*,\'(;-)/.?!:"...

[Nat]

Isn't it neat (or possibly horrifying) how punctuation rules and usage seem to be changing so rapidly over the last decade?

Anyway, this is the punctuation thread. :) And spaces are fine to discuss here too.

[Mister Bent]

Long live the ellipsis!

[The_Lady_Snow]

I thought maybe it was a pretend cussing thread.

%#*%£!

I'm terrible with punctuation I'm sorry:(

[Martina]

My housemate, a high school English teacher, does not use or teach the use of commas before coordinating conjunctions.

:eyebrow:

[Deborah]

Hi, my name is June and I am apostrophe challenged.

Hi June...we're glad you're here.

[princessbelle]

At my company, the computer system that we use doesn't allow for any punctuation except a period.

Nothing else at all. This has made me almost go postal a few times. Try writing down vital signs without a slash. We have to type 120 over 80. Stupid.

And forget trying to quote a patient. We have to say.... start quote blah blah blah end quote.

My company paid thousands of dollars for this program and if it were up to me they would get their & out of their () and FIX the freaking thing.

So, i miss using puntuation. This thread brings a tear to my eye.

Finally a place i can shout to the world.

I LOVE AND MISS YOU PUNCTUATION!!!!!!

Thank you for this wonderful thread. (f)

[AtLast]

I thought maybe it was a pretend cussing thread.

%#*%£!

I'm terrible with punctuation I'm sorry:(

LOL..... I'm with you! And will always take poetic license with punctuation.

:|

[daisygrrl]

I love, love punctuation--especially the dash ;-) Oh, and a well placed semicolon makes me giddy. I know, I know: I'm a nerd :glasses:

Language is a living entity, so it only stands to reason that punctuation will fluctuate in its usage, too. I always remind my students that they should use punctuation as a tool to enhance clarity. Rules, which change all the time--be damned :koolaid: Writing can be fun, damn-it!

[rlin]

im with the mister bent... all anyone needs is the ellipsis... it gives you time to breathe when you read....possession is implied mostly anyway... the rest is just for looks...

[hpychick]

Oh, I do believe you've made my heart go pitter-patter! In the age of texting and emoticon-ing, it seems the art of true writing (and proper form) has been lost!

I can now die in peace, knowing that someone out there loves punctuation like I do!

<3

[WolfyOne]

*raises hand* I am bad with punctuation

Wow, I feel much better now that I got that out

Does this mean I'm going to have to start ending my sentences with a period?

If June is challenged by ', I just want to say with me, it's pure laziness

[Mister Bent]

im with the mister bent... all anyone needs is the ellipsis... it gives you time to breathe when you read....possession is implied mostly anyway... the rest is just for looks...


Sweet baby jesus in lucite, then you go and defile it!

The ellipsis is three (3) dots, not 4 (except when the ellipsis is used in place of omitted words at the end of a sentence, or the beginning of a sentence following another, where in both cases a period is also employed), not 5, not 17.

It is not comprised of commas, or any other string or combination of punctuation marks.

Some other liberties with ellipses I can tolerate (proper grammatical usage, even - see above), but do not alter the beauty of its simple form.

I beg of thee.

[Mister Bent]

I recently went through a spate of reading a lot of Gertrude Stein, who is infamous for her lack of commas and punctuation in general.

Even though I think she was kind of a fascinating wack job, I felt a certain kindred spirit-ness with her.

Spell check that, Mr. Bent.

Spirit-ness (c)


Well, some might spell it "whack" job. But this thread is about punctuation, Juney, so I will remain on seated hands with regard to the atrocities of spelling found within.

[daisygrrl]

Ya know, I think that people are just too worried about "being wrong" with punctuation (or grammar) because of the mean-ole-English-teacher stereotype (and lived experiences).

Laziness is one thing, but I think that even text-messaging is its own, valid language (just sayin').

BTW: I adore Stein.

[girl_dee]

I am sure nothing compares to the complete overuse of the punctuation mark.

I find this to be mostly true on forums like Facebook.

It just annoys the HELL out of me !!!!!! oh wait...

[Diva]

Sweet baby jesus in lucite, then you go and defile it!

