Obama's Public Support of Michael Vick

[Melissa]

I had never heard of Michael Vick until the charges and conviction of animal cruelty and dog fighting came out in the media. I think it comes down to money. He has skills and talent that people can make money from so it doesn't surprise me he is back in the NFL. Did Obama give a reason for his public support of Vick? Is Vick or the team he works for a big contributor to the Democratic Party. Of all the things on a President's plate it seems an odd thing to take time out to do unless campaign contributions play a big part in all this at some level. Or am I just way off here?

Melissa

[suebee]

For many years I rooted for Vick. He was/is so talented. He started changing things for Atlanta (football wise) for the better. He became a role model for many people. Then he got busted and I was crushed. And then I watched a nat geo special on what happened to the dogs that were found on his property and the depth of cruelty they endured. I was angry. It bothered me to my core. But this wasn't just about Michael Vick but the depravity of men. So what I'm saying here is that it bothered me on a deep level.

I've never looked at as a race thing but perhaps more of a gender thing. How many times have you heard one of your gal friends saying, "hey, there's dog fights at Sally's Saturday night, we should go!"

I didn't look at it as 'oh no, he's a POC (as Snow stated) but I did think what a shame WE have lost a great role model because a lot of kids really looked up to him.

With his recent success it didn't bother me that the President called him. But I do struggle internally. I don't want to root for him. I am no longer a fan, all the respect I had for him is gone. But I think I'm flawed in my thinking because I should root for him - perhaps not the football player, but for the man. Truth is, the more successful he is, the louder his voice. Perhaps he can make a difference for the better. That is my hope, that is my prayer.

~~~shark~~~~~~~

Somebody else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the President called the owner of the team, not Vick. The stated purpose of the call was to congratulate him for giving someone who'd done time in prison a second chance.

[suebee]

*You* don't think Vick has gotten it, but in all honesty how do *you* know? like I said in my bolded post, he could prove ya'll wrong it ain't gonna matter, it's pretty fucking obvious cause a call for his death was voiced I don't see you having as much passion about it as you do an animal.

So yeah we aren't gonna agree.


Read his blog (I forgot to post it in my post)


http://globalgrind.com/channel/news/content/912587/michael-vick-blogs-my-heart-hurtsto-think-of-what-ive-done/


Maybe then just maybe (I doubt it) you will be satisfied with his regrets.

You used the term "that culture?" Could you define "that culture?" I'm not sure what culture you're referring to, and I don't want to make assumptions.

Blush: if you click on Snowy's link you can read about it in Michael Vick's own words. That's what I was referring to by "that culture".

The region where I grew up had an underground culture of cock fighting - it would seem very similar to Vick's upbringing.

Sue

[Nat]

Cause see, my whole life has been numb. I was numb to the violence in my community...cause I saw it all the time, ever since I was a child. I mean, how does one grow up in a city that's nickname is Bad Newz? You can probably guess that from the jump, ya' know I've seen some bad things in my life.

But, what I didn't realize then, that I have begun to realize now, is that even though I had more money in my pocket, big cars and big houses, I was still numb. And when I say numb, I ain't talkin about not realizing the stuff that was going on around me, it was just like I was living life asleep.

Some of Vick's blog post sounds like PTSD to me.

from the National Center for PTSD article Criminal Behavior and PTSD (http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/ptsd-criminal-behavior.asp):

Changes in feelings

■Distress: When reminded of a trauma, those with PTSD have high levels of distress. This is likely to affect their judgment and make them less able to use reason in their responses.

■Negative Feelings: Those with PTSD often have high levels of fear, worry, guilt, anger, shame, or depression. These unpleasant feelings may lead them to use drugs and alcohol in an attempt to feel better. Substance use and abuse can in turn cloud judgment and cause them to do things they might not normally do. Also, guilt may lead survivors to commit acts that will likely result in their being punished, injured or killed.

■Feeling Numb: At the same time, another class of PTSD symptoms, emotional numbing, may lead to wrongful or criminal behavior because the sufferer has:

■Less empathy or feeling sorry for the victim
■Trouble feeling remorse or guilt for their acts
■Trouble sensing how severe and grave their criminal act is, or what the results may be
Numbing could also lead some survivors to engage in "thrill-seeking" behaviors as they try to feel some type of emotion.

And the article - Criminal Behavior and PTSD: An Analysis (http://www.ptsd.va.gov/professional/pages/criminal-behavior-ptsd.asp)

Research shows that higher rates of aggressive behavior are seen in those with PTSD, compared to those without PTSD. For example, the National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study found that male Veterans diagnosed with PTSD versus those without PTSD committed significantly more acts of violence against family and others. On average, those with PTSD committed 13.3 violent acts in the prior year, compared to 3.54 acts for Veterans without PTSD.

Other studies found that the prevalence of PTSD in prison inmates is higher than in the general population. It is important to note that any relationship between PTSD and crime could be correlational rather than causative. That is to say, a third factor could give rise to both PTSD and criminal behavior. Also, research findings on the relationship between PTSD and crime are variable due to methodological differences among studies.


Emotional numbness seems to be mostly associated with either depression or ptsd. Either way it sounds like he doesn't (or maybe didn't) have a whole lot of empathy - that he has more with people than with animals (which i think is generally true of most people) so if he truly feels regret now it's because he's been able to feel a bit of empathy for the other people who have feelings of empathy toward the dogs. If his trouble was a deficit of empathy, it seems people have a deficit of empathy toward him too.

With the shooting of Gabby Giffords, first people blamed, then people generally started looking at causes. With the shooter, people tend to talk about gun control or they tend to talk about the state of mental health assistance in this country. It's obvious that guy has something wrong with his head if you watch his youtubes. But I think white people have traditionally been more prone to jump toward a psychology-oriented conclusion about another white person. (Meaning white people tend to seek understanding when other white people commit crimes).

It's also a lot easier to to demonize Michael Vick because it's way easier to look at what he did and point the finger - than to look at what happened to that poor animal you yourself ate for dinner last night - whose lifetime probably contained even less joy and more suffering than some of those dogs.

I've noticed white people tend to like Hemingway (though maybe that's just the white people I know) despite his love affair with bullfighting and killing things.

'Nobody ever lives their life all the way up except bull-fighters.'
- Chapter 2, The Sun Also Rises, Ernest Hemingway

And Madonna seemed to advocate for bullfighting when this video was made:

208rVspxK_g

(and by the way, this is a very sanitized version of what bullfighting entails). White people didn't call for her death after that video was made.

remember that cute little disney movie called "The Fox and the Hound"?

Dsc_dQZNzIE

The reason they were destined to be pitted against each other was because the hound was going to grow up to hunt foxes. (A tradition originated in England).

