Have you met or know a psychopath/sociopath?

[adorable]

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/teleg.htm


http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm


These are a couple of interesting things that I've discovered in researching personality disorders. Some people say "Oh, I have the craziest mother!" in almost a cute way. I say it because I mean it. The woman is dangerous.

She was diagnosed at one point, as we were kicked out of mandated family therapy with a team of psychiatrists at one of the best teaching hospitals in the state. The things that she has done in her life, to her family and still today are just so unbelievable that people tend to actually NOT believe it. For the first time in our lives, professionals have SEEMED to catch on and something might be done before she kills someone again ( kills someone again - I wish that wasn't true. But it is - she has killed once already.)

It's only by actually interacting with her for more than a week, that you realize you are dealing with someone who is an expert manipulator devoid of true emotion. If you are invested with her at any level, it's impossible not to sense that something is very wrong. She has no friends, can't hold a job and carries herself like royalty.

I think that when we think of psychopaths we think of Ted Bundy or other serial killers. We don't think of the people we work with, live with or meet on the street. They usually appear normal and the only way you can tell is by the path of destruction left in their wake. They are expert cons, who lie when it's easier to tell the truth. They use people to their gain and people who believe them, they consider foolish/gullible. They have the ability to even pass lie detector tests.

My brother and I have always known that she was this way. She has done things and gotten away with things that are both horrific and shocking. When it seems like "FINALLY" she is going to be locked away forever - poof - she seems to walk away unscathed.

One of the more bizarre characteristics of psychopath's is that things that would normally cause people great angst, like homelessness, a horrible life event, major disease, ect. doesn't come with the emotion that you would expect. They are only able to parrot the emotion they think they should feel, they don't actually feel it. So it doesn't effect them the way it would you or I.

And there is no treatment. They are incapable of looking at themselves and blame everyone else for their problems, arrests, difficulty or situation. There is no medication because there is no chemical imbalance. Some psychiatrists say they simply have no soul.

The statistics I'm reading claim that one in nine or ten is a psychopath. So it's likely that we know one (or ARE one lol but if you have the ability to question yourself (I have read) that almost certainly disqualifies you.) I know that how I was raised screwed me up for life - I have had to learn social skills that other people take for granted. I married a psychopath at 17 and divorced shortly thereafter. Even after years of therapy, I lived a "sane" relationship with someone who was unmedicated and bipolar for several years. Insanity can seem normal to me. I have to constantly watch and question myself in a way that others don't need to.

I wonder if anyone else has had the experience of living with or knowing someone who is a psychopath/sociopath? (most psychiatrists consider the terms interchangeable.) I wonder if there is way to ever actually protect ourselves or defend from such an invisible threat?

[dark_crystal]

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/teleg.htm


http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm


These are a couple of interesting things that I've discovered in researching personality disorders. Some people say "Oh, I have the craziest mother!" in almost a cute way. I say it because I mean it. The woman is dangerous.

She was diagnosed at one point, as we were kicked out of mandated family therapy with a team of psychiatrists at one of the best teaching hospitals in the state. The things that she has done in her life, to her family and still today are just so unbelievable that people tend to actually NOT believe it. For the first time in our lives, professionals have SEEMED to catch on and something might be done before she kills someone again ( kills someone again - I wish that wasn't true. But it is - she has killed once already.)

It's only by actually interacting with her for more than a week, that you realize you are dealing with someone who is an expert manipulator devoid of true emotion. If you are invested with her at any level, it's impossible not to sense that something is very wrong. She has no friends, can't hold a job and carries herself like royalty.

I think that when we think of psychopaths we think of Ted Bundy or other serial killers. We don't think of the people we work with, live with or meet on the street. They usually appear normal and the only way you can tell is by the path of destruction left in their wake. They are expert cons, who lie when it's easier to tell the truth. They use people to their gain and people who believe them, they consider foolish/gullible. They have the ability to even pass lie detector tests.

My brother and I have always known that she was this way. She has done things and gotten away with things that are both horrific and shocking. When it seems like "FINALLY" she is going to be locked away forever - poof - she seems to walk away unscathed.

One of the more bizarre characteristics of psychopath's is that things that would normally cause people great angst, like homelessness, a horrible life event, major disease, ect. doesn't come with the emotion that you would expect. They are only able to parrot the emotion they think they should feel, they don't actually feel it. So it doesn't effect them the way it would you or I.

And there is no treatment. They are incapable of looking at themselves and blame everyone else for their problems, arrests, difficulty or situation. There is no medication because there is no chemical imbalance. Some psychiatrists say they simply have no soul.

The statistics I'm reading claim that one in nine or ten is a psychopath. So it's likely that we know one (or ARE one lol but if you have the ability to question yourself (I have read) that almost certainly disqualifies you.) I know that how I was raised screwed me up for life - I have had to learn social skills that other people take for granted. I married a psychopath at 17 and divorced shortly thereafter. Even after years of therapy, I lived a "sane" relationship with someone who was unmedicated and bipolar for several years. Insanity can seem normal to me. I have to constantly watch and question myself in a way that others don't need to.

I wonder if anyone else has had the experience of living with or knowing someone who is a psychopath/sociopath? (most psychiatrists consider the terms interchangeable.) I wonder if there is way to ever actually protect ourselves or defend from such an invisible threat?

i do not know any officially diagnosed psycho- or sociopaths. I have my suspicions, though, about some of my past partners. I have obssessive compulsive personality disorder, conscientous subtype- and my mother and grandfather have it too (my therapist's theory), and severe self-doubt, guilt, shame, and fear of failure are family traditions: so i have always been like delicious candy for predators. I have been in two relationships with malignant narcissists/histrionics and i think they are on that spectrum...

[dixie]

I actually dealt with something like this with my boss a while back. Everyone in the nonprofit agency I work in, the state and federal caucus, and pretty much everyone who has known her the last few years was completely in shock when we found out the truth a couple months ago.

She is/was a very powerful and respected advocate for domestic violence. She was also a Desert Storm veteran and RN. She went all over the country telling the story of how she survived the attempted murder attack from her rich, powerful military husband. An attack in their palatial Kentucky home that killed her unborn baby. She survived and fled, changing her identity and doing advocacy work. She said her ex-husband went on to kill his second wife with a tire iron and then kill himself. She had no family, as her mother was deceased and her father hadn't spoken to her in years since she chose to live off of the Cherokee reservation. There were many more stories as well, about her struggles to survive and make a new life for herself while helping other dv survivors.

A couple months ago, odd things started to happen so our executive director decided to do a little digging into my boss' past. We were all outraged that the E.D. would risk the boss' life because her ex's powerful family was still looking for her. Come to find out, the digging changed EVERYTHING that we thought we knew.

The boss' entire life story, even her name, was a complete and total fabrication. She had been married to that man, but they were not wealthy. There was also no violence in that relationship (or in any of her others). He is still alive and well, still happily married to the second wife, and spoke fondly of the boss. Turns out, she had left him to marry her stepfather. Yes, stepfather. The man who was at the time married to her mother. Yes, the mother who was supposedly deceased is also alive and well. The mother and half-sisters were more than happy to tell us all about the day my boss announced to her family that she was running away with her mother's husband, the father of her half-sisters. That's when her family quit speaking to her. (Her father that she spoke of had actually not been in her life since the beginning.)

We also found out that the stepfather-turned-husband had died of mysterious causes, as had 3 more husbands afterwards. She is currently married to a really nice man and we're kind of worried about his safety as well, since he went from a healthy robust man when they married 5 years ago to a very broken, ill-health shadow of his former self currently.

Also, she had never been in the military and there is no nursing degree to any of the aliases that we know her to have. The hospital she claimed to work at... well, when we called them we found out that it shut down years ago and that it was a very strict mental facility. They were also able to tell us that she was not an employee, but a patient. Her mother confirmed this and said that she has had "issues" since she was a small child. (She is in her mid 40's.)

It was a total shock to know that my mentor and friend was a complete and total fraud. She has been diagnosed as a sociopath. All of the evidence that we have collected has been given to local and state authorities due to the multiple laws broken. She has also been black-balled by all the domestic violence agencies in the state. We're hoping that someone will do more digging into her past husbands' deaths and her current husband's illness. (The step-siblings are considering exhuming their father.) Every one is also on high alert given her threats of retaliation and her history of violence. (And the fact that she is heavily armed 24/7.) It was so sad and felt like such a betrayal. There is so much more to the story, but at least now we know. I do believe this is the first sociopath I have ran across in my personal life and hopefully the last.

I only had this person in my life for a short while, so I totally I feel for you for what you deal with concerning your mother.

[Rockinonahigh]

I know that when I was small things went along just fine,it started becomeing difficult as I got into my teens.lots of times ppl never saw what went on at home cause mom just didnt act anyway but what was considered normal,shure she got an attitude with others at times but the worst was at home.Her behavior was verbaly abusive and at times( more that I would like to admit) physicaly abusive,she was a controle freak,I mean its her way or the highway.As long as things went her way and whoever she wanted to boss around did what she said all went well.For instance.One time I went tp pick her up from work as I was geting off my job at the auction barn,all I had to do was park in the desinated spot of employee pick up then we went home.I never ever spoke to nor associated with the ppl she worked with,because I didnt have time to go home and shower before I picked her up she had a fit as we drove away about me being clean.SHe knew my job and there would be days like this,soon we got out of the parkeing lot she starting screaming at me about it all and didnt stop even we got home she ranted till she just wore out.It was always my fault or because I did things she thought was wrong,she has thrown ash trays,trophies,food,slaped me not to mention I was just the biggest freak flag in the world.Then the silen treatment would start..not a word to me for days and weeks on end,we lived in the same house,she wouldnt eat the food I cooked,or wear the laundry I washed.One day she told me not to park where ppl could see me..park out by the road I will walk to find u.One day I got up and just left I was gone for a fue days then went to get my stuff..what was left of it.I had taken my my youngest son with me...my oldest said he staying cause he knew he did no wrong in her eyes besides he was old enough to make his own choice.When she finaly baceim very sick and needed help no one would help..my youngest was in the Army the oldest had left home and nobody knew where he was.So I did what I needed to do as did my youngest son when he came home.Even tho we became friends of a sort..I often wonder how anyone caould be so hateful on one hand then be so goodthe other.Maybe its best I dont know just move on as I have..the good times were great but fue..I try to remember the good and let go of the not so good..better that way.

[Glenn]

My father was Mafioso. He worked with Al Capone's cousin Rocky Fichetti. The strange thing is, half my family were lawyers, doctors, funeral home owners, police officers, and the other half were mafioso. I can still see us all together for the holidays. My heart is in my throat and I am shaking as I type this. The things my father and my uncle have done, and the stories I heard were horrendous at the very least. They acted like the nicest people on Earth, never laid a hand on me. Ya know I really can't type anymorenow.. I should delete this..:(

[Nat]

This excerpt is from: "The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless vs. the Rest of Us" by Martha Stout Ph.D. (Broadway Books, New York, 2005, ISBN 0-7679-1581-X). Martha Stout is a clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School and elaborates on the tales of ruthlessness in everyday life based on her 25 years of practice as a specialist in the treatment of psychological trauma survivors.


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Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern of the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken. And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless. You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience that they seldom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world. You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered.

How will you live your life? What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)? The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and non-violent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites.

Maybe you are someone who craves money and power, and though you have no vestige of conscience, you do have a magnificent IQ. You have the driving nature and the intellectual capacity to pursue tremendous wealth and influence, and you are in no way moved by the nagging voice of conscience that prevents other people from doing everything and anything they have to do to succeed. You choose business, politics, the law, banking or international development, or any of a broad array of other power professions, and you pursue your career with a cold passion that tolerates none of the usual moral or legal encumbrances. When it is expedient, you doctor the accounting and shred the evidence, you stab your employees and your clients (or your constituency) in the back, marry for money, tell lethal premeditated lies to people who trust you, attempt to ruin colleagues who are powerful or eloquent, and simply steamroll over groups who are dependent and voiceless. And all of this you do with the exquisite freedom that results from having no conscience whatsoever.

You become unimaginably, unassailably, and maybe even globally successful. Why not? With your big brain, and no conscience to rein in your schemes, you can do anything at all.

Or no - let us say you are not quite such a person. You are ambitious, yes, and in the name of success you are willing to do all manner of things that people with conscience would never consider, but you are not an intellectually gifted individual. Your intelligence is above average perhaps, and people think of you as smart, maybe even very smart. But you know in your heart of hearts that you do not have the cognitive wherewithal, or the creativity, to reach the careening heights of power you secretly dreams about, and this makes you resentful of the world at large, and envious of the people around you.

As this sort of person, you ensconce yourself in a niche, or maybe a series of niches, in which you can have some amount of control over small numbers of people. These situations satisfy a little of your desire for power, although you are chronically aggravated at not having more. It chafes to be so free of the ridiculous inner voices that inhibit others from achieving great power, without having enough talent to pursue the ultimate successes yourself. Sometimes you fall into sulky, rageful moods caused by a frustration that no one but you understands.

But you do enjoy jobs that afford you a certain undersupervised control over a few individuals or small groups, preferably people and groups who are relatively helpless or in some way vulnerable. You are a teacher or a psychotherapist, a divorce lawyer or a high school coach. Or maybe you are a consultant of some kind, a broker or a gallery owner or a human services director. Or maybe you do not have a paid position and are instead the president of your condominium association, or a volunteer hospital worker, or a parent. Whatever your job, you manipulate and bully the people who are under your thumb, as often and as outrageously as you can without getting fired or held accountable. You do this for its own sake, even when it serves no purpose except to give you a thrill. Making people jump means you have power - or this is the way you see it - and bullying provides you with an adrenaline rush. It is fun.

Maybe you cannot be a CEO of a multinational corporation, but you can frighten a few people, or cause them to scurry around like chickens, or steal from them, or - maybe, best of all - create situations that cause them to feel bad about themselves. And this is power, especially when the people you manipulate are superior to you in some way. Most invigorating of all is to bring down people who are smarter or more accomplished than you, or perhaps classier, more attractive or popular or morally admirable. This is not only good fun; it is existential vengeance. And without a conscience, it is amazingly easy to do. You quietly lie to the boss or to the boss's boss, cry some crocodile tears, or sabotage a coworker's project, or gaslight a patient (or child), bait people with promises, or provide a little misinformation that will never be traced back to you.

Or now let us say you are a person who has a proclivity for violence or for seeing violence done. You simply murder your coworker, or have her murdered - or your boss, or your ex-spouse, or your wealthy lover's spouse, or anyone else who bothers you. You have to be careful, because if you slip up, you may be caught and punished by the system. But you will never be confronted by your conscience, because you have no conscience. If you decide to kill, the only difficulties will be the external ones. Nothing inside you will ever protest.

Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all. If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from far away, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. In fact, terrorism (done from a distance) is the ideal occupation for a person who is possessed of blood lust and no conscience, because if you do it just right, you may be able to make a whole nation jump. And if that is not power, what is?

Or let us imagine the opposite extreme: You have no interest in power. To the contrary, you are the sort of person who really does not want much of anything. Your only real ambition is not to have to exert yourself to get by. You do not want to work like everyone else does. Without a conscience, you can nap or pursue your hobbies or watch television or just hang out somewhere all day long. Living a bit on the fringes, and with some handouts from relatives and friends, you can do this indefinitely. People may whisper to one another that you are an underachiever, or that you are depressed, a sad case, or, in contrast, if they get angry, they may grumble that you are lazy. When they get to know you better, and get really angry, they may scream at you and call you a loser, a bum. But it will never occur to them that you literally do not have a conscience, that in such a fundamental way, your very mind is not the same as theirs.

The panicked feeling of a guilty conscience never squeezes at your heart or wakes you in the night. Despite your lifestyle, you never feel irresponsible, neglectful or so much as embarrassed, although for the sake of appearances, sometimes you pretend that you do. For example, if you are a decent observer of people and what they react to, you may adopt a lifeless facial expression, say how ashamed of your life you are, and talk about how rotten you feel. This you do only because it is more convenient to have people think you are depressed than it is to have them shouting at you all the time, or insisting that you get a job.

