Lawsuit asks state to pay for inmate's sex-change operation- What do you think?

[AtLast]

Interesting controversy- Something that came to my mind are transpeople I know that have footed all of the costs for their transitions personally.

Yet, I can see the safety issues and also, state prison systems are responsible for the medical needs of inmates. Insurance reimbursements are made based upon Gender Identity Disorder (as it is currently d3scribed in the DSM-IV which is under discussion for changes).

If an inmate is attacked and injured, no matter gender identification- these costs are paid via the correctional system along with dental care, etc.

What do other people think? This is really complex to me with many variables. I'm sure political conservative tax rights organizations pile this onto the transphobic/queer pile and cost cutting.

Should these inmates have to wait until released to fully transition? And what about those with life sentences or on death row?

My head is spinning with issues involved with this!!
--------

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prisons-transgender-20110420,0,57568.storyBy Jack Dolan, Los Angeles Times

Lawsuit asks state to pay for inmate's sex-change operation

Lyralisa Stevens says she is harassed and sexually assaulted by male prisoners, and needs surgery to be assigned to a women's prison. State officials say they aren't required to provide that level of care.



April 20, 2011
Reporting from Vacaville— Lyralisa Stevens, who was born male but lives as a female, is serving 50 years to life in a California prison for killing a San Bernardino County woman with a shotgun in a dispute over clothes.

Stevens is one of more than 300 inmates in the state prison system diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder, a psychiatric condition addressed in free society with hormone replacement therapy and, in some cases, sex reassignment surgery.

Prison officials have provided female hormones for Stevens since her incarceration in 2003. But now she is asking the 1st District Court of Appeal in San Francisco to require the state to pay for a sex-change operation.

Stevens, 42, and her expert witnesses say that surgery is medically necessary, and that removal of her penis and testicles and transfer to a women's prison are the best way to protect her from rape and abuse by male inmates.

As prison officials have struggled to address chronic overcrowding, the constant threat of gang violence and a health system that federal judges have equated with "cruel and unusual" punishment, they have also gone to court multiple times to answer allegations that they failed to properly treat and protect transgender inmates.

Judges have sided with transgender prisoners — who according to a UC Irvine study are 13 times more likely to suffer sexual assault than other inmates — on some significant cases. In 2009, the California Supreme Court ruled that an inmate could sue guards for failing to protect her from repeated rapes and beatings by her cellmate. In 1999, an appeals court ordered prison officials to provide hormone therapy to inmates who were already taking them when they arrived. The treatments cost about $1,000 a year per prisoner.

A ruling in Stevens' favor would make California the first place in the country required to provide reassignment surgery for an inmate, according to lawyers for the receiver appointed to oversee California's troubled prison health system. They argue that the state should be required to provide only "minimally adequate care," not sex-change operations that cost $15,000 to $50,000.

Stevens, who has a slight build — 5-foot-6 and about 115 pounds — and entered prison with silicon injections in her breasts and hips to feminize her physique, said in a court filing that she feels like she's under threat of sexual assault in the men's facility and wants the surgery, in part, so she'll be sent to a women's institution.

"The male inmate is not expecting to see breasts … in the shower next to him," Stevens wrote. The situation can lead to violent disputes among the men and sparks attacks against transgender inmates, who may have less upper body strength because of the hormone therapy, Stevens said.

In a court filing supporting Stevens' petition, psychotherapist Lin Fraser said she has "grave concerns" for Stevens' safety because she "had been put alone in cells all night long with men who threatened and abused her."

California law requires prison administrators to assign the state's nearly 162,000 inmates to men's or women's institutions based on "gender," which officials determine solely by a prisoner's genitals. Richard Masbruch, who tried multiple times to castrate himself while in a Texas prison and eventually succeeded, is in the California Institution for Women inChino. Masbruch, who goes by the name Sherri, was transferred from Texas to serve 40 years for a 1991 rape in Fresno.

While confronting complaints and lawsuits by transgender inmates challenging their housing assignments during the mid-2000s, the California prison system commissioned a study by UC Irvine sociologists to help them understand the small, uniquely vulnerable population. The study found that 59% of transgender inmates said they had been raped or otherwise sexually assaulted behind bars, compared with 4.4% of the general prison population, lead researcher Valerie Jenness told the state Senate Public Safety Committee.

Despite those numbers, 59% of transgender inmates said they did not want to move to a women's institution.

"The advantages of being in a men's prison include the pursuit of sex and the possibility of securing a male partner," Jenness said. "Concern about safety is not a main factor in predicting [housing] preferences."

Stevens declined to join a group of transgender inmates interviewed by The Times recently at the prison system's main medical facility in Vacaville. But six others — of the 30 to 50 transgender inmates housed there at any given time — spoke candidly about their lives in prison.

Thomas Strawn, 52, who uses the name Lisa and is serving a life sentence after a third-strike conviction for burglary, said she is in a committed relationship with the man in the next cell and would not want to move.

"I stayed single for an entire year when I got here," Strawn said. "But now I got with somebody and I've been with him now two years."

Others, such as convicted killer David, or Bella, Birrell, 58, who said she had been raped in prison, would like to be transferred to a women's facility. "You don't have to worry about the constant harassment like you get from the men here," she said.

Only two of the six said they would be interested in a sex change operation if a court order compelled the state to pay the costs.

