for. As Haberman also explains, "That it may even be called a mosque is debatable. It is designed as a multi-use complex with a space set aside for prayer -- no minarets, no muezzin calls to prayer blaring onto Park Place."

The 92nd Street Y, on which the Cordoba House is explicitly modeled, has a whole host of Jewish events take place inside of it, but no one calls it a synagogue. There's no good reason why Cordoba House should be misleadingly called a "mosque." I've been guilty of using this word too, in conversation and in writing, but it's inaccurate. Muslims already read the Quran and pray at 45 Park Place, but that does not and will not turn it into a "mosque."

There's one more catch for the opponents of the so-called Ground Zero mosque: by the same logical leap you can call the Cordoba Center a "mosque," you can also call Ground Zero as it already exists a giant, open-air mosque. Muslim prayers are already taking place right on the edge of the construction site, and not for world domination. Families are going there to pray -- for the souls of the dozens of innocent Muslim victims who died on September 11.

So, I guess it is some kind of crime for Muslims to pray for their own lost souls? Oh, they are all terrorists, I forgot....

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2010-07-27-thewalkvert.jpg

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-sledge/just-how-far-is-the-groun_b_660585.html

THANK YOU!

[AtLast]

From that article:

Those protesting the California construction site include the pastor of a neighboring Baptist church who recently told the Los Angeles Times he was upset about the construction plan because the mosque and community center will turn the town into "a haven for Islamic extremists."

AJ - Some days, I just want to put you on ignore for making me read this stuff, which causes me to (further) lose hope in the future.


Oh, how I hear you! And everytime Msdemeanor posts her same planet feeling, I am oh, so with her!

[MsTinkerbelly]

Obama makes clear support for ground zero mosque

By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Erica Werner, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 2 mins ago
WASHINGTON – After skirting the controversy for weeks, President Barack Obama is weighing in forcefully on the mosque near ground zero, saying a nation built on religious freedom must allow it.

"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama told an intently listening crowd gathered at the White House Friday evening to observe the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The White House had not previously taken a stand on the mosque, which would be part of a $100 million Islamic community center two blocks from where nearly 3,000 people perished when hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. Press secretary Robert Gibbs had insisted it was a local matter.

It was already much more than that, sparking debate around the country as top Republicans including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich announced their opposition. So did the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights group.

Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.

While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values.

Harkening back to earlier times when the building of synagogues or Catholic churches also met with opposition, Obama said: "Time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it. So it must be and will be today."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an independent who has been a strong supporter of the mosque, welcomed Obama's words as a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."

But some victims' advocates and Republicans were quick to pounce.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks.

Building the mosque at ground zero, she said, "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah."

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son was killed at the World Trade Center, said the president had failed to understand the issue. "As an Obama supporter, I really feel that he's lost sight of the germane issue, which is not about freedom of religion," she said. "It's about a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost."

Added Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y.: "President Obama is wrong. It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero."

Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines in the U.S. but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and the over 100 guests at Friday's dinner in the State Dining Room included ambassadors and officials from numerous nations where Islam is observed, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

While his pronouncement concerning the mosque might find favor in the Muslim world, Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls.

Opponents, including some Sept. 11 victims' relatives, see the prospect of a mosque so near the destroyed trade center as an insult to the memory of those killed by Islamic terrorists in the 2001 attacks

[Stearns]

Obama makes clear support for ground zero mosque

By ERICA WERNER, Associated Press Writer Erica Werner, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 2 mins ago
WASHINGTON – After skirting the controversy for weeks, President Barack Obama is weighing in forcefully on the mosque near ground zero, saying a nation built on religious freedom must allow it.

"As a citizen, and as president, I believe that Muslims have the same right to practice their religion as everyone else in this country," Obama told an intently listening crowd gathered at the White House Friday evening to observe the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.

"That includes the right to build a place of worship and a community center on private property in lower Manhattan, in accordance with local laws and ordinances," he said. "This is America, and our commitment to religious freedom must be unshakable."

The White House had not previously taken a stand on the mosque, which would be part of a $100 million Islamic community center two blocks from where nearly 3,000 people perished when hijacked jetliners slammed into the World Trade Center towers on Sept. 11, 2001. Press secretary Robert Gibbs had insisted it was a local matter.

It was already much more than that, sparking debate around the country as top Republicans including Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich announced their opposition. So did the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish civil rights group.

Obama elevated it to a presidential issue Friday without equivocation.

While insisting that the place where the twin towers once stood was indeed "hallowed ground," Obama said that the proper way to honor it was to apply American values.

Harkening back to earlier times when the building of synagogues or Catholic churches also met with opposition, Obama said: "Time and again, the American people have demonstrated that we can work through these issues, and stay true to our core values and emerge stronger for it. So it must be and will be today."

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, an independent who has been a strong supporter of the mosque, welcomed Obama's words as a "clarion defense of the freedom of religion."

But some victims' advocates and Republicans were quick to pounce.

"Barack Obama has abandoned America at the place where America's heart was broken nine years ago, and where her true values were on display for all to see," said Debra Burlingame, a spokeswoman for some Sept. 11 victims' families and the sister of one of the pilots killed in the attacks.

Building the mosque at ground zero, she said, "is a deliberately provocative act that will precipitate more bloodshed in the name of Allah."

Sally Regenhard, whose firefighter son was killed at the World Trade Center, said the president had failed to understand the issue. "As an Obama supporter, I really feel that he's lost sight of the germane issue, which is not about freedom of religion," she said. "It's about a gross lack of sensitivity to the 9/11 families and to the people who were lost."

Added Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y.: "President Obama is wrong. It is insensitive and uncaring for the Muslim community to build a mosque in the shadow of ground zero."

Entering the highly charged election-year debate, Obama surely knew that his words would not only make headlines in the U.S. but be heard by Muslims worldwide. The president has made it a point to reach out to the global Muslim community, and the over 100 guests at Friday's dinner in the State Dining Room included ambassadors and officials from numerous nations where Islam is observed, including Saudi Arabia and Indonesia.

While his pronouncement concerning the mosque might find favor in the Muslim world, Obama's stance runs counter to the opinions of the majority of Americans, according to polls.

Opponents, including some Sept. 11 victims' relatives, see the prospect of a mosque so near the destroyed trade center as an insult to the memory of those killed by Islamic terrorists in the 2001 attacks

Aside: Gee, I wish Obama would express this kind of conviction for LGBT rights. I'd love to hear him say, "This is America, and our commitment to equal rights must be unshakable."

[Stearns]

From that article:

Those protesting the California construction site include the pastor of a neighboring Baptist church who recently told the Los Angeles Times he was upset about the construction plan because the mosque and community center will turn the town into "a haven for Islamic extremists."

AJ - Some days, I just want to put you on ignore for making me read this stuff, which causes me to (further) lose hope in the future.

Frankly, it offends me that so many Protestant churches are producers of and havens for 'Christian' extremists. And get tax-exempt status to boot.

[Laerkin]

Everything I have to say has already been said...from the number of Muslims killed in the terrorists attacks to the importance of recognizing that a group of extremists in no way represent the one billion people that are Muslim.

I'm all for the new community center and I would be totally happy to check it out after it's been built. The more we educate, the more we eradicate hatred and ignorance.

[lipstixgal]

I have no problem with the Muslim community building a Mosque I have many Muslim friends at school and we are good friends so as a Jew I see no harm done. In fact I would like to visit it once its built to see it!

[Corkey]

Here is where I have a hard time with all of this. It is just fine to build a church, or a synagog. It is however not so good to build a mosque. I know we all remember that these 3 religions come from the same book, different chapters, but still same book.
If the people of this book can't agree on if they are brothers and sisters under their same God, then why should I who doesn't believe in their God have any reason to think they are sane?
The Muslims under the Constitution have every right to build a mosque where ever the permit permits.
Christians need to get over themselves.
Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I wish your Christians were more like him."

[Gayla]

I said something to Di this morning about how maybe if the media stopped calling it the "ground zero mosque" it would stop being such a huge freaking deal. I mean really? How many people are going to complain about having another swimming pool to go play in?

Yes, simplistic at it's best, but taking the sensationalism out of it, and looking at what it really is, there should be no controversy at all.

[AtLast]

So glad that Obama spoke to this in terms of constitutional guarantees!

I am begining to think that there is a whole lot of constitutional ignornace in the US and it makes me sick. An informed electorate, we are not! This is very dangerous.

[MsDemeanor]

If this country is going to start banning mosques, that's fine. Just make sure that we also quit building churches and synagogues and any other houses of worship. While we're at it, let's quit building religion-based hospitals and schools and businesses. And then let's tax the fuck out of all the existing ones, tax them to the point where they have to sell off all their property. Let's just get rid of every last one of them.

[JustJo]

Here's a link (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/opinion/17dalrymple.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th) to a wonderful op-ed piece in the NY Times about the Sufis...wish it was required reading for everyone in this country.

[lipstixgal]

I don't have anything against it..in fact I have Muslim friends and they are very nice to me and I'm a Jew by choice so I think that everyone should have the right to practice their religion no matter who they are..

Jo the piece you have in your link was very nice I enjoyed!!

[afixer]

Further off topic. Obama was right - Five Guys has the best fucking burgers in the universe. Omg.


this is the truth.


this is worth repeating.

After the number of Americans killed by it,
I cannot abide by such a disrespectful act of building a McDonald's so close to the WTC!

[turasultana]

There's a 5 guys burgers in park slope brooklyn... I think I need to go again soon. :)

[lipstixgal]

Golly is there a five guys in NJ?? lol

[Apocalipstic]

If we are against building that Mosque, we should be against building any churches on what was formerly Sacred Ground for those Native People who came before the United States...Wal-marts too!

I think it is idiotic that this is even a subject, we allegedly have freedom of religion and division of church and state???

AND

The building is not on the Ground Zero site!!! how far away is OK? 5 blocks? 10?

Now people all over the country are freaking out about ANY Mosques being built.

[SnackTime]

If we are against building that Mosque, we should be against building any churches on what was formerly Sacred Ground for those Native People who came before the United States...Wal-marts too!

I think it is idiotic that this is even a subject, we allegedly have freedom of religion and division of church and state???

AND

The building is not on the Ground Zero site!!! how far away is OK? 5 blocks? 10?

Now people all over the country are freaking out about ANY Mosques being built.

Just like people freaking out in Rutherford County, because they want to build a Mosque in Murfreesboro!

I have no issue with building the new learning center. Just like you said, this center is not going to at Ground Zero

[AtLast]

Can you believe all the trash talk about Obama, the president of the US, making statements about the constitution? Oh, that's right, he isn't really a US citizen and ya' know he is really Muslim... Now this is getting all heated in teerms of the mid-term elections with the GOP/Tea Party wackos!! of course, these idiots believed that Iraq was behind 9/11.

It is actually a community center with a prayer room in it! This is so nuts! It is NOT a mosque!

It is times like these that I feel some shame about my country....

[Apocalipstic]

Can you believe all the trash talk about Obama, the president of the US, making statements about the constitution? Oh, that's right, he isn't really a US citizen and ya' know he is really Muslim... Now this is getting all heated in teerms of the mid-term elections with the GOP/Tea Party wackos!! of course, these idiots believed that Iraq was behind 9/11.

It is actually a community center with a prayer room in it! This is so nuts! It is NOT a mosque!

It is times like these that I feel some shame about my country....


Meeee toooooo!!!!!!!

All the talk of changing the Constitution they so love....

And even if it were a Mosque, I have a hard time understanding how it is going to sully the adult book stores and peep shows in its area, which AGAIN is not at ground zero.

:seeingstars::seeingstars:

I had no idea people were still so upset about FDR???

[Apocalipstic]

Just like people freaking out in Rutherford County, because they want to build a Mosque in Murfreesboro!

I have no issue with building the new learning center. Just like you said, this center is not going to at Ground Zero

Yeah, like Murfreesboro and Antioch are anywhere NEAR Ground Zero????

People are nuts!

They want to turn the Hickory Hollow Cinemas into a Mosque and people are upset about that too....I am fine with not building it, IF....they will also tear down the Wal-Mart on Charlotte built on the Native American Burial Ground, and EVERY church in Nashville...since every single one is built on what used to be Sacred Ground.

[AtLast]

Meeee toooooo!!!!!!!

All the talk of changing the Constitution they so love....

And even if it were a Mosque, I have a hard time understanding how it is going to sully the adult book stores and peep shows in its area, which AGAIN is not at ground zero.

:seeingstars::seeingstars:

I had no idea people were still so upset about FDR???

Oh, yeah, still mad at FDR... WTF??

They want a constitution based upon only their values.

Now, idiots are talking about the property in question being hit by landing gear (or something liket his) during the 9/11 attack...

To me, rising above this kind of mentality is a tribute to our diverse society. The idea of having different cultures and religions represented near ground zero points to healing and keeping with our diverse identities as a country. and And it sounds like a community center there might just help the neighborhood out!

I wish some of the families of Muslims that were killed that day would speak up along with other families representing all the faiths represented by workers (and first responders lost) and the general public that day. The WTC was a symbol of what is good about the US in many ways (not others).

Thinking about how this center being built could also demonstrate how US Muslims are NOT part of terrorist factions among their faith in the world.

UGH... is it true that somewhere there is a group of jerks wanting to do a public burning of the Koran to demonstrate against this? Oh, and the guy that wants a ban on ALL mosques being built in the US... there's a piece of work!

[Soon]

UGH... is it true that somewhere there is a group of jerks wanting to do a public burning of the Koran to demonstrate against this? Oh, and the guy that wants a ban on ALL mosques being built in the US... there's a piece of work!

(CNN) - (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html)- In protest of what it calls a religion "of the devil," a nondenominational church in Gainesville, Florida, plans to host an "International Burn a Quran Day" on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.
The Dove World Outreach Center says it is hosting the event to remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam.

[Outlaw]

From a friend who still works just a few blocks from the WTC site - The piece entitled "Hallowed Ground" showcases some of what (http://daryllang.com/blog/4421) we would see on the walk from from the subway to the office.

[MsDemeanor]

(CNN) - (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html)- In protest of what it calls a religion "of the devil," a nondenominational church in Gainesville, Florida, plans to host an "International Burn a Quran Day" on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.
The Dove World Outreach Center says it is hosting the event to remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam.
I wonder how many of these folks have family or friends who have done time in Iraq. You know, that place where we've killed thousands of American solders and tens of thousands of Iraqis and blow billions of desperately needed dollars. You know, that place where we're doing all of this to help Muslims. Fucking morons.

[AtLast]

I wonder how many of these folks have family or friends who have done time in Iraq. You know, that place where we've killed thousands of American solders and tens of thousands of Iraqis and blow billions of desperately needed dollars. You know, that place where we're doing all of this to help Muslims. Fucking morons.

Very GOOD point! What is it you say about sharing this planet with morons? GAWD!! Sometimes, I just can't believe the level of ignorance of some factions of the US population today!

All of the families of those fighting (and have) in Iraq really should be pissed off at this ignorance! Talk about no respect for our military and what troops are going through and have for years, now!!

[AtLast]

(CNN) - (http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/07/29/florida.burn.quran.day/index.html)- In protest of what it calls a religion "of the devil," a nondenominational church in Gainesville, Florida, plans to host an "International Burn a Quran Day" on the ninth anniversary of the September 11, 2001, attacks.
The Dove World Outreach Center says it is hosting the event to remember 9/11 victims and take a stand against Islam.

Well, I guess they use the preferred Islamic spelling.... my bad. This is so disturbing and so damn dumb!

[MsMerrick]

From a friend who still works just a few blocks from the WTC site - The piece entitled "Hallowed Ground" showcases some of what (http://daryllang.com/blog/4421) we would see on the walk from from the subway to the office.

Well worth repeating !
A Community Center, not unlike a YMCA or a YMHA, is what is being built btw, not a "Mosque"

[MsDemeanor]

I like the point made last night by Keith Olbermann - there's already a mosque 4 blocks from the WTC site, and it's been there since before the WTC was even built!!!

[Outlaw]

QZpT2Muxoo0

[Toughy]

I keep trying to remember the 'average American' who has never walked down the street and heard at least 2 and usually 3 languages on a routine basis.........

or spent every friday night family dinner where at least 8 languages could be spoken at the dinner table...

[Isadora]

Here is what bothers me, in no particular order:

Media focusing and building the controversy over something that is not even new to the area...instead we should be worried about our economy, lack of jobs, no money in education, no money for updated books, and fascism invading our politics.

Government officials focusing on the horror of it while about 19% (2008 US Census) of our country lives in poverty and about 48% of that are children, bout 15 million children -- one out of every four live below the official poverty line, 22% of Americans under the age of 18 -- and 25% under age 12 are hungry or at the risk of being hungry. Children ARE Hungry In The US. Children and families are the fastest growing group in the homeless population, representing 40%.

After years of my career working with government agencies with nothing changing....it amazes me how little we truly care about each other and more about perceived terror with an unethical media. Compassion is not a media magnet.

[AtLast]

I keep trying to remember the 'average American' who has never walked down the street and heard at least 2 and usually 3 languages on a routine basis.........

or spent every friday night family dinner where at least 8 languages could be spoken at the dinner table...

I miss this average American, this was (still is to a degree) my life.

[dreadgeek]

Saw this at Talking Points Memo a few moments ago (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/08/nypd_charges_man_with_hate_crime_after_allegedly_s tabbing_muslim_cabbie.php?ref=fpb).

The New York Police Department has confirmed to TPM that a cab driver in Manhttan was allegedly stabbed by a passenger who asked if the cabbie was Muslim, and says the incident is being treated as a hate crime. The suspect has been charged with attempted murder and other crimes.

According to Detective Marc Nell, at 6:12 pm last night, the driver picked up Michael Enright, 21, of Brewster, NY, at the intersection of 24th Street and 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. The cab proceeded to drive north, and Enright asked the driver, who Nell identified as a 43-year-old Asian male, if he was Muslim. After the driver responded that he was, Enright allegedly stabbed him repeatedly with a Leatherman tool, according to police.

