Identity, Authenticity - Do they conflict?

[Nat]

"I hit the wall of realizing my entire identity was based on having these kinds of discussions and I couldn't imagine myself outside of those discussions. So I started to recognize I was using those discussions as an identity, as a way to avoid having to become an authentic person. I thought, "well that's not good."

Eventually, as a part of a spiritual path, one of my teachers said to me, "The mind is vast. It is like the vast sky, and every idea that we have is like one single star in the sky of our minds." And every idea we have about race and gender - those are just one star in the vast sky of our mind. And when you start to look at ideas that way, you start to see ideas as tiny stars in the vast space of your mind, even if they feel like they are right here, like they are everything. But they're not. It's an illusion."

- Rebecca Walker

DePaul University Cultural Center's Panel Discussion (iTunes U), "What Multiracial Women Bring to the Table"

I want to talk about identity. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while now. I suppose for some time now, I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.

I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out.

So I have some questions floating around and I'd love to hear other people's takes on these:

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?

What does identity offer you?

What does it take from you?

Do you see your identity as flexible?

Have you felt pressure to identify?

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience.

For an identity-positive quote, I'll cite the Dead Poets chop-up of Walt Whitman:

O Me! O Life!
O the endless trains of the faithless!
O cities filled with the foolish!
What good amid these?
O Me! O Life!

The answer:
That life exists
and identity.
The powerful play goes on
and you may contribute a verse.

[Nightshade]

Wow. Interesting topic. I'm excited to read everyone's take on it.

For me, I am not my identity. How I id myself is my simplified, shortcut way of expressing a part of who I am to the listener. And to myself for that matter. I always have been authentically me and have spent a great deal of my life frustrated because I lacked words for who/what I am. How I feel. What's inside.

Being human, I am multifaceted and haven't got it all figured out yet (probably never will) so I know that parts of how I identify are subject to change. That isn't to say that everything is temporary, I just feel it's important to question beliefs with an open mind. As time goes on I learn more and more about myself and how I relate to the world around me and my identity gets refined. Or something that I've thought to be safe statement about me gets put through the fire and doesn't survive, so I know it wasn't truly a part of me.

I say MOST of it is subject to change because some things have remained true long enough for me to state as unequivocal fact. I'm turning 48 soon and I have always been happily, unwaveringly female. When I was a little girl, I used to hang out with tomboys (budding femme that I was) and wonder why anyone would want to act like or be a boy. ;) It's not that I haven't questioned my gender, it's that I have and the answer has always been the same.

Tl;dr: I am not my identity, my identity is a simplified, partial explanation of me.

[Kobi]

To me, words and labels, because they are subject to individual interpretation, are barriers to authenticity.
What a word means to me and what a word means to someone else may not be the same thing.

As such, they might be useful in some arenas but they rarely define the authentic me.
Plus, they limit exploration, flexibility, and freedom of expression.

Example. I like to flirt. My flirting is not always based on labels.
It may well be based on some people are just fun to play with.
Therefore, I will not only flirt with femmes, but some butches and
males and heteros as well. Doesnt mean I want to sleep with them
but light hearted banter can be very amusing, liberating, and just
plain feels good sometimes.

When I first came out, a few decades back, using labels was important in helping
to form and solidify my sense of self. Now, I find it too confining.

For me, the most authentic thing I can say about me is...
I am who and what I am. How that may manifest itself from
moment to moment and day to day is up for grabs. There is
no final, absolute product. It is a continually evolving process
which defies words.

[Corkey]

I am authentically me, always. Labels are for clothes and cars, but they do help convey to others how we as individuals see ourselves, and labels help others relate, (or not) to us.

Who I am, the being that inhabits this skin is a spiritual one that relates to people based on how they relate to me. I take people at face value, for instance, if you tell me you are femme that is how I will relate to you, FTM fine no problem, butch, again not an issue. Where I find trouble is when another human wants to put me into their neat little box against my wishes. Nope not going to happen and I will fight tooth and nail against their perceived notion of who I am.

Good topic Nat.

[Mister Bent]

Excellent thread topic, thank you for starting this discussion, Nat.

I need to think on this a bit further, but I did have an immediate thought in response to the following:

"Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?"

It seems for me that the shedding of the desire to name/label myself has run a parallel course with an increased feeling of personal authenticity. In the last 5 years, identity labels have begun to feel increasingly restrictive to me, and more a source of division than cohesion.

[JustLovelyJenn]

This subject interests me a lot. It is also one I have done a great deal of research on, and a great deal of thinking.

I am lucky enough to be part of a group that presents a LGTB sensitivity Safe Space training at a local community college. Years ago when I was a student there I was privileged to help develop this training for the campus and have continued to be asked to present with the group 3 times a year. One of the topics we touch on is LGTB Identity Development, looking at research done by Alfred Kinsey, Fritz Klein, and Vivianne Cass. As well as looking at a non LGTB Identity development model by Hardiman and Jackson.

With all of that said... Its given me a very different view of Identity and Labels then I had when I first started coming out.

Identity labels are a social construct, not limited to any one person or groups of people. Each person in any given society is subject to the need to identify themselves with those around them, or in some cases, make the decision that they do NOT identify with the "norm" and decide what it is they do identify with.

These societal views of identity can serve to both unite and divide a community. Just like the fact that I identify as a queer lesbian alienates me from my religious family, it also gives me common ground within the Butch Femme community.

The biggest thing that came to my mind with this thread, as I read through the original post, and the responses to follow is the idea of Multiple dimensions of Identity. The idea that around ones core self orbits all of the Identity labels that we choose to use. In this case, for myself, I may include Mother, Musician, Daughter, Teacher, Lesbian, Queer, Person with Anxiety, Sister, Caucasian... among others. Each of these pieces of my identity move continually around my Core (authentic) self, contributing to it, but not changing it. Depending on the situation that I am in I may choose to keep some of these Identities at the back, guarded and unseen. As a Teacher I may feel comfortable showing that I am also a mother, but find it unnecessary and maybe even scary to reveal that I am Queer. For me this does not lessen the importance of any part of myself. By seeing this way, I have been able to develop many different aspects of myself with very little inner turmoil. I have embraced my many identities and used them to enhance my authentic, or core, self.

