Dating a Trans Person (FTM)

[Zora77]

Since I have ‘transitioned’ from a lesbian to a queer femme I have dated butches who fall on the more masculine side of the spectrum. Currently I am dating someone who did identify as butch when we met and recently started to openly acknowledge that he is transgendered, and feels like a male.

Although I don’t have a problem with this and try to be supportive, I have to acknowledge that this change affects me too as his partner. Some of the things I struggle with are: remembering to refer to him as ‘he’ (which is harder than it sounds because until recently ‘he’ referred to himself as ‘she’); dealing with raised eyebrows from friends when I refer to my ‘boyfriend’ (which from their perspective definitely requires an explanation) and deal with their lack of understanding; wondering what this means for my own identity (does that make me straight?), etc.

At this point he choses not to take T but since he does not pass and is struggling with this issue, I feel that the last word is not spoken on hormones. I don’t want to worry about problems that are that have not occurred and may never occur – but I still wonder about how the use of hormones affects the relationship (I have heard that T impacts a person’s demeanor, mood and could change in parts someone’s personality). On the flipside of that – if he sticks with his decision not to take T, I wonder how his struggle of always being perceived differently than he feels inside will affect him and our relationship.

I have been reading some the discussions by FTMs and transfolks on this site and am hugely grateful for being able to learn from the different perspectives (and would love to learn more from you!). In addition I think it would be great to hear from partners of FTMs, transgendered, transmasulin, etc. identified individuals about challenges to the relationship and how they were overcome. I’d appreciate everything you are willing to share. Thank you in advance!

P.S. Just to be clear - I do not only anticipate challenges and problems! In the big picture the concerns I expressed above are only a small piece of how I feel when I think of us.

[Ursy]

Hi Zora

I've been with my guy nearly 10 years now, he started on T about 5 years ago.

Don't worry, you will get used to using male pronouns - what really helped me was to join a Yahoo group for SOFFAs (Significant Others, Friends, Family and Allies) of FTMs where I could talk about it with others who were going through / had gone through the same thing in their relationships.

The identity thing - well, I loosely identify as pan-sexual / queer femme / whatever so it wasn't a big problem for me, but yes, it can be a sticking point for some, definitely.

As for changes to the relationship, there were many - it's a complex journey our guys go on and it's quite amazing how hormones can change a person! First of all, Kris is much much happier than he used to be. I know there is sometimes a worry about T making a guy more aggressive, but we didn't find this to be the case. He would get moody if his T shot schedule was off, but otherwise has become more emotionally stable. Personally, I think that if someone is not a naturally aggressive person, T won't make them aggressive.

I could write a tome about this so I'll stop now and give you a chance to read this post before it becomes too big!

Cheers,
Ursy

[Isadora]

The second love of my life, the person whom I walked with through his transition, the man who I adore, one of the few people I will actually listen to, the person I met 11 years ago never changed. There were no challenges over his transition. It was not so much a transition as a phoenix experience... he was always there...the essence was and is the same, the body transformed.

Not a moment of challenge around his transition, just love and acceptance. I still love him even though the bastard fed my addiction to country music and southern drawls.

[Zora77]

Hi Zora

I've been with my guy nearly 10 years now, he started on T about 5 years ago.

Don't worry, you will get used to using male pronouns - what really helped me was to join a Yahoo group for SOFFAs (Significant Others, Friends, Family and Allies) of FTMs where I could talk about it with others who were going through / had gone through the same thing in their relationships.

The identity thing - well, I loosely identify as pan-sexual / queer femme / whatever so it wasn't a big problem for me, but yes, it can be a sticking point for some, definitely.

As for changes to the relationship, there were many - it's a complex journey our guys go on and it's quite amazing how hormones can change a person! First of all, Kris is much much happier than he used to be. I know there is sometimes a worry about T making a guy more aggressive, but we didn't find this to be the case. He would get moody if his T shot schedule was off, but otherwise has become more emotionally stable. Personally, I think that if someone is not a naturally aggressive person, T won't make them aggressive.

I could write a tome about this so I'll stop now and give you a chance to read this post before it becomes too big!

Cheers,
Ursy

Thank you Ursy for your encouraging words! It's all very fresh for me and I know I have a tendency to worry too much, so I'll try not to do that and just go with the flow. I'll definitely check out the Yahoo group! If you would not mind sharing, I'd be interested in what some of the changes where your relationship underwent as a result of his transition - in addition to making Kris a happier person which is great. Thanks again.

Z.

[Ursy]

Thank you Ursy for your encouraging words! It's all very fresh for me and I know I have a tendency to worry too much, so I'll try not to do that and just go with the flow. I'll definitely check out the Yahoo group! If you would not mind sharing, I'd be interested in what some of the changes where your relationship underwent as a result of his transition - in addition to making Kris a happier person which is great. Thanks again.

Z.

Sure! Well, first of all, I think Kris emotes quite a bit less. He's less likely to want to talk "relationship stuff" - it was just a subtle shift that happened over time. I have asked other guys who have been on T and many have found that their experience is similar.

Everyone is different though - for example, one of my FTM friends does NOT cry anymore. He sometimes wishes he could, just for some kind of tension release - but he can't.

I've thought about it at length and in some ways, yes - he is still the same person I fell in love with... but in other ways, he is different. You could put that down to other things as well though - it can be hard to separate the changes that are attributable to transition and those that aren't (for example, I have also changed over the years and am not the same person Kris fell in love with in the beginning).

Will think on it some more and get back to you :)

[SFFemmePrincess]

Hey Zora!

I have been with Logic for about a year and a half now. We met on another site like this one and I knew he was trans from the get go. But when we met, he wasn't yet out to his family, co-workers, or really anyone outside of his online social networks and it was my first relationship with a TransGuy. I had a lot of the same fears, concerns, questions that you have.

As far as the pronouns go, you'll get there. I think it's especially hard if he was previously going by female pronouns and now wants to switch to male. It's completely reasonable for him to request that you do it, but it's also reasonable for you to slip sometimes and he has to understand that. It took a couple months for me to stop slipping, but now its very rare, and usually only happens if I am in a conversation with his family because they are still using female pronouns and its hard for my brain to concentrate on both the conversation and keeping the pronouns correct.

As far as your friends and family are concerned, its difficult, especially because they are used to you being a lesbian and dating female identified people. It might feel like it requires an explanation, but it only requires explanation if you desire to give an explanation. It's your relationship and as long as you are happy then that's all that matters. And yeah, sometimes it's difficult to deal with their lack of understanding, or lack of knowledge masquerading as lack of understanding. But you take it one step at a time, one conversation at a time and understand that for some people, thinking outside the gender binary is hard and takes time. As long as they aren't making you feel uncomfortable or being mean, just do your best to absorb the knowledge to be able to educate the people in your life that you care about.

And as far as your identity goes, every person considers and comes to their identity differently. But thats the beautiful thing about it. Your identity is YOURS and you can do with it what you will. For me, my identity has nothing to do with my partners identity. I went down a long road and finally came out the other side identifying as a Transensual Femme Lesbian. I like it and feel that it accurately describes me. I personally do not feel that having a boyfriend makes me straight. I think it does help though that Logic also does not identify as a straight male, and has no desire to have me be a straight girl to his straight guy. He is currently pre-T, pre-op, but even after he will always be queer. There are some guys who go through transition, identify as a straight male, leave their past in the past, and date straight girls. This type of relationship would not work for me because my queerness and queer community is too important to me.

Wow, ok that was kind of a lot, so I'll leave it at that for now. But there is a thread for SOFFA's, so feel free to pop in over there too! Clicky Clicky (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=976)

Also, feel free to PM me anytime and maybe we can meet up for coffee sometime since we are in the same city!

:moonstars:

[MsDemeanor]

Someone might want to mention to you the part about going on T where their sex drive goes through the roof. It can be all sex all the time for a while.

[betenoire]

Hi, Zora. I'm Brandy.