The ellipsis is three (3) dots, not 4 (except when the ellipsis is used in place of omitted words at the end of a sentence, or the beginning of a sentence following another, where in both cases a period is also employed), not 5, not 17.

It is not comprised of commas, or any other string or combination of punctuation marks.

Some other liberties with ellipses I can tolerate (proper grammatical usage, even - see above), but do not alter the beauty of its simple form.

I beg of thee.




While Your begging is moderately hot, I shall use as many ellipsesi (did that make You twitch, Mr. B?) as I wish........as using said dots is how I speak in real time....like a continuing thought.........that gets all stirred up on occasion.......... and I use that time.............to reorganize said thought(s) and continue spewing.

My grammar is sparkly.

[daisygrrl]

I am sure nothing compares to the complete overuse of the punctuation mark.

I find this to be mostly true on forums like Facebook.

It just annoys the HELL out of me !!!!!! oh wait...

I totally relate...the overuse of exclamation marks makes me feel like I need to step back :vigil:

[Mister Bent]

While Your begging is moderately hot, I shall use as many ellipsesi (did that make You twitch, Mr. B?) as I wish........as using said dots is how I speak in real time....like a continuing thought.........that gets all stirred up on occasion.......... and I use that time.............to reorganize said thought(s) and continue spewing.

My grammar is sparkly.

It's going to be like that is it? I refuse to believe you use dots in speech in real time. What you do is pause, which is not the intended use of ellipses. My goat will not be gotten, lady!

[Martina]

Does this mean I'm going to have to start ending my sentences with a period?


Yes. (note the period)

[princessbelle]

Have you ever talked like you write? Actually say the words "she said" or "question mark" at the end of a sentence when you ask a question?

It is sorta fun and it's not as easy as you'd think

Warning though... (counts three)

it may land you a slap especially if the someone you are talking is allowed to slap you and sometimes even when they are not.

[Diva]

For Mr. B....................

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w293/ingcarlos26/Cats/ellipses-cat.jpg

[Porcelain]

William Shatner...

[AtLast]

I am sure nothing compares to the complete overuse of the punctuation mark.

I find this to be mostly true on forums like Facebook.

It just annoys the HELL out of me !!!!!! oh wait...

And here I thought we were friends.... damn! I'm totally heart broken.

[Queerasfck]

<(")...........

[Diva]

I'm so............confused! <~~~Sassy....please note only ONE exclamation mark. Thank You. :eyebat:

[Mister Bent]

William Shatner...


Who invokes the Shat?!

[Ebon]

Hi, my name is June and I am apostrophe challenged.

HI JUNE!!!!

I love this one ~.

[Mister Bent]

Because now I HAVE to -

"tilde"

[Mister Bent]

Are you mocking my Phonetic Spelling's?

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/mrbent/phoenician-alphabet.jpg

Ignoring the improper use of the apostrophe.

[Diva]

Right?
I mean.................why use a silly ol' -, when one can use a mini~rollercoaster!

[Diva]

Sometimes, I'll get a phonetic when I've been talking too long......


I blame Joon.

[hpychick]

This grammar, conjunction, punctuation chatter has me all a-twitter.

I swoon for the tilde! (Especially when spelled correctly.) And let us not forget the proper use of a semi-colon; you know, to connect two distinct sentences, or line up a notable series!

[moxie]

As long as we are talking about the tilde, I really like the umlaut and the cédille. But then again, I like my vowels and c's.

It's not for everyone.

[Nat]

I wish English would adopt the Spanish upside-down "?" and "!" to put at the beginning of questions and exclamations. Not only does it look cool, but you actually get a heads-up about the tone of the sentence at the beginning where it makes sense.

I used to think I knew the rules of punctuation, but my brain has gone out to pasture. Texting for 7 years and internetting for 15, and it really feels like there are no real rules at all anymore. Plus I read this book called "Eats Shoots and Leaves" which was a hilarious book on punctuation written by a British woman. British punctuation is different from American. Even though she explained the differences as she went along, I've never been right in the head again. That book is laugh-out-loud funny to me. I never thought I'd read a book on punctuation ever in my life, but it had me in fits.

How would you punctuate the following sentences?