[julieisafemme]

Excellent thread!

At Butch Voices LA we had this same discussion in a workshop on feminism. One woman made the point that labels are what people apply to you and identity is how you see yourself. She said that the two are conflated sometimes and that is not good for people. She said that she wants to have an identity before someone applies a label to her. This is bad paraphrasing but that was the gist.

I feel the opposite of some here in that the more I have learned about myself the more I have been able to define myself with language. The words are powerful to me! I am a Jew, queer, a femme, neurodiverse. These are all words that I chose to define myself and they are hard won and precious to me.

I am more authentic now than in any other time in my life because I can define myself to myself and others. Maybe I have chosen the right words now instead of hiding behind the identity I had constructed for myself before.

[Passionaria]

*
Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *
.

identity:
1. the condition of being oneself or itself, and not another: He doubted hisown identity.
—Synonyms: individuality, personality, distinctiveness, uniqueness.

authenticity:
1. of undisputed origin or authorship; genuine: an authentic signature 2. accurate in representation of the facts; trustworthy; reliable: an authentic account

This is an interesting question Nat. I would like to add authentic to whom, because what appears authentic to me, may not appear so to another.

I see my general identity as both multi-faceted and fluid. Being gay is a small, but delicious facet of my whole being. I really liked the analogy of a single star and the whole night sky. It makes sense to me. I would call that single star a facet, as well as a thought when it comes to identity. Time as well comes to play with identity, and what we believe about ourselves which in turn forms our identity. For instance I was raised being a Ballerina, and at one point in my life it was my major identity. Who are you? I am a dancer. That experience had been so thoroughly explored and developed internally and spiritually that it was, and is still part of my identity. Now enters time. I am no longer either an athlete, nor a Ballerina, but I do still identify as a dancer. A person who loves dance and still has a deep understanding of the art of movement. Now it is about social dancing, and an "art" that I enjoy watching. Yet I still have the same deep inner knowing of dance. When I watch someone dance, or dance socially my understanding is the same as if I were still a Ballerina. Does that make me non authentic in saying i am a dancer? Without qualifying, yes it is misleading. And maybe to someone who does not know me deeply, but not to me, I will always be a dancer. So authenticity is in my mind subjective to the individual, and their experience, as long as there is not conscious deceit. Are any of us 100% who we think we are? Probably not. We are complex beings in a world and culture who's identity is reflective of it's own "definition of reality." Nebulous stuff.

I find that humans have basic traits, that prove consistent over time. Certain interests and desires that prove consistent over time. Certain genetics and behaviors that give rise repeatedly. Certain personality patterns that are consistent, all facets of who we are as a person. It seems to me that we usually present ourselves as who we believe we are, and we call that identity. As long as we don't lie on purpose, we are at least authentic unto our own viewpoint. I do believe we can work to be more honest with ourselves as our experiences become clear to us, and present that as clearly as possible to others. Weather or not they agree is dependent on their own story about reality.

You may have an opinion, but that does not make it the word of GOD..... me included!

:rose: Pashi

[Martina]

There are ID's that fit my sense of me, and ones that don't fit as closely. Some are easy -- lesbian, for example. Others are more problemmatic -- femme, for example. The important point for me is that i shouldn't allow myself or others to use an identity to put into question who i am or how i walk through the world. My sense of what works for me does not have to fit anyone's sense of what a femme should be, for example.

i also think there are IDs that say a lot about who i am, but that i don't think about much. They are not valuable to me, not fought for, not ones that helped me grow. Middle class is an example. It says a lot about me. But i didn't earn it. i am grateful for having had to struggle less than i might have had to. But i don't feel pride about my class status. i don't think about myself as a middle class person very often. But i think AS a middle class person every day. i am sure it says way more about me than femme does.

[Gemme]

Wow. Interesting topic. I'm excited to read everyone's take on it.

For me, I am not my identity. How I id myself is my simplified, shortcut way of expressing a part of who I am to the listener. And to myself for that matter. I always have been authentically me and have spent a great deal of my life frustrated because I lacked words for who/what I am. How I feel. What's inside.

Being human, I am multifaceted and haven't got it all figured out yet (probably never will) so I know that parts of how I identify are subject to change. That isn't to say that everything is temporary, I just feel it's important to question beliefs with an open mind. As time goes on I learn more and more about myself and how I relate to the world around me and my identity gets refined. Or something that I've thought to be safe statement about me gets put through the fire and doesn't survive, so I know it wasn't truly a part of me.

I say MOST of it is subject to change because some things have remained true long enough for me to state as unequivocal fact. I'm turning 48 soon and I have always been happily, unwaveringly female. When I was a little girl, I used to hang out with tomboys (budding femme that I was) and wonder why anyone would want to act like or be a boy. ;) It's not that I haven't questioned my gender, it's that I have and the answer has always been the same.

Tl;dr: I am not my identity, my identity is a simplified, partial explanation of me.

I really relate to what you wrote here, Nightshade.



To respond to the main question...the title question...for me...they have. Much less now than before, though. For a while, when I was still trying to figure out what was going on with me and where I was going and who I was, I identified with identities that didn't fully explain or connect with myself. I did it out of laziness and of fear. I had an identity but I wasn't being completely authentic with myself.

As I've grown and evolved, I've become more authentic. The identities that are right for me came only after I began to be true to myself.

Shakespeare may have had something there...:thinking:...

