"Becoming Chaz"

[DapperButch]

http://www.oprah.com/own/OWN-Sneak-Peek-Becoming-Chaz

[Scorp]

Awesome. I can't wait to see this. I'm marking my calendar as a reminder this will be on.


http://www.oprah.com/own/OWN-Sneak-Peek-Becoming-Chaz

[Quintease]

http://www.oprah.com/own/OWN-Sneak-Peek-Becoming-Chaz

She's not coping is she, really. You'd think she'd be more open-minded as she was the one who was dancing on stage naked while Chaz was still a child.

[Abigail Crabby]

I'm looking forward to watching this -

I am saddened at Cher's attitude - As Chaz's Mother one would think she would embrace changes that would make her son feel complete.

[justkim]

What I find interesting is that almost every Drag Queen in America wants to be her and she has no problem with that. Yet, her son wants to be himself and she has a problem with that...Perhaps it has to do with the lime light now being on Chaz instead of her?
Just a thought to ponder...

[Miss Scarlett]

Please note that Cher is going though an adjustment too. Chaz summed it up when he said "It's hard for moms." i think she is being open minded and supportive; she merely stated her preference for this to be done privately and her concerns for her child's health.

Remember we will get a better understanding of things when the show airs and we can see the comments in context rather than the clips and sound bites put together for the preview.

[Strappie]

Think about this.....


Have you ever been with someone and they always got Chocolate Ice cream (never anything else) So you always bought them Choc. One day she tells you to get Vanilla and you "QUESTION" the vanilla choice and then ask all the questions such as.. What Why? Why Change after all this time? and so on........ Not a big deal, but some of us make it a big deal. Doesn't seem like a very big deal to be "questioning" something to trivial now does it?

Chaz has had his whole life to "think about this" Cher has only had a few years... How long did it take Chaz to figure out he was going to transition? He certainly didn't decide this over night. Cher certainly can't decide over night about her feelings either. I can't imagine what mom's go through, it can't be easy knowing she raised a daughter her entire life and now that child wants to be a man. They need time to adjust and adapt as well. Some take as much time it took the person to transition. I can't bash on Cher for that. She is open minded I think she will come around.

Just my two cents....

[Strappie]

I would also like to add....

BRAVO to Chaz for being brave enough to step in front of the camera's to shed some light on this subject and bring awareness to the trans community!!

[Rockinonahigh]

I really wish I could watch the whole show ,but I dont get that chanel,it wil be intresting to watch for shure.

[Lost_punk_boi]

Thank you for sharing this link! I had heard about it, but not much! That is sooo amazing!!! But why the Oprah Network tho?!?!?!

[wolfbittenpoet]

I think I am going to be forced to watch OWN. But I am glad it'll be on. One of the things I think is hurting Cher the most is that as Chaz transitions he looks more and more like his father.

[Strappie]

Thank you for sharing this link! I had heard about it, but not much! That is sooo amazing!!! But why the Oprah Network tho?!?!?!

To me it don't matter what network it is... It's on!! It's the only network I 'm sure that would take it on.

[Andrew, Jr.]

It should be interesting to watch.

[Elijah]

It is really hard to listen to Cher call him, "she/her", but I have an understanding of how hard it is for families who have known you as one thing for XX number of years to shift their thinking.

I watch My family struggle, too.

I hope she opens herself to a deeper understanding of her son.

~Elijah

[Ms. Tabitha]

Awesome. I can't wait to see this. I'm marking my calendar as a reminder this will be on.

T and I are excited about watching the show as well. We have emailed our families with the date and network information.
I hope the show helps my family, especially my birth mom, have a better understanding of what T went through on his own journey.


(f)

[Jess]

BUMP... reminder... tomorrow night 9:00 PM EST on OWN network.. also, just before it at 8:00 is Our America with Lisa Ling focusing on the lives of five transgendered people.

[princessbelle]

Oh ty Jess for the reminder!!! It will be a great show.

[Jess]

NP :) Caught most of the interview on Oprah this afternoon. Very well done.

[StillettoDoll]

I just finished watching Chaz and his girlfriend on Oprah today. It was really good . They seem sweet , wish they could come to the reunion.
Just saying....

[princessbelle]

I just finished watching Chaz and his girlfriend on Oprah today. It was really good . They seem sweet , wish they could come to the reunion.
Just saying....


Ohhhhhhhhh wonderful idea!!!!!!! Heck stranger things have happened. They may be all for it. Who knows huh.

[EnderD_503]

Bleargh...apparently it was playing at the Bell Lightbox last night only and I had no fucking idea. Why did they have to make it one night only? I would have gone had I known.

Anyways, now looks like I gotta wait for it to make its way to the internet...

[Rockinonahigh]

I herd that Chaz sgoing to be on Piers Morgan tonight,if so it will be on at 11:00pm my time...gonna stay up and check,with the crazyness going on since my son crashed his motorcycle I never thought t check on Oprah thia afternoon.

[T D]

As my own mother put it "you were my little girl. I dressed you up and made curls in your hair. You'll always be my little girl", etc. And it sounds too, this is very similar to how Cher feels/felt about Chastity. It's very difficult for a mom to let go of that part of her own self and the bond she has with her daughter, and allow us to be who we are. At nearly 60yo I'm struggling with this with my own mom. People are who they are and feel what they feel, and that's just who they/we are. It is what it is, and that's what we have to deal with, minute by minute, hour by hour, day by day.

Just my opinion of course, and sometimes it's not an easy opinion to live with.

[Sachita]

Thank you for sharing this link! I had heard about it, but not much! That is sooo amazing!!! But why the Oprah Network tho?!?!?!

have you ever heard of the Oprah Effect? Millions or middle america and all across the world people watching every single show or taping it. I don't think Chaz could have picked a better venue IMO.

As for Cher's reaction.... as other stated, it an adjustment. I remember talking a friend once who just discovered her son was gay. She was sadden by it and I asked her why, since she was also queer. She wasn't sad over his lifestyle choice but the difficult life he might have in today's world. Even today gays are treated unfairly and let's face it, being queer is not the easiest choice, but we have no choice, right? She was fearful of him getting hurt, killed by ignorant idiots and having to fight so hard for love. Can you imagine how fearful a mother of a transgendered child? OMG I can be the most openminded person in the world, want my child to be happy but I also want them safe. I'm sure the reaction was knee jerk and she learns to love chaz as he is, accepting and even embracing who he is.

[Strappie]

HI all,

I really want to see this. If anyone knows of an online channel I can view this please post it.

I tried all my friends and know body has this channel. :(

[Martina]

i get that people react differently but she has all the time in the world -- and the resources. She can find out about T. She doesn't have to "not know."

[Corkey]

HI all,

I really want to see this. If anyone knows of an online channel I can view this please post it.

I tried all my friends and know body has this channel. :(

Do you have a local gay bar or outreach that does?

[DapperButch]

I spent the whole documentary worrying what Jenny was going to do next that would be embarrassing for Chaz to have on film. I think I was projecting my own anxiety onto Chaz...the anxiety I had with my crazy first girlfriend when we were in public (she was QUITE "Jenny like").

[princessbelle]

I spent the whole documentary worrying what Jenny was going to do next that would be embarrassing for Chaz to have on film. I think I was projecting my own anxiety onto Chaz...the anxiety I had with my crazy first girlfriend when we were in public (she was QUITE "Jenny like").

I have to agree. I hoped to see someone that really supported him in a more positive way. You know...someone like the femmes/partners on BFP...lol. Seriously, I hope they make it. Seems they both need a lot of support. But, for sure it wasn't sugar coated at all.

I wish them both the best.

Still want someone to invite them to the reunion though.

[DomnNC]

I would imagine Cher is grieving the loss of her only daughter, even tho she's gained a son (which she always had but never knew). She's also concerned as a parent of all the health ramifications that taking T could potentially have. It's going to take time for her to adjust just as it will for all his family, friends etcetcetc. But I'm sure the more Chazz becomes more comfortable and more happy being his true self and she sees this that she will also become happy for him and more accepting of his decision. Give her time to grieve her loss, she'll come around just as most of his close circle will. He understands that as well, he's handling it quite well.

[DomnNC]

If you don't get the OWN network or you missed it you can go to the following link tomorrow and will find a link there to watch it online.

http://www.oprah.com/own

[Jesse]

I thought it admirable of both Jen and Chaz that they shared their relationship struggles, as well as Jen's struggles with sobriety.

[Camo Eagle]

HI all,

I really want to see this. If anyone knows of an online channel I can view this please post it.

I tried all my friends and know body has this channel. :(

Kinda why I miss the old days of VHS. Used to tape stuff, then we could all borrow/lend them around for all to see. Was a GREAT money maker on pay per view events. LOL

I thought the show was wonderful. Brought up a few issues in my own life that I guess I nev realized. The biggie was when Chaz talked about how he hate photos. Im the same way, and just realized it WAS bc I hated the way I looked, and didnt want to be seen/remembered in a female body.
I hav as many pics of me from last 2 yrs as, I hav of my whole life.

I applaud him for allowing us all to share in his journey.

[DomnNC]

Kinda why I miss the old days of VHS. Used to tape stuff, then we could all borrow/lend them around for all to see. Was a GREAT money maker on pay per view events. LOL

I thought the show was wonderful. Brought up a few issues in my own life that I guess I nev realized. The biggie was when Chaz talked about how he hate photos. Im the same way, and just realized it WAS bc I hated the way I looked, and didnt want to be seen/remembered in a female body.
I hav as many pics of me from last 2 yrs as, I hav of my whole life.

Exactly!!!

I applaud him for allowing us all to share in his journey.

Me too, I thought he handled the documentary quite well indeed.

[Linus]

I just watched it. Very nice that it was open, honest and wasn't just the positive or fairy tale aspects. Granted, it's still from a public person's view it's still one of the better documentaries on trans guys I've seen.

[Tommi]

It's on here now...Awesome

[Scuba]

Fantastic documentary!! Thanks to Chaz and Jen for opening up to the public. It took a lot of courage, on both of their parts, to expose themselves as they did in the film AND as they do in the aftermath of the film. Thanks to Oprah for stepping outside of the "mainstream" box and providing a safe, comfortable space for the airing of this film. I laughed, I cried and I celebrated!!

[diamondrose]

I really enjoyed the show!!

[Liam]

I liked the documentary; while I did not issue press releases or ask that my transition be filmed, I related to Chaz a great deal. I particularly enjoyed the interview with Rosie O'Donnell, which followed "Becoming Chaz."

[PinkieLee]

Like Scubadyke said, "I laughed, I cried, I celebrated"!

I applaud Chaz for allowing the mainstream media to follow his transition and being able to show people a transgender familiar face. The documentary was open, honest and well done. I like the way they portrayed not only Chaz's transition, but his loved ones transition, too.


*Ok, I'm gonna go ahead and say it, those damn hairless cats freaked me out!*

[Greyson]

I like Scuba, laughed and cried. Although I am not a public figure, I have much in common with Chaz. I have seen many documentaries, TV shows, read books, online stuff, but for me, this one knocked it out of the ballpark.