In the US it's perfectly accepted to eat cow, chicken, lamb and pig - no matter what sufferings they endure before they end up on your plate. lobsters (cooked alive, mind you). Raw oysters are eaten alive and nobody bats an eye. There's a growing trend in the US for eating octopi and lobsters while they are still alive. Hunting is a huge "sport" here in the US. Few people have issues with horse-racing, but horse-racing also involves animal cruelty. Nobody called for Julia Roberts' death after she was seen at the races in the movie, "Pretty Woman."

Ever worn silk? Do you know where it comes from? Silk-worms make their little coccoons and settle down for a nice metamorphosis, and then people take the coccoons and heat them to death. Bugs are pretty fair game for most people though.

People failing to spay/neuter their pets is one of the primary reasons that most animal shelters cannot be no-kill shelters.

Hey, guess where dogfighting came from? Per NPR (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12108421):

When the Romans invaded Britain in 43 A.D., both sides brought fighting dogs to the battlefield for the seven years of warfare that followed. The Romans may have won the war, but the British dazzled the victors with the ferocity of their dogs, which were far more battle-ready than their Roman counterparts.

Thus emerged a canine market of sorts. The Romans began to import British fighting dogs for use not only in times of war, but also for public amusement. In Rome's Colosseum, large audiences would gather to watch gladiator dogs pitted against other animals, such as wild elephants. The vicious dogs, thought to have been crossbred with the Romans' own fighting breed, were also exported to France, Spain and other parts of Europe, eventually finding their way back to Britain.

The Evolution of a Sport

By the 12th century, the practice of baiting — releasing fighting dogs into the ring with chained bulls and bears — had grown in popularity in England. For several centuries, baiting was considered a respectable form of entertainment among the English nobility. The practice, during which the dogs scratched and bit the bulls, was also used to tenderize meat for consumption. But by the early 19th century, the increasing scarcity and rising cost of bulls and bears, as well as growing concern about the issue of animal cruelty, damped the appeal of the sport. In 1835, the British Parliament outlawed all baiting activities. Following the law's passage, dog-on-dog combat emerged as the cheaper, legal alternative to baiting. Fighting dogs were crossbred with other breeds to create a fast, agile and vicious animal capable of brawling for hours at a time.


Anyway, animals are treated like shit in this world and I think it's extremely short-sighted to villify this one guy. It seems like a type of denial, a type of externalizing behavior.

Charlie Sheen can threaten his significant other with a knife, and he's still sitting pretty on 2 and a half men. White violence and black violence are not thought of or treated the same in the media or in the justice system in the US.

I think Vick says some really interesting things - instructive things - in his blog post.

Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was.

It wasn't punishment, anger, revenge or shaming that helped Michael Vick feel anything about what he'd done. It was connection with people - it was people who took the time and who were brave enough to set aside talk of violence and revenge and instead sought that connection and understanding.

A while back now, there was a kid that made a gay-bashing game. Here, there was a thread about it. A few of us responded in anger. Diva had the presence of mind to reach out to the kid, who wrote back very politely and said he would remove the game. He had been fine with the angry comments on his game, but it was Diva's graciousness and respect, coupled with a genuine interest in his understanding the effects of his behavior, that caused him to change. Sounds like a similar phenomenon to me.

I know this post is kinda everywhere but hey so am I.

PS. Did I mention pate de foie gras?

32815SIgq1A

[DapperButch]

Blush: if you click on Snowy's link you can read about it in Michael Vick's own words. That's what I was referring to by "that culture".

The region where I grew up had an underground culture of cock fighting - it would seem very similar to Vick's upbringing.

Sue

suebee,

Just wanted to say that although you didn't indicate I was off track or anything, I should not have spoken for you. Not sure why I did that...maybe b/c it was an older thread and didn't know if you would come back here?

Regardless, I shouldn't have. Sorry.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Netflix is streaming Michael Vick's show called:

The Michael Vick Project

http://biermagazine.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Michael-Vick.jpg

He was once the highest paid NFL star in history. He lost it all when he was convicted of bank rolling a dog fighting ring out of his own house. After two years in federal prison and losing everything he had, Michael Vick will attempt to make his way back as a football player, family man & role model

[J. Mason]

Netflix is streaming Michael Vick's show called:

The Michael Vick Project

http://biermagazine.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Michael-Vick.jpg

He was once the highest paid NFL star in history. He lost it all when he was convicted of bank rolling a dog fighting ring out of his own house. After two years in federal prison and losing everything he had, Michael Vick will attempt to make his way back as a football player, family man & role model


This makes me sick to my stomach I can't believe he has his own show.

[The_Lady_Snow]

This makes me sick to my stomach I can't believe he has his own show.

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

[J. Mason]

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

Yeah I don't like the idea of Casey Anthony going free but I do not believe in second chances for what either of them did. But that is just me.

[Toughy]

This makes me sick to my stomach I can't believe he has his own show.

I'm very happy he has his own show. He has been working hard (in partnership with the Humane Society and others) across the country to end dog fighting. This show sounds like it will be another way for him to get the message of redemption and forgiveness out to others.

People can and do change. Vick deserves praise for what he is now doing.

[dykeumentary]

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

Hell yes! If white America is still angry with a Black man after he served the sentence assigned to his crime,

White america can see this as an example of it's racism (i.e. Black men are not redeemable)

And/or

Outraged people need to be visible in participating more fully in their judicial/sentencing system. I'd like to see who they are, and participation in developing community standards is a valuable process.

And so much more.

[EnderD_503]

He apologized here are some of his OWN words from his blog..

"What I did was horrendous. Awful. Inhumane. And I've no excuses for my actions. It makes my heart hurt now to think about what I've done. And I'm gonna be real honest, it took a while for me to get to this place. Sitting in a prison cell didn't make me feel remorse. It was meeting so many animal lovers, speaking with them and looking them in their eyes. Staring at them. Looking so deep into their eyes that I began to feel their pain. Allowing that pain to enter into my body is when I started to understand how bad it really was."


Thanks for posting this Lady Snow. There are some parts of this that really resonate with how I feel about dealing with people who have committed some criminal acts that we see as atrocious in our society. I've bolded the bit that really hit home to me. From that excerpt, it shows him saying that he learned more from educating himself on animal rights, changing his perspectives on animals and their ability to feel, and on rehabilitating himself, than from being directly punished for his actions.

