Lesbian Cougar Video--funny or not?

[Soon]

One of my favourite gay bloggers, JoeMyGod, (http://www.joemygod.blogspot.com/) has posted this Second City video and I wanted reactions.

I posted a comment under the nic *rapeisnotfunny* on his site which lets you know my feelings on it.

I was wondering how others feel about it.

I am very disappointed that he would have this on his site and that Second City created it.

What do you think?



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[UofMfan]

I found it very offensive.

[MysticOceansFL]

I found it very offensive.




Yeah I agree it was pretty stupid

[Julie]

I found it to be tasteless and in the wrong hands, very damaging -- once again propagates the lecherous "straight seeking missile" stereotype.

[weatherboi]

hi HowSoonIsNow!!!

I watched it not surprised at all that a gay man would post this!!!
I have had many great relationships with many gay men in my life and I have always been aware that most of them were be misogynistic and could be cruel to women and transgendered people as well!!!
Hell I am on the outs with my roomie who happens to be my best cookie because he can't be real with himself about his transphobic and misogynistic views.



The video does not make me laugh!!!
It is one more video that kinda grosses me out and leaves me shaking my head!!!

[suebee]

They COULD have made a funny video.....but they didn't. If they'd put a man in the place of the "cougar lesbians" NOBODY would think it funny. I think the word "twat" describes the idiots who made this.

[MsMerrick]

I thought it kinda stupid? But not highly offensive. Second City is well known for .. satiric stuff. Just a bit off...
But I think that it wasn't men ,was kinda the point. Basically making fun of men.. Who wouldn't get it, I guess..
Maybe its just me, I found it so silly, that I saw it as more anti matter than not...

[EnderD_503]

They COULD have made a funny video.....but they didn't. If they'd put a man in the place of the "cougar lesbians" NOBODY would think it funny. I think the word "twat" describes the idiots who made this.

I really wish people would stop with the whole "well, if a man did it" spiel. It's like men and males have become the scapegoats to an extent, or females are allowed to be individuals and men must all be grouped into the same negative group. There are many comedies/comedy skits that are based around the very concept of a man in said cougar's place, and in which the man is placed in a negative light. More and more I feel like there's some kind of modified Animal Farm mantra: Female good. Male bad. Why not take this for what it is, instead of bringing in "if a man did it"? I don't mean to vent at you, suebee, this is more something that's been building up on several comments that have been made in various topics, that I just wanted to address here. I just wish this kind of thing would stop.

I think part of what is feeding into this is that with the whole Cougar Convention thing (that numerous popular celebrities have participated in), the spotlight is now on "cougars," and it has kind of reached a temporary level of being "cool." If we want to talk about double-standards, though, I think that if a male equivalent to the Cougar Convention existed, the mainstream and people in general would be in an uproar (at least, I cannot imagine such a thing being allowed to come to Toronto and attain the same public approval). When men participate in this kind of behaviour they're often considered "dirty" or "perverted."

Anyways, about the commercial for this show itself, I have mixed feelings. I admittedly don't even know what Second City is, or know very much about the show other than the clip you've posted here, HowSoonIsNow, but I did get a bit of a satiric vibe off of it. Jokes or comedies can make light of otherwise unpleasant, hypocritical or overall negative subjects for the exact purpose of pointing out their heinous/ridiculous nature. Take the movie Borat for example, or countless other similar films who make light of darker subject matter; not because they actually believe in the racist or sexist subject matter, but because they're highlighting its existence and hypocritical place in society. I wonder if perhaps this show aims to do the same.

And just to add about my response to the clip: I didn't find it either funny or overly offensive. Not something I'd care to watch.

[SuperFemme]

anyone taking advantage of a drunk person is gross.

sometimes too far is too far.

[Soft*Silver]

I reported it and I posted under my name..

"Where do you find any humour whatsoever in the sexual assault of drunken young women by predators? Be careful what you conjure...the images you have created and watch will linger in the culture and add to the pradigm that woman are just fuck holes. Well, the joke is on you..for it is your emasculated little erections not this video that are truly the pitiful jokes of our sick culture."

[SuperFemme]

:| :| :| :| :|

[Ebon]

I didn't find it offensive at all. I think that they were trying to be funny and missed it by a long shot. I could totally tell it was made by a gay guy too.

I see the world from a comedic perspective so I can understand the satire. Everyone gets made fun of and some people find some things distasteful. Shows make fun of cougars all the time and in this case it just happened to be lesbians.

[SuperFemme]

I understand comedy. I really do, but I also think this particular clip could be construed as anti-lesbian and anti-woman to some.

I may be alone in thinking that, but pieces that are denigrating to women aren't funny. To me.

In the same way that the tired old frat boy type jokes aren't funny to me.

OMG. I've turned into my mother.

[AtLast]

I didn't find it offensive at all. I think that they were trying to be funny and missed it by a long shot. I could totally tell it was made by a gay guy too.
I see the world from a comedic perspective so I can understand the satire. Everyone gets made fun of and some people find some things distasteful. Shows make fun of cougars all the time and in this case it just happened to be lesbians.

After so many years of very offensive posters, etc. by gay men at Dyke Marches, I really am tired of many of them putting out things like this.

Sure, some people can pull this off and there can be commedy (and well done satire) in just about everything, but this ain't it.

[BullDog]

No I don't think this is funny. Taking advantage of someone young and drunk- that's supposed to be funny?

Also why is it that lesbians seem to be open season for other queers to make fun of?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yeah, images of drunk girls and someone not caring that they are drunk comedy or not is oogey for me...

I did not find it to be funny.

Maybe it's a mom thing I dunno

[SuperFemme]

Yeah, images of drunk girls and someone not caring that they are drunk comedy or not is oogey for me...

I did not find it to be funny.

Maybe it's a mom thing I dunno

not to mention the image of lesbians as predators of young people.

we already have had real life consequences for that belief when the religious right takes away our civil rights by scaring the masses into believing that we ARE predators recruiting their young.

ugh.

[NJFemmie]

I didn't find it amusing.

[Heart]

Replacing 20-something "frat boys" with 40-something "lesbian cougars," and thinking it's satire is really pretty pathetic. I would expect more from Second City.

It's not even the fact that the dykes are made up to look ugly is that stereotypical lesbian manner or that they use a word like "twat," it's that whomever made this so clearly knows nothing about lesbian culture. That's why its not funny.

For christ fucking sake, a lesbian cougar would not go after a drunk straight college girl. A lesbian cougar would go after a hot young packing butch go-go dancer.

;)

ETA: As for the predator thing -- I get why that's disturbing, but I don't think anyone in the clip is supposed to be underage. Young does not equate to child or minor. Let's remember that people with large age differences DO engage in consensual relationships. Part of the problem with the whole "cougar" thing is that it is so totally age-ist - on both ends of the spectrum.

[EnderD_503]

I reported it and I posted under my name..

"Where do you find any humour whatsoever in the sexual assault of drunken young women by predators? Be careful what you conjure...the images you have created and watch will linger in the culture and add to the pradigm that woman are just fuck holes. Well, the joke is on you..for it is your emasculated little erections not this video that are truly the pitiful jokes of our sick culture."

Is this kind of thing really necessary? Why throw in emasculating comments like this? Even if you believe the image is perpetuating something you do not support, stooping to what you believe to be a lower level is not the way to go about changing anything, imo. It perpetuates what appears to be the entire qualm you have with the video. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as they say.

I understand comedy. I really do, but I also think this particular clip could be construed as anti-lesbian and anti-woman to some.

I may be alone in thinking that, but pieces that are denigrating to women aren't funny. To me.

In the same way that the tired old frat boy type jokes aren't funny to me.

OMG. I've turned into my mother.

All satire can be misconstrued as anti- whatever the subject matter happens to be. In some ways, that is part of the reflective point of satire. How many people do you think watched Borat and thought Sacha Baron Cohen was actually perpetuating sexism, racism, homophobia among other subjects he touched upon? The same has happened with nearly every satiric work that has ever come out, and it is because people fail to see the purpose of satire: to hold a mirror up to society, to overexaggerate and therefore make more visible its blatant hypocrisy.

And even if it was not meant as a satire by the original creator (which we still don't know yet, as far as I've seen), there is also the case of inadvertant satire that can function just as well toward that aim. Why not use it in such a manner, consequently stripping it of the power with which you believe it to be endowed?

For those interested, Slavoj Zizek actually talks about how such "jokes" or satires function, and may explain better than I currently am. It's a long clip and I understand most people don't want to get into the whole thing, but his overview of the example joke he uses starts at around 37:00 for those interested (the joke is used to support other arguments in the debate, but the whole debate does not centre around the use of jokes/satire as a tool toward illuminating social hypocrisy, so I don't want anyone to think the whole thing is about such jokes).

_GD69Cc20rw

[Jesse]

I thought it was a waste of space myself. It did not speak of intelligence, nor talent and reeked of ignorance and abuse.

[Ebon]

Is this kind of thing really necessary? Why throw in emasculating comments like this? Even if you believe the image is perpetuating something you do not support, stooping to what you believe to be a lower level is not the way to go about changing anything, imo. It perpetuates what appears to be the entire qualm you have with the video. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as they say.



All satire can be misconstrued as anti- whatever the subject matter happens to be. In some ways, that is part of the reflective point of satire. How many people do you think watched Borat and thought Sacha Baron Cohen was actually perpetuating sexism, racism, homophobia among other subjects he touched upon? The same has happened with nearly every satiric work that has ever come out, and it is because people fail to see the purpose of satire: to hold a mirror up to society, to overexaggerate and therefore make more visible its blatant hypocrisy.

And even if it was not meant as a satire by the original creator (which we still don't know yet, as far as I've seen), there is also the case of inadvertant satire that can function just as well toward that aim. Why not use it in such a manner, consequently stripping it of the power with which you believe it to be endowed?

For those interested, Slavoj Zizek actually talks about how such "jokes" or satires function, and may explain better than I currently am. It's a long clip and I understand most people don't want to get into the whole thing, but his overview of the example joke he uses starts at around 37:00 for those interested (the joke is used to support other arguments in the debate, but the whole debate does not centre around the use of jokes/satire as a tool toward illuminating social hypocrisy, so I don't want anyone to think the whole thing is about such jokes).

_GD69Cc20rw

I absolutely agree.

[BullDog]

Is this kind of thing really necessary? Why throw in emasculating comments like this? Even if you believe the image is perpetuating something you do not support, stooping to what you believe to be a lower level is not the way to go about changing anything, imo. It perpetuates what appears to be the entire qualm you have with the video. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as they say.



All satire can be misconstrued as anti- whatever the subject matter happens to be. In some ways, that is part of the reflective point of satire. How many people do you think watched Borat and thought Sacha Baron Cohen was actually perpetuating sexism, racism, homophobia among other subjects he touched upon? The same has happened with nearly every satiric work that has ever come out, and it is because people fail to see the purpose of satire: to hold a mirror up to society, to overexaggerate and therefore make more visible its blatant hypocrisy.

And even if it was not meant as a satire by the original creator (which we still don't know yet, as far as I've seen), there is also the case of inadvertant satire that can function just as well toward that aim. Why not use it in such a manner, consequently stripping it of the power with which you believe it to be endowed?

For those interested, Slavoj Zizek actually talks about how such "jokes" or satires function, and may explain better than I currently am. It's a long clip and I understand most people don't want to get into the whole thing, but his overview of the example joke he uses starts at around 37:00 for those interested (the joke is used to support other arguments in the debate, but the whole debate does not centre around the use of jokes/satire as a tool toward illuminating social hypocrisy, so I don't want anyone to think the whole thing is about such jokes).

_GD69Cc20rw

In order to make good satire you need to know your subject material. These people know nothing about lesbians- it's obvious.

[AtLast]

Replacing 20-something "frat boys" with 40-something "lesbian cougars," and thinking it's satire is really pretty pathetic. I would expect more from Second City.

It's not even the fact that the dykes are made up to look ugly is that stereotypical lesbian manner or that they use a word like "twat," it's that whomever made this so clearly knows nothing about lesbian culture. That's why its not funny.

For christ fucking sake, a lesbian cougar would not go after a drunk straight college girl. A lesbian cougar would go after a hot young packing butch go-go dancer.

;)

ETA: As for the predator thing -- I get why that's disturbing, but I don't think anyone in the clip is supposed to be underage. Young does not equate to child or minor. Let's remember that people with large age differences DO engage in consensual relationships. Part of the problem with the whole "cougar" thing is that it is so totally age-ist - on both ends of the spectrum.

LMAO!!- the packing butch go-go dancer! Good point!

And yes about ageism.... personally, I am uncomfortable with dating someone a lot younger than myself (but I know not to say never about anything), but, absolutely people have adult consensual relationships with many years between them. Its the whole negative judgement thang that bothers me.

[TenderKnight]

OK, maybe this is another one of those times that I need to shut up and listen.. But I wasn't really offended by this video and though it didn't make me laugh, it did get a snort from me.. A "really??" snort.. But then, I'm a sick fucker and find that this is more a play to the stereotype that everyone see's as lesbians then anything else.. Of course, I love Dave Chapel and sometimes I find his stuff pretty damned offensive, but still funny, even if it's wrong..

I don't know.. Again, maybe this is one of those moments when I'm just not seeing the bigger picture..

-Tony

[SuperFemme]

Ender - I get satire. I still didn't like it. I didn't watch Borat, it didn't seem interesting to me.

Which is ok, I have no problem with anyone who does, it's just not for me for the reasons that I mentioned.

[EnderD_503]

In order to make good satire you need to know your subject material. These people know nothing about lesbians- it's obvious.