On another note, maybe it is time to drop my beloved identity of Butch. I never felt the entire woman identified stuff and the moniker of Butch served me very well. I do make the distinction of not being a cisgender man by using Transman.

I am tempted to delete this because I am doing stream of consciousness writing.

[Corkey]

I had dreams all night of the part where it was said " see flat chest".

It won't happen for me in this lifetime, but one can always play the lottery.

[AtLast]

I thought this doc was very well done- especially in terms of all the stuff thrown his way because of celebrity status parents.

For me, the commonality of many gender related issues (and the violence we unfortunately share) that I feel I have in common with transmen and women came through. I haven't felt this way with other docs on transitioning before. I think this is because it took on so much more of the human condition and how people relate to one another.

Makes me feel good even though I can't explain it all very fully.

[atomiczombie]

I liked it a lot and I thought it was done accurately and respectfully. I especially liked that Dr. Brownstein was in it, and the scene where it showed Chaz having his drains removed, well I was in that exact same office yesterday having my drains removed by Dr. Brownstein. I got a chance to see my chest with a hand-held mirror exactly like Chaz. It was kind of surreal watching someone else have the exact same experience I had just had earlier in the day. (see my posts in the FTMs and Transitioning thread for more info on my top surgery).

I could see how hard it was for Chaz and his mom to navigate this change together. She is going though her own transition around this, but I see her trying and that is great. His patience and understanding with her underscores the love between them. He was so brave to do this in public, and I hope this brings a lot more awareness and understanding to the public at large. *thumbs up*

[Thinker]

Things I liked:

It was real. They showed how life keeps going on even in the midst of trying to get your "transition checklist" checked off.

I liked that some time was dedicated to transgender youth and that there are parents who get behind their kids and are proactive.

I liked that so many members of Chaz's family were included, including his chosen family and support circle. I also think including the time with his ex was helpful. I can't quite articulate just what yet....but I thought it was significant.

Things I didn't care for:

Even though his relationship is a big part of his life, I almost felt like I was seeing stuff that was just too personal....or TMI.....some things just felt kinda "ugh" to me. I guess that's what documentaries do though.

I didn't like that his mother was in a separate, special space and that his only interaction with her was at a premiere. But then again, to do it any other way may not have been realistic. It was clear they don't spend much time together; I guess that just made me feel a little sad. There he was playing games in the home of his step-mother, but there wasn't any down time like that with his own mother.

An aside:

I found myself pretty shocked that he had to borrow money to pay for his surgery. Cher's millions aside, I just always assumed there was money there.......maybe an inheritance from Sonny??? I don't know. I mean...it's certainly not relevant. I just took note of that and was really surprised.

[Sachita]

I don't have OWN and I've been trying to find it online. The OWN network just has trailers. :(

[Blade]

I've seen several DOC's on transgender and transitioning. They were all good but this one was by far the best. I liked the "real life" stuff in it. Like Thinker I was shocked he had to borrow the money for the surgery also. I know he has the book out now, but I wonder what he does for a living. Jen is a student and I never heard either of them say ok I'm off to work. I'm not sure how expensive "T" is but I'm sure it isn't free.

[AtLast]

Things I liked:

It was real. They showed how life keeps going on even in the midst of trying to get your "transition checklist" checked off.

I liked that some time was dedicated to transgender youth and that there are parents who get behind their kids and are proactive.

I liked that so many members of Chaz's family were included, including his chosen family and support circle. I also think including the time with his ex was helpful. I can't quite articulate just what yet....but I thought it was significant.

I saw this as significant too. And part of what transpeople have to deal with. Reality.... My late partner was with a FtM for over 15 years and co-parented 2 kids with him prior to transitioning. She just couldn't remain with him and be who she was- a lesbian after he came to really finding himself. But, she felt a lot of guilt about this, too. She loved him very much. Through the years as they remained friends and co-parents, they were able to work through what was a very painful situation for both. Sometimes it was hard for me because at the start of our relationship, she questioned me a lot about my gender identification and if I ever felt that I was really a man. She actually had trust issues around a butch woman remaining a butch woman. We worked through that, too. This is just a multi-faceted, extremely complex journey that can have an influence on so many things.

Things I didn't care for:

Even though his relationship is a big part of his life, I almost felt like I was seeing stuff that was just too personal....or TMI.....some things just felt kinda "ugh" to me. I guess that's what documentaries do though.

I had some twinges like this, too. makes me feel a little better that a transperson is articulating this. Probably because I kept smacking myself about these feelings due to not being trans. I think it is just about how we all have our own personal boundaries with things. Thanks.


I didn't like that his mother was in a separate, special space and that his only interaction with her was at a premiere. But then again, to do it any other way may not have been realistic. It was clear they don't spend much time together; I guess that just made me feel a little sad. There he was playing games in the home of his step-mother, but there wasn't any down time like that with his own mother.

I have hope that they will work through what keeps them "separate."


An aside:

I found myself pretty shocked that he had to borrow money to pay for his surgery. Cher's millions aside, I just always assumed there was money there.......maybe an inheritance from Sonny??? I don't know. I mean...it's certainly not relevant. I just took note of that and was really surprised.

This shocked me some, too.

[The Oopster]

I like the documentary a lot my only problem with it was the "aggressive scenes because of T" I know some people get more aggressive on T but others like me mellow out. I just didn't like that it reinforced that "image" of someone on T.

[AtLast]

I like the documentary a lot my only problem with it was the "aggressive scenes because of T" I know some people get more aggressive on T but others like me mellow out. I just didn't like that it reinforced that "image" of someone on T.

I wondered how our trans guys might feel about this. It needs to be addressed, but it is sensitive due to stereotyping (the whole "roid-rage" misinformation). My impression has been that it does vary individually and also, some guys really do a lot of work around this. They prepare via support networks and groups. A lot of trans men I know in real-time also can get angry about "excuses" being made about this because they feel it is something one has to take personal responsibility for and that if someone has a bad temper to begin with- it ain't all the T. might not be the T at all. We all have to work on our patience and temper if we find ours is volitile, not just transmen.

It seems like most of you do feel this documentary is one to recommend to people- am I right about this? I don't want to tell someone it is helpful and accurate based upon my take on it as a non-trans person. Also, it has an awful lot to take in- is it the best one available for people that really have very little knowledge on the subject? Would like opinions on this. Thanks.

[DapperButch]

Things I liked:

It was real. They showed how life keeps going on even in the midst of trying to get your "transition checklist" checked off.

I liked that some time was dedicated to transgender youth and that there are parents who get behind their kids and are proactive.

I liked that so many members of Chaz's family were included, including his chosen family and support circle. I also think including the time with his ex was helpful. I can't quite articulate just what yet....but I thought it was significant.

Things I didn't care for:

Even though his relationship is a big part of his life, I almost felt like I was seeing stuff that was just too personal....or TMI.....some things just felt kinda "ugh" to me. I guess that's what documentaries do though.
I didn't like that his mother was in a separate, special space and that his only interaction with her was at a premiere. But then again, to do it any other way may not have been realistic. It was clear they don't spend much time together; I guess that just made me feel a little sad. There he was playing games in the home of his step-mother, but there wasn't any down time like that with his own mother.

An aside:

I found myself pretty shocked that he had to borrow money to pay for his surgery. Cher's millions aside, I just always assumed there was money there.......maybe an inheritance from Sonny??? I don't know. I mean...it's certainly not relevant. I just took note of that and was really surprised.

Yes, that is what made me uncomfortable too. I felt uncomfortable seeing their "stuff" ("issues"), if you know what I mean. I felt intrusive, even knowing they were the ones that set the boundaries of what is seen by the audience.

[DapperButch]

I wondered how our trans guys might feel about this. It needs to be addressed, but it is sensitive due to stereotyping (the whole "roid-rage" misinformation). My impression has been that it does vary individually and also, some guys really do a lot of work around this. They prepare via support networks and groups. A lot of trans men I know in real-time also can get angry about "excuses" being made about this because they feel it is something one has to take personal responsibility for and that if someone has a bad temper to begin with- it ain't all the T. might not be the T at all. We all have to work on our patience and temper if we find ours is volitile, not just transmen.

It seems like most of you do feel this documentary is one to recommend to people- am I right about this? I don't want to tell someone it is helpful and accurate based upon my take on it as a non-trans person. Also, it has an awful lot to take in- is it the best one available for people that really have very little knowledge on the subject? Would like opinions on this. Thanks.

I wouldn't say that the video supplied "information" on the process or anything. I think it was just more about Chaz's experience with some information thrown in. Meaning, the focus was about him and his process, not specifically about how to get on T or set up for surgery or anything like that.

I think it depends on what your goals are in seeking out a documentary on transgendered/transexual people. For example, if I was going to transition, I would probably choose the Lisa Ling trans documentary to share with my mother over this one, as I think that it gives more of a "feel" of the process and more information. But, if I wanted to "normalize" trans life I might choose this doc.

I dunno, those are my thoughts this morning. I may need more coffee. :seeingstars:

[Thinker]

I wondered how our trans guys might feel about this. It needs to be addressed, but it is sensitive due to stereotyping (the whole "roid-rage" misinformation). My impression has been that it does vary individually and also, some guys really do a lot of work around this. They prepare via support networks and groups. A lot of trans men I know in real-time also can get angry about "excuses" being made about this because they feel it is something one has to take personal responsibility for and that if someone has a bad temper to begin with- it ain't all the T. might not be the T at all. We all have to work on our patience and temper if we find ours is volitile, not just transmen.

It seems like most of you do feel this documentary is one to recommend to people- am I right about this? I don't want to tell someone it is helpful and accurate based upon my take on it as a non-trans person. Also, it has an awful lot to take in- is it the best one available for people that really have very little knowledge on the subject? Would like opinions on this. Thanks.

I wouldn't say that the video supplied "information" on the process or anything. I think it was just more about Chaz's experience with some information thrown in. Meaning, the focus was about him and his process, not specifically about how to get on T or set up for surgery or anything like that.

I think it depends on what your goals are in seeking out a documentary on transgendered/transexual people. For example, if I was going to transition, I would probably choose the Lisa Ling trans documentary to share with my mother over this one, as I think that it gives more of a "feel" of the process and more information. But, if I wanted to "normalize" trans life I might choose this doc.

I dunno, those are my thoughts this morning. I may need more coffee. :seeingstars:

I agree with Dapper. This really was about "Becoming Chaz".....which is what he set out to do. In the documentary, his surgery is already set up.....pre- and post-concerns already addressed. In another segment, he puts on a suit and meets up with an advocate.......sometime later, his corrected license arrives in the mail. (Just to name two examples...)

***As a matter of fact, I remember getting a kind of wide-eyed look during his pre-surgical consult because it was sooooo rushed and vague (in my opinion, of course). I kind of think that was for the sake of the cameras/film and that Chaz had already spent some time with Dr. B.

So there wasn't anything in there about *how* to start and move through those processes. And I'm not suggesting that there should have been; that wasn't the focus of this particular documentary.

There are lists upon lists on the internet that a questioning person can use as resources to begin the work of creating his or her plan for transition. That's would I recommend........that and sitting down with someone who has been through it so they can answer some questions and help as the individual formulates his or her own plan.