You notice that people who do have a conscience feel guilty when they harangue someone they believe to be "depressed" or "troubled." As a matter of fact, to you further advantage, they often feel obliged to take care of such a person. If, despite your relative poverty, you can manage to get yourself into a sexual relationship with someone, this person - who does not suspect what you are really like - may feel particularly obligated. And since all you want is not to have to work, your financier does not have to be especially rich, just relatively conscience-bound.

I trust that imagining yourself as any of these people feels insane to you, because such people are insane, dangerously so. Insane but real - they even have a label. Many mental health professionals refer to the condition of little or no conscience as "anti-social personality disorder," a non-correctable disfigurement of character that is now thought to be present in about 4 percent of the population - that is to say, one in twenty-five people. This condition of missing conscience is called by other names, too, most often "sociopathy," or the somewhat more familiar term psychopathy. Guiltlessness was in fact the first personality disorder to be recognized by psychiatry, and terms that have been used at times over the past century include manie sans délire, psychopathic inferiority, moral insanity, and moral imbecility.

[Nat]

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

[Nat]

I've come into contact with a few where I've wondered. A family friend turned out to be one - he was a successful business man for many years and nobody questioned his character. But then he robbed a bank and was cool as a cucumber afterwards. He was sent to prison and when he got out, he drove down to Houston and shot a man to death, came home and asked his wife to wash off his bloody clothes.

But most sociopaths find more rewards in life by avoiding prison. Unless they happen to be *into* committing certain crimes. Their lives are determined by what they get a kick out of.

My best friend was taken in by one for 5 years, and she is a different person now than she was before. She kept trying to understand his behavior and make it make sense to her because he had painted this picture of a love that she really wanted - but it's not real. He's moved on to other victims now, and she's got her brain back, but it was educational to see. I didn't understand how bad it was at the time, because sociopaths make their victims look like the crazy ones. They themselves are like teflon usually.

It's not just that normal people have a conscience. It's that normal people believe things like, "well, there are two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle." But when one of the two people telling a story is a sociopath, the truth lies nowhere near the middle. And if the victim is calling a person a sociopath or relating to a third party the real goings on - they are likely to sound unbelievable because it just sounds so far-fetched. People don't want to believe that these folks are among us, but they are. Speaking out against them will often backfire, and so their victims learn to keep their mouths shut.

[Kobi]

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)



This description gives great insight into politicians
and wall street types.

[AtLast]

Certainly have - both professionally and personally.

Very cunning, often quite charming and bright- which makes them all the more dangerous. And they are not just what forensic TV shows demonstrate- they are all around us in various forms as in personality disordered people on one axis of mental illness diagnosis.

[Quintease]

My ex. Told me she has a Psychology degree which she couldn't prove, was a fellow at an organisation which didn't have her listed, and went around telling people that her parents were very well off - I met them. Told me she was in the military.. I know people in the military and she wasn't. Told us she had been in close protection.. she doesn't even have a security license!
Said she'd been a trader in her 20's - not only does she not have any money, and I know how much traders earn, she tried to do online trading while we were together and failed miserably. She also claims to be strictly religious, yet seriously assaulted me while we were together and lied through her teeth to me and everyone I know. To be honest I'm not even sure she's gay. She was really inexperienced regarding lesbian sex and accidentally admitted to me at one point that she prefers blokes!

I'm still in shock that I dated her, she's not even attractive! But I was in a very dark place when we got together and she was very charming. Later I realised that she'd met most of her ex-partners and friends while they were going through some personal struggle. I supposed that way she can avoid difficult questions and suspicions. Luckily my friends had pegged her correctly from the beginning and were there to support me until I wised up.

I assume she's still out there, sleazing up to broken women and stealing mine and my friends stories as her own. I'm really sad that I dated her. I feel I wasted precious years of my life which I could have spent with someone more worthy.

[Miss Scarlett]

Many...in the past and currently.

[adorable]

I've come into contact with a few where I've wondered. A family friend turned out to be one - he was a successful business man for many years and nobody questioned his character. But then he robbed a bank and was cool as a cucumber afterwards. He was sent to prison and when he got out, he drove down to Houston and shot a man to death, came home and asked his wife to wash off his bloody clothes.

But most sociopaths find more rewards in life by avoiding prison. Unless they happen to be *into* committing certain crimes. Their lives are determined by what they get a kick out of.

My best friend was taken in by one for 5 years, and she is a different person now than she was before. She kept trying to understand his behavior and make it make sense to her because he had painted this picture of a love that she really wanted - but it's not real. He's moved on to other victims now, and she's got her brain back, but it was educational to see. I didn't understand how bad it was at the time, because sociopaths make their victims look like the crazy ones. They themselves are like teflon usually.

It's not just that normal people have a conscience. It's that normal people believe things like, "well, there are two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle." But when one of the two people telling a story is a sociopath, the truth lies nowhere near the middle. And if the victim is calling a person a sociopath or relating to a third party the real goings on - they are likely to sound unbelievable because it just sounds so far-fetched. People don't want to believe that these folks are among us, but they are. Speaking out against them will often backfire, and so their victims learn to keep their mouths shut.

Oh this is SO true! They do make their victims look like the crazy ones. They lie so easily and so cooly - even in the same breath that people assume they didn't mean it. It's human nature to trust people, it's kind of how society works. Without some level of trust it would be hard to function. If you couldn't trust that MOST people follow the rules of the road, or wouldn't break the law, or be able to believe that most people to "mean well" - it would be too dangerous and scary to walk outside. It's that trust that sociopath's exploit. They use it over and over (and sometimes even with the SAME people) - then because they have no moral sense - it doesn't phase them in the least if they get caught. They laugh it off like the person who caught them is making a big deal about nothing. Because they are so glib and good at acting, people actually question themselves and think maybe they are making a bigger deal out of it then they should. Regardless of what the sociopath is doing - which could be anything.

If they get caught stealing money from you, they are likely to say "Remember that money I let you borrow a while back? I needed it back desperately, so I grabbed it. I knew you wouldn't mind."
But, you say, you never borrowed any money from me!
"Oh," they say. "I did! I swear it was you. Just last year! I didn't want to bring it up and make you feel bad."
No, you insist, you didn't borrow money from them.
(The argument is now about whether you borrowed money, not the fact they were caught stealing from you red handed.)
"I SWEAR! You borrowed $300 just last year!," they seem 100% sure. When you again say that you didn't, they suddenly realize that it was someone else that borrowed the money and apologize for the now simple misunderstanding, promising to pay back the missing money with interest.

Which, of course, they never do. Because they don't deny stealing (they don't see it as stealing since they deserve it for whatever reason they've given themselves (even though they know you didn't borrow any money) they know that you will WANT to give them the benefit of the doubt that weren't stealing. So they give you an excuse for their behavior.
Next week it will be something else, and so on....forever, until they are out of your life.

They also consider themselves to be intellectually superior to other people. What they really are - are just schemers/cons who literally spend all day trying to stay five steps ahead of other people for the diabolical plots that no one but them would be insane enough to dream up anyway.

[Thinker]

Interesting material here.

We (mods and admin) want to remind everyone that with topics such as these, some posts can start to feel a little too familiar or personal. We certainly don't want that here.

Continue as you have been....keeping the information private and making sure you (general you) do not discuss people or relationships that others might assume relate to community members.

Thank you!

Thinker (moderator)

[Soft*Silver]

Thanks, Thinker, for the reminder. Who I am about to discuss, is not nor has ever been, part of this or any BF online community.

She was several partners ago.

She told me she was once an ED of a non profit, was once vastly invested in women's issues, had two cell phones, beepers, and even had some form of tracker on her and her vehicle in case she came up missing because of the kind of work she did.

She had gone to NYC for a national conference where she was to be one of the workshop presenters when 911 happened. She had just left the building. She didnt remember how she got out of NYC. When she was recovering from it, she made a decision to slow down her life, and she wanted to sell the house in the country, the house in the city, the cottage in the catskills and just live in a tiny home with her partner, and enjoy a simple life and take on a simpler job so she wasnt working 80 hours a week. 911 made her realize how short life was. Her partner wouldnt let her so she left her and bought a small house/cottage out in the foothills of the catskills on the border of the country.

thats where I met her. She told me she was program director of a non profiit. She owned the land across the street, which was acres of sheep and creeks and meadows. She said she was related to the richest woman on the titanic. She said she wanted me to wear a ring worthy of who SHE was and gave me a 3 diamond ring from Tiffanys. She said she had had a team of draft horses. She said she built on the beautiful addition to her cottage by herself. She said she had stocks and bonds. She said she had a best friend who she had never dated. She said she and this ex from the 911 period had been together for 7 years. She said she had been to Ireland. She said she went there a few times. She said she was a skilled equestrian and jumper. She said she.......

none of it was true. None. Not a single solitary word. I was with her for 8 months and in that eight months my sense of reality was so altered *I* became delusional. I literally could not tell fact from fiction. She had worked such a number on me that I went on to another relationship where this relationship marred my ability to "see" and "believe" and I was absolutely delusional about things in that relationship. I could not trust him and what he said and who he related to in our life together.

it is one of the reasons why I am not in a relationship now. I realized this the longer I was away from being in a relationship and the healthier I got. And the longer I was in therapy,I realized, that ontop of my own issues, that particular relationship with the sociopath had created in me a delusional way of interacting within a relationship. I have been working HARD at fixing that. Trust me, you dont get over that just by leaving that kind of relationship. And I am coming clean publicly about it because I know some of you have had that kind of relationship. If you havent gotten help, do so. Its affected you more than you realize.

I dont know where that sociopath is now. I hope she hasnt taken on anymore hostages but I am sure she has. She is charming, can be entertaining, and obviously alluring. I wasnt her first victim. I talked to that ex of hers she was supposedly with for 7 years. LOL. Try less than 6months. And she had been a client of hers! <gasp> and she had to take a restraining order out against her. And she had known about women before her, and since her.

Again, this person is NOT anyone from this site or any BF site. So dont go knocking your heads trying to figure out who she is.

I hope someone comes out with a book dealing with the people who have been affected by the sociopaths. Now THAT would be a best seller!

[Blade]

yes I know a few some family, some children of friends or coworkers. I can't think of anyone that I'm friends with or am around daily that is though. Guess that is a good thing. I don't have good patience for that sort of stuff.

[Nat]

This description gives great insight into politicians
and wall street types.

I know - the people I kept picturing as I was posting that were a few prominent politicians here in Texas.

But really - you never know what's going on on the insides of other people and maybe that's a blessing.

[Kenna]

Yes.....
One almost killed me in 1994, when I was very pregnant, by inflicting a bone jarring, knock-me-blind, rattle-my-teeth Traumatic Brain Injury (that put me in the hospital for 2 weeks) and repeatedly inflicting various other ways of causing great pain and mental torture that gave them great satisfaction. My oldest son and I still suffer from extreme PTSD and mental anguish.... my youngest son did not make it.

The other individuals (one of which I filed a Protection From Abuse Order against in early 2008/2009) that have been in/out of my life that I, as a health care professional, have thought are psychopaths/sociopaths will never compare to the first one...

Each one were "MASTER Manipulators"....

For all of them that have in one way or another been in my life...the words "no remorse", "no conscience", "pure evil" (in reference to the first one) and "are only sorry when they get caught" come to mind....

I know being affected by their actions, abuse, manipulations and lack of remorse has ruined my trust in general people and affected my ability to form healthy relationships without the PTSD in the background....

[Kenna]

...........

I hope someone comes out with a book dealing with the people who have been affected by the sociopaths. Now THAT would be a best seller!........

Chicken Soup for Survivors of Psychopaths/Sociopaths?
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrdg3l6F2K8wmwwc5Hesmv1MVKftCwJ iXjWJpqpR4txhYK21O2

[JustJo]

Also, she had never been in the military and there is no nursing degree to any of the aliases that we know her to have. The hospital she claimed to work at... well, when we called them we found out that it shut down years ago and that it was a very strict mental facility. They were also able to tell us that she was not an employee, but a patient. Her mother confirmed this and said that she has had "issues" since she was a small child. (She is in her mid 40's.)


Considering HIPAA, I find it almost more shocking that anyone working in the medical profession would disclose this about a former patient than anything the patient has done...

[Nat]

Considering HIPAA, I find it almost more shocking that anyone working in the medical profession would disclose this about a former patient than anything the patient has done...

I know what you mean - I've worked in the medical arena (the business part, not the curing part) and your ass is grass if you confirm somebody was a patient. Not only does it endanger the facility you work for, you can also be held personally liable and subjected to a federally mandated fine. That stuff is supposed to be kept extremely private.

It's funny though, when I watch crime type shows, they always act like hipaa is some silly easily-gotten-around little formality.

[JustJo]

I know what you mean - I've worked in the medical arena (the business part, not the curing part) and your ass is grass if you confirm somebody was a patient. Not only does it endanger the facility you work for, you can also be held personally liable and subjected to a federally mandated fine. That stuff is supposed to be kept extremely private.

It's funny though, when I watch crime type shows, they always act like hipaa is some silly easily-gotten-around little formality.

I agree. I work in the field (also on the biz side) and we get hammered about the "thou shalt nots." Disclosing personal info is like begging for a big fat fine, the loss of a job, and the inability to get another one in the field anytime soon.

[Just_G]

Wow. I just had an "a-ha" moment! Thank you for this information....subscribing!!

[Gemme]

I had Ebon read a portion of the psychopath link and we agreed that someone close to him is, indeed, one. One of my mother's husbands was too.

[dixie]

I actually thought the same considering HIPAA, but apparently since the place is gone all the files are now just sitting in a storage office with a little secretary who apparently isn't very up to date on things. All that was asked was for an employment record.

[scootebaby]

speaking of HIPAA..im not sure how serious it is taken here...i work for a pizza company...in less that a yr i received COMPLETE records on 2 different people from a mental health place in the town over from me,by fax...when i called to ask/inform them they were nonchalant,apologized and asked me to just shred them..didnt matter that i didnt have a shreddder


sorry for derail!

[socialjustice_fsu]

many sociopaths/psychopaths throughout my career as a clinical social worker. I did some advanced studies at our large state hospital (this can be confirmed :) on the forensic/criminally insane unit.) I had to go through a multitude of focused training in personality disorders before I could put a foot into 'the' unit. Without becoming repetitive about what has been pointed out as traits of such folks...this is what I walked away knowing from there after spending nearly 18 months with them: They (the pt.s) are some of the most charming and engaging people you would ever hope to meet. Many times I questioned the treatment team as to the rationale for their hold at a state hospital. These were some of the type of people you might even want to take home to the family to meet them. Their charming and engaging ways are a perfected facade. They have an uncanny way of detecting one's weak area and will succinctly attack it in the most subtle ways. I was fortunate because I worked with a solid, trustworthy team of psychiatrists and psychologists. It was the team that helped me stay sane in the midst of this comfortable quagmire. These pt.'s were not only convincing but had honed the trait of manipulation. Often times, in session, with a pt. (rapist) he had every possible reason to not 'be guilty,' when I printed his charges - he was awaiting competency to stand trial - he could dispute every charge, provide detailed images of where he was at the time of the rape (it had been captured on a surv. camera of a parking lot) and still look at each of his team members and deny it was him. Interesting, though, more often than not as you push a sociopath one can sometimes watch the unraveling of their thinking. I can recall way too many times I watched as an emptiness/lack of emotion come over them through their eye contact and non-verbal cues.
I spent many hours reviewing pt. after pt. cases trying to come to terms with their history and the factors that led them to this place in their lives. Many shared the same traits from an early childhood to the present.
Another odd perception/observation was that I almost always felt 'safe' on this unit. I learned that a clinician (one who had the credentials to be an expert witness in court) was seen as the 'savior' to the patients. They viewed us as their ticket 'out.' They spent an enormous amount of time trying to convince us of their sanity. If we testified to such it could mean a reduced jail time or less time on that particular unit. Of course, there are many factors that feed into such a trial. The pt.'s played the game expertly. It became the challenge to the clinician to remain grounded when attempting to provide services for this population.
I can only remember thinking on my last day on the forensic unit...at least these people are getting some form of treatment...what about the ones that walk side by side of us all throughout our lives and never, ever get the treatment that might evoke change if they wanted to make their lives healthier? Of course, the answer lies within the scope of does the individual recognize their maladaptive lifestyle and, if so, are they motivated for change? Unfortunately, many sociopaths and psychopaths have had these 'successful' skills for years and it has gotten them many things they never would have been able to have if they had used accepted societal means to get them. So these skills have been reinforced albeit negatively...and on and on it goes.