Except you seem to be missing the point of the satire. The satire itself is not against lesbians, and, therefore, does not need to pretend to show an accurate portrayal of lesbians. The satire, in this case, would be a method of mocking the popular portrayal of lesbians, which is something it does very well. Many here who disagree with me have even made the point that this reflects what seems to be a culture of misrepresenting lesbians for whatever purpose...which would be the whole point of the satire.

The satire does not attempt to show the accurate portrayal of lesbians, because lesbians (and therefore the criticism of lesbians) are not its target. Those who portray lesbians in such a fashion are the target of the satire, and so their misinformed portrayal of lesbians takes the forefront. This, if it were meant as a satire, is classic satiric method. I bold this, because, to me, is the point, and I really don't see how accurate portrayal of lesbians would actually help this be a good satiric work. EDIT: In fact, it would defeat its purpose as a satire.

[BullDog]

Except you seem to be missing the point of the satire. The satire itself is not against lesbians, and, therefore, does not need to pretend to show an accurate portrayal of lesbians. The satire, in this case, would be a method of mocking the popular portrayal of lesbians, which is something it does very well. Many here who disagree with me have even made the point that this reflects what seems to be a culture of misrepresenting lesbians for whatever purpose...which would be the whole point of the satire.

The satire does not attempt to show the accurate portrayal of lesbians, because lesbians (and therefore the criticism of lesbians) are not its target. Those who portray lesbians in such a fashion are the target of the satire, and so their misinformed portrayal of lesbians takes the forefront. This, if it were meant as a satire, is classic satiric method. I bold this, because, to me, is the point, and I really don't see how accurate portrayal of lesbians would actually help this be a good satiric work.

Ender I'm a lesbian. Are you? I find it quite irritating that you think you can tell me I'm missing the point.

Lesbian stereotypes are damaging. We've spent months trying to discuss that here. This is irritating.

[suebee]

Maybe they meant to satirize men. Or maybe not. Who cares. Taking advantage of young drunk women - not so funny. At the beginning of the video I thought it had the potential to be hilarious. But they missed the mark. Anybody who finds it a funny satire - that's fine, to each his own. . I just think they missed the mark this try. If I was familiar with the folks that made it maybe I'd be able to say whether it was typical of their sense of humour or not. But as I've already said - taking advangage of a drunk girl is disgusting, and it lost any comedic potential as soon as that happened.

One's sense of comedy is a very personal thing, and the best comedy troupes stretch the limit of what is funny. I wouldn't go as far as to report a video like this. But neither would I be tempted to go out and look for more of them.

[EnderD_503]

Ender I'm a lesbian. Are you? I find it quite irritating that you think you can tell me I'm missing the point.

Lesbian stereotypes are damaging. We've spent months trying to discuss that here. This is irritating.

This is equally irritating for me, because in many respects what you are saying is the entire point of my post.

The satire attempts to highlight the misrepresentations of lesbians in popular contemporary culture. If, again, it was meant as a satire, then it is trying to highlight the fact that those stereotypes still exist and is actually ridiculing their existence.

For example, in Borat, Borat (Cohen, the actor/director, himself is Jewish) says some very anti-semitic things. People claim that it propagates anti-semitism, but that is not the point of the satire. The point is to highlight the continued existance of anti-semitism and, furthermore, to highlight society's hypocrisy; not only because anti-semitism continues to exist, but because so many who laugh at Borat's jokes have likely made anti-semitic comments themselves. It mocks the continued hypocrisy of the populace who continues to perpetuate these misrepresentations and stereotypes.

[BullDog]

This is equally irritating for me, because in many respects what you are saying is the entire point of my post.

The satire attempts to highlight the misrepresentations of lesbians in popular contemporary culture. If, again, it was meant as a satire, then it is trying to highlight the fact that those stereotypes still exist and is actually ridiculing their existence.

For example, in Borat, Borat (Cohen, the actor/director, himself is Jewish) says some very anti-semitic things. People claim that it propagates anti-semitism, but that is not the point of the satire. The point is to highlight the continued existance of anti-semitism and, furthermore, to highlight society's hypocrisy; not only because anti-semitism continues to exist, but because so many who laugh at Borat's jokes have likely made anti-semitic comments themselves. It mocks the continued hypocrisy of the populace who continues to perpetuate these misrepresentations and stereotypes.

I'm done. I don't need you to educate me on satire- particularly when it comes to lesbians.

The video isn't funny to me. The end.

[EnderD_503]

I'm done. I don't need you to educate me on satire- particularly when it comes to lesbians.

The video isn't funny to me. The end.

If you think I'm wrong, explain why instead of telling me not to "educate" you on satire (if you think I'm wrong on it, then by all means feel free to give me its definition according to you), especially when it comes to lesbians (as though satire takes on a different form depending on the group), instead of dismissing me for an unknown reason. I fail to see what is so upsetting when such satire (whether intended or not) may actually criticise popular stereotypes. Why become offended by it when it can be used for so much more?

As for the video not being funny to you, again, very good...because that may very well not be its point. Again, satire: putting a mirror up in front of society.

[Diva]

Ok....what to say, what to say......

I didn't find it funny. Just like I don't find women who flash their drunken breasts at Mardi Gras funny, either. Yeah....for beads? Or frat boys whose goal it is to become so inebriated they do the ridiculous things they do.

That being said, I'm rather ambivalent about it (the video), as I know what is funny to some, won't be to others. And we can pick and choose about what we become enraged over, yes?

Additionally, I'm beginning to feel my age as I find the word 'cougar' more bothersome to me as the years go by....but that's another thread.

[Ebon]

Most satires will always be offensive to someone. I find that when people get the most offended is when they feel like what is being said is true about them or it's something that they don't want to deal with. It was a lame attempt at satire. I don't think that they were saying that lesbians or gay people as a whole are predators. Most of the lesbians that I know would never try to pick up a drunk college girl. Some of them would. Everything is on a person by person basis including what some people find funny and what others find offensive. I've seen things that were far worse than this video, like that dumb girl on The View saying that older women becomes lesbians because they "Couldn't get a man." That is a hell of a lot more dangerous than this stupid video. That's all in my own opinion of course.

:poc-biggrin:

[The_Lady_Snow]

Most satires will always be offensive to someone. I find that when people get the most offended is when they feel like what is being said is true about them or it's something that they don't want to deal with. It was a lame attempt at satire. I don't think that they were saying that lesbians or gay people as a whole are predators. Most of the lesbians that I know would never try to pick up a drunk college girl. Some of them would. Everything is on a person by person basis including what some people find funny and what others find offensive. I've seen things that were far worse than this video, like that dumb girl on The View saying that older women becomes lesbians because they "Couldn't get a man." That is a hell of a lot more dangerous than this stupid video. That's all in my own opinion of course.

:poc-biggrin:

I would like to address the above in red.

Help me understand please. I find it offensive and downright ugly to show young drunk girls being taken advantage of. It's not because I have some past issue or because I don't want to look in the mirror, it's because it DOES happen and young women are raped and hurt cause someone thought it funny to spike their drink or get them all drunk so they can get in their pants.

Cause frankly I am trying here I see no humor in that, lesbians or not

[Soft*Silver]

wait..let me mull this over...its ok for them to be satiracal about lesbians, cougars, predation, etc but its wrong for me to be offended?

and FYI, HOW I said it is perfectly in line with how they will understand it. It takes the politeness out of the discourse. When it comes to rape, I dont need to be polite.

I am fascinated that you think you can come in and ask me was this really necessary. Obviously. Or I wouldnt have said it...


[QUOTE=EnderD_503;166381]Is this kind of thing really necessary? Why throw in emasculating comments like this? Even if you believe the image is perpetuating something you do not support, stooping to what you believe to be a lower level is not the way to go about changing anything, imo. It perpetuates what appears to be the entire qualm you have with the video. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as they say.

[BullDog]

I would like to address the above in red.

Help me understand please. I find it offensive and downright ugly to show young drunk girls being taken advantage of. It's not because I have some past issue or because I don't want to look in the mirror, it's because it DOES happen and young women are raped and hurt cause someone thought it funny to spike their drink or get them all drunk so they can get in their pants.

Cause frankly I am trying here I see no humor in that, lesbians or not

Yes and how many of these rapes are perpetuated by lesbians? The main point is that young women get raped and that is definitely not funny. It is also true that lesbians are doing very little, if any, of it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I got it. I also love very dark english humour that I think many people here would find offinsive, whereas in england it's called satire + irony.

it's ok not to get it.

However, there is one thing that satire and satire with irony needs and that's an audience that gets it or you'll get the dichotomy of 1) people thinking you are promoting what you are satirising 2) people thinking you are making fun (taking the piss is not really an american accepted tradition in certain political ways) in a way that isn't funny.

I for one LOVED Bruno, I nearly wet myself.
And Nighty Night, a very black humour satire, where in one scene this very screwed up woman is trying to seduce a 11 year old kid who clearly wants nothing to do with her, has no idea what she's talking about and is just playing his video game. In another she gets sperm off her ex boyfriend, it's accidently dropped in someone's dinner and she then demands that her female gimp shove the whole dinner up her twat while she hangs upside down in a closet.



I personally thought this clip was satire. Unfortunately, I also thought it wasn't all that expertly written. it lost it's mark. I didn't really find it offensive, I understood the double layer and that they were taking the piss. Just thought it was a bit shoddy and needed re-writing.

[Soft*Silver]

what happened to the link to the video?

[Ebon]

I would like to address the above in red.

Help me understand please. I find it offensive and downright ugly to show young drunk girls being taken advantage of. It's not because I have some past issue or because I don't want to look in the mirror, it's because it DOES happen and young women are raped and hurt cause someone thought it funny to spike their drink or get them all drunk so they can get in their pants.

Cause frankly I am trying here I see no humor in that, lesbians or not

*sigh* My post wasn't about the young drunk girl getting taken advantage of it was about the whole lesbians being made fun of thing. If you really knew me, you would know that I don't play that shit either but I don't think that was the video's focus it was to make fun of cougars that just so happen to be lesbians.

[NJFemmie]

Most satires will always be offensive to someone. I find that when people get the most offended is when they feel like what is being said is true about them or it's something that they don't want to deal with.
:poc-biggrin:


I think I have a good sense of humor and I happen to love satire, but I did not find this amusing one bit. I found it offensive simply because it's offensive, not because I'm guilty of it or have some sort of denial on the subject. Your statement is um, dangerous to imply regarding the general public.

[The_Lady_Snow]

*sigh* My post wasn't about the young drunk girl getting taken advantage of it was about the whole lesbians being made fun of thing. If you really knew me, you would know that I don't play that shit either but I don't think that was the video's focus it was to make fun of cougars that just so happen to be lesbians.


Thank you so much for taking the time to clarify this Organic, we see it differently and that's cool.

Thank you again for taking the time to explain :)

[Ebon]

I think I have a good sense of humor and I happen to love satire, but I did not find this amusing one bit. I found it offensive simply because it's offensive, not because I'm guilty of it or have some sort of denial on the subject. Your statement is um, dangerous to imply regarding the general public.

You are correct. I can see how that would be offensive. In my head I was thinking of it as a a homophobic person that is afraid of their own feelings but it doesn't apply to this. My bad.

[BullDog]

In my head, it breaks down like this:


Lesbians portrayed as unattractive stereotypes
Lesbians portrayed as desperate for sex
Lesbians portrayed as sexual predators
Lesbians portrayed as only being able to obtain sex from the drunkenly impaired


And then:


Young women being treated as sexual playthings
Young women being preyed upon
Young women "deserving" what they get because they got drunk
Young women being coerced (forced) and being mocked for it


I understand satire. I do. And irony and sarcasm as well. The video reeks to me of unbridled sexism, misogyny, agism and has an unhealthy undercurrent of "She asked for it" and "She deserves what she gets".

Oddly, and probably because I'm a mother, the portrayal of the young women bothered me a little bit more. Because, while I do not have a daughter, I really believe that STILL we often do not raise our women to value themselves and know their worth in this world beyond being playthings and fucktoys. If you want to be a plaything or a fucktoy, fine, but be in control of it and choose that role, don't default to it or have it chosen for you.

That's a good point about the college girls. They are portrayed as fucktoys. They are drunk and to be fucked by whomever (even older lesbians). That's actually probably the most misogynist thing in the whole video- more so than than the lesbian stereotypes.

[Gayla]

Joe has been on my shit list for 2 months and a day. I'm not the least bit surprised he posted this.

[EnderD_503]

wait..let me mull this over...its ok for them to be satiracal about lesbians, cougars, predation, etc but its wrong for me to be offended?

Except it wasn't really a satire about lesbians, cougars or predation. If this is, in fact, a satirical work (and even so, could easily be transformed into something it was not intended to be), then it is not being satirical about lesbians, cougars and predation, but about those who perpetuate misrepresentations and stereotypes. It does not accurately represent lesbians, because it may very well not mean to, if, in fact, it is a satire highlight the existence of misrepresentation and stereotypes...I repeat: the target is not lesbians in such a case. I keep bolding this because the responses to what I've written continued to be offended responses that do not correlate at all with what I've actually written.

and FYI, HOW I said it is perfectly in line with how they will understand it. It takes the politeness out of the discourse. When it comes to rape, I dont need to be polite.

I am fascinated that you think you can come in and ask me was this really necessary. Obviously. Or I wouldnt have said it...

