I am... and I prefer the term...

[DapperButch]

POLL ATTACHED (but it takes a minute to put up, so hang on!). PLEASE look at ALL choices before choosing. You can only choose one...and there is no "do-overs!"

There has been talk here and there about the term cissexed (and the term cisgendered, but since I am referring to one's sex, I am going to use the term cissexed, exclusively), and if people like the term or don't like the term to refer to themselves or to refer to people who are the opposite of them.

I am wondering if how we identify impacts what term we like to use when referring to people who are born with XY chromosomes ("males") and XX chromosomes ("females") who feel that they were born in the right body.

So, I am curious and thought I would put up a poll garnering information on the preferences we all have and would like to have an open discussion (going in any and all directions) about the term and our feelings about the use of the term.

Disclaimer(s):

I have separated out transsexed people taking hormones (testosterone, estrogen) from transsexed people not taking hormones because I think it is possible that these two groups could differ in their preference of term, and I would like that reflected in the poll.

I am not going to go into my thinking on that because it could get us off track from what I am hoping this thread becomes about.

I hope people know me well enough to know that I do not regard the non hormone taking transsexed male/female as any less male/female than the hormone taking transsexed male/female.

I am aware that this poll does not include folks who don't identify as butch, femme, or transsexed, but I would be here forever coming up with options. Just pick the closest one in order to participate. One of the terms must resonate with you or you wouldn't be on the site to begin with.

-------------
Personally, as a Transgendered Butch, I have no strong feelings about the term cissexed, but tend to prefer the terms XY male and XX female.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm Snow. Femme-Dyke-Woman?

[DapperButch]

I'm Snow. Femme-Dyke-Woman?

I would choose femme then. See below.

P.S. I really did the best I could. Please no one dissect/pick apart the poll. Just choose to not participate if you are unhappy with it. :-(

Thank you! :-)

I am aware that this poll does not include folks who don't identify as butch, femme, or transsexed, but I would be here forever coming up with options. Just pick the closest one in order to participate. One of the terms must resonate with you or you wouldn't be on the site to begin with.

[ruffryder]

WOW. lots of terms. Can you please explain the terms "cissexed" and "transsexed" I would appreciate it. Thank you!

[DapperButch]

WOW. lots of terms. Can you please explain the terms "cissexed" and "transsexed" I would appreciate it. Thank you!

Good question.

Sex - male, female, intersexed, other terms (?)

Transsexed - another term to mean transsexual. Someone who defines/identifies as the opposite sex of their birth sex

Cissexed - another term to mean cissexual. Someone who defines/identifies with their birth sex.

[DapperButch]

Hey, Snow. I just saw the title to your post.

Of course everyone can participate in the discussion. I was referring to the poll options in my first response to you.

[ruffryder]

I am transgender consider hormones and I prefer the term transsexed.

[Toughy]

wiki does a pretty good job

cis-gendered: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

cis-sexual: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cissexual , (from urban dictionary) http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cissexual


and this from Pam's House Blend: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12837/cisgender-and-cissexual-terminology-the-getalonggoalong-moment



I am not fond of the term cis anything. Don't no why it gets under my skin, but it does.

[DapperButch]

wiki does a pretty good job

cis-gendered: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

cis-sexual: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cissexual , (from urban dictionary) http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cissexual


and this from Pam's House Blend: http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12837/cisgender-and-cissexual-terminology-the-getalonggoalong-moment



I am not found of the term cis anything. Don't no why it gets under my skin, but it does.

Thanks for the links, Toughy.

[ruffryder]

I think I agree with you Toughy. Why would a trans person like the word cis?? To me Trans means opposite sex why would someone choose that they relate with their sex? hmmm..

[Julie]

May I am confused... (not picking apart)

But you define: Cissexed - another term to mean cissexual. Someone who defines/identifies with their birth sex.

But then you have Femme/Bio Male - Bio Female

What would the difference be - in the femme category.

