Stone Butches

[morningstar55]

ok i been searching for a stone butch thread.......
and trying to explain to someone i recently met ..... about Stone Butch energy... and its hard for me to explain it.. lol
i just know I adore them .. lol ...
could use some views from others ....... ty :)

[cuddlyfemme]

Thanks for starting this thread, I was wondering why there wasn't something for Stones
I was trying to explain to a friend a week ago or so what a Stone Butch was and equally what a Stone Femme was. After explaining, she realized that she's a Stone Femme!!
I adore Stone Butches, they totally get my get my pulse racing and my heart racing. There's nothing like an Old Fashioned Stone Butch...now if I could only fine a Single one lol

[asphaltcowboi]

ok stone butch here except i think i have moved on into the transgendered... i am a little messed up on this one.. i am stone.. i identfy as male.. i have been on T in the past.. i feel male inside (always have)
and look male outside but beings i havent gone threw top or any t/g surg i prefer to be called stone butch but closley relate to t/g... hmmm now what?

[cuddlyfemme]

ok stone butch here except i think i have moved on into the transgendered... i am a little messed up on this one.. i am stone.. i identfy as male.. i have been on T in the past.. i feel male inside (always have)
and look male outside but beings i havent gone threw top or any t/g surg i prefer to be called stone butch but closley relate to t/g... hmmm now what?

Now you have all the single Stone Femme's swooning over you ;) I can understand why you want to be called Stone Butch. In the past I've dated Stone Butches who have the same thought process that you have

[DapperButch]

ok stone butch here except i think i have moved on into the transgendered... i am a little messed up on this one.. i am stone.. i identfy as male.. i have been on T in the past.. i feel male inside (always have)
and look male outside but beings i havent gone threw top or any t/g surg i prefer to be called stone butch but closley relate to t/g... hmmm now what?

Hi, Cody. Stone Butch here.

I tend to define Stone as connected to one's style of sexuality - bedroom behaviors and a distinct sexual energy. It sounds like here you are connecting it with how masculine/hard a butch is? I have heard that definition as well, but not in a long time. Am I reading you correctly?

Since I define it as connected to sexual practices, I think that someone can be transgendered or transsexed and stone butch as well.

Personally I am a TG Stone Butch. Not male (transsexed), but transgendered.

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[BullDog]

I am a stone butch. I am not male. Stone butch means different things to different people. For me it is about sexual energy and desire. It has nothing to do with maleness for me. My masculinity also has nothing to do with male. How masculine or hard butch someone is also has nothing to do with male.

I am a masculine female (what butch is to me), woman and lesbian as well as being a stone butch.

[morningstar55]

ty ......
your right i dont believe there is or was any Stone threads.. hope more post .:)

[asphaltcowboi]

Hi, Cody. Stone Butch here.

I tend to define Stone as connected to one's style of sexuality - bedroom behaviors and a distinct sexual energy. It sounds like here you are connecting it with how masculine/hard a butch is? I have heard that definition as well, but not in a long time. Am I reading you correctly?

Since I define it as connected to sexual practices, I think that someone can be transgendered or transsexed and stone butch as well.

Personally I am a TG Stone Butch. Not male (transsexed), but transgendered.

Hope this helps/makes sense.

yes this make alot of sense.. and i am stone.. i have always thought of t/g to be a person who is taking T and planing on having the t/g surg. as for me i stoped the T it made me meaner then a snake and as far as the surg.. i would consider top surg and think if i did the top surg i might not be "as" stone. even with out the T i still shave my face daily but i only have uneven patches.. i truly believe i was born male with some of the wrong parts.. so much so that friends have told me i dont need T. so i guess the question would be : to be considered t/g do you need to be in the process of making changes to your body.. other then working out for build an strenght?

[EnderD_503]

I pretty much agree with Dapper and Bulldog about stone butch being related to sexuality/sexual practices (also I agree with what Dapper said about being both tg/ts and stone butch). That's the way I see it as well.

@cody, taking T or having top surgery or any surgery doesn't necessarily determine how a person identifies. You don't just automatically become transgender once you've been on T/had surgery. There are some who've had all of the above who id as a number of things, some don't even include the word transgender. Others might have had one and not the other done and id as trans, third gender, male, butch, whatever. There are others still who aren't on T, haven't had any surgeries who still id as any of the above. It's not necessarily dependant on what you've had done, but how you see yourself. That's my two cents, anyway.

[BullDog]

I'm pretty sure there are also plenty of TG butches who are not stone butches. So the two may be connected, but not always.

A TG butch and/or male might enjoy penetration, for example, whereas a stone butch who considers herself a woman may not. That's just an example. It doesn't make anyone less or more male/female, woman/man, TG, third gender, etc.

[morningstar55]

about Stone Femmes.........
someone told me once...... that a stone femme could be defined like what a stone butch is ...
but also ...... a girl who only dates stone butchs.....

[asphaltcowboi]

I'm pretty sure there are also plenty of TG butches who are not stone butches. So the two may be connected, but not always.

A TG butch and/or male might enjoy penetration, for example, whereas a stone butch who considers herself a woman may not. That's just an example. It doesn't make anyone less or more male/female, woman/man, TG, third gender, etc.

kind of weird that im just now going threw this at 52.. guess im used to the old days when things were not so openly talked about.. i am stone butch male ID'd do not like to be touched sexualy.. have explored my male side and although small i hate my boobs but love my teenie weenie... but dont touch it!

[Random]

about Stone Femmes.........
someone told me once...... that a stone femme could be defined like what a stone butch is ...
but also ...... a girl who only dates stone butchs.....


Nods...

There are several different ways stone can be taken..

The two that I hear most about are:


Only gives... does not enjoy having certain parts of the body touched in a sexual way...

Only recieves.... does not enjoy touching certain parts of the body in a sexual way..

[morningstar55]

Nods...

There are several different ways stone can be taken..

The two that I hear most about are:


Only gives... does not enjoy having certain parts of the body touched in a sexual way...

Only recieves.... does not enjoy touching certain parts of the body in a sexual way..

.. ahh .. .. i know this.......
and trust me.... as for me........ they can touch me do me.any way they want too.. lol lol .... ok think i just made myself blush....:| lol

[DapperButch]

I'm pretty sure there are also plenty of TG butches who are not stone butches. So the two may be connected, but not always.

A TG butch and/or male might enjoy penetration, for example, whereas a stone butch who considers herself a woman may not. That's just an example. It doesn't make anyone less or more male/female, woman/man, TG, third gender, etc.

Right, I agree with this line of thinking; being stone has nothing to do with one's gender or one's sex.

[morningstar55]

YAYYYYYYYY my truck is fixed and im now just waiting for dispatch to give me a load to do.... :)

[rlin]

this is a timely thread for me... not too long ago at all i realized that i was shedding the ease with which i could share myself...
when i was very young... i did not share me... in my middle decades... say... 25 to 45 i was really ok with rolling over and over and over...
i have never ever really wanted to be fucked... i could stand to have someones mouth on me... have actually enjoyed the hell out of it b4...
also... touch being what it is i enjoyed that too...
the last little while tho... i am coming to the realization that i may be becoming stone... i just do not want to be touched... by anyone... i am very lucky in that i have a pretty good relationship with what some call tantric techniques... i call the a life saver...
i have been looking at all angles of this part of my psyche that is causing me to need to protect myself... and... i think that may be as simple as that for me...
protecting myself...
i love women... i want to never have to do without a woman... but... i think i could do without a woman touching me for the rest of my life...
i just dont want it...

someone weigh in here... would this indeed make me stone... or someone that is having an issue right now..
??

[DapperButch]

this is a timely thread for me... not too long ago at all i realized that i was shedding the ease with which i could share myself...
when i was very young... i did not share me... in my middle decades... say... 25 to 45 i was really ok with rolling over and over and over...
i have never ever really wanted to be fucked... i could stand to have someones mouth on me... have actually enjoyed the hell out of it b4...
also... touch being what it is i enjoyed that too...
the last little while tho... i am coming to the realization that i may be becoming stone... i just do not want to be touched... by anyone... i am very lucky in that i have a pretty good relationship with what some call tantric techniques... i call the a life saver...
i have been looking at all angles of this part of my psyche that is causing me to need to protect myself... and... i think that may be as simple as that for me...
protecting myself...
i love women... i want to never have to do without a woman... but... i think i could do without a woman touching me for the rest of my life...
i just dont want it...

someone weigh in here... would this indeed make me stone... or someone that is having an issue right now..
??

Could be either. That is something that only you can answer, I'm afraid.

For me, being Stone has never been about feeling a need to protect myself.

I just find all the pleasure I need in pleasing the other. That is where I glean my pleasure. Mental orgasm.

P.S. I think it is really healthy that you are questioning which it is, rather than just assuming that all of a sudden you have become stone. A lot of folks would do just that, so that they wouldn't have to deal with it. I respect that and I think it is pretty cool that you are willing to put that out here. :goodluck:

[rlin]

P.S. I think it is really healthy that you are questioning which it is, rather than just assuming that all of a sudden you have become stone. A lot of folks would do just that, so that they wouldn't have to deal with it. I respect that and I think it is pretty cool that you are willing to put that out here. :goodluck:

unfortunately i have already figured out that i am going to be one of those elderly butches that really just doesnt give a jolly damn about appearances... i mean... i guess i could think of something that might bother me... but... i sorta feel like i have a small amount of anonymity around these parts... :|

i like what you said about the mental orgasm from enjoying my lover... that is the biggest and hardest thing i missed when i was younger and had to make myself share...

and...

thanks for the thoughts about figuring it out before i call it... tho i think that if i continue with the way i feel right now i will end up being stone... quid pro quo...

[Legendryder]

Stone here. Have been for as long as I can remember. For me it is in the mind as well. Really don't like my junk touched. .02

[Converse]

ok i been searching for a stone butch thread.......
and trying to explain to someone i recently met ..... about Stone Butch energy... and its hard for me to explain it.. lol
i just know I adore them .. lol ...
could use some views from others ....... ty :)

Its interesting that you should write that there is an energy that is particular to Stones- of course I have heard of those who prefer to partner with Stones but I had always considered that a preference for a certain type of dynamic but had never contemplated that there was a “Stone energy”. Elsewhere in an attempt to clarify what is meant by a “feminizing touch” in the context of a Stone I wrote… self fulfillment comes from being externally focused, by that I do not refer to my external self- but to my sexual partner. Being inside her both physically and mentally is where I find my “on” switch.

The musician reaches that other place when hy brings the instrument alive- together each is able to experience their potential- realize what they were made for. I was not made to have another take me in hand; I was made to be with someone who does not simply allow, but wants, needs to surrender. And in that surrender she allows me to be who I truly am.

While some will equate Stone to simply having personal limits, for me it is far more encompassing- Stone isn’t about sex with restrictions, it is about everything- it is how we perceive the world, but more importantly it is about how we relate, understand, communicate, and connect to another.

A Stone Butch is a Stone Butch- regardless if they are partnered- but without the one who “gets it”, they are not a musician, simply a person who knows how to play a musical instrument.

[DapperButch]

Its interesting that you should write that there is an energy that is particular to Stones- of course I have heard of those who prefer to partner with Stones but I had always considered that a preference for a certain type of dynamic but had never contemplated that there was a “Stone energy”. Elsewhere in an attempt to clarify what is meant by a “feminizing touch” in the context of a Stone I wrote… self fulfillment comes from being externally focused, by that I do not refer to my external self- but to my sexual partner. Being inside her both physically and mentally is where I find my “on” switch.

The musician reaches that other place when hy brings the instrument alive- together each is able to experience their potential- realize what they were made for. I was not made to have another take me in hand; I was made to be with someone who does not simply allow, but wants, needs to surrender. And in that surrender she allows me to be who I truly am.

While some will equate Stone to simply having personal limits, for me it is far more encompassing- Stone isn’t about sex with restrictions, it is about everything- it is how we perceive the world, but more importantly it is about how we relate, understand, communicate, and connect to another.

A Stone Butch is a Stone Butch- regardless if they are partnered- but without the one who “gets it”, they are not a musician, simply a person who knows how to play a musical instrument.

EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!! SO RIGHT ON!!!! :hangloose:

[Gemme]

yes this make alot of sense.. and i am stone.. i have always thought of t/g to be a person who is taking T and planing on having the t/g surg. as for me i stoped the T it made me meaner then a snake and as far as the surg.. i would consider top surg and think if i did the top surg i might not be "as" stone. even with out the T i still shave my face daily but i only have uneven patches.. i truly believe i was born male with some of the wrong parts.. so much so that friends have told me i dont need T. so i guess the question would be : to be considered t/g do you need to be in the process of making changes to your body.. other then working out for build an strenght?

Cody, you could call yourself a pearly duskaforian if you want to and feel it inside. While there might be some folks who will disagree with you, it's not up to them. It's your body. Your life. If TG feels good to you now, then great. If it doesn't fit quite right, like a pair of too tight jeans, then let it go. Your identity is all about you and is for YOU only.

Much luck on your journey.

[CherylNYC]

about Stone Femmes.........
someone told me once...... that a stone femme could be defined like what a stone butch is ...
but also ...... a girl who only dates stone butchs.....

Yeah, sort of. Of course I get your drift, but I'm always a little uncomfortable when anyone defines me by who I date. I'm a stonefemme because of my own personal boundaries. I'm not defined by those I date. I've known femmes who are far from stone, but find themselves dating stone butches. I'm a stonefemme who has dated butches who are not stone, (insert sad face here).

[asphaltcowboi]

good morning too all the roling stones!!! or the kinda kinda not.. who knows

[girl_dee]

Hello Stoners...

I guess I am going against the grain here and saying I don't understand limiting your dating pool by what someone has wanted or wanted in sex. I could never not want to be with someone because of what they want or don't want sexually, I suppose if that would be a dealbreaker for me ( I can't even imagine) it would be different.

I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover..

It all just seems so predefined. I'm trying to understand I suppose.

[sharonsuburbia]

:bunchflowers:good morning too all the roling stones!!! or the kinda kinda not.. who knows

their is just something so fantatically melting about stones - i am pure putty in hys hands - the older i get the more hardwired i am for stoners - (i love the bike) :byebye:

[asphaltcowboi]

:bunchflowers:

their is just something so fantatically melting about stones - i am pure putty in hys hands - the older i get the more hardwired i am for stoners - (i love the bike) :byebye:

nice heels!

[sharonsuburbia]

thanks

i am trying to put up pics but i get message file os tp big - are you going to be around?

[sharonsuburbia]

nice heels!

hat was for you ew are you going o be arounf:wine:

[sharonsuburbia]

i will go to chat

[diamondrose]

Yeah, sort of. Of course I get your drift, but I'm always a little uncomfortable when anyone defines me by who I date. I'm a stonefemme because of my own personal boundaries. I'm not defined by those I date. I've known femmes who are far from stone, but find themselves dating stone butches. I'm a stonefemme who has dated butches who are not stone, (insert sad face here).

Well said. I agree and relate to this. I am who I am, a stone femme, because of my personal preferences and limitations.

[rlin]

i hope that my posts didnt put any negative energy against being stone...
there is nothing farther from the truth in my head...

i just dont want to embrace this until i know for sure that i am not reacting to some kind of outside influences or levels of comfort... or preferences of a lover even...

i just want to be me... whoever that is... truly...

[Legendryder]

We define ourselves my friend. Keep an open mind and find your own comfort zone. It will all work out exactly the way it should.

[Glenn]

Yeh..I agree. Be whatever makes you feel happy and what works for you. I like what you said about being Stone with the Tantric thing going on.

[DomnNC]

Lordy, I never knew there were so many labels applied to people til I joined here, lol. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all either. I've always known since I was in the first grade that I was in the wrong body, I am a man, pure and simple, always have been. No, I've not taken T, not thought about it for my own personal reasons, the biggest one being that I would not put my parents thru that, as I am the only, coughs, sex of this being, that they have. I have 3 brothers as well, all younger than me. My family accepts me just fine being the way I am. When my wife passed away I could not have asked for better support from my parents or my brothers and their spouses, they were all just as devastated by her passing as I was as they all loved her tremendously.
Two of my brothers know what a kinky fuck I am and are fine with it and kid me about it. They used to tease my wife when we'd come down to visit to get a reaction out of her and then tell me she deserved a spanking when we got back home, chuckles.
I just don't go for all the labels, I am not defined by a label or what anyone else chooses to attempt to box me into. I define me! I am me, plain and simple. I choose how I will relate to someone in a relationship by their energy dynamic with me.

So Rlin, don't worry about labels, they really mean nothing. It is how you see yourself that matters. It is how you interact with your partner and how ya'll see yourself as a couple that matters, all other opinions be damned.

[Random]

i hope that my posts didnt put any negative energy against being stone...
there is nothing farther from the truth in my head...

i just dont want to embrace this until i know for sure that i am not reacting to some kind of outside influences or levels of comfort... or preferences of a lover even...

i just want to be me... whoever that is... truly...


I've kept from chiming in because I'm not butch...and I'm only semi stone... grin... soft stone if you would have it...

But...

A lover once told me that it was about feeling safe... and trust...

He said... The more I trust, the safer I feel, the more clothes come off...

He said... for a woman to get into his boxers, meant that that he trusted and he felt safe exposing the part of him that didn't match his inside view... (He was/is GID)

If he was feeling emotionally unsafe or the trust wasn't there, then the boxers and the a-line were NOT coming off..

If you've had a bad break up recently, an emotional trama that left you feeling unsafe to share yourself...

Something to think about....

I think there are so many reasons for someone being stone...

Energy exchange
Personal Satisfaction
Personal Programning
Protection

Human Sexuality is complicated and so very interesting..

Myself...

The more emotionally compromised I am, the more dominate I am... It's not safe to let anyone in close enough to share myself... So I turn it and make it all about them...

The more dominant I am, the less I want to be touched... I'm not even aware of my body and it's physically distasteful to be touched... It's the mindgasm, the taking my partner to where they only dream of going that blows me away... Touching me actually shuts me down and turns me off.. It's all about them, because it's safer for me that way...

The girl is me is crippled.. driven to the point of insanity...wounded almost beyond repair... Almost is the key word... Slowly... oh so slowly... (with the help of an incredibly patent and stubborn butch) I'm doing the work that will allow her to come to dinner and stay for a while...

Sorry.. Got on a tangent there...

What I'm trying to say is..

Only you know why you are the way you are..

There is not a damn thing wrong with being stone... With deriving pleasure from pleasing your partner... (and I have to say... Tantric? hell yes.. please and thank you...) if you are built that way... (personally, I think it's hot as hell to have someone orgasm from fucking me..)or if you choose to be stone...

But if you are questioning, if it's on your mind... Then maybe it might be something else...

Only you can know.....

[BullDog]

As a stone butch I don't see having sex as being pre-defined or there being any less individual variation as to how I would relate to a partner. I don't think having sex with a stone butch is going to be any more or less predictable than having sex with someone who isn't stone butch and there's plenty of room for experimentation, spontaneity and playing off each other's vibes and energy exchange. That's not to say that every person is going to want to have sex with or partner with a stone butch. It's not for everyone.

I do agree with Converse that I don't equate being a Stone Butch with having sex with restrictions. It is much more encompassing than that. For me, it is quite freeing not restricting.

However, I don't think there is one, all encompassing Stone energy or that Stones can just nod at each other and know what one another is talking about- that's something I have seen discussed a number of times in the past, and I don't think that is the case. I think Stone Butch does mean different things to different people. I certainly don't relate at all when people start talking about feminizing touch or relating stone to being male. There are different types of Stone Butch and different personal meanings for it.