I have spoken some about the forensic results of these disorders. I wanted to add that following some training at the Jimmy Ryce Center in South Florida (this is the location for sexual predators/murderers/rapists of children under the age of 18 reside) the residents of this center are so advanced in their level of personality disorder there is very little chance of any recovery/rehab. These are people that cannot even be in the general population of a forensic/secured state hospital unit due to their likelihood of being threatened or physically hurt. To me, these are the people that are often beyond any scope of rehab. They epitomize the profound psychopath at every level.

[Oiler41]

I've encountered these type of folks a few times in my life; I've also seen close friends who have been subjected to these types of folks. I've been fleeced a few times because of this type of person, and seen friends fleeced. Fleeced, meaning emotionally or financially or mentally or any number of ways possible, although thankfully, I've not personally known anyone who lost their life to someone like this.

I've always struggled with the concept of how people like this sleep at night, and then I read the description of this type of person, like that posted by Nat, and it makes me realize all over again that they sleep just fine as they truly have no conscience and therefore are undeterred by working people over in whatever fashion it is that seems to trip their trigger at the time. They have no remorse because they have no understanding or reference point as to what is right and what is wrong.

It is one of those head tilt things for me. The whole notion of "no conscience" is just so far out of my realm of understanding that it is hard for me to get my brain around it. This is an interesting topic just by virtue of the whole head tilt thing. It is good to read these descriptions to help with understanding that some people aren't just doing things to others intentionally; sometimes, they truly are sociopaths and they truly just aren't like the vast majority of folks in the world. Interesting topic. Thanks for starting the thread and creating thinking points.

Glynn

[undone]

M is the sociopath
C was my wife


Unfortunately I have.
M was a friend of my new girlfriend C at the time M would call all hours of the night and I let it go of course trying to be a respectful guest in C's house.
But over many years in the relationship the things I saw M do things to significant others, family members, and friends were horrific to me, from faking leukemia and tearing her(M's) clothes she was wearing while slamming herself against counters and doors so she(M) could accuse her partner of abuse, to regularly taking pictures of knives bullets or guns in her possession and sending them along with suicide messages or other pictures of her scratched wrists and sending them to my love (at the time we were living in Illinois and the (M) was in Colorado) so all C could do was worry, stress, and shut out every one else around her because she could not help her friend, could not save the M from herself.
The thing about these folks is that they really do narrow in on the weakness and vulnerability of the ones they are working over. C had a very close family member take his life when C was thirteen and had been there when he was found. C always felt like she was responsible because she was so close to him that she should have know. It haunted C through her entire, to such a degree that the only reason she stopped trying to take her own life was when she had her son. So of course the messages and pictures haunted and tormented C to no end, so much so she would tear herself, her life, and her own loving family, apart to try to save the friend.
It got to the point that M had caused so much rift between her father and his wife of over fifteen years because he of course wanted to save his little girl every time something came up, that they were nearly divorced last time I heard anything about it.
M"s partner moved several states away to get distance after being accused of awful things. However M had friends in the same town and the girlfriend was threatened and tormented by several in the community. I reached the end of my patience between C's persistence in placing M as the most important thing in her life, far above myself and the son we were raising, to the payday loans C took behind my back to take care of this or that for M while C and I never knew how or if we were going to make rent that month.
I finally had it after she started lying about me to my partner and the blame and doubt C had of course was on me, and when C asked me to move across the country to live closer to M who caused destruction to any part of my life she could reach and torment to my family C and our son what could I do?
Her disease is like acid to anything she touches, but has everyone convinced she is the Midas touch instead.
I do consider myself lucky that I never felt like I could trust her, never felt like she was sincere or actually cared for my step son or C. That I could never believe a word she said.
I did feel like a monster when my gut and every bone in my body screamed at me that M was lying about having leukemia, I saw the last shreds of my faith and trust in C slip away while watching C go back and forth between us and her friend. M finally came up with some story about how it was not leukemia after nearly a year. No one was ever allowed to go with her, till her father took her to a cancer treatment center and paid for the treatment out of his pocket. She never had side effects from treatments, she would tell different friends different stories and different times or days for Dr. appointments and get medical facts very wrong when talking about it.

C and I let our selves lose so much over the way things worked out,

[Martina]

speaking of HIPAA..im not sure how serious it is taken here...i work for a pizza company...in less that a yr i received COMPLETE records on 2 different people from a mental health place in the town over from me,by fax...when i called to ask/inform them they were nonchalant,apologized and asked me to just shred them..didnt matter that i didnt have a shreddder


sorry for derail!

i found a bunch of medical paperwork including people's diagnosis codes and their social security numbers blowing along S. University in Ann Arbor some years ago. i picked it all up and took it to my office. i called the most likely source, and they had put a box of the stuff out on the street on a windy day. They seemed unconcerned, said the papers were duplicates that had been used for research.

re sociopaths, only one person, a relative though not a close one. He lived off women and was an alcoholic. He had no feelings of remorse about the people he hurt, including his sons.

It's scary the amount of narcissism that is out there. They aren't sociopaths, but they do a lot of harm. These people look and sound normal, but other people aren't that real to them. They are just tools to get the narcissist's needs met. If others aren't useful for that, then they can be treated in any way and it doesn't matter. i find these people pretty damned scary too. And their emotions, while intense, have a limited range. Anger and self-pity mixed with entitlement and scorn for others. i have so so learned to look for this profile. Oh yeah, and these folks, imo, have a distorted self-image. Their view of themselves is way different from how others see them.

On a more positive note, i teach in a high school, and my students seem to be very empathetic. They live hard lives, but they aren't hardened. It's good to see.

[AtLast]

speaking of HIPAA..im not sure how serious it is taken here...i work for a pizza company...in less that a yr i received COMPLETE records on 2 different people from a mental health place in the town over from me,by fax...when i called to ask/inform them they were nonchalant,apologized and asked me to just shred them..didnt matter that i didnt have a shreddder


sorry for derail!

This is very disturbing to hear about. Confidentiality of mental health records is very serious- and ought to be. Actually, any and all medical records. The person that faxed this really should have been prosecuted- and if a licensed clinician- had their license yanked.

What is so amazing is that those that "ought" to know better do this kind of stuff all the time! Someone with a valid clinical license can get into just about everything. And with the internet and hospital records, etc. being digitalized, it has become very easy to get medical, including mental health information about people.

[Lizzy]

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

WOW!!!SO MANY OF THESE THINGS RELATE TO THE PERSON I HAVE BEEN DATING ON AND OFF FOR ALL THESE YEARS!! I will say not all of the above information applies but a lot of it does and this information has given me so much to think about. My son was diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder and I have been so focused on his well being I guess I have forgotten to look our for myself.Thank you for this post.

[Sassy]

I was married to madness for 7 years.
We're divorced now. (HappyDanceOMG!)
To this day our mutual friends and his family don't believe his the person I say he is -- no matter what I say, even when I try to tell them about the gun in my face and the blank look in his eyes. To them he is charming, witty, sociable, compassionate.
But I watched behind the scenes for almost a decade as he struggled to understand people and came up with intricate gestures/displays to put on in order to convince people he "cared"
He never accepts responsibility for his actions and is painfully passive aggressive. (I endured weeks of silent treatment for the smallest slights -- not loading the dishwasher "correctly"... really.)
He refuses to discuss his "feelings" -- these days I understand he just didn't have any to discuss -- or thoughts unless he thinks he will come off sounding intelligent and "win" the conversation.
He has no conscience. I've seen him lie and steal without blinking.
He disparaged every belief I held. (I'm pagan. We're all evidently pacifist suckers in his eyes.) Insulted every family member I loved. (My dieing grandfather? WTF?) And attempted to destroy every friendship I built. All the while putting on an amazing front to his friends and family, making himself look nearly heroic for all of the trials he endured "for the sake of our relationship."

:|

If you find yourself on the crazy train I only have one piece of advice. Get off the train. You can't fix them. You can't save them. You can't even save the other passengers. Jump and run. Cut ties. Stop, drop and roll. Save yourself!

:praying:

[MysticOceansFL]

I've worked with a few when I was a correctional officer and I'm so glad I'm outta that field of work!

[FeminineAllure]

Yes I have met a few sociopaths. They are long gone from my life now thank the universe.

[atomiczombie]

My older brother (by 4 years) is one of these people. I grew up under his thumb and my folks left the two of us alone a lot, assuming he would look after me since he was older. The opposite was always the case. We are estranged now.

[luv2luvgirls]

I have met a few in my time ...I also have noticed when you get space from different relationships regardless if they were romantic or just friendly....you can look back and be like woah! when you are going thru it it seems normal does that make any sense lol?

[JustJo]

I have met a few in my time ...I also have noticed when you get space from different relationships regardless if they were romantic or just friendly....you can look back and be like woah! when you are going thru it it seems normal does that make any sense lol?

It makes a ton of sense. Most of these people are experts at making everyone around them feel like "the crazy one." They depend on it...and work that weakness.

I agree with Sassy...the only "solution" is distance. Just run....fast and far and don't look back.

[luv2luvgirls]

It makes a ton of sense. Most of these people are experts at making everyone around them feel like "the crazy one." They depend on it...and work that weakness.

I agree with Sassy...the only "solution" is distance. Just run....fast and far and don't look back.

exactly!! run run run lol :D and go whew...

they do make you feel like it was all your fault,just like your the crazy one right on Jo! said it perfect

[NJFemmie]

I've come across more than I care to admit in my lifetime - but more recently, a friend of ours dated this guy who stated he worked for Homeland Security. As a former employee of a federally mandated program that dealt directly with various military branches but more specifically, the US Coast Guard and Homeland Security - I found it interesting that he couldn't answer basic questions.

Mare and I repeatedly told our friend that something was wrong with this guy. Even in the very beginning, I asked for his birth data and pulled up a quick astrology chart. One of the things I predicted was that he was living a double life - and sure enough - it was all that and more.

To make a long story short - turned out he was not an employee of Homeland Security. The DHS badge he was carrying was a fake that was purchased on the internet. All the DHS clothes he wore were also purchased online. He was in the military, but nothing to the extent of what he claimed. He made up elaborate stories of how he flew with a president and engaged in various crime investigations. He even tried to tell her that he was involved in a shooting where a young boy was shot - and that he was the one who shot him. All of his stories never made sense to me and put him in a timeline that didn't fit. Besides the fact that the military would not have been involved in the specific shooting he claimed to have been involved in. All he was was security at a shipyard.

He was also married and had a baby recently with another woman, even though he stated to our friend that he was unmarried. When his wife came by his house one day while our friend was there - he tried to tell our friend that she was an ex girlfriend who tried to claim that the baby she was carrying was his and it wasn't. It was. In fact, during the baby's christening - he left early to take our friend out to a concert. He was also only there a few hours when the baby was born - I think to take her out to dinner. He also told her that he "dated" some girl down south who had a baby, and even though the child wasn't his - he was supporting it because he felt bad that this woman was raising a child on her own. Turned out to be an ex wife and the baby was his.

He never let her come to his house - and he was always "working late". Everything he told her became more grandiose and unbelievable and we insisted that maybe she should show up at his door and demand to be let in. She never did that, but if she had, she would have discovered that he was married - as there was evidence of this all over the house. The wife, while pregnant, was temporarily staying with her parents that lived close by.

What ultimately led him to get busted was a text message that she received from his wife. Friends that were with her at the time of the text insisted that she meet with her and find out what was going on. That's when it all unraveled. Our friend even went to court proceedings on behalf of the wife. They have since divorced and last I heard, he was still playing a game of push/pull with the ex wife and child.

Another thing that was unsettling, was that this guy had several unregistered guns in his house and in his truck. They have since been confiscated. There is A LOT more to this story - but we are just happy this psycho is out of her life and she has since moved on - and we won't allow her to bring anyone here until we feel comfortable enough with whoever it is she dates.

[Softly]

It's a very sad mental illness.

Run away and never look back. I dealt with threats of suicide, ruining my life, excessive lies and lost a shit ton of money all because I was in love. Its even more sad when you realize that they never loved you, only what you could do for them.

Thankfully, I came out of it on my feet and learned a huge lesson.

[Sun]

My first experience dating someone that I met online was a total mind F*** in that she lied about everything. The woman said that she was single, 10 years younger, was enslaved to her successful sister as the babysitter of her sisters 4 kids, when she was not flying for a major airline as a flight attendant. Here is where laws were broken and this went way overboard: she sent me pics of her babysitter who was an attractive 15 yr old, whom she had styled up to look mid 20's. Hair, makeup, clothing. Wow. It was a very amazing job. Law #2 broken: She rented a mailbox under her assumed name and accepted gifts from me. Fraud. Child endangerment. The list goes on. When I found out that she was actually married to a man and had 2 kids of her own I was floored, but she claimed to have been in an abusive relationship, depressed and suffering from borderline personality disorder so I fell for the excuses and tried to be forgiving. Mind you I was recently out of a long term relationship and really liked this woman so I bought the bait.


My one request of her was to get psych help and get on meds if needed because part of her lie was that she had been abducted as a child and molested. The story was elaborate, and she claimed that it was "all over the news" at the time. This was very much pre-internet and news archives are hard to access but I tried and found no such information regarding a high profile abduction at the time that she claimed that this occurred. I made excuses because I refused to believe that anyone would make up a story claiming to have been abducted and she gave me graphic details. The details included her cousin being raped. They were supposedly young girls. This same woman by the way freaked out over the concept of any Butch claiming to be a "Daddy" and having a "Daddy/girl" dynamic, so I suspected that there was some deep trauma there and as is my inherent style, I wanted to help. Ive since backed away from the "rescuer" mentality with the help of a good therapist and the CODA book.


I do not wish to trash this woman or speak ill of her nor do I wish to "out" her, but I must say that when she came clean with me I could not let go of the "abduction" fraud and asked only that she get some pysch help for what seemed to be obvious trauma. She promised to do so and then refused. I tried really hard to be forgiving and focus on what I saw as really important stuff such as her fun personality, and so many things that we had in common. But faking an abduction and molestation, as well as involving a teenager in her game went way beyond bored bisexual housewife playing in an AOL chatroom. This was emotionally terrifying to me on many levels. As I am not a Pscyh professional I will not assume to name the illness that this woman suffers from. Labels get tossed around too easily. I will say that this situation made me aware of how some married bi women struggle with identity and will do almost anything to find someone on the queer spectrum to connect with.

Many people have excuses for their behavior such as feeling trapped in a marriage and so on, but if a person truly has mental health issues and works on them, God bless them. Those that blame others for their behavior and refuse treatment seem like they are just potential loose cannons. They look for people who have big hearts and are compassionate, people who will listen and want to help. My advice to all is to proceed with caution and dont believe everything that you hear. See with your own eyes and believe with your own heart.

[musicman]

Oh, I know of one. nuff said.

[Sun]

Adding....the way that I learned that the "abduction & molestation" story was a fraud was that she told me "go ask my sister and she will tell you what happened". The sister is a PhD in education and I was hopeful that she and I could have a dialogue about how this woman suffered from the abduction. So I did. The sister looked at me and said "My sister is a pathological liar and needs to be hospitalized!!" she was in a rage. I was beyond humiliated. When I confronted the woman who I will refer to as "M" (no relationship to her real name" with this utter humiliation I was told that she only made the story up because she believed that my "ex partner" had invented a story about being molested just to keep me in the relationship. My mind was toasted. I did understand fully that I was dealing with some sort of mental illness, no idea what kind, but I was so devastated and sick over this that I could barely function. In my mind, detaching enough to invent a crime that so many people suffer from was unreal to me. Again, my denial kicked in and I had to find some justifiable way to make sense of this (co-dependent behavior to the max). It was as though I had found someone wonderful and then started to uncover so much deception that I did not want it to be real. When I shared this with a close friend her only response was "run". Humiliation is a form of abuse and while I do believe that M was humiliated as a child, as part of an abusive parent/child relationship, I had hoped that she would get help. M has 2 great kids that would never believe that their Mother was capable of this. The really scary part however is that when she spoke to me, justifying the abduction/molestation lie, she seemed emotionally detached.

