Japanese reactor crisis

[dreadgeek]

Okay, before I begin I want to make something clear. I'm NOT a nuclear engineer. I have never worked in a nuclear power plant. I considered being a nuclear power plant technician when I was contemplating joining the Navy and during that time I read everything I could get my hands on regarding nuke plants, how they work and various post-mortems on Three Mile Island. I have the understanding that, say, a decent science reporter might have. I understand the underlying physics pretty well and I'm following this unfolding event very closely.

My purpose in starting this thread and posting is NOT to show off. Rather, I know that *I* am concerned and I imagine other people are as well. To that end, I'm going to try to share what information and understanding I have. If you have a question, I will do my best to answer them.

It might be helpful to explain how nuclear power plants work and why TMI is the better model for what is happening than Chernobyl.

So...

Nuclear reactors are just very fancy and highly efficient ways of boiling water. As Einstein demonstrated a hundred years ago, E=MC^2 or energy is equivalent to the mass multiplied by the square of the speed of light (~186,000 mps in vacuum). The practical upshot of this equation is that very small objects contain a HUGE potential for energy. When certain substances are split, they release energy and certain kinds of metals--like uranium--actually have their atoms split rather easily. When an atom is split what happens is that a neutron hits the nucleus of an atom, causing it to be broken into smaller, sub-atomic components. As the protons and electrons are stripped from the atom that process releases energy. One by-product of this is yet *more* neutrons which hit yet *more* nuclei of U-235 (uranium with an atomic weight of 235) which causes a chain reaction. Another by-product of this is heat. The mass of the uranium-235 is being turned into energy in the form of heat and radiation. Radiation is simply high-energy parts of the electromagnetic spectrum.

So, the way this process works is that you have fuel rods that are filled with refined uranium-235 in pellets. Those rods are lowered into the core of the reactor where the nuclear reaction begins. To keep the temperature manageable most Western reactors (the Japanese use designs closer to Western designs than the old Soviet design--more on that below) cool the core by immersing the whole thing in water. As long as the water is kept at a sufficient level, the reactor will do its job of heating water, turning it into steam, the steam turns a turbine which has an electromagnet in which creates electricity. There are also control rods made of a material that will absorb neutrons without fissioning themselves. These control rods are lowered into the 'pile' (the fissionable material) to absorb neutrons thus slowing the reaction or removed to allow more reactions.

The problem facing the Japanese right now is that with the pumps down, they can't keep circulating water through the reactor. That means that any water covering the core will evaporate. This will turn into steam and with the plant shut down that steam has no place to go. It will build up in the containment building until the pressure is too great. KNOWING that this kind of thing could happen, designers of reactors build the containment buildings so that any explosion caused by a build up of hydrogen gas (this is NOT a hydrogen explosion as you would see in a nuclear bomb) will push *outward* away from the reactor itself so even if the building is damaged the reactor should maintain its structural integrity.

If the core is uncovered the rods will start to melt and can actually burst into flame. This should give you an idea of how hot (in the heat sense not the radioactive sense) the core of the reactor can get to that metal doesn't just melt it actually *burns*. This is the most immediate concern is that they will lose all control of the reactor, the reactor will become uncovered, the rods and the reactor housing itself will all melt into slag and then the we have to hope that the concrete floor of the containment building will stop it. That is, of course, the worst case scenario.

Whenever a problem happens at a reactor, it will either automatically shutdown or be shutdown by the human operators. This is called a 'SCRAM'.

(I'm going to close this post out and do another one on TMI and Chernobyl)

[Toughy]

Thanks for doing this! As a person living on the west coast, I am a bit concerned because the prevailing winds will blow whatever radiation is leaked to the west coast.

My understanding of the news this am is that the rods were left exposed twice yesterday/today. The second time has left the rods still exposed as I type.

There is also a second and maybe a third reactor in danger.

Here is an excerpt from the yahoo news article this am.

Water levels were restored after the first decrease but the rods remained exposed late Monday night after the second episode, increasing the risk of the spread of radiation and the potential for an eventual meltdown.

The cascading troubles in the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant compounded the immense challenges faced by the Tokyo government, already struggling to send relief to hundreds of thousands of people along the country's quake- and tsunami-ravaged coast where at least 10,000 people are believed to have died.

Later, a top Japanese official said the fuel rods in all three of the most troubled nuclear reactors appeared to be melting.

Of all these troubles, the drop in water levels at Unit 2 had officials the most worried.

"Units 1 and 3 are at least somewhat stabilized for the time being," said Nuclear and Industrial Agency official Ryohei Shiomi "Unit 2 now requires all our effort and attention."

In some ways, the explosion at Unit 3 was not as dire as it might seem.

The blast actually lessened pressure building inside the troubled reactor, and officials said the all-important containment shell — thick concrete armor around the reactor — had not been damaged. In addition, officials said radiation levels remained within legal limits, though anyone left within 12 miles (20 kilometers) of the scene was ordered to remain indoors.

[Melissa]

I've been following this as much as possible too. More in terms of the human element and suffering but also about the nuclear reactor, core meltdown and attempt to lower the temperature. There is a lot of info on the web and the news has been doing a good job of explaining how it all works, why the pumps stopped working, the failure of the backup generators, and how/why the meltdown happens. Can you post links to the articles you are reading?

Melissa

[dreadgeek]

So, the two nuclear events that occurred that most people remember are TMI and Chernobyl. These were VERY different kinds of events caused by VERY different causes and by the design of both plants.

TMI was a less severe event than Chernobyl for two reasons:

1) TMI-2 (the reactor that had the problem) was in a containment building.
2) TMI-2 was a pressurized water reactor which are safer.

So what happened at TMI-2 was that a pump failed, then the main pumps feeding water into the system failed. This caused the reactor to SCRAM, as it was designed to. However, just as a pot stays hot for a little while after you remove it from flame, a reactor core stays hot for a while after the control rods are inserted into the pile. This is called decay heat. So the reactor still needed to be covered. TMI-2's operators violated an operating rule and had all three auxiliary pumps shut down for maintenance (the NRC requires that if you're doing this, you shut down the core). Because the pumps couldn't get water into the reactor, steam began to build up in the containment vessel. A valve got stuck open and this allowed coolant (water) to escape which caused the core to be partially uncovered.

To make matters worse, the human operators misinterpreted an indicator light on the stuck valve. The design of the light only recorded if power was going to the solenoid for the valve, NOT the actual valve position. So the operators interpreted the light being out as meaning that the valve was closed.

At this point, pressure in the reactor was dropping. The higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point of water. With the pressure reducing the coolant started to boil off, causing a buildup of steam. A hydrogen bubble formed but fortunately there was no oxygen in the containment vessel which meant that the hydrogen couldn't ignite or explode. To bring the reactor under control, the operators released steam (which was controversial at the time) and used other mechanisms which I won't belabor to shrink the hydrogen bubble.

As it turns out, even though people treat TMI as a truly horrific event, more things went right than went wrong. Even with a cascade of mechanical failures, exacerbated by human errors, there was no significant release of radiation to the atmosphere. Several epidemiological studies have been done in the last nearly 40 years and found no higher incidence of cancers in the area surrounding the TMI facility than would be otherwise expected.

Chernobyl was a very different kind of event:

During a test, one of the reactors experienced a power spike. This caused lots of bubbles to form and steam pressure to build up in the reactor core. This prevented water from getting into the system to cool it down. There were then two explosions which damaged the fissile pile, preventing the control rods from being fully inserted, which led to a second explosion. This explosion tore the roof off the building, set fire to an adjacent reactor building and ruptured the containment vessel. At this point the whole core was aflame.

Part of why Chernobyl went SO bad is that the containment vessel (which is metal) was not in a containment building. It was in a normal, industrial building, built to Soviet building standards at the time.

[Medusa]

GAH! Thank you for this - I have many questions.

So, I deduced that this shit is hot by the fact that they were saying it would take sevreral days to cool down and was wondering how hot we are talking about? I mean, are we talking several hundred degrees or are we talking nitro molten lava?

The other thing Im wondering is that we noticed it was snowing as all of this was happening. If they are venting steam from the stacks and there have been explosions, could the snow be carrying radioactivity down to the ground and into the water table?

And what makes radioactivity dissipate? Does it actually go away or does it just get broken up into particles so small that they are no longer dangerous?

[suebee]

Does anybody have any idea what the current patterns are off the coast of that part of Japan? They probably vary by time of year, but they will in great part determine where the prevailing winds will blow any radioactivity. What I know about this wouldn't fill a Jr. High School primer on the subject, I'm sure, but I did a bit of training as an emergency responder in case of a nuclear accident in the eighties (there's a nuclear power plant about forty miles from here) and the one thing I remember is that another city much further up the coast was the most likely point of major contamination because of the tides and winds. Good for us - not great for them.

[dreadgeek]

1) Will the reactors explode like a nuclear bomb?

No. That can't happen. The physics of a nuclear bomb being detonated are different than the physics of a nuclear power plant. There are no conditions that could ever occur in the core of a reactor that would be sufficient for the large, immediate, release of ALL of the energy. A nuclear bomb is releasing all of the energy in the fissile material in a matter of a second. A nuclear power plant does not have the conditions necessary for that kind of fast reaction.

2) Will radiation kill me?

High enough doses of radiation will kill you. That said, you are exposed to radiation every day. The Sun is bombarding you with radiation, the ground is bombarding you with radiation. The thing is we evolved on this planet so our bodies are capable of, more or less, are capable of dealing with the daily exposures. The problem is when you get high doses of radiation. The kind of radiation that concerns us is ionizing radiation. The danger of this form of radiation is that it is high energy and thus enough to break chemical bonds. This includes the chemical bonds in our DNA which can cause replication errors leading to cancer.

3) Will the reactors experience a full meltdown?

No one knows. This is terra incognito however, the thing that is helping me sleep at night is that it is clear the the plant operators are trying to 'kill' the reactor instead of bring it down gracefully so it can be started up later. By 'kill' I mean that they are pumping sea water into it and, of course, salt is a corrosive. They are also injecting boric acid into the reactor. The key here is not the acid but the boron. That element absorbs neutrons without fissioning so it will slow down the reaction rate in the core. I would be FAR more concerned if they were trying to save the reactors.

That's it for now. I will answer questions as asked to the best of my ability. I'll update this thread as I get more information and process it.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

I've been following this as much as possible too. More in terms of the human element and suffering but also about the nuclear reactor, core meltdown and attempt to lower the temperature. There is a lot of info on the web and the news has been doing a good job of explaining how it all works, why the pumps stopped working, the failure of the backup generators, and how/why the meltdown happens. Can you post links to the articles you are reading?

Melissa

Melissa:

Part one, where I discussed the basics of how reactors work was mostly done off memory. Where I needed to look up some terms to make sure I was using them correctly and to just make sure I had not left out anything *critical* to understanding (obviously I oversimplified quite a bit) I checked against the 2008 Encyclopedia Britannica which I keep a copy of on my hard drive.

Part 2, where I discussed the TMI and Chernobyl I used Britannica again and Wikipedia's articles on the subject. My explanations are simplified distillations of:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

Part 3:

Questions 1 and 3 are operating off internal information. Question two was from memory and reality-checked against http://www.hss.energy.gov/HealthSafety/ohre/roadmap/achre/intro_9_5.html.

My updates are coming from

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com

and

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12733393

Is that what you were asking for?

Cheers
Aj

[Andrew, Jr.]

After watching CNN, Fox, BBC, HLN, and other news casts I am very worried. First it was the explosions in the first then second reactors. The thinking of using the sea water to cool off the reactors. Then the sirens going off for people to evacuate. I feel like this is just unreal. It is such a humanitarian diseaster more like a nightmare. Then to learn that Japan has moved 13 feet! I just shake my head.

I have a short wave radio that I have been listening too. I have picked up some news from Japan, and what we are learning and what is being said here there is a delay of some kind. Why is that?

Also, for those interested the NOAA is something that everyone would enjoy watching and listening too. They are the main weather folks. They do alot with tides and currents. Also, the Navy has a public site but I forget what it is called. They show the currents, tides, and so on before and after the events in Japan.

My heart is broken by what has happened in Japan, and to the people and animals. It is why I am so very blessed with my life.

[dreadgeek]

GAH! Thank you for this - I have many questions.