[girl_dee]

As a stone butch I don't see having sex as being pre-defined or there being any less individual variation as to how I would relate to a partner. I don't think having sex with a stone butch is going to be any more or less predictable than having sex with someone who isn't stone butch and there's plenty of room for experimentation, spontaneity and playing off each other's vibes and energy exchange. That's not to say that every person is going to want to have sex with or partner with a stone butch. It's not for everyone.

I do agree with Converse that I don't equate being a Stone Butch with having sex with restrictions. It is much more encompassing than that. For me, it is quite freeing not restricting.

However, I don't think there is one, all encompassing Stone energy or that Stones can just nod at each other and know what one another is talking about- that's something I have seen discussed a number of times in the past, and I don't think that is the case. I think Stone Butch does mean different things to different people. I certainly don't relate at all when people start talking about feminizing touch or relating stone to being male. There are different types of Stone Butch and different personal meanings for it.

Hi !

Your post jumped out at me.. maybe because of the time, 1:11 of your post (my own thing) and maybe because I have usually liked your input on these subjects.. I've seen the stone threads take a bad turn because not everyone agrees what a stone is. I liked what you said about leaving room for experimentation! I cannot imagine a world, or sex where it is so limited, dependent on a preconceived notion that I would or would not like something.. each person IS different. There are hard limits of course I realize this.. maybe thats why its called *stone* ?

Stone butch (and stone femme) like MANY words in our vocabulary are user defined.. as it should be I feel. I get confused with the whole thing.

[Gemme]

Hello Stoners...

I guess I am going against the grain here and saying I don't understand limiting your dating pool by what someone has wanted or wanted in sex. I could never not want to be with someone because of what they want or don't want sexually, I suppose if that would be a dealbreaker for me ( I can't even imagine) it would be different.

I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover..

It all just seems so predefined. I'm trying to understand I suppose.

Pre-defined.

If I may....kisses are pre-defined. You know what's going to happen, in general, if you kiss someone. Or do you?

Have you ever been kissed in a way and to the point that your heart flutters and your toes tingle? Have you felt the waves of love or lust eminating off of them though they've barely brushed your lips? Have you been kissed in a dirty back alley, hastily, with their hands twisted in your hair as you were shoved up against the brick wall? Have you spent hours lounging in bed, becoming intimately acquainted with another's lips? Have you expected one type of kiss...perhaps chaste...and been surprised by a lengthy, invasive French kiss? Or vise versa?

Every kiss is different, though it is only a kiss. It's pre-defined. Or is it?

My point is that what seems like putting limitations on intimacy to you is really ensuring that our partners (for the most part) will understand HOW we like to kiss, so to speak.

I see Stone as less of an inhibitor and more of a freeing agent, allowing me to be me and him to be himself, and both of us with the understanding of how we prefer to move within our intimate relationship...and how we like to kiss. :)

[asphaltcowboi]

good morning stones and all who relate in some sort of way... i hope everyone has a great weekend!

[girl_dee]

Pre-defined.

If I may....kisses are pre-defined. You know what's going to happen, in general, if you kiss someone. Or do you?

Have you ever been kissed in a way and to the point that your heart flutters and your toes tingle? Have you felt the waves of love or lust eminating off of them though they've barely brushed your lips? Have you been kissed in a dirty back alley, hastily, with their hands twisted in your hair as you were shoved up against the brick wall? Have you spent hours lounging in bed, becoming intimately acquainted with another's lips? Have you expected one type of kiss...perhaps chaste...and been surprised by a lengthy, invasive French kiss? Or vise versa?

Every kiss is different, though it is only a kiss. It's pre-defined. Or is it?

My point is that what seems like putting limitations on intimacy to you is really ensuring that our partners (for the most part) will understand HOW we like to kiss, so to speak.

I see Stone as less of an inhibitor and more of a freeing agent, allowing me to be me and him to be himself, and both of us with the understanding of how we prefer to move within our intimate relationship...and how we like to kiss. :)

Now that is an analogy I can understand... actually makes sense..

I do think the word itself *stone* may be where I get stuck.. It sounds very solid... this is it, no wavering.. so having realized this is a big help around how I view "stone" ...

Thanks Gemme!

[LostLamb]

Hi there all...Random, these are the two ways I see being 'stone' as well. I'd been a 'lesbian' all my life because I didn't know there were other id's out there. All I know was that thru-out my 'lesbian' life, I was very unhappy about the sexual aspect of my relationships. I've always been extremely attracted to very masculine looking/behaving females, and didn't understand why. My friends would chide me about my taste, and some had the audacity to tell me that if I wanted someone who looked/acted 'like that', I wasn't really gay, and I should get myself a man! I had no comeback because I didn't understand my preference either, and thought maybe there was something wrong with me. But I knew I didn't want a bio-male, that was something I was definately sure about.

It took discovering the butch-femme sites and reading the posts of femmes who felt the way I did, to realize that there was absolutely nothing wrong with me - I had 'sisters'... :) So now, I am very comfortabe in my skin, and have come to the conclusion that I don't have to explain myself or my preferences to anyone, but most importantly that it is *their* problem, not mine.

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for indulging me.

LostLamb

Nods...

There are several different ways stone can be taken..

The two that I hear most about are:


Only gives... does not enjoy having certain parts of the body touched in a sexual way...

Only recieves.... does not enjoy touching certain parts of the body in a sexual way..

[sharonsuburbia]

Hi there all...Random, these are the two ways I see being 'stone' as well. I'd been a 'lesbian' all my life because I didn't know there were other id's out there. All I know was that thru-out my 'lesbian' life, I was very unhappy about the sexual aspect of my relationships. I've always been extremely attracted to very masculine looking/behaving females, and didn't understand why. My friends would chide me about my taste, and some had the audacity to tell me that if I wanted someone who looked/acted 'like that', I wasn't really gay, and I should get myself a man! I had no comeback because I didn't understand my preference either, and thought maybe there was something wrong with me. But I knew I didn't want a bio-male, that was something I was definately sure about.

It took discovering the butch-femme sites and reading the posts of femmes who felt the way I did, to realize that there was absolutely nothing wrong with me - I had 'sisters'... :) So now, I am very comfortabe in my skin, and have come to the conclusion that I don't have to explain myself or my preferences to anyone, but most importantly that it is *their* problem, not mine.

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for indulging me.

LostLamb

i know what you mean lost - i was vry much the same - taking a femme role was seen as anti feminist . all my life even before i realized and even later when i accepted me being a lesbian i was attracted to butch. in my teens there a very stone butch named mike in the neighborhood. hy always had a femme gal on hys arm, when all my friebds were going ewwwwwwww 0 i wast so ewwww and fantasized about being that girl.

it was disturbing back then but obviously i now understand.

:cherry:

[sharonsuburbia]

(f)good morning stones and all who relate in some sort of way... i hope everyone has a great weekend!

(f) good morning oops afternoon - enjoy :cherry:

[Gemme]

Now that is an analogy I can understand... actually makes sense..

I do think the word itself *stone* may be where I get stuck.. It sounds very solid... this is it, no wavering.. so having realized this is a big help around how I view "stone" ...

Thanks Gemme!


Glad I could help.

Hi there all...Random, these are the two ways I see being 'stone' as well. I'd been a 'lesbian' all my life because I didn't know there were other id's out there. All I know was that thru-out my 'lesbian' life, I was very unhappy about the sexual aspect of my relationships. I've always been extremely attracted to very masculine looking/behaving females, and didn't understand why. My friends would chide me about my taste, and some had the audacity to tell me that if I wanted someone who looked/acted 'like that', I wasn't really gay, and I should get myself a man! I had no comeback because I didn't understand my preference either, and thought maybe there was something wrong with me. But I knew I didn't want a bio-male, that was something I was definately sure about.

It took discovering the butch-femme sites and reading the posts of femmes who felt the way I did, to realize that there was absolutely nothing wrong with me - I had 'sisters'... :) So now, I am very comfortabe in my skin, and have come to the conclusion that I don't have to explain myself or my preferences to anyone, but most importantly that it is *their* problem, not mine.

Sorry for the long post, and thank you for indulging me.

LostLamb

Hi, Lamb, and :welcome: to the site!

I'm glad you've found yourself and us!

[DomnNC]

My friends would chide me about my taste, and some had the audacity to tell me that if I wanted someone who looked/acted 'like that', I wasn't really gay, and I should get myself a man!LostLamb

Laughs, I so totally relate to this lamb. I was always told if I wanted a man then I'd find a "real" man.
That's why I don't step a foot into gay bars anymore, screw em, lol. I don't spend my money in establishments where they don't know the term "inclusive".

Welcome to the Planet!

[LostLamb]

Thank you Gemme and DomnNC for the warm welcome. :)


Welcome to the Planet!

[morningstar55]

heh Dom.....
some of my friends straight and lesbian ones...... when they learn of my preference on whom I like to date/ feel most attracted too..... they ask
why dont you just date men then.......
and i try to explain but .... its pointless cuz they dont get it or understand.

good post lamb.. :)

[cuddlyfemme]

heh Dom.....
some of my friends straight and lesbian ones...... when they learn of my preference on whom I like to date/ feel most attracted too..... they ask
why dont you just date men then.......
and i try to explain but .... its pointless cuz they dont get it or understand.

good post lamb.. :)

I've had the same situation where people ask why don't i date a bio guy...i tell them that nobody can make me feel the way a Stone Butch does and leave it at that.

[lipstixgal]

I've had the same situation where people ask why don't i date a bio guy...i tell them that nobody can make me feel the way a Stone Butch does and leave it at that.

I've never dated a stone butch I wonder what the boundaries are and what they are like to date hmmm interesting!!

[cuddlyfemme]

I've never dated a stone butch I wonder what the boundaries are and what they are like to date hmmm interesting!!

I only date Stone's because we understand each other's boundaries. Every person has their own boundaries but to be honest, they all are pretty close to the same

[lipstixgal]

I only date Stone's because we understand each other's boundaries. Every person has their own boundaries but to be honest, they all are pretty close to the same

REally how is the gay community in SC?? Any stones I wouldn't know where the stone butches are in NJ let alone the regular butches here, its amazing that no one dates each other here..what are the boundaries for stone butches??

[cuddlyfemme]

REally how is the gay community in SC?? Any stones I wouldn't know where the stone butches are in NJ let alone the regular butches here, its amazing that no one dates each other here..what are the boundaries for stone butches??

The gay community in SC isn't that great that I've found. As for the boundaries of a Stone Butch, I'd rather one of them tell you...since its their boundaries

[Converse]

heh Dom.....
some of my friends straight and lesbian ones...... when they learn of my preference on whom I like to date/ feel most attracted too..... they ask
why dont you just date men then.......
and i try to explain but .... its pointless cuz they dont get it or understand.

good post lamb.. :)

Where do you begin to respond to questions like that, or should you even bother? I guess it depends who is asking.

I do recall responding when a couple of men, who after spotting me, yelled out at my grrl ‘whats she got that I haven’t?’ and telling them to bend over so I could show them.

I heard a Femme tell a lesbian who had reacted badly at being told she wasn’t her type explain to her that having sex with her would be like masturbation, and having sex with a man would be like being offered a tic tac when you were starving, but that having sex with a Butch was like a ride on a rollercoaster - where the build up was so intense that it was almost unbearable but the exhilaration of the ride was enough to keep her wanting to get back in line.

One of my favourite responses was years ago, when a Femme, a woman of maturity and incredible grace, was asked by a ‘would be suitor” what he could do to have her consider him- to which she replied “Darling if it were as simple as having surgery, I would of course suggest it, a little snipping would be a small price to pay- however, there is nothing can be done. I’m afraid you must blame your parents for providing you with that defective second chromosome. Now please go and pout elsewhere- you are blocking my view to that incredibly good looking Butch”

[Madeyoulook]

I haven't read all of the posts in depth, only skimmed as there are so many. However, from those I have read I see that being Stone means different things to different people.

I'm Stone and if I listed my ID to include all parts of me, then the ID would be as long as my arm. Being Stone to me is simple and quite black and white. It is related to sex and just means that I don't want to be touched in any feminising way. That isn't to say I don't want to be touched at all, but only in the ways that a man would be touched, or for me to feel that way when being touched.

It's also about trust for me, if I didn't feel comfortable with my partner then there are limits, but isn't that the same with everyone, Stone or none Stone. It's finding our own comfort zones. For example, I have had upper surgery, but prior to that I wouldn't let a partner touch my chest as that reminded me of a female part of me that I hated, now I love it to be touched and anything else for that matter, because I am comfortable with my chest in a way that I never was before.

I find that I gel better in a relationship with a Stone Femme because we seem to understand each in a way that a none Stone does, that isn't to say I wouldn't consider a none Stone relationship, because that is too limiting, but I would hope that she would at least try to understand and learn to accept how I am.


Pre-defined.

If I may....kisses are pre-defined. You know what's going to happen, in general, if you kiss someone. Or do you?

Have you ever been kissed in a way and to the point that your heart flutters and your toes tingle? Have you felt the waves of love or lust eminating off of them though they've barely brushed your lips? Have you been kissed in a dirty back alley, hastily, with their hands twisted in your hair as you were shoved up against the brick wall? Have you spent hours lounging in bed, becoming intimately acquainted with another's lips? Have you expected one type of kiss...perhaps chaste...and been surprised by a lengthy, invasive French kiss? Or vise versa?

Every kiss is different, though it is only a kiss. It's pre-defined. Or is it?

My point is that what seems like putting limitations on intimacy to you is really ensuring that our partners (for the most part) will understand HOW we like to kiss, so to speak.

I see Stone as less of an inhibitor and more of a freeing agent, allowing me to be me and him to be himself, and both of us with the understanding of how we prefer to move within our intimate relationship...and how we like to kiss. :)

I love this analogy. I don't think there is anything as powerful or as intimate as a kiss, or as revealing either.



One of my favourite responses was years ago, when a Femme, a woman of maturity and incredible grace, was asked by a ‘would be suitor” what he could do to have her consider him- to which she replied “Darling if it were as simple as having surgery, I would of course suggest it, a little snipping would be a small price to pay- however, there is nothing can be done. I’m afraid you must blame your parents for providing you with that defective second chromosome. Now please go and pout elsewhere- you are blocking my view to that incredibly good looking Butch”

I loved the dignity in this response.

[cuddlyfemme]

Happy New Year Stones!

[DomnNC]

Happy New Year everyone!

[Bit]

I'm glad I found this thread! Thanks for starting it, morningstar! Hello everyone!

I read this quote to Gryph; it had us both laughing hard. I do recall responding when a couple of men, who after spotting me, yelled out at my grrl ‘whats she got that I haven’t?’ and telling them to bend over so I could show them.

Feelin' rather cocky, were ya there? :cheesy:
~~~~~~~~~~

The reason I choose to partner with Stone Butches has to do with energy. When I am with a Stone Butch--dating or not--there is an energy circuit that completes. Two halves of an energy whole come together and the spark, the flow, is exhilaratingly right. I have been with Butches who are not Stone Butches and the energy circuit has been completely unavailable to me; I have merely talked to Stone Butch friends on the phone and the circuit has completed itself in less than a heartbeat after a friend says "hello." It's the rightness, the knowing that "this is the kind of person I am meant to be with," the fit like a hand in a custom-made glove... it's about life, and knowing how to be together in ways that fit both of us at once.

Sexual boundaries are secondary to that. Yes, my sexual boundaries dovetail with those of Stone Butches--BUT if that energy circuit doesn't complete, the relationship would never work no matter how sexually compatible we might be.

For me personally, the energy circuit often completes with Transmen as well. Quite often I discover later that they had considered themselves Stone Butches before they transitioned. Every once in a while it completes with someone who doesn't identify at all as a Stone Butch; then I usually discover that in the kink world, the person identifies as a Daddy.

Since for me this is much more about the energy of life and living together, about the rightness of simply being in the same space together--rather than about observing sexual boundaries--I think of it not as my sexual preference or orientation but as my gender.

[Nightshade]

With all the formatting I don't know how to clip quotes from your message but YES YES YES!!! This is really what it's about for me too. Stone butch or trans... there's an energy that cannot be created, completed or otherwise experienced with any other. I've spent so many years trying to be straight/bi/lesbian/bi... straight...? and none of it fit entirely. I know without a doubt that I am Femme. Stonefemme if that's the proper term for a woman who's always appreciated being a woman who loves those who's masculinity was born into them but not handed to them by biology or society.

Happy New Year all you wonderful, amazing, potent, strongwilled stones!

[Bit]

Hi Nightshade, welcome!

Which editor are you using? If you use the WYSIWYG editor--you can set that preference by going to the top left-hand corner of this page and clicking "User CP"; then click "edit Options" and scroll to the bottom of the page, set the editor you want and click "save changes"--then all you have to do is quote someone and it shows up pre-formatted. You just delete what you don't want from their post and you're good to go.

I like the term Stonefemme, myself. I use it to both talk about my gender and to differentiate myself from Femmes who are sexually stone, since it's so doggoned confusing that we only have the one term (Stone Femme) for two such different meanings.

[Converse]

I'm glad I found this thread! Thanks for starting it, morningstar! Hello everyone!

I read this quote to Gryph; it had us both laughing hard.

Feelin' rather cocky, were ya there? :cheesy:
~~~~~~~~~~

The reason I choose to partner with Stone Butches has to do with energy. When I am with a Stone Butch--dating or not--there is an energy circuit that completes. Two halves of an energy whole come together and the spark, the flow, is exhilaratingly right. I have been with Butches who are not Stone Butches and the energy circuit has been completely unavailable to me; I have merely talked to Stone Butch friends on the phone and the circuit has completed itself in less than a heartbeat after a friend says "hello." It's the rightness, the knowing that "this is the kind of person I am meant to be with," the fit like a hand in a custom-made glove... it's about life, and knowing how to be together in ways that fit both of us at once.

Sexual boundaries are secondary to that. Yes, my sexual boundaries dovetail with those of Stone Butches--BUT if that energy circuit doesn't complete, the relationship would never work no matter how sexually compatible we might be.

For me personally, the energy circuit often completes with Transmen as well. Quite often I discover later that they had considered themselves Stone Butches before they transitioned. Every once in a while it completes with someone who doesn't identify at all as a Stone Butch; then I usually discover that in the kink world, the person identifies as a Daddy.

Since for me this is much more about the energy of life and living together, about the rightness of simply being in the same space together--rather than about observing sexual boundaries--I think of it not as my sexual preference or orientation but as my gender.

Cocky hmmmm…perhaps I was just trying to be helpful :innocent:

I like the “energy circuit” analogy- thank you for articulating it. The discussion around Stone is always interesting; with some wishing to make it a debate about politics and ideologies, and others making it about psychological hurdles concerned with body image and trust. But for me when the conversation involves Stone being a deliberate intellectual choice, or that it is a symptom of something that requires curing i.e. “melting the Stone”, I am at a loss.

It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you, it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident.

Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.

[Mister Bent]

Hi !

Your post jumped out at me.. maybe because of the time, 1:11 of your post (my own thing) and maybe because I have usually liked your input on these subjects.. I've seen the stone threads take a bad turn because not everyone agrees what a stone is. I liked what you said about leaving room for experimentation! I cannot imagine a world, or sex where it is so limited, dependent on a preconceived notion that I would or would not like something.. each person IS different. There are hard limits of course I realize this.. maybe thats why its called *stone* ?

Stone butch (and stone femme) like MANY words in our vocabulary are user defined.. as it should be I feel. I get confused with the whole thing.