[citybutch]

I had mixed feelings about the documentary. I admire Chaz because of his courage to really bring FtM out to the forefront of the conversation ( documentary, conversations with Oprah, article in NYTimes, etc). I think it has taken much courage to go through this transition in front of the world. I know Chaz has had media exposure his whole life... and that it may have been impossible to do this in private... but I still admire his embrace of it... Amazing...

In many ways I lost respect for Chaz though... I know depression, I know wanting to sit on a couch for a year playing video games, I know emotional pain. We all do. There were times I felt Chaz is a bit spoiled... He has a girlfriend who is working through a Master's degree and he sat on the couch for a YEAR playing video games? There is so much to be done on this planet... I don't know what Chaz does for work.. if he does work... I know he is an activist at this point as a transman... but besides that I don't see much activity ... and maybe it was just my perception.. but what an opportunity for activist work! Chaz has a beautiful home.. That KITCHEN ... omgoodness. Clearly, he has assets... perhaps it is Cher's, I don't know. Perhaps he has made a living of his own... I don't know. But there were times I was just sitting there saying to myself "Buck up Chaz... get off the couch, stop bitching, and DO something." I know this video is one way. I know speaking at rallies, is one way, I know going through the transition in such a public way is one way... but there are many of us who do ALL of this and still have full time jobs. And if he IS doing stuff... I wish it had been included in the complexity of Becoming Chaz

Just was what I was thinking during the documentary....

[Greyson]

I had mixed feelings about the documentary. I admire Chaz because of his courage to really bring FtM out to the forefront of the conversation ( documentary, conversations with Oprah, article in NYTimes, etc). I think it has taken much courage to go through this transition in front of the world. I know Chaz has had media exposure his whole life... and that it may have been impossible to do this in private... but I still admire his embrace of it... Amazing...

In many ways I lost respect for Chaz though... I know depression, I know wanting to sit on a couch for a year playing video games, I know emotional pain. We all do. There were times I felt Chaz is a bit spoiled... He has a girlfriend who is working through a Master's degree and he sat on the couch for a YEAR playing video games? There is so much to be done on this planet... I don't know what Chaz does for work.. if he does work... I know he is an activist at this point as a transman... but besides that I don't see much activity ... and maybe it was just my perception.. but what an opportunity for activist work! Chaz has a beautiful home.. That KITCHEN ... omgoodness. Clearly, he has assets... perhaps it is Cher's, I don't know. Perhaps he has made a living of his own... I don't know. But there were times I was just sitting there saying to myself "Buck up Chaz... get off the couch, stop bitching, and DO something." I know this video is one way. I know speaking at rallies, is one way, I know going through the transition in such a public way is one way... but there are many of us who do ALL of this and still have full time jobs. And if he IS doing stuff... I wish it had been included in the complexity of Becoming Chaz

Just was what I was thinking during the documentary....


I too had similar thoughts as I took in the detail of his home, the neighborhoods, his friends and family. I like Thinker was surprised that Chaz borrowed the money for top surgery from his sponsor. The video game thing I could not relate too but sitting on a couch for one year I could.

There was a period in my life a few years back that it all just fell apart for me. I am grateful that because of the career I have chosen, I was able to take the time off. I suspect that Chaz has privilege most of us here do not. His privilege, "celebrity" has provided for the opportunity to bring Trans people and issues to the consciousness of main stream.

I am concerned that many will think that all Transmen think, feel and experience their gender identity in the same fashion. I wish there was greater discussion of the various shades of "Trans" under the umbrella of Transmen. I realize the documentary is about becoming Chaz, but in all of the various interviews and media blitz taking place right now, I have not heard anything about this is Chaz's experience and there are so many that have a different perspective. After all does mainstream take for granted that all cisgendered men are replicas of one another?

After all is said and done, IMO, I believe his documentary will bring greater communication and build bridges that assist in making this a better world.

[violaine]

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/10/136177386/through-transition-chastity-becomes-chaz

[Linus]

I too had similar thoughts as I took in the detail of his home, the neighborhoods, his friends and family. I like Thinker was surprised that Chaz borrowed the money for top surgery from his sponsor. The video game thing I could not relate too but sitting on a couch for one year I could.

There was a period in my life a few years back that it all just fell apart for me. I am grateful that because of the career I have chosen, I was able to take the time off. I suspect that Chaz has privilege most of us here do not. His privilege, "celebrity" has provided for the opportunity to bring Trans people and issues to the consciousness of main stream.

I am concerned that many will think that all Transmen think, feel and experience their gender identity in the same fashion. I wish there was greater discussion of the various shades of "Trans" under the umbrella of Transmen. I realize the documentary is about becoming Chaz, but in all of the various interviews and media blitz taking place right now, I have not heard anything about this is Chaz's experience and there are so many that have a different perspective. After all does mainstream take for granted that all cisgendered men are replicas of one another?

After all is said and done, IMO, I believe his documentary will bring greater communication and build bridges that assist in making this a better world.


Your not the only one: http://www.autostraddle.com/chaz-bono-doesnt-speak-for-me-88312/

It's interesting to see what's happening on Chaz's forums. I've been surprised (or perhaps not so much) to see all of the "Cher" fans starting to show and wanting to talk to Chaz. There have been some interesting side-effects, including the link above being discussed.

I've also noticed people tying Chaz' transition to what it's like to being bi, bdsm (one person said that they identified as "being bdsm" since age 5) and so on. Kind of surreal in some ways..

[Corkey]

What I find and have thanks to my wife, is that his girlfriend has issues to work through as well. We didn't get to see much of what it means for her, and I think that was kind of self serving for Chaz. Often in these threads we discuss what is happening for the FtM, and totally forget that they have partners, when they do, and we skim right over what is going on for the partner.
I just want us all to be aware it isn't all about us, there are other people in our lives that matter just as much as our finding our way in this world.

[AtLast]

I agree with Dapper. This really was about "Becoming Chaz".....which is what he set out to do. In the documentary, his surgery is already set up.....pre- and post-concerns already addressed. In another segment, he puts on a suit and meets up with an advocate.......sometime later, his corrected license arrives in the mail. (Just to name two examples...)

***As a matter of fact, I remember getting a kind of wide-eyed look during his pre-surgical consult because it was sooooo rushed and vague (in my opinion, of course). I kind of think that was for the sake of the cameras/film and that Chaz had already spent some time with Dr. B.

So there wasn't anything in there about *how* to start and move through those processes. And I'm not suggesting that there should have been; that wasn't the focus of this particular documentary.

There are lists upon lists on the internet that a questioning person can use as resources to begin the work of creating his or her plan for transition. That's would I recommend........that and sitting down with someone who has been through it so they can answer some questions and help as the individual formulates his or her own plan.

I wouldn't say that the video supplied "information" on the process or anything. I think it was just more about Chaz's experience with some information thrown in. Meaning, the focus was about him and his process, not specifically about how to get on T or set up for surgery or anything like that.

I think it depends on what your goals are in seeking out a documentary on transgendered/transexual people. For example, if I was going to transition, I would probably choose the Lisa Ling trans documentary to share with my mother over this one, as I think that it gives more of a "feel" of the process and more information. But, if I wanted to "normalize" trans life I might choose this doc.

I dunno, those are my thoughts this morning. I may need more coffee. :seeingstars:


Thank you both. Yes, "the audience" is what I was thinking about, even though I think this doc has some real merit. I did think about some people in my life/family that I have tried to "educate" about the full range of gender- and realized this one would be too much for them (TMI). They would represent a "general audience."

Also, LOL... I do want a "stamp of approval" from transpeople if I am going to recommend something to friends, family about the subject. It's hard- I do a lot of eye-rolling myself with comments from people outside of our community.

[Andrew, Jr.]

After watching the documentary, and then all the late night shows he was on, I am a bit puzzled over his finances. Rosie and I talked about it and thought maybe his home was paid for by the residuals he rec'd from his inheritance from his father (IF he got anything at all or if it went to his stepmother). He is driving a pretty decent SUV, has a nice yard, pool, hot tub, and the clothes. Then says he had to borrow money for his top surgery. Did he have to borrow money for his hrt and his psych. therapy as well? Yes, he lives in the public eye, and had to go thru his transition publically. However, what is his job? What is his g/f job since graduating from her master's program? How does he pay for his trips to go to The Spirit Conference?

I also wonder if his docs were doing the services "pro-bono" because of his celebrity status and knowing about the documentary they were going to be involved in it. The same for his attorney being present for the top surgery. That bill must have been nothing short of huge.

[Corkey]

After watching the documentary, and then all the late night shows he was on, I am a bit puzzled over his finances. Rosie and I talked about it and thought maybe his home was paid for by the residuals he rec'd from his inheritance from his father (IF he got anything at all or if it went to his stepmother). He is driving a pretty decent SUV, has a nice yard, pool, hot tub, and the clothes. Then says he had to borrow money for his top surgery. Did he have to borrow money for his hrt and his psych. therapy as well? Yes, he lives in the public eye, and had to go thru his transition publically. However, what is his job? What is his g/f job since graduating from her master's program? How does he pay for his trips to go to The Spirit Conference?

I also wonder if his docs were doing the services "pro-bono" because of his celebrity status and knowing about the documentary they were going to be involved in it. The same for his attorney being present for the top surgery. That bill must have been nothing short of huge.


The attorney was a friend of his, and as far as his finances go, its none of our business. I sure wouldn't want people questioning where I got my money. He may or may not received any monies from his dad's estate, but still, really we've no expectation of this knowledge and he doesn't owe anyone any explanation.

[Rockinonahigh]

I watched Chazz on Piers Morgan last night the show was pretty good,unfourtunatly I didnt see the doc cause I dont get own.I was surprised as anyone about that he had to borrow $$ for top surgery,my son watched most of the show with me and the things he ask me were long time in comeing between us.One thing he ask was did I feel the same way about my cheaticels as Chazz..I said ..yes.Then he as why I havent persued top surgery?I told him that money was one thing..another was how he would deal with the changes,how people he knew would feel ect.Then I was ask how much dose this top urgery cost..I really have forgotten as I just see no chanch of me doing that at my age as well as health issues..I told him sevberal thousand at least...Besides no one dose that surgery hear even tho I have herd someone dose, im not really shure.All this made both of us do some thin king wich is good.

[julieisafemme]

I enjoyed the documentary. I actually thought as a partner that many of the issues we deal with were shown and explored through Jen. I found their relationship very hard to watch. Their was a lot of tension and grief that I could feel. When she said she has to get know him over and over as things change and progress I could really relate to that. You do never know what is in store! A physical change, a different way of relating. Some could be just normal changes couples go through but there is usually a question or thought 'is this transition related'.

What I really would have liked to have seen is more about how they arrived at the idea that they are now a straight couple. I don't think all couples get to that place. I am not there yet. My concern is that the general public will look at Chaz and think that this is how it is for every transman.

I do though very much appreciate his coming forward and sharing his story. Oprah is big time mainstream. I am hoping this will contribute towards transpeople being recognized and accepted for who they are.