"I had made plans to try to get [the surgery] done before I committed the crime that I did," said Steve Alamillo, 39, who goes by Nikkas and is serving life for first-degree murder. "If the state can do that stuff, absolutely."

Willie Murphy, 47, who is also known as Mena and is serving life on a third-strike conviction for burglary, was among the majority, preferring to "keep what I got."

Surgery is where the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation draws the line.

"A prison is not required by law to give a prisoner medical care that is as good as he would receive if he were a free person, let alone an affluent free person," attorney Steven J. Bechtold, who represents the receiver, wrote in the state's response to Stevens' petition for the operation.

The prison system has lost on a similar point before. The state provides hormone therapy today because a federal court found in a 1999 case that failing to continue treatment for inmates who were on hormones before coming to prison amounted to cruel and unusual punishment.

"We regularly get questions about why we are treating these patients," said Dr. Joseph Bick, chief medical officer at Vacaville. "The bottom line is, not only is it appropriate, but it's mandated by federal courts."

Stevens, who has fathered three children, argues in her court case that the cocktail of estrogen and testosterone-blockers the state has provided since her incarceration in 2003 are no longer adequate to combat her emotional distress. Failing to provide surgery could increase her "risk of future self-harm," wrote Dr. Denise Taylor, a medical expert who filed a brief on Stevens' behalf.

Taylor also argued that leaving Stevens on estrogen therapy could lead to the reemergence of a benign tumor removed from her brain in 2005.

Bick, who filed a declaration with the court in January defending the state's position, said the previous tumor was not believed to be caused by estrogen therapy. He said Stevens' treatment in prison has been "adequate and successful."

Perhaps the biggest threat to Stevens' case is the state's budget crisis, in the view of several transgender inmates interviewed. They worried that a judge might be reluctant to rule in her favor with the state facing hard times.

"If I were out there, I wouldn't understand, especially if I was unemployed or trying to support a family," Birrell said.

"But if you could only go into our heads for a day or two to see what we go through internally," she said, "you would get a greater appreciation of how devastating it is to be a transgender individual locked up in a man's prison."

jack.dolan@latimes.com

[Luckydwg07]

I understand the arguement. I think she is lucky to get continuing hormone treatments.(If to continue or not continue hormone treatments is seen as a life threating possibility thats understood.)
She is incarcerated for a reason- I say 3 hots & a cot. we have people on the outside that need tax money for just getting 1 or 2 hots a day and a shelter bed to rest on for a minimal amount of time and that includes children. When you break laws(murder- not respecting someone else right to life) don't ask for handouts from the govt to make you as you see yourself thats up to the individual. Normal citizen rights & to act freely are revoked when they are a prisoner-thats the whole idea.
Sorry but its just not All About Her.
Should be interesting to see what the ruling is

[AtLast]

I understand the arguement. I think she is lucky to get continuing hormone treatments.(If to continue or not continue hormone treatments is seen as a life threating possibility thats understood.)
She is incarcerated for a reason- I say 3 hots & a cot. we have people on the outside that need tax money for just getting 1 or 2 hots a day and a shelter bed to rest on for a minimal amount of time and that includes children. When you break laws(murder- not respecting someone else right to life) don't ask for handouts from the govt to make you as you see yourself thats up to the individual. Normal citizen rights & to act freely are revoked when they are a prisoner-thats the whole idea.
Sorry but its just not All About Her.
Should be interesting to see what the ruling is

It will be interesting. California is in a major financial mess as many states are. Education is facing further cuts as well as all social services. This on top of what the federal cut backs will be.

[Chancie]

I understand the arguement. I think she is lucky to get continuing hormone treatments.(If to continue or not continue hormone treatments is seen as a life threating possibility thats understood.)
She is incarcerated for a reason- I say 3 hots & a cot. we have people on the outside that need tax money for just getting 1 or 2 hots a day and a shelter bed to rest on for a minimal amount of time and that includes children. When you break laws(murder- not respecting someone else right to life) don't ask for handouts from the govt to make you as you see yourself thats up to the individual. Normal citizen rights & to act freely are revoked when they are a prisoner-thats the whole idea.
Sorry but its just not All About Her.
Should be interesting to see what the ruling is

I'm curious. Do you think people who are living in jail should get prescription medicine?

[Apocalipstic]

It's a difficult question.

I agree that many prisoners do in effect have better health care coverage than many working people not in prison, which I agree seems very unfair.

I think it depends on how the courts see being Transgender and if not paying for sex reassigment surgery is seen as cruel and usual....

I really don't know where I fall on the subject, but for me a murder change would be very different than a 3 strikes drug or burglary charge....but you can't provide medical care based on whar crime was committed?

Slippery slope.
Either way.

[Gemme]

I didn't even finish the article. I got to the section that describes how she arrived into the pen. 'nuff said for me.

Does she really think that having the surgery and being moved to a woman's prison means she won't be raped? REALLY? It just means it will be with a pipe or fist instead of a penis.

I say no. I know of many, many folks here who bust their asses to make it through life towing the line and they don't commit stupid ass crimes over CLOTHES, for Christ's sake! They pay for the surgeries that are to correct nature's mistakes on their own or at least using their own energy (if they receive donations, etc). My partner and I are trying to design 1, 3, 5, and 10 year plans so that he can have the necessary surgeries that this woman wants.

So what message would this send out? If you are trans and you still need surgery, go commit a crime in CA and they'll pay for it. Nice.

