Concealed weapons. Yes or No ???

[Blaze]

Concealed weapons. Yes or No?
Coming from a transplanted State. To which the law, has exceptions. Via- Ex. Pre's. Bush. I have the right to bear arms.
Now coming from Hawaii,to which I didn't need to bear arms, unless hunting.
My question is to Bear Arms or Not?
Now mind you, Texas is one of the most "up status states" for violent crimes. To which one is even afraid to answer a door bell, yet alone go to a gas station to pump gas after 8:00 P. M Yet we are "Not known for vigilantly styles, or aggressiveness".
My question, is... Do you feel that there is "a right to bear arms," more so a concealed weapon with a license. Or do you. Take your chances and go without?
I struggle with this issue. I have used a riffle for hunting. I have used a weapon in the military. But I have true issue with people getting a concealed license, with the right to carry. And not knowing how to use the weapon properly yet alone with a history of violent past involved. What is your thought on this?

[Turtle]

I don't interpret the right to bear arms (which we do have and I cool with being able to fend off an occupying force) as the right to carry a concealed weapon. It's bad enough out here. We can have everybody blasting away at each other. And no I can't do it just because everybody else is doing it.

It boils down to I have to be the world I want to see.

[JustBeingMe]

Blaze, I don't know what city your living in where your afraid to answer your door bell or pump gas after 8 pm. Could it be you live in a bad side of your city?
If you live in Dallas or Houston, or some other large city, yeah, I would bet you might.I grew up in Houston, and I moved from there when I was around 21. When I was 25 one of my friends that Ets'd from the military went home to Houston, and while she was sitting at a red light she was car jacked. Had she had a gun, maybe she might have been able to protect herself, maybe not, it all depends on the circumstances involved.
I grew up here in Texas, lived here almost all my life of 46 years, going on 47, and honestly can't say the folks here in Texas would be gunslingers with a license to carry a concealed firearm. I am all for it. We already have the so called Make My Day law here where you have the right to shoot anyone stealing from you on your property or breaking into your home.
Granted there is a lot of crime sure, and it's not just in Texas, it's all over.
The gangs are taking over, drugs are taking over, bad economy always add to that, etc,....etc...etc.
The Fact is........just this...........you have to have a complete background check done on you before you can have the license to carry.
Yeah, folks will fall through the cracks, but that is a system fault they have with the way it's set up. It needs to be a nationwide search on the individual, not just local for one state.
I am for the right to bear arms, I wouldn't have our Constitution changed one I oda. I am for the right to protect your property and yourself and family or anyone in your home or even your dog in your yard for that matter.
As far as handguns being concealed, they make you take a training class too.
Why not carry concealed ? Hell the criminals do. I would also venture to say that there are just as many if not more firearms that are in the hands of criminals than just regular law abiding citizens.
Do I personally own a gun, No I don't. Have I ever used one, Yes, I have, hunting many moons ago.
Our forefathers wanted us as citizens to have the right to bear arms and I don't think of it any other way, and carrying a concealed weapon for your own protection is just one way in an individuals right to bear arms.
It's how this country was formed.

Just my 2 cents...you can take it with you or leave it in the change drop at the store by the register.


ETA: I also lived in Michigan, just outside of Detroit where the cops won't even bother coming out when your carjacked, cause the crime there is so rampant, they don't even do anything about stolen vehicles. A coworker's son was carjacked at the very same light I used to stop at and turn to get home. Interesting isn't it? He called the cops, they told him it would be worthless to even come out and get a description of the Perps that stole it. That it would be a waste of time. To just come in to your local precinct and file a report and file on his insurance cause the car would be LONG GONE and STRIPPED.And never mind the Perps hand a gun when they did it.

[Glenn]

The police can't protect you every second. It is YOUR duty to protect and defend yourself and your loved ones. Even if your in pro gun Texas, I heard even letting part of your holster show, or even an outline of your gun is called "printing", and may get you in trouble.

[betenoire]

There's a reason that 70% of murders in the USA are done with guns, while only 30% of murders in Canada are done with guns.

That's all I have to say about that.

[weatherboi]

I don't like guns. I have a scar on my forehead from being hit by one and I will never forget the smell of it in my face after it had been used. I do however believe in a persons' right to get a concealed weapons license if it is deemed necessary to their safety. A dear friend of mine has one because she had a guy stalk her and threaten to kill her over and over again. It goes everywhere with her no matter where she goes, even church on Sundays. Her philososphy is "if he finds me I am dead no matter what, with my gun I have a chance".

[NJFemmie]

I don't interpret the right to bear arms (which we do have and I cool with being able to fend off an occupying force) as the right to carry a concealed weapon. It's bad enough out here. We can have everybody blasting away at each other. And no I can't do it just because everybody else is doing it.

It boils down to I have to be the world I want to see.

I mirror this statement. I think the right to bear arms doesn't necessarily mean carry one with you at all times. Defending your home is one thing, but to carry one with you at all times? No. (Most) people cannot be trusted with a gun.

[Sachita]

I have mixed feelings about it. In a perfect world, my world, there wouldnt be a need for guns at all. I have shot guns but I also like to shoot skeet and target. I agree with Turtle that its my spiritual responsibility to create a consciousness that doesnt manifest any violence. At the same time I know that we live in an insane world where change is happening rapidly. I prepare myself for disaster and this includes guns and ammo to protect myself and property. I may get a handgun but at this time I dont feel a need to carry it around "concealed" but I certainly want the right to do so. Anyone can obtain a gun and conceal it. It all boils down to intention.

[Bard]

well I do have a permit to carry concealed and had to go through a bit to get it. Because of what I do it is a need. I don't carry all the time but with recent events I am glad I have it . A local police officer was at his home working on his car when a person he had perviously arrested asulted him no he did not have to discarge the firearm but it think of what could have happened. yes if you are going to have a firearm you need to know how to use it properly and it is a lot of responsabliy. you never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to kill.. one of the range rules:police::cigar2:

[Cowboi]

I do believe in conceal carry. I have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. I am a avid shooter. Both shotgun and pistols. The sheriffs
dept. here has a fantastic facility here to use.
My dad taught me to shoot when I was very young. I was taught gun safety, and have always been a responsible gun owner.

[MrSunshine]

Yes, if properly trained.

By the way, most crimes commited in the US, where guns are involved, have more to do with illegal weapons. It's not the people running around with CCW's killing people and commiting crimes.

You have to take a very informative class to obtain a CCW. One of the many things that stuck out in that class was the fact that most people trying to protect themselves are killed with their own gun.
Even more important to consider is that if you are in bed and say have your hand gun in your night stand and someone comes in to your room, you have less than 3 seconds to react. Not good odds to bring a gun into the mix.
I think everyone should take that course, not get the CCW but educate themselves on the topic.

[Blade]

yes I believe in carry conceal. Chances are the people following the law and obtaining a CC are not the ones committing violent crimes. Most states have classes on CC that you take before you are granted a CC, this includes shooting the gun at different ranges accurately.

I carry a pistol in my truck. I don't carry a pistol on my person, here it is considered going in terror of the public or something like that, but I have seen people carry them openly those people are few and far between, way few and far between. I do carry my pistol in plain view on the seat of my truck when I'm in it.

Would I use it? Certainly. Thus the phrase "don't fuck with me I fuck back"

[MrSunshine]

I don't like guns. I have a scar on my forehead from being hit by one and I will never forget the smell of it in my face after it had been used. I do however believe in a persons' right to get a concealed weapons license if it is deemed necessary to their safety. A dear friend of mine has one because she had a guy stalk her and threaten to kill her over and over again. It goes everywhere with her no matter where she goes, even church on Sundays. Her philososphy is "if he finds me I am dead no matter what, with my gun I have a chance".

I'm sorry this happened to you Weatherboi.

In case you or your friend don't know, it is illegal to take a fire arm into a church. CCW or not. That includes hospitals, schools (any type) obviously any type of government building. The list goes on. This information is obtainable with the CCW or just asking at any police department.