I really love the word azure because its really pleasurable to say

if you know your abcs wont you come and sing with me

apostrophes can indicate possession a contraction or in some cases can be used before an s to pluralize an initialism and thats it

Where do you put the period in the following sentences?

She wished she could stop time (she always harbored secret yearnings for certain superpowers)

The word you are thinking of is "idiosyncratic"

And, how do you address letters these days?

I was taught:

"Dear So-and-so,"

but my partner's technical writing textbook says it should always be:

"Dear So-and-so:"

When did we switch to colons for addressing letters????

I just don't know anymore about any of it. It seems all loosey goosey. I think anarchy has triumphed in the world of English punctuation. It's kinda nice.

At work the other day, I got an email.

"I don't handle this type of request..."

and I really felt like the ... was short for "you _____"

I try to avoid this sort of use of ellipses because they make me paranoid when they are thrown my way.

I guess it's not just loosey goosey these days - I think punctuation's getting in a lot more with expressing emotion and personality and tone. Writing has never had to pull so much of the weight of social behavior before (as far as I know). <--I think think that's where the Brits put the period, but I'm not sure where American English puts it.

and here's a question:

Are emoticons a kind of punctuation?

oh - and about spaces:

Do you put one space or two between the end of one sentence and the beginning of another?

I was taught to put two, but the young ones have informed me that the rule is now one space and that the two-space rule was more tied to typewriters than computers. What say ye?

[Turtle]

I really love the word azure because its really pleasurable to say



I reall love the word azure because it's really pleasurable to say. ~ and that's as far as I go.

I love (most) punctuation........I just can't stand all the RULES!!! Fuck the rules!!! I love ~ and !!! and @, # $, % ,&&&, *** ^ < > ,,,??:{[}]; "='+_)(|\` and especially the two little dots and the little scoopy cuppy thing I can't make. Thanks Nat, I've never felt so appreciative of all the punctuation friends we have!!! I just want to run around kissing all of 'em!

G'night,
Turtle :glasses: Huh?! What happened!?
And (and I like beginning sentences with and), just like everything else in my life ~ I like to mix and match

[Nat]

I reall love the word azure because it's really pleasurable to say. ~ and that's as far as I go.

I love (most) punctuation........I just can't stand all the RULES!!! Fuck the rules!!! I love ~ and !!! and @, # $, % ,&&&, *** ^ < > ,,,??:{[}]; "='+_)(|\` and especially the two little dots and the little scoopy cuppy thing I can't make. Thanks Nat, I've never felt so appreciative of all the punctuation friends we have!!! I just want to run around kissing all of 'em!

G'night,
Turtle :glasses: Huh?! What happened!?
And (and I like beginning sentences with and), just like everything else in my life ~ I like to mix and match

:) using color as punctuation = awesome :)

[Diva]

It's going to be like that is it? I refuse to believe you use dots in speech in real time. What you do is pause, which is not the intended use of ellipses. My goat will not be gotten, lady!




It IS going to be like that, Mister.
THANK You for seeing things my way! That made me happy!

And I HAVE been known ~ on occasion ~ to actually SAY "Dot, dot, dot" (I might even do the little chubby quote fingers, TOO! What do You say to THAT, Peter Puncto?)

Your goat.
Mine..................all MINE!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Diva]

I wish English would adopt the Spanish upside-down "?" and "!" to put at the beginning of questions and exclamations. Not only does it look cool, but you actually get a heads-up about the tone of the sentence at the beginning where it makes sense.

I used to think I knew the rules of punctuation, but my brain has gone out to pasture. Texting for 7 years and internetting for 15, and it really feels like there are no real rules at all anymore. Plus I read this book called "Eats Shoots and Leaves" which was a hilarious book on punctuation written by a British woman. British punctuation is different from American. Even though she explained the differences as she went along, I've never been right in the head again. That book is laugh-out-loud funny to me. I never thought I'd read a book on punctuation ever in my life, but it had me in fits.

How would you punctuate the following sentences?

I really love the word azure because its really pleasurable to say

if you know your abcs wont you come and sing with me

apostrophes can indicate possession a contraction or in some cases can be used before an s to pluralize an initialism and thats it

Where do you put the period in the following sentences?