I've noticed a few things with the way some here (both in this thread and others) talk about people who have been convicted of crimes, especially where violence is concerned. I feel that many continue to take an eye for an eye mentality, and the idea that people cannot change or that people don't commit crimes because of their own experiences. What many fail to understand is that an overwhelming number of crimes committed (and yes, many of them horrendously atrocious) are committed because of an individual's upbringing and social situation. This is why many of the people incarcerated for these acts are from marginalized communities; people who come from certain nations, certain neighbourhoods, certain economic backgrounds, who have suffered discrimination a good chunk of their life because of their race, nationality, sexual orientation, religion, gender identity etc. And we perpetuate the discriminatory laws, social practices and environments that often result in these crimes, by claiming that once these acts are committed, that those who committed them can't be rehabilitated, that they must be shunned perpetually, that they are by nature "monsters."

And yet there are countless examples of successful rehabilitation even among the most "atrocious" crimes. Institutions which take rehabilitation over punishment seriously, show very low numbers of repeated offense when compared to the punishment/banishing system.

If a person grew up in an environment where animals were not considered to have the capability to feel pain or despair, or where animals were not treated humanely, then it is no wonder that they continue the cycle of animal abuse. I remember talking to an acquaintance from Pakistan about his own experiences with animals as a kid, and where he partook in animal abuse. He had described an occasion where he and some friends had allowed a cat to drown by not letting it out of a body of water, and how they saw it as a sort of game to deter the cat from getting out of the water. He looks back on it as a really cruel thing to do and regrets its wholeheartedly, but back then he didn't see it that way, and it wasn't alarming to adult society, either. Does that make Pakistani society a society of "monsters" or "sociopaths" who should be punished by the "morally superior" western world? No. Because that is not how people see cats/animals in general where he grew up. He sees things differently now, and not for some racist reason of the west "bringing civility" or some similar bullshit, but because the original frame of reference has been widened and a greater understanding of the nature of animals and their capabilities occurred for him. As humans, we are extremely flexible and adaptable. We are forever learning new things, which utterly change our worldviews.

Many people who grow up in abusive or violent environments become abusive and violent themselves because they perceive it as a part of the currency of that environment. Does it mean everyone becomes that way? No. But many do. If we condemn people without giving them the opportunity to rehabilitate or educate themselves with information many of us take for granted, we will find ourselves continuing to overwhelmingly incarcerate people from marginalized backgrounds because of their backgrounds...which were, in turn, created by discriminatory social practices to begin with.

Does this mean the crime is "excused." No, that is fallacious thinking that assumes that in order for a person to "pay" for a crime they must suffer or be punished. But I don't think that does much good. Instead, what I'm saying means that people are convicted with the intent toward rehabilitation...not to punish them perpetually when they are entirely capable of change.

It's a horrible cycle that needs to end.

[suebee]

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue

[Toughy]

I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Yanno he could of served 20 years and I'm sure that STILL wouldn't of been enough, I stand by firmly in what I will ALWAYS say: had it been some white football player raping a woman this would of never happened OH WAIT it happens ALL the fucking time and I zero ZERO picketing, screaming, PETA or anyone calling out those injustices Vick on the other hand CONTINUES to be vilified, picketed, screamed at hell his very death in this thread was called for.

Somewhere somehow the value of animals now out trumps that of women and children.

[J. Mason]

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.

Some went to a rehab and some were put down, he hung one from a tree as well, I think its public record if there is research done.

[EnderD_503]

Yanno he could of served 20 years and I'm sure that STILL wouldn't of been enough[...]

Sorry for snipping the post, but just to tag on to that: And that's the thing. What do people think would be achieved with him serving a longer sentence, being banished from the NFL and being perpetually shunned?

Instead, he seems, for all intents and purposes, to be a good example of rehabilitation and is doing work in favour of animal rights now. Had he been dealt with in the harsh way that some encourage, none of the above would have occurred and instead he'd be sitting in a jail cell instead of contributing something to society...which he seems to be doing now with his current activism. The whole punishment system is not particularly productive or socially progressive.

On a side note on the subject of PETA and sexism, I never fail to chuckle when it comes to PETA expressing outrage about any rights issue...coming from the organization that frequently objectifies women in order to get more hits on their website (Seriously, how many times are they going to pull the PETA porn site thing to try to pull in more male supporters? Pathetic, imo), I'm not sure how they expect to be taken seriously. I think for these extremists (and they really are...I don't think any credible animal rights activist should be taking them seriously) animal rights trump everyone's rights (zomg, Obama swatted a fly!).

That said, I'm not sure it should be turned into an issue of women's/children's rights vs. animal rights because...it really shouldn't come down to that. It shouldn't have to do with one rights issue vs. other rights issues, but that the public begin valuing women's/children's rights more than they currently do. Animal rights, unfortunately, sometimes come off as the token "good deed" for the middle and upper classes, much like donating to bogus charities they believe are actually making a difference for famine or disaster-struck nations (which in many cases, the money doesn't even get there). But it's a "feel good" for them.

The public should simply become more aware of the grave and manifold injustices taking place in these cases: for example Vick's case not being simply about animal rights, but also about racism, marginalization and prisoner rehabilitation/rights. And the ability of the public to look at how similar outcries don't always occur as far as well-known rapists (unless some grizzly murder is involved, it would seem), and other discriminatory issues that occur there. I think a big part of it is people being too lazy to change their own knee-jerk reactions to things, and so they pass them off as "not really racist/sexist/etc./everybody does it" and how that helps perpetuate racism and sexism in the modern west.

[purepisces]

I cringe each time I see this thread pop up again. I’ve followed along at various times, but because it is such an emotional issue for me, I haven’t read the whole thing. But it does seem to have turned into a thread more about Michael Vick than about President Obama.

As someone who has worked with abused animals, including pit bulls, the horror of dog fighting for pleasure and money is incomprehensible to me. I know that no one here is validating Michael Vick’s violent abuse & profiting off the abuse of innocent animals (at least I hope not), but it is difficult for me to accept that he deserves “praise” for what he is doing now.

I can appreciate that he is working with the Humane Society. Maybe this has something to do with how I was raised; I was never rewarded for doing the “right thing” or what was expected of me. I was; however, punished when my behavior was found unacceptable. So, I can see that would be my “normal” and is bound to influence how I see the world.

I wasn’t raised by a family that valued the lives of animals. When I was young, my mother had my sister’s dog put to sleep to punish my sister. I’ve seen cruelty to both people and animals. In my experience, someone who abuses animals is way more likely to abuse their children and spouses, as well. To me, violence is violence, regardless of whether it is unleashed upon a woman, child, animal or man. I won’t argue whether violence to a human or animal is worse. For me, I don’t see any reason to compare them. Why would I? They are both wrong.

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

[SoNotHer]

I cringe each time I see this thread pop up again. I’ve followed along at various times, but because it is such an emotional issue for me, I haven’t read the whole thing. But it does seem to have turned into a thread more about Michael Vick than about President Obama...