Trauma is a fascinating thing in that any new trauma can bring up past trauma so I do have compassion for people that act out in trauma. M had a huge fear of losing me once she realized that I was much more than the booty call that she had logged online to find. The whole situation was very sad. Tragic even and it has impacted my ability to trust strangers. Today I am much more cautious and also very curious as to what could have been had she received good Psychological care as she had vowed to.

[NJFemmie]

What's interesting is - when you deal with someone like this - especially within a close intimate relationship - you start to question your own sanity. "How did you not see this coming? How could you let this happen? Why didn't you see the red flags?" They are so good at what they do, you don't see all of this until it's too late - then it all makes sense. They damage you, even when you think you aren't damaged at all.

[Scota_Parisi]

Interesting topic. Would have to say yes to that question. And the internet hasn't helped people stay safe either. But, I did find an interesting article on the net.

Really, pay attention the warning signs. The last one kinda caught me when I was at a serious low point, eventually I saw those flags.

http://www.drjoecarver.com/clients/49355/File/IdentifyingLosers.html


The part that speaks volumes is here:

"The Loser" may have two distinct reputations - a group of individuals who will give you glowing reports and a group that will warn you that they are serious trouble. If you ask ten people about a new restaurant - five say it's wonderful and five say it's a hog pit - you clearly understand that there's some risk involved in eating there. "The Loser" may actually brag about their reputation as a "butt kicker", "womanizer", "hot temper" or "being crazy". They may tell you stories where other's have called them crazy or suggested that they receive professional help. Pay attention to the reputation. Reputation is the public perception of an individual's behavior. If the reputation has two sides, good and bad, your risk is high. You will be dealing with the bad side once the honeymoon is over in the relationship. With severe behavior problems, "The Loser" will be found to have almost no friends, just acquaintances. Emotionally healthy and moral individuals will not tolerate friendships with losers that treat others so badly. If you find yourself disliking the friends of "The Loser", it's because they operate the same way he or she does and you can see it in them.

[J. Mason]

Oh yeah I know of a few.

[T D]

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/teleg.htm


http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm


These are a couple of interesting things that I've discovered in researching personality disorders. Some people say "Oh, I have the craziest mother!" in almost a cute way. I say it because I mean it. The woman is dangerous.

She was diagnosed at one point, as we were kicked out of mandated family therapy with a team of psychiatrists at one of the best teaching hospitals in the state. The things that she has done in her life, to her family and still today are just so unbelievable that people tend to actually NOT believe it. For the first time in our lives, professionals have SEEMED to catch on and something might be done before she kills someone again ( kills someone again - I wish that wasn't true. But it is - she has killed once already.)

It's only by actually interacting with her for more than a week, that you realize you are dealing with someone who is an expert manipulator devoid of true emotion. If you are invested with her at any level, it's impossible not to sense that something is very wrong. She has no friends, can't hold a job and carries herself like royalty.

I think that when we think of psychopaths we think of Ted Bundy or other serial killers. We don't think of the people we work with, live with or meet on the street. They usually appear normal and the only way you can tell is by the path of destruction left in their wake. They are expert cons, who lie when it's easier to tell the truth. They use people to their gain and people who believe them, they consider foolish/gullible. They have the ability to even pass lie detector tests.

My brother and I have always known that she was this way. She has done things and gotten away with things that are both horrific and shocking. When it seems like "FINALLY" she is going to be locked away forever - poof - she seems to walk away unscathed.

One of the more bizarre characteristics of psychopath's is that things that would normally cause people great angst, like homelessness, a horrible life event, major disease, ect. doesn't come with the emotion that you would expect. They are only able to parrot the emotion they think they should feel, they don't actually feel it. So it doesn't effect them the way it would you or I.

And there is no treatment. They are incapable of looking at themselves and blame everyone else for their problems, arrests, difficulty or situation. There is no medication because there is no chemical imbalance. Some psychiatrists say they simply have no soul.

The statistics I'm reading claim that one in nine or ten is a psychopath. So it's likely that we know one (or ARE one lol but if you have the ability to question yourself (I have read) that almost certainly disqualifies you.) I know that how I was raised screwed me up for life - I have had to learn social skills that other people take for granted. I married a psychopath at 17 and divorced shortly thereafter. Even after years of therapy, I lived a "sane" relationship with someone who was unmedicated and bipolar for several years. Insanity can seem normal to me. I have to constantly watch and question myself in a way that others don't need to.

I wonder if anyone else has had the experience of living with or knowing someone who is a psychopath/sociopath? (most psychiatrists consider the terms interchangeable.) I wonder if there is way to ever actually protect ourselves or defend from such an invisible threat?

Not only have I known people who fit this criteria, but I've also been involved with them.... Needless to say I'm now incredibly careful who I date, talk to, or befriend. It really shrunk my life in a lot of negative ways, which I find very sad.

Interesting topic!

[NJFemmie]

If the reputation has two sides, good and bad, your risk is high. You will be dealing with the bad side once the honeymoon is over in the relationship. With severe behavior problems, "The Loser" will be found to have almost no friends, just acquaintances. Emotionally healthy and moral individuals will not tolerate friendships with losers that treat others so badly. If you find yourself disliking the friends of "The Loser", it's because they operate the same way he or she does and you can see it in them.

One comment I'd like to make here is that it is not always possible to determine what type of relationship this "loser" has with other people right off the bat. Take for instance, the long distance relationship - where not being around this person makes it very easy for them to camouflage.

Most, if not all, "buy" their relationships in one form or another - and to the outside world - that is difficult to see until you are actually in it to see it. Those on the receiving end of this "buying" will claim that this person is "too nice" to be anything other than exemplary. Granted, they have a different investment in knowing this person than "you" (the sincere) would - which makes determining the healthy and moral individuals that surround them another hard call to make. They could be just as bad. "Birds of a feather...." It takes time to get to know them as well - and by then it's usually too late.

[Amber2010]

The person in my life that has this disorder is my oldest daughter. I saw it very early on in her life. I felt like there was always a tug a war with good and evil. I was always trying to get her to see the way things should be and she always took the path of destruction and pain. The Pathological liar that was in her. I started taking her to shrinks by the time she was 9 years old. After 6 months the doctor told me he did not see any lies coming from her. It must be me. She was that good. She ran away at 17 with a 26 year old and had a baby. I looked everywhere for her. Spent any time I wasn't working on the road with her picture and flyers and talked to law enforcement. When I finally found her I got to meet my little granddaughter. After a year of thinking well maybe she is finally at peace and happy my granddaughter started talking and was telling me things that were happening to her. She was being molested by my daughters boyfriend. I made the mistake of talking with my daughter of what I knew and sure enough she had the police at my place accusing me of doing it. As we all know in this case you are guilty until you can prove your Innocence. I did after spending everything I had on lawyers. I now realize I can not have this person in my life. She knows I am the only one who sees through her and she hates that. I will always love her but I must not let her hurt me or my other children ever again. It is the hardest thing I have ever done to let go. You want to be there and help always but sometimes you have to just put it in the Lords hands.

[Scorp]

I'm reading a lot of the posts and so many of these qualities/details are familiar with people I've encountered over the course of the years. Whether it be personally/professionally and even online. Sad, but true.

I think the human race in general have also encountered such observations.

Thankfully when I sense any of the above, I put my guard up. In the end my gut is always right and I'm glad I have that ability. I try and warn people about others who have such characteristics, but that can come off like it's "me" have a problem with those individuals and I may end up looking like a troublemaker. All I can do is say it once as a "heads up" and that's that. In time what usually happens is I'm told "you were right about so-in-so"...

I have a sibling who has always had technique of being manipulative and a habitual liar. I need to keep my distance because it's very unhealthy to be around and they cause drama and believe their own lies and try using reverse psychology and they constantly play victim to everything in their life. It's very draining and I have to be a certain way with them and it in their mind it may come off as though I'm naive. Let's just I absorb and observe everything and I'm smarter than that and know better. Never underestimate me. ;)

[Massive]

In all honesty, one of my best friends is borderline sociopathic, and I wouldn't change him for the world, because he is open and honest about it with everyone, he is the sweetest guy I know, and he tries so hard to fight against it and he knows that when he has an episode to just take a step back and he does listen to friends who give advice and keep him calm and centred. I can say, hand on my heart, that I love him regardless of what he may have to deal with in his life, he's honest and nothing but sincere and genuine, I feel blessed having him in my life, he's part of my chosen Family and I would die for him, as he would for me.

[Scota_Parisi]

In the end my gut is always right and I'm glad I have that ability. I try and warn people about others who have such characteristics, but that can come off like it's "me" have a problem with those individuals and I may end up looking like a troublemaker. All I can do is say it once as a "heads up" and that's that. In time what usually happens is I'm told "you were right about so-in-so".... ;)



The first time I encountered an individual who tried to warn me about someone, I laughed it off. At the time I was a whole 20 years wise into the world. The price I've paid for not listening, was a high one that almost cost me my sanity. For a long time life was hard.

Warning others, not an easy thing. They don't often listen. But I take heart, knowing that there are resources online.

People just need to know that they are out there. This one is pretty thorough:

http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

At least knowing what the pitfalls are out there in the road, can always help a gal. Think of it as "defensive romance."

[always2late]

Oh I had a doozy of an experience with a sociopath! It happened several years ago and went on for years! It was one of the most insane episodes I have ever experienced in my life.

Several years ago, I was involved in a relationship (neither of the people I am speaking of are on this site). He met a woman and the two of them became friends...she was involved with someone else, and at first, I saw nothing amiss with the friendship. Shortly thereafter, she began complaining to him about her partner...that her partner was abusive etc..and it seemed like he was spending all his time dealing with her "crisis" (there was a new one every day). This made me uncomfortable, and I told him so. He swore nothing was going on with the two of them...that they were just friends. And SHE also sent me an email, stating that she respected our relationship, and valued him as a friend, and that I had nothing to worry about....famous last words, right? lol

Anyway, she broke up with her partner (who apparently had NO idea hy was "abusive" (according to her)..and was completely shocked when she left)...and that's when the fun really started! Of course, I found out that she and my partner were not just "friends"...that it had crossed the line into the inappropriate (she was sending him naked pictures right around the same time she was sending me those glowing emails about how she "respected" our relationship). Naturally, this was not wholly her doing...he shared in the blame, and I am not one to totally point the finger at the femme...it takes two to tango, right? So, I ended it with him. Now, none of this is all that uncommon I suppose. I am sure that there are many of us here that have experienced this or something like it in our lifetime. However, this is where the typical screwed up drama veered off into the insane.

He apparently did not want us to end, and therefore, would not commit to her. Her response to this was to go on the attack....against me. And this is where the sociopathic/psychotic behavior began. She invented other email profiles, and began sending him letters about my character...some of these letters were from femmes I had "wronged", others from the butches I was "cheating" on him with, and still others from well meaning folks just trying to "warn him" that I was no good. She created whole chats between me and these other "people" and sent them to him. She created text messages, supposedly sent to her from me, calling her all kinds of vile things (apparently I guess she assumed this would paint me in a very bad light as a horrible person...forgetting I guess, that I never had her phone number, and that all the texts she showed him were saved in her drafts). She also created emails from me to her along the same vein...using an email address I no longer used. She even claimed that she had a friend who was a "computer expert" and could verify that the emails came from my address (my home address that is).

This did not go on for weeks, or even months...this went on for years! I have no idea why she decided to target me when I was out of the picture. I can only assume that her hatred toward me was motivated by the fact that he wouldn't commit to her...and she saw me as the cause. In between the malicious emails and texts were the threats of suicide, the never-ending crisis to gain attention, the constant claims of "victimization" at my hands...it was totally and completely insane and I've never experienced anything quite like it in my life. In the intervening years, I have met other people who have had experiences with this same woman...and have found that she completely fits the profile of a sociopath...the lies, the malicious behavior, the adoption of varying personalities to fit the situation and/or person she is with....the list goes on and on. Fortunately, I am no longer the object of her "attention"...and can only hope that no one else is suffering the ill effects of her disorder.

[Softly]

Advice!

Keep everything!! Emails, pictures, texts, chat logs.
They sometimes pop up when they get bored and the more you have to go to the cops with the better.

Keep it forever. No joke.

[Quintease]

"The Loser" may have two distinct reputations - a group of individuals who will give you glowing reports and a group that will warn you that they are serious trouble. If you ask ten people about a new restaurant - five say it's wonderful and five say it's a hog pit - you clearly understand that there's some risk involved in eating there. "The Loser" may actually brag about their reputation as a "butt kicker", "womanizer", "hot temper" or "being crazy". They may tell you stories where other's have called them crazy or suggested that they receive professional help. Pay attention to the reputation. Reputation is the public perception of an individual's behavior. If the reputation has two sides, good and bad, your risk is high. You will be dealing with the bad side once the honeymoon is over in the relationship. With severe behavior problems, "The Loser" will be found to have almost no friends, just acquaintances. Emotionally healthy and moral individuals will not tolerate friendships with losers that treat others so badly. If you find yourself disliking the friends of "The Loser", it's because they operate the same way he or she does and you can see it in them.

I nearly choked on my coffee when I read this. Someone actually pointed this out to me when I first started dating my loser, only I ignored it. It did all seem very weird, so weird that I ignored it thinking there must be a perfectly rational explanation for it... which there WAS as it turned out :rolleyes:

[Tawse]

You know... I didn't realize until I read this whole thread that I'd been involved with a psychopath...

I figured my closest run in was with the narcissistic mother - but nope. I've been duped by a psychopath as well... *shakes head. Thank god she's in the past.

[Reader]

The thing about most sociopaths, those with personality disorders or character disorders and the like is that they either do not know they are ill, or they know but are excellent liars without a conscience. They lie even to themselves.

As someone dear to me used to say "Crazy people don't know they're crazy. It's up to you to avoid them."

[Dominique]

Every time I see this thread pop up, I think Scott Peterson.

[Reader]

Every time I see this thread pop up, I think Scott Peterson.

Yeah, and I think of OJ.

[Nat]

Every time I see this thread pop up, I think Scott Peterson.

Is he a sociopath or a narcissist? Can you be both?

[Reader]

Is he a sociopath or a narcissist? Can you be both?

...it sure seems like it, sadly.

[Tawse]

The thing about most sociopaths, those with personality disorders or character disorders and the like is that they either do not know they are ill, or they know but are excellent liars without a conscience. They lie even to themselves.

As someone dear to me used to say "Crazy people don't know they're crazy. It's up to you to avoid them."


Couple of things - God I hope you don't include BiPolars in your category of Personality / Character Disorders (don't believe you do, but you never know! lol)


And I would argue every person who lives and breathes is innately skilled at lying to themselves...

[Quintease]

This (http://www.jonronson.com/psycho.html) is a really well written book actually.

<-- picked it up today

[Reader]

Couple of things - God I hope you don't include BiPolars in your category of Personality / Character Disorders (don't believe you do, but you never know! lol)


And I would argue every person who lives and breathes is innately skilled at lying to themselves...

Hi Tawse, no, I do not believe that Bi-Polar is a Personality or Character Disorder. But, I'm not a diagnostic clinician and I don't feel like looking it up. But, I'm fairly sure it isn't.

You are 100% correct that 'every person who lives and breathes is innately skilled at lying to themselves.'

You are correct.

[MsTinkerbelly]

The thing about most sociopaths, those with personality disorders or character disorders and the like is that they either do not know they are ill, or they know but are excellent liars without a conscience. They lie even to themselves.

As someone dear to me used to say "Crazy people don't know they're crazy. It's up to you to avoid them."

I think that unless this is your field of specialty you should be very careful making generalizations. You are coming across as extremely offensive to someone who struggles daily with BPD, is not without a conscience, and is not a liar. I do see that you say "most"; was that an attempt to to not be called out on this tripe?

[MsTinkerbelly]

Hi Tawse, no, I do not believe that Bi-Polar is a Personality or Character Disorder. But, I'm not a diagnostic clinician and I don't feel like looking it up. But, I'm fairly sure it isn't.