She wished she could stop time (she always harbored secret yearnings for certain superpowers)

The word you are thinking of is "idiosyncratic"

And, how do you address letters these days?

I was taught:

"Dear So-and-so,"

but my partner's technical writing textbook says it should always be:

"Dear So-and-so:"

When did we switch to colons for addressing letters????

I just don't know anymore about any of it. It seems all loosey goosey. I think anarchy has triumphed in the world of English punctuation. It's kinda nice.

At work the other day, I got an email.

"I don't handle this type of request..."

and I really felt like the ... was short for "you _____"

I try to avoid this sort of use of ellipses because they make me paranoid when they are thrown my way.

I guess it's not just loosey goosey these days - I think punctuation's getting in a lot more with expressing emotion and personality and tone. Writing has never had to pull so much of the weight of social behavior before (as far as I know). <--I think think that's where the Brits put the period, but I'm not sure where American English puts it.

and here's a question:

Are emoticons a kind of punctuation?

oh - and about spaces:

Do you put one space or two between the end of one sentence and the beginning of another?

I was taught to put two, but the young ones have informed me that the rule is now one space and that the two-space rule was more tied to typewriters than computers. What say ye?


Good Gay!
Is this a TEST?!?!?!?!? <~~~~ Oh YEAH? Whadaya call THAT!? :eyebat:

[girl_dee]

I'm so............confused! <~~~Sassy....please note only ONE exclamation mark. Thank You. :eyebat:






duly noted !!!!

oh damn.

[rlin]

mr bent... i have decided... thru careful introspection... that like everything in my life... i have perverted said ......... to suit my own basic needs... from this point on... as ms jordan... my fav english teacher... is my witness... i will never say ellipsis again... long live the dots!

as for shatting.... itsa lotta work and a pain in the arse...

and
on a real note...

several thangs contribute to the perversion that is my speech here... laziness... convenience... and... i tell myself efficiency adds to it... thats prolly bullshit tho... being from the south and typing it like i say it is another reason...
learning shorthand all those years ago contributed to my fonetik problems...
other than that---------
i was always a fan of ee cummings... and... hated faulkner who wrote the longest sentences in the history of the world it seemed to me and i have a tendency to do what punctuation tells me to do something i wish i didnt do but i again give nods to ms jordan who was a hella woman...

[dixie]

Unfortunately, I wayyyyy over-use punctuation on here. For me, I use commas and ..... to emphasize, so to speak. If anyone has heard me actually talk and heard this thick Southern accent that I have, you'll know that I tend to speak with a lot of pauses and emphasis on things (and a lot of drawl on my words). When writing, I tend to use commas especially, to show the emphasis. Basically, I write how I talk. (And I say talk instead of speak, cause, well...lol) Unfortunately, I guess when reading from someone else's perspective, I probably look like a comma crazed maniac, or at very least, a serial punctuation-ist. :|

[rlin]

used to make periods out of the extra letters in my alphabits and soups...

[Gemme]

It's going to be like that is it? I refuse to believe you use dots in speech in real time. What you do is pause, which is not the intended use of ellipses. My goat will not be gotten, lady!


You have a goat? Does June know about this?

:blink:

Unfortunately, I wayyyyy over-use punctuation on here. For me, I use commas and ..... to emphasize, so to speak. If anyone has heard me actually talk and heard this thick Southern accent that I have, you'll know that I tend to speak with a lot of pauses and emphasis on things (and a lot of drawl on my words). When writing, I tend to use commas especially, to show the emphasis. Basically, I write how I talk. (And I say talk instead of speak, cause, well...lol) Unfortunately, I guess when reading from someone else's perspective, I probably look like a comma crazed maniac, or at very least, a serial punctuation-ist. :|

I can relate to this. I also write as I talk and, if I pause in my thoughts/speech, then there's a comma. And then another...

[suebee]

Seeing as how there's another thread up called "anal" my Sweetie thought maybe this thread should be called "colon". :|

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion on grammar. :goodluck:

[Medusa]

This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears, and bananas.

Or This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears and bananas.

[Porcelain]

Who invokes the Shat?!


rlin does ... apparently.