This really and truly pisses me off to my very core.

[Daywalker]

Most folks are pretty skeptical about our Rehabilition methods,
or lack thereof...within the walls of our Prison systems.

And with good damn reason. There have been folks who have paid
for their debt to society, although I doubt their victims would agree.
:candle:

With that said, would we still deny this request if they had robbed a bank,
or ran a finincial scheme on a childrens charity, or drunk drove themselves
behind bars? I think it is interesting how the perspective changes according
to the crime commited. Frankly, if we're gonna feed Death Row Inmates
for 20+ years, why would this expense be deemed as unacceptable?

:thinking:

Thinking Out Loud.

The Inmate commited a heinous crime; who is going to weigh
the crime and punishment on a scale and draw the lines?

:daywalker:

[Gemme]

Day, you bring up a good point. There is a different 'weight', if you will, depending on the type of crime commited.

I think that the worst things someone can do is to harm/abuse/molest/rape/violate/torture/etc a child and/or to kill someone. Once you take another's life, unless it's in the act of defense, I really...personally...couldn't care if that person fell off the side of the Earth.

I know others weigh other crimes differently and that's fine. But if someone I know kills another and the person they killed wasn't trying to kill or hurt them or someone else, then I would have no problem with them going to prison and not getting any special treatment, regardless of their personal situation.

To me, her rights other than food, shelter and basic medical care went out the window when she killed someone over clothes. Clothes. :blink:

[Luckydwg07]

From DAYWALKER'S post :

. Frankly, if we're gonna feed Death Row Inmates
for 20+ years, why would this expense be deemed as unacceptable?





Thinking Out Loud.


The Inmate commited a heinous crime; who is going to weigh
the crime and punishment on a scale and draw the lines?


MY REPLY Post:

Very true however lets not through out the baby with the bath water.
nourishment is a necessity for All. Boobs for One transexual is a necessity - shes going a mind F*%# on society
deathrow , life in prison not a fix.... option to sign a consent form as test subject for cancer ,aids drugs and the like thats more of a form of giving back to the society but is it conpensation for murder & will she kill again? nothing gets canceled out but where do the guilty party's desires become legitimate

[AtLast]

I didn't even finish the article. I got to the section that describes how she arrived into the pen. 'nuff said for me.

Does she really think that having the surgery and being moved to a woman's prison means she won't be raped? REALLY? It just means it will be with a pipe or fist instead of a penis.

I say no. I know of many, many folks here who bust their asses to make it through life towing the line and they don't commit stupid ass crimes over CLOTHES, for Christ's sake! They pay for the surgeries that are to correct nature's mistakes on their own or at least using their own energy (if they receive donations, etc). My partner and I are trying to design 1, 3, 5, and 10 year plans so that he can have the necessary surgeries that this woman wants.

So what message would this send out? If you are trans and you still need surgery, go commit a crime in CA and they'll pay for it. Nice.

This really and truly pisses me off to my very core.

Good point about rape in prison- no matter the gender.

You bring up my initial feelings when this story hit our CA news waves. I know a lot of transpeople that do exactly this- do a financial plan for surgeries- totally out of pocket. These are tax paying people here in CA. In some situations, insurance coverage is utilized- but damn few. The hormone treatment also needs doc visits, blood work, follow-ups, etc. Then there can be individual problems to work through.

I have no problem with basic medical care for inmates- and I don't distinquish between the crimes they committed. I do, however, as you state- don't give a flying hooray about sexual predators that kill and torture. I worked too long in victim's rights advocacy and with sexually abused kids and 99.9% of those cases in which I did expert whitness work, the perp was not new to the criminal justice system. He or she had perpetrated before.

I think a diabetic ought to get insulin, etc. and chemo therapy for inmates with cancer- essential medical treatment. Food and shelter.

Until or unless the state of CA is going to pay for these kinds of services for all transgendered people, or there are changes in insurance coverage for everyone, I am opposed to this.

Frankly, I'm more concerned for the safety and well being of public emplyees that work in prisons.

[Rockinonahigh]

If what im fixing to post makes someone mad,I appologise righ now,but I got to wright it.

I have worked for years as many of us do and have,I followed the law and stayed out of trouble cause im wired that way.Over the last 64 years I have done my best to live with what I had to live with and for the most part as I wanted to.Over the las 20 or so years I live as a male,Im just being me as I am,perfect, no its not.I wish I could have the surgeries to change how my body is but I will never have the cash to do so.I would only have top surgery done cause I can always strap it on.I already had a hysto so im half way there sa far as I can see.To think someone who had comitted a crime and doing a lotta time can have srs to make them live better flys in the face of every trans person who has done all the work to do all this themselves but what ever leagle means they use..work,saveing acount,tax refund ect.I do really feel for them, but they did the crime so in my eyes they gave up the right to use my tax money to have srs.Houseing,food,clothing proper medical care fine with me..the rest Bull s*%t.

[Daywalker]

If what im fixing to post makes someone mad,I appologise righ now,but I got to wright it.

I have worked for years as many of us do and have,I followed the law and stayed out of trouble cause im wired that way.Over the last 64 years I have done my best to live with what I had to live with and for the most part as I wanted to.Over the las 20 or so years I live as a male,Im just being me as I am,perfect, no its not.I wish I could have the surgeries to change how my body is but I will never have the cash to do so.I would only have top surgery done cause I can always strap it on.I already had a hysto so im half way there sa far as I can see.To think someone who had comitted a crime and doing a lotta time can have srs to make them live better flys in the face of every trans person who has done all the work to do all this themselves but what ever leagle means they use..work,saveing acount,tax refund ect.I do really feel for them, but they did the crime so in my eyes they gave up the right to use my tax money to have srs.Houseing,food,clothing proper medical care fine with me..the rest Bull s*%t.