"[Enright] stabbed the driver in the throat, right arm, left forearm, right thumb and upper lip," Nell said.

According to police, the driver called 911, and stopped the cab on 3rd Avenue between 40th and 41st streets, managing to lock Enright inside until police arrived.

Nell told TPM that the cab driver is in stable condition, and that Enright has been charged with "attempted murder two as a hate crime, assault with a weapon as a hate crime, aggravated harassment second degree because of race and religion, and criminal possession of a weapon."

Nell could not confirm that Enright had admitted to asking the driver if he was Muslim.

[betenoire]

Bloody fucking hell. This insanity is -exactly- what the universe does not need.

[chefhottie25]

i don't understand why there is a debate about this. the right to build the mosque is protected by the first amendment. the bill of rights doesn't just protect certain groups or people. it is the bill of rights for everyone.

[dreadgeek]

i don't understand why there is a debate about this. the right to build the mosque is protected by the first amendment. the bill of rights doesn't just protect certain groups or people. it is the bill of rights for everyone.

Yeah, no small number of conservatives appear to think that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." has a hidden caveat of "unless said religion is Islam or some other minority religion and/or that religion is globally practiced by brown people with names we have trouble pronouncing correctly." When this center is built (and for ALL our sakes I hope it is) expect to hear talk coming from the right-wing that perhaps it is time to 'clarify' the meaning of the First Amendment. As much as I don't think it needs any clarification (it seems pretty straight-forward to me) I would, after a fashion, welcome the proposal and subsequent debate. Why? Because I believe that what no small number of the Republican base *mean* when they invoke the First Amendment is this:

"Congress shall make no law respecting any Christian denomination over any other Christian denomination or prohibiting the free practice of Christianity..."

Since it appears that is what conservatives *mean* it would be nice if they would just *say* that is what they mean.

Btw. the reason I say that this center should be built for all our sakes is that if it isn't built then Al Qaeda, Hamas and Hezbollah will have all of their recruiting propaganda written for them for the foreseeable future.

Cheers
Aj

[SuperFemme]

I am confused by people calling it a Mosque.
Is it not an Islamic Community Center? Two blocks away from ground zero?
Should we not honor the Muslim victims of 9/11? Are they not American as well? Do they not deserve our tears as much John Smith?

Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:
Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=2226) (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi%2D0109280213sep28.story) (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.icna.org/) website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la%2Dhumantoll%2Dbolourchi.story) (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=1260) (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://usinfo.state.gov/albums/911/ham1.htm) (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.lankagems.com/inlovmemofra.html) (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=953) (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

[MsDemeanor]

I am confused by people calling it a Mosque.
Is it not an Islamic Community Center? Two blocks away from ground zero?

"Islamic Community Center two blocks from the very edge of the Twin Towers area and several more blocks from the actual tower locations" doesn't fit on a protest sign.

It also doesn't scare ignorant and gullible people.

[SuperFemme]

"Islamic Community Center two blocks from the very edge of the Twin Towers area and several more blocks from the actual tower locations" doesn't fit on a protest sign.

It also doesn't scare ignorant and gullible people.

good points and a glaring representation of the media bending the truth.

to me community center evokes images of mommy & me classes, quinceañero parties and craft classes. not al queda training camps.

[dreadgeek]

"Islamic Community Center two blocks from the very edge of the Twin Towers area and several more blocks from the actual tower locations" doesn't fit on a protest sign.

It also doesn't scare ignorant and gullible people.

True enough. It also doesn't fit into the narrative of "wherever there is an Islamic conquest they (Muslims) erect a mosque so if we allow a mosque to be erected *anywhere* in the United States, that means that we're capitulating to having been conquered by the Saracens, I mean the Moors, sorry one more try, Al Qaeda. Isn't it wonderful that Islam can look to Christianity as an example because, I'm sure you're all aware, that there isn't a single instance--what-so-ever--of Christians building a triumphalist church on or near the site of a battlefield. Okay, if you eliminate every Christian church built in the Western Hemisphere there are no examples of that. No that doesn't quite work; not counting any churches built in the Western Hemisphere, anywhere between Istanbul in the south to Moscow in the East, any Christian churches built in Western Europe, any Christian churches in Israel, Egypt, or Algeria, or sub-Saharan Africa, you can't find a *single* instance of Christians building a triumphalist church on or near the site of a battlefield. No, that still doesn't quite work, this time for sure; if you exclude the planet occupying the third orbital position around our local star, and just count orbital positions 1, 2 and 4 (Mercury, Venus and Mars respectively) you can't find a *single* triumphalist Christian church built near a battlefield.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

good points and a glaring representation of the media bending the truth.

to me community center evokes images of mommy & me classes, quinceañero parties and craft classes. not al queda training camps.

quinceañero parties? That sounds Spanish to me. Spanish isn't English which makes it near to Arabic. Arabic is spoken by Muslims and Arabs. Arabs are brown. Mexican people are (largely) brown. Muslims are terrorists. Therefore quinceañero is just Spanish for "Al Qaeda training camp". One cannot help but notice that quinceañero and Al Qaeda both have q's in prominent places. Coincidence? I think not.

You know, parodying the kind of breathless hysteria on the right is almost *too* easy.

Cheers
Aj

[SuperFemme]

T No, that still doesn't quite work, this time for sure; if you exclude the planet occupying the third orbital position around our local star, and just count orbital positions 1, 2 and 4 (Mercury, Venus and Mars respectively) you can't find a *single* triumphalist Christian church built near a battlefield.

Cheers
Aj

so what you're saying is that the proposed mosque near ground zero is responsible for mercury in retrograde? don't tell rush limbaugh.

[MsDemeanor]

quinceañero parties? That sounds Spanish to me. Spanish isn't English which makes it near to Arabic. Arabic is spoken by Muslims and Arabs. Arabs are brown. Mexican people are (largely) brown. Muslims are terrorists. Therefore quinceañero is just Spanish for "Al Qaeda training camp". One cannot help but notice that quinceañero and Al Qaeda both have q's in prominent places. Coincidence? I think not.

You forgot one other clear connection: Spain is near Arabia.

Not to fear, though, as SB1070 will take care of the problem.

[dreadgeek]

so what you're saying is that the proposed mosque near ground zero is responsible for mercury in retrograde? don't tell rush limbaugh.

It's an Al Qaeda plot! Wait. If you think about it. Muslims built mosques on Earth. Earth is near the sun (relatively speaking). The sun is the gravitational center of the solar system. Reagan's ghost! Islam has conquered the solar system!!!!!! It's worse than that, in about 5 billion years, the sun is going to expand out to about the orbit of Mars, completely destroying the Earth! What I think has happened is that future Muslims have traveled *back* in time to build the Cordoba House as a sign that the final triumph of Islam will occur when the Sun (which is just a star and a number of Muslim-majority nations have stars in their flag) parboils the Earth. (The mosque couldn't be built after the sun cooks the Earth thus the traveling back in time.) Or it might be that these Muslim time-travelers are from the *very* far future (15 billion years +/-) when the Universe undergoes heat death.

[dreadgeek]

You forgot one other clear connection: Spain is near Arabia.

Not to fear, though, as SB1070 will take care of the problem.

It's TRUE! And since parts of Spain were once under Muslim control (until 1492) and Spanish was still spoken then---Spanish = Arabic? Coincidence? I think not!

[MsDemeanor]

It's TRUE! And since parts of Spain were once under Muslim control (until 1492) and Spanish was still spoken then---Spanish = Arabic? Coincidence? I think not!
Hey, wait a minute!!! I learned this in school - "In fourteen hundred and ninety two, Columbus sailed the ocean blue". OMFG!!! Columbus was a Muslim. And Columbus discovered America. That means all Americans are Muslim!!! My neighbors are terrorists, and I didn't even know it!! I better go lock the doors and windows!!

:seeingstars:

[SuperFemme]

america's first mosque:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__TkYG1RhmoU/SuPMjZLuj_I/AAAAAAAACQg/gUkK6zc9at4/s400/teepee400.jpg

[betenoire]

so what you're saying is that the proposed mosque near ground zero is responsible for mercury in retrograde? don't tell rush limbaugh.

Wait. Since Mercury is the ruling planet of Gemini - does that make me a terrorist?

Now I'm all upset!

[AtLast]

I am confused by people calling it a Mosque.
Is it not an Islamic Community Center? Two blocks away from ground zero?
Should we not honor the Muslim victims of 9/11? Are they not American as well? Do they not deserve our tears as much John Smith?

Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:
Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=2226) (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi%2D0109280213sep28.story) (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.icna.org/) website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la%2Dhumantoll%2Dbolourchi.story) (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=1260) (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://usinfo.state.gov/albums/911/ham1.htm) (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.lankagems.com/inlovmemofra.html) (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=953) (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

Thank you for posting this.

Finally, some of the family members of Muslim's that died in the towers are speaking up.

Also, one woman (non-Muslim) from NY made a great comment about I heard today about how she felt that the real slap in the face (disrespect was the term she actually used) to the families of victims was the extreme right-wing political candidates making all the assinine remarks about the community center putting out election materials with pics of the towers burning.

[Rook]

I'm probably way too sleepy to fully graSp the humor in this.....

playing it safe ..
la reconquista started mostly in 1212, portugal being the first to eradicate the majority presence of muslims {and jews}, a few centuries later{bla bla} in 1492, the last vestiges of a muslim leadership was quashed*Iberian peninsula anyways*, royalty of spain said "go for it" in 1480 to the Inquisition forcing muslims, romani and jews to convert or die.
Those that did, still kept a secondary status and were also called marranos because they were suspected to continue their faith in secret {which probably explains why some of my relatives despise such a word}
In the 1600's however, if there was suspicions, those too were ejected/killed.
Hence the little saying "No hay Moros en la Costa"....

the joys of being taught unbiased history....
over and over and over and over....
bedtime for me..
:seeingstars:

[weatherboi]

This was a great interview. She boldly calls it out for what it is!!!
Cloaking religious persecution and racial intolerance with fear.
"Every moment that we don't acknowledge white privledge we stab them."


kscMwrTRwmk

[AtLast]

A city cab driver is in the hospital after being stabbed by a passenger who allegedly asked if he was Muslim, police tell NY1.

Investigators with the New York City Police Department say it all began Monday night when a 21-year-old man hailed a cab at 24th Street and Second Avenue in Manhattan.

Police say the passenger asked the driver, "Are you Muslim?" When the driver said yes the passenger pulled a knife and slashed him in the throat, arm and lip.

The 43-year-old driver was able to lock the passenger in the back of the cab and call 911.

Both the driver and the passenger were taken to Bellevue Hospital.

http://manhattan.ny1.com/content/top_stories/124338/police--cab-driver-stabbed-by-passenger-who-asked--are-you-muslim--

As of late Tuesday, no charges had been filed.

[IrishGrrl]

Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should....

[betenoire]

Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should....

That's what Sarah Palin said on the subject.

[Toughy]

Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should....


Got a reason why the Community Center should not be built? I haven't heard a good one yet...........maybe you can shed some light......

[Soon]

The Ground Zero Synagogue—Lebanon Becoming More American than America (http://www.zeropartypolitics.com/2010/08/ground-zero-synagoguelebanon-becoming.html)

...


“Ground Zero” for Lebanon is an ever expanding, never ending, open wound that never heals.

So what now Newt?

Should you expect the Lebanese to allow a synagogue to be built on their Ground Zero, in the aftermath of a 9/11 that occurred 5 years after ours and which, “proportionately” speaking, was 30 times the size of ours?

Well guess what you hateful, misguided, twit?

THEY DID.

In the process of re-building Beirut yet again, in 2008, renovations began and have now been completed on the Maghden Abraham Synagogue located in the middle of newly renovated downtown Beirut in an area known as the “Solidere" which has become the focal point and showcase of Lebanon’s rebirth.

This isn’t some hole in the wall, nondescript, “excuse me” synagogue hidden out of view so as to not “offend” Lebanese non-Jews—this is an elaborate, ornate, beautifully designed, cathedral-style house of worship built for a Lebanese Jewish population that totals less than 500 in a country of more than 4,000,000 (in stark contrast to the eight million American Muslims living in the United States).

And wait until you hear Hezbollah’s response to the building of this Ground Zero Synagogue.

(To those expecting a Newt Gingrich equivalent response, prepare to be woefully disappointed).

Courtesy of Hassan Nasrallah himself: "We respect Judaism, just as we respect Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel."

Did you hear that Newt (and the rest of you idiots)?

An Arab democracy, with a Muslim Prime Minister and a Christian President, allowed the building of a synagogue, squarely in the center of their “Ground Zero” in the heart and pride of downtown Beirut which used to be a dumping ground for Israeli military ordinances.


*the whole post is interesting but i haven't investigated sources of the blogger etc.*

[AtLast]

Kind of interesting...... another viewpoint from someone just starting out... I don't agree with all that is said, but, there are some points to consider for all of us. And to consider in watching the younger generations take their place and vote, be part of communities, raise kids.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-486298?hpt=C2


iReport — Like many people, I have been closely following the events of the past few weeks, surrounding the debate over the more-controversial-than-it-should-be Park51 community center. My interest in the matter has grown to borderline obsession, as I observed this issue swell from community disagreement to n#ational divisor. The religious freedom points have been exchanged ad nauseum. I’m tired of hearing both sides use it as a crutch while they try to find better words to suit their arguments. It’s time to put that part of the debate to bed.

I’m 24 years old. I mention this because I have yet to hear any voices of America’s youth speaking up about their feelings regarding this matter, at least not beyond the frenzy of Facebook status updates and “tweets”. I have yet to see or hear anyone asking how my generation feels about this project. Of course, I imagine my generation’s age is the primary reason for this, but it’s also why I bring it up.

I’m not insensitive to those who lost loved ones on 9/11, but since I didn’t experience personal loss that day, it puts me in an awkward position when I express my views on this matter. I was 15 when the attacks occurred. The dust clouds I viewed from the Hudson River, enshrouding what would be a forever changed skyline, is an image that still haunts me. However, personal losses aside, my generation experienced another loss that day. We lost our innocence, because we knew this was going to be our fight in the years to come. We knew that this war would be carried on our backs. The politicians and pundits could wax poetic about their respective views, but the young adults of America would be doing the real heavy lifting. These are the young adults who are now getting ready to start families of their own, and to raise the next generation of Americans. That generation will inherit the consequences of this war. What kind of America are we making for them?The 9/11 attacks were a gut-wrenching reminder of the hatred that exists in the world—hatred that has caused us great pain. But how long must we allow our pain to manifest itself in socially destructive ways? Across the country, protests are springing up against mosques being planned in other communities, spurred on by the protests surrounding Park51. The opponents of Park51 base their objections on the “insensitivity” of the location, but what’s the excuse for people wanting to stop a mosque in Temecula, California? Or Sheboygan, Wisconsin? Or Murfreesboro, Tennessee? If you read Laurie Goodstein’s August 7 New York Times article, you’ll see that some members of the opposition are quite clear in stating that their problem is with Islam itself. Despite the vast range of Islamic sects, it’s not uncommon for members of these movements to toss all Muslims into the same pot. Perhaps that’s why so many of Park51’s supporters feel there are undertones of bigotry in this case, despite the opposition’s denials. They need to do some honest soul-searching, and ask if their objections would really be this severe if a synagogue or church were to be built there.

If I may digress for a moment, my gripes with the opposition aside, I have my own axe to grind with my fellow supporters. I was at the August 22 rally in New York City, and among the supporters were people shouting slogans like "Free Palestine," passing out communist/socialist revolutionary literature, trying to get people to sign a petition to send a U.S. flotilla to Gaza, and holding signs saying, "Muslims are not the enemy...Big Business is." My friends, whether I may agree or disagree with your relative sentiments, these particular rallies are neither the time nor the place for these issues. This facility is not about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, it's not about revolution, and it's not about Big Business. Save it for a more relevant rally and focus on the issue at hand. For once, stop being the "professional left," as the right-wing pundits take such pride in calling you. It weakens us and makes us seem fractured at a time where we can ill afford to appear in such a manner.

Back to the main issue. What worries me is the state of mosques beyond Ground Zero, such as the embattled ones mentioned above. If Park51 were to crumble under the tide of mob pressure, what comes next? How would that empower the other anti-mosque movements in the country? Will it grant them a greater sense of legitimacy to say, “Of course you’re free to practice your religion…but we don’t want you to do it here.” If that were to happen, then by the same right should the Muslims of Dearborn, Michigan have the privilege to protest and try to stop the construction of a church or synagogue, and say that they shouldn’t be building there? Would Jews in Great Neck be right to try to stop a church or a mosque from being built there? What comes after that? What cycles of reciprocity could be spawned from this, and what kind of example does this set? Things have gotten to the point where the Tennessee center’s construction site was been subjected to arson. So what comes next?

Naïveté comes with youth, but sometimes it can allow us to be the best of bridge-builders. I was in Israel a month ago, with young Jews like myself. One night, we stayed at a youth hostel in the city of Arad. Also staying there was a group of Muslim teenagers, participating in a religious camp program. At first, our two groups stayed separate from one another, but when some of us went over to introduce ourselves, the atmosphere changed from one of distant observation to one of warmth and friendship. We kicked a soccer ball back and forth. We shared laughs over cell phone videos of these kids performing acts of teenage silliness, even in religious school. We may not have understood everything about each other’s backgrounds or religions, but we still built bridges and connected with one another. That’s what we need here: to be a nation of people who can make a concerted effort to connect with those different from us for the sake of truly peaceful coexistence, not who lash out against that which we don’t understand.

When I start a family, that’s what I’m going to teach my children. That’s the America I want them to grow up in.

[dreadgeek]

Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should....

IG:

If I could trouble you for a couple of things:

1) What distance is far enough away? Is a mile far enough? Two miles? No where within the great NYC area? Is Jersey far enough away? If, in fact, the argument is that building this center would be insulting or insensitive, and the issue is that people were traumatized by 9/11 (which is true) then is there *anyplace* in the United States that can be far enough *not* to rile someone? I lost a old friend, a dear friend, in those attacks. Does that mean that Portland, OR is now also too close?