So, I deduced that this shit is hot by the fact that they were saying it would take sevreral days to cool down and was wondering how hot we are talking about? I mean, are we talking several hundred degrees or are we talking nitro molten lava?

At the danger zone we're talking temps in the 1500 - 3000 F (815 - 1648 C) range. Hot enough to melt most metals and cause some to burnst into flame! (molten lava is typically in the 1300 - 2400 F (~700 - 1300 C) range)


The other thing Im wondering is that we noticed it was snowing as all of this was happening. If they are venting steam from the stacks and there have been explosions, could the snow be carrying radioactivity down to the ground and into the water table?

Yes, that absolutely could happen. That is one of the dangers of a meltdown is that the containment vessel will be ruptured and radioactivity will get out into the atmosphere. In fact, one of the reasons why Chernobyl was magnitudes worse than TMI was the *fire*. All of that smoke was radioactive as hell and that is why the entire city of Pripyat had to be abandoned.


And what makes radioactivity dissipate? Does it actually go away or does it just get broken up into particles so small that they are no longer dangerous?

Over time, the radioactive material will break down and get absorbed back into the atmosphere. Depending upon the nature and extent of contamination this can take varying amounts of time.

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Does anybody have any idea what the current patterns are off the coast of that part of Japan? They probably vary by time of year, but they will in great part determine where the prevailing winds will blow any radioactivity. What I know about this wouldn't fill a Jr. High School primer on the subject, I'm sure, but I did a bit of training as an emergency responder in case of a nuclear accident in the eighties (there's a nuclear power plant about forty miles from here) and the one thing I remember is that another city much further up the coast was the most likely point of major contamination because of the tides and winds. Good for us - not great for them.

I just saw a report on the BBC that current weather patterns would push a radioactive cloud out to sea. I guess the next question is how far, and who is in the way? They have finally called for international aid in regards to getting the situation with the reactor under control.

[Medusa]

Ohhh crap. Trying not to wring my hands but just heard on CNN that the second reactor had an explosion and that they think the containment vessle has been ruptured and that radioactive material may be leaking out.
On the surface I get what this means, but do we have a way of determining how much material will leak and how fast? An equation that says something like "Size of Vessel x temperature of exposed fuel rods x length of exposure = amount of radiation that will escape"? And further, what is the area that will be affected?

And would there be other factors that would affect how much and how long radiation will leak? Like, and pardon my ignorance here, if the temperature is cold outside vs hot and humid, does that make a difference? Does snow help drop that radiation to the ground? What if it rains?

(just call me chicken little)

[Andrew, Jr.]

I saw that too Medusa. It is scarey. I just wonder not only about the environment, but the poor folks who live so close to that plant. I am wondering also about the animals (both sea and land). The ripple effect is enormous for all of us.

[AtLast]

Ohhh crap. Trying not to wring my hands but just heard on CNN that the second reactor had an explosion and that they think the containment vessle has been ruptured and that radioactive material may be leaking out.
On the surface I get what this means, but do we have a way of determining how much material will leak and how fast? An equation that says something like "Size of Vessel x temperature of exposed fuel rods x length of exposure = amount of radiation that will escape"? And further, what is the area that will be affected?

And would there be other factors that would affect how much and how long radiation will leak? Like, and pardon my ignorance here, if the temperature is cold outside vs hot and humid, does that make a difference? Does snow help drop that radiation to the ground? What if it rains?

(just call me chicken little)



You are not being chicken. We should be asking questions and researching about what all of this could mean. I was feeling much more reassured with info from top nuclear power scientists and engineers just yesterday about containment "vessels" and buildings. Unfortunately, the news thus far about this situation goes beyond the parameters some of these folks talked about and into much more serious scenarios- some unknown or un-chartered territory (just like the Gulf deep water oil spill).

Waiting for the current experts to weigh in instead of the news media per se. Also, when these plants were built and went online is significant in terms of the possible dangers. Some of the hype is not helping in terms of fear factors. Japan has some of the worlds leading people in their nuclear power plant development and research.

Yes, as in past, I think about the fact that these kinds of natural disasters can push the envelope past the theory behind construction and management of these plants into mother nature being the one with the final say- or human error pushing it (hope the containment cement was mixed properly and inspected properly, for example) . Yet, there are people dealing with this that have a lot at stake including millions of their country-people.

[Linus]

Also from Daily What (comparison photo between Sendei 2011 and Nagasaki bombing of WWII) :

http://chzdailywhat.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/66320a84-133d-47b5-9463-ae2dbb149c5e.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-japan-quake-20110315,0,2212206.story

[Medusa]

Word, Atlast!
I have been trying to read multiple news sources over the last several days and have been looking at diagrams of nuclear facilities so that I can try to understand what is happening.

It also helps having someone with a scientific background (Thanks AJ!) draw a verbal diagram. Im fairly negative about depending on one news source to tell us everything we need to know and have pretty much accepted that we aren't getting the whole story.

From where I sit, it looks very much like there is a radioactive event of large proportions happening in Japan right now. I hope Im wrong but am fearful that Im not.

[Linus]

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/IAEA-No-Indication-of-Nuclear-Reactor-Meltdown-in-Japan-117971924.html

[Medusa]

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/IAEA-No-Indication-of-Nuclear-Reactor-Meltdown-in-Japan-117971924.html


This is so frustrating! This article reads as there has been no meltdown and another site http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/freetop.aspx is talking about how high the radiation shot up after the explosion.

I have been reading BBC news as well but this article from Reuters is fairly enlightening:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/14/us-japan-nuclear-analysis-idUSTRE72D8LM20110314

It says the shell is 4 - 8 inches of steel. That's something I didnt know; I thought it was an inch or two (hoping it's closer to 8 than 4!!)

[Linus]

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

[AtLast]

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

Good points! And I hope your last statement never happens! And lets face it, things like this get entangled with political motivations as well.

[Passionaria]

Thanks for taking the time to post this AJ! I appreciate info that I can actually understand. I too, have been very concerned. I am doing research on herbs and supplements that combat radiation poisoning. I will get back to all about what I find.....

:tea: Pashi

[dreadgeek]

Ohhh crap. Trying not to wring my hands but just heard on CNN that the second reactor had an explosion and that they think the containment vessle has been ruptured and that radioactive material may be leaking out.
On the surface I get what this means, but do we have a way of determining how much material will leak and how fast? An equation that says something like "Size of Vessel x temperature of exposed fuel rods x length of exposure = amount of radiation that will escape"? And further, what is the area that will be affected?

And would there be other factors that would affect how much and how long radiation will leak? Like, and pardon my ignorance here, if the temperature is cold outside vs hot and humid, does that make a difference? Does snow help drop that radiation to the ground? What if it rains?

(just call me chicken little)

Those are all good questions and at the absolute outside limit of my current expertise. I don't believe that there is an equation that will allow one to calculate exposure based upon the size of the vessel. I have been unable to find any information (and it may be that no one knows) how badly damaged the containment vessel is. At this moment, most of the radiation danger is still coming from the steam.

I'm quite concerned at this point. I'm not sure that they are going to be able to pull this off.

This is now really terra incognita. It's surpassed TMI but still isn't as bad as Chernobyl.


Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

[Gayla]

I usually tend to take things on face value but right now, I'm sort of on the edge of completely freaking out about this whole thing. The PM is going on TV and telling people that radiation is leaking and I can't help but wonder how much worse it is than what they are saying.

In something I read earlier today, a professional something or another, someone who knows these types of things said, "Right now, I'd worry more about looking both ways when I cross the street than about radiation hitting the West Coast." (totally paraphrased that, but, yeah). I want to know if he's going to come back and tell us when it's time to start worrying? Logically, I know that this is very unlikely but I'm not thinking all that logically right now.

[AtLast]

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

I think you might about those really on "the fronts lines" of this are in volunteer status and for me, it is not a stretch to attach "hero" to them.

There are quite a few heros in fields of science - those that developed life saving medicines and surgical procedures would stand out for me. Many others, too.

[Linus]

Article similar to what AJ said but with picture (for those of us who are visually inclined)

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/03/14/6268351-clearing-up-nuclear-questions

[Camo Eagle]

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

[Medusa]

Jack and I ordered a huge bottle of Potassium Iodide pills about 2 years ago (their expiration date is 2019) because we're crazy paranoid survivalists/preppers and think the end of the world will happen one day.

Just fyi: I looked online yesterday at multiple sites that normally carry these pills and almost all of them were out of stock. Not suprisring but rather alarming since I suspect there will be a large number of people trying to get these pills.

For those of you in the PNW and other areas who are so inclined to look for these pills, Source Naturals (an herbal supplement brand) makes these as well and you might be able to find them at random nutrition shops.

Now, would it do anything at all to cover windows/doors and vents with any material if radiation does start making its way across the ocean? Sheets of plastic? Wood? Sheet metal?

Jack is looking for a diagram right now that shows a visual of what insulates and how much against radiation. Will post in a bit.

[Medusa]

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

[Medusa]

Levels of radiation rise in Tokyo and Vicinity:

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110315D15JF919.htm

[Dude]

proper dosage?

it seems everything I read says something different.


the shit is selling out quite quickly
and I'd like to have some spare stuff to hook folks up on.
(worried fn hoarder)

plus my dog and duck ? 1/4 tabs was all I could find on dosage
for kids but for how long?

:twitch:

[Medusa]

proper dosage?

it seems everything I read says something different.


the shit is selling out quite quickly
and I'd like to have some spare stuff to hook folks up on.
(worried fn hoarder)

plus my dog and duck ? 1/4 tabs was all I could find on dosage
for kids but for how long?

:twitch:


Dude - The tabs we have are 85mg each which yield 50mg of elemental iodine.
Adult dosage is 2 tablets minimum daily dose for 3-14 days as directed by authorites (which means to me that I take them for a few days longer)

We bought enough to be able to dose our dog as well. Gracie's health is important to me so we have actually stockpiled enough food and water for her in our regular hoard of stuff for ourselves. Some people would resort to eating their pets if there was no food around, I'm not one of them.

I'm reading up on the dosages and have yet to find a website that has availability of either Potassium iodide or Potassium iodate.

AJ can probably tell us the molecular difference in the two.

From what I have read, potassoum iodate is an acceptable alternative to Potassium iodide and has a longer shelf life.

[Linus]

For those looking I did notice that this site still has some: http://www.thereadystore.com/emergency-preparedness-basics/iosat-radiation-protection-tablets

I'm contemplating getting a couple of boxes, especially since they are sale. And I also want to get an emergency preparedness kit.

[Medusa]

For those looking I did notice that this site still has some: http://www.thereadystore.com/emergency-preparedness-basics/iosat-radiation-protection-tablets

I'm contemplating getting a couple of boxes, especially since they are sale. And I also want to get an emergency preparedness kit.

Good find!! This wasnt on my list of sites that I regularly check - Adding it now!

[Linus]

Good find!! This wasnt on my list of sites that I regularly check - Adding it now!

I went to check Amazon and I noticed something: a few places have upped the price on these things -- $100-240 per pack (14 tablets)!

Sigh.

[Medusa]

I noticed that too, bubz. Looks like there are several sellers on eBay who have jacked their prices way up and there was actually one seller that was asking over $1000 for a case. :(

We paid $20 for a bottle of 200 tablets 2 years ago; the same bottle right now is $39 IF you want to wait 6 weeks to receive it.

They just had another 6.1 aftershock too.

[Linus]

I think I'm going to try and see if we can get some at local stores today..

[Julie]

Question for those of us allergic to Iodine. (Anaphylactic Shock)

Is Iodide the same component as Iodine. I am not talking about the Iodine they put on your body during surgery.

The Iodine they inject you with during Nuclear Medicine Testing.

My work is in Japan and I know I am going to be going... Not sure when.

[Dude]

http://www.vitanherbs.com

10.95 for 120

express delivery? hell to the yes

[wolfbittenpoet]

Question for those of us allergic to Iodine. (Anaphylactic Shock)

Is Iodide the same component as Iodine. I am not talking about the Iodine they put on your body during surgery.

The Iodine they inject you with during Nuclear Medicine Testing.

My work is in Japan and I know I am going to be going... Not sure when.

Check with doc or CDC. I am sure if your work is a necessary thing they will have some solution.

[Julie]

What about those in Australia?
They are so close to the Island of Japan - Much closer than the United States.

