OSAMA BINLADEN IS DEAD

[DapperButch]

Just an FYI for peeps who don't have their TVs on.

Evidently, Obama is to make an announcement on "National Security" within the next couple of minutes. Your main local stations should interrupt programming.

As it is unusual for something last minute like this to happen with the White House not giving any further information, I thought folks might want to know.

[DapperButch]

Ok, my news is saying that Osama Bin Laden is dead and the U.S. has his body.

[Miss Scarlett]

Ok, my news is saying that Osama Bin Laden is dead and the U.S. has his body.

CNN is reporting the anouncement will be at 10:45 and is not concerning Libya...

[Kenna]

And the world stands still as we wait to hear....

[Queerasfck]

Bin Laden's body has been found! Jimmy Hoffa and my black socks still missing.......

[Mitmo01]

Wow maybe we can get out of afghanistan now...

[Ms. Tabitha]

http://www.ktnv.com/story/14551173/sources-osama-bin-ladens-body-recovered


Washington, D.C. - ABC News sources are reporting that President Obama is about to announce that the body of Osama bin Laden has been recovered.
There are no details at this point as to how or where his body was taken.
bin Laden was the prime suspect in the 9/11 attacks on the World Trade Center in 2001.

[Luv]

Osama bin Laden is dead, CNN John King's reported Sunday night, citing sources. President Barack Obama is to address the nation momentarily regarding bin Laden's death

[Jesse]

There is an alert banner on the bottom of the screen on C-Span saying he is dead.

[Ms. Tabitha]

We must have posted this at the same time :|

[Luv]

GREAT MINDS THINK ALIKE LOL !
Osama bin Laden is dead, CNN John King's reported Sunday night, citing sources. President Barack Obama is to address the nation momentarily regarding bin Laden's death

[Strappie]

God Bless America!!!

[Guy]

so they are both dead?

[Luv]

We must have posted this at the same time :|
yea we did,my brother told me,,Im like,,castros next

[Strappie]

God Bless America!!!

[Luv]

God Bless America!!!

AMEN TO THAT !

[Strappie]

so they are both dead?

Both???? ...... ......

[Luv]

LOL,,PROBABLY REFERRING TO BOTH THREADS LOL

My brother said he has been dead a week and had to do dna..Obama will be on tv in 10-15 minutes to give more details

[Ms. Tabitha]

God Bless America!!!

Amen!!!
Now bring my son and the rest of the troops HOME :hangloose:

:wwii-veterans:

[Guy]

Both???? ...... ......

Sorry, it was a lame joke because of the two post

[Jesse]

Lol! Three threads going on this one thing!

[Luv]

Sorry, it was a lame joke because of the two post

lol,,I got the joke !

[Ms. Tabitha]

LOL,,PROBABLY REFERRING TO BOTH THREADS LOL

My brother said he has been dead a week and had to do dna..Obama will be on tv in 10-15 minutes to give more details

Hey Luv,
I just PM'd Medusa and asked her to delete my thread.. no sense in having several of them going at the same time. :blink:

Hugs

[DomnNC]

I wouldn't count on it ensuring a quick exit from Afghanistan. We're fighting the Taliban there more than Osama, he was in Pakistan, they've known that a while now but because of the mountainous area there they were having difficulty finding him. They aren't going to drop their weapons and slink off now. I wouldn't hesitate to say we'll see more attacks for the revenge factor of it.


But, pardon me, WOOOOHOOOO!!!!

[Luv]

I think both our threads have been deleted and this one changed names

[Luv]

FYI - I merged these threads. Tabitha beat Luv by 1 minute! Good job getting this to us, both of you! I am glued to MSNBC waiting for Obama to announce.

Oh I missed this lol ! Me and tabitha also have the same bday lol !

[Jesse]

Hearing now he has been dead for a week but they were waiting on DNA to make certain it was him.

[Goo]

Finally!

Now we can bring our troops home

I've got the news channel on watching this...Very interesting stuff. He was killed in a mansion outside of Islamabad

[JakeTulane]

I think the thing that alot of people are going to start pondering.. is there going to be some type of retaliation for this happening by his supporters. I think sadly it is far from over. We may have him.. but his followers are so radical.. I have a hard time believing they will take this standing still.

However, like Dom said.. Yessssssss.. that they atleast finally got him.

[Bootboi]

While this is good news. I think this is the least of our problems and please dont tell me this was an effective mission. Also no point in the president coming on the TV. Everyone has announced Bin Laden death but the president. Going to seem pretty silly now.

[Ms. Tabitha]

Wow maybe we can get out of afghanistan now...

Oh I wish. I would LOVE to see all the men and women serving to get back home, especially my son.
Now that he is dead they are going to have to stay alert for the rest of the nut jobs out there trying to seek revenge. :|

[Ms. Tabitha]

Oh I missed this lol ! Me and tabitha also have the same bday lol !

WE are good like that

:gimmehug:

[Jesse]

I do not see them ending things anytime soon, simply because BinLaden is dead. In fact I would be shocked were they to do so.

[Luv]

WE are good like that

:gimmehug:


LOL,,yep ! :)

[Nat]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/live

[Diva]

Yes.....I'll be able to say I know where I was when I got word that bin Laden was dead: I was watching Celebrity Apprentice.....and I don't know who got fired.

LOL! Ya think Pres. Obama had something to do with THAT?

But seriously......if we think for one minute that this is "over", think again. It's like stepping on an ant bed......it's quite for a few seconds, but You'd better move because those ants are gonna come out lookin' for whoever stomped on their queen.....

Just sayin'....

[Ms. Tabitha]

But seriously......if we think for one minute that this is "over", think again. It's like stepping on an ant bed......it's quite for a few seconds, but You'd better move because those ants are gonna come out lookin' for whoever stomped on their queen.....

Just sayin'....

Oh I have no doubt there will be other nut jobs out there wanting to try to get revenge. Guess we will see what happens in the next few days.

[Nat]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/live

Live streaming is up now

[TexasCowboi]

It's about time....



YouTube - When the World Stopped Turning: A 9/11 tribute

[BullDog]

OoC86l3SQL4

[DamonK]

Please forgive me for this...

While I'm not saying I believe otherwise.. but because of the original war to go find Bin Laden, I'm cynical.

How do we know it's not a ploy, like beginning the original war "we can find him quickly..." that drug on forever.

Maybe I'm overly cynical.

[Mitmo01]

This is a little victory for all of the people that had loved ones die on 9/11 and symbolically cutting the head off the snake so to speak....the President gave an awesome speech i think and a well deserved thank you to all of our military...
what a way to die...in a nice big mansion using women as human shields... unlike all the innocent victims of 9/11

[MsDemeanor]

Also no point in the president coming on the TV. Everyone has announced Bin Laden death but the president. Going to seem pretty silly now.

It's not silly at all. This is what Presidents do, this is what citizens expect of their President. It doesn't matter if people already know, it's his duty to stand before this country and deliver the news.

Please forgive me for this...

While I'm not saying I believe otherwise.. but because of the original war to go find Bin Laden, I'm cynical.

How do we know it's not a ploy, like beginning the original war "we can find him quickly..." that drug on forever.

Maybe I'm overly cynical.