2) If the mosque would be troublesome/insulting/painful then isn't the fact that there is *already* a mosque, closer to the site than this community center will be, already traumatizing? Should that mosque be shut down?

3) If the mere presence of a mosque, which would be a reminder that there are Muslims, then isn't the mere *presence* of Muslims also insulting/painful? Should there be an exclusion zone around the WTC site where no Muslim is allowed to go?

4) Is Tennessee *also* too close to the WTC site? What about California? Is that also too close? I ask purely because mosques in both states have been opposed on the grounds that anywhere a mosque is built, that is a capitulation to Islam.

5) Can you find me a single historical instance wherein a religious minority was targeted for this kind of special treatment and it turned out well? Now, admittedly, I'm not a scholar of history and so my knowledge base is far from complete however, I can't think of a single time when this has turned out well.

6) If it is insensitive toward the people who died on 9/11 for this community center to be built, would it also be fair to say that it is insensitive for, just to take two examples, Christian churches to be anywhere there is a large GLBTQ population? Anyone who was there and everyone who has written history about the first two decades of the HIV pandemic firmly and justifiably places a non-trivial amount of responsibility for the deaths of so many gay men *squarely* at the church door? Along similar lines, would it be fair to say that given that about twice that number of blacks were lynched in the last century that it would be insensitive for white Southern Baptists to build churches near large populations of blacks?

If it isn't insensitive may I ask what the difference is?

[dreadgeek]

Another attack (http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/08/31/1321929/man-attacks-man-wearing-turban.html?story_link=email_msg) on another person who 'looked like' a Muslim. And what was his crime? Wearing a turban.

SEATTLE – A man accused of punching a man wearing a turban at a Seattle convenience store has been charged with malicious harassment - a hate crime - and assault.

KOMO News reports 35-year-old Brock R. Stainbrook of Seattle yelled, "You're not even American, you're al-Qaida. Go back to your country."

A store employee broke up the Aug. 24 attack, and Stainbrook was arrested a few blocks away.


Cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

Just because you can do something, doesnt mean you should....



How come?

I am curious to why they can't since there is a church at every corner like a Starbucks?

[Apocalipstic]

This whole debate and the craziness ensuing all over the rest of the US is probably making actually terrorists really happy.

Yet one more example of how hypocrytical the US is.

It's OK to have peep shows and adult booksstores close to Ground Zero, but not Islamic comunity centers, because why?

We say we are good people, that we have freedom of religion. Sure as long as we approve of the religion people want to practice.

The burning of the equipment being used to buildi the Mosque in Murfresboro and the shots fired will figure in terrorist outreach fils, yet one more example, along with torture, Guantanamo and Abu Grabe of how much the US sucks and hates Islam.

We are going to end up in a huge holy war.

[Heart]

Right, we shouldn't do it because we CAN, we should do it because it's RIGHT.

Self-serving politicians and sensational media hijacked a community discussion and turned it into a national debate/farce.

As a New Yorker who lived through 9-11, I resent LIKE HELL the venting of bias and bullshit, the spreading of race panic, the manipulation of traumatized families, all on the backs of TOTALLY INNOCENT CITIZENS.

[suebee]

I don't think al Quaida will ever have to attack the U.S. again in order to achieve it's goals. Why? Because it's as if they've planted a virus in the land, one that is causing the country to suffer from a national auto-immune type disease, one that causes it to attack itself from within. It's breaking down the national fibre, and leaving the whole country vulnerable to opportunistic infections, such as Glen Beck, Sarah Palin et al.

I've said this before, but this scares the crap out of me.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't think al Quaida will ever have to attack the U.S. again in order to achieve it's goals. Why? Because it's as if they've planted a virus in the land, one that is causing the country to suffer from a national auto-immune type disease, one that causes it to attack itself from within. It's breaking down the national fibre, and leaving the whole country vulnerable to opportunistic infections, such as Glen Beck, Sarah Palin et al.

I've said this before, but this scares the crap out of me.

They are undoubtedly quite amused with how we are tearing ourselves apart.

[MsDemeanor]

Aj, here's one more:

7) If it's not insensitive for Muslims to hold daily prayer right on top of a 9/11 crash site that overlooks a memorial for same (they've been doing it without complaints for eight years), then why is insensitive for Muslims to learn to cook and to play basketball in an abandoned building several blocks from a 9/11 crash site?

[Toughy]

Aj, here's one more:

7) If it's not insensitive for Muslims to hold daily prayer right on top of a 9/11 crash site that overlooks a memorial for same (they've been doing it without complaints for eight years), then why is insensitive for Muslims to learn to cook and to play basketball in an abandoned building several blocks from a 9/11 crash site?


there you go again...............confusing the issue with trivial tidbits of information.....

[MsDemeanor]

there you go again...............confusing the issue with trivial tidbits of information.....
Yep. Quite the fact-centric little bitch, aren't I?

[Heart]

Not to mention that swaths of downtown Manhattan were built on top of the remains of African American slaves and Native peoples. Talk about "hallowed ground..."

Read this: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/08/ground-zero-was-built-graves-slaves

[dreadgeek]

It would appear--based upon this incident (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/09/teens_harass_muslims_in_upstate_new_york.php?ref=f pb)--that upstate New York is also 'too close' to the WTC site for a mosque to exist.

Five teenagers have been arrested for disrupting religious services at a mosque in upstate New York after allegedly driving by the mosque during Ramadan services, honking their horns and firing a shotgun.

The five, who are all 17 and 18, have allegedly driven by the World Sufi Foundation mosque in Carlton, N.Y., during Ramadan services twice over the past week, yelling obscenities.

Last Friday, one of them also fired a shotgun into the ground. No one was hurt. He was charged with criminal possession of a weapon, a felony; the others have only been charged with disrupting religious services, a misdemeanor, but more charges are expected.

And before it is said:

1) Yes, it would be better if the 3000 people who died on 9/11 had not died. That said, this incident doesn't bring any of them back.

2) Acknowledging that incident is wrong and, in fact, a sign that this debate about the Cordoba house is about more than mere proximity of the center to the WTC does not mean that I am in bed with, encouraging of, or apologizing for terrorism NOR does it mean that I am pro-Islam (it's just more monotheism to me) or that I want sharia law applied to the United States. Clearly the issue is beyond proximity to the WTC site though. If it weren't then would it not be logical that it wouldn't *matter* where mosques were built as long as that distance was > N-distance from the WTC site?

3) If it's reasonable to hold Muslims who had *nothing* to do with 9/11 responsible such that building a mosque within N-distance of the WTC site is unacceptable then it is *equally* reasonable to hold opponents of the Cordoba house responsible for the incident above, and the one in Tennessee and the one in Seattle and the next incident and the one after that. Unless, of course, someone can tell me why it is reasonable to hold all Muslims accountable for the actions of some.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Here's the thing I find quite frustrating about this argument--I have *yet* to see a compelling reason given. What I've heard or read, so far, are lots of variations on the theme of "they have the right to build what they want, provided that they don't actually build it". I've heard a lot of statements along the lines of "it's an insult to those who died"--without saying how those who died are insulted. Yet, I haven't seen an explanation for why Muslims--all 1 billion of them--can be held responsible or, at least, share in the culpability of those 19 enterprising young men from Saudi Arabia but it is entirely unreasonable to, for instance, to hold all white Americans responsible for, say, the decimation of native populations in the Americas or the enslavement of Africans, or the apartheid that was both the custom and law in America an South Africa until the last part of the 20th century, or....

I wonder why it is that there's no explanations forthcoming about why collective responsibility applies to the minority but not the majority.


Cheers
Aj



Not to mention that swaths of downtown Manhattan were built on top of the remains of African American slaves and Native peoples. Talk about "hallowed ground..."

Read this: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2010/08/ground-zero-was-built-graves-slaves

Yep. Quite the fact-centric little bitch, aren't I?

there you go again...............confusing the issue with trivial tidbits of information.....

[paposeco]

there you go again...............confusing the issue with trivial tidbits of information.....

I'm thinking you must be jesting. "trivial bits of information." ?? are you being funny/sarcastic?

[suebee]

I'm thinking you must be jesting. "trivial bits of information." ?? are you being funny/sarcastic?

I think she's making fun of the folks who are protesting the mosque, but seem to have no idea what they're talking about.

[paposeco]

I think she's making fun of the folks who are protesting the mosque, but seem to have no idea what they're talking about.

ahhh...thank God, for a minute there....lol.

I know that there are 'radicals', nut-jobs, of every kind, case and point--->right-wingnut-christians! These folks do and have done more damage than any Mosque anywhere will ever do.

If we say NO! to the building of the Mosque, then we must say NO! to any Church being built anywhere (following the nut-bags' logic), because Lord knows how much death and destruction has been been committed and sanctioned by the "Christians". (read some books on the history of the Christian movement). I used to call myself a Christian, but these radicalChristians, give God/Christ a bad name. If they're really CHRISTians, why are they being so UN-Christ like.
Here's the deal, they are NOT CHRISTians, if they were, they would look more like CHRIST, instead of a bunch of fear and hate mongers.
So you see, there are nut-jobs of every faith, not just the Muslims or someone else we don't agree with. Don't just swallow what people tell you, not even FOX & FREAKS, Palin...etc, use the brain the good Lord gave you. Think for yourself, reason, educate yourself, discuss, be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so. Why do these self-righteous people(fear&hate mongers) think God died and left themin charge of every body's life, when they can't even manage their own hypocrisy.
I say, let the Muslims have their building.
The rest of you Palins and Becks and Rushs..go get some humility and look up the word HYPOCRISY. And instead of proclaiming that YOU are a CHRISTIAN, how about actually LIVING AND ACTING LIKE A CHRISTian.

[Toughy]

I'm thinking you must be jesting. "trivial bits of information." ?? are you being funny/sarcastic?

No I was actually very serious......laughin....

seriously I was being sarcastic.....msdemeanor and I are old lefty friends.........


besides...........in this crowd had I been serious my ass would be flaming big time...........laughin

[paposeco]

No I was actually very serious......laughin....

seriously I was being sarcastic.....msdemeanor and I are old lefty friends.........


besides...........in this crowd had I been serious my ass would be flaming big time...........laughin

from one lefty:hangloose:to another...I'm glad you were being "seriously...sarcastic", and not sarcastly serious...lol

[AtLast]

from one lefty:hangloose:to another...I'm glad you were being "seriously...sarcastic", and not sarcastly serious...lol

Hey, we can count on Toughy for this.... way serious informed, lefty. Sometimes I get so crazed by what is going on, a little humor of any kind helps!

[AtLast]

ahhh...thank God, for a minute there....lol.

I know that there are 'radicals', nut-jobs, of every kind, case and point--->right-wingnut-christians! These folks do and have done more damage than any Mosque anywhere will ever do.

If we say NO! to the building of the Mosque, then we must say NO! to any Church being built anywhere (following the nut-bags' logic), because Lord knows how much death and destruction has been been committed and sanctioned by the "Christians". (read some books on the history of the Christian movement). I used to call myself a Christian, but these radicalChristians, give God/Christ a bad name. If they're really CHRISTians, why are they being so UN-Christ like.
Here's the deal, they are NOT CHRISTians, if they were, they would look more like CHRIST, instead of a bunch of fear and hate mongers.
So you see, there are nut-jobs of every faith, not just the Muslims or someone else we don't agree with. Don't just swallow what people tell you, not even FOX & FREAKS, Palin...etc, use the brain the good Lord gave you. Think for yourself, reason, educate yourself, discuss, be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so. Why do these self-righteous people(fear&hate mongers) think God died and left themin charge of every body's life, when they can't even manage their own hypocrisy.
I say, let the Muslims have their building.
The rest of you Palins and Becks and Rushs..go get some humility and look up the word HYPOCRISY. And instead of proclaiming that YOU are a CHRISTIAN, how about actually LIVING AND ACTING LIKE A CHRISTian.

Personally, I believe we have enough churches of every type and would love to see more schools, hospitals, etc. being built. I am spiritual and have some left over churchy-stuff and honor anyone's religion, but, as one GOP congressperson said.. COME ON! Yes, I'm being a smartass. Sometimes the tax breaks relgious organizations and churches get, plus the amount of private funds thrown their way and the state of our social services, I get really pissed.

I am so tired of the ME, ME, MINE set of so many in the US.

[AtLast]

Just mulling something over...

Would there be a difference to the anti-Islamic factions, if the planned prayer room (it is NOT a Mosque!!) were taken out of the equation? Just a community center for Muslim folks, without a room designated for prayer? Frankly, I think not. This BS would have been the same if the proposed plans did not have this as part of the construction goals.

Also, I have taken part in many events, etc. in community centers of all kinds. Some religious, some not. Most have some kind of prayer room in them, and many are non-sectarian- just a room for quiet contemplation and some privacy. Even in centers that were built by a particular religion, prayer rooms were open for anyone of any religion (or none) to use. Hospitals with no religious ties also have such rooms or chapels which are open to all.

Frankly, most types of municipal community-based organizational structures have to follow codes and ordinances based within their municipality and cannot stop anyone from using their facilities as long as dues, etc. are paid and rules followed. A Catholic or Baptist can utilize gym equipment, rent facilities for an event, etc. in a community center of another faith.

Hummmmm... I have given myself some more homework as to finding out if in fact this prayer room would be open to any person, including non-Muslims (having a quiet, meditative space in a large noisy city is a good thing for any of us, I believe)?

Argh... where do I look into NYC ordinances for this kind of structure and organization? Just because it is being constructed by a particular religion, does not mean it will serve only that population.

Trying to focus on the community in the community center concept, here!

[SuperFemme]

LwqQSQ8THPI

[SuperFemme]

European Islamophobia Finds A Home In The U.S.

Reza Aslan is a contributing editor at The Daily Beast. He is the author of No God But God and Beyond Fundamentalism.

You may have heard the ad put out by the National Republican Trust Political Action Committee: "On Sept. 11, they declared war against us. And to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous 13-story mosque at ground zero."

Did you catch that? They attacked us on 9/11, and now they want to build a mosque at ground zero.

This is what has become of the debate over the construction of an Islamic community center in Lower Manhattan. You know, the so-called mosque at ground zero that's neither a mosque nor at ground zero.

No matter what your feelings are about the proposed community center, there can be little doubt that Islamophobia is on the rise in America.
A Washington Post poll released last year found that nearly half of Americans — 48 percent — have an unfavorable view of Islam. That's nine points higher than in the months after the Sept. 11 attacks. A new national survey by the Pew Research Center found that 30 percent of those who disapprove of President Obama's job performance believe he is Muslim.

What's more disturbing is that anti-Muslim sentiment seems to have gone mainstream, with fringe groups like Stop Islamization of America — which is behind many of the protests in lower Manhattan and has been participating in similar anti-Muslim rallies across the country — suddenly receiving regular air time on mainstream media outlets.

Stop Islamization of America is actually an affiliate of a European organization called Stop Islamization of Europe, an anti-Muslim hate group whose motto is "Racism is the lowest form of human stupidity, but Islamophobia is the height of common sense."

The connection between the two organizations is telling.
In Europe, the passage of laws curtailing the rights and freedoms of Muslims and the success of avowedly anti-Islam political parties have led to a sense of marginalization and disenfranchisement among Europe's Muslim communities. That in turn has led to what I believe is a sharp increase in radicalization among Europe's young Muslims.

For years, scholars like myself who've studied these radicalization trends have confidently argued that the kind of institutionalized Islamophobia one sees in large parts of Europe could never take hold in the U.S. That America's unbreakable dedication to religious liberties would never allow anti-Muslim sentiment to become mainstream. That, in fact, America's Muslim community — educated, prosperous, moderate and integrated into every level of American society — may be our nation's greatest weapon in fighting the ideology of radical extremism.

It seems we were wrong. The same kind of Islamophobia that has made much of Europe inhospitable to its Muslim citizens is now threatening to seize the U.S.

he fear is that this may lead to the same kind of radicalization among Muslim youth in the U.S. that we've seen in Europe. It has already played into the hands of al-Qaida, which has for years been trying to convince American Muslims that the unfettered religious freedoms they enjoy is a mirage — that the U.S. will eventually turn against its Muslim citizens. Are we in danger of proving al-Qaida right?

I am a liberal, progressive, secularized American Muslim. But when I see that bigotry against my faith — my very identity — has become so commonplace in America that it is shaping into a wedge issue for the midterm elections, I can barely control my anger.

I can't imagine how the next generation of American Muslim youth will react to such provocations. I pray that we never find out.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129381552

[Jude]

Atlasthome,
Whether or not there is a prayer hall (of course there will be) isn't the issue. The scared folks who've watched too much Fox news are terrified that these folks are going to use their community meeting rooms to plan attacks on innocent Americans.

To answer your question, however, a mosque prayer hall is open to anyone at all so long as they observe proper Islamic etiquette, i.e., women covering their hair and dressed modestly and men observing the Islamic dress code for their gender. In fact, I'm sure anyone would be welcomed and given a free Quran for their visit :-).

Did you know that travelers in other countries stop overnight in mosques sometimes. Nobody asks if they are Muslim. People even stop in to have an afternoon nap on the carpets without raising an eye brow.

Sad fact is that our media has inundated us with a lot of B.S. about one of the world's major religions -- made these folks out to be terrorists and Al Qada sympathizers. How soon we forget about the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition and the persecution of the Jews of Europe, of course.

It's unlikely that we shall have the whole and accurate story of what happened on 911 in any of our lifetimes.

Take away the constitutional rights of one faction of people in America and rest assured that there's no going to be a lot of empathy for the rights demanded by gay people.

[Toughy]

The scared folks who've watched too much Fox news are terrified that these folks are going to use their community meeting rooms to plan attacks on innocent Americans.


Once upon a time, long ago, on another website, at a Bash, there was an announced POC only gathering.. No non-POC allowed including non-POC partners of POCs...........in other words...........no white folk allowed....

ya would have thought the POC only gathering had a specific purpose to plot, plan and implement the take-over of the entire website, plus the entire world. Why arent us whitey allowed? What are you gonna talk about whitey can't hear? OMG you are planning to kill all white folk and take over the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dang............POC got together and the fucking world continued to turn and global climate change did not hesitate in it's march toward disastrous change for all human beings........... including those rich mother fucking white men who control money...........