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

Well said, Purepiesces. I have a bully girl who was used as a "baiter" dog in dog fighting. We found her dumped on a road side, holes in her body and severely underweight. She managed a tiny tail wag when we approached and then she tipped over. She didn't get back up again until five days later and two different vet clinics worked on her. I'm more than happy to share pictures of her before and after.

So I've seen up close the effects of dog fighting, and I have read the very disturbing details of the treatment of dogs in the Michael Vick case.

Lets let the true healing and awareness grow,and lets let cruelty not be consigned to a species or a type of person or to any convenient target. But lets make cruelty the target and work toward a more consistently kind and respectful way to treat all.


"You can judge a society by the way it treats its animals" - Gandhi

[The_Lady_Snow]

Michael Vick and End Dogfighting

Vick's participation in The HSUS' anti-dogfighting program
The Humane Society of the United States



The following are frequently asked questions about The HSUS' decision to allow Michael Vick to participate in our anti-dogfighting campaign.
Is Vick a spokesperson for The HSUS?

No. He is not a spokesperson for The HSUS or our anti-dogfighting campaign. We have experts on animal fighting who represent The HSUS in an official capacity. Vick has no particular designation or title.
Do you think Vick got a slap on the wrist for his crimes?

If someone commits a crime against animals, here's how events ideally unfold:


The person committing the animal crime is caught and successfully prosecuted and pleads guilty to a federal felony.
As the case plays out in the public domain, there is a wave of widespread social disapproval expressed about the conduct and a new awareness of the gravity of the problem.
The HSUS drives a raft of political reforms to passage, and there is a new attitude and resolve in dealing with this crime across the nation.
Finally, after the perpetrator is released from prison, he comes knocking and wants to do the equivalent of community service and help the leading anti-dogfighting group attack the problem.
And that's how the Vick story progressed.
Is any money changing hands?

No. The HSUS has not received any contributions from Vick, the NFL, the Philadelphia Eagles, or anyone else in exchange for his participation in our community-based anti-dogfighting program. Nor is The HSUS paying Vick or anyone else for his participation. Vick pays his own expenses when he speaks at anti-dogfighting forums.
Update: In October 2009, the Philadelphia Eagles launched "Treating Animals With Kindness" (TAWK), which provides grants to animal welfare organizations to protect animals. The HSUS was selected as one of the grant recipients and received $50,000 grant, which we used to launch our End Dogfighting in Philadelphia (http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/archive/end_dogfighting_philadelphia.html) campaign.
What has The HSUS done to leverage the Michael Vick case?

Since the Vick case put the spotlight on dogfighting, we have worked with lawmakers, law enforcement officers, community organizers, and others to end dogfighting.
Since 2007, we've upgraded more than 40 laws (state and federal) on animal fighting. The HSUS has trained thousands of law enforcement officers on investigating animal fighting and paid out at least 90 rewards for tips leading to arrests in animal fighting cases. We have worked with law enforcement on more than 400 raids on animal fighting operations.
We also launched programs in Atlanta, Chicago, and Philadelphia to reach at-risk youth. Hundreds of people have participated in our pit bull training classes (http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/2009/02/pit_bull_training_team_0902.html), which teach dog owners that their pit bulls can be friends, not fighters. We hope to expand these community-based outreach programs to other major urban areas.
There is no other animal welfare organization with an entire unit focused only on combating animal fighting.
While these efforts have put a dent in the problem of dogfighting, there is disturbing growth of the activity in urban areas. We need new ways to address the problem, and we seized on the opportunity to put Michael Vick to work because his celebrity and his unique story have the potential to turn thousands of young people into anti-dogfighting advocates.
Is Vick handing over a list of the dogfighters he was involved with?

This issue certainly came up with federal prosecutors during his trial. We doubt that prosecutors would disclose any intelligence they gathered from Vick, for obvious reasons. The HSUS never discloses our intelligence-gathering efforts in bringing these violent criminals to justice, although we constantly feed intelligence to law enforcement officials toward the goal of busting animal fighters.
Since Vick is back in the NFL, doesn't your work with him signal that dogfighting is okay and that the penalty is weak?

Given the penalties available at the time he was sentenced, U.S. District Court Judge Henry Hudson meted out a strong penalty to Vick. He paid a steep price for his crimes, in addition to serving his prison sentence. The HSUS has worked to upgrade the federal animal fighting law twice in the last two years. The penalties are much more severe now than in April 2007, when Vick's home was raided. The HSUS has been pushing for felony-level penalties for animal fighting crimes for years because that's the only way to drive criminals out of this business.
Why didn't you choose a different celebrity to connect with urban communities?

Vick was a role model for many young people, and he lost everything because of what he did to dogs. His story is the strongest possible example of why dogfighting is a dead end. Just as former drug addicts are able to reach people struggling with addiction, former dogfighters are some of the most effective voices against this crime. We realized the potential that Vick has to reach at-risk youth and pull them out of the quicksand of animal fighting. That said, we constantly attempt to recruit celebrities and others to join us in our crusade to end dogfighting and other forms of animal cruelty. We want to use all pathways to stopping the problem.
Did Vick approach you or did you ask him to help you?

When Vick was close to finishing his prison sentence, his representatives approached HSUS President and CEO Wayne Pacelle. He dismissed their first offers, but agreed to meet with Vick after considering the potential that Vick had to reach the estimated 100,000 participants in urban street dogfighting. If there was a chance that Vick could save one dog from suffering the same abuse he inflicted, the proposal was worth our consideration.
After meeting with Vick and hearing him express his remorse, Pacelle consulted with The HSUS' board of directors and staff. Despite our utter disgust with what Vick did and our leading role in making sure he was convicted and punished for his crimes, we decided that shunning Vick forever would do no good for any animal. Vick paid $1 million for the care and rehabilitation of the dogs at Bad Newz Kennels. Now, we want him to contribute his time to attack the problem by reaching inner-city youth.
Has Vick acknowledged that what he did to dogs was wrong?

Yes. Over the course of several face-to-face meetings and during appearances at our End Dogfighting (http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/end_dogfighting.html) programs, Vick has apologized and acknowledged the suffering he caused. He has expressed his remorse and his desire to help more animals than he harmed by being an advocate for the humane treatment of animals. We only agreed to give him an opportunity to speak with kids if he was committed to the goal of ending dogfighting and recognized that his past actions were cruel and unacceptable.
Are you supporting Vick's return to the NFL?

We did not take a position on Vick's reinstatement to the NFL, and we did not lobby the NFL or any team to hire him. We planned to put him to work whether he returned to the NFL or not.
Is The HSUS going to boycott the NFL or the Philadelphia Eagles?

No. We have decided to try to engage the NFL and the Eagles in an effort to attack the problem of dogfighting. To this end, the Philadelphia Eagles have financed our End Dogfighting in Philadelphia (http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/archive/end_dogfighting_philadelphia.html) program, enabling it to launch in late 2010.