[Medusa]

Comma porn-------> http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm

[Gemme]

This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears, and bananas.

Or This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears and bananas.

I've been told either way is acceptable.

Commas are VERY important.

See example:

Let's eat Grandma.

orrrrr

Let's eat, Grandma.

:blink:

[Medusa]

Yeah, I learned in elem school that the comma had to be there or the last two things would be grouped together like "macaroni and cheese" versus just macaroni and just cheese.

I did, however, get a HUGE inappropriate giggle out of the idea of eating Grandma :)

[Nat]

This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears, and bananas.

Or This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears and bananas.

I remember a teacher telling the class that the rule changed from the first to the second. I also remember a teacher bitterly complaining about how this rule change affected the meaning and rhythm of poetry included in our textbooks. I tend to agree it's sacrilege to change punctuation within an already written poem in order to conform to updated punctuation standards.

In 2001, I helped prepare a professor's paper for submission to a scientific journal. That journal was still requiring the comma before the "and." I had the fun job of hunting these down and fixing them.

As far as I can tell, the inmates are running the asylum.

[princessbelle]

I was taught, a thousand years ago...

No comma before the word and because the and is in place of the comma which is distinct seperation of and including another..thing.

I use two spaces after the . If not, it's not special and it appears to be just a space within a sentance and it should be special. It is special and i will continue to make it special.

I believe these two things have changed now. I don't care, i'm still using it as was taught to me because it feels right.

Wow i didn't realize how passionate i feel about some punctuation. But, it is a form of our communication and represents our thoughts and feelings.

I suppose it's ok to feel this way. :vigil:

[morningstar55]

Hi, my name is June and I am apostrophe challenged.

hahaha........ I am too.... LOL and i know im .... dot .. happy . LOL LOL

[morningstar55]

I thought maybe it was a pretend cussing thread.

%#*%£!

I'm terrible with punctuation I'm sorry:(

.. LOL .. i kinda did too.... lol ..

[The_Lady_Snow]

<@>

That up there is punctuation warning code!

[Chancie]

This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears, and bananas.

Or This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears and bananas.

Yeah, I learned in elem school that the comma had to be there or the last two things would be grouped together like "macaroni and cheese" versus just macaroni and just cheese.

I did, however, get a HUGE inappropriate giggle out of the idea of eating Grandma :)

The comma before the 'and' is called the Harvard comma, and

I tend to think of it as the rule we follow when we want to be extra correct.

I went to an old fashioned high school.

I remember a teacher telling the class that the rule changed from the first to the second. I also remember a teacher bitterly complaining about how this rule change affected the meaning and rhythm of poetry included in our textbooks.

<snip>



And a generation later . . .

[DapperButch]

The comma before the 'and' is called the Harvard comma, and

I tend to think of it as the rule we follow when we want to be extra correct.

I went to an old fashioned high school.



And a generation later . . .

Wait a minute...so which is true? Medusa's version or Nat's?

I learned to go with the first (Medusa's version).

Can anyone substantiate this? Meaning, is this "official"?

[Gemme]

Wait a minute...so which is true? Medusa's version or Nat's?

I learned to go with the first (Medusa's version).

Can anyone substantiate this? Meaning, is this "official"?

SOMEbody's been looking in the 25 cent word dictionary.

:eyebrow:

[DapperButch]

SOMEbody's been looking in the 25 cent word dictionary.

:eyebrow:

:|

I'm actually preparing my big word usage in case I have to call my Ph.Ded sister (in English), in order to get the answer to this question. :tease:

[Gemme]

:|

I'm actually preparing my big word usage in case I have to call my Ph.Ded sister (in English), in order to get the answer to this question. :tease:

It's good to be prepared. :thumbsup:

[Chancie]

Which is correct: 'phone' or 'telephone'?

[Gemme]

Which is correct: 'phone' or 'telephone'?

"I'm going to ring 'em on the telly, I am!"

Cockney accent optional.

:blink:

[Diva]

This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears, and bananas.

Or This?

Today I went to the market and bought apples, pears and bananas.


I believe the 2nd one........because that first one makes me crazy.

Harvard, Schmarvard. :eyebat:

[DapperButch]

Which is correct: 'phone' or 'telephone'?