[AtLast]

Atlasthome,
Whether or not there is a prayer hall (of course there will be) isn't the issue. The scared folks who've watched too much Fox news are terrified that these folks are going to use their community meeting rooms to plan attacks on innocent Americans.

To answer your question, however, a mosque prayer hall is open to anyone at all so long as they observe proper Islamic etiquette, i.e., women covering their hair and dressed modestly and men observing the Islamic dress code for their gender. In fact, I'm sure anyone would be welcomed and given a free Quran for their visit :-).

Did you know that travelers in other countries stop overnight in mosques sometimes. Nobody asks if they are Muslim. People even stop in to have an afternoon nap on the carpets without raising an eye brow.

Sad fact is that our media has inundated us with a lot of B.S. about one of the world's major religions -- made these folks out to be terrorists and Al Qada sympathizers. How soon we forget about the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition and the persecution of the Jews of Europe, of course.

It's unlikely that we shall have the whole and accurate story of what happened on 911 in any of our lifetimes.

Take away the constitutional rights of one faction of people in America and rest assured that there's no going to be a lot of empathy for the rights demanded by gay people.

Thank you so much for this information!

I have been thinking a lot about this (why I posted earlier) because there are many centers that have a specific religious afiliation that are open to all. And it seems to me that requiring respect and observance to the religion at hand is just not a big deal and is usual and customary. Way back as a Catholic student involved in Newman Center organizations on college campuses, the prayer room or someties called a chapel was open to anyone visiting our center. We also had accomodations for overnight travelers, too. They didn't have to be Catholic at all.

These centers were far more liberal than regular Catholic parishes, but the idea was about community interaction within and outside of the catholic faith. There were requirements then, too, but many of the prior kinds of things like women having to cover their heads during a Mass were no longer observed and women were deacons and alter girls. Not the church of my parents and grandparents! Actually, there are many, many traditional Catholic rituals and requirements of women in the past that don't differ much from some of what a woman would be subjected to in an Islamic mosque. I don't agree with any of this with either religion (it's about patriarchal tenets for me), but, what is important here is the fact that a center such as this with a prayer room is open to anyone of any faith- or those not having a faith at all.

Gee, kind of knocks the whacko's fear of all those Islamic people gathering without the rest of us being allowed in to plot against us, doesn't it?

Thanks, again.

[Jude]

Hmmmmm, Baptist extremists can be fairly daunting too, ya' know.

The little cosmic joke is that Islam and Judaism are fundamentally the same Abrahamic faith. The only real differences are that Muslims acknowledge Jesus (Issa) as a prophet and messiah (not the son of G/d) and consider, of course, Prophet Muhammed as a genuine prophet. Basically the same laws govern both faiths and neither faith gives more rights to women than another. Christianity, of course, is also an Abrahamic faith at its core and women are admonished to "keep silent in the church". So, in which faith (as it is generally practiced) does a woman stand the best chance? Probably the answer would be none of the above.

Nonetheless, we must respect the right of people to make their own choices as to their beliefs and interpretation, so long as they don't directly affect our own right to liberty.

If one chooses to bow down to Humpty Dumpty and their life is more meaningful having done so, G/d bless 'em. Just don't force me to follow suit.

[FeminineAllure]

ahhh...thank God, for a minute there....lol.

I know that there are 'radicals', nut-jobs, of every kind, case and point--->right-wingnut-christians! These folks do and have done more damage than any Mosque anywhere will ever do.

If we say NO! to the building of the Mosque, then we must say NO! to any Church being built anywhere (following the nut-bags' logic), because Lord knows how much death and destruction has been been committed and sanctioned by the "Christians". (read some books on the history of the Christian movement). I used to call myself a Christian, but these radicalChristians, give God/Christ a bad name. If they're really CHRISTians, why are they being so UN-Christ like.
Here's the deal, they are NOT CHRISTians, if they were, they would look more like CHRIST, instead of a bunch of fear and hate mongers.
So you see, there are nut-jobs of every faith, not just the Muslims or someone else we don't agree with. Don't just swallow what people tell you, not even FOX & FREAKS, Palin...etc, use the brain the good Lord gave you. Think for yourself, reason, educate yourself, discuss, be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so. Why do these self-righteous people(fear&hate mongers) think God died and left themin charge of every body's life, when they can't even manage their own hypocrisy.
I say, let the Muslims have their building.
The rest of you Palins and Becks and Rushs..go get some humility and look up the word HYPOCRISY. And instead of proclaiming that YOU are a CHRISTIAN, how about actually LIVING AND ACTING LIKE A CHRISTian.


I am so tired that I must respond to all of your interpretations regarding
this threads topic when I find more time.
I will say you seem to be generalizing many groups of different peoples.
And of course being Bipolar The words "nut-jobs" and "nut-bags" jumped right off your post at me since I abhor those words.
Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post.

[paposeco]

I am so tired that I must respond to all of your interpretations regarding
this threads topic when I find more time.
I will say you seem to be generalizing many groups of different peoples.
And of course being Bipolar The words "nut-jobs" and "nut-bags" jumped right off your post at me since I abhor those words.
Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post.

I was not 'generalizing' about anything or anyone. There are, like I said, crazy people(by choice, because they choose not educate themselves), that do hateful things, and the said people come all in types, yes, I did reffer to them as 'nut-jobs', (that is what they are, they weren't born with it, they choose to be ignorant to the point of hate and violence) I think it's one good description, for that segment of folks, surely they are not rational! I did not know that you are bipolar, my thread was in no way meant to offend you nor anyone else on this site. There are too many words that may offend a lot of people for various reasons, our expression here on this post or any other, would be rather limited, if we had to check with everyone to make sure that this word or that didn't "offend" someone. I've read things on this very post that have rubbed me the wrong way, but hey..it's freedom of speech/expression.
I am sorry you are bipolar, but I in no way meant to hurt or disrespect YOU or any other. Now, as far as me being a Christian, (I do the best I can with God's help, even with all my faults I try to be aware of my words and actions, but you can't please everybody)..but generally speaking that is between me and God! I'm sure you may have reason to question your own spirituality from time to time, but that likewise is your business. As for humbling myself, thanks,... I'll take that into consideration, in the light of your open minded response to my point of view.
Know this one thing for sure, I am the last person that you will find being a "fear and hate monger"! I have too many times been a victim of this crap to pass it on to anyone else!! I'm glad that you are 'looking forward' to my 'open mindeness'..when you or Anyone Else posts. I do not believe I've disrespected anyone here, not intentionally. I'm sorry if my words upset you, or triggered something. My words were not meant to hurt, like everyone else on this post, I was just adding my own two cents by stating the truth about some people, be they christian, muslim, catholic, or what have you. In a nut-shell (excuse me)I was speaking about intolerance as a whole. It was not an attack on you. You have the right to your opinion, without being scolded for expressing it right? well so does everybody else.
This is a democracy, if there are folks here that were offended by me and my opinion, please let me know. I realize that most if not all of you don't know me, I was just expressing my opinion, like the rest of you...but if you find that what I've written was offensive, "hateful and fear mongering"..than let me know and I'll be gone from this thread. Thanks. . posts

[FeminineAllure]

I am so tired that I must respond to all of your interpretations regarding
this threads topic when I find more time.
I will say you seem to be generalizing many groups of different peoples.
And of course being Bipolar The words "nut-jobs" and "nut-bags" jumped right off your post at me since I abhor those words.
Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post.

I find it interesting that you assume I am overtly triggered by certain words yet you seem triggered by your own words thinking it was I that was using them when they were quoted from your own posts.

"Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post."

The above is your own thoughts I quoted in my last post.

And no, I do not think IMO that a Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero is appropriate. And I try not to be a hypocrite and live my life like a Christian.

[FeminineAllure]

I think it would be nice to have a space for all beliefs and religions to come together to spend time. A tribute to all faiths of those who were killed as well as their family members. It would bring people together rather than seperate them.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So where can Muslims go that is gonna be OK for all Christian folks?

I mean come on FA why can't this Community Center be built near Ground Zero?

Would it be better had it been a Christian church? Why can't the citizens MUSLIM citizens of New York have a place to go, I am confused can you explain why you think this is not ok?

Thanks in advance

[Rook]

I found this to be Very true, and thought provoking...

Two blocks is enough to generate controversy. But then it occurred to me: that's in Manhattan, which is a terrifically diverse place, both ethnically and religiously. It has large populations of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Sikhs and "people of the Muslim faith" as Some call them (I am going to go ahead and just call them Muslims.) So as to why someone might want to build a mosque down there, well, there's probably a need.

But then I started thinking: If the WTC "sacred ground" extends for a few blocks from the actual site, what else might be down there to offend the sensibilities of, say, Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck? For instance, there's a Ground Zero Hookah bar. A Ground Zero Irish pub. A Ground Zero strip club called "New York Dolls" (Not that I knew that; I looked it up on Google Maps. Swear to god.)

There are Ground Zero hot-dog carts, Ground Zero Starbucks (how could there not be?), Ground Zero cigarette stores, and even a Ground Zero shop called "Carrot Top Pastries," which I assume isn't endorsed by THAT Carrot Top, or that would be an abomination. An abomination against good taste.

All this, just blocks from Ground Zero. Now, if you are actually AT Ground Zero, you find a Ground Zero pawn shop, A Ground Zero Chinese restaurant called Hoyip, the Ground Zero hair dresser and a Ground Zero Burger King.

All of them cutting hair, pawning jewelry and clogging American arteries without a hint of controversy.

So let me suggest two reasons why we would not have a national referendum on the mosque (actually a community center).. The first is the oft-referenced freedom of religion, and that's a pretty good reason. The second is property rights: people have the right to, more or less, do whatever they want with the property they own, as long as it is within the law (which appears to be true of the mosque).

The idea that I would have a vote on a private party doing what they have the right to do strikes me as inherently un-American.
What if we all had a vote on guns? Not on the right of gun ownership, but on which individuals could own guns.
Believe me, I know a few gun owners who, if I only had the vote...
And of course I don't, because that would be ridiculous. You know what else is ridiculous? The controversy surrounding the Ground Zero mosque. Those opposed to the mosque frame the argument in terms of respecting the sensibilities of the victims' families, and to the hallowed ground that still to this day is an undeveloped plot of land (if you're looking for a real controversy).
But let us stop pretending and call this "controversy" what it is: a xenophobic, bigoted attack on the religion of over a billion people, 37,000 of whom live in Manhattan: those "of the Muslim faith."

Thomas Strodtbeck
Liverpool, United Kingdom
(Formerly of Athens)

:seeingstars:

[Toughy]

FA......

It is NOT a Mosque. It is a Community Center that also has a prayer room. It's called the Cordoba House.

How is that inappropriate, considering the number of strip joints and liquor stores that are closer to that 'sacred ground'?

Does that change your opinion?

[FeminineAllure]

So where can Muslims go that is gonna be OK for all Christian folks?

I mean come on FA why can't this Community Center be built near Ground Zero?

Would it be better had it been a Christian church? Why can't the citizens MUSLIM citizens of New York have a place to go, I am confused can you explain why you think this is not ok?

Thanks in advance

I did not state that Muslims can't build their community center near Ground Zero. Or that the space would be better if it was a Christian church. I never said it was not ok. In my opinion I stated I felt that space would be *better used as a place for *all faiths and religions* to be able to go to* pay tribute being so close to Ground Zero. And if it was a Christian space available or any other religion I would feel the same way.
I hold nothing personal against Musilims or any other religion Lady Snow. Or do I think any religion is better than any other one.
I hope I clarified my thoughts better this time.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I did not state that Muslims can't build their community center near Ground Zero. Or that the space would be better if it was a Christian church. I never said it was not ok. In my opinion I stated I felt that space would be *better used as a place for *all faiths and religions* to be able to go to* pay tribute being so close to Ground Zero. And if it was a Christian space available or any other religion I would feel the same way.
I hold nothing personal against Musilims or any other religion Lady Snow. Or do I think any religion is better than any other one.
I hope I clarified my thoughts better this time.


Why though?

Why can't Muslim's have this place to go to? Why can't there be a Community Center built so close?

What is your reasoning?

Truly curious, thanks in advance

[FeminineAllure]

FA......

It is NOT a Mosque. It is a Community Center that also has a prayer room. It's called the Cordoba House.

How is that inappropriate, considering the number of strip joints and liquor stores that are closer to that 'sacred ground'?

Does that change your opinion?

I admit that *Inappropriate* is a poor word choice.
I still belive it would be nice to have an all faiths space to go to pay tribute and remember lost loved ones of who were of many different faiths.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I admit that *Inappropriate* is a poor word choice.
I still belive it would be nice to have an all faiths space to go to pay tribute and remember lost loved ones of who were of many different faiths.

Do you feel the Community Center is being built as some kind of tribute ?

I am confused by this as well, thanks in advance

[Toughy]

I think it would be nice to have a space for all beliefs and religions to come together to spend time. A tribute to all faiths of those who were killed as well as their family members. It would bring people together rather than seperate them.

They are building a memorial that will serve this purpose right there ON ground zero. Do you think there needs to be more than one memorial?

Besides what about the atheists that were killed during 9/11?

Continuing to couch 9/11 in religious terms is divisive, not the building of a Islamic Community Center a couple of blocks away. Islam did not fly airplanes into the WTC. A bunch of fundamentalist wahhabist educated terrorists who were all from Saudi Arabia did the deed.

[FeminineAllure]

Why though?

Why can't Muslim's have this place to go to? Why can't there be a Community Center built so close?

What is your reasoning?

Truly curious, thanks in advance

As I stated to Toughy. I chose a poor word choice. I surely am not the only one on this site to do that. I own up to my mistakes. That is the best I can do.
I feel any religion that has access to building a community center and a prayer room so close to Ground Zero would be really compassionate to share that space with other faiths.
Unless a strip joint or liquor store would be willing to sell their business to offer a space nearby as well. Which is not going to happen.

[The_Lady_Snow]

As I stated to Toughy. I chose a poor word choice. I surely am not the only one on this site to do that. I own up to my mistakes. That is the best I can do.
I feel any religion that has access to building a community center and a prayer room so close to Ground Zero would be really compassionate to share that space with other faiths.
Unless a strip joint or liquor store would be willing to sell their business to offer a space nearby as well. Which is not going to happen.


Why is it so scary for Muslims to build a community center? Why is it disrespecful?

Why is it wrong for Muslims to build a community center so close to Ground Zero?

You do realize many Muslims were killed during that attack. I don't understand why it's not ok ?

Who is it going to hurt? scare? Insult?

[Jude]

Every mosque and synagogue has both a "sanctuary" and offices and rooms for meetings and community events. I'd suspect that virtually every church that's been constructed in the past 50 years likely also provides space for church business and members and guests to hold gatherings. That's part of the function of a religious institution -- a place for the community to gather. There is no such thing as a Muslim Community Center that would not offer prayer space.
Twenty percent of American republicans believe that Obama is a closet Muslim and was born in Kenya. Far more Americans believe that the perpetrators of 911 were caught and are all Muslims and nobody else had any involvement whatsoever. Perhaps in the lives of our grandchildren there will be an authentic investigation.
The investigation of 911 was conducted a lot like the Israeli investigation of the murders of 9 civil rights workers on the flotilla from Turkey attempting to deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza. Imagine - Israel investigated itself. (Becha they come up innocent, ech?).
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Shihks and atheists were all killed in 911.
Three thousand people died. Look how many people we have massacred in Iraq and Afghanistan since 911. I guess american lives are infinitly more valuable than those of backwards Arabs who don't know enough to appreciate our invastion.
Much of the fucking world should be sacred ground dedicated to the hapless innocent lives lost at the hands of aggressors.
Sad state of affairs that we just never learn from history. We go on repeating the same sickening errors time and time again ad nauseum.
I wonder how one can come to live a sacred life in this world.

[SuperFemme]

LwqQSQ8THPI

FA?
I beg of you to watch this video.
It will show you the area surrounding Ground Zero, exactly where the Islamic Community Center is proposed to be built AND the many many many churches already there.

Does that change your perception a little? Because I feel like your opinion is based on a point that is missing a lot of fact. I hope that the video can fill in those facts for you.

[paposeco]

Why is it so scary for Muslims to build a community center? Why is it disrespecful?

Why is it wrong for Muslims to build a community center so close to Ground Zero?

You do realize many Muslims were killed during that attack. I don't understand why it's not ok ?

Who is it going to hurt? scare? Insult?

Thank You. If a so called christian based faith wanted to do the same, (oh wait..they have their churches...) would we be having this discussion? would it cause such an uproar? I doubt it. Thanks for your logic, truth, fairness and open mindedness.

[SuperFemme]

Islamophobia

there is no other viable reason than this to even give it a second thought.

do you know that something like 48% of the people here who disapprove of President Obama believe he is a Muslim?

are we really as a society dumbing it down to the point that we let the wave of fear mongering sweep us along the tide of racism and hatred whilst the government laughs at us and quietly strips away our civil liberties one by one?

to *me* a patriot act would be putting a Mosque directly ON Ground Zero instead of a community center blocks away. but then again i am not down with the fact the the SCOTUS just ruled that the government can put GPS tracking devices on our vehicles while they are on the private property of our own driveways so they can track and follow us without a warrant.

not too many people noticed this ruling because we are all busy worrying about a Mosque that isn't a Mosque being opened on a Ground Zero that isn't Ground Zero.

For fucks sake.

[paposeco]

by FA: "...'It would bring people together rather than seperate them'.

who exactly is doing the seperating?? the Muslims?? or the the hating and the fear mongering crowd ?? So much for tolerance and acceptance.
The TRUTH may be a bitter pill for some to swallow, but it's still way better than the alternative.

[FeminineAllure]

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/ground-zero-mosque-the-real-issue/

[betenoire]

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/ground-zero-mosque-the-real-issue/

Wow. I don't even need to finish that article to know that the entire thing is not based on fact, but rather on fear and hatred.