We'd like to get more athletes involved, and to urge the teams to invest in this important anti-cruelty work.
Read more about how The HSUS' End Dogfighting program turns lives around (http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/dogfighting/end_dogfighting.html) for youth and dogs.



At this point this is what he is doing to make a change and atone for what he did, but frankly from what I have read in this thread that is now going to ever be enough for some folks, and Ender I'm ok with saying that this Country gets on a kick of "what is the cause of the week" and animals have at times to *ME* have out trumped children and women.

[purepisces]

Michael Vick and End Dogfighting

Vick's participation in The HSUS' anti-dogfighting program
The Humane Society of the United States



What has The HSUS done to leverage the Michael Vick case?

Since the Vick case put the spotlight on dogfighting, we have worked with lawmakers, law enforcement officers, community organizers, and others to end dogfighting.
Since 2007, we've upgraded more than 40 laws (state and federal) on animal fighting. The HSUS has trained thousands of law enforcement officers on investigating animal fighting and paid out at least 90 rewards for tips leading to arrests in animal fighting cases. We have worked with law enforcement on more than 400 raids on animal fighting operations.
We also launched programs in Atlanta, Chicago, and Philadelphia to reach at-risk youth. Hundreds of people have participated in our pit bull training classes (http://www.humanesociety.org/news/news/2009/02/pit_bull_training_team_0902.html), which teach dog owners that their pit bulls can be friends, not fighters. We hope to expand these community-based outreach programs to other major urban areas.
There is no other animal welfare organization with an entire unit focused only on combating animal fighting.
While these efforts have put a dent in the problem of dogfighting, there is disturbing growth of the activity in urban areas. We need new ways to address the problem, and we seized on the opportunity to put Michael Vick to work because his celebrity and his unique story have the potential to turn thousands of young people into anti-dogfighting advocates.

Since Vick is back in the NFL, doesn't your work with him signal that dogfighting is okay and that the penalty is weak?

Given the penalties available at the time he was sentenced, U.S. District Court Judge Henry Hudson meted out a strong penalty to Vick. He paid a steep price for his crimes, in addition to serving his prison sentence. The HSUS has worked to upgrade the federal animal fighting law twice in the last two years. The penalties are much more severe now than in April 2007, when Vick's home was raided. The HSUS has been pushing for felony-level penalties for animal fighting crimes for years because that's the only way to drive criminals out of this business.

Why didn't you choose a different celebrity to connect with urban communities?

Vick was a role model for many young people, and he lost everything because of what he did to dogs. His story is the strongest possible example of why dogfighting is a dead end. Just as former drug addicts are able to reach people struggling with addiction, former dogfighters are some of the most effective voices against this crime. We realized the potential that Vick has to reach at-risk youth and pull them out of the quicksand of animal fighting. That said, we constantly attempt to recruit celebrities and others to join us in our crusade to end dogfighting and other forms of animal cruelty. We want to use all pathways to stopping the problem.
[/LIST]


At this point this is what he is doing to make a change and atone for what he did, but frankly from what I have read in this thread that is now going to ever be enough for some folks, and Ender I'm ok with saying that this Country gets on a kick of "what is the cause of the week" and animals have at times to *ME* have out trumped children and women.


Thank you for posting this list. I snipped a couple things that really stand out to me as a positive outcome from a negative situation.

I hear you saying that animal abuse issues get more attention from the media than abuse of women and children, but from my perspectives this is one of the very few animal cruelty issues that has gotten any national attention, and for that I'm grateful. I would love to see the abuse of women, children and animals get more attention from the media. For me, it's not an either/or situation.

I hope he is able to reach the hearts of those who look up to him.

[SoNotHer]

Thank you, PurePiesces. Thank you very much.

[EnderD_503]

I hope that Michael Vick proves to be a loyal ally in the fight against animal abuse. Time will tell. I will stand with anyone who will fight to protect the innocent and the abused. I believe in rehabilitation and redemption. But, I also believe that we all live with the consequences of our choices and actions. I can’t forget the suffering he caused, his past doesn’t disappear. Neither does mine. All any of us can do is move forward and do the next right thing. Today is a new day.

What constitutes as "living with the consequences"? What positive outcome for society and animal rights do you believe "living with the consequences" will achieve? I ask because to me, this perspective demands that a person be punished, despite that the individual in question has demonstrated a changed mentality toward animal rights and is now heavily involved in animal rights. What do further "consequences" serve here beyond simple revenge?

Also, I don't really think he's being praised by anyone. Evidently, since he is a high profile person, he's going garner more attention than an average person who goes through the same process. I don't see that as praise. The same thing happens with other celebrities, like Pamela Anderson and so on. It's the media doing what the media does, and I don't believe even Vick himself has much control over that.

[purepisces]

What constitutes as "living with the consequences"? What positive outcome for society and animal rights do you believe "living with the consequences" will achieve? I ask because to me, this perspective demands that a person be punished, despite that the individual in question has demonstrated a changed mentality toward animal rights and is now heavily involved in animal rights. What do further "consequences" serve here beyond simple revenge?

Also, I don't really think he's being praised by anyone. Evidently, since he is a high profile person, he's going garner more attention than an average person who goes through the same process. I don't see that as praise. The same thing happens with other celebrities, like Pamela Anderson and so on. It's the media doing what the media does, and I don't believe even Vick himself has much control over that.

I'm very happy he has his own show. He has been working hard (in partnership with the Humane Society and others) across the country to end dog fighting. This show sounds like it will be another way for him to get the message of redemption and forgiveness out to others.
People can and do change. Vick deserves praise for what he is now doing.

Ender- I never said that I believe that there is a “positive outcome” for Vick to live with the consequences of his actions. It is just a fact of life. Our choices, our actions, are not in a vacuum. The effect of all we do ripples out in ways we never imagine as we go about our daily lives. By “consequences” I wasn’t referring to any type of “punishment” but simply the fact that the choices he made will continue to impact him.

There are people who won’t support any team that he plays for, who won’t buy products from companies that endorse him and they have every right to express their opinion that way. Just like there are people who will praise him for the changes that they see in him and the work he is doing now and they have every right to express their opinion. There are people who don’t give a crap about him one way or another. It seems to me that “living with the consequences” for Vick will include the fact that dog fighting will be associated with his name for the rest of his life. He will have to find a way to make his peace with that, and it doesn’t have anything to do with revenge, it’s just life.

My comment about praise was in response to several posts in this thread that referred to Vick’s work with the Humane Society, etc. I’ve quoted a post from Toughy that specifically states Vick should be praised. I don’t share that feeling, but, as I said, I appreciate what he is doing, the changes he has made and hope that he will turn out to be a lifelong advocate against animal abuse.