For your question about what it means for your identity....well. Really, nobody and nothing can make you anything than what you are. If you feel Queer - you're Queer.

That's certainly not the end of the story, though. It's a conversation that the two of you are going to have to have at some point, I'd think...regarding YOU and your identity. You do not have to transition (for lack of a better word) just because he is - and he needs to respect you and who you are.

And then there's the T. I certainly haven't dated every transguy on the planet (thank goodness, cuz that sounds wicked time consuming) so I'm no expert. But IN MY EXPERIENCE (which comes with the disclaimer that it's not true for every person every time) sometimes guys can get real self-centred when physical changes start happening. And rightfully so - I get that it's exciting. But for myself...I can only have so many conversations about "is this a new hair?" before I go completely batshit crazy and bolt. ;)

I guess the key to navigating that stage will be lots of talk and boundary setting BEFORE it happens - which I never had the foresight to do. If you can be clear about what you need and your guy can remember that there are two of you in the relationship, you should be good to go.

[Linus]

To add a viewpoint from the other side of things ;) you may want to encourage your guy to find a support group in the area. That way he won't constantly bug you with questions like the one Betenoire mentions. For me, it made a huge difference in my relationship with K since I could lean on others for support when it became too much for her.

You may also want to find a support group for yourself (SOFFA) that is queer oriented. A lot of the questions and such that you're asking may also be ones you could ask others to find out what their take is on it in a more personal setting.

[Melissa]

Since I have ‘transitioned’ from a lesbian to a queer femme I have dated butches who fall on the more masculine side of the spectrum. Currently I am dating someone who did identify as butch when we met and recently started to openly acknowledge that he is transgendered, and feels like a male.

Although I don’t have a problem with this and try to be supportive, I have to acknowledge that this change affects me too as his partner. Some of the things I struggle with are: remembering to refer to him as ‘he’ (which is harder than it sounds because until recently ‘he’ referred to himself as ‘she’); dealing with raised eyebrows from friends when I refer to my ‘boyfriend’ (which from their perspective definitely requires an explanation) and deal with their lack of understanding; wondering what this means for my own identity (does that make me straight?), etc.

At this point he choses not to take T but since he does not pass and is struggling with this issue, I feel that the last word is not spoken on hormones. I don’t want to worry about problems that are that have not occurred and may never occur – but I still wonder about how the use of hormones affects the relationship (I have heard that T impacts a person’s demeanor, mood and could change in parts someone’s personality). On the flipside of that – if he sticks with his decision not to take T, I wonder how his struggle of always being perceived differently than he feels inside will affect him and our relationship.

I have been reading some the discussions by FTMs and transfolks on this site and am hugely grateful for being able to learn from the different perspectives (and would love to learn more from you!). In addition I think it would be great to hear from partners of FTMs, transgendered, transmasulin, etc. identified individuals about challenges to the relationship and how they were overcome. I’d appreciate everything you are willing to share. Thank you in advance!

P.S. Just to be clear - I do not only anticipate challenges and problems! In the big picture the concerns I expressed above are only a small piece of how I feel when I think of us.


Hi Zora - I can relate to some of your worries. My partner started taking T about 3 months ago. We've been together almost 5 years. When we met he identified as stone butch but often passed as male. I've always dated butches but I id as lesbian and still do. When Rufus decided to go on T I was not surprised as he always felt male or would sometimes say he was neither male or female but his sense of gender and his body was always male in some degree or another. His sense of gender was never female. He had also had top surgery before we met. So going on T was not like a bolt out of the blue for me, it felt like the natural next step.

I've read through all the posts here and can connect with just about all of them. Everyone has the same fears about T. What will change physically, what are the negatives, what about MY identity and so on. We talked about all these things before T. Some of the physical changes are happening. I laughed when I read Betenoire's post about hair. Every hair gets examined and talked about. Last night I had to stare at his knuckles while he groaned about knuckle hair, thinning head hair, and sprouting chin hair. :) Then someone mentioned the increased sex drive. Yep, way increased. Not that I'm complaining. As for mood, I've not noticed any difference so far and all his quirks are still in place. So personality hasn't changed at this point.

In terms of myself it feels odd to be perceived as heterosexual by the outside world, but since he is so masculine anyway we were perceived this way most of the time before T. So I suppose this hasn't changed in any way.

I had all the same questions and worries you have now. A lot of those questions and worries have gone away as I've realized that T does not change things in a bad way but for us, only in a good way and that many of the fears were just that and have never been realized.

And don't worry about the pronoun change. I slip too but I'm getting better. In fact, he slipped the other day and referred to himself as she. Its just use and time. What once felt strange to say, will eventually just come natrually.

Melissa

[Isadora]

Someone might want to mention to you the part about going on T where their sex drive goes through the roof. It can be all sex all the time for a while.

This is a challenge? LOL I love a good challenge. :tea:

[Jet]

I didn't realize being trans or in transition is such a hassle to partners.

[Melissa]

I didn't realize being trans or in transition is such a hassle to partners.

Jet- I'm not reading anyone's post as saying it is a hassle. I think you have grossly misunderstood my post that I made earlier. I am just writing to say in no way was my post meant to imply what you are charging here. Nor do I think anyone else's post implies this.

Melissa

[Isadora]

I didn't realize being trans or in transition is such a hassle to partners.

Seriously, I don't think it is a hassle. I think what it does is make you look at your old paradigms of how you feel about your self, how you feel about men and learning to accept the changes that come along with any paradigm shift in yourself or someone you love.

I found it not to be challenging in the changes he went through but I did look at myself differently. In that wow, I felt comfortable, I felt cherished and respected as a partner, I felt honoured to be part of his life. I still do. I learned so much about him and so much about me. I learned about integrity and honesty. I learned that my "labels" for myself, the names I used to id flowed more graciously into my life and I changed, I transformed with him.

I used to watch him when we checked into hotels. The painful expression of having to explain why the ID did not meet the 6' man that was standing before her. When that changed there was a broadening of comfort, a hallelujah of joy and I just wanted to throw my arms in the air and dance like I was in some kind of musical.

Do I get seen as another woman with her man. Why, yes I probably did and do. Do I care? No, I just wanted my man. I just wanted to see the smile that started from his heart and shows so bright in his eyes.

To me, this is not a hassle.

[Melissa]

Seriously, I don't think it is a hassle. I think what it does is make you look at your old paradigms of how you feel about your self, how you feel about men and learning to accept the changes that come along with any paradigm shift in yourself or someone you love.

I found it not to be challenging in the changes he went through but I did look at myself differently. In that wow, I felt comfortable, I felt cherished and respected as a partner, I felt honoured to be part of his life. I still do. I learned so much about him and so much about me. I learned about integrity and honesty. I learned that my "labels" for myself, the names I used to id flowed more graciously into my life and I changed, I transformed with him.

I used to watch him when we checked into hotels. The painful expression of having to explain why the ID did not meet the 6' man that was standing before her. When that changed there was a broadening of comfort, a hallelujah of joy and I just wanted to throw my arms in the air and dance like I was in some kind of musical.

Do I get seen as another woman with her man. Why, yes I probably did and do. Do I care? No, I just wanted my man. I just wanted to see the smile that started from his heart and shown so bright in his eyes.

To me, this is not a hassle.



Great post. It really does make you think about gender, identity, sexuality, relationships. It opens up a whole new point of view and its been very welcomed. I think we go on this journey with our partners and share many of their fears and hopes and also enjoy all the positives. For me, there have been no negatives.

Melissa

[julieisafemme]

Hi Zora. There is a lot of support for partners in San Francisco. I go to a once a month meeting there and I will send you the information on that. It is hugely helpful to me.

I met my partner almost two years ago. He had been on T for 6 months. I have always related to him as he so that was not an issue for me. The change physically, emotionally and spiritually for him has been quite an experience. I can relate to all the things other partners have posted. I have spent a lot of time considering my own gender and his. I have read a lot of books on the subject. We also went to the Gender Spectrum conference in Seattle last year. I highly recommend that. The next one is in 2011.