I've read this thread a little here and there, and have largely held off posting because:

1) I don't at this point in my life identify as stone butch, though there was a time in which I did.
2) I have always been frustrated by how some attempt choose to define the identity of others. I mostly overcome this feeling by remembering that the ignorance, assumptions and sense of entitlement of others is no reflection on me.

However, I was sort of surprised that by page 4 there has been no discussion of the etymology of the word, even after sassy made the post above.

While many words are "user defined," especially those revolving around identity (like "stone"), each does have a root from which it originated. Stone comes from the term "stone cold," to refer to things that were "very cold." The root of that expression is believed to reference when floors were often made of slate and would become extremely cold in winter. Other examples of this application include, "stone cold sober" simply meaning very sober; sober as most possibly sober.

One commonly held belief is that "stone butch" came about to refer to butches that were "stone cold butch;" the most butch among butches - those who were most masculine (and I pointedly state "masculine" not male). This is the definition to which I have always held. It refers to a butch who is unwavering in their identity, and in their presentation of self; one who would never sacrifice their personal sense of comfort, well being and identity in order to bend to the wishes of others, whether seeking a job, dealing with family, or a sexual partner. This definition, for me, includes no particular reference to sex/sexuality, but allows for each stone butch to define for themselves what their comfort level is and how they are going to hold that line - in all aspects of their life. Technically, that means a stone butch could be quite "free" sexually, including open to anal penetration or oral sex, for example.

I have seen a lot of nonsense over the years in which people have tried to say that if one is stone they would never engage in x, y, z sexual practices, but I disagree that the label includes such rigid definitions, or in fact, that it would necessarily include much in the way of preconceived or pre-defined notions of sex. Further, being stone doesn't in any way necessarily relate to being a top, or a "daddy." These are other, unrelated identities that can certainly be attached, but are not inclusive in the definition of stone butch.

[Bit]

It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you,
YES. Did you hear the click? Circuit complete....


it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident.

This is exactly what I mean, exactly what draws me--the place from which a Stone Butch sees the world.

Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.

One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best--and not just them, but also fits me (and other potential partners) the best. It was Stone Butches who taught me to stop judging myself by other people's (impossible) standards, who allowed me to simply relax into myself and be who I am in all parts of my life without fear or guilt. It was Stone Butches who taught me--just by existing--about that energy circuit, and what it can mean when the connection is made. It was Stone Butches who knew what to say and how to say it, who knew how to rebuild my shattered confidence, who knew how to tell me that I have value just by being.

That wasn't a message I could hear from other Butches, even when they spoke it. I heard it from Stone Butches because of the energy connection between us; that period of my life, that time of great healing, holds my most treasured friendships and memories.

[DapperButch]

I'm glad I found this thread! Thanks for starting it, morningstar! Hello everyone!



Ahhhhhh, Bit. One of the "mothers" of internet stone butch theory (so to speak), in my opinion. Welcome! <tips hat>

[lipstixgal]

I wonder where all the stone butches are in NJ/NY they keep to themselves I think..

[Mister Bent]

<snip>One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best--and not just them, but also fits me (and other potential partners) the best. It was Stone Butches who taught me to stop judging myself by other people's (impossible) standards, who allowed me to simply relax into myself and be who I am in all parts of my life without fear or guilt. It was Stone Butches who taught me--just by existing--about that energy circuit, and what it can mean when the connection is made. It was Stone Butches who knew what to say and how to say it, who knew how to rebuild my shattered confidence, who knew how to tell me that I have value just by being.

That wasn't a message I could hear from other Butches, even when they spoke it. I heard it from Stone Butches because of the energy connection between us; that period of my life, that time of great healing, holds my most treasured friendships and memories.

No offense intended, more a matter of clarification and to keep us all grounded here, but since you didn't, bit, please allow me to qualify that this "self-awareness and self-confidence...this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best" is in your experience, and hardly applicable across the board.

I think it is a huge fallacy to assume that either stone butches or transmen universally possess this self-awareness and self-confidence; that all veils of insecurity and self-doubt have been magically lifted. While this thread is to celebrate the stone butch (and here I will also go on record that the term "stoner" is sort of offensive to me), let's not bestow upon them some elevated status or mantles of higher evolution.

Which is not at all to diminish your personal experience of the clicking of all things that matter. You are fortunate to have that, and no one can take it.

[Bit]

Ahhhhhh, Bit. One of the "mothers" of internet stone butch theory (so to speak), in my opinion. Welcome! <tips hat>

Thank you for the welcome, Dapper, and for that very kind thought. I never thought of myself that way, yanno? To me it was the community discussions that mattered, and we were all a part of that. I learned so much during those discussions, both about others and about myself!

I wonder where all the stone butches are in NJ/NY they keep to themselves I think..

Ah, well, Gail, it's not exactly something that shows on the outside *soft smile* and I think most Stone Butches are private about such things with new people anyway. You could try looking for the people who make your heart sing, and just being open to as many Butches as possible; the Stone Butches I've known have all valued getting to know a potential partner before actually talking about more intimate things.

No offense intended, more a matter of clarification and to keep us all grounded here, but since you didn't, bit, please allow me to qualify that this "self-awareness and self-confidence...this (usually hard-won) knowledge that of all the ways to be in this world and regardless of other people's judgment, this is the way that fits them best" is in your experience, and hardly applicable across the board.

:blink: There is any other possible way to interpret "what draws ME," than that it would be "in my experience"? I think that possibly you do the rest of the readers of this thread a disservice to assume they are unable to understand that I am talking about myself and my own experience, most especially since I have taken pains to make it plain that I am NOT talking about anyone else.

I think it is a huge fallacy to assume that either stone butches or transmen universally possess this self-awareness and self-confidence

Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident?

Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience.

that all veils of insecurity and self-doubt have been magically lifted.

My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing.

While this thread is to celebrate the stone butch (and here I will also go on record that the term "stoner" is sort of offensive to me), let's not bestow upon them some elevated status or mantles of higher evolution.

Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it?

Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are?

How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone?

Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people?

Which is not at all to diminish your personal experience of the clicking of all things that matter. You are fortunate to have that, and no one can take it.

I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me.

[Mister Bent]

:blink: There is any other possible way to interpret "what draws ME," than that it would be "in my experience"? I think that possibly you do the rest of the readers of this thread a disservice to assume they are unable to understand that I am talking about myself and my own experience, most especially since I have taken pains to make it plain that I am NOT talking about anyone else.



Why would anyone make such an assumption, Bent? Why wouldn't people who are reading this thread say to themselves, "well, look, Cathie is talking about the kind of people she is attracted to, Stone Butches and Transmen who happen to embody that kind of self-awareness and confidence"? Why would anyone reading this thread assume that all people are the same, and that if I have run into confident Stone Butches, then ipso facto all Stone Butches are confident?

Again, I think you are doing the readers of this thread a disservice by assuming their inability to understand that I am talking about my own experience--and I believe you are doing us all a disservice by assuming that anyone would think this is the sum total of my experience.



My talking about what Stone Butches have done for me and meant to me does not mean the flow was all one-way; it means that in the spirit and intent of this thread as I understand it, we are speaking about ourselves, not about others. As I understand this thread, we are to speak about our own experiences--and that is what I am very plainly doing.



Why not, if they have done the hard work that merits it?

Why not recognize those who have changed my life and healed my broken spirit as the wonderful people they are?

How could my being honest about the kind of Stone Butches and Transmen I am attracted to, the kind who have helped me so much along my way, the kind who have educated and inspired me, possibly harm anyone?

Why should I be dishonest, and pretend they are NOT wonderful people, when--speaking purely from my own experience--they ARE wonderful people?



I don't know how you meant this to come across, but it seems very patronizing to me. I hope I'm wrong about your intent. I actually very much hope I'm wrong about the intent of your entire post, as I don't like to think that you would assume such ignorance of our fellow posters--or of me.

You are free to take my post however suits you, though I had not one whit of patronizing intent.

Your statements alluded to your experiences, but can easily be read to apply to stone butches and transmen in general. The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification.

I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post. Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did. My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive). If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed.

I do very much appreciate the opportunity to engage in this dialogue, thank you.

[Bit]

You are free to take my post however suits you, though I had not one whit of patronizing intent.

That's good to know.

Your statements alluded to your experiences, but can easily be read to apply to stone butches and transmen in general.

Only by someone who wishes to believe that I make blanket statements, since my entire post--which you chose to quote without context--was a response to this post, which I quote again for your convenience.


Cocky hmmmm…perhaps I was just trying to be helpful :innocent:




I like the “energy circuit” analogy- thank you for articulating it. The discussion around Stone is always interesting; with some wishing to make it a debate about politics and ideologies, and others making it about psychological hurdles concerned with body image and trust. But for me when the conversation involves Stone being a deliberate intellectual choice, or that it is a symptom of something that requires curing i.e. “melting the Stone”, I am at a loss.

It is simply who I am, it is not an activity or a set of guidelines that are followed when the bedroom door is closed- it is who I am when I sit across the dinner table from you, it is who I am when my opinion or advice is sought, it is who I am when I greet or walk beside you. We can only really understand the world from the shoes in which we stand- and although my boots are Stone, they are not heavy or uncomfortable; they instead make me sure footed, connected, confident.

Anybody can change their behaviour; ignoring the fact that I would probably be sporting a twisted ankle within minutes, I’m sure for example I could wear a pair of heels. But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone.

The way your opening sentence is constructed implies not that it is true of only the stone butches and transmen that you have encountered, but that it is these particular qualities which have drawn you to stone butches and transmen (in general). That is a logical reading of the way you actually worded your sentence, which is why I phrased mine as a clarification.

My opening sentence was the word "YES," so I think you might mean the first sentence you quoted.

Converse said, "But as disorientating as that might be to any onlooker, it would be nothing compared to the degree of alienation that I would feel about myself. Can I explain why? No not really- all I know is that is who I am. It feels right and as natural as hmmmm… stone. " and I replied directly to that statement, "One of the things which draws me to both Stone Butches and Transmen is this kind of self-awareness and self-confidence, this (usually hard-won) knowledge...."

I will reiterate that I acknowledged the confidence and self-awareness are usually hard-won, which right there says that it is a struggle for many Stone Butches and Transmen to get to that place--which in any logical reading serves as notice that all Stone Butches and Transmen are NOT in the same place at the same time.

If you choose to read some sort of blanket statement into my post despite my acknowledgement of this, then you are choosing to ignore the reality of what I actually said.

I suspected that I knew what you meant, and that others might as well, but I wanted it to be damn clear, just as your response to me here has been infinitely more qualifying than your original post.

No, it hasn't. I said the same thing twice. You simply didn't see it until the second time, I suspect because the second time I was speaking directly to you instead of to Converse.

Your original statements were far more general than these. Had you posted this way initially, I wouldn't have been compelled to say what I did.

My original statements were not general, they were a direct answer to someone else's post. Had I posted this way initially, I would have been speaking to you instead of to Converse, but it was Converse who was speaking to me, and it was my choice to answer.

It seems you missed that context.

My reply had nothing to do with presumed ignorance, and everything to do with clarity. You have met some evolved individuals, but there is no correlation between their gender/sexual identity and their emotional evolution as a general condition. I simply wanted to make that very clear, otherwise, the implication is that others (with different identities) are less so (which I'm sure you would recognize as being offensive).

Since when is the universe such a binary place that a simple acknowledgement of one kind of person automatically tarnishes all other people?

Let us be EXTREMELY clear, here: that is YOUR attitude and not mine. You are the one who is stating that if people state they value something, they are automatically devaluing everything else; you are the one who is not allowing for people's ability to value many things at the same time.

In MY universe, there are exemplary people everywhere. There is no either/or; I will not nor have I EVER stated, insinuated, or implied that if one kind of person is good all other kinds of people are bad or somehow "less than." Anyone who can read such a heinously limited and limiting thought in a simple acknowledgement that the Stone Butches and Transmen who attract me have self-awareness and confidence is reading what they wish or expect to see instead of reading what I actually said.

Again I repeat, it is YOUR assumption that if people say they value one kind of person, that statement automatically devalues all other kinds of persons. Your very binary either/or assumption has nothing to do with the reality of my post.

If, as individuals, we are able to reach a state in which our emotional maturity and our gender/sexual identity are on parallel tracks, then we are fortunate creatures, indeed. I do very much appreciate the opportunity to engage in this dialogue, thank you.
It doesn't seem like a dialogue to me. It seems like I am being taken to task for things which I have not said--being forced to defend my words and even my attitudes, instead of being allowed to participate in the conversation. I dislike being "schooled," most especially when it derails the conversation and discourages other people from posting.

You might wish to consider that had you simply posted, "Self-awareness takes a lot of hard work" or "I haven't found that all Stone Butches are self-aware and confident," or some such similarly non-judgmental statement that I would have most willingly engaged in an entirely more pleasant dialogue with you.

[Legendryder]

In reading this thread, I can only put in my personal perspective on the topic. For myself, I DO id as Stone Butch. For myself, it is less about how much self-awareness I have as to how I walk through life. It is a bit difficult to explain for me for some reason. The best example for me is the type of woman I am attracted to. Very femme. Very Southern, ie demure, respectful, old school ect. Not that I like door mats. If you know anything about Southern women that is the last thing you could possibly describe them as. Quietly fierce is more like it. What is odd for my situation is I felt I was overlooked as a masculine woman because I am quite thin, small boned and was described when I was young as pretty. I didn't feel I was taken seriously in the B/F world because of these things. I spent most of my youth being hyper aggressive, drunk and angry. I liken it to attempting to "feel my size". I didn't feel like a "real" Butch, because I did not think I looked like one. So, I fought against my own notions and sterotypes of what a Butch should look like, act like and just be. This is the main reason I took so far, nine years of abtainance from the dating pool. I was just flailing about and unfit for human consumption. Something I have learned is I have to define me. For me. I know there are some that will rail about being put in a box. For me it is knowing who I am. For me. I had to become selfish to be selfless I suppose. It has taken me a long time to get some comfort inside myself. I will never be one of those big Butch women that I always thought I should be. Hell, I am 5' 8" tall and weigh 130 pounds. I am a stick. *shrug* So what? I still look like me. A little older yeah. But, inside, I am a big masculine Butch. But, finally, I do not have to be a total tool to prove it. That in and of its self is such a relief. I was really tired of getting my ass kicked. The main point is I found myself. How I feel. How I define me. I simply am a Stone Butch because that is who I am.

[Mister Bent]

Bit, I prefer to remain succinct, so I'll say that I'm not the only one who read your post as I did, I stand by what I said, and you can continue this argument as long as you wish, but I will reiterate that you are, in fact, being taken to task for statements that you did make. Back peddling and attempting to make me appear incapable of comprehending your very straight-forward, simple sentences lacks credibility and is rather insulting. If I were to wish to "school" you, I would point out that "yes" is not actually a sentence, as it fails to meet the requirements of proper sentence structure. I stand by my phrasing.


It's not my concern if you view my being honest about the humanity of stone butches and transmen (of which I am one, you are NOT) as "derailing and discourages other people from posting" (yet oddly, other people are posting). I view your statements as borderline irresponsible, and I get to say that. Your history on these sorts of topics is well noted and you might wish to consider the relative weight of judgment in your post. So, feel free to continue to paint me as the "meanie," maybe some white knight will ride up and rescue you. I do not wish to engage with you further on this issue, as it is only so much beating of a dead horse and is the thing that will discourage others from posting.

[Bit]

........What is odd for my situation is I felt I was overlooked as a masculine woman because I am quite thin, small boned and was described when I was young as pretty. I didn't feel I was taken seriously in the B/F world because of these things.

That had to be really difficult; I've known a lot of Butches who described going through the same kind of experience for various reasons, usually related to their looks. It's a heartbreaker for me because to me, what counts is inside; to me, looks are pretty much irrelevant.

I'm glad you've come to a better place and that you've found yourself as a Stone Butch. I can relate to the relief of that, because it was such a relief when I found myself as a Stonefemme. Like you, I see it not as being put in a box, but as self-definition.

[waxnrope]

These postings distress me. While I care for Mr. Bent and Bit, they are unaware of the esteem which I, and likely others, hold them. Bent's penetrating comments and quick observations. Bits compassion and understanding and support of butches.

Perhaps my discomfort arises from my own stuff, my state of mind because of grief. I don't know, but I want you both to know that this disagreement disturbs me, and I wish that you would work it out between you. I do really care for you both. You are each important to me and, IMO, to this community, in your own way.

[Legendryder]

I see it not so much as an argument, but a lively discussion. Which is good. As long as the gloves stay on and all parties are respectful, go for it. Keep it flame free and others may just learn something they did not know. My .02.

[waxnrope]

I've not said a thing about an argument, Legend.
The tone. Bent's decision to NOT engage further... a mixed bag of things, not all relative to the word word argue, which is WHY I chose to not use the word.

[Legendryder]

My word choice. I am sorry to have put it that way. Lively discussion perhaps? lol All I know is I have my opinion, you have yours, they have thiers. And it is a good thing. As long as the flame is kept away. It is all a good thing.

[Mister Bent]

These postings distress me. While I care for Mr. Bent and Bit, they are unaware of the esteem which I, and likely others, hold them. Bent's penetrating comments and quick observations. Bits compassion and understanding and support of butches.

Perhaps my discomfort arises from my own stuff, my state of mind because of grief. I don't know, but I want you both to know that this disagreement disturbs me, and I wish that you would work it out between you. I do really care for you both. You are each important to me and, IMO, to this community, in your own way.

Wax, I also appreciate very much what you said here. I will continue to post, should something inspire me to comment (as sassy's post did) and have filed the preceding under "Agree to Disagree" and am done commenting, as I see no viable resolution.

I appreciate your spirit of inclusiveness and your willingness to be honest about your feelings here.

[Legendryder]

I too agree with what was said. I have learned a lot from just sitting back and reading things posted. I suck at wording things sometimes, too plain spoken I suppose. I do so appreciate the opportunity to see other's points of view. It gives me the opportunity to step back and think about a different perception. That is so good for me. There are many people here that are much smarter about things than I am and having the opportunity to learn from them is such a blessing.

[asphaltcowboi]

I too agree with what was said. I have learned a lot from just sitting back and reading things posted. I suck at wording things sometimes, too plain spoken I suppose. I do so appreciate the opportunity to see other's points of view. It gives me the opportunity to step back and think about a different perception. That is so good for me. There are many people here that are much smarter about things than I am and having the opportunity to learn from them is such a blessing.

i also suck at wording things and alot of what i post is taken out of context often i chose not to post because i know it will be torn apart and just cause ill feelings.i learn alot from just reading also. but i have to disagree on the smarter part i think it more of having walked a diffrent walk then smarter or not.
i do always try to remember not to judge a book by its cover. it whats inside that makes it a best seller!

[Legendryder]

True. Not to make it sound like I think I am stupid. But, I am uneducated about a great many things. But, that is becomming a thing of the past as well. I have almost finished my AA in Business, loving that btw. But, I am also taking the time to learn about my own experiences and how I have been shaped by them. Good or bad. Introspective, retrospective, whatever. It has been a freeing experience especially in my inner view. While I still have fits of anger, lash out sometimes and express my "toolness", I do see marked improvement. Nothing at all wrong with that.

[Nightshade]

i also suck at wording things and alot of what i post is taken out of context often i chose not to post because i know it will be torn apart and just cause ill feelings.

I often feel the same way. Or fear that it will be so. Especially if I'm speaking from my heart or about something I'm passionate about. There are lots of times when I realize after the fact that I could have said something better, more succinctly, but I have to hope that the readers will know my intent.

[Legendryder]

OMG. Bob is dreaming. He is barking in his sleep. Wiggling around too. Punk ass.

