Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[AtLast]

A poll and place to discuss the role, if any of Pakistan's government or military having knowledge that bin Laden was living under their noses.

For a discussion of what this might mean for the future US relationship between the US and Pakistan if it turns out that Pakistan was harboring him.

What should, if anything the US do about the billions of dollars per year we give Pakistan?

Is this relationship helpful in building better relations with Islam at all and this part of the world? Or, is the US using Pakistan in some ways? Or, are we engaged with Pakistan because it has nuclear weapons and a negative relationship with India?

And any other points people want to bring up! It is a complex situation and grows even more complex with the US killing of bin Laden in Pakistan in a manner that some believe to be wrong- entering a sovereign nation to kill someone without permission to do so.

[girl_dee]

I can't think about all of this today but I have no doubt Pakistan knew he was there.

[Linus]

Why would they (the Pakistani gov't) announce on TV that they knew where Osama lived if they were working with the US to get him? I'm puzzled by that whole concept..

[Dutch Leonard]

Why would they (the Pakistani gov't) announce on TV that they knew where Osama lived if they were working with the US to get him? I'm puzzled by that whole concept..

If it wasn't out and out sympathy to his cause, then I think it was making a deal with the devil, if they let him alone, they wouldn't be targets of attacks. Once we did the dirty work, they can feign ignorance and outrage.

[rockybcn]

I believe they knew....but as all govts. its easier to turn a blind eye or deaf ear and play dumb when necessary. When your country is in economic crisis and you are being funded vast amounts of money from another country....well? They are a very close knit community and word spreads fast. They have found some of the biggest cells of terrorists reside here in Spain from Pakistan.
In Spain the Pakis are moving here in droves, they have the great opportunity to open small grocery stores and fruit markets and dont have to pay any taxes for 7 years....after that time,they sell it to another Paki and paying taxes becomes non existant.

[Glenn]

We just pissed the Pakis off today by killing 15 so far with drones on their border of Afganistan. They already warned US : No More Strikes INSIDE Pak. It should be interesting how this is played out. I'm also thinking are we acting quickly on info we received from the raid?

I also read this morning dated May 3, interesting article by Alex Jones at www.infowars.com/forget-pakistan-us-knew-bin-ladens-location-all-along/

[Andrew, Jr.]

I do feel the Pakistan gov't knew all along where OBL was living. The gov't ignored him, and let him hide in plain site just as long as they could get away with it. They were caught, and now with the evidence that our soldiers got from inside the OBL compound, it will be real interesting to see what is released for the world to see.

[NJFemmie]

They knew. You don't build a million dollar home and not know who's living in it.

[foxyshaman]

They knew. He was living in a posh neighborhood with the military elite. I think he outlived his usefulness, the Pak gov't neeeded something from the US and voila... oh look here he is.

I don't believe they could have carried out an airstrike in that region without the permission of the Pak gov't, or their assistance.

They knew.

[EnderD_503]

We just pissed the Pakis off today by killing 15 so far with drones on their border of Afganistan. They already warned US : No More Strikes INSIDE Pak. It should be interesting how this is played out. I'm also thinking are we acting quickly on info we received from the raid?

I also read this morning dated May 3, interesting article by Alex Jones at www.infowars.com/forget-pakistan-us-knew-bin-ladens-location-all-along/

Seriously? Honestly think using these kinds of slurs are disrespectful and only continues to widen the void.

As for the topic question...I guess I don't really care if they knew or not. If they did know, it was pretty convenient for George W to go and start an illegal war in Iraq as an extension of the supposed "war on terror." If the Pakistani gov't knew, then the American government likely knew as well...but then they wouldn't have been able to justify the unlawful invasion of Iraq if they'd killed him ten years ago.

And no I'm not dipping my toes into conspiracy theory here, just saying that it was pretty convenient to "not know" as far as starting a war that was more about imperialism than anything else.

Also wanted to add that I think the fact that many Pakistanis are irritated by what some see as disregard for Pakistan's sovereignty by the US is more of an issue on how US-Pakistani relations will look in the future than this.

[Legendryder]

Well, I say if Pakistan is so angry with us, we withdraw our support and leave. See how quickly they change their tune.

[EnderD_503]

Well, I say if Pakistan is so angry with us, we withdraw our support and leave. See how quickly they change their tune.

I'm really not sure they would change it. American nationalists seem to take this stance with anyone they provide aid to who dares to question them. "Our way or the highway." Yet rarely does their aid do much to help the general population to begin with. It's this kind of pompous, arrogant behaviour the rest of the world detests so much. But I suppose some people like to reinforce stereotypes...

[Legendryder]

You are correct. I am an American. It is my birthright to be pompus. So there.

[Rockinonahigh]

I woill bet a dollar to a donut that they knew he was there and just waiting to use /give that info to the usa when the time was right.To build this strong hold in the middle of a posh neighborhood not that far from a millitary school ..come on nobody an be so stupid as not to know.

[Semantics]

I'm really not sure they would change it. American nationalists seem to take this stance with anyone they provide aid to who dares to question them. "Our way or the highway." Yet rarely does their aid do much to help the general population to begin with. It's this kind of pompous, arrogant behaviour the rest of the world detests so much. But I suppose some people like to reinforce stereotypes...

Exactly.

As a United States citizen I personally find the displays of self-importance embarrassing.

You are correct. I am an American. It is my birthright to be pompus. So there.

This attitude is a great example of what's wrong with society in this country. If you want to believe that being born entitles you to be irritatingly grand and self-important (http://www.google.com/search?q=pompous&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7#hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&q=pompous&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=-yfETd6pCYXpgQeR4PXLBA&ved=0CCUQkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=9c17e529bf934417), I'd like to suggest that you set loftier goals for yourself.

[Legendryder]

Isn't it great to be an American? You can have your opinion, I can have mine. Unlike Iraq under Sadam where saying what you think got you beaten, shot and tossed into a mass grave. Or just being born Kurdish got you planes flying over dropping mustard gas killing your entire family. My point is, America supports many countries around the world. We have the biggest stick. Good for us. I say if these countries that we are supporting do not like our politics, go to hell. They know what they are getting into. They come to us with their hand out, then want to complain? Pfffff.

[Glenn]

[QUOTE=EnderD_503;333923] it was pretty convenient to "not know" as far as starting a war that was more about imperialism than anything else.

Blaming my country isn't part of the solution either. Moslem radicals have attacked soo many other countries that don't even have any troops there. It's more complicated than imperialism vs. 3rd world underdog.

[rockybcn]

I can tell you this.....there is something brewing in the air last few days...and it isnt coffee! The Pakis here have been congregating more than usual in my barrio. There seems to be some anger or frustration and they have been loud and demonstrative against some people. It died down after awhile because it was drawing too much attention. Today I was out walking my dog and two Pakis were approaching from the other direction. The one deliberately plowed into my shoulder. It didnt phase me but it sent him off kilter and that was a humiliation I am sure!!!! He yelled a profanity my way but I never looked back. It wouldnt surprise me if there is more anti american sentiment that takes place here in Spain.

[Words]

I cannot believe some of the shit that I'm reading here.

I used to think that some Americans were just naive. Now I realize that they're not naive at all, they're just ignorant. (Same applies to us Brits before anyone goes accusing me of picking on 'you Yanks', though in my opinion, to a much lesser degree). Offensive? Good. I want to offend you. I want you to KNOW what those 'Pakis' must feel like though, on a scale of one to ten in terms of offensiveness, I'd reckon that 'you Yanks' are getting off pretty lightly.

This thread makes my stomach churn. Just like it churned earlier today when I read about the women and children that were killed in the attack on the Pakistan border. Or don't Afghani/Paki women and children count? No of course they don't. Same way that Bin Laden's wife and children didn't count when the US shot BL's brains out in front of them. Same way all those Iraqi children and women didn't count when the West put monetary interest ahead of the human rights of those they claimed to be protecting (pleeeeeease). And those Palestinian children and women, you know, the ones the world conveniently forgot. And ALL those women and children whose lives don't count because, after all, we had to prove a point because, well, that is what we do.

And you wonder why the Muslims have no respect for the USA? Amazing.

Words

[Words]

And what's with people THANKING those using the word Paki in their posts?

REALLY?

[rockybcn]

And what's with people THANKING those using the word Paki in their posts?

REALLY?

For me the word Paki...is only a shortening of the word. I didnt use it to be disrespectful AT ALL...sorry if I offended anyone.Its just shorter to write out. In fact,...if you knew me you would know I am a peacemaker,not a warrior. I am opposed to all war and all murdering. When people were celebrating Osamas death..I was appalled. Murder is never something to celebrate. Yes,he got his justice. You live by the sword,you die by the sword. But never is it something to celebrate. It saddens me that innocent people have lost their lives because of this. I just know that most likely many more lives will be lost in retaliation. The rage in some men and women can be brutal when they have been threatened.

[Gayla]

I admit that the use of "Paki" threw me off. It's not something I've seen before so I had to google. I understand shorting things is sometimes easier but everything I found said it's pretty much a racial slur. Most of what I saw was in reference to it's use in the UK, so I get that it may be different for other countries but it just "sounds" offensive to me, if that makes sense.

[Semantics]

Isn't it great to be an American? You can have your opinion, I can have mine. Unlike Iraq under Sadam where saying what you think got you beaten, shot and tossed into a mass grave. Or just being born Kurdish got you planes flying over dropping mustard gas killing your entire family. My point is, America supports many countries around the world. We have the biggest stick. Good for us. I say if these countries that we are supporting do not like our politics, go to hell. They know what they are getting into. They come to us with their hand out, then want to complain? Pfffff.

Do you know where the "big stick" reference originated? Roosevelt didn't make it up but he made it famous, and the entire phrase is "speak softly and carry a big stick".

Let's not forget the speak softly part because it's just as important.

Let's also not forget that we go to other countries with our hands out. This thread is about Pakistan so I'll use them as an example. We may give them money but we don't give it away for free. We use their airspace. We use their resources. We use their intelligence. We use them, period.

Are they always loyal to us? I doubt it. Did they know Osama bin Laden was there? It appears they probably did.

The question is: so what? I've heard global politics called a giant chessboard and I find that analogy inaccurate. In chess there are two colors, black and white, and the pieces are 100% your friend or 100% your enemy.
Sometimes we have to be satisfied with someone being our ally some of the time because it's better than none of the time.