[Blaze]

Wow, now this is very interesting indeed. Yesterday at lunch with a bunch of Doctors and Nurses. We got into this conversation/argument. It all started because when one of our Nurses went to Starbucks to get coffee, she walked into the cafe and looked around and said that pretty much everyone in the cafe had their holsters openly showing and pistols just a shinning. She said she felt safe, knowing she could walk out without worrying about getting mugged with all the hardware she seen.
Oh and what really hit the nail in the coffin to say... Is Harris County just made a new law, to which everyone is jumping aboard and trying to get a CC Lic. The law is; If you have a Concealed document, you don't have to stand in the long court lines like everyone else, You present your document and you are let in on the side entrance, So you get your stuff done faster and no more standing in an hour or so line.
To which started off the conversation/argument. I for one have a CC lic. But I haven't felt the need (Yet) to carry on my persons as Blade stated. And yes, I agree with Mr.Sunshine. You should be trained and educated and everyone should take the course. It's true, higher crimes are carried out by those who are not trained, and have illegal weapons. I have learned more from this group than with our one hour argument/convo at work. It got kind of testy lol, glad none of our faculty can't carry a weapon into the hospital. I want to thank everyone for their points of views, knowledge and in depth feelings, and I look forward to hearing more.

[MsDemeanor]

Sure, go ahead, give everyone a carry permit. Let them stuff as many concealed guns down their jeans as it takes to make their dicks look nice and big.

Ban bullets instead.

[Blaze]

And... I guess the matters got worse when the new law was thrown into the conversation. Harris County law; If you show up at court with a Concealed weapons document. You will be let in from a side line. To which you will not have to stand in an hour line anymore, you will be let in quickly. To which there is a mad house of people signed up for the courses now, and there is a waiting list.

[Stearns]

I don't interpret the right to bear arms (which we do have and I cool with being able to fend off an occupying force) as the right to carry a concealed weapon. It's bad enough out here. We can have everybody blasting away at each other. And no I can't do it just because everybody else is doing it.

It boils down to I have to be the world I want to see.

48 states allow CCW; many for a very long time. The premise that these permits would result in a return to the Wild West has not borne out. Most people do not want to shoot another person just for the heck of it - it's for self-defense when faced with a choice between life and death/serious harm. I'm not afraid of CCW permit holders; it's the citizens with firearms who have no formal training that I'm scared of. And, the criminals, of course.

[Jesse]

I think an interesting fact that many may not know is, certain sizes of self-defense sprays, and any electronic device designed to shock an individual are indeed considered to be concealed weapons by the CCW.

[Blade]

Blaze you said your friend felt safe around people brandishing weapons openly. Chuckling...that isn't carry conceal. Here I believe unless these people are obviously officers or detectives that would be considered going in terror of the public.

If people are openly carrying weapons, it might seem a little scary to me depending on the situation. I say that because I have been shooting since a very early age and I'm not one who is quick to react without thinking things thru in stressful situations. However, I don't know what others deem a dangerous situation, and I'd prefer to determine that and defend myself if possible, and not have random people shooting around me and hoping they are hitting the bad guy. Jus sayin.....

[Boots13]

Its a tough issue, really.

I dont want my rights limited. I want the option to carry (though surprisingly enough I dont) if and when I want to. I also want the public to have the means to protect themselves if and when a violent incident occurs.

And, I would rather know who is carrying by seeing it strapped in a retentive holster, rather than concealed under clothing or tucked in a waistband...

But Open Carry laws dont require a Concealed Permit.
You can strap it visibly to your hip, in a retentive holster, without concealing it and be protected under Open Carry with no training, certificationor license.

You must be 21
you cannot have been convicted of a felony, DV, addicted to drugs/alcohol or involuntarily committed to a mental institution.
there are a host of other "rules" one must follow.

And if you do have a permit, WA's Concealed Permit is recognized in these states : AK, AR, AZ, FL, ID, IN, KY, LA, MI, MS, MT, MO, NC, OH, OK, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, VT

And if youre a bad guy your going to carry no matter what, for whatever reason or intent you may have...

So I just have to assume that everyone is carrying.

[Blade]

Its a tough issue, really.

I dont want my rights limited. I want the option to carry (though surprisingly enough I dont) if and when I want to. I also want the public to have the means to protect themselves if and when a violent incident occurs.

And, I would rather know who is carrying by seeing it strapped in a retentive holster, rather than concealed under clothing or tucked in a waistband...

But Open Carry laws dont require a Concealed Permit.
You can strap it visibly to your hip, in a retentive holster, without concealing it and be protected under Open Carry with no training, certificationor license.

You must be 21
you cannot have been convicted of a felony, DV, addicted to drugs/alcohol or involuntarily committed to a mental institution.
there are a host of other "rules" one must follow.

And if you do have a permit, WA's Concealed Permit is recognized in these states : AK, AR, AZ, FL, ID, IN, KY, LA, MI, MS, MT, MO, NC, OH, OK, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, VT

And if youre a bad guy your going to carry no matter what, for whatever reason or intent you may have...

So I just have to assume that everyone is carrying.

Boots, isn't it true that although these states recognize CC not all states recognize each others CC permits. I'm thinking when a friend of mine got hers it didn't apply if she happened to be in SC or VA. I do see that SC isn't on your list so maybe it was just SC, not sure. Guess my question is for example if I have a CC permit in NC is it also applicable in the states you listed or does a person need one for each state they travel in?

BTW I agree we have to assume that everyone is armed

[Soon]

BTW I agree we have to assume that everyone is armed


I think this is a sad way to live.



I cannot imagine walking around where I am from (Canada) assuming everyone is armed!

What a difference in countries.

So, when you are out and about, you presume everyone has a gun?

Doesn't that make for a fearful time outside of your own home? Anxiety much?

[Blade]

I think this is a sad way to live.



I cannot imagine walking around where I am from (Canada) assuming everyone is armed!

What a difference in countries.

So, when you are out and about, you presume everyone has a gun?

Doesn't that make for a fearful time outside of your own home? Anxiety much?



I'm not assuming that everyone is armed with a firearm, Ma'am. However if you sit back and think about it most everyone is armed in some way. If you are assaulted in some way and need to protect yourself (all you's being general you) there are fingernails, keys, fingernail files, hairspray, pepper spray, ink pen, umbrella, glass bottle, coffee mug, and many more things that we carry with us daily. Not to mention our own fingers, feet, knees and voice. As a innocent person, or a person under attack you really are armed you just don't realize it. CC is to protect the honest person, not to give the honest person a free pass to shoot people.

And no I am not fearful outside of my own home. In this town most people are killed by people they know, are neighbors with or are kin to.

[Boots13]

Boots, isn't it true that although these states recognize CC not all states recognize each others CC permits.

Yes, Blaze, you are correct. Not all states have reciprocity with concealed weapon permits. And for those who choose to travel with a weapon, know the laws of the states you are visiting, or traveling through.


I think this is a sad way to live.

Doesn't that make for a fearful time outside of your own home? Anxiety much?



Assuming people are armed is not a hinderance to the quality of my life. I am fearful of drunk , buzzed and medicated drivers, and wish drug and alcohol laws were given more attention than gun control.

A drunk driver scares me a helluva lot more than a law abiding citizen, armed with a weapon.

Now if you want to talk bad guys who pack...no matter what law we institute or restriction we impose, do you really think they will obey it?

[Soon]

Assuming people are armed is not a hinderance to the quality of my life. I am fearful of drunk , buzzed and medicated drivers, and wish drug and alcohol laws were given more attention than gun control.

A drunk driver scares me a helluva lot more than a law abiding citizen, armed with a weapon.

Now if you want to talk bad guys who pack...no matter what law we institute or restriction we impose, do you really think they will obey it?

I'm glad it doesn't affect your quality of life.

For me, to presume/assume that everyone is walking around with an armed weapon, it would negatively affect my psyche as I went about my day; I am thankful that this doesn't cross my mind as I go about my day.