Anyhow, I cannot tell you how much I hate the fact that discussing things online can lead to hurting someone without meaning to. Tone or what you THINK is someone's tone is totally subjective. I hate the fact that you cannot see a person's eyes when you are speaking with them. It is a difficult thing to deal with sometimes. We have all had occasion to be offended by someone. They may or may not have meant anything by what was written. For me it is all about how much coffee I have in my tank that many times is the catalyst of if I feel hurt by something. rofl Not enough and I am just pissed. There, I've said it. I am ruled by the bean.

[morningstar55]

bumpty bump
:wine:

[morningstar55]

err ahh yes Wax I am ....... lol

[chrisbutch]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??

[Sachita]

every time I enter this discussion my head feels like a pin ball machine.

for me its a type of dynamic I share with a stone butch. I dont want to touch hym/her in a feminine way yet I want to be touched that way. But really isnt this a butch-femme dynamic in a way? Maybe with a layer of stone?

but if my stone butch rolled over and asked me to fuck them them sideways I'd do it. It might not rock my world or float my boat but as a partner I'm more then happy to provide. :)

[Miss Scarlett]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??

Speaking for myself only...I prefer to learn this when I am first getting to know someone because it's a big part of who they are. But again, that's just me.

[stonebutchinpa]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??

I like to tell woman I am dating right up front, because being with a stone isn't for everyone.

[Sachita]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??

I prefer this conversation when its about to get intimate as far as connected chemistry goes. I would not have it just meeting someone. In fact I'm put off, turned off when a new interaction, getting to know someone becomes too sexual. If I'm interested, feelings mutual then before we proceed we do need that talk.

[chrisbutch]

Ok, all good advice thanks! But surely, now call me old fashioned, people should get to know each other slowly, and let things develope. Sexual preferences are not what early dating conversation should be about??

[cuddlyfemme]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??

Personally, at first I don't say anything while we're in the "friends" stage but if things seem to start going further than just the "friends" stage, I'm upfront with them right away about being Stone (and answer any questions about what Stone is) because that will help define the relationship since I only go out with Stone Butches

[diamondrose]

Personally, at first I don't say anything while we're in the "friends" stage but if things seem to start going further than just the "friends" stage, I'm upfront with them right away about being Stone (and answer any questions about what Stone is) because that will help define the relationship since I only go out with Stone Butches


I agree completly

[waxnrope]

Ok, all good advice thanks! But surely, now call me old fashioned, people should get to know each other slowly, and let things develope. Sexual preferences are not what early dating conversation should be about??

Chris, I think that the type of "date" or encounter determines the circumstances. If one is into bdsm, IMO only, one explores the boundaries and limitations of the other as prelude to possible play. For *me*, this would mean that I divulge my stone id. Perhaps this is not necessary in that I am a Dominant, but I always want to be clear, up front, and understood about My boundaries. I expect my "date" to do the same, and will ask pointed questions about hers. For me, it is not only understanding her medical condition/s or play preferences/aversions. It is deeper than that. Then again, I am speaking of something outside of a "vanilla" experience (I don't know that I like that term. It feels derogatory, yet it is nearly universally understood ...) and my response might not be appropriate for discussion here with respect to your question.

Having said this, in a "vanilla" situation, a date, depending upon the energy that transpires between us, my disclosure as stone would come forth if I felt there was something developing between us. I can almost "smell" the other's desire ... Otherwise, if it "feels" more like friendship material instead of something more, I don't see any reason to discuss this with her. I have a lot of femme friends. Eventually, the topic comes up ... but not because it needs to be discussed ... it is more the level of friendship. The level of sharing, which brings this up during the deep exchanges between two close friends.

Hmmm. :seeingstars: I may have muddied the waters here! :bolt:

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??
I beleive it should be shared once you know the relatiosnhip is heading to a level of romance and sex.


Vanilla, It feels derogatory, yet it is nearly universally understood ..

I agree the tern Vanilla has always sound derogatory to me.. I am stone and consider myself exciting with over flowing passion not afraid to express myself. Vanilla sounds borrowing and limited. but I guess not being part of the BDSM community I would be called Vanilla.

[CherylNYC]

Chris, I think that the type of "date" or encounter determines the circumstances. If one is into bdsm, IMO only, one explores the boundaries and limitations of the other as prelude to possible play. For *me*, this would mean that I divulge my stone id. Perhaps this is not necessary in that I am a Dominant, but I always want to be clear, up front, and understood about My boundaries. I expect my "date" to do the same, and will ask pointed questions about hers. For me, it is not only understanding her medical condition/s or play preferences/aversions. It is deeper than that. Then again, I am speaking of something outside of a "vanilla" experience (I don't know that I like that term. It feels derogatory, yet it is nearly universally understood ...) and my response might not be appropriate for discussion here with respect to your question.

Having said this, in a "vanilla" situation, a date, depending upon the energy that transpires between us, my disclosure as stone would come forth if I felt there was something developing between us. I can almost "smell" the other's desire ... Otherwise, if it "feels" more like friendship material instead of something more, I don't see any reason to discuss this with her. I have a lot of femme friends. Eventually, the topic comes up ... but not because it needs to be discussed ... it is more the level of friendship. The level of sharing, which brings this up during the deep exchanges between two close friends.

Hmmm. :seeingstars: I may have muddied the waters here! :bolt:

I agree with you completely, Wax. (That is, except that I think vanilla is as fine a flavor as any other, and not at all derogatory.) When I'm at a BDSM party and flirting with a potential playmate I state my boundaries right up front. That includes my stonefemme boundaries if it seems as if the play we're negotiating could lead to or include sex.

When I'm in a less sexually explicit environment I disclose the information as early as is polite, and I only do so on a need-to-know basis. Stone boundaries aren't the only ones I state up-front. I'm also non-monogamous, and I make sure that information comes up early on, too. Unfortunately for me, that info acts as really effective 'butch-repellent', so I can skip to the disappointment stage before I start to get emotionally involved. Sigh.

[DapperButch]

Ok, all good advice thanks! But surely, now call me old fashioned, people should get to know each other slowly, and let things develope. Sexual preferences are not what early dating conversation should be about??

For me saying that I am stone is not sexualizing a conversation or discussing sexual preferences. To me, sexual preferences are: Do you like vibrators?

That isn't similar to stone. Stone is: I do not allow someone to touch my genitals or chest. Are you interested in touching your partner in those areas? If the answer is yes, then I would not be able to meet that person's needs sexually. Subsequently, it would make no sense for us to date....why begin the process if it can not go anywhere?

[stonebutchinpa]

For me saying that I am stone is not sexualizing a conversation or discussing sexual preferences. To me, sexual preferences are: Do you like vibrators?

That isn't similar to stone. Stone is: I do not allow someone to touch my genitals or chest. Are you interested in touching your partner in those areas? If the answer is yes, then I would not be able to meet that person's needs sexually. Subsequently, it would make no sense for us to date....why begin the process if it can not go anywhere?


I agree 100% Dapper.

[Converse]

Can i ask some advice here?? When is appropriate to tell some that you are stone?? early in the relationship or wait until you get to know them better??

In the real world there are many types of “engagements” we can have. There are those that involve an unplanned flirtation that leads to a mutually rewarding though relatively brief physical encounter- where having a discussion concerning the intricacies of stone would be as inappropriate as exchanging phone numbers.

In the same vein, if someone had a regularly planned “date” where the relationship didn’t exist outside of the designated time and place, again the need to discuss stone may be considered a poor use of the allotted time.

Both of these examples assume that the stone is also a Top, or Dominant in some way and is “leading’ the encounter, if this is not the case then I would presume that the stone would need to be very explicit before anything physical occurred.

However, as both a Dom and a Top, I personally believe that in situations other than the two just given that stone needs to enter the conversation earlier rather than later.

Perhaps I am unique in my thinking but as a stone, when in a committed and monogamous relationship, concern is always “am I depriving her of something that she will eventually need/want?” so before heading even close to that direction I need to have the discussion, I need to know whether I’m simply being accommodated or whether it is actually her preference.

[DapperButch]

... I need to know whether I’m simply being accommodated or whether it is actually her preference.

For me, this is a very significant point. I do not want to date someone who is "ok" with me being Stone or can "give up" being able to touch someone's chest. I want to be with someone who does not want to touch my chest. I don't want someone to give up their desires for me. I want to BE their desire.

[cuddlyfemme]

For me, this is a very significant point. I do not want to date someone who is "ok" with me being Stone or can "give up" being able to touch someone's chest. I want to be with someone who does not want to touch my chest. I don't want someone to give up their desires for me. I want to BE their desire.
I totally agree with this from a Stone Femme's point of view. I don't want to date someone that is giving up something they enjoy just because I won't do it. Everyone should get what they want/need. If that means not dating me, then, thats what it means. I want someone that respects what my boundaries are

[morningstar55]

Ok, all good advice thanks! But surely, now call me old fashioned, people should get to know each other slowly, and let things develope. Sexual preferences are not what early dating conversation should be about??

to me this is a yes and no answer to your ?
sexual conversation should be at the bottom of the list of getting to know you stuff... and i can agree to letting things develope, with some old fashion dating.. :)
but ...... its nice to know up front , that should a heated passionate moment should occur.... I want to know ahead of time , what your boundries are and know how to please you on ways that you feel comfortable with.
If your open to anything.... i want to know that
if you have bounderies I want to know that ...... and not make a mistake or find out down the road at some point that we are NOT compatable in area's we enjoy and how we are to enjoy giving as well as recieving.
I have dated stone and non stones...... and wel im sure missing that stone butch energy, so much. *sigh*
... just my 2 cents..

[Sachita]

I like to tell woman I am dating right up front, because being with a stone isn't for everyone.

I date butches. I never assume anything when it comes to sex. Honestly sweetie in my 20 years dating butches none of them came and told me how they wanted to be touched. I always ask when I feel we are moving in that direction.

You're a cutie! How did I miss you and just a state away! Should you ever want to interact with an older woman I hope you'll look me up.

[Chazz]

Thank your for this post.



I've read this thread a little here and there, and have largely held off posting because:

1) I don't at this point in my life identify as stone butch, though there was a time in which I did.
This has been my experience. I identified as "stone butch" for 14 years, through two relationships, then this happened:


Hello Stoners...

I guess I am going against the grain here and saying I don't understand limiting your dating pool by what someone has wanted or wanted in sex. I could never not want to be with someone because of what they want or don't want sexually, I suppose if that would be a dealbreaker for me ( I can't even imagine) it would be different.

I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover.

It all just seems so predefined. I'm trying to understand I suppose.
Yep, that's what happened to me alright. My partner and I rolled with it and came out in a new place, together, and individually.


One commonly held belief is that "stone butch" came about to refer to butches that were "stone cold butch;" the most butch among butches - those who were most masculine (and I pointedly state "masculine" not male).

This is the definition to which I have always held.
Ah, the hierarchy of butch-ness.... Agreed, that is a very common definition. I subscribed to it myself for many years.

I guess I'm an exception to that definition (assumption?). I look, behave, live, am taken for, butcher than butch, but I no longer ID as stone.

(I suspect there are a great many more butches like me than is commonly thought.)



But, back to this:

...I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover.

This is precisely what happened to me. Imagine my surprise ! :blink:


This is the definition to which I have always held. It refers to a butch who is unwavering in their identity, and in their presentation of self; one who would never sacrifice their personal sense of comfort, well being and identity in order to bend to the wishes of others, whether seeking a job, dealing with family, or a sexual partner. This definition, for me, includes no particular reference to sex/sexuality, but allows for each stone butch to define for themselves what their comfort level is and how they are going to hold that line - in all aspects of their life. Technically, that means a stone butch could be quite "free" sexually, including open to anal penetration or oral sex, for example.

But not just stone butches - all butches. Oh yeah, and femmes, too.

Hierarchies suck.

[cuddlyfemme]

Good Morning all you wonderful and handsome Stone Butches!!!

[stonebutchinpa]

Good Morning all you wonderful and handsome Stone Butches!!!

Good afternoon Cuddly!

[cuddlyfemme]

Good afternoon Cuddly!
Hows it going? I was starting to think my post ran everyone out of here lol

[stonebutchinpa]

Just got back from a bad date where the woman I was with told me that being with someone "like me" aka a stone made her feel like she wasn't a lesbian anymore, I took her lesbian identity and made her feel straight?!?!

I completely understand that everyone has their opinion, but I clearly told her who I was waaaayyy before we started dating.

I just want to thank the femme woman out there who love and appreciate us stone butches.

[morningstar55]

Just got back from a bad date where the woman I was with told me that being with someone "like me" aka a stone made her feel like she wasn't a lesbian anymore, I took her lesbian identity and made her feel straight?!?!

I completely understand that everyone has their opinion, but I clearly told her who I was waaaayyy before we started dating.

I just want to thank the femme woman out there who love and appreciate us stone butches.

I dont understand .... why someone continues to date someone when they know way way before hand .. what type the person is ... maybe she thought she could change you somewhere down the road..

[DapperButch]

Just got back from a bad date where the woman I was with told me that being with someone "like me" aka a stone made her feel like she wasn't a lesbian anymore, I took her lesbian identity and made her feel straight?!?!

I completely understand that everyone has their opinion, but I clearly told her who I was waaaayyy before we started dating.

I just want to thank the femme woman out there who love and appreciate us stone butches.

I'm sorry this happened. At some point you will find a woman who WANTS this in her butch.

That is the difference, I think, and I mentioned it earlier. I would only want to be with a woman who DESIRED a butch like myself, not one that is "ok" with me being stone.

I want that part of me to be something she prefers in a partner, not something she "accepts" in a partner.

[cuddlyfemme]

Just got back from a bad date where the woman I was with told me that being with someone "like me" aka a stone made her feel like she wasn't a lesbian anymore, I took her lesbian identity and made her feel straight?!?!

I completely understand that everyone has their opinion, but I clearly told her who I was waaaayyy before we started dating.

I just want to thank the femme woman out there who love and appreciate us stone butches.

I'm really sorry that this happened to you :( You were up front with her so its not like she didn't know. I've been in relationships where the butch thought hy could "change" me....not gonna happen in this lifetime!

I am glad you realize that there are femme's that love and appreciate all you wonderful, handsome stone butches. Nothing gets me going like a stone butch does!

[stonebutchinpa]

I dont understand .... why someone continues to date someone when they know way way before hand .. what type the person is ... maybe she thought she could change you somewhere down the road..

I think she did think I would change....so obviously she didn't truly understand what a stone butch is.

I'm sorry this happened. At some point you will find a woman who WANTS this in her butch.

That is the difference, I think, and I mentioned it earlier. I would only want to be with a woman who DESIRED a butch like myself, not one that is "ok" with me being stone.

I want that part of me to be something she prefers in a partner, not something she "accepts" in a partner.


I agree Dapper, you are right. I definitely want someone who "accepts" me for being stone not who is "ok" with it. I appreciate the support

I'm really sorry that this happened to you :( You were up front with her so its not like she didn't know. I've been in relationships where the butch thought hy could "change" me....not gonna happen in this lifetime!

I am glad you realize that there are femme's that love and appreciate all you wonderful, handsome stone butches. Nothing gets me going like a stone butch does!


Ahhh Cuddly you are such a sweetie, thank you for the support. :flowers:

[Converse]

Just got back from a bad date where the woman I was with told me that being with someone "like me" aka a stone made her feel like she wasn't a lesbian anymore, I took her lesbian identity and made her feel straight?!?!

I completely understand that everyone has their opinion, but I clearly told her who I was waaaayyy before we started dating.

I just want to thank the femme woman out there who love and appreciate us stone butches.

It’s who we are, and sexually it’s a part of the whole. I don’t think that some realize that when they ask for a part of us to change- that it cant happen without it altering everything else about us. It’s hard to hear, to hear that something about the way we are is in someway depriving or diminishing some one we care about. I’ve stood in your shoes, and I’ve tried to tolerate, tried to make this “one” concession. I’ve allowed myself to believe that I am somehow less than, that it is some kind of hurdle that I have to jump, that if I wanted a woman in my bed that ‘lesbian – take it in turns” sex was part of the deal.

I’ve been with the women who claim that they are attracted to the energy, to the hardness, to an edginess, a confidence, to something they say seems a little remote, a little self-contained- and then in a short period of time I’ve experienced those same women talk of wanting to expose the underbelly, of seeking some compliance and pliability, of wanting to experience the girl behind the Butch. It’s as though there is a belief that a Stone Butch is simply a façade, a layer of clothing, that gets worn and removed at will, but what many don’t understand is that it is not a veneer - so when it is removed- there is nothing of our true selves left.

I have attempted to accommodate a sex as they have “always done it”- and as a consequence have had to accept the lack of sexual gratification, but more importantly suffered from a sense of “loosing myself” because of it.

And then I discovered a stone Femme, and suddenly knew what it was like to fly high.

Neither of you are wrong or imperfect, but like most things in life we need to find our compliment, because just as a mismatch can cause us to loose ourselves, the right one can help us take air. I wish you well.

[DamselFly]

i want to speak about myself as a stone femme. in a very early post on this thread, i read a definition of a stone femme as either receiving, not giving, or not wanting to be touched sexually in certain ways. neither of these definitions apply to me! when i hear of stone femmes as "receiving, not giving", i really get angry! when with a stone butch, i AM giving just as much as i am receiving, only in a different way. first of all, let me say that in the past i have dated almost exclusively stone/tg/FtM butches. i go for that type of energy exchange. when with a Stone Butch, whether tg or not, i feel an exhilaration just to be with hym. i feel proud to be seen by hys side in public- a "this is who i am, this is who WE are"! this pulls at the inmost part of my femininity, my femme-ness. sexually, i adore being w/a stone butch. when i give myself to hym, it is as a precious gift, and the true ones know this and treat me as such. but this giving is NOT a passive "just lay there"! in my giving myself and getting hys energy, hys passion, hys tenderness, i give back mine in return. perhaps more subtly and in different ways than w/a non-stone butch. for example, i would never touch a stone butch in a feminizing way, and i find out beforehand where hys boundaries are. but i move with hys rhythm, i run my hands down hys back and body where appropriate, i wrap my legs around hym...and GO with hym! hys taking/my receiving go back and forth in a yin-yang flow that is the essence of the stone dance. i WANT hys taking me as hys gift. the energy is equal in quality but not in means. i don't want to touch a butch like hy touches me. (one BIG reason i'm a femme and a stone/transensual femme.) i am not a lipstick lesbian-i am a FEMME.
i hope that this makes some sense and helps put an end to the canard that stone femmes just receive. of course, this is just one queer stone femme's perspective. it is my truth.
namaste,
DamselFly
i apologize for so many caps, but this is a subject that i get very passionate about!

[DapperButch]

i want to speak about myself as a stone femme. in a very early post on this thread, i read a definition of a stone femme as either receiving, not giving, or not wanting to be touched sexually in certain ways. neither of these definitions apply to me! when i hear of stone femmes as "receiving, not giving", i really get angry! when with a stone butch, i AM giving just as much as i am receiving, only in a different way. first of all, let me say that in the past i have dated almost exclusively stone/tg/FtM butches. i go for that type of energy exchange. when with a Stone Butch, whether tg or not, i feel an exhilaration just to be with hym. i feel proud to be seen by hys side in public- a "this is who i am, this is who WE are"! this pulls at the inmost part of my femininity, my femme-ness. sexually, i adore being w/a stone butch. when i give myself to hym, it is as a precious gift, and the true ones know this and treat me as such. but this giving is NOT a passive "just lay there"! in my giving myself and getting hys energy, hys passion, hys tenderness, i give back mine in return. perhaps more subtly and in different ways than w/a non-stone butch. for example, i would never touch a stone butch in a feminizing way, and i find out beforehand where hys boundaries are. but i move with hys rhythm, i run my hands down hys back and body where appropriate, i wrap my legs around hym...and GO with hym! hys taking/my receiving go back and forth in a yin-yang flow that is the essence of the stone dance. i WANT hys taking me as hys gift. the energy is equal in quality but not in means. i don't want to touch a butch like hy touches me. (one BIG reason i'm a femme and a stone/transensual femme.) i am not a lipstick lesbian-i am a FEMME.
i hope that this makes some sense and helps put an end to the canard that stone femmes just receive. of course, this is just one queer stone femme's perspective. it is my truth.
namaste,
DamselFly
i apologize for so many caps, but this is a subject that i get very passionate about!