[Martina]

And what's with people THANKING those using the word Paki in their posts?

REALLY?

Honestly i was one of them. i saw where he/she was jostled. Felt sorry for them. i withdrew it when i reread. i still read more fear than hatred there.

Words, you have lived places where there were daily conflicts and hostilities between immigrants and others. This is less the case in the U.S. A friend of mine immigrated from Egypt and attends Mosque in Oakland. He did not come here because he always wanted to live in the U.S. or for economic reasons. He lost ground economically. He came here for a girl. :)

True he is living in the Bay Area, but he and his fellow immigrants are stunned by the lack of personal hostility they experience compared to being in Europe, for example.

i have lived somewhere where darker skinned immigrants habitually get picked up by the police for no reason and are exposed to other forms of racism. But day in and day out, we do not have communities detesting each other and taking frequent opportunities to express it.

i think of Hamtramck in Michigan. There is some hostility between the Arabs and the white Detroiters. There have been battles over noise made by the Muezzin calls from Mosques. And i have no doubt many residents have racism and hatred in their hearts. But walking down the street, is anyone going to get jostled by anyone? Are there frequent racial slurs hurled? Is there vandalism of other people's property? No. On a daily basis, an Arab neighbor helps an aging Polish woman to take out her garbage. The Polish woman watches the Arab neighbor's kids as they get off the bus to make sure they get home OK, etc.

The U.S. is a violent country. We are racist. We are backward in some ways compared to Europeans. We do have a long way to go re immigrants and immigration. Witness the town where the police tried to get rid of all Latinos. Witness the recent legislation in Arizona. There are hositilites in some communities. But the cultural racism so common is Europe is not the norm here. Not in a million years would we ban wearing the veil. And in communities where people see it alot, most people don't give it a second thought. (Thinking again of Detroit). And i don't doubt the vast majority of people would fight for people's rights to wear whatever garb their culture and religion required of them. i do not see Americans through rose colored glasses. We elected Bush twice. We are intensely racist in our way. But our way is different from Europe's. And in some ways it is less hostile toward people for being who they are.

Maybe it's our ignorance and happy wappy nature. But when we encounter an Egyptian, we don't necessarily assume we know who he is and what he is about. We are not closed off to meeting him where he is and getting to know what he has to say. We care if he's happy here. We want him to feel at home. Most of us do. And that IS different than the experience of an Egyptian immigrant to Germany or France.

[EnderD_503]

I admit that the use of "Paki" threw me off. It's not something I've seen before so I had to google. I understand shorting things is sometimes easier but everything I found said it's pretty much a racial slur. Most of what I saw was in reference to it's use in the UK, so I get that it may be different for other countries but it just "sounds" offensive to me, if that makes sense.

I don't think I've ever heard "Paki" as a British-only racial slur. It's commonly used here as well and I find it hard to believe that those who used it were completely unaware that it's a racial slur against Pakistanis and other South Asians. Especially in the extremely negative and derogatory context it was used in.

It's just as much a slur and just as offensive as using other supposedly oh so convenient shortenings of ethnicities/nationalities like "jap" and "spic."

[Kobi]

It's very difficult to come to reasonable conclusions in matters
like this considering the level of misinformation, outright lies,
distortions of truth, and the economics which give impetus to many
of the odd decsions that are being made by our leadership over the
past few administrations.

Politics and economics make for strange bedfellows. Yet what one
must say or do publicly vs what one says and does behind closed
doors can give rise to erroneous beliefs and emotions in the people
leaders are supposed to be helping, protecting, liberating, etc. and
in us as citizens of the USA.

Who can say with any degree of certainty who are our allies and who are our enemies.....today.....
because it can change tomorrow. For the "war on terror", if there ever was one, to continue,
leaders have to continue to promote those things which provide the fuel
for it ....hatred, mistrust, negative imagery, the ever-changing line up of bad guys/countries, fear etc.

It is a vicious circle and cycle that we are involved in....we meaning the world.
And it is not going to be solved with the death of one person, or
a change of leadership, or by bombings, or by bravado, or by blaming.

We have had an odd association with Pakistan for a long time. Yet,
Pakistan is the newest source of cheap labor for American manufacturers.
I didnt know that until I bought some clothing and noticed the
"Made in Pakistan" label. So, we are exploiting another improverished people.
Yet, in exploiting them, we are also helping them. Economics is a very
powerful motivator and a double edged sword.

And, I, for one, am very disappointed in the way Obama and his administration handled this.
How it was handled was what I expected from Bush/Cheney not Obama.

And that was a long winded way of saying, I would be hard pressed to believe Pakistan
didnt know where Osama was. But, it is certainly politically advantageous
to all parties that it unfolded in a certain way.

And, considering what the USA has done in Iraq, Afganistan, Libya,
and now Pakistan, I would expect the Pakistani people from all parts
of the world to be a little concerned about what comes next. And,
I would expect they would feel threatened, regardless of where they
are, for their own safety.

As for us Americans....time to stop buying into all the bullshit that
is handed to use on silver platters. And time to hold our leaders
accountable for the crap they are doing in the name of freedom.

[Apocalipstic]

The house they keep showing on TV and pictures does not look like a million dollar home...did it before the Seals? Is Pakistan way expensive?

Did the Pakistani government know? I have no idea. Probably some members of gvt did, but that does not mean the leadership did, if it is anything like what goes on in the US.

Words, the US is split pretty much down the middle on this and most subjects. :praying:

Detroit seems pretty racist to me not just with Arabs.

There are many Muslim US citizens.

I am sick about all the civilians the US military has killed and am not sure how to mentally process the US's continued meddling (ie killing) outside the US.

[Rope]

I believe that it took this long to work out a deal with the Pakistani government, yes, they knew. The deal being how much money was the U.S. going to pay them. Hillary was over there visiting for some reason...

Yeah, Americans be a little sensitive to the racial slurs. I've told foreign students for years that the best way to learn English is to be LIKE an American but they certainly didn't have to BECOME an American.

Rope--

[Martina]

Detroit seems pretty racist to me not just with Arabs.

There are many Muslim US citizens.


Detroit is as racist as any other U.S. city.

i can say i have never felt seriously out of place in African American neighborhoods in Detroit -- unlike in Boston and Chicago. Detroit is a mess. It is a dying city. But it is amazingly and bizarrely creative. It is not the worst city in America to live in despite what you read in the news. It may be in the worst mess in a number of ways. Racism -- white flight -- is responsible for a great deal of that. But it is not defined by racism or poverty or any of that. In some ways, it is one of my favorite places on earth. i miss it.

By the way -- Detroit has the largest concentration of Arabs outside of the Middle East.

Most of us here do not have a clue what it is like to live in a European city where there is that kind of daily anger and hostility in the air between strangers of different ethnic groups. Rocky is an American living there. My sense is he is fairly shocked by it. He does seem to have taken some of the racist attitudes to heart -- the tax comment. But it's really easy for us to preach when we aren't living it. How many people have lived among Arabs and worked with them daily and lived side by side? i have. And there was no hint of the anger and hostility so common in France and Germany. My friend from Egypt reports the same experience from the other position -- as an Arab immigrant.

Since 911 it has gotten much worse for Arabs living here. But it's still a real life, a life with a future. It is not a life lived as a permanent outsider in your own home. That is true for many Arabs living in France.

i am not here to defend the U.S. re racism or its treatment of immigrants. i teach Latino students, and one of my students is living alone at 17 because her parents got caught in a raid and were deported. She has a kidney condition, and it has been hard to get her medical care. (It happened.) i have no illusions about how little American values people it deems outsiders. But i also know that the facts are that it is a different experience to live in European cities. There is a lot of intepersonal hostility. Much more of an effort by the nations themselves to disenfranchise even the native born children of immigrants. It's just a fact, not a defense of U.S. culture or policy.

[Strappie]

We just pissed the Pakis off today by killing 15 so far with drones on their border of Afganistan. They already warned US : No More Strikes INSIDE Pak. It should be interesting how this is played out. I'm also thinking are we acting quickly on info we received from the raid?

I also read this morning dated May 3, interesting article by Alex Jones at www.infowars.com/forget-pakistan-us-knew-bin-ladens-location-all-along/

So it's okay for people to use Pak?? God I hope we don't start using the N word.. cause I will RUN as fast as I can from this site.

I find this completely OFFENSIVE!

[Toughy]

We just pissed the Pakis off today by killing 15 so far with drones on their border of Afganistan. They already warned US : No More Strikes INSIDE Pak. It should be interesting how this is played out. I'm also thinking are we acting quickly on info we received from the raid?

I also read this morning dated May 3, interesting article by Alex Jones at www.infowars.com/forget-pakistan-us-knew-bin-ladens-location-all-along/


Ignorance abounds.........

by the way..........Alex Jones is an ultra-right wing idealogue and a conspiracy junkie...........why in the hell would anyone read his lies????

[Toughy]

Did the Pakistan government know where bin Laden was hiding ..............shrug...........maybe some folks in the government did and some didn't.

Did we violate Pakistan's ground and airspace? We have been bombing the Pakistan/Afghanistan border for months now with the permission of Pakistan. President Obama publicly said we would go in and get bin Laden and he said it often.

I'm completely sure Pakistan officials knew we would send in a team at any time to get him if we knew where he was.

It's a moot point as far as I am concerned. The thing that is good is that we didn't bomb the fuck out of the area his compound was located and created lots of civilian casualities, no intelligence/information, and possibly not killing him. This was quick, clean....in and out with minimal damage and lots of intelligience/infomation found.

Concerning one of bin Laden's wives and child(ren) seeing him get a part of his head blown off. The wife knew what could happen if she lived with him. She did not have to be there, nor did the children. I'm not likely to shed a tear or have a second thought about her seeing him get killed.

[AtLast]

Are we at war with Pakistan? No.

Why are we flying drones over their country and killing innocent civilians? Does it make it okay because they are "different" than "us" (White citizens of the US).

We would all be outraged, I am sure if our family members who went to work every day and were just trying to survive and raise their kids were killed by a bomb while sleeping, eating dinner or having family time.

They are human beings, just like "us". They are not "Terrorists" they deserve to raise their families in peace.