And, I do agree with you about the media.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Paris Hilton: She has a history of acquiring animal accessories, then forgetting them—one kitten was hit by a car and employees say she abandons animals in closets to die.




Gerard Butler: Aside from maybe-dating Jennifer Aniston, he's also accused of punching a dog in the face after it touched noses with his pug. He claims the dog attacked first.



Jesse James: Other personal foibles aside, the biker is accused of fighting his pit bulls to near-death.



http://cdn02.cdnwp.thefrisky.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/21/animals-Kid-Kardashian.jpg




Mike Tyson- PETA asked prosecutors to investigate Mike Tyson (http://www.thefrisky.com/tag/mike+tyson/)'s Animal Planet reality TV show about pigeon racing, saying the races likely involve illegal gambling and cruelty to animals. Mike Tyson has apparently been raising pigeons since he was little, but this will be his first venture into racing them. The important thing to take away here is that Mike Tyson raises pigeons.



Jon Gosselin- made the honest mistake of talking about how his kids treat the family dogs, saying, “Those kids beat them up, climb on them, pull their tails, bite at them, drag them around and everything you can imagine not to do to an animal.” Animal activists got all up in his business and Gosselin issued another statement saying, “We understand the responsibilities of being good dog owners. Whenever my kids are with Shoka and Nala, everyone is carefully supervised to ensure that no one—dog or child—is injured.” That's just how kids are with animals. I used to get knocked on my butt by our German Shepherd and I would turn around and spank him. Just as Jesus would have done, had he been a toddler with a large dog, when the couple broke up the dogs were taken back to the kennel cause Kate couldn't handle them.




Kim Kardashian thinks she's a momma cat and can pose with

a cat by the scruff for spank bank material

[SoNotHer]

And this all sucks as does the other parts of Vick's history. Frankly, who wants genital herpes (Yipee!) given to them and who wants their bank stiffed for a loan default or the rental of 130 cars, never mind the other incredibly bad financial decisions.

If were going to pretend that athletes aren't role models, we don't have common ground to start a discussion. And if were going to pretend that most people, including my students who have had Vick's background and then some, are afforded the second most lucrative contract in sports and get the opportunities that Vick has been afforded, then I really have no common point to begin here.

We are all responsible for actions, and if we can't be trusted in a position of power over an elderly person, or a child, or a partner, or a dog, then we really don't deserve that power.



[QUOTE=The_Lady_Snow;427684]
Paris Hilton: She has a history of acquiring animal accessories, then forgetting them—one kitten was hit by a car and employees say she abandons animals in closets to die.




Gerard Butler: Aside from maybe-dating Jennifer Aniston, he's also accused of punching a dog in the face after it touched noses with his pug. He claims the dog attacked first.

[SoNotHer]

Huh? Then I wonder why a Google search for the phrase "Praise for Michael Vick" just cached 9.56 M results. Hmmmm....

And if $100 million for your professional existence isn't considered praise, I'll take it.


Also, I don't really think he's being praised by anyone.

[Toughy]

The right thing to do is to not dog fight. Vick is doing the right thing by not participating in dog fighting.

He deserves praise because is has gone beyond the right thing and is trying to stop urban dog fighting. He does not have to do that. He could have served his time and not done anything else.

He is a role model for kids and his story is an example that can give kids (and adults) hope for rehabilitation and leading a productive life.

[suebee]

Yeah that's how I feel about the Anthony woman who killed her kid yet got no time, she's free yet everyone forgot about her.

[He's done his time, he too should get a second chance.

QUOTE=suebee;425403]I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue[/QUOTE]

What's your point? I can tell you exactly what happened to those dogs......almost anyone can.


My point was really simple Toughy. It was in answer to Snowy's comment that "he's done his time". He agreed to plead guilty to bankrolling a dog fighting operation to AVOID being tried for the animal abuse charge. You and I may know what happen to those dogs. But I doubt that everybody does. That was the point of avoiding a trial. The violence and cruelty that was shown by Vick and others is horrendous. It was strategic on his part to plead guilty to a crime that would seem less offensive.

Here's what I agree with: Others are guilty of equally horrendous cries or worse and get away with it. They may not be stigmatized as much as Vick, may even go free - and yes, race has always got to be considered a mitigating factor.

Here's what I'm feeling in this thread: As laudible as his anti-dog fighting efforts may be, he inflicted horrendous suffering on those animals. Neither his community service nor the racial aspect of unequal justice for people of colour changes that. I'm involved in animal rescue on a regular basis, and when I hear Vick's name there are some pretty fucking awful images that come into my mind. That probably isn't the case for everyone, but is is for me and most of the people I spend time with. I just feel that the victims of this case are being pretty much forgotten. I don't want to hear that they're "just dogs", or that they're not equal to humans. I don't think that mattered a damn to them when they were suffering.

I'm not really interested in starting a big conversation on the topic. I seem to be one of the few that has participated on this thread that is of this mindset. I'm just responding to Toughy's question.

Sue

[The_Lady_Snow]

So how long should he be reminded over and over and over and over of what he did? Cause what he's trying to do now and being honest about it isn't good enough, what would be a good way to solve this for you sue? What would be a proper punishment that would make you feel the victims were *vindicated*?


I am fully aware of what the charges were and that he got lesser charges, I am going to assume he was offered that if he cooperated with authorities that's how it tends to work in our system, so should he spend more time in jail because some people feel he should? Should he not entered a plea bargain if it was given to him?

How much more do you want him to pay? You seem to avoid that question..

[purepisces]

If were going to pretend that athletes aren't role models, we don't have common ground to start a discussion. And if were going to pretend that most people, including my students who have had Vick's background and then some, are afforded the second most lucrative contract in sports and get the opportunities that Vick has been afforded, then I really have no common point to begin here.

]

SoNotHer - great point. Most people (who are not celebrities/sports stars) do not have the kind of opportunity to start over, get a job, home, financial security etc., that Vick has had after leaving prison. Martha Stewart is the only person I can think of of the top of my head. But, of course, her crimes did not involve the torture, abuse & murder of dogs.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

[purepisces]

QUOTE=suebee

I just feel that the victims of this case are being pretty much forgotten. I don't want to hear that they're "just dogs", or that they're not equal to humans. I don't think that mattered a damn to them when they were suffering.

Sue[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]

Suebee-I had to clip this little bit of your post, because I want you to know that you are not alone in this! I feel the exact same way. As I've said before, violence is violence; torture is torture regardless of who is on the receiving end. I can see no reason why there is a need to "rank" suffering. I do see a need to speak out for the innocent and the voiceless.

I have great respect for you and the work that you do with animals.

[purepisces]

I don't know if anyone remembers the Columbus, Ohio firefighter who killed his dogs to avoid boarding them was sentenced to 90 days in jail.