If it was necessary for you, then what exactly do you think continuing the cycle achieves? I am not talking about politeness. I am talking about perpetuating a certain type of behaviour: stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. If you want to be rude, go ahead, but why do you see fit to bring one's sex into the equation? What do you achieve beyond venting your own anger? It certainly doesn't change anything. If we ever want this kind of thing to stop, it should start with us.

[BullDog]

Except it wasn't really a satire about lesbians, cougars or predation. If this is, in fact, a satirical work (and even so, could easily be transformed into something it was not intended to be), then it is not being satirical about lesbians, cougars and predation, but about those who perpetuate misrepresentations and stereotypes. It does not accurately represent lesbians, because it may very well not mean to, if, in fact, it is a satire highlight the existence of misrepresentation and stereotypes...I repeat: the target is not lesbians in such a case. I keep bolding this because the responses to what I've written continued to be offended responses that do not correlate at all with what I've actually written.



If it was necessary for you, then what exactly do you think continuing the cycle achieves? I am not talking about politeness. I am talking about perpetuating a certain type of behaviour: stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. If you want to be rude, go ahead, but why do you see fit to bring one's sex into the equation? What do you achieve beyond venting your own anger? It certainly doesn't change anything. If we ever want this kind of thing to stop, it should start with us.

So you see nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women (among other things) but chastize someone that you think is doing that here?

[Soft*Silver]

you said "stripping away someone's dignity as a woman/man for the purpose of humiliating them simply because you do not agree with them for whatever reason. "

wait...are you even suggesting I am doing this because I simply dont agree with them? I dont agree with the catholic church on their abortion stand. I dont publicly rebuke them...

I publicly rebuke this video because someone somewhere has to say to whoever is watching this "OH MY F&#$&@*# GOD THIS IS NOT EVEN FUNNY!!!!!"

and why? Because there are impressionable minds out there that are on overkill from the onslaught of horrid examples of "isms" that are passed around in our culture under the guise of humour...

[TenderKnight]

I have been reading this thread and I just want to post my opinion here.. (again)

I just want to state that I don't find rape amusing. I don't find the fact that older lesbians are being protrayed as predators funny.. That being said, when I was just coming out, I did have a 42 year old lesbian hit on me and then she played me like a drum, I was 18.. Some do it, not all. THAT being said..

I don't think that anyone here thinks that this video is truthful, I think that some folks got it and some folks didn't.. I agree with honeybarbara, it could have been written a LOT better and it missed the mark.. *shrugs* I guess I just have a fear here that this is hitting close to home for a lot of folks, and I can also see that some of the past "battles" can be seen as rearing up again here.

I am not a lesbian and I ID as male. Maybe this can be seen as a reason of why I'm not offended? I don't know.. All I can speak from is from where I am coming from.. I also want to say that I'm not going to spread this video around because it CAN show people that have no clue what lesbians are about (that sounds like lesbians have an agenda, they don't, we're all humans here), and that it can become something REALLY ugly very quickly..

OK, I'm done.. Thank you all for posting here.. I don't see a right or a wrong, just people that find diffrent things funny or offensive.

-Tony

[Soft*Silver]

omg...TK's post just made me realize why this video is so offensive to me.

when I was 16, my driver's ed teacher preyed on me.

god I didnt put two and two together until now...

this is SOO not funny NOW...

[EnderD_503]

So you see nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women (among other things) but chastize someone that you think is doing that here?

I get the feeling you aren't actually reading what I've written when you accuse me of "seeing nothing wrong with a video that strips away the dignity of women." If this is a satire, and I have good reason to believe it is, it is not attempting to strip women of their dignity (therefore, it is not about me making light of women or men's dignities). In fact, it is attempting to do the exact contrary by highlighting the existence of this tendency (of stripping women of their dignity) in society. Just because something displays a certain event does not mean it desires to perpetuate it. It can very well be a commentary on it, and where we are as a society.

For example, in Voltaire's Candide you have Pangloss who preaches theodicy, and no matter what ridiculously violent and terrible things happen to Candide and his party, Pangloss continues to claim that it is "the best of all possible outcomes." Is it because Voltaire supports Leibnitz's philosophy? No! It is entirely to the contrary: he stages theodicy in the forefront precisely because he disagrees with it and perceives it as a danger to society (thus allowing for little upwards class movement, since it supports the notion that the lower classes should stay where they because their current station is the "best of all possible worlds.") There are horrible scenes of rape, dismemberment and so on that are made light of, and not because Voltaire supports such things, but precisely because he does not. The violent and horrific things that occur to the party, and the fact that it is being made light of is the contrast. The overexaggeration of horrific events is needed in order to get the author's real point across.

I'm not claiming the creator of this video is anywhere near approaching the genius of Voltaire, but it appears that he is taking a similar approach in attempting to ridicule something by placing it in the forefront. And that something is not lesbians, but the stereotypes surrounding them that are commonly used in popular culture. It "makes light of" in order to make people aware of what they themselves may very well be perpetuating. Could it have been better written? Yes, but just because the creator was not a particularly gifted writer is not reason to claim that he was attempting to demean women, when that doesn't appear to have been the intention.

To use the Borat example again: Sacha Baron Cohen is not demeaning or ridiculing Jews when his character, Borat, makes anti-semitic comments. He is trying to make people aware and accountable for what continues to occur within modern society. The fact that he takes the role of an "ignorant Kazakh" even further plays into American perspectives on non-western nations, when Americans themselves are guilty of precisely the same behaviour.

As for my comments to softness, please explain to me what such comments achieve and why it is ever right to attempt to humiliate someone because of their sex/gender/race/ethnicity/age etc.? What does it achieve? If you have a logical argument against someone then state it. Don't turn it into an emotional maelstrom that may very well just get otherwise important issues ignored. I haven't seen anyone explain that to me yet. And since when is the whole eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth method ever effective in getting your message across in a logical and coherent manner?

[imperfect_cupcake]

In my head, it breaks down like this:


Lesbians portrayed as unattractive stereotypes
Lesbians portrayed as desperate for sex
Lesbians portrayed as sexual predators
Lesbians portrayed as only being able to obtain sex from the drunkenly impaired


And then:


Young women being treated as sexual playthings
Young women being preyed upon
Young women "deserving" what they get because they got drunk
Young women being coerced (forced) and being mocked for it


I understand satire. I do. And irony and sarcasm as well. The video reeks to me of unbridled sexism, misogyny, agism and has an unhealthy undercurrent of "She asked for it" and "She deserves what she gets".

Oddly, and probably because I'm a mother, the portrayal of the young women bothered me a little bit more. Because, while I do not have a daughter, I really believe that STILL we often do not raise our women to value themselves and know their worth in this world beyond being playthings and fucktoys. If you want to be a plaything or a fucktoy, fine, but be in control of it and choose that role, don't default to it or have it chosen for you.

yeah but june, if I showed you Nighty Night, you could also say

"mentally unwell welsh people should never be gimps"
"it's not fun to be vaginally abused by a fish - and a tuna at that - against your will by an older woman"
"someone trying to seduce an 11 year old boy is very offensive - that's a pedo"
"that women is representing all older women who are sexually promiscuous and makeing us all into serial killers"

I could go on. the difference is Nightly Night is incredibly well written so the joke is actually funny rather than a poorly written piece of satire that obviously didn't meet it's mark and wound up offending tons of people in it's failing.

I personally think if it had been well written, it could have been hilarious. It wasn't. So it sucked and looked offensive.

[BullDog]

Ender I am not going to argue with you about satire.

See June's post. I don't appreciate a twenty something year old male trying to tell someone who has been a lesbian for over 30 years (that would be me) how I should interpret this video. You have a lot to learn about sexism and misogyny.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So you can't see how it promotes and makes light of predatory behaviour against women?

*I* and I get this is me and not everyone else can't get past the oogieness of watching someone sober rub all over a drunk girl, that shit isn't funny at ALL.

I don't know if cause I have daughters and I hear it happens, or because I want to scream when I see women being demeaned and dismissed and ffs ridiculed for the sake of a ha ha.

It really really makes me want to scream when I see this at anytime.

I may be a prude:|

[imperfect_cupcake]

Oh I dunno... I've been raped while drunk a few times and I get that they aren't promoting it. You aren't supposed to emulate what you satirise.

*shrug*

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess I am to sensitive about it to find it funny.

No sense in beating a dead horse everyone has their opinion

Thanks for the dialogues!

[EnderD_503]

June, thank you for you response. I really appreciate it. I hope you don't mind if I respond in turn.

I want to make clear that I am not attempting to tell anyone how to think, but, instead, attempting to prompt people to think beyond their initial emotional reaction. I do not think this is a great work of satire, but I also realise that the author is likely not actually trying to take a swipe at lesbians or degrade women in any way. In fact, it seems the contrary is the point. That is what I'm trying to get through, and which I feel is contuously ignored. If people truly understand what satire is and how this video may very well be attempting to achieve it, then why not acknowledge that instead of calling the creator out on all sorts of things that don't appear to be true?

I also want to make clear that I am not telling anyone to lighten up (in fact, the point of the satire may very well be for society to get serious). In your final paragraph you seem to imply, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this video was funny to me and that I thought it was a good example of satire. This is incorrect, and, in fact, I stated earlier that I did not believe the video to be particularly funny. Additionally, the purpose of a satire that deals with such dark subject matter is not necessary to be "funny-ha-ha," but to point out that darkness by overexaggerating it, and yes, sometimes making light of the horrific. Believe it or not, such works and the contrast they present have been pivotal in changing social perspectives.

I am not telling people not to be angry, but to try and think past that initial anger. I have been insulted countless times in my life by a variety of things until I began to ask myself why I felt anger and insult, and what that anger actually achieves. Is it helping me attain my end to be insulted? I have found it effective to actually analyse the situation instead of lashing out in anger. I think such an approach is a good route to take if we wish to change society and it's perspectives on sex/gender. The more one continues on the path to logical debate and thought, the more irrational hatred and discrimination crumble. I don't believe we defeat such discrimination or humiliation by participating in it ourselves. I think this approach could be really beneficial to this community, and I'm sorry if that seems like an attack. I truly believe that it is a good idea to look inward as well as outward, and not only for things that we typically look for or recognise.

If for some reason the moderators don't feel my continued participation in this thread is desireable, I would be more than happy to make my own thread that addresses the issue. If my words are not desireable on this forum, then, well, I guess I'll just have to stick to my own writing. But I thoroughly believe that without self-criticism we threaten to become exactly that which we despise.

My thanks again, June. My additional thanks to all those who have participated in this discussion with me.

- Ender

Ender - I disagree with you on this, and while we don't know each other, I do want to preface this by saying that I often really enjoy your posts and your way of engaging and talking about things. However, I think it's important to think about why this may not affect you, personally in the same way as some of us.

If Female and/or Lesbian do not resonate with you in the same way, you may not relate to things visually or even viscerally in the same way that those of us who do very much identify as women and Lesbians do.

"Ones Sex" is already in the equation because the actual video is very sexually charged. There is coersive sexual intent in that video. No one is being emasculated in that video, and frankly, I think it is a womans right, and a Lesbians right to respond in anger if that's what she is feeling to the makers of the video. To do otherwise would seem to be the same thing as "Sitting down and shutting up" And I call bullshit on that. If they have the right to make a mockery of women and Lesbians, then they/we/us have a right also to express our anger, outrage or even ambivalence in any way we choose to do so.

I do not appreciate someone who is not female or woman ID'd coming in here and trying to tell those who are how they should feel. It smacks of telling "us" to lighten the fuck up. And that's not your place. The OP asked how we feel about it, and we are saying it. That doesn't mean you don't get to have an opinion, of course. If you think it's funny, or the best goddamn piece of satire you've seen in a long time, then say that. But on a website such as this, be prepared for pushback. :)

And I'm not mad, I'm vehement here.

June

[BullDog]

I just want to say that I don't think Enders age is relevant anymore than mine is. I don't care for agism in either direction, having now, at my age been a victim of both.

"You're too young to know"

Is the same to me as:

"What do you know? You're old"

Well June I disagree. I think my years of experience count for something.

[Corkey]

I think it's disgusting.

[BullDog]

Ender it doesn't matter whether the video makers intended to portray women in a negative light or not. Their intent very well may have been satire and they missed the mark.

However, it's the end product that matters- not their intent. They don't appear to know enough about lesbians or sexism or misogyny to effectively pull it off, and the end product is just degrading and insulting.

College frat boys are the ones that mostly rape college girls at parties where there has been lots of alcohol. Inserting an older lesbian for a frat boy doesn't make any sense and I fail to see how this is satire.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I guess I am to sensitive about it to find it funny.

No sense in beating a dead horse everyone has their opinion

Thanks for the dialogues!

naw, I don't think you are too sensative at all. I think it's one of those cubes that you can look at both ways.

I do honestly understand people's points. And I can see why - if you perceive satire that way, it's very fuckin unfunny. But it's my understanding that the joke is laughing at the uncomfortable bigotry/moronic behaviour of those being satirised. Sort of like laughing at someone saying something utterly unacceptable.

If you don't ever do that, it's hard to find some kinds of layerd satire funny. especially crappy satire that tries to be more than it's able. I really don't think the absurdity was written into it well enough for people to pick up on. like I said, really badly written. It fell totally flat.

oh well.

[BullDog]

I do too, Jules, and I've got a few years on you, even. But I also don't think we should disregard the opinions of others based on age even if we don't agree with them.

I learn things from younger folks all the time, and I hope that I sometimes return the favor.

I'm a little sensitive on age/viability stuff right now, pardon the de-rail.

--June (Still NOT Moderating!)

It wasn't a sweeping indictment on all younger people. Just this particular situation. I learn a lot from younger people too.