"The proposed mosque near to ground zero is not really a religious institution. It would be — as many mosques throughout the nation are — a terrorist recruitment, indoctrination and training center."

How can you possibly believe that the above quote is true?

[FeminineAllure]

"But there are non-Sharia mosques where peaceful and spiritual Muslims worship God in their own way without promoting violence. A soon-to-be published study funded by Frank Gaffney’s Center for Security Policy, found that 20% of the mosques in the United States have no taint of Sharia and simply promote peaceful worship."

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/ground-zero-mosque-the-real-issue/


This right wing loon appears regularly on Fox News....

[betenoire]

"But there are non-Sharia mosques where peaceful and spiritual Muslims worship God in their own way without promoting violence. A soon-to-be published study funded by Frank Gaffney’s Center for Security Policy, found that 20% of the mosques in the United States have no taint of Sharia and simply promote peaceful worship."

1 - Anybody can make a study to prove anything that they want. I'm sure you could also find studies that have the exact opposite results.

2 - Frank Gaffney is not a sane, responsible, or unbiased voice. If you do some research on him you'll find that he's got a very clear hate-on bias against Muslims. It's personal for him. I do not trust anything he says on the subject, or anything said by any organisation that he is a part of. The man has no credibility as far as this issue is concerned.

3 - At least the truth has come out. I'm glad that you have admitted (in a roundabout way) that your true issue is not about "bringing people together v dividing people" and rather about "scary Muslims". Thanks, I always like to know who I'm dealing with.

[betenoire]

Frank Gaffney is a batshit paranoid moron who believes that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11, the '93 attacks on the WTC -and- the Oklahoma City bombing.

linkyloo (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_03/017271.php)

Why would anybody take -anything- he says seriously?

[The_Lady_Snow]

"But there are non-Sharia mosques where peaceful and spiritual Muslims worship God in their own way without promoting violence. A soon-to-be published study funded by Frank Gaffney’s Center for Security Policy, found that 20% of the mosques in the United States have no taint of Sharia and simply promote peaceful worship."


I find it gross that you act like you are all about a place where everyone should come and worship, when it's obvious you have bought into the whole scary Muslim people are gathering and building terrorist training camps.

It's just gross.

[FeminineAllure]

1 - Anybody can make a study to prove anything that they want. I'm sure you could also find studies that have the exact opposite results.

2 - Frank Gaffney is not a sane, responsible, or unbiased voice. If you do some research on him you'll find that he's got a very clear hate-on bias against Muslims. It's personal for him. I do not trust anything he says on the subject, or anything said by any organisation that he is a part of. The man has no credibility as far as this issue is concerned.

3 - At least the truth has come out. I'm glad that you have admitted (in a roundabout way) that your true issue is not about "bringing people together v dividing people" and rather about "scary Muslims". Thanks, I always like to know who I'm dealing with.

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.


Do you really think that the Center that is being built in New York is a a place where people are being recruited to fight and kill???


Really?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

These points of view are spreading hate and lies about a people. It's blatantly obvious ffs it's a COMMUNITY CENTER not a military camp.

[betenoire]

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

I don't believe for one second that you were playing Devil's Advocate.

[FeminineAllure]

I find it gross that you act like you are all about a place where everyone should come and worship, when it's obvious you have bought into the whole scary Muslim people are gathering and building terrorist training camps.

It's just gross.

I find it "gross" Lady Snow that you and some others have assumed from my postings on this thread as well as an article I shared not wrote myself is a
reflexion of what I am all about and what I believe. I may not be as popular as you are on this site but I have the same rights as a community member that you do. So assume away. I have not put words in your mouth or assumed or criticized you as you have me in this thread.

[Soon]

I find it "gross" Lady Snow that you and some others have assumed from my postings on this thread as well as an article I shared not wrote myself is a
reflexion of what I am all about and what I believe. I may not be as popular as you are on this site but I have the same rights as a community member that you do. So assume away. I have not put words in your mouth or assumed or criticized you as you have me in this thread.

FeminineAllure,

I think that when a member posts an article--especially on such a contentious issue--that others may presume that the poster may concur with some of their statements? Also, when the link is provided without any statement of whether you agree or disagree--people will presume you abide by that article or at least find things interesting that you wish to share with the forum.

I post links/articles that reflect my ideology and so it isn't surprising that some may believe your opinions are reflected in the article you chose to post.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I find it "gross" Lady Snow that you and some others have assumed from my postings on this thread as well as an article I shared not wrote myself is a
reflexion of what I am all about and what I believe. I may not be as popular as you are on this site but I have the same rights as a community member that you do. So assume away. I have not put words in your mouth or assumed or criticized you as you have me in this thread.


Are you saying that "my popularity" is keeping your from posting your thoughts and ideals about the Community Center?

:|

I am going to ask again...


Do you really think that the Center that is being built in New York is a a place where people are being recruited to fight and kill???


Really?



You should view this cause it's a good laugh and well ridiculous as the article you posted

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/351569/august-24-2010/terror-bunker-5200

[SuperFemme]

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/ground-zero-mosque-the-real-issue/

It's NOT a MOSQUE! Do you subscribe to this guys viewpoint? I'm asking because I am genuinely interested.

"But there are non-Sharia mosques where peaceful and spiritual Muslims worship God in their own way without promoting violence. A soon-to-be published study funded by Frank Gaffney’s Center for Security Policy, found that 20% of the mosques in the United States have no taint of Sharia and simply promote peaceful worship."

Again, the Islamic Community Center is not a Mosque. Statistics from a not yet published study by a group with questionable ethics isn't fact. It is Islamophobia.

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

What is your opinion? You seem to be feeling attacked, but you are not really being clear on what it is you are saying.

I find it "gross" Lady Snow that you and some others have assumed from my postings on this thread as well as an article I shared not wrote myself is a
reflexion of what I am all about and what I believe. I may not be as popular as you are on this site but I have the same rights as a community member that you do. So assume away. I have not put words in your mouth or assumed or criticized you as you have me in this thread.

"And no, I do not think IMO that a Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero is appropriate. And I try not to be a hypocrite and live my life like a Christian."

The above in bold is a quote by you. I think that negates people assuming what your beliefs are. You've stated your opinion and then followed it up with a blog that concurs with you.

Of course you have a right to your opinion, nobody is saying that you do not. Everyone has the right to an opinion and when we state it on an open forum it's going to be discussed.

A lot of people have tried to discuss with you the FACTS around the Islamic Community Center (NOT A MOSQUE) and now you are saying it is about being popular.

I know you know that is not true.

If you are against the center then fine. You are against it. If others are for it then we are going to discuss.

There is no room to play victim.

[Corkey]

It isn't about popularity, and it isn't a contest, it is about facts and how those facts are misrepresented to the viewing audience.
Fact, Islam is not the enemy.
Fact, The Qur'an is a religious book, the same as the bible.
Fact, the american public has become engrossed in mob mentality.
Fact the community center is not a camp for terrorists.
Fact the religious right have lost their collective minds over their brothers building a center when they have several already closer to "ground zero" than the Muslims ever thought of putting in.
Fact this is all BS by the wingnut right to pit american against american to avoid the issues of the economy and jobs.

[SassyLeo]

This is a -gentle- reminder that this thread is NOT in the RED ZONE.

This is definitely a hard subject to discuss and we all have very personal feelings about it... So please keep your responses respectful.

Thanks
SassyLeo

[PapaC]

"To continue the efforts to battle Sharia Law and the attempts of radical Muslims to use it to destroy our values and the gains of feminism....."

riiiiiiiiiiight, THIS nut is now suddenly a mouthpiece for feminism?? I'm so sure about that.

thanks for the link to this article. I feel... even dirtier now.

[betenoire]

"To continue the efforts to battle Sharia Law and the attempts of radical Muslims to use it to destroy our values and the gains of feminism....."

riiiiiiiiiiight, THIS nut is now suddenly a mouthpiece for feminism?? I'm so sure about that.

thanks for the link to this article. I feel... even dirtier now.

Seriously. It's pretty manipulative to try and couch this in "It's about the women!". I'm appalled.

[paposeco]

I find it interesting that you assume I am overtly triggered by certain words yet you seem triggered by your own words thinking it was I that was using them when they were quoted from your own posts.

"Do you feel you are living and acting as a Christian? Or a "fear and hate" monger yourself in this post?

"be open minded..there are other points of view just as valid as yours, perhaps (if you humble yourself) more so." I look forward to your open mindedness when I post."

The above is your own thoughts I quoted in my last post.

And no, I do not think IMO that a Proposed Mosque Near Ground Zero is appropriate. And I try not to be a hypocrite and live my life like a Christian.

Thanks for quoting me correctly.
Those comments, were not directed specifically at you. You seem to have taken it personally. And yes, to me, it does seem that you were a wee bit triggerd by my words, even though they were NOT directed at you. I was speaking in general terms, mostly, but in specific, about the nuts and wackos of this world that use any excuse in the name of God/religion to divide people. Then have the audacity to use 9/11 to further their twisted agenda. Frankly I do not know why you singled me out, as there are other opinions on this post that have more "offensive" language (according to you) than mine. Remember fa...it was not an attack on you, k?
(I thinks it's rather ironic, that generally speaking this post is about Intolerance...lol) ah..never mind. btw..it's not a Mosque, and so what if it was? never mind this one either. I will not respond to any future responses, that you direct to me. I have not the energy nor the time to try to make myself any more clearer. Peace, really. It was only my point of view, nothing more and nothing less. God bless.

[PapaC]

And you know, while we're at it, if you actually look at Ground Zero on a map (which I've had to do since I've never been to New York)... I'm lookin' there and ... oh RIGHT BESIDE WTC, is... St. Peter's Roman Catholic Church, St. Paul's Churchyard... even John Street United Methodist Church appears to be closer to Ground Zero.


Since this is a contest...It's 3 against 1. Christians win.

We could use curling rules? (closest rock to the centre wins?)

just a thought.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Muslim Americans Find Their Voice Amid The Shouts



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129668035

[Julie]

Muslim Americans Find Their Voice Amid The Shouts


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129668035



Brilliant ~ This was a beautiful and well done video.

My Faith - My Voice was created by independent American Muslims, with the hopes that perhaps giving people the opportunity to visually see them, and hear them, that perhaps this might stop the madness. We need to be so aware right now, that anti-muslim causes are springing up faster than imagined, and not by the expected white supremacist groups, but by mainstream americans (lol that makes me laugh btw), who otherwise would not be associated with such outward hateful propaganda.

Even my mother, who was a civil-rights activist in the 60's and a hippie, is sending me the propaganda - scary shit when it's hitting our own homes.

Fear is DANGEROUS!

http://www.myfaithmyvoice.com

[Jude]

Re: SHARIA LAW. Suspect not too many here know what it is. In fact, real sharia law is closer to democracy and socialism than the democracy practiced in the USA and western European countries. Under sharia law, the entire society is protected (including non muslims). Everybody is "taxed" in a sense. Muslims pay a zakat (proportion of their incomes) that is significantly higher than what is required of non muslims living in an Islamic country (if they can afford it). They are paying for the protection of the Islamic military and basic community services, just as a resident alien living in the USA is paying taxes.
A woman's 'vote' was worth half that of a man (likewise a female witness to a crime) because it was presumed that the women were in the home giving birth and caring for children rather than dabbling in the affairs of the society.
Now, if you want to find something truly terrifying, read up on Talmudic Law....it's okay to have sexual intercourse with a gentile girl over 3 years and one day.....the life of a non Jew is worthless compared to that of a Jew. Talmudic and rabbinical law are the foundation of both modern Judaism and Christianity.
Rational people of any faith tent to take a critical look at the laws of their faith and practice what is feasible.
Again, I suggest that we recollect the Inquisition and the Crusades, and perhaps the Salem Witch burnings as a toss in, when we are claiming the Islam is a religion of atrocity.
Most Islamic conquest historically was by voluntary conversion. The Mongols mangled the Muslims and ultimately converted to Islam of their own accord. Christianity has spread by the sword.
Perahps a nice LGBT community center in the vicinity of Ground Zero would be appropriate at this point.

[Jude]

Feminine Alllure:
Could you please provide evidence for your statement that Islamic Centers (mosues or community centers or whatever you'd like to call them) don't honor sharia law? Sharia law is the basis of Islam. I'd really like to hear your sources.

That's akin to suggesting that Judaism generally tosses out all vestiges of Abrahamic law (talmudic law or rabbinical law) and only a few fanatical Jews attempt to abide by the law.

What's your source, please?

[SuperFemme]

Feminine Alllure:
Could you please provide evidence for your statement that Islamic Centers (mosues or community centers or whatever you'd like to call them) don't honor sharia law? Sharia law is the basis of Islam. I'd really like to hear your sources.

That's akin to suggesting that Judaism generally tosses out all vestiges of Abrahamic law (talmudic law or rabbinical law) and only a few fanatical Jews attempt to abide by the law.

What's your source, please?

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/ground-zero-mosque-the-real-issue/

paragraph four

[Toughy]

mmmmm us vs them

This entire conversation is about us vs them. Let's re-frame the conversation. ..sometimes I like irony.......

My sisters and brothers of an Abrahamic sect (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) want to build the Cordoba House, a community center. It will serve all the people of the neighborhood, within an Islamic tradition. It is a couple of blocks from the WTC where Wahhabist terrorists, who were Saudi nationals, flew planes in to buildings. The Cordoba House has nothing to do with 9/11. It is about building an inclusive community in that neighborhood.

Notice I did not say those Islamics want to build a mosque at ground zero. That would be divisive. Notice I talked about community and taking care of each other in that little neighborhood. That is inclusive and changes the dialogue.

[Rook]

Do you even know what Shari'ah is for you to Slander it as Radical and Terror-inducing?
I would Love...I mean this seriously, I would love Love LOVE to see a "non-sharia" Mosque/Islamic Community Center....

Why?

So I can sit on a bench and eat my popcorn while{both Shi'a and Sunni} Scholars tear the places rep. to shred VERBALLY.
You cannot have Islam w/o Sharia...

Again, why?

Easy...

Sharia is G-ds Law.

Mind you, there are, as in most Religions, various Degrees of Interpretation, and Schools of Thought on such Interpretations.
Some countries piously follow One interpretation, Some cultures even within those countries follow a different interpretation, but they ALL agree that in the end, the bottom Line, the Holy Quran is the the Absolute Sharia.
Followed Closely by the Sunnah {The practices of the Prophet himself & those before him}, & Fiqh {it compliments Both the Qu'ran and Sunnah, aiding further the Rulings on ritual, morals, social legislation} In Sunni there are 4 Madhabs with their own varying degrees of adherence to certain Rulings, within Shi'a there are 2...
That there are insane Fanatic Radicals and/or Fundamentalists that enjoy Twisting things to their sick benefit, ok..Those are the exception..Those are the ones the Rest of the Islamic world Shun..
That's where the saying "a few bad apples" fits very well...

I'll explain this easier before I get too Preachy....
To say a Mosque / Islamic Center /Community Center etc.. is w/o Sharia, is to say a Synagogue is without Talmud/Torah.
That a Catholic Church is w/o their 10 Commandments or their Apostles' Creed..

That there are Laws that seem borderline Archaic to Western Societies delicate nature?
Yup..
But, do u Really wanna go there?
I mean, with all the selling daughters into sexual slavery {Exodus 21:7-11}, literally Death to Adulterers {Deuteronomy 22:21, John 8:4,5., Ephesians 5:5 }

And please don't give me that "Old Testament doesn't apply" Bunk...
If it didn't, the Bible wouldn't have it.
Yes, Jesus did say "He who is w/o sin cast the first Stone" and they didn't...But..
If memory serves, a lil bit later, they did.
I have a lot of respect for it, I'm not attacking the Bible, I will say however, that the "allowed" Books in the bible have their own Faults, and there are Christian Fundamentalists/Radicals.
U are no better or Worse

btw, I loved "My Faith - My Voice"

[Jude]

"Do you even know what Shari'ah is for you to Slander it as Radical and Terror-inducing?
I would Love...I mean this seriously, I would love Love LOVE to see a "non-sharia" Mosque/Islamic Community Center...."

Rook got it down 100%.

[Jude]

http://www.dickmorris.com/blog/ground-zero-mosque-the-real-issue/

paragraph four

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.


Um Jude that is the thread FeminineAllure Posted

She may have been attempting to answer for FA I am unsure.

[Corkey]

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

We all know what a hate site that is, that's the point. It isn't our buddies, you are new here and don't know any of us, so please take the time to reread the thread. Thanks everso.

[SuperFemme]

Is that meant to be a joke? That's a source? Do you know what a hate site is? Why don't you inquire of your buddies over there how they feel about homosexuals and trans people looooooooooooooool.

Suggestion: Because something is printed on the web...ummmmm.... that don't make it so.

Take care. I"m outta this thread. This has become too silly.

I was pointing out FeminineAllures source, since you asked. I only knew because I had read the original link she put up and was aghast.

Please though, don't speak to other members like that, ok? You can be aghast too without being disrespectful.

If you'd like to come back and have a grown up conversation, please do, but this thread is not silly, nor is the subject matter a joke.

If you read my posts on the matter then you'll see clearly where I stand.

[Jude]

Superfemme, My apologies to you directly. I used the wrong name in my response. It was not intended for you.

I do, however, stand firmly in suggesting that the source was a pure, vile, hate site. What The entire mosque controversty (not just here, but in the news), in my personal opinion, is absurd, dangerous, pure hatred.

I've opted out of the thread after reading that link. Better things to do with my time. I do, however, apologize to you for responding to the incorrect name.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Toughy;186210]FA......

It is NOT a Mosque. It is a Community Center that also has a prayer room. It's called the Cordoba House.

[QUOTE]

I KNOW! It is making me crazy that it keeps being called a mosque! Isn't it interesting, that each and every Muslim spokesperson on the media coverage going on, refers to it as a community center with a prayer room. But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.