Yes!

I agree.

:playingchess:

It brings to mind, although completely a separate issue ~ driving by the
corners and parks where our homless live on what they can scrape
together to eat, etc...and our Prisoners are fed 3 squares.
:|

Or they can always order a Snickers n shit like that from the Jail Store.
:police:

Many of us have paid into a system that will likely never yield
back to us the same. The Injustice of these such situations
indeed, seem desperately...out of our (the gen pop) hands.

:vigil:

:daywalker:

[Rockinonahigh]

Thank You Mr.Day.I read on yahoo that we do less and less for the needy than most countrys do.There is something fundamentaly wrong when the homeless get by on so little and the ppl who serve time amy get the extra things they think is nessary.Hog wash I say!

[Luckydwg07]

I'm curious. Do you think people who are living in jail should get prescription medicine?

I'll take a bite :)
Yes I suppose so but to me prescription is an umbrella term.(a control that requiers a doc's consent ~doesn't mean it's necessary) to keep a person alive ,for physical pain sure. the prisoner in question is on death row if she doesn't get what she desires then she will suffer psychologically~ in prison she should be prescribed medication for disappointment.

[Daywalker]

I'm curious. Do you think people who are living in jail should get prescription medicine?

Yes.


When I did not, it spawned a 26,000 word non-fiction story
of what happened to me when they did not.

http://sirdaywalker.com/send-the-pain-below/

:coffee:

:daywalker:

[Luckydwg07]

It will be interesting. California is in a major financial mess as many states are. Education is facing further cuts as well as all social services. This on top of what the federal cut backs will be.

It keeps the lawyers in a job we aren't as affluent as we once were when that happens most of the time everyone is heard because the world is listening. but not so much any more

[Blade]

All I can say is if tax dollars are going to be used for prisoners in this manner, the someone needs to start paying for my surgeries, someone being tax dollars.

[Starbuck]

Two quick responses:
Tax dollars to pay for the sex change? No, prisoners should not have this right.
Should prisoners receive medication? Yes, they are human beings too.

[AtLast]

It keeps the lawyers in a job we aren't as affluent as we once were when that happens most of the time everyone is heard because the world is listening. but not so much any more


Yes, my mind has been wondering to lawyers!

Something else I thought of that is kind of icky is that what if trans organizations that I have always felt good about and believe do a lot to fight transphobia, etc. take the stand that trans inmates should have srs paid for by the state?

My concern is about how this could play into the hands of all of the right wing taxation organizations and really be used to further promote transphobia. Some would love to use this like they did with Tranny-Care and Obama's health care reform efforts. I don't want to be associated with things like that, yet I can't back this.

Although, from a lot of the posts by trans folks here that are transitioning on their own dime, maybe this won't happen. LOL, sometimes things get pretty goofy in CA. I love my home state, but I'd rather see any public money going toward social and medical services that support transgendered people outside of the correctional system. We do have some public programs here, but they are being hit due to our very large deficit- like all social service programs.

As far as rehabilitative programs in our correctional system, I have always felt that we would be better off in the long run focusing on juvenile populations before they enter the adult system- more of a preventative focus.

Keeping my eye out for news on this here in CA. If anyone else has links/info- please post it.

[Luckydwg07]

Yes, my mind has been wondering to lawyers!

Something else I thought of that is kind of icky is that what if trans organizations that I have always felt good about and believe do a lot to fight transphobia, etc. take the stand that trans inmates should have srs paid for by the state?

My concern is about how this could play into the hands of all of the right wing taxation organizations and really be used to further promote transphobia. Some would love to use this like they did with Tranny-Care and Obama's health care reform efforts. I don't want to be associated with things like that, yet I can't back this.

Although, from a lot of the posts by trans folks here that are transitioning on their own dime, maybe this won't happen. LOL, sometimes things get pretty goofy in CA. I love my home state, but I'd rather see any public money going toward social and medical services that support transgendered people outside of the correctional system. We do have some public programs here, but they are being hit due to our very large deficit- like all social service programs.

As far as rehabilitative programs in our correctional system, I have always felt that we would be better off in the long run focusing on juvenile populations before they enter the adult system- more of a preventative focus.

Keeping my eye out for news on this here in CA. If anyone else has links/info- please post it.

Our community will never get a 100% A-OKAY from any part of society.
I appreciate you sentiment Atlast ...however it's a runaway train this system & I wouldn't call it corrections not by a long shot. I just think that we are too indulgent on thinking we are superior beings and the thought of rogue humans as part of our spieces starts a philisophical dialogue that has lasted since the human race has exsisted. what do we do with the ugly side of humanity? It still has a human face and familiar wants and needs (good & bad) as the rest of us ..it just went astray?
I agree you can tap into the young offenders at a higher % ( yes were are all numbers :-)

Bottom line there is no bottom the discussion will continue. this it a three ring circus headline grabber and does nothing for our community or the human race.

[tantalizingfemme]

To answer the question of the OP, no, a sex change (in my opinion) is beyond the scope of what any DOC facility is expected to provide for an inmate.