The whole identity thing is kind of a can of worms for me. Both my partner and I are happy and comfortable to identify as Queer. We can parse it down from there but we are Queer and my partner is not in the closet about his gender. Not that this is a bad thing. Just a choice he has made and that I am fine with as well.

The most tiresome aspect of his transition has been explaning it to others. If you can, set boundaries around that. It took me a year before I realized that I do not have to answer everyone's questions! That took a huge burden off me.

[PearlsNLace]

Im so glad you have found us.

I have been with a few guys, in varying stages of transition. Some, I have casually dated. 2, have been partners. My fiance just got his prescription for T, and due to the fact that its going through an online pharmacy, literally the change is in the mail. :)

I did not struggle with pronouns when I have dated transguys. But, as a mother to a transwoman (my former foster child is almost 22years old) I have found it difficult to speak of the past. In OUR past, my storys are of who HE was, what HE did. It can be difficult to share without sharing more than is needed. There are people I am sure who wonder why I always talk about my sons past, and whats going on with my daughters future. I find today that I explain details on an as needed basis. My needs, I might add, not any one elses needs.

Each guy will handle his transition uniquely. One guy I dated got very enthusiastic about every facial hair that grew, and frequently used my masquera or eyelash dye to make them stand out. And wanted me to celebrate with each new hair. Ive met guys who have chosen to stay clean shaven throughout even their early journey with T. Voice changes, fat pad changes, all of these will have a different meaning for each person.
And, I know some guys who do NOT start T, and there are a host of reasons for that. And then there are the challenges of binding the chest vs surgery, or is that a big deal at all? It isnt at all for 2 men I know- one whos chest is clearly evident (while sporting a full beard) and one guy who binds enough that it just doesnt show and he passes without comment.

Is it a hassle to go through this? Honestly (to Jet) it can be for me. But that has more to do with what the quality of the RELATIONSHIP Im having with the person at the time. And the individuals maturity and personality pre T is a big deal. If the only social conversation the guy Im dating seems to be able to have is about gender, his transition, the way the world reacts differently as he begins to pass, and more about HIM, then, well, truth is his transition is probably just exacerbating the features that were allready there, like being a boring self absorbed pain in the ass. Im not saying that transition isnt a big deal, because it is. But I have found that for a early transitioning relationship to thrive there needs to be other things that also take precidence in focus. Interests that do NOT revolve around transition are vital.

I have often dealt with the "does this make you straight" question. For me, I feel it just reaffirms just how queer I am. Im so queer, you cant tell unless you know a LOT about my sex practices, and there are just a thousand things you really dont need to know, if your still asking me if Im straight now. This is my newest come back, and I am by no means an expert. Quippy comebacks have been usefull for me. But it depends on the mood Im in, and the setting/the relationship with the asker that I have, and what my needs are.

I keep bringing up needs. There is a reason. As I was first getting into a relationship with a guy in early transition, it was at a time I was not clear on what my needs where. Nor did I have the self esteem to realize it was ok to have needs if they were in opposition to someone elses needs. I hadnt learned to voice them, I didnt know that comprimises could be made. I just gave in. Gave energy, gave time, gave money, and gave a lot of emotion to someone elses needs. That was my part in creating a bad situation. I learned a whole hell of a lot by that, and do not regret that part of my journey today. What I know now, a few years later is that 1) i have needs 2) I can communicate those needs 3) I can listen to others needs 4) I can help us both get our needs met (often. Sometimes not, and when that happens, it sucks, but the communication keeps going.) These lessons helped me have a really solid relationship begin with someone else. And Im happily engaged to Paphigleo today.

Since some have allready addressed emotional demeanor and personality issues, Im only going to add what I havent seen in the discussion all ready.
Usually, what I see is that T helps a guy settle into his own self. I know thats vague. Paphigleos words are probably more clear, so I will borrow them- what he has seen is that it "chills them out". Clear as mud? Ive seen guys become less, not more, agitated. Now, I have seen the response time between stimulus and reaction shorten, squeezing out the space for rational thought, creating Homer Simpson like DOH! moments. (for those not indoctrinated in all that is Simpson, I apologize for the reference) It is importatant for testosterone levels to be regulated. When a guy is on too much T, over reactions can be bad and its not pretty. My favorite example of this is on a popular movie called "50 first dates" with Drew Barrymore. The main charachters brother is a pretty comedic representation of what too much testosterone can look like.

This is a journey. No one can tell you what the true destination will be. So find some friends who love you, who SEE YOU, and know that your need for information and support is VALID. Again, Im glad you found US.

Pearls

[betenoire]

Is it a hassle to go through this? Honestly (to Jet) it can be for me. But that has more to do with what the quality of the RELATIONSHIP Im having with the person at the time. And the individuals maturity and personality pre T is a big deal. If the only social conversation the guy Im dating seems to be able to have is about gender, his transition, the way the world reacts differently as he begins to pass, and more about HIM, then, well, truth is his transition is probably just exacerbating the features that were allready there, like being a boring self absorbed pain in the ass. Im not saying that transition isnt a big deal, because it is. But I have found that for a early transitioning relationship to thrive there needs to be other things that also take precidence in focus. Interests that do NOT revolve around transition are vital.

This needs repeating.

Remember: You are NOT a bad person if you want to talk about something other than his transition. You are NOT unsupportive if you want to talk about something other than his transition. You are NOT a giant transphobe meaniehead if you want to talk about something other than his transition.

I'm not saying it's normal to never want to talk about your guy's new hair. I'm just saying that you're a person too and you still deserve to talk about what happened at work today, that the phonebill is due tomorrow, what you both should have for dinner, etc.

If you don't take care of you, if you don't make sure that you're BOTH taking care of your relationship - you're going to end up wicked unhappy, resentful, and maybe feel a lot ripped off.

[firie]

What a great thread! Thanks Zora!

I went about thanking everyone before I could rep, but truly to those posting, I have really appreciated what has been shared here.

I have to say that Dylan's transition has quite happily been mine, and we have grown together in every minute of it. I have learned alongside him, and have grown in ways that I did not expect.

Dylan has been on T for over a year. This has been a really smooth, enjoyable experience for both of us. I love every little hair (new or doomed to fall out) on him (and I know in some relationships there needs to be boundary there, certainly) and so I have loved every change that has come about. He talks a lot about it, but so do I, and we are always talking to each other.

As for identity, I have never identified as a lesbian, and find queer the best fit for me at this point in time. As far as navigating in the world, I agree with Julie for the most part, that explaining things can be tiresome, but I am really developing a confidence in educating people. I really don't care what most people think. I am the queer girl who dates the trans guy at work. People are social worky enough there to get that whether they ever understand pronouns. They might judge me privately but I am too good at my job to be openly discriminated against. And if I was, I would sue.

T has been joyous, honestly. I give Dylan his shots weekly and there is something wonderful about shooting the shit into his ass--kind of a pay back for his transgressions throughout the week. Teehee.

We read a lot. One thing that might be helpful to you, Zora and partner, is youtube. Guys videotape their experiences to share and some walk through this each week, or month, for a year or so. I have to say that this was so informative for me and really salute the guys who share this information.

I have really found--and others may have as well--that I enjoy being a member of the trans community as a SOFFA, and the more I learn and become a part of it, I value its place and worth in my life. I identify as queer, but feel to be an actual part of the trans community, as a SOFFA. I have no issue with saying that if I were to situate myself in the acronym of GLBT, I would be in that T. I feel most at home in that place now.

I also think often that when we have these conversations there is a great fear (and naturally) of loss, yet I have found quite the opposite, and particularly with respect to community. I have often found in conversations a worry and fear of losing a sense of community--in that, well, if you are femme/lesbian/butch and partnering with a guy, you are straight! or you are totally without queer community! or you are a weirdo! or you are totally no longer a lesbian! or if you are butch and partnering with a guy, you're a fag! or what are you any way?!?!?! That's gross--any one who questions you in where you stand has issues, yanno? Why should they really, truly care so long as you are happy?