[dixie]

Hmm...very interesting topic. I will definitely have to read more of the thread and think on it. I can say this however... I do use "labels" for myself. BUT my labels describe me, they do not define me. I am ever evolving, changing, growing. My authenticity of self never waivers no matter what new describing label/identity I use or discard. I guess for me personally, they compliment one another more often than conflict...

[EnderD_503]

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?

It really depends on the role of an identity or identities for an individual. It is possible for a person to create an identity for themselves in order to portray themselves in a certain way to others. The reason for that may be for self-preservation, self-perceived self-preservation, because they want to become that identity in order for others to see them a certain way, because they simply want to change themselves, deceive others, were convinced that that's who they were by others and so on.

On the other hand, identity can also serve as a tool toward self-discovery, and I think the LGBT community is a good example of this. For many, taking on an identity is a way of, first and foremost, explaining themselves to themselves. Afterwards it becomes a way of explaining themselves to others. It may also serve as a launchpad to deciding that that is not their identity, but leads them toward further understanding themselves.

Identity may also serve as a way to realise that one doesn't need an identity in order to have one, if that makes any sense.

Identity is also a great unifier among those who bear a common perspective, or it can be a great divider.

As for myself, I think that the role identity has played in my life has reflected much of the above. In many respects it has been the route to self-discovery. On the other hand, certain aspects of my identity have also been created for what I thought was self-preservation and reputation, and so they are not necessarily aspects of my "authentic" self.

On the other hand, there is no such thing as an "authentic" Ender, since the individual is constantly changing. I am not the same person I was yesterday, nor that I will be tomorrow. I am not static, so what is "authentically" me is never static. There are certain core components that will likely remain, but even they will progress toward what I view as my ideal self (or will view as such, in the future).

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?

It both unites and divides, as well as do neither, depending on the situation. Covered that above before I saw this question.

What does identity offer you? It offers me a way of exploring myself, developing myself, understanding myself, moving on from the past to a better future. It also allows me to better understand others by hearing or reading what they've got to say about their own identity.

While identity may appear to be a box/series of boxes mainstream society places individuals into, I think observing the vast numbers of identities out there serves to show us how many differences and commonalities we all have. It's also intruiging to see how complex and diverse the human species is.

What does it take from you? What can occasionally take from me is not something that is inherent to possessing an identity, but the chance that someone will look at your identity and make assumptions based on it. No matter my identity, I am still ever-changing, and identities and labels can only explain who a person is to a certain extent. All in all, I am never 100% what I claim my identity to be. It may be a way of explaining me in words, but it doesn't explain everything, because I can't even explain everything.

Do you see your identity as flexible? Mostly, yes. There are certain consistancies that have remained throughout my life, and I'd be surprised if they changed later on. That said, there are certain aspects that have changed, whether to take on a more solid/decisive shape or to be discarded as useless.

Have you felt pressure to identify? No. There are certain aspects of my past identity (that still linger, for sure) that formed partially because of environment, and partially because of personality. There were pressures, but I don't think they pressured me to become who I became.

As for gender identity or sexual identity, the greatest pressure I've ever felt was to conform to heterosexual norms.

[Queerasfck]

Sometimes I feel really constricted by labels and question what they really mean to me. Other times I don't care about them at all. And also, being part of an online community sometimes I put pressure on myself to "fit in" and use a label.

[dykeumentary]

This is a great topic!
I don't have clear ideas yet on authenticity, but I do know that where I am from, my family does not know any of the "language of identity" that's used on a website like this, and in gay culture. My town sees me as "the one of Carol's (my mom) kids that's artsy." I actually feel more whole and integrated when I'm with my family, than with people who can list off my identities. It's kind of how they look at all art, too If there's a "Jesus" in it, it's "art," if it doesn't then it's "modern art". So for me an aspect of this thread's topic is about access to language/vocabulary. And also if language is descriptive or divisive.

[LeftWriteFemme]

Offering you my three angle measurements may not tell you everything about my triangular nature, but it lets you know right away that I am no square.......

[The_Lady_Snow]

I want to talk about identity. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while now. I suppose for some time now, I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.

I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out.

So I have some questions floating around and I'd love to hear other people's takes on these:

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?

Each branch (label) that is chosen by myself and others is a chosen or placed definition of who I am. They are small branches of what makes me Snow.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *

As I grow older my identities (labels) and authenticity go hand in hand, I'm more mature and have accepted who and what I am evolving too so therefore it carries how true I am to myself.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?

Depends if we let it divide us, it can be a choice I choose to not let it and let them co exist happily with one another

What does identity offer you?

Expression, room to grow

What does it take from you?

Identity does not take from me, what others choose to placed on me as an identity does

Do you see your identity as flexible? Yes, I don't tend to sit still and go stale, so like with anything else in me its fluid and runs with my course

Have you felt pressure to identify?

Not at 40 I sure don't, as a younger queer yes after 30 *I* chose to not let those pressures disturb my life's course.

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience.

For an identity-positive quote, I'll cite the Dead Poets chop-up of Walt Whitman:

.

If a label feels constricting or it's something that I have not chosen to use I will fight it. I'm not built to fit into lil boxes I always tend to ooze out of them so with that and maturity I feel we all will either continue to evolve or stay stagnant and when we do stay that way there can be no authenticity.

[DapperButch]

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

[Lynn]

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

I was just going to write something similar. I seem to be having trouble thinking with the discussion. Maybe it's a matter of how I define and use the words identity and authenticity, and labels.

My identity, to me, is who *I* am, at the core. The labels are ways to express aspects of myself, authentic or not. Authenticity depends on how closely my life and living echo my identity.

When I was living as a heterosexual in the burbs, trying to fit myself into the expectations of my husband, parents, and community, I was very unhappy. My life was not being lived with authenticity. I had labels, some of which still hold true, but they were only generalizations.

