Labels

[BatterUpBaby]

While I have utmost respect for anyone's identity, whether it be Butch, Femme, Trans, or otherwise, personally I have not much use for a label.

It does become interesting at times as I often ask my friends, "what am I?" and most laugh. Maybe someone should come up with a non-specific gender/identity word to help describe us fellow out-of-box types.

I know I am non-heterosexual. Isn't that enough?

[D-Money]

While I have utmost respect for anyone's identity, whether it be Butch, Femme, Trans, or otherwise, personally I have not much use for a label.


i'm with you an this!

i couldn't say with any certainty that i am anything when it comes to gender/sexuality/orientation.

i *could be* damn near anything at any given time ... i like it that way ;)

[Words]

While I have utmost respect for anyone's identity, whether it be Butch, Femme, Trans, or otherwise, personally I have not much use for a label.

It does become interesting at times as I often ask my friends, "what am I?" and most laugh. Maybe someone should come up with a non-specific gender/identity word to help describe us fellow out-of-box types.

I know I am non-heterosexual. Isn't that enough?


If it's 'enough' for you, then yes, it's enough.

For me, it wouldn't be enough because I am way more than 'just' non-heterosexual. I earned my queer/femme stripes honestly and I'm proud to wear them on my sleeve.

Words

[BatterUpBaby]

I just don't feel the need to wave the flag of my identity, whatever that is.

My point was not to say who earns or deserves whatever label they feel most comfortable with, but rather to find a good word to describe like-minded people as myself.

[D-Money]

I just don't feel the need to wave the flag of my identity, whatever that is.

My point was not to say who earns or deserves whatever label they feel most comfortable with, but rather to find a good word to describe like-minded people as myself.

and i don't care so much if there is an acceptable word or phrase for such like-minded individuals ... what i am hoping for is a sense of acceptance for us/them. to be able to mix and mingle with label-loving folk without an ever-present sense of our "otherness"

many times, i have found that my refusal to give people an easy way to classify me make them uncomfortable. i get that. but i'm not going wear a label that doesn't fit just for someone else's comfort ;)

[Words]

I just don't feel the need to wave the flag of my identity, whatever that is.

My point was not to say who earns or deserves whatever label they feel most comfortable with, but rather to find a good word to describe like-minded people as myself.


I understood what you were saying. But you asked a question, and I answered.

If you feel that 'non-heterosexual' is enough for you, then that's great - why not use that label (because it is a label) when describing yourself?

Words

[Just_G]

I don't have to wave a flag....I am obviously Butch at first glance and happen to have it tattooed on my body. :D

I came up with my own "label"...don't care if anyone likes it or not. I am me, and that is just how I want to be. My andro friends around here don't get it, they never will. Some of you might not get it....that's cool.

So, to label or not to label....it is your choice...
Peace

[Mitmo01]

Im a fairweather label user, and what I mean by that is it seems to me that categories are important for a lot of people, me not so much.

I feel personally that I am a Butch but I am also so many other things that to categorize myself seems limiting sometimes.

Sometime i really want to spit on labels and other times i claim them, what i do know is that life is mercurial and dynamic and im not a static person by any means.

[D-Money]

I don't have to wave a flag....I am obviously Butch at first glance

for you, Gin, this is truer than true! always has been :)

but it doesn't always work that way for all people ... people look at me in my feminine trappings, they may know that i am with a butch, and assume i am femme.

and they would be wrong.

i hear "of course you're femme! just look at you!"

grr ...

if i must be labeled, i already have one built in: donna

[Words]

and i don't care so much if there is an acceptable word or phrase for such like-minded individuals ... what i am hoping for is a sense of acceptance for us/them. to be able to mix and mingle with label-loving folk without an ever-present sense of our "otherness"many times, i have found that my refusal to give people an easy way to classify me make them uncomfortable. i get that. but i'm not going wear a label that doesn't fit just for someone else's comfort ;)

And I don't blame you. I wouldn't either.

It's really no one's business but yours how you ID and if you feel that you're being pressured/discriminated against here because you refuse to ID one way or another, then I'm sure that the Admin would want to hear about it.

Words

[D-Money]

And I don't blame you. I wouldn't either.

It's really no one's business but yours how you ID and if you feel that you're being pressured/discriminated against here because you refuse to ID one way or another, then I'm sure that the Admin would want to hear about it.

Words

no no, nothing like that has happened ... although i do have some concern and an eye for the future. i toyed with the idea of starting a thread similar to this for days ... i'm not gonna lie, i'm a little gun shy to initiate any heavy gender discussions. i'm glad BatterUpBaby did it :)

[Scorp]

I'm just me and I never liked labels either. All I know is that I love and adore feminine women. All shapes and sizes. They just knock my socks off.

[Mitmo01]

the tone of this site seems to be much more open to free thinking, i dont think anyone is going to send the thought police after them here...

it feels like people are not going to get smacked down for saying something they want to express or think or feel...not so much for other places unfortunatley

[Mitmo01]

mmmmmmm i love shapes and sizes...yum

[little man]

when traveling in the world outside queer culture, labels don't really apply so much, do they?

personally, i'm fond of being called mister. i just like it. i gots a ton of labels, not any of them indicative of my sexual proclivities. i think w/in queer culture, it's used mostly as a marker for who's fair game for what. again, with polarities and binaries, eh?

some people in this world cannot find the box, let alone the outside of it. they need labels, billboards and some hand-holding. the key is that you're cool with who you are. anyone who isn't, probably isn't worth the time.