I think personally that there is something to embrace in growing in community--particularly if a couple is comfortable in the trans community--in the sense of going to events, celebrations, political things, groups, marches, camps, etc (its understandable if they are not--as sometimes this might complicate passing), but it is immensely diverse and immensely strong, and has such an incredibly beautiful and tremendously valid history among those other letters of the "queer" spectrum.

I do advise this: don't let anyone butt into your love life because they have some need to make you feel weird about it. This is again an issue the person has and, well, its likely transphobia. This goes for everyone, your family, your friends, your community. If you love this person and life is happy on a daily basis, enjoy that immensely and tell everyone else to go to hell. I also advise that NO ONE has the right to judge your sex life in this relationship, ask you questions about it when you don't feel comfortable answering, or make you feel that you are somehow controlled by his transition (and this is in no way in any reference to what Bet said--just want to caveat there). When I say this, I mean specifically where a person transphobically assumes that his transition somehow is damaging to you just because of what it is.

I will say that what has amazed me most is the utmost patience that is often extended by the trans community with respect to the constant poking and prodding of questions and expectations--which is also extended quite frequently to SOFFAS--to explain the nature of what is "trans" to people who are too lazy to google.

My advice is that you only speak with those you like talking to about it, and if you start feeling weird about how a person might be prying or being phobic or just being ghastly (some people think it is perfectly acceptable to say whatever they feel about a transition without any thought as to how it might impact a person), nip that one in the bud until they can learn to speak to you in a way that is unoffensive and on your terms of what is comfortable. I have had to flat up tell a friend at work that I don't dissect my love life with anyone when she was prodding about Dylan and I. People are curious and nosy, and if they are respectful, that's fine. But flip in your head when the questions come and ask: would I ever say such things to them about their identity? Their relationship? Their loved ones? Set up that boundary, hon-because folks can say the darnedest of things!

Also, as many are saying here, T doesn't hit your guy overnight and make him a monster. That is transphobia at work, and it's a bunch of crap. This whole "rage" and "moody" bullshit is simply that. You can pull that up in research if need be.

I would also recommend reading and talking with folks in the medical community--the doctors and therapists out there who are awesomely trans supportive.

You are also welcome to PM me whenever. If you ever want to chat with Dylan and I in any other way, too, because he's a great resource, you just let us know.

[Zora77]

A big THANK YOU to all of you for your insights and comments. It’s definitely food for thought and much appreciated! Also, great advice on joining a support group – which I will do once I mustered up some courage.

I think in parts I’m just very unsure of what to expect because I have seen so many changes in him already since we met about a year ago.

If he decides to take T, it looks like I’d have to deal with possible mood or even personality changes, being perceived as a straight couple, some hairy discussions and hey, if the sex drive would get any higher than it already is, I might have to take some myself to keep up :)

Not taking T, I imagine, must be even harder because you stake out your spot outside of the comfort zone of society and have to deal with constant confusion and possibly also hostility. I’m curious to learn more about how that route is traveled. I can imagine it sucks to be perceived and related to differently than you feel and want most of the time – and as the partner I would cringe and get upset when witnessing this kind of ignorance.

Part of me almost hopes he’ll take T – and in thinking that, I feel confronted with my own desire not to rock the boat or just fit in. But he is concerned about T being associated with a higher risk of cancer and I’d rather see him healthy and not fit in that accepting that risk.

No idea what will happen - but then again, who can ever know what to expect in any relationship anyway, right? And on some level I have always enjoyed challenging myself and others. Thanks again. It feels really good to hear that I’m not the only one thinking about these things.

[SFFemmePrincess]

Hi Zora. There is a lot of support for partners in San Francisco. I go to a once a month meeting there and I will send you the information on that. It is hugely helpful to me.


Can you send me the information as well julie? Thanks!

[violaine]

re: Zorra77's post-
Although I don’t have a problem with this and try to be supportive, I have to acknowledge that this change affects me too as his partner. dealing with raised eyebrows from friends when I refer to my ‘boyfriend’ (which from their perspective definitely requires an explanation) and deal with their lack of understanding; wondering what this means for my own identity (does that make me straight?), etc.



:rrose:

one way to lessen any pressure on yourself, is for him to tell is own journey? i also like what firie wrote! :)

i've been talking to someone recently, a great and accepting sort of guy- bio, but not about my ex and the process of his transition- though the topic may eventually surface, it's a discussion first between them; i'm pretty sure raised eyebrows won't be an issue, but if i see any, i'll get over it- or he will.

;)

[atomiczombie]

What a great thread! Thanks Zora!

I went about thanking everyone before I could rep, but truly to those posting, I have really appreciated what has been shared here.

I have to say that Dylan's transition has quite happily been mine, and we have grown together in every minute of it. I have learned alongside him, and have grown in ways that I did not expect.

Dylan has been on T for over a year. This has been a really smooth, enjoyable experience for both of us. I love every little hair (new or doomed to fall out) on him (and I know in some relationships there needs to be boundary there, certainly) and so I have loved every change that has come about. He talks a lot about it, but so do I, and we are always talking to each other.

As for identity, I have never identified as a lesbian, and find queer the best fit for me at this point in time. As far as navigating in the world, I agree with Julie for the most part, that explaining things can be tiresome, but I am really developing a confidence in educating people. I really don't care what most people think. I am the queer girl who dates the trans guy at work. People are social worky enough there to get that whether they ever understand pronouns. They might judge me privately but I am too good at my job to be openly discriminated against. And if I was, I would sue.

T has been joyous, honestly. I give Dylan his shots weekly and there is something wonderful about shooting the shit into his ass--kind of a pay back for his transgressions throughout the week. Teehee.

We read a lot. One thing that might be helpful to you, Zora and partner, is youtube. Guys videotape their experiences to share and some walk through this each week, or month, for a year or so. I have to say that this was so informative for me and really salute the guys who share this information.

I have really found--and others may have as well--that I enjoy being a member of the trans community as a SOFFA, and the more I learn and become a part of it, I value its place and worth in my life. I identify as queer, but feel to be an actual part of the trans community, as a SOFFA. I have no issue with saying that if I were to situate myself in the acronym of GLBT, I would be in that T. I feel most at home in that place now.

I also think often that when we have these conversations there is a great fear (and naturally) of loss, yet I have found quite the opposite, and particularly with respect to community. I have often found in conversations a worry and fear of losing a sense of community--in that, well, if you are femme/lesbian/butch and partnering with a guy, you are straight! or you are totally without queer community! or you are a weirdo! or you are totally no longer a lesbian! or if you are butch and partnering with a guy, you're a fag! or what are you any way?!?!?! That's gross--any one who questions you in where you stand has issues, yanno? Why should they really, truly care so long as you are happy?

I think personally that there is something to embrace in growing in community--particularly if a couple is comfortable in the trans community--in the sense of going to events, celebrations, political things, groups, marches, camps, etc (its understandable if they are not--as sometimes this might complicate passing), but it is immensely diverse and immensely strong, and has such an incredibly beautiful and tremendously valid history among those other letters of the "queer" spectrum.

I do advise this: don't let anyone butt into your love life because they have some need to make you feel weird about it. This is again an issue the person has and, well, its likely transphobia. This goes for everyone, your family, your friends, your community. If you love this person and life is happy on a daily basis, enjoy that immensely and tell everyone else to go to hell. I also advise that NO ONE has the right to judge your sex life in this relationship, ask you questions about it when you don't feel comfortable answering, or make you feel that you are somehow controlled by his transition (and this is in no way in any reference to what Bet said--just want to caveat there). When I say this, I mean specifically where a person transphobically assumes that his transition somehow is damaging to you just because of what it is.

I will say that what has amazed me most is the utmost patience that is often extended by the trans community with respect to the constant poking and prodding of questions and expectations--which is also extended quite frequently to SOFFAS--to explain the nature of what is "trans" to people who are too lazy to google.