:clap: :clap::clap::clap::clap:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Sachita]

This is what I think and it can apply to almost anyone.

I have a 3 month rule. No matter what I don't have sex until that time passes. Trust me, I'm VERY open minded but I also view sex as sacred and the one final thing that truly connects us. I also want to know that the time I'm investing in pursuing a relationship isn't wasted. Worse case we remain excellent friends. If the can't communicate well or they can't be honest about their feelings its not going to work- end of story. There is no way in hell you'll understand this about anyone coming out of the gate. People talk a lot of shit especially when trying to impress someone. If you can't be with one another, regardless if your B-F, stone, trans whatever, in common space, without the complexity of sex then you've never survive a relationship. I have a real problem with someone who exits at the first sign of conflict so i want to know this FIRST before I ever drop my panties.

If you are remotely interested then spend time with that person. If you're honest, real and basically good people you will begin to forage a friendship. Any chemistry thats there should naturally balance itself because what i have found that the rules changes sometimes depending who you're with. Never say never. I mean I don't want to make love to a butch the way hy does me- nope, not my thing BUT there may be an exception based on the human connection and dynamic WE feel together. If we spend time together, as friends we will naturally learn to respect each other's space. If it evolves into hot wonderful sex PERFECT! If not it just wasn't meant to be.

I don't misrepresent myself I just don't feel the need to tell a friend how I fuck. After many many moons I've also learned that there may be new horizons I may climb. I'd like to keep my options open. I once dated a little trans-boy much younger then I. We started as friends and somehow we established an interesting dynamic that neither one of us had ever even thought about before. It came out of nowhere one day and the most amazing thing is that we remained friends with that special chemistry. I've never had this with anyone before so I never bottom line anything. lol Ultimately I am seeking a life partner and there are so many OTHER factors that come into play other than sex. These all must be present BEFORE anything else and if sex seals the deal off we go into the sunset!

[southernboi63]

I have to agreee with you DomnNC. I define myself as Stone but as I have read I find myself as being confussed. For myself, when I am with that special woman, When we are tgether in the bedroom, I get off by getting her off by me penertrating her. I like being touched but not penertation at all, I feel as if I were born in the wrong body, I wear mens clothing, boxers, eveything....I pack all the time so what would you classify me if not a stoner... the only thing I see if anything would be the touching... I need help//\\

[Miss Scarlett]

i want to speak about myself as a stone femme. in a very early post on this thread, i read a definition of a stone femme as either receiving, not giving, or not wanting to be touched sexually in certain ways. neither of these definitions apply to me! when i hear of stone femmes as "receiving, not giving", i really get angry! when with a stone butch, i AM giving just as much as i am receiving, only in a different way. first of all, let me say that in the past i have dated almost exclusively stone/tg/FtM butches. i go for that type of energy exchange. when with a Stone Butch, whether tg or not, i feel an exhilaration just to be with hym. i feel proud to be seen by hys side in public- a "this is who i am, this is who WE are"! this pulls at the inmost part of my femininity, my femme-ness. sexually, i adore being w/a stone butch. when i give myself to hym, it is as a precious gift, and the true ones know this and treat me as such. but this giving is NOT a passive "just lay there"! in my giving myself and getting hys energy, hys passion, hys tenderness, i give back mine in return. perhaps more subtly and in different ways than w/a non-stone butch. for example, i would never touch a stone butch in a feminizing way, and i find out beforehand where hys boundaries are. but i move with hys rhythm, i run my hands down hys back and body where appropriate, i wrap my legs around hym...and GO with hym! hys taking/my receiving go back and forth in a yin-yang flow that is the essence of the stone dance. i WANT hys taking me as hys gift. the energy is equal in quality but not in means. i don't want to touch a butch like hy touches me. (one BIG reason i'm a femme and a stone/transensual femme.) i am not a lipstick lesbian-i am a FEMME.
i hope that this makes some sense and helps put an end to the canard that stone femmes just receive. of course, this is just one queer stone femme's perspective. it is my truth.
namaste,
DamselFly
i apologize for so many caps, but this is a subject that i get very passionate about!

Exactly! This is the way I feel too...but many people cannot wrap their brain around it...

For me there is an exchange in every aspect of the relationship and it is my natural response to him...it just flows between us and is a beautiful thing!

I respect boundaries too, when I know what they are.

[DamselFly]

it is good to know that are T/those who understand how i feel!
just dropping by to say hello to all the B/butches and femmes in this thread. i want to say that i like reading E/everyone's post and POV. very interesting. thank Y/you, everyone, for them. i'm so glad to have this thread!
damselfly :moonstars:

[QueenofSmirks]

Good morning all! :)

[DamselFly]

qingduo guan zhao! Glad to be here! for someone who got no sleep last night, i'm doing pretty well! still cold here, so that means MAYBE the long walk to the postbox. i've been feeling bad these last several days-dr. visits really take the energy out of me, plus they're playing around w/my meds! i dislike that the first thing a new dr does is change meds. i don't understand why, if things are working, they fell they've got to tinker w/it anyway. must be something learned in med school on patient relations (not good!)
that's my rant for the morning! going to get lunch now!
namaste,
DamselFly :tea:

[Toughy]

you can tell the MD that you don't want to change your meds......they are working just fine (assuming they are)...you really can say no........they need need to give you a good reason for changing them....'tinkering' is bullshit...

[DomnNC]

You have to be careful nowadays about refusing to follow your Dr's orders. More and more if you refuse to change meds when they dictate or do certain therapies they have the right to refuse to be your Dr, then they report you to your insurance company and they refuse to pay for meds that your Dr has recommended you come off of EVEN if they are working for you. There are reasons at times that a Dr will change your meds up, it can be that after a certain time the drug you are taking becomes toxic to you or no longer is handling whatever health situation you are taking them for depending on tests results.

My mother was given 2 different drugs for treatment of osteoperosis, she had bad reactions to both of them, Actinol and another one, can't recall the name. A new Dr wanted her to take Reclast (the once a year IV thing). She told him about the two bad reactions she had to the pill form and asked him if this drug was different, he told her it was basically an IV of the same pills. She said ok, so if I start having a bad reaction how do you get it out of my system, is there an antidote, to which he replied no, so based on her history with these type of drugs she said I'd prefer not to take it then. He looked at her and said well if you aren't going to follow my advice you need to leave my office and find another Dr. He had best be glad I didn't accompany her on that visit. So you have to be careful what you say to Dr's nowadays. He reported her to her insurance company who then refused to pay for the pill versions which was ok since she couldn't take them anyway. The insurance companies have taken over our lives little by little, while we pay ridiculous insurance rates and they have the senators and congressmen in their hip pockets with all the perks they give them.

[Miss Scarlett]

You have to be careful nowadays about refusing to follow your Dr's orders. More and more if you refuse to change meds when they dictate or do certain therapies they have the right to refuse to be your Dr, then they report you to your insurance company and they refuse to pay for meds that your Dr has recommended you come off of EVEN if they are working for you. There are reasons at times that a Dr will change your meds up, it can be that after a certain time the drug you are taking becomes toxic to you or no longer is handling whatever health situation you are taking them for depending on tests results.

My mother was given 2 different drugs for treatment of osteoperosis, she had bad reactions to both of them, Actinol and another one, can't recall the name. A new Dr wanted her to take Reclast (the once a year IV thing). She told him about the two bad reactions she had to the pill form and asked him if this drug was different, he told her it was basically an IV of the same pills. She said ok, so if I start having a bad reaction how do you get it out of my system, is there an antidote, to which he replied no, so based on her history with these type of drugs she said I'd prefer not to take it then. He looked at her and said well if you aren't going to follow my advice you need to leave my office and find another Dr. He had best be glad I didn't accompany her on that visit. So you have to be careful what you say to Dr's nowadays. He reported her to her insurance company who then refused to pay for the pill versions which was ok since she couldn't take them anyway. The insurance companies have taken over our lives little by little, while we pay ridiculous insurance rates and they have the senators and congressmen in their hip pockets with all the perks they give them.

Sadly this is true...

If i may add...sometimes you also take a chance by using insurance to fill or reimburse for prescriptions. My doctor put me on Metformin (a diabetes med) for PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome) and not diabetes. He warned me not to use my insurance because filling this with my insurance would flag me as diabetic and there would be consequences if my insurance company thought I was diabetic. So I get it filled at Target for $4 and they don't have any insurance info on me.

[cuddlyfemme]

Good Morning all you handsome Stone Butches and Femme's that adore them!

[Toughy]

If a doctor treats you like an idiot, requires you to do what they say, then file a complaint with the local AMA.....there are methods for stopping abusive behavior by practioners. Call your local TV station......they usually have an investigative arm for this kind of thing.

None of the behaviors or treatment described are ethical. It will not stop until consumers of their services stand up and report them. You are not a patient....you are a consumer and you have rights and responsibilities. Stop letting them abuse you. The Obama healthcare reform should help in stopping much of this kind of behavior.

Stop taking that kind of crap. The doctor is part of a team that includes you in all decision making.

[DomnNC]

Dr's do not have to accept you as a patient. They can refuse to treat you. If they couldn't refuse to treat you then the homeless, those without health insurance could go to the Dr of their choice and get treatment. Try getting treatment without money or insurance.

I have no problem with my Dr, he's been my Dr for almost 30 years, we have a good relationship and he listens to me. He hates insurance companies with a passion so he talks about them quite often. Did you know that a lot of insurance companies now require a questionnaire to be sent when they bill for their services now asking questions like how involved the patient is in their care, do they follow their Dr's guidelines, take medications he recommends etcetcetc, why do you think they ask you all those questions when the nurse checks you in before the Dr comes in. If you aren't following your Dr's advice and taking the meds he recommends or other things he recommends it's the insurance companies who will stop paying for certain meds/treatment if your Dr has recommended changing them. My Dr told me this himself during one of his rants about insurance companies.

edit: granted this was before reform and my mother's issue with a damn Dr was before reform.

[DamselFly]

the primary care dr. i went to see when i first got here refused to refill most of the meds i was on from my previous primary care dr. so i've had to taper myself off as best i could. now, however, i'm running out of my pain meds, which are heavy-duty, and i really lack the expertise to taper myself off of these! i've left calls w/her that i need help plus am out of what she DID refill! she has not returned my calls. i could be in trouble if i went off these cold-turkey (not only extremely unpleasant withdrawal symptoms but life-threatening.) not to mention the fact that no dr. i've seen so far is offering me anything to replace what i've gone off for little things, like MS, RSD, Fibro, and migraines (which are getting worse)! i'm trying to find a new primary care dr. but i'm having a difficult time doing so. is it ethical for a dr. just to say "you shouldn't be on these" and not help you with HOW safely to stop taking the meds?
namaste,
DamselFly

[cuddlyfemme]

the primary care dr. i went to see when i first got here refused to refill most of the meds i was on from my previous primary care dr. so i've had to taper myself off as best i could. now, however, i'm running out of my pain meds, which are heavy-duty, and i really lack the expertise to taper myself off of these! i've left calls w/her that i need help plus am out of what she DID refill! she has not returned my calls. i could be in trouble if i went off these cold-turkey (not only extremely unpleasant withdrawal symptoms but life-threatening.) not to mention the fact that no dr. i've seen so far is offering me anything to replace what i've gone off for little things, like MS, RSD, Fibro, and migraines (which are getting worse)! i'm trying to find a new primary care dr. but i'm having a difficult time doing so. is it ethical for a dr. just to say "you shouldn't be on these" and not help you with HOW safely to stop taking the meds?
namaste,
DamselFly


I remember there was one medicine that i had to be taken off of because it was damaging my liver big time. It was medicine for seizures and I had be carefully "weened" off the med and put back on the replacement drug. Now I have been to new primary care doctors who don't agree with the medicine the previou doctor had put me on but he/she always help me get off the med. I think that if a doctor wants you off a medicine that can have life threantening withdraw's then they should help with the withdraw. I hope this made sense since its 4am here[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[DomnNC]

the primary care dr. i went to see when i first got here refused to refill most of the meds i was on from my previous primary care dr. so i've had to taper myself off as best i could. now, however, i'm running out of my pain meds, which are heavy-duty, and i really lack the expertise to taper myself off of these! i've left calls w/her that i need help plus am out of what she DID refill! she has not returned my calls. i could be in trouble if i went off these cold-turkey (not only extremely unpleasant withdrawal symptoms but life-threatening.) not to mention the fact that no dr. i've seen so far is offering me anything to replace what i've gone off for little things, like MS, RSD, Fibro, and migraines (which are getting worse)! i'm trying to find a new primary care dr. but i'm having a difficult time doing so. is it ethical for a dr. just to say "you shouldn't be on these" and not help you with HOW safely to stop taking the meds?
namaste,
DamselFly


Call your Dr's office and ask to speak to the Dr's nurse and go over all this with her. Most often you can get the nurse to return your call. Dr's for the most part do not return patients calls unless they've been your PCP for a long long period of time. Don't leave a message with the receptionist, chances are the Dr will never know you called.

[Toughy]

once again unethical and dangerous behavior from a clinician..........please call your state medical board and file a complaint as well as ask them for assistance and guidance.....

[DapperButch]

the primary care dr. i went to see when i first got here refused to refill most of the meds i was on from my previous primary care dr. so i've had to taper myself off as best i could. now, however, i'm running out of my pain meds, which are heavy-duty, and i really lack the expertise to taper myself off of these! i've left calls w/her that i need help plus am out of what she DID refill! she has not returned my calls. i could be in trouble if i went off these cold-turkey (not only extremely unpleasant withdrawal symptoms but life-threatening.) not to mention the fact that no dr. i've seen so far is offering me anything to replace what i've gone off for little things, like MS, RSD, Fibro, and migraines (which are getting worse)! i'm trying to find a new primary care dr. but i'm having a difficult time doing so. is it ethical for a dr. just to say "you shouldn't be on these" and not help you with HOW safely to stop taking the meds?
namaste,
DamselFly


It surprises me to think that your PCP would not give you information as to how you should taper your medication. Perhaps you should consider calling the physician who prescribed the medication? That person should be able to give you some advice and would be the one responsible for making sure you have the medications you need until you find a PCP you are comfortable with.

Also, around here pain medication is handled by pain management doctors and not PCP physicians. These doctors specialize in making sure folks are not in pain, yet don't fall into addiction (which can happen to the best intentioned individual).

I sorry you are having a hard time. I can see how it would be frustrating. Good luck.

[Miss Scarlett]

Call your Dr's office and ask to speak to the Dr's nurse and go over all this with her. Most often you can get the nurse to return your call. Dr's for the most part do not return patients calls unless they've been your PCP for a long long period of time. Don't leave a message with the receptionist, chances are the Dr will never know you called.

This is excellent advice...especially about not leaving a message with the receptionist...i had a similar experience many years ago but with an endodontist...was having a lot of trouble following some root canals...every time i called the receptionist said the same thing..."Continue your warm water swishes..." Ended up just driving down to the office and demanding to see the dentist...that and the fact that my jaw looked like i had a softball in it finally got results.

What i'm trying to say is that you have to take some proactive steps - this isn't some favour they are doing for you. You are paying for this and by accepting you as a patient they have a duty and obligation to treat you and do so responsibly. i hate to suggest you change doctors again but you may have to do that. Have you tried contacting your former physician to ask for some help? It's worth a try.

Your profile says you are in Oklahoma. Here's the link to the Oklahoma Board of Medical Licensure and Supervision Complaint Procedures (http://www.okmedicalboard.org/complaint)

[cuddlyfemme]

This is excellent advice...especially about not leaving a message with the receptionist...i had a similar experience many years ago but with an endodontist...was having a lot of trouble following some root canals...every time i called the receptionist said the same thing..."Continue your warm water swishes..." Ended up just driving down to the office and demanding to see the dentist...that and the fact that my jaw looked like i had a softball in it finally got results.

What i'm trying to say is that you have to take some proactive steps - this isn't some favour they are doing for you. You are paying for this and by accepting you as a patient they have a duty and obligation to treat you and do so responsibly. i hate to suggest you change doctors again but you may have to do that. Have you tried contacting your former physician to ask for some help? It's worth a try.

Your profile says you are in Oklahoma. Here's the link to the Oklahoma Board of Medical Licensure and Supervision Complaint Procedures (http://www.okmedicalboard.org/complaint)

I totally agree with not leaving a message with the receptionist. Its been my experience that the doctor (or nurse) never gets it. Luckily at my doctor's office there's a code you can push to talk directly to the nurse. I've also learned in my search for a doctor (have looked for alot of doctors in my time) is to make sure the doctor is Board Certified. I'm not sure why that is but its something many doctors and nurses have told me. Good luck!

[cuddlyfemme]

Gooood Morning all you handsome Stone Butches and those who love you all for who you are!!!

[DamselFly]

my glaucoma specialist, very kind and at the best eye clinic in OK (affiliated w/OU's medical complex), says that in one month, i have lost another 5% of my optic nerve in my R eye. he doesn't know why my vision is deteriorating so quickly but says that all i can do is use medication to hold on to what little remains of my vision in both eyes. since i have so little of the optic nerve left in either eye, surgery is not recommended. truth be told, i am now not so slowly going totally blind. that's the reason i am not online so much anymore-i have to rest my eyes after a session. i am learning braille, trying to determine where would be the best place to live (for very low-income person on SSD with impaired vision), and "seeing" into the possibility of getting a service dog. having made peace w/being alone for the second half of my life will now stand me in good stead, i will make a great friend to A/anyone but no longer anticipate any relationships in the future, though am still open to the possibility,
namaste,
damselfly:moonstars:

[Dutch Leonard]

I have to agreee with you DomnNC. I define myself as Stone but as I have read I find myself as being confussed. For myself, when I am with that special woman, When we are tgether in the bedroom, I get off by getting her off by me penertrating her. I like being touched but not penertation at all, I feel as if I were born in the wrong body, I wear mens clothing, boxers, eveything....I pack all the time so what would you classify me if not a stoner... the only thing I see if anything would be the touching... I need help//\\

It doesn't look like you need help to me, some are so stone they allow no touching some just don't want the penetration. You are the boss of how it works. I don't think you are confused.

[DamselFly]

dropping in to say GOOD MORNING to A/all and to thank E/everyone for T/their most helpful advice concerning my medical problems! many thanks to A/all for listening!
*with humble gratitude*
namaste,
DamselFly:moonstars:

[asphaltcowboi]

I have to agreee with you DomnNC. I define myself as Stone but as I have read I find myself as being confussed. For myself, when I am with that special woman, When we are tgether in the bedroom, I get off by getting her off by me penertrating her. I like being touched but not penertation at all, I feel as if I were born in the wrong body, I wear mens clothing, boxers, eveything....I pack all the time so what would you classify me if not a stoner... the only thing I see if anything would be the touching... I need help//\\
im stone and am very close to the same.. i dont think your confused.. i do think we all have our personal aganda sexualy. some of us (me) do not allow touch below the belt other than my butch cock. i expect to be treated as if that was what i was born with.. lol now maybe im confused? am i t/g? im confertable with the stone lable so that is what i wear. i feel male but reconize that im female. i dont want to become male. i do not want to lose touch with my female side because i believe __for me__ it is what allows me to feel the way i do with a woman..