Edit: Yes June I do understand you are not moderating. We are only in semi disagreement on one small point. I have appreciated your posts here.

[Softhearted]

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

[imperfect_cupcake]

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

I think it would have appeared far more american style college humour and it would have been fairly obvious. It was definitely satire.

[Ebon]

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

Then someone's ass is gonna get whipped.

[SuperFemme]

second city is all about satire. no question there.

[EnderD_503]

Ender it doesn't matter whether the video makers intended to portray women in a negative light or not. Their intent very well may have been satire and they missed the mark.

However, it's the end product that matters- not their intent. They don't appear to know enough about lesbians or sexism or misogyny to effectively pull it off, and the end product is just degrading and insulting.

College frat boys are the ones that mostly rape college girls at parties where there has been lots of alcohol. Inserting an older lesbian for a frat boy doesn't make any sense and I fail to see how this is satire.

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

[Ebon]

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I agree. Everyone comes from a different walk in life that brings all kinds of knowledge to the table.

[Cyclopea]

What if it was not intended as a satire by the authors???

Same group that put this piece of crap out a few weeks ago:

FcI8NPN-nxc

[BullDog]

I have a question: how can you ascertain whether or not they have enough information about lesbians, sexism or misogyny if the point of the satire was to appear ignorant of all of the above? When feigned ignorance is what makes it satirical?

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.

Anyways, I can see we are going in circles, so I won't continue to the press the point.

On a side note, I don't find my age to be a valid argument against me, and I don't feel that I should be dismissed simply because I happen to be younger. If society were forever doing this, no new ideas would ever be brought into the mainstream. I am not claiming to be some kind of young 20-something genius, just that I can't see any logical justification whatever to dismissing me as ignorant because of my age. If you believe my age somehow does come into play, please explain exactly how. I'd be more than happy to hear your reasoning.

I don't understand why you are defending a lame piece of satire and ignoring the messages it is sending about women. Go read the comments on YouTube- that's where they distribute their videos. See if their "satiric" message is getting through or whether you see a bunch of misogynist, homophobic comments.

Satire- know your audience, know your subject material. Otherwise you are going to cause way more harm than good so don't even fucking bother, especially if it's going to reinforce violence against women and horrible stereotypes.

How do I know they don't know enough- I am a lesbian. It's obvious. I wouldn't be telling a transman, hey you are not getting the point of this hilarious piece of satire made by non-trans people. They are mocking the transphobes not trans people, really honest.

As to your age, you don't seem to taken into account the lived experiences those of us have had. And yes I find it irritating when someone much younger than me thinks I am not getting their point. I know what satire is, and I know how to read your posts. You think I am not getting your point. I want to know why you don't seem to be putting any effort in trying to understand why people are upset and take into account what they have to say about how women are portrayed and the rape and other experiences they endure rather than trying to point out how we are not getting your point. We know it's supposed to be satire. We don't need your help on that point.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Ender not trying to be mean, just being honest but this feels like you comin in here as a dude and telling the women to shut the fuck and just laugh at the funny.

It's kind of gross feeling.

Just being honest

[Corkey]

Satire, when done well, is funny as hell. Think Monty Python. This piece of garbage is sexist, homophobic, misogynistic and down right fucked up. It is sophomoric at best and it is just plane gross.

[Heart]

If this is a satire, and I have good reason to believe it is, it is not attempting to strip women of their dignity (therefore, it is not about me making light of women or men's dignities). In fact, it is attempting to do the exact contrary by highlighting the existence of this tendency (of stripping women of their dignity) in society....

the stereotypes surrounding them that are commonly used in popular culture. It "makes light of" in order to make people aware of what they themselves may very well be perpetuating.



Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Actually the offensive part to me is the ignorant attempt at satire -- the making of satire without the requisite cultural analysis - the kind of analysis that makes The Simpsons work so well -- even when they skewer lesbians.

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

[weatherboi]

hi everybody!!! :)

as a guy from this community that has loved femmes/lesbians it offends me to see the style of woman i love portrayed this way!!! in fact it just fuckin pisses me off!!!

as a guy from this community that loves women and has my own herstory i am offended by the disgusting way that this particular piece of "comedy" sets a tone for it to be ok to take advantage of women and have done enough work to understand how media like this goes against the fighting violence against women!!!

as a guy from this community i think it is important to say to others like me that have/will be gaining priviledge from transitioning that if this video did not offend you then you may need to revisit the mental work that comes with transitioning!!!

*notunderstandinghowyoucan'tseeitdancinglamb*

[EnderD_503]

Ender not trying to be mean, just being honest but this feels like you comin in here as a dude and telling the women to shut the fuck and just laugh at the funny.

It's kind of gross feeling.

Just being honest

Just want to clarify (and I've stated it a few times now) that I don't actually see the video as funny. I think I wrote that even in the first post I made. I think whoever created it probably shouldn't quit their day job. I'm also not telling women, or anyone for that matter, to shut the fuck up and laugh (actually, kind of the opposite). If I wanted people to shut up, I wouldn't continue talking to them. If I didn't want the discussion to happen, I wouldn't start typing to begin with. What I'm trying to say is that if people are angry, fine, go ahead and be angry. But what I'm also trying to say is that it doesn't help anyone's cause to sit there and point fingers all day.

People keep bringing up how I identify, and I get that people think that because someone doesn't identify in a certain way that they don't understand what other people of that identification feel about a subject that directly concerns them. But honestly, where would we get if we started limiting people on what they have to say based on their gender identification? Am I supposed to agree just because I don't identify a certain way and couldn't "possibly understand"? What if I identified as female and a lesbian? Would people be more willing to listen, then? People also seem to think I don't care or want to care about how lesbians/female identified folks feel...that's not the case at all. I am understanding, truly I am, but understanding does not necessarily mean that I'm going to agree that this is the most productive way to go about addressing these issues, and the fact that I don't agree shouldn't mean that I don't respect those feelings. I just think that reacting on pure emotion can be counterproductive to raising awareness.

Not trying to be mean either, and also just being honest. If this is your polite way of saying "Ender, fuck off" then please tell me "Ender, fuck off." I promise not to take it personally. Until someone tells me to blatantly get lost, all I get is that you guys disagree with me, but still don't mind me continuing to discuss. But I'm slowly getting the impression that it's a polite/indirect "please, shut up now." Please tell me if it is.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's not an Ender shut up or fuck off, I was merely voicing what it felt like to me.

Thanks for listening

[imperfect_cupcake]

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians. It is attempting to shed light on that stereotype and ridicule it. Again, making light of horrific situations is part of what makes satire effective and powerful. While this might not be the best attempt at it, I don't understand why there is such a huge backlash against it. Even well written satires are misunderstood by many and threaten to have an audience that does not fully understand its purpose.


by being misunderstood, I don't think it's being insinuated anyone is "dim" by the way. I think it's just the being able to see a picture one way and another, shifting the cube back and forth.

There's certain kinds of layerd irony in the way some of my friends take the piss that I have trouble understanding and I sometimes get upset and distressed. Mainly because of my cultural background and upbringing. Sometimes they have to re-assure me, it not meant that way.


I'm including a link to Nighty Night if some of you enjoy dark humour and satire.
I think you'll agree the absurdity shows more here and there's absolutely no suggestion they represent all women, nor are they encouraging people to treat pregnant people in this manner by abusing a pregnant woman.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/87MtH-Ax4Po&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/87MtH-Ax4Po&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

this is much better written. and yes, I agree, bulldog and heart, know your audience or it doesn't work! but I still don't think that video was supporting rape, no more than this video is supporting the abuse of pregnant women.

[Heart]

The creator is not trying to replace the frat boy with the older lesbian because he believes that lesbians actually behave in such a manner, but because that is how many in society view older lesbians.

See, I don't think so. I don't think there is a cultural impression of older lesbians as sex-craved cougars. That's a tried-and-true older straight woman stereotype. (Mrs. Robinson anyone?)

Older lesbians are stereotyped as sexless, humorless, birkenstock-wearing, man-hating, granola-eating separatists. Rarely have I seen older lesbians portrayed as sexual in any manner.

Seriously, this clip just makes no sense to me (older lesbian that I am). To do satire, you gotta know your tropes. And in not hitting its satirical mark, this clip ends up being pretty damn offensive.

Heart

[EnderD_503]

Ender - my question is -- does it work? I don't think it does. Because of the point I made earlier: You cannot successfully satirize something if you are basically ignorant about it on a social, cultural, and political level. That's what satire is after all - knowledgeable ironic commentary. This clip does not achieve satire - and if satire misses -- it easily becomes offensive. That's the risk of satire.

Hi Heart and thanks for your post,

To your first question I would response: No it doesn't work. Like I said, this guy shouldn't quit his day job any time soon. However, I don't feel that the reason this attempt at satire failed was because the author of it was ignorant lesbians, issues women face etc. I think the reason it failed was that he just didn't make it blatant enough that he was attempting to satirise this common misperception in every day society. As you said yourself, that is always the risk of satire (and arguably it happens, to some degree, with any satirical piece).

One last point: I am not at all convinced this was intended to be the kind of sophisticated satire you are arguing on behalf of.

Heart

Neither am I. But, actually, my point was not that it was akin to the genius of Candide or Les femmes savantes, but that to call the author out on misoginy himself is incorrect. Yes, he wasn't all that successful in his attempt, but let's at least recognise it for what it is. Also, there are cases where failed satires can be salvaged for a better purpose. That is part of what I am arguing as well. Do you not think that it may be more productive to approach the issue with a cool head, than with anger or throwing insults? And if it were an attempt to degrade women, would such an approach not have a better chance of gaining sympathy than mud-slinging?

[SuperFemme]

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.

[The_Lady_Snow]

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.


This is where it feels like to me that whole some guy telling me to chill out and have a sense of humor, like shhh girl don't you see the comedy in it fuck if it's at your expense after all you are just

a

girl..

[EnderD_503]

See, I don't think so. I don't think there is a cultural impression of older lesbians as sex-craved cougars. That's a tried-and-true older straight woman stereotype. (Mrs. Robinson anyone?)

Older lesbians are stereotyped as sexless, humorless, birkenstock-wearing, man-hating, granola-eating separatists. Rarely have I seen older lesbians portrayed as sexual in any manner.

Seriously, this clip just makes no sense to me (older lesbian that I am). To do satire, you gotta know your tropes. And in not hitting its satirical mark, this clip ends up being pretty damn offensive.

Heart

Our experiences on the matter are different, then. I can think of a few instances in American sitcoms and other television shows where older Lesbians are portrayed this way. Out of curiosity, are you speaking about your experience on a day to day basis, or in mainstream media, or both?

[BullDog]

I haven't seen people focusing on the video makers themselves. I have seen them focused on the end product. Not sure why there is a need to defend the video makers or understand what their intent was. Are the "creators" and supposed art form (satire) of this product more important to you than the subject matter?

Their end product sucks. Actually the main stereotype it is perpetuating is that young girls are just fuckholes. I agree with Heart that actually this so-called lesbian stereotype that apparently they are trying to "mock" isn't really all that prevalent (except for the bad clothes and hairdos). They don't appear to know much about lesbians and they don't appear to know the potential damaging consequences of missing their mark.

[EnderD_503]

why is not agreeing with the video or disliking it = emotional reactions, anger and the lack of a cool head?

curious.

Actually, I was in part referring back to softness's comment on the "emasculated little erection" or whatever the wording was, along with a few instances where others claimed to be speaking out of anger, if I recall correctly. I can go back and find them, if you'd like.

[EnderD_503]

I haven't seen people focusing on the video makers themselves. I have seen them focused on the end product. Not sure why there is a need to defend the video makers or understand what their intent was. Are the "creators" and supposed art form (satire) of this product more important to you than the subject matter?

I've seen a few people focusing their anger on the video makers themselves. I hesitate to go back and pull posts because last time I did that on the b-f.com forum people told me not to quote them. So if people don't actually mind, I don't mind going back and doing so, if that's what you're actually asking me to do.

I do think that the creators and art do dictate the subject matter to a degree. The final result may be separate, yes, and it is entirely possible to read any work of art in myriad of different ways, sometimes entirely against what the author intended.

Their end product sucks. Actually the main stereotype it is perpetuating is that young girls are just fuckholes. I agree with Heart that actually this so-called lesbian stereotype that apparently they are trying to "mock" isn't really all that prevalent (except for the bad clothes and hairdos). They don't appear to know much about lesbians and they don't appear to know the potential damaging consequences of missing their mark.

Let us say they don't know the potentially damaging consequences. What do you think an appropriate way of addressing that would be?

[imperfect_cupcake]

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

[Corkey]

I'm sorry Ender, art has some redeeming value, even art that depicts some rather socially controversial stuff. This isn't art, it is garbage wrapped up to look like steak. I don't know why you are defending this, you have a right to, but it makes no since to me that you do.

[The_Lady_Snow]

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.


For me it does, grant it I don't get this kind of humor, also for me I don't feel like you are trying to school me on sattire or it's ha ha moments.

nor does it feel like to me you are schooling me on lesbian experience.

That's the difference, and well coming from a guy it irks me more so I was honest about it

[imperfect_cupcake]

For me it does, grant it I don't get this kind of humor, also for me I don't feel like you are trying to school me on sattire or it's ha ha moments.

nor does it feel like to me you are schooling me on lesbian experience.

That's the difference, and well coming from a guy it irks me more so I was honest about it

ah ok. gocha. I get you. :)



EnderD, it appears I am more well done spoken than you. so ner.