Secondly, who would want a state funded physician/surgeon to provide said surgery? Think that an inmate is going to to have a say as to whom the doctor/surgeon will be who will perform this specialized surgery? Imagine the recovery period in a prison infirmary.... The system is not going to pay for doctor so and so in California who specializes in blah blah blah and then let the inmate stay for a period of recovery..... come on....

I worked as a transitional case manager for HIV Positive/AIDs-Defined inmates (male and female) getting ready to move back in to the community. The medical offices in the prisons covered all necessary medical needs to ensure the inmates health.....a lot of money in medications and doctors visits in and outside of the prison... however, anything beyond.... no.

Rape happens in both men's and women's prisons, it does not discriminate. If necessary, the inmate can be placed in solitary confinement for their own safety.

I recall having a conversation with a guard at a male prison who stated that they have had/have inmates with male genitalia and breasts. The inmate cannot be sent to the women's prison, but they have to watch for the safety of the inmate in the men's prison so that inmate doesn't get harrassed, abused, raped, etc... so they put the person in solitary for their own safety.

Appropriate? Not necessarily. Safe for the inmate? Absolutely.

It does not matter what "type" of crime was committed or the amount of prison time a person received; anything beyond basic needs for health care is just that... beyond the prison health care system.

TF

[GinaSofia]

Daywalker:
I tried to quote your post but couldn't.. Prolly cause I'm reading
And texting from my phone. While it took forever to read your amazing story from my slow-ass cell, I just could not stop reading.
Thank you so much for sharing this with us.

[Martina]

There is no reason to juxtapose the needs of inmates to those of homeless people. We should be helping both populations. The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. If that weren't the case, if the government were doing their jobs, the person would not need surgery at the expense of the state. But the fact is that it is dangerous for trans folks to be in prison. And isolating them is blaming the victim. i vote for whatever keeps people the safest.

i also think it's not a bad precedent to set, the state paying for surgery. In fact, all such surgeries ought to be paid for by insurance or public insurance, if necessary. No one should go without any kind of health care because they can't afford it.

The argument that people can't get it free outside of prison is accepting a reality that is really unacceptable. Everyone who needs srs should get it.

[tantalizingfemme]

[QUOTE=Martina;324805] The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. [QUOTE]


So, the answer is sex change surgery??? What about those who aren't trans? No resolution for them? It's okay for them to get raped? Maybe the answer is to find a solution for ALL inmates... not one particular population.

[Delish]

I say no! As far as the hormones, I am even ify on that. Heres why....My brother is in prison and recently diagnosed with Lupus and in kidney failure. UNLESS he was to HAVE to be admitted into the hospital they can NOT be given pain meds which I completely understand but also having the disease as well, I think its quite in humane!
Just my $.02

[moxie]

I think a potential issue with this could be that if it is approved for the DOC to pay for the surgery, that it could send a message to people that "Hey, if I commit this crime and I am incarcerated in the state penal system (not the city/county jail) that I could get this surgery". Therefore, for some people who feel very hopeless and see as this as their only option to get the surgery, will commit crimes for this sole purpose. This might not seem logical to you (as a whole), and even preposterous, but very plausible.

Look at the recidivism rates in the US. More than 60% re-offend within 3 years (most within the first 6-12 months) of release, many of those people re-offend because of the limited options available to them upon release due to laws and regulations that vary from state-to-state. Healthcare is one of those limited options. (If you are interested in this type of reading, I recommend When Prisoners Come Home:Parole and Prisoner Reentry by Joan Petersilia)

In an ideal world, everyone would be able to get the healthcare they need and deserve, so this wouldn't be an issue and the lawsuit would be moot. But that is not how the US is in regards to healthcare currently.

[Ebon]

If you don't want to do the time don't do the crime. What did she expect to happen in PRISON! Hell no she shouldn't get surgery. I work my ass off everyday, I don't kill people and nobody is paying for shit except for me. If you don't want to get raped in prison don't kill people.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Martina;324805] The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. [QUOTE]


So, the answer is sex change surgery??? What about those who aren't trans? No resolution for them? It's okay for them to get raped? Maybe the answer is to find a solution for ALL inmates... not one particular population.

You are right on!

I agree- the premise (and I have thought this all along) in the article is faulty- does not hold water. There are many other things that can be done to prevent sexual assaults in prisons. These things have to do with how the facility is run and measures taken.

People that work in correctional institutions have expertise about this. Funds going to renovating prisons and utilizing the newer types of control mechanisms to keep both prisoners and staff safer are important. I don't know if we have any members that work in corrections, but it would be great to have info on the modern ways they are built and staffed in order to cut down (and even fully prevent) these assaults. Most of them happen because of outdated facilities it appears from what I have read. Actually, during one of my late night insomnia episodes I watched a program about how these things can be prevented by prison upgrades and building new prisons differently. Overcrowding is a problem as well.

Any inmate of any gender can be raped in prison. No one should have to fear rape, yet prison certainly isn't the only place it happens. Hell, a 16 year old HS girl was gang raped at a Prom in Richmond, CA.

[Luckydwg07]

There is no reason to juxtapose the needs of inmates to those of homeless people. We should be helping both populations. The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. If that weren't the case, if the government were doing their jobs, the person would not need surgery at the expense of the state. But the fact is that it is dangerous for trans folks to be in prison. And isolating them is blaming the victim. i vote for whatever keeps people the safest.

i also think it's not a bad precedent to set, the state paying for surgery. In fact, all such surgeries ought to be paid for by insurance or public insurance, if necessary. No one should go without any kind of health care because they can't afford it.