[Julie]

Check with doc or CDC. I am sure if your work is a necessary thing they will have some solution.

Thanks and I did (should have thought of that).
It is the same molecular component.
Take LOTS of Steroids (prednisone) with Iodide - That I knew, as I have had multiple nuclear testing done.

So, NO - there is no replacement. Those of us who are allergic to Iodine are allergic to the Iodide - DON'T TAKE IF YOU ARE.

Right now, there is no alternative. I am going to call a friend who knows a Chinese herbalist to find out.

[wolfbittenpoet]

Another thing that can be done though it does nothing about inhaled radiation are lead lined throat shields.

[dreadgeek]

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

Thank you! My NBC training is 25 years out of date (when did I get so OLD?) so I appreciate this.

One thing I want to add. The Iodine isotope to be concerned about can *only* get to your thyroid through ingestion of food stuffs that are contaminated--in specific this means do NOT drink the milk of cows exposed to the radiation. So IF we have a truly worst-case scenario--and it is unclear, at the time of this writing, whether we will--one would probably want to stock up on milk products but I would *not* suggest a run on your local Fred Meyers or Safeway at this point.

A whole cascade of things would still have to go wrong before we started to see levels of radiation, wafting across the Pacific, that would give us concern. At present, that cascade has not happened--which is not to say it won't.

Medusa, I'm still trying to find some numbers that I can crunch to answer your question about whether we can predict how hot this plant is going to get. Even IF one of the cores melts down, that still doesn't mean that the absolute worst is going to happen because the floor of the containment vessel is designed to--hopefully--contain the radioactive slag.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

Actually, for the most part the radiation would be about the same. In oversimplifying things yesterday, I made one minor error which I'll now correct.

EARLY nuclear weapons were fission weapons--which split atoms into two (relatively easy) while later (H-bomb) weapons use fission which takes two smaller atoms and fuses them into one (a hydrogen bomb can be thought of as creating a very small, low-mass star in an instant). The actual radioactivity release is because a fast-fission reaction is used to compress a critical mass into a very small space, causing fusion to occur. But the bulk of the radiation is coming from the fission explosion, not the fusion explosion. (Fission is a 'dirty' process, fusion is a 'clean' process)

So for our purposes here, we can treat the radiation coming from a power plant to be the same kind of radiation coming from a bomb because the source is pretty much the same. I made this point yesterday and was correct but for the wrong reasons. :(

For the most part, unless there is a catastrophic release (and by this I mean the molten core eats through the containment vessel floor, goes into the ground and hits the water table at which point there would be an explosive release of steam which would blow a lot of dirt into the air), we will not see a lot of very hot material. The steam being released is not going to make it the distance across the Pacific to the West coast of the US without being severely diluted.

Also keep in mind that there is no radiation being released that you are not already exposed to in the course of a year. You aren't exposed to the isotopes--and this is why we should hope that there is no explosive release of steam caused by the slag hitting the water table--without a particulate material to adhere to because the isotopes are rather heavy and wouldn't travel very far from the site on their own. Everyone freaks out with the word radiation--and it's a scary word but this is important to keep in mind--

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia. ;)

Thanks for this info.

[dreadgeek]

So, I've subscribed to a couple of IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) news feeds for the duration of this event. I will post them here so there is a clearinghouse of the most recent information so as it becomes available, I'll try to stay on top of it and make sure that it gets here.

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 14:10 UTC)

The IAEA Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) continues to monitor the status of the nuclear power plants in Japan that were affected by the devastating earthquake and consequent tsunami.

All units at the Fukushima Daini, Onagawa, and Tokai nuclear power plants are in a safe and stable condition (i.e. cold shutdown).

The IAEA remains concerned over the status of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, where sea water injections to cool the reactors in Units 1, 2 and 3 are continuing. Attempts to return power to the entire Daiichi site are also continuing.

After explosions at both Units 1 and 3, the primary containment vessels of both Units are reported to be intact. However, the explosion that occurred at 04:25 UTC on 14 March at the Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2 may have affected the integrity of its primary containment vessel. All three explosions were due to an accumulation of hydrogen gas.

A fire at Unit 4 occurred on 14 March 23:54 UTC and lasted two hours. The IAEA is seeking clarification on the nature and consequences of the fire.

The IAEA continues to seek details about the status of all workers, reactors and spent fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

An evacuation of the population from the 20-kilometre zone around Fukushima Daiichi is in effect. The Japanese have advised that people within a 30-km radius shall take shelter indoors. Iodine tablets have been distributed to evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.

A 30-kilometre no-fly zone has been established around the Daiichi plant. Normal civil aviation beyond this zone remains uninterrupted. The Japan Coast Guard established evacuation warnings within 10 kilometres of Fukushima Daiichi and 3 kilometres of Fukushima Daini.

The IAEA and several other UN organizations held a meeting at 11:00 UTC today to discuss recent developments and coordinate activities related to consequences of the earthquake and tsunami. The meeting was called under the framework of the Joint Radiation Emergency Management Plan of the International Organizations, and this group expects to work closely together in the days ahead.

[Linus]

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia. ;)

Thanks for this info.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110314/radiation-health-effects-110314/

[Medusa]

You know, AJ, I was thinking about what you said about the people who are working at these plants while others evacuate. They really are heroes.

I read an article on Sunday that talked about how the "control room" for the first reactor had reached 200 degrees. I wasn't clear on what they mean by 'control room', if it is a room with lots of computers and people punching buttons (although I can't imagine a computer being functional at that heat) or if it's a different type of control room that is more mechanical.

Either way, it made me wonder about what conditions these people must be working in and how exhausted they must be. Definitely thinking of these folks today as they work diligently and possibly expose themselves to intense radiation in order to try to help all of us.

[suebee]

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories/20110314/radiation-health-effects-110314/

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

[Linus]

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

I checked Health Canada but they didn't have any statement. And neither does BC Health:

http://www.gov.bc.ca/health/

[Medusa]

:|:|:|



http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear/

[Linus]

I have a question: would the potassium iodide be helpful for dogs and cats?

[Medusa]

I found this:

http://www.mbah.state.ms.us/emergency_programs/ki_vets.htm


Also called my vet and she said that as long as the pups don't have an iodine allergy or sensitivity, they should be fine dosed as a child (and added that she was going to need to research this further because she doesn't have anything "official" on this but that she had received a couple of calls about it since Sunday).


edited to add: child dosages would be based on the animal's weight and she is guestimating that 20mg would be plenty for a cat and that it would go up from there but she wants to confer with another vet before telling me anything "on the record".

Anyone have a vet they can ask too? Im curious what the consensus is?

[Andrew, Jr.]

I have been watching the news on Japan. I am not understanding what is going to happen to the outter core if it totally comes down or falls apart. It is already damaged.

I am thinking about the long term effects of radiation on people and animals. Harmful just isn't answering my question. The ripple effect of this crisis is going to last generations if you ask me.

[dreadgeek]

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 20:35 UTC)
The Japanese government today requested assistance from the IAEA in the areas of environmental monitoring and the effects of radiation on human health, asking for IAEA teams of experts to be sent to Japan to assist local experts. Preparations for these missions are currently under way.

The missions will draw on IAEA resources and may also possibly involve Response and Assistance Network (RANET) and Member States' capabilities.

This development follows the IAEA's offer to Japan of its "Good Offices" - i.e. making available the Agency's direct support and coordination of international assistance.

RANET is a network of resources made available by IAEA Member States that can be offered in the event of a radiation incident or emergency. Coordination of RANET is done by the IAEA within the framework of the Convention on Assistance in the Case of a Nuclear Accident or Radiological Emergency.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

[dreadgeek]

I have been watching the news on Japan. I am not understanding what is going to happen to the outter core if it totally comes down or falls apart. It is already damaged.

I am thinking about the long term effects of radiation on people and animals. Harmful just isn't answering my question. The ripple effect of this crisis is going to last generations if you ask me.


Andrew:

I will do my best to explain to the limit of my own understanding.

IF the worst of all possible scenarios were to happen and one or more reactors experienced a catastrophic meltdown of the entire pile and IF it then melted through the primary containment vessel AND the outer containment vessel and IF it then melted into the earth and had enough energy to keep melting material until it reached the water table THEN there could be an explosive release of steam and what would then be highly radioactive dirt into the environment. But notice that there are a lot of conditionals before it gets there. A lot of things would have to go wrong for things to get that bad.

However, that is vanishingly unlikely while still having a probability that is larger than 0 (where 0 means that there's no chance of it happening and 1 means that it is certain to happen).

As I understand it, right now NONE of the reactors are undergoing active fission. This is good. That means that all they have to do is keep pumping water into the cores, keeping them submerged, until such time as the decay heat reaches a manageable level. Think about the inside of the core like you would either fireworks (the kind you buy from the Boy Scouts) or a hot pan. When I was a kid and we would do fireworks on the 4th of July, my job was to fill up a bucket or washtub with water. My dad would light the fireworks, they'd burn, we'd dunk them in water and the next day pour the water out and then dispose of the fireworks. So the reactor is the firework, the sea water represents the bucket of water. Even after the fuel rods are pulled from the core (meaning they are no longer undergoing fission) there is residual heat--this is called the decay heat. That's why the cores have to be covered by water until the rods and the core cool down.

The fires (and as I was writing this another fire broke out) are actually happening in a storage area for spent fuel rods. The problem is that the area around this pool is now too hot (radioactively, not thermally) for workers to approach to put water in to fill the pools to keep the spent fuel rods (which are in cases) from becoming uncovered. This is where I wish we had more sophisticated robotics.


Cheers
Aj

[Martina]

i read they were considering using heliocopters to drop water into the pool.

[dreadgeek]

i read they were considering using heliocopters to drop water into the pool.

I'd read that but now I'm hearing they are rethinking that.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Andrew:

I will do my best to explain to the limit of my own understanding.

IF the worst of all possible scenarios were to happen and one or more reactors experienced a catastrophic meltdown of the entire pile and IF it then melted through the primary containment vessel AND the outer containment vessel and IF it then melted into the earth and had enough energy to keep melting material until it reached the water table THEN there could be an explosive release of steam and what would then be highly radioactive dirt into the environment. But notice that there are a lot of conditionals before it gets there. A lot of things would have to go wrong for things to get that bad.

However, that is vanishingly unlikely while still having a probability that is larger than 0 (where 0 means that there's no chance of it happening and 1 means that it is certain to happen).

As I understand it, right now NONE of the reactors are undergoing active fission. This is good. That means that all they have to do is keep pumping water into the cores, keeping them submerged, until such time as the decay heat reaches a manageable level. Think about the inside of the core like you would either fireworks (the kind you buy from the Boy Scouts) or a hot pan. When I was a kid and we would do fireworks on the 4th of July, my job was to fill up a bucket or washtub with water. My dad would light the fireworks, they'd burn, we'd dunk them in water and the next day pour the water out and then dispose of the fireworks. So the reactor is the firework, the sea water represents the bucket of water. Even after the fuel rods are pulled from the core (meaning they are no longer undergoing fission) there is residual heat--this is called the decay heat. That's why the cores have to be covered by water until the rods and the core cool down.

The fires (and as I was writing this another fire broke out) are actually happening in a storage area for spent fuel rods. The problem is that the area around this pool is now too hot (radioactively, not thermally) for workers to approach to put water in to fill the pools to keep the spent fuel rods (which are in cases) from becoming uncovered. This is where I wish we had more sophisticated robotics.


Cheers
Aj

Yes, I have to say that I was quite intrigued with the robotic capabilities used to deal with the Gulf deep water oil spill. Amazing, but a very different set of variable.

[Andrew, Jr.]

AJ,

Thank you for explaining this to me. I greatly appreciate it. :hangloose:

I am on information overload with the constant news. I am taking time off tomorrow to give myself a break. Tonight on ABC News with Diane Sawyer I saw a dead dog, and then she showed the devistation all over Japan from different perspectives. It is really the same destruction. So much suffering.

[Miss Scarlett]

From NPR:

Fukushima, Three Mile Island, Chernobyl: Putting It All In Perspective
by NPR Staff

The situation at Japan's Fukushima Daiichi facility is prompting many comparisons to the two prior crises that have become cultural touchstones for what can go wrong at a nuclear power plant: Three Mile Island and Chernobyl.

See how the disasters compare.

Three Mile Island
Date: March 28, 1979
Place: Near Harrisburg, Pa.