[Heart]

Our experiences on the matter are different, then. I can think of a few instances in American sitcoms and other television shows where older Lesbians are portrayed this way. Out of curiosity, are you speaking about your experience on a day to day basis, or in mainstream media, or both?

I'm speaking of my own contextual knowledge as an older lesbian. Yes, that includes personal experience, but also exposure to literature, visual media and culture, social networks, etc.

Ender -- your argument that cool heads would be better than "mud slinging" feels like it betrays your more academic arguments about satire. As a woman and a lesbian my answer to this question is, no. No, cooler heads do not necessarily prevail; no, objecting strenuously is not "mud-slinging;" no, I will not bank my anger if I think women are being degraded, and no, I am not interested in gaining "sympathy," in the face of offense, nor is my job always to school the offender. Sometimes all that is required is to take it down as loudly and messily as need be.

I'm not saying this is that situation, but calls for women (or any degraded group), to be calm are guaranteed to bring out the warrior in me because I can sniff out injustice like a bloodhound.

Heart

[weatherboi]

well i do disagree with you but i choose to discuss towards people who are like me!!! you id as a woman and are a part of the oppressed group ...i am not comfortable that my experience in life gives me the freedom to openly debate it with you!!! i am not an older lesbian, i am an older trans guy!!! when i read posts that come from guys like me that seem to run defensively in a passive manner to avoid confronting misogyny i feel more inclined to engage in the conversation with them!!!

hope that makes sense!!! :)



um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

[imperfect_cupcake]

well i do disagree with you but i choose to discuss towards people who are like me!!! you id as a woman and are a part of the oppressed group ...i am not comfortable that my experience in life gives me the freedom to openly debate it with you!!! i am not an older lesbian, i am an older trans guy!!! when i read posts that come from guys like me that seem to run defensively in a passive manner to avoid confronting misogyny i feel more inclined to engage in the conversation with them!!!

hope that makes sense!!! :)

ohhh. yeah ok.

fairy muff.

you wanna arm wrestle instead then?

[betenoire]

I'm including a link to Nighty Night if some of you enjoy dark humour and satire.
I think you'll agree the absurdity shows more here and there's absolutely no suggestion they represent all women, nor are they encouraging people to treat pregnant people in this manner by abusing a pregnant woman.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/87MtH-Ax4Po&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/87MtH-Ax4Po&amp;hl=en_GB&amp;fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


I know I'm off topic and I do not care. I just have to say that when the brunette got into the stair-chair my first thought was "ooooh, I hope she falls down the stairs!". And she did.

I am satisfied.

[Stearns]

EnderD_, to be "schooled" on satire is, frankly, off-putting. It seems as though you are giving short shrift to this community's intelligence, wisdom, discernment and experience.

Additionally, a call for "cooler heads" by a male, among mostly women, is offensive and bespeaks of male superiority and privilege.

Anger is not a bad thing. After all, anger propelled the 19th Amendment, among many other rights that have been gained. Were it not for anger, mothers, sisters and wives would still be required to provide proof of a male relative's consent before being allowed to buy property or open even a checking account. I think this community knows what to do with its anger. It has, unfortunately, lots of experience with it.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know I'm off topic and I do not care. I just have to say that when the brunette got into the stair-chair my first thought was "ooooh, I hope she falls down the stairs!". And she did.

I am satisfied.

you might also like

http://www.youtube.com/show?p=xRhD6qsQC3w&feature=fvsp

it's the entire second series to green wing. batty, weird and awkward english humour.

Set up is a bit difficult but one point important: Guy, who is a doctor, took the blonde Head of Administration out for a fast lay then they both discovered after the fact that she's his mother.

point two, the scottish insane woman is madly in love with the red haired doctor in a coma. she's jealous of his gf so is trying to either marry him while he's in a coma or steal some sperm to get pregnant.

it's very absurd and nonsequiture at times but it's fabulous :)

[betenoire]

you might also like

http://www.youtube.com/show?p=xRhD6qsQC3w&feature=fvsp

it's the entire second series to green wing. batty, weird and awkward english humour.

Set up is a bit difficult but one point important: Guy, who is a doctor, took the blonde Head of Administration out for a fast lay then they both discovered after the fact that she's his mother.

point two, the scottish insane woman is madly in love with the red haired doctor in a coma. she's jealous of his gf so is trying to either marry him while he's in a coma or steal some sperm to get pregnant.

it's very absurd and nonsequiture at times but it's fabulous :)

I tried to watch it but

This video contains content from Channel 4, who has blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.

I have no idea who this Channel 4 is, but they need to seriously check their bullshit meanypants hatred of Canada. *irate*

I am going to make a thread about this!

[imperfect_cupcake]

suck!!!

that means I can't watch 4od when I move back. grrrr.

london drives me mental but not having english comedy at my disposal is going to blow. I won't be able to get BBCi player either. radio yes, but not tv.

bullocking bullox. stupid licensing laws. great. I'm stuck with ancient episodes of red dwarf and corrination street on PBS when I move back. fuckitygibblits.

[betenoire]

suck!!!

that means I can't watch 4od when I move back. grrrr.

london drives me mental but not having english comedy at my disposal is going to blow. I won't be able to get BBCi player either. radio yes, but not tv.

bullocking bullox. stupid licensing laws. great. I'm stuck with ancient episodes of red dwarf and corrination street on PBS when I move back. fuckitygibblits.

Naw, you can probably still find reruns of "Are You Being Served?". That show is great.

I wonder if someone who is smart with computers can set you up on a proxy server / fake IP addy situation so that the internet will THINK you are allowed to watch stuff that is apparently being kept top secret from Canadians.

[imperfect_cupcake]

not a bad idea!!

I need my "Mock the week" fix. And I'll still get british movies. thank you, I'll look into that!

[suebee]

It seems to me that you an get BBC on some cable or satellite packages.

[AtLast]

I find several things funny -
1. the video it was hysterical especially considering what was being advertised as one watched the video. would have been more hysterical if they advertised douche and tampax tho.

2. I find the fact that this is aobut "cougar lesbians" and so many people on B-F sites state frequently the term lesbian IS NOT their identity who are PERSONALLY offended by this..

3. I find it hysterical that of the hundreds of thousands of blatantly offensive, crude, deceitful, lying, pornographic videos on the internet,,,this is the one people find offensive.....

Sorry there is a lot more I find offensive than this 30 second video that is not worth the 30 seconds of typing I had to do to write this post.

Namaste


Lesbian is my identity as it is for many members here. And the admin has now included anti-lesbian/lesbian-phobic rhetoric in the Planet's TOS along with transphobia, sexism, sizeism, homophobia, racism, etc.

I agree that there are many blatantly offensive, crude, deceitful, lying, pornographic videos on the internet
that are quite offensive. However, there are members here that find this video offensive from a lesbian-phobic stance.

I wouldn't care for a clip that is offensive to any of the identities represented here. I feel like your comment is minimizing (or just plain disregarding other identities) the effect that the clip can or does have on those of us who do identify as lesbian and wanted to make our reasons clear.

[TickledPink]

There is nothing appealing about taking advantage of someone who is puking and intoxicated. Blech!

Further, now I'm depressed because I'm 42 and "could" be a Cougar???

[Corkey]

Just because I am not a lesbian doesn't diminish how distasteful and gross that clip is. I have every right to my opinion as a Human.

[MsMerrick]

um. I'm kinda in this disagreement too. but no one seems to be pointing out the same things to me and it's sort of wierding me out, folks. I don't want to read into that and I'd like some reassurance.

it's actually cause I smell, isn't it. you all won't fight with me cause I haven't bathed today.


actually I went back and looked at the other film that was on second city. mn. well. personally that was american collage style humour a la Adam sandler. Not Satire. So now I'm thinking second city has seriously dropped in their caliber of comedy since I was a teen/20's.

lame ass. not funny.

that said, I still don't think that first piece was promoting rape. Just poorly executed and badly written. which I think is a bigger insult than "offensive." But that's me.

I was kind of wondering exactly that ....I mean, I did too .. Admittedly I didn't have time to stick around and say it a couple more times ..!

[AtLast]

Just because I am not a lesbian doesn't diminish how distasteful and gross that clip is. I have every right to my opinion as a Human.

Yup, you do as a human... and also you and all lesbian members are now covered under a revised TOS contract on The Planet:

5. No Intolerant Behavior! - Racially offensive, Sizist, Sexist, Transphobic, Classist, Ableist, Elitist, Misogynist, Homophobic, Lesbian-phobic or otherwise hateful speech is NOT acceptable here. If you make an asshattish or hateful comment, you can expect your fellow community members to want to engage with you about it. Also, making a comment that is racist, ageist, sexist, sizist, Lesbian-phobic or generally offensive and then adding "It's just my opinion" or "It's my First Amendment Right!" does NOT negate your personal accountability for what you just said.

[RockOn]

offensive
not funny in the least

[Stearns]

There is nothing appealing about taking advantage of someone who is puking and intoxicated. Blech!


This is nothing against you, TickledPink. I'm just using your post to make a point. "Taking advantage" of someone would be more akin to someone having a few drinks that merely lowers their inhibitions, but they are still fully capable of giving or withdrawing consent. When someone is completely intoxicated, as depicted in the video, they are incapable of giving consent, in a legal sense. The act then rises to the level of - and indeed is - a sexual assault. Of the felony variety.

Just because I am not a lesbian doesn't diminish how distasteful and gross that clip is. I have every right to my opinion as a Human.

Right on. I'm glad the logic of not being able to be offended unless one is a member of the targeted group didn't apply to Lincoln and slavery and Johnson and civil rights.

[MsMerrick]

This is nothing against you, TickledPink. I'm just using your post to make a point. "Taking advantage" of someone would be more akin to someone having a few drinks that merely lowers their inhibitions, but they are still fully capable of giving or withdrawing consent. When someone is completely intoxicated, as depicted in the video, they are incapable of giving consent, in a legal sense. The act then rises to the level of - and indeed is - a sexual assault. Of the felony variety.


.
Well yeah except that, in the words of the players, what they wanted from these overly intoxicated straight women, was for them to "lick my twat"

Now, anyone who thinks that a falling over intoxicated woman or man, with or without experience, is going to be capable of doing that with any actual "fun" results.. raise your hand... :0
Seriously, yes blech and yes stupid..But yes satire... very badly done satire.....

[Stearns]

Well yeah except that, in the words of the players, what they wanted from these overly intoxicated straight women, was for them to "lick my twat"

Now, anyone who thinks that a falling over intoxicated woman or man, with or without experience, is going to be capable of doing that with any actual "fun" results.. raise your hand... :0
Seriously, yes blech and yes stupid..But yes satire... very badly done satire.....

I just got a mental picture of you in a jury box, Olympic-sized scorecard in hand, ready to rate the vic's performance, based on testimony from the perp :readfineprint:

Seriously, though, I just don't find depictions of sexual assault/sexual assault scenarios, regardless of how well-crafted or executed, regardless of vic gender or age - amusing. The lesbians-as-perps angle was particularly disturbing and it concerns me that the non-knowing will take it as truth more often than not. People viewed this video with different 'eyes'. Those were mine.

[BullDog]

I just got a mental picture of you in a jury box, Olympic-sized scorecard in hand, ready to rate the vic's performance, based on testimony from the perp :readfineprint:

Seriously, though, I just don't find depictions of sexual assault/sexual assault scenarios, regardless of how well-crafted or executed, regardless of vic gender or age - amusing. The lesbians-as-perps angle was particularly disturbing and it concerns me that the non-knowing will take it as truth more often than not. People viewed this video with different 'eyes'. Those were mine.

Yeah, I agree with you Stearns. I don't see how depicting sexual assault could ever be amusing or effective as satire no matter how well-crafted it was.

Some people seem to be implying that people objecting to this video don't get it was supposed to be satire or that we don't see the subtleties. Yeah, I think pretty much everyone gets it was supposed to be satire. That's not what is important to many of us.

[betenoire]

I do have to wonder at what point will negative representations of lesbians (or gay men, or bisexuals, or transsexuals, etc) in fictional media be considered okay? How many GOOD representations of lesbians do you need to balance out one bad one? When will poking fun at lesbian stereotypes no longer be considered too taboo?

I mean, 15 years ago when there were no (that I can think of) representations of lesbians on television - I can see this video being a HUGE deal. Like "Oh nice, you all finally get around to putting us on teevee and you pull this lesbian cougar shit. Assholes." But now? Really?

Lesbians are portrayed on television more and more - so you can't -really- expect that every portrayal of a lesbian is going to be a positive one. It's actually a little unreasonable to demand that. You can't expect entertainment media to treat you with kid gloves forever.

[AtLast]

Thinking about the kind of talent someone has that does put together satire that actually produces Ah, Ha moments, the ability to laugh at oneself and has some social value. This, just doesn't on the face of it. It is an insult to those talented folks that know what they are doing.

I am not crazy about the subject matter as well and the lesbian-phobic nature of it at all. But, I bet there are satirists that could pull it off in some meaningful way.... well, maybe....

[Random]

I don't find it funny.. I turned it off at the passed out frat girl part..

But I can see why some people would find it humorous..

My sexuality is not a sacred cow... If comedians/snl/second city can make fun of other people.. Rednecks,Mom Jeans, Republicans, Blonds, Brit Spears, then why not lesbians...

I don't like that kind of humor.. I have an embarrasment factor... When people make asses of them selves, It embarrasses me..

You should see me react to Borat and the other movie..

ugh...

[Heart]

Wait a sec -- let's not start with the whole humorless-lesbians-should-just-get-over-themselves stereotype. I specifically said that the Simpsons skewering of lesbians is successful satire -- meaning its damn funny. I can also remember falling off my chair laughing at Kat Clinton's ribbing menopausal lesbians to hysterical effect.