Even now, I say I'm a lesbian, knowing that everyone has a different idea of what that means. I don't say I'm a femme, even though you might think I am (my partner does), because it just doesn't seem real to me. I was a mom, and I still am. But, being a mom who is more self-aware makes me a better mom. So, the label "mom" doesn't mean the same thing now that it did 18 years ago.

To me, identity is who I am. Authenticity is the most honest expression of that. This requires self-awareness and a willingness to change and grow. Labels are the shorthand that may or may not truly convey the reality of me to you. Self-awareness is, I think, the key. In the process of self-dscovery, I've seen a lot of people try on and sometimes discard how they want to live and be seen. That's the process of self-discovery, and is necessary, I think, for being more and more authentic. It's a process.

[Gemme]

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

Why would anyone try to be or portray a version of themselves that isn't true? :blink:

Haven't been to a school lately, have you, Dapper?

*grin*

I was just going to write something similar. I seem to be having trouble thinking with the discussion. Maybe it's a matter of how I define and use the words identity and authenticity, and labels.

My identity, to me, is who *I* am, at the core. The labels are ways to express aspects of myself, authentic or not. Authenticity depends on how closely my life and living echo my identity.

When I was living as a heterosexual in the burbs, trying to fit myself into the expectations of my husband, parents, and community, I was very unhappy. My life was not being lived with authenticity. I had labels, some of which still hold true, but they were only generalizations.

Even now, I say I'm a lesbian, knowing that everyone has a different idea of what that means. I don't say I'm a femme, even though you might think I am (my partner does), because it just doesn't seem real to me. I was a mom, and I still am. But, being a mom who is more self-aware makes me a better mom. So, the label "mom" doesn't mean the same thing now that it did 18 years ago.

To me, identity is who I am. Authenticity is the most honest expression of that. This requires self-awareness and a willingness to change and grow. Labels are the shorthand that may or may not truly convey the reality of me to you. Self-awareness is, I think, the key. In the process of self-dscovery, I've seen a lot of people try on and sometimes discard how they want to live and be seen. That's the process of self-discovery, and is necessary, I think, for being more and more authentic. It's a process.

To me, you answered your own question. When one is being authentic to him or herself, and identifies in whatever manner allows them to be authentic, then there is little to no conflict within. When one is not authentic to their self, then there's conflict. It may be internal or external or both.

It's like a gear shaft, I think. If all the gears are in line, then the grooves will fall into place and the machine will run smoothly. If something's off (identity or authenticity or both), then the gears will jam and grind. Sometimes that's a good thing, but not usually.

My .02 without much sleep, so I hope it makes sense.

[DapperButch]

For some reason I am really struggling with this topic. I don't know if I am missing something here?

If I choose to be an authentic person, then I would only attach labels to myself that are fitting, no? I wouldn't attach a label that didn't fit my definition of self.

So for me, unless one intentionally attaches a label that isn't connected to who they are, then there is no conflict with authenticity and identity. I am not sure why anyone would do that.

What am I missing here, folks?

Why would anyone try to be or portray a version of themselves that isn't true? :blink:

Haven't been to a school lately, have you, Dapper?

*grin*






Ohhhhhhhh..... Got it.

<---Dapper be dense.

Thanks.

[dykeumentary]

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

[little man]

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

how does one go about transcending the pieces of themself that make them who they are? and to what end?

[dykeumentary]

how does one go about transcending the pieces of themself that make them who they are? and to what end?

I think thats the question everyone would have to answer for themselves, and that's the beautiful thing about asking it.

So since that sentence sounded a little "Yoda" even to me, I guess I should also say that I am trying to figure out how to use my experience, my family background and my blessings as an artist, in the service of humanity and truth.

[Nat]

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?

Thanks - I think you understood where I was coming from better than I did. This isn't too Yoda-ish to me. :) I also like your clarifying post afterwards.

You said, "Is the whole greater than the sum of its parts?"

which made me think of Leonard Cohen's Anthem, when he says/sings, "You can add up the parts but you won't have the sum."

And then I started thinking about the words "whole" and "sum" and - I hope this isn't too far out there - I think "whole" is to "authentic" as "sum" is to "identity."

To study Buddhism is to study the self.
To study the self is to come to know the self.
To come to know the self is to forget the self.
To forget the self is to be at one with all things.

- Dogen Zenji

I'm not a Buddhist, though I suppose over the last few years I've been exposed to an increasing amount of some American Zen Buddhist thought. If I take the Buddhism out, I'm left with a (cyclical) experience: To study the self is to come to know the self is to forget the self is to be at one with all things (lather, rinse, repeat). That "one with all things" thing - I only get that in moments if I'm lucky - but I spend a lot of time with the studying and the coming to know the self part.

Over the last 5 years, I have spent a great deal of time, energy, thought, emotion on studying and expressing (my) self - my orientation, my gender ID looming especially large at least at times. It feels a bit like I've been chasing down butterflies and pinning them to a board, and only now am I finding that the most important thing about the butterflies is their interaction with the flower.

I hope this makes sense - I am exhausted beyond words. :) goodnight.

[Turtle]

I want to talk about identity. I've been wanting to talk about it for a while now. I suppose for some time now, I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.- I think our lives are about being and/or becoming more and more authentic as we grow through different stages

I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person I think identity can be too much of a focus and end up being a distraction, but it doesn't need to be.

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out. Yeah, who are you/what are you? Declare yourself and in some groups you know you will no longer be welcome if you declare as the wrong whatever. AND indentifying with a group can be part of the process of figuring out who I am and who I am not, what do I want to be or do - or not.

So I have some questions floating around and I'd love to hear other people's takes on these:

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity? I have not been very good at fitting into boxes in my life and I'm cool with that. Forever in between the categoriesand sometimes I have moods that are stronger than usual and I'll think more about trying testosterone or maybe I will get another motorcycle, but usually I'm just regular old me....and when I was 15 and had to put on my bad-ass walk when I went out and I refused to cry - neither one of which was healthy.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? I think much of the time, identity is a vehicle to get to know yourself better, including when "indentity" changes or melds. Identity may define us in a role - student, sister, parent, etc. - and as life goes on we have more and more layers.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither? Anyone may choose any direction with this.