I had friends in the towers that day, some of which did not make it out as well as co-workers and friends of all of them. I have family and friends in NYC, NJ CT and in PA (all of which i do not get to see often, dammit) that live and work around this area. My 2 remaining friends connected with this group of people in my life that got out do NOT have a problem with this community center being built there at all. Nor do members of my family living there. All of them think it is time heal and that a community center with a Muslim connection may very well help do this. They also feel that the media is heating this up a lot, mainly by continuing to refer to as a mosque and not correcting stories being circulated.

I have no idea how all of the family and friends of those killed that day feel about this or the rest of the City of New York. I don't trust what has been covered about this at this point at all.

What I feel deeply is that if this center's construction is stopped, it will set precident for any Muslim building being proposed all over the US, including mosques and that is just wrong! True Muslims were not responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

[weatherboi]

hey ALH-

i highlighted the part of your post i am speaking to.
here is an interview with a woman whose pregnant daughter was killed in 9/11 that i posted earlier on in the thread.

kscMwrTRwmk




I KNOW! It is making me crazy that it keeps being called a mosque! Isn't it interesting, that each and every Muslim spokesperson on the media coverage going on, refers to it as a community center with a prayer room. But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.

I had friends in the towers that day, some of which did not make it out as well as co-workers and friends of all of them. I have family and friends in NYC, NJ CT and in PA (all of which i do not get to see often, dammit) that live and work around this area. My 2 remaining friends connected with this group of people in my life that got out do NOT have a problem with this community center being built there at all. Nor do members of my family living there. All of them think it is time heal and that a community center with a Muslim connection may very well help do this. They also feel that the media is heating this up a lot, mainly by continuing to refer to as a mosque and not correcting stories being circulated.

I have no idea how all of the family and friends of those killed that day feel about this or the rest of the City of New York. I don't trust what has been covered about this at this point at all.

What I feel deeply is that if this center's construction is stopped, it will set precident for any Muslim building being proposed all over the US, including mosques and that is just wrong! True Muslims were not responsible for the 9/11 attacks.

[MsMerrick]

Here is why, I keep having nightmares. The echos, of Hitler's historical rise to power, are ringing in my ears.
1) Pick someone , a religion for instance , slightly different from the mainstream , blame them for everything
2) Spread false rumors, that they eat children, abuse them, whatever, there's plenty of hot buttons out there..
3) Paint yourself as the only moral person, sworn to stop those horrible people
4) Start small, be sympathetic but, firm that although you have no real problem, for their own safety perhaps, they should wear stars .. so others can know, and truly it is for your own good

Oh yeah, make sure you don't allow anyone to practice the religion, but again, with a lot of sympathy just cite a lot of crap and incite people further
Seriously, this gives me nightmares...
That intelligent people can quote or cite, such incredibly hate mongering people, with false rumors, and call that "presenting the other side" ..scares the crap out of me...
This is how it starts..

[Outlaw]

Thanks for quoting me correctly.
Those comments, were not directed specifically at you. You seem to have taken it personally. And yes, to me, it does seem that you were a wee bit triggerd by my words, even though they were NOT directed at you. I was speaking in general terms, mostly, but in specific, about the nuts and wackos of this world that use any excuse in the name of God/religion to divide people. Then have the audacity to use 9/11 to further their twisted agenda. Frankly I do not know why you singled me out, as there are other opinions on this post that have more "offensive" language (according to you) than mine. Remember fa...it was not an attack on you, k?
(I thinks it's rather ironic, that generally speaking this post is about Intolerance...lol) ah..never mind. btw..it's not a Mosque, and so what if it was? never mind this one either. I will not respond to any future responses, that you direct to me. I have not the energy nor the time to try to make myself any more clearer. Peace, really. It was only my point of view, nothing more and nothing less. God bless.


If someone finds your language offensive, why not find other language to express your opinion?

Why might someone might find language (like nuts and wacko) offensive?

If one member finds it offensive, then might other members find it offensive too?

If we're having a discussion about justice and tolerance shouldn't our collective language be a reflection of that?

[EnderD_503]

But, non-Muslims keep calling it a mosque. I actually think the media has fed this whole thing.


That much should be obvious by now, methinks. If it weren't for the repercussions of the media and American public's ignorance and fear of Islam, this situation would actually be insanely hilarious if only because of people's blatant stupidity.

Muslims: "We're going to build a community centre."
American media/public "Aaaaahhhh Mosque! Terror cell! Aaaaahhh!"
Muslims: "But...it's a community centre..."
American media/public: "How COULD you build a Mosque so close to the 911 site!?"
Muslims: "Umm....community centre?"
American media/public: "The horror of it! How could they build a Mosque! Oh god, the inhumanity!"
Muslims: "But there is already a Mosque some blocks away that has been here since before 911...and we aren't building a Mosque. It's a community centre..."
American media/public: "OH MY GOD A MOSQUE!!!! Terrorists are funding it! How can we let terrorists build a terror mosque so close to the 911 site!"
Muslims:*sigh*

A friend of mine showed me this amusing Daily Show clip. The stupidity of American news networks continues to astound me...

http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Displayblog.aspx?bpid=16d46416-8330-4ae0-b5b9-39b86da82f80

[SuperFemme]

Superfemme, My apologies to you directly. I used the wrong name in my response. It was not intended for you.

I do, however, stand firmly in suggesting that the source was a pure, vile, hate site. What The entire mosque controversty (not just here, but in the news), in my personal opinion, is absurd, dangerous, pure hatred.

I've opted out of the thread after reading that link. Better things to do with my time. I do, however, apologize to you for responding to the incorrect name.


I accept your apology, however: why leave the thread?
You've had great stuff to offer and we all know what that link was.
We're a smart bunch.

Your power lies in the fact that your voice lends to teaching others the difference between fact and dangerous fear mongering hatred.

[Jude]

You said:
"I accept your apology, however: why leave the thread?
You've had great stuff to offer and we all know what that link was.
We're a smart bunch.

Your power lies in the fact that your voice lends to teaching others the difference between fact and dangerous fear mongering hatred."

.................................................. .................................................. ............

Thank you for your kind words. The two things I can't deal with graciously are racism and false elitism under any guise.

Noticed in this thread, and another, people seeking out "popularity". Thought that was something we get over when we're all grown up.

I'm a Jew who works for Palestinian children's relief and medical assistance. Trust me. in the Jewish community, that's not a very popular stance to take, although, thankfully, more and more Jews of conscience are standing with the people of Palestine every day.

All to say, I didn't come to this forum to make as many friends as possible. A couple or few authentic ones would be a delight.

Think that at this point we've established that there is really no difference between a "mosque" and an "Islamic Commnuity Center" any more than there is a difference between a temple and a Jewish Community Center. Both are ostensibly religious institutions that serve their own people as a spiritual, cultural and social center.
I'm not sure there's much else to say on the matter. There are magnificent, altruistic Muslims and there are crummy Muslims. Likewise, there are superb Jews with a heart and there are dreadful Jews. Certainly, things have been perpetrated in the name of Jesus Christ that are among the great historical atrocities of mankind. What some of us do in the name of our various faiths often bears little resemblance to what the founders of these beliefs preached and practiced.

Whenever we come upon hatred, my own belief is that it is our personal responsiblity to speak out and take appropriate action if we possibly can. Graciousness, in the face of ethnic viciousness is not, in my opinion, a personal attribute I feel the need to cultivate at this point in my life.
_

[SuperFemme]

Jude, thanks for sharing your stance, history and what you do.

As a Latina, I find the targeting of brown people abhorrent and have been shocked by the Islamophobia rearing it's ugly head around this country.

What is Islamophobia if not racism, right?

As for graciousness? I get your point. Trust me on that. It gets so tiresome turning around and seeing racist things coming from people in this community. Or any community.

[Jude]

You said: "It gets so tiresome turning around and seeing racist things coming from people in this community...."

Agree 100%. If we don't stand up for the civil rights of another disenfranchised people, how can we expect anyone to stand with us?

I think there is a point in life when we come to realize that some people are going to like us and some people are not. It's not even a question of "well, that's their problem". It's nobody's problem. It's simply not a problem at all. That's just how it is and so what?

[o222Good]

Let me preface this post with this statement:
It's what our country was founded on: Freedom of religion (or no religion!)

This link is a long read, but I think everyone should be educated about the topic
Park51 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Park51)
It's interesting that Con Edison actually owns half the building.
It's also interesting, and confusing, as to why part of the project is called a Prayer Room (seating up to 2000) instead of a mosque. The wife of the Imam said, "You can't stop anyone who is a Muslim despite his religious ideology from entering the mosque and staying there. With a prayer space, we can control who gets to use it." (from the above link)

This link discusses the apparent practice of mosque building as a display of victory and territorial advance.
Symbol of Conquest (http://www.hudson-ny.org/1496/mosques-on-sacred-sites-of-defeated-enemies)
If this were true, it would kind of make sense. The World Trade Center was a symbol of western capitalism and power.

I was in Manhattan that day, as a number of other members of this site also were. It was a terrifying day that I will never forget for the rest my life.

Really, I personally (just me!) think that just about all religions suck. If you are not a member, well you are just not quite good enough - at best! At worst, you are less than human.

When I first heard about this, what came to mind were the Carmelite nuns who wanted to build a convent right next to the Auschwitz death camp. It was to be built as a place for reconciliation and prayer. Sound familiar? Of course, they had to plant a huge cross there, too. Frankly, the insensitivity of that, and this, is gross to me.

Let them build it in New Jersey! (local joke, really!)

[Diva]

Freedom must begin somewhere.

[Corkey]

If this community center is not built I fear the terrorist will have won. Because there is nothing worse to me than to loose the 1st amendment rights guaranteed in our Constitution. It doesn't matter that I am not a "believer" in any institutional religion, the very act of stopping this building being rebuilt will effect all religious freedoms, not just Islam. Hypocrisy runs deep and the only way the terrorists win is if we give in to fear. You can't have it both ways, "We get to have our" christian houses there, but no one else can. That is the hypocrisy of the religious right wing that takes our rights and spits on them. Build it, and then we all win.

[AtLast]

hey ALH-

i highlighted the part of your post i am speaking to.
here is an interview with a woman whose pregnant daughter was killed in 9/11 that i posted earlier on in the thread.

kscMwrTRwmk

Thanks so much for re-posting this. I watch "Keith" often, but missed this one. Thinking that my friend, a survivor might be involved with this group. Would make sense.

I know this is a tough one for so many and I was home only a couple of days from a trip back to NYC when it hit. Just was with these friends and some family, danced at one of the music production at the Towers during lunch hour that used to go there. Frankly, I loved going to those buildings. But, we can't allow the hate-filled bigotry based upon so much misinformation take away some of the things I have hope will be restored to the US, namely our rich immigrant history and the contributions so many have brought here.

[MsMerrick]

Kooch, not really clear what you are saying. While your first link, the wikipedia one, seems not too unbalanced, your second link is clearly inflammatory and not based on facts. Since it starts off by claiming that a Mosque is being built on the ground where the Twin Towers were, right away, I see lies and falsehoods, and slanderous utterances.
You also quote a bit from the Imam's wife, but not the whole sentence, which makes more sense than your snippet.
Full quote :
While the media widely described the center as a mosque, and the protests were against the mosque, the Initiative's official blog portrayed it as a community center with prayer space, making comparisons to the YMCA or Jewish Community Center.[85] The Initiative said that some services planned for the Cordoba House, such as the restaurant and performance center, disqualify it from being a mosque.[86] Daisy Khan, Imam Rauf’s wife and partner, in August 2010 also said:

We insist on calling it a prayer space and not a mosque, because you can use a prayer space for activities apart from prayer. You can't stop anyone who is a Muslim despite his religious ideology from entering the mosque and staying there. With a prayer space, we can control who gets to use it.[51]

The official website for the facility says it will include "a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community".[87]

Besides the Muslim prayer space, the Initiative's plan includes a 500-seat auditorium, theater, performing arts center, fitness center, swimming pool, basketball court, childcare services, art exhibitions, bookstore, culinary school, and a food court serving halal dishes.[37][21][66][74][88][7]

I am not sure what that quote meant to you, but want it meant to me, was that they don't want fanatical hatred filled fanatics, using the space.
As a native New Yorker, born in New York City, and also quite present that day, I am fully for, not letting the Terrorists win, and that means, supporting the Constitution, and refusing to discriminate against any religion. Either we are better then them or we are not.
There's no religion in my book that is better than any other, and I gather in yours. ( Which seems to mark a change for you ? ) but I do believe in the Constitution, and the rule of law, and that means a balanced across the board freedom, for religions.
At some point, I wondered a lot, how Hitler, came to power..and..what about the everyday people / Did they collectively rise up and decide to just over look evil ? Or did they decide to participate. How did that all happen ? Look into it sometime, because I tell you true, the way things are going, the rise of populist "leaders" like Palin and Beck, and this Islamaphobia, correlate way too closely .. Evil does exist, imho, but it exists wherever ignorance and sloppy thinking trump reason, not some shadowy figure.

[SuperFemme]

I'm going to post this list again, because it irks me to hear people cite how traumatized they are by 9/11 and use that as a reason to tell "them" to go build it somewhere else.

So apparently, although many Muslim people died that day, their grief is not as important as that of a non-Muslim person. Muslim grief is something that should be swept under the carpet, the only deaths being mourned are those of the men who took over the planes. Because we lost the chance to kill them ourselves.

Muslim people who died that day:

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=2226) (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi%2D0109280213sep28.story) (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.icna.org/) website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la%2Dhumantoll%2Dbolourchi.story) (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=1260) (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://usinfo.state.gov/albums/911/ham1.htm) (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.lankagems.com/inlovmemofra.html) (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (http://islam.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://cf1.newsday.infi.net/911/victimsearchframe.cfm%3Fid=953) (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

I hurt in my heart when I think about the families of these people watching this bullshit circus in the media. To me it is akin to spitting on a grave.

Fear is indeed, the great mind killer, because when I see incredibly intelligent people latch onto that fear and participate in Islamophobia I die a little inside.

I have to wonder if anyone noticed the parallels between Islamophobia and the wave of hatred/racism against MY people: Hispanics? It seems being brown is now a viable reason to put a target on ones back in this country and expect those same brown people to be fucking grateful for the small amount of civil liberties they may still receive. So gross, and so scary and when I read Merrick speaking of the Holocaust in comparison to what is happening here in this country right now I know she is right.

[dreadgeek]

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

Wait, I'm not sure I understand this. So you are saying that even though you do not endorse or agree with what Mssrs Morris or Gaffney are saying, and even though you do not put a disclaimer along the lines of "the views I quote do not represent my views..." you quoted the aforementioned gentlemen and expect us NOT to conclude--quite reasonably--that you are posting their views because you agree with them. Really? See, if I'm going to post something quoting from someone that I disagree with but that view is representative of a position I disagree with, I will take the time to make certain that the reader *knows* that I'm quoting someone I disagree with. If I don't, then I work under the idea that the reader will conclude (correctly) that if I'm quoting someone then I'm doing so because I *agree* with them. I find your disclaimers somewhat disingenuous, FA.

So your argument appears to be that you want a place where "all people can come together", well why not, say, the site of the strip club? Is that also not a place that all people could come together in? And does NYC *really* need another strip club? Which will be a place more welcoming to the largest number of people, a strip club or the Cordoba house?

Also, if I pulled a made-up statistic like, say, "20% of all Christian churches are not Reconstructionist or Dominionist or otherwise theocratic and simply want to worship in peace..." would you believe that statistic? Look, I'm going to preempt the "I have a right to my opinion" spiel and state that your right to your opinion and your right to express it are not at issue here. However, your right to *express* an opinion does not insulate that opinion from being challenged nor does it render you immune to having said expression eviscerated if it is not based upon solid, reliable evidence (yes, such an animal exists).

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

If this community center is not built I fear the terrorist will have won. Because there is nothing worse to me than to loose the 1st amendment rights guaranteed in our Constitution. It doesn't matter that I am not a "believer" in any institutional religion, the very act of stopping this building being rebuilt will effect all religious freedoms, not just Islam. Hypocrisy runs deep and the only way the terrorists win is if we give in to fear. You can't have it both ways, "We get to have our" christian houses there, but no one else can. That is the hypocrisy of the religious right wing that takes our rights and spits on them. Build it, and then we all win.

Corkey:

If *I* were, say, a high up in Hamas, Hezbollah or Al Qaeda I would be sending money--as much as I could--to the cause of *preventing* this community center from being built. I would task someone with showing up at every single protest against it--no matter where it happens. I would task someone else with simply hanging out at RedState, Drudge, FOXNews.com and every other right-wing website and copy and paste editorials and comments to same about this community center. And then, when the side that is convinced that this community center might as well be Al Qaeda Central, I would take all that video, all those interviews and every single word written in opposition to the Cordoba House and make movie after movie, pamphlet after pamphlet, showing how Americans behave. Each one would start and end the same. The beginning would be quoting the First Amendment and then the words "And here is American religious freedom in action..." followed by the quotes and images and voices of opposition. The end would simply read: Any Questions?

We are *writing* the Hamas propaganda FOR THEM! And the thing that would be funny if it weren't so damn tragic, is that the people carrying the propaganda water for Al Qaeda et. al. are the MOST religious and MOST conservative people in America! If Usama Bin Laden is alive he is laughing hysterically as he watches this play out.

Here is why, I keep having nightmares. The echos, of Hitler's historical rise to power, are ringing in my ears.
1) Pick someone , a religion for instance , slightly different from the mainstream , blame them for everything
2) Spread false rumors, that they eat children, abuse them, whatever, there's plenty of hot buttons out there..
3) Paint yourself as the only moral person, sworn to stop those horrible people
4) Start small, be sympathetic but, firm that although you have no real problem, for their own safety perhaps, they should wear stars .. so others can know, and truly it is for your own good

Oh yeah, make sure you don't allow anyone to practice the religion, but again, with a lot of sympathy just cite a lot of crap and incite people further
Seriously, this gives me nightmares...
That intelligent people can quote or cite, such incredibly hate mongering people, with false rumors, and call that "presenting the other side" ..scares the crap out of me...
This is how it starts..