[The Oopster]

I enjoyed the documentary. I actually thought as a partner that many of the issues we deal with were shown and explored through Jen. I found their relationship very hard to watch. Their was a lot of tension and grief that I could feel. When she said she has to get know him over and over as things change and progress I could really relate to that. You do never know what is in store! A physical change, a different way of relating. Some could be just normal changes couples go through but there is usually a question or thought 'is this transition related'.

What I really would have liked to have seen is more about how they arrived at the idea that they are now a straight couple. I don't think all couples get to that place. I am not there yet. My concern is that the general public will look at Chaz and think that this is how it is for every transman.

I do though very much appreciate his coming forward and sharing his story. Oprah is big time mainstream. I am hoping this will contribute towards transpeople being recognized and accepted for who they are.

I thought it was very good on the relationship(s) part of transition.

Someone earlier was taken back that the interview with Cher were seperate, yet I could relate to that. If my mom was being interviewed it would be far more comfortable for both of us for it be seperate.

I saw the emphasis to be more on the emotional and relational aspects of transition then the nity grity struggles and process of transition.

[Blade]

I think that those of us who were shocked that he borrowed money for his surgery and that he had such a nice place and those who've questioned, including myself how he makes his living, I don't think we were being nosey. For me personally I am curious as to how anyone pays for the surgery. I don't know how I will ever pay for it. I know some folks use credit cards some probably save for it or borrow for it.

For me I'd have to save a small fortune to have the surgery because I'd have to have enough money to pay my bills while I was out of work and who really knows how long that would be, since it is likely different for each person depending on the job they hold.

I think we all realize he could be living off of something his Dad might have left him, but if he is I think he wouldn't have borrowed the money to have it done. Maybe I will ask the finance question in the trans zone.

[Tommi]

I just watched Chazz and Jenny on Piers Morgan. Glad to have seen all of the coverage to date. I saw them treated respectfully and openly by Piers, and am glad he did the interview. In this show, I saw a maturation of the two of them and Chazz knowing part of this was the leveling out his T level.

[Miss Scarlett]

This came in an email from SheWired/The Advocate

http://www.shewired.com/g-spot/chaz-bono%E2%80%99s-inspiring-%E2%80%98transition%E2%80%99

Also the latest issue of People Magazine (the one with Shania Twain on the cover) has a pretty good article about Chaz and his book.

[Duchess]

I really loved this. Chaz is a very courageous man for being so open about his transition and pill addiction. Awesome person, but the girlfriend is super annoying!!!

Duchess

[citybutch]

I just bought Chaz's book Transition. Was expensive... but want to see what else Chaz has going on! Will comment as I get to it...!

Anyone else read it yet?

[theoddz]

I just bought Chaz's book Transition. Was expensive... but want to see what else Chaz has going on! Will comment as I get to it...!

Anyone else read it yet?

For those who own Kindles, the wireless Kindle version of this book is available for $12.99. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Andrew, Jr.]

Corkey,

I wasn't being any different than anyone else thinking about Chaz's finances. He was the one who brought it up. I also have no idea of the relationship Chaz and his attorney have. No clue. I have not bought his book on tape, nor have I read the People magazine article, and so on.

I apologize if I offended or insulted anyone.

[Leigh]

I hope to buy it at some point, looks great to Me :-)

[Corkey]

Corkey,

I wasn't being any different than anyone else thinking about Chaz's finances. He was the one who brought it up. I also have no idea of the relationship Chaz and his attorney have. No clue. I have not bought his book on tape, nor have I read the People magazine article, and so on.

I apologize if I offended or insulted anyone.


Perhaps you missed it in the program where Chaz said the attorney was his friend. As far as his finances, it just isn't any of our business. I would never share my finances with anyone, that is a privacy issue and one that I respect.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I am leaving this thread, now.

[sweetfemme247]

yeah me too,

[theoddz]

I dunno, I kinda see where Andrew is going with his curiosity (and mine, too, btw) about how Chaz managed to pay for everything, his celebrity status and family name aside. In fact, I'll own up to having those same questions in my mind as well.

I think that, as transmen, we DO wonder about finances, because that detail is exactly what keeps many transPEOPLE from being able to go through the transition process. Employment is the other valid question. A LOT of guys who transition lose jobs, family, etc.. This turns life, as we knew it before, on its very ear, so yes, we do wonder about that. Finances ARE an issue, and when you put something like this in the public eye, I think it's reasonable to then be honestly curious as to how Chaz financed his transition. I think a little more could have (and maybe should have) been revealed about Chaz's circumstances, since this is a very big part of the transition process for everyone else.

I paid entirely out of pocket for Every. Single. Thing. in my transition, at first. It wasn't until I got going a bit that I was able to get the VA to cover my T and the lab followup. I paid entirely out of pocket for my top surgery. Thank goodness I already had years of tenured employment with the Federal Gov't under my belt and protections as a Disabled Veteran, or I might have found myself out of a job the moment I mentioned "transition" to my employer. These ARE valid questions.

Insurance doesn't cover medical transition, for the most part, and many, many transpeople don't even have money for traditional medical insurance anyway, so I think that the curiosity surrounding Chaz's finances IS justified. Maybe he was just saving those details for his book?? MY opinion is that, if he's going to be putting a "face" on transfolks and offering up his own experience to the public eye, then he should perhaps be a bit more forthcoming with the financial details of his transition. :winky:

My .02

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Corkey]

I come from a different generation I guess where questioning anyones finances is just not done. He's an author, he works with youth, those are both fine professions. How much he makes and from where, none of my business.
As for folks leaving the thread, stay and participate.

[theoddz]

I come from a different generation I guess where questioning anyones finances is just not done. He's an author, he works with youth, those are both fine professions. How much he makes and from where, none of my business.
As for folks leaving the thread, stay and participate.

Ya, Bro, I so see your point, too, and I agree that one's finances are generally regarded as being a very personal issue and not up for public scrutiny. I certainly don't want prying eyes on my money, either. I totally get that and agree with you!!!

Chaz chose to go public with this process, however, and I certainly applaud his personal strength and inner resolve. It also takes money and the money part of it is so huge for so many. The struggle to become who we are is very difficult, but the money end of it is equally as daunting and sometimes presents an insurmountable obstacle for so many, many people. That's why I think it's so important to be just as transparent with that part of it.

Chaz did say that he had to borrow the money for his top surgery, and that's enough information for me, at least. I did, however, notice his nice home, furnishings, clothes, etc., and wonder how he supported himself, moneywise. His girlfriend is a student, as it was said, but I didn't see why Chaz didn't bring up what he'd been doing for a living (income), prior to his transition process. I was wondering if he had to deal with the employment issues that transition involves, because that's a big deal, too, especially in these days and times when transpeople commonly have fewer protections against discrimination in the workplace than GLB's do, in a lot of places. Outing yourself to an employer is a big thing in the process of transition.

This is why I still have questions about Chaz's transition and I'm wondering if the book he's just published will contain any more details of his transition. I guess I'll have to read the book. :winky:

I, too, wish others would stay and participate in the discussion. :)

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[citybutch]

I think there are class issues which can raise some of these questions ... and to me they can be valid questions depending how they are framed. I don't think there was judgment in the questions posed at all... but that is me....

Perhaps what the dialogue that is happening here is reflecting is a desire to know more... that the documentary asked so many questions that were left unanswered... or perhaps, depending on the viewers perspective there were a lot of unanswered issues...

I know it must have been hard for Chaz to fit this all into a 90 minute (did I get the time wrong?) docu... and it is refreshing (for me anyway) to start his book and have come key phrases already made:

"My books were heartfelt attempts to give something back" (page 2)

"I can remember going to Washington, DC while my father was still alive.... I remember thinking at that moment how cool it would be to run for office one day... to serve my country... But then it occurred to me that I have to be called a "congresswoman"- and that one word just stopped me short" (page 3)

I will post more... but what I can say is... Run Chaz... I bet you could do some great things... You have courage that not many politicians exhibit these days...I just got back from a Victory Fund strategizing session. Now there is an organization that you could get involved in (if you already aren't).

(BTW, I am only on page 18)

[Leigh]

I can see both sides as well, being curious about where he got the money from for his top surgery but unless he chooses to divulge that information it doesnt matter to Me where he got it from ............ it just makes Me happy to know he was able to get it done :-)

[Mister Bent]

The only mention of paying for his top surgery that I recall was when he introduced his friends and said they paid for his surgery. Did he actually talk about needing the money, being unable to afford it otherwise, or borrowing it from them? Maybe I just missed that part.

This is one person's story, not a research guide. We can be as judgy as we want to be about how his surgery and other aspects of his life are financed, but I don't believe we have a right to know, nor is it something he should have to disclose.

[Thinker]

The only mention of paying for his top surgery that I recall was when he introduced his friends and said they paid for his surgery. Did he actually talk about needing the money, being unable to afford it otherwise, or borrowing it from them? Maybe I just missed that part.

This is one person's story, not a research guide. We can be as judgy as we want to be about how his surgery and other aspects of his life are financed, but I don't believe we have a right to know, nor is it something he should have to disclose.



If I remember correctly, it was written under the names of the friends that he borrowed the money from them.

[Mister Bent]

If I remember correctly, it was written under the names of the friends that he borrowed the money from them.

I remember thinking at the time, that's a hell of a gift!

[citybutch]

Just as an FYI... (and this is something I can attest to)... one may have very nice things (home, car, etc)... even these days, one may be asset rich but cash poor... It ALL depends on how one's estate is set up. Chaz may have access to some cash flow through a trust... and assets may be given... but no real intense cash flow to go above and beyond. I am not saying this is Chaz's situation... I am just saying it could be a reality...

With something like a Family Charitable Foundation, one may have amazing cash flow... but that cash flow has to be spent in the name of the charitable guidelines of the foundation (which is strict rules established by the IRS)... so even with nice cash flow one may be limited on how that cash flow is utilized.

That being said... My points were just that with whatever resources Chaz may have, I would have loved to have seen a little bit of something on his privilege (WHATEVER that may be)... I think a lot of the questions may be coming from those types of confusion... and not out of any disrespect to Chaz.

[Thinker]

and not out of any disrespect to Chaz.

Indeed.

I don't think anyone in here has intended *any* disrespect to Chaz. At all.

I just chalk it up to curiousity.

[Corkey]

LOL I guess I'm just not that nosey LOL

[Soon]

Finally it is on over here!

[Thinker]

LOL I guess I'm just not that nosey LOL

Hmmmm.... I see being curious and being nosey as two different things. I don't consider myself a nosey person AT ALL, but I do admit to seeing/hearing things that beg questions for me......make me curious.

I never mean harm by it, and there's not usually judgment involved. I just assume that's the case with most people until they give me a reason to believe otherwise.

[Leigh]

The documentary is just starting here in My area of Canada, so I think I'll have more of an opinion on this kinda stuff once I'm done watching it :-)

[~Bo]

I thought it said that the friends "loaned" him the money.

[Mister Bent]

Finally it is on over here!

Please, do us all a favor and tape or otherwise transcribe what is said about the financing of his top surgery and his friends.

Thanks, Jo!

[Soon]

Please, do us all a favor and tape or otherwise transcribe what is said about the financing of his top surgery and his friends.

Thanks, Jo!



I'm listening for it!