Maybe you'll feel better about it after Donald Trump examines the body *giggle*

```````````````````````````````

The collective GOP brain must be exploding right now. Not only will this news knock them off the front page for a bit, it's going to make this a bad time to criticize Obama. Plus there's that whole favorables are going to soar thing - his poll numbers are probably already up. The final kicker is going to be this September, when the country observes the 10th anniversary knowing that Obama was responsible for finding and killing OBL.

[Rockinonahigh]

Im glad Binladin is dead,now I wanna see the body......

[Tcountry]

Just as long as it took the USA to make this day happen....they have had to plan what to do after it does...

Just because you kill the leader...doesn't make the movement stop...in fact it made the target over the US even bigger.

If someone assassinated the President...the US troops would not stop their efforts. This is a small victory in a huge battle.

[Mtn]

Was anyone else disturbed by the fact that all the celebrants of this EVENT appeared to be under 30 and were acting like they were at a kegger, and they JUST happened to have BIG American flags in their closet saved just for THIS day? Sorry but I was embarrased, as an American by the display, and I feel like it was SETUP, prior to the announcement. I heart Obama, but his ratings have been in the tank, and I believe this has much to do with the presidential race of 2012. Timely news after all of the Trump speak, the tornadoes, and the Royal Wedding....pretty good news bites on a slow news day....If the dude is dead, good, he was not a nice fellow, but killing the head does not kill the body. Or maybe I'm just cranky,lol.

[AtLast]

At first I was stunned, even a bit numb- then personal memories about 9/11 and loss struck.. phone calls to friends and a cousin in new York. Then, thoughts of how horrible this decade has been for our country. There is a generation of our military that have been going through hell and back again, and again!

I even felt strange feeling joy over his being killed. I wondered how this could help the families of 9/11 victims- and then thought about the USS Cole, the first WTC bombing, the London subway bombings, several other slaughters by Bin Laden’s supporters all over the world including thousands of Muslims as well as attacks within the last couple of weeks. Then, I decided I didn't feel badly about our going in and just killing him.

And I too, love it that it was Obama standing up there giving us this news. Eat that, GOP!! But, I also would like to see some unification in the US. I'm tired of the banter and no real solutions to the really big problems we have. Sick of being a cynic. I want some healing. And I want our troops to come home- but this isn't going make this happen any sooner. But it might give our troops a lift!

I'm looking foreword to reports on all of the details of how this all unfolded. GeeZus... Obama was just cracking jokes at the Correspondent’s dinner yesterday and he had given the order to go with this plan the day before!! Yup, life turns on a dime.

Of course the president should make these kinds of announcements in an official manner! That is part of his duty to us. This is a big and important national announcement concerning a long and painful time for us. But Bin Laden’s ugly hand has been behind the killing of many, many innocent people all over the world.

[Gayla]

Was anyone else disturbed by the fact that all the celebrants of this EVENT appeared to be under 30 and were acting like they were at a kegger, and they JUST happened to have BIG American flags in their closet saved just for THIS day? Sorry but I was embarrased, as an American by the display, and I feel like it was SETUP, prior to the announcement. I heart Obama, but his ratings have been in the tank, and I believe this has much to do with the presidential race of 2012. Timely news after all of the Trump speak, the tornadoes, and the Royal Wedding....pretty good news bites on a slow news day....If the dude is dead, good, he was not a nice fellow, but killing the head does not kill the body. Or maybe I'm just cranky,lol.

I just read something on Huff Post about everyone with flags. Apparently, as soon as people started gathering, the folks from Servicemember's United dug a bunch of leftover flags out of their closet (heh) and ran down there and started passing them out. I take a little bit of joy in the fact that everyone is waving *gay* flags around.

As for the rest of it, I'm mostly just conflicted. While I do have a small urge to put out the flag, I'm finding it difficult to "celebrate" anyone's death. I would say that I'm feeling more somber than celebratory right now.

[MsDemeanor]

They buried him at sea. The Freepers and conspiracy folks are gonna have a field day with this. The GOP is probably crafting attacks; after all, they've already given credit for this to Bush....

[JAGG]

I'd like to thank our Armed services for their dedication and sacrifice in accomplishing this mission. I hope the families and friends of those killed at ground zero, the Pentagon, that field in PA, and those killed fighting the war on terrorism can find some closure and maybe some peace in their lives now.
" Let the whole world know that today is a day of recogning, let the weak be strong, let the right be wrong, cast your stone away, let the guilty pay.... it's Independence day!"

[AtLast]

I just read something on Huff Post about everyone with flags. Apparently, as soon as people started gathering, the folks from Servicemember's United dug a bunch of leftover flags out of their closet (heh) and ran down there and started passing them out. I take a little bit of joy in the fact that everyone is waving *gay* flags around.

As for the rest of it, I'm mostly just conflicted. While I do have a small urge to put out the flag, I'm finding it difficult to "celebrate" anyone's death. I would say that I'm feeling more somber than celebratory right now.


I know I might be putting my lefty card in peril, but I do have an "Old Glory" in my closet. And I hang it on July 4th and Veteran's and Memorial Days (for service members past in my family). have put up a "Rainbow," too. It will be out tomorrow- more for the 9/11 victims and those that were involved in this mission.

Also, in DC, flags can be bought in every 24 hour convenience store around. There were quite a few service members that were at that rally and in NYC- makes sense that SM United would hand out flags. I can understand people wanting to gather and wave flags around this. But, I am having some somber feelings myself because this has made me think so much about this entire decade and all that has stemmed from 9/11 not the least of which are the deaths of over 5000 of our troops and countless civilians. And our lives in terms of security being changed forever as well as all of the hateful sentiments toward Muslims and Islam when the majority are as opposed
to any terrorist activity. And the really sad thing is that we will never be the same as before 9/11. hell, airport security keeps taking on new dimensions and whacko legislators hold bigoted hearings in the name of "national security."

I'm glad that younger people are out there as most of those we have lost in the Iraq & Afghanistan wars are very young. Why wouldn't there be a generational connection among these young people? One was quoted as saying that this was like “VJ Day” for their generation. I kind of get that (although, the struggle against terrorist activity will be forever with us).

Yup, somber- I totally get that.

[atomiczombie]

I wish they would have taken him alive. A trial would be what I would prefer to outright killing him.

[Miss Scarlett]

I wouldn't count on it ensuring a quick exit from Afghanistan. We're fighting the Taliban there more than Osama, he was in Pakistan, they've known that a while now but because of the mountainous area there they were having difficulty finding him. They aren't going to drop their weapons and slink off now. I wouldn't hesitate to say we'll see more attacks for the revenge factor of it.


But, pardon me, WOOOOHOOOO!!!!

i agree and am holding my breath over here...they're not going to just lay down their weapons and surrender.

i wonder about who is going to take over his position now and fear that this person will likely be far more dangerous than Bin Laden on his best day.

[Jess]

I guess I am a cynic also... or else my inner conspiracy theorist has been jump started, but I find it a tad odd that no photos of his body have been released. When Saddam was located, the photos of him being taken into custody and while in custody were all over the world. His hanging was public and ran every two minutes on every news channel.
Bin Laden was the WORLD's most wanted terrorist, shot in the head, body recovered for DNA testing, buried at sea and no one had a cell with a camera? I think if they had time to do DNA research to confirm his identity, they would have had ample time to find a suitable photo of his corpse to release, because ( and I apologize for the cynicism) there is no way in hell those soldiers would not have taken photos of him. This is a HOORAH moment without a doubt, but I will probably reserve my celebration until I see the photos. It's kind of like the infamous "weapons of mass destruction" that weren't there. Bin Laden just feels like another boogeyman or scapegoat in our ongoing struggle with terrorism.

Maybe more shall be revealed in the days and weeks to come. I try to remain open minded, but I tend to prefer evidence. If this helps close a chapter for families and victims of the 9/11 attacks, then I am ever so grateful, because they have suffered far long enough. If it helps send a message to the next "Bin Laden" out there that they too, will be hunted down and killed then good!

[morningstar55]

I guess I am a cynic also... or else my inner conspiracy theorist has been jump started, but I find it a tad odd that no photos of his body have been released. When Saddam was located, the photos of him being taken into custody and while in custody were all over the world. His hanging was public and ran every two minutes on every news channel.
Bin Laden was the WORLD's most wanted terrorist, shot in the head, body recovered for DNA testing, buried at sea and no one had a cell with a camera? I think if they had time to do DNA research to confirm his identity, they would have had ample time to find a suitable photo of his corpse to release, because ( and I apologize for the cynicism) there is no way in hell those soldiers would not have taken photos of him. This is a HOORAH moment without a doubt, but I will probably reserve my celebration until I see the photos. It's kind of like the infamous "weapons of mass destruction" that weren't there. Bin Laden just feels like another boogeyman or scapegoat in our ongoing struggle with terrorism.

Maybe more shall be revealed in the days and weeks to come. I try to remain open minded, but I tend to prefer evidence. If this helps close a chapter for families and victims of the 9/11 attacks, then I am ever so grateful, because they have suffered far long enough. If it helps send a message to the next "Bin Laden" out there that they too, will be hunted down and killed then good!

i was thinking kinda the same thoughts...... didnt they say he was dead once before??? just sayin.......

[cuddlyfemme]

This is so wonderful!!! As was said before, God Bless America!!!!!

[SnackTime]

I guess I am a cynic also... or else my inner conspiracy theorist has been jump started, but I find it a tad odd that no photos of his body have been released. When Saddam was located, the photos of him being taken into custody and while in custody were all over the world. His hanging was public and ran every two minutes on every news channel.
Bin Laden was the WORLD's most wanted terrorist, shot in the head, body recovered for DNA testing, buried at sea and no one had a cell with a camera? I think if they had time to do DNA research to confirm his identity, they would have had ample time to find a suitable photo of his corpse to release, because ( and I apologize for the cynicism) there is no way in hell those soldiers would not have taken photos of him. This is a HOORAH moment without a doubt, but I will probably reserve my celebration until I see the photos. It's kind of like the infamous "weapons of mass destruction" that weren't there. Bin Laden just feels like another boogeyman or scapegoat in our ongoing struggle with terrorism.

Maybe more shall be revealed in the days and weeks to come. I try to remain open minded, but I tend to prefer evidence. If this helps close a chapter for families and victims of the 9/11 attacks, then I am ever so grateful, because they have suffered far long enough. If it helps send a message to the next "Bin Laden" out there that they too, will be hunted down and killed then good!

I saw a picture of Bin Laden over on facebook (just a head shot). It was a lil gruesome. I also followed a link that had a split screen showing the man shot in the head and a previous photo of Bin Laden

I just heard a report on CNN that the DNA is being tested now.

[Jess]

I saw a picture of Bin Laden over on facebook (just a head shot). It was a lil gruesome. I also followed a link that had a split screen showing the man shot in the head and a previous photo of Bin Laden

I just heard a report on CNN that the DNA is being tested now.

Yeah, I hadn't heard about any of this until I woke up today and thus far the story keeps changing and revealing more as the morning progresses. I think it premature to form any "real" opinions about any of the "facts" until it has all had time to be processed.

I am quite sure that any photo of any human shot in the head would be gruesome.

Will just keep listening as things unfold.

[Kobi]

I agree with Jess tho for a different reason. Pictures can be doctored.

DNA is a different story.

Somehow, my cynical brain, is having trouble wrapping itself around an operation that supposedly occurred yesterday. Did the elite commandos bring a dna lab and expert with them? Does the USA have a way to speed up the generation of a dna profile that by conservative estimates takes 7-14 days to cook, and additional time to interpret? I'm not even going to ask who's DNA we compared his to determine it was indeed Bin Laden.

And, then we conveniently buried him at sea, so we wouldn't violate Islamic burial law? The number one thorn in the side of the country is found and killed after a decade long pursuit and we took pains to not violate Islamic law?

:|


In my mind, it is not plausible or logical. It will be interesting to see what develops or doesnt develop over the coming weeks.

As for how this reflects on Obama.....again, in my cynical mind, it does nothing to sure up his credibility or enhance his electability. It actually has the opposite effect given the context of the week he has had.

First, he decides to try and silence the "birthers" by releasing his long form birth certificate. Then he goes on the defensive against the rantings of The Donald. The quarterly earnings reports are coming out which will reflect on the strength or lack thereof of this economic recovery admidst the skyrocketing price of oil. The country is being ravaged by killer tornados.

The timing is interesting. And Kobi doesnt believe in coincidences.

Plus, it seems odd that we didnt up the terror alert status or extend warnings
to Americans traveling abroad in light of this. Retaliation is inevitable.

[girl_dee]

Maybe I'm an optimist but I don't think the President would be stupid enough to lie about this, the biggest thing on the agenda.

I do find the timing very suspicious. Hell the guy was living in a mansion on the outskirts of Pakistan.

[Rook]

I don't mean to rain on folks parade, much less piss in the collective Wheaties...
This is my opinion...
What if said "snake" is a Hydra?...
Cut off one head, 3 more shoot up, and no I do not agree with the analogy of a Presidential assassination for that very reason..There IS such a thing as Presidential line of Succession...
Mr. President died? Ok Mr. Vice-Prez takes over, they shot him too?? Ok, NEXT.....
I too am glad there's one less Terrorist, however I will agree with a few in saying this was a very very public Headhunting expedition for a very long time, and they claim they "Buried" his ass in the Ocean in accordance to supposed Islamic Laws?
Are you aware that there's no such thing as dumping a dead corpse in the Ocean being mandatory funeral service?...
Yes, the corpse must be washed. by Loved ones, it also must be enshrouded in pure cotton, and returned to the EARTH within 24 hrs, quite similar in reasons as Judaic mandates.
When I heard the Ocean deal, 2 things popped up in my head
a-} This will be fodder for skeptics and conspiracy theorists galore [like another poster here]
-&-
b-} All these years, hunting that little prick, starting wars, killing civilians left and right and of course Service men and women..and they dump his fucking body rather quickly in the Ocean after a covert Shoot-out in a Country that has had the U.S. of A stepping on eggshells for years???
It's kind of fishy, hell I even thought "Well, maybe the SEALS in their pissed off hyperness just Threw him overboard to be done with the headache"..
But then, where's the Proof of either capture, death or Success, other than their "solemn" word....
Someone even pointed out it could be a Double for Osama, I kind of doubt it, Obama did say after quite some time of verifying stuff, he gave the "ok", and yes I'm aware Obamas public rating is in the floor for quite a few reasons...
One of them is people expected him to be mr. superman-fix-it-all-NOW, apparently ignoring the fact a President can't do much w/o Congress...
My final pet peeve is, do you remember when 9/11 occured? I'm more than sure that is ingrained in our memories like a very bad nightmare come true.
When they broadcast all those Peasants, all of those "anti-Amrikan" muslims in faraway Countries...Singing and Dancing...
The bitter sting of being disrespected in such a way that many americans commited quite a few hate crimes by Attacking anyone remotely Identified with either Islam, or the stereotype of Islam...
Who's to say those people on tv, singing and dancing..
Chanting U.S.A as if we were in the Olympics and winning Gold medals, don't provoke the exact same bitterness in other Countries that quite seriously detest U.S. Policies on "helping" other countries?...
We should've been the Better Man, it's great we're pleased there's closure for those victims Families, but we should've done our own "praising" without throwing a very visible Party over the Death of a very dangerous man who lead a very Fanatic terrorist Faction.
They did worse? Ok, true..
But, like my momma always asked..
"If your friends Jumped off the fucking bridge, u gonna do it too?"

Again, just my 2cents
:mohawk:

[Julie]

why wouldn't the president lie about this? Presidents lie about simple things, such as blow jobs. If you can lie about something relatively mundane, you lie about something big.

And burial at sea? Serious - Is anybody really buying this? We killed a man (a bad man) and that is against Muslim law, yet we bury him at sea. They did not want his place to be a public shrine?

And if this is true, we in fact did kill him - what do you think his people are going to do now? Of course they have been planning for years what to do next - BUT - these are angry people without logic, who base their decisions on a religion which has been fabricated for Jihad (the Koran does not teach this). Do not for a second think we are safe. Now, it is much worse - if we were at an orange danger, expect a red.