You are 100% correct that 'every person who lives and breathes is innately skilled at lying to themselves.'

You are correct.

As someone who has run mental health residential facilities, I can say with 100 percent certainty that bipolar illness is a chemical imbalance in the brain..nothing more nothing less.

[Sassy]

My BFF has bipolar. With therapy and meds it is treatable and manageable. Though, it often takes the health practitioners time to find the correct medicinal cocktail for that person's particular brain chemistry. ... Also, it usually takes several years of ups and downs before the patient finally resolves that treatment is a lifetime commitment. (The most difficult part of treating bipolar is their lack of compliance.)

[Tawse]

My BFF has bipolar. With therapy and meds it is treatable and manageable. Though, it often takes the health practitioners time to find the correct medicinal cocktail for that person's particular brain chemistry. ... Also, it usually takes several years of ups and downs before the patient finally resolves that treatment is a lifetime commitment. (The most difficult part of treating bipolar is their lack of compliance.)

Am currently on year... crap I forgot... uhhhh 2! Spent 1.5 years with gradually increasing anxiety that we finally figured out was due to one of the meds I was taking. Have been anxiety free now for... 4 months! yay! (kinda scary thinking one tiny pill can make your brain think the way I was thinking for that year and a half... very very scary actually)

And yes - compliance can be tough... it's amazing what the brain will try to convince you of.

it's funny - I was reading an article about wheat allergies just yesterday and one of the things mentioned was that allergies to wheat may cause some symptoms that may be linked to a person having mental illness. interesting - problem is some people with mental illness may read that and decide they don't need their meds all they need to do is stop eating wheat...

But anyway - I now return to our regularly scheduled socio/psychopathic discussion... sorry for the jack :)

[Sun]

I actually came back to this thread to see if I could pull down my post and realize that I cant do that. The woman that I posted about is someone that I love and the initial "meeting" was indeed traumatizing for me and it colored my future behavior in a negative way. I'm not proud of that. In the past I had only shared this story with a few close friends because I needed support. Ive never put this story out on a public website before, nor have I ever posted a negative word about this woman in a way that would cause her humiliation.

The reality of my story is that yes this did in fact happen to me but I have to admit that the woman who did this was losing control of her life and was pre "nervous breakdown" when this all occured. She was looking for a way out of a life that she felt trapped in. When I posted about my experience I had been triggered and never thought about hurting her if she ever saw the post. Huge mistake because I do not set out to intentionally hurt anyone. Sometimes I am emotionally "rectionary" and then regret my behavior later on. In fact I am sure that if the woman that I wrote about who I refer to as "M" (no relationship to her real name) could take back every cruel thing that she did to me back then, she would. Ive had a hard lesson recently in being unforgiving and it stings. I need to learn to be "more" forgiving. Especially with people that I love. Holding on to resentment has not served me well, in fact it has only helped to destroy a reltionship with a woman that I love.

I'm not a victim, I'm a survivor in many realms and thats just keeping it real. Because I was hurt by an event does not give me permission to hurt others, including the woman that hurt me. Some switch in my brain flipped and I became more detached whem someone would do me wrong and let anger become my defense mechanism. In my centered, best self, I am a peaceful happy person and I want simple things out of life. I want a relationship that is healthy, a family life and a future that is devoid of drama of any sort. In that space, I am willing to do all of the hard work that comes with these goals. Holding on to the past..especially the past that I wrote about is not what I want for my life.

By posting my very personal story that left me very wounded I put myself back into a victim space and did more damage than good. Ive now committed to leaving the past in the past and not resurrecting this story ever again. The woman did this to me was in great pain, she was suffering, she had no way out. Perhaps by finding me and being loved even after I found out the truth, I was throwing her a lifeline. If this had not occured and I had not reached out to her even in her false identity perhaps she would have taken her own life and that would have been a great loss because she is a beautiful person who was just looking to be loved and feeling trapped in a marriage that was unhealthy. It was better to have met her along the way and know her than to have never met her and never have known her. We all make mistakes..I have made many. I have hurt the woman that I love because I was hurt in the past. This is not something that I am proud of and it is hard to admit. I justified lying because I was lied to. I did not feel that I could trust anyone anymore because my trust was violated. This is not "right action" and I am not cut out for hanging on to negativity. What I love is laughter and fun, light spiritually connected living. As a result of the past I screwed up something beautiful and I can only hope that one day I too will be forgiven and have another chance to make things right.

As I say, we all make mistakes and for me, posting something negative for the world to see, even though I protected her identity, was just wrong. It is a beautiful thing to be loved and to love. Sometimes we are imperfect and need help, counseling, care for depression or illness. That does not make someone a bad person.

Thanks for reading along.

In Peace and love,

Sun

[MzzBehaving]

sociopath can be a narcissist then yes I sure do know one..

[moxie]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not the same as sociopathy or psychopathy. Being diagnosed with a personality disorder does not put a person in the same realm as someone with sociopathy or psychopathy.
Personality Disorders are not the same as Bipolar Disorder.

[Glenn]

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not the same as sociopathy or psychopathy. Being diagnosed with a personality disorder does not put a person in the same realm as someone with sociopathy or psychopathy.
Personality Disorders are not the same as Bipolar Disorder.

I dunno puregrr, is'nt antisocial a personality disorder also? I always thought of it as being on a spectrum with a sociopath being the ultimate narcissistic personality. popcorn- bs in psych.

[moxie]

I dunno puregrr, is'nt antisocial a personality disorder also? I always thought of it as being on a spectrum with a sociopath being the ultimate narcissistic personality. popcorn- bs in psych.


Yes, there is an Antisocial Personality Disorder, but there are also others, 9 more if I remember correctly (I don't have my DSM at home). They are grouped into diagnostic clusters based on traits. And just because someone has been diagnosed with a personality disorder it doesn't mean they have psychopathic/sociopathic traits. It's kinda like saying that just because someone has auditory hallucinations, they must have schizophrenia.

There is a lot of stigma with mental illness. There are so many people with mental health problems that don't get help because of the judgment and assumptions people make.

When I tell people I am therapist, one of the first things I am most always told/asked is "Oh, that must be scary. Have you ever been assaulted/hurt/threatened/creeped out/etc etc.?" That's because of the stigma.

I could go on forever about it, but I'll shut up. :)

[imperfect_cupcake]

also, not all psychopaths kill/attack people. There's a great program on this how nature plus nurture = how it manifests. One of the people who found the "gene" and brain print activity map for psychopathy did a test on his family and found that he carried the gene AND the brain map print. He had to sit down and think about how this is reflected in his behaviour. But he has no violent tendencies. He chalks that up to having a good childhood with no abuse and happy, well functioning parents.

It's on Horizon. "the moral molecule" - I am irritated with their sensationalising of it (using the word "evil") but other than that irritation, I thought it was good.

[julieisafemme]

Thank you very much for this post. I have OCD and it is often troubling to me when people try to diagnose someone else or assume things about me because I have a mental illness. The stigma is very real. I am very open about my OCD because I am not ashamed of it and I want people to understand that stereotypes about it and other mental illness so rarely touch on the real pain that they cause.


Yes, there is an Antisocial Personality Disorder, but there are also others, 9 more if I remember correctly (I don't have my DSM at home). They are grouped into diagnostic clusters based on traits. And just because someone has been diagnosed with a personality disorder it doesn't mean they have psychopathic/sociopathic traits. It's kinda like saying that just because someone has auditory hallucinations, they must have schizophrenia.

There is a lot of stigma with mental illness. There are so many people with mental health problems that don't get help because of the judgment and assumptions people make.

When I tell people I am therapist, one of the first things I am most always told/asked is "Oh, that must be scary. Have you ever been assaulted/hurt/threatened/creeped out/etc etc.?" That's because of the stigma.

I could go on forever about it, but I'll shut up. :)

[WolfyOne]

Yes, I grew up with one
He's in prison now for murders he says he didn't commit with 3 others
It was long ago, the others have all been put to death
They never had enough on him to put him to death, but he is serving a life sentence for being involved
They all said he was their ringleader
He's the kind of person that can lie to your face, believe what he says and make you believe it, too
Sadly he's been that way forever

[Soon]

IT HAPPENED TO ME: I WAS MARRIED TO A SOCIOPATH (http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-me/it-happened-me-i-was-married-sociopath)

[Quintease]

IT HAPPENED TO ME: I WAS MARRIED TO A SOCIOPATH (http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-me/it-happened-me-i-was-married-sociopath)

My God.

It scares me that I dated a psycopath/sociopath, I will never know which one she was. To this day it freaks me out that I put myself in danger for so long, unable to see what was happening right in front of my face.

I feel sorry for whoever's life she is messing up now. Really really sorry.

[laruss]

My biological father is a sociopath and for years I actually thought I was the damaged one, the unlovable one. He was really good at not taking responsibility for anything and turning it around on to others.

It took only a few months of his living with us when my children were young for me to figure out it wasn't me, it was him. He is so ill I can never have him in my life again.

I am quite sure in his new life that no one would even know I existed, and that is probably for the best.

[Softly]

IT HAPPENED TO ME: I WAS MARRIED TO A SOCIOPATH (http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-me/it-happened-me-i-was-married-sociopath)

so sad! I am glad she got away

[thedivahrrrself]

I was also married to a sociopath. Never officially diagnosed - maybe she had another personality disorder - but something was definitely WRONG with her.

We met, she was charming, things moved very quickly. She was a genius - MENSA level - but she could never hold down a job because she had these intense conflicts with her superiors. I began to suspect she had sociopathic tendencies because she seemed to feel a genuine malice towards all humanity.

After the illusion was gone (I spent 8 years with her), I found out things that shocked me. She built bombs as a kid. She stole thousands of dollars from me. She could lie without batting an eye, and she made it very believable. She was incredibly manipulative. I always felt like I was to blame for any wrong I caught her doing. She could fake crying as easily as she lied. She'd been married before, and literally only got married to show up an ex who had hurt her by marrying a man. She spent tons of money on this "revenge" wedding, which lasted less than a month when the poor girl realized X had no feelings for her. She would lie to me about getting mugged when she had actually been gambling. She would lie to me about her day, saying all these horrible things happened when I found out later she had just been sitting around playing video games all day. I would cater to her needs to try and make her feel better, and as it turns out, that was all she wanted.

I feel sad for her sometimes because she seems frustrated by the fact that she cannot really connect with people. When we broke up, she called all her "friends", but none of them would even let her sleep on their couch. She never really bonded with her parents or even anyone in her family, save her grandmother, who she sees very rarely. When she found out I had arranged a date with someone after she moved away, she went out and got a girlfriend the next day. She texts me things like "Why do I always make girls cry?" to which I can only respond "because you have no emotions". She was always baffled by mine when we were together. When I would cry, she would just stare at me, puzzled, with no instinct whatsoever to do anything to comfort me.

I'm not an expert. I know many of you are - does this sound like a sociopath to you?

[rustedrims]

I dont know if i should let out a sigh of relief or {sorry getting graphic} throw up in my lap everything i have eaten for the last 3 years.It just sickens me why my sister is doing this to me.I am completely devistated and heart broken over it all.I spent the night in jail and i have a Lawyer now.I am in this a little over $2,000 to keep myself out of jail.On my 3rd Protection Order and have 10 days of jail hanging over my head until April 11th 2013.Had to plea to something that i did not do to end this bullshit.Just because she had a bad day.Well she had another bad day and got me again and back in the court system.Again something that i did not do.I promise you all i did not do what i am accused of.

I found this thread yesterday and i read everything.I have used the word "charming" and her being a "bully".When i saw those 2 words that described her and the hair raised up on my arms.She is truly a horrible person and everyone in the family does not want her around them or at their houses.She is homeless now because of herself.

I will be back in here in a few days after i get my thoughts together and post.I need some good advise how to beat her at her own game.She has quite a story.What i saw in her house was horrifying and burned into my brain.I will never forget what i saw.Very sad.

I am trying to handle this on my own but i think i need help.

s.

[KayCee]

..unfortunately many in my life.

[mariamma]

Hi RustedRims,
I do not know your sister and all the ramifications of your relationship however, you cannot beat any socio- psychopath at their game. They do not have the appropriate mirror neurons, oxytocin, safety, etc. in order to be 'normal'. About 1% of the population can be diagnosed with this disorder. The difference between those who have inadequate amounts and not are abusive and those who are is...trauma, neglect and abuse. Actually, abuse, trauma and neglect is a factor in over 90% of psych diagnosis. Meaning if there wasn't abuse, etc in the first place, there most likely would not be a psych diagnosis.
Maybe if your sister got treatment for her (probable) abuse she could get to the meat of the matter. But honestly, the best thing to do is just walk away. If there is a second instance where you have to go to jail...it may not be worth it for you in the long run. It usually is not worth is because of dopamine-related issues (addiction, entitlement, delusions, craving with an inability to release control, etc.) Delusions and dopamine is a huge thing (organic brain syndrome, Alzheimer's disease, schizophrenia). Meaning that one is sooo hyped up on their own dopamine, they become deluded.
Her delusions might be your saving grace meaning that if she reports random people of being stalkers (when she is) or abusive (when she is) then the police will take notice of that.
It really doesn't feel good to be in this situation though :( *hugs* Especially because family is involved. I wish you the best of luck
I dont know if i should let out a sigh of relief or {sorry getting graphic} throw up in my lap everything i have eaten for the last 3 years.It just sickens me why my sister is doing this to me.I am completely devistated and heart broken over it all.I spent the night in jail and i have a Lawyer now.I am in this a little over $2,000 to keep myself out of jail.On my 3rd Protection Order and have 10 days of jail hanging over my head until April 11th 2013.Had to plea to something that i did not do to end this bullshit.Just because she had a bad day.Well she had another bad day and got me again and back in the court system.Again something that i did not do.I promise you all i did not do what i am accused of.

I found this thread yesterday and i read everything.I have used the word "charming" and her being a "bully".When i saw those 2 words that described her and the hair raised up on my arms.She is truly a horrible person and everyone in the family does not want her around them or at their houses.She is homeless now because of herself.

I will be back in here in a few days after i get my thoughts together and post.I need some good advise how to beat her at her own game.She has quite a story.What i saw in her house was horrifying and burned into my brain.I will never forget what i saw.Very sad.

I am trying to handle this on my own but i think i need help.

s.

[mariamma]

I'm not an expert. I know many of you are - does this sound like a sociopath to you?
Not an expert.....but yeah.....
http://www.livestrong.com/article/96175-characteristics-sociopaths/?utm_source=popslideshow&utm_medium=a1

[mariamma]

It's on Horizon. "the moral molecule" - I am irritated with their sensationalising of it (using the word "evil") but other than that irritation, I thought it was good.

Excellent point! and Yes I did erase the other point. Oxytocin is being marketed as a Moral molecule, as a saving grace of Autistic people, as a magickal medicine. I do energy work meaning I work with the energy of oxytocin and other hormones and neurotransmitters. You can give someone the molecule but it won't work energetically if the person doesn't do the work!!! You can strap on a TENS unit and clench all the muscles in the body but you will not be ripped! You might be stronger? But honestly, nothing will change unless you do the work. Just taking a molecule will not change this.

[Lady Pamela]

This thread just hit home to one of the biggest, most dangerious and threatening happenings in mt life.

I will finish reading and then I will post.

But before I do, I want every person who has endured anything for someone like this, to know that your not alone.
To know, how incredible you are for getting away.
And to know, how amazing you are for surviving such.

.

[always2late]

I was also married to a sociopath. Never officially diagnosed - maybe she had another personality disorder - but something was definitely WRONG with her.

We met, she was charming, things moved very quickly. She was a genius - MENSA level - but she could never hold down a job because she had these intense conflicts with her superiors. I began to suspect she had sociopathic tendencies because she seemed to feel a genuine malice towards all humanity.

After the illusion was gone (I spent 8 years with her), I found out things that shocked me. She built bombs as a kid. She stole thousands of dollars from me. She could lie without batting an eye, and she made it very believable. She was incredibly manipulative. I always felt like I was to blame for any wrong I caught her doing. She could fake crying as easily as she lied. She'd been married before, and literally only got married to show up an ex who had hurt her by marrying a man. She spent tons of money on this "revenge" wedding, which lasted less than a month when the poor girl realized X had no feelings for her. She would lie to me about getting mugged when she had actually been gambling. She would lie to me about her day, saying all these horrible things happened when I found out later she had just been sitting around playing video games all day. I would cater to her needs to try and make her feel better, and as it turns out, that was all she wanted.