Merrick:

As I said last week, I'm working my way through William Shrier's tome "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" and you are, of course, spot on. This pattern is well known and the path well worn. Now, are we in Germany in 1933? No, not yet. We are, however, in Germany circa 1931. We have (and it PAINS me no end to say this) a weak liberal government that is not willing to stand up for itself (the Obama administration and Congressional Democrats), we have a proto-fascist movement that is gaining strength and being allowed to believe that statements like "2nd amendment remedies" in response to elections that their side loses is appropriate (it's not) and we have conservative politicians who do not necessarily buy into the proto-fascism but are willing to use the proto-fascists toward electoral ends, believing that this will work out in their favor this time. It won't. The people who brought Hitler to power, ultimately, were the conservative forces in Germany--not the National Socialists, but the German Army and the German industrialists who thought that the Nazi's could be controlled. The army wanted arms and the Nazis were promising to rearm Germany in defiance of Versailles. The industrialists wanted someone to put a stop to the socialists, the communists and the trade unionists and didn't much care who did the stopping just so long as they were stopped.

I wonder if, 50 years from now, another historian will be writing a book "The Rise and Fall of the American Empire" and stating repeatedly, as Shrier did in his work, that the leaders of the American Theocracy TOLD the world and their countrymen what they were up to. Ann Coulter, Dick Morris, Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson, Sarah Palin and their fellow travelers have ALL stated, without pulling punches or reserve, what their agenda is and what they would do. We pretend that they don't mean it at our peril.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I am shocked when I hear things like.... Not in our city.

A lot of Muslims reside there too. Should they too get out of your city? (general you)

AJ said it best in another thread.

To be Brown, or Muslim is a scary fucking time in America, either we are terrorists, taking jobs, building facilities that are training monsters, decapitating folks in the desert.


It's coming, soon you will want us to wear some symbol, you'll want us in lil camps cause you want to make sure who we are....



This Saturday more of that fear is gonna be spread..


On September 11th, 2010, from 6pm - 9pm, we will burn the Koran on the property of Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, FL in remembrance of the fallen victims of 9/11 and to stand against the evil of Islam. Islam is of the devil


In the name of god it's being done, in the name of all that is good, so yeah if you can't see how all the above I mentioned isn't coming I don't know. I fear for our youth the messages they are getting and how dismissed and belittled they feel when something that is holy to them is being burnt and disrespected cause well...

They are comin' to get cha.

Racism in America is at its dangerous....

[SuperFemme]

We really ARE playing into the hands of Al Queda. Already, US Servicemen are being attacked as Afghan people protest the burning o the Koran by burning American Flags and what not. This idiot pastor is putting the lives of our young ones in the military in grave danger, and does NOT care.

GAINESVILLE, Fla. --

The pastor at Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville has vowed to burn Korans next weekend on the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- a plan that has sparked a fiery and emotional protest in Afghanistan.

Pastor Terry Jones called the book burning a warning. He said he plans to send a message to Muslim extremists by burning copies of the Koran on his church's lawn.

"We believe people are afraid of radical Islam. We hope it brings awareness," Jones said.

The pastor's plans to torch the holy books ignited outrage in Kabul. Hundreds of Afghans shouted anti-American slogans.

The protesters burned American flags, along with a replica of the pastor.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39034907

[dreadgeek]

Well, it seems that there ARE cool heads making news about this;


Item 1:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/new.york.islamic.center.islamophobia/index.html?hpt=T2

Numerous faith leaders in recent weeks have expressed concerns about hate crimes against American Muslims in the runup to this weekend's anniversary of the September 11, 2001, terror attacks, which coincides with the holiday of Eid-al-Fitr marking the conclusion of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan.

Attorney General Eric Holder is slated to discuss the concern at a Tuesday afternoon meeting with religious leaders at the Justice Department. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton may weigh in on the debate as well when she joins a Ramadan celebration at the State Department Tuesday night. Clinton is expected to deliver remarks around 8 p.m. ET.

Item 2:

General Petraeus is also warning that this idea of burning the koran is going to cause problems for troops still in the Afghan theater of operations

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11209738


Cheers
Aj

[chefhmboyrd]

this is ridiculous. if they were burning bibles in Afganistan, they would want to nuke them
ignorance......

it wouldn't matter if the aformentioned Mosque was built 1 block or ten blocks away from "Ground Zero", someone would have a big opinion on how it was "disrespectful"

the terrorist acts made on America were not made by the entire Muslim world, but if these ignorant assholes keep burning the Koran, and saying inflammatory things about other people's religion, we will just make more enemies.
i am neither Jew, Christian, nor Muslim...... and if you read what i have been reading in the news and on the internet, you would understand why
all i see from any of the "organized" religions is hate and war and intolerance.......

[SuperFemme]

i wonder if i travel to Iraq if the civilian population there would be justified in killing me? after all, the death toll of Iraqi citizens is around 106,000. these deaths were mostly at the hands of Americans.

so i just have to wonder about the crazed sense of entitlement our country has?

around 8,000 total from 9/11 and war in Iraq is our body count so far i think.

8k to 106k. who should be burning what?

[dreadgeek]

I am shocked when I hear things like.... Not in our city.

A lot of Muslims reside there too. Should they too get out of your city? (general you)

AJ said it best in another thread.

To be Brown, or Muslim is a scary fucking time in America, either we are terrorists, taking jobs, building facilities that are training monsters, decapitating folks in the desert.


As the calendar inexorably marches toward what would be my mothers 88th birthday and having just left behind in mid-August what would have been my father's 88th, I find myself grateful that they did not live see America take this turn. About 65 years ago, my father--along with a whole lot of other Americans--began to demobilize as WW II closed. My father, as part of the 761st Tank Battalion, earned a Purple Heart and Bronze star for his actions in that war. My parents, my father particularly since he SAW the camps, drilled into us that we had an obligation to make good a promise of 'Never Again', a promise that to our (all of humanity) eternal shame we have not made good on. They also drilled into us that at the time that Hitler came to power, Germany was the most educated, liberal and culturally advanced nation in Europe if not the world. They made us aware that if it could happen in Germany it could just as easily happen here. Seeing their country do this--and keep in mind that these are people who lived through Jim Crow, both my parents had siblings who were the victims of physical violence that cost one uncle his life and another uncle the ability to walk right--would break their hearts.

As my parent's generation exits the stage I am seeing one of my great cultural fears come to pass; namely that we would soon forget once the last generation of Americans who had stared evil--real, true, visceral, unmitigated evil--right in the face were gone. And here we are. My father, if he were alive, would be on his way to D.C. for the 2 October rally and would tell everyone who would listen that "we've heard this song before" just because now the words are in English and not German and just because the targets are Muslims and not Jews, doesn't mean that this isn't the same old ugly song. I understand that a lot of people on the other side are people of good will. I also understand that they *really and genuinely* believe that 8 of 10 mosques are *actually* terrorist training facilities carefully disguised as places of monotheistic worship.

Here's the thing--and to anyone on the other side, I want you to really read what I'm saying here and then sit with these questions--does anyone really believe that the Germans didn't think that the Jews were *really and genuinely* a threat to all things German? Does anyone here believe that the Germans didn't *actually* think that Jews were trying to bring down Germany or that Jews controlled 'all the banks' or that Jews didn't have all kinds of bizarre rituals wherein they killed Christian babies? Is there a single person reading these words that has ANY doubt that every German who turned in a Jewish neighbor, every German who was in the SS or the SA, every German who saw the persecution of the Jews, didn't think that THEY were on the side of right and good? That THEY didn't really hate or fear the Jews per se, they just needed to make certain that they weren't a threat? It's comforting but wholly wrong to believe that the evil done by people is done with the perpetrators knowing that they are doing evil. That is so incorrect that it is not even wrong.

Rather, the Germans thought that THEY were on the side of good in slaughtering the Jews and the gypsies and the homosexuals and the communists and the socialists and the trade unionists. White segregationists didn't think they were evil or propping up an evil system, rather they believed that THEY were on the side of right and good. The Soviets under Stalin did not think that their system was dehumanizing and cruel, they were doing what needed to be done to promote the interests of the proletariat. The Khmer Rouge thought that it was necessary to kill the writers, teachers, lawyers, artists, musicians and others who did not have sufficient revolutionary fever or the children of same because they carried the bourgeois taint of their parents. The Chinese under Mao, the Serbs under Milosevic or the Rawandans all believed the same thing as they committed stomach-turning atrocities. They were on the side of good, the other guys were on the side of evil and the elimination--as regrettable as it might be--just had to happen in order to protect all that was good and noble.

In the name of good, righteousness, nobility and, ironically, freedom we are poised to do the same thing to at least two other groups in this country--Muslims and Hispanics. If you aren't a Muslim or a Hispanic, you might feel safe but don't put your money on that bet. You aren't. If you are reading this then you're queer and make NO mistake that they will come for us. Now, they might get around to us AFTER they are done with the Muslims and the Hispanics but that's actually counter to the historical pattern. The pattern in Germany was that, actually, homosexuals were really part of the test run, to see what they could get away with.

If you are queer, your white skin will not protect you. If you are queer, your Christian religion will not protect you. You'll be gotten around to eventually because movements that seek to cleanse or purge the Other are never satisfied with one group, there's always one OTHER group preventing the nation from achieving its true historical zenith that is its due and when that group is removed THEN all will be well. I know this sounds alarmist but that's only because we're on the 'before' side of whatever historical event we seem hell-bent on hurtling toward. Maybe I'm wrong. I want to be. I hope I am. So far, though, everyday we seem to be taking more and more steps toward an abyss.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

I was simply offering anothers opinion and point of view. I am not scared of Muslims. And thank you, as I see who I am dealing with as well.

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is given, FA. You say you see who you are dealing with but I wonder if you do. Most everyone here arguing the other side simply wants a cogent, coherent, *reason* to oppose this community center that doesn't rely on stereotypes, breathless accusations of Muslim triumphalism or other non-evidence based arguments. I know that's all I want.

Look, I get it that you oppose this community center being built. I also understand that it can be lonely arguing a contrary opinion on a message board. However, if you say you oppose this community center and your opposition is based upon the idea that this is inappropriate then the rest of us are perfectly within reason to ask why it is inappropriate. But, unless I missed a post of yours, I haven't really read an argument why this center shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't had one that met the Kantian imperative that one should never back a law, ethic or principle that one would not want to see applied universally without prejudice.

So let's say, for instance, that you were to wake up tomorrow morning and find that an a Christian church in, say, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) had been burnt to the ground. The BBC, doing 'man on the street', interviews in Jakarta shows person after person saying "we burned this church to the ground because of all the Muslims who have been killed by Christians". Would you shrug your shoulders and say "well, of course" or would you feel an injustice had been done? What if, the day after that, you saw a headline that Indonesia had passed a law saying you could not practice Christianity in that nation? Again, the BBC interviews the average Indonesian and again you hear that it is insensitive for Christians to be in a Muslim nation given all the demonstrable blood shed by Christians. Would you agree, at least in principle, with the passage of said law or would you, again, think an injustice had been done? The following day you wake up and you see an American soldier, his face is bruised and bloodied, his lips are swollen. The man in the face mask, standing just behind him with a pistol to his head, says that this soldier is the first but not the last who will pay with his blood for deaths of all the Muslims who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would you think that this was a reasonable act? On another day, there is footage of a mass Bible burning. Would you think that this was fine because the Bible is the book of Christians and the people setting the book to the torch are Muslims.

I doubt that any of those would sit well with you. So is this principle of "its insensitive" one that you would want applied universally without favor or prejudice?

Cheers
Aj

[Jude]

Standing ovation for Dreadgeek's post <clap, clap, clap, clap.......>

[dreadgeek]

Before I go to lunch, since this is on my mind, I wanted to post and I hope folks, particularly folks on the other side of this issue, will think about it:

If I stand up and shout loudly and long about how much I value and treasure MY right to free speech or MY right to practice the religion of my choice, I've told you nothing much about my commitment to those principles. Any fool, once she figures out she has a right to free speech and religion, is going to be all in favor of her rights. If, on the other hand, I stand up and shout loudly and long about my support of the right of expression of the person who espouses an idea that I not just disagree with but find odious and deeply offensive, NOW you've learned something useful about how much I mean it when I say I believe in free speech. Likewise, if I stand up and defend the right of someone to practice the religion that I not only don't practice, but wouldn't practice if you paid me, that I don't know much about and what I do know, I don't like THEN you can tell something about how deep my commitment is to freedom of conscience and religion.

The First Amendment is not, as many Americans suppose, there to protect Christianity in a nation that is majority Christian. If you are a Christian, your religious freedom is protected because your religion is in the majority. The First Amendment is there to protect the Jew, the Muslim, the Buddhist, the Hindu, the Atheist, the Pagan, the Sikh and others. Yes, it protects Christians as well but Christians don't *need* the protection--the minority religions do. In the same vein, the First Amendment doesn't protect the popular opinion. It isn't there to protect proclaiming that Jesus is Lord nor is it there to protect chanting USA! USA! USA! at the least provocation. Rather, it is there to protect the scholar who says that there's scant evidence that the historical Jesus actually existed and that the Gospel stories borrow liberally from other myths that were known in the Levant at the beginning of the Common Era. It is there to protect the person who says "well, America is good but then there's slavery or the decimation of the native populations or the unprovoked invasion of Iraq..." The popular position NEEDS no protection, it is the least popular opinion, the one that you wish the speaker would shut the hell up and never say another word, that needs protection.

That is how we know whether someone means it when they say that they believe in free speech and freedom of conscience.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

There's no religion in my book that is better than any other, and I gather in yours. ( Which seems to mark a change for you ? ) but I do believe in the Constitution, and the rule of law, and that means a balanced across the board freedom, for religions.
At some point, I wondered a lot, how Hitler, came to power..and..what about the everyday people / Did they collectively rise up and decide to just over look evil ? Or did they decide to participate. How did that all happen ? Look into it sometime, because I tell you true, the way things are going, the rise of populist "leaders" like Palin and Beck, and this Islamaphobia, correlate way too closely .. Evil does exist, imho, but it exists wherever ignorance and sloppy thinking trump reason, not some shadowy figure.

Outside of 'the banality of evil' the best sentiment I've ever read on the evil that ordinary people will do is this one from Terry Pratchett:

"And it all meant this: there are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that cannot be easily duplicated by a normal, kindly family man who just comes into work every day and has a job to do." (Small Gods)

[FeminineAllure]

I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it is given, FA. You say you see who you are dealing with but I wonder if you do. Most everyone here arguing the other side simply wants a cogent, coherent, *reason* to oppose this community center that doesn't rely on stereotypes, breathless accusations of Muslim triumphalism or other non-evidence based arguments. I know that's all I want.

Look, I get it that you oppose this community center being built. I also understand that it can be lonely arguing a contrary opinion on a message board. However, if you say you oppose this community center and your opposition is based upon the idea that this is inappropriate then the rest of us are perfectly within reason to ask why it is inappropriate. But, unless I missed a post of yours, I haven't really read an argument why this center shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't had one that met the Kantian imperative that one should never back a law, ethic or principle that one would not want to see applied universally without prejudice.

So let's say, for instance, that you were to wake up tomorrow morning and find that an a Christian church in, say, Indonesia (the largest Muslim country in the world) had been burnt to the ground. The BBC, doing 'man on the street', interviews in Jakarta shows person after person saying "we burned this church to the ground because of all the Muslims who have been killed by Christians". Would you shrug your shoulders and say "well, of course" or would you feel an injustice had been done? What if, the day after that, you saw a headline that Indonesia had passed a law saying you could not practice Christianity in that nation? Again, the BBC interviews the average Indonesian and again you hear that it is insensitive for Christians to be in a Muslim nation given all the demonstrable blood shed by Christians. Would you agree, at least in principle, with the passage of said law or would you, again, think an injustice had been done? The following day you wake up and you see an American soldier, his face is bruised and bloodied, his lips are swollen. The man in the face mask, standing just behind him with a pistol to his head, says that this soldier is the first but not the last who will pay with his blood for deaths of all the Muslims who died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Would you think that this was a reasonable act? On another day, there is footage of a mass Bible burning. Would you think that this was fine because the Bible is the book of Christians and the people setting the book to the torch are Muslims.

I doubt that any of those would sit well with you. So is this principle of "its insensitive" one that you would want applied universally without favor or prejudice?

Cheers
Aj

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

[The_Lady_Snow]

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.



Why is it not OK for this to be built?? What is *your* reasoning?

As for a place for all to come and pay their respects, I believe a few people have pointed out that a memorial is being built on ground zero..

This of course has not happened 9 years later, why is no one up in arms about this?


So I ask cause I am curious to know your opinion, why can't a Community Center/ Mosque be built where it is being built?

What is so wrong about that?

Oh, and I am not seeing where anyone called anyone names.....

[Corkey]

I do it all the time, and my wife loves me anyway.
Thanks for clarification FA

[dreadgeek]

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

I don't think I can know what people's hearts are like. I do think I know what people's thoughts are based upon what they write. But thank you, I'm glad you find my tone civil; I strive for my posts to always be civil.


Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Have I ever put my foot in my mouth? Absolutely! Part of why I can be verbose is that I try to make it absolutely clear what I am and am not saying. Being a writer I know that the reader cannot and should not have to try to get inside my head to fill in the things I think are self-evident because they are self-evident to ME. I am curious why you chose the sources that you did.

As far as the having a place for people of all faiths to come together why would it have to be at the Cordoba house site? The argument that the community center should not be built close to the WTC site because it would be better to have a place for people of all faiths to come together seems, well, let's just say I don't follow the logic. The same could be said of ANY building use that was not an interfaith center. "We want to build a 100 story shopping mall a block over from the WTC site..." "Why not build a 100 story center where all people could come together...." See how that works? Extending the logic--and I'm taking your words to mean what they appear to mean--then really ANY building around the WTC site would be just as well used as an ecumenical center. So why is it that the use that would result in a community center frequented by Muslims is questionable while the use as, say, a Burger King or sushi restaurant or, for that matter, 100 story shopping mall wouldn't be?