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.

[dykeumentary]

What are your thoughts on South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission?

[DapperButch]

I never even heard about this!

But, living in Texas, my entire state seems to have little interest in the welfare of animals. It's rarely something I see on the local news. I would like to think that there would be such a local outrage against this firefighter that he would lose his job. I certainly wouldn't trust someone capable of that type of action with my life or the life of my family.

Here:

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-08/justice/firefighter.kills.dogs_1_firefighter-dogs-faces?_s=PM:CRIME

Santuomo was sentenced to 90 days in jail, to be served in 10-day increments over the next two years. He also has to pay $4,500 in restitution, perform 200 hours of community service, stay away from companion animals for five years and write a letter of apology to be published in the local newspaper and the International Association of Firefighters magazine, the humane society's Miller said.


And he was fired, actually:
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2009/07/17/FireOrNot.ART_ART_07-17-09_A1_MNEGG30.html



ETA: The judge had said he could do the 90 days in increments of 10 days only if he was employed, so after getting fired, that was removed.

[suebee]

Tell you what I will answer your question when you answer ours..

What would be an a good enough punishment for Vick?

You seem to have skipped over that particular question as well, as for ignoring this I am not advocating his heinous crimes, but I sure damn well am not gonna sit here quietly and watch the grossness that has happened in this thread and if you say that grossness has not happened I will point each and everyone out.

I've never spoken to the criminal punishment for several reasons: I don't believe it works, and for crimes such as animal abuse I don't think it comes close to changing something. There has to be a change in attitude - in core belief systems, before somebody gets it. I'm not judge or jury. I'd hate to be involved in the process because it's a system that is so far out of date, and continues because we as a society feel that we have to see something DONE. It's almost a moot point in my opinion, except some people actually NEED to be locked up for the protection of others.

Of course Vick was in prison for bankrolling dog fights, NOT animal abuse. But the fact that he never admitted to animal abuse during the trial process - and I read that the judge was actually harder on him because of his lack of apparent remorse - is easy to understand in that he grew up in that culture, and hadn't yet come to terms with the absolute horror of his actions.

I read the blog, and that's EXACTLY what *I* needed to hear from him. I asked several times if anybody had seen him apologize - thanks for finally posting it.


So how long should he be reminded over and over and over and over of what he did? Cause what he's trying to do now and being honest about it isn't good enough, what would be a good way to solve this for you sue? What would be a proper punishment that would make you feel the victims were *vindicated*?


I am fully aware of what the charges were and that he got lesser charges, I am going to assume he was offered that if he cooperated with authorities that's how it tends to work in our system, so should he spend more time in jail because some people feel he should? Should he not entered a plea bargain if it was given to him?

How much more do you want him to pay? You seem to avoid that question..

QUOTE=suebee;425403]I just wanted to repeat what has already been said earlier in the thread, just for precisions sake: Vick did time for bankrolling a dogfighting operation. He entered into a plea bargain to avoid having to plea on animal cruelty charges. In so doing, the evidence in regards to what actually happened to those animals was never entered into the public record.

Sue




My point was really simple Toughy. It was in answer to Snowy's comment that "he's done his time". He agreed to plead guilty to bankrolling a dog fighting operation to AVOID being tried for the animal abuse charge. You and I may know what happen to those dogs. But I doubt that everybody does. That was the point of avoiding a trial. The violence and cruelty that was shown by Vick and others is horrendous. It was strategic on his part to plead guilty to a crime that would seem less offensive.

Here's what I agree with: Others are guilty of equally horrendous cries or worse and get away with it. They may not be stigmatized as much as Vick, may even go free - and yes, race has always got to be considered a mitigating factor.

Here's what I'm feeling in this thread: As laudible as his anti-dog fighting efforts may be, he inflicted horrendous suffering on those animals. Neither his community service nor the racial aspect of unequal justice for people of colour changes that. I'm involved in animal rescue on a regular basis, and when I hear Vick's name there are some pretty fucking awful images that come into my mind. That probably isn't the case for everyone, but is is for me and most of the people I spend time with. I just feel that the victims of this case are being pretty much forgotten. I don't want to hear that they're "just dogs", or that they're not equal to humans. I don't think that mattered a damn to them when they were suffering.

I'm not really interested in starting a big conversation on the topic. I seem to be one of the few that has participated on this thread that is of this mindset. I'm just responding to Toughy's question.

Sue[/QUOTE]

I haven't avoided anything Snowy. As a matter of fact we had this EXACT conversation months ago, when the thread first came up. Your question at the top of this post. My answer in red. Again you ask the question (in blue) MY point is in pink. Snowy. I answered you once on the question of sentencing. I'll answer again in a different way. YOU are concerned with the sentencing and all of the issues around that. MY point - and if you want you can read through all of my old posts to verify - has ALWAYS been about the dogs. I could give a shit about the sentencing. It's not my country. It's not my judicial system. The dogs however..... there is an international animal rights movement of which I consider myself a part of. That's what I am talking about. The animals. If you want to ask me a question about that - an honest question - I'll try to answer. If you want to talk about sentencing, there are plenty of folks here who are interested in talking about that aspect.

No disrespect - no pissiness on my part. Just an honest answer to your question.

Respectfully,
Sue

[The_Lady_Snow]

He's admitted what he's done to them animals in detail, he's not hiding it, he's continuing to educate that's what I see him doing for those dogs and dogs now. I can't imagine it's easy having to look deep and see what a douche bag you were, my hope is he continues being honest, paying it forward, talking to kids and one day he's forgiven for fucking up really bad he's a young guy he can make a difference. You can only beat a man/woman down so much before they begin to wonder WTF..

Oh and yes the firefighter in Ohio wanted to go on vacation so he killed his dogs and bragged about it to his buddies...

[SoNotHer]

I can't imagine it's easy having to look deep and see what a douche bag you were, my hope is he continues being honest, paying it forward, talking to kids and one day he's forgiven for fucking up really bad he's a young guy he can make a difference..

Agreed. With great power and opportunity comes great responsibility. He's in a position to make a change and symbolize that change.

And of the firefighter who wanted to go on vacation, or the man who I saw in a recent news video left his two five-month old puppies caged in a house to die rather than adopt them out (and he knew folks would have taken them) all I can say is that I hope they never have another pet and that there's some justice somewhere along the day.