What does identity offer you? I have very much enjoyed being at a conference and identifying with a group, going to workshops, discussing, sorting out bits and pieces, and being a part of a large group. And in the end, it's just me in this skin.

What does it take from you? At times, I have been too much about the boots, the jeans, the bad-ass...for me life is way easier and better without the crap.

Do you see your identity as flexible? VERY.

Have you felt pressure to identify? In the past, but not for a very long time.

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience. From where I sit "mixity" is good. Mix it up, try it on, play with it...and be real. YAY!! Thanks NAT!! I believe that we are all works in process.

[weatherboi]

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic person

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity?it is a means of expressing how i feel inside. transgendered verbiage is not recognized or understood widely through out this country. that is the barrier. how the world reads me usually comes from a space where they have no knowledge of an identity that is authentic to me.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *
i think that relationship is relative to each person. for example, a queer person in closet at work or a queer person not out to their family. i don't think this set of circumstances makes a person inauthentic.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither?
i have seen it do both. for myself, my identity unifies me, even when the rest of the world reads me as something i am not. i have also seen it divide and create much tension with people i know and love but that is on them.

What does identity offer you?
a safe space in my own mind so i don't get disconnected from my physical self.
What does it take from you?
for a second, i think it takes away opportunity to know certain people but then i think...their loss!!!

Do you see your identity as flexible?
not really flexible...sometimes i am fluid because i can be a swishy kinda guy.

Have you felt pressure to identify?
no...my identity is a very personal part of me that isn't formed through pressure but is formed from a need to align myself with what i see in the mirror and in my mind.
.

I don't really feel a division within myself over my identity and my authenticity. I feel divided outwardly when people judge me for decisions I make regarding my identity, so I am guarded in the company I keep.

Sooo does identity and authenticity conflict??
It could happen if i was to allow myself to recognize identities and labels as a hierarchy/value system but i don't. I try to do my best to be a person of my word and this provides me personal authenticity. When I am not of my word I don't feel authentic. I try not to place a value system on authenticity because we all have circumstances that are different and special so my hope is people provide me with a benefit of the doubt I try and provide them with.
:mohawk:

[Chazz]

Hi, I'm new here and wanted to say hello.

I'm not one to label myself. My persona is in balance with my inner being. These days, I don't give "identity" much thought unless someone else brings the issue up, or it's pertinent to a conversation.

It's a relief not to be self-preoccupied, though I do think that identity self-preoccupation is a necessary part of the "coming-out" process. It's not something we do to ourselves. It's a feature of growing up in the false duality of masculine/feminine and imposed heterosexuality. It is possible to get stuck in self-preoccupation, but coming out the other side of that is a huge relief.

[DomnNC]

Interesting questions and responses. I define me, I define my identity and I did that a long time ago even in high school and before. I know what my identity is and I don't need anyone to validate that, period. As long as I'm true to MY chosen identity then I'm being authentic to myself and others. It's just that simple to me.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I know who and what I am for as long as I can remember. I am not sure I really understand the authenticity and identity conflict. What does this mean?

[Greyson]

Yet another thought provoking thread started by you Nat. Thank you. I don't know how I missed this one up until today. I was looking for an appropriate thread to post a link to an article about a young genderqueer student at UC Berkeley. The article speaks to "Multiple Identites."

I know for me as a Queer person with multiple identies sometimes in the LGBTQ community I think some of the whole of who I am does get muddled. I am not only a gender, race, class, I am "other" which at times seem to have divergent needs.

For me my identities assist in my becoming more and more authenic. I am a viable part of the whole. (IMO we all are.) If I have no self understanding, self knowledge, self acceptance how does it color the whole of which I am a part?

Anyway, here is the link to the article about the young person who is part of our LGBTQ community and more.

__________________________________________________ ___________


“Queer students here hold multifaceted identities and belong to multiple communities,” Rosas said, adding “many of whose lives are impacted by decisions such as these.”

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/10/23/33306/

[Nat]

Yet another thought provoking thread started by you Nat. Thank you. I don't know how I missed this one up until today. I was looking for an appropriate thread to post a link to an article about a young genderqueer student at UC Berkeley. The article speaks to "Multiple Identites."

I know for me as a Queer person with multiple identies sometimes in the LGBTQ community I think some of the whole of who I am does get muddled. I am not only a gender, race, class, I am "other" which at times seem to have divergent needs.

For me my identities assist in my becoming more and more authenic. I am a viable part of the whole. (IMO we all are.) If I have no self understanding, self knowledge, self acceptance how does it color the whole of which I am a part?

Anyway, here is the link to the article about the young person who is part of our LGBTQ community and more.

__________________________________________________ ___________


“Queer students here hold multifaceted identities and belong to multiple communities,” Rosas said, adding “many of whose lives are impacted by decisions such as these.”

http://newscenter.berkeley.edu/2012/10/23/33306/


Greyson - have I mentioned lately that you're awesome?

[Dance-with-me]

I have not yet read all of the responses but I wanted to reply.

For me, the issues come up when one or more of my various identities goes against the stereotype of another of my identities: that is a good thing in some ways, particularly in terms of breaking down stereotypes, but it also makes being stealth the default for those identities and that's not what I always want.

For example, being true to my femme identity means that my queer identity is not always obvious - I am perceived as straight. Being intelligent, educated and articulate (can't think of one word that would define that as an identity, but it IS one of my identities, an important part of who I am) means that my Appalachian roots and identity are not always obvious - people are [often rudely] surprised that I should identify as Appalachian when I don't have the accent of most of my kin, I didn't grow up there (military brat), and I don't fit their stereotype.