Their leader has been killed. The man they worship as a god. And we are dancing in the streets.
Might as well put a big pink target on us.

God Bless America?!? Are you kidding, America is going to need more than a blessing.

Sleep Tight People!
Julie

[AtLast]

Yeah, I hadn't heard about any of this until I woke up today and thus far the story keeps changing and revealing more as the morning progresses. I think it premature to form any "real" opinions about any of the "facts" until it has all had time to be processed.

I am quite sure that any photo of any human shot in the head would be gruesome.

Will just keep listening as things unfold.

I'm with you- as usual, reporting and source checking via all of the news networks is on rapid fire. There is a lot we do not know about yet. But, you can bet there will people that doubt every single thing about this- there always is. Photo rigging, the timing in terms of political gain, etc. The fact is that we do not get the details of every step in these kinds of situations.

Like you- I can wait for some information that isn't mixed in the heat of the moment. But, the na-sayers will say nay... the level of distrust about government in the US today runs deep. Some of it, I understand, some of it I don't- some is irrational.

Yup.... taking my time with allowing things to unfold. I do absolutely believe he is dead and I am much more interested in the Pakistan factor in why he was where he was for so long. But, have to wait for the goods on that, too. But it does bother me that people are bashing the US government, military and Obama, but are not questioning Pakistan's role in why the hell he was 5 miles from their highest military training academy and 35 miles from their capital.

[Laidbackgrly]

:fastdraq:I have to see his cold dead carkus before i beleive it!:fastdraq:

[Ciaran]

Ok, so he's dead. There might be some sense of accomplishment or feeling that the bogeyman is dead but that's all he was, a bogeyman.

The islamist extremist / jihadist threat was always and has always been much more than about Bin Laden even if sometimes the western media have personified the threat through Bin Laden. By all accounts, Bin Laden had limited practical leadership for most of the last decade and, in any event, there are thousands ready and willing to take his place.

I'd celebrate if a war was won or terrorism was defeated. However, that's not the case. No celebrations from my (admittedly non-American) perspective.

[Apocalipstic]

I, as always, am suspicious. I wonder if Presidents really know what is going on? Do they tell them the truth? Who is they?

If indeed he is dead, I would like to see our troops come home and given the medical and mental health assistance they need to return to their lives.

[Queerasfck]

It's all good. Apretty's got this. She's locked and loaded with her guns ready.....one in the chamber. Right now she's got our condo on heightened security lock down, def con "orange".

However, I have to worry about her judgement! She's been up in our cul-de-sac partying all night with our neighbors!

Yippee ki-yay muthas


send healing light and your prayers!

[Ebon]

He's been dead for awhile. This poor lady Benazir Bhutto was murdered after this.

iz-DL2NtMpk

[apretty]

exactly this:

Ok, so he's dead. There might be some sense of accomplishment or feeling that the bogeyman is dead but that's all he was, a bogeyman.

The islamist extremist / jihadist threat was always and has always been much more than about Bin Laden even if sometimes the western media have personified the threat through Bin Laden. By all accounts, Bin Laden had limited practical leadership for most of the last decade and, in any event, there are thousands ready and willing to take his place.

I'd celebrate if a war was won or terrorism was defeated. However, that's not the case. No celebrations from my (admittedly non-American) perspective.

[Ms. Tabitha]

When Saddam was captured he was all over the news. He was hung, and the world was happy.
Osama is shot, twice. We see footage of the blood stained floor, why can't we see pictures of his body?
I think we should still see it. Just my opinion.

:cigar2:

[girl_dee]

When Saddam was captured he was all over the news. He was hung, and the world was happy.
Osama is shot, twice. We see footage of the blood stained floor, why can't we see pictures of his body?
I think we should still see it. Just my opinion.

:cigar2:

I completely agree, and why not show the video of the *burial at sea*

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's a somber household here, I now worry about my life long friend Dickie Padilla who's over in the middle east, our brothers, sisters, parents and children out there on the frontlines.

It's not a time to celebrate for me, I just hope they come home soon.

[Kobi]

I dont see the value of showing pictures of blood stained, dead bodies or burials at sea even if it is of public enemy number 1.

Flaunting the death of an "enemy" is ill advised, as well as grotesque.

Not creating an "enemy" seems a wiser choice.

[Apocalipstic]

Not creating an "enemy" seems a wiser choice.




What she said!

[princessbelle]

IMO....

If our President was killed America would not fall. We would rise. We would get us another leader and be screaming with weapons across the skies, water and land at the ones responsible. As a few have said here ...there are hundreds that will more than likely raise their hand to take Bin Laden's place.

So, where does that leave us on this planet? IMO it leaves us with an extremely pissed off group of his followers/army who are capable of unthinkable acts of violence.

I pray for our troups and their families. I, like everyone, want them home where they belong. I am proud of them and hurt for them at the same time. I don't believe that killing Bin Laden will accomplish bringing our troups home or make us safer.

I do think he should have been captured/killed but not sure exactly it will accomplish a thing.

I am normally not a pessimist but i have a rather sick feeling about this. I don't believe this is an end to anything. As a matter of fact...it may just be the beginning.

[Novelafemme]

An interesting perspective that echoes my feelings...

http://http://truthout.org/chris-hedges-speaks-osama-bin-laden%E2%80%99s-death/1304343151

...specifically this portion: "When I was in New York, as some of you were, on 9/11, I was in Times Square when the second plane hit. I walked into The New York Times, I stuffed notebooks in my pocket and walked down the West Side Highway and was at Ground Zero four hours later. I was there when Building 7 collapsed. And I watched as a nation drank deep from that very dark elixir of American nationalism … the flip side of nationalism is always racism, it’s about self-exaltation and the denigration of the other."

[Nat]

I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.

I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.

[Novelafemme]

Duality. self vs. other. So what happens, when we realize that...self/other are two sides of the same coin? As a result we are inextricably interconnected. To destroy one is to destroy All. We only hurt our"selves". Until then we are like mice in a wheel, running to stand still.

[Glenn]

If gas goes back to 0.99 per gallon, I'll dance a Fandango. Otherwise, I could give a f*** about any of these "villians."

[The_Lady_Snow]

If gas goes back to 0.99 per gallon, I'll dance a Fandango. Otherwise, I could give a f*** about any of these "villians."



Gas is @ 3.93 here, his death increased prices overnight by 10 cents. Bleah!

[Julie]

$4.14 cents here this morning.
Imagine that.

[UofMfan]

I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.

I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.

This is so well said, thank you.

I don't think celebrations should be taking place. I think it puts people in danger to do so. It is disrespectful and can only incite more those who already hate Westerners.

I pray for our troops and anyone who may be in harms way.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I am glad to be American. I am so very proud of our military soldiers! God bless each and every one of them!

I fear retaliation. Who knows what is next.

[Martina]

i feel like it was better to have done it than not although i do not know why Obama ordered kill and not capture. In any case, i am certainly not jubilant.

What i think is important to remember is all of the movements in North Africa and the Middle East to throw off tyranny. Those young people are, for the most part, calling for democracy. Many are more religious than their rulers, but the majority are not calling for theocracy. The Muslim Brotherhood, for example, did not organize the Egyptian uprising. Anyway i think it's important to remember that the region is not the place we imagined it to be after 911.

[Corkey]

I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.

I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.

Latest briefing is that he was buried at sea, in accordance with Islamic protocols. To have his body won't deter conspiracy theorists, they started the moment the news hit the air. So those who want to see him martyred won't have a place to do so, thankfully, but it isn't going to make us any safer. The head is cut off now they can eat at each other for control of the scrapes. Our soldiers are no closer to coming home, there is a corrupt government in Afghanistan, and until that is fixed our men and women have work to do. Am I glad he's dead, you bet, am I doing a jig, nope, I am however going to remain vigilant.
As far as one of his wives throwing herself in the way of a bullet, or if she was used as a shield, it's still speculation, as a debriefing of those who were there hasn't been fully done.

[Novelafemme]

The Taliban was willing to turn bin Laden over for trial both before and after September 11, 2001. Instead our government opted for years of bloody warfare. And in the end, it was police action (investigation, a raid, and a summary execution) and not the warfare, that reportedly tracked bin Laden down in Pakistan. After capturing him, our government's representatives did not hold him for trial. They killed him and carried away his dead body.

Killing will lead only to more killing. There will be no review of bin Laden's alleged crimes, as a trial would have provided. There will be no review of earlier US support for bin Laden. There will be no review of US failures to prevent the September 11th attacks. Instead, there will be bitterness, hatred, and more violence, with the message being communicated to all sides that might makes right and murder is the way in which someone is, in President Obama's words, brought to justice.

Nothing is actually resolved, nothing concluded, and nothing to be celebrated in taking away life. If we want something to celebrate here, we should celebrate the end of one of the pieces of war propaganda that has driven the past decade of brutality and death. But I'm not going to celebrate that until appropriate actions follow. Nothing makes for peace like ceasing to wage war. Now would be an ideal time to give that a try.

[Corkey]

I'm sorry were you there? Do you know if he had a weapon in his hands? Do you have some sort relationship that got you into the room where orders are given? If he were alive and kicking a trial would have happened, but bringing his body anywhere would have given his supporters a place to worship his sorry ass. His body was given an Islamic burial, so be it. That is all we as humane people can ask. I really have an issue with people who have no military experience speculating about what happens in a black op.

[Scorp]

I can understand how folks are feeling about this all around.

My concern is that there will be more harm in the way for the USA just because that "devil" was finally killed. And quite honestly, there will never be peace in the world. We can only wish and make it as peaceful for ourselves that we can no matter how we choose, and not to live in fear.

This monster has caused so much misery and heartache for folks. And, personally I don't think it's over. I strongly believe there is other harm coming our way whether this monster was dead or alive. When a devious mind does such unmentionable things they continue doing so with having other people appointed to follow out what they call "their mission".

I will NEVER stop looking over my shoulder and no, I'm not saying to "stop living" and be in fear forever. What I'm saying is to be alert at all times no matter what. I'm sure there will always be an overall threat.

I feel for the families, friends, co-workers, etc. of the 9/11 victims and other innocent victims all over the world. I'm sure this brings back all the horrible memories for all on 9/11 and the other tragedies in other countries on those various days. To have to relive this all over again with all of those innocent people who had to die so tragically. I pray all loved ones continue to find strength and go on.

This devil has to answer to someone/something greater and bigger and I'm a firm believer that he will pay the price in the afterworld.

Lastly, I pray and wish for all the troops that they be safe and are able to come home sooner than expected.

[AtLast]

Gas is @ 3.93 here, his death increased prices overnight by 10 cents. Bleah!

It is around $4.59 for regular in these parts. But look to Wall Street speculators and OPEC. Calls for use of our reserves could drop it almost a dollar a gallon. I say do it! And I do not believe that gas prices are related to this at all or what is going on in Libya. All oil worldwide is on the OPEC exchange system- look at how that is run1

[Novelafemme]

I'm sorry were you there? Do you know if he had a weapon in his hands? Do you have some sort relationship that got you into the room where orders are given? If he were alive and kicking a trial would have happened, but bringing his body anywhere would have given his supporters a place to worship his sorry ass. His body was given an Islamic burial, so be it. That is all we as humane people can ask. I really have an issue with people who have no military experience speculating about what happens in a black op.

Are you addressing me, Corkey? Because if you are then I take issue with your vast assumptions regarding my knowledge/non-information of ANY situation, military or not. Please refrain from sarcastically attacking my right to speak my mind, my beliefs and my intelligence. Thank you.

[Corkey]

Are you addressing me, Corkey? Because if you are then I take issue with your vast assumptions regarding my knowledge/non-information of ANY situation, military or not. Please refrain from sarcastically attacking my right to speak my mind, my beliefs and my intelligence. Thank you.

Tell ya' what I'll assume you don't have ANY military experience, I'll also assume you weren't at the White House situation room, I'll also thank you not to assume I was being sarcastic, I wasn't nor am I now. I have said nothing of your intelligence, your beliefs or your right of free speech, only your assumptions.
Have a good day.

[Novelafemme]

Tell ya' what I'll assume you don't have ANY military experience, I'll also assume you weren't at the White House situation room, I'll also thank you not to assume I was being sarcastic, I wasn't nor am I now. I have said nothing of your intelligence, your beliefs or your right of free speech, only your assumptions.
Have a good day.


And we all know what assuming anything achieves.

Our killing of Saddam Hussein has been followed by years of war and hundreds of thousands of pointless deaths. Our attempts to kill Muammar Gadaffi have killed his children and grandchildren and will end no war if they eventually succeed. Our attempts to kill Osama bin Laden, including wars justified by that mission, have involved nearly a decade of senseless slaughter in Afghanistan and the rest of the ongoing global "generational" war that is consuming our nation.

[AtLast]

I think this is complex. I've been listening to Al-Jazeera and Npr this morning, and I've also been reading different friends' from different circles reactions.

My understanding is that many Pakistanis feel their sovereignty has been violated. Also, possibly that the command was to kill him rather than to capture OR kill. There is the hope that since he was found in a city rather than in the hills between Afghanistan and Pakistan, that maybe there can be negotiation for the drone strikes to stop now.

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan was interviewed on NPR and he stated the general mood where he was stationed was mixed relief along with the knowledge that they have at least 6 more months to go. They have not been celebrating but have been cautiously discussing the event with Afghanis, and he said the people in the area where he is have said it's good bin Laden is dead.

There is a story that bin Laden's wife threw herself in front of him and shielded him with her body - and that she was killed too - and there was a mention of how that sort of story is likely to be seen as heroic.

The fact he was buried at sea has also been discussed. Many Americans are talking about conspiracy theories or at least distrust regarding the information given. One of the interviewees on Al Jazeera said it was probably done because it was practical. That if they had buried him, his burial place could have become a shrine and that it would have been inappropriate to bring him back to the US. I suppose I like the sea burial better than having pictures of his dead and mangled body on the front cover of newspapers and on tv (like they did with Saddam's sons under Bush), but to me it seems very weird to dump his body at sea before anybody starts asking hard questions. I do hope all this means that things can become more peaceful and that the world can stop being so us-against-them for a while. (no matter which us and which them).

A girl I've know since elementary school now lives in Turkey. This was her reaction last night: A decade and a pan-Middle East genocide later, he's dead. The MOST conservative estimates put the number of civilian deaths across Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq at around 300,000. So, please excuse me if I don't join in on the jubilation.
I think it's important to remember that although bin laden was (as I see it) a villain, al qaeda's success in radicalizing young Muslims has been fed a great deal by what has been perceived as injustice toward Muslims as well.


I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) around me that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious. Talk to people that have had young people in their families fall prey to what Bin Laden and his followers have been doing for years worldwide. There are far more Muslim deaths under his belt.

I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions and customs to!

I am not feeling jubilant about this- I still feel rather numb. But, I am a bit embarrassed by some of the conspiracy theories floating around. The facts are not out yet and there will be mountains of research done from every perspective. Yet, many jump to conclusions long before the facts are out. Many of which never engage in anything other than complaining.