[MsDemeanor]

Utah offers a non-resident carry permit :fastdraq: that's recognized by something like 30 other states. You don't even have to go to Utah to get it!! It's all about the :greendollar::greendollar::greendollar: they rake in.

[Boots13]

Sure, go ahead, give everyone a carry permit. Let them stuff as many concealed guns down their jeans as it takes to make their dicks look nice and big.

Ban bullets instead.


I couldnt agree with you more...Armor piercing bullets dont have a place in my world. Remember the rush to buy ammo when President Obama was elected into office? Everyone thought the end was near and stockpiled ammo, not weapons.

"Let them stuff as many concealed guns down their jeans as it takes to make their dicks look nice and big"

LOL...and then there was the guy at Lowes who was wearing sweats with a handgun tucked in his waistband ... he bent over to get a widget off the shelf and blew his nuts off...

[Jesse]

Florida CCW Reciprocity Map

Thinking there are 36 states that honor FL CCW permit, (if I counted right, and 34 states that Fl honors. But all of that honoring only goes as far as handguns or pistols, no other concealed weapon can be carried in the states that honor FL, such as billy clubs, mace etc.

Wondering how I would comfortably conceal a billy club. :|Key word here is comfortably. lol

Yes, I'd say Fl. is definitely a gun state.

Florida has issued more than 1.6 million permits since adopting its law in 1987, and had more than 600,000 licensed permit holders as of November 30, 2009.[/URL] Reported permit holders are predominantly male.


States that Honor Florida's CCW Permit:

[URL="http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/alabama-ccw-state-laws.php"]Alabama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States#cite_note-licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us-1), Alaska (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/alaska-ccw-state-laws.php), Arizona (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/arizona-ccw-state-laws.php), Arkansas (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/arkansas-ccw-state-laws.php), Colorado (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/colorado-ccw-state-laws.php)*, Delaware (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/delaware-ccw-state-laws.php), Florida (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/florida-ccw-state-laws.php), Georgia (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/georgia-ccw-state-laws.php), Idaho (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/idaho-ccw-state-laws.php), Indiana (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/indiana-ccw-state-laws.php), Kansas (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/kansas-ccw-state-laws.php)*, Kentucky (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/kentucky-ccw-state-laws.php), Louisiana (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/louisiana-ccw-state-laws.php), Michigan (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/michigan-ccw-state-laws.php)*, Mississippi (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/mississippi-ccw-state-laws.php), Missouri (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/missouri-ccw-state-laws.php), Montana (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/montana-ccw-state-laws.php), Nebraska (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/nebraska-ccw-state-laws.php), New Hampshire (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/newhampshire-ccw-state-laws.php), New Mexico (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/newmexico-ccw-state-laws.php), North Carolina (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/northcarolina-ccw-state-laws.php), North Dakota (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/northdakota-ccw-state-laws.php), Ohio (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/ohio-ccw-state-laws.php), Oklahoma (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/oklahoma-ccw-state-laws.php), Pennsylvania (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/pennsylvania-ccw-state-laws.php), South Carolina (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/southcarolina-ccw-state-laws.php), South Dakota (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/southdakota-ccw-state-laws.php), Tennessee (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/tennessee-ccw-state-laws.php), Texas (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/texas-ccw-state-laws.php), Utah (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/utah-ccw-state-laws.php)*, Vermont (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/vermont-ccw-state-laws.php)*, Virginia (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/virginia-ccw-state-laws.php), Washington (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/washington-ccw-state-laws.php), West Virginia (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/westvirginia-ccw-state-laws.php), Wyoming (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/wyoming-ccw-state-laws.php)



State CCW Permits that Florida Honors:

Alabama (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/alabama-ccw-state-laws.php), Alaska (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/alaska-ccw-state-laws.php), Arizona (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/arizona-ccw-state-laws.php), Arkansas (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/arkansas-ccw-state-laws.php), Colorado (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/colorado-ccw-state-laws.php), Delaware (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/delaware-ccw-state-laws.php), Florida (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/florida-ccw-state-laws.php), Georgia (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/georgia-ccw-state-laws.php), Idaho (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/idaho-ccw-state-laws.php), Indiana (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/indiana-ccw-state-laws.php), Kansas (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/kansas-ccw-state-laws.php), Kentucky (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/kentucky-ccw-state-laws.php), Louisiana (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/louisiana-ccw-state-laws.php), Michigan (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/michigan-ccw-state-laws.php), Mississippi (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/mississippi-ccw-state-laws.php), Missouri (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/missouri-ccw-state-laws.php), Montana (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/montana-ccw-state-laws.php), New Hampshire (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/newhampshire-ccw-state-laws.php), New Mexico (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/newmexico-ccw-state-laws.php), North Carolina (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/northcarolina-ccw-state-laws.php), North Dakota (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/northdakota-ccw-state-laws.php), Ohio (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/ohio-ccw-state-laws.php), Oklahoma (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/oklahoma-ccw-state-laws.php), Pennsylvania (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/pennsylvania-ccw-state-laws.php), South Carolina (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/southcarolina-ccw-state-laws.php), South Dakota (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/southdakota-ccw-state-laws.php), Tennessee (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/tennessee-ccw-state-laws.php), Texas (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/texas-ccw-state-laws.php), Utah (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/utah-ccw-state-laws.php), Vermont (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/vermont-ccw-state-laws.php), Virginia (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/virginia-ccw-state-laws.php), Washington (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/washington-ccw-state-laws.php), West Virginia (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/westvirginia-ccw-state-laws.php), Wyoming (http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/wyoming-ccw-state-laws.php),

[Zora77]

After living in the U.S. since over 10 years and as a recently sworn in American citizen, reading discussions like this all the sudden make me feel like a foreigner again.

In international comparison the U.S. ranks #1 in firearm-related deaths (only closely followed by Brazil). I live in San Francisco and there not a week going by where I don't read about a shooting in the community. A horrific reality that for sure cannot be addressed by putting more firearms into peoples' hands.

It's sad that in this country people can get arrested for drinking a beer in public or exposing their boobs - but have the right to bare arms. An interesting concept of freedom.

[Zora77]

Also, how about instead fighting for every American's right to have good education, a job, access to health care and healthy food? Something tells me a discussion on the 'right to bare arms' would not be as relevant if these issues would be resolved.

Oh my - this German/American has her undies in a twist over this topic :)

[Corkey]

My answer, yea, no.

[Stearns]

After living in the U.S. since over 10 years and as a recently sworn in American citizen, reading discussions like this all the sudden make me feel like a foreigner again.

In international comparison the U.S. ranks #1 in firearm-related deaths (only closely followed by Brazil). I live in San Francisco and there not a week going by where I don't read about a shooting in the community. A horrific reality that for sure cannot be addressed by putting more firearms into peoples' hands.

It's sad that in this country people can get arrested for drinking a beer in public or exposing their boobs - but have the right to bare arms. An interesting concept of freedom.

I thought only Michelle Obama had the right to 'bare arms'. ;)

[Zora77]

Haha - looks like I am a foreigner after all :) I'm all for the right to bare boobs - how about that?? Oh wait, I'm in San Francisco - never mind.

[MsDemeanor]

How about this, then. Anyone can get a carry permit, and anyone who jumps the hoops can get a concealed carry permit. The day before the above laws go in to effect, however, another law must be in place - the minimum barrel length allowed on any weapon owned by any private citizen is 4 feet. Anyone caught in possession of a weapon shorter than that faces 6 months mandatory jail time.

[Stearns]

Sure, go ahead, give everyone a carry permit. Let them stuff as many concealed guns down their jeans as it takes to make their dicks look nice and big.

Ban bullets instead.

How about this, then. Anyone can get a carry permit, and anyone who jumps the hoops can get a concealed carry permit. The day before the above laws go in to effect, however, another law must be in place - the minimum barrel length allowed on any weapon owned by any private citizen is 4 feet. Anyone caught in possession of a weapon shorter than that faces 6 months mandatory jail time.

That'd be a mighty long dick, for sure. Talk about having a third leg...