I feel sad for her sometimes because she seems frustrated by the fact that she cannot really connect with people. When we broke up, she called all her "friends", but none of them would even let her sleep on their couch. She never really bonded with her parents or even anyone in her family, save her grandmother, who she sees very rarely. When she found out I had arranged a date with someone after she moved away, she went out and got a girlfriend the next day. She texts me things like "Why do I always make girls cry?" to which I can only respond "because you have no emotions". She was always baffled by mine when we were together. When I would cry, she would just stare at me, puzzled, with no instinct whatsoever to do anything to comfort me.

I'm not an expert. I know many of you are - does this sound like a sociopath to you?

To keep it short and simple.....Yes.

[Lady Pamela]

The question is;
Have you met or know a psychopath/sociopath?
The answer is;
Most definately seen that demon. YES!
And sorry if it is to long to read. But this is the very short version in truth.

I was raised in the mormon church with very strict values and ideas.
Which included being married in the temple, to a man.
And truely believed back then that I would go to hell if I did not.

I knew I was attracted to woman at a very early age, but never dared to say anything.
And did not know there was such thing as a lesbian at that time.
So I thought I was truely warped and for sure.

Anyways, fast forward to when I was 20 and walking down the street to go to

Denny's.
A man aproached me stating his sister was lost and told me the description.
Asked me if If I had seen her, and can he walk with me to the coffee shop.
Of course, being helpful I said yes.

This is how he wormed his way in.
And 30 years later, this is my story...condensed version of course.
And leaving alot out that was much to gory .
Also, people like this in many cases, appear tottally normal and even liked by most.
Outside of the home of the persons which they try to dominate that is.

My mamma tried to warn me.
And told me he was evil and mentally unstable.
But of course I did not want to hear that. And thought I knew better.
Silly me!

My nightmare started the very night I got married.
I had never seen any type of behaviour from him this way.
I was getting ready to go to bed. He said come to bed.
I said, I will when I am done getting ready.
He said, I own you and broke all the lights in the house with a frying pan.
I was horribly scared right from the get go.
I took off outside, running down the road in a nighty.
Needless to say, he caught me later.
I was so scared I stayed. And my religion made me even more committed.

No one told me devorce was ok if abuse was present.
Call me dumb but I truely did believe I had made my bed so to speak.

Well, I was physically with him this time 1 year.
He burnt my arms for saying I was going to quit smoking, when I picked up a smoke.
Beat me beyond imagination. Several times.
Made me fear his every word and move.
Stuff I can not mention here as well.
As well as keeping me under threat with a knife the last year.
And swore that if he couldn't have me if I ever left, then he would kill me my daughter

and also the child I now carried as well.

I left anyways..to a battered womans shelter.
But very shortly he found me. And out of fear for my children I went back.
He took me to texas and I had no one there.For another year, this one even worse..I

stayed.

The one thing I thought I could count on is he wasn't mean to the kids.
That is, that I knew of.
All doors had been removed from the rooms in the house so he could see me at all

times.
He used to take a butcher knife and jab it over the shower curtain to freak me out.
He had a knife that stayed on the counter at all times which I was not allowed to

touch. EVER!

I again became pragnant and he slammed me repeatedly in a metal door and then

kicked me with steal toed boots to teach me a lesson. How dare I get pragnant

without his aproval.

The next day, I was taking a shower and got out.
I wittnessed my daughter go flying acrossed the room and him holding her by her feet

out a two story window.
I got her back in and watched her like a hawk.
The next day, as soon as he went to the store...
I called my mom who called a social worker of sorts.
She said whatever he has acused me of doing, is what he is planning.
OMG! He acused me of having someone after him to kill him amoungst other things.
I RAN TO THE CLOSEST CHURCH!
It was a Sunday and they were all in meeting...miricles do happen I tell you.
They all pulled money out..enough to get me and the kids back to Utah...and helped

see us off.

So I get to Utah and the battered womans shelter sent me to hospital and saved my

baby.

It was quite awhile after...I started having issues.
Things missing in my house. Food eaten.
Calls that couldn't be tracked to a sex line.
I was on the phone to the telephone operater and there was a pause while she

researched stuff.
When she came back on the line and I was telling her no one was home during the

time of the calls..A mans voice came of the line and said," Fuck You!"
The operater said," Ma'am get out of your home now..that is coming from within your

home!"
This is but 1 thing that happened after I left him.

He stalked me seriously hard for 17 years.
He lived in my attick..which I proved.
He lived in a crawl space in my home which was eventually found.
He chisseled my chimney and basement walls that were brick to eneter my home.
And I found out he had molested my daughter all that time.

He cut up my sons bed.
He lefts hurt animals in the dryer.
He left his type of knife as a calling card of many ocassions. ETC ETC ETC

You get the point.

So yes...I was married to a paranoid socialpath with delusional episodes they said.
The worst kind!

Ok sorry for the book...I just wanted to touch on how extremely dangerious they can

be.
And tell anyone who may be in one to seek help now.

Sorry if I was to graphic..I tried to leave out the worst stuff.
And still make my point!

[thedivahrrrself]

Lady Pamela,

I'm glad you are safe now. Holy shit, that sounds like a horror movie!!

[Lady Pamela]

Thanks.
To bad I don't have an agent...smiles

Lady Pamela,

I'm glad you are safe now. Holy shit, that sounds like a horror movie!!

[Lady Pamela]

Would love for more to post on this thread.

[mariamma]

Lady Pamela,
That sounds absolutely insane and horrid! I'm glad it's over for you and that you survived the experience. And I'm glad that the church you ran to pooled their money together and you got away from that deluded douche.

[rustedrims]

Kinda distracted right now doing a project here but i am reading.I will post my story in a day or 2.I am amazed at how similar every ones story is to mine.My sister is hell bent on getting me back in jail.She has "moved in" on my daily routeen.I am being careful but also challenging her,which i should not do.These people are very unhealthy and dangerious to be around.

s.

[Glenn]

The facade these psychopaths can keep up is really something to behold. I am in a heated discussion right now on another board about a certain semi famous "holy man" who has been well-versed in the sacred science of Kriya Yoga. He is seemingly very meek, humble, intelligent and magnetic....but he was kicked out of our ashram for sexual abuse, siphoning funds, bothering devotees for money they did not have, and re-editing our Holy Scriptures among other things. He has started another commune elsewhere, and his current devotees are having a hard time believing us because he seems so full of wisdom and enlightenment even though we have shown them court documents.

[bkisbutchenuff]

Certainly have - both professionally and personally.

Very cunning, often quite charming and bright- which makes them all the more dangerous. And they are not just what forensic TV shows demonstrate- they are all around us in various forms as in personality disordered people on one axis of mental illness diagnosis.

yes...both professionally and personally....nicely stated AtLast.

[mariamma]

The facade these psychopaths can keep up is really something to behold. I am in a heated discussion right now on another board about a certain semi famous "holy man" who has been well-versed in the sacred science of Kriya Yoga. He is seemingly very meek, humble, intelligent and magnetic....but he was kicked out of our ashram for sexual abuse, siphoning funds, bothering devotees for money they did not have, and re-editing our Holy Scriptures among other things. He has started another commune elsewhere, and his current devotees are having a hard time believing us because he seems so full of wisdom and enlightenment:(
I keep coming across dopamine in these cases. Dopamine makes you love, want, crave, halts development (ask an alcoholic, a cocaine or speed user, they stop developing emotionally while using) but dopamine is a bottomless pit of wanting if you push it that far. AND many parasites mess with our dopamine levels in order to get us to do things. Candida, possibly rabies but definitely toxoplasm gondii do. Energetic parasites will ride and consume energetic people and drain them into dry husks. They are similar to demons of possession.
His new 'people' will eventually figure it out. This is why women are spiritual leaders historically. We want everyone to be happy (serotonin focused) instead of everyone pouring love (dopamine) into us.

[Lady Pamela]

Bumping to see if anyone else wants to add anything.

[rustedrims]

First i will start with saying to June I Am Sorry.Think i used the wrong words.This is about my sister and not anyone in here.

I dont know where to start.My older sister has always thought she was right in everything she did and said.She was right!Always! There was no reasoning with her.

[morningstar55]

Bumping to see if anyone else wants to add anything.
Wow. .... ur story just , gave me sm tears glad u were able 2 get away.

[rustedrims]

First i will start with saying to June I Am Sorry.Think i used the wrong words.This is about my sister and not anyone in here.

I dont know where to start.My older sister has always thought she was right in everything she did and said.She was right!Always! There was no reasoning with her.With her being like that she was very limited on people that were her friend.She only had 2 people in school that stuck by her.Today neither one of them want to be around her.

As time passes and i learn her habits and what she has done with her life i do see that there is something wrong with her.She has lost her husband which she put through a living hell.I think we could have been friends if it wasnt for her interfearing and telling stories to us and about us.She has lost her job of 25 years.She kept calling in sick when she didnt want to be responsible for making a living.She has lost her house because she just quit making the payment.She has lost her daughter because she doesnt have a home to raise her in.Now she has lost her family.Everyone in the family doesnt want her to be around them in support of me and what she is putting me through.

I have read everything in this Thread and all the extras and it is her.There was one story that is very similar to mine.She physcially attack me and i was defending myself.I never hit her.She was scratching at my face,ear,chin and scratches on my upper chest.Then with her kicking me with her foot then her knee when she knocked me off balance.Bruses on my side,back and leg.She called 911 and put Domestic Violence on me.She filled out a police report as did my niece and my dad.All 3 of them lied and that got me a night in jail.My dad and the kid was in the kitchen.They never saw it start but both said they did and i started it.My bail was $4,000 cash.I called my older sister and she was able to get that out of my savings.Ok now i am pissed,she is in my money.She put a restraining order on me.Went to court i said no then a protection order is on me over lapping the restraining order.What?Ok waited that out now i have to plea for something i didnt do just to get this over with.I agree to a plea that is equal to littering.Really!I still have 10 days of jail hanging over my head until April 11th 2013.
My dad always told us kids growing up to stick up for each other and not to lie.My brother went over there to see what was going on and he said my dad was shaking real bad.Not normal for him.He was upset with my sister.The whole insident was based on a lie.I think that got the best of him.He ended up dieing 13 days later because of a massive heart attack.I had to have a paper signed by the courts in my pocket at all times so i could go to my dads funeral.That was to protect me from my sister putting me back in jail.That cost me $225.00 to have my Lawyer draw that up.Really!Thought funerals were free.

Now she has stalking on me.I saw her once since the funeral.She drove by my house and by my moms house and i saw her both times.Went to court about that.She was going to press the stalking charges on me.After i said i saw her doing drive by's she changed her mind and now we are going to get a moderator.Still yet another protection order on me.That order is a waste of paper.I do not like her or am not intrested in ever comming in contact with her again.Ever!

She is homeless now and i do not know where she is staying and i dont care.I have gotten a few phone calls of people telling me where she is so i dont go on that end of town.They are making me aware she is in the area.That i am greatfull for.I stay away.

Everything i read about this type of personality is her to the letter.Charming and controlling.She has lost control of her own life and is making an attempt at controlling mine.She is not and will not controll me or any part of me.I see very clearly now that i am a target/victom and not her sister.That i feel sad about.We were very close growing up and as adults.I do miss that.

Sorry this was a little long and Thank You for reading.

Sheila.

[Lady Pamela]

Wow. .... ur story just , gave me sm tears glad u were able 2 get away.


Thank you so much.

Now I devote alot of time with others to keep them safe from people like this.
Or to make them aware they are even in true danger.
So good has become of this for many.

[Mrs Arcstriker]

I've only met one person who fits the description of sociopath. His name was Michael Ross. He was a serial killer that lived in my town. You can google his name and see a documentary where he speaks of killing two of my sister's childhood friends...

Because I actually knew a sociopath, I am hardpressed to be an arm-chair psychiatrist and give you my opinion about others who have crossed pathes with me.

I think it is a slippery slope to arm-chair diagnose anybody, or lump them into a definition that you find on Wikipedia.

The one sociopath that I knew in my life was a serial killer and he was put to death by lethal injection on May 13, 2005...

LS and AB...I think of you always.

[Lady Pamela]

First i will start with saying to June I Am Sorry.Think i used the wrong words.This is about my sister and not anyone in here.

I dont know where to start.My older sister has always thought she was right in everything she did and said.She was right!Always! There was no reasoning with her.With her being like that she was very limited on people that were her friend.She only had 2 people in school that stuck by her.Today neither one of them want to be around her.

As time passes and i learn her habits and what she has done with her life i do see that there is something wrong with her.She has lost her husband which she put through a living hell.I think we could have been friends if it wasnt for her interfearing and telling stories to us and about us.She has lost her job of 25 years.She kept calling in sick when she didnt want to be responsible for making a living.She has lost her house because she just quit making the payment.She has lost her daughter because she doesnt have a home to raise her in.Now she has lost her family.Everyone in the family doesnt want her to be around them in support of me and what she is putting me through.

I have read everything in this Thread and all the extras and it is her.There was one story that is very similar to mine.She physcially attack me and i was defending myself.I never hit her.She was scratching at my face,ear,chin and scratches on my upper chest.Then with her kicking me with her foot then her knee when she knocked me off balance.Bruses on my side,back and leg.She called 911 and put Domestic Violence on me.She filled out a police report as did my niece and my dad.All 3 of them lied and that got me a night in jail.My dad and the kid was in the kitchen.They never saw it start but both said they did and i started it.My bail was $4,000 cash.I called my older sister and she was able to get that out of my savings.Ok now i am pissed,she is in my money.She put a restraining order on me.Went to court i said no then a protection order is on me over lapping the restraining order.What?Ok waited that out now i have to plea for something i didnt do just to get this over with.I agree to a plea that is equal to littering.Really!I still have 10 days of jail hanging over my head until April 11th 2013.
My dad always told us kids growing up to stick up for each other and not to lie.My brother went over there to see what was going on and he said my dad was shaking real bad.Not normal for him.He was upset with my sister.The whole insident was based on a lie.I think that got the best of him.He ended up dieing 13 days later because of a massive heart attack.I had to have a paper signed by the courts in my pocket at all times so i could go to my dads funeral.That was to protect me from my sister putting me back in jail.That cost me $225.00 to have my Lawyer draw that up.Really!Thought funerals were free.

Now she has stalking on me.I saw her once since the funeral.She drove by my house and by my moms house and i saw her both times.Went to court about that.She was going to press the stalking charges on me.After i said i saw her doing drive by's she changed her mind and now we are going to get a moderator.Still yet another protection order on me.That order is a waste of paper.I do not like her or am not intrested in ever comming in contact with her again.Ever!

She is homeless now and i do not know where she is staying and i dont care.I have gotten a few phone calls of people telling me where she is so i dont go on that end of town.They are making me aware she is in the area.That i am greatfull for.I stay away.

Everything i read about this type of personality is her to the letter.Charming and controlling.She has lost control of her own life and is making an attempt at controlling mine.She is not and will not controll me or any part of me.I see very clearly now that i am a target/victom and not her sister.That i feel sad about.We were very close growing up and as adults.I do miss that.

Sorry this was a little long and Thank You for reading.

Sheila.



It sounds to me like you have very good choices to live your life without her in it.
But my question to you is this;
Considering this is your sister, are you feeling guilt for your choices?

And if that is the case, remember one thing..
This problem is far bigger than you can fix if she is not willing to seek aide in doing for herself.

U can only help and be there for someone, if your not enabling them and not taking the low points (which is when the learn and feel deepest).

Where is it right now, I fully support your choice to stay away from her.

But always make sure you know where she is. If you choose this method.
While her fixation is on you.



Also, doing this will also keep those aroound you safer.

.