Sometimes I really wish that youth in the US had to do at least a year of some kind of foreign service before entering college or a trade school. Not necessarily military- Peace Corp, vista, red cross, any number of organizations. There should be a system to support all to be able to do this as many do work early to help support their family (but not in our middle class). Go see the world and how other people really live and experience other forms of government. Then, criticize the US with some knowledge outside of your own little world. I can’t relate how many times I hear how spoiled and self-centered kids are in the eyes of middle eastern immigrant families I know. How disrespectful and aimless these people think our kids are. Sometimes, I have to agree.

I have issues with our governmental actions. I certainly have many about our standing with Muslim nations. Yet, to be honest, I see our educational system failing our kids in world affairs and international understanding as well as science and technology. I see far too many kids here without any sense of family honor being instilled in them or responsibility. Maybe it is my age and ethnic background, but how can we build better relations internationally when most of our kids haven’t knowledge of world history or even US history? Let alone an understanding of world religions and cultural differences. And at home, what do we model? “Oh, don’t worry, if you mess up, Mom & Dad will fix it. You don’t need to take responsibility for your actions, let everyone else pay for your mistakes.”

There may very well be some suspicious situations in this. But, I would like to see the varied accounts and the back up sources before making any judgments.

[Nat]

I have seen here and elsewhere the assertion that "we" killed Saddam Hussein, but I believe legally he was in the custody of the Iraqi government during his trial and execution.

I guess whether or not the Iraqi government can be considered part of "we" depends on how sovereign the Iraqi government was considered at the time.

[atomiczombie]

Ok, so he's dead. There might be some sense of accomplishment or feeling that the bogeyman is dead but that's all he was, a bogeyman.

The islamist extremist / jihadist threat was always and has always been much more than about Bin Laden even if sometimes the western media have personified the threat through Bin Laden. By all accounts, Bin Laden had limited practical leadership for most of the last decade and, in any event, there are thousands ready and willing to take his place.

I'd celebrate if a war was won or terrorism was defeated. However, that's not the case. No celebrations from my (admittedly non-American) perspective.

Agreed, and I think until the US, to a significant degree, pulls its troops out of the Middle East and stops influencing the oil market there, we will have to deal with terrorism from that area. People don't often realize that this isn't a war about religion. It's about US presence and interference in sovereign nations and economic Imperialism. At least that is how it all got started. The wars we have waged there have costs countless lives, which just ingrain the hatred of many people in that region.

[Random]

I neither morn, nor rejoice at his dead.

It was something that simply had to be done.

Why?

Because our goverment said that we would find him and we would kill him.

Once Bush said those words, then it was a done deal.
You can't lose face... Not on that level.

Once those towers fell, The goverment had to show the world that the USA is the biggest, baddest dog on the block.

They had to show the world, that this country would bankrupt it's self, would send thousands of our people to die and spill the blood of anyone that got in our way.

The USA had to strike back harder than we were stricken.

This was not about bringing anyone to justice, getting rid of a monster, making the world a better place....

This was vengence and revenge.

Do I agreee with it?

No.. Hate breeds hate, war breeds war, and no one ever really wins.

There will be retibution, of course there will be, neither sides can afford to be seen as weak.

There is no end to it... not really... War is the human condition

[Martina]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2068931,00.html

[Martina]

Let me tell you about one of America's young people, none of whom i am disappointed in.

Jesus is now 23, i guess. He is married and expecting a child. He is married to his high school sweetheart. He grew up in one of the most violent and gang-ridden neighborhoods in Northern California. He was a drug dealer, a fairly successful one for his age. He decided that he wasn't going to survive in that life, and he didn't want to die. He loved his girlfriend (now his wife), and didn't want her to lose him. So he enlisted. He was sent to Iraq. While he was there, he completed an online undergraduate degree from a respected university. He saved all the college money that the military owed him and paid for it himself. He also saved from his pay and bonuses. He is home and ready to enter a Master's Program with enough savings to pay for it without dipping into his military college money, which is 55K. He can pass that money on to his child, which is his plan.

The rest of the story is the five stars Jesus has tatooed in his arm. They represent the five people he had to kill to stay alive in Iraq. Two of them are children. Jesus looks at those stars every day and lives with the deaths on his soul -- his words. So he got out of a life of crime and poverty. The military helped him, but look at the price he had to pay. He is OK. He is healthy and bright and driven. And he does not deny what he did. He lives with it. He is a good human being. These are our youth. These are the people who represent us overseas. i, for one, am extremely proud of them.

[Nat]

Hi AtLast -

I wanted to address a few of your points (I would address more fully, but I am at work and at the mercy of time and my iphone).

"I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious."

GW is seen by many as a war criminal, and many people could say he is not a "true" Christian, but if his body were dumped in the ocean without a funeral, I'm pretty sure many people (Christian or not) would be upset about it.

However, this issue is somewhat moot since it has been reported that he did receive a proper send-off. I still think it was a weird decision to dump his body in the ocean. I didn't even know it was legal to dump a body in the ocean as a means of burial.

"I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!"

This sort of tit-for-tat logic could justify anything - no matter how horrific. I'm going to hold with the belief that any number of wrongs don't make a right.

[Corkey]

While I'm not pumping my chest in the USA chanting going on in some areas, I do think that justice for 3000+ people of all races who were senselessly killed by a mad man on 9/11 has been done. He's dead and the killing will go on, because that's what humans do if they don't like the way one looks, or if they don't agree with another religion, or for oil.
I'm not going to sit here and have the men and women who serve this country besmirched for their service, sacrifices, and their lives. No one knows better than one who has served just what they are going through. It is up to the citizenry of this country to let their leaders know that the men and women of this country who come home in body bags, in pieces, missing arms, legs, brains, have given enough. The wars will not stop just because one mad man is dead, there are plenty more where he came from.

[Corkey]

Corkey -- I know I have said this before, but I come from a Military family, I was born in an Army Hospital, my Father served, as did my Uncle, Cousins and both Grandfathers.

When I disagree with why we are sending these young people overseas, I am not besmirching them personally. They are doing the job they signed up to do. Many of them have no other choice for a career and further education (but that's a whole 'nother thread). I support our men and women in uniform, I do not support the reason they are over there.

In addition to family, I have many, many friends and family of choice who have proudly served this country in all branches of the service. I am saying "Me" but I think that a lot of us who loathe these wars and the real reasons for them feel similarly.

:)

No one loathes war more than those who serve and who have served. I was not being specific with whom my post was for, I didn't think it was required.

[Novelafemme]

My previous posts are an effort to elicit thoughts of both accountability and peace. My words, albeit at times admittedly inflammatory, are never written to belittle, denigrate or devalue years spent in service to our country. In any capacity. I take issue with the waging of any war. I take issue with war as a suspension of all morality.

[Nat]

Has the military been besmirched in this thread?

[theoddz]

I'm relieved...not celebratory, that that S.O.B. is gone and won't be able to plan or execute any more murders (not saying that there won't be more just like him to take up his banner), but one thing keeps tapping at the back of my mind.....

"An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth does nothing except make the world blind and toothless."

My .02

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Rook]

I won't make this into a Religious Debate, I will say this though..
Asshole, Demon, supreme ayatollah of the Meanest, cruelest sick fuckin sumbitches in Existence, He's still a Muslim...
Whether 3...5...10,000, or 4 million claim he isn't, that they don't agree with his views is an entirely different matter, I'm more than sure any Educated Muslim will agree that only 1 can come down from where ever and say "Hypocrite, Leave".
And the 1 aint even Human.
Wanna go 2 out of 3?
That's the closest to Roman Catholics saying "Ok, my daughters not only gay but s/he's going to Transition...The Pope decries this, and yet she's always been a devout Catholic...Maybe she's not."
I say closest because everyone has their own thoughts on what is, and what isn't, if we listened to all of the "what isn't" we'd be screwed front and back.
To say they gave him a Proper Islamic treatment, w/o proof is like saying (no offense to kabbalists/haredi) the Baal Shem Tov was given a proper Kaddish by muslim Clerics.
They could've very well aprehended him, like Saddam, escorted him to Saudi Arabia, whom btw, to my knowledge, allied themself with the United States AND praised their actions upon notice of his Death.
Like Saddam, he would've faced a severe Trial, unlike Saddam[if I have right info.] it would be a judgment handed down by his Peers.
In accordance with Laws he claimed to revere far more than he'd ever give 2 squirts of piss within Our Judicial system, why? Easy, Shari'ah, contrary to most Western...and some European thoughts, is the word of Allah, something he claims to Love more than his own children..
Could u imagine how tarnished his reputation would've been had he been on trial and threatened them??
After all the shit he's slung in the name of Allah, you actually believe they'd let him go unscathed?
As for Gas, that shit's gonna go up anyways, with or w/o bin Laden news, hell...It started shooting for the stars when the civil unrest occurred in Egypt.

As for showing the Corpse, regardless again that he's the next worse thing to Hitler, there is such a think as our own Humanity, and respect for it...
Had they shown every gruesome picture in Gorey living Color, do you think they wouldnt hit the roof, like they did when the incident of Abu Ghraib occured?{btw, nice punishment to those officers}
I too come from a Military Family, Half of my biological Fathers family are muslim, 4 muslims served in Air Force, Army, and Marines, my father included.
I almost did, but both my health and my youth fucked me over.
My heart goes out to the Troops putting their lives on the Line for OUR freedom to say and do precisely This -waves at this forum-
I have Friends who're married to Soldiers, have Children in Service...
I've spent weeks consoling very cherished Friends sadness after their Spouse was deployed within weeks of returning Home..
I'm as much a Patriot as anyone else...
I will happily call Bullshit, if I see it, smell it or Feel it.
I'll gladly debate till the Cows come home, I won't pay attention or tolerate insults tho.

[theoddz, didnt Gandhi say that ? awesome]
G'day

Al-Azhar University's grand Imam -&- others decries "proper burial" at Sea (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_bin_laden_sea_burial)

[AtLast]

Hi Nat-

I do see your points. My comments ("I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!") - came at the heels of phone conversations with a family member in NYC and a friend there who lost several friends and co-workers after calling them last night upon hearing this news.

No- two wrongs do not make a right. I do have a problem with some of the dismissal of what family members of 9/11 victims have gone through. As well as for those that did rescue work and were just close to the Towers, the Pentagon and in PA. This event is very different for them- many have suffered PTSD for years now as well as other difficulties. I felt like I was talking to them as I did within a short time after the attacks as far as how they were feeling last night.

I have issues with many US actions, however, sometimes I don't think we all think before spouting off in these matters. Think about the fact that our site reaches many people all over not only the US and Canada but the world that have gone through some horrible things.

But, yes, I understand where you are coming from.





Hi AtLast -

I wanted to address a few of your points (I would address more fully, but I am at work and at the mercy of time and my iphone).

"I hear you and I hear the shame of Muslims (quite a few people from the middle east live around me) that do not and have not viewed him as a true Muslim for many years. How he was buried matters not to them. He was not recognized as religious."

GW is seen by many as a war criminal, and many people could say he is not a "true" Christian, but if his body were dumped in the ocean without a funeral, I'm pretty sure many people (Christian or not) would be upset about it.

However, this issue is somewhat moot since it has been reported that he did receive a proper send-off. I still think it was a weird decision to dump his body in the ocean. I didn't even know it was legal to dump a body in the ocean as a means of burial.

"I don't personally like the idea of defaming anyone's faith or burial customs, but, there are many people worldwide (as well as US folks after 9/11) that have never had any remains to apply their traditions or customs to!"

This sort of tit-for-tat logic could justify anything - no matter how horrific. I'm going to hold with the belief that any number of wrongs don't make a right.

[AtLast]

I won't make this into a Religious Debate, I will say this though..
Asshole, Demon, supreme ayatollah of the Meanest, cruelest sick fuckin sumbitches in Existence, He's still a Muslim...
Whether 3...5...10,000, or 4 million claim he isn't, that they don't agree with his views is an entirely different matter, I'm more than sure any Educated Muslim will agree that only 1 can come down from where ever and say "Hypocrite, Leave".
And the 1 aint even Human.
Wanna go 2 out of 3?
That's the closest to Roman Catholics saying "Ok, my daughters not only gay but s/he's going to Transition...The Pope decries this, and yet she's always been a devout Catholic...Maybe she's not."
I say closest because everyone has their own thoughts on what is, and what isn't, if we listened to all of the "what isn't" we'd be screwed front and back.
To say they gave him a Proper Islamic treatment, w/o proof is like saying (no offense to kabbalists/haredi) the Baal Shem Tov was given a proper Kaddish by muslim Clerics.
They could've very well aprehended him, like Saddam, escorted him to Saudi Arabia, whom btw, to my knowledge, allied themself with the United States AND praised their actions upon notice of his Death.
Like Saddam, he would've faced a severe Trial, unlike Saddam[if I have right info.] it would be a judgment handed down by his Peers.
In accordance with Laws he claimed to revere far more than he'd ever give 2 squirts of piss within Our Judicial system, why? Easy, Shari'ah, contrary to most Western...and some European thoughts, is the word of Allah, something he claims to Love more than his own children..
Could u imagine how tarnished his reputation would've been had he been on trial and threatened them??
After all the shit he's slung in the name of Allah, you actually believe they'd let him go unscathed?
As for Gas, that shit's gonna go up anyways, with or w/o bin Laden news, hell...It started shooting for the stars when the civil unrest occurred in Egypt.

As for showing the Corpse, regardless again that he's the next worse thing to Hitler, there is such a think as our own Humanity, and respect for it...
Had they shown every gruesome picture in Gorey living Color, do you think they wouldnt hit the roof, like they did when the incident of Abu Ghraib occured?{btw, nice punishment to those officers}
I too come from a Military Family, Half of my biological Fathers family are muslim, 4 muslims served in Air Force, Army, and Marines, my father included.
I almost did, but both my health and my youth fucked me over.
My heart goes out to the Troops putting their lives on the Line for OUR freedom to say and do precisely This -waves at this forum-
I have Friends who're married to Soldiers, have Children in Service...
I've spent weeks consoling very cherished Friends sadness after their Spouse was deployed within weeks of returning Home..
I'm as much a Patriot as anyone else...
I will happily call Bullshit, if I see it, smell it or Feel it.
I'll gladly debate till the Cows come home, I won't pay attention or tolerate insults tho.

[theoddz, didnt Gandhi say that ? awesome]
G'day

Al-Azhar University's grand Imam -&- others decries "proper burial" at Sea (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110502/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_bin_laden_sea_burial)

Thanks for this link- the burial at sea does not seem to be getting much attention in terms of it being properly sanctioned by Islamic Law on any media I get.

[Novelafemme]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

[~Bo]

I'm not ashamed to say that if I lived close to Ground Zero, I'd be right there with that mob celebrating, shouting USA.....USA at the top of my lungs and waving the US flag.

We've waited 10 long years for this day. Happy???? You're damn right I am!!



We've got one fuckin' rockin' military!! Thank God for Pres Obama!!!

[Nat]

I think celebrating in the streets (and on the internet) dog-whistles approval to the people who are willing to do things like this:

Maine Mosque Vandalized Following Bin Laden Death (http://gawker.com/#!5797930/maine-mosque-vandalized-following-bin-laden-death)

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/05/islam.jpg

On Monday in Portland, ME the walls of the largest mosque in town were spray-painted with "Osama today, Islam tomorow [sic]" and other phrases, sometime following morning prayers on the day after American forces killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan.

[WILDCAT]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

While I so respect your integrity here and sense of spirituality (if I may say?)... I would ask:

*Does not everyone grieve differently and their sense of justice is entitled to them? (Individually, as they see/feel fit?)

*Can you compare the war with Iraq with this "mission"... one having NOTHING TO DO with 9/11? (And many civilians and children lost...?)

*The other "wars" having so many "casualites" and this one mission... having none (for the U.S. or civilians in the area).

*Are you considering the loss/feelings of the victims of the 9/11 families and friends? If they feel a sense of justice, are you angry at THEM?

*Has the majority of innocent "killings" (including WRONG coutries - for going to war against) regarding 9/11 happened during President Bush or under President Obama? Is this NOT an important distinction to make at this time?

*If he (The POTUS) said that it was a priority for his candicacy/presidency... do "get - capture or kill" Bin Laden, has he not done his job then? (That folks wanted this when they elected him.)

*Do you suppose, if MLK was alive today, he would he say... "now, no Blacks in THIS operation against a force that took down our country on 9/11"? (You quote him for "peace", which I why I write this.)
__

I don't understand why folks are questioning NOW what they voted for. Not YOU, but in general. (I don't know who you voted for.) However, the most serious attack on American soil happened that day, and now there is a sense of "justice". Whether one believes in this or that, that he was just KILLED without a snot's chance of surrendering, etc... Do, you think this guy went down without a fight, who once lived in the hills the way he did and conduct countless murderous attacks...? He was in a very comfortable place, a mansion - if you will... knocking down exactly that type of living/lifestyle he preached AGAINST. Folks lived around his greater area lived in slums... (I wonder, did he give those poor folks money, or just for "his cause" against Western Civilization?) And although, I'm not into the "snuffing out" of folks... and many of us have trouble with our "government" and their actions at times, WHY would anyone be upset -- with/and or questioning the president HERE? What a HUGE MEGA gamble this was - for HIM at this time... like he would LIE (?!). Someone who HAS to dot his "I's" and cross his "T's" UNLIKE ANY OTHER president before himPlease, tell me this is NOT BIGOTED? (Not you, the public... since he became president?!)

THANKS!

*WILDCAT

[The_Lady_Snow]

Please refer to POC as their nationality not a color. Please and thank you...

[Julie]

Rook?
I have no idea what you said.
What was the meaning or the ending of your post?

[violaine]

if martin luther king were alive, he might [hard to know it's impossible/hypothetical] still use terms familiar to his speeches - 'black, white, et c.'

pondering topics within this thread; my friend here now, says he prefers 'black,' and we then found this:

Surveys show that the majority of Black Americans have no preference for whether "African American" or "Black" is employed to describe them, although they also show that there is a slight preference for "Black" in personal settings and "African American" in more formal settings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_people

[Nat]

From Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speech, "Beyond Vietnam -- A Time to Break Silence (http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkatimetobreaksilence.htm)" which was delivered in protest to the war in Vietnam, I think it's reasonable to think he might have meant what he said in that quote posted above.

We can no longer afford to worship the god of hate or bow before the altar of retaliation. The oceans of history are made turbulent by the ever-rising tides of hate. And history is cluttered with the wreckage of nations and individuals that pursued this self-defeating path of hate. As Arnold Toynbee says:

Love is the ultimate force that makes for the saving choice of life and good against the damning choice of death and evil. Therefore the first hope in our inventory must be the hope that love is going to have the last word.

We are now faced with the fact, my friends, that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history, there is such a thing as being too late. Procrastination is still the thief of time. Life often leaves us standing bare, naked, and dejected with a lost opportunity. The tide in the affairs of men does not remain at flood -- it ebbs. We may cry out desperately for time to pause in her passage, but time is adamant to every plea and rushes on. Over the bleached bones and jumbled residues of numerous civilizations are written the pathetic words, "Too late." There is an invisible book of life that faithfully records our vigilance or our neglect. Omar Khayyam is right: "The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on."

We still have a choice today: nonviolent coexistence or violent coannihilation. We must move past indecision to action. We must find new ways to speak for peace in Vietnam and justice throughout the developing world, a world that borders on our doors. If we do not act, we shall surely be dragged down the long, dark, and shameful corridors of time reserved for those who possess power without compassion, might without morality, and strength without sight.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Please don't tell a POC what term is ok to use cause Wikipedia says so.

[violaine]

oh. that was merely a brief/ quick reference after my poc friend and i had a conversation. i posted to topic.

i'm sure that i could find more-

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/04/obama-black-support-slips-hispanics-too.html

[AtLast]

Full transcript link-
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=135917389

Lawrence Wright: Bin Laden's Death 'Long In Coming'

The CIA was reaching out to screenwriters, such as I had done, and I said: Well, you know, I'm a reporter. I can't go writing screenplays for the CIA. But I'll tell you in the form of an op-ed for the New York Times what I think if we were able to catch bin Laden.

First of all, remember that bin Laden is the most famous man in the world. He's going to be one of the most famous men in history. So if you have the good luck to catch him, you have to deal with the legacy, not just the man.

And if you catch him, don't kill him because he'll become a martyr, which is what he seeks to be. But don't take him to America just yet.

First of all, take him to Kenya, where on August 6, 1998, he set off a bomb in front of an American embassy, killing 224 people and wounding, blinding 150 Africans. Let him sit in a courtroom in Nairobi and tell 150 blind Africans that he was just striking at a symbol of American power.

And then you can take him to Tanzania, where on the same day, he set off another bomb in front of another American embassy, killing 11 people, all of them Muslims. And bin Laden excused that because it was Friday, and good Muslims would be in the mosque.

I think that would be a wonderful venue to talk about what a good Muslim actually is. And then you could bring him to America and have him answer for the death of the 17 sailors on the USS Cole in October, 2000, and the 3,000 Americans who died on 9/11.

But you don't have to stop there. You can take him so many places. You know, Casablanca, Madrid, London, Bali. But just take him one last place. Take him home and try him under Sharia law, which is the only law that he and his followers would respect.

And if he's convicted, he would be taken to a square in downtown Riyadh, and the executioner is a big man with a long sword, and it's Saudi custom for the executioner to go out and ask the crowd, which is composed of the victims of the condemned man, to forgive him.

And if they couldn't do that, then the executioner would do his job, and bin Laden would be taken and buried in an unmarked Wahhabi graveyard. And I thought in that manner, you could begin to roll back some of his awful legacy.

The whole interview is available via the link above.

[Gayla]

I spend my days driving around, listening to the local news station on the radio (unless there is a baseball game on, then I listen to that). Today was all about this. I listened to approximately 10.5 hours of news coverage. I heard everything from the local response from the guys who hang out in a bar by the military base to the national interviews with, well, with everyone to the one hour special report ABC radio just did.

What I've heard, and what I believe to be true, is that this was a capture or kill mission. He was given the option of surrendering to the special forces and he chose not to. Of course, they would have rather taken him alive but he wasn't going to let that happen.

I also heard, and I believe, that in addition to not wanting to create a shrine at his place of burial, the main reason he was buried at sea is because no country was willing to take his body.

I fully expect the conspiracy theorist to run rampant. I've already heard that he really died 10 years ago, that they actually took him out a month ago and just delayed the news for political gain, that they didn't kill him and he's currently in custody somewhere, that they didn't bury him at sea and are holding his body somewhere, and it goes on and on and on.

Call me naive but until I have something to go on other than random Facebook rants, I will believe what the President tells me.

I still don't feel like this is something to celebrate but it has been interesting to see the little pockets of patriotism that have sprung up since last night. I noticed more flags flying today than I have in a long time. The corner byt he post office where the tea party/pro life folks usually hang out, was occupied today by a random group of folks that I've never seen before. They weren't chanting or singing or really making much of a fuss at all - just standing there, waving their flags. As I sat at the light, a few more folks joined them and by the time I was making my way home they had filled up all four corners of the intersection. I honked and waved.

[BullDog]

I don't believe that peace comes from killing someone. My first reaction was to post the "Imagine" video. I am not celebrating his death.

However, I do believe President Obama and the Navy Seals did their job with professionalism and efficiency. President Obama also gave credit to the Bush Administration- something I can't imagine a Republican President doing in return.

Perhaps I am naive, but I don't think anything seems fishy. If President Obama was doing it for political gain I would think he would have timed this closer to the re-election time and not now. Americans have a short memory. I don't think President Obama would try to fake anything of this nature, so yes I believe Bin Laden is dead and don't think anyone is trying to hide any evidence by burying him at sea. I do believe they tried to respect how his body was handled.

I would have preferred to have seen him brought to trial, but on the other hand I do believe under the leadership of President Obama that the killing of Bin Laden was done as professionally and as ethically as possible.

Now we wait to see what comes next. I believe everyone involved in this mission is very clear that it is far from over.

p.s. thank you Nat for posting the link for President Obama's announcement on the internet. I don't watch tv, so would have missed it otherwise.

[Mitmo01]

If any other country on the face of the earth went through 9/11 like the United States has, they would have hunted him down as well.....he got what he chose....and his death in his mansion was his choosing....unlike the victims of his operations.....he deserved what he got...in my opinion...

[Gayla]

My time in front of an actual computer is so limited these days that I find myself having to cram a whole day's worth of news reading and posting into just a few hours in the middle of the night. So please just pretend that I'm posting these throughout the day like I used to! :)

As I flip through the photos on the news sites and see the images of the celebrations in NYC and in front of the White House I find myself thinking about similar images that I've seen on the news most all of my life. In the past, these have always been of people in other countries, usually, celebrating the downfall, or death, of some "bad" leader or regime. But, I also remember crowds cheering around burning US flags and celebrating when US embassies have been attacked.

I can't help but draw comparisons to those images and the pictures from last night's celebrations and wonder if people around the world are reacting to those images the same way we've reacted in the past. It's striking a couple of different chords within me and making me question some of my own thoughts and feelings around my "why's" of it.

Over the last month, often more than a few times a day, I've had the opportunity to, literally, come face to face with some of my own internal prejudices in ways that I've never had to before. While that's totally a topic for a different thread, I can't ignore the similarities and the interconnectedness of it for me right now, even more so in the events of this last 24 hours.

I've got some "us" vs "them" things going on that make me uncomfortable. Does this mean we are now no "better than them". Have we become just like "those people". I don't like that I'm even thinking in those types of terms but I can admit right now I am and that I'm also aware that's probably at the base of my overall uncomfortableness with the celebrations. As someone else mentioned, I'd like to think that we are "better than that" but even that thought makes me cringe a little inside.

Honestly, I'm surprised at how complex my thoughts and reactions are around all of this.

[morningstar55]

i dont know about anyone else.........
.......... but

all this news everywhere i turn too, on line , news paper, tv, radio...... people all rejoicing in Osama dead....

makes me think of this.........

rHJoj9IqeKg

[girl_dee]

Forgive me for not being up to speed on the details, I don't watch tv and have stayed away from the media hype, but were the other people killed in the raid buried at sea as well? Have they disclosed this? I couldn't find any info on this.

[Gráinne]

While I suppose I'm glad that justice was served, I still see no difference in the celebrations over his death and the ones in the Middle East over 9/11. Both make me feel very uncomfortable.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Killing One Monster, Unleashing Another: Reflections on Revenge and Revelry


Tim Wise (http://www.redroom.com//blog/tim-wise/killing-one-monster-unleashing-another-reflections-revenge-and-revelry)


May 2, 2011, 8:15 pm

There is a particularly trenchant scene in the documentary film, Robert Blecker Wants Me Dead, in which Blecker - who teaches at New York University School of Law and is the nation's most prominent pro-death penalty scholar - travels to Tennessee's Riverbend Prison for the execution of convicted murderer, Daryl Holton. Blecker is adamant that Holton, who murdered his own children, deserves to die for his crime. Yet, when he gets to the prison on the evening of Holton's electrocution, Blecker is disturbed not only by the anti-death penalty forces whom he views as dangerously naive, but also by those who have come to literally cheer the state-sponsored killing. He agrees with their ultimate position, but can't understand why they feel the need to celebrate death, to party as a life is taken. The event is somber, he tries to tell them. Human life is precious, he insists; so precious, in Blecker's mind, that occasionally we must take the lives of killers so as to reinforce that respect for human life. But there is no reason to revel in the death of another, he tries to explain. While I disagree with Blecker on the matter of the death penalty, I felt sympathy for him in that moment, trying to thread the needle between advocacy of killing - any killing - and the retention of the nuance that allows the supporter of such a thing to still preach about the sanctity of life. It was a nice attempt, and heartfelt.
Of course, his pleas for solemnity fall on deaf ears. His ideological compatriots cannot comprehend him. They even misunderstand his position on the ultimate issue, presuming at first that his unwillingness to cheer the death of one as evil as Holton means he must oppose the death penalty, and that he doesn't care about the children Holton killed. Ultimately, Blecker walks away, clearly shaken, not in his support for capital punishment, but by the way in which others on his own side seem to literally glorify death, even need it.
I was reminded of this scene today, while watching coverage of the celebrations around the country (but especially in Washington D.C. and Manhattan), which began last night when it was announced that Osama bin Laden was dead. In front of the White House were thousands of affluent and overprivileged (and mostly white) college students from George Washington University (among the nation's most expensive schools), partying like it was spring break. Never needing an excuse to binge drink, the GW and Georgetown co-eds responded to the news of bin Laden's death as though their team had just won the Final Four. That none of them would have had the guts to actually go and fight the war that they seem to support so vociferously - after all, a stint in the military might disrupt their plans to work on Wall Street, or to become high-powered lawyers, or just get in the way of their spring formal - matters not, one supposes. They have other people to do the hard work for them. They always have.
In New York, the throngs assembled may have been more economically diverse, but the revelry was similar. Lots of flags, chants of "U.S.A., U.S.A.," and an overall "rah-rah" attitude akin to that which one might experience at a BCS Bowl game, and once again, mostly led by guys who would never, themselves, have gone to war, to get bin Laden or anyone else.
You have to wonder - or actually, you don't because the answer is so distressingly obvious - would these throngs pour into the streets to celebrate in this fashion if it were announced that a cure for cancer had been discovered, or for AIDS? Would thousands of people be jumping up and down belting out patriotic chants if the president were to announce that our country's scientists had found a new, affordable method for wiping out all childhood disease, malnutrition or malaria in poor countries around the world? Though these maladies kill far more than Osama bin Laden ever dreamt of slaughtering, and although any of these developments would be a source of intense pride for millions, there is almost no chance that they would be met with drunken revelry. Partying is what we do when we kill people, when we beat someone, when we grind them to dust. It is not what we do when we save lives or end suffering. Saving lives or doing humanitarianism is like making love, while killing people is tantamount to a good, hard, and largely one-sided fuck; and unfortunately we know which of these two things men, in particular, are more apt to prefer.