[Waldo]

Out of curiosity have any of you who have a concealed weapons permit and/or carry regularly had a gun pulled on / leveled at you?

[UofMfan]

This conversation makes me physically ill. Seriously, I am not sure I can participate in it and maintain my sense of civility.

I thank those of you who are engaged and are expressing their thoughts, which I share, so nicely. You know who you are :)

[Stearns]

I think everyone wished we lived in a (much) less violent society, where there was no need to protect one's self in such a manner. Like Boots, I never carried off-duty b/c I didn't want to live that way. I still don't carry. However, if there was a specific potentially deadly/serious harm threat to me or my wife, I absolutely would. I wouldn't want that right taken away, until violent predators are themselves disarmed.

[BullDog]

There's a reason that 70% of murders in the USA are done with guns, while only 30% of murders in Canada are done with guns.

That's all I have to say about that.

I rest my case.

Will someone please sneak me into Canada. I hear we can get married there too and they have health care.

[firie]

There's a reason that 70% of murders in the USA are done with guns, while only 30% of murders in Canada are done with guns.

That's all I have to say about that.

What is it? Didn't Michael Moore point this out? And Canadians tend to have just as many guns or buy as many or some such?

I was raised very Texan gun toting, and so I have mixed feelings here. I grew up around arsenals really. I learned severity and respect and also how to shoot--and not just 1 but several types of guns. My mom always carried a concealed handgun, and my parents had a few in the house. We learned gun safety, we knew not to mess with them. I don't know if it's in my blood per se (goodness) but I'm really Texan when it comes to guns, and concealed weapon permits, but don't carry. When I lived in Kansas City guns had to be visible, and this felt more threatening for some reason. I don't know. I have a hard time here. There is something in my genetic code, I swear, because as liberal and peaceful as I claim to be, I totally get all NRA about guns.

[Gayla]

What is it? Didn't Michael Moore point this out? And Canadians tend to have just as many guns or buy as many or some such?

I was raised very Texan gun toting, and so I have mixed feelings here. I grew up around arsenals really. I learned severity and respect and also how to shoot--and not just 1 but several types of guns. My mom always carried a concealed handgun, and my parents had a few in the house. We learned gun safety, we knew not to mess with them. I don't know if it's in my blood per se (goodness) but I'm really Texan when it comes to guns, and concealed weapon permits, but don't carry. When I lived in Kansas City guns had to be visible, and this felt more threatening for some reason. I don't know. I have a hard time here. There is something in my genetic code, I swear, because as liberal and peaceful as I claim to be, I totally get all NRA about guns.


I can pretty much say "ditto" to this because I think everything you said applies to me. Firearms were commonplace when I was growing up and like most things that I grew up around, having them in the house or truck was just "normal". Everyone I knew owned guns. Everyone I knew hunted. My grandfather made gun stocks and taught me how to use, store and clean them. In many ways, they were just tools. No different than fishing tackle or hand tools. Maybe it is just a Texas thing.

While I don't currently own a firearm or have any desire to carry a concealed weapon, I've never felt uncomfortable around someone that was legally armed.

I do have to say that the whole thing about the CCW permit allowing people to bypass the security line in the capital building is about the funniest thing I've heard of in years.

[firie]

I can pretty much say "ditto" to this because I think everything you said applies to me. Firearms were commonplace when I was growing up and like most things that I grew up around, having them in the house or truck was just "normal". Everyone I knew owned guns. Everyone I knew hunted. My grandfather made gun stocks and taught me how to use, store and clean them. In many ways, they were just tools. No different than fishing tackle or hand tools. Maybe it is just a Texas thing.

While I don't currently own a firearm or have any desire to carry a concealed weapon, I've never felt uncomfortable around someone that was legally armed.

I do have to say that the whole thing about the CCW permit allowing people to bypass the security line in the capital building is about the funniest thing I've heard of in years.

Yeah, about the security lines, holy shit, really!

Thanks, because I struggle here, seriously. Like my mom named her guns, they were a part of our family,and that may sound absolutely nuts to some, but my mom wasn't stuffing her pants with them, we just lived with them and we knew (my sister and I as kids) to respect them--we knew how they worked, etc. Commonplace, but really respected. My grandmother died with a shotgun underneath her bed. They just existed alongside us. So this is culturally weird for me, and I grapple with it.

ETA: And you have to, in Texas, have something to kill all the damn snakes. My grandma named her favorite shot gun, the "snake charmer," so it's weird how upbringing plays into things, that's all.

[Gayla]

]
ETA: And you have to, in Texas, have something to kill all the damn snakes. My grandma named her favorite shot gun, the "snake charmer," so it's weird how upbringing plays into things, that's all.

I was 3 or 4 the first time I really remember hearing a gun fired. My Mom and I were swimming in Onion Creek (this was way before it became what it is now and some friends had cattle on a couple of acres that the creek ran through), she was floating in an inner tube and I was on a raft. She saw a water moccasin a few feet from where we were in the water. She yelled over to the bank and Bill grabbed a gun from the truck and shot it. With us just floating there. And it was no big deal. We all just kept floating and playing in the water. So yeah, I think part of it is how you're raised.

[AtLast]

I know the possibility of someone carrying concealed (legally or not) is high. Has to do with where I live. It does bother me because idiots can get riled and pull the damn gun out and... boom! Many kids are carrying and I am very aware of the fact that getting into some kind of argument with them may be at my peril. I don't own a gun and don't want one. i will avoid conflict due to the fact that I know there are so many people around me that do have guns on their person.

I grew up in a hunting family and guns were in my home (rifles and shot guns). As a kid, I hunted. We all took NRA training and my Dad kept all guns and shells locked-up.

Once, I dated a woman that carried all of the time because of the neighborhood she lived in. I was not comfortable with her bringi8ng the gun into my home, so, she locked it in a box in her trunk. But, it was her right to have it as far as I was concerned, just not around me. she had a license, went to shooting practice and seemed like a responsible gun owner to me. I don't want one near me.

[betenoire]

The whole "I feel more safe knowing that people carry guns" thing confuses me. It makes me feel as though you aren't thinking things through.

There is a higher percentage of violent crime (personal crime) in the US than there is here - so how are your guns making you any safer? I would argue that it makes you LESS safe. When I visit the US I try hard not to think about the fact that the people around me might have handguns in their purses - because if I think about that too much I WILL NOT VISIT THE US. It's too scary for me. Like Atlast said - I also, knowing that the people around me are likely to have a gun, avoid conflict in the US. I do not feel safer. I feel intimidated.

People who are super in favour of carrying guns always seem to (with me) use the argument that there is less property crime (theft, vandalism, etc) in the US. But I ask you this: Would you rather have someone steal something of yours...or would you rather get shot? I mean, honestly. It should be a no-brainer.

If someone is going to assault me in Canada, they are more likely to use a knife than a gun. I would much rather get stabbed than get shot - you're more likely to survive a knife wound than a bullet wound.

I have no problem with people keeping guns in their house for hunting, for collections, etc. I do have a problem with people keeping LOADED guns in their house. I have a bigger problem with people keeping loaded guns on their person out in public. It sounds judgmental - but I could not be friends with someone who carried a gun with them because I would be uncomfortable and feel unsafe while hanging out with them.

My father has a hunting rifle in his house. No problem there. He keeps it locked in a cabinet. He keeps his bullets locked in a box in another area of the house. He does not keep the key to the cabinet and the key to the box in the same place. That's the law - except for the thing about keeping the keys separate, that's just about my Dad being my Dad.

Speaking as an outsider: American culture in general strikes me as pretty gun loving. American culture ALSO strikes me as very fear driven. Fear and guns sounds like a really shitty combination to me. Your media and your politicians seem to be pulling together to get you guys afraid and KEEP you afraid. Scared people toe the line. Scared people don't speak up, act out, or make a scene. Scared people strike me as less free.