[Soon]

I'm trying to keep an open mind about Jen, but she is bugging me a bit. :|

(i.e. squealing while he is in hospital gown, "I've never seen you in a dress...you're in a mumu!" He had to tell her to be quiet.

[DomnNC]

His friends that he was sitting down to lunch with loaned him the money. It wasn't a gift but a loan. Apparently, he intends to pay them back.

[amiyesiam]

I binged "chaz bono income"
first article

Chaz's friends lent him the money
he has money coming in but didn't have the checks yet
it was to be a short term loan

[Leigh]

Wow, 6 1/2 lbs gone after the chest surgery ~ I'm figuring once Mine are gone I'll have also lost that amount (but its nice to see him happy afterwards even if he was doped up on pain meds) :)

[Thinker]

I'm listening for it!

Cool. Check the caption where it shows the names of the two friends. I believe it was written underneath their names.

[Thinker]

I found this from an article online. While it does mention the two women who loaned him the money for the surgery, it also brings up a part of the documentary that really stood out to me.....the "awkward silence" when Chaz made mention of a sex drive that women are somehow unable to experience/feel.

Midway through "Becoming Chaz," the raw and revelatory documentary about Chaz (nee Chastity) Bono's physical transition from female to male, Chaz visits his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor and her partner to show them the results of his recent chest surgery. The women, who loaned Chaz the money to have his breasts removed, have prepared a lovely brunch and while Chaz chows down, he eagerly describes the side effects of his transition, which includes regular doses of testosterone. Not only does he find himself increasingly unable to abide women's "gabbing," he tells them, his sex drive has increased enormously.

"It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is."

"Huh," says his sponsor. And while Bono, oblivious, continues to eat, the two women sit, frozen in a brief but excruciating pause. It all comes down to chemistry, after all.



Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/09/2862943/becoming-chaz-premiering-tuesday.html#ixzz1MT2iXKE3


ETA: I found myself grimacing during this segment.

[~Bo]

OWN keeps rerunning it. It's been on at lease 4 times since the premier last Tuesday.

[Soon]

"Jane and her partner loaned Chaz the money for the surgery."

[Leigh]

I just saw the part where he visits his sponsor Jane and her partner who loaned him the money for the surgery, and it was really sweet that Jane was so emotional cuz she was so happy for him :-)

[Rockinonahigh]

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

[citybutch]

That was a painful and surprisingly sexist comment. And it was painful for me to hear as well.... and untrue...

I think, however, it may reflect Chaz's experience's of his own body when he was female bodied before transition. Perhaps... and this is purely conjecture... but perhaps Chaz had a very low libido or experiences very low libido due to his lack of connection to his female body. I believe the comment was a deep reflection of Chaz and nothing more...



I found this from an article online. While it does mention the two women who loaned him the money for the surgery, it also brings up a part of the documentary that really stood out to me.....the "awkward silence" when Chaz made mention of a sex drive that women are somehow unable to experience/feel.

Midway through "Becoming Chaz," the raw and revelatory documentary about Chaz (nee Chastity) Bono's physical transition from female to male, Chaz visits his Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor and her partner to show them the results of his recent chest surgery. The women, who loaned Chaz the money to have his breasts removed, have prepared a lovely brunch and while Chaz chows down, he eagerly describes the side effects of his transition, which includes regular doses of testosterone. Not only does he find himself increasingly unable to abide women's "gabbing," he tells them, his sex drive has increased enormously.

"It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is."

"Huh," says his sponsor. And while Bono, oblivious, continues to eat, the two women sit, frozen in a brief but excruciating pause. It all comes down to chemistry, after all.



Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2011/05/09/2862943/becoming-chaz-premiering-tuesday.html#ixzz1MT2iXKE3


ETA: I found myself grimacing during this segment.

[atomiczombie]

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

I used the same Dr as Chaz, and mine was a little over 8 grand.

[Thinker]

Its been a long time since I knew ,but how much is top surgery?I mean no disrespect to anyone by asking because I was told there was a doc hear that would do a sevire reduction I doubt its the same thing but the price is way less so ive herd.Tomorrow im caling his office to see about the price cause im curious.

I've seen a range of (US money) $5,000-$9,000.

[Soon]

That was a painful and surprisingly sexist comment. And it was painful for me to hear as well.... and untrue...

I think, however, it may reflect Chaz's experience's of his own body when he was female bodied before transition. Perhaps... and this is purely conjecture... but perhaps Chaz had a very low libido or experiences very low libido due to his lack of connection to his female body. I believe the comment was a deep reflection of Chaz and nothing more...

What do you mean untrue?

The sex drives of guys on T does go up exponentially; it is known effect of testosterone. (for anyone)

[citybutch]

There are plenty of women with exponential sex drives.... It may be hormone driven... it may also be between the ears...

What do you mean untrue?

The sex drives of guys on T does go up exponentially; it is known effect of testosterone. (for anyone)

[Soon]

There are plenty of women with exponential sex drives....

I am just saying that (and it was even just posted on the doc.) that ONE of the effects of testosterone is an increased sex drive--it is a physiological response to the T.

[citybutch]

Indeed... I am not arguing with that... and the comment I am addressing is:

""It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is.""

The implication Chaz made was that women do not feel the same level of sex drives as men... and that just is not true..

I am just saying that (and it was even just posted on the doc.) that ONE of the effects of testosterone is an increased sex drive--it is a physiological response to the T.

[Leigh]

Chaz looks great in a suit, I hope to look that good in one someday ;)

[Heart]

""It's a shame women can't feel it," Chaz says, "and know how biological it is.""

The implication Chaz made was that women do not feel the same level of sex drives as men... and that just is not true..

What made me wince in Chaz's comment was the possible subtext (totally unintentional I'm sure) that if women could understand how biological men's sex drive is, they might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex, etc etc etc... it's the kind of thinking that, in the extreme, has been used to justify rape.

Heart

[atomiczombie]

What made me wince in Chaz's comment was the possible subtext (totally unintentional I'm sure) that if women could understand how biological men's sex drive is, they might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex, etc etc etc... it's the kind of thinking that, in the extreme, has been used to justify rape.

Heart

I can totally see how that can be interpreted that way, which is why words need to be chosen very carefully when talking about these kinds of subjects. I think I understand what Chaz was trying to say, at least I think so. When I went on T and started on my full dose back in November, I was just shocked at how high my sex drive went. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was actually overwhelming for me. I imagine that is what Chaz was getting at. However, no amount of hormone-driven sex drive justifies bad behavior, especially rape. But I honestly do not think that Chaz was trying to justify anything, just making note of how much his sex drive changed on the T.

[Mister Bent]

I can totally see how that can be interpreted that way, which is why words need to be chosen very carefully when talking about these kinds of subjects. I think I understand what Chaz was trying to say, at least I think so. When I went on T and started on my full dose back in November, I was just shocked at how high my sex drive went. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was actually overwhelming for me. I imagine that is what Chaz was getting at. However, no amount of hormone-driven sex drive justifies bad behavior, especially rape. But I honestly do not think that Chaz was trying to justify anything, just making note of how much his sex drive changed on the T.



Chaz made a couple of statements that felt a little "over compensatory" to me, perhaps trying to define that line between who he was when he lived as a lesbian and the man he is now. (For example, how much women talk, gossip, etc.) It's not uncommon, but it was decidedly sexist.

As much as these statements made me outwardly cringe, especially the one referenced here, I think any subtext can only be implied by others. It really felt to me more a matter of his own astonishment at how high sex drive is not a myth. I understand where Heart is coming from, and it's a point worth making, but it really feels reaching to assume Chaz meant that women "might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex..."

[Rockinonahigh]

I've seen a range of (US money) $5,000-$9,000.

WOW..lotta $$ to b shure.

[Thinker]

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/14/976062/-Trans-Framing,-or-why-Chaz-Bono-doesnt-speak-for-me

[Heart]

I understand where Heart is coming from, and it's a point worth making, but it really feels reaching to assume Chaz meant that women "might excuse sexually aggressive behavior, be more willing to meet men's need for sex..."



Well, I made the point worth making, so not sure where the "but" comes from, as I did not assume that Chaz was referencing assault or rape. It is possible to understand and support Chaz in his personal journey, (which he is choosing to make public for good reasons), and still examine the implications of his use of sexist language. They are not mutually exclusive of one another.

Heart

[Mister Bent]

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/14/976062/-Trans-Framing,-or-why-Chaz-Bono-doesnt-speak-for-me

Thanks for posting this, Thinker, it's a thoughtful and well stated piece. It also helped me put my finger on some of the issues I couldn't name, but were lingering as bothersome for me, especially on this notion of "becoming" when in fact, one already "is." As well as:

"I think it's unfortunate that we've moved from that powerful narrative of trans maleness as authentic identity to a narrative of transition as medically- and surgically-constructed masculinity."



Well, I made the point worth making, so not sure where the "but" comes from, as I did not assume that Chaz was referencing assault or rape. It is possible to understand and support Chaz in his personal journey, (which he is choosing to make public for good reasons), and still examine the implications of his use of sexist language. They are not mutually exclusive of one another.

Heart

Of course they are not mutually exclusive of one another, and I absolute agree his use of sexist language - in multiple applications - should be examined (most especially by him).

Thank you for clarifying that you did not "assume that Chaz was referencing assault or rape." That was from whence my "but" came, since his intent is unknown. I'm very glad you opened up the discussion on Chaz sexist language, as it was something that stood out to me while watching the documentary, and which astounded me.

[citybutch]

Thank you so much for posting... !

Good read titled Trans Framing, or why Chaz Bono doesn't speak for me

The author also draws some comparisons to what Chaz's doc did for public opinion versus what the movie Boys Don't Cry did. Well written.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/05/14/976062/-Trans-Framing,-or-why-Chaz-Bono-doesnt-speak-for-me

[BullDog]

I didn't watch the documentary, but I just watched a 4 minute clip from him being on Letterman, and to me it reinforced the stuff the author was talking about from the link Thinker provided.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-20062573-10391698.html

Maybe he is going through a bravado phase. When Letterman asked him if his interactions with women were different he said, well I think I frustrate my girlfriend more. I can be an "A." I can be insensitive. I can be a guy.


WTF?

[Heart]

The article Thinker linked to is interesting and I really appreciate the author's framework, especially as it relates to sexism and stereotypes, but the narrative is far broader and deeper than the issue of Chaz's, or Brandon Teena's, or any one person's transition, coming out process, or identity. The narrative really is: Identity in the Context of a Sexist and Misogynistic Culture. It is a shared narrative, one that impacts all of us and that we are all responsible for.

And to be fair to Chazz, I believe I heard him say that he has always felt himself to be male (as opposed to becoming male), and even said that his relationship with his gf was never a "lesbian" relationship. It's difficult to hold Chaz alone accountable for the narrative/framework imposed upon all of us by sexism and misogyny.

Plus... I continue to find the use of the word "cis" (as used in the author's essay) to be problematic and have sexist/misogynistic implications when applied across the board to reference non-trans people. Like stereotypes, it's a simplification that upon closer examination, doesn't hold up well.
But maybe I'm hair-splitting.