This LUMPING together of entire nations and religions as Terrorists is so disgusting to me. I know it must make it easier for some folks to wrap their heads around what the US is doing, but it's false.

Does anyone who posts here really think that all Muslims are terrorists? Do you have the balls/ovaries to state it here plainly rather than wrapping it up in a pretty package of excuses and regurgitated propagandist pablum?

And talking about the tax structure in Spain as a way to promote bigotry, Rocky? As though everyone from Pakistan is immigrating to Spain in order to "stick it to them". If I am not mistaken, you're an immigrant there too, right? I believe we had that conversation over dinner one night a few years ago before you left to be with the woman you loved. Is that any different than people moving there to join their families and loved ones? If so, tell me why.

The USA was built over the backs of indigenous peoples and on the backs of "imported" slaves (They didn't have the privilege to immigrate or not).

I am always astounded that "we" forget that bit of history. The Europeans who came here were for the most part escaping religious persecution or seeking a way out of a feudal system that would never allow them to be successful. I'll bet a lot of them started out with fruit stands too. Was it okay for them to do it because they were white?

When I visited Germany a few years ago, one of my sons friends went on a rant about the "Turks" People from Turkey who had been actively recruited for cheap labor to rebuild the country after the war. Guess what? They stayed and built families and communities there. Now that the work is done, the white Germans don't want them anymore and feel resentful that they stayed in "their" country.

Kind of like we did with the "imported" Chinese people (often stolen in the middle of the night and brought here by force) who built our railroads for extremely meager or no wages. They also stayed here and built families and communities and suffered the same kind of racism that is facing the Turkish people in Germany, even though many of them are now 2nd and 3rd generation Germans.

I don't see the difference between two men who happen to also be of Pakistani descent walking by you and elbowing you or two men in a big truck covered with Confederate Flags and bumper stickers proclaiming "Never apologize for being white" who would also elbow you or worse if they happened to pass you on the street and pegged you for Queer or "Other". Bad and bigoted people come in all races and religions.


Let's start with treaties throughout US history with Native American peoples, Chinese Exclusionary Acts, Alien Enemies Act.....

In terms of Pakistan and Osama bin Laden- I really have no idea who knew and when. What I do care very much about is what this all means in terms of our (speaking as being from the US) how parts of the world view us.

I agree (think Toughy brought into context) that Pakistan could not be under any illusions that the US would act if bin Laden was within our sights.

I haven't felt any jubilation about this because to be honest, I am tired of daily reports of someone being killed in the world due to a connection to 9/11- from troops to civilians. I see no reason for gloating.

We have a very tense relationship with Pakistan as well as the entire Muslim and Arab world. My hope when Obama was elected was that maybe, just maybe we would have a president that could at least get us going in the direction of mending fences with these countries and people. On the other hand, Obama did exactly what he said he would do- if we had bin Laden in our sights in Pakistan, he would order taking him out. So, maybe I had my head up my rear. Or, was naive. On the other hand, many in the countries so troubled with US interventions are sending kudos our way. What is to be made of this?

News today points toward more violence.... more violence and killing. I do think that terror cells will retaliate. Although, their goals have not changed since before 9/11.

I could become jubilant if I could have hope that we are headed to a place in which the killing stops. I don’t see this happening

[EnderD_503]

Most of us here do not have a clue what it is like to live in a European city where there is that kind of daily anger and hostility in the air between strangers of different ethnic groups. Rocky is an American living there. My sense is he is fairly shocked by it. He does seem to have taken some of the racist attitudes to heart -- the tax comment. But it's really easy for us to preach when we aren't living it. How many people have lived among Arabs and worked with them daily and lived side by side? i have. And there was no hint of the anger and hostility so common in France and Germany. My friend from Egypt reports the same experience from the other position -- as an Arab immigrant.

Since 911 it has gotten much worse for Arabs living here. But it's still a real life, a life with a future. It is not a life lived as a permanent outsider in your own home. That is true for many Arabs living in France.

I think this post is a bit extreme when it comes to portraying the life of immigrants as a whole in Western and Central Europe (Eastern Europe is a different matter altogether) in comparison to what they face in North America, particularly where you describe daily anger and hostility. I am both a Canadian and European citizen and have lived in Bavaria, one of the more conservative regions of Germany (though when you compare it to the conservatism I've witnessed in North America, it's not really comparable) and found that the experiences of the many immigrants I knew there were pretty diverse.

At one point I worked at a small café where I worked and lived along side a Polish woman and a Slovenian woman. One was my age (20/21 at the time) and the other a few years older. Both women had been migrant workers at this same place for a few years before I got there, and were doing it to make money to bring back home. They were being exploited as much as any migrant worker in North America is.

At the same time I was acquainted with a Bulgarian guy also in his 20's who had started off a migrant worker, but eventually came to own his own internet café/movie rental place and was going to school as well. There is still stigma toward Eastern Europeans in Germany because of German/Polish history in particular, which is slowly but surely changing. And that is the issue primary issue in Europe: centuries of history. And that is one issue that straints German/Turkish relations, the history of both nations during the last century, as well as foreign (particularly American) intervention in Turkish/German relations throughout the last century.

On the other hand, I was friends with a Peruvian guy who moved to Germany for a better life since his father lived there, but his father ended up refusing to help him out in getting started, so he had to learn German on his own and found it hard to get out of low wage restaurant jobs. Whereas a Brazilian guy I was acquainted with came to Germany on a visa and within four years was working for the Volksbank. It all depends.

But the stigma toward these migrant workers and their situation and opportunties are not really different from what migrant workers face in the US and, increasing more recently with our wonderful PM, Canada. Also, I think the public is more aware of the plight of migrant workers in Germany than in Canada, for example, which is one of the positives about Germany: generally more socio-political awareness and activism.

When comparing the lives of migrant workers and the opportunities available to them with those of German-born youth of Turkish or other non-German ethnicities, I would say that the latter have far more opportunities. Certainly it was extremely difficult for their parents and the older generations who did not have citizenship as a whole and who faced a lot of discrimination, but for young people things are much easier and they are far more accepted in German society than their parents were, probably because the attitudes of young Germans have also changed a lot over the years.

I think part of it has to do with how the education and health care systems function in Germany, the Benelux and Northern Europe. As citizens they have the same access to universal health care and cheap to free post-secondary education (and as time goes on, more and more gain access to it by finishing secondary school), which provides them with better futures regardless of the socio-economic standing their parents held. I'd say in that respect they have more available to them than many North Americans. Older immigrant generations have a tendency to either alienate themselves or be alienated in society, in a similar way that many older immigrant groups in North America do, whereas their children typically feel as much a citizen as anyone else (unless it's the World Cup :p). On that topic, the prominence of German-born athletes of Turkish descent has probably helped things over the years. Footballers like Mesul Özl and Hamut Altintop, or half-German half-Spanish footballers like Mario Gomez are as beloved as other football stars of ethnic German descent. Just look at the way both Özl and Müller were equally praised rookies for their performances. Then compare them to Eastern Europeans playing for German teams...there are not many, and those who do are usually of German descent/Germans that immigrated to the East in past centuries and either expulsed during the Soviet years or returning after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

I'm not aware of efforts by the government to disenfranchise German-born youth of Turkish descent, but feel free to go into detail. There was the problem over a decade ago with gaining German citizenship (requiring at least one German parent even if the child of immigrants was born in German), but that was changed a while ago so that the children of immigrants gain citizenship.

That isn't to say there aren't some people who are hostile towards Turks or Germans of Turkish descent...but whether it is "worse" than in North America is rather debatable. Comparing the treatment of Turkish migrant workers to Mexican and Central/South American migrant workers or migrant workers anywhere there is not much difference. In my opinion what you've written is an exaggeration of the hostility of the average German towards those of Turkish descent.

If you want to talk about systematic discrimination against a given group, the Roma are a far better example...very similar to how First Nations peoples are treated throughout North and South America, except that because the Roma have no "claim to the land" the way First Nations do, they are frequently deported and berated.

If I were to rate German acceptance of those of foreign descent it would be less accepting than Canadian or Dutch urban areas, but generally more tolerant than what I've seen expressed by many American news sources and from what I've experienced as far as many (not all) American sentiments towards the "unAmerican." When it comes to public and media response to the "threat of terrorism" it was far less frantic, paranoid and prejudice than the American media like CNN and Fox...that much was fairly evident. I would also add that I see Germans and the German government as more accepting than France in general.

But there is still probably more distrust of Eastern European Slavs and Roma than other groups, I would say.

[EnderD_503]

I also wanted to note that when discussing Europe it's important to distinguish which laws affect which nations. France banned the niqab, but this was not an EU-wide ban by any means. Québec did so as well in certain public spheres.

Before that there was outrage that they were banned from schools, but all religious clothing/symbols are banned from French schools (including Christian crosses). Secularism is a prominent part of French culture, and on the one hand I can see the concerns raised by some in French society over the discrimination of women that demands women wear burqas or niqabs.

Personally, I outright oppose the ban, not because of issues of "religious freedom," (admittedly I view religion as a largely oppressive force) but simply because it only perpetuates the alienation of victims rather than educating them and punishing their oppressors, and those women will be less likely to educate themselves or gain employment. The ban attacks the symptom instead of the cause. Secularism must be the result of education in the case of remnants of oppressive religious-based traditions.

Interesting article on the mixed views throughout the Muslim community:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2009/10/08/canada-muslim-burka-niqb-ban-government.html

[Martina]

i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences.

i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized.

i think if you talk to ordinary Americans about difference you get a view that may not agree with the impression you get if you live among them. People aren't educated. They are prejudiced and often racist.

How they treat their neighbors often does not always reflect that. And that is what i have seen in Detroit, particularly in East Dearborn.

[EnderD_503]

i am basing it mostly on what Arabs have told me about living France and to a lesser degree on a series of articles i read in the Times a while ago. Films too --- showing harrassment in schools. i read a lot about France. i haven't been in years, and i have only been as a tourist. i have never lived there. God, i have read and heard about Arab families, admittedly from North Africa, who three generations later are not much more integrated into French society than their parents. Arabs in Detroit are diverse, but most are more educated than many of the immigrants to France have historically been. So that explains some differences.

Yeah, France is a bit of a different issue, unfortunately.

i was thinking about the one parent has to be German issue you mentioned. i guess that was longer ago than i realized.