[Mrs Arcstriker]

Our local sociopath killed with glee, 8 women (6 in CT and 2 in NY) If you watch the videos of Michael Ross on You Tube (a 3 part series) he will discribe with little emotion how he had to adjust his grip while he strangled Leslie Shelley and April Brunais because his hands cramped up. He also commented on his amazement that the littlest girl, Leslie, put up the most fight. Both of these girls lived in my town and were friends of my sister. I was always vexed by the fact that he never killed my mother-in-law who had befriended him when he moved into her apartment building after her divorce from my father-in-law, and the only explaination we have is that she became human to him, and she befriended him.

He was caught in late June of 1984 after killing his last victim. I and my friend Jane met him in May of the same year at Arremony's Bakery. During track practice Jane and I would take a detour to Arremony's for coffee and a whoopie pie during track practice while we were supposed to be running. We met Ross at the counter where we were seated, wearing our track uniforms. Ross asked us where we practiced, and we said mostly on the trails behind the highschool...Down in the woods. To this day, we walk the dogs down there because it is beautiful and secluded.

My point in all of this is this. Most of us know somebody who is nuts to the tenth degree, but almost all of us don't know a true sociopath or even a psychopath. If any of us know a person like that it changes our behavior for the rest of our life.

Though Ross was fried like the piece of shit he is back in 2005, and though he was on death row before I ever had kids...I never, ever let my kids out in the yard alone. My daughters were NEVER allowed to walk downstreet to Arremony's Bakery.

Once you know one, you change your whole world view. My kids are now in their 20's and still have to check in with me hourly. My eldest takes it in stride because she knows that in this little town we had a serial killer...she still checks in with me even when she goes to see her fiance...an active duty Marine.

IMHO, it's okay to say that you know a nutty person, but to lable somebody as a sociopathic or psychopathic personality...that is another thing entirely.

[rustedrims]

It sounds to me like you have very good choices to live your life without her in it.
But my question to you is this;
Considering this is your sister, are you feeling guilt for your choices?

And if that is the case, remember one thing..
This problem is far bigger than you can fix if she is not willing to seek aide in doing for herself.

U can only help and be there for someone, if your not enabling them and not taking the low points (which is when the learn and feel deepest).

Where is it right now, I fully support your choice to stay away from her.

But always make sure you know where she is. If you choose this method.
While her fixation is on you.



Also, doing this will also keep those aroound you safer.

.


Lady P,
I do not feel any guilt because it is my sister.There has been tension in our relationship for a few years now.Her behavior towards me now is the deal breaker.She has caused me dissapointment,heartbreak and an enourmas ammount of saddness.She has put a great deal of uneasyness between me and my niece [her daughter].As of today we do not speak.She is 16.I am not concerned with that now because i am confident we will get our relationship completely back and stronger than ever.My sister will not be involved to interfear and keep us apart like she has in the past.

We have a moderator appointment at the end of the month.She has a job now so that is being canceled.REALLY!?.I have had a job for almost 30 years and that doesnt count for anything.She gets a job and the world has to stop turning because she said so.Bullsh#t!She is going to drag this out in a way to control me with that Protection Order.I do not interact with her in any way!It is a waste of paperwork in my opinion.Courious how this is going to go.Tossing around the idea if my Atty. should be present at the moderation thing.I need and will find out where she works so i do stay away from that end of town.I will let everyone know so they can act accordingly.What ever that job is she will end up loosing it because she thinks rules do not apply to her.She will be late several times and get fired.

Thank you for your support and your kind words.Much appreciated.

[rustedrims]

Our local sociopath killed with glee, 8 women (6 in CT and 2 in NY) If you watch the videos of Michael Ross on You Tube (a 3 part series) he will discribe with little emotion how he had to adjust his grip while he strangled Leslie Shelley and April Brunais because his hands cramped up. He also commented on his amazement that the littlest girl, Leslie, put up the most fight. Both of these girls lived in my town and were friends of my sister. I was always vexed by the fact that he never killed my mother-in-law who had befriended him when he moved into her apartment building after her divorce from my father-in-law, and the only explaination we have is that she became human to him, and she befriended him.

He was caught in late June of 1984 after killing his last victim. I and my friend Jane met him in May of the same year at Arremony's Bakery. During track practice Jane and I would take a detour to Arremony's for coffee and a whoopie pie during track practice while we were supposed to be running. We met Ross at the counter where we were seated, wearing our track uniforms. Ross asked us where we practiced, and we said mostly on the trails behind the highschool...Down in the woods. To this day, we walk the dogs down there because it is beautiful and secluded.

My point in all of this is this. Most of us know somebody who is nuts to the tenth degree, but almost all of us don't know a true sociopath or even a psychopath. If any of us know a person like that it changes our behavior for the rest of our life.

Though Ross was fried like the piece of shit he is back in 2005, and though he was on death row before I ever had kids...I never, ever let my kids out in the yard alone. My daughters were NEVER allowed to walk downstreet to Arremony's Bakery.

Once you know one, you change your whole world view. My kids are now in their 20's and still have to check in with me hourly. My eldest takes it in stride because she knows that in this little town we had a serial killer...she still checks in with me even when she goes to see her fiance...an active duty Marine.

IMHO, it's okay to say that you know a nutty person, but to lable somebody as a sociopathic or psychopathic personality...that is another thing entirely.

Mrs A,

That is a horrible memorie for you.I am sorry for that.

My story is a little different than yours.I am not diagnosing my sister by any means.The description of a sociopath that i have been reading is my sister to the letter.We have been trying to figure out what her personality really is and this sounds accurate.
It is not a good feeling to be under her thumb and fearing the sheriff comming to put me back in jail just for the simple fact that my sister is having a bad day and has lost complete control of her own life that she feels the need to control mine with the third Protection Order.

I didnt mean to offend you if i did.This is just where i am at.

[fever]

If for no other reason than having a safe place to vent, I am glad you are sharing some of your thoughts and experiences here. You may get some helpful advice, or at least, people who have experienced similar things to what is happening to you. It is better to talk about feelings than bottling them up. I can't believe that your sister is continuing to be evil. I was told we have to send out love for these people, for our own karma. But, it sure is hard to do.


Candice

[Quintease]

IMHO, it's okay to say that you know a nutty person, but to lable somebody as a sociopathic or psychopathic personality...that is another thing entirely.

Not all psychopaths are killers, in fact most of them will never kill anyone in their life. They're not that much different to anyone with a mental illness, some may be dangerous to others, most are not. They are scary as they are unable to be medicated or rehabilitated.

This (http://www.minddisorders.com/Flu-Inv/Hare-Psychopathy-Checklist.html#b)is the real definition of a psychopath.

[Toph]

according to Dr. Martha Stout, 1 in 25 people are sociopaths. i personally just dated and was engaged to one who also (i believe) suffers from borderline personality disorder.

they can be high functioning and because they are practiced at the 'con' of acting human or acting moral, they make the greatest actors in the world...that is until they are caught in a lie or in a 'mistruth' or in completely different recollection of a story they forgot they already told.

i have been around a few blocks in my day and a few other peoples blocks, but i have never in my life fallen prey to the 'twisted life' of a sociopath, until recently.

i suggest everyone reads the book The Sociopath Next Door it is a wealth of knowledge and a wonderful guide line to help us see not only what they are capable of but what next to look for before entering into any other situation. it is also a great read for those who need to heal from being the victim of a sociopath.

knowledge is power.

[rustedrims]

As i read all the stuff everyone provides and i do read it all it is my sister to the letter.It is her! She has no sence of responsibility from raising her own kid to renewing her drivers license.Rules and laws do not apply to her.She has no emotion that is reconizeable as human.The cats in her house that was foreclosed on all died of starvation.[At least 20 of them.Another thread}That was her controlling weather they live or die.She could have let them outside on their own to survive.She chose death for them.She does not know i know this and many other things about her.If she knew i can only think of more bad things she will put me through.She manipulates people and gets what she needs at the time from them then throws them away for her next victom/target.People are disposible to her.She is not human.She is no longer part of my life or the kids cousins and her friends no longer exist for her.Sad but true.When mom talks about her kids she says the 3 kids.In reality she has 4.That is sad.I am not diagenosing her but the similaritys are very accurate in this case.It is her.I do miss my sister.I do not miss the person she has become.She is dead to me.

[Toph]

As i read all the stuff everyone provides and i do read it all it is my sister to the letter.It is her! She has no sence of responsibility from raising her own kid to renewing her drivers license.Rules and laws do not apply to her.She has no emotion that is reconizeable as human.The cats in her house that was foreclosed on all died of starvation.[At least 20 of them.Another thread}That was her controlling weather they live or die.She could have let them outside on their own to survive.She chose death for them.She does not know i know this and many other things about her.If she knew i can only think of more bad things she will put me through.She manipulates people and gets what she needs at the time from them then throws them away for her next victom/target.People are disposible to her.She is not human.She is no longer part of my life or the kids cousins and her friends no longer exist for her.Sad but true.When mom talks about her kids she says the 3 kids.In reality she has 4.That is sad.I am not diagenosing her but the similaritys are very accurate in this case.It is her.I do miss my sister.I do not miss the person she has become.She is dead to me.







from experience, they [sociopaths] are not capable of the emotion of compassion, they know only how to act it.
your sister sounds like my ex only, my ex did not abuse nor hinder the animals at all. however, that being said, she too believed she floated above the law in so many ways...so many entitlements, that no-one who actually lives in the reality of humanity...would expect.

you are best being away from her and to share what once was said to me 'run from her twisted world'

the separation hurts, the situation is appalling but in the long run you will be best off and you will heal.

remember 1 in 25 people are sociopaths...learn what you can from that.

[rustedrims]

Gotta get past Wednesday.Seeing the moderator and my sister.I will be getting my "Shit together" tomorrow.I will be sitting at my new counter/island after work in the morning going through all my paperwork i have collected through these months.I made some notes a while ago at work when i had some free time.I will get them in order and pick out the most important things i want to say.The thing is that this will be the LAST TIME i will talk to her in my lifetime.I am sad because i will loose my sister but extremely angry what she has done to me by putting me in the legal system all based on a lie that she truley believes.I will most definately bring that up.The rage inside me is very over whelming.Working on the breathing thing so my chest doesnt tighten up on me.Not a good feeling.

[MsTinkerbelly]

Gotta get past Wednesday.Seeing the moderator and my sister.I will be getting my "Shit together" tomorrow.I will be sitting at my new counter/island after work in the morning going through all my paperwork i have collected through these months.I made some notes a while ago at work when i had some free time.I will get them in order and pick out the most important things i want to say.The thing is that this will be the LAST TIME i will talk to her in my lifetime.I am sad because i will loose my sister but extremely angry what she has done to me by putting me in the legal system all based on a lie that she truley believes.I will most definately bring that up.The rage inside me is very over whelming.Working on the breathing thing so my chest doesnt tighten up on me.Not a good feeling.

How did it go yesterday?

[rustedrims]

How did it go yesterday?

Hey Miss T,

First thank you for asking.As you well know trying to reason with these kind of people is impossible and it did turn into a "Pissing Contest" if i can say.Think i need another day to post to get my thoughts together.
Surprisingly enough i went into work last night with 2 hours of sleep and was in a good mood and even smiled and laughed.I am on my way to some type of healing.I believe.Feeling a little restless for tomorrow.I have to attend a funeral of my friends Dad.I was not able to grieve for my own dads death because of the living hell my sister was putting me through.Wondering how i will handle the emotion.

s.

[rustedrims]

from experience, they [sociopaths] are not capable of the emotion of compassion, they know only how to act it.
your sister sounds like my ex only, my ex did not abuse nor hinder the animals at all. however, that being said, she too believed she floated above the law in so many ways...so many entitlements, that no-one who actually lives in the reality of humanity...would expect.

you are best being away from her and to share what once was said to me 'run from her twisted world'

the separation hurts, the situation is appalling but in the long run you will be best off and you will heal.

remember 1 in 25 people are sociopaths...learn what you can from that.

Hey Toph,

I have learned alot from this expirence.I have learned to cut my losses and sacrifice a sister to her twisted way of life.My contact with her ended yesterday.This i will struggle with but will enforce it within my lifes journeys.My older sister says she needs a pill.I told her no,there is nothing and nobody that can help her.She is an emptyness of a human being.A way i explained it to her was trying to start a car without an engine.It just isnt going to start.I also tried to explain that she is a target/victum and not a sister.How she sets small goals with each person she needs something from.It is all crazy and heart breaking.Slowly i am getting it.
Thank you Toph.

s.

[rustedrims]

Last wednesday was kinda tough and nerve racking.Before we even got started i said what i wanted from now on from her.That being said i told her i wanted no contact with her and i do not like her ect..ect..ect..The thing i said at the ending of that statement is that she is dead to me.That was the last time i will ever be in contact with my second oldest sister.I did see a very small,Very Small fraction of a human emotion in her once maybe twice.Very small i will say again.I was very surprised that when i was talking she never intrupted however i did inturupt her.I have zero tolerance for adults that lie.The thing that was surprising the most to me was that she told "her" story of the events that happened to get us where we are today.I was there and i do know the facts to the story.That didnt put one hesitation in the lies she told when explaining the events that happened.She brought up the fact that i still have those 10 days in jail hanging over my head for a year.Kept repeating it and i asked her why do i need to be in jail?She didnt have an answer.The Moderator was a very soft spoken guy and listened to everything.He finally seperated us and heard both sides to the story.I had those pictures sitting infront of me the whole time.They were pictures of her house inside and out.She never put those cats out in life as well as in death.She didnt clean up after them or herself.The guy that "cleaned" out her house said at least 20 cats were in there.The smell was horriffic as well as what i saw.I will never forget what i saw and smelled that day.The Moderator did ask to see the pictures and as he was looking through them he said "You know she has a problem" I said "Yes i know".
Fast forward a little.We were able to see the Magistrate before we left and agreed to the Civil Protection Order i think it is called.He asked my sister how long she would like it on me and she said 2 years.Then i was asked if i agreed to that and i said i would agree to five years and life if i could pick that.She was asked if she agreed to that and she said yeah lets do that,the five year.She of course made it all sound like it was her idea.I think it is pretty sad that the county court system has to tell me to stay way and dont call my own sister.Iwas already doing that for a few years.The only up side thing to all this is that she has to abide to the same rules as i do.I am not as "jumpy" as i was a week ago.I never know when or where she will pop up. There was a time that she did show genuine anger.She mentioned to the Moderator i was not to pick the kid up at school or have any contact with her.He said why?You see she only had her name on that Protection Order and not the kids name like the last one.She was a little pissed that she couldnt control that.I am thinking i will be texting the kid in a few days just to tell her i miss her and still love her.She is 16.There has not been a week or a few days that would go by that i didnt talk to her text her call her or stop by and visit her.I was there when she was born.I saw the color of her hair before her mom did.She is with her dad now and i miss her terribly.I havent had any contact with her in almost 8 months.When i do text her i will not expect a response.That will be ok.I did get some things out of the house for her after the bank forclosed on the house she grew up in.She hasnt seen and knows nothing on the condition of the house at its worst.My sister was given 45 days to get her stuff out and never made an attempt.She was concentrating on getting me in jail.She doesnt know i have what i have and know how her mom was living.
However i am confident my sister will still get me in some way cash in on those 10 days in jail.
I am confident she is not completely done with me and the legal system.
I am confident she will some how and some way find something to keep me away from my niece.
I am confident she will loose yet another job she has had for 2 weeks.Another story.
I am confident i will not have a problem staying away from her.
I am confident i will be ok.

With that being said it is in the past and that is where it will stay.I am going forward with my life and planning happy and fun things to do.
I still have a heavyness in my chest i need to get rid of.I believe i will put myself in counseling.I have also had a few bad dreams i do not want to come back.Had one again today that woke me up.

Thank you all for the support and kind words.None of it goes un-noticed.
A BIG THANK-YOU for reading !!Very much appreciated.

You all have my best.
Sheila.

[yotlyolqualli]

Ive known people who, according to the standards put forth in this thread, are socio or psychopathic, or at least have socio or psychopathic tendencies.

It's scary how perfectly normal they seem, until they can't hide those things anymore, or a stressor sets them off. Only one out of the few who have been in my life, was truly violently psychotic, the other's, I think, were more borderline personalities. The single most common thing they had in common? Inability to tell the truth. They didn't always straight out lie, but they just couldn't seem to be able to tell the simple truth. Stories changed, whole circumstances changed, sometimes even their "real" names changed. The other common trait? Narcissism. Only they mattered, only their feelings mattered, only their wants, needs and desires, mattered.