[kannon]

Everyone who is pointing their finger at Michael Vick and claiming that his crimes are unforgiveable, I would like to know if you guys wear makeup, take medications or use (have) any other animal products? If you do, which I would assume most of you do or have in the past, then are you not a complicit participant in acts of animal cruelty yourself? You may say that animal research benefits humans and excuse the inhumane way we treat animals or creatures we deem as expendable or less than us. Yeah, it’s not as bad as using animals for sport and entertainment. Who said it’s okay to torture animals to get that right type of mascara? Looking at Vick’s case, football is similar to dog fighting in many ways. We have many human sports that are dangerous. Football and boxing are a physically dangerous sports. So, for someone like Vick, dog fighting may not have seemed so cruel. My point it, sometimes it’s about perspective and individual experience.
I’m not excusing his behavior, but he has paid heavily for his crime and appears rehabilitated. So, why not give him a second chance? Why be so self-righteous?

[purepisces]

Everyone who is pointing their finger at Michael Vick and claiming that his crimes are unforgiveable, I would like to know if you guys wear makeup, take medications or use (have) any other animal products? If you do, which I would assume most of you do or have in the past, then are you not a complicit participant in acts of animal cruelty yourself? You may say that animal research benefits humans and excuse the inhumane way we treat animals or creatures we deem as expendable or less than us. Yeah, it’s not as bad as using animals for sport and entertainment. Who said it’s okay to torture animals to get that right type of mascara? Looking at Vick’s case, football is similar to dog fighting in many ways. We have many human sports that are dangerous. Football and boxing are a physically dangerous sports. So, for someone like Vick, dog fighting may not have seemed so cruel. My point it, sometimes it’s about perspective and individual experience.
I’m not excusing his behavior, but he has paid heavily for his crime and appears rehabilitated. So, why not give him a second chance? Why be so self-righteous?


I’m not sure who this post is directed to, but I’m happy to respond.

Just to clarify first, are you saying discussing Michael Vick in this thread is pointing fingers at him or is it something specific that I, or someone else is saying? I’ve only recently posted in this thread because, quite honestly, I find the whole subject so upsetting that it is difficult for me to discuss it.

Don’t get me started on animal testing! I don’t want to derail this thread, so I’ll send you a PM. But to answer your questions: I rarely wear makeup but when I do it is cruelty free, I don’t wear leather or fur, and I’ve been a vegetarian for years. But, I’m not vegan. I eat eggs, dairy & cheese, I feel overwhelming guilt about it, because yes, it makes me complicit in the very cruelty that abhor. I also take medications that probably were tested on animals at some point. I wish I could say I was innocent, but there is blood on my hands, too.

I have never given an opinion as to whether I believe what Vick has done is forgivable or not. I did discuss the fact that I can’t forget what he did. I don’t think anyone can expect their actions to be forgotten just because we might be sorry that we did something. I would guess that for the rest of his life his name is going to be associated with dog fighting.

But in this case, the fact that his actions gained such notoriety is what will, hopefully, help him successful work to end dog fighting. He is someone who has been on both sides of the issues. That’s not something I can say. I honestly cannot imagine how a person could not just condone, but enjoy and promote something I consider so cruel. So, I most likely would not be able to connect with someone actively engaged in that type of activity. Hopefully, Vick, can and will be able to use his influence to that end.

As to getting a second chance, it seems to me that he is getting just about the best second chance ever. A lot of people said that the public outcry would keep him from playing football again. That has not happened. He has an amazing contract, he’s getting sponsor’s back, and he got a reality show. I bet most people would love to have his life after getting out of prison.

Since he is quite young, I hope that the years he spends working on behalf of animals will far outweigh the years he was involved in dog fighting. I don’t think redemption is something that happens overnight. I also don’t think it’s something to be judged by me, or the media, etc. I see redemption as a deeply personal journey, not something that can be bestowed by the public.

You make an interesting point about the possible effect of violent sports on those who play them. The problem with the comparison, in my opinion, is that people have the choice to play a sport, and football players and boxer aren’t killed if they lose a game/fight. Those are luxuries that the dogs in question never had.

[Ebon]

Honestly who gives a fuck what people think of him. As long as HE learns his lesson, which he is in the process of doing. He didn't know he was doing wrong but now he does and now he has to live with it. Obviously this is a part of his life's journey, he is learning how to value the life of an animal. Not everyone was born with that information some of us had to learn it. Perhaps some people need to learn compassion and forgiveness. In my own opinion the only people that can judge other people about animal cruelty are the ones that live a vegan lifestyle, everyone else is just a hypocrite. Let the man learn his lesson.

As far as race goes this whole fucking thread was started on some racist bullshit. I'm not going to vote for Obama again because he's showing compassion? Give me a break.

[Toughy]

suebee..........Please don't imply I think they are 'just dogs'. I work with dogs and have for years now. I'm so glad you do too, just remember that finger you are pointing at me and others leaves 3 pointing back at you.

I'm also am so glad you think his race is a 'mitigating' factor......it's the BIGGEST factor in all of this. Rich white men (and women) are in the dog fighting business and you don't see ANY of them on trial or see any hateful, spiteful, mean-spirited attitudes toward them.

Anybody who knows anything more than 'dog fighting is bad' can find out who is doing what. Trust me, law enforcement knows who is involved .....they just don't care unless they can take down a gifted black athlete and whip up a frenzy over it.

[suebee]

Oh Toughy, that wasn't necessarily directed at you. It's just a comment I've heard all too often. My bad if I wasn't clear.

[SoNotHer]

As I wrote, with great power comes great responsibility. Let's hope we all use it wisely.

And yes, I do use cruelty-free products and have for many years. And I voted Obama and will again. And I supported the release of Troy Davis, and I support the NAACP. And I support the end of any vestige of Jim Crow in America, including the clear and obvious use of privatized educational and prison systems to continue to oppress people of color.

In fact, I'm actually offended by racism, sexism, classism and the myriad of ways people have found to get over on one another and other species.

I'm looking forward to a time of much greater compassion and empathy by all and for all.

[Ebon]

As I wrote, with great power comes great responsibility. Let's hope we all use it wisely.

And yes, I do use cruelty-free products and have for many years. And I voted Obama and will again. And I supported the release of Troy Davis, and I support the NAACP. And I support the end of any vestige of Jim Crow in America, including the clear and obvious use of privatized educational and prison systems to continue to oppress people of color.

In fact, I'm actually offended by racism, sexism, classism and the myriad of ways people have found to get over on one another and other species.

I'm looking forward to a time of much greater compassion and empathy by all and for all.

Mac or PC? lol just kidding

[SoNotHer]

LOL Happily. I carry no illusion my soul has any greater or lesser weight than any other soul.

[Ebon]

LOL Happily. I carry no illusion my soul has any greater or lesser weight than any other soul.

Then you are lucky. Some people can't even see past the vessel that houses the soul.

[SoNotHer]

Thank you, Ebon. The world would open up and dance for them if they could see to the soul.

I certainly have other issues, and my exs would be happy to put on a pot of coffee and tell you so. ;-) This just isn't one of them.