[Miss Scarlett]

im stone and am very close to the same.. i dont think your confused.. i do think we all have our personal aganda sexualy. some of us (me) do not allow touch below the belt other than my butch cock. i expect to be treated as if that was what i was born with.. lol now maybe im confused? am i t/g? im confertable with the stone lable so that is what i wear. i feel male but reconize that im female. i dont want to become male. i do not want to lose touch with my female side because i believe __for me__ it is what allows me to feel the way i do with a woman..

cody i don't think you're at all confused...i hate the labels but we seem to have them for everything in our lives...i have t/g friends and i don't think of them as t/g...i just think of them as my friends...

[cuddlyfemme]

Good morning all you wonderful Stone Butches! Have a wonderful day

[LaneyDoll]

I don't understand limiting your dating pool by what someone has wanted or wanted in sex. I could never not want to be with someone because of what they want or don't want sexually, I suppose if that would be a dealbreaker for me ( I can't even imagine) it would be different.

I guess I just don't see what is wrong with two people getting together and discovering what energy/magic/vibes they get off each other and rolling with it. The way I have been with one lover does not define how I will be with another lover..

It all just seems so predefined. I'm trying to understand I suppose.

Sidenote, I am reading this thread start to finish so I may make more than one comment; this is the first post I wanted to reply to.

Well said! I tend to be pretty accepting of people and their preferences. I am that way b/c I learned a long time ago to never close a door-life will close plenty for you. There again, I am an extremely open-minded person and I am still learning that it is a rare quality. I have always been of the mindset that as long as "we" enjoy each other and find what works for "us" then that is what matters. I have dated butch women, andro women and stone butches and I have found that we always seem to find what suits us.

:)

[Electrocell]

Now this looks like a thread I need to subscribe to.

[MaggieBluIze]

Good Morning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Electrocell]

Slept in this morn and man it felt good. Have to get busy here soon working on my car and a lady friend's truck.

[MaggieBluIze]

It feels so wonderful to be able to do that ... I agree!!

I think that's really great you're going to be helping your friend with her truck ... I would give anything (just about ;)) to have a friend close by that knew how to work on vehicles when needed. That is an amazingly wonderful skill to have. :)

[Electrocell]

It feels so wonderful to be able to do that ... I agree!!

I think that's really great you're going to be helping your friend with her truck ... I would give anything (just about ;)) to have a friend close by that knew how to work on vehicles when needed. That is an amazingly wonderful skill to have. :)

I just do what needs to be done lol definetly don't want to be a full time mechanic lol.

[msW8ing]

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n620/Wendy_Sampson/198429333_302385.gif

[Electrocell]

Wanders in ,looks around, shrugs and leaves.

[Converse]

Wanders in ,looks around, shrugs and leaves.

:curtain: Hello.

[Converse]

:deepthoughts:Ok Lets try this….

For the people who have partnered with a Stone Butch, I’m curious what was the “thought process” that you went through the very first time- did you discuss it before/afterwards with the Butch or others, was it a surprise, something you had to adjust to – or did you know that you were looking for a Stone, and what that would mean?

[princessbelle]

:deepthoughts:Ok Lets try this….

For the people who have partnered with a Stone Butch, I’m curious what was the “thought process” that you went through the very first time- did you discuss it before/afterwards with the Butch or others, was it a surprise, something you had to adjust to – or did you know that you were looking for a Stone, and what that would mean?

Good questions. For me, i had been on the dash site and dance awhile before i had my first experience with a Stone. I had read a lot, so i was at least somewhat knowledgable of what stone meant. I adjusted quite easily and just tried to be polite and respectful and i certainly hope that was accomplished.

What i have found, however, is that even with the ID as stone, it is still so individualized that nothing is written in...yes i'm gonna say it....stone.

I, personally, don't seek out stone, or FTM or whatever the ID. If i'm attracted, i'm attracted. If it goes farther than that and things get moving, communication is the key of course. Yes i would ask the questions of boundries which are VERY important with any ID.

I've dated a couple, ok a few, stones and none of them are exactly the same with the way they see themselves or their boundries.

Dating someone who IDs as stone, in my experience, is not a cut and dry identity and thankfully it is unique, informative, and exciting each time.

[Electrocell]

:curtain: Hello.

Hi and welcome.

[lillith]

:deepthoughts:Ok Lets try this….

For the people who have partnered with a Stone Butch, I’m curious what was the “thought process” that you went through the very first time- did you discuss it before/afterwards with the Butch or others, was it a surprise, something you had to adjust to – or did you know that you were looking for a Stone, and what that would mean?

The very first time I heard the term, I thought, "OK. They must smoke a lot of weed." I asked that question, and was very fortunate to have someone in my life who gently laughed and said, "No." When hy explained things to me, it made sense to me, but I also felt a curious mixture of excitement and repulsion. I told hym that I needed some time to digest what hy said. I understood why I was excited, but I couldn't wrap my head around why I was repulsed. After a couple of days and some serious searching, I came to the conclusion that it was too hetero. I was dedicated to my lesbian sex. I explained all of this to hym, and we agreed friends would be best. There was a nagging, deep feeling I couldn't shake about it all, though. I approached hym and asked hym to show me. And good God-Almighty, did hy ever! Things were so profound that I could no longer say that I was lesbian. I had been "flipped," as it were.

It has been many years since that story, and I have learned that there is no predescribed definition. I have met stones who are hardcore no you don't touch me except for my back to stones who don't look at their biological sex as something other than a mini cock that should be worshiped. I think the point for me is that I am who I am. I am a pleaser and giver and a receiver. What all those mean depends on the relationship and what is agreed to and at any point agreements can change because there are no set rules for me.

[CherylNYC]

Because I'm a stonefemme my ideal partner would be a stone butch. My late gf was nearly stone, so it worked out very well for us. She allowed a certain amount of touching under some rare circumstances, but it wasn't common for her to be very interested in that sort of thing.

... There was a nagging, deep feeling I couldn't shake about it all, though. I approached hym and asked hym to show me. And good God-Almighty, did hy ever! Things were so profound that I could no longer say that I was lesbian. I had been "flipped," as it were.

...I have met stones who are hardcore no you don't touch me except for my back to stones who don't look at their biological sex as something other than a mini cock that should be worshiped.

I don't see why being a stonefemme, or a stone butch for that matter, means that we aren't lesbians. My late gf IDed as such, and I certainly do, too. She was an old school butch who IDed as a lesbian, stone butch, butch dyke, and/or leatherdyke top. All of those IDs were female to her, and she didn't feel compelled to call herself anything other than a woman. A very, VERY butch woman. She had a vagina and a clit, just like any other woman. Being stone meant that she was the pitcher. My stonefemme nature means I'm the catcher. No more, no less.

I'm a lesbian and my sex is stone sex. I assume that no one on this site is going to be foolish enough to tell me that I'm not a lesbian because I'm a stonefemme.

[Gemme]

:deepthoughts:Ok Lets try this….

For the people who have partnered with a Stone Butch, I’m curious what was the “thought process” that you went through the very first time- did you discuss it before/afterwards with the Butch or others, was it a surprise, something you had to adjust to – or did you know that you were looking for a Stone, and what that would mean?

I don't think I had a conscious thought process in the matter, but looking back on past relationships, I see a very distinct movement...a graduation from one end of the spectrum to the other, with Stone being the final destination. So, when I was finally with someone who was Stone, I just *knew*.

Sure, there were specific boundaries to define and outline and, as previously mentioned, those are very specific to the individual, but relationships felt right for the first time ever. I didn't have to try so hard to be 'right' or do the 'right' things and I wasn't made to feel guilty or selfish about my own boundaries. I felt seen for the first time in forever.

That fact....the ease of it all...was surprising to me. I tend to unintentionally...subconsciously...make things more difficult than they need to be but not this.

[lillith]

Because I'm a stonefemme my ideal partner would be a stone butch. My late gf was nearly stone, so it worked out very well for us. She allowed a certain amount of touching under some rare circumstances, but it wasn't common for her to be very interested in that sort of thing.



I don't see why being a stonefemme, or a stone butch for that matter, means that we aren't lesbians. My late gf IDed as such, and I certainly do, too. She was an old school butch who IDed as a lesbian, stone butch, butch dyke, and/or leatherdyke top. All of those IDs were female to her, and she didn't feel compelled to call herself anything other than a woman. A very, VERY butch woman. She had a vagina and a clit, just like any other woman. Being stone meant that she was the pitcher. My stonefemme nature means I'm the catcher. No more, no less.

I'm a lesbian and my sex is stone sex. I assume that no one on this site is going to be foolish enough to tell me that I'm not a lesbian because I'm a stonefemme.

Cheryl, I appreciate your candid answer. You are absolutely right, no one here can tell you what your ID is. Part of the point of my post was to describe my experience as well as to show the broad range of ideas that Stone encompasses. I just don't ID as a lesbian and that doesn't make my ID any more or less than anyone else's or your's for that matter. It is not where I am in life.

[BullDog]

I am a stone butch and I am a lesbian, therefore I have lesbian sex.

[cuddlyfemme]

Good Morning Handsome Stone Butches and wonderful Stone Femme's!

[morningstar55]

morning Stoners... :)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o199/morningstar1955/09aoWSGrK.gif

ok i should know the answer to this ?
but ... does dating a stone butch .... make me a stone femme??
soo many variations

[*Anya*]

In the beginning, I knew I was lesbian but had no knowledge of all the sub-cultures within the culture.

My first GF's were femme because they were my friends. My best friend & I had a sexual relationship for a few years. I always felt like something was missing-something was: profound, visceral, sexual attraction.

Then I met my ex. She rocked my world. Besides the fact that I was able to respond to her as no others before her, I learned a great deal about lesbian culture of the time.

She never felt like a girl & frankly never really looked like one either. Her mother tried desperately to make her into one. Pictures of her as a little girl really look like a little boy in a dress. When she came out, in the bar culture, her friends strongly identified as stone.

They even had an old-school word for butches that allowed sexual touch: Kiki. In her world, you were either butch or femme, you did not "swing both ways", so to speak. She did not want to be Kiki!

I knew nothing of this sub-culture when we first got together and I did not understand this but accepted it.<<disallowed word>>

Having had relationships with selfish bio men before I came out, men who always seemed to suffer from premature ejaculation; honestly I thought I had died & gone to heaven! Someone happy to pleasure me for hours on end (hey we were young!) what's to think about?!! I fell in love with her & when you love someone, you accept them for who & what they are, right?

No actual thought process about her being stone for a long time. I
missed reciprocating but accepted it- I was too busy enjoying myself & she was too.<<disallowed word>>

Stone or not, lesbian sex is lesbian sex! I am pretty much open to whatever comes my way, I try not to use labels. Regardless if was with a stone butch, butch or TG; I would still be a queer femme, the sexual identity of my partner does not change who I am.

No thought process involved at all with that.

PS: what is the "disallowed word" thing all about? I don't understand. The word fuck is not disallowed but innocuous words are?

[CherylNYC]

morning Stoners... :)

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o199/morningstar1955/09aoWSGrK.gif

ok i should know the answer to this ?
but ... does dating a stone butch .... make me a stone femme??
soo many variations

No, it doesn't. Having your own stone boundaries around where and how you can touch your partner makes you a stone femme. For most women who ID as stonefemme, penetrating a partner is a big boundary.

You aren't defined by who you partner with. You are who you are.

[Gemme]

I don't see why being a stonefemme, or a stone butch for that matter, means that we aren't lesbians. My late gf IDed as such, and I certainly do, too. She was an old school butch who IDed as a lesbian, stone butch, butch dyke, and/or leatherdyke top. All of those IDs were female to her, and she didn't feel compelled to call herself anything other than a woman. A very, VERY butch woman. She had a vagina and a clit, just like any other woman. Being stone meant that she was the pitcher. My stonefemme nature means I'm the catcher. No more, no less.

I'm a lesbian and my sex is stone sex. I assume that no one on this site is going to be foolish enough to tell me that I'm not a lesbian because I'm a stonefemme.

Of course not! :)

I don't id as a lesbian. It just doesn't fit for me. I wouldn't wear ill-fitting clothes (well, usually) and I won't wear an ill-fitting identity on my sleeve either. I am, however, thoroughly Stone Femme.

Identities aren't exclusive, thank goodness. I like the blends and meshed identities that we have here on the site. It helps to make like interesting.

[Electrocell]

<--------------- Sits back in the corner and quietly listens .

[ScandalAndy]

<--------------- Sits back in the corner and quietly listens .

no no, you are spota help!! :)

[cuddlyfemme]

<--------------- Sits back in the corner and quietly listens .

Hi Cell! Its always nice to see you

[Electrocell]

no no, you are spota help!! :)

When you have femmes debating it's just better to keep your mouth shut lol.

Hi Cell! Its always nice to see you

Always nice to see you too Cuddly.

[ScandalAndy]

When you have femmes debating it's just better to keep your mouth shut lol.



Always nice to see you too Cuddly.



Ahhh, I see your point, but this is the butch zone, so I, for one, would like some butch input please. :)

[Electrocell]

I recently was with this femme who was just use to what I call lesbian sex. 69 etc. She was also use to being the aggressor in the relationship(sometimes that's good :D) Well I intoduced her to my butch cock and she enjoyed the hell out of it. Don't get me wrong I use my hands and my mouth still ( have to have foreplay ya know.) I also know if you don't use your cock right it can be a turn off for some femmes. So far I haven't had any complaints lol. Hope I'm allowed to say this lol.

[Electrocell]

I have to agreee with you DomnNC. I define myself as Stone but as I have read I find myself as being confussed. For myself, when I am with that special woman, When we are tgether in the bedroom, I get off by getting her off by me penertrating her. I like being touched but not penertation at all, I feel as if I were born in the wrong body, I wear mens clothing, boxers, eveything....I pack all the time so what would you classify me if not a stoner... the only thing I see if anything would be the touching... I need help//\\

Sounds to me like you are a Transgendered stonebutch. I too feel like I was born in the wrong body. Wouldn't mind having my breast removed but until they perfect the other part of the ftm operation wouldn't consider that part of it. I want to still want to beable to have an orgasm. There are all different types of stonebutches and butches.

[MainelyButch]

Wow, I've been "away" from this site for quite a bit of time and thought I would pop in and see what's going on these days. This conversation in the Butch Zone is really a great one. There can be so many variations of "Butch" and "Femme", I think we each embody different ways, just as we each have different personalities. Diversity is a wonderful thing.

I am back in southern Maine and just bought a place here. It feels great to be back "home" again. And I don't plan on straying too far, except on vacation, from now on! Figured out pretty fast that I was not cut out to live in the southern states!

Looking forward to catching up with people here, and making new friends as well. Hope you are all doing great! And having a super summmer!

~MainelyButch

[QueenofSmirks]

No, it doesn't. Having your own stone boundaries around where and how you can touch your partner makes you a stone femme. For most women who ID as stonefemme, penetrating a partner is a big boundary.

You aren't defined by who you partner with. You are who you are.

'm in agreement with a lot of what you said, but some stonefemmes actually DO identify as such because their partner ID's as stonebutch. That isn't to say that it's right or necessary for everyone, but I have read posts from other femmes that do claim their stonefemme identity is in direct relation to the fact that they date stonebutches.

[QueenofSmirks]

Of course not! :)

I don't id as a lesbian. It just doesn't fit for me. I wouldn't wear ill-fitting clothes (well, usually) and I won't wear an ill-fitting identity on my sleeve either. I am, however, thoroughly Stone Femme.

Identities aren't exclusive, thank goodness. I like the blends and meshed identities that we have here on the site. It helps to make like interesting.

I, too, do not identify as a "lesbian". The term doesn't feel right to me, and I long ago discarded it as part of any identifier for myself. I wholeheartedly embrace the word queer, but even more to my liking and fit, I identify as a queer femme.

[daisyfm]

:deepthoughts:Ok Lets try this….

For the people who have partnered with a Stone Butch, I’m curious what was the “thought process” that you went through the very first time- did you discuss it before/afterwards with the Butch or others, was it a surprise, something you had to adjust to – or did you know that you were looking for a Stone, and what that would mean?

to me there is no thought process, when i have partnered with a Stone Butch i have always known what to expect, which is awesome because i don't like surprises. when there is too much to figure out it means that something is not for you, otherwise things just flow. i knew exactly what i was looking for. there is nothing as wonderful as knowing what you want and finding it. i think...

[ScandalAndy]

to me there is no thought process, when i have partnered with a Stone Butch i have always known what to expect, which is awesome because i don't like surprises. when there is too much to figure out it means that something is not for you, otherwise things just flow. i knew exactly what i was looking for. there is nothing as wonderful as knowing what you want and finding it. i think...

But how did you know what to expect if not all stone identities encompass the same things? What kind of questions do you ask? Do you ask any questions at all? How could you tell you had addressed their desires, how could they tell they had addressed yours? This may sound dumb, but I'm not sure how to accomplish any of that without at least some dialogue.

[Converse]

Some really interesting posts, thank you for the insight. And it leads me to my next question…

Elsewhere a very young person posted that they had just discovered the term Stone, and with that discovery a lot of things started to make sense for her/hym. The person posted that until now their involvement has been only with those who identify as lesbian, and that when she/hy tries to raise the topic of how she/hy relates sexually to others they turn away. Feeling hurt and rejected, the person asked do I keep trying to explain, or do I just keep looking?

It made me think about those who have no exposure to Butch-Femme dynamics, and how because of a fear of rejection by their peer group, suppress and yearn in silence.... So, can someone id as an androgynous presenting "stone" lesbian, and find interest from a stonefemme?

Of course I have my own opinion, but am curious to hear what others might have to say.

[ScandalAndy]

Ooooh, i LIKE this thought!

First of all, I want to bring up something that stood out about your post. This individual is very young, and their partners turned away from them when dialogue was opened about their sexual desires.

This sounds to me like perhaps the youth and inexperience of this individual's partners caused them to behave selfishly or perhaps a bit immaturely in this case. It can be a folly of youth to subscribe to the idea that lesbianism means one particular way of being intimate (i fell into that trap once, myself). There may be a lack of information available to this person's partners, or this person's partners may not have the compassion or patience to explore different intimacies (another folly of youth I was guilty of once upon a time). Conversely, if a stone relationship isn't what worked best for them, it's probably in everyone's best interest to discover that as soon as possible.


That being said, I feel I can only speak from experience when I say I, as a femme, would have no problem dating an androgynous individual who self identifies as stone. Clearly a dialogue is in order prior to physical intimacy, but a person's sexual preferences and proclivities have never been enough to scare me away. I'll try anything twice. ;)



Some really interesting posts, thank you for the insight. And it leads me to my next question…

Elsewhere a very young person posted that they had just discovered the term Stone, and with that discovery a lot of things started to make sense for her/hym. The person posted that until now their involvement has been only with those who identify as lesbian, and that when she/hy tries to raise the topic of how she/hy relates sexually to others they turn away. Feeling hurt and rejected, the person asked do I keep trying to explain, or do I just keep looking?

It made me think about those who have no exposure to Butch-Femme dynamics, and how because of a fear of rejection by their peer group, suppress and yearn in silence.... So, can someone id as an androgynous presenting "stone" lesbian, and find interest from a stonefemme?