Problem -A failure involving the water pumps allowed pressure to build up inside the reactor core; in response, a relief valve automatically opened. But it failed to close again — and cooling water escaped the reactor. Meanwhile, operators at the plant didn't get the signal that the valve was still open.

What Happened To The Core -The nuclear fuel rods inside the reactor experienced a partial meltdown — meaning some of them overheated and melted. However, the radioactive material never escaped the containment vessel.

Exposure-Experts say the resulting radiation exposure was never enough to cause a detectable health effect in the general population.


Chernobyl
Date: April 26, 1986
Place: About 80 miles north of Kiev, Ukraine

Problem - Operators were performing a test to see how the reactor would fare in case of electrical failure, when a design flaw in the reactor caused a dramatic power surge.

What Happened To The Core - The core hadn’t been shut down prior to the test. The power surge triggered events that sent the nuclear reaction out of control — causing two explosions. The reactor was not surrounded by a containment structure, so the explosions and the subsequent fire sent a giant plume of radioactive material into the atmosphere and was spread out by the winds.

Exposure -At least 5 percent of the radioactive reactor core was released into the atmosphere. Two Chernobyl plant workers died on the night of the accident, and 28 more people died within a few weeks from radiation poisoning. Long term, several thousand more people were put at risk for cancer.


Fukushima Daiichi
Date: March 11
Place: Fukushima prefecture, about 150 miles north of Tokyo on Japan's northeastern coast

Problem - Emergency cooling systems at the plant started to fail after a massive quake and tsunami knocked out electricity at the facility. Workers have experienced numerous problems maintaining water levels in the three reactors that were in operation when the quake struck. Water is needed to keep the nuclear fuel rods inside the core from overheating. Officials suspect rods have melted in multiple reactors.

What Happened To The Core - So far, four of the six nuclear reactors are in trouble. In Unit Nos. 1 and 3, explosions occurred from a buildup of hydrogen gas. These were not nuclear blasts. Experts suspect the nuclear rods inside these two reactors have started to melt but have not breached the containment vessel, which is designed to keep radioactive material from escaping.

Unit No. 2 poses a bigger threat: An explosion may have caused a breach in the containment vessel, which may allow radioactive steam or water to escape

Unit No. 4, which had been closed down for maintenance before the quake hit, caught on fire. The fire occurred near a pond where spent fuel rods were left to cool off. Officials believe the fire caused a radiation leak near the pool. The challenge is keeping the rods — which are still hot — covered in water so that they don’t overheat and release more radioactive material.

Exposure - Not yet known.

Source: USNRC, World Nuclear Association

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/15/134568383/japan-three-mile-island-chernobyl-putting-it-all-in-perspective

[Medusa]

There's just been a report that the last 50 workers have been released :|

Which means that nobody is manning the reactors. :|

Which means they've given up :|

I hope like hell that is just a bad translation. They are clarifying now.

[Medusa]

Oh shit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/japan-spokesman-says-workers-unable-to-continue-efforts-at-nuclear-plant-due-to-radiation-risk/2011/03/15/ABHojoa_story.html

[Diva]

Whoa......................

[Rockinonahigh]

I know very little about reactors,ive read some post but im a simple minded person who just deals with life as it comes.I just hope that when all this is over ...whenever its over,we all learn a lesson on how to protect ourselves and the world we live on from these things when they happen.My heart goes out to all off the people of Japan as well as many others who will be effected by these circumstances.Who ever our highr power may be,may he or she look upon us with benevolent eyes.

[socialjustice_fsu]

Where is Dreadgeek? I want to know more and who better than to turn to for laymen's terms than our own scientist?

[Linus]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/03/15/japan-residents-nuclear-worries.html

[Medusa]

I bet she'll be in shortly. :)


From what I understand, the radiation has become too high for the workers to continue (based on the most recent preliminary reports). I keep thinking that these poor people probably haven't slept in days. I noticed that there was already a story referring to them as the "Fukushima 50"

[Wryly]

U.S.S. Ronald Reagan received almost a month’s worth of radiation in just one hour.
(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1366055/Japan-earthquake-tsunami-America-nuclear-alert-Fukushima-explosion.html)

[dreadgeek]

There's just been a report that the last 50 workers have been released :|

Which means that nobody is manning the reactors. :|

Which means they've given up :|

I hope like hell that is just a bad translation. They are clarifying now.

Actually it appears that they were off-site for 45 minutes. There was a spike in radiation, they do not know why it spiked. I'm trying to get the latest update from the IAEA but right now, their traffic is so high that I can't get the page to load!

I will update as I get more information.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Here's the latest from the IAEA.

Japan Earthquake Update (16 March 2011, 03:55 UTC)
Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that a fire in the reactor building of unit 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant was visually observed at 20:45 UTC of 15 March. As of 21:15 UTC of the same day, the fire could no longer be observed.

Fire of 14 March

As previously reported, at 23:54 UTC of 14 March a fire had occurred at unit 4. The fire lasted around two hours and was confirmed to be extinguished at 02:00 UTC of 15 March.

Water level in unit 5

Japanese authorities have also informed the IAEA that at 12:00 UTC of 15 March the water level in unit 5 had decreased to 201 cm above the top of the fuel. This was a 40 cm decrease since 07:00 UTC of 15 March. Officials at the plant were planning to use an operational diesel generator in unit 6 to supply water to unit 5.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.


Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 22:30 UTC)
Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that the evacuation of the population from the 20-kilometre zone around Fukushima Daiichi has been successfully completed.

The Japanese authorities have also advised that people within a 30-km radius to take cover indoors. Iodine tablets have been distributed to evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.

[suebee]

A new quake hit Japan about 15 minutes ago. Enough to make buildings sway in Tokyo. From the BBC: "The Japan Meteorological Agency said a change in sea levels was possible, the AFP reports."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698

[Diva]

So there's a lot of talk about radiation....and thyroid issues....and iodine tablets......


But what about the rest of one's body? How does radiation affect THAT?

Just curious.....cuz I'm thinking that thyroid cancer may just be a drop in the bucket compared to other things which high doses of radiation can jerk around!

[AtLast]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

Continuing problems raise fears of greater radiation threat By the CNN Wire Staff
March 16, 2011 12:34 a.m. EDT

Still, many conflicting reports. Verification is difficult and it appears the Japanese government is quite angry with the utility company that runs this plant in terms of not reporting the full story with on-going problems and to the Japanese government. So much is going on there all at one time.

The 50 remaining workers have been evacuated from the plant due to radiation levels (gamma level). It sounds like this is a temporary measure.

[Mtn]

I heard one talking head say that pregnant women and young children should be out of the area, as they are most vulnerable to radiation, I hope that already happened, before the talking head said it. In the late 80's early 90's I worked at a preschool that had several families that had "survived" Chernobyl, the long lasting effects, the future health issues, and in fact deaths makes one question the term "survival". I just keep praying.

[AtLast]

I heard one talking head say that pregnant women and young children should be out of the area, as they are most vulnerable to radiation, I hope that already happened, before the talking head said it. In the late 80's early 90's I worked at a preschool that had several families that had "survived" Chernobyl, the long lasting effects, the future health issues, and in fact deaths makes one question the term "survival". I just keep praying.

I agree with your statement about quality of life in terms of survival from radiation exposure. Something to consider with future building of nuclear power plants worldwide. Frankly, I fear the present and future lack of R&D funds in the US (both public and private- Wall St investors don't like the risk in nuclear power). What is learned by this situation can't be corrected unless research is supported further.

There are so many variables involved in designing and building, then effectively running these plants. Yet, the magnitude of the natural disasters hitting those plants and how they rendered even the battery back up for cooling the cores inoperable demonstrates vulnerability even with the best and the brightest working in this field. And politics do get in the mix that I think blocks the real experts in these fields to build the best and safest plants possible.

Sitting with an elderly Japanese neighbor this past few days and hearing about what radiation posining does to people has been quite sobering. Her initial responses to what her home country is going through, as well as the loss of family still living there was one thing- the shift in her emotional response while hearing of the radiation threat is something else.

The new photos of the damage to the plants in Japan make me want the 50 workers that left for a short time to not be there at all.

Here is a link to a Mayo site about radiation posining and symptoms.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/radiation-sickness/DS00432/DSECTION=symptoms

[Glenn]

ATL;They'll be back. The Japanese are very honorable and proud. They would die for family and friends. Their behavior through all this is exemplary. I have not heard of any major looting, etc. We should learn this from them if this happens to us.

[Diva]

I haven't heard of any looting at all.....one of the things that reporters have noted time and again has been the patience of the Japanese.....and there was a report of a couple in their 70's.....getting their house ~ which still stood ~ back in order after it was flooded. Their faces were happy, they worked as they spoke with reporters. They wanted to get their house cleaned up quickly, so they could go and help others.

I don't wonder at all if this same thing happened here in the US, there are many who would go for the 'something for nothing' plan.

I honor and admire the Japanese people.

[Medusa]

I had to actually go in to the office today rather than working from home and immediately felt the withdrawals from not being able to obsessively watch CNN for updates on the nuclear situation there. Found a livestream directly from NHK on Ustream.

Link for those interested:

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

[Julie]

I received an email which was sent from one of our Japanese Members who is in Sendai.
I can't share the entire email (it would be wrong). BUT...

Here are a few of her words. We can learn so much from the Japanese. I wonder if this happened in America, if we would remain so loving and civilized.

"Utterly amazingly where I am there has been no looting, no pushing in lines. People leave their front door open, as it is safer when an earthquake strikes. People keep saying, "Oh, this is how it used to be in the old days when everyone helped one another."

"And the Japanese themselves are so wonderful. I come back to my shack to check on it each day, now to send this e-mail since the electricity is on, and I find food and water left in my entranceway. I have no idea from whom, but it is there. Old men in green hats go from door to door checking to see if everyone is OK. People talk to complete strangers asking if theyneed help. I see no signs of fear. Resignation, yes, but fear or panic, no."

It just fills me with such respect and admiration for a people who are faced with their mortality, every waking moment during this time.

May Peace be in Japan
May Peace Prevail On Earth

[dreadgeek]

So there's a lot of talk about radiation....and thyroid issues....and iodine tablets......


But what about the rest of one's body? How does radiation affect THAT?

Just curious.....cuz I'm thinking that thyroid cancer may just be a drop in the bucket compared to other things which high doses of radiation can jerk around!





Diva:

Actually thyroid cancer IS just a drop in the bucket. There are a lot of things that can go wrong. I will try to explain why radiation is dangerous.

So, the first thing to keep in mind is that radiation is just another name for 'light'. What we call visible light is just a middle part of the spectrum of electromagnetic frequencies (which I'll call EMF from here out). The spectrum runs from (in ascending order of frequency) radio, microwave, infrared, visible, ultraviolet, X-ray and gamma ray. As you move up the scale the wavelength gets shorter and the energy of the photon (and ALL of these are just photons at different levels of energy) increases. Radio waves are kind of leisurely, poking along photons, X-ray and gamma rays are very fast-paced, energetic photons. Because your body is made of atoms, the higher energy frequencies can actually move with enough energy that they can penetrate your body and begin disrupting the atoms.

What happens is that a fast moving photon can strip an electron from an atom, thus changing the atom into an ion. It's still an atom but while most atoms in your body have a neutral charge because there's an equal number of protons (positive charge) and electrons (negative charge) an ion has a net positive or negative charge because there are more of one than the other. (Obviously, if there are more protons then the charge is positive and if more electrons then negative.) This can cause all kinds of problems because the atoms become chemically reactive in ways they may not be.

Radiation effects living cells so it causes the following kinds of problems*:


1) Cells undergo DNA damage, cannot repair the damage, and undergo cell death.
2) Cells undergo DNA damage, cannot repair the damage, don't *die* and the damage is then passed on to further cell divisions. This can lead to cancers of various sorts.
3) Cells undergo DNA damage, cannot repair it, don't die, errors of either replication or transcription are passed on leading to cancers or mimicking the effects of aging.

Different types of radioactive isotopes** have different characteristics. So, for instance, Strontium attacks bones causing problems with the marrow. Other isotopes attack the internal organs, other attack the skin, etc. If these isotopes get inside the body they can wreak havoc. The really nasty stuff (Cesium, Plutonium, Strontium) also have very long half-lives (the amount of time it takes for a given quantity of an element to lose half its mass) so they tend to *stay* in the body.