My advice is that you only speak with those you like talking to about it, and if you start feeling weird about how a person might be prying or being phobic or just being ghastly (some people think it is perfectly acceptable to say whatever they feel about a transition without any thought as to how it might impact a person), nip that one in the bud until they can learn to speak to you in a way that is unoffensive and on your terms of what is comfortable. I have had to flat up tell a friend at work that I don't dissect my love life with anyone when she was prodding about Dylan and I. People are curious and nosy, and if they are respectful, that's fine. But flip in your head when the questions come and ask: would I ever say such things to them about their identity? Their relationship? Their loved ones? Set up that boundary, hon-because folks can say the darnedest of things!

Also, as many are saying here, T doesn't hit your guy overnight and make him a monster. That is transphobia at work, and it's a bunch of crap. This whole "rage" and "moody" bullshit is simply that. You can pull that up in research if need be.

I would also recommend reading and talking with folks in the medical community--the doctors and therapists out there who are awesomely trans supportive.

You are also welcome to PM me whenever. If you ever want to chat with Dylan and I in any other way, too, because he's a great resource, you just let us know.

I think Dylan is an extremely lucky guy.

[Jet]

re: Zorra77's post-
Although I don’t have a problem with this and try to be supportive, I have to acknowledge that this change affects me too as his partner. dealing with raised eyebrows from friends when I refer to my ‘boyfriend’ (which from their perspective definitely requires an explanation) and deal with their lack of understanding; wondering what this means for my own identity (does that make me straight?), etc.



:rrose:

one way to lessen any pressure on yourself, is for him to tell is own journey? i also like what firie wrote! :)

i've been talking to someone recently, a great and accepting sort of guy- bio, but not about my ex and the process of his transition- though the topic may eventually surface, it's a discussion first between them; i'm pretty sure raised eyebrows won't be an issue, but if i see any, i'll get over it- or he will.

;)

you go girl.
It's an ever precarious journey though, is it not?

[WingsOnFire]

I love this thread and all the responses. Damon knows I was a little unsure about the transition to being with a transgendered person when we met. However I was madly in love with him and didnt care how he identified. "He" was who I wanted to be with. I slipped in the beginning with calling him "he". He was very understanding and worked with me. I have friends who I care very much for that know. The rest I really dont give a damn. I lost many lesbian friends who just judged me for my relationship. In the end I realized if they couldnt be happy for me then I didnt need them. I made the right choice.

I feel completely natural talking about my "boyfriend" with my family and friends. I dont explain. I used to feel like I needed to explain and quite frankly those conversations with Damon were sometimes painful because I felt I needed to explain and he wanted to know why? I guess then it was wanting to be accepted. I realized quickly that I could care less if someone accepted me or not. If they didnt I just walked away.

I like the advice of a SOFFA yahoo group. I didnt even think of that. LOL I have forgotten the questions now after reading such wonderful responses... Good luck with your relationship and remember, communication is the key.

Becca

[Ursy]

you go girl.
It's an ever precarious journey though, is it not?

I love that - precarious journey (has a poetic ring to it)... and in some ways it is - but oh what a privileged journey it is as well. Not many people can say they've experienced what us partners of trans* people have - by this I mean witnessing a person "come into being" (I don't quite know how to put it) but it's kind of breathtaking. I wouldn't swap it for anything in the world, to see the one you love "growing into" the person he always was but who the world previously couldn't see.

Yep, it's difficult sometimes, and you'll meet up with ignorance (of all sorts: well-meaning, clueless and downright malicious) too - but the alternative - to have him trapped in an existence that isn't his own... that denies him his authenticity - that's the unthinkable part.

It's like that saying - I forget how it goes exactly but something like "nothing worth having comes easy".

Bleh, I can wax lyrical sometimes. But it's only because it's one of the few things I'm actually passionate about.

[Zora77]

I keep coming back to his thread and reading through your responses that all are tremendously helpful. I assume that embarking on this journey will come in many stages and facets that differ greatly from person to person. There is one that I currently am chewing on and not too much has been said about it (maybe because most of the trans folks and their partners who did respond here are on T).

I have a few questions for those of you whose partner is pre-T and pre-op: Does he pass? Are you being perceived as a female/male couple? If not, how do you deal with the issue of being perceived as two women? And how does it impact how you perceive your partner and yourself? Does it?

For some reason this is something that I do think about at this point because R. does not pass. In appearance and body language he is less ‘masculine’ than some female identified butches I have dated and he is more emotional and sensitive as well – even more than me. In my conversations with friends I run into surprised reactions and disbelief (because they all met him as a woman). And when I’m honest there is this part of me that has doubts and I feel really bad and guilty for having these thoughts.

It would be lovely if some if you could share more about transitioning without T and surgeries. How do you deal with the "but he does not look like a guy" response?

This really challenges me - but ultimately I think it's a good thing.

Thanks.

[firie]

I am going to answer you within your quote, so I can address your challenges here specifically. And I know you are calling for some advice from those partners who are with guys who are pre-T and pre-op, so I will speak to my experiences both pre-T with Dylan, because he is "pre-op," since no one has answered you on this.

I keep coming back to his thread and reading through your responses that all are tremendously helpful. I assume that embarking on this journey will come in many stages and facets that differ greatly from person to person. There is one that I currently am chewing on and not too much has been said about it (maybe because most of the trans folks and their partners who did respond here are on T).

Very true, this experience is going to be tremendously individualized.

I have a few questions for those of you whose partner is pre-T and pre-op: Does he pass? Are you being perceived as a female/male couple? If not, how do you deal with the issue of being perceived as two women? And how does it impact how you perceive your partner and yourself? Does it?

Even pre-T, Dylan sometimes passed and sometimes didn't. Even now, Dylan sometimes passes and sometimes does not. This is a big guessing game for us honestly. We recently got pulled over by a cop because we did not know our taillight was out. She called Dylan "sir." This is not always the case, and it is random and who knows. Sometimes in queer space, Dylan gets "she-d" more than he gets "he-d." This is a phenomenon we have yet to figure out.

For some reason this is something that I do think about at this point because R. does not pass. In appearance and body language he is less ‘masculine’ than some female identified butches I have dated and he is more emotional and sensitive as well – even more than me. In my conversations with friends I run into surprised reactions and disbelief (because they all met him as a woman). And when I’m honest there is this part of me that has doubts and I feel really bad and guilty for having these thoughts.

Let me ask you something if you don't mind, what does the shock and disbelief look like? How does that occur? Either way, it seems rude that this would be a friend's response to you. I don't get it, and I find it problematic, and maybe I've been with Dylan long enough that I don't have much patience for a response like that--shock and disbelief. This is what I was driving at in my initial post, as I think this is a tough ground to navigate and one that folks feel they might have the right to prod you in, that might feel challenging at the very least and downright ghastly uncomfortable at the very worst. You are put into the dilemma of being honest and truthful to your partner, not betraying him in his identity and yet at the same time balancing your friends and their transphobia. And before anyone says, oh come on, now, firie, that isn't entirely transphobic, I would say, well, yes, it absolutely is. How dare they not know enough about the trans community to not get it. How dare they question him or you in that, when they should be excited, happy, and joyful with you in the fact that he is finding and expressing himself. Period. Call me a bitch about that, but there is no excuse for ignorance.

I am also wondering if they do this with R. present? My guess is no. So it is all on you in those situations to handle such inquiry, which is again problematic to me. I don't have much patience, honestly, with people who want to poke and prod. I expect, if not demand, absolute understanding and no personal pushing of boundaries. There are a mountain of books, and people can read them. You are not a personal library for people's freakish curiosities.