Teacher, teacher, please answer my question. Seriously, has it really changed? Can you ask your English teacher friends?

[Diva]

Which is correct: 'phone' or 'telephone'?



Cell.......................

[Gemme]

Teacher, teacher, please answer my question. Seriously, has it really changed? Can you ask your English teacher friends?

You were THAT child, weren't you?

:blink:

[DapperButch]

You were THAT child, weren't you?

:blink:

Ummmm....yeah. :o (w)

[Gemme]

Ummmm....yeah. :o (w)

I knew it!

[Chancie]

Teacher, teacher, please answer my question. Seriously, has it really changed? Can you ask your English teacher friends?

One source says that the Harvard comma is mandatory in the United States but

Another source says it depends on which style guide is used, and

That depends on the discipline.

And, I didn't know there was a special word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_(linguistics)), but

I would use it if it makes your writing flow more clearly.

[DapperButch]

One source says that the Harvard comma is mandatory in the United States but

Another source says it depends on which style guide is used, and

That depends on the discipline.

And, I didn't know there was a special word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosody_(linguistics)), but

I would use it if it makes your writing flow more clearly.

Thank, Teach! I will stick to the old way, that you very much! :hangloose:

[Nat]

Wait a minute...so which is true? Medusa's version or Nat's?

I learned to go with the first (Medusa's version).

Can anyone substantiate this? Meaning, is this "official"?

I like wikipedia's take on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma).

(I also get a sadistic charge from citing wikipedia - I imagine the three librarians in my family all feeling the urge to tsk concurrently when I do so).

Arguments for and against

Common arguments for consistent use of the serial comma:

1.Use of the comma is consistent with conventional practice.[11]
2.It better matches the spoken cadence of sentences.[12]
3.It can resolve ambiguity (see examples below).[13]
4.Its use is consistent with other means of separating items in a list (for example, when semicolons are used to separate items, a semicolon is consistently included before the last item, even when and or or is present).[14]

Common arguments against consistent use of the serial comma:

1.Use of the comma is inconsistent with conventional practice.[15]
2.The comma may introduce ambiguity (see examples below).
3.It is redundant in a simple list, since the and or the or serves by itself to mark the logical separation between the final two items.[16]
Many sources, however, are against both automatic use and automatic avoidance of the serial comma, making recommendations in a more nuanced way (see Usage and subsequent sections).

Also, I love the fact that Lynne Truss' Eats, Shoots & Leaves is quoted in the article:

"There are people who embrace the Oxford comma, and people who don't, and I'll just say this, never get between these people when drink has been taken."

[violaine]

[QUOTE=Nat;300026]I like wikipedia's take on it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma).


"There are people who embrace the Oxford comma, and people who don't, and I'll just say this, never get between these people when drink has been taken.

I am all for not ignoring the Harvard Comma.

Another source: http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxabandc.html

[Softhearted]

As a french speaker, I suffer from the comma syndrome... At least, that is what some of my professors told me about my papers written in english... :seeingstars:

[Daktari]

Which is correct: 'phone' or 'telephone'?

I believe telephone is the correct full word and phone is an acceptable contraction of it. A bit like refrigerator and fridge. Or aeroplane (airplane in the U.S.) and plane.


I was also taught that a comma does not precede the word and.

[fishinabaggie]

Finally!!
A thread I can call my own!!!

~I Tilde my ASS off! ~

I start a LOT of sentences with "And" <I am a mother several times over....there is a legitimate reason for beginning some of my sentences with "And"!

I regularly aggravate my love by using ellipsis incorrectly. She aggravates me by tailgating. Tit for Tat.

I capitalize when I should not........I don't when I should. ~sigh~ I cannot stop reaching over to the upper left hand corner and ~putting~those~tildes~everywhere!!

My mother is an editor and she cringes when she sees my punctuation. <And my spelling.
AND my refusal to own 16 purses.
AND me putting the toilet paper square so it starts behind the roll instead of OVER the roll.
etc.
She loves me despite me being such a disregarding rebel!!
You guys need to also! :)

Thank you for providing a thread that feels like home. I am now going to find the girls room here and reverse the toilet paper.
:)