I think they changed that in 2000. Now anyone born in Germany automatically receives German citizenship regardless of their parents nationalities. Also, residents not born in Germany can apply for citizenship after residing there for 6-7 years if I remember right, but unless they have a German parent they cannot hold dual citizenship so it requires that they give up their previous citizenship.

[BullDog]

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead. :|

[AtLast]

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead. :|






Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

[BullDog]

I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead.

[rockybcn]

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

We live in a country (USA) where we have certain freedoms and privileges. We dont always understand the mindset of what other cultures and religions uphold as more important. We have generations of people that were forced to marry or in prearranged marriages because it was necessary for financial or religious reasons. We now have the luxury of choosing our lifemates because we fall in love or we want someone to provide us a good lifestyle,or for whatever our reasons...it is ours to choose. I got to know a Pakistani man here in my barrio that I respect completely. His marriage was prearranged and he just had his 3rd child last year. He has been married to his wife for 15 years. He showed me pictures of the family and he appeared proud of his children. I asked him about his prearranged marriage and having been with his wife that long I asked him when he had fallen in love with her. He looked at me strangely and said...."I dont know about love,I have no feelings that way. When I go home to visit my family every two years, I have my own private quarters in the house. I am there to have my needs taken care of and see to it that the children will one day be the providers of the family." The families all live together in one huge home,brothers and their wives and children,parents,grandparents. It is the duty of the first born son to provide for the whole extended family. Ali is the third born son,he had to take on this responsibility because the first and second son were both handicapped. But he takes it with great pride. He has spent more time away from his family than with. So I guess its like that old song of Tina Turner...Whats love got to do with it? Bin Laden, I am sure knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later... and what better way to show his family the greatest reward than the afterlife, with him....the martyr. Maybe this was the only way he knew for showing his family a love greater than anything he was capable of giving?

[Martina]

We don't know anything about his relationships. Assuming it was exploitative reads like cultural stereotyping.

[Chancie]

I find the posting of this thread to be completely shit stirring.

I know that many people, all over the world, are fascinated by recent events,

And I know that there are members here who follow serious news,

What interest is served by a question that is deliberately written to incite controversial stand taking?

I just turned 50, and apparently I'm taking a public stand against folks inciting drama.

[Glenn]

Rockybcn; Bin Ladin was'nt a martyr. What martyr cowers behind his wife? Ghandi was a martyr! Ghandi predicted that Pakistan and India would be at war. His prophesy was 4 wars to be exact. "Each one being worse than the previous". Ghandi even was willing to give up his entire cabinet including Nehru for a Moslem cabinet to keep India united because the Hindu's out-numbered the Moslems.

[Glenn]

Folks; I just heard the Telegraph news say that Osama Bin Laden DID NOT cower behind his wife, nor use her as a shield like some cowards.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow, I have gotten to post #26 and I had to stop and take a deep breath because I will be 100% honest with you all today, I am sick to my stomach, physically want to throw up sick after reading members of this community use racial slurs such as what's been used.

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

Why is it, that a white human being thinks they are entitled to so much space? Why can't I have the same kind of safe space, the same kind of consideration?

Why is it, that if a POC continues to ask white members of this community to refer to us as this and not this, white members of this community do not listen?

Why is it that white members of this community think they can continue to use racial slurs, tell us (POC) what we can and can't be called, and why is it that no matter how much anyone points it out it continues?

I'm angry, sad, and DISGUSTED and I've only reached post # 26 at all the racism that has been displayed.

[EnderD_503]

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

I'd like to address this, since it was directed towards me. I can understand why you are upset and rightfully so, and actually I did stop and think whether to post the slurs in their full spelling. I'm sorry that you were upset by it, but I would like to explain my reasoning.

The reason I chose to do so is this: Two people in this thread saw fit to shorten the word Pakistani, which is a well known racial slur for South Asians. I was fairly shocked at seeing people throwing the word around as though it were appropriately interchangeable with "Pakistani" and not even mods seemed phased by the use of that slur despite that in the past this forum has been anti-racist.

And that is why I chose to type out its equivalent among other ethnicities in full: Because it should be shocking to everyone, and just as shocking as terms that I've seen more people here averse to using. There should not be a racial hierarchy any more than there should be a gender hierarchy. It is not "more ok" to use derogatory terms for Pakistanis than it is to use them for the Japanese, Chinese or those who hail from Central and South America. I get the impression that those who used those terms still do not understand that they are on par with the terms I used.

Btw, the reason I put them in quotations was because I was not referring to the people that some use them to refer to, but referring to the slurs themselves as a way of pointing out how inappropriate and shocking it should be to use the Pakistani equivalent, and that calling Pakistanis derogatory terms is EXACTLY on par with the two slurs I used to make my point (and hopefully you did at least see my point). And that is exactly what the post said: that it was just as offensive as those words...so if people are barely going to bat an eye at someone using racial slurs towards Pakistanis, then maybe they need to think about what their reaction might be if the posters had used other slurs.

So please, by all means continue to be disgusted and horrified. In fact, everyone should be, and if you choose to feel that way about me, by all means do so if it means people are going to wake up and realise that South Asians and Arabs are human beings as well and by no means "fair game" for racial slurs just because certain governments and medias wage war on them.

As for my supposed "evolved" state...well, hopefully at least now I've dispelled that thought from your mind. I'm certainly no more or less evolved than any other human being, and this isn't any attempt at false modesty. If this is what you think of me then I'd like to say that I'm a pretty pathetic human being in most cases with little ability to interact with people without turning into a nervous wreck, whether I tend to be a long-winded nervous wreck or not. I thought I'd just add this because I really don't hold any lofty illusions about myself, in fact quite the opposite and I'm just as fallible as anyone else. Perhaps I should have censored those slurs and perhaps it was a mistake not to, but hopefully you can understand why I thought it necessary at the time considering that few actually seemed to be shocked at all by the racial slur for Pakistanis used on the first page by popcorninthesofa and rocky. I thought people should have been shocked by it as much as any other, but perhaps I went about displaying why they should be shocked in the wrong way. Things are always easier in retrospect.

Cheers,

Ender

[The_Lady_Snow]

With all due respect Ender, that is not your word to use, you don't own those words, you certainly do not live them or have to bear them, so using them as an example doesn't make it any better, if you wanted to make a point you could of very easily by explaining without using a word or offering an explanation as you did AFTER the fact. It's harmful, being now that you use them I guarantee some other ass hat will too since *you* thought you could, and YOU can't you are white.... This is what is tiring when a white person still continues to give me an excuse and validation to why they used them, you can't so don't please.

[Toughy]

Snow............

Several times in various places on this forum, you (and only you) have suggested it's inappropriate for white folks to use the terms 'red', 'brown', 'yellow' and 'black'. If that is true, why is it ok for you to use the term 'white'? You are not white, so why should you get to use that term? At least that is how I understand your logic.

Just to be clear, I don't give two shits if you call me white, of European descent, honkey, whitey or any other version or slur about white folks. I just don't like what looks and feels like a hypocritical stance. I don't think that is your intention, but it sure looks and feels that way to me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Toughy AREN'T you assuming I'm not white? or that I have no white brothers, sisters, Dad, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, or better yet the person who raped my mother and hence who I came to be was. Did you ever bother to ask that to yourself?

And why can't I as a POC ask that we not be compared to crayola? Curious Toughy I really am, and once again why is it that when a POC color even if it's Snow again asking why can't it be respected?



Snow............

Several times in various places on this forum, you (and only you) have suggested it's inappropriate for white folks to use the terms 'red', 'brown', 'yellow' and 'black'. If that is true, why is it ok for you to use the term 'white'? You are not white, so why should you get to use that term? At least that is how I understand your logic.

Just to be clear, I don't give two shits if you call me white, of European descent, honkey, whitey or any other version or slur about white folks. I just don't like what looks and feels like a hypocritical stance. I don't think that is your intention, but it sure looks and feels that way to me.

[Linus]

If it wasn't out and out sympathy to his cause, then I think it was making a deal with the devil, if they let him alone, they wouldn't be targets of attacks. Once we did the dirty work, they can feign ignorance and outrage.

Actually, I was thinking that the US asked the Pakistani gov't not to talk about it and to feign ignorance. In previous actions it was blasted all over the news and that took the edge off the action. So it actually makes a lot of sense not to blab decisions as much on the air.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Have you guys looked around our community? How many POC stick around? How many of us are posting and hanging out in here without having to call ism after ism after ism. Does it make us wonder why after some of the posts in here? Or do you just not care?

[violaine]

june, i did cite another source. if my opinion is different, but on topic, how does that automatically equate to argumentative? black as well as african american are in my vocabulary, and it is imperative to write that i'm not a racist.

in some of the red zones, there are a few lines at the top of threads about people being able to engage [without moderation] directly with the poster, and that is what i would like to be able to do, please.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I would like to clarify that NONE of the racial slurs and covert racial pokes were done in any Red Zone threads. Even then I would think we would not go on there and use them since it's clearly not ok.

[Random]

Putting in my .02

Until two mins ago I didn't know that the P word was a slur... I've used it because the word Pakistani is just longer to say and type. I assumed it was like Okie and Arkie...

Wiktinary is your friend...

[Random]

I have a real question that I've been biting my tongue over.

If you have a POC saying please don't refer to POC by their skin color, and then you have another POC stating that they prefer to be called by their skin color then how do you not make a racial statement when talking about race?

Snows request to V to not use skin color vs AJ (Dreadgeeks) request to not be called POC or African American, but Black is what brought this question to mind.

I also thought that everyone was individual and that one person couldn't speak for all people.

I am confused... I'm not being snarky or have a grudge against Snow... I'm just a bit confused about the rules for talking about race on this board.. Do I discount the preferences of my acquaintance in real time to accomidate one persons personal preference?

I can understand one person saying.. Do not refer to me by my color, but It confuses me to have one person speak for all.

I don't post in the racial threads because I really don't want to make a major fux pas while stumbling my way through unlearning white privilage and racism....

[Toughy]

I will say this directly to Snow: You have always identified yourself as a POC, latina to be specific. You always speak as a POC in these conversations. What else would you have me believe about you? Are you telling me now that you are white or mixed race? I don't understand. My beliefs about you were not created in a vacumn without you. I was asking for clarification, not being disrespectful. It is ALWAYS right to ask for clarification of anyone if you don't understand something they are saying or asking.