In all honesty, it's extremely sad. They will never know what it's like to be truly loved by another person. I am sure they are or will be truly loved, but they are so wrapped up in themselves that they will never know it, feel it, or truly appreciate it. To me, that's sad.

[rustedrims]

Well my sociopath sister has targeted my oldest sister.She has a college education but lacks "street smarts".There is a soft spot in her that the bad sister has gotten to.The bad sister called her and asked her to meet to talk.I went to my sisters house last night to educate her on what she is getting herself into.The visit started out ok but i was waiting for the other shoe to drop if i could say.When i told her the situation that happened between me and the bad sister she said it wasnt all that believeable.Then something else was brought up.I exploded between the 2 matters that was discussed.I did not lie to her!EVER!!What do i have to gain by lieing?I didnt know she was thinking i wasnt telling the truth.That is a great example that the evil sister is very convincing.She can tell a lie that is very believable.I dont think i will feel comfortable around her anymore.Before i left her house i told her i wouldnt be comming back.This situation has put a lot of unnessary stress on all of the family.I can see it is slowly splitting us up.I do not like that feeling.
I am not real sure how to start but i believe the only way i can feel safe and maybe some reliefe is to move away.I need to think this through and figure it out.

[Lady Pamela]

Well my sociopath sister has targeted my oldest sister.She has a college education but lacks "street smarts".There is a soft spot in her that the bad sister has gotten to.The bad sister called her and asked her to meet to talk.I went to my sisters house last night to educate her on what she is getting herself into.The visit started out ok but i was waiting for the other shoe to drop if i could say.When i told her the situation that happened between me and the bad sister she said it wasnt all that believeable.Then something else was brought up.I exploded between the 2 matters that was discussed.I did not lie to her!EVER!!What do i have to gain by lieing?I didnt know she was thinking i wasnt telling the truth.That is a great example that the evil sister is very convincing.She can tell a lie that is very believable.I dont think i will feel comfortable around her anymore.Before i left her house i told her i wouldnt be comming back.This situation has put a lot of unnessary stress on all of the family.I can see it is slowly splitting us up.I do not like that feeling.
I am not real sure how to start but i believe the only way i can feel safe and maybe some reliefe is to move away.I need to think this through and figure it out.

May I make a suggestion?
I will say this, the more you allow your relationship with the other sister to ruin due to your unhealthy sister..;.the more she wins.

Do not discuss her with her. Simply love each other on a 1 on 1 basis.
And don't speak of the other... understand?
DO NOT LET HER NEGATIVE STOP YOU POSOTIVE RELATIONSHIP .

Just saying.
And life is lonely without family as well.

[rustedrims]

May I make a suggestion?
I will say this, the more you allow your relationship with the other sister to ruin due to your unhealthy sister..;.the more she wins.

Do not discuss her with her. Simply love each other on a 1 on 1 basis.
And don't speak of the other... understand?
DO NOT LET HER NEGATIVE STOP YOU POSOTIVE RELATIONSHIP .

Just saying.
And life is lonely without family as well.

That is a good suggestion/advise.I have thought of that and am trying to do things that way.Yes the evil sister will win if i give into her destruction.I will not give in.I could not imagine life with out the kids.I am not bringing them into this at all.If they ask i will answer truthfuly and honestly.Only if they ask.I do not make it the main disscussion of the visit.For now the evil sister seems to be staying away as she should.

Thank you Lady Pamela

[Nomad]

i read this guy's blog from time to time. i know this post is long but it was interesting.

------------


Differentiating the sociopath from the borderline from the narcissist

***(This article is copyrighted © 2012 by Steve Becker, LCSW. Use of the male gender pronoun was strictly for convenience’s sake and not to imply that females aren’t capable of the attitudes and behaviors discussed.)***

Monday, 30 April 2012


Man, it’s not easy out there. Your partner clearly has a major personality disturbance, but sometimes separating borderline, narcissistic and sociopathic behavior can be hard. Real tough. Especially when there are spill-over behaviors, cross-contaminating behaviors and attitudes (as there often are) that further muddy the diagnostic waters.

Let’s look at rage, for instance. Rage is a major marker of the borderline and narcissistic personality. Sociopaths, being essentially malignant, high-end narcissists, like any full-blown narcissist, are also capable of frightful, bullying, abusive rages.

The borderline’s rage, much like the narcissist’s, tends to be elicted by disappoinment. And it’s not always “abandonment”-related. When the borderline, much like the narcissist, feels uncatered to, neglected or invalidated, WATCH OUT!!!!

The “tsunami” will be coming in a gigantic, overwhelming, RATIONALIZED WAVE. That wave will crash on you with shocking, destructive force, threatening to take your legs out from under you.

The sociopath’s rage is also elicited, commonly, by the frustration of his needs, demands, expectations. When that’s not the case, he may be salivating for some excitement, perhaps to escape the accumulating tension of his boredom; and so he may want a good dust-up to entertain himself: Unleashing his rage in a bullying assault may do the trick.

Remorse for the impact and damage of their rages is often missing in all three cases. Incredible, really INCREDIBLE rationalization, plus the astounding absence of self-reflection and accountability, is commonly missing as well.

The borderline feels as justified in his raging as the narcissist. His raging is pure narcissism being acted-out in the moment. The borderline, it is true, may later plead for forgiveness, but this is not always the case. Some borderlines will not pursue you at all after they’ve degraded you in a rage.

And not to confuse matters, but some narcissists and sociopaths will lobby for your forgiveness and amnesty after abusive displays in sometimes florid gestures of contrition.



The borderline and narcissist are both notorious vacillators along the idealizing-devaluing continuum. They are both “splitters” in the sense of perceiving others in rigidly black and white ways. When in their good graces, you are fantastic; their greatest luck and good fortune was to have met you; but disappoint them, and you are likely, suddenly, abruptly, to qualify as the worst, most despicable person they ever had the misfortune to cross paths with.

Sociopaths, in this sense, may be so disconnected, so pathologically disengaged from, and indifferent to, the emotional lives of others that, paradoxically, they may bring less of this particular kind of “splitting” drama to the table than borderlines and the typical narcissist.

This isn’t to suggest that sociopaths don’t “act out” in an outrageous variety of destructive ways. They can, and do.

And devaluation and contempt of others deeply, definingly characterizes the sociopath’s perspective; it’s just that the sociopath may actually exercise, and experience, his twisted emotional disconnection from others with sometimes (but not always!) less volatility than your typical borderline or narcissist. He may sometimes be more predictably, continuously indifferent, contemptuous and emotionally uninvested in others than his borderline or narcissistic counterpart.

The borderline can be callous and cruel, as can the narcissist and sociopath. Hmmm. When we are dealing with a callous, cruel individual whose aim is to BE DESTRUCTIVE (at least in the moment), with no compunction or remorse, but only contempt and hate for the object of his rage, then at least, for the moment, it may be somewhat immaterial which personality disorder we’re dealing with.

We may know later, but at the time, what difference does it really make? The individual’s present intent is clear—to hurt, destroy, inflict pain (in the borderline’s case, perhaps to discharge his pain by inflicting pain). But the experience on the other end, on your end, may be largely the same. You will feel variously abused, humiliated, threatened, degraded.

As noted, all three personality types may (or may not) later show contrition, thus contrition doesn’t accurately distinguish them. Plus, gauging the sincerity of an apology, its depth, is tough business. So again, this isn’t easy. Who are we dealing with? And does it even, always, matter?

I might add this rather vague, but possibly valid, observation: When borderlines aren’t “borderlining,” they are often really good and good-hearted individuals. They are often generous, authentic, sensitive and giving individuals. This is obviously a generalization. There are “borderlines” who, even when they aren’t raging, may be self-centered, jerky individuals, unpleasant and messed up in a million other ways. Still, many borderlines when they’re functioning above their “rage modes” are genuinely engaged, empathic, loving individuals.

You can not say this about the sociopath. This doesn’t mean the sociopath can’t “put this on.” But the sociopath, even when he isn’t obviously “sociopathing,” is always who he is at bottom: a cold, empty, empathically deficient, transgressive-minded individual who, at best, covers up his core contempt of others’ dignity and boundaries.

Not so with borderline personalities.

And narcissists who aren’t full-blown, those who retain a capacity to reflect on their narcissism (as some do) and its impact on those around them–which is tantamount to saying they retain a capacity (in less self-centered states of mind) to reflect on their impact on others with some degree of empathy–these narcissists, too, may be capable of authentic generosity, engagement and compassion, which makes them less incorrigible (and perhaps thus even more confusing) than the sociopath who, if he may sometimes present as the more stable, consistent personality, is clearly the most pathological of them all.

This article is intended to introduce the complicated challenge of differientating these volatile, destructive personalities; it is the first of several I intend to write.

[Glenn]

Just to lay this out here to give you a slight frame of reference that you can think about how various cluster B 's appear to act on the surface:
Casey Anthony was not affected by her daughter being gone. That's why she gave us that inappropriate, hideous, smile in the courtroom, and why she was smirking when she got arrested, plus a whole list of other odd behavior. She is a sociopath, not a borderline, histrionic, etc., but a sociopath like Dexter/Hannibal Lector/BTK/Ted Bundy, etc. That's what we're talking about here with Casey Anthony as an example. Someone like a teacher that screws her students well, that's a histrionic. Someone like Amy Winehouse, that's a borderline with severe ASPD.

[imperfect_cupcake]

My older brother (by 4 years) is one of these people. I grew up under his thumb and my folks left the two of us alone a lot, assuming he would look after me since he was older. The opposite was always the case. We are estranged now.

As did I. Mine was five years older. He experimented on me with various different kinds of abuse. From when when I was about 4 until I was 12 and attacked him with a fireplace poker.

I have dated a couple narsissists. head fucking, for sure. However, I need to take some responsibility in that I needed to be caring for myself and not trying to find someone to care for me that I found charming and funny. Doing that sets one up as a target and although it didn't give them any right to be the dickheads they were, I do get attracted to certain types of chaotic, charming, funny, passionate people. I am now the one who does all the caretaking, but the issue is mine. I invite them in with my arms open and then bend over backwards to care for them and earn their attention.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Without getting into detail, I've definitely been in relationships with a few people who could fit into this description. People who are unbelievably charming and manipulative and seem to have that "Jekyll and Hyde" personality. Someone who practically worships you one minute and then turns on you like a rabid animal the next.

I've always tended to see the good in people but have become much more guarded as I've gotten older. I truly want the person, whatever they're going through, to be healed and happy. So many people have gone through abusive childhoods (myself included) and have come out incredibly, irreversibly messed up and that breaks my heart.

I really want to heal the world but not at the expense of my life and sanity.

[Corkey]

Does Romney count, 'cause the whole family does in my book.

[AnnRkey]

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)





WHoa! I think just almost totally describes my ex girlfriend of almost 6 years! Scary. Very scary.

[rustedrims]

A short update on my situation with my evil sister.As of yesterday I am finally done with a long year of unsupervised probation and 10 days of jail hanging over my head.She is no longer allowed to interact with the family.To my surprise she is staying away from all of us.I have seen her driving around town from time to time.My opinion she is to close.

I did stay "good" in my year of the probation and proved to the courts I am not a risk to the general public.Now I have to wait another year to get my record expunged.

My small victory I will take a year at a time.

[rustedrims]

Ya know I spent a night in jail because of my evil sister,well ok.It was a Friday night and we all like to do something on a Friday night.An experience I will never forget.It was very cold sleeping on a metal framed bed.The blanket was a very thin wool scratchy and smelled like ass even though it was clean.I am sure I slept no more than an hour of total time my eyes were closed.Didnt stay long enough to eat or take a shower.My older sister bailed me out the next morning.Very grateful for that!Ok I got over the jail thing in a few weeks.I lost a bucket full of money that can never be replaced.The last time I had a lawyer I was buying my house.Now I have another one for court dates.WTF!I do not like someone else in my money.I am having a hard time dealing with having a police record of something that I did not do!That is very hard for me to accept.I absolutely do not like or interact with adults that lie and have it being my sister doing this to me is unforgiveable and very hurtful.

Just having a hard time dealing with the money and the charge issue.Thought if I posted it might help to let go of some of it.i hope

thanks for reading

s

[psykftm]

Thank you for this- I am aiming to work with the antisocial population...I'm a dreamer though, I would like to reform the whole damn prison system. I just got out of my bachelors and still need to go to grad school though...but thank you for posting this!

[wahya]

I just found this thread. Gonna read some of these posts then give you my experience with one. Have been dealing with one for going on 6 yrs now on and off..My only child, my heart & soul..my beautiful daughter cannot seem to break free from one. I have salt n pepper hair & I swear every gray hair on my head is due to this. It's put me in a funk for aboout 3 weeks now. Because of my grandkids.

[PurerSands]

My ex boss was a sociopath I'm convinced. He being the reason of my resignation was also the biggest asshole I've ever met.

Sexist, up himself, needing constant praise, and not very clever.

Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh even thinking about him makes my blood boil!

[DMW]

Oh I had a doozy of an experience with a sociopath! It happened several years ago and went on for years! It was one of the most insane episodes I have ever experienced in my life.

Several years ago, I was involved in a relationship (neither of the people I am speaking of are on this site). He met a woman and the two of them became friends...she was involved with someone else, and at first, I saw nothing amiss with the friendship. Shortly thereafter, she began complaining to him about her partner...that her partner was abusive etc..and it seemed like he was spending all his time dealing with her "crisis" (there was a new one every day). This made me uncomfortable, and I told him so. He swore nothing was going on with the two of them...that they were just friends. And SHE also sent me an email, stating that she respected our relationship, and valued him as a friend, and that I had nothing to worry about....famous last words, right? lol

Anyway, she broke up with her partner (who apparently had NO idea hy was "abusive" (according to her)..and was completely shocked when she left)...and that's when the fun really started! Of course, I found out that she and my partner were not just "friends"...that it had crossed the line into the inappropriate (she was sending him naked pictures right around the same time she was sending me those glowing emails about how she "respected" our relationship). Naturally, this was not wholly her doing...he shared in the blame, and I am not one to totally point the finger at the femme...it takes two to tango, right? So, I ended it with him. Now, none of this is all that uncommon I suppose. I am sure that there are many of us here that have experienced this or something like it in our lifetime. However, this is where the typical screwed up drama veered off into the insane.

He apparently did not want us to end, and therefore, would not commit to her. Her response to this was to go on the attack....against me. And this is where the sociopathic/psychotic behavior began. She invented other email profiles, and began sending him letters about my character...some of these letters were from femmes I had "wronged", others from the butches I was "cheating" on him with, and still others from well meaning folks just trying to "warn him" that I was no good. She created whole chats between me and these other "people" and sent them to him. She created text messages, supposedly sent to her from me, calling her all kinds of vile things (apparently I guess she assumed this would paint me in a very bad light as a horrible person...forgetting I guess, that I never had her phone number, and that all the texts she showed him were saved in her drafts). She also created emails from me to her along the same vein...using an email address I no longer used. She even claimed that she had a friend who was a "computer expert" and could verify that the emails came from my address (my home address that is).

This did not go on for weeks, or even months...this went on for years! I have no idea why she decided to target me when I was out of the picture. I can only assume that her hatred toward me was motivated by the fact that he wouldn't commit to her...and she saw me as the cause. In between the malicious emails and texts were the threats of suicide, the never-ending crisis to gain attention, the constant claims of "victimization" at my hands...it was totally and completely insane and I've never experienced anything quite like it in my life. In the intervening years, I have met other people who have had experiences with this same woman...and have found that she completely fits the profile of a sociopath...the lies, the malicious behavior, the adoption of varying personalities to fit the situation and/or person she is with....the list goes on and on. Fortunately, I am no longer the object of her "attention"...and can only hope that no one else is suffering the ill effects of her disorder.

Oh yes. This. Exactly and Ditto.
Thank you for this post Blondie.

[Lady Pamela]

Re read my post here and I don't know what happened with the spacing but wow...lol

Bumping the thread for those who may not have seen it. I found it to be a great one.