This all sounds very grim and it is. However, the news is not ALL bad. There are three types of radioactive particles that concern us--alpha, beta and gamma particles. Alpha and beta particles can be stopped by ordinary substances--like clothing. Gamma particles, on the other hand, are SO energetic that protection needs to be from a material with a high atomic number*** like lead. Unfortunately, lead is inconveniently heavy.

* This is not exhaustive
** (an isotope is when an atom has the same number of protons but differing numbers of neutrons which lead to slightly lighter or heavier versions of the atom in question)
*** Every atom has an atomic number equal to the number of protons in the nucleus. Each element on the periodic table has a unique number of protons. The isotopes of each element is because of the differing number of neutrons in the nucleus of the atom. The higher the atomic number, the heavier the element. Lead has 82 protons, for instance, carbon (which makes up most of your body) has 6 protons so lead is heavier than carbon.

Hopefully this helps.

Cheers
Aj

[Medusa]

Seems normal but still a little unnerving:

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/mar/16/feds-deploy-more-radiation-monitors-in-w/

[AtLast]

Seems normal but still a little unnerving:

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/mar/16/feds-deploy-more-radiation-monitors-in-w/

Here in Bay Area, CA, the local stations have been talking-up our radiation warning systems in place. And of course reminding us of the reactor (Diablo Canyon nuclear power plant) down state a ways "a top" an earthquake fault.

Reality....

The link Aj provided has some new info on the crisis-

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

[dreadgeek]

Seems normal but still a little unnerving:

http://www.vindy.com/news/2011/mar/16/feds-deploy-more-radiation-monitors-in-w/

I wouldn't make too much of this. It's a precautionary measure. Better to have the radiation detectors in place, debugged, and known to be working BEFORE we might need to have them in place than to scramble at the last minute.

Cheers
Aj

[Corkey]

I would assume that they also need a baseline for normal radiation counts for the area.

[AtLast]

In all of this, I have to look to a "double edged sword" concerning radiation- one (what we fear most for people being exposed in Japan) that causes disease- and the other, wherein radiation is part of the treatment of many cancers.

Radiation therapy, including radioactive iodine therapy has a positive record in the treatment of thyroid cancer. My son was diagnosed with thyroid cancer 2 years ago and it was this very method that is responsible for his cancer free status.

I so hope that today is more of a success for those working at the Japan plants. They are in danger but they are also a part of a larger community of science and technology that does an awful lot of good!

[Medusa]

There is a conversation going on in the next cube and someone is actually considering wrapping their entire house in aluminum foil to "keep from getting fried".


:|

[dreadgeek]

There is a conversation going on in the next cube and someone is actually considering wrapping their entire house in aluminum foil to "keep from getting fried".


:|

Yeah. Tell them that won't help. Aluminum is practically transparent to gamma rays.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

There is a conversation going on in the next cube and someone is actually considering wrapping their entire house in aluminum foil to "keep from getting fried".


:|

And ...... http://www.ktvb.com/news/health/Japans-nuclear-crisis-sparks-run-on-iodine-pills-along-West-Coast-118110029.html

[wolfbittenpoet]

So they are planning to cook like tin foil dinners or bake potatoes. This is why we need more science in our schools.

[dreadgeek]

I wanted to add one more thing to the post on radiation.

So, when dealing with radioactivity there's a couple of things to keep in mind:

What kind of radioactive particles are we talking about. (How energetic are they.)
What kind of protection you have.
How long you're exposed.
How often you're exposed.
How intense is the radiation.

So, we spend most of our days bathed in radiation we can see--namely visible light. Visible light, however, is not particularly energetic so it doesn't really hurt us provided the source isn't too strong (which will still hurt your eyes). Radio, infrared and microwaves are even *less* energetic than visible light. We live our lives bathed in those sources of radiation to know real ill effect.* You wouldn't want to be IN a microwave or stand right on top of a very powerful microwave source and, say, camp out there but your cell phone or your radio won't cook you.

Above the visible spectrum, the photons get more and more energetic.** More energetic photons have more opportunity to cause damage and this is why intensity, type of radiation and length of exposure as well as how often you are exposed becomes relevant. DNA has a *remarkable* ability to repair itself. In fact, part of why we are SO resilient as living things is because DNA, by its very nature, has the ability to recreate itself.*** However, even DNA can get overwhelmed. If you are in a, say, field of high gamma radiation for hours at time your body is simply going to have SO many damaged strands of DNA that it will not be able to repair itself effectively. Thus you start to get things like cancers.



* I know people think that cell phones cause problems but they don't. Cell phones are operating in the microwave band and before you think "hey, we use microwaves to cook things!" what is *actually* happening is that the microwaves cause the molecules in the food stuff (like fats and water, both of which are dipole molecules). Think of dipole molecules like little molecular magnets, one side is negative and the other positive. In the presence of an oscillating magnetic field (like microwaves) they will rotate to align themselves with the field. This rotation creates heat and the molecules bump into other molecules which causes them to move. Temperature is the average kinetic energy of molecules or atoms in a substance so the more the molecules rotate, the higher the temperature.

** From radio to gamma rays keep in mind that we are talking abou the same stuff. Gamma rays aren't one thing and radio waves another. Pump enough energy into a radio wave (i.e. increase its frequency) and it will not act 'like' a gamma ray it will *be* a gamma. These are all just photons at different energies. Another word for talking about EMF waves is frequency. To get a sort of visceral feeling for what is happening, use a very familiar experience--hearing a siren. As you get closer to a sound source the pitch rises and the noise level increases. As the sound source retreats the pitch falls and the noise level decreases. The waves get shorter on the approach and longer as you and the siren pull away from one another. Now, what is happening with light is *not* that as you move toward a light source the waves get shorter. Rather, gamma rays are shorter (higher frequency) than radio waves (lower frequency). A low wavelength--literally the length between the peaks and troughs of the wave--in water is less disruptive than a high wavelength. Gamma rays are more disruptive because their higher energy means they are more likely to react with some atom in your body. Visible light rays are just gamma rays slowed down and mellowed out or radio waves with a Type A personality.

*** Part of why DNA is so good at self-repair is because of its very structure. DNA is made up of four amino acids making four 'letters'--ATGC. Now, the interesting thing about DNA is that if one point on the strand is A then its opposite will be T, if one strand is G the opposite will be C. Not might, not sometimes, but IS. This means that as long as one side of the strand is correct, the other side of the strand will be correct. Genes are simply patterns of repetition of those four letters. Another type of damage that radiation can cause are replication errors. The difference between, say, Huntington's chorea and not is, if memory serves, less than a dozen repeats.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

So, I know that a number of folks posted about getting Potassium Iodide and expressing some concern about it being unavailable. I'd like to put your minds at ease.

Potassium iodide works by preventing the thyroid gland from absorbing radioactive iodine-131, an isotope (kind) of iodine produced in nuclear fission reactions. The thyroid will only take up so much iodine, and Potassium iodide is treated by the body as iodine. So, if you saturate the thyroid with Potassium iodide it won't take up (absorb) the radioactive material.

Now, should you be taking it right now? No. Will it hurt you? Probably not*, Potassium iodide has other uses. But at this point, there is simply no need for you to be taking it--at least not if you aren't already taking it. Firstly, the radiation near the nuclear plant has not and, at this point, is not likely to reach the West coast of the United States. As I said last night, in order for there to be a serious risk of a radiation risk on the West coast all of the worst possible things would have to happen in sequence. While it is very scary, it is simply not that big a threat to the continental United States.

You aren't doing yourself any harm--at least none that I could find--but you aren't doing anything helpful either.

*If you are allergic to iodine you should *not* take potassium iodide.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Japanese Earthquake Update (17 March 01:15 UTC)
Injuries or Contamination at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant

Based on a press release from the Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary dated 16 March 2011, the IAEA can confirm the following information about human injuries or contamination at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Please note that this list provides a snapshot of the latest information made available to the IAEA by Japanese authorities. Given the fluid situation at the plant, this information is subject to change.

Injuries

2 TEPCO employees have minor injuries

2 subcontractor employees are injured, one person suffered broken legs and one person whose condition is unknown was transported to the hospital

2 people are missing

2 people were 'suddenly taken ill'

2 TEPCO employees were transported to hospital during the time of donning respiratory protection in the control centre.

4 people (2 TEPCO employees, 2 subcontractor employees) sustained minor injuries due to the explosion at unit 1 on 11 March and were transported to the hospital

11 people (4 TEPCO employees, 3 subcontractor employees and 4 Japanese civil defense workers) were injured due to the explosion at unit 3 on 14 March

Radiological Contamination

17 people (9 TEPCO employees, 8 subcontractor employees) suffered from deposition of radioactive material to their faces, but were not taken to the hospital because of low levels of exposure

One worker suffered from significant exposure during 'vent work,' and was transported to an offsite center

2 policemen who were exposed to radiation were decontaminated

Firemen who were exposed to radiation are under investigation

The IAEA continues to seek information from Japanese authorities about all aspects of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant.

Temperature of Spent Fuel Pools at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant

Spent fuel that has been removed from a nuclear reactor generates intense heat and is typically stored in a water-filled spent fuel pool to cool it and provide protection from its radioactivity. Water in a spent fuel pool is continuously cooled to remove heat produced by spent fuel assemblies. According to IAEA experts, a typical spent fuel pool temperature is kept below 25 ˚C (77 F) under normal operating conditions. The temperature of a spent fuel pool is maintained by constant cooling, which requires a constant power source.

Given the intense heat and radiation that spent fuel assemblies can generate, spent fuel pools must be constantly checked for water level and temperature. If fuel is no longer covered by water or temperatures reach a boiling point, fuel can become exposed and create a risk of radioactive release. The concern about the spent fuel pools at Fukushima Daiichi is that sources of power to cool the pools may have been compromised.

The IAEA can confirm the following information regarding the temperatures of the spent nuclear fuel pools at Units 4, 5 and 6 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant:


Unit 4
14 March, 10:08 UTC: 84 ˚C (183.2 F)
15 March, 10:00 UTC: 84 ˚C (183.2 F)
16 March, 05:00 UTC: no data

Unit 5
14 March, 10:08 UTC: 59.7 ˚C (139.46 F)
15 March, 10:00 UTC: 60.4 ˚C (140.72 F)
16 March, 05:00 UTC: 62.7 ˚C (144.86 F)

Unit 6
14 March, 10:08 UTC: 58.0 ˚C (136.4 F)
15 March, 10:00 UTC: 58.5 ˚C (137.3 F)
16 March, 05:00 UTC: 60.0 ˚C (140 F)
(All conversions to Fahrenheit were done by me, they are not in the original)

The IAEA is continuing to seek further information about the water levels, temperature and condition of all spent fuel pool facilities at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

Cheers
Aj

[Martina]

So they did drop water from a heliocopter. If they can keep them cool till they get that power line up, it sounds like they can avert a total meltdown. At least we can see a scenario that might work now. i find that comforting.

Wild to see the U.S. government basically call the Japanese govt/TEPCO on their lies. But it's public safety, and Japanese officials and corporate folks are notorious for lying to the public.

[AtLast]

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51456.html

Nuclear Regulatory Commission sounds alarm on Japan nuclear crisis

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51456.html#ixzz1GowqOT3G

I don't know what to make of the descrepancies announced today by the NRC. I am feeling that it has got to be damn difficult with all of what is going on in Japan to get all info out. Don't know if this is helpful, either in the middle of this.

Apparently, our military over there are going to do testing to see if what we are hearing from Japan is reliable.

Any thoughts- or other info anyone has come across?

[dreadgeek]

So they did drop water from a heliocopter. If they can keep them cool till they get that power line up, it sounds like they can avert a total meltdown. At least we can see a scenario that might work now. i find that comforting.

Me too. At this point that would be the best case scenario from where we are right now.


Wild to see the U.S. government basically call the Japanese govt/TEPCO on their lies. But it's public safety, and Japanese officials and corporate folks are notorious for lying to the public.

True on both counts. At this point, I think the Japanese government should expand the exclusion zone.


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51456.html

Nuclear Regulatory Commission sounds alarm on Japan nuclear crisis

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51456.html#ixzz1GowqOT3G

I don't know what to make of the descrepancies announced today by the NRC. I am feeling that it has got to be damn difficult with all of what is going on in Japan to get all info out. Don't know if this is helpful, either in the middle of this.