[Bard]

When I am off duty and have my weapon it is carried so that it is hard to see Obviously when I am on duty it is in the holster on my hip. undercover it is a diffrent holster but still and you can be sure I have my shield with me at all times. We go to the range to qualify at least two times a year and I can tell you the standards are very high. about the only places I can not carry are in fedral building and NYC lol guess they don't think to much of us upstate local cops huh
if you are thinking of anytpe of firearm you should get safty training and know what it can do how to break it down and clean it ect there is a lot of responsiblity to owning a gun. I take it very seriously but by the same toen I will protect my family any way I have to. my daughter knows I have a gun she has never seen it and it is way out of her reach now my girl I have shown my off duty piece and I do plan on taking her to the range to have her familer with how it works after all I do work nights and have to live in the city at the moment

[NJFemmie]

I know the possibility of someone carrying concealed (legally or not) is high. Has to do with where I live. It does bother me because idiots can get riled and pull the damn gun out and... boom! Many kids are carrying and I am very aware of the fact that getting into some kind of argument with them may be at my peril.

Precisely. Permit or no permit, education or not, it just takes one emotionally charged incident to justify (whether rational or not) shooting someone.

I love guns. I love all kinds of weaponry, actually. But I don't have any in my house. That may change, but for now, I have no use for a gun in my house. I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with carrying one around 24/7. I'm not okay knowing someone that walks around with one either.

Not too long ago, someone very close to us dated a military man -- who obviously had a permit to carry guns. Well, long story short, turns out the fucker was a psycho, who not only had legal guns, but a shit load of illegal ones as well - and carried them around with him in his truck. And, he wasn't afraid to threaten people with it, or intimidate people by letting them know he was carrying one. Point is, people who you think should be trusted with guns, really aren't. You might think that is an isolated incident, but is it really? I don't think so. I know too many cops who shouldn't be carrying guns.

Where I do believe that everyone has a right to bear arms, I also think of the dangers associated with that "freedom". It does all boil down to responsibility, but even the most responsible person "loses it" at some point. I can only hope I am not in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Stearns]

It just amazes me when people blame and worry about innocent, law-abiding U.S. citizens having guns. In my opinion, THAT'S what's wrong - misplaced responsibility. Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them?

You cannot wipe out generations who used and viewed guns as a means of survival - for food and safety. Try stabbing a poisonous snake, go ahead. Those of us who grew up around guns were taught to use them only for defense (excluding target-shooting and hunting). It is those who misuse guns - i.e., for offensive purposes - who are to blame, are they not?

Should we have a society where there is no need for citizens to have handguns? That would be wonderful, and I challenge you to find one person in the U.S. who wouldn't want to live in such a manner. The reality is, unfortunately, very different. We absolutely do live in a culture of fear of violence. It is not without reason and evidence as some suggest, however. Rather than condemnation, is there compassion? Compassion for those who don't contribute to such an environment; for those who would like nothing better than to be able to leave their windows open and doors unlocked at night; for those who don't molest; for those who don't prey upon others.

I'd like to know, from those of you who do not believe innocent, law-abiding citizens should own guns, what your suggestion is. What would you do, if you could, to end the culture of violence in the U.S.? This is a serious question; I'm truly interested in your proposed solutions.

[afixer]

Out of curiosity have any of you who have a concealed weapons permit and/or carry regularly had a gun pulled on / leveled at you?


yes I have...once.
I was robbed at the place I was working and I let them have what they came in for, money.
I had a pistol in my boot and could have shot the perp as he left. that is not why I carry though.
I carry when I feel the need, for my safety.

[BullDog]

It just amazes me when people blame and worry about innocent, law-abiding U.S. citizens having guns. In my opinion, THAT'S what's wrong - misplaced responsibility. Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them?

You cannot wipe out generations who used and viewed guns as a means of survival - for food and safety. Try stabbing a poisonous snake, go ahead. Those of us who grew up around guns were taught to use them only for defense (excluding target-shooting and hunting). It is those who misuse guns - i.e., for offensive purposes - who are to blame, are they not?

Should we have a society where there is no need for citizens to have handguns? That would be wonderful, and I challenge you to find one person in the U.S. who wouldn't want to live in such a manner. The reality is, unfortunately, very different. We absolutely do live in a culture of fear of violence. It is not without reason and evidence as some suggest, however. Rather than condemnation, is there compassion? Compassion for those who don't contribute to such an environment; for those who would like nothing better than to be able to leave their windows open and doors unlocked at night; for those who don't molest; for those who don't prey upon others.

I'd like to know, from those of you who do not believe innocent, law-abiding citizens should own guns, what your suggestion is. What would you do, if you could, to end the culture of violence in the U.S.? This is a serious question; I'm truly interested in your proposed solutions.

Saying that those opposed to citizens arming themselves with either concealed or not concealed weapons is not saying this: " Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them." That's a false argument.

Having ordinary citizens (many of whom are not "innocent" and most of whom are not sharp shooters) will not decrease crime or violence in any way, shape or form.

This reminds me of the argument of trying to say that having nuclear weapons that can blow the world up to smithereens somehow makes the world safer. :| More guns just increases the odds more violence is going to happen- simple math.

Having more people with guns- do you really think the "predatory" criminals are going to be deterred by ordinary citizens carrying guns? Personally I think they will be rolling in the aisles at the thought of Sam and Sally Sharpshooter trying to take them down.

It's always quite telling the international response to the gun issue versus Americans (USA variety). People in other countries are just as concerned about crime and protecting their loved ones as we are. They don't see guns as the answer.

[waxnrope]

I think that for me, one of the problems with this discussion are what one presupposes as innocent and law abiding. Historically, this position of what might be called rightness (and whiteness) those deemed to fit in this group and were either given tacit approval, legal approval, or permits, belonged to group who wielded power over others. Those denied such permissions were "law breakers" and others who were deemed "at risk."
As a POC and butch, I was assaulted by self proclaimed REDNECKS on the Burnside Bridge in Portland, Oregon some years ago. As a health care professional without a criminal record, I was denied a permit to carry, despite this experience. I didn't really want to, but like many here, wad frightened. A friend of a friend was on the Police force. He took me to a shooting range. Taught me safety and cleaning, then helped me bypass the prior denial to get my permit. I did buy a gun ... it was stolen@
! But I was both afraid about this and very glad.

Even though there have been occasions, for protection of self or material thongs (even my new kitchen sink wstill in the box was stolen), I never got another gun. I was really angered about the thefts, but realized that I didn't want to shoot some kid over a Friggin sink. Besides, Oakland PD being what it is (and if there were a reason to carry, they would be it ... for ME), I would likely be denied as a matter of course.

Sorry about the ramble.

[waxnrope]

I think that for me, one of the problems with this discussion are what one presupposes as innocent and law abiding. Historically, this position of what might be called rightness (and whiteness) those deemed to fit in this group and were either given tacit approval, legal approval, or permits, and belonged to group who wielded power over others. Those denied such permissions were "law breakers" and others who were deemed "at risk."
As a POC and butch, I was assaulted by self proclaimed REDNECKS on the Burnside Bridge in Portland, Oregon some years ago. As a health care professional without a criminal record, I was denied a permit to carry, despite this experience. I didn't really want to, but like many here, was frightened. A friend of a friend was on the Police force. He took me to a shooting range. Taught me safety and cleaning, then helped me bypass the prior denial to get my permit. I did buy a gun ... it was stolen@
! But I was both afraid about this and very glad.

Even though there have been occasions, for protection of self or material thongs (even my new kitchen sink wstill in the box was stolen), I never got another gun. I was really angered about the thefts, but realized that I didn't want to shoot some kid over a Friggin sink. Besides, Oakland PD being what it is (and if there were a reason to carry, they would be it ... for ME), I would likely be denied as a matter of course.

Sorry about the ramble.

[BullDog]

Good points Waxnrope. If ordinary citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons, does anyone really believe that young men of color or say visibly looking queer people are going to be given the same "right?"

As to police officers having guns, let's ask the people of color who live in Portland, OR if they feel safer knowing this.

[Zora77]

After continuing to read this discussion I have moments where I feel proud to be German - which is a first!