As far as I know, there is no beef between me and Snow. We disagree from time to time about some subjects. For Me that does NOT add up to a personal beef. June, can you clarify for me why you think I have a personal beef with Snow? You and I have never had a conversation about Snow.

I addressed Snow because she is the one who has broached the subject of using 'crayola colors' when refering to POC. My questions and statements were about clarification of what she has requested......it was not a personal attack. In retrospect, I should have stated my questions and comments differently and left Snow's name out of it. I should have addressed the concepts only as I am doing below.

This is about terminology when refering to people and their ancestral origins. It has been stated that using the colors black, yellow, red, brown is not ok for white folks. However it is apparently ok to call folks of AngloSaxon/Europeon descent white. That is not a logical position. If white folks can't call POC by colors, then POCs can't call Europeans white. If brown is wrong, then white is wrong. It is accepted that racial slurs of any sort are wrong. It's wrong to call a black person the 'n' word and it's wrong to call a white person 'whitey' or 'honkey'. Crayola colors are no different. Respect is a two way street.

I also must point out something that is glaringly obvious to me. It is absolutely not logical to say don't call POC by color. The term POC means People of Color. The term itself is about skin color other than white.

I don't believe creating a minefield of acceptable/unacceptable words is useful. I know plenty of folks from all kinds of ancestry that don't have any issue with crayola colors. There are black folk in this country who do NOT claim Africa as their ancestry and don't want to be called African Americans. I know black folk from Brazil, who speak Portuguese, that would be way pissed if you called them African. I know white folks from Africa who consider themselves Africans. Africans can be white or black. US citizens can be black and from anywhere in the world. Same goes for brown and red and yellow and white.

I also would make a request. I think this conversation needs to happen in a respectful way. It does not belong in a thread about Pakistan's knowlege about bin Laden. Perhaps a new thread could be started about terminology and the appropriate posts could be put in it.....we need the context so future readers will see where it came from.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Random when I addressed the skin color issue it was directed at white people, who have and do not own the words that POC or the preferences on how to be prefered, does that make sense?

POC know how to navigate around each other's labels, it's when white people assume they can tell a POC even if it's one what they can and can't use. I hope that makes sense and clarifies a bit

[The_Lady_Snow]

Toughy, you assumed I had no white, and if we want to get to the nitty gritty I can't not even in a census claim it since I am of Hispanic descent as they so kindly put it, when I check the census box I check what I am and that is Hispanic or better yet LATINO/A. Just because I was or have some form of white origin in me (btw I don't know exactly since the deed was not consentual) that doesn't mean I was raised, or am I culturally so, I was born in Mexico, my mother is mexican and so is my other family, now the man who raised me is white, he is my father the only one I know of. I don't have to explain why I use LATINA as my label just the same way I don't ask you to explain to me why at one time you use she or others hy.

Do you not see how disrespectful and ugly that is? It's who I am I am LATINA the other blood or heritage that is in my DNA doesn't erase the fact I was raised as such, born as such and kept as such and yet my labels and how I choose to identify are continously questioned by people of lighter skin than myself. I don't even get to choose to use white if I wanted to Tougy and you care to know why?

Cause for some fucked up unknown reason people who are lighter than I and see my darker skin *automatically* assume I don't even belong here or hthat I am not American.

I am, I live in the United States of America, I am a LATINA woman, not a brown woman, my name is Snow and I am a LATINA woman who happens to have a dash of non LATINO blood in me yet I still can't identify as so because not only do caucasians not allow it, neither does a goverment when counting the great people of this nation.

I don't feel this is a derailment of the thread, the racial slurs that have been used and have been thrown in clear print, yet for some fucked up unknown reason people want to jump down on me for not allowing them?

Do you not see the ridiculousness of that?

Should I just continue to sit silent and not derail a thread when racist comments are being made? I just don't understand how much more (even if it ONE POC saying please don't) this community expects for POC to take.

Is that the goal, to have all POC silenced regardless of how small and simple the request and for the sake of not derailing?

Is this for realz?




I will say this directly to Snow: You have always identified yourself as a POC, latina to be specific. You always speak as a POC in these conversations. What else would you have me believe about you? Are you telling me now that you are white or mixed race? I don't understand. My beliefs about you were not created in a vacumn without you. I was asking for clarification, not being disrespectful. It is ALWAYS right to ask for clarification of anyone if you don't understand something they are saying or asking.

As far as I know, there is no beef between me and Snow. We disagree from time to time about some subjects. For Me that does NOT add up to a personal beef. June, can you clarify for me why you think I have a personal beef with Snow? You and I have never had a conversation about Snow.

I addressed Snow because she is the (only?) one who has broached the subject of using 'crayola colors' when refering to POC. My questions and statements were about clarification of what she has requested......it was not a personal attack. In retrospect, I should have stated my questions and comments differently and left Snow's name out of it. I should have addressed the concepts only as I am doing below.

This is about terminology when refering to people and their ancestral origins. It has been stated that using the colors black, yellow, red, brown is not ok for white folks. However it is apparently ok to call folks of AngloSaxon/Europeon descent white. That is not a logical position. If white folks can't call POC by colors, then POCs can't call Europeans white. If brown is wrong, then white is wrong. It is accepted that racial slurs of any sort are wrong. It's wrong to call a black person the 'n' word and it's wrong to call a white person 'whitey' or 'honkey'. Crayola colors are no different. Respect is a two way street.

I also must point out something that is glaringly obvious to me. It is absolutely not logical to say don't call POC by color. The term POC means People of Color. The term itself is about skin color other than white.

I don't believe creating a minefield of acceptable/unacceptable words is useful. I know plenty of folks from all kinds of ancestry that don't have any issue with crayola colors. There are black folk in this country who do NOT claim Africa as their ancestry and don't want to be called African Americans. I know black folk from Brazil, who speak Portuguese, that would be way pissed if you called them African. I know white folks from Africa who consider themselves Africans. Africans can be white or black. US citizens can be black and from anywhere in the world. Same goes for brown and red and yellow and white.

I also would make a request. I think this conversation needs to happen in a respectful way. It does not belong in a thread about Pakistan's knowlege about bin Laden. Perhaps a new thread could be started about terminology and the appropriate posts could be put in it.....we need the context so future readers will see where it came from.

[AtLast]

Violaine, this thread is not in the Red Zone. You can say you're not a racist, that's fine. But if you live as and are seen as a white person, then you probably need to check your own privilege.

June (Moderator voice)

Maybe I should have put it in the Red Zone- although, I thought only admin/mods could do that.

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

I don't know what the decision process is for moving a thread to the Red Zone, but request that that be considered.

[Chancie]

<snip>

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

<snip>


But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

[Martina]

i agree that we have few POC here and had few at the other site. There is a reason they leave. It's not THIS site's or even the other's fault although they were way lax and late about addressing the racism issue. It's a social issue. It's something we have to work at to change because if we don't, there is too much racism for most POC to tolerate.

That said, i think using a pejorative in quotes is OK if you are discussing the word and its use, not using it to offend. If it offends, it is OK to scale it back to a usage such as the n-word. But using the words in quotes is not a racist act. That it can still hurt is clear. And if that is the case, and someone tells you to stop, then by all means stop.

The same with the word "Black." i use African American at least 90 percent of the time. i hear myself use "Black" sometimes, sometimes in the context of asking someone's race. My students, who are African American and Latino, use it regularly and not as a pejorative. i just read a lovely poem by a student about her black pride. She was riffing off of a Tupac poem.

As always we should address and refer to people as they choose. i do not think modding someone for culturally accepted practices makes a lot of sense though.

[violaine]

i do not have a personal issue whenever critically thinking/sharing on a subject. i really like this [and other thought-provoking] conversations as well, and would also like for them to respectfully continue. my participation in a thread- i.e., typing out words or thanking, does not mean i have personal agenda if i do or do not not agree with someone either. if i type that is not where i'm coming from, isn't that as important as anyone else wanting to be heard on anti-racism?

i like opening up for clarification and moving on- fostering more positive relationships.

i do not know a lot about pakistan save in words, as i've never visited the country. openly discussing political issues differs greatly in other regions of the world so much from our freedom/ culture here.

[BullDog]

Racism needs to be discussed where it occurs, not moved to another thread- although other aspects of language usage and terminology could make for an additional useful discussion.

Unfortunately racism has played a role in what has occurred as well as this discussion.

I am extremely angry that a President of the United States feels compelled to trot out his birth certificate to prove that he is a U.S. citizen. The constant message is if you aren't white your U.S. citizenry is suspect.

I also feel that President Obama is not getting the respect or credit he deserves for succeeding in the mission to get Bin Laden.

It also boggles my mind that they would use a Native American name as a code word for Bin Laden. How could members of the National Security Council- including President Obama- not know how inappropriate, hurtful and disrespectful this is?

Different POC individuals want to be referred to differently. We have different pronoun preferences, gender ids, etc. So why would that be surprising.

[AtLast]

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

Here is my OP statement (#1)-

A poll and place to discuss the role, if any of Pakistan's government or military having knowledge that bin Laden was living under their noses.

For a discussion of what this might mean for the future US relationship between the US and Pakistan if it turns out that Pakistan was harboring him.

What should, if anything the US do about the billions of dollars per year we give Pakistan?

Is this relationship helpful in building better relations with Islam at all and this part of the world? Or, is the US using Pakistan in some ways? Or, are we engaged with Pakistan because it has nuclear weapons and a negative relationship with India?

And any other points people want to bring up! It is a complex situation and grows even more complex with the US killing of bin Laden in Pakistan in a manner that some believe to be wrong- entering a sovereign nation to kill someone without permission to do so.

[Toughy]

me in this color

Toughy, you assumed I had no white, and if we want to get to the nitty gritty I can't not even in a census claim it since I am of Hispanic descent as they so kindly put it, when I check the census box I check what I am and that is Hispanic or better yet LATINO/A. Just because I was or have some form of white origin in me (btw I don't know exactly since the deed was not consentual) that doesn't mean I was raised, or am I culturally so, I was born in Mexico, my mother is mexican and so is my other family, now the man who raised me is white, he is my father the only one I know of. I don't have to explain why I use LATINA as my label just the same way I don't ask you to explain to me why at one time you use she or others hy.