The argument that people can't get it free outside of prison is accepting a reality that is really unacceptable. Everyone who needs srs should get it.



Actually one can juxtapose immate needs with needs of the homeless.(alot of homeless are that way by no fault of thier own) the money is from the same pie. I just would rather see a law abiding citizen be up one more rung on the social ladder thats all.
Rape isn't just in jails- it plaugues us all

[Jess]

I saw this today and remembered this thread. While this inmates reason doesn't seem to be rape, it still brings up the question of state funding for gender reassignment/ corrective surgery.
It seems ( from this very brief article) that the prison system is trying to work with her, regarding pronoun usage and attire, however, I doubt that funding for her surgery is going to come from any Virginia budget.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Wednesday June 08, 2011


Inmate Ophelia De’lonta filed a federal lawsuit requesting the state provide her the medical care necessary to complete her sex change. While in the all-male Buckingham Correctional Center, De’lonta has been self mutilating in an attempt to remove her male genitalia.

According to the Associated Press, if she wins, she will be the first inmate to receive a state-funded sex change operations. Similar lawsuits in other states have not passed and lawmakers are working to ban taxpayer money to fund these operations.

“The notion that taxpayers are going to fund a sex change is just ridiculous,” Del. Todd Gilbert said in the article – he will seek legislation if De’lonta wins the lawsuit.

If she loses, De’lonta says she will continue trying to remove her parts and acknowledges that it could kill her, but she says she wants to be at piece.

The prison has made special allowances for feminine clothing and therapy.

More from the Associate Press:

The hormones and other treatments had kept her urges in check for years. She snapped Oct. 8 when an officer used a male pronoun toward her, despite a court order that prison workers refer to her as a woman.

“I screamed ‘She, damnit!’ becoming so overwhelmed it was hard to breathe,” De’lonta said.

Looking down, she felt repulsed and helpless. She cried herself to sleep, then hours later she prepared for her surgery attempt by covering her cell door’s window with paper and putting towels around the commode.

Copied from: www.gayrva.com

[EnderD_503]

There is no reason to juxtapose the needs of inmates to those of homeless people. We should be helping both populations. The issue behind this is that inmates should not have to fear rape in prison. If that weren't the case, if the government were doing their jobs, the person would not need surgery at the expense of the state. But the fact is that it is dangerous for trans folks to be in prison. And isolating them is blaming the victim. i vote for whatever keeps people the safest.

i also think it's not a bad precedent to set, the state paying for surgery. In fact, all such surgeries ought to be paid for by insurance or public insurance, if necessary. No one should go without any kind of health care because they can't afford it.

The argument that people can't get it free outside of prison is accepting a reality that is really unacceptable. Everyone who needs srs should get it.

Completely late on this one, but it's something I was struggling with, but then hearing from trans people I know who were incarcerated up here I guess I just think there's a lot of things to be considered when you're talking about inmates and what is "deserved" or not. I agree largely with this post, though. I think that if you live in a province/state/nation where the government does not offer to pay for SRS under any circumstances, then the priority should not be barring one part of the trans population (in this case, prison inmates) from getting SRS just because the majority don't have access to it. I think it is about setting a precedent. If prison inmates are the first ones to get government-funded SRS, and that eventually leads to the rest of the trans community getting government-funded SRS, I don't see a problem. I don't see SRS as a cosmetic surgery or a luxury, but a surgery that is often necessary as far as the mental health of the trans person involved, no matter who they are and what they've done. Unfortunately, most governments haven't recognised that yet. I don't really believe in "because I can't have it, you can't have it" kind of deal. I don't think that solves much. Both populations need it, the way I see it.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I think the state should pay for surgery for trans inmates. I fully agree that it sucks that so many people aren't able to get surgery because they can't afford it. That's why I'm doing everything I can to fight for *real* national healthcare in the US. I don't think the solution to the fact that shit sucks for some people is to make sure it sucks for everyone. Inmates are still human beings and should not have medical care withheld as punishment for their crimes.

[Nadeest]

I don't agree with the state paying for an inmate's srs surgury, however, they do pay for a lot other inmate's surguries. Why is there a difference? SRS is medically necessary even though a lot of people don't think so.
I do think that transgender women should be placed in the women's prisons, though, instead of in the men's one; and that hormone treatment should be given to them. The same thing applies to transgender men, to my mind.
Let's also remember that a lot of transgendered people end up in the underground economy primarily because people discriminate against them and often don't hire them. That obviously isn't why this person ended up in prison, however.

[Soft*Silver]

What next?? What if a prisoner says they have Body Dysmorphism Disorder (BDD) and wants to have plastic surgery because they cant go on living in the body they hate. Do we allow this? Do we allow them to get inplants and injections and so on? BDD is just as pervasive of a disorder as GID. People with BDD have cut off parts of their bodies, to rid themselves of their perceived flaws. They have starved themselves to death. They have committed suicide. In prison, I doubt we would entertain surgery as an option. Mental health counseling, yes. But not surgery.