Of course I have my own opinion, but am curious to hear what others might have to say.

[CherylNYC]

Some really interesting posts, thank you for the insight. And it leads me to my next question…

...It made me think about those who have no exposure to Butch-Femme dynamics, and how because of a fear of rejection by their peer group, suppress and yearn in silence.... So, can someone id as an androgynous presenting "stone" lesbian, and find interest from a stonefemme?
.

No problems here. Presenting as androgynous wouldn't exclude a person from consideration for me. Not being a leather top would be a deal breaker, though.

[Converse]

Ooooh, i LIKE this thought!

This sounds to me like perhaps the youth and inexperience of this individual's partners caused them to behave selfishly or perhaps a bit immaturely in this case.

Yes I think you may be correct- youth is probably one of the contributing factors to the dilemma.

That being said, I feel I can only speak from experience when I say I, as a femme, would have no problem dating an androgynous individual who self identifies as stone. ;)

No problems here. Presenting as androgynous wouldn't exclude a person from consideration for me. Not being a leather top would be a deal breaker, though.

This is interesting. So should I read this to mean that it is “Stone” rather than “Butch” that is the more relevant?

I wonder if a similar perception exists for Stone Butches i.e. that the “femme” is secondary to the “stone”, that the two words are separable- allowing Stone to be attached to any ID, gender etc while still retaining its attraction.

[ScandalAndy]

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is more relevant than the other. There are some femmes who would prefer butch to androgyne regardless of stone identity, as well as some femmes whose preference require that their partner identify as stone.

Since this is a question that you are posing to femmes, I would have to assume that majority of those responding are attracted to butches or masculine-identified partners. Androgynes would, therefore, be viewed through the lens of masculinity, I believe. For instance, I personally would be okay with dating an androgynous partner because I do not see them as being firmly identified with femininity or the femme identity.

I think it is possible to separate all labels and use them as we see fit.



This is interesting. So should I read this to mean that it is “Stone” rather than “Butch” that is the more relevant?

I wonder if a similar perception exists for Stone Butches i.e. that the “femme” is secondary to the “stone”, that the two words are separable- allowing Stone to be attached to any ID, gender etc while still retaining its attraction.

[Converse]

I wouldn't necessarily say that either is more relevant than the other. There are some femmes who would prefer butch to androgyne regardless of stone identity, as well as some femmes whose preference require that their partner identify as stone.

Since this is a question that you are posing to femmes, I would have to assume that majority of those responding are attracted to butches or masculine-identified partners. Androgynes would, therefore, be viewed through the lens of masculinity, I believe. For instance, I personally would be okay with dating an androgynous partner because I do not see them as being firmly identified with femininity or the femme identity.

I think it is possible to separate all labels and use them as we see fit.

Ok I get that- please don’t take my follow up question as being a criticism – merely honest curiosity and it comes from the context of discussions that were had towards the beginning of this thread- which implied that the identity isn’t just about adding the word Stone to Butch to describe preferences in the bedroom, but in fact- was thought to be, by some (myself included), a way to describe a more holistic approach in the way that one related to the world at large.

For those of us who ascribe to the third gender belief, using “stone” with all of its assumed attributes to describe those who do not consider themselves part of the Butch- Femme community- raises some thought provoking questions.

[CherylNYC]

This is interesting. So should I read this to mean that it is “Stone” rather than “Butch” that is the more relevant?

I wonder if a similar perception exists for Stone Butches i.e. that the “femme” is secondary to the “stone”, that the two words are separable- allowing Stone to be attached to any ID, gender etc while still retaining its attraction.

I'm attracted to butch women. Very butch women. I'm unlikely to pay much attention to a suitor who is not butch, but if a more androgynous lesbian were to pursue me, and she turned out to be both stone and a sadistic leather top, I might get interested.

My peculiar history of loss informs my choice in this. My late partner was not stone, and didn't ID as butch when she met me. Until then, she had been strenuously suppressing her naturally masculine nature. When she met me she was encouraged to express it for the first time. Ever. Eventually she became quite comfortable, and WOW! was she ever butch! Throughout that relationship I was as ignorant as I could be about my own stonefemme boundaries. I suffered from tremendous guilt after she died. Once I found out this very important thing about myself, I decided that it would be a very bad idea to date a non-stone butch because my guilt around her dissatisfaction is still profound. My late partner presented as kinda androgynous when she met me, but the other required elements were in place. Once she was allowed to be butch, it just flowed naturally.

My late gf, (yes, I lost my gf after I lost my partner), had always IDed as butch, and was nearly stone. That was AWESOME! Of course a stone butch leather top a lot like her would be a natural fit for me, but I wouldn't rule out an androgynous lesbian who is stone, because my experience tells me that it could end up working for me.

[Electrocell]

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

[justanolecowboy]

I have just found my way to this site and forum ---joined a few months ago - thought I would say hi ---I am enjoying this discussion thread ---as I was just having a discussion with a co-worker today about "stone" and "transgender" ---I am stone and although I "have" had top surgery -- and have also been on T in the past ---and I most certainly feel more "male" inside ---and look fairly male as well - I know exactly how I feel and what I am - but it is hard to "put" in words for others at times ---a friend calls me 80/20 - 80%male - 20% female --:) thinks I am the best of "both" worlds ---but that doesn't always work out so well in the "real" world sometimes ---

As another poster commented - I ain't perfect - but I'm me ---and I like who I am ---I think there are as many ways to "identify" as there are people ---you just have to know who you are - be confident in that.

I am from a small community - where I am accepted (and blessed for that)- because I grew up here ---but 'understanding' or 'explaining' how I feel or identify is often times difficult ---or finding those wonderful femmes who love us stone butches ---where are you all hiding? :)

[ScandalAndy]

Ok I get that- please don’t take my follow up question as being a criticism – merely honest curiosity and it comes from the context of discussions that were had towards the beginning of this thread- which implied that the identity isn’t just about adding the word Stone to Butch to describe preferences in the bedroom, but in fact- was thought to be, by some (myself included), a way to describe a more holistic approach in the way that one related to the world at large.

For those of us who ascribe to the third gender belief, using “stone” with all of its assumed attributes to describe those who do not consider themselves part of the Butch- Femme community- raises some thought provoking questions.


No offense taken, truly. I am currently subscribing to the belief that "stone" is a descriptor used to denote that there needs to be a dialogue between that individual and the people they interact with regarding their boundaries. From this thread I have learned that I cannot assume those boundaries to be solely sexual, if at all. I've also learned that the term doesn't solely apply to butches, and there are myriad interpretations of the word based on personal experiences. This is my working definition at the moment but I am always open to re-examining that as situations arise.



Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

Androgynous, to me, is someone who is not easily identifiable as male or female in behavior, looks, etc. either by choice or nature.

[*Anya*]

I have just found my way to this site and forum ---joined a few months ago - thought I would say hi ---I am enjoying this discussion thread ---as I was just having a discussion with a co-worker today about "stone" and "transgender" ---I am stone and although I "have" had top surgery -- and have also been on T in the past ---and I most certainly feel more "male" inside ---and look fairly male as well - I know exactly how I feel and what I am - but it is hard to "put" in words for others at times ---a friend calls me 80/20 - 80%male - 20% female --:) thinks I am the best of "both" worlds ---but that doesn't always work out so well in the "real" world sometimes ---

As another poster commented - I ain't perfect - but I'm me ---and I like who I am ---I think there are as many ways to "identify" as there are people ---you just have to know who you are - be confident in that.

I am from a small community - where I am accepted (and blessed for that)- because I grew up here ---but 'understanding' or 'explaining' how I feel or identify is often times difficult ---or finding those wonderful femmes who love us stone butches ---where are you all hiding? :)
We are we? All around, yet as femmes we are not as easy to spot as a more masculine butch/stone butch/TG may be.

Back in 1992, I read the Joan Nestle book "The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader & yesterday, my Amazon copy of Persistence: All ways Butch and Femme was delivered. If you have not yet read them, they are both wonderful.

I love the newest one and the entry by Jeanne Cordova really resonated with me. One sentence in particular: "Lonely butches, particularly from Los Angeles-the lipstick-lesbian capital of the US-said they couldn't find other butches." Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
When I say butch, I am including the continuum of all things butch-including trans.

The book also has great femme contributors with terrific writing. Hope it is OK to recommend it here-no financial gain for me!

We femmes are not hiding, it is just not always easy to spot us!

[justanolecowboy]

We are we? All around, yet as femmes we are not as easy to spot as a more masculine butch/stone butch/TG may be.

Back in 1992, I read the Joan Nestle book "The Persistent Desire: A Femme-Butch Reader & yesterday, my Amazon copy of Persistence: All ways Butch and Femme was delivered. If you have not yet read them, they are both wonderful.

I love the newest one and the entry by Jeanne Cordova really resonated with me. One sentence in particular: "Lonely butches, particularly from Los Angeles-the lipstick-lesbian capital of the US-said they couldn't find other butches." Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
When I say butch, I am including the continuum of all things butch-including trans.

The book also has great femme contributors with terrific writing. Hope it is OK to recommend it here-no financial gain for me!

We femmes are not hiding, it is just not always easy to spot us!
Have read the one book - but not the other - but I'm a book-aholic so shall check it out!

[QueenofSmirks]

... Her reference was related to butches not transitioning but for me as a femme; it has been difficult to find a thriving butch-femme community in LA. It still pretty much looks like lipstick-lesbian city to me.
...


Frankly, I find that butches are difficult to find in all cities/states where I've lived, including NYC and now my current residence, Phoenix. They are few and far between, but then I suppose if I look at it mathmatically, the butch/femme community is difficult to find - "gays and lesbians" make up roughly 10% of the U.S. population - and we are a very, VERY small slice of that... so, yeah.... I guess 1% or less WOULD be difficult to find :sigh:

[Merlin]

^ uk is even more sparse :vigil:

[Gemme]

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

For me, it's the opposite. I see androgynous as having traits from both genders. A blend versus a lacking of one or the other (or both).

[Jett]

I recently was with this femme who was just use to what I call lesbian sex. 69 etc. She was also use to being the aggressor in the relationship(sometimes that's good :D) Well I intoduced her to my butch cock and she enjoyed the hell out of it. Don't get me wrong I use my hands and my mouth still ( have to have foreplay ya know.) I also know if you don't use your cock right it can be a turn off for some femmes. So far I haven't had any complaints lol. Hope I'm allowed to say this lol.
Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw ;)

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[Electrocell]

Hey Metropolis,

How ya doing? That was just my opinion,I believe each to their own,whatever you want to do in your bedroom or wherever is your business.Wasn't trying to stereotype, heteros do 69 also.Maybe I just should of said she wasn't use to butch cock to be politically correct.


Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw ;)

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[Electrocell]

Hey Metropolis,

How ya doing? That was just my opinion,I believe each to their own,whatever you want to do in your bedroom or wherever is your business.Wasn't trying to stereotype, heteros do 69 also.Maybe I just should of said she wasn't use to butch cock to be politically correct.


Hey Electrocell I may have a bone to pick, though a small one (and good to see you-this is Metropolis btw ;)

Anyway just the use of the term "lesbian sex" and refering it to 69... I don't officially ID as lesbian, but I am one and I am also Stone. So my thing here is promoting (not that you were trying to) a term like "lesbian sex" as being a concrete thing as 69 is problematic for me... like in a stereotyping thingy.

There are Stone Butch Lesbians, Stone Femme Lesbians, Stone Andro Lesbians, Stone Tomboy Lesbians... well you get it. In any case I was compelled to clear that up =)

[Midnight]

Another stone butch here. Masculine clothing, shaved head but female ID'ed. Definitely have butch c*ck though!

[cuddlyfemme]

Just popping in to say Good Morning to all you handsome Stone Butches. Have a wonderful day!

[Electrocell]

Just popping in to say Good Morning to all you handsome Stone Butches. Have a wonderful day!

Good morning to the lovely femmes too that make our butch world rock.

[cuddlyfemme]

Good morning to the lovely femmes too that make our butch world rock.

And thanks to all the butches that make our femme world rock!

[LaneyDoll]

Androgynous -------I'm thinking neither femme or masculine (genderless ). Correct me if I'm wrong . How would you describe androgynous?

The combination/presence of both male & female characteristics & qualities. Personally, I find it (and genderfluidity/queerness) to be a huge turn on.

:sparklyheart:

[cuddlyfemme]

Just popping in to say Good Morning to all the handsome Stone Butches. Its one day closer to the weekend!!!! I hope everyone has a wonderful day!

[Midnight]

Alas I will be working Sat. :( But I hope all the lovely femmes out there have a great weekend, I know I'll make up for missing Saturday on Sunday! ;)

[Bootsandheels]

(A 9 Word Poetry Challenge)
Radiance
Sleeve
Tattoo
Gift
Speechless
Thrill
Crush
Stare
Words

"Where are my words for who and what you are?
Your radiance is rendering me speechless-and I want MORE not less...
of that tribal tattoo peeking out from your shirt sleeve...
As I stare and imagine the thrill to have those arms wrapped round me...

The crush of your body as you pin me to the wall...
The gift of your lips as we fall...

Madly...

Deeply...

In love..."


Boots :stillheart:

[cuddlyfemme]

(A 9 Word Poetry Challenge)
Radiance
Sleeve
Tattoo
Gift
Speechless
Thrill
Crush
Stare
Words

"Where are my words for who and what you are?
Your radiance is rendering me speechless-and I want MORE not less...
of that tribal tattoo peeking out from your shirt sleeve...
As I stare and imagine the thrill to have those arms wrapped round me...

The crush of your body as you pin me to the wall...
The gift of your lips as we fall...

Madly...

Deeply...

In love..."


Boots :stillheart:

That was great Boots. I wish I could write like that but you did capture my thoughts exactly

[daisyfm]

But how did you know what to expect if not all stone identities encompass the same things? What kind of questions do you ask? Do you ask any questions at all? How could you tell you had addressed their desires, how could they tell they had addressed yours? This may sound dumb, but I'm not sure how to accomplish any of that without at least some dialogue.

Andy i wish i could answer this but i can't...all i can say is that i ask about boundaries always. it is important to know about those. i'll be back if i can answer this one day :)

[PapiChino]

I just don't like to be penetrated or have my genitals stroked, touched, licked, etc.

And I prefer to be in a tank top and boxers when having sex, unless I am with my partner. It took several years for me to let her see me naked.

I enjoy giving pleasure. That is erotic for me and within the sexual encounter I am aroused and cum.

[StoneOne]

Let's jump in with both boots.. < behind dark glasses real cocky grin
< Stone Butch is a identity in of it's self not male nor female. I find it to be a personal journey different for every soul. With this in mind there is really no black or white just alot of gray until you get to know us one by one.. LMAO.. That sounds like alot of fun for us AND the wonderful femmes out there. Speaking for myself... Please never touch me the way I touch u mentality or physically, Thank u... < manly charm. In giving u pleasure physically I will experience the same pleasure if this is respected. My body knows what to do... Make sense? I am giving this my best shot here and feel free to ask any questions. Let's see..... I do not consider myself FTM but will be going to rid myself of these small but still oversized birth defects... My shot at humor ? < in hopes I'm not getting to personal here. Where I am trying to lead u all is down the road a ways to see there are no steadfast rules and each and everyone of us is on journey

[StoneOne]

to somewhere. I Love leather the colors blue and black, crosses, chains, my oh my thats where's it at. I Love to hear her call me SYR and DADDY please one more.... I am all of this and more... I am many different things on many different days never should I be the lunch u reheat from yesterday... The only constant I can say is I'm the same Stone Butch u knew yesterday....

[cuddlyfemme]

Good Morning handsome Stone Butches!

[StoneOne]

to u cuddlyfemme, and all on BFP

[smouldering]

This is a great thread, very insightful :)

I guess for me I identify as queer femme babygirl, I am fluid. I have dated butches who enjoyed being touched, sucked, licked etc in a non feminizing manner and i have dated Stone butches who did not want to be touched, licked etc at all and never once did I feel like I was missing something or that it didn't feel right, it just comes naturally for me to desire my partner, to want to touch them in a way that they are comfortable and confident in being touched and each experience was amazing for both of us.
I think with anyone, there has to be that time taken to get to know them as a person, and then dive into the sexual aspect, everyone has their own limits or restrictions and i respect the hell out of that. Just my 2 cents :)

[chai~]

~bookmarking~

[cuddlyfemme]

~bookmarking~

this thread is one of the threads i subscribe to also

[StoneOne]

if we took a poll how many Stone Butches feel the need to work out at least 5 days a week, can't get enough ink and have more leather then ur local mall.......

[chai~]

if we took a poll how many Stone Butches feel the need to work out at least 5 days a week, can't get enough ink and have more leather then ur local mall.......

I'll help with the pole!!!
*adjusting my glasses and putting hair in a bun*
I've got LOTS of paper and pens to write this stuff down!!! lol

[StoneOne]

I'll help with the pole!!!
*adjusting my glasses and putting hair in a bun*
I've got LOTS of paper and pens to write this stuff down!!! lol

Poll via pictures or just yes or no....

[chai~]

Poll via pictures or just yes or no....

I personally think both would suffice! Don't you agree!!! lol

[girl_dee]

I've had the same situation where people ask why don't i date a bio guy...i tell them that nobody can make me feel the way a Stone Butch does and leave it at that.

I tell them because I don't want the bio-brain.

I want female brain with masculinity.

They usually get that.

[cuddlyfemme]

I tell them because I don't want the bio-brain.

I want female brain with masculinity.

They usually get that.

Thanks for the help Dee!!!!

[chai~]

Oh my goodness, I just re read what I wrote about the poll/pole, two very different things!!! A slip on my behalf perhaps!!!
ooops!

[StoneOne]

Oh my goodness, I just re read what I wrote about the poll/pole, two very different things!!! A slip on my behalf perhaps!!!
ooops!

thinking it was all the excitement ......

[jac]

Let's see... the best way for me to explain <<< this stone butch is that I'm a giver, not a receiver. I totally enjoy the cuddles and the loving and the affection but I have no desire whatsoever to be touched or perceived in a feminizing manner. This means anything below the waist. I get complete and total pleasure when the femme I am with is satisfied. By this I mean, I orgasm when she orgasms. It's the idea... the thought... it's a deep soulful thing to know that I am the one satisfying her needs that completely takes me over the top.
I have been in relationships where I was told that she understood my needs but six months, several years later, they asked for the unaskable. It changed things after that with each of them. I never really felt comfortable after that because I never knew if I would be asked again or if they were really okay with the arrangements we had talked about from the beginning. It's a trust and respect thing. It would be no different for a femme to tell me from the beginning that she does not like the idea of fisting or anal sex and then asking her later in the relationship if I could do that to her. Now if she changed her mind and not by my persuasion... then I would, but only at her request. Hope this helped... :koolaid:

[chrisbutch]

when you mention you are stone...some women just head for the hills....:(

[DapperButch]

when you mention you are stone...some women just head for the hills....:(

But, the alternative is doing/allowing something that doesn't fit for you, right? I say it is much better that a woman be with me if she is stone, as well, not someone who tolerates my stoneness. Ya know?

[CherylNYC]

But, the alternative is doing/allowing something that doesn't fit for you, right? I say it is much better that a woman be with me if she is stone, as well, not someone who tolerates my stoneness. Ya know?

I wish we all weren't so conditioned to rejection that we're grateful for "someone who tolerates my stoneness". I wish we could all do better than mere tolerance.

I had a date with a stone butch who hadn't previously identified herself as such to me. When I told her I was a stonefemme and explained what that meant to me, she said, "I'm LOVING this". I wish it could always work out that way.