I would also say that people's perceptions of Dylan and I do not change the way that Dylan and I are, who we are together. I went into our relationship, however, knowing Dylan was out and a guy. He's been male since his birth, regardless of what society deems him to be. I know that with him, feel that with him, and love that about him. And he is my guy, through and through, regardless of the ignorance, however benign or malicious, of those out there viewing us a certain way. I can speak from this vantage point a bit more easily perhaps because I do not identify as lesbian. I can't imagine what it must be like for out lesbians who must constantly account for their identity in this regard. Tiresome, absolutely tiresome. This isn't his fault or theirs however. It's the person doing all the questioning, the one with all the shock and disbelief. That person is the one who should be doing a little exercise in understanding basic measures of respect.

It would be lovely if some if you could share more about transitioning without T and surgeries. How do you deal with the "but he does not look like a guy" response?

I would ask, "What does a guy look like to you?" and "why do you care?" or maybe "well, he is a guy." I might be so smacked with WTF that I'd have to slam a shot of something, or I don't know, just walk off. I have always been floored by some of the comments made, because I think this is more about the person asking the questions than it is about you or your partner. Would you do that? Would you say this to a friend who identified their partner as male to you after he had been introduced female? Would you go there?

This really challenges me - but ultimately I think it's a good thing.

It's going to be challenging, and it can come from all corners of your life, again, the point I was making with my original post to you. There is some sort of pass that people assume they have to ask you all sorts of questions. I put myself in your shoes here, and well, it would kinda hurt that my partners validity and being were being challenged on appearances or some notion of what a guy is supposed to look like. Why do they care? Maybe a response is, to those questions, "why is this even important to you?"

Thanks.

Maybe I have grown too reluctant to entertain people's notions of "trans" because it has been so shocking to me with respect to the audacity out there.

[Zora77]

I am going to answer you within your quote, so I can address your challenges here specifically. And I know you are calling for some advice from those partners who are with guys who are pre-T and pre-op, so I will speak to my experiences both pre-T with Dylan, because he is "pre-op," since no one has answered you on this.



Maybe I have grown too reluctant to entertain people's notions of "trans" because it has been so shocking to me with respect to the audacity out there.

Thank you Firie for your response! I totally get where you are coming from and admire your confident and passionate stance. Unfortunately I feel that I’m not quite there yet and it would feel hypocritical for me to get angry at people’s responses because on some level, as much as this upsets me, I can relate.

Although I do not identify as a lesbian, I did also not go into this relationship with the awareness that R. is a man. Although my response was not ‘shock and disbelief’, I was a little puzzled. I consider myself a very open-minded person and in discussions about people choosing to transition, I’m always the one who adamantly challenges people who do react with some form of ignorance. Maybe that’s why it is so hard for me now to be confronted with my own as this is no longer an abstract discussion for me.

The questions you brought up that I need to think about are “what does a guy look like to you and why do you care?” I feel my own perceptions or definitions of ‘male’ and ‘female’ are being challenged and so is my open mind, which feels rather narrow these days :(

[Words]

I didn't realize being trans or in transition is such a hassle to partners.

What IS a hassle is when folks talk down to/look down on those of us who, in spite of the many challenges associated with being someone who is trans, opt to give them our full support but whilst acknowledging that it's not always fucking easy.

Case in point. My daughter is special needs and requires two people to help her bathe. B. and I have always been those two people, but now, because of B's ever changing appearance (Hy is masculinizing, rather than transitioning), I have to worry about whether or not others would deem this appropriate and whether some do gooder somewhere would get it into their head to throw wild accusations at U/us because in spite of being my daugher's step parent and carer, B. now appears to be a guy. So am I showing I'm 'hassled' if I talk about that? Worry about that? Turn to others for advice? No. I'm showing I'm human Jet.

Words

[Words]

Maybe I have grown too reluctant to entertain people's notions of "trans" because it has been so shocking to me with respect to the audacity out there.

I so hear you on this one.

[firie]

Thank you Firie for your response! I totally get where you are coming from and admire your confident and passionate stance. Unfortunately I feel that I’m not quite there yet and it would feel hypocritical for me to get angry at people’s responses because on some level, as much as this upsets me, I can relate.

Although I do not identify as a lesbian, I did also not go into this relationship with the awareness that R. is a man. Although my response was not ‘shock and disbelief’, I was a little puzzled. I consider myself a very open-minded person and in discussions about people choosing to transition, I’m always the one who adamantly challenges people who do react with some form of ignorance. Maybe that’s why it is so hard for me now to be confronted with my own as this is no longer an abstract discussion for me.

The questions you brought up that I need to think about are “what does a guy look like to you and why do you care?” I feel my own perceptions or definitions of ‘male’ and ‘female’ are being challenged and so is my open mind, which feels rather narrow these days :(

I'm on my phone, so can't post much of response, but wanted to clarify that asking folks to think about their response to your partner is not "angry" in my opinion. Its asking for respect and understanding in my opinion. My issue here is why wouldn't your friends instead offer support over questioning an adult and his identity? He is who he says he is, and that should be the basis of one's response in my opinion. Hopefully that makes sense.

[julieisafemme]

I keep coming back to his thread and reading through your responses that all are tremendously helpful. I assume that embarking on this journey will come in many stages and facets that differ greatly from person to person. There is one that I currently am chewing on and not too much has been said about it (maybe because most of the trans folks and their partners who did respond here are on T).

I have a few questions for those of you whose partner is pre-T and pre-op: Does he pass? Are you being perceived as a female/male couple? If not, how do you deal with the issue of being perceived as two women? And how does it impact how you perceive your partner and yourself? Does it?

For some reason this is something that I do think about at this point because R. does not pass. In appearance and body language he is less ‘masculine’ than some female identified butches I have dated and he is more emotional and sensitive as well – even more than me. In my conversations with friends I run into surprised reactions and disbelief (because they all met him as a woman). And when I’m honest there is this part of me that has doubts and I feel really bad and guilty for having these thoughts.

It would be lovely if some if you could share more about transitioning without T and surgeries. How do you deal with the "but he does not look like a guy" response?

This really challenges me - but ultimately I think it's a good thing.

Thanks.

Though my partner has had surgery and been on T for two years there are still times when he does not pass. It varies wildly as to when this happens. I don't see it as being viewed as two women. I see it as being viewed as queer, which is ok with me. I correct the person's incorrect gendering of my partner and move on. It has no impact at all in how I perceive myself or my partner.

Don't feel guilty for having any thoughts or questions. I think that is fine and you are entitled to that.

The community of transmen and transwomen is so diverse in how people feel about their gender and how they present it.

I agree with Firie in that it is not being mean or angry to clarify questions with questions back or to simply say "he is he" and leave it at that. I have found that the less I explain the better.

[Ursy]

Although I do not identify as a lesbian, I did also not go into this relationship with the awareness that R. is a man. Although my response was not ‘shock and disbelief’, I was a little puzzled.

That was the same position I was in.

I think, for me, the biggest worry was the knowledge that things would change and I didn't know *how* that would affect our relationship, I just knew it was going to (a change as big as this, how could it not?).

I think it's natural (and necessary) that we as partners ask ourselves how this will affect us, but sometimes we can be made to feel selfish if we do voice these concerns.

I also worried a lot about how the world was going to receive my sweetie. I knew it wasn't going to always be kind, compassionate and understanding - and I knew that I wasn't always going to be present as a buffer - which is kinda ridiculous as I'm 5 feet tall and look like a Sunday school teacher but by golly when someone looked sideways at my sweetie during those awful "in-between-days", even if they were just being curious, I would stare them down, like "you want to start anything, you have to go through me first"

Kris once said I was like a vicious attack kitty when in this mode. Lol :playingcat:

[theoddz]

I found the following on another site for genderqueers and thought it pretty insightful. Since some of the Ladies here had expressed some curiosity about us transguys, I thought I'd post it here.

Tips on Dating Transmen

Things Not To Say To A Transman On A Date (or, preferably, ever):

1. "So what was your real name?" Next time I'll tell 'em it was Richard, OK? Don't follow this up with a list of transpeople that you know and all their former names, either.