If I was born a bio female and I am femme... And I identify with my Bio Birth Sex - then which one am I?

And I am honestly not picking apart.

I had a great conversation with a friend yesterday... About misconceptions of b/f (sexism, etc... what gets us off and not).

I am a Lesbian
I am a Femme
I am a Dyke
I am a Woman

(not in any order - depends on my moment).

BUT - within the confines of your poll, I do not know how to answer.

Femme / Bio Male - Bio Female
Femme / Cissexed
Femme / XX or XY (abhor genetic terms)

Julie

[DapperButch]

May I am confused... (not picking apart)

But you define: Cissexed - another term to mean cissexual. Someone who defines/identifies with their birth sex.

But then you have Femme/Bio Male - Bio Female

What would the difference be - in the femme category.

If I was born a bio female and I am femme... And I identify with my Bio Birth Sex - then which one am I?

And I am honestly not picking apart.

I had a great conversation with a friend yesterday... About misconceptions of b/f (sexism, etc... what gets us off and not).

I am a Lesbian
I am a Femme
I am a Dyke
I am a Woman

(not in any order - depends on my moment).

BUT - within the confines of your poll, I do not know how to answer.

Femme / Bio Male - Bio Female
Femme / Cissexed
Femme / XX or XY (abhor genetic terms)

Julie

I'm sorry Julie. I should been clearer. The first spot is indicating how you identify, the next one is the term that you prefer when referring to a person who is not transsexual/transsexed.

I will see if I can fix the poll. Thank you.

Side note: Like you and Snow, I identify with more than just the above poll options.

ETA: I am unable to adjust the poll.

[ruffryder]

However,

Cissexual is an adjective used in the context of gender issues to describe "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned".[1] Nikki Sullivan and Samantha Murray characterized the term as "a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex".[2] Wikipedia
So I guess a transgender person may identify with cissexual in the sense that after surgery and hormones they identify with the body and identity they are now?

This really is quite interesting how people relate. . although some of it is confusing to me. BUT, I appreciate the thread and I always learn something new in the b-f community! When people explain how they identify then I understand them more. I respect everyone's identity and how they feel about themselves. Everyone has their reasons why.

[Words]

I'm a bit confused too about the difference between transgendered and transexed and why there's no transgendered on/not on hormones option.

How exactly do you differentiate between transexed and transgendered and why no hormone option for the latter?

Words

[DapperButch]

I'm a bit confused too about the difference between transgendered and transexed and why there's no transgendered on/not on hormones option.

How exactly do you differentiate between transexed and transgendered and why no hormone option for the latter?

Words

LOL. Man, I wish I could delete this thread now! (or just been more clear, I guess). :seeingstars: Sorry, folks!

I know that the term transgendered is used as an umbrella term, a term in place of transsexual, and a term to describe someone in the "middle". I am using it to describe someone who does not regard themselves as male or female.

Yes, the part of the word that has gender in it does not really fit then, but I don't know what else to use (I have written a thread on this topic on more than one site). I did not use the term third gendered butch b/c gender is man, woman, butch, femme, etc., to me and I was talking about someone between the sexes (male, female).

Good point about the transgendered butch who uses hormones. I myself have considered them, but do not identify as transsexed.

I am using the term transsexed b/c I was under the impression that the trans community was beginning to prefer that term over transSEXUAL.

It was really hard to come up with ways to describe everyone. Unfortunately, I am not able to add/change.

[The_Lady_Snow]

So what if you're gender fluid???

I'm really curious not being a jerky jerk!

[DapperButch]

So what if you're gender fluid???

I'm really curious not being a jerky jerk!

Could you define that term for me in the confines of this topic (I want to make sure that i understand what you are asking?) ?

[DapperButch]

If people are finding the poll confusing, certainly it is not necessary to use.

The main purpose for me was to talk about what folks thought of the term cissexual/cissexed/cisgendered.

I hear some are ok with it and some hate it.

How about we discuss that?