Apparently, our military over there are going to do testing to see if what we are hearing from Japan is reliable.

Any thoughts- or other info anyone has come across?

Yes, I've heard this and at present, I just don't know what to think. I'm prone to believe the NRC and the IAEA over the Japanese government for one simple reason; neither the NRC or the IAEA gain anything from making things look worse than they already are and *no one* wants a panic. The Japanese government and TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Co.) have *every* reason to lie. They shouldn't lie but they certainly have a motivation to do so. The NRC is an objective observer in this, even more than the IAEA perhaps.

Tomorrow there will be overflights to assess the radioactivity over and surrounding the site. We'll have a better picture after that happens.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

This is the latest information coming out of IAEA. I will continue to post these briefings as the events unfold until such time as the crisis passes.

Japan Earthquake Update (17 March 2011 11:05 UTC)

Based on a press release from the Japanese Chief Cabinet Secretary dated 17 March 2011 04:00 UTC, the IAEA can confirm that the Japanese military carried out four helicopter water droppings over the building of reactor unit 3 of the Fukushima Daichi nuclear power plant.

According to the press release, the droppings took place between 00:48 UTC and 01:00 UTC.



Cheers
Aj

[Camo Eagle]

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia. ;)

Thanks for this info.

I would figure that all areas in and around the ones I named would be affected.
Sorry I didnt mention all the other countries, as I know many are in the path.
Since my info came from a US Military mtg., we were only discussing the plan for US cities.
Since I was quoting a source, I stuck with repeating the facts, and not adding my opinion.


Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

When I posted my info I clearly stated it would "change daily" as the events unfolded. My info was also clearly stated as "in event of a med/lg radiation release". That hasnt happened yet. It wasnt ref to the the current amts in the air.
Even if I was ref to those amts, I wouldnt find my info any more or less "contradictory" than any other post here.:|

As we've all no doubt seen, just about every story you hear from the news is a CONTRADICTION.
A lot of it is because at this stage of the event, things are still evolving and changing. Then you add the movements of tide & winds, and the variables become many. NO ONE will EVER be able to give you a 100% def answer.

The very next days info mtg. had a different dispersion pattern which included Hawaii.
They also were waiting to get the reports from the experts at NRC folks that were still enroute, not the news channels.

My info came from a Military mtg., that was using a number of "professional" sources & experts, not NEWS stations. Of course we all know that the "news" is always 100% accurate, and they would never be wrong. LOL
I would suggest for the best info, go to the sites of the experts, and not base everything on news accounts.



AJ,

Thank you for explaining this to me. I greatly appreciate it. :hangloose:

I am on information overload with the constant news. I am taking time off tomorrow to give myself a break.


Good Idea. Its true that we do get info overloaded after each event. And every station & grp tells it a different way. These news people are less about informing, and more about ratings just like any other TV show. During Katrina I actually watched CNN stage a backdrop to report from. WTH? Like it wasnt already bad enough?

I think we should try to keep some perspective. Perhaps when it gets too much, try prayer, meditation, or whatever your path uses. Japan and her people could sure use it.

I haven't heard of any looting at all.....one of the things that reporters have noted time and again has been the patience of the Japanese.....and there was a report of a couple in their 70's.....getting their house ~ which still stood ~ back in order after it was flooded. Their faces were happy, they worked as they spoke with reporters. They wanted to get their house cleaned up quickly, so they could go and help others.

I don't wonder at all if this same thing happened here in the US, there are many who would go for the 'something for nothing' plan.

I honor and admire the Japanese people.

Its a lot about the culture they are raised in. They are a peaceful & spiritual people. Not as much of a me, me, me attitude.
It would be a joy to go there and help. Wow, it might even be appreciated.
Unlike getting shot at, cursed, and spit on for trying to help during disasters in the US.

I think we should all keep in mind, that the US has already been through bigger radiation releases than this one.
The releases of the early atom bomb tests, and 3 mile Island, and prob a few that we never even knew about.

[dreadgeek]

According to both the BBC and Reuters TEPCO officials have reported to the IAEA that they are going to connect power up to unit 2 after they are done spraying unit 3. If that is the case that's the first piece of really good news we've had. Power means pumping and pumping means water.

I'll update as I find out more.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

Yes, I've heard this and at present, I just don't know what to think. I'm prone to believe the NRC and the IAEA over the Japanese government for one simple reason; neither the NRC or the IAEA gain anything from making things look worse than they already are and *no one* wants a panic. The Japanese government and TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Co.) have *every* reason to lie. They shouldn't lie but they certainly have a motivation to do so. The NRC is an objective observer in this, even more than the IAEA perhaps.

Tomorrow there will be overflights to assess the radioactivity over and surrounding the site. We'll have a better picture after that happens.

Cheers
Aj



I see. Yes, waiting for over flights. What is just hard about this is conflicting reports, but, given all that is happening at one time, and how fluid this is- makes sense.

And I am thinking that those at the plant sites, are rather busy and trying to get water in any way possible. Getting power back in to some degree is VERY GOOD NEWS!!

The recent photos of damage (containment vessels) at the plants are disturbing. Yet, we don't have any real comparative images, plus viewing them as "lay" people, really.

I know there has been a lot of criticism about evacuations further from the plant- but, Japan is a mess right now. Roads are covered with debris, gas is scarce, mass transit is upended, evacuation centers are full, food and water supplies are stretched. This is a country with a dense population under phenomenal infrastructure stress. People can't just be moved immediately!

Yup.... getting some power to that plant sounds good to me!

[dreadgeek]

Japanese Earthquake Update (17 March 17:55 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that engineers were able to lay an external grid power line cable to unit 2. The operation was completed at 08:30 UTC.

They plan to reconnect power to unit 2 once the spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building is completed.

The spraying of water on the unit 3 reactor building was temporarily stopped at 11:09 UTC (20:09 local time) of 17 March.

The IAEA continues to liaise with the Japanese authorities and is monitoring the situation as it evolves.

[AtLast]

I have been thinking a lot about Aj's statement earlier about robotics (started me thinking about how this could be so useful, if developed in ways to use with getting water in plants during a crisis like this). I found this article today-

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110317/sc_nm/us_quake_japan_robots
Japan a robot power everywhere except at nuclear plant


By Jon Herskovitz Jon Herskovitz – Thu Mar 17, 7:23 am ET
TOKYO (Reuters) – Japan may build robots to play the violin, run marathons and preside over weddings, but it has not deployed any of the machines to help repair its crippled reactors.

While robots are commonplace in the nuclear power industry, with EU engineers building one that can climb walls through radioactive fields, the electric power company running Japan's Fukushima Dai-ichi plant has not deployed any for the nuclear emergency.

Instead, its skeleton team has been given the unenviable and perhaps deadly task of cooling reactors and spent nuclear fuel on their own, only taking breaks to avoid over-exposure.

A science ministry official said a robot used to detect radiation levels is at the site of the accident in Fukushima, north of Tokyo, but nuclear safety agency official Hidehiko Nishiyama said: "We have no reports of any robots being used."

That robot would have come in handy early on Thursday when workers monitoring radiation had to back away from the plant because it was becoming too hot.

While Japan is renowned for its cutting edge technology, it also maintains an anachronistic element in its society that relies on humans for tasks that have given way to automation in many other parts of the world, such as operating elevators and warning motorists of road construction.

In one of Japan's worst nuclear accidents, two workers were killed in September 1999, when workers at a nuclear facility in Tokaimura, northeast of Tokyo, set off an uncontrolled nuclear chain reaction by using buckets to mix nuclear fuel in a lab.

Japan is a world leader in robots, using them to automate the most complicated manufacturing processes and to sift through rubble to look for victims in earthquakes.
Robots were also used after two infamous nuclear disasters -- Three Mile Island and Chernobyl, and will almost certainly be used at Fukushima for work in highly radioactive areas.

Kim Seungho, a nuclear official who engineered robots for South Korea's atomic power plants, said: "You have to design emergency robots for plants when they are being built so they can navigate corridors, steps and close valves."

[Related: What is acute radiation syndrome?]

The Fukushima plant was built in the 1970s, well before robots were able to work on sophisticated tasks.

Robots are in place in many nuclear plants for structured situations such as monitoring pipes and simple maintenance.

Kim, a deputy director in nuclear technology for the Korea Atomic Energy Research Institute, said budget constraints and denial have kept emergency robots out of many plants in his country and around the world.
"Nuclear plant operators don't liked to think about serious situations that are beyond human control," he said by telephone.

(Editing by Jeremy Laurence)

---------------------------
I say get the dame $ out there for robotic R&D in this industry!!

[Martina]

OK this sorta alarmed me although life has taught me not to worry too much about worst case scenarios. Still.

From a New York Times article: (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/world/asia/18spent.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fw orld%2Fasia%2Findex.jsonp)
The 1,479 spent fuel rod assemblies there include 548 that were removed from the reactor only in November and December to prepare the reactor for maintenance, and these may be emitting more heat than the older assemblies in other storage pools.

Even without recirculating water, it should take many days for the water in a storage pool to evaporate, nuclear engineers said. So the rapid evaporation and even boiling of water in the storage pools now is a mystery, raising the question of whether the pools may also be leaking.

Michael Friedlander, a former senior nuclear power plant operator who worked 13 years at three American reactors, said that storage pools typically had a liner of stainless steel three-eighths of an inch thick, and that they rested on reinforced concrete bases. So even if the liner ruptured, “unless the concrete was torn apart, there’s no place for the water to go,” he said.

Mr. Lahey said that much of the water may have sloshed out during the earthquake. Much smaller earthquakes in California have produced heavy water losses from sloshing at storage pools there, partly because the pools are located high in reactor buildings.

“It’s like being at the top of a flagpole, and once you start ground motion, you can easily slosh it,” he said.

When the water in a storage pool disappears, the fuel rods’ uranium continues to heat the rods’ zirconium cladding. This causes the zirconium to oxidize, or rust, and even catch fire. The spent fuel rods have little radioactive iodine, which has a half-life of eight days and has mostly disappeared through radioactive decay once fission stopped when the rods left the reactor cores. But the spent fuel rods are still loaded with cesium and strontium that can start to escape if the fuel rods burn.

One factor that might determine how serious the situation becomes is whether the uranium oxide pellets in the rods stay vertical even if the cladding burns off. This is possible because pellets sometimes become fused together while in the reactor. If the pellets stay standing up, then even with the water and zirconium gone, nuclear fission will not take place, Mr. Albrecht said.

But Tokyo Electric said this week that there was a chance of “recriticality” in the storage pools — that is, the uranium in the fuel rods could resume the fission that previously took place inside the reactor, spewing out radioactive byproducts.

Mr. Albrecht said this was very unlikely, but could happen if the stacks of pellets slumped over and became jumbled together on the floor of the storage pool.

Plant workers would then need to add water with lots of boron because the boron absorbs neutrons and interrupts nuclear chain reactions.

If a lot of fission occurs, which may happen only in an extreme case, the uranium would melt through anything underneath it. If it encounters water as it descends, a steam explosion could then scatter the molten uranium.

At Daiichi, each assembly has either 64 large fuel rods or 81 slightly smaller fuel rods. A typical fuel rod assembly has roughly 380 pounds of uranium.

One big worry for Japanese officials is that Reactor No. 3, the main target of the helicopters and water cannons on Thursday, uses a new and different fuel. It uses mixed oxides, or mox, which contains a mixture of uranium and plutonium, and can produce a more dangerous radioactive plume if scattered by fire or explosions. According to Tokyo Electric, 32 of the 514 fuel rod assemblies in the storage pond at Reactor No. 3 contain mox.

[dreadgeek]

Japanese Earthquake Update (18 March 10:15 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that new INES ratings have been issued for some of the events relating to the nuclear emergency at the Fukushima Daiichi and Daini nuclear power plants.

Japanese authorities have assessed that the core damage at the Fukushima Daiichi 2 and 3 reactor units caused by loss of all cooling function has been rated as 5 on the INES scale.

Japanese authorities have assessed that the loss of cooling and water supplying functions in the spent fuel pool of the unit 4 reactor has been rated as 3.

Japanese authorities have assessed that the loss of cooling functions in the reactor units 1, 2 and 4 of the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant has also been rated as 3. All reactor units at Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant are now in a cold shut down condition.