[AtLast]

What next?? What if a prisoner says they have Body Dysmorphism Disorder (BDD) and wants to have plastic surgery because they cant go on living in the body they hate. Do we allow this? Do we allow them to get inplants and injections and so on? BDD is just as pervasive of a disorder as GID. People with BDD have cut off parts of their bodies, to rid themselves of their perceived flaws. They have starved themselves to death. They have committed suicide. In prison, I doubt we would entertain surgery as an option. Mental health counseling, yes. But not surgery.

Good point and a good comparison. Prisoners do and should get basic medical treatment while incarcerated and mental health treatment. I agree with this, but do not support the state paying for SRS or BDD surgeries.

[Breathless]

This is a very interesting debate. My opinion is, in regards to continuing hormone therapy, absolutely. If the decision was made prior to being convicted, and treatments were started prior, then it is an issue of continuing medical care. To make the decision to start while in prison, I don't think so. If someone was lets say to have rhinoplasty prior to being incarcerated would it not be humane to have their last check up to removed stitches? I have to ask, if these people were 'free' who would pay for their surgery then in the state of California? In my understanding, it is the individual, and they would have to save up substantial money to afford the surgery, I think the same person should be responsible for the cost despite being in prison. Now taking into consideration the fact that they are not able to go out into the community and seek consultations with different dr.'s, that is where I think the prison needs to be of assistance. Providing the options, however not footing the bill.
On another note, if you have made your declaration as being transgendered, and are being recognized as male, or female, then the option of which jail you wish to reside is not your choice. I don't feel that it is right for someone to say.. yes I am a woman, recognize me as such, but please just leave me in the men’s prison. All or nothing. Choose your battles wisely.

[EnderD_503]

What next?? What if a prisoner says they have Body Dysmorphism Disorder (BDD) and wants to have plastic surgery because they cant go on living in the body they hate. Do we allow this? Do we allow them to get inplants and injections and so on? BDD is just as pervasive of a disorder as GID. People with BDD have cut off parts of their bodies, to rid themselves of their perceived flaws. They have starved themselves to death. They have committed suicide. In prison, I doubt we would entertain surgery as an option. Mental health counseling, yes. But not surgery.

Sorry, but this post really fucking shocked me. Are you really comparing dysphoria to BDD? It's not an apt comparison at all, unless you believe that transfolks suffer from a delusion created by chemical imbalance (meaning, you believe they really aren't the identity they claim to be) when they suffer from dysphoria, or are suffering from an illusion about their bodies when they suffer from dysphoria or wish to alter their bodies. I see that as extremely transphobic and reminiscent of the arguments right-wing christians and anti-trans feminists use against us, when they start blabbering on about "mutilating healthy 'female' bodies" and how we shouldn't be permitted legally to undergo SRS and HRT.

BDD, unlike dysphoria, can be "treated" or "cured" through counseling and psychiatric medication. It is not necessary to change the body part in order to take away the sensation that something should not be there/should be there, and appears to be caused by chemical imbalance in the brain.

With dysphoria in transguys or transwomen, it is not something that disappears or is reduced through counseling or psychiatric medication, as it is not related to a chemical imbalance, but, instead, research suggests the actual sexual makeup of the brain is congruent with that of the sex the individual identifies with.

Mental health counseling does very, very little for dysphoria, and even the trans-friendly medical community is beginning to understand this (hence, the changes in protocol as far as starting HRT and getting SRS; as in, you no longer need a letter to do it).

[EnderD_503]

This is a very interesting debate. My opinion is, in regards to continuing hormone therapy, absolutely. If the decision was made prior to being convicted, and treatments were started prior, then it is an issue of continuing medical care. To make the decision to start while in prison, I don't think so. If someone was lets say to have rhinoplasty prior to being incarcerated would it not be humane to have their last check up to removed stitches?

I really dislike these comparisons. Do you see the difference between rhinoplasty and SRS? SRS isn't for cosmetic purposes.

I have to ask, if these people were 'free' who would pay for their surgery then in the state of California? In my understanding, it is the individual, and they would have to save up substantial money to afford the surgery, I think the same person should be responsible for the cost despite being in prison. Now taking into consideration the fact that they are not able to go out into the community and seek consultations with different dr.'s, that is where I think the prison needs to be of assistance. Providing the options, however not footing the bill.

To me this comes down to the US moving toward public healthcare, and if having the state pay for SRS for trans inmates is a step in t hat direction, I don't see the problem. In Ontario, OHIP pays for SRS for those who seek a year's worth of counseling, and I'm not sure I see the problem with that. While it's not perfect (to require counseling, imo, is wrong), it shows a positive step and changing attitudes within the medical community wherein they've begun to see the importance of SRS to the basic health needs of trans individuals.

On another note, if you have made your declaration as being transgendered, and are being recognized as male, or female, then the option of which jail you wish to reside is not your choice. I don't feel that it is right for someone to say.. yes I am a woman, recognize me as such, but please just leave me in the men’s prison. All or nothing. Choose your battles wisely.

I've known a few transfolks who have been incarcerated in Ontario prisons. You don't get to choose which prison they put you in. I've known people who start off in a male prison, get shifted over to a female prison and back and forth again. Additionally, they were treated very poorly and humiliated by the guards, placed in solitary confinement away from the general population without the basic necessities (warmth, proper food, the courtesy of being told which prison they're in etc.) The prison system, at least over here (and seems to be the same in US), does not seem to know how to deal with trans inmates, and inmates have very little control over where they go. I think it's very easy for someone who isn't trans or who isn't a trans inmate to say "all or nothing," but when you're in the actual situation with your own well-being in mind (given that nobody else seems to have it in mind), and realizing that you have very little control over your own situation, it's an entirely different ball game.