(The reason I put up the poll was that I was curious to see if our identities mattered in our opinions on it. WAY less important)

[DapperButch]

Payback's a Bitch.

*Looking over at the What do you like on your sandwich Poll*


Smirking,

June

It really, really fucking is!

Never again!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Could you define that term for me in the confines of this topic (I want to make sure that i understand what you are asking?) ?



Gender overlap.

Both male and female.

[Julie]

Now, I am curious as to why in your tags you placed these terms.

bio male, cisgendered, cissexed, transsexed, xy male

Why not the others?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to make you mad, I'll bow out:):rrose:

[DapperButch]

Now, I am curious as to why in your tags you placed these terms.

bio male, cisgendered, cissexed, transsexed, xy male

Why not the others?

I had to delete those because only so many tags are allowed. Since we tend to see more transsexed men at this site versus transsexed women, I figured it would be unlikely those tabs would be looked for.

I do believe I am the FIRST person to get their tags critiqued here!

:dance1:

[DapperButch]

Sorry dude, wasn't trying to make you mad, I'll bow out:):rrose:

Not mad, but thank you.

I have no problem when questions come from a genuine place of a desire for understanding. If that is where you were coming from, then it is all good.

And certainly I have no interest in you bowing out.

[DapperButch]

Getting offline.

If others would like to use this thread they are more than welcome.

Thanks.

[Quintease]

I like bio male/female as in biologically born, with no reference to the now.

I don't like cisgendered at all and I have no discernible reason for that.

I also use XX and XY, but written rather than spoken.

[Linus]

I'm just a transmale on hormones. I do not claim any of the other terms as I do not find they describe me well enough.

[noneoftheabove]

I'm third gendered and I dislike the term cisgender. The wikipedia definition: "Cisgender (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1] I don't think we should be labeling people according to what society thinks is appropriate behavior. I find this definition particularly offensive to women.

[Linus]

Now, I am curious as to why in your tags you placed these terms.

bio male, cisgendered, cissexed, transsexed, xy male

Why not the others?

I had to delete those because only so many tags are allowed. Since we tend to see more transsexed men at this site versus transsexed women, I figured it would be unlikely those tabs would be looked for.

I do believe I am the FIRST person to get their tags critiqued here!

:dance1:

Technical note as well: tags (found at the bottom of the thread) are also generated based on the topic as found in the first post, IIRC.

[BullDog]

I'm third gendered and I dislike the term cisgender. The wikipedia definition: "Cisgender (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1] I don't think we should be labeling people according to what society thinks is appropriate behavior. I find this definition particularly offensive to women.

It doesn't seem to me like anyone here would fit that definition of- an individual's gender identity matching the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex. How many people's gender here actually matches with what society expects of us?

And yes I agree on the woman part. The cost of conformity is high for women (as is non-conformity).

[Greyson]

Good point about the transgendered butch who uses hormones. I myself have considered them, but do not identify as transsexed.

I am using the term transsexed b/c I was under the impression that the trans community was beginning to prefer that term over transSEXUAL.

I don't know why but I am not comfortable referring to myself as a transsexual. I prefer Trans, Transmasculine Butch and/or Transman.

I find that when I use the term cisgender or cissex, outside of people from the B-F online communities, the listening audience do not know what I am talking about. When I use the term "Biomale," they have a look of instant understanding come across their face.

[Venus007]

I am a femme and I use the term woman if they present as a woman and man if they present as a man unless they tell me they prefer some other pronoun and I use what they ask me to.

[DapperButch]

I'm third gendered and I dislike the term cisgender. The wikipedia definition: "Cisgender (or cisgendered) is an adjective used in the context of gender issues and counselling to refer to a class of gender identities formed by a match between an individual's gender identity and the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.[1] I don't think we should be labeling people according to what society thinks is appropriate behavior. I find this definition particularly offensive to women.

It doesn't seem to me like anyone here would fit that definition of- an individual's gender identity matching the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex. How many people's gender here actually matches with what society expects of us?