2. "So you're still like a girl in bed, right?" No. It's amazing how little anatomy determines one's sexual behavior.

3. "Why do you have to change your body so radically in order to have people treat you like you want?" If you're asking this question, your world view is obviously not ready for a transman to play a major role in your life. Suffice it to say that until you understand, at least vaguely, the concept of body dysphoria that has little or nothing to do with culture, it's better not to bother. Your politics will not change him, and it'll only be frustrating for both of you.

4. "How can you say anything about feminism? You gave up being a woman." Yes, but you can't erase 30 years of your personal history and experience. Some transmen consider themselves feminists, and some don't. However, even rabid feminism gets modified slightly by actually living as a man for a time (something I sometimes wish all women could do for a little while, with the reverse true as well, of course) and he may not toe the party line on all things. Even if you discuss these things, even if you argue about them, don't be tempted to call him a traitor, or tell him that since he gave up being female, he has nothing to say about it. Don't disqualify the third-gender perspective; a little objectivity is sometimes a good thing. Besides, as I pointed out to one such accuser, I may have decreased the number of strong women by one, but I increased the number of men sensitive to women's issues (and willing to be role models) by one, and that's an even smaller category. Nobody's come up with an answer to that one yet.

5. "If you're not going to get [phalloplasty], why do you want to be a man?" 9 out of 10 transmen do not get phalloplasties. This is partly because the surgery is way, way less than ideal, and they may not want to sacrifice nerve endings that work for a possible disaster. Frankly, were I a genetic factory-equipped male, I would be downright offended by the idea that my [penis] was the only defining, or important, item with regards to my manhood. We are much more than our genitals. If you can't deal with a man with a vagina, go elsewhere.

6. "But you're such an attractive woman!" OR "I'll bet you were a really attractive woman!" Yes, and I bet I'll be a really cute guy, too - wanna stick around and watch? OR Actually, I was an ugly, mean bitch. Amazing what a little testosterone will do for ya.

7. "Can I see your [vagina]?" Seriously, there is something about a transsexual that makes ordinary people think that they can ask all sorts of stupid questions about ones' genitals that they'd never, never dream of asking a non-trans person. Don't do this. You will be more likely to get a chance to see it if you are polite and friendly and interesting and we think you're cute.

8. Infantilizing names such as "Babe", "Sugar", "Kitten". Oh, come on, what are you trying to prove?

9. "I knew you were one of those. I could just sense it." This is most offensive when it comes right after you come out to someone, and they give you The Look of absolute shock, and then have the [nerve] to tell you that they "somehow knew". Even if by some miracle talent of trannyvision they did know, this is not likely to put the transman of your choice at ease about his passing ability. It will likely raise the tension level rather than lower it.

10. "You're the best of both worlds." Be careful with this one. Some transmen do consider themselves something in between male and female, and would be complimented by that. Others consider themselves men, work very hard to be accepted as men, and would take great offense. Best not to say it until you're certain which variety you've got.

11. "Do you like being . . . ?" This is especially offensive when said to a fully transitioned FTM in a public restaurant, preferably while the waitress is standing right there. A better way to ask would be, "How do you like to [have sex]?" or "What sex acts get you hot and what turns you off?" Don't even start to ask until it's been made very clear that, yes, he does want to do the mattress dance with you.

12. "Are you stone?" Not every FTM came out of the lesbian community and has read his Leslie Feinberg primer. Don't assume that he used to be a dyke, if you don't know it's the case. This term may well make an FTM who hasn't heard it think that you're asking him if he is a piece of granite, or he may wonder if you are asking him for marijuana. Even if he does understand it, he may not want to answer it, if an answer would make you think of him in butch lesbian rather than male terms. "Did you hate being a dyke?" or "Do you hate dykes?" is in the same category.

13. "I know this sex change must have been hard for you." Really? How do you know that? For some people, transition is the best thing that ever happened to them. If we want to bring up our emotions about our TG-ness, we will do so in time. Don't assume you know how any of it feels. Often, when people say this, one senses that it is them who are having a hard time with our sex change.

14. "You're so exotic," or "You're so fascinating," or "I'm simply fascinated by you." Can come across as patronizing. I personally think I'm exotic, but many FTMs see themselves as regular guys with a difficult history. The last one also has a bug-under-a-microscope feel to it.

15. "But you're so short!" Oh, please. Sit down and you'll see how much that matters. Calling your transman "Little Guy" or such terms is also unlikely to win points.

16. "Did it hurt?" in reference to surgery. Duh, of course it hurt. Major surgery does, even when they give you lots of morphine. Don't be dumb. Better things to concentrate on might be, "You're very brave to go through such hard experiences to be yourself; most people wouldn't," or something like that.

17. "Hey, guys don't do that!" or "That's not very masculine behavior." I am amazed how so many people feel that they're being "helpful" in pointing out how a transman's behavior varies from the stereotypical male norm. Believe me, your transman has probably spent more time watching and mirroring male behavior than you, even if you're male yourself. If he chooses not to do a particular masculine behavior, it may be because he considers it personally oppressive, and why should he do it? Some of us, after being shoved into one tiny little box for the first part of our lives, have no wish to climb into a different tiny little box and close the lid. In fact, after years as a woman, some forms of male behavior seem awfully silly. (I'll never forget watching a self-professed feminist woman lecturing an FTM on how his gestures weren't masculine enough.) And if your transman is trying hard to act in a traditionally masculine manner and he slipped for a moment, you'll just embarrass him.

18. Trying to show him how male you think he is by playfully punching him in the shoulder or trying to give him knuckle noogies is not helpful. Any behaviors you might pull on an obnoxious younger brother should be avoided.

19. "When people use jargon, I think they're not being sincere," in response to him using words common in the trans community, such as transman, FTM, tranny, transgender, etc. Let's face it, the words needed to describe FTM sexuality do not exist in most people's vocabulary. If you're going to date him, you need to learn the language. Don't be afraid to ask, "And what does that mean to you?" but don't put him down for using terms you don't know yet.

20. "Hand her the...oops, I'm sorry! No, really, I think of you as a guy, it's just that it's hard to remember...." Pronoun mishaps are the single biggest problem in dealing with transfolk. It makes us wince, and we generally consider all slips to be Freudian. Do try your damndest to get it right, even if that means chanting a little mantra under your breath of "Jonathan-he, Jonathan-he, Jonathan-he likes to rollerblade, Jonathan-he likes garlic," etc. If you do slip, don't go into a string of profuse apologies. Something simple like, "Damn, I screwed up. I'll do better next time," will do, especially in public where there's no need to call more attention to the slip. If you're dealing with a pre-transitioned FTM and it's really hard for you to remember it, avoid pronouns altogether and just go with names, as in, "Hand it to Chris."

If you're dating a fully-transitioned transman, who looks like a normal guy - and nearly all of us pass really well after testosterone and mastectomies - and you get to the taking-off-your-clothes part with him, it's real important not to choke up when finally faced with his genitalia. Some people, unfortunately, do the deer-in-headlights thing when the dissonance of this male body without the "expected" dangling male genitals hits them. The minds of some biomen, especially, may instinctively think "castration!" and cause them to flinch. If you're even slightly afraid that you may react this way, I suggest that you buy Loren Cameron's book "Body Alchemy" and study the photos until you're more familiar with the anatomical dissonance of a transman's body. Believe me, he does not need your negative reaction to genitals he may already feel ambivalent about. He is less thrilled than you, or anyone else on the planet, that he was not born with a factory-equipped penis. The last thing he needs is to have to worry about you freaking out.

Of course, to be fair, some transmen are so dysphoric about their crotches that they will not have sex the first time - or the first few times - or ever - without a strap-on, or their underwear on, or some such. Some will not allow you to touch them there. It's certainly fair to ask whether there may come a time when they will trust you enough to let you handle their genitals, and what you can do to facilitate that trust. However, if the answer is, "Not until after I've had surgery," or "Never, and it's my problem, and there's nothing you can do," then you'll just have to make your own decision as to whether this is a situation you can handle emotionally. Pushing your transman to a level of physical intimacy he's not ready for will trigger his dysphoria and make things worse.