Don't get me wrong: I am not a pacifist. I know there are times when violence may be necessary, either in self-defense, vicarious defense of others, or to prevent greater violence. If you were to break into my house and attempt to harm my family, let there be no misunderstanding: you would die, and I would kill you, without so much as a moment's hesitation. But I would not, upon having taken your life (however justified), proceed to pop a cold one, invite friends over and dance around your bloody body. I would not be happy about what I had done. Taking a life, even when you have no choice, is no cause for joy. It is a grave and serious event; and it is utterly unnatural, such that militaries the world over have to dehumanize their enemies and work furiously to break down their soldiers' natural human tendencies to not kill. The fact that violence may be necessary in certain cases, and even in the case of stopping bin Laden, cannot, in and of itself justify raucous celebrations of his death at the hands of the United States.
So yes, we can argue that bin Laden deserved to die. But that's the easy part. Beyond what one deserves, whether they be terrorists or just street criminals, there is the matter of what society needs. And it may be that what a healthy society needs is less bombastic rhetoric, less celebratory embrace of violence, and less jingoistic nationalism, even if that means that we have to respond to the news of bin Laden's death with a more muted tone, perhaps being thankful in private, or even drinking a toast with friends in our own homes, but not turning the matter into public spectacle, the likes of which cheapens matters of life and death to little more than a contest whose results can be tallied on a scoreboard.
It may prove cathartic that one the likes of bin Laden is dead. His death may provide an opportunity for a much-needed exhaling; but that doesn't render it the proper subject of a pep rally. And given the larger need to challenge the mentality of disposability that is at the root of all murderous violence, it may be that in such moments we would be far better off to solemnly commemorate the death of the monster than to cheer it openly, when the latter is so likely to inflame passions on the part of those whose allegiance to the monster remained unsullied right to the end.
Ultimately, the mentality of human disposability that animates war, terrorism, gang violence and all forms of homicidal street crime, is a dangerous one to indulge, and certainly to indulge giddily. Such a mindset feeds upon itself, perpetuates itself without end, and serves to ratify the same in others. Surely we should strive to do better, even when, for various reasons, we can't manage it, and are required to take life for one reason or another. Most soldiers, after all, are not happy or self-satisfied about the things they've done in war. For many, if not most, killing even when you have no choice, is life-changing. It scars. It comes back in the middle of the night, haunting the soldier's dreams for years, and sometimes forever. We do not honor them or their sacrifices by treating the mortal decisions they so often have to make as if they were no more gut-wrenching than those made during the playing of a video game.
Perhaps the only thing more disturbing than the celebrations unleashed in the wake of bin Laden's demise was the cynical way in which the president suggested that his killing proved "America can do whatever we set our mind to." If this is, indeed, the lesson of bin Laden's death, then this only suggests we clearly don't want to diminish, let alone end, child poverty, excess mortality rates in communities of color, rape and sexual assault of women (including the many thousands who have been victimized in the U.S. military), or food insecurity for millions of families; because we aren't addressing any of those things with nearly the aplomb as that put to warfare and the killing of our adversaries.
We are, if the president is serious here, a nation that has narrowly constricted its marketable talents to the deployment of violence. We can't manufacture much of anything, but we can kill you. We can't fix our schools, or build adequate levees to protect a city like New Orleans from floodwaters. But we can kill you. We can't reduce infant mortality to anywhere near the level of other industrialized nations with which we like to compare ourselves. But we can kill you. We can't break the power of Wall Street bankers, or jail any of those bankers and money managers who helped orchestrate the global financial collapse. But we can kill you. We can't protect LGBT youth from bullying in schools, or ensure equal opportunity for all in the labor market, regardless of race, gender, sexuality or any other factor. But we can kill you. Booyah, bitches.
But somewhere, I suspect, there is a young child - maybe the age of one of my own - who is sitting in front of a television tonight in Karachi, or Riyadh. And he's watching footage of some fraternity boy, American flag wrapped around his back, cheering the death of one who this child believes, for whatever fucked up reason, is a hero, and now, a martyr.
And I know that this child will likely do what all such children do; namely, forget almost nothing, remember almost everything, and plan for the day when he will make you remember it too, and when you will know his name. And if (or when) that day comes, the question will be, was your party worth it?

[Nat]

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."-Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but late last night I found out this quote was misattributed to Martin Luther King Jr. I wanted to set the record straight because I backed this quote up by providing part of an actual speech by him - and I never doubted that this quoted quote was made up.

**takes bite of humble pie**

http://mashable.com/2011/05/03/altered-mlk-quote/

[Novelafemme]

I'm not sure if this has already been said, but late last night I found out this quote was misattributed to Martin Luther King Jr. I wanted to set the record straight because I backed this quote up by providing part of an actual speech by him - and I never doubted that this quoted quote was made up.

**takes bite of humble pie**

http://mashable.com/2011/05/03/altered-mlk-quote/


My thoughts...

One important thing not being acknowledged in this discourse is how many people were reaching out to one of our greatest leaders in nonviolent social change as a way to make sense of their own response to this violent action. Sometimes solidarity in this way is important as is seeking out the words of great leaders we respect as means to make sense of reactions we might not yet have vocabulary for. I also think the misattribution of that one sentence is being blown out of proportion instead of focusing on how many and how much people wanted to communicate the sentiment embedded in that quote.

[Linus]

Just for interesting sake: http://www.boingboing.net/2011/05/02/who-is-osama-bin-lad.html

Apparently there are quite a few who do not know who Osama Bin Laden is and why his death is so important. :blink: Maybe I should stick this in the :| thread since that what it made me do.

[Starbuck]

I don't watch much tv and that I do watch is usually from the DVR so I can rush through commercials. I listen to mostly CDs and therefore do not get radio news either...guess I'm kinda protected from, or ignorant of (if you will), all the negativity shown in the media and on tv in general. I'm just sick to death of hearing about it.

I still haven't seen anything on the tv about Osama's death, don't really care to either. But that doesn't change the fact that I am glad that the hunt for his sorry ass is over! Notice I did not say I was glad he was dead, I said I am glad the hunt for him is over...BIG difference! I do hope that this will help draw down American troop involvement "over there" so our men and women can stop dying too young.

[Toughy]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_geronimo

Senate official: Wrong to link bin Laden, Geronimo

The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee is objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.

Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, said Tuesday it was inappropriate to link Geronimo, whom she called "one of the greatest Native American heroes," with one of the most hated enemies of the United States."These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating," Tuell said.

Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe's reservation in Idaho. The Senate Indian Affairs panel had previously scheduled a hearing for Thursday on racial stereotypes of native people. Tuell said the use of Geronimo in the bin Laden raid will be discussed.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. "It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists," said Paula Antoine of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe in South Dakota.

A White House spokesman referred questions about the code name to the Pentagon. A Defense Department spokeswoman declined to comment.

Jefferson Keel, president of National Congress of American Indians, the largest organization representing American Indians and Alaska Natives, said, "Osama bin Laden was a shared enemy."

Keel said that since 2001, 77 American Indians and Alaskan Natives have died defending the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 400 have been wounded.

[AtLast]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden_geronimo

Senate official: Wrong to link bin Laden, Geronimo

The top staffer for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee is objecting to the U.S. military's use of the code name "Geronimo" for Osama bin Laden during the raid that killed the al-Qaida leader.

Geronimo was an Apache leader in the 19th century who spent many years fighting the Mexican and U.S. armies until his surrender in 1886.

Loretta Tuell, staff director and chief counsel for the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, said Tuesday it was inappropriate to link Geronimo, whom she called "one of the greatest Native American heroes," with one of the most hated enemies of the United States."These inappropriate uses of Native American icons and cultures are prevalent throughout our society, and the impacts to Native and non-Native children are devastating," Tuell said.

Tuell is a member of the Nez Perce tribe and grew on the tribe's reservation in Idaho. The Senate Indian Affairs panel had previously scheduled a hearing for Thursday on racial stereotypes of native people. Tuell said the use of Geronimo in the bin Laden raid will be discussed.

Steven Newcomb, a columnist for the weekly newspaper Indian Country Today, criticized what he called a disrespectful use of a name revered by many Native Americans.

"Apparently, having an African-American president in the White House is not enough to overturn the more than 200-year American tradition of treating and thinking of Indians as enemies of the United States," Newcomb wrote.

After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. "It's another attempt to label Native Americans as terrorists," said Paula Antoine of the Rosebud Sioux Tribe in South Dakota.

A White House spokesman referred questions about the code name to the Pentagon. A Defense Department spokeswoman declined to comment.

Jefferson Keel, president of National Congress of American Indians, the largest organization representing American Indians and Alaska Natives, said, "Osama bin Laden was a shared enemy."

Keel said that since 2001, 77 American Indians and Alaskan Natives have died defending the U.S. in Afghanistan and Iraq. More than 400 have been wounded.




Thanks for this post, Toughy. this really does need to be discussed. When I first saw some coverage about this and Geronimo being used, I thought WTF? So, Native Americans must be very upset. I hope this starts to get more press.

On another note (not directed to this post, but to discussions about Muslim burial)- I'm feeling like there is a clear distinction being made (that I didn't not get at all at first) about his body preparation and burial at sea.

His body was treated with regard for Muslim burial preparation, but there is really not a claim that a sea burial is accepted as proper to Muslims (other than some claims that if that is where the body is within the time appropriate time frame) that our actual putting him out to sea is keeping with Muslim traditions. In fact, the sea burial was a very conscious decision so that his followers had no place to martyr him or make into a shrine for him.

So, my present understanding is that the body preparation was done according to Muslim traditions, but not the sea burial and the US is not claiming that it was. Which brings up a whole other set of criticisms. I am not agreeing with this action- I am exploring why it.

This certainly doesn't let us off the hook to criticism for not honoring these traditions, however. And this can certainly have some negative consequences for the US. I hope there will be more information given about this that includes Muslim experts.

[Mister Bent]

"They say that revenge is a dish that's best served cold. We've been waiting a long time for this particular dish to cool, and now that I've eaten it, I'm surprised to find that it's pretty tasteless and unsatisfying."

This article (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/death-comes-as-the-end/238216/) succinctly sums it up for me; acknowledging that bin Laden's death was, effectively, mere retaliation. We gain nothing. We are not safer, no troops are coming home, the waste that was the war in Iraq (where were the weapons of mass destruction? Did we end or even deter terrorism as a result?) can't be erased.


Ten years later, I feel none of the righteous joy that I expected. It mostly just fills me with grief for all the deaths between then and now that should never have happened. I'm glad we've taken a terrorist out of circulation, of course. But maybe because I'm older, and mortality seems all too depressingly real, I find it hard to celebrate anyone's death--no, not even Bin Laden's. The families of the victims deserved some satisfaction, of course, and a certainly hope they got it. But these days, all of humanity seems so fragile to me, the universes of our minds so easily destroyed. No matter how much Team Death deserves to win, I find it hard to cheer when the Grim Reaper does his victory dance in the end zone.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think killing Bin Laden was morally or even tactically wrong. I just think it's profoundly unsatisfying. We won't recover any of the things that he took from us, or even the things we took from ourselves, like the ability to travel around the country without being treated like a potential terrorist. Destroying Osama did not unmake him, which is what I really wanted. He may be dead, but we're still living with him.

(Emphasis mine.)

[AtLast]

"They say that revenge is a dish that's best served cold. We've been waiting a long time for this particular dish to cool, and now that I've eaten it, I'm surprised to find that it's pretty tasteless and unsatisfying."

This article (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/death-comes-as-the-end/238216/) succinctly sums it up for me; acknowledging that bin Laden's death was, effectively, mere retaliation. We gain nothing. We are not safer, no troops are coming home, the waste that was the war in Iraq (where were the weapons of mass destruction? Did we end or even deter terrorism as a result?) can't be erased.


Ten years later, I feel none of the righteous joy that I expected. It mostly just fills me with grief for all the deaths between then and now that should never have happened. I'm glad we've taken a terrorist out of circulation, of course. But maybe because I'm older, and mortality seems all too depressingly real, I find it hard to celebrate anyone's death--no, not even Bin Laden's. The families of the victims deserved some satisfaction, of course, and a certainly hope they got it. But these days, all of humanity seems so fragile to me, the universes of our minds so easily destroyed. No matter how much Team Death deserves to win, I find it hard to cheer when the Grim Reaper does his victory dance in the end zone.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think killing Bin Laden was morally or even tactically wrong. I just think it's profoundly unsatisfying. We won't recover any of the things that he took from us, or even the things we took from ourselves, like the ability to travel around the country without being treated like a potential terrorist. Destroying Osama did not unmake him, which is what I really wanted. He may be dead, but we're still living with him.

(Emphasis mine.)




Thanks for posting this. And now there will be all the analysis about Obama deciding not to publish the death photos. Get ready for the deluge!

[Ebon]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and how did they get the original DNA sample to match it against the DNA's of dead Osama?

[Corkey]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and how did they get the original DNA sample to match it against the DNA's of dead Osama?

His family has given samples.

[Lynn]

"They say that revenge is a dish that's best served cold. We've been waiting a long time for this particular dish to cool, and now that I've eaten it, I'm surprised to find that it's pretty tasteless and unsatisfying."

This article (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/death-comes-as-the-end/238216/) succinctly sums it up for me; acknowledging that bin Laden's death was, effectively, mere retaliation. We gain nothing. We are not safer, no troops are coming home, the waste that was the war in Iraq (where were the weapons of mass destruction? Did we end or even deter terrorism as a result?) can't be erased.


Ten years later, I feel none of the righteous joy that I expected. It mostly just fills me with grief for all the deaths between then and now that should never have happened. I'm glad we've taken a terrorist out of circulation, of course. But maybe because I'm older, and mortality seems all too depressingly real, I find it hard to celebrate anyone's death--no, not even Bin Laden's. The families of the victims deserved some satisfaction, of course, and a certainly hope they got it. But these days, all of humanity seems so fragile to me, the universes of our minds so easily destroyed. No matter how much Team Death deserves to win, I find it hard to cheer when the Grim Reaper does his victory dance in the end zone.

Don't get me wrong: I do not think killing Bin Laden was morally or even tactically wrong. I just think it's profoundly unsatisfying. We won't recover any of the things that he took from us, or even the things we took from ourselves, like the ability to travel around the country without being treated like a potential terrorist. Destroying Osama did not unmake him, which is what I really wanted. He may be dead, but we're still living with him.

(Emphasis mine.)




My feelings exactly, including the emphases. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know when and how did they get the original DNA sample to match it against the DNA's of dead Osama?

One report pointed to family members. We have had a relationship with the royal family of Saudi Arabia for a long time. I think he is 17th out od 112 siblings! Lots of DNA out there to use- his family banished him long ago. There are probably fingerprints available too. Possibly blood samples via medical records via the family.

I hope the science and technology behind the facial progression recognition computer imaging is eventually released or a documentary done on it.