[Scorp]

Absolutely stupid...I wasted a couple of minutes of my time watching this hideous, dumbass video................ :beatcomputer:

[BullDog]

I do have to wonder at what point will negative representations of lesbians (or gay men, or bisexuals, or transsexuals, etc) in fictional media be considered okay? How many GOOD representations of lesbians do you need to balance out one bad one? When will poking fun at lesbian stereotypes no longer be considered too taboo?

I mean, 15 years ago when there were no (that I can think of) representations of lesbians on television - I can see this video being a HUGE deal. Like "Oh nice, you all finally get around to putting us on teevee and you pull this lesbian cougar shit. Assholes." But now? Really?

Lesbians are portrayed on television more and more - so you can't -really- expect that every portrayal of a lesbian is going to be a positive one. It's actually a little unreasonable to demand that. You can't expect entertainment media to treat you with kid gloves forever.

Treat us with kid gloves forever? Are you serious? :| I'd like to see just how funny you think the media's portrayal of bisexuals and transsexuals are.

Edit: oh and young girls have been portrayed in the media since the beginning of time. Seeing them drunk and passed out on the lawn ready to be fucked- not funny.

[betenoire]

Treat us with kid gloves forever? Are you serious? :| I'd like to see just how funny you think the media's portrayal of bisexuals and transsexuals are.


Yes, that's right Bulldog. I haaaaaaaate Lesbians and I loooooooove Bisexuals and Transsexuals. You totally have me all figured out and stuff! Amazing! Only you forgot to mention how much I loooooooooove Gay Men. I'm hurt that you didn't notice that particular aspect of my subtext! Boo! (That was sarcasm.)

I actually can't think of any positive portrayals of transsexuals in entertainment media. Not one. Zero. Ditto bisexuals.

But wow, you guys get Kerry Weaver. You get Willow Rosenberg. You get Dr. O'Hara. Who do I get?

I'll tell you who I get. I get barsexuals - I get portrayals of girls who are drunk enough that they'll fuck anything - girls like the girls in that stupid video. I get Maureen Johnson - who comes complete with every single bad thing that people presume about bisexual women. I get Karen Walker - who is really just a self-obsessed drunk who's implied bisexuality I can't even pretend to take seriously. I get Alyssa Jones who basically said "well, I'd done everything else so I figured I'd start sleeping with women".

We will explore how I feel about jokes about bisexuals and transsexuals on comedy shows once there are some legitimate and -kind- representations of bisexuals and transsexuals in the media, cool?

[BullDog]

Yes, that's right Bulldog. I haaaaaaaate Lesbians and I loooooooove Bisexuals and Transsexuals. You totally have me all figured out and stuff! Amazing! Only you forgot to mention how much I loooooooooove Gay Men. I'm hurt that you didn't notice that particular aspect of my subtext! Boo! (That was sarcasm.)

I actually can't think of any positive portrayals of transsexuals in entertainment media. Not one. Zero. Ditto bisexuals.

But wow, you guys get Kerry Weaver. You get Willow Rosenberg. You get Dr. O'Hara. Who do I get?

I'll tell you who I get. I get barsexuals - I get portrayals of girls who are drunk enough that they'll fuck anything - girls like the girls in that stupid video. I get Maureen Johnson - who comes complete with every single bad thing that people presume about bisexual women. I get Karen Walker - who is really just a self-obsessed drunk who's implied bisexuality I can't even pretend to take seriously. I get Alyssa Jones who basically said "well, I'd done everything else so I figured I'd start sleeping with women".

We will explore how I feel about jokes about bisexuals and transsexuals on comedy shows once there are some legitimate and -kind- representations of bisexuals and transsexuals in the media, cool?

So you are telling me there is a bunch of positive portrayals of lesbians in the media and that were in some sort of media renaissance for lesbians?

Lesbians have it good so we should lighten up and not take things so seriously because the kid gloves have to come off some time, but there is zero positive portrayals of bisexuals and transsexuals so we are not going to discuss. Everything is bad. Seriously, is this what your argument is?

You say the kids gloves stage can't last forever. When did this occur? How can the honeymoon be over when we never had one?

Thanks for pointing out your sarcasm, cuz really I would never have noticed unless you kindly pointed it out to me.

[Soon]

Treat us with kid gloves forever? Are you serious? :| I'd like to see just how funny you think the media's portrayal of bisexuals and transsexuals are.

Edit: oh and young girls have been portrayed in the media since the beginning of time. Seeing them drunk and passed out on the lawn ready to be fucked- not funny.

For me, it is ready to be raped (as Stearns pointed out, it is rape when someone is so drunk that proper consent cannot be given).

This was my main objection to the clip. An incoherent, wasted college girl about to be raped (by a lesbian).

[Stearns]

Treat us with kid gloves forever? Are you serious? :| I'd like to see just how funny you think the media's portrayal of bisexuals and transsexuals are.

Edit: oh and young girls have been portrayed in the media since the beginning of time. Seeing them drunk and passed out on the lawn ready to be fucked- not funny.

For me, it is ready to be raped (as Stearns pointed out, it is rape when someone is so drunk that proper consent cannot be given).

This was my main objection to the clip. An incoherent, wasted college girl about to be raped (by a lesbian).



When one has actually scooped up these girls from frat lawns where they were dumped after serving their 'usefulness', it just makes the video all the more distasteful. I guess I should lighten up, though, and put that one 13 y/o - in particular - who was brought to the party by her older 'friend', out of my mind.

[BullDog]

Soon and Stearns, yes it's rape not fucking. Thank you for saying that. I think it's an important distinction.

[Ebon]

Yes, that's right Bulldog. I haaaaaaaate Lesbians and I loooooooove Bisexuals and Transsexuals. You totally have me all figured out and stuff! Amazing! Only you forgot to mention how much I loooooooooove Gay Men. I'm hurt that you didn't notice that particular aspect of my subtext! Boo! (That was sarcasm.)

I actually can't think of any positive portrayals of transsexuals in entertainment media. Not one. Zero. Ditto bisexuals.

But wow, you guys get Kerry Weaver. You get Willow Rosenberg. You get Dr. O'Hara. Who do I get?

I'll tell you who I get. I get barsexuals - I get portrayals of girls who are drunk enough that they'll fuck anything - girls like the girls in that stupid video. I get Maureen Johnson - who comes complete with every single bad thing that people presume about bisexual women. I get Karen Walker - who is really just a self-obsessed drunk who's implied bisexuality I can't even pretend to take seriously. I get Alyssa Jones who basically said "well, I'd done everything else so I figured I'd start sleeping with women".

We will explore how I feel about jokes about bisexuals and transsexuals on comedy shows once there are some legitimate and -kind- representations of bisexuals and transsexuals in the media, cool?

I thought Alice's character from the L Word was a pretty positive portrayal. But I totally get what you're saying.

[Gemme]

I didn't care for it.

[BullDog]

For me, it is ready to be raped (as Stearns pointed out, it is rape when someone is so drunk that proper consent cannot be given).

This was my main objection to the clip. An incoherent, wasted college girl about to be raped (by a lesbian).



I agree. I said earlier the lesbian has basically been put in the place of the frat boy. Insert gender/sexual orientation of choice in the video instead of the lesbians and it's still not funny or satirical.

I do think there is added misogyny, homophobia and lesbophobia added to the mix when you say drunk college girls will even find older lesbians attractive and be "willing" if they are drunk enough.

The messages and imagery is disturbing.

[AtLast]

I thought Alice's character from the L Word was a pretty positive portrayal. But I totally get what you're saying.

Not too bad, but, bi-trashing is rampant, I think. I was totally amazed at a thread on the dist site about bisexuality and the bigoted stance against bisexual people in it. Practically every misconception, myth and just plain garbage was thrown out in it from our very own community. Disturbing, to say the least. Why anyone's sexuality within this community is open to negative criticism and value judgements is beyond me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Not too bad, but, bi-trashing is rampant, I think. I was totally amazed at a thread on the dist site about bisexuality and the bigoted stance against bisexual people in it. Practically every misconception, myth and just plain garbage was thrown out in it from our very own community. Disturbing, to say the least. Why anyone's sexuality within this community is open to negative criticism and value judgements is beyond me.


Lord forbid you are a guy, or butch who likes penetration, ever watch the crucifixion on that matter?

[AtLast]

Lord forbid you are a guy, or butch who likes penetration, ever watch the crucifixion on that matter?

Oh, yeah!!! Seen it, had it directed at me... more than once! Some of the most disturbing BS about one's sexuality has been from the B-F community as far as I'm concerned. Frankly, I never ran into such bigotry in these areas until I did get involved with the B-F dynamic. Hell of a trade-off just to find one's comfort zone in terms of relationships! But, I have found my home... just have to do a lot of filtering!

[imperfect_cupcake]

rape isn't funny. I didn't see this as promoting rape. I saw it as satirising the morons who take advantage of drunk women, as they are pathetic idiots. I saw it as satirising - poorly - the whole aspect of it.

not promoting rape. jesus. that wouldn't really be satire then, though, would it.

again - it's poorly done and kinda lame. But I still think people are missing the satire aspect of it and just going straight to "WHAT raping people is supposed to be funny!!!???" um. no. it wouldn't be satire if that's what they were saying.

[The_Lady_Snow]

rape isn't funny. I didn't see this as promoting rape. I saw it as satirising the morons who take advantage of drunk women, as they are pathetic idiots. I saw it as satirising - poorly - the whole aspect of it.

not promoting rape. jesus. that wouldn't really be satire then, though, would it.

again - it's poorly done and kinda lame. But I still think people are missing the satire aspect of it and just going straight to "WHAT raping people is supposed to be funny!!!???" um. no. it wouldn't be satire if that's what they were saying.



I am all about a good laugh to HB, and we all have different opinions and funny bones, I too can't find the comedic value of this video that is showing *lesbians* cooing and rubbing on a drunk girl.

It feels oogie, it feels gross and it's unfortunately what does happen to girls when they do get fucked up, men and women regardless of sexual orientation take advantage of girls when in this state.

Why they chose to use that for sattire makes no sense to me, then again I am an odd duck.

I don't think we are gonna agree that for some it's funny for some it's just gross.

We all have different lenses on when it comes to this particular comedic route. This is coming from someone who does not think that Chelsea (some woman with a talk show) is funny AT ALL when she picks on the lil mexican guy named Chuy. I get it's ha ha funny for folks to watch the white girl fuck with the mexican guy like he is some fucking monkey, but me I just don't.:)

[betenoire]

Frankly, I never ran into such bigotry in these areas until I did get involved with the B-F dynamic. Hell of a trade-off just to find one's comfort zone in terms of relationships! But, I have found my home... just have to do a lot of filtering!

I dunno. I've heard some superscarycrazybullshit from outside of this community. Christ, when I first came out I accidentally ran with a crowd who believed that ALL penetration was rape. All of it. Eeeeeeven digital.

Policing other people's sexual activities isn't even a Queer specific behaviour. Hets do it too, that's for sure. They might even do it more. Try being a straight man and admitting to your friends that you like your girlfriend to stick her finger in your ass - hell try being a straight man and admitting it to your girlfriend! Holy moses, the world might blow up. "Oh no man, that's exit only."

The sex police need to back the hell off, that's for sure. Just because -they- aren't having any fun in bed doesn't mean they get to stop the rest of us.

[BullDog]

HB, you think it's satirizing morons who take advantage of drunk girls, Ender thought it was satirizing lesbian stereotypes. The more I think about it the more I think it actually really wasn't much of an attempt at satire, but who knows for sure. I think it was no more than some gay men trying to make a funny ha ha- lesbians gone wild- ha ha ha ha.

Their tag line for the video is: Hide your daughters, because Cougar Lesbians are on the prowl!

One of the Facebook comments pretty much sums it up for me: "Not funny. Just mid-life male date rape personas badly written as lesbians. Total fail."

YouTube has over 20,000 views of the video. No one is discussing it as satire. There are a few who object to the view for similar reasons discussed here. The rest our nasty, nasty misogynist, homophobic and lesbophobic comments made by morons. The video makers may have their nice little sophisticated set of followers who get their oh so sophisticated satire, but that's not the biggest group of people who will see their videos. No one on YouTube is talking about Jonathan Swift or Voltaire.

[AtLast]

I dunno. I've heard some superscarycrazybullshit from outside of this community. Christ, when I first came out I accidentally ran with a crowd who believed that ALL penetration was rape. All of it. Eeeeeeven digital.

Policing other people's sexual activities isn't even a Queer specific behaviour. Hets do it too, that's for sure. They might even do it more. Try being a straight man and admitting to your friends that you like your girlfriend to stick her finger in your ass - hell try being a straight man and admitting it to your girlfriend! Holy moses, the world might blow up. "Oh no man, that's exit only."

The sex police need to back the hell off, that's for sure. Just because -they- aren't having any fun in bed doesn't mean they get to stop the rest of us.

Of course this happens outside of this community! I was speaking to what my personal experience has been. Mine, not others. Most likely this is due to the specific groups, populations, class (which is not middle-class), level of education, era of time, professional careers, regions I have lived in, access to education, privilege, my color and most certainly as a woman, my cultural background and just who I have been involved with.

I spent many years as a heterosexual woman, some as bi, a few as poly, been with bi partners, been widowed, been in 27 years of monogamy in the midst, now single...

Jeep Sakes! I have truely witnessed and experienced more BS bigotry around sexuality and gender identity (as a FIB) in this community than at any other time in my life as part of other communities and populations. And I hope I am part of the solution to combat this kind of stuff. That is the goal.