As far as your statement "who am I to judge..." well, you are a citizen of a democratic republic and so, in point of fact, it is kind of in the job description of citizen to judge such things. If someone wanted to, for instance, open a strip club across the street from the high school I would have issues about that. I would go and make certain that those issues received a public hearing. Am I anti-strip clubs? No, not particularly. Am I anti-sex? Absolutely not! However, I judge it inappropriate to put a strip club across the street from a high school. Am I making a judgement? Yes. That's part of being a responsible citizen. However, in making said judgement, I should expect that my position will be challenged by people who may hold a contrary view. I should be expected to be prepared to explain my reasoning and, if my reasoning is shown to be flawed, incoherent, or based upon non-factual or non-evidentiary grounds then I should also be prepared to change my position.

As I said in my post to you, all of us arguing the other side, are simply looking to understand the why of it and so far, I can't say that I've seen, read or heard a cogent argument about why the place shouldn't be built. I certainly haven't seen a principle applied that any person would want applied universally without favor or prejudice.

Btw. just as an aside--I am defending the rights of practitioners of a religion I do not practice and would not practice (because I don't 'do' theism generally or monotheism specifically) because I believe that minority faiths, ethnic minorities, racial minorities, and queer people are the canaries in the social coal mine. If this is happening to Cordoba house today, and the mosque (which IS a mosque) in Tennessee or California tomorrow, then it's only a matter of time before someone gets around to noticing the couple of million Americans who practice Zen Buddhism and decide that because Japan was Buddhist (which is sort of correct but Shinto was the majority religion in Japan during the War) and since we fought a war 70 years ago, it's not a good idea for there to be Buddhist temples in America.

Btw. the next time you hear someone say something along the theme of "they can build their mosque, just not there" run this one around your head and see what you come up with:

"Blacks can marry anyone they like, as long as the person isn't white."
"Blacks can live anywhere they want, just not next door."
"Gays and lesbians can marry any person they want, just so long as it is a member of the opposite gender."

Different words, identical sentiments. It's like being in favor of, say, your neighbor coming for dinner provided that they don't eat or drink anything.


cheers
Aj

[The_Lady_Snow]

Petraeus: Burning Quran Endangers Americans



http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129701795

[dreadgeek]

I was watching Olbermann and there was a young man on with Afghanistan and Iraq Veterans of America who made a good point that I missed. There are still troops at the tip-of-the-spear in Afghanistan. The Afghanis and the foreign fighters who might be in that country to fight the Americans have satellite TV and Internet access as well. They see news that we see through Al Jazeera or the BBC or CNN World. This Saturday a church in Florida is going to burn the Qur'an as a sign of solidarity with the victims and families of 9/11. This young man, in talking about this event, said something that I think is germane here: images of the Qur'an being will be seen in Afghanistan and there are young men and women whose lives will be put at risk. Images of Americans protesting the building of an Islamic community center will be seen in Afghanistan. Those images will put the lives of soldiers at risk.

My son is one of those soldiers. What we do here in America has consequences off shore. Something that perhaps we might want to think about.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

I was watching Olbermann and there was a young man on with Afghanistan and Iraq Veterans of America who made a good point that I missed. There are still troops at the tip-of-the-spear in Afghanistan. The Afghanis and the foreign fighters who might be in that country to fight the Americans have satellite TV and Internet access as well. They see news that we see through Al Jazeera or the BBC or CNN World. This Saturday a church in Florida is going to burn the Qur'an as a sign of solidarity with the victims and families of 9/11. This young man, in talking about this event, said something that I think is germane here: images of the Qur'an being will be seen in Afghanistan and there are young men and women whose lives will be put at risk. Images of Americans protesting the building of an Islamic community center will be seen in Afghanistan. Those images will put the lives of soldiers at risk.

My son is one of those soldiers. What we do here in America has consequences off shore. Something that perhaps we might want to think about.

Cheers
Aj

Yes, those images will and I am glad that military generals are speaking up about this. No joke about your son and all of the daughters and sons in Afghanistan.

Today while listening to the radio while out, I heard this minister just shine this whole thing on, saying that if more lives were lost, it was not our fault (his congegation planning on doing this), it is Islam's fault. I wanted to climb through the radio waves and smack him. I have a couple of good friends with kids serving in Afghanistan. The thought of them risking their lives for the likes of this minister boils my blood. One of the things our military is trying to accomplish there has to do with changing the way the US is viewed by Muslims. Many are trying to gain trust with a people that have had nothing but war and other countries occuping their country in their country for decades.

I had to just turn the radio off after hearing this- it was in response to Gen. Peteraus (sp?) speaking out about the danger this could escalate for troops. You know, I am actually starting to have physiological responses about this each and every time I hear about the buring, the community center and the coutless bites about anti-Muslim sentiments. My stomach does wrench. I think about my friends (and you, plus other members that have kids/loved ones serving) and think about what it would be like if my kid were there and this was going on. My oldest grand daughter will be 18 soon and what if she decides on a military career? It could happen.

My best to your son, Aj- and I hope these idiots don't do this.

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#39049033


Petraeus Expresses Fear For the Troops

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/ns/msnbc_tv-hardball_with_chris_matthews

[AtLast]

First of all, I stand up and applaud you as well. I appreciate that you did not call me names, put words in my mouth, assume you know me, my heart and what I feel, and think or that I am posting to play a victim here.

Let me now do the best I can do conveying what I think in this post. But I am not here to to have people not like my reasoning so they start assuming again.

I *DO NOT* oppose a community center.
I at first said "I thought it would be "inapproprite" to put a Mosque which I am being told is not a Mosque so a *community center* so close to ground zero.
I then apologized for using the word "inappropriate" because who am I to judge what is and is not appropriate?
I then said I thought it would be nice to have a center which represented all faiths as a place to come together.
Unfortunately, I then chose a poor source for a resource.
Now let me ask you something? Have you never put your foot into your own mouth before? I have on this thread. And I am done inserting it any farther. Understand?
Thanks.

Although, I am usually on the left side of these discussions and honestly view this entire story/issue as just one cog on the wheel of an ever increasing anti-Muslim ladder in the US - I get what you are saying, here.

So often, one statement from a poster is jumped all over when, everyone, has put a foot in their mouth at one time or another. It happens. And since we do not have a 3 dimensional way of "hearing" each other, I find pile ons (not saying that is happening presently) to be very unfair. And a tool for hindering communication because once put on the defensive, most people will dig further into their stance and not consider opposing convictions.

One of the things that I value the most on the site is seeing what other people think about issues, etc. I don't always agree, but, there have been many times that my own thinking has been enriched by someone else's take on things.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Florida pastor calls off Quran burning



http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/09/09/florida.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

[SuperFemme]

so apparently he is saying that he is not going to burn them cuz some Islamic Leader told him that the "mosque" near Ground Zero will be moved elsewhere.

Which is false information, the man who made the statement has nothing to do with the Islamic Center in NY.

so the guy is going to NY on Saturday to meet with....?

eal estate mogul Donald Trump has offered to buy the lower Manhattan site where the Muslim group plans to build an Islamic community center for 25 percent more than the current owners paid for it.
Trump made the offer Thursday in a letter to Hisham Elzanaty, an investor in the Islamic center site.

"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse," he wrote.

beejeezus some people have things so convoluted i don't even know what to think or say.

[Nat]

NY mosque investor declines Trump's buyout offer (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g0eHMurZgpoAsdtQaQlZcGjS8f1wD9I4LPL00)

[Nat]

Obama Sends Best Wishes to Muslims for Eid-al-Fitr (http://www.voanews.com/english/news/usa/Obama-Sends-Best-Wishes-to-Muslims-for-Eid-al-Fitr-102558994.html)

Mr. Obama said this year's Eid is also an occasion to reflect on the importance of religious tolerance.

President Obama said that this year, those affected by the devastated floods in Pakistan will be on the minds of many around the world. He said all Americans can participate in the relief, recovery and reconstruction efforts by donating to the Pakistan Relief Fund at www.state.gov.

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* personally am glad that they did not take Trump's offer, what a pompous ass.

[SuperFemme]

*I* personally am glad that they did not take Trump's offer, what a pompous ass.

right?

and the pastor trading on act of Islamophobia for another makes me throw up in my mouth a little. asshat.

[paposeco]

If someone finds your language offensive, why not find other language to express your opinion?

Why might someone might find language (like nuts and wacko) offensive?

If one member finds it offensive, then might other members find it offensive too?

If we're having a discussion about justice and tolerance shouldn't our collective language be a reflection of that?

Q: how many folks here on this thread, let alone on this site, have used the words, "nuts", "wacko" nut-jobs" ?? What are you going to do censor everybody that does use such "offensive" language?

Again and for the last time. The words I used, are the words I used, and they were NOT meant for anyone here!! I was describing the nuts, the people that hate on other people without even knowing them and causing all kinds of trouble etc etc...k? NOT about anyone here! Tell me, did you also contact others (in private too) that responded to the thread and got on their case about these 'offensive' words ? Someone took this too personally, giving that it wasn't even about them to begin with.
Look, I don't know you, if we disagree ok fine, we disagree..you may use words to express yourself that I may find offensive, but how would you know what those words are, you don't know me...does that keep you from expressing yourself, because I or somebody else (and I'm not talking about verbally attacking someone here because of their opinion) may find offensive?For the last time...I was NOT name calling anybody here those names, keep it in context! You wrote to me in private....among other things, that " I am awaiting your response...", well this is it. Peace and have a nice day.

[AtLast]

*I* personally am glad that they did not take Trump's offer, what a pompous ass.

Me, too! Pompous and always ready for the press and photo ops! Plus, can you imagine the flack from the right-wing with the 25% mark-up and what they would be saying about the money going to Islamic terrorist cells!?

[Corkey]

Sometimes good things happen.

http://www.towleroad.com/2010/09/dude-you-have-no-quran-skateboarder-foils-public-desecration-.html

[Outlaw]

Q: how many folks here on this thread, let alone on this site, have used the words, "nuts", "wacko" nut-jobs" ??

I'm not sure, I haven't been counting and I'm sorry you're feeling singled out and victimized. I think you might be missing my point. FA took exception to your language and indicated that to you directly, yet you continue to use and defend your use of... that very same language.

A better question might be how many people purposely used that language after the exception was taken?

Whether or not I agree with FA's position regarding the main issue of this thread, I think in the least, we should respect another member's sensitivity to language. Language that I find dehumanizing and used to perpetuate inaccurate stereotypes of the mentally ill.

What are you going to do censor everybody that does use such "offensive" language?

I'm not interested in censoring you or anyone else for that matter and I'm sorry you feel censored. Censorship implies the suppression of language, specifically your language, by someone in a position of power...that clearly isn't the case here.

I'm interested in participating in conversations with people who behave sensitively and compassionately of their own volition. When someone has indicated a particular sensitivity to language, my hope is that the sensitivity is respected as one person's truth, and that their truth is upheld and honored...That's all really.

Tell me, did you also contact others (in private too) that responded to the thread and got on their case about these 'offensive' words?

You asked...This is a democracy, if there are folks here that were offended by me and my opinion, please let me know. ...So I did.

In addition, I responded to you specifically because you indicated in this thread and in another thread that FA was the only person who took exception to your language. That clearly isn't the case, so I let you know privately that I also took exception to and currently take exception to, your continual use of the same language. I am happy to take this conversation back to private or to another thread entirely.

We may not intend to offend, but words can be like bullets and our keyboards like guns...if someone gets hurt, doesn't it make sense to put the safety on?

I think we need to be sensitive when using language that historically, has been derogatory. I think we should be especially sensitive when it feels like our insensitivity is targeting people who are already marginalized, like people with psychiatric disabilities.

you may use words to express yourself that I may find offensive

I may, and if I do, I hope you let me know that you found my language offensive, so that I can minimize the damage I do with my words.

[AtLast]

It appears that there was not only one mosque in the twin towers, but two (existed after 1999)! Both blown up on 9/11 obviously. Keith Olberman tonight cited that this was not reported via the media until Sat, 9/11 by a columist in the NY Times. Olberman also talked about how the media has been remiss in not discussing this earlier as this situation has unfolded. Sounded like he did not have this knowledge, as well- I certainly did not know this. I also have no problem with the proposed community center and prayer room (already talked about my personal experience with loss in tghe towers that day).

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/#39161595

This (above link) is the entire podcast of his show tonight, so you have to listen to other stories covered before you get to this info. and where the name of the columist is mentioned that brought this to light on Saturday.

Something else- There were people killed in Afghanistan during anti-US/West demonstrations due to the Florida preacher threatening to burn the Koran. It appears these were civilians that were shot by government troops (don't have links- read article in SF Chronicle morning at breakfast about this).

OK... I have used wacko, etc. and yes, I do use such terms often when referring to right-wing political or Christian extremists. However, since some have been offended, I have not in this thread since they mentioned this.

For me, if something offends another person and they stand up and let me know this, I feel like I should respect their feelings. there are probably quite a few terms/phrases that are offensive to me that can be fairly common and I appreciate it when someone respects my feelings. Frankly, I have learned that we all just can have sensitivities and if I dismiss these feelings, I am devaluing someone.

It isn't a big deal for me to refrain from using some of these terms. It's kind of like knowing that my mother would react to some swear words and out of respect for her, I didn't use them around her. I never felt censored due to this. other people may feel very differently about this.

[o222Good]

It appears that there was not only one mosque in the twin towers, but two (existed after 1999)!

Thanks for sharing that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html

[sweetbutch26]

i don't believe in stereotyping a whole group based on what a few\minority do. our community should know that better than any other! the muslims that want the mosque don't want to fly planes into buildings or hurt or kill anyone and they had nothing to do with 9-11. true terrorism begins the day we lose our constitutional liberties such as freedom of religion.

[AtLast]

Thanks for sharing that.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/nyregion/11religion.html

Thanks for posting another link about this. It is troubling to me that this story didn't break sooner- shows the depth of anti-Muslim sentiments in the US to me. Sad.

[morningstar55]

ya know........Bill O Rilley ... he is a jerk..... and how dare he tell Joy to hush up and that she might learn something..... omg!!
the video clip is in the link below..


If anyone knows how to create water cooler moments on television, it’s the ladies of "The View" and FOX News' Bill O'Reilly. It's no surprise then that putting the two of them together on the same set caused some fireworks.

During a discussion about building a mosque at ground zero -- which O'Reilly is against -- Whoopi Goldberg asks the TV personality why he thinks it would be inappropriate. His response: "Because Muslims killed us on 9/11." This angers Goldberg, who lets an expletive fly out of her mouth before adding that it was religious extremists, and before getting up and walking off the set behind Joy Behar, who herself was angered by the comment.


Barbara Walters apologized for her colleagues' swift departure, which prompted O'Reilly to clarify things. "If anybody thought I was demeaning all Muslims," he said, "I apologize." Goldberg and Behar later returned and the discussion continued. Here's a clip of the entire incident:

http://social.entertainment.msn.com/tv/blogs/tv-buzz-blog.aspx?blog=1746&feat=1b4206e4-4fc8-4e99-a8e8-5dc25c71c760&GT1=28103

28103

[Nat]

Bp891YJw_VY

[katsarecool]

I saw the show. He pretty much disgusts me. And Barbara Walters (excuse the profanity) is an ass kisser from way back!!! And that was a lame apology, If I offended anyone... blah blah blah..

[AtLast]

I saw the show. He pretty much disgusts me. And Barbara Walters (excuse the profanity) is an ass kisser from way back!!! And that was a lame apology, If I offended anyone... blah blah blah..

Very lame. He is such an arrogant ass. And part of a very dangerous group of Faux-News celebs that are bringing more hate to the US. What really pissed me off was the fact that nothing was said about the fact that there were two islamic prayer rooms in the Towers and had been there for many years. What is wrong with people?

[katsarecool]

Very lame. He is such an arrogant ass. And part of a very dangerous group of Faux-News celebs that are bringing more hate to the US. What really pissed me off was the fact that nothing was said about the fact that there were two islamic prayer rooms in the Towers and had been there for many years. What is wrong with people?

I wish I knew the answer to that. I hated the way he treated Joy like she is not intelligent. She is! And then wrapping his piggish arm around her shoulders as if to say "Calm down little lady and listen to what the big man is trying to teach you. " Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!

[AtLast]

I wish I knew the answer to that. I hated the way he treated Joy like she is not intelligent. She is! And then wrapping his piggish arm around her shoulders as if to say "Calm down little lady and listen to what the big man is trying to teach you. " Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!

I know! And when he told her "Pay attention, you'll learn something." I wanted to smack him! I am so sick of some of these idiots! But, you know what, if people don't get off their bums and vote as well as call out these creeps for what they are, we are on a very ugly road. They are taking full advantage of how difficult things are for so many right now.

[waxnrope]

I wish I knew the answer to that. I hated the way he treated Joy like she is not intelligent. She is! And then wrapping his piggish arm around her shoulders as if to say "Calm down little lady and listen to what the big man is trying to teach you. " Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!

I so hate it when they do that! Something happens to me, whether I observe it or experience that type of masculinist fuckery. I can feel the neuronal messages going from thought/brain, to body. I can feel the result of my adrenals, pumping hormone, delivering the kick. My heart racing, blood pressure up, breath coming faster, I even get goose flesh. Something, a darkness, enters my person. At this point, I realize the importance of social control. I so want to wipe that smug, self satisfied expression offa the bastard's face ... whew.

[katsarecool]

Cheers! we all felt the same thing about Bill O'Reily the asswipe! LOL

Is there a thread about voting here? I would like to contribute. I will say this year I did something different. In 2008, it was very difficult to stand in the long line, I was very reluctant and embarrssed to pull the disabled card (which I am) to cut in line. so I stayed and stayed. This year I requested an Absentee ballot which will allow me to vote at home. I can also research the candidates on the net at leisure. I pretty much vote Democrat but if any candidate I think is worthy I will cross party lines. I have nerve damage in both legs and standing still for a long time is pretty painful and draining so this is going to work out much better. And with the application I will never have to ask for the ballot to be mailed out as it will be done automatically. I am excited to cast my votes in this very important mid term election.