Where to start - or continue? It makes shiver to read "growing up around guns". Every year there are thousands of children and teenagers who get killed as a result accidents involving guns. Apparently those law-abiding citizens do not all come with good parenting skills or the little bit of imagination it takes to figure out what could happen when your five year old gets his or her hands on the gun under mum's bed.

[waxnrope]

I suspect that, just as one item on another thread a poster felt like a hamster, we are spinning around our own beliefs and convictions, the lines are drawn and no one will move or cross boundaries. Yet I hope that we all understand the fear that drives people to have a gum, albeit, those fears may be oppositional, thus noteworthy. I also hope that those who advocate the use and legal permission to carry guns realize that not everyone will have the right to do so :tarot:

Meanwhile, criminals will continue to get and use guns. And SOME police and others given authority will abuse their rights. Ah, an armed nation, legal and illegally armed. Pass the popcorn, please.

[betenoire]

You cannot wipe out generations who used and viewed guns as a means of survival - for food and safety. Try stabbing a poisonous snake, go ahead.

This is a different time. Unless you live in the woods surrounded by bears and only get to eat what you personally kill - you do not need guns for food and safety. You do not need a gun on your person at the grocery store. You do not need a gun on your person at the post office. You do not need a gun on your person at a bar.

I can see how carrying a handgun can potentially make a shitty situation into a deadly situation. If somebody who has a gun is stealing your wallet and you reach for or mention your gun - he's going to shoot you. You have turned a situation where you could have lost your wallet and kept your life into a situation where you get to keep neither. But you're safer, how?

More guns is not going to solve the problem of violence in the US. Guns, handgun specifically, are an instrument of violence. On what planet does it make sense that you're going to stop violence by creating more violence?

[Zora77]

Good points Waxnrope. If ordinary citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons, does anyone really believe that young men of color or say visibly looking queer people are going to be given the same "right?"

As to police officers having guns, let's ask the people of color who live in Portland, OR if they feel safer knowing this.

Thank you for mentioning this important aspect. I think it is not possible to fully understand the discussion on gun laws in this country without seeing it in the context of White Privilege. Here an excerpt from an interesting article by Tim Wise:

Imagine if the Tea Party was Black (by Tim Wise)

(...)

Imagine that hundreds of black protesters were to descend upon Washington DC and Northern Virginia, just a few miles from the Capitol and White House, armed with AK-47s, assorted handguns, and ammunition. And imagine that some of these protesters —the black protesters — spoke of the need for political revolution, and possibly even armed conflict in the event that laws they didn’t like were enforced by the government? Would these protester — these black protesters with guns — be seen as brave defenders of the Second Amendment, or would they be viewed by most whites as a danger to the republic? What if they were Arab-Americans? Because, after all, that’s what happened recently when white gun enthusiasts descended upon the nation’s capital, arms in hand, and verbally announced their readiness to make war on the country’s political leaders if the need arose.

(...)

(To read the full article go to: http://cosmicnavellint.blogspot.com/2010/04/imagine-if-tea-party-was-black-tim-wise.html)

[Stearns]

Saying that those opposed to citizens arming themselves with either concealed or not concealed weapons is not saying this: " Let the predatory criminals do whatever they want, and god forbid someone try to stop them." That's a false argument.

Having ordinary citizens (many of whom are not "innocent" and most of whom are not sharp shooters) will not decrease crime or violence in any way, shape or form.

This reminds me of the argument of trying to say that having nuclear weapons that can blow the world up to smithereens somehow makes the world safer. :| More guns just increases the odds more violence is going to happen- simple math.

Having more people with guns- do you really think the "predatory" criminals are going to be deterred by ordinary citizens carrying guns? Personally I think they will be rolling in the aisles at the thought of Sam and Sally Sharpshooter trying to take them down.

It's always quite telling the international response to the gun issue versus Americans (USA variety). People in other countries are just as concerned about crime and protecting their loved ones as we are. They don't see guns as the answer.

Good points, Bully, but I don't think citizens who arm themselves for protection have any expectations or intentions to deter and affect the overall crime rate. They just want to protect themselves and their loved ones should the need arise. Deterrence connotes proactivity. Guns for self-defense are RE-active; reacting to a situation one is dealt through no fault of their own.

I'm curious, why did you put predator in quotes?

Still waiting to hear WHAT to do, not what NOT to do.

[Toughy]

If I walked in a Starbucks and saw a bunch of folks with weapons I would RUN out the door..........scares the bejesus out of me.........I would also be willing to bet a year's pay that those folks were white in that Starbucks......and I would bet a year's pay that if all those folks armed in Starbucks were black no one would feel safe..........

more to say later............

[BullDog]

Good points, Bully, but I don't think citizens who arm themselves for protection have any expectations or intentions to deter and affect the overall crime rate. They just want to protect themselves and their loved ones should the need arise. Deterrence connotes proactivity. Guns for self-defense are RE-active; reacting to a situation one is dealt through no fault of their own.

I'm curious, why did you put predator in quotes?

Still waiting to hear WHAT to do, not what NOT to do.

Well I agree with you that guns for self-defense is re-active not proactive and will not result in deterrence. I have heard many gun proponents say that gun ownership by ordinary citizens will lead to a decrease in crime, and I find that idea to be ludicrous.

I have also read several times that many (perhaps a majority but I am not sure) of crimes committed where a gun was involved that the gun was stolen. So again, having more guns in circulation is going to help how?

Certainly there are some responsible people such as yourself who would only use a gun if really, really you felt it necessary to protect yourself, wife or other loved ones. I am sure you would use good judgment and if you were to have a gun I would assume you would make sure you knew how to use it.

Do I think the majority of ordinary citizens if they were to have guns would operate in this manner? No I do not. Look at how people use their cell phones while driving (hello a moving vehicle can kill people, I don't think chatting to your friends while driving is a real responsible thing to do).

Even if used responsibly, what are the chances of an ordinary citizen armed with a gun being really able to effectively protect themselves against an armed criminal who knows going in what they are doing and the ordinary citizen is caught off guard? Also, don't armed criminals often work in groups, rather than as one person? I think people watch way too many violent cops and robbers shows and think they can be a hero. I am sure there are some wonderful exceptions to this.

As to putting quotes around predatory, I think I was off put by the whole innocent citizen thing so probably that was just unnecessary of me. There are armed violent criminals who are predatory. I think having more and more people armed with guns and more guns in circulation will just produce more of them.

My first step is make guns really, really, really, really hard to get. As hard to get as possible. Give armed police officers and any other security or what have you armed personnel lots and lots of training of when they should and shouldn't shoot off their guns (which of course is going to require more than just technical training).

Is this going to wipe out all crime as we know it? No. But I sure as hell think it beats putting more guns into circulation, especially in the hands of people who can't even drive their shopping carts through the grocery store properly.

[Stearns]

Well I agree with you that guns for self-defense is re-active not proactive and will not result in deterrence. I have heard many gun proponents say that gun ownership by ordinary citizens will lead to a decrease in crime, and I find that idea to be ludicrous.

I have also read several times that many (perhaps a majority but I am not sure) of crimes committed where a gun was involved that the gun was stolen. So again, having more guns in circulation is going to help how?

Certainly there are some responsible people such as yourself who would only use a gun if really, really you felt it necessary to protect yourself, wife or other loved ones. I am sure you would use good judgment and if you were to have a gun I would assume you would make sure you knew how to use it.

Do I think the majority of ordinary citizens if they were to have guns would operate in this manner? No I do not. Look at how people use their cell phones while driving (hello a moving vehicle can kill people, I don't think chatting to your friends while driving is a real responsible thing to do).

Even if used responsibly, what are the chances of an ordinary citizen armed with a gun being really able to effectively protect themselves against an armed criminal who knows going in what they are doing and the ordinary citizen is caught off guard? Also, don't armed criminals often work in groups, rather than as one person? I think people watch way too many violent cops and robbers shows and think they can be a hero. I am sure there are some wonderful exceptions to this.