Good grief.....I know you id as a Latina and I never questioned that. If I ever did refer to you based on your ancestry I would say Latina, not brown woman. That is not what I was asking about. I was trying to understand why I can't use the term brown, but you can use the term white. If it's disrespectful to refer to folks as brown, then it's disrespectful to refer to folks as white. Do you not understand that?


Do you not see how disrespectful and ugly that is? It's who I am I am LATINA the other blood or heritage that is in my DNA doesn't erase the fact I was raised as such, born as such and kept as such and yet my labels and how I choose to identify are continously questioned by people of lighter skin than myself. I don't even get to choose to use white if I wanted to Tougy and you care to know why?

Cause for some fucked up unknown reason people who are lighter than I and see my darker skin *automatically* assume I don't even belong here or hthat I am not American.

I am, I live in the United States of America, I am a LATINA woman, not a brown woman, my name is Snow and I am a LATINA woman who happens to have a dash of non LATINO blood in me yet I still can't identify as so because not only do caucasians not allow it, neither does a goverment when counting the great people of this nation.

I hear you and understand you get treated like shit by both POC and non-POC for various reasons. I think it's fucked up. I think there are some really fucked up asshats in this world who use fucked up ideas to demean folks. I understand it makes you look at (what seems to be) everyone with distrust. I do get that.

I also would suggest that not all us white folks are asshat racist folks. There are many of us who stand with you about things like 'papers please' legislation. I am appalled and horrified that our President had to present his 'papers please' to make those asshats shut the fuck up.


I don't feel this is a derailment of the thread, the racial slurs that have been used and have been thrown in clear print, yet for some fucked up unknown reason people want to jump down on me for not allowing them?

Do you not see the ridiculousness of that?

Frankly, I never heard folks from Pakistan referred to as P***s.......it's a new one to me. I learned something. I don't see where you have been jumped down on in this thread....certainly not by me.

I personally don't like the use of astericks in place of spelling out the actual word. When I see n*****, I think the word in my head....I don't understand why n***** is better than actually spelling out the word...the result is the same. If I had seen P***s, I would have been completely clueless. I'm not sure I would have picked up on the j** or s*** without more clarification. Those words are not something I hear said by my friends.

Should I just continue to sit silent and not derail a thread when racist comments are being made? I just don't understand how much more (even if it ONE POC saying please don't) this community expects for POC to take.

Is that the goal, to have all POC silenced regardless of how small and simple the request and for the sake of not derailing?

I think racist stuff should be called out when and where it happens.

My suggesting another thread for this was about the big picture conversation concerning using crayola colors when talking about folks. The big picture about terminology and what is appropriate and not appropriate on the Planet.

My goal was to have a conversation, not to silence anyone. I am not in the habit of trying to silence folks. I welcome disscusion and conversation about ideas and concepts, not about individuals. As Random pointed out....there are folks on this site that prefer 'crayola colors' to ancestral origins in describing themselves or others.

Is this for realz?

I absolutley loathe the term 'caucasian'. It enforces the idea there are only 3 racial groups: Cacasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. It ignores the idea that race is a social construct. It inhibits our ability to understand race and gender as social contructs and not scientific fact.
Understanding that race is not science, makes it easier to move forward on issues of equality

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm not doing the merry go round with you Toughy where you act like you didn't mean anything or it wasn't personal, or you weren't just singling it me out because frankly I don't believe you. I am noticing that my use of the word white is getting more attention and more lecturing than the other racist slurs that were used.

That's odd to me and tells me A LOT.

I don't get why it's so hard to not use the words, why can't a person be considerate enough to just listen, and frankly white is not an offensive nor is it an oppressing term to use when referring to people nor has white been used historically, socially as an opressing term.

It's beyond me how you can't see it and honestly telling how once again no matter how much a POC (even if one) asks that people aren't going to listen because it's gonna be all about the majority and certainly not the minority.

[Toughy]

Snow I am sorry you think I am a liar and think we have some sort of bad blood between us. Neither of those things are true for me. I was hoping for a conversation about ideas with you and other folks.....conversations are not merry-go-rounds in my mind.

It is very disheartening to try to be clear and not have you understand it. I don't know what else to do or say. It is disheartening to have you not address my questions so I may be able to understand your position. I truly want to understand what I saw as an inconsistency in your statements.


I have no issues with how Ender used those racial slurs. I agree with the idea that those words can be spelled out and used in conversation in a non-racist manner. I dont' believe the context in which Ender used those terms to be racist. It was, in fact, pointing out racism.

I have not nor will I ever refer to you personally as a brown woman. You request Latina and it will as always be Latina, when appropriate, in reference to you as I stated above. I respect your preferences. I also respect other POC folks preferences. I call people what they want. Sometimes what one person likes, another hates. Someone pointed out it's similiar to pronouns.......there are personal preferences.

The issue is what is the acceptable culture for the Planet. I'm not sure how to address that because of the differences of opinion among POC about the use of 'crayola color' when referring to POC. It is a conundrum for sure.

Happy Mother's Day tomorrow........I hope you have a great one.

[The_Lady_Snow]

We're not going to agree on how words should be used since for you they have a different feel to them, I did not nor do I like when a person who is not of any kind of LATINO/A descent uses the words sp** and it's a disgusting and ugly term, it shouldn't matter how it was used, what should matter is a member of a community as that those terms not be used, or better yet take the time to refer to someone by their cultural reference.

I don't see you Toughy calling out (that's what this has turned to) any other person but me for using the term *white* there are other POC that have yet you are *choosing* to police me, and continue to deflect it on me because of the word white??

I am now up to GAWD knows how many posts explaining over and over why I felt the way I did, and all I've gotten is the wagging of the finger for using the words white.

As I said earlier, I get the big picture, and even though the slurs were used, and only one POC (me) says don't do it it's not going to be listened to, what this has now turned into as this is how it feels to me as a member of this community that how I address a white person is being scrutinized.

Consider me silenced I should of known my place.

ETA

This is not the first time I have asked in a mannerly fashion for the word sp*** to not be used.

[Toughy]

shaking my head............you will attach whatever you want to what I write.......my words are there to speak for me

(except for moderators on this website) the only person who can silence you is yourself..........

[AtLast]

We're not going to agree on how words should be used since for you they have a different feel to them, I did not nor do I like when a person who is not of any kind of LATINO/A descent uses the words sp** and it's a disgusting and ugly term, it shouldn't matter how it was used, what should matter is a member of a community as that those terms not be used, or better yet take the time to refer to someone by their cultural reference.

I don't see you Toughy calling out (that's what this has turned to) any other person but me for using the term *white* there are other POC that have yet you are *choosing* to police me, and continue to deflect it on me because of the word white??

I am now up to GAWD knows how many posts explaining over and over why I felt the way I did, and all I've gotten is the wagging of the finger for using the words white.

As I said earlier, I get the big picture, and even though the slurs were used, and only one POC (me) says don't do it it's not going to be listened to, what this has now turned into as this is how it feels to me as a member of this community that how I address a white person is being scrutinized.

Consider me silenced I should of known my place.

ETA

This is not the first time I have asked in a mannerly fashion for the word sp*** to not be used.

That word and many others have no place here or anywhere.

[Words]

Concerning one of bin Laden's wives and child(ren) seeing him get a part of his head blown off. The wife knew what could happen if she lived with him. She did not have to be there, nor did the children. I'm not likely to shed a tear or have a second thought about her seeing him get killed.

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

[Martina]

Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?


Thank you. i normally don't get "upset" by posts, but an earlier one saying that his wives were there probably just for sex and that the kids were just basically thought of as new canon fodder for the revolution nearly made me wretch.

That is classic othering. CLASSIC dehumanization of the other. If you say someone cannot love their wives or their children, what are they? If we dehumanize others, then we are doing exactly what Osama did, which is what made it possible for him to kill innocents.

[AtLast]

No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words


This brings me back to working with foster kids, far too many of them seeing a parent (or both) murdered. They never get over this. In some cases, the parents knew they were putting their kids in harms way, but drug induced states clouded common sense.

I don't believe bin Laden should have had his kids in that situation in the first place. It goes against my every thread of what parent protection ought to be.

However, I realize that I am speaking from a very different cultural perspective. I have never lived (well, until 9/11- but still very different than countless countries where this stuff goes on almost daily) with this kind of violence surrounding me as part of life.

There are many, many of us here in the US that derive no satisfaction from the killing of his kids or some of them seeing this. They are little kids.

It is the "part of life" worldwide that bothers me- and what feels like a lack of any regard for figuring out how we (the US) can change how we are viewed. This bothers me deeply. There is no “closure” here at all.

[Toughy]

I am not always perfect. I try to be. I try to always see the humanity in folks. I certainly am not celebrating his death or the manner in which he was killed. As I said my preference was alive and in our civilian judicial system.

As to why an unarmed man was killed........without being there I cannot say why it happened. Having been in the military I can see how it would happen. War kills unarmed folks. There was every justified expectation that bin Laden was armed and dangerous. He had said he would not be taken alive.

However your point is taken. It is a bad thing to not really care about what a woman and her child saw, regardless of who they are.


No one's asking you to shed a tear about anything Toughy.

I disagree with you though about the wife and children not having to be there. Why wouldn't they be there? This was her husband, their father -where else were they likely to be?

You might not care about a 12 year old seeing her father blown to bits but me? Yeah, I have an issue with it. I've met children like that before, seen what it does to them, and I'm sorry, but given that Bin Laden wasn't armed, I just don't get why killing him in front of his family was necessary.

And no, I don't care who he was, or what he did - I'd say exactly the same thing were we talking about Hitler. Sins of the fathers, and all that.

Words

[Glenn]

This country provided a safe haven for Osama Bin Laden while taking money from US taxpayers.
This country encourages it's 98% Muslim majority to kidnap and kill it's 1% Christian minority.
This country exports terrorists to UK, France, Sweden, Germany, and America.
If you are the POTUS, what would you do about Pakistan?

Me: Cut off all aid
Withdraw all troops.
Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.
I still don't know what to do about our convoys in Afganistan

[Toughy]

I have no idea about Pakistan except to continue engaging them in a constructive manner. They have nukes, so we must look at them differently. India also has nukes. There has been border wars for years and years and they don't like each other at all. Letting enemies deal with Pakistan makes me nervous when I think about the possiblity of nuclear weapons being used by and/or against Pakistan.