There could actually be his DNA preserved somewhere and has been profiled and preserved quite awhile ago. In his early terrorist days, he did partake in the actual events. Our CIA and even the FBI could have had access to this data through other countries including Saudi Arabia (he killed many in his own country). This would be right around the time there was thinking about preserving DNA but before the level of testing we have today.

I bet all of this will eventually be presented. Here is a link about the family DNA samples-

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/05/bin-laden-dna-is-a-999-percent-match-of-familys-dna.html

This one is about forensic facial recognition softeware-

All identification techniques can have problems- so it appears there are several being used. The initial DNA results could have been within a few hours, but these would not be of the quality (accuracy) as the tests that take much longer. Oh, and good old dental records are in the mix!
http://www.thetruthaboutforensicscience.com/the-forensic-science-of-the-identification-of-osama-bin-laden/

[Miss Scarlett]

With regard to DNA testing...i imagine he has children...it's as simple as testing the paternal bloodline. Unless he has an identical twin who could have fathered the child(ren).

[AtLast]

Info on Bin Laden- Bin Laden's history (pre-9/11), especially how very affluent he was. This was not a poor, uneducated, common Saudi man. He was part of the Saudi royal family. The guy did not grow up in caves! In fact, he took on the persona of the common Saudi to gain rapport with those he could train to carry out terror. He was very cunning sociopath- not a pious religious man.

He has been hunted by many countries worldwide for many years. His DNA as well as a whole host of other things from medical and dental records have been kept by intelligence agencies around the world.

This is one article that at least gives a glimpse into his history before the many attacks wordwide he had a part in.

So many folks seem to have very little knowledge about his history and only focus on 9/11. I have talked with people in real time many times that believe he was some kind of hero of the common people brought up with nothing. He received an education in elite schools and had access to billions of dollars.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8488396/Osama-bin-Laden-the-tale-of-a-Saudi-born-heir-to-a-construction-company-who-founded-al-Qaeda.html

[EnderD_503]

TRALEE PEARCE
From Friday's Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, May. 05, 2011 4:17PM EDT

In the hours and days after Osama bin Laden’s death, television screens were filled with images of smiling Americans – many with their children in tow – flocking to the White House and the World Trade Center site to wave flags and cheer the death of an enemy.

One mother in Pennsylvania sent her son to elementary school with his face painted with the American flag and the date of Mr. bin Laden’s death. (She chose to take him home rather than comply with the school’s demand that he wash it off.)

The elated response gave many observers, including some Canadian parents, a queasy feeling about the moral implications of cheering revenge, especially for kids.

Parents and educators had the worst kind of teachable moment on their hands: the kind without a clear-cut lesson.

A known world terrorist was dead. That’s good, right? Our side killed him. Is that good? Or kind of sad, too?

Psychologists suggest the case could be confusing to children who are just starting to set their moral compasses. Kids can interpret the jubilant reactions to mean that if someone hurts them or their family, it’s okay to hurt them back, Washington-based psychologist Marilyn Price-Mitchell pointed out.

New Yorker Denene Millner blogged about telling her two daughters the news while trying to be sensitive. As she wrote on My Brown Baby, the news hit very close to home, but she called gleeful reactions “disgusting.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/young-children/children-development/mommy-why-are-people-celebrating-murder/article2011561/

To me his death is neither here nor there. Whatever threat he may have posed was created by the US itself when it chose to intervene on the side of "freedom fighters" (aka extremists) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Unfortunately these mistakes are being repeated in Libya in particular.

Instead of rejoicing over the death, maybe people should take this time to truly think about the effects of their actions, how American imperialist intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere has caused so much death and very little good whatsoever (and now Western power in general in Libya). How about learning from past mistakes instead of rejoicing over the death of a American made enemy and on the other side claiming how America is in the "right." That would evidently be asking too much.

On a side note, all this "god bless america" stuff makes me a bit queasy, really. That's so problematic I don't even know where to begin.

So many folks seem to have very little knowledge about his history and only focus on 9/11. I have talked with people in real time many times that believe he was some kind of hero of the common people brought up with nothing. He received an education in elite schools and had access to billions of dollars.


Probably left over from his elevation to "freedom fighter" by the US during the Soviet years.

[Novelafemme]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/young-children/children-development/mommy-why-are-people-celebrating-murder/article2011561/

To me his death is neither here nor there. Whatever threat he may have posed was created by the US itself when it chose to intervene on the side of "freedom fighters" (aka extremists) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Unfortunately these mistakes are being repeated in Libya in particular.

Instead of rejoicing over the death, maybe people should take this time to truly think about the effects of their actions, how American imperialist intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere has caused so much death and very little good whatsoever (and now Western power in general in Libya). How about learning from past mistakes instead of rejoicing over the death of a American made enemy and on the other side claiming how America is in the "right." That would evidently be asking too much.

On a side note, all this "god bless america" stuff makes me a bit queasy, really. That's so problematic I don't even know where to begin.



Probably left over from his elevation to "freedom fighter" by the US during the Soviet years.

If I could stand up and applaud this post, I would. Excellent!

[AtLast]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/young-children/children-development/mommy-why-are-people-celebrating-murder/article2011561/

To me his death is neither here nor there. Whatever threat he may have posed was created by the US itself when it chose to intervene on the side of "freedom fighters" (aka extremists) during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Unfortunately these mistakes are being repeated in Libya in particular.

Instead of rejoicing over the death, maybe people should take this time to truly think about the effects of their actions, how American imperialist intervention in the Middle East and elsewhere has caused so much death and very little good whatsoever (and now Western power in general in Libya). How about learning from past mistakes instead of rejoicing over the death of a American made enemy and on the other side claiming how America is in the "right." That would evidently be asking too much.

On a side note, all this "god bless america" stuff makes me a bit queasy, really. That's so problematic I don't even know where to begin.



Probably left over from his elevation to "freedom fighter" by the US during the Soviet years.

Probably, yet, my guess is that most people in the US do not have much knowledge of even that time period and bin Laden! I am not very happy at times with our educational system- it has declined over the last few decades so terribly. And I feel that this contributes to some of the plain stupidity of our actions. Take a look at how our teachers are treated in the US and also credential programs here are not what they used to be as well as curriculum development. We are paying a high price for this. Believe me, Ender, I would love to sit down with younger people in the US that have not only the historical knowlwdge you and many others have, but the curiosity and sense of responsibility to pursue this knowledge. Just the internet alone puts so much more of this information in front of us. We don't need a degree to learn, just the wisdom to to do so. Although I agree with the imperial nature the US has played all over the world and it is not something I am proud of- all Western nations have contributed to very disrespectful treatment of various regions and continue to.

I know many people that have never set foot on a college campus that are avid readers of a multitude of subjects and can sit my butt right down and fill me in on things I do not know. Guess there needs to be a hunger for knowledge and to keep up with current events.

Sometimes, I do tire of the stereotypes of people in the US- more than half of us are to the left of center and do not like US imperialist ways. Many serve in our military and in our government- but at present, just don't have enough of a majority in our political institutions to get agendas moving in another direction. Hell, it has only been 2 years since "W" and "Dick"!

PS- I did see your mention on the Western powers involvement in Libya (UN). Sometimes I wonder if a strong multi-country aliance could be built among just people- and have some effect on all of these countries. An internation aliance with an understanding of how we all contribute to these insane acts against other countries. I knmow, I'm an idealist.

[CherylNYC]

Apologies in advance. I normally read all the way through a thread before I post, but I'm on painkillers due to an accident, and I just don't have enough continuity of thought at this time. I confess to having merely skimmed this thread, but I wanted to post my experiences here, anyway.

I live in a Brooklyn neighbourhood notable for it's Lower Manhattan views. Every time I see my amputated skyline I still don't recognise it, even nearly 10 years later. The attacks of 9/11 changed my city in so many ways I can't begin to name them, and none of those changes were positive. I didn't personally lose anyone in those attacks, but I lost my city as I knew it, and I took it all very personally.

I've been following bin Laden's career in terrorism since early in the Clinton administration. He was responsible for a great many horrible crimes. I knew instantly that he was responsible for the attacks of 9/11 since they bore his signature style. Like many, I rolled my eyes at Bush Jr's cowboy rhetoric following the attack, ("You can run, but you can't hide." Remember?), but I actually expected him to follow through on that promise. Silly me.

I was disgusted and appalled when it became increasingly obvious over the next year that Bush had no intention of capturing Osama bin Laden, and was instead using our loss as a pretext to attack Iraq, a country that had never attacked us. Sure, Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, but he wasn't the bad guy who attacked us. That bad guy was laughing his ass off at us while we spent our resources and precious young lives chasing his sworn enemy, Saddam Hussein. And we looked like a bunch of ignorant bigots who couldn't tell one Arab from another. I saw the failure to capture bin Laden as a clear issue of criminal justice. I became increasingly horrified that my money was about to be used to wage an illegal and immoral war, so I did the only thing I could think of.

Almost a year and a half after 9/11 I put up a sign in front of my house. It was a day-counter that asked one simple question. This past Sunday night my sign read:

9 years, 232 days since 9/11/01

WHERE IS OSAMA BIN LADEN?

I changed the number on my sign every morning since the first day I put it up nearly 8 and 1/2 years ago. When I went on vacation, (or on an unexpected journey to the hospital after my recent accident), my wonderful neighbours changed the number for me. The sign had become sort of iconic in my funky artist's neighbourhood, and my neighbours were very supportive of the message.

My sign was both a vigil and a daily protest. I asked the question because no one else was asking. I counted the days because it was unconscionable to me that this criminal was at large for so long. I deliberately made the simplest sign possible because I had one important question, and I didn't want anything to distract from it. For the last 9 years and 232 days no one in the mainstream press or in the criminal Bush administration seemed to care very much about the answer.

The phone started ringing on Sunday night and it didn't stop for days. My wonderful neighbours helped me take my sign down on Monday morning. I had no idea at the time that it was about to become part of the mainstream media coverage of bin Laden. Some reporters called first, but many just showed up and knocked on my door. ALL DAY. And all day Tuesday, too. Interviews and pictures of my sign ended up in at least 6 newspapers including the NY Times, and some radio and television spots as well. I was sorely tempted to ask all those reporters where they had been for the last 9 years and 232 days, but I decided to stay on-point instead.

The recent accident that sent me to the hospital was quite serious, (18 broken bones including a shattered pelvis that needed 8 hours of surgery to rebuild), and I worked my butt off to get 'paroled' from the rehab facility on Saturday. Yay for me. DAMN, it's good to be home! I'm just so very glad that I was home in time to take my sign down on Monday morning. I think I would have chewed my arm off in frustration had I still been incarcerated in rehab. The really good thing that came out of all this is that my simple sign, with all it's cracks and peeling paint, is going to the permanent collection of the 9/11 Museum which will open in the basement of the new WTC in 2012.

(On a personal note, I have to say that I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY to have had so many published pictures of me on crutches and wearing my hideous white plastic clamshell body brace and one unnaturally swollen thigh. Ugh.)

There's been a great deal of soul searching about what it means to rejoice over bin Laden's death. Some have been arguing that his demise makes no real difference. I wish more people would remember that this is about criminal justice. I don't celebrate in the streets when any other murderer is captured, and I have no illusions that taking one murderer off the street will end all crime. Criminal justice is about holding each person responsible for their crimes. The person who murdered 3,000 of my neighbours and changed my city forever is no longer at large. There will be other mass murderers, but this was about one man and his crimes. My question was answered. I'm happy to have been able to take down my sign.

[Martina]

Wow! Thank you for sharing that, Cheryl!

[AtLast]

Apologies in advance. I normally read all the way through a thread before I post, but I'm on painkillers due to an accident, and I just don't have enough continuity of thought at this time. I confess to having merely skimmed this thread, but I wanted to post my experiences here, anyway.

I live in a Brooklyn neighbourhood notable for it's Lower Manhattan views. Every time I see my amputated skyline I still don't recognise it, even nearly 10 years later. The attacks of 9/11 changed my city in so many ways I can't begin to name them, and none of those changes were positive. I didn't personally lose anyone in those attacks, but I lost my city as I knew it, and I took it all very personally.

I've been following bin Laden's career in terrorism since early in the Clinton administration. He was responsible for a great many horrible crimes. I knew instantly that he was responsible for the attacks of 9/11 since they bore his signature style. Like many, I rolled my eyes at Bush Jr's cowboy rhetoric following the attack, ("You can run, but you can't hide." Remember?), but I actually expected him to follow through on that promise. Silly me.

I was disgusted and appalled when it became increasingly obvious over the next year that Bush had no intention of capturing Osama bin Laden, and was instead using our loss as a pretext to attack Iraq, a country that had never attacked us. Sure, Saddam Hussein was a bad guy, but he wasn't the bad guy who attacked us. That bad guy was laughing his ass off at us while we spent our resources and precious young lives chasing his sworn enemy, Saddam Hussein. And we looked like a bunch of ignorant bigots who couldn't tell one Arab from another. I saw the failure to capture bin Laden as a clear issue of criminal justice. I became increasingly horrified that my money was about to be used to wage an illegal and immoral war, so I did the only thing I could think of.

Almost a year and a half after 9/11 I put up a sign in front of my house. It was a day-counter that asked one simple question. This past Sunday night my sign read:

9 years, 232 days since 9/11/01

WHERE IS OSAMA BIN LADEN?

I changed the number on my sign every morning since the first day I put it up nearly 8 and 1/2 years ago. When I went on vacation, (or on an unexpected journey to the hospital after my recent accident), my wonderful neighbours changed the number for me. The sign had become sort of iconic in my funky artist's neighbourhood, and my neighbours were very supportive of the message.

My sign was both a vigil and a daily protest. I asked the question because no one else was asking. I counted the days because it was unconscionable to me that this criminal was at large for so long. I deliberately made the simplest sign possible because I had one important question, and I didn't want anything to distract from it. For the last 9 years and 232 days no one in the mainstream press or in the criminal Bush administration seemed to care very much about the answer.

The phone started ringing on Sunday night and it didn't stop for days. My wonderful neighbours helped me take my sign down on Monday morning. I had no idea at the time that it was about to become part of the mainstream media coverage of bin Laden. Some reporters called first, but many just showed up and knocked on my door. ALL DAY. And all day Tuesday, too. Interviews and pictures of my sign ended up in at least 6 newspapers including the NY Times, and some radio and television spots as well. I was sorely tempted to ask all those reporters where they had been for the last 9 years and 232 days, but I decided to stay on-point instead.

The recent accident that sent me to the hospital was quite serious, (18 broken bones including a shattered pelvis that needed 8 hours of surgery to rebuild), and I worked my butt off to get 'paroled' from the rehab facility on Saturday. Yay for me. DAMN, it's good to be home! I'm just so very glad that I was home in time to take my sign down on Monday morning. I think I would have chewed my arm off in frustration had I still been incarcerated in rehab. The really good thing that came out of all this is that my simple sign, with all it's cracks and peeling paint, is going to the permanent collection of the 9/11 Museum which will open in the basement of the new WTC in 2012.