As to putting quotes around predatory, I think I was off put by the whole innocent citizen thing so probably that was just unnecessary of me. There are armed violent criminals who are predatory. I think having more and more people armed with guns and more guns in circulation will just produce more of them.

My first step is make guns really, really, really, really hard to get. As hard to get as possible. Give armed police officers and any other security or what have you armed personnel lots and lots of training of when they should and shouldn't shoot off their guns (which of course is going to require more than just technical training).

Is this going to wipe out all crime as we know it? No. But I sure as hell think it beats putting more guns into circulation, especially in the hands of people who can't even drive their shopping carts through the grocery store properly.

Your last point was hilarious, and so true. I, too, agree that there are many people who have no business owning a gun, and they scare me often more than armed predators do. When I policed, I was filled with trepidation more when I got a violent crime in progress, "citizen armed" call than just a violent crime in progress. We would have the dispatcher tell the citizen to put their gun down and away as soon as we pulled into the driveway or parking lot. I had a citizen one time holding his handgun and use it as a pointer to show me the direction in which his house burglar had run. You can bet I had a few choice words and actions for him.

I seriously think on one point someone made that most people have enough common sense to know that you have no hope of drawing your gun if you're already drawn upon. If I were armed and got caught with a gun in my face demanding my wallet, you best believe I'd hand my wallet over. No mention of nor movement toward my gun would I make, because I have no chance of prevailing. After the gun is out of my face, I can decide then what I'm going to do. And, you're so right, that predators more often than not are not acting alone. They have at least one and sometimes more compatriots in the near vicinity watching it all go down, ready to react if something goes wrong.

If we can't rid our culture of predatory gun violence, and people continue to be allowed to arm themselves with handguns, they should absolutely have to go through extensive training and safety courses that involve multiple simulated encounters.

[BullDog]

Your last point was hilarious, and so true. I, too, agree that there are many people who have no business owning a gun, and they scare me often more than armed predators do. When I policed, I was filled with trepidation more when I got a violent crime in progress, "citizen armed" call than just a violent crime in progress. We would have the dispatcher tell the citizen to put their gun down and away as soon as we pulled into the driveway or parking lot. I had a citizen one time holding his handgun and use it as a pointer to show me the direction in which his house burglar had run. You can bet I had a few choice words and actions for him.

I seriously think on one point someone made that most people have enough common sense to know that you have no hope of drawing your gun if you're already drawn upon. If I were armed and got caught with a gun in my face demanding my wallet, you best believe I'd hand my wallet over. No mention of nor movement toward my gun would I make, because I have no chance of prevailing. After the gun is out of my face, I can decide then what I'm going to do. And, you're so right, that predators more often than not are not acting alone. They have at least one and sometimes more compatriots in the near vicinity watching it all go down, ready to react if something goes wrong.

If we can't rid our culture of predatory gun violence, and people continue to be allowed to arm themselves with handguns, they should absolutely have to go through extensive training and safety courses that involve multiple simulated encounters.


Well it seems we mostly agree! I am just wondering under what scenarios you do think it's a good idea. I guess ordinary citizens who are put through the rigors to really prove they know what they are doing? I am honestly not sure how this helps us overall, perhaps a lucky few who are willing to really hone their skills? Even then the gun will almost always be pulled on them first and there is a good chance they will be outnumbered. I am honestly not seeing many scenarios where a citizen being armed (even those who really know what they are doing and are ultra responsible) is going to actually help.

[Stearns]

After continuing to read this discussion I have moments where I feel proud to be German - which is a first!

Where to start - or continue? It makes shiver to read "growing up around guns". Every year there are thousands of children and teenagers who get killed as a result accidents involving guns. Apparently those law-abiding citizens do not all come with good parenting skills or the little bit of imagination it takes to figure out what could happen when your five year old gets his or her hands on the gun under mum's bed.

Zora, when people in the U.S. talk about growing up around guns, they don't just mean that their family had one in the house, stuck up in the closet somewhere or in a nightstand drawer. They mean that guns were essentially a part of life - used regularly for hunting, for shooting poisonous snakes in the yard or on the farm, for shooting predators of their livestock, etc. The children have been taught a healthy fear of and respect for the power of guns. They're not viewed as toys and we were not allowed to use or treat them as such. You were taught how to shoot them, under what circumstances you could shoot, and how to clean and take care of them. The worst mistake a parent can make is to have a gun in the house and think they're hiding it from their kids and, as a result, never teach their kids about it. Children know what's hiding in their parents' closets and drawers and they will be fascinated by and drawn to a gun. If the family is open and instructional, it takes away the fascination away and, therefore, the temptation to get it out to 'see how it works' and feels in one's hands.

[Cowboi]

Just because someone has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, does not mean thay have a "get out of jail free" card. You can't just shoot someone for stealing, or trespassing. Your life has to be endanger.

[Bard]

As a Law enforcement officer and a supervisor I know very well the responsiblity that comes with having my weapon on me on or off duty. I tae it very seriously and yes there are some cops that are Abusing the responsinblity they are trusted with there are bad in all professions and to be honest you will hear more of the bad apples then the good ones. No I have not drawen my weapon and my father who is a retired cop once told me there are many that have never had to draw thier weapon. I do remember well the feeling I had having that weapon pointed at me even if it was only in training and I knew it was clear and safe I was chilled. I just would ask that you not judge us all in law enforcement by those who DISGRACE the uniform and the oath we take.. It my sound simplistc but I became a cop to make a diffrence and my carrying a firearm and knowing full well how to use it is part of that duty I wish it was not how it had to be but..I am glad to see all sides of this issue well spoken and that we all can respect each others opnions

[Stearns]

Well it seems we mostly agree! I am just wondering under what scenarios you do think it's a good idea. I guess ordinary citizens who are put through the rigors to really prove they know what they are doing? I am honestly not sure how this helps us overall, perhaps a lucky few who are willing to really hone their skills? Even then the gun will almost always be pulled on them first and there is a good chance they will be outnumbered. I am honestly not seeing many scenarios where a citizen being armed (even those who really know what they are doing and are ultra responsible) is going to actually help.

Yes, we do agree more than we disagree. The scenarios I have in my head have more to do with homeowners protecting themselves than with carry and carry concealed, actually. The carry scenarios are along the lines of if I knew Soon or I was being targeted, such as a stalker, I would want a firearm to have some chance at leveling the playing field, and armed citizens being able to intervene in protecting someone else who is being attacked. I think there are very few incidences of armed citizens out in public being able to successfully defend themselves against an armed perp for the very reasons you mentioned. But, I still wouldn't want people to not be able to arm themselves. I see much more value in having them pass an extensive training course than to just wait 3 days and pass a background check.

[Turtle]

So, of course it becomes apparent that the situation matters a great deal.

NYC is so jam packed with tense people hardly anybody gets to carry and there's mandatory jail time for a crime with an unpermitted handgun.

And out in the countryside it's a very different story.

And in Hawaii, who needs a gun??

I've been thinking about this in terms of handguns in glove compartments of vehicles.

[MysticOceansFL]

There's a reason that 70% of murders in the USA are done with guns, while only 30% of murders in Canada are done with guns.

That's all I have to say about that.



Thats very true

[iamkeri1]

No gun(s) No way.

The right to bear arms was enshrined in the consitution at the same time that the phrase all men are equal. We all know that phrase was and is, hooey!
Women were not equal, blacks were not equal, gays were so unequal we were pretty much being killed/ostracized when outed. The interpretations of these elements of our constitution have, and are still being changed as we become more modern in our thought. When the constitution was written, people needed guns to hunt, to survive. In most cases this is no longer true, though I do not have any problem with people owning single action rifles for hunting if they need them, Automatic weapons of any kind are scary, and very much not necessary for hunting. The point is, we are growing and changing as a society, and the right to bear arms is, to me, no more sacrosanct that any other part of the consitution.