Cheers
Aj

[Linus]

Japanese Earthquake Update (18 March 10:15 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that new INES ratings have been issued for some of the events relating to the nuclear emergency at the Fukushima Daiichi and Daini nuclear power plants.

Japanese authorities have assessed that the core damage at the Fukushima Daiichi 2 and 3 reactor units caused by loss of all cooling function has been rated as 5 on the INES scale.

Japanese authorities have assessed that the loss of cooling and water supplying functions in the spent fuel pool of the unit 4 reactor has been rated as 3.

Japanese authorities have assessed that the loss of cooling functions in the reactor units 1, 2 and 4 of the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant has also been rated as 3. All reactor units at Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant are now in a cold shut down condition.


Cheers
Aj


Is this a good thing?

[dreadgeek]

Japan Earthquake Update (18 March 2011, 06:10 UTC)

Temperature of Spent Fuel Pools at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Plant - UPDATED

Spent fuel removed from a nuclear reactor is highly radioactive and generates intense heat. Nuclear plant operators typically store this material in pools of water that cool the fuel and shield the radioactivity. Water in a spent fuel pool is continuously cooled to remove heat produced by spent fuel assemblies. According to IAEA experts, a typical spent fuel pool temperature is kept below 25 °C (77 F) under normal operating conditions. The temperature of a spent fuel pool is maintained by constant cooling, which requires a constant power source.

Given the intense heat and radiation that spent fuel assemblies can generate, spent fuel pools must be constantly checked for water level and temperature. If fuel is no longer covered by water or temperatures reach a boiling point, fuel can become exposed and create a risk of radioactive release. The concern about the spent fuel pools at Fukushima Daiichi is that sources of power to cool the pools have been compromised.

Concern about spent fuel storage conditions has led Japanese officials to drop and spray water from helicopters and trucks onto Unit 3 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant (See earlier update).

Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency has reported increasing temperatures in the spent fuel ponds at Units 5 and 6 since 14 March. An emergency diesel generator at Unit 6 is now powering water injection into the ponds at those Units, according to NISA.

The IAEA can confirm the following new information regarding the temperatures of the spent nuclear fuel pools at Units 4, 5 and 6 at Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant:

Unit 4
13 March, 19:08 UTC: 84 °C (183.2 F)
Unit 5
17 March, 03:00 UTC: 64.2 °C (147.56 F)
17 March, 18:00 UTC: 65.5 °C (149.9 F)
Unit 6
17 March, 03:00 UTC: 62.5 °C (144.5 F)
17 March, 18:00 UTC: 62.0 °C (143.6 F)

(All conversions performed by me. Not in original text)

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Is this a good thing?

I was thinking about this on my drive in this morning. My honest answer is that I'm not sure. I think it is improvement while still not being out of the woods.

The reason I think it is improvement was that early in the week, we were looking at six on the scale. The scale that IAEA uses goes like this:


Anomaly
Incident
Serious incident
Accident with local consequences
Accident with wider consequences
Serious accident
Major accident


So, TMI was an accident with consequences for the region the plant was located in but not more widely. (And contra what you might have heard, most epidemiological studies have not demonstrated an increase in incidents of cancer.) Chernobyl was an accident with consequences far beyond the region the plant was located in. So since around Tuesday this event looked like a 6 and possibly a 7, if it's now been classified as a level 5 incident that means things are trending in the right direction. A level 5 is not good but it's a damn sight better than a level 7.

That said, there's all of that spent fuel which is now in a state we don't know about right now. I'm encouraged that there is now serious discussion on the ground of implementing the same solution used at Chernobyl--hit the place with a mixture of sand and boron and then encase the whole thing in concrete. Since the site is absolutely never coming back for power generation encasing all of the damaged reactors in concrete might be the best solution.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Japan Earthquake Update (18 March 2011, 12:25 UTC)

Japanese authorities have informed the IAEA that, prior to the earthquake of 12 March, the entire fuel core of reactor Unit 4 of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant had been unloaded from the reactor and placed in the spent fuel pond located in the reactor's building.

Clarification

Contrary to several news reports, the IAEA to date has NOT received any notification from the Japanese authorities of people sickened by radiation contamination.

In the report of 17 March 01:15 UTC, the cases described were of people who were reported to have had radioactive contamination detected on them when they were monitored.

Cheers
Aj

[AtLast]

I was thinking about this on my drive in this morning. My honest answer is that I'm not sure. I think it is improvement while still not being out of the woods.

The reason I think it is improvement was that early in the week, we were looking at six on the scale. The scale that IAEA uses goes like this:


Anomaly
Incident
Serious incident
Accident with local consequences
Accident with wider consequences
Serious accident
Major accident


So, TMI was an accident with consequences for the region the plant was located in but not more widely. (And contra what you might have heard, most epidemiological studies have not demonstrated an increase in incidents of cancer.) Chernobyl was an accident with consequences far beyond the region the plant was located in. So since around Tuesday this event looked like a 6 and possibly a 7, if it's now been classified as a level 5 incident that means things are trending in the right direction. A level 5 is not good but it's a damn sight better than a level 7.

That said, there's all of that spent fuel which is now in a state we don't know about right now. I'm encouraged that there is now serious discussion on the ground of implementing the same solution used at Chernobyl--hit the place with a mixture of sand and boron and then encase the whole thing in concrete. Since the site is absolutely never coming back for power generation encasing all of the damaged reactors in concrete might be the best solution.

Cheers
Aj

I have been thinking about why something like what was used at Chernobyl hasn't been considered- glad it is. Also, I have to realize just how impacted these folks are in terms of this entire disaster. Things might have been very different if they were dealing with only the power plant situation due to some other problem causing it- without a 9.0 earthquake and a tsunami.

Last night via CNN, emails were read from power plant workers (that are not at the plants now) and their families (of those that are still working)- gut wrenching. These people are risking their lives to try and save the rest of the population.

[AtLast]

About 4 pm , PST- CNN reporting that back-up generators now working. Possibly the result of new power lines finally completed? But, no real run down on which reactor (s), etc. Still, this seems like a positive thing. Hope to see more info.

[dreadgeek]

IAEA Briefing on Fukushima Nuclear Emergency (18 March 2011, 14:00 UTC)

On 18 March 2011, Graham Andrew, Special Adviser to the IAEA Director General on Scientific and Technical Affairs, briefed both Member States and the media on the current status of nuclear safety in Japan. His opening remarks, which he delivered at 14:00 UTC at the IAEA headquarters in Vienna, are provided below:

1. Current Situation

As I reported yesterday, the situation at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plants remains very serious, but there has been no significant worsening since our last briefing.

The situation at the reactors at Units 1, 2 and 3 appears to remain fairly stable.

Seawater was injected yesterday into Unit 2 and white smoke was again observed through the blown-out panels.

At Unit 3, which was the subject of helicopter water drops yesterday, water cannons have been spraying water on the spent fuel pond and seawater was injected into the reactor pressure vessel.

An important safety concern remains the spent fuel pools at Units 3 and 4. Information is lacking on water levels and temperatures at the spent fuel pools.

Efforts are being made to restore electrical power to the whole site. Another positive development is that diesel generators are providing power for cooling for both Units 5 and 6.

No problems have been reported at the common spent fuel pool. The spent fuel in the pool is fully covered by water.

The Japanese authorities today issued new ratings for the incidents on the IAEA International Nuclear and Radiological Event Scale - INES.

They assess core damage at the Fukushima Daiichi 1, 2 and 3 reactor Units, caused by the loss of all cooling function, as 5 on the INES scale.

The situation at Unit 4, where cooling and water supply in the spent fuel pool have been lost, is rated 3 by the Japanese authorities.

At the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant, the loss of cooling functions in Units 1, 2 and 4 has also been rated as 3. All reactor Units at Fukushima Daini are now in a cold shut down condition.

2. Radiation Monitoring

As mentioned yesterday, regular dose rate information is now being received from 47 Japanese cities.

Dose rates in Tokyo and other cities remain far from levels which would require action - in other words they are not dangerous to human health.

First measurements in Tokyo by the Agency's newly arrived radiation monitoring team today showed no indication of Iodine-131 or Caesium-137. A second sampling will be carried out overnight.

3. Agency Activities

As you know, the Director General is in Tokyo, where he met the Prime Minister and other senior government ministers as well as the Vice-President of Tepco. The Director General stressed the importance of providing faster and more detailed information about the situation at the nuclear power plants, including to the international community. He also emphasized the importance of Japan working closely with the international community to resolve the crisis.

There was agreement between the Agency and our Japanese counterparts that the Agency mission would focus on radiation measurements and the identification of Japanese needs for a future environmental monitoring programme.

The Agency has started radiation measurements in Tokyo, as I mentioned, and we will move towards the Fukushima region as soon as possible. The Japanese counterparts confirmed their willingness to further strengthen their cooperation with the Agency and make available measurements made by TEPCO and the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology.

The Director General plans to brief the Agency's Board of Governors on his return from Japan.

Following our request yesterday, the CTBTO informed us today that data from its radionuclide monitoring stations will be made available to the Agency with immediate effect. On behalf of the Director General, I express my thanks to CTBTO Executive Secretary, Mr. Tibor Toth.

The International Civil Aviation Organization, in consultation with the Agency and a number of other international organizations, said today that international flight and maritime operations can continue normally into and out of Japan's major airports and sea ports and there is no medical basis for imposing additional measures to protect passengers. This will be kept under review.

Agency staff continue to work around the clock. We intend to hold another Technical Briefing and press conference at the same time tomorrow, Saturday.

[AtLast]

http://inthearena.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/18/physicist-time-for-chernobyl-option/

Famous Physicist Michio Kaku says it's time to call out the Japanese air force to entomb quake-damaged nuclear reactors.

----

I do not know much about this physicist's reputation or credentials- he has been on a couple of shows the last few days talking about this.

Something that does come to mind is the state of Japan'e infrastructure at this time being in chaos- if they can't even get enough food, water and blankets to most of the hardest hit areas of the quake and tsunami- how can this type of "option" be organized and realized?

[MsTinkerbelly]

According to news reports we have begun to receive radiation in California from japan.

[Glenn]

Faux News-According to the USDA, the readings at a Sacramento monitoring station were far below levels that could pose any health risks.

[Martina]

Questions for our science geek:

So are 5 and 6 getting water circulation by way of generator power? i just read that the generators are configured to do that. i am confused.

i also read that TEPCO said not to be optimistic about the pumps working in 2. Then there is 4, which is leaking. And there is no more likelihood that the pumps will be working in1, 3 and 4.

If they are indeep pumping, does the fact that the pumps are working in 5 and 6 mean anything re the other units? i feel like i am doing a close reading of all this and am still not getting it. Some of it is the science, some of it is the fact that there is so much confusion, and some of it is obviously the rotten communication coming from TEPCO and the Japanese government. Even the journalism is weak. i can't see why there isn't some story laying out the possible scenarios. Is it that people just don't know?

So i finally found mention of what would happen if the cooling systems are not functional. People would have to go in and fix or replace them. Is that doable without it being a suicide mission?

i don't understand why unit 4 has a 4 rating while 1, 2, and 3 have a 5. Is it because 4 was shut down before the earthquake hit so there is no fuel in the reactor? It seems like the fact that the unit 4's pool is leaking poses a more immediate danger. i read that if those fuel pellets fall in a heap, fission could resume and that pure water can accelerate fission. i read that the reason they are concentrating on 2 is the radioactive steam that keeps coming out, but at least that means there is water in there. Clearly the pool at 4 may have next to no water inside it. How long can that go on without stuff happening?

So again this is something i have pieced together -- and i am so annoyed that i keep having to do this -- but the mox in some of the spent fuel rods in unit 3 is not a problem because plutonium is so heavy that it is unlikely to disperse in the air and because it won't aggregate enough to explode?

[Martina]

i just read that a residual-heat removal pump at unit 5 has been started. That is good news.

[AtLast]

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/18/134658874/Update-On-Japans-Nuclear-Reactors

There is a podcast as well as the transcript.

Guests-

David Lochbaum, director, Nuclear Safety Project, Union of Concerned Scientists, Cambridge, Mass.

David J. Brenner, director, Center for Radiological Research, Columbia University, New York, N.Y.

Charles D. Ferguson, president, Federation of American Scientists, Washington, D.C.