And yes I agree on the woman part. The cost of conformity is high for women (as is non-conformity).

I agree and this is also the reason why I used the term cissexed in my opening statement and the poll.

I put cisgendered in the tags because that term is often used in place of cissexed.

[T D]

I consider myself a Transman who has both male and female characteristics (I was raised female afterall). I consider my gender and sexuality to be Transman.

Going off to hang out with Snow now.

[DapperButch]

Ok, so I realized that I left out something rather important in the OP to explain the question.

I said:

I am wondering if how we identify impacts what term we like to use when referring to people who are born with XY chromosomes ("males") and XX chromosomes ("females").

It was half a sentence. The whole sentence should read:

I am wondering if how we identify impacts what term we like to use when referring to people who are born with XY chromosomes ("males") and XX chromosomes ("females") who feel that they were born in the right body.

Does that help?

Linus, is it possible to add that to the first post?

[EnderD_503]

I like XX female/XY male best. I use cisgender as well, especially irl where its less awkward than saying "non-trans." If I'm talking about XX females or XY males specifically then I'll typically use those, but if I'm talking about non-trans people in general I find it's easier to just say cis irl.

But on the other hand that presents a problem. Mostly when I'm talking about cis people I'm talking about heteronormative/traditionally heterosexual folks who have no conflict between their reproductive organs/secondary sex features and their internal understanding of their own sex/gender, and I think it can be a whole other kettle of fish if cis is used as a generalization for the rest of the LGB community unless an individual identifies with cis specifically.

I really have come to dislike the terms biofemale and biomale. Biology encompasses more than reproductive organs, and given some of the hypotheses about the development of a fetus as "transsexed" in the womb, I'm not sure the words biomale and biofemale cover that.

[Linus]

Ok, so I realized that I left out something rather important in the OP to explain the question.

I said:

I am wondering if how we identify impacts what term we like to use when referring to people who are born with XY chromosomes ("males") and XX chromosomes ("females").

It was half a sentence. The whole sentence should read:

I am wondering if how we identify impacts what term we like to use when referring to people who are born with XY chromosomes ("males") and XX chromosomes ("females") who feel that they were born in the right body.

Does that help?

Linus, is it possible to add that to the first post?

Done and adjusted. :)

[DapperButch]

Done and adjusted. :)

Thank you so much, Linus.

[NJFemmie]

I am ..... ME.

[Kobi]

Having read this over a few times, I am still confused as to what it is asking.

I am a lesbian who prefers to be called a woman.

I prefer to call others male or female cuz it is simplier.

The only time I tend to want to break it down further is if I am interested
in dating someone.

Is that in one of the poll choices?

[DapperButch]

Having read this over a few times, I am still confused as to what it is asking.

I am a lesbian who prefers to be called a woman.

I prefer to call others male or female cuz it is simplier.

The only time I tend to want to break it down further is if I am interested
in dating someone.

Is that in one of the poll choices?



Hi, Kobi.

The poll is asking

1) how you define

2) what you prefer to call people who are non trans. non trans meaning a person who is born into the correct body. Those people would fit the definition of the term cissexed and the other choices given.

There has been a push from the transsexed/transsexual/trans community to use the term cissexed. There has been some push back from non trans people. I am wondering people's preferences.

[Sparkle]

I think that one of the privileges I experience as a Femme, who has never had conflict with the gender characteristics I was born with, is that I haven't had to give this issue much thought.

I simply have no preference, outside of conversations on here or very specific conversations about gender/gender identity/societal expectations etc. with friends, there is no reason for me to refer to my gender identity as cis, bio or XX.

I wonder... as we continue to explore gender identity and particularly as we push the conversation further in to the mainstream - perhaps (???) we should be on the same page with the terminology that we use when discussing Trans issues, with the realization that discussing the Trans experience may require we compare and contrast it to the __(cis/bio/XX)__ experience.

Should we?

Thanks Dapper, your poll has made me examine my privilege.

I still don't have a preference for one term over another, none feel *right* to me ... but perhaps I should really think about how best to articulate the concept.

[Kobi]

Hi, Kobi.

The poll is asking

1) how you define

2) what you prefer to call people who are non trans. non trans meaning a person who is born into the correct body. Those people would fit the definition of the term cissexed and the other choices given.

There has been a push from the transsexed/transsexual/trans community to use the term cissexed. There has been some push back from non trans people. I am wondering people's preferences.


Hi Dapper,

Maybe my confusion is my choice isnt listed.

I define as female/woman and I prefer to refer to others as male/man or female/woman minus the clarification of how one got there.

[DapperButch]

I think that one of the privileges I experience as a Femme, who has never had conflict with the gender characteristics I was born with, is that I haven't had to give this issue much thought.

I simply have no preference, outside of conversations on here or very specific conversations about gender/gender identity/societal expectations etc. with friends, there is no reason for me to refer to my gender identity as cis, bio or XX.

I wonder... as we continue to explore gender identity and particularly as we push the conversation further in to the mainstream - perhaps (???) we should be on the same page with the terminology that we use when discussing Trans issues, with the realization that discussing the Trans experience may require we compare and contrast it to the __(cis/bio/XX)__ experience.

Should we?

Thanks Dapper, your poll has made me examine my privilege.

I still don't have a preference for one term over another, none feel *right* to me ... but perhaps I should really think about how best to articulate the concept.

Thanks, Sparkle. I appreciate your post.

I did a poor introduction to the topic, but this is where I was trying to go.

It may have made more sense for me to put it into the trans section, but I didn't want to exclude the rest of the site.

When the site first opened a couple of transsexed folks encouraged the use of the term cissexed when speaking about non trans people. I have had some discomfort with the term, but have continuously come up against this memory of preference every time I want to refer to someone who is non trans. I have always said bio male, for example, but now I hesitate with what to use, as I have heard transsexed individuals not like the use of that term. So, that is why I started going with XY male.

It does go back to privilege, I think. And who decides what term to use? You know?

Thanks again, Sparkle.

[Billy]

This poll to ME doesn't make sense ......Because I never saw Myself as female at all , I always saw Myself as male .....And everytime I turn around there is a new word or ID for this or that .....What the fuck is a transsexed ? :|

[DapperButch]

Hi Dapper,

Maybe my confusion is my choice isnt listed.

I define as female/woman and I prefer to refer to others as male/man or female/woman minus the clarification of how one got there.




Hi, Kobi. My guess is you define as a female identified butch, correct?

The second part of the question is if you call people who do not identify as trans, cissexed, bio male or bio female, or xy male and xx female in conversation.

[DapperButch]

This poll to ME doesn't make sense ......Because I never saw Myself as female at all , I always saw Myself as male .....And everytime I turn around there is a new word or ID for this or that .....What the fuck is a transsexed ? :|

Transsexed = transsexual. Some transpeople do not like the term transsexual, so I used the term transsexed out of respect.

[BullDog]

I don't know about Kobi, but I am a butch woman. I don't identify as a female identified butch. I don't use that language. To me female is my biological sex not my gender. I don't like the classification scheme where people divide butches up based on female-identified vs. male identified.

[DapperButch]

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.

ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

[BullDog]

Dapper I am not picking you apart. I just don't id as female identified or male identified.

[Billy]

Transsexed = transsexual. Some transpeople do not like the term transsexual, so I used the term transsexed out of respect.

But transsexed isn't even a word , this is what I mean ..This is something that to me someone just made up trying to be respectful to others , when I now feel disrespected .What I am trying to say here is that perhaps it should have been left at transgendered all down instead of making up a word ....Now with that said I ID as Billy ..

[DapperButch]

But transsexed isn't even a word , this is what I mean ..This is something that to me someone just made up trying to be respectful to others , when I now feel disrespected .What I am trying to say here is that perhaps it should have been left at transgendered all down instead of making up a word ....Now with that said I ID as Billy ..

I'm sorry if you feel disrespected. I did not make up the term transsexed. It is used in the trans community. It has been used on this site and there have been discussions about its use on this site. Trans people on this site have said they prefer this term over transsexual.

So, that is why I used it.

[EnderD_503]

But transsexed isn't even a word , this is what I mean ..This is something that to me someone just made up trying to be respectful to others , when I now feel disrespected .What I am trying to say here is that perhaps it should have been left at transgendered all down instead of making up a word ....Now with that said I ID as Billy ..

Dapper didn't make up the word "transsexed." It's one that's being use increasingly more frequently throughout the trans community.

The reason for it is that the word "transsexual" by nature implies sexuality, when it has nothing to do with sexuality. I think it's important to question why other sexes are deemed as such, and even intersexed is called intersexed instead of intersexual. It would be ridiculous if it was, because being intersexed is not a sexuality. And neither is being trans. By moving toward the popular use of the word transsexed, we move toward removing the stereotypes attached to trans; that 1) being trans is a sexuality and 2) garnering that from the past where being trans was (and in some cases still is) considered to be a mental illness or sexual fetish.

[EnderD_503]

On another note, I don't get the big deal being made in this thread. Yeah, the poll was narrow in its scope as far as including all identities, but that happens all the time with forum polls. I think Dapper even explained hy was limited by the fact that the forum only allows a certain number of poll options, so hy tried to cover the most frequently used identities.

I didn't participate in the poll myself, because I would have liked to be able to choose two of the options listed or have the hormones/no hormones option added to other identities. But it wasn't, no harm no foul. I think the question Dapper actually asked is the important part...especially since there have been posters who have expressed their discomfort with the term cissexed/cisgender on this forum before. I think posters have gotten way too caught up in the poll options and not enough time spent on the actual question at hand...which I think is a good one.

[Billy]

I'm sorry if you feel disrespected. I did not make up the term transsexed. It is used in the trans community. It has been used on this site and there have been discussions about its use on this site.

However, since its use is not all that common, it may have been a better choice to use the term transsexual.


I understand what you where trying to do I really do .......I am not trying to start up a huge debate in your thread ....But I wonder where some of this stuff comes from really and for some reason TRANSSEXED hit Me the wrong way ...If I HAD to make a choice it would be transgendered ..So either way I think that someone will get bent out of shape ....

[betenoire]

People there is actually a programmed limit on how many options can be put into a poll in the forums, so it's simply the nature of the beast that it's impossible for every single answer/combination of answers to be represented.

And I'm just going to go ahead and come out of hiding long enough to say that to me, personally, sitting at my computer desk in Canada - sometimes when I see loads of "but you didn't include blah blah blah" and "but what exactly does this option mean?" and "well I prefer this wording over that wording" it comes across as not-so-subtle shit-stirring. Hey, maybe that's not where everybody is coming from - and if you're not shit-stirring that's great. But like I said, this colour-treated redhead sitting at a desk in a random livingroom in Canada thinks it comes across that way.

Now for my answer to the poll:

I am a "Femme" (of sorts) and I prefer to use no term at all (so I prefer only to say "female" "male" "man" and "woman") but when the nature of the conversation makes it necessary to clarify I prefer to use the term "non-trans" because I think it's cheeky.

(ETA - and before anybody decides to accuse me of dogpiling I am going to go ahead and point out that I had started composing my post at 11:34.)

[BullDog]

I don't even think it's possible to come up with a comprehensive list of who we all are. And I never thought about it before I saw the poll, but when I was pondering it just now, I realized that just about everyone I know has their own definition of who they are.

Except Femmes.

Queer Femme, Femme Lesbian, Femme Top, Daddy, Stone Femme...Uh, am I missing anything?

And Bulldog, I didn't know you didn't ID as a Female Identified Butch! (FIB for short). Butch Woman is cool, and much simpler, actually.

Hang in there Dapper, you assigned yourself a hard task and I don't think you could have realized it at the time. Perhaps some good discussion will continue that will help us all understand each other better :)

Thanks June. I think so. ;) Actually I have said several times I don't id as female identified but I guess it gets lost in the shuffle because that is the predominant classification scheme that people use in online bf communities- female or male id'd. If it is someone's personal identity I am happy to refer to them that way, but as a classification scheme I don't like it. It would be kinda like dividing all femmes into high or low, or stone or non-stone or something- which of course most femmes wouldn't fit into.

To answer the question I am a butch woman and was born female and still am female. I guess I would go with XX and XY. At one point people suggested genetic female and genetic male. That seems ok to me, not sure if it would be widely accepted.

[Kobi]

Hi, Kobi. My guess is you define as a female identified butch, correct?

The second part of the question is if you call people who do not identify as trans, cissexed, bio male or bio female, or xy male and xx female in conversation.


Dapper,

Sparkle's post rang true to me and may explain why I am having so much difficulty with this.

I never experienced a discrepancy between the internal and external manifestations of my gender. I am a female/woman. The struggles others may experience in this area was never part of my experience or mindset or thought process.

I also never experienced any discrepancy between my gender and my sexual orientation. I am a lesbian. It never occured to me to have to or want to define myself as male or female identified. It's kind of like what part of lesbian isnt clear?

The only discrepancies I have run into are the ones where my sense of who I am as a woman and a lesbian conflict with societal expectations/definitions/labels of what a woman and lesbian are.

I feel the same discrepancy within the queer subculture which seems more comfortable using labels/concepts that dont fit who I am as a way to define who I am for whatever purpose it may serve.

In my everyday life, I refer to myself as a lesbian which implies both my gender and sexual orientation. I rarely have the need to label it further.

In everyday life, I refer to others as male or female. It never occured to me to define or have the need to define their journey to male or female. After my exposure to gender issues/discussions on this site, it still seemed more respectful, to me, to refer to the end product, so to speak, rather than the journey when dealing with individuals. Maybe I need to rethink this.

I do see how on a societal level, agreeing on acceptable terms/label/descriptors would be helpful in furthering gender exploration/development/possibilites and integrating them into the prevailing binary system.

[Gemme]

I am femme and I prefer the term femme.

:)

[Quintease]

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.

ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

I'm with you and I understood right away what you were trying to do. I really wish this had turned into a conversation as it it something I am very interested in.

[Quintease]

But maybe we can continue the conversation now. I know every one has their own terminology and it would be nice to see what language we all use.

[Corkey]

I am just what my descriptor oveh there <--------- says. Most of all I am a human being. One can never please all of the people all of the time Dapper.
We're all individuals and as such there just aren't enough descriptors of every one of us. I think your poll is a good example of how we are so far from heteronormative, and this is a good thing. I think defining who we are is an ongoing and fluid thing for many of us.
Yey you for giving it a go!

[AtLast]

You know what? I had a question. I did the best I could. I really am not getting why this is continuing to be picked apart. Seriously.

Linus, could this thread please be closed? All it has become is me explaining why I did what and no discussion is happening.ETA:I certainly don't mind answering questions, but the point of the thread has been lost and I don't see that shifting.

Which is usually what happens among us when we attempt to talk about gender. I'm sorry this turned into a fiasco for you Dapper.

What I have learned from all of the endless discussion about gender identification within our community is that it is just not steadfast- and could be very fluid, or evolving for many of us at any given time. The literature changes all of the time as new studies are published and we see new ways of considering our identities. That feels positive to me because I can gain understanding in new ways.

I am a Female-Identified Butch WOMAN that views the Gender Blended Female Person model as most accurate for how I have and continue to experience myself. This model date back into the 90's. Just fits for me.

Mostly, I try to hear what someone else prefers, which I know you do as well.

[BullDog]

I personally don't think anyone is giving Dapper a hard time. I don't like the butch classification scheme. I never have. Dapper didn't invent it. Other people are not seeing where they fit in as well.

Some have participated in the poll, some haven't. I did not, but I gave my thoughts on the question asked.

[DapperButch]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts. Certainly I could have done better with my explanation as to what I was trying to get to in my opening post.

In the post I focused on explaining the poll and focused on describing our identities (it was actually an attempt to AVOID what happened anyway), but what I really wanted to talk about was the term cissexed and what folks think of the term.

I was thinking back to when it was first discussed, sometime ago starting with Dylan and with other things that were said it seemed as through the greater trans community was seeking that the term start being used instead of bio male/bio female, for example.

Every time I write the term bio male now I wonder if it is insulting to any trans members here. Yet, I have heard non trans folks say often that they don't like the term. That is where I wanted to go with this thread.

BullDog, I appreciate your participation and any additional thoughts you may have about the subject, as I recall you being a non trans person who did not like the term cissexed from way back when it was first discussed. I'd appreciate it if we got away from the continued discussion about the identities I used in the poll. :):deadhorse::)

[Kätzchen]

There has been talk here and there about the term cissexed (and the term cisgendered, but since I am referring to one's sex, I am going to use the term cissexed, exclusively), and if people like the term or don't like the term to refer to themselves or to refer to people who are the opposite of them.

I edited DB's OP and narrowed the focus to what I would like to respond to:

If I understand the parameters you have set forth above, the meaning of the prefix "cis-", to me, implies dominant socially held norms - connoting a heteronormative stance. Simply put: "Cis-sex" - again, to me - means that I identify wholly with the biological order I was born into. I am female - the female of the species. However, my using the term "cis-sex" is not to be confused or conflated to mean anything that might be associated with "cis-sexual," as use of the term cis-sexual, to me, implies that a person identifies with dominant socially held views about sexual orientation exhibiting heteronormative dimensions. To clarify further on the terms "cis-sex" and "cis-sexual" - I am not comfortable nor do I prefer to identify wholly with either term - except that for the fact that I am comfortable with being female.

However, the non-violent anarchist in me parts ways with the term "cis-gendered" because I do not identify with dominant socially held views of performative gender, because gender is performed in socialized ways: For example, if I were to say that I am a woman, then as a woman, I might take on the behaviors of what being a woman means at a macro (larger scaled) level. But at a micro- level, I don't take on all the typical, generally understood, aspects of what being a woman means.


To me, I wonder all the time about the problematic issues that seemingly are tied to terms of identity and tinker with my own perception held about said terms and the interconnections between identity, power, privilege and control (social or personal).

[DapperButch]

I edited DB's OP and narrowed the focus to what I would like to respond to:

If I understand the parameters you have set forth above, the meaning of the prefix "cis-", to me, implies dominant socially held norms - connoting a heteronormative stance. Simply put: "Cis-sex" - again, to me - means that I identify wholly with the biological order I was born into. I am female - the female of the species. However, my using the term "cis-sex" is not to be confused or conflated to mean anything that might be associated with "cis-sexual," as use of the term cis-sexual, to me, implies that a person identifies with dominant socially held views about sexual orientation exhibiting heteronormative dimensions. To clarify further on the terms "cis-sex" and "cis-sexual" - I am not comfortable nor do I prefer to identify wholly with either term - except that for the fact that I am comfortable with being female.

However, the non-violent anarchist in me parts ways with the term "cis-gendered" because I do not identify with dominant socially held views of performative gender, because gender is performed in socialized ways: For example, if I were to say that I am a woman, then as a woman, I might take on the behaviors of what being a woman means at a macro (larger scaled) level. But at a micro- level, I don't take on all the typical, generally understood, aspects of what being a woman means.


To me, I wonder all the time about the problematic issues that seemingly are tied to terms of identity and tinker with my own perception held about said terms and the interconnections between identity, power, privilege and control (social or personal).

Any narrowing or expanding of the discussion is appreciated!

Great post. I really appreciate what you wrote above and hear what you are