[DapperButch]

Not too bad, but, bi-trashing is rampant, I think. I was totally amazed at a thread on the dist site about bisexuality and the bigoted stance against bisexual people in it. Practically every misconception, myth and just plain garbage was thrown out in it from our very own community. Disturbing, to say the least. Why anyone's sexuality within this community is open to negative criticism and value judgements is beyond me.

Wow, this really surprised you? In my experience it is the female same-sex population that are the most discriminatory towards bisexual people (I'm not sure about the B-F community specifically, but I would suggest that the majority of people on the dash site define as female).

Heterosexuals are much more accepting, I think, with gay males behind them.

[Apocalipstic]

I thought the video was dumb. It was not funny no matter how I tried to look at it. Irony. satire, British humor....nah, did not do it for me. Just kind of sat there being dumb. Was I offended? no. But I think it is dangerous to even suggest that taking advantage of drunk girls, is funny.

Yes and how many of these rapes are perpetuated by lesbians? The main point is that young women get raped and that is definitely not funny. It is also true that lesbians are doing very little, if any, of it.

I personally have been sexually assaulted by more than one Lesbian while I was drunk. Yes, I blame myself because I was drunk, but I said no and fought back....so saying that Lesbians are doing little, if any of it is a pipe dream.

Women can be predators and can and do rape other women.

I don't think it makes it better or worse to change it to frat boys. Either way, taking advantage of someone is just not funny.

[BullDog]

I never said no women ever rape women. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men- that is what I mean by little. The if any referred more to the notion of marauding bands of lesbians looking to rape college girls.

[Apocalipstic]

I never said no women ever rape women. The vast majority of rapes are committed by men- that is what I mean by little. The if any referred more to the notion of marauding bands of lesbians looking to rape college girls.

OK, that is fair.

But I want to make clear that marauding bands of Lesbians to run around assaulting college girls.

I have been that college girl.

Its great to think that all lesbians would not do such a thing, but it has happened more than once to me. By women. Only once by a man.

Yes, I understand I put myself in vulnerable positions when I was young, but I think way less rapes by women are reported than those by men.

[Apocalipstic]

I don't know the statistics, again, because so much goes unreported....but the tone of some of the posts, not yours in particular BullDog, looks like the posters only think men would do something like this.

It happens all the time. In our community.

We can't blame men for this.

[Stearns]

I don't know the statistics, again, because so much goes unreported....but the tone of some of the posts, not yours in particular BullDog, looks like the posters only think men would do something like this.

It happens all the time. In our community.

We can't blame men for this.

I don't see this. I see people using men as an example in place of the lesbians in order to show that rape is rape, regardless of the gender of the perp. That even though these are women, they are no less culpable and it is no less of a crime.

[AtLast]

I thought the video was dumb. It was not funny no matter how I tried to look at it. Irony. satire, British humor....nah, did not do it for me. Just kind of sat there being dumb. Was I offended? no. But I think it is dangerous to even suggest that taking advantage of drunk girls, is funny.



I personally have been sexually assaulted by more than one Lesbian while I was drunk. Yes, I blame myself because I was drunk, but I said no and fought back....so saying that Lesbians are doing little, if any of it is a pipe dream.

Women can be predators and can and do rape other women.

I don't think it makes it better or worse to change it to frat boys. Either way, taking advantage of someone is just not funny.

I agree, sexual assualt is sexual assault. Sexual predators can be of any gender or sexual orientation. As much as it hurts, lesbian, bi, gay, trans, sexual predators exist and assualting someone while intoxicated certainly knows no gender, etc. And then there is the pleading of the perp about I was drunk or stoned/high as the excuse.....

[AtLast]

Wow, this really surprised you? In my experience it is the female same-sex population that are the most discriminatory towards bisexual people (I'm not sure about the B-F community specifically, but I would suggest that the majority of people on the dash site define as female).

Heterosexuals are much more accepting, I think, with gay males behind them.

Yeah, it did. Maybe it has to do with locations (probably many variables) I have lived in. Dunno. But have really seen differences post B-F affiliation (both in real-time and on-line).

[imperfect_cupcake]

HB, you think it's satirizing morons who take advantage of drunk girls, Ender thought it was satirizing lesbian stereotypes. The more I think about it the more I think it actually really wasn't much of an attempt at satire, but who knows for sure. I think it was no more than some gay men trying to make a funny ha ha- lesbians gone wild- ha ha ha ha.

Their tag line for the video is: Hide your daughters, because Cougar Lesbians are on the prowl!

One of the Facebook comments pretty much sums it up for me: "Not funny. Just mid-life male date rape personas badly written as lesbians. Total fail."

YouTube has over 20,000 views of the video. No one is discussing it as satire. There are a few who object to the view for similar reasons discussed here. The rest our nasty, nasty misogynist, homophobic and lesbophobic comments made by morons. The video makers may have their nice little sophisticated set of followers who get their oh so sophisticated satire, but that's not the biggest group of people who will see their videos. No one on YouTube is talking about Jonathan Swift or Voltaire.


well, I think there's a lot of intensely stupid people out there and a lot of people who are willing to take any excuse to promote their own agenda.

to be totally honest, I think the clip I put on this thread will have some but fuck morons thinking "yeah! ha ha! it's funny to abuse pregnant women! yeee haw!"

I'm going to say it again - it was crappy satire. Poorly written. And I do have straight male friends who do say things like "lesbian cougars gone wild, baby!" but they also joke around saying stuff like "I'll pay you £50 to kick me in the nuts right now, my uber dumpling."
they even joke around about me raping them in wiccan ceremonies when I was much younger (the joke being rather complex and needing to know why they are teasing me and my past).
They *do* mean it ironically.

You may have a point that these film makers weren't satirising but I dunno. If may be a case of "Nuts." When "Nuts" magazine for men first came out, it was dones with a heavy sense of irony and taking the piss out of themselves. gradually that sense of irony and satire slowly changed into support for stupid male behaviours (and by that I mean college anus rings for brains. I remember what moronics the young men were like first year of uni. I mean that level).

second city used to be something that had a lot of politically based stuff in it when I was an older teen, late 80's. It may have degraded into complete crap.

however, I *personally* do not find some things taboo when it comes to satire. actual satire. And frankly if someone put the smooth moves on a drunk girl and she puked on them, I'd piss myself laughing. Even in real life. I'd then help her up and take her to the bathroom and get her a cab home.

I'm not saying people must find it funny - like I said, I didn't find it funny cause it was shoddy writing. But I wasn't offended in the slightest either. I just thought they needed better comic writers if that's the best they could come up with.

I'm not going to read the comments. everytime there is a piece of writing about anything homosexual or women orientated in the newspaper, the fuckwit brigade comes out and uses it as fodder for fire either for or against what they want. I have no interest in what they want or say. as soon as the event passes, they crawl back under their rocks. But then I don't have to deal with homophobic fuckwits on a daily or even weekly basis so I tend to choose to ignore them and just keep being exactly who I am and working towards a good life and a good community.

Apocoliptic - that was very far from british humour. it wasn't even slightly wry. But yes, it was cr@p.

tangent - when I was about 28, I used to go to "fabulous and 40" (40+) lesbo night. looking for "Chicken Hawks" - now known as cougars. Chicken Hawks, however was a strictly lesbian term. And my friends and I *hoped* for them! So I don't exactly see cougar/chicken hawk as a derogatory term. Hell, I've slept with young butches since I've been in London. And got the piss taken out of me for it in the same manner.

what they did, no. not funny and badly written. But not offended either.

If people don't think it was satire, then that's their take. I understand why they would be angry then - and I don't really have an argument with that at all, actually. My only bugbear was that people were taking it literally AND calling it satire. It irritated me. It can't be both by definition.

pedantic of me. completely. but that was my only issue. past that, I don't care enough to argue against anyone here about that poorly written piece of mediocre blah.

<----- pendant gadfly, obviously.

:):bunchflowers:

[imperfect_cupcake]

I get it's ha ha funny for folks to watch the white girl fuck with the mexican guy like he is some fucking monkey, but me I just don't.

I agree. That's not irony or satire, it sounds like just being a fucking twat.

[Heart]

I don't know the statistics, again, because so much goes unreported....but the tone of some of the posts, not yours in particular BullDog, looks like the posters only think men would do something like this.

It happens all the time. In our community.

We can't blame men for this.

Statistically:
If all assaults were reported then yes, reports of women committing violence would go up, but so would reports of men committing violence. It is likely that the statistical relationship would remain pretty constant - meaning that there would still be a vast predominance of men perpetrating against women, especially if we were looking at global stats.

I'm not dismissing rape/violence committed by lesbians or women, but I think we also can't ignore the real proportions by saying that women rape other women "all the time." In fact, it is a very small fraction of intimate violence comparatively.

That doesn't make it okay and I'm sorry it happened to you Apoc.

Heart

[Ima Dandy]

normally I read thru the posts before I reply, but two points here.....1) this is a a poll, so a reply is expected from your own prewashed brain....& 2) a video was posted to comment on..................



I will go back & read thru all the posts before I comment more than this................by the video , I was offended. As a lesbian & a Cougar lover. That is not funny in any scope of my (very odd) imagination.

[Ima Dandy]

having read thru the posts, I DO see what some folk are saying, however, I find that this post sums it up for me. Satire fully taken into acount,& even if it was more well written, I would personally want no part of this production



In my head, it breaks down like this:


Lesbians portrayed as unattractive stereotypes
Lesbians portrayed as desperate for sex
Lesbians portrayed as sexual predators
Lesbians portrayed as only being able to obtain sex from the drunkenly impaired


And then:


Young women being treated as sexual playthings
Young women being preyed upon
Young women "deserving" what they get because they got drunk
Young women being coerced (forced) and being mocked for it

[Jess]

Didn't watch the video. Won't watch it. Just reading that it is about sexual abuse tells me that it is not funny. I love satire and in general love Second City, however, no matter how it is dressed up or dressed down sexual abuse ain't funny.
I vote no.

[FR]

---I am old so anyone who flashes their breasts, drunken or otherwise is appreciated :cheesy:

p.s. thank u HB for fuckitygibblets :clap:

[Jett]

Most satires will always be offensive to someone. I find that when people get the most offended is when they feel like what is being said is true about them or it's something that they don't want to deal with. It was a lame attempt at satire. I don't think that they were saying that lesbians or gay people as a whole are predators. Most of the lesbians that I know would never try to pick up a drunk college girl. Some of them would. Everything is on a person by person basis including what some people find funny and what others find offensive. I've seen things that were far worse than this video, like that dumb girl on The View saying that older women becomes lesbians because they "Couldn't get a man." That is a hell of a lot more dangerous than this stupid video. That's all in my own opinion of course.

:poc-biggrin:

I don't agree with that, I think finding the depiction of molestation of any inebriated vulnerable person offensive could also be more called giving a crap and not an indicator of personal baggage. I think it'd be a bit more odd not to find it at least a bit uncomfortable or somewhat offensive on some level.

Also the difference between being personally offended and finding certain material offensive, I think I've heard a lot more of the latter than the former here.

As far as the video... not very funny... and I have a pretty wicked and black humor. I also didn't find it horrifically offensive.... but did think it was pretty stupid and classless.

[firie]

I don't agree with that, I think finding the depiction of molestation of any inebriated vulnerable person offensive could also be more called giving a crap and not an indicator of personal baggage. I think it'd be a bit more odd not to find it at least a bit uncomfortable or somewhat offensive on some level.

Also the difference between being personally offended and finding certain material offensive, I think I've heard a lot more of the latter than the former here.

As far as the video... not very funny... and I have a pretty wicked and black humor. I also didn't find it horrifically offensive.... but did think it was pretty stupid and classless.

You know, I so agree with you here.

And it also doesn't mean that one does not "get comedy" or "get satire" or whathaveyou. I watched the video this morning and don't really know why I did.

Plenty of people have laid out reasonably why it is offensive.

I didn't find it funny, and put it in the category (beyond how socially irresponsible it is) of dick, fart, and vomit humor which has never really appealed to me. You know, American Pie type stuff but damaging to women and lesbians instead of just women generally.

I think it could also be quite potentially triggery for some folks, but that is just me.

[Apocalipstic]

The clothes were especially triggery, I know none of us would dress like the unfortunate actors in the film ;)

:praying:

[Scota_Parisi]

I love all sorts of satire and comedy - "The Kids in the Hall", Monty Python, Mel Brooks, Clerks II, and mockumentaries etc.

All bets are off when it comes to satire, I get this. But just keep an eye out for the next Chick Tract depicting "Cougar Lesbians on College Campuses".

[Unndunn]

I think it was satire that missed its mark. I wasn't offended.

[lipstixgal]

I think it was stupid:|:|

[BullDog]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on what they find funny, what they find to be satire, what offends them, etc. However, it is quite bothersome to me that many people don't appear to focus on the messages something like this sends out about women and lesbians and who the largest audience is (YouTube viewers) who see them.

I do not care what the intent of the video makers was, nor the "art form" they were attempting to work in. What I care about is the constant messages that are sent out about women in general and lesbians more specially in the media.