We have safe haven for 'terrorists' in this country. We allow the christian majority to oppress and kill folks that don't agree with their particular version of christianity. We invaded and destroyed a country for no damn good reason (Iraq).

I do know what I would do about Afghanistan: start the withdrawal of every single military person AND every single mercenary...ooppppsss private security people. Obama says we will start withdrawal in June or July this year. I also think no military base should be there........I'm not sure what Obama has to say about that. A consulate and a few Marines should be left.

I also think the same thing should be done in Iraq.....all US troops and mercenaries should be withdrawn. No military base in Iraq. A consulate and the marines who protect them should be there.

[AtLast]

One of the things that always enters my mind concerning Pakistan is the assination of Benazir Bhutto.

[sharkchomp]

Did Pakistan know where bin Laden was? I'd say yes and I'd say several nations probally did. We may have even known he was there for a while, but I'm sure politics had to be worked out before we moved in. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't want him there and a 'deal' was worked out with us.

Do I feel bad that he was killed? Nope. I'm not out celebrating in the streets but I do feel a small justice has been served. I've read a lot of people saying in essense they couldn't condone his murder, but bin Laden wasn't a nice guy. He was an evil man with an agenda, much like Hitler. The United States is a pretty forgiving nation, I get it. It's been ten years and a lot of people have died over the 'war against terror'. But I think back to the day the Towers (our nation) was attacked. Thousands of people died gruesomely. People jumped out of the Twin Towers to their deaths. I'll never forget the sounds of their bodies impacting the ground, sounding like small explosions. A person has to be facing something pretty horrific to jump to their death. People burned. People were ground to bits to never be found in the collapse. People were on planes going on the merry way. I can only imagine their fear as the terrorists took over the planes, waiting to be rescued or trying to regain control of the plane. Those people were our fellow Americans. They were someones Daddy or Mommy, someone's son or daughter, husband or wife. So no, I don't feel bad he was murdered. I'm sure the families of the people who were murdered on 9-11 don't feel bad that he is dead either.