There's a whole continuum of genital dysphoria among transguys. Some are "stone", and will be until they get surgical penises. Some are perfectly happy to use every inch of erogenous tissue they have, up to and including penetration there, as long as you can prove to them that you think of them as men. Some will fall somewhere in between, perhaps wanting to start out the sex with a strap-on, or concentrating first on your genitals, and perhaps letting you deal with theirs when they know you better and trust you. Some are fine with what's between their legs, but if they still have breasts, they may prefer that you ignore them.

The best thing to do is let your transman take the lead in talking about his body and sexuality. If he's shy, tell him you're unshockable (and be that way), but he has to let you know how you can make him feel good. If you really want him, let him know it. Feeling desired is important to us; many of us have secret fears that in getting the bodies we wanted, we've alienated the rest of the world. The gift of your desire for us just as we are, not as you or anyone else thinks we should be or hopes we will become, is the thing for anyone's self-esteem.

-Raven Kaldera

From: http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?48645-Tips-on-Dating-Transmen

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[theoddz]

And the first part of that article from the same page, which I found to also be pretty good. :)

How To Get Your Hands On A Transman

All right, so you saw that cute guy across the room, and you ask your friends who he is, and they all whisper excitedly - or contemptuously - or worriedly - or with sort of confused expressions on their faces - that said Cute Guy was Once A Woman. Perhaps they are even less diplomatic. However, the more you look at him, the more interested you are, except....how do you approach someone like that? How do you get him interested, without offending him? And what if you actually do get him interested? What do you do with him then?

Or maybe you've just expressed your interest to a hot butch-looking woman, and she informs you that there's something you should know. She considers herself transgendered, and she feels as if she's really a man, and she's considering getting her body changed soon to reflect those feelings. And if you want her, you'd better start thinking of her as him. Now. Before you go any further.

The following tips are for dating people who are already clear about their transgendered status, including those who have already transitioned and got some body mods, and those who haven't but intend to. If your girlfriend of many years suddenly starts talking about getting a sex change, that's a whole different ball game, and one that is best covered by talking to SO's of transmen who went through that very situation. They can also help you with a new flame who is struggling with question of whether to change or not. Get their advice. You are not alone.

However, back to that transman who is looking you right in the eye. First of all, unless they're the really shy type, transmen tend to make eye contact with you more often than bioguys do, because they've been raised women, and frequent eye contact is part of female training. He may know things that other men don't, which may take some getting used to, such as when you complain about your menstrual cramps and he looks at you with a sympathetic expression and says, "Yeah, I remember those. They were awful. Have you tried calcium supplements?" Some transmen, to their shock, have found that many women actually like having "feminine mysteries" that they can explain (or not) to men, and they are unnerved when a man already knows all about it.

Or, if you're male, when you make an offhand comment about not knowing what women want when they say X, and having the transman across the table shift in his seat and say, "Well, when I was living as a girl and I said X, I meant this." There's a certain dissonance in dating a man with a female history, if you're not used to it. However, it can give you great insights into the way things really happen around gender expectations.

Your transman may also not know things about being a man that most men just pick up by the time they're in their teens, such as how men use teasing and insults as both affection and dominance play, and he may have a hard time adapting to that without offense. If he didn't have time as a traditional butch who dated femmes, he may not be well versed in much of standard heterosexual courtship and may miss cues. Don't give him hell for it, or even tell him that it's "the expected thing to do". Tell him it's something you like, that makes you feel good. That's positive reinforcement.

You may have to defend your choice of love interest to your friends, if you're dating a person of nonstandard gender. If you're a gay man or lesbian, you may be accused by peers of going straight, or lesbians may be plagued with friends who refuse to see him as anything but female, and deliberately screw up on pronouns. If you're a straight woman, you may be accused of lesbianism, and if you're a straight man, well, you're going to have to admit that you're not as straight as you thought you were. If you really want this guy, however, you're just going to have to deal with the harassing and be firm about it. Real friends are happy for you, and don't get weird about your lover's genitals or preferred gender. Anyone else can just shove it. Repeat this to yourself often.

On a similar tack, if your transman is out of the closet and open about who and what he is, he made that decision for strong personal reasons that he believes in. Don't ever ask him to go back in just for your personal comfort or embarrassment. Conversely, if he's in the closet, don't out him without permission.

One of the most important things about dating a transgendered person is that we really need to you express to us that you see us as the gender we are. If your particular transman hasn't made any body mods and still looks, for all intents and purposes, like a woman, this is often a difficult request. That's where that imagination thing gets used, all right? Concentrate on the things that seem male about him, both physically and mentally. Even if you can't quite handle the mental editing needed to do it, use your imagination and treat it as a role-play. If that seems too much for you to deal with on a regular basis, then he isn't right for you.

Things to do to show him that you do consider him male: Get his pronouns right . . . "my boyfriend", or "my gentleman friend", or "that cute guy" will help. If he wants certain parts of his anatomy called certain things, go with it. (For example, one pre-mastectomy FTM was all right with having his breasts touched, but only if his lover referred to them as "pecs".) But don't try so hard that you overdo it and look like you're humoring him.

-----------------------------------------------------------

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[morningstar55]

wow Oddz... interesting post's.. lol
id quote them but it would take up the whole page.. lol
my x .. of almost 3 yrs and lived together is a TG/Stone.. we learned a lot together.
and wow I sure miss that dynamic type of a relationship.

for me ..... i like just letting the person im dating to just be themselves.
and show the respect on who they are.
I think asking a TG person about whats in there pants is something well kinda embarassing ..... i believe thats a topic that should come from the Tg if he /she wants to bring it up... and feels comfortable talking about with his/her date.
just my 2cents here ..:rrose: :)

[deb0670]

This is really helpful to me. I just came out of the closet in Aug of 2009 and in some parts it was so relieving but in others it was hard. When i finally got comfortable with being a femme and being really attracted to Butches, i find my heart going to an FTM.
Now i was raised in a very strict Pentecostal family and have been very ignorant for the lack of a better word.
I feel like a baby alot of the time just learning to live. I am so thankful that i have a wonderful man to help me learn and knows that i love Him and only ask questions out of pure innocence and trying to make His life better.
I asked Him this question, and i have been asked it alot by my gay friends.. i thought you were a lesbian? why are you with a man?
I have said, i am a lesbian still, just cant help where your heart falls.
Is that wrong?
I have so much to learn still and i am thankful to Ethan for being so caring and patient with me.
Guess i have said enough... prolly dont even make sense.
Thanks
Debbie

[Jesse]

Debbie,

How you personally ID can never be a wrong thing. It is about you and how you see yourself and no one else gets to judge this. :)

This is really helpful to me. I just came out of the closet in Aug of 2009 and in some parts it was so relieving but in others it was hard. When i finally got comfortable with being a femme and being really attracted to Butches, i find my heart going to an FTM.
Now i was raised in a very strict Pentecostal family and have been very ignorant for the lack of a better word.
I feel like a baby alot of the time just learning to live. I am so thankful that i have a wonderful man to help me learn and knows that i love Him and only ask questions out of pure innocence and trying to make His life better.
I asked Him this question, and i have been asked it alot by my gay friends.. i thought you were a lesbian? why are you with a man?
I have said, i am a lesbian still, just cant help where your heart falls.
Is that wrong?
I have so much to learn still and i am thankful to Ethan for being so caring and patient with me.
Guess i have said enough... prolly dont even make sense.
Thanks
Debbie

[deb0670]

Debbie,

How you personally ID can never be a wrong thing. It is about you and how you see yourself and no one else gets to judge this. :)
Jesse,
Thank you so much! That really helps out alot.
I am content with who i am and Who i am with.
My 14 yr old daughter knows Him as a He and she asked Him if she could call Him Dad.
All is right in my world, for once. :)