The text of the Second Amendment is, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In 2008, The (US Supreme) court's opinion made explicit, in its obiter dicta, that the term "militia", as used in colonial times in this originalist decision, included both the federally-organized militia and the citizen-organized militias of the several States: "...

Well regulated meant regulated by government, not by vigilantis, no matter how organized they were. Most State militias have been subsumed in to the National Guard, and The Federal militia exists under the names of the army. navy, marines, and air force. The folks in theses military organizations clearly have the right to bear arms. Other people - this is my opinion folks - another right protected by the bill of rights - do not have the same clearly defined right to bear arms.

Because of the limitations placed on the right to bears arms by the writers of the constitution, I believe that the ability to limit this right is clearly constitutional - and a damn good idea besides!!!
Smooches,
Keri

[Corkey]

No, I don't own a weapon any longer. Yes, I am a sharp shooter, military Law Enforcement training. I fought for the rights guaranteed in the Constitution, the right to bare arms being one of them. Though I support the 2nd amendment, I also support not limiting, but regulating the gun industry, the people who apply for gun ownership and federal laws that keep guns out of the hands of criminals. If we take away the rights of legal gun ownership, then the only people who will have guns are the police, the militias, and yes criminals. The way these last few years have been going, I support legal gun ownership, combined with training on legal usage of the fire arm as well as training for every one in the house hold. I also support the ATF in eradicating criminal guns from the US.
My.02

[Stearns]

No gun(s) No way.

The right to bear arms was enshrined in the consitution at the same time that the phrase all men are equal. We all know that phrase was and is, hooey!
Women were not equal, blacks were not equal, gays were so unequal we were pretty much being killed/ostracized when outed. The interpretations of these elements of our constitution have, and are still being changed as we become more modern in our thought. When the constitution was written, people needed guns to hunt, to survive. In most cases this is no longer true, though I do not have any problem with people owning single action rifles for hunting if they need them, Automatic weapons of any kind are scary, and very much not necessary for hunting. The point is, we are growing and changing as a society, and the right to bear arms is, to me, no more sacrosanct that any other part of the consitution.

The text of the Second Amendment is, "A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In 2008, The (US Supreme) court's opinion made explicit, in its obiter dicta, that the term "militia", as used in colonial times in this originalist decision, included both the federally-organized militia and the citizen-organized militias of the several States: "...

Well regulated meant regulated by government, not by vigilantis, no matter how organized they were. Most State militias have been subsumed in to the National Guard, and The Federal militia exists under the names of the army. navy, marines, and air force. The folks in theses military organizations clearly have the right to bear arms. Other people - this is my opinion folks - another right protected by the bill of rights - do not have the same clearly defined right to bear arms.

Because of the limitations placed on the right to bears arms by the writers of the constitution, I believe that the ability to limit this right is clearly constitutional - and a damn good idea besides!!!
Smooches,
Keri

Keri,

I wholeheartedly disagree with your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. It wasn't written so people could hunt their food, but rather for the people to be able to defend themselves against and regain their rights against a tyrannical government, should one develop. The framers had already experienced tyrannical rule from a government - England's attempts at taxation without representation - so, they wanted to make sure should another develop, that govt wasn't the only entity with guns.

Your other point that militias were intended to be govt controlled is completely contrary to the purpose of the Amendment - that of the people being able to overthrow an oppressive regime. Why would the framers have wanted a tyrannical govt organizing and regulating the very citizens who would attempt to overthrow it? That's akin to having the fox guard the hen house. Militia referred to every able-bodied man in the state - Jefferson's own papers bore that out. The "well-regulated" was for people within their own groups (militias) to organize and train so that there would be a better chance of success.

[Jess]

Out of all the concealed carry arguments that go on, the one that really freaks me out is the debate as to whether CCW's can be taken into bars. THIS really does not make me feel safe at all.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/feb/16/gunsgat16_20100216-131601-ar-8602/

[Cowboi]

Out of all the concealed carry arguments that go on, the one that really freaks me out is the debate as to whether CCW's can be taken into bars. THIS really does not make me feel safe at all.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/feb/16/gunsgat16_20100216-131601-ar-8602/


I know in Louisiana is is illegal to carry a weapon into a bar.

[Bard]

Jut my 2 cents I would never carry in a bar if your drinking you judgement is impaired me I just ain't taking a chance. firearm ownership carrys with it a lot of responsiblity.

[Jess]

I know in Louisiana is is illegal to carry a weapon into a bar.

It was illegal here until this year. I know the debate is going on in a few other states.

[Jess]

Jut my 2 cents I would never carry in a bar if your drinking you judgement is impaired me I just ain't taking a chance. firearm ownership carrys with it a lot of responsiblity.

I totally agree, Bard. Alcohol and guns don't mix. Kinda like my thoughts on off shore drilling. No matter how ya slice it, oil and water do not mix.

[paposeco]

Gun ownership, I believe it's a huge responsibility, as it should be. Too many folks out there just don't have the smarts God gave a goat to carry water let alone a gun, especially into a bar..really? are these law makers that stupid? YES! Here where I live, they're going for the "you don't need a permit to carry a concealed weapon/gun", walk into the gun store, lay your money down buy the gun and out into the world you go...just like that..."cash n carry".. OK give me a drink, a stiff one!. Someone said that 70% (?) of murders are commited by guns...noo they're commited by morons with guns, that's their mentality..these same folks, if no guns were available, would kill just the same..of course it's much easier to kill using a gun rather than a knife..or a baseball bat etc...just this week here in my hometown no less than 5 murders, and 4 out of the 5 were commited by one or more gang members. These weaklings that think they're men, or women, because they pull a gun a kill people. One thing that I despise with a fire hot passion, is gangbangers, and anybody that thinks it's a cool life style is in serious need of good ol'fashion lobotomy. But I digress. I think gun ownership should be a 'privilege, not necessarly a right..judging by the madness and violence in this country that seems to be getting worse by the hour. I'm not one to have big brother all up in my bis but, in this case I think that for the safety of us all, some common sense and intelligent laws should be passed about responsible gun ownership. Too many places have a "blanc check" attitude, and a blanc head, when it comes to this all important issue. (please excuse the typos...)

[SuperFemme]

hxbRm2dS1F8

q9JydxKyTgQ

865Onxt9H2M

PX1pzFSEEHA

KfBoxh3TiMk

Part 6: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 6 of 12]

Part 7: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 7 of 12]

Part 8: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 8 of 12]

Part 9: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 9 of 12]

Part 10: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 10 of 12]

Part 11: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part11 of 12]

Part 12: YouTube- Bowling for Columbine [Part 12 of 12]

[chefhottie25]

i would never personally own a concealed weapon, and in my 20's i was against anyone bearing arms. however, in the last 5 years or so my feelings and opinion about it has changed. it was mostly because my sister came back from the war in iraq with her military issued gun. she is a responsible gun owner and has educated herself about gun safety and maintaince. because of that, i have come to believe that gun owners like my sister do have the right to bear arms. i also believe that we stricter gun laws and a better effort to get illegal weapons out of the wrong hands. there should be an extremely thorough process in place to be able to purchase a weapon. with more safeguards in place maybe potentially criminal minded individuals would not be able to obtain a concealed weapon.

[Corkey]

I'd like to dispel a myth here. The Constitutional amendment for the right to bare arms is the 2 amendment. It isn't up for vote. SCOTUS has made the determination that it is well with in citizens rights to have fire arms. The decision on whether to issue a conceal permit usually resides with law enforcement, Sheriffs, police chiefs, after a background check and the need to carry is documented, in some states, not all, and this is where there is a problem. We need to have all states enforce this so that all weapons are legally acquired and only citizens who are allowed to, have them. Guns and booze obviously a bad idea.

[Jess]

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Db0Y4qIZ4PA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Db0Y4qIZ4PA?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


Chris Rock on gun control:
YouTube- Chris Rock - Gun Control

[torchiegirl]

yes. strap as many to your belt as possible. well, at least two.... but I hear you should always go with odd numbers. *biting lip.... but that would interfere with my knife. wow! what to do, what to do..... truth and sarcasm.