More later - just realized I should be on my way to work!

[Sachita]

I think the most interesting aspect of this thread is the question: is the whole greater than the sum of it's parts? If identities are stars in a vast sky what can be gained by seeing the whole universe as a wondrous collection, versus focusing on a few stars? I prefer to ponder the OP as not about clinging to indentities, but rather transcending them. Thoughts?


I get this.

Even the little bit I share here I find people want to authenticate me and try and label me. I get this from comments people make and see how they form judgments. People place way to much value on words.

My community sees me as an advocate for animals and farming. The mature woman who has all those animals. lol I meet with a few women friends here and there, my age who enjoy art and nature. They might swing by after bible study to take a walk with me or see what I'm growing. Most people know I'm a lesbian but don't talk about it. Most don't really care and have no idea about the personal inner workings of my life. I don;t hide it. I just don't announce it. I come here to share this part of me but often find it sad when the community I turn to for support wants to judge and label me.

[Martina]

Being intelligent, educated and articulate (can't think of one word that would define that as an identity, but it IS one of my identities, an important part of who I am) means that my Appalachian roots and identity are not always obvious - people are [often rudely] surprised that I should identify as Appalachian when I don't have the accent of most of my kin, I didn't grow up there (military brat), and I don't fit their stereotype.


I have had a version of this one my whole life. Appalachian parents, raised in SW Ohio so less of an accent (none now) and higher education. The people being rudely surprised experience -- so been there..

[Dance-with-me]

I have had a version of this one my whole life. Appalachian parents, raised in SW Ohio so less of an accent (none now) and higher education. The people being rudely surprised experience -- so been there..

My mom and her side of my family are all from the S/SW Ohio Appalachian diaspora -- mostly Ironton/Portsmouth area (ever hear of Franklin Furnace? it was my home base growing up, where my mom grew up and where my Granny lived until she couldn't take care of herself any more). More kin in Springfield, and many of the ones who "escaped" and "moved up" in the world went to Cincinnati (where I ended up going to college).

People say ignorant things to me about my lack of accent, as if it's some disability that I should be thrilled to not have to overcome, when there's nothing more that I'd love to hear once more than my Granny's thick accent grown in the hollers of eastern Kentucky. They don't get why I prize the sustenance scrap quilts my Granny made over the prize-winning magazine-cover quilts that my mom has made, or why the object I hope the most to inherit is the quilt my mom made from the bow tie blocks that my Little Granny pieced long after she went blind. They are quick to stereotype "trailer trash" and refuse to recognize that for many poor rural folk, a trailer is a big step up and a source of pride. They don't get why as a queer person and feminist and liberal I stay so close to cousins who are right wing conservative Christian, never getting that they are no more wholly defined by their political and religious views than I am by mine, and that I know sides of them that they can't fathom, including that any one of them would take me in, come rescue me, and be there for me no matter what if I needed that from them.

Sometimes the only way to be authentic to a part of your identity is to battle the stereotypes, but in can just get so exhausting when those stereotypes are so pervasive.

[princessbelle]

This is a good topic and one to really think about.

I think of my authentic self as my core of all identities rolled into one being...me.

I have a lot of identities, mother, daughter, girlfriend, nurse, femme, ect...

But, without the identities and their changes over the years, i am still my authentic self. In other words, my identities can change as i evolve and grow and become. My authentic self is the core of my being, the "here you are spot" in my world and conscious.

I guess i don't find they are in conflict because the authentic self of *me* wins.

This comes to mind...

"A rose by any other name would smell just as sweet" Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet.

Call me what you want, label me an identity or i will identify myself. Doesn't change the essence of the mother ship in my soul. I am who i am.

[Martina]

My mom and her side of my family are all from the S/SW Ohio Appalachian diaspora -- mostly Ironton/Portsmouth area (ever hear of Franklin Furnace? it was my home base growing up, where my mom grew up and where my Granny lived until she couldn't take care of herself any more). More kin in Springfield, and many of the ones who "escaped" and "moved up" in the world went to Cincinnati (where I ended up going to college).

People say ignorant things to me about my lack of accent, as if it's some disability that I should be thrilled to not have to overcome, when there's nothing more that I'd love to hear once more than my Granny's thick accent grown in the hollers of eastern Kentucky. They don't get why I prize the sustenance scrap quilts my Granny made over the prize-winning magazine-cover quilts that my mom has made, or why the object I hope the most to inherit is the quilt my mom made from the bow tie blocks that my Little Granny pieced long after she went blind. They are quick to stereotype "trailer trash" and refuse to recognize that for many poor rural folk, a trailer is a big step up and a source of pride. They don't get why as a queer person and feminist and liberal I stay so close to cousins who are right wing conservative Christian, never getting that they are no more wholly defined by their political and religious views than I am by mine, and that I know sides of them that they can't fathom, including that any one of them would take me in, come rescue me, and be there for me no matter what if I needed that from them.

Sometimes the only way to be authentic to a part of your identity is to battle the stereotypes, but in can just get so exhausting when those stereotypes are so pervasive.

My parents both came up from eastern Kentucky to Xenia, Ohio. I went to college for a while in Springfield. My love of the culture is expressed through a love of the music although I admire the crafts. My mom has a lovely collection of quilts, but I don't know anything about them. We have to make a database of her stuff soon, so I know what is family stuff and what is stuff stuff.

I feel a real affinity with folks who grew up in places like Ohio or Texas or Illinois, but whose sense of cultural identity is mostly Appalachian. There have been a lot of amazing musicians who were products of the diaspora: Daryl Scott, Steve Earl, Troy Campbell, Rodney Crowell, Dwight Yoakam. I actually taught a course in Appalachian Studies (once) at the University of Michigan. I haven't kept up with the literature although I have read Silas House. (He also writes about music.)