Also, I want to add this. When we invaded Iraq (the second time), I was very against this war but a couple of years ago I worked with someone from Iraq. I asked her if she was against the war/invasion. She said, "No, I'm not against it at all. Sadam was killed and that is a great thing. Now the U.S. hasn't kept some of the promises they made, but otherwise, it's much better over there." It was a great conversation and I learned a lot from her about how the Iraq people view our government. So perhaps in a small way, the war was worth it? I'm still undecided but after her conversation I did feel a bit better about it.

~~~shark~~~~~~~~

[Glenn]

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

[Semantics]

Here's some advice: when you're going to copy and paste posts from other forums don't pick the ones posted by users named things like "Anonymous Coward". A username like that is probably a good indicator that their posts might be offensive or ignorant.



Me: Cut off all aid



I think it's silly that people are now getting all assy about the billions of aid we send them because of Osama bin Laden. How about before we knew he was there? All of those human rights violations weren't enough to stop the aid? That's some weird logic.


Withdraw all troops.


We only have a handful of troops there and they'd be happy to see us leave.


Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.


I'm not sure why you think they need us so badly. They have nuclear weapons and they also have one of the largest militaries in the world.

Don't forget (or, I'm not sure you ever knew this), but they let us carry out military operations in their country. We need them a lot more than they need us.



To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

Telling people to leave the country and go live elsewhere is so 2004.

If that's all you've got (other than to blow you), I'm not going to put much effort into reasoning with you.

[Kobi]

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.



Pop,

With all due respect, I find this spewing of anger so offensive on so many different levels.

I am one of those Americans who is very concerned with the path our leaders are taking us down. I am not one of those linear thinkers who falls for "my country right or wrong".

One of the greast things about this country and the people who comprise it, is our ability and freedom to look at things. to question things, to struggle with the grey areas involved in the decisions that are made and the ways in which it impacts on our lives and the lives of others in the world.

We may have better lives by our standards than others but we also have a society that put profits above all else. Profit above people, profit above health care, profit above equality, profit above <insert choice here>.

And when we seek to impose our ideals, our beliefs, our ways on others there are consequences to bear. "Terrorist groups" arent created in a vacuum. They come about from oppression from within and without.

There is a ever growing grey area in my mind as to the motivations and methods that are being used in the world today, on both a micro and macro scale, and national and international level.

This grey area didnt materialize without a reason. The reason is some stuff just doesnt make sense. Those with power, the media, whoever can put a good marketing spin on things but when there is an absence of logic and reason and truth.....hopefully one struggles with the reality, rather than accepting it unquestioned.

Hate and fear are very unpleasant things that become manifested in very unpleasant ways. You dont stop it by becoming part of it. You stop it by stepping outside of it.

[Thinker]

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.

This kind of participation isn't helpful. If you *really* want members here to engage with you and, perhaps, explain why they have the feelings they have then you'll need to consider a less explosive way of asking.

There are some really sharp folks here with good stuff to share, but that won't do you much good if you're not open to really hearing it.

We appreciate replies like those that follow.....of Kobi and Semantics......for trying to reason without responding with attacks.

Consider your words and intent carefully.

Thinker (moderator)

[Gaige]

But Queer folks in committed relationships who pay taxes like everyone else still don't have the legal right to marry under Federal law. Huh.



I'm just thankful to live in a country that doesn't execute someone because they're gay or lesbian. I'm hopeful the marriage issue will change.

[Kat]

The "aid" goes to corrupt government officials, just like it does in every country we bribe with money. They don't give a shit about their people, but their people are the ones who are dying. Same story, different country...

That said, I think Pakistani civilians would be overjoyed if we withdrew our troops:

"The Brookings Institution suggests that drone strikes may kill "10 or so civilians" for every militant killed.The Pakistani military has stated that most of those killed were hardcore Al-Qaeda and Taliban militants. However Pakistan's Interior Minister Rehman Malik said "Drone missiles cause collateral damage. A few militants are killed, but the majority of victims are innocent citizens." (Wikipedia - Pakistan drones)

So when are we going to add the U.S. to the axis of evil? Oh, wait -- we're the WHEEL...


This country provided a safe haven for Osama Bin Laden while taking money from US taxpayers.
This country encourages it's 98% Muslim majority to kidnap and kill it's 1% Christian minority.
This country exports terrorists to UK, France, Sweden, Germany, and America.
If you are the POTUS, what would you do about Pakistan?

Me: Cut off all aid
Withdraw all troops.
Let whichever enemies they have do whatever.
I still don't know what to do about our convoys in Afganistan

[Gaige]

Handsome, I agree with you. Now, our government doesn't kill or imprison queer folks, but they used to. Even into the 60's we faced jail time unless we wore at least 3 pieces of "gender appropriate" clothing. And while our government may not officially sanction our deaths, we are still subject to dying at the hands of our fellow citizens just because we're gay.

I had no idea. Seems we've come a long way. I've been fortunate to never have experienced hate directed towards me because I am gay. Of course I live in a hardcore Democrat state.

[violaine]

i found these during a search for constitution, governance, law and justice, sustainable development, et c.-


http://www.nyulawglobal.org/Globalex/Pakistan.htm


http://www.loc.gov/law/help/guide/nations/pakistan.php

[Martina]

An article in the NYTimes today that one neighbor thought that the reason the people in the Bin Laden house were so security minded might be hat they had killed someone back in their home village. The implication is that they were afraid of reprisals. So there are other reasons for people to be security-minded in Pakistan. i am sure there are many. Anyway, it sounds like the neighbors weren't hiding his identity.

Edited to add: the U.S. government has announced that they haven't found evidence that the Pakistani govt knew where Bin Laden was.

[atomiczombie]

I see a lot of passion and anger and hurt going on in this thread. I am sad that we aim some of it at each other. I would just like to say that it is important not to get caught up in all-or-nothing-thinking. As Kobi said, there are shades of grey and distinctions to be made. There are lots of legitimate reasons to be angry and upset about the wars and conflicts between the US and other countries, as well as the injustices going on within our own shores. However, painting these issues with an all-good or all-bad brush tends to keep us away from the truth and stuck in our bad feelings. That's all I have for now.

[AtLast]

Handsome, I agree with you. Now, our government doesn't kill or imprison queer folks, but they used to. Even into the 60's we faced jail time unless we wore at least 3 pieces of "gender appropriate" clothing. And while our government may not officially sanction our deaths, we are still subject to dying at the hands of our fellow citizens just because we're gay.

Part of me rejoices that we no longer live with what went on back then. Yet, I do wish that US queer youth would do some research into "those days." The recent docs on Stonewall (40 year celebration documentaries) bring back a lot of what it was really like.

[Words]

To all those Americans here who think what we've done is just as bad as OsamaBin Motherfucking Laden: You people should really try to make me understand this better by leaving my evil country and go live with Osama's family and start blowing up women and children in the name of Allah, if we're just as bad. Disgraceful. All you need to do is look at the type of country we've produced, then look at the type of country the Bin Laden mindset has produced (like Afganistan under taliban) and what arguement do I need to make? Where people can mostly say whatever they want in public vs one where you can be beaten down in the street by religious poliice for not wearing the right clothes or listening to music? So why am I thinking bad thoughts about radical moslems? Blow me sir.



You have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, insulted Muslims and their religion, and for some reason I've yet to understand, you seem to be getting away with it. What is it, exactly, that you're trying to prove here? Following in Daddy's footsteps (Mafiosa my ass) are we, or are you simply a nasty, ignorant, racist with a particular grudge against Muslims?

Either way, motherfuckinpopcorninthesofa, you're talking out of your ass.

Words

[Thinker]

You have repeatedly, REPEATEDLY, insulted Muslims and their religion, and for some reason I've yet to understand, you seem to be getting away with it. What is it, exactly, that you're trying to prove here? Following in Daddy's footsteps (Mafiosa my ass) are we, or are you simply a nasty, ignorant, racist with a particular grudge against Muslims?

Either way, motherfuckinpopcorninthesofa, you're talking out of your ass.

Words

Words,

Earlier today I dealt with the offensive post. We ask members not to further comment on posts once they have been moderated.

Please contact me via PM if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Thinker (moderator)

[Words]

No questions Thinker, just a bit confused as when I tried to report an offensive post in this particular thread, I got the following message:

PLEASE NOTE: We ***DO NOT*** moderate posts in the Red Zone unless it is a death threat, threats of bodily harm, something illegal, etc. If you are reporting a post that you find problematic, the entire purpose of The Red Zone is to give you the opportunity to address the post YOURSELF by engaging with the person who posted it.

Either way, my apologies. I'm sure there'll be lots more opportunities for me to speak to popcorn directly.

Words

[Thinker]

No questions Thinker, just a bit confused as when I tried to report an offensive post in this particular thread, I got the following message:

PLEASE NOTE: We ***DO NOT*** moderate posts in the Red Zone unless it is a death threat, threats of bodily harm, something illegal, etc. If you are reporting a post that you find problematic, the entire purpose of The Red Zone is to give you the opportunity to address the post YOURSELF by engaging with the person who posted it.

Either way, my apologies. I'm sure there'll be lots more opportunities for me to speak to popcorn directly.

Words

I see. Good point. The message you see there shows up as a default whenever the "reporting" function is used.....just as a reminder to the member to see if the discussion is in the Red Zone.

This particular discussion is not in the RZ (but the message shows up anyway). I can certainly understand your confusion there and appreciate you explaining that.

Thanks again,
Thinker (moderator)

[AtLast]

Pilot refuses flight to Muslims

Posted: May 08, 2011 3:14 PM PDT
Updated: May 08, 2011 3:15 PM PDT
CHARLOTTE, NC (WSOC/CNN) - Two Muslim leaders were removed from a plane after the pilot refused to fly with them on board.

It happened Friday on an Atlantic Southeast Airlines flight.

The two imams were headed to North Carolina for a conference on prejudice against Muslims when they were removed from the plane by TSA agents.

The pilot said passengers were uncomfortable with the two men, who were wearing traditional Muslim clothing.

Airport security screened again the two men and cleared them, but the pilot refused to let them back on.

-----

This is just bullshit! My hope is that this pilot is at least reprimanded by his employer- and I wouldn't blame these men for filing a law suit.

So, would it be OK for a pilot to refuse flying some queers, too? I tiink the passengers having the problem should have been removed and put on another flight, if anything. And it is bullshit they were scxreened for a second time.

http://www.kfvs12.com/story/14595636/pilot-refuses-flight-to-muslims

[Julie]

I wish I could say I was shocked by the postings and the language which is being used to describe human beings.

As many of you know, I work in Peace - Primarily with children around the world and gratefully in countries such as Pakistan -- The term *Paki* is beyond offensive.

I am not going to get into a political debate about why all of this is so very wrong. It makes me sad.

I leave you with this...
Art work by a child who might not be around to create her art for me this year - because we american's find it necessary (not all) to devalue lives and forget the faces. We think we are such a huge world, but really are very small.

Here is Peace - from the eyes of a child in Pakistan.

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo187/sheisdesign/pakistan_8.jpg?t=1305042437

This little child - maybe she can teach you something. Now, I am off to read the confederate flag subject -- this is MY community. I know we do not have to all get along and I know we all are different in so many beautiful ways. But to be proud to be hateful and disregard human beings... Is such a disappointment.

The face of the enemy!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_B_2b6z6A4kg/S_BZouTZgPI/AAAAAAAAAAM/jC0m6tyLtcw/s1600/pakistan-girl5_3868.jpg

[rockybcn]

[As many of you know, I work in Peace - Primarily with children around the world and gratefully in countries such as Pakistan -- The term *Paki* is beyond offensive.]


I personally thank you Julie for your contributions for peace. I hope the world will one day be a better place.
Maybe people are offended by the shortening of these nationalities ?:
Scot = from Scotland

Pole = from Poland

German = from Germany

Brit = from Britain

Aussie = from Australia

Finn = from Finland

Swede = from Sweden

All used without offence.

I think its because people associate the word Paki with racism, perhaps its time the word was reclaimed. The fault lies with those who use the word offensively in the first place not with those who use it without malice.

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's not YOUR word to' reclaim.

WTF is wrong witn people proclaiming what words they can and will claim usable???

DISLIKE!

[The_Lady_Snow]

You should go read wikipedia so that way you'll know it's a derogatory word, ffs stop using these racist slurs!

[weatherboi]

Pa**

Pa** may refer to:

Paki, California, former settlement in Butte County -

Pa**, a derogatory term for a person from South Asia, particularly Indians, Pakistanis-and Bangladeshis

Pākī (c. 1808–1855), a Hawaiian high chief during the reign of King Kamehameha III

[EnderD_503]

[As many of you know, I work in Peace - Primarily with children around the world and gratefully in countries such as Pakistan -- The term *Paki* is beyond offensive.]


I personally thank you Julie for your contributions for peace. I hope the world will one day be a better place.
Maybe people are offended by the shortening of these nationalities ?:
Scot = from Scotland

Pole = from Poland

German = from Germany

Brit = from Britain

Aussie = from Australia

Finn = from Finland

Swede = from Sweden

All used without offence.

I think its because people associate the word Paki with racism, perhaps its time the word was reclaimed. The fault lies with those who use the word offensively in the first place not with those who use it without malice.

This is both sad and hilarious all at once. Why? Because most of the words you wrote as "shortenings of nationalities" are the actually names for those nationalities.

For example: German = Germany...really? That is a shortening of the German nationality? So what is the original then, if not German? Germany is the name of the country, German is the name of the people. How the fuck is that a short form of anything?

Same with Finn and Swede. Nobody says "That guy is a Finnish" or "That guy is a Swedish." Finn and Swede are the nouns used to denote a citizen of Finland or Sweden or someone of Finnish or Swedish heritage...they are not just a shorter version of another word. "He is a Finn" vs. "He is Finnish" It's like "He is an Englishman" vs. "He is English." You don't say "He is an English."

Same thing for Pole and Scot: "He is a Pole" vs. "He is Polish." Nobody goes around saying "He is a Polish" or "He is a Scottish." Don't be ridiculous.

I would argue that Brit can be offensive depending on how it's used, especially in former British colonies where we might be referring to the British in a negative way. But overall, it's a word that has its stem from the British themselves, and not typically or always used to denote inferiority or negativity.

Same with Aussie.

However, if someone were to call me a "Frog" or a "Kraut," as a "white European" you better believe I'd be offended. Same if I heard someone call a Pole a "Polack," that would be just as offensive despite that Poles are white Europeans. Using any slur for ANY race or ANY ethnicity, yes including all ethnic Europeans, is disrespectful, offensive and shameful.

The word for citizens of Pakistan or people of Pakistani heritage is Pakistani and you can say "He is a Pakistani" just as well as "He is Pakistani" just the same as you could say "He is Greek" and "He is a Greek." There's no way to justify the use of that particular slur to refer directly to or address Pakistanis as not racist, no matter how much you might try.

[AtLast]

For the life of me, I am not understanding why it is so difficult to "hear" that something is offensive to other people.

Just by virtue of how sensitive relations are these days between Arab countries and Muslims and the degree of racist attitudes and actions, I think it just a good idea to believe what POC are saying about this.

[Jess]

I'm just thankful to live in a country that doesn't execute someone because they're gay or lesbian. I'm hopeful the marriage issue will change.

I agree. The comments about cutting off aid to this and/or other countries, made me wonder why we provide so much aid to countries who still condone execution for homosexuals ( among other human rights violations).

It wasn't that long ago that the list of countries represented at the UN who approved of execution was released. I recall being surprised that Haiti, a country who was at that time ( and is still currently) trying to rebuild from such a huge disaster much due to the aid coming from the USA and other countries, is among those countries on the UN list.

Here's that list:

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2010/11/29/un-resolution-condones-execution-of-gay-lesbian-bisexual-and-transgender-people/

( scroll to bottom for 79 countries)... just for a source.

Sorry for the derail. I guess it just made me think that if we should cut aid... cut it to ALL tyrants.

[Rook]

After a very long day, I'm very drowsy, can't keep up with reading this rather interesting Debate..
I will "Explain" my vote very briefly, for tonight, and subscribe..
You'll have to brush off any misunderstanding until I'm wide awake...
So, that being said..
Like quite a few, maybe they did....maybe they didn't....I'm leaning towards highly suspicious but not quite sure [why else would they take so fucking long to shoot him?*besides profit!*]
Let's take this "Fabulously Powerful" country called the U.S., ok....
Bear with me...
Some [Warren Jeffs comes to mind]Fundamentalist Mormons, marrying their cousin-sister-aunties, and banishing the potential rival son-uncle-nephews...in Enclaves that most of us had no fucking clue...
Not terrorists, true....but, we had no clue....

another example, take a pick of Serial killers....
My favorite?
Zodiac....
Why? Fucker to this day has yet to be found, within our own country....
Smart cookie...

And of course, there's the very touchy part...
Illegal Immigrants, some acting out as "Mules", not all are south of the border...
Some violate Visas[work, student, etc...]
Some have dubious intentions, and some are simply trying to slide under the wire to live with their same-sex partner and 2 kids.
After all the U.S. forbids gay marriage and gay rights within Immigration....
Immigration idea being said,
Who knows if private rich Pakistani's paid of private easily bribed poor Soldiers to protect their "rich" enclave, so they can have....what they might've considered, the Honor to be Host to a man who leads a fanatic cause against what is perceived in some places the most powerful Bully worldwide.
I say this because Persian, Middle Eastern, and Arab hospitality is notoriously known, a Guest is usually treated as King, regardless of known or stranger, once immediate danger is written off.....
That Intelligence was leaked by a greedy guard, higher up Pakistani Gov. maybe? Ok, Thats plausable too.....
But you really can't expect Pakistan to be aware of every Minute detail going on in a country where if u even dare pass the Khyber Pass anonymously, and live to tell, you're fuckin' Blessed.
Even we have issues, and our immigration laws are slowly choking the statue of liberty.....

{btw, i thoroughly agree on the "paki" crap, i cringed with every time i read it...especially when someone treated it so casual...it's as if someone just shrugged off calling me a spic, or half-breed :badmood:}

g'night...
:tiredcomputer:

[~ocean]

war is hell .. maybe the blame should be on those who hide behinde their wives and children as well..he had no right being there w. his family KNOWING that he is a wanted man .. he should have bucked up and lived alone .. also .. of course they knew he was there ..