[Chancie]

I gotta say, I knew I would be sorry if I reread this thread.

Some of you are very politically conservative.

I certainly don't know as much as other members here about single payer health care

But I have to ask

In how many other so called civilized countries do people in need of medical care have to go without?

[starryeyes]

She murdered someone....over some fucking clothes. No, I don't think her life should be made any easier. Do I agree that she should be raped and harassed?? No. But, she is there for a reason. Sorry sista... No support from me. The prison should have separate areas for sensitive cases, maybe.

[AtLast]

I gotta say, I knew I would be sorry if I reread this thread.

Some of you are very politically conservative.

I certainly don't know as much as other members here about single payer health care

But I have to ask

In how many other so called civilized countries do people in need of medical care have to go without?

If I am politically "conservative" on this one- so be it, I am liberal, progressive, conservative and moderate when I look at issues depending on what is represented. This prisoner should get usual and customary health care such as annual physicals and if she developed a life threatening condition such as cancer, of course she should get medical care. Again, as in my first post, most trans people I know struggle to save for surgeries as well as hormone treatment- as well as foot the bill for counseling that they are required to have. Until or unless EVERY transgendered person is covered for medical care under a health plan in the US, I cannot support my state paying for this prisoner's. Also, the educational system in CA is a mess and in need of funds and in this Tea Party (yes, they are here in CA, too) environment, we are facing more cuts in education- even under a Democratic govenor.

I do and have supported single payer universal health care in the US for many years. So save the political stance bashing. I was quite upset with Obama not pushing for a public option during the health care reform act debate and votes- especially since at that time there was a Democratic majority in both houses of Congress.

This prisoner will be kept as safe as any other one in this facility and deserves no more than the other inmates. CA prisons provide fairly healthcare including eye care and dental. We have paid for organ transplants for prisoners as well.

Now, if you want to talk about services for minors that are in the criminal system that are serving for non-violent offenses and going through gender identity crises- I would support not only services within the system, but on going work for a time when released so that they are hooked up with support services and get care. I feel strongly that minors within our criminal justice systems could be "rehabilitated" and we do not deal effectively with how we could get them in more positive directions outside of our systems.

[Breathless]

I really dislike these comparisons. Do you see the difference between rhinoplasty and SRS? SRS isn't for cosmetic purposes.

It was not meant as a comparison but more as a medical treatment that should be continued once started. I meant no insult what so ever in saying that, as I am one of the biggest supporters when it somes to SRS.
To me this comes down to the US moving toward public healthcare, and if having the state pay for SRS for trans inmates is a step in t hat direction, I don't see the problem. In Ontario, OHIP pays for SRS for those who seek a year's worth of counseling, and I'm not sure I see the problem with that. While it's not perfect (to require counseling, imo, is wrong), it shows a positive step and changing attitudes within the medical community wherein they've begun to see the importance of SRS to the basic health needs of trans individuals.

I agree with you on this, I live in Ontario. However this case is not in Canada, it is in a state that does not cover the bill for the average person. Everyone else has to pay for it, why should someone who is in prision get better treatment then then tax paying working folk?I have huge issues with how we treat our criminals, and we treat our seniors like shit. Where is the fairness in that?

I've known a few transfolks who have been incarcerated in Ontario prisons. You don't get to choose which prison they put you in. I've known people who start off in a male prison, get shifted over to a female prison and back and forth again. Additionally, they were treated very poorly and humiliated by the guards, placed in solitary confinement away from the general population without the basic necessities (warmth, proper food, the courtesy of being told which prison they're in etc.) The prison system, at least over here (and seems to be the same in US), does not seem to know how to deal with trans inmates, and inmates have very little control over where they go. I think it's very easy for someone who isn't trans or who isn't a trans inmate to say "all or nothing," but when you're in the actual situation with your own well-being in mind (given that nobody else seems to have it in mind), and realizing that you have very little control over your own situation, it's an entirely different ball game.

I don't have to be trans to understand how it feels, I have loved someone with all my heart that is. To love someone that much, is to feel their pain, in the most helpless of ways. This is a human rights issue, and should be addressed as such. In the most severe of fashion. I agree that there is definately a lack of information and compassion for our transfolk in the prisions, and it is an absolute shame that there are still so many that act with this much hate towards those of which they do not understand. My all of nothing comment comes from the simple fact that in these situations, I feel that it is sometimes taken advantage of. In the article, there was someone quoted saying that she didn't want to move prisions because she had met partner and been together for 2 years, in my opinion, if you identify as a specific gender, you should be respected on that, however, all the way. I am by no means suggesting that these people be subjected to rape and beatings.

[SelfMadeMan]

I say no. She is in there for murder - and with committing a heinous crime, you lose the right to live life on your terms. If she is truly in danger, there means of keeping her out of general population. But paying for her SRS to me is outrageous when there are law abiding, hard working transpeople out there busting their asses trying to pay for SRS - and no one's giving them any handouts. As for prescription meds - if it's medically necessary I do think prisoners should have access to that.

[DapperButch]

Seems as though they keep popping up. Just thought people may be interested in this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/05/va-inmate-appeals-dismiss_n_1129824.html?ref=crime&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%7C118018