I don't like to be reverse pretentious. My family is not from the hollers. My great grandfather on one side was a judge (notoriously corrupt). Another was a doctor. Lots and lots and lots of my relatives are or were teachers. I do have some relatives who live in trailers etc. But most of my relatives live in McMansions.

I have had less luck with keeping in touch. I fell out of touch for decades, and then took my dad back to the family reunion summer before last. He wanted to go one last time, and my mom couldn't both drive and care for him. So I flew to Florida and drove them up to Kentucky. My extended family on my Dad's side are beautiful to look at and fun to be around. They have attractive and accomplished children, nice houses and expensive cars. They have lived good lives. But the vast majority are evangelical Christians and Republicans. Only a few have been OK with my sexual orientation. In person they are civil; maybe three (not close relatives) are warm. When I connected with them on Facebook after the reunion, it wasn't pretty. In truth, these are not people who would help me or protect me as most Appalachian families do. My uncle who is gay is either hated or ignored unless someone wants money from him. He has lived in LA for forty-some years. I wish my family were a source of strength.

I have always felt a class difference even though my parents were school teachers. In Xenia, the "briars" were second class citizens. People made fun of my mother's accent. My dad altered his accent until he retired when it came back in a rush. So many "briar" jokes I heard growing up. We went "home" a lot of weekends and to the cabin at Lake Cumberland for the summers. We had a strong connection to eastern Kentucky. My parents went to college at Morehead, and they returned for homecoming most years. My grandmother went to Berea, and we took her there on visits too. People are pretty loyal to their alma maters down there. ANyway, Kentucky -- the food, the woods and lakes, the late summer nights -- it is all much more vivid in my memory than the neighborhood I grew up in in Ohio.

When I went to college in Ohio, the class differences weren't that meaningful, but when I got to graduate school in Ann Arbor, Michigan, yeah, wow. Huge differences. There is a big difference between the life I lived and the ones lived by my fellow students who came to Michigan from Brown and Yale. I tended to clump with other folks who experienced the class difference, if for different reasons. One friend was from rural Indiana, another from Nogales, Arizona. Another was from Detroit -- not the suburbs.

There's new research out that shows that putting kids from poor and working class backgrounds into elite universities does them -- and their careers -- a disservice. It may be good for the institutions, but it's hard on the students. There was a NYTimes article this week on what hell it is for poor kids (usually POC) who are recruited into elite prep schools. I don't compare what I went through in Ann Arbor to that, and certainly if one intends to be a professor -- which I did at the time -- elite is better. But it did exacerbate the injuries of class I had already received in Xenia.

When I was growing up, we had a colorful painting of the map of Kentucky in our family room as well as art by Kentucky wildlife artists in several rooms. We were proud and wistful and looked upon Kentucky as a sort of lost Eden. Yet my parents did not retire there as many of their colleagues did. My mom refused. The mountains made her feel claustrophobic. And even though she had never been super poor there and she faced no threat of poverty with her Ohio teacher's pension earned, she felt like it would have been a return to the life she had lived as a child during the Depression and WWII. She would not consider it. My dad was fine with her decision. The golf courses are open year round in Florida, and he learned to fish in salt water.

Anyway, I am rambling. My point is that even my parents have a love-hate relationship with Kentucky. But my parents are Kentuckians -- from EASTERN Kentucky. That's who they are. It's mostly expressed in screaming at the TV during basketball playoffs. But it's real. My mother's cornbread has no equal. It's the first thing I get when I go home: pinto beans and cornbread.

I never felt at home in Ohio or Kentucky although I loved Kentucky more. I got out basically -- out of both of them -- first to the liberal ghetto of Ann Arbor -- and then to California. When I visited Kentucky last year, I was struck by its beauty. There is no place like it. No place so green. No place where the food tastes as good. And it was wonderful to see people who looked like me and who talked like my parents. It felt like home, but it wasn't home. It's an idea of home that doesn't exist for me, that never existed for me. I am not alone in that experience. It is more common than ever.

I am reading Catfish and Mandala right now -- a memoir by a person who came to the U.S. from Vietnam when he was ten years old. His brother, a transman, committed suicide for reasons that have to do with being trans and coming from a violent family, but also because -- it seems -- he was so profoundly displaced. He had been more at home in Vietnam as a kid with his grandmother. He never felt at home after he left.

This sort of thing is a high end problem for me and many people, but it's not for some. It's certainly a fact of our age. I live in a town with many many immigrants from China and India. I see their children walk to school every day. While there are more differences than similarities in our experiences, it does remind me sometimes of my own relationship to Kentucky, which is more my home than any other place, but where I have never lived and where, in truth, I am unwelcome.

[Dance-with-me]

Martina, wow, thank you for writing that. Yes, our Appalachian roots are somewhat different but the experience of connection yet rejection and the deep love for the beauty and so much of the cultural heritage of that place is very familiar to me. My dad's family was edging towards white collar by the time he was born (g'mom was a school teacher - though with just a HS education - and g'dad was a supervisor at the plant where he worked), but my mom's was poor. My Granny really was raised in an eastern KY holler - two rooms, 7 kids, no plumbing or electricity. My gr-granny (Little Granny) was married when she was 14, Granny when she was 16, mom when she was 17. Mom spent half her life without indoor plumbing until my grandparents finally had scraped together enough money to build a house in Franklin Furnace in 1954 when my mom was 14, and there were people in that neighborhood who still had outhouses and hand pumps when I was a young teenager in the early '70s.

I could write so much more but I don't want to monopolize this thread. Thank you again. It's very good to hear from someone who really gets what that part of me means to me.