[Quintease]

I've noticed that a lot of transmen feel a lot more understanding of men after transition, to the point of being sympathetic. Their libido's go up, they physically feel bigger, they start to realise what an aggressive world men live in, and they have to balance this new realisation with their understanding of the world they lived in before they became male.

What transmen lack, that perhaps Chaz forgot in his excitement, is the sense of entitlement that bio-boys are fed from birth. Women aren't supposed to enjoy sex, women are supposed to say no. Sex is the male arena. Even without the social pressures we expect, a female animal of any sort would take care who she slept with in case she became pregnant to the wrong male.

Hopefully when things have calmed down somewhat, Chaz will look back at some of the things he said in the public sphere (in fact he may have already done so), and acknowledge the many way he could have been misunderstood.

I'm really glad that everyone is talking about Chaz, it makes me happy.

[Quintease]

It is pretty alarming to read "...and I tune my girlfriend out because I am not interested in gossip anymore"

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

[Thinker]

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

I am guilty of finding myself less interested in chit chat; however, that's not exclusive to chit chat from women.

My "becoming" occurred (socially) at a poker table in a truck stop.....almost always all-men-all-the-time. And lemme tell ya.....some of those guys could do a serious amount of gabbing about nothin' much. There were times I had that "nails on a chalkboard" reaction and had to take a little table break.

So, yeah, I find anything that is said along the lines of "women this" and "women that" to be sexist. There aren't a whole lot of qualities, gifts, annoying traits, etc... that belong solely to --insert gender ID here--.

[atomiczombie]

I didn't watch the documentary, but I just watched a 4 minute clip from him being on Letterman, and to me it reinforced the stuff the author was talking about from the link Thinker provided.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31749_162-20062573-10391698.html

Maybe he is going through a bravado phase. When Letterman asked him if his interactions with women were different he said, well I think I frustrate my girlfriend more. I can be an "A." I can be insensitive. I can be a guy.


WTF?

That really bothered me too. I have to say that when I got on my full dose of T, my basic personality and the way I interact with people didn't change much. I am still me, still careful about how my words and deeds affect people, and I have made it a priority to not become self-absorbed into my transition. Whatever my friends and family are going through, I still try to be engaged in their lives and a source of support for them. I have always been sensitive to the feelings and needs of others, and that hasn't changed.

I was surprised and taken aback at how Chaz treated his girlfriend in the "kitchen" scene. And to say that when his girlfriend is upset she has to make everyone around her upset, well maybe Chaz needs to own his own feelings and not place her as responsible for them. That was my reaction when I watched the documentary.

However, since I have had some time to reflect, I have decided that I don't have enough context and exposure to their relationship to really understand what is going on with them. I am hesitant to pass judgment on someone else's relationship when I have so little exposure to it. The documentary gave us a glimpse, and I recognize that my initial feelings and thoughts about it all are based on a very limited amount of information.

As for some of his sexist comments about women and men in general, and his seeming assumption that being an asshole is just a male trait, those are things that irritate me because I know they aren't necessarily true. They aren't true for me! I keep thinking, and I don't want to be lumped into that stereotype. It is an ugly one and it doesn't have to be that way for men. My father is nothing like that. He is a kind and gentle soul who is very other-centered. I get these traits from him. I was raised by a father who isn't a sexist, self-absorbed pig. A lot of the assumptions that those are male traits ignores that fact that these are social constructs.

[BullDog]

I am a woman and I have zero interest in "gabbing," chit chat or gossip. Actually I'm pretty quiet and not a big talker. (may come as a big surprise to some here ;) ) I know of plenty of men who just go on and on about nothing as well as women. In fact for me, one of the trademarks of men's entitlement is them talking on and on. Not all men do it and not all women engage in "chatter." It's sexist to characterize women's talk that way.

[Corkey]

I have no interest in "chit chat", but then I don't talk much at home either, I'm the one listening for the most part. Short n sweet is my motto, folks have less time these days to just keep muttering non stop. It really hit a nerve he was so short with his gf, I wanted to Butch slap him on being a jackass in the kitchen.

[princessbelle]

Thank you Thinker for posting that link. Was a great read!!!!

A couple of things stand out to me in the documentary. One is when he was at the FtM meeting and he said something to the effect of (not a quote)....i don't have a lot to say because i'm new to this and i am learning. I thought that was commendable and basically was saying just because i'm famous don't mean i have any more to add...i'm just learning my way.

Another thing is, as far as i can tell, he did not edit this documentary. I realize he did give his approval but he was just the focus and not the one that put it all together. I agree some of the comments and references should not have made the final cut.

This is not to excuse any negative thoughts or words that were seen. I saw them too. I felt that tinge of icky when he said a few things that i knew would not be accepted in most of the community. If he were on this site i'm sure he would screw up and get called on it like we all are.

But, i still think he at least is out there and i applaud him for that. Even though he said he could not have hid it all and choose to come out under his own control, he didn't have to make the documentary and take us through his surgery and some very personal things that he did.

It certainly wasn't perfect, IMO, but it was at least a raising of awareness, a direction, a thought, a glass dome into one person's life going through a transition that lots and lots of people around the globe at least got a general definition of what FtM even is.

personal note: My 77 year old southern baptist republican mother watched it. Her words were "I had no idea that people felt they lived in the wrong body. That they felt their physical gender was not who they were on the inside". This opened up a discussion with us. It was an open door to try and explain some things about my community. It was wonderful and would not have happened if she hadn't seen something like this from someone that most everyone knows.

I hope, at the very least, it will get people talking, thinking and discussing.

[Linus]

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

[BullDog]

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

Yeah and unfortunately Chaz is reinforcing these ideas in his interviews.

[AtLast]

I haven't watched the documentary yet, but I have seen clips and read numerous interviews.

What I try to keep in mind is that just because Chaz is famous based on celebrity parents, does not mean that he is highly evolved or has done a lot of work with regards to sexism, et al.

It is pretty alarming to read "I don't have as much patience and I tune my girlfriend out because I am not interested in gossip anymore" (that is a paraphrase from an article I read) among other things -- And I didn't know too much about him before, but frankly, that made me think less of him, but also hopeful as he comes into more contact with men and their partners who have made this journey, he will become more sensitive and aware that being a man isn't just assuming, emulating or assimilating stereotypical "masculine" traits and that being a loving, caring, evolved human being should be the ultimate goal, regardless of gender or sex. Added bonus if your outside matches your inside and you feel more comfortable with yourself. :)

I am glad this is happening publicly though, because it is creating a lot of dialogue that wouldn't have otherwise happened. I try to put myself in the shoes of his mother, if my son came out to me as a woman, as much as I love and support him, it would also be a huge change for me, and I suspect I would have a grieving process of some kind before being able to move forward. I'd like to say I wouldn't miss a beat, but I know in my heart that's not true.



You are being very candid, June and I admire you for this- as much as my mother loved me and supported my being lesbian, she had a few "beats" to deal with and I think that is just plain human. The sexism displayed by Chaz is nothing new, unfortunately. No, it is the acceptance and rolling it into T effects that is nothing new. And I think this hurts Transmen and is an affront to them.

I get really tired of the T-blaming with this and feel that it is quite a negative view of transmen. Adolescent self-absorption does not justify sexist attitudes and behaviors- not for anyone. I certainly had many discussions with my son about this growing up. In fact, he came to me during adolescence and was the child of two alcoholics and a neglectful mother that due to her own abuse background, surrounded herself with abusive misogynists that my son viewed for many years as male role models. There was a lot to undo- it wasn't teen angst and puberty propagating sexism for him!

Also, grieving the loss of gender of a child, parent, sibling, friend, partner is an area of our whole response to transitioning that I think gets swept aside as the trans person's experiences become the main event. This bothers me a lot because we humans are "not islands." I know that even as trans supportive as I am, if my son transitioned, it would be difficult for me in some ways and I would grieve the loss of him as a male. Not very PC of me, I know, but truthful. Frankly, I would be concerned and scared about any possible health risks that could arise for him as well as just the usual fear of having someone you love undergo surgeries under anesthesia. I would deal with these things on my own and seek help for myself (not put my fears on him), but I know I would have these feelings. I also know that I would support him in every way possible.

Throughout the years with the (unfortunately) public trials of Chaz and his celebrity parents, I have felt there was a lot of self-absorption and immaturity. But, there are many Hollywood children that appear to be indulged, and end up doing some very self -destructive things (talking about drugs, alcohol, not transitioning). All ending up in the public eye- which in and of itself seems to add to the mess. For years, Chaz's weight struggles have been blasted all over the tube (he even was on the Biggest Loser), for example. Frankly, it seems like when he was female (to the outside world), these weight comments were common and worse- hummm… what does this say about weight issues and women as opposed to men? Now, his transitioning.

Part of me wonders just how much he really wanted such a public display of his life... yet, again. Or, did he just feel that no matter what he felt and wanted, there was no escape? So, he might as well let the cameras roll. There is just something in his defensive posturing (that was also part of Chastity that I remember) that always gives me pause. Something in his eyes that just felt/feels both angry and sad- even now that he has been able to transition. Maybe this will dissipate as he is able to live his life as who he always has been. I hope so.

I am happy that the trans community has found this documentary to be positive. But, I hope that Chaz finally just gets to have his own life. But, I don't see that happening and I think this is something Hollywood celebrity) kids pay a very high price for.- having a life.

I don’t know if other folks have done any searches online and run across some of the blogs, etc. by the general public about this documentary and Chaz- I have and it is upsetting. Very upsetting- most of them are in response not only to the documentary, but the appearances on shows like Piers Morgan and Joy Behar. The same old gender-ignorance in comments along with a lot of horrible comments about his obesity. Some really ugly things being said. Seeing this hurts and makes me wonder if there is any way to educate the general public about this at all. But, I have no idea how representative these are really. I would really like to see links that are to positive reactions from outside the LGBTIQ community. Please, post some if you have seen them. I can’t take any more of the kind I keep seeing. There is such a long way yet to go.

[theoddz]

Transitioning really is a steady, ongoing process. Sometimes, it's just damned hard.

Most of us who do it drag our life's baggage, for better or worse, into this and it's up to each individual to do the work and evolve into the man/woman we choose to be. There are also people out there who come into this with some pretty damaged souls. Some of us don't have very good mentors, if we have any at all, and others of us, like myself, have outstanding ones (my Pop, who, after 81 years of life, has found himself mentoring a son). Coming to terms with my own baggage and my own "damage" from living 45 years in a shell that was never mine has given me a lot to work through....and I'm hardly done yet. I have worked through a lot of anger, towards society and my family and I still am working through it, but I have never used Testosterone as an excuse for any bad behavior I've been guilty of. Sometimes, I guess, I'm just an asshole and perhaps just guilty of not using much self control, but that has to do with my being a human being with faults and flaws, and I totally own that. Testosterone has never been the cause of it.

Transition lasts a lifetime for so many of us. You can beat us up for attitudes that result from our confusion, or because we just haven't worked through them, or even because we're just basically misguided or you can keep talking to us and help us through our processing and "healing" to be better, more enlightened men and women. Some transfolks are lucky to have a loving and supportive community, either in real time or here online. There are also tons of people who are transitioning with no community whatsoever and are having to navigate through transition the best they know how by themselves. I have to say that I'm a pretty lucky guy to have you all here. From what was shown on the documentary, Chaz appears to have a pretty good support system in place for him. I think this will fare him very well.