[D-Money]

i am unnaturally fond of Flavor Blast Goldfish crackers ... label me for that ;)

[Words]

i am unnaturally fond of Flavor Blast Goldfish crackers ... label me for that ;)


Do they make you fart?

If they don't, then you're obviously a femme because everyone knows that femmes don't fart.

Seriously.

Words

[D-Money]

Do they make you fart?

If they don't, then you're obviously a femme because everyone knows that femmes don't fart.

Seriously.

Words

hhahahahahahahahaaha!! NO!! and NO, missy!!

[D-Money]

okay, back to serious ...

for years, claiming 'femme' was very much a part of who i thought i was.

on other butch/femme sites (i don't feel the need to specify) i was that bitch who grilled non-label-lovers who came to the site claiming they didn't label themselves. "this site is for butches and femmes! if you don't identify, wtf are you doing here?! go find your own site, you ... you LESBIAN!" i didn't even realize my own need at the time to label them ... or even that i was doing it.

i was so wrapped up in how important my own label was to me that i didn't even listen to where they might have been coming from- i was blind to everything but what i perceived to be an attack on my own labeling of myself.

in light of the course of my own journey in recent years, i can see myself on the other side of that controversy. i probably deserve it ... (i really was a bitch)

[Words]

Well, since you're eating crackers made of poor little goldfish then you're obviously not a vegetarian, which rules out the possibility of your being a lesbian, (because everyone knows that lesbians only eat hummus and tabouleh), so...I have to wonder....

Do you only eat goldfish crackers or do you sometimes eat other types of crackers as well (in which case, you must be bi-sexual because everyone knows that bisexuals are indecisive and lack the ability to choose one type of cracker and stick with it)?

Well?

Words

[D-Money]

Well, since you're eating crackers made of poor little goldfish then you're obviously not a vegetarian, which rules out the possibility of your being a lesbian, (because everyone knows that lesbians only eat hummus and tabouleh), so...I have to wonder....

Do you only eat goldfish crackers or do you sometimes eat other types of crackers as well (in which case, you must be bi-sexual because everyone knows that bisexuals are indecisive and lack the ability to choose one type of cracker and stick with it)?

Well?

Words

i'll eat them all *weg* ...

not because i'm indecisive ... but because i love them all!!

(you're use of stereotypes is cracking me up!)

[little man]

i'll eat them all *weg* ...

not because i'm indecisive ... but because i love them all!!

(you're use of stereotypes is cracking me up!)

so, you're saying you're an omnivore?

[Mitmo01]

Do they make you fart?

If they don't, then you're obviously a femme because everyone knows that femmes don't fart.

Seriously.

Words

ahhahahahahaha lmfao that is hilarious the ones i know can blow louder than i can lol

[Jett]

...on one hand it's is useful to have something to say "in a nutshell this is what I am". Still I don't like the confining feel that comes with them, because whether you like it or not, people are going to use their lens and paint you with their interpretation of your label.

It use to bug the crap out of me... at this point in my life I really don't care as much... I am who I am and those who truly care will take the time to get to know me.

[D-Money]

so, you're saying you're an omnivore?

and then some, Mister! ;)

although i do have my faves ...

back to serious again ... i have lately had a lot of folk attempt to slap the "bi-sexual" label on me ... i will fight that tooth and nail!

for some reason, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to who you fuck.

as we know, this is crap.

[little man]

for some reason, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to who you fuck.



damn...i'm nothing? does that mean i have special invisibility powers?

[D-Money]

damn...i'm nothing? does that mean i have special invisibility powers?

oh no, my friend ... you are amazing! :)

as i said, we all know this is crap!

maybe i should have said "for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to who you want to fuck.

[little man]

oh no, my friend ... you are amazing! :)

as i said, we all know this is crap!

whew! i am kinda bummed about no special powers, though. ;)

[Words]

okay, back to serious ...

for years, claiming 'femme' was very much a part of who i thought i was.

on other butch/femme sites (i don't feel the need to specify) i was that bitch who grilled non-label-lovers who came to the site claiming they didn't label themselves. "this site is for butches and femmes! if you don't identify, wtf are you doing here?! go find your own site, you ... you LESBIAN!" i didn't even realize my own need at the time to label them ... or even that i was doing it.

i was so wrapped up in how important my own label was to me that i didn't even listen to where they might have been coming from- i was blind to everything but what i perceived to be an attack on my own labeling of myself.

in light of the course of my own journey in recent years, i can see myself on the other side of that controversy. i probably deserve it ... (i really was a bitch)


I agree that in many cases, it's for our own benefit that we want/expect others to ID one way or another. I have to say though that one of the reasons I prefer to know how someone IDs is that I don't want to offend them by referring to them in a way that makes them uncomfortable and I would imagine that that's fairly common. So, in a way, it can be a no win situation. Ask them how they ID and make them feel pressured into IDing one way or another, or not ask them, and possibly insult them by assuming?

Make sense?

[little man]

I agree that in many cases, it's for our own benefit that we want/expect others to ID one way or another. I have to say though that one of the reasons I prefer to know how someone IDs is that I don't want to offend them by referring to them in a way that makes them uncomfortable and I would imagine that that's fairly common. So, in a way, it can be a no win situation. Ask them how they ID and make them feel pressured into IDing one way or another, or not ask them, and possibly insult them by assuming?

Make sense?

perhaps best to ask for pronoun preference?

[D-Money]

I agree that in many cases, it's for our own benefit that we want/expect others to ID one way or another. I have to say though that one of the reasons I prefer to know how someone IDs is that I don't want to offend them by referring to them in a way that makes them uncomfortable and I would imagine that that's fairly common. So, in a way, it can be a no win situation. Ask them how they ID and make them feel pressured into IDing one way or another, or not ask them, and possibly insult them by assuming?

Make sense?

yes, it does make sense ... i can see what that might look like.

but i do think that the discomfort that may be caused by asking is likely to be less than the discomfort caused by labeling without asking.

[D-Money]

perhaps best to ask for pronoun preference?

ah, but there are SOOOO many other gender/orientation/sexuality/identity assumptions that are made besides that!

[little man]

ah, but there are SOOOO many other gender/orientation/sexuality/identity assumptions that are made besides that!

i try always to spell and pronounce someone's name correctly. i try to use proper pronouns. after that, i don't much care. i'm not going to refer to someone's other stuff unless i know them well. i guess i really don't care about all that too much....in so far as speaking with someone goes. if a friendship develops, then there will be opportunity for those conversations to be had.

[Words]

and then some, Mister! ;)for some reason, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to who you fuck.

as we know, this is crap.

I think it goes even further than that. I would say, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to not only who you fuck, but how you fuck.

For example, I'm a femme submissive. The assumption being - as far as many are concerned - that I'm some kind of pillow princess unable to adopt anything but a totally passive role in bed. Which of course, is absolute bullshit because as a submissive, my desire is to please, not to be pleased, including sexually. So although my Top definitely calls the shots, if you will, in bed, as elsewhere, if pleasing Hym requires my pretending to be a big, bad leather daddy and fucking Hym senseless until Hy begs for mercy (which it doesn't, but hey, it could), then that is what I will do.

Pillow princess? I don't think so. Not that I have anything against those who do ID that way but do you see where I'm coming from?

Words

[bonne-maman]

I love gender threads.....

it seems one thing that might be tweaked out here...is the similarity between defining oneself and not defining oneself...

I have known butches who feel the word "butch" very much captures their gender, because their definition of "butch" is either:
1) a person who is both male and female,
OR
2) a person who is neither male or female; but a third gender, that combines elements of both male and female

I also have friends who use the word "genderqueer" and to them it means either #1 or #2 above.

On the other hand, I think I hear some people, on this thread, saying they do not want to use a label or word for their gender precisely because they think of themselves similarly to numbers 1 or 2 above. They think of themselves as between or combined, and do not feel a word or label adequately expresses this for them.

I very much love when people do different things for the same reason, or do the same things for different reasons, or arrive at the same place using various paths, or use the same path to arrive at different places or......well, this is crystal clear, right?:p

[little man]

I think it goes even further than that. I would say, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to not only who you fuck, but how you fuck.


Words


i think this is my sticking point, right here. i just don't think it's any of my business. perhaps it's because i tend to be a private person, that i use privacy as a default for others.

unless you and i decide to engage in some sort of intimacy, what's it to me? nothing, really. i am eternally curious about most everything, but don't always inquire or feel that someone is obligated to let me know these things.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I don't care for labels. Never have. The brain is the most important sex organ, not what is in my pants if you ask me.

Andrew

[Jet]

I like my label and I like using it to describe myself: Transgendered (and pre-T FTM.) For me, my label provides a sense of order, clarity and a solid identification of what I am. It also signals boundries of what I will and will not tolerate within my own community; discrimination being the first.

[Darth Denkay]

I feel similarly. I appreciate labels for a couple reasons. One, they give me a starting point. They don't map out the whole entity but I've got something to start with. Secondly, my identity allowed myself to find a community, to realize there is a name for someone like me. Butch doesn't box me in - it allows me to be free to be me.

...on one hand it's is useful to have something to say "in a nutshell this is what I am". Still I don't like the confining feel that comes with them, because whether you like it or not, people are going to use their lens and paint you with their interpretation of your label.

It use to bug the crap out of me... at this point in my life I really don't care as much... I am who I am and those who truly care will take the time to get to know me.

[Diva]

When I first came out, my friends were trying to set me up with one who later became my partner for 8 years.....but when she first saw me, she leaned over to our mutual friend and said, "She's not a lesbian, she's somebody's Mother!"

She got it half right. :D I like that label, too......

I have evolved since then..... <smile> Though I'm still using the Mom Label.

~Diva

[D-Money]

Though I'm still using the Mom Label.



yeah, i hear that one a lot, too ... on days when i'm really lucky! ;)

[BullDog]

I feel similarly. I appreciate labels for a couple reasons. One, they give me a starting point. They don't map out the whole entity but I've got something to start with. Secondly, my identity allowed myself to find a community, to realize there is a name for someone like me. Butch doesn't box me in - it allows me to be free to be me.

I certainly don't think of my gender identity as a label. To quote someone from somewhere, labels are for soup cans.

I do agree with the Wicket- "Butch doesn't box me in - it allows me to be free to be me." And yes our identities is the major reason for how we all found each other here in this community in the first place.

[D-Money]

'femme' doesn't box me in ... it just doesn't fit. it's not who i am.

[Tommi]

When I first came out, my friends were trying to set me up with one who later became my partner for 8 years.....but when she first saw me, she leaned over to our mutual friend and said, "She's not a lesbian, she's somebody's Mother!"

She got it half right. :D I like that label, too......

I have evolved since then..... <smile> Though I'm still using the Mom Label.

~Diva



When I was foot loose and fancy free, I saw the Diva, and did not think of it in that manner.. Maybe Holy Mother of G....Phew..or whose the hot MAMA in town...well, just sayin...that Red Dress

yer lil Punkin ;)

http://redhotmamawine.com/images/red_hot_mama_border.jpg

[Diva]

When I was foot loose and fancy free, I saw the Diva, and did not think of it in that manner.. Maybe Holy Mother of G....Phew..or whose the hot MAMA in town...well, just sayin...that Red Dress

yer lil Punkin ;)

http://redhotmamawine.com/images/red_hot_mama_border.jpg



What a lovely compliment! Thank You so much, precious Punkin Head! ;)


~Diva (LOVIN' that graphic! I stole it! <giggle> )

[Leigh]

Well you know what they say right?

Labels are for soup cans :p

[Mister Bent]

Looking for a descriptor would be in kind a label, no? .... Yes :) ?

I certainly don't think of my gender identity as a label. To quote someone from somewhere, labels are for soup cans.


Well you know what they say right?

Labels are for soup cans :p

But why do soup cans have labels? We all know what a can of soup looks like, right? But it sure is handy to know what flavor (because personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I wanted chicken and stars and got split pea).

On the other hand, I'm not having a conversation with a can of soup where I can learn what it's got going on inside.

Which brings me back to Jack's very pertinent comment. Is a label different than a descriptor? If we describe a man as tall and hairy, is that his label? Seems like he's probably much more than tall/hairy.

One can appear butch (physical descriptor), but not be butch, so how does butch apply as a label? Just as D-Money says by appearance she is sometimes (often?) called "femme," but she says femme is not who/what she is.

Another way to approach it - how does label relate to identity? Personally, I agree with BullDog - I don't see my gender identity as a label.

[D-Money]

But why do soup cans have labels? We all know what a can of soup looks like, right? But it sure is handy to know what flavor (because personally, I'd be pretty pissed if I wanted chicken and stars and got split pea).

On the other hand, I'm not having a conversation with a can of soup where I can learn what it's got going on inside.

Which brings me back to Jack's very pertinent comment. Is a label different than a descriptor? If we describe a man as tall and hairy, is that his label? Seems like he's probably much more than tall/hairy.

One can appear butch (physical descriptor), but not be butch, so how does butch apply as a label? Just as D-Money says by appearance she is sometimes (often?) called "femme," but she says femme is not who/what she is.

Another way to approach it - how does label relate to identity? Personally, I agree with BullDog - I don't see my gender identity as a label.


you make some really good points ...

i think there is a definite difference between a label and a descriptor.

we can label someone "butch" ... or we can describe them as "manly", "masculine", etc.

we can label someone "femme" ... or we can describe them as "feminine", "girly", etc.

just because a queer woman is very feminine doesn't make her femme.

[BullDog]

Mister Bent I certainly agree with you. I don't find the term label to be meaningful at all. The only ways I have really ever heard it used is people asking me why I need a label or people saying they don't need a label. Well for me label has no useful meaning or connection to what my gender identity is. It simply doesn't apply.

I think of label as outside-in. People are making a determination/judgment and trying to define something/someone.

I think of gender identity as inside-out: it is something that is hard won that comes from within myself that gets presented out into the world- whether it be through presentation, finding community (like this site), like minded friends, lovers and partners that compliment my gender identity among other things, and of course the never ending journey of self discovery in all its various, multi-faceted forms. Label plays no part.

It is also very true that someone can look "butch" or look "femme" and not identify that way at all.

I also know that some people find gender identities like butch and femme to be constraining or to not adequately describe who they are. For me butch is not constraining. My personal meaning comes from within, it is not imposed from outside. However, for others butch and other gender identities might be constraining or limiting. I do understand and respect that. I just get bafffled when they equate that to having a label. I don't have a label.

[NJFemmie]

At one point, a label was something important to me - only because it seemed important for other people to categorize me. I could care less about labels now. I still use the femme label, but only for descriptive reasons. Other than that, I'm just me doing my own thing, and I am totally okay with that again.

It seemed that the label phenomenon was more of a burden. Now, I no longer feel confined or strapped to the perceptions of other people's stereotypes.

I respect everyone for who they are, no matter what they are or how they define themselves. I have always been the kind of woman who believes "be who you are and not who people expect you to be."

Thank you for listening.
:soapbox: <-- minus the angry rant ;)

[Gemme]

okay, back to serious ...

for years, claiming 'femme' was very much a part of who i thought i was.

on other butch/femme sites (i don't feel the need to specify) i was that bitch who grilled non-label-lovers who came to the site claiming they didn't label themselves. "this site is for butches and femmes! if you don't identify, wtf are you doing here?! go find your own site, you ... you LESBIAN!" i didn't even realize my own need at the time to label them ... or even that i was doing it.

i was so wrapped up in how important my own label was to me that i didn't even listen to where they might have been coming from- i was blind to everything but what i perceived to be an attack on my own labeling of myself.

in light of the course of my own journey in recent years, i can see myself on the other side of that controversy. i probably deserve it ... (i really was a bitch)

You say bitch like it's not a label unto itself. ;)

Well, since you're eating crackers made of poor little goldfish then you're obviously not a vegetarian, which rules out the possibility of your being a lesbian, (because everyone knows that lesbians only eat hummus and tabouleh), so...I have to wonder....

Do you only eat goldfish crackers or do you sometimes eat other types of crackers as well (in which case, you must be bi-sexual because everyone knows that bisexuals are indecisive and lack the ability to choose one type of cracker and stick with it)?

Well?

Words

You're cracking me up today!

:fart:

[foxyshaman]

I really appreciate the opinions and thoughts I have read in respect to this issue, here and other places. It led me on a very interesting cruise through my own perceptions and assumptions. I appreciate anything that can make me open my eyes and see things from all sorts of angles. And I must say that the voices here have certainly opened my eyes and thoughts.

I have always been a bit leary to post in these topics because I was not sure I could contribute much 'value wise' to the discussion. And then I thought well maybe I do have another point of view that might be interesting.

I struggled for many years with my own self concept and compartmentalization of my pieces. I have struggled through the years because I felt I walked in two (and lots of times more) worlds. I did not understand why my spiritual and then shamanic work was so different from others. I experienced very masculine journeys, rituals, healings... etc. Hell I can't even build a pretty feminine altar, no wonder the witches wanted nothing to do with me!! (I hope my humor is not completely lost here :worried:). Then I started reading a little here and there about shamans being the third gender, or the multiple gender. Being a disenfranchised no tribe white woman I had no elders to say "oh yes you feel that way because...". Instead I had books written by male dominated historical recorders clinging desperately to their binary mindset, that they seemed fairly incapable of recording the special role shamans held/hold. There is an association of gender 'difference' with supernatural powers; gender-transformed shamans were quite common.

Anyway, my long drawn out point is that I came to understand why I have called myself a tri-sexual for so many years. When I found out there was an actual term tri-sexual I was... stunned really. I am grateful for the converstations I have read discussing gender issues. We all see ourselves through different lenses. I have continued to research anthropological texts and journals discussing the two-spirits, the third genders, the fourth genders... etc.

Thanks for listening to just a few of a foxes thoughts.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Label Schmabel but if you must know I am Transgendered not FTM, YET

[suebee]

for you, Gin, this is truer than true! always has been :)

but it doesn't always work that way for all people ... people look at me in my feminine trappings, they may know that i am with a butch, and assume i am femme.

and they would be wrong.

i hear "of course you're femme! just look at you!"

grr ...

if i must be labeled, i already have one built in: donna

Hello Donna! I'm Sue :floatbee:

I think it goes even further than that. I would say, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to not only who you fuck, but how you fuck.

For example, I'm a femme submissive. The assumption being - as far as many are concerned - that I'm some kind of pillow princess unable to adopt anything but a totally passive role in bed. Which of course, is absolute bullshit because as a submissive, my desire is to please, not to be pleased, including sexually. So although my Top definitely calls the shots, if you will, in bed, as elsewhere, if pleasing Hym requires my pretending to be a big, bad leather daddy and fucking Hym senseless until Hy begs for mercy (which it doesn't, but hey, it could), then that is what I will do.

Pillow princess? I don't think so. Not that I have anything against those who do ID that way but do you see where I'm coming from?

Words

I dunno Words. Ever since I saw those pictures of you in butch shorts...... Jus' sayin'! :eyebat:

'femme' doesn't box me in ... it just doesn't fit. it's not who i am.

This resonates with me. First off, since I spent twenty years living in French, the word "femme" just means "woman" to me. My gender, but not my sexual identity. But beyond that, it just doesn't seem to fit. If ever I come up with a descriptor I'm comfortable with, I'll use it. But really the point is that I simply don't feel the need to. Believe me, it would have been easier many, many times to simply say I was femme. But if you can't be true to yourself in describing your identity........ well?

I've been asked to justify my presence in the b-f community. I'm attracted to masculine women. Other than that, should I need to justify my presence? (and obviously I'm not talking about THIS site!)

Sue :bouquet:

[MainelyButch]

I admit I use the label Butch for myself and I am fine with the labels/descriptors that people use for themselves. What would we call the butch-femme community be without the labels "butch" and "femme"? :) Now stereotyping is a totally different thing...but, I believe, that without some sort of identifier, descriptor, or label (whatever one wants to refer to it as) we would have a difficult time in conversation and in identifying one another.

Also, we call them "labels" but they are so much more sometimes. As someone else said "descriptors", or identifiers...it's like the word "label" has gotten a bad rap because we tend to associate it with stereotypes. Everyone is different, sot he stereotypes don't work across the board, but the "labels" can be much more versatile, in my opinion.

Good topic by the way!!!

[ZoeyJayne]

I got sick of being told that I am this or that.. I just made it wicked easy on everyone i am a desbian... (desiree + lesbian=) I am not changing for anyone or explaining myself for anyone for that matter. Take me or leave me :P

[Gemme]

If we're being very precise, I identify as a Queer Stone Femme Girl. There is an abundant amount of people in this world, in our community and not, that have no idea what that means or even what the individual markers mean to me. Some days I have the patience and desire to educate and some days I don't.

I like labels. They are useful tools, but, like any other tool, they can be used for good and for evil. The value lies within the beholder, I believe.

[Boots13]

...i am a desbian... (desiree + lesbian=) :P

hmmm, guess this makes me a bootsbian...I'm ok with that!

I dont live my "mainstream" life consistently vocally pushing my sexual, political, moral, or religious identity...well, not as a general practice.
So, while I'm socializing in queer circles how useful is it to know that I id as Butch? I'm partnered, I'm not dating or searching for my "other".
While socializing in hetero circles, how important is it to let people know I id as Butch? While cultivating my career, how important is it to identify to my employer as Butch?

I am searching for kindness, like-hearted people. People who serve their greater community in some capacity. People who care about other people.

I think identifying as a particular gender or aligning with a specific descriptor is a jumping off or a starting place. Its a place that we can seek validation or understanding from like people. Its a start to understanding a shared experience. And perhaps a signal to the world that people engage their lives in such a wide array of ways.

So for me, its a descriptor that points me, incrementally, toward a general direction in understanding someone and in helping them to understand a facet of me.

[Toofrufru]

Labels of me are for other people. To me I am just me. I do not feel like a commodity to be bought or sold therefore I need no label. I try to identify with someone through my experience on a heart level. I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences if any of those should help another human feel "apart of" along the way, then both of lives are richer for having known each other.
On a side note I do have and am attracted to those with bootsbian tendency. :winky:

[Mister Bent]

Labels of me are for other people. To me I am just me. I do not feel like a commodity to be bought or sold therefore I need no label. I try to identify with someone through my experience on a heart level. I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences if any of those should help another human feel "apart of" along the way, then both of lives are richer for having known each other.
On a side note I do have and am attracted to those with bootsbian tendency. :winky:


"I am a conglomerate of all my life experiences."

Yes.

This is where I struggle with labels and identity politics. The sum of me is more than my label or gender identity or sexuality or age or ________ (fill in the blank).

"Labels of me are for other people."

Yes. And they are often used as much to count us out, as to count us in. When we label each other based on one set of parameters of an identity, we often cease listening, or valuing the experiences of others. In saying so, I don't remove myself from accountability - I know for certain I have done it. As a result, sometimes I prefer to not look for the labels we wear in these online forums, so that I can read the words of another without bringing that baggage with me - "of course she would say that, she's _________ (fill in the blank)."

[Jess]

Perhaps it is personal evolution or perhaps it is just getting older that brings me to where I feel I have come full circle, regarding "labels, identifiers, rainbow badge of courage" . The "learning the rules" so I can then forget them, so to speak.

When I first learned about using the web to network and reach out of my sense of isolation ( feelings of being misunderstood or having no intimately familiar community in "real time" ) , I also learned of ALL of the different words used to describe the different facets of people. This was especially difficult to navigate within "gender choice positive" communities such as the butch-femme welcoming sites.

I was no longer just a dyke. I was no longer just a lesbian. No longer just a freak who liked S/m. I found a whole brand spanking new set of "words" that helped me describe not only who I am, but what I like, am attracted to, want to spend energy being near. I found the words that for me, helped describe both physical and some mental/ emotional/ sexual and social attributes and I took them on more as a way to find "like minded" individuals than as necessarily a box I wanted to stay in.

I chose the nic SyrJess as a way to say " I am a masculine female Top" , because at that time, it was important for me in my seeking others within both gender choice positive space and BDSMers to form community with. I always used Syr to mark the difference between being a masculine woman and an FTM. It worked for me for years.

As I have grown older and hopefully wiser, I no longer feel that same "driven" desire to adamantly express "who I am" and the need to be seen as valued for my "labels". Yes, I'm still a big ole butt spanking butch, however today there is only one butt I want to spank and she knows I am "butch" so I don't feel a need to "advertise" any longer... LOL.

Do I want to be "seen" and/or valued for being Butch/ Top/ Stone/ masculine/ female ? Absolutely. I feel today however, it is more important for me to be valued by ME first. "Me".. free of labels and qualifiers/ identifiers. I am learning to be the sum of all those parts and not just a fraction of them.

It has been and I am sure will continue to be, a " very strange trip" indeed.

[christie]

Perhaps it is personal evolution or perhaps it is just getting older that brings me to where I feel I have come full circle, regarding "labels, identifiers, rainbow badge of courage" . The "learning the rules" so I can then forget them, so to speak.

When I first learned about using the web to network and reach out of my sense of isolation ( feelings of being misunderstood or having no intimately familiar community in "real time" ) , I also learned of ALL of the different words used to describe the different facets of people. This was especially difficult to navigate within "gender choice positive" communities such as the butch-femme welcoming sites.

I was no longer just a dyke. I was no longer just a lesbian. No longer just a freak who liked S/m. I found a whole brand spanking new set of "words" that helped me describe not only who I am, but what I like, am attracted to, want to spend energy being near. I found the words that for me, helped describe both physical and some mental/ emotional/ sexual and social attributes and I took them on more as a way to find "like minded" individuals than as necessarily a box I wanted to stay in.

I chose the nic SyrJess as a way to say " I am a masculine female Top" , because at that time, it was important for me in my seeking others within both gender choice positive space and BDSMers to form community with. I always used Syr to mark the difference between being a masculine woman and an FTM. It worked for me for years.

As I have grown older and hopefully wiser, I no longer feel that same "driven" desire to adamantly express "who I am" and the need to be seen as valued for my "labels". Yes, I'm still a big ole butt spanking butch, however today there is only one butt I want to spank and she knows I am "butch" so I don't feel a need to "advertise" any longer... LOL.

Do I want to be "seen" and/or valued for being Butch/ Top/ Stone/ masculine/ female ? Absolutely. I feel today however, it is more important for me to be valued by ME first. "Me".. free of labels and qualifiers/ identifiers. I am learning to be the sum of all those parts and not just a fraction of them.

It has been and I am sure will continue to be, a " very strange trip" indeed.

Its been an amazing transformation - and I am humbled to stand beside you as you have moved through this part of your evolution and to see you love you as I have been so blessed to do.

Change is not easy, especially for ole :goat:. Its downright scary. It takes so much courage to walk the road you've been on and I am so very proud to be your wife.

Sorry for the derail, folks. I just couldn't let this pass without acknowledging.
Back to your regularly scheduled program!

[Jess]

Its been an amazing transformation - and I am humbled to stand beside you as you have moved through this part of your evolution and to see you love you as I have been so blessed to do.

Change is not easy, especially for ole :goat:. Its downright scary. It takes so much courage to walk the road you've been on and I am so very proud to be your wife.

Sorry for the derail, folks. I just couldn't let this pass without acknowledging.
Back to your regularly scheduled program!


Woman, I am gonna stalk you forever :heartbeat: :heartbeat::heartbeat:

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think it goes even further than that. I would say, for a lot of people, who you are all comes down to not only who you fuck, but how you fuck.

For example, I'm a femme submissive. The assumption being - as far as many are concerned - that I'm some kind of pillow princess unable to adopt anything but a totally passive role in bed. Which of course, is absolute bullshit because as a submissive, my desire is to please, not to be pleased, including sexually. So although my Top definitely calls the shots, if you will, in bed, as elsewhere, if pleasing Hym requires my pretending to be a big, bad leather daddy and fucking Hym senseless until Hy begs for mercy (which it doesn't, but hey, it could), then that is what I will do.

Pillow princess? I don't think so. Not that I have anything against those who do ID that way but do you see where I'm coming from?

Words

I understand. but Words, the only time my ID seems to matter is on-line. If I go to the pub with a varient ammount of genderqueer, butch, femme, trans, feminine queer ...wotever... no one asks me how I ID. nor do I ask them. I know a lot a people here, and I only know how a few of them ID. It's really none of my business what their gender is, what their sexual expression is. I know they are queer, I know we talk about queer stuff, but the ID stuff just rarely comes into it, in person. I know who's kinky by feel (the majority of my aquaintances and friends) and we occationally mention what new store opened or what new device was great, but other than that... I don't really talk about the details of our sexual relationships except with my closest of friends (who is straight and vanilla). No one asks me details like that either.

The power play that occurs in our relationship, no one really knows about, not because we'd be judged - god no, as far as I know most of my friends do similar things (by off hand comments) but it's just not typical pub type convos and I don't think anyone gives a shite and frankly, doesn't want to know which way one of us was tied up last tuesday.

the furthest I have to consider anyone's ID is their pronoun. that's it. other than that it's pretty much... an internal matter for them and me. How they see a movie, what art they did, if we are going to queer theater sports, what did they think of the paint colour, how much overtime they worked... really has nothing to do with what gender/ID they are. So it doesn't really matter.

the very deep conversations I have with close friends... that's different. but at that point I know their internal dialogue. I understand, accept and care for them. Their gender/ID and sexuality still don't matter (my closest friends: two straight girls, one queer gal, two femme ID'd gals and two gender blenders) but I at least understand their background and what they think are important.

I just don't need to know how they ID. Don't really care.

but That may be because I'm in london. When I was in Oxford and felt very isolated and very *very* different with one person who understood my gender politics and history, I was for more concerned with how people ID'd. Probably because I needed to connect with people I hoped would be "More like me."

[Jess]

I understand. but Words, the only time my ID seems to matter is on-line. If I go to the pub with a varient ammount of genderqueer, butch, femme, trans, feminine queer ...wotever... no one asks me how I ID. nor do I ask them. I know a lot a people here, and I only know how a few of them ID. It's really none of my business what their gender is, what their sexual expression is. I know they are queer, I know we talk about queer stuff, but the ID stuff just rarely comes into it, in person. I know who's kinky by feel (the majority of my aquaintances and friends) and we occationally mention what new store opened or what new device was great, but other than that... I don't really talk about the details of our sexual relationships except with my closest of friends (who is straight and vanilla). No one asks me details like that either.

The power play that occurs in our relationship, no one really knows about, not because we'd be judged - god no, as far as I know most of my friends do similar things (by off hand comments) but it's just not typical pub type convos and I don't think anyone gives a shite and frankly, doesn't want to know which way one of us was tied up last tuesday.

the furthest I have to consider anyone's ID is their pronoun. that's it. other than that it's pretty much... an internal matter for them and me. How they see a movie, what art they did, if we are going to queer theater sports, what did they think of the paint colour, how much overtime they worked... really has nothing to do with what gender/ID they are. So it doesn't really matter.

the very deep conversations I have with close friends... that's different. but at that point I know their internal dialogue. I understand, accept and care for them. Their gender/ID and sexuality still don't matter (my closest friends: two straight girls, one queer gal, two femme ID'd gals and two gender blenders) but I at least understand their background and what they think are important.

I just don't need to know how they ID. Don't really care.

but That may be because I'm in london. When I was in Oxford and felt very isolated and very *very* different with one person who understood my gender politics and history, I was for more concerned with how people ID'd. Probably because I needed to connect with people I hoped would be "More like me."

Very happy to see you here! Have missed your voice!

Hugs!

and I never cared how you ID..lol and I still am not sure I know! and prolly won't ask

btw, here's yer sheep :sheep:

[imperfect_cupcake]

behhhh!!

Good lord is that Morrisey bleating away...?

http://smokenmirrorsblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/hoof.jpg

[owen4u1904]

When I first came out, my friends were trying to set me up with one who later became my partner for 8 years.....but when she first saw me, she leaned over to our mutual friend and said, "She's not a lesbian, she's somebody's Mother!"

She got it half right. :D I like that label, too......

I have evolved since then..... <smile> Though I'm still using the Mom Label.

~Diva







I like that one, after just now coming out I am still trying to figure out the whole clothes and labeling thing. I believe that you should not label yourself. You love who you love and at that is all. I would love to see people just go with feelings. I also do not like the idea that if you dress more "girly" you are considered femme. I dress in what I feel comfortable in, may it one day be a nice cute shirt and some nice pants or the next day a hoodie and baggy jeans. I am not trying to impress anyone with my looks, as long as I know I feel good about myself then I that is what I am most concerned about. And yes that whole mom label though is me, which is what I want people to see first and foremost.

[luciddreamer]

I am not one for labels either...I am "just me"...lol I love my t-shirts,tank tops and jeans...but I also loveeee my lacy bras, thongs,tight fitting cleavage showing tops and a equally nice fitting pair of jeans with matching belt and shoes...lmao

As long as you are happy and comfortable I say !!!

[casey35]

i am kinda new to the out of the closet so to speak( 6 years). I would be consider a femme by most who dont know me. But i am more then that I love the outside and sports and like getting dirty. But i also love my heels and dresses. I think everyone is more then just a label because most labels dont address all of you. That my humble opinion.

[Andrew, Jr.]

For me, and me alone, I don't like labels. I am me. I know who and what I am. I just have fought harder than most have because of my horrible childhood. I respect each and everyone for who and what they are. You never know what journey we each have lived through. And what cards we were delt in life.

Andrew

[casey35]

i was talking to friends and found out i was one of the only femmes they know that does not carry a purse. Dont know why i would need one only thing u need is a bank card, driver license, and your phone pockets are big enough for these things.
:harley:
ok i just think that this harley cute:ballerina:

[Soon]

<snip>

....

It does become interesting at times as I often ask my friends, "what am I?" and most laugh. Maybe someone should come up with a non-specific gender/identity word to help describe us fellow out-of-box types.



First Person in the World to be Declared Officially Genderless (http://www.tonic.com/article/first-person-in-the-world-officially-declared-genderless/)

Norrie May-Welby is recognized as gender-neutral by Australian authorities, making history in the process.

Happy to live life as neither a man nor a woman, Norrie May-Welby, a sex and gender diverse activist in Sydney, dedicated a lot of time fighting for equal rights. Now, in a groundbreaking move, Australia has made history by acknowledging that May-Welby is indeed gender-free, issuing legal documentation, stating so.

Born as a man, May-Welby was raised in Scotland before emigrating to Australia as a child. Undergoing a sex change operation at the age of 28, he became a woman but was still desperately unhappy so she decided to stop her hormone treatments and live a genderless existence. "I haven't taken hormones for about 20 years, preferring my body and brain to be as they are naturally," it states on the 48-year-old's website.

While the British expat was content, zie (the new legally correct gender-neutral pronoun) had no legal documentation to reference when queried about the issue of sexuality, reports the Times of Malta. With a passport, stating 'female' yet having undergone a sex change operation to become a man, this was naturally confusing, not to mention embarrassing. So having applied to the New South Wales Registry of Births, Deaths and Marriages in Sydney asking for a 'Sex Not Specified' Recognition Certificate (similar to a birth certificate) finally May-Welby received the paperwork zie had been lobbying for, and the acceptance that went with it.

A spokesman for the UK's Gender Trust said they were fully in support of the decision by the Sydney authorities and hoped that others around the world would follow suit. "Many people like the idea of being genderless," they said, according to Britain's the Telegraph. While May-Welby is still coming to terms with the new found fame, zie remains hopeful of the future ahead for genderless people around the world: "It surprised me to be told I am the first to get such documentation, zie said, adding, "but I know I won't be the last."

[zannadyke]

...my next tattoo: a clothing label with the word DYKE on it. There! I have labeled myself one of the most vague things in the world!



I have also labeled myself "The Zan" in the past.

[Jett]

Because I was questioned twice about my "identity" spot in the side profile. Not that I have to explain but maybe this will clear things up.

As I said earlier in the thread labels feel confining to me, not that they can limit me, I just no longer have the same desire to present myself as or label myself in such a "defined" way as I have in "Stone Butch" for about a decade and a half. Maybe it's because we change and grow over time, and moreso how we view things change sometimes more than who we are.

No matter what I label my "identity" here, I still can strip down and rebuild engines, roof a house and am a hardcore motorcycle lovin' jeans and tee, boot wearin' queer female who loves mimosas and a bubble bath, yep... all my life... label no label, doesn't change a damn thing.

Besides there's too much crap all over defining this and that and drawing perimeters and I don't like living under the shadows others cast, I define myself. If anyone cares to know more they'll ask how I "identify". I'm just everyday people (well, maybe not quite but...)

If it's all about the identity labels for some here and not getting to know people as individuals, I don't know what to say except sorry bout yer bad luck.

Hell... I was just a hardcore dirt bike tomboy crushing on girls growing up and now maybe I'm just a full grown hardass tomboy who's attracted to femmes (of which I have one of my very own ;)). Now there's a fucked up label... hmmm who knows... maybe I like that one... but really, who cares?

Again I see them as important, needed, useful, celebration worthy and necessary for some especially in this community... to each their own, who ever you are just be who you need to be, just that for me I feel like I've out lived some of the usefulness of mine for myself. I still feel as connected to this community as ever, because of my experience and my life today and future.

That is all,
Metropolis

[lisa93]

Labels are completely a preference thing