(On a personal note, I have to say that I'm NOT AT ALL HAPPY to have had so many published pictures of me on crutches and wearing my hideous white plastic clamshell body brace and one unnaturally swollen thigh. Ugh.)

There's been a great deal of soul searching about what it means to rejoice over bin Laden's death. Some have been arguing that his demise makes no real difference. I wish more people would remember that this is about criminal justice. I don't celebrate in the streets when any other murderer is captured, and I have no illusions that taking one murderer off the street will end all crime. Criminal justice is about holding each person responsible for their crimes. The person who murdered 3,000 of my neighbours and changed my city forever is no longer at large. There will be other mass murderers, but this was about one man and his crimes. My question was answered. I'm happy to have been able to take down my sign.

Thank you so much for this post. And I hope you have a speedy recovery. This is an amazing story and the part about your neighbors is great.

[CherylNYC]

Thank you so much for this post. And I hope you have a speedy recovery. This is an amazing story and the part about your neighbors is great.

I feel very lucky to have such amazing neighbours. This part of NYC has recently become a popular destination, partly because of our reputation for being oddball artists likely to react creatively to events that affect us. Many of the marginal characters that give us such a strong flavor have not yet been driven out by gentrification. I so hope our new-found popularity doesn't unravel our remarkable community. Unfortunately, every time we're noted in the press, the social and economic pressure of gentrification gets ratcheted up yet another notch. Sigh.

Whoops! Derail over.

[Diavolo]

Cheryl, that was one of the best posts I've seen anywhere on the subject.

This stupid 24 hour news cycle we've adopted just exacerbates an already problematic situation. We, as a country, haven't educated the public and we don't even understand how badly it's affected our soul.

I spent a month working in the towers back in May 2001, but for the grace of God go I. I've studied the event, UBL and our reaction. I find this country's behavior lacking. We (as a country) thump Bibles but never actually read one. I spoke with a Jewish friend of mine about this yesterday and she had one of the best perspectives I've seen out here on the west coast. Full disclosure, she was born in Israel, raised in NYC and now lives in California. Her daughter lives in NYC today. She said no matter how heinous the crime, you cannot celebrate the death of another and leave your own soul intact. I think every thinking person can arrive at that same conclusion no matter their faith.

[EnderD_503]

Although I agree with the imperial nature the US has played all over the world and it is not something I am proud of- all Western nations have contributed to very disrespectful treatment of various regions and continue to.

While agree Western nations in general contributed, in this case I named the US in particular because of the role that nation has played in the Middle East (and worldwide) over the last few decades. Many other Western nations ride the line of imperialism, though it is no longer as prominent in other Western nations as it is in the US (as far as military action/intervention globally is concerned). I name the US in this instance because most Western powers were outright against the war in Iraq, but on the other hand supported the invasion of Afghanistan so they certainly are not wholely innocent.

What I find different though is the way other nations presented the invasion to the general population vs. the way the American people were addressed. For the Americans it seemed a blatant ideological war (or wars), while there was, as far as I have ever read, never any large degree of popular support for the "war on terror" in nations like Germany and France despite military participation in Afghanistan. I think it was also a media issue, in that there seems to be more diversity in information and perception presented by the media in other nations than the US, where it seems the mainstream media consistantly supported the war for many years (perhaps until recently). I think a big part of the problem is that the actions of the American government and military continue to act as an "us vs. them" issue for many Americans. It should have nothing to do with "othering" other nations and cultures the way many Americans do.

With Osama Bin Laden's death it continues to be presented as an "us vs. them." I have a big issue with that. When he was killed, I'm not sure I saw the British or the Spaniards reacting the same way as the Americans did, and while the death toll was not the same in those two nations, they did suffer attacks by fundamentalists.

PS- I did see your mention on the Western powers involvement in Libya (UN). Sometimes I wonder if a strong multi-country aliance could be built among just people- and have some effect on all of these countries. An internation aliance with an understanding of how we all contribute to these insane acts against other countries. I knmow, I'm an idealist.

Yes, and I do want to make sure people understand that I'm not ignoring the role European powers in particular are playing in Libya now. I am completely against Western involvement in Libya. I am not against people attempting to liberate themselves from oppression, however, I am deeply concerned that Libya is on its way to unseating Qaddafi only to replace him with the Muslim Brotherhood (already looking like they might come into power in Egypt)...which is much, much worse. Swapping one dictator for another makes no difference, whether the deposers latch themselves onto non-extremists attempting to free themselves of a previous dictator or not.

In many respects it feels like Osama and US support for extremist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan all over again, as though the West needs a new "demon" to fight and is in the process of creating one in Libya.

Overall, I have the same wish you do. I think that with social media like Twitter in particular it will become easier for people around the world to network and organize themselves into a coherent voice and social force more easily without the government middlemen interfering. Maybe that will make a difference, but again that may just be idealism.

As far as an international alliance, it is a pitty that Trotskyism is not as embraced as other forms of communism. I think the Trotskyist/ICL approach to creating that international community (albeit very small) fighting for the people as a whole without borders is excellent. If only it were on a larger scale.

P.S. sorry for snipping up your post :p

[BullDog]

Ender you make some good points, but all Americans have not reacted to the death of Bin Laden in the same way. You seem to be making some pretty big generalizations there.

[Toughy]

I thought Ender was talking about all those folks that were shown on CNN celebrating. I don't see the gross generalization other do.

Concerning celebrating the death of a mass murderer. Many folks in this country are revenge motivated and that's why they celebrated. Revenge was had........bin Laden shot in the head and dead. It's the same sort of revenge you see in the death penalty. An eye for an eye.....and we all end up blind.

I facilitate a group at the SF VA Medical Center....all veterans with 90% of them having been in combat (from Vietnam, Korea and up to today). I brought up bin Laden. Some folks might think a great cheer went up cuz we got him dead....after all this is a room full of combat warriors who wanted bin Laden dead....some had been in Afghanistan. There was silence and soft spokens words about justice. Someone even said he should have been captured and brought to trial in a US Federal Court .....not a military tribunal. S/he felt a civilian trial with a guilty verdict would in fact strengthen and show the US believes in it's Constitution and the rule of law. It really was basic police work that found him in that compound in Pakistan.

I personally don't think we can wage a war on terror with armies and drones and bombs. Terror is a tactic. To catch the leaders ordering this tactic requires good old fashioned boots on the ground police work. Police work and civilian courts brought justice with the first WTC bomber. I would expect the same thing can be repeated without killing people.

[Martina]

Re a previous post --

Public school education is not to blame for the ills of the world. Nor are teachers. It is harder to get credentialed than it has ever been. Coursework, testing and supervision are rigorous. Teachers are required to do a huge amount of professional development. And we are under more scrutiny and exposed to more criticism than ever before by groups who do not have a clue about what our working conditions are like.

And curriculum development? Huh? There are amazing curricula out there. The problem is right wing school boards and book publishers who pander to them. We are not the problem. We know our fields. We know our students. The people who think they know better are the problem.

Most teachers have Master's degrees. Many of us have more than one. It's not a career for idiots. And our students are not lacking in character. Young people are not the problem. Nor are the professionals, meaning fully credentialed ones, working with them. Why do people love to take potshots at teachers and young people? i do not understand why it is so gratifying. Maybe it relates to some fear. i do not know.

It is young people fighting these damned wars and dying in them, by the way. Often young people of color. They are not to be feared and despised. They are to be thanked.

Most of the people taking potshots at us would not be willing to spend an hour in my school with my students, much less dedicate their careers to working with them. And these are the kids most likely to go to the military and most likely to serve in dangerous areas.

[FlowerFem]

Obama said, "anyone who questions whether the terrist mastermind didn't desrve his fate needs their head examined." Ouch! Anyone in here know agood head examiner?

[atomiczombie]

Here's a GREAT article from Noam Chomsky about the killing of Bin Laden and how it broke all sorts of international laws. I just had to share it with you all.


The Revenge Killing of Osama bin Laden
Tuesday 31 May 2011
by: Noam Chomsky, Truthout


The May 1 U.S. attack on Osama bin Laden’s compound violated multiple elementary norms of in ternational law, beginning with the in vasion of Pakistani territory.

There appears to have been no attempt to apprehend the unarmed victim, as presumably could have been done by the 79 commandos facing almost no opposition.

President Obama announced that “justice has been done.” Many did not agree – even close allies. British barrister Geoffrey Robertson, who generally supported the operation, nevertheless described Obama’s claim as an “absurdity” that should have been obvious to a former professor of constitutional law.

Pakistani and international law require inquiry “whenever violent death occurs from government or police action,” Robertson points out. Obama undercut that possibility with a “hasty ‘burial at sea’ without a post mortem, as the law requires.”

“It was not always thus,” Robertson usefully reminds us, "When the time came to con sider the fate of men much more steeped in wickedness than Osama bin Laden – namely the Nazi leadership – the British government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture.

“President Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson (chief prosecutor at the Nuremberg trial) that summa ry execution ‘would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride ... the only course is to deter mine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear.”’

An other perspective on the attack comes in a report in The Atlantic by veteran Middle East and military correspondent Yochi Dreazen and colleagues. Citing a “senior U.S. official,” they conclude that the bin Laden killing was a planned assassination.

“For many at the Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency who had spent nearly a decade hunting bin Laden, killing the militant was a necessary and justified act of vengeance,” they write. Further more, “capturing bin Laden alive would have also presented the administration with an array of nettlesome legal and political challenges.”

They quote former West German Chancellor Helmut Schmidt, who commented that “the U.S. raid was ‘quite clearly a violation of international law’ and that bin Laden should have been detained and put on trial.”

They contrast Schmidt with U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, who “defended the decision to kill bin Laden al though he didn’t pose an immediate threat to the Navy SEALs,” and testified to Congress that the assault had been “lawful, legitimate and appropriate in every way.”

They observe further that the assassination is “the clearest illustration to date” of a crucial distinction between the Bush and Obama counter terror policies. Bush captured suspects and sent them to Guantanamo and other camps, with con sequences now well known. Obama’s policy is to kill suspects (along with “collateral damage”).

The roots of the revenge killing are deep. In the immediate aftermath of 9/11, the American desire for vengeance displaced concern for law or security.

In his book, “The Far Enemy,” Fawaz Gerges, a leading academic specialist on the jihadi movement, found that “the dominant response by jihadis to Sept. 11 is an ex plicit rejection of al-Qaida and total opposition to the internationalization of jihad ... Al-Qaida united all social forces (in the Muslim world) against its global jihad.”

The influential Lebanese cleric Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah sharply condemned al-Qaida’s 9/11 atrocities on priccipled grounds. “We must not punish in dividuals who have no relationship with the American administration or even those who have an indirect role,” he said.

Fadlallah was the target of a CIA-organized assassina tion operation in 1985, a huge truck bomb placed outside a mosque. He escaped, but 80 others were killed, mostly women and girls, as they left the mosque – one of those in numerable crimes that don’t enter the ann als of terror.

Subsequent U.S. actions, particularly the invasion of Iraq, gave new life to al-Qaida.

What are the likely consequences of the killing of bin Laden? For the Arab world, it will probably mean little. He had long been a fading presence, and in the past few months was eclipsed by the Arab Spring.

A fairly general perception in the Arab world is captured by the headline in a Lebanese newspaper: “The execution of bin Laden: A settling of accounts between killers.”

The most immediate and significant consequences are likely to be seen in Pakistan. There is much discussion of Washington’s anger that Pakistan didn’t turn over bin Laden. Less is said about the fury in Pakistan that the U.S. invaded their territory to carry out a political assassination.

Pakistan is the most dangerous country on Earth, with the fastest-growing nuclear arsenal. The revenge killing on Pakistani soil only stoked the anti-American fervor that had long been building. In his new book, “Pakistan: A Hard Country,” Anatol Lieven writes that “if the U.S. ever put Pakistani soldiers in a position where they felt that honor and patriotism required them to fight America, many would be very glad to do so.”

And if Pakistan collapsed, an “absolutely inevitable result would be the flow of large numbers of highly trained ex-soldiers, including explosive experts and engineers, to extremist groups.”

The primary threat is leakage of fissile materials to jihadi hands, a horrendous eventuality.

The Pakistani military has already been pushed to the edge by U.S. attacks on Pakistani sovereignty. One factor is the drone attacks in Pakistan that Obama escalated immediately after the killing of bin Laden, rubbing salt in the wounds.

But there is much more, including the demand that the Pakistani military cooperate in the U.S. war against the Afghan Taliban. The overwhelming majority of Pakistanis see the Taliban as fighting a just war of resistance against an invading army, according to Lieven.

The killing of bin Laden could have been the spark that set off a conflagration, with dire consequences, particularly if the invading force had been compelled to fight its way out, as was anticipated.

Perhaps the assassination was perceived as an “act of vengeance,” as Robertson concludes. Whatever the motive, it could hardly have been security.

© 2011 Noam Chomsky

What's really disturbing is how dangerous our relationship with Pakistan is already, and now we go and invade their country to commit murder. And our own CIA committed an act of terror by blowing up a mosque! Our government is as much of a terrorist as al Qaida. *shakes head*

[AtLast]

I thought Ender was talking about all those folks that were shown on CNN celebrating. I don't see the gross generalization other do.

Concerning celebrating the death of a mass murderer. Many folks in this country are revenge motivated and that's why they celebrated. Revenge was had........bin Laden shot in the head and dead. It's the same sort of revenge you see in the death penalty. An eye for an eye.....and we all end up blind.

I facilitate a group at the SF VA Medical Center....all veterans with 90% of them having been in combat (from Vietnam, Korea and up to today). I brought up bin Laden. Some folks might think a great cheer went up cuz we got him dead....after all this is a room full of combat warriors who wanted bin Laden dead....some had been in Afghanistan. There was silence and soft spokens words about justice. Someone even said he should have been captured and brought to trial in a US Federal Court .....not a military tribunal. S/he felt a civilian trial with a guilty verdict would in fact strengthen and show the US believes in it's Constitution and the rule of law. It really was basic police work that found him in that compound in Pakistan.

I personally don't think we can wage a war on terror with armies and drones and bombs. Terror is a tactic. To catch the leaders ordering this tactic requires good old fashioned boots on the ground police work. Police work and civilian courts brought justice with the first WTC bomber. I would expect the same thing can be repeated without killing people.

Your post reminds me of many of our Generals (one is Clin Powel's past comments) speaking about war. So many of the docs I have watched that focus on our individual troops in these wars always strike me in much the same way- the deep level of humanity of those that are out there trying to bridge relationships with the people in a country we are in on an everyday basis without shooting up small villages and towns.

Sometimes I see a huge disconnect between those that have been or are in the actual conflict and we at home that have never been there. Yes, I know there are shoot 'em up soldiers, but, so many seem to see how diplomacy would just go farther in bringing positive change- earning trust of the people that are in the middle of so much chaos and that have had any number of agressors throughout time in their backyards.

I view bin Laden as a sociopathic religious zealot with the same kind of charisma as people like Hitler. One like so many that has followers that have such desperate circumstances that I know I cannot begin to understand.