I think what is really going to be interesting, and probably pretty joyful, is seeing what Chaz does and perhaps another interview or film in the upcoming years. I have a feeling that things are going to come around just fine for him and that he's going to grow/evolve to be a pretty good fellow and role model (spokesman). I certainly wish that for him and look forward to seeing him become even happier with his life in the years to come.

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Leigh]

I can totally see how that can be interpreted that way, which is why words need to be chosen very carefully when talking about these kinds of subjects. I think I understand what Chaz was trying to say, at least I think so. When I went on T and started on my full dose back in November, I was just shocked at how high my sex drive went. I have never experienced anything like that in my life. It was actually overwhelming for me. I imagine that is what Chaz was getting at. However, no amount of hormone-driven sex drive justifies bad behavior, especially rape. But I honestly do not think that Chaz was trying to justify anything, just making note of how much his sex drive changed on the T.

When I first started My T, and I'm not even on a full dose yet, I noticed that My sex drive went through the roof ~ its also not something I was used to so it threw Me off and at first I kinda pushed the increased sexual thoughts aside because I still was not used to wanting it that much (or even at all). I think now that I've gotten more used to the increase I'm celebrating more the fact that I even have a sex drive. I agree that just because you have a heightened sex drive does *NOT* mean you can sexually abuse/assault/rape anyone .......... even just to use that as an excuse is appaling and there is no reason for it. I know thats not what Chaz was saying, and I get where he was coming from but you do have to choose your words carefully no matter what gender you are

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

I kinda shook My head here too, cuz I thought why would you try and justify that stuff on the hormones when thats not it at all

[Rockinonahigh]

On the morning news It said Chaz will be on Dr.Drew either tonight or tomorrow..Should be intresting to see what Dr.Drew comes up with.
One thing I noticesd on the Piers Morgan show was that there is some unease going on between Chaz and Jen,corse haveing been on so many
shows may be getting to be a bit much.After watching them as well as seeing the body language I wonder if they will be together in a year...I get she is a bit snippy about how she deals with all of this and chaz reminds me of a hormone driven teenager(from The T shots) I gess its normal or maybe a change on dosage will still do the job and chill him a bit.

[Melissa]

I enjoyed the documentary. I actually thought as a partner that many of the issues we deal with were shown and explored through Jen. I found their relationship very hard to watch. Their was a lot of tension and grief that I could feel. When she said she has to get know him over and over as things change and progress I could really relate to that. You do never know what is in store! A physical change, a different way of relating. Some could be just normal changes couples go through but there is usually a question or thought 'is this transition related'.

What I really would have liked to have seen is more about how they arrived at the idea that they are now a straight couple. I don't think all couples get to that place. I am not there yet. My concern is that the general public will look at Chaz and think that this is how it is for every transman.

I do though very much appreciate his coming forward and sharing his story. Oprah is big time mainstream. I am hoping this will contribute towards transpeople being recognized and accepted for who they are.


I liked the point Jenn made that everyone is in transition when a friend, loved one, etc goes through a transition. I thought about my own "transition" on many levels as Rufus decided to and then went through his own transition. I am interested in knowing what types of transitions partners of trans men and women go through.

Melissa

[Melissa]

I'm trying to keep an open mind about Jen, but she is bugging me a bit. :|

(i.e. squealing while he is in hospital gown, "I've never seen you in a dress...you're in a mumu!" He had to tell her to be quiet.



I do think that many of Jenn's responses were inappropriate and there were a lot of cringe moments for me. On the other hand, she states she was drinking at this time so I think a lot of these comments and behaviors might be related to her drinking. I think we don't really have a good sense of who Jenn is because a lot of what she said and did was while under the influence. My first reaction was that I didn't like her. But by the end of the doc and the interview with Rosie I really did come to like her (like is such a vague word, but I don't know how to describe it). She said some things that resonated with me and made me think. She didn't come across as phony but as very real. But again this could be a product of good filmmakers and editors plus the drinking. But all in all I got a lot out of this documentary and I'm glad Jenn was included. This was a doc about Chaz's transition, but also his relationship, Jenn's responses, his mother's response and so on.

Melissa

[Soon]

I do think that many of Jenn's responses were inappropriate and there were a lot of cringe moments for me. On the other hand, she states she was drinking at this time so I think a lot of these comments and behaviors might be related to her drinking. I think we don't really have a good sense of who Jenn is because a lot of what she said and did was while under the influence. My first reaction was that I didn't like her. But by the end of the doc and the interview with Rosie I really did come to like her (like is such a vague word, but I don't know how to describe it). She said some things that resonated with me and made me think. She didn't come across as phony but as very real. But again this could be a product of good filmmakers and editors plus the drinking. But all in all I got a lot out of this documentary and I'm glad Jenn was included. This was a doc about Chaz's transition, but also his relationship, Jenn's responses, his mother's response and so on.

Melissa

Good points, Melissa--ones that I hadn't thought about (re: the drinking) and, toward the end, she didn't irritate me as much. That post was first impressions about a half hour or forty five minutes into the doc.

I am VERY glad she was included. Very.

I have this feeling her and Chaz are in for rough times. I wish them the best.

[Soon]

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

I totally agree. I really hate that he *went there* about chalking up temper tantrums to the T.

[The Oopster]

That really bothered me too. I have to say that when I got on my full dose of T, my basic personality and the way I interact with people didn't change much. I am still me, still careful about how my words and deeds affect people, and I have made it a priority to not become self-absorbed into my transition.[/COLOR] Whatever my friends and family are going through, I still try to be engaged in their lives and a source of support for them. I have always been sensitive to the feelings and needs of others, and that hasn't changed.

I think one of the things that the doc does poorly is maintain the idea that T is the cause of all the anger, frustration, "personality changes", etc. Personality stays the same but we tend to attribute it to T when in fact it was always there. We just ignored it or downplayed it.

I believe our sense of character stays the same but testorone is a drug and hormone and it does have side effects. But how these manifest in each individual is different and irregardless of how they manifest it doesn't excuse a persons behavior.

I know if I take my shot and I haven't eaten or if I take it too late in the day I will have a similiar effect to drinking several pots of expresso. The couple times i had this reaction I laid low until it passed, took note and I don't take my shot on an empty stomach nor at night. I knew i was on the edge and knew to stay clear of people.

Otherwise it has had the opposite effect on me. I am way calmer and mellower then I ever was. I am far less emotional. This doesn't mean I still don't have them they just aren't as easily seen. I use to bawl when watching extreme makeover home edtion, I now may have a tear or two well up. I am still touched but how it manifests in me is different.

I use to have extreme hormonal mood swing and actually what I called the pms flue and all that is gone. When things happen that would have put me in a tizzy i'm not really anymore. Do I believe some it is due to personal growth? yes but some of it is due to the change in my hormones.

As for some of his sexist comments about women and men in general, and his seeming assumption that being an asshole is just a male trait, those are things that irritate me because I know they aren't necessarily true. They aren't true for me! I keep thinking, and I don't want to be lumped into that stereotype. It is an ugly one and it doesn't have to be that way for men. My father is nothing like that. He is a kind and gentle soul who is very other-centered. I get these traits from him. I was raised by a father who isn't a sexist, self-absorbed pig. A lot of the assumptions that those are male traits ignores that fact that these are social constructs.

I didn't like the general stereotypes also. What is really hard is this is an account of Chaz's transition and not a documentary on transition in general. So I do see where this is his experience. What is hard is the fact that it does reinforce common misconceptions. Also that most people won't say "oh this is just his experience" They will lump it into a one size fits all.


[COLOR="Red"]Another thing is, as far as i can tell, he did not edit this documentary. I realize he did give his approval but he was just the focus and not the one that put it all together. I agree some of the comments and references should not have made the final cut.

I hope, at the very least, it will get people talking, thinking and discussing.

I guess I don't know what the complete role of a producer is but I would think that the producer would get a say in what goes in and what doesn't go in. On his facebook "Becoming Chaz" page he is listed as the producer. You are correct in that he isn't listed as an editor but wouldn't a producer still have a fair amount of say?

[apretty]

That is something I have heard coming out of the mouths of a few transguys, as well as read on online forums. My bf is also less interested in chitchat and gossip now that he's transitioned, which makes me wonder if there really is something going on. Maybe the hormones do make boys less verbal, which in turn would make them less interested in non-essential talk. I'm guessing too that Chaz, being in his adolescent stage at the time the documentary was made, pretty much behaved like most adolescents do - Self-absorbed, blustery and impatient.

My BUTCH partner has never been interested in chit-chat--So you're saying there was a time, pre-transition when your BF liked the sewing circle? *just curious.

[apretty]

Why doesn't Chaz work--Am I the only a-hole who doesn't get his finances and thinks that "finances" are a super-relevent part of the picture?

He had money to be an addict for 10 years and, according to the documentary he laid on the couch for a year(s) playing video games...

What does he do besides the trans-stuff?

*Again, curious.

[Daywalker]

I'd be interested in viewing a Study that tracks brain changes in folks
who take T Shots ~ before and after; which areas seem more stimulated,
if there are areas more active after the T, broken down by factors that
include geographical stats, emotional predispositions, etc.

:coffee:

:daywalker:

[Linus]

I'm having the worst time doing quotes with my iPad. Anyways, I do prefer Lisa Ling's piece on trans individuals for "Our America". I think that was far more informative on a non-celebrity basis as to what it's like.

[apretty]

And OH MY God--That house he's living in. If he couldn't afford his surgery why not sell that house? Downsize like a "regular" person would choose to do.

I wouldn't care so much if this was supposed fiction but it's being billed as a documentary.

And why is his sponsor paying for his surgery? A sponsor that pays for stuff is *so* inappropriate.

Also, it's bizarre to me that Chaz has a sports-bra tan line. I have never been with any butch/transperson or otherwise that would go out in a sports bra--In the sun! I am sure that I'm not saying this right but it seems to me that there are so many incongruences with his presenting "maleness" and his ease and comfortability with his female-parts. --It's like I blinked and missed that part of the documentary.

Also, has the depression been looked at? Is the chest surgery supposed to fix the depression (lying on the couch for a couple of years seems like depression to me)? And how can you live with an addict if your sobriety is at all important to you?

And why don't these people have jobs!

...They do have cute dogs, however. (But who brings a DOG to a doctor's appointment!)

[theoddz]

Why doesn't Chaz work--Am I the only a-hole who doesn't get his finances and thinks that "finances" are a super-relevent part of the picture?

He had money to be an addict for 10 years and, according to the documentary he laid on the couch for a year(s) playing video games...

What does he do besides the trans-stuff?

*Again, curious.

I imagine that he got a nice advance on a book deal he made when he publically announced his decision to transition. My guess is that that is probably how he intended to repay his friends for the money they loaned him for his top surgery.

I don't know what he actually does for a living, either, and like you, I've been curious about these same questions that you ask. I, normally, don't make issue about the financial affairs of others, but money is a HUGE issue and sometimes OBSTACLE to others with transitioning. If Chaz is going to hold himself up to the public eye with his transitioning process, then yes, I do think that the financial aspects of transition and his own financial circumstance, insomuch as what he does for a living (and not the details of just how much he makes at doing whatever it is he does) should be addressed. In other words, yes I think it's altogether fair to ask just what he does for a living/support himself.