[DapperButch]

I wish we all weren't so conditioned to rejection that we're grateful for "someone who tolerates my stoneness". I wish we could all do better than mere tolerance.



I agree. I want to be with someone who seeks a stone butch, not tolerates it. I have been fortunate in that regard.

[cuddlyfemme]

I wish we all weren't so conditioned to rejection that we're grateful for "someone who tolerates my stoneness". I wish we could all do better than mere tolerance.


I totally agree with this statement. Its hard to find a Stone Butch who "gets it" not just tolerates it

[MysticOceansFL]

A stone butch is a woman who is strongly masculine in character and dress, who tops their partners sexually (and sometimes emotionally), and who does not wish to be touched genitally. Not all stone butches identify in female terms, some are known to identify with male pronouns, and many stone butches - not all, but many - do not identify themselves with lesbian or within the lesbian community. A common partner for a stone butch is a Stone Femme, who is a femme who bottoms sexually or who wishes not to touch the genitals of her stone butch partner. This is not one hundred percent of the former or latter but is a overall old school pattern. Butches are very diverse in emotion and sexual expression.

[chrisbutch]

But, the alternative is doing/allowing something that doesn't fit for you, right? I say it is much better that a woman be with me if she is stone, as well, not someone who tolerates my stoneness. Ya know?

Thanks, yes you are right of course..
well...she hasn't run, as it happens......so we will see..

[DapperButch]

I totally agree with this statement. Its hard to find a Stone Butch who "gets it" not just tolerates it

To clarify, I am assuming what you mean is it is hard to find a non stone butch who gets it, right? A stone butch would get it b/c they are stone like you, right?

As an aside, I do understand why it would be hard for someone of a non stone nature to understand how the way we stones have sex could meet someone's sexual needs.

[LaneyDoll]

But, the alternative is doing/allowing something that doesn't fit for you, right? I say it is much better that a woman be with me if she is stone, as well, not someone who tolerates my stoneness. Ya know?

Ok, I am curious now. And I want to get a few thoughts on this (please be nice, I am simply curious-not trying to start anything).

I am femme but not stone femme. I have never had a problem with dating a stone butch and have dated more than one. I do not mind that someone identifes as stone and has personal preferences about how/if/where they are touched. I have always been of the mindset that if my needs are met then I am happy; it is actually a good fit because I tend to "crash" if those needs are met well. However, if I am dating someone that enjoys being touched, I am good there too. I think I am flexible based on my partner. I believe that if everything is good out of the bedroom and I get what I need in it, then the rest (ie, their personal choices) is 100% negotiable.

So, I want to know, does this make me seem that I "tolerate" someone's stoneness or does it show that I "accept" it?

:sparklyheart:

[kannon]

Ok, I am curious now. And I want to get a few thoughts on this (please be nice, I am simply curious-not trying to start anything).

I am femme but not stone femme. I have never had a problem with dating a stone butch and have dated more than one. I do not mind that someone identifes as stone and has personal preferences about how/if/where they are touched. I have always been of the mindset that if my needs are met then I am happy; it is actually a good fit because I tend to "crash" if those needs are met well. However, if I am dating someone that enjoys being touched, I am good there too. I think I am flexible based on my partner. I believe that if everything is good out of the bedroom and I get what I need in it, then the rest (ie, their personal choices) is 100% negotiable.

So, I want to know, does this make me seem that I "tolerate" someone's stoneness or does it show that I "accept" it?

:sparklyheart:

To me, it means that you accept and respect your partner. Its all about the attitude. _

[cuddlyfemme]

Its here....Friday! Have a wonderful weekend all you handsome Stone Butches and Femme's that adore Stone Butches!

[DapperButch]

Ok, I am curious now. And I want to get a few thoughts on this (please be nice, I am simply curious-not trying to start anything).

I am femme but not stone femme. I have never had a problem with dating a stone butch and have dated more than one. I do not mind that someone identifes as stone and has personal preferences about how/if/where they are touched. I have always been of the mindset that if my needs are met then I am happy; it is actually a good fit because I tend to "crash" if those needs are met well. However, if I am dating someone that enjoys being touched, I am good there too. I think I am flexible based on my partner. I believe that if everything is good out of the bedroom and I get what I need in it, then the rest (ie, their personal choices) is 100% negotiable.

So, I want to know, does this make me seem that I "tolerate" someone's stoneness or does it show that I "accept" it?

:sparklyheart:

Good point. I am glad you asked because it gives me the opportunity to clarify. I think that if someone feels completely satisfied with either a stone or non-stone partner, than acceptance would be a better word.

For me, in thinking about it, if I was with someone who could go either way, I think there would be a part of me that would always wonder if they were getting their needs met...or if they could get their needs met long term.

Granted, I am a "no touch", stone butch. Maybe if I were a "no penetration, but everything else is fine", stone butch, or a "don't touch me up top, but touch me everywhere else", stone butch, I would struggle less with understanding how one could go either way. Get what I am saying? If one enjoys touching/licking/sucking female genitals/breasts, then how could they possibly be able to get all of their sexual needs met without being able to have at least some contact with their partner's breasts/genitals? Is it analogous to the bisexual person who can be satisfied with only dating one sex (rather than the bisexual person who needs to have both sexes in order to be satisfied)?

Interesting subject, thanks for raising it. :)

[jac]

Good point. I am glad you asked because it gives me the opportunity to clarify. I think that if someone feels completely satisfied with either a stone or non-stone partner, than acceptance would be a better word.

For me, in thinking about it, if I was with someone who could go either way, I think there would be a part of me that would always wonder if they were getting their needs met...or if they could get their needs met long term.

Granted, I am a "no touch", stone butch. Maybe if I were a "no penetration, but everything else is fine", stone butch, or a "don't touch me up top, but touch me everywhere else", stone butch, I would struggle less with understanding how one could go either way. Get what I am saying? If one enjoys touching/licking/sucking female genitals/breasts, then how could they possibly be able to get all of their sexual needs met without being able to have at least some contact with their partner's breasts/genitals? Is it analogous to the bisexual person who can be satisfied with only dating one sex (rather than the bisexual person who needs to have both sexes in order to be satisfied)?

Interesting subject, thanks for raising it. :)


I kind of have to agree with Dapper on this... I would also wonder if her needs were actually being met, because what I'm getting from this is that, if you can go either way then somewhere inside you wants to touch, etc. I cannot provide that for the other person so I would have a sense of guilt because deep I would think that I am not fulfilling their needs fully.. which for me.. being the extreme stone giver, is what gets my needs met.

I guess if you have someone who is okay with a partner willing and accepting of going either way then that is a good fit... it's just not a good for me.

Thanks for asking... :koolaid:

[justanolecowboy]

Thanks for starting this thread, I was wondering why there wasn't something for Stones
I was trying to explain to a friend a week ago or so what a Stone Butch was and equally what a Stone Femme was. After explaining, she realized that she's a Stone Femme!!
I adore Stone Butches, they totally get my get my pulse racing and my heart racing. There's nothing like an Old Fashioned Stone Butch...now if I could only fine a Single one lol

___Oh...we stone butches are out there...(single ones) ... just waiting...and searching...for that one femme who will appreciate us for all that we are and can be.... thanks for your post!

[SweetJane]

Thanks for this thread. It took me awhile to realize that I was a stone femme but finding that identity freed me and explained a lot of things in my life. Stones need their counterparts---stone butch and stone femme--because we understand like no other what it's like being stone or how much pleasure there is in finding that right complement to us.

I'm still looking. And since we are such a small percentage of the b-f community, which is a small percentage of the lesbian community, my search will be difficult. But I'm very glad for the discussion and the community on this thread.

[spritzerJ]

Let's see... the best way for me to explain <<< this stone butch is that I'm a giver, not a receiver. I totally enjoy the cuddles and the loving and the affection but I have no desire whatsoever to be touched or perceived in a feminizing manner. This means anything below the waist. I get complete and total pleasure when the femme I am with is satisfied. By this I mean, I orgasm when she orgasms. It's the idea... the thought... it's a deep soulful thing to know that I am the one satisfying her needs that completely takes me over the top.
I have been in relationships where I was told that she understood my needs but six months, several years later, they asked for the unaskable. It changed things after that with each of them. I never really felt comfortable after that because I never knew if I would be asked again or if they were really okay with the arrangements we had talked about from the beginning. It's a trust and respect thing. It would be no different for a femme to tell me from the beginning that she does not like the idea of fisting or anal sex and then asking her later in the relationship if I could do that to her. Now if she changed her mind and not by my persuasion... then I would, but only at her request. Hope this helped... :koolaid:

sigh....sounds wonderful...

[Heavenleahangel]

___Oh...we stone butches are out there...(single ones) ... just waiting...and searching...for that one femme who will appreciate us for all that we are and can be.... thanks for your post!

.....gets high powered binoculars and telescopes out to look for single, sane, (well, somewhat sane), honorable stone butches! Maybe I need to shake the bushes a little and see what I can find there! :glasses:

[Heavenleahangel]

Ok, I am curious now. And I want to get a few thoughts on this (please be nice, I am simply curious-not trying to start anything).

I am femme but not stone femme. I have never had a problem with dating a stone butch and have dated more than one. I do not mind that someone identifes as stone and has personal preferences about how/if/where they are touched. I have always been of the mindset that if my needs are met then I am happy; it is actually a good fit because I tend to "crash" if those needs are met well. However, if I am dating someone that enjoys being touched, I am good there too. I think I am flexible based on my partner. I believe that if everything is good out of the bedroom and I get what I need in it, then the rest (ie, their personal choices) is 100% negotiable.

So, I want to know, does this make me seem that I "tolerate" someone's stoneness or does it show that I "accept" it?

:sparklyheart:

Laneydoll; I just wanted to say I like the way you worded your post. I think it means you accept this as there is nothing derogative or "bad" to tolerate.

[Heavenleahangel]

I am curious about myself as well. Do you think it is strange that when I am dating a ftm or someone who is stone that my mind just automatically "avoids" the areas that are off limits or in the case of a ftm, I just naturally associate that person as male-just like they present themselves as there is nothing feminine or feminizing about them? I have had many conversations where I have defended myself that "I couldnt possibly see someone as something other than what they are born as." It really offends me. Does this make me "strange"?
Dont get me wrong, I am all about pleasing my partner and making them feel good, but its almost as if its instilled in me that I *know* how to accomplish this without making them uncomfortable, overstepping boundaries or trying to do something they don't appreciate.

[spritzerJ]

Its interesting that you should write that there is an energy that is particular to Stones- of course I have heard of those who prefer to partner with Stones but I had always considered that a preference for a certain type of dynamic but had never contemplated that there was a “Stone energy”. Elsewhere in an attempt to clarify what is meant by a “feminizing touch” in the context of a Stone I wrote… self fulfillment comes from being externally focused, by that I do not refer to my external self- but to my sexual partner. Being inside her both physically and mentally is where I find my “on” switch.

The musician reaches that other place when hy brings the instrument alive- together each is able to experience their potential- realize what they were made for. I was not made to have another take me in hand; I was made to be with someone who does not simply allow, but wants, needs to surrender. And in that surrender she allows me to be who I truly am.

While some will equate Stone to simply having personal limits, for me it is far more encompassing- Stone isn’t about sex with restrictions, it is about everything- it is how we perceive the world, but more importantly it is about how we relate, understand, communicate, and connect to another.

A Stone Butch is a Stone Butch- regardless if they are partnered- but without the one who “gets it”, they are not a musician, simply a person who knows how to play a musical instrument.

exactly... this feels just right... I must memorize this...I want some one is on with my surrender because that is what I want.

[Miss July]

when you mention you are stone...some women just head for the hills....:(

Now that's just plain sad.....................They don't know what they are missing.................leaves more for us to appreciate & adore.

Love the masculine energy you guys ooze.

[Heavenleahangel]

Now that's just plain sad.....................They don't know what they are missing.................leaves more for us to appreciate & adore.

Love the masculine energy you guys ooze.

Well said, Miss July! I do agree with you!

[Martina]

i have been with stone butches for long periods of time and did not miss having other kinds of sex. i was emotionally connected to the person, and we were having good sex. i did not languish thinking about what kinds of sex i could have with another person. i enjoyed my connection.

i do get annoyed when people say that the relationships i have had with stone butches can't compare to the relationship a stone femme has with a stone butch. i do not feel that my connections lacked anything.

i am sure that stone femmes have a je ne sais quoi, but i have some things to offer too. An experienced bottom makes a good candidate for pleasing a stone partner. We are conduits of energy. It's what we do. Moreover, we are good readers of the other, as are many stone butches. Or as were many stone butches of my generation. The combination of two very intuitive people in bed is pretty damned hot. It has worked for me, anyway.

[imperfect_cupcake]

i have been with stone butches for long periods of time and did not miss having other kinds of sex. i was emotionally connected to the person, and we were having good sex. i did not languish thinking about what kinds of sex i could have with another person. i enjoyed my connection.

i do get annoyed when people say that the relationships i have had with stone butches can't compare to the relationship a stone femme has with a stone butch. i do not feel that my connections lacked anything.

i am sure that stone femmes have a je ne sais quoi, but i have some things to offer too. An experienced bottom makes a good candidate for pleasing a stone partner. We are conduits of energy. It's what we do. Moreover, we are good readers of the other, as are many stone butches. Or as were many stone butches of my generation. The combination of two very intuitive people in bed is pretty damned hot. It has worked for me, anyway.

thanks martina. I pretty much feel the same way. my recent foray had showed me once again, that it's the person (and frankly how filthy they are in bed) not the acts that are important to me.

that said, if I was unable to give head to someone's personal flesh cock (without the strapped appendage) that might be a hard line for me. I love sucking when it's on, but also giving head when it's not. I don't see it as feminising as its not a feminine area - it's their cock. I don't give a toss what shape it is. for me, that's what it is.

so the stones that have no problem with me giving flesh head, there isn't a problem. Couldn't give a rat's ass one way or another about the rest of the stuff I can and can't do. I care more about having dirty, hot, sex. And to do that both people have to be respected. Some people don't like having anal sex - for an anal lover that would be a big deal. for someone who didn't like giving anal, it's a non issue. for people who just want to have hot mutual sex, it's not an issue either.

I'm not a stone femme. But I'm respectful, filthy, fun and caring and I enjoy all that goes along with it. besides, just cause someone is stone doesn't mean they don't like having their hands tied behind them and then lap danced/sucked off. stone doesn't always mean "in control" either. I've recently had this pleasure. And besides it's even more fun after you untie and they want to get even. lol.

I know lots of people regardless of their sexuality don't enjoy that, but just because someone is one kind (stone) doesn't mean they don't enjoy a tussle and a bit of feisty power swapping/struggle.

besides, I flip like a pancake in the end with the right people so it's all in good healthy dirty fun, eh?*

and no one has ever complained or been left wanting, including me.


disclaimer* for those who enjoy it.

[CherylNYC]

i have been with stone butches for long periods of time and did not miss having other kinds of sex. i was emotionally connected to the person, and we were having good sex. i did not languish thinking about what kinds of sex i could have with another person. i enjoyed my connection.

i do get annoyed when people say that the relationships i have had with stone butches can't compare to the relationship a stone femme has with a stone butch. i do not feel that my connections lacked anything.

i am sure that stone femmes have a je ne sais quoi, but i have some things to offer too. An experienced bottom makes a good candidate for pleasing a stone partner. We are conduits of energy. It's what we do. Moreover, we are good readers of the other, as are many stone butches. Or as were many stone butches of my generation. The combination of two very intuitive people in bed is pretty damned hot. It has worked for me, anyway.

You are so right about this, Martina. Energy exchange is a hard thing to describe, but I find it to be one of the primary features of stone sex, (or my version of it, anyway). Being receptive is a natural continuum of sexual submission for me.

And I'm sure you have a lot more to offer than just "some things"!

[LaneyDoll]

Laneydoll; I just wanted to say I like the way you worded your post. I think it means you accept this as there is nothing derogative or "bad" to tolerate.

Thank you! To me, "stone" is not something bad or something to tolerate. It is simply who someone is. For me it is like someone's ethnicity, hair color etc. It is just who they are. I "tolerate" someone who snores-lol.

To all the stones out there (whether butch or femme), if someone "tolerates" who you are at your core, you may need to find someone else. Someone who embraces it.

:sparklyheart:

[Heavenleahangel]

Thank you! To me, "stone" is not something bad or something to tolerate. It is simply who someone is. For me it is like someone's ethnicity, hair color etc. It is just who they are. I "tolerate" someone who snores-lol.

To all the stones out there (whether butch or femme), if someone "tolerates" who you are at your core, you may need to find someone else. Someone who embraces it.

:sparklyheart:

Again, nicely said, LaneyDoll! I totally agree with you. If a stone is only being "tolerated" (whether butch or femme) then, they are soooo under-respected and not being treated/spoiled like they should be! If someone can't embrace all of me, then they can't enjoy the parts of me they want! It's all or nothing! Isn't that the way it should be?

[SweetJane]

I agree Heavenleahangel and LaneyDoll! It is just a part of who we are.

Discovering that I'm a stone femme answered a lot of questions in my life and explained much. I was finally at peace when I realized that was who I was. But as a stone femme (and I'm sure stone butches know this instinctively) I find myself set slightly apart from the community. I'm not eager to rush into romantic connections with others because I know that only a small majority of the community is stone or fully understands it. I'm reluctant to let my heart lead as I mingle among people because there is such a mix of identities where I live. I really don't want to become fond of someone, knowing I could never deliver all that they would require in an intimate relationship. So I have concentrated on finding friends and keep those boundaries.

The B-F community is a fraction of the wider community and we stones are a small portion of that. We should be kind to each other and give each other respect.

[Converse]

Attraction is an interesting thing, particularly instant attraction. It’s that time when hidden (often even to ourselves) yearnings surface and our being goes into alert mode without any involvement from our brain.

What I always find curious is that occasionally when time passes is that intellect and social pressures can often drive us to want to change the object of our initial attraction. Like the partner for example who begins to critique their other as being too masculine or too feminine – and for the sake of the relationship the other attempts to modify and stifle.

When there is an attraction and we enjoy all that the person is and at the same time feel confident in our assumption that the “stone part” is something that will change over time, we do so because we have reduced the essence of being Stone to simply being about sexual acts. Like a Deliahs request to have Samson visit the barber, much more can be lost in that request than simply the mane of hair.

I understand the analogy raised about sexual bottoms and it may or may not be relevant in the context of sexual encounters with Stone tops, but in my mind topping/bottoming is a whole other conversation that can easily be had without the word stone being used. I’m sure I’m not the only Stone Butch who has enjoyed “encounters” with femmes who have not identified as stone, and yes D/s and Top/bottom dynamics may all be part of the equation but they can easily exist outside of a Stone paradigm.

When talking about a Stone paradigm I’m referring to: A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them – this is what one Stone can offer another, it doesn’t require an explanation- it simply is, and the practices in the bedroom are merely a part of that continuum.

[SweetJane]

Converse. Well said as always, but especially:
"When talking about a Stone paradigm I’m referring to: A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them – this is what one Stone can offer another, it doesn’t require an explanation- it simply is, and the practices in the bedroom are merely a part of that continuum."

This is something I'm beginning to understand. It is a way of being that just is.... as is being butch or femme is.

But stone isn't a manner of dress, for example, that alerts us to others or, most especially, those we want to attract. And there lies the other part that may be as invisible as femmeness is in the hetero world. For stone femmes, it may be us who have to give some indication we are attracted to who we perceive our our counterparts. How else will they know?