[Dance-with-me]

OH I did want to make one comment on the class issues at elite universities: I did a year of graduate school at Tufts (83-84) and I was completely unprepared for the class difference - at least a University of Cincinnati I was able to meet and bond with folks from a similar class background. I will never forget a meeting at the "Tufts Lawn and Garden Club" - their euphemism for the lesbian and gay club - where someone complained that the meetings need topics since all they usually did was just sit around and chat, mostly about their fear that mom and dad would cut them off if they found out they were gay. One person suggested that at the next meeting we discuss what it was like to be a gay person in the different countries where they'd traveled in the past year. I honestly thought that they were joking, until I saw the nods and heard others agree that was a good idea. I cracked up laughing and asked them if Kentucky counted as a foreign country -- because at that moment, to me, they felt as completely foreign to me as the folks in other countries felt to them. They looked at me like I'd had a psychotic break. I never went back.

[ruffryder]

I don't believe Identity is a way to avoid having to become authentic but vice versa. One becomes authentic because of their identity(ies). Identity is used to identify a person and what they encompass. It makes them authentic to how they may identify.

I do not feel identity(ties) are barriers to authenticity. I believe it is an expression of that authenticity. There may be a relationship between the two words or there may not be depending on the person and how they may identify or use as an identifier for themselves or in their life. Identity can unite that authenticity in one's life or it can divide it.

Identity for me signifies what I am and shows people who I am and can be and that encompasses a wide range of identities and beliefs and people. It can be flexible depending how others see it and how they can relate to it. I don't think it can ever take anything from me or away from me, it is how I relate to it and want it to relate to others and in my life.

I haven't felt pressure to identify. I had one co-worker put all gay women into a box labeled "lesbian" and I just said I don't identify as lesbian and left it as that. I'm sure he was confused and he's a gay man, but I felt no need to explain it to him. I found that with not one, but two gay men here recently. He is one to cause drama at work and talk about everybody's life so I just left it alone. Normally, I will explain to people how I identify (trans as one) and what that means to me.

Great discussion here!

[~baby~doll~]

Nat you pose interesting questions. The idea of identity is always muddled if we don’t stop and examine who and what we are. I look female does this make me one? No. My idea of who I am is what makes me who and what I am. We live our identity and it is not what society deems worthy of handing to us. There is a constant search for who we are, if we decide to go looking for the names. The names we find are more for others to grab onto so they better understand us or me.

I've had an internal debate going about what identity is and what its role is in a human life.
It is a good debate to have. This question drives the search to see if this names we call ourselves add to our humanity.
I chose the above quote to start this discussion because it contains within it a small definition of identity which I had not heard: *
“…when you start to look at ideas that way, you start to see ideas as tiny stars in the vast space of your mind, even if they feel like they are right here, like they are everything. But they're not. It's an illusion."” - Rebecca Walker -
The idea of identity is within the human spirit. We are all as different as night and day. Our identities will never match up. You and I may both like tomato soup. You might like more salt or pepper. You can’t really know how tomato soup tastes to me. So how would it ever be possible for you to really know who I am? I guess this concept is what makes these identities we carry around illusion.

identity: a way to avoid having to become an authentic personDoes the idea of identity really keep us from being authentic or does it make us more authentic as it whispers to others how we define our being in words. I could say I identify and a woman. Well this helps make me more tangible. I can add I am queer. Now you know more as do I because this was something I learned about myself. I am therefore more authentic to me and to you. We can take the search even father and find more terms that can identify us as well.

I identify as a lot of different stuff. This definition interests me, because I hadn't heard it put that way before, though I did feel a great deal of pressure to identify when I first came out. Sure we identify as a lot of stuff. These aren’t labels identities are realities of the core of us. They name the spirit and nature of what we are and who we are. Yes we identify as so many things. Woman, lesbians, wives, and so on into infinity language wise. When I first came out which I never really did the terms were simple. I could be queer, dyke, or lesbian. I did not know more names. There was no place to research as there were no websites or computers.
Now in my search in today’s language I can define this so I am more authentic to you and me. I can truly hang a name on my identity. Does it matter not really because I am who I am. Through my search I can tell so much and you would know me better. I would be more authentic.

Do you feel the identity or identities you carry are barriers to authenticity or do you think of them as means of expressing your authenticity? I think naming our identities helps others see a more tangible us. We reveal ourselves and so it adds to their knowledge of what it is like to be me. I am Third Gender Queer, now you know this and get a better feel for me and my nature. It inhibits nothing and adds so much. You may not know what that feels like but if you google and define it you can get an idea.

Or, to put it another way, what do you feel the relationship is between identity and authenticity? *If we have really bothered to self-examine then the named identities add to others understanding of us.

Do you feel like identity unites or divides or both or neither? Neither it promotes better understanding which can unite or divide depending on who is listening.

What does identity offer you? It offers me a chance to tell you what it is like being me and who me really is or as closely as the words can get us.

What does it take from you? It takes away the mystery because I had to seek the words and the definitions.

Do you see your identity as flexible? We are always in flux or I am but most of wht I would say about me is true enough of the time to be honest.

Have you felt pressure to identify? Never, I have sought knowledge of self and this opens doors to realities I never knew existed.

I have so many mixed feelings at the moment, but do feel some division between my identity and my most authentic self - but I feel like my most authentic self is the person in charge of my identity if that makes sense. I feel like here in this community, I bring both my identity and my authenticity, but then if I hung out with you, you might get a different and equally authentic experience. My identity is my authentic self. I have as much control over my identity as I have of being other than queer. I don’t have control over most of it. I can put on a fancy dress instead of a suit and tie. It changes the exterior of my identity but it does not change me in the least. I will still be the one that hates wearing dresses. If I see or hear the words you use to identify yourself I am closer to your truth and the authentic truth and just seeing you as a lesbian. There is more to you than that and I would love to learn that truth. IT makes our bond stronger and our relationship deeper.

[Deborah*]

I'm very authentic.. and genuine. That's the best way to be in my opinion. The people you attract by being your true self are the ones who like you for who you really are.

I've always been a femme who has always liked butch lesbians. It's just something that's natural to me.

Deborah