To me, this is totally proper and a relevent question. Thanks for bringing it up again, Dressy. :)

Theo :bouquet:.....on the Blackberry, so please excuse any typos!!!

[DapperButch]

My partner and I saw Chaz today at a trans conference we attended. It is a conference in Philly that I attend every year for both professional and personal reasons.

Chaz mentioned how crazy insane it is the privlege that he started to feel after being read as male. He said he was invisible as a masculine female and that it is amazing how that changed after he started being read as male.

He was also taken to task by an audience member for his comments others could read as sexist in the documentary.

Transfolks also asked that he make sure to clarify with the media as often as possible that this is HIS experience.

All the things I have heard people say here, I heard said there to him.

I really liked him and found him to be very, VERY genuine. I ended up caving and bought his book and got him to sign it.

tf and I tried to video record it on her phone but the phone kept cutting out over and over again b/c it is a new phone and we couldn't figure it out. Subsequently, we have an hour of footage of short clips (we finally got it down after a while though).

She needs to get something from work next week to download it to her computer before she can upload it to youtube. I will post the many clips next week.

P.S. Was anyone else there?

[DapperButch]

I seriously considered asking him (when I was getting him to sign my book), to let me record him saying HI to the Planet, but then I thought he may get all worried we would try to use it as an advertisement.

I should have asked though...Medusa, et. al would have loved it, I am sure. Fun thing to have on the front page!

[T D]

I'd be interested in viewing a Study that tracks brain changes in folks
who take T Shots ~ before and after; which areas seem more stimulated,
if there are areas more active after the T, broken down by factors that
include geographical stats, emotional predispositions, etc.

:coffee:

:daywalker:

That would be interesting to see. I know that my own thinking process has changed, as well as how I view and interpret things. It's been a fairly interesting process to say the least.

[T D]

Just an observation, but Jen also got taken on this ride of Chaz's. He decided to transition and there she was on the roller coaster with him. Depending on her personality (which I honestly have no clue about from the documentary) this whole experience could have been a very overwhelming thing for her.

I also think it's difficult to make a documentary and choose every single word in such a way that people won't question things that are said and/or what they actually mean. I would not want to be in Chaz's shoes for anything!!

I also believe that Chaz's comments about his sex drive and the T was directed at Jen, and as I recall I think he said he wished she could feel what it's like (but maybe he said women in general). My interpretation of this comment is that it's a feeling like nothing he's ever experienced before and wishes that women (Jen) could experience it as well since he absolutely did not while he was a woman (and neither did I). Just my take on it. It really is something altogether new and different, and yes, exciting as well. Nothing wrong with that.

That's all... stepping away now.

[Rockinonahigh]

I have read nearly all the post hear,but the thing that has me wondering is,why Chaz was siting at a playstation for a year playing vidio games?I understand he was probly dealing with depresion at this point...but a whole year?I dont mean any disrespect buy any stretch of the imaganation about being in depression cause I have delt with it in my life so know its effects on anyone.Shurely with his opertunities to gert help or find something constructive to do to get past this.Being Cher's son there had to be many ways to get help or just " man up" as my son would call it.Dont get me wrong hear cause im not trying to say he didnt try it just loks like all he did was have a pity party for a while,I hear it was booze then the vidio games I herd something about maybe drugs at some point.Many of us who dont nearly have the resorces as Chaz manage to be part of life and deal with how we feel about how we build our lives as best we can.
I realise how hard it is to deal with disfunctional familes,I guarente you my family almost invented the word or shurely put it in the capitial letter bracket.
Im wrighting this thinking about all ive read hear and herd on tv shows lately.What im thinking is about so many of us who manage life with way less chanches to get where we are today but have made it anyway.Im shure I prolly pised off someone hear,again my applogies.Geting off my sope box.

[Greyson]

I have read nearly all the post hear,but the thing that has me wondering is,why Chaz was siting at a playstation for a year playing vidio games?I understand he was probly dealing with depresion at this point...but a whole year?I dont mean any disrespect buy any stretch of the imaganation about being in depression cause I have delt with it in my life so know its effects on anyone.Shurely with his opertunities to gert help or find something constructive to do to get past this.Being Cher's son there had to be many ways to get help or just " man up" as my son would call it.Dont get me wrong hear cause im not trying to say he didnt try it just loks like all he did was have a pity party for a while,I hear it was booze then the vidio games I herd something about maybe drugs at some point.Many of us who dont nearly have the resorces as Chaz manage to be part of life and deal with how we feel about how we build our lives as best we can.
I realise how hard it is to deal with disfunctional familes,I guarente you my family almost invented the word or shurely put it in the capitial letter bracket.
Im wrighting this thinking about all ive read hear and herd on tv shows lately.What im thinking is about so many of us who manage life with way less chanches to get where we are today but have made it anyway.Im shure I prolly pised off someone hear,again my applogies.Geting off my sope box.


Rockin, your post did not upset me. However, I can see how someone might spend a year in front of some sort of monitor zoning out. I also understand about some of us not having the option to forgetaboutit and must work to earn an income to survive.

Maybe if I was born into Chaz's situation of having more options, I may have been able to veg out, fall into my addictive patterns for extended periods of time. Money can buy a person things. I don't think it is a given because we may have money that we will know/have happiness.

[DapperButch]

I think it was actually two years the documentary said (I believe it was Jennifer who said this).

He would have been sober at this point, but sometimes the depth of depression can be so low that a person becomes immobilized. If the person has the monetary resources to "stay in that state", so to speak, it is even slower for them to move out of it b/c they do not have an external force pushing for the change.

[Rockinonahigh]

Greyson im glad we arent at odds with my post,I understand veging out ..I have my own devils with it but in a diffrent way,for years I denied that my weight gain was cause of meds only..truth is im a foodaholic it has taken me years to admitt it and to finaly deal with it,and I do 95% of the time now..but I do have my moments.When I have those moments I acknoledge them and go do something totaly away from food.
I just wish ppl who are haveing a problem and veging out could find better ways to adjust to and with life...so much time waisted, so much time that u cant get back.

[T D]

2 years worth of being depressed and "zoned out"...... totally been there, lived through every single second of it, and not for a moment of most of it did I think I would actually survive it. Depression is a devastating, crippling illness. People respond to it in different ways, just as they do to the available medications and treatments for it. Because someone is "zoned out" doesn't mean they're not trying to find their way out of it. I spent more than 2 years working my way through it and I honestly did not think I would ever make it. I spent most of that time with a hand held poker game in my hand, I couldn't go anywhere without it. I totally get the video game thing with the tv. BTW I was in therapy 3 times a week for most of that time. It can be a deeply dark place.

I'm just glad that Chaz is in a much better place now!

[Rockinonahigh]

Tonight on the own chanel they are showing the doc on chaz again,this is one I havent seen yet,gonna tape it so I can rewatch it later.Its on at 7:00 central..check your time zone if u havent seen it.

[EnderD_503]

I'm having the worst time doing quotes with my iPad. Anyways, I do prefer Lisa Ling's piece on trans individuals for "Our America". I think that was far more informative on a non-celebrity basis as to what it's like.

I agree. I preferred "Our America" as well. I wrote a whole fucking blog rant on "Becoming Chaz." Some aspects were good, but others really irritated the hell out of me and I don't feel was representative of transguys and their transitions as a whole. And the sad part is that a lot of people who watched it are going to think he's completely representative. He counts himself a trans activist, and yet there were a lot of statements made in his doc that he should have known people would have taken as "all encompassing" as far as trans attitudes. I get it was about his personal transition and experiences and feelings, but at the same time he should have known better; that he was pretty much the first transguy to make it into mainstream television, that most people watching would have ever seen, and that would most would take his image and word as gospel.

It's good to have the visibility, but some of it isn't good visibility, imo. He acts like being an asshole and being misogynist is somehow a part of being on T and being a transguy in general...then goes and calls himself a trans activist. I dunno. I call bullshit and was kind of disappointed.

[EnderD_503]

Also, it's bizarre to me that Chaz has a sports-bra tan line. I have never been with any butch/transperson or otherwise that would go out in a sports bra--In the sun! I am sure that I'm not saying this right but it seems to me that there are so many incongruences with his presenting "maleness" and his ease and comfortability with his female-parts. --It's like I blinked and missed that part of the documentary.


Just wanted to talk about this part of your post. I originally raised an eyebrow myself when it came to the sports bra tan lines, but then checked myself. I do know some transfolks who are not as dysphoric as others or some who are barely dysphoric at all. Some transguys might have a male identity and want to have top surgery, but don't feel the same kind of nausea around seeing or exposing their chest pre-op that others feel. We have to be careful not to put all transfolks into the same bucket, so to speak. Extreme dysphoria doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with being trans. Also, I don't think transfolks should be judged on how they bind or if they bind at all, or what they happen to wear/expose etc. It's a bit like transwomen who never have bottom surgery, but who may not entirely exclude their natal sex organs during sex (though it's evidently a different experience on estrogen than without). Or transguys who are ok with using the sex organs they were born with during sex, while others like myself can't stomach the thought of doing so themselves. Everyone's different and I don't think it's possible to judge one's "transness" based on that.

I think what confused me mainly was that Chaz said that since puberty he had suffered a lot of dysphoria and still did up until his op, and that didn't seem to go with the whole tan line thing. But at the end of the day that's really his business and not mine, and all I have are my own feelings as a point of reference and not his.

Anyways, that's my two cents on the sports bra tan line issue.

[J. Mason]

I rewatched Becoming Chaz on tv this evening.

Made me think of the tough road ahead of me and how much support is needed in dealing with transition.

[DapperButch]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/chaz-bono-jennifer-elia-breakup-split-engagement-off_n_1158732.html?ref=celebrity&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D121522

[Rockinonahigh]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/19/chaz-bono-jennifer-elia-breakup-split-engagement-off_n_1158732.html?ref=celebrity&icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D121522


This really dosent surprise me,I had hoped it wouldnt happen.

[Cowboi]

I watched Being Chaz.... He ask her to sign a prenup stating that she would not drink anymore. She told him that she just couldn't sign it.
Maybe some time apart will help.

[Soft*Silver]

why didnt he want her to drink anymore? Is she in recovery? Or is he asking for his own reasons?

[Cowboi]

why didnt he want her to drink anymore? Is she in recovery? Or is he asking for his own reasons?

She is a acoholic...but it seemed like , maybe when she gets really stressed, she falls off the wagon.

[iridium]

I'm looking forward to watching this -

I am saddened at Cher's attitude - As Chaz's Mother one would think she would embrace changes that would make her son feel complete.

My initial reaction was similar but then I think of my own plans to transition (male to female) and how it sadens me that from my mothers perspective, her loving son of all those years will have disappeared as my voice and face is feminized. I respect these feelings my mom has. I understand that there are costs to transition but in the end it is more important that I express and present myself as I have always wanted to. She knows I will still be the same devoted loving person she has always known. That is what matters most.