Joe Palca, science correspondent, NPR, Washington, D.C.

[Gayla]

Listening to ABC News on the radio on the way home yesterday and the lead story at the top of the hour was, "Radiation to hit the West Coast within 48 hours!"

They had a reporter talking to a radiation expert something or other here in Seattle who said - yes, there is a small possibility that some type of radiation may arrive on the west coast within the next two days but it's highly unlikely that the amount will be any larger than what we are exposed to every day.

Then they went back to the anchor guy who said - that was so and so at the Univ. of Washington, confirming that radiation from Japan will arrive on the West Coast in 48 hours!

While listening to that, I realized that even if large amounts of radiation come flying across the water, there really isn't anything I can do anyway. I refuse to live, the way I did for a few days, as if the sky is falling. I will pay attention to the people who know things and if they say to panic, I'll panic. In the mean time, I'm much more interested in the other news coming out of Japan right now.

[AtLast]

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar...e-nrc-20110318

Japan nuclear crisis could last for weeks, U.S. nuclear official says

[AtLast]

http://www.huliq.com/12079/radiation-scare-japan-food-chain-testing-world-wide-including-us

The big news coming from Japan is the tainted food supply from high radiation levels found in farm products in the area around the damaged nuclear power plant. The threat of radiation contamination to food supplies is not only prompting testing in Japan, but around the world testing for radiation is going on, including here in the US.

Japanese officials have confirmed that some of their farm products around the area of the nuclear power plant have been contaminated with radiation. Yukio Edano, the Chief Cabinet Secretary is considering limiting shipments of farm products from the affected areas, and reports there is no immediate health risks.

Lam ching-wan, a chemical pathologist at the University of Hong Kong School of Medicine said that Japan should seriously think about restricting any shipments of agricultural products in the area of the nuclear power plants in Japan, according to an article on the Bloomberg website.

Radiation has been discovered in tap water in Tokyo and other areas of Japan that are over 100 miles away from the nuclear power plant, according to Fox News this morning. Milk and spinach are the first two farm products in Japan discovered with high levels of radiation in them today, with the testing continuing around the region of the nuclear plant.

California officials are screening milk from grass eating cows in the state for signs of radiation contamination. Officials continue to stress that there is no health risk from the radiation that drifted into California from Japan’s faltering nuclear power plants.

Food imports from Japan are being screened for possible radiation in South Korea, Indonesia, Thailand, and Singapore. In the US, anything coming from Japan is being screened for radiation today, according to Fox News.

Airline passengers are also being screened for radiation with some small amounts found on passengers landing in two US airports yesterday.

L.A. is seeing a surge in people buying up supplies of food, water purification tablets and iodine pills. Another item that is flying off the shelves at health food stores is kelp. People are buying this believing that its iodine content will help protect the thyroid from radiation exposure.

The threat of radiation exposure frightens many people because it is something that is invisible. Other than using a radiation detecting instrument, there is no way to know where the radiation is going or where it has been. The US imports goods from all over the world, including from Japan, and this just adds to the worries of the public that radioactive products will make its way into the food chain.

The FDA is screening not only the food, but anything that comes from Japan today and is still assuring Americans that there is no public health risk. US officials do not expect any radiation in high levels to come into the United States, whether it be from the air or anything imported into the country for consumers.

[Linus]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/radiation.png

[AtLast]

My next door neighbor is a retired structural engineer (not nuclear) from PG&E (retired about a year after 35 years). Handy guy to have around. Anyway, he has worked on several nuclear reactors through the years and has been to Japan to see their reactors and attend conferences, etc. in his field while doing structural work on CA reactors. His areas of expertise are in metallurgy compounds and elemental structures (yup, sometimes, i just listen with my mouth open).

I ran into him this AM and asked him quite a few things, but the convo about how good it is that power is being returned to the plants and ER workers was interesting. he said if even some of the intrumentation in the plant control centers is working or can be fixed, so many of our questions could answered in terms of the actual damage inside the reactors- the containment vessels, especially. They have cameras throughout them. Other data could also finally be collected that can't be without the electrical systems working.

Then, TEPCO would have so much more info to put plans together- well, as long as the cooling continues to work.

He had lots to say about how newer plants designed after these (built in 1979) plants went online had many, many changes in those designs as well as how they are built- right down to cement mixing and rebar!! Obviously, the spent fuel arrangement at the Japan plants would not be done in the same way any longer.

Interesting conversation- Frank is super as a neighbor- has given me lots of tips for landcape and deck projects, plus helped me with getting my house's foundation (1940 bungalow) retro-fitted for earthquakes here in the SF Bay area.

just thought I'd share this. Aj has more of the goods on radiation- and Linus posted a chart. Thank!

[AtLast]

As always, media coverage is conflicting- re- CNN (Situation Room) just said Japanese governemnt widing evacuation zone- also might inpose mandatory evacuations in some areas. Yet, the continued down-play of radiation levels even with the mox mix.

NPR has blurb on why we we may never get full details.

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/25/134844090/japan-reactor-nuclear-core-may-have-breached?ft=1&f=1001

March 25, 2011
The operators of the damaged Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant say it's likely that radiation detected in water pooling in the basement of a Unit 3 building came from the reactor's main vessel. This reactor has been the source of major concern since the March 11 earthquake and tsunami that devastated northern Japan, and led to the current crisis at the power facility.

Friday marks the two-week anniversary of the earthquake and tsunami that killed more than 10,000 people, and led to the crisis at the nuclear plant.

The announcement of the water leak raised concerns that the reactor core may have been breached. Officials later insisted that they have found no evidence of an actual breach in the reactor. There are many pipes and connections leading from the main vessel to the turbine building that could be the source of leaking water.

The water found in the turbine building of Unit 3 showed extremely high levels of radiation, and also contained isotopes that are not ordinarily present in cooling water.Since the accident began, there's been considerable speculation as to whether radiation leaks are coming from the reactors themselves or from spent fuel stored in pools that may have been damaged. This latest announcement is another indication that a leak is coming from the reactor itself. Highly radioactive water has also been found in the turbine buildings of Unit 1.

Japan Self-Defense Force officers in radiation protection suits hold a blue sheet over patients who were exposed high levels of radiation at the the Fukushima nuclear power plant as they are transferred to a hospital Thursday.

Japan Self-Defense Force officers in radiation protection suits hold a blue sheet over patients who were exposed high levels of radiation at the the Fukushima nuclear power plant as they are transferred to a hospital Thursday.

Injured Workers

The news of the leak comes a day after three workers were exposed to high levels of radioactivity while laying electrical cable in the basement of Unit 3's turbine building. Two of the men were taken to a local hospital for treatment of possible radiation burns. All three men were then brought to Japan's National Institute of Radiological Sciences in the Tokyo area.

The men worked for Kandenko Co, a electrical engineering firm doing subcontracting work for Tokyo Electric Power Co., or TEPCO. They are reported to be in good condition, and are expected to be released next week.

In a statement Friday, TEPCO, which runs the plant, indicated that the workers had ignored high readings on their dosimeters, which measure the presence of radiation.

The Nuclear Safety Commission of Japan also widened a voluntary evacuation area around the plant to a radius of about 18 miles from the nuclear plant. Since March 15, residents living within 12 miles have been urged to leave the area, and those living within the 18-mile range had been told to remain indoors.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano says local governments are being told to call for voluntary evacuations 18 miles out. The government said that the main concern was not radiation exposure, but that services in the area had been severely disrupted by the earthquake, tsunami and the nuclear crisis.

Mothers receive bottled water at a ward office in Tokyo, Friday, March 25, 2011 as the Tokyo Metropolitan Government started on Thursday to distribute three small bottles of water each to an estimated 80,000 families with babies of 12 months or younger

Mothers receive bottled water at a ward office in Tokyo, Friday, March 25, 2011 as the Tokyo Metropolitan Government started on Thursday to distribute three small bottles of water each to an estimated 80,000 families with babies of 12 months or younger.
The U.S. government previously had told its citizens to stay 50 miles away from the plant.

Food And Water Concerns

Radiation leaks have contaminated some food and water around the plant. Tokyo residents were warned on Wednesday that tap water had tested high for radioactivity, and that they should not allow infants to drink the water.

That order was rescinded the next day when readings dropped. But water systems in a number of cities continue to test above the levels considered safe for small children.

Japan has restricted the sale and consumption of vegetables, fruit and milk produced around the plant. And the United States and other countries have banned the import of some food products from the affected area.

Damage To Reactor Buildings

Japan's Self-Defense Forces released a video of the damaged reactor buildings, shot from a military helicopter. The film shows extensive damage to many of the buildings.

Despite these problems, officials continue to insist they are making progress in getting control of the six reactors at the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant. Work to revive the cooling equipment that lost power continues, officials say. External power has been restored to all six reactors. And the lights are coming back on in control rooms that have been dark and deserted for two weeks.

Technicians are also beginning to pump fresh water, instead of seawater, into Unit 1. TEPCO has been injecting seawater into some of the reactors to keep nuclear fuel from overheating, but there's concern that salt deposits from the seawater could make it more difficult to cool the fuel inside the reactors. The company plans to replace seawater with fresh water at Units 2 and 3, which have also suffered fuel damage.

Relief officials now say the confirmed death toll from the earthquake and tsunami has reached 10,000, with more than 17,000 people still missing. Hundreds of thousands of people are believed to be homeless, and the number of evacuees will now increase, with the government's decision to expand the safety zone around the plant.

With reporting from NPR's Jon Hamilton and Greg Dixon in Tokyo. Material from The Associated Press was also used in this report.

[AtLast]

The radiation levels leaking are an obvious concern- but this might explain why they are not able to get the core re-covered in water. Some claims of several cracks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/25/japanese-nuclear-fear-crack-reactor-core

Japanese nuclear officials fear crack in reactor corePossible damage at Fukushima nuclear power plant could cause leak of high levels of radiation


Friday 25 March

Japanese people leave Minamisoma after the government told residents living near the Fukushima nuclear power plant to evacuate. Photograph: The Asahi

Nuclear safety officials in Japan fear the core of a reactor at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant may have cracked, causing a leak of high levels of radiation.

Growing uncertainty over the state of the stricken reactor prompted the government to tell people living within a 12-19 mile (20-30km) radius of the plant to consider leaving their homes temporarily.

The government's chief spokesman, Yukio Edano, said 130,000 residents in the area had been encouraged to leave to improve their quality of life, not because their health was at risk.

The nuclear emergency, 150 miles north of Tokyo, has caused severe disruption to business, supply routes and other services in the area.

On Thursday, three workers were exposed to radiation after stepping in contaminated water in the turbine building of the No 3 reactor. They were trying to cool the crippled reactor when the accident occurred.

"The contaminated water had 10,000 times the amount of radiation as would be found in water circulating from a normally operating reactor," said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman for Japan's nuclear safety agency. "It is possible that there is damage to the reactor."

Two of the men received possible beta ray burns to their legs. All three have been transferred to a special radiation treatment facility.

Edano said the source of the leak remained unknown. "We are exploring every possibility, but we don't think this is a new situation, rather that a certain amount of radiation may have leaked from the reactor. This is a possibility that we have been mentioning for some time.

"But at this point we don't know if the radiation is coming from the reactor itself or from another source."
Nuclear officials say the leak may have come from pipes or the reactor's pool for storing spent fuel rods, which workers have been struggling to cool off since the plant was badly damaged in the 11 March earthquake and tsunami.

Officials were preparing themselves for the possibility that the reactor core was damaged in an explosion three days after the disaster that destroyed its containment building. The reactor contains 170 tonnes of radioactive fuel in its core, and is the only one of the facility's six reactors that contains the potentially more dangerous plutonium-uranium mixed oxide fuel.

Thursday's accident forced a temporary halt to work on two reactors while technicians check radiation levels.

"We should try to avoid delays if at all possible, but we also need to ensure that the people working there are safe," Nishiyama said.

-------

I'm wondering (for Aj- or anyone that might know), if this is true, if the filling of the reactor as was done in Chernobyl with cenent and boron will be used?

The only resports I have heard about this being part of the reason the workers haven't been able to get the core covered with water due to these breaches (cracks) was on the Rachael Maddow Show this evening via one of her guests. Professor Frank Von Hippel, nuclear physicist and co-founder of the program on science and global security at Princeton University.



http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#42261008