I feel that people are like, oh well, poor satire that missed the mark. But what about the messages that are being sent out? If something was made about race or trans people I don't think people would be shrugging, oh well, they just didn't quite hit the mark with their satire. It seems over and over again I get the message that it's ok to portray women and lesbians any damn way someone wants to- in ways that are not acceptable about other groups of people. Women just don't seem to matter.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I feel that people are like, oh well, poor satire that missed the mark. But what about the messages that are being sent out? If something was made about race or trans people I don't think people would be shrugging, oh well, they just didn't quite hit the mark with their satire. It seems over and over again I get the message that it's ok to portray women and lesbians any damn way someone wants to- in ways that are not acceptable about other groups of people. Women just don't seem to matter.


then I should be worried about the message that the clip I put up puts women in a poor light and supports violence against women. And I just don't feel that way. you can't have it both ways: if it's satire, then its not supportive of the material it's against it That's the whole POINT of satire. look at the clip I put up. watch it. do you feel it's telling people to do that to women? Or is it funny because it's so obviously not the way to behave.

If it's literal humou: ha ha lookit the funny stupid lesbian/black person/woman/wheelchair user/fatty, then yes by all means it's very damaging with a shitty message.

[BullDog]

I know what satire is.

[citybutch]

Post-modern... post-feminist... post post post... Post stucturalism... lack of boundaries... respect dissolved. Blah blah blah. No rules, no guidance, our elders left in the dust. There will come a time where we understand that to honor each other doesn't mean that we that we need this kind of so called "satire" to understand each other. We can talk and even have humor about our stereotypes (and they do exist) without reinforcing patriarchal sterotypes .... and there I go showing my generational experience...

Mary D called this type of thing degrading and not enlightening... reinforcing stereotypes... and not groundbreaking. Indeed it is NOT groundbreaking.. merely reinforcing what is... weakened women taken by... well ya know...

I am sorry.. Butch is better than this... and I know that. I live it. Butches living outside the patriarchal paradigm... and transmasculine.... trans... stud/aggressive/macha/macho.... dudes...

Political humor gets much smarter than this... and if you want to defend it? I say you exist within a paradigm that is very very old. There truly exists lesbian, butch/femme, trans, femme... etc... humor ... that exists.. that transcends this stereotypical yada yada... blah blah blah.... very old crap...

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know what satire is.

Bull dog, you asked why people who believe it's crappy written poor satire by untalented idiots don't worry about the message. I'm one of those people. The answer is: because those who believe it's crappy written satire by talentless idiots also believe that satire mocks behaviour your don't want. Thus it doesn't cause concern, badly written crap or not. I can't explain it any simpler than that.

[BullDog]

I am not a simpleton and don't need simple explanations.

[Soft*Silver]

rape is rape is rape and no matter how its delivered, its still rape. The fact they can get people to laugh at it, informs me that their purpose, whether realized or not, is to diminish the culpability of the rapists and minimize the anguish of the victims.

AND may I point out, once again, it is a "fairy tale" of pitting women against women...they arent step sisters or evil stepmothers or wicked witches nowadays. No...they are lesbian cougars.

humour is a cultural vehicle to transmit a culture's values and beliefs. If you can get someone to laugh at it, you can get them to embrace it.

for me and mine, we refuse to embrace violence against women, as well as pitting women against women...

[imperfect_cupcake]

I am not a simpleton and don't need simple explanations.

I wasn't calling you a simpleton. ?????????????????????????
it's a simple answer because the explanation is actually simple.
I don't find it offensive because it's satire. ergo the message is against what it's depicting. you *did* ask bully. I'm not insulting you, I'm being sincere and answering your question why someone who thought it was poorly written satire wasn't concerned about the message. So I explained why. There's no insult intended and I wasn't calling you stupid. Jesus bully you've known me for years. I don't think you are even *slightly* simple.

[imperfect_cupcake]

rape is rape is rape and no matter how its delivered, its still rape. The fact they can get people to laugh at it, informs me that their purpose, whether realized or not, is to diminish the culpability of the rapists and minimize the anguish of the victims.

AND may I point out, once again, it is a "fairy tale" of pitting women against women...they arent step sisters or evil stepmothers or wicked witches nowadays. No...they are lesbian cougars.

humour is a cultural vehicle to transmit a culture's values and beliefs. If you can get someone to laugh at it, you can get them to embrace it.

for me and mine, we refuse to embrace violence against women, as well as pitting women against women...

I completely disagree. people use humour to address very serious issues. I've been raped. many, many times. and because I can laugh not at rape but at a rapist, because if rape is depicted in satire (and I don't mean this pile of untalented shit) I understand it's against the rapist for their behaviour. Like in Nighty-night the humour is against the serial killer woman, not the woman being beaten up and her child being stolen.

you won't see me supporting child theivery and the abuse of pregnant women because I laughed at the complete absurdity of the Serial killers (the blonde woman had killed many boyfriends) behaviour.

Many people use humour in their opposition. So I really really do not agree with your principle statement.

[Maria]

I don't think there's enough evidence in this video to construe it as some sort of sophisticated satire wherein the film makers lampoon stereotypes of lesbians as predators and college-aged women as sexually vulnerable drunks in order to criticize those stereotypes. The video just isn't that meta. Certainly the depiction of an overly drunk girl hitting the ground and being groped doesn't seem rife with subversive messages about her condition. Rather, it just gets some cheap laffs in at the expense of women.

That is my take. Oh, also it's unfunny crap.

[BullDog]

I don't think there's enough evidence in this video to construe it as some sort of sophisticated satire wherein the film makers lampoon stereotypes of lesbians as predators and college-aged women as sexually vulnerable drunks in order to criticize those stereotypes. The video just isn't that meta. Certainly the depiction of an overly drunk girl hitting the ground and being groped doesn't seem rife with subversive messages about her condition. Rather, it just gets some cheap laffs in at the expense of women.

That is my take. Oh, also it's unfunny crap.

Yes, exactly.

HB, yes we have known each other online for years, and of course I have plenty of respect for you and like you. Your argument here, and those of others, still seems to be we are just too dense to figure out this is satire (no matter how poorly conceived) or what the point of satire is in the first place, and therefore it doesn't matter. I strongly disagree. I know damn well what satire is and what the point of it is. I also strongly disagree with what you said to Softness. All I can do is shrug at this point, I guess.

Again, it seems women in general, and lesbians more specifically, are open to all sorts of degradation, ridicule and offense that is not tolerated for other groups- both here and in the world at large, by women as well as males.

[Soft*Silver]

you can disagree with me...but that is the purpose it serves in a culture.


I completely disagree. people use humour to address very serious issues. I've been raped. many, many times. and because I can laugh not at rape but at a rapist, because if rape is depicted in satire (and I don't mean this pile of untalented shit) I understand it's against the rapist for their behaviour. Like in Nighty-night the humour is against the serial killer woman, not the woman being beaten up and her child being stolen.

you won't see me supporting child theivery and the abuse of pregnant women because I laughed at the complete absurdity of the Serial killers (the blonde woman had killed many boyfriends) behaviour.

Many people use humour in their opposition. So I really really do not agree with your principle statement.

[imperfect_cupcake]

you can disagree with me...but that is the purpose it serves in a culture.

I'd also disagree with that. That's not what I learned in Anthropology. And also from personal expereince. I do not agree with everything I laugh at/with.


still seems to be we are just too dense to figure out this is satire (no matter how poorly conceived) or what the point of satire is in the first place, and therefore it doesn't matter.

absolutely not what I am saying. you ASKED. how the hell am I to give a direct answer about why something doesn't bother me - because erverytime I say "because it's satire and that means it's supportive of opposite of what it's depicting so why should I worry about something it doesn't support"
you answer "I know what satire is and I'm not stupid."

how ELSE am I supposed to answer if that IS my answer?? that's exactly how I feel and if you would like me to explain it in a way that somehow circum navigates some bizzarre insecurity about intelligence around sense of humour you are fresh out of luck.

If it Isn't satire and it's literal humour, then YES, I agree, it's hideously offensive. And Maria has said than in her opinion it's NOT satire - therefore I agree it's something to worry and get pissed off about. I'm actually thinking possibly maria is right, that it's not.

but I'm not schooling you on satire. I would like to point DIRECTLY to you ASKING people who felt it was satire. you asked, you get answer.

if you think a simple answer is someone calling you stupid, jesus bull dog. Actually, that's an incredibly unfair response and I'm rather upset.

In fact, you can play here without me. this is ridiculous.

[BullDog]

I am not the slightest bit insecure about my intelligence/lack thereof or anyone else's. I don't get why you are offended if it's satire and not offended if it is- even if poorly done. That sounds like, oh the poor guys made a bad video but they didn't mean it. They were trying to be satirical.

Shrug

[imperfect_cupcake]

I don't get why you are not offended if it's satire and offended if it isn't (my corrections)

I have explained several times, and you informed me I was insulting your intelligence. I told you I'm not playing any more. go play with yourself.

[Ginger]

Old thread I stumbled on... but hits a chord because in the last couple months or so, a woman I know who identifies as a lesbian (not on this thread), hosted an event she called Cougars and Kittens for lesbian singles looking to date people much older or younger than themselves. She just turned sixty and finds young women very hot, and refers to that as her preference.

It made me uncomfortable, and not because I'm opposed to people dating people outside their age group; as is true for most, I've met and been friends with a number of butch-femme folks and others in very disparately-aged relationships, and it is just no big deal—but something about this cougar-kitten thing bothered me.

Maybe the fetishizing of age? Even if it's not fair to use "fetishizing," even if I just say, it's the preference for someone several generations up or down the scale that bothers me, that isn't consistent with who I am. Who cares if someone has a size preference or other "type" preference based on physical traits; don't many people have a "type"? Me, I like tall. Tall turns my head. Tall and handsome makes me go into flirt-mode and tall, handsome and kind totally melts me. But while I don't want to police the preferences of others, I also happen to usually be drawn to women in my general age group, late forties to late fifties-ish. I don't think about it, it just seems to naturally occur that way for me.

I don't know then, why the Lesbian Cougars and Kittens thing bugged me so much. Like, she wanted me to post it on my Facebook page and I just felt like I couldn't get behind it. If I can articulate it better, I'll come back and do so. For now I just wanted to mention the event, because it happened in the LGBT community and seemed like a phenomenon in response to the cultural popularity and satirization of "cougars" that this thread is about.

[Quintease]

I wouldn't be against it (a cougars and kittens event) though I'd be unlikely to attend. I know quite a few women who are attracted to women 15+ years their junior. I'm not that old so that's pretty young :tease:

The problem is meeting those women. In your 20's and 30's you can still go to bars and feel relatively comfortable. In your 40's/50's what are you going to get out of a bar full of drunk women, spilled beer and immature 18 year old's? I'm having a hard enough time now and many of my friends are still partying!

Far better to organise your own night so you can meet women in relative civility.

[Ginger]

I wouldn't be against it (a cougars and kittens event) though I'd be unlikely to attend. I know quite a few women who are attracted to women 15+ years their junior. I'm not that old so that's pretty young :tease:

The problem is meeting those women. In your 20's and 30's you can still go to bars and feel relatively comfortable. In your 40's/50's what are you going to get out of a bar full of drunk women, spilled beer and immature 18 year old's? I'm having a hard enough time now and many of my friends are still partying!

Far better to organise your own night so you can meet women in relative civility.

I agree, Quintease, that the bar scene is very skewed toward younger women. I remember waiting for a bathroom in a bar and accidentally cutting in line, then quickly pulling back and apologizing—but as I was walking away, I heard a young butch say to another very young person, "Jesus, did you see that lady cut in line?" I knew "that lady" was not how they'd describe someone their age.

So yeah, it's not a comfortable scene many time for older folks and I'm sorry to hear that's true in the U.K. as well. But there are also lots of comfortable outlets for people over 40, at least in the NYC area. I can't speak for the rest of the country except Provincetown, of course, where the street are a sea of grey hair, on the high-season weekends.

[*Anya*]

Not funny.

Taking advantage of drunk young women, even more not funny.

Why is there not an equivalent word for an older man with a younger woman or an older gay man with a younger man?

Sure, there is the phrase "sugar daddy" but it is only used in the context of an older, wealthy man and younger woman- not a middle class or poor older man.

Do I think there is anything wrong with an older woman with a younger one? Depends on the age difference. My butch is 10 years younger than I am. Our values and outlook on life are extremely similar.

I could not really see myself with anyone 15-20 years younger. That would be heading into the ages of my daughters and would be getting a little creepy for me personally.

Do I judge anyone else if they do? No.

The video just was not humerous for me based on the premise of going after intoxicated young women.

[Ginger]

So yeah, I forgot to say, that video that this threads opens with—not funny.

And I love parody, and watch Kids in the Hall and Eastbound and Down and all kinds of crazy shit. But this one, no. Lesbians as predators of drunk girls, too loaded a gun. Don't play with it.

[Quintease]

I haven't even watched the video and I'm getting the impression that I don't need to.

[starryeyes]

I can see the "intended" humor behind it and the fact that it was extremely exaggerated. I did think it was stupid, and not funny. It reminded me of the tacky skits from "The State", just completely politically incorrect. Seeing the woman hugging and talking to the girl who was passed on the lawn was just disgusting. I am sure some people would think it is funny, but you would need the frame of reference and maybe have a few drinks before watching it, I dunno. Lol.

;)

[Elijah]

Just reacting on a gut level, it turned My stomach a bit. It's not important enough to Me to be flatly "offensive". More like a roll of the eyes, followed by turning the channel.

[Gemme]

As for the cougars and kittens thing, if everyone is of age and is consenting, let them have at it. Their kink doesn't have to be my kink for me to respect it.

I didn't care for the original video before and I still don't. Preying on incapacitated people is not my thing.

[stonewalldog]

I realize that this is an old thread.

I thought the video was so funny. It was done tongue in cheek.
I thought it was no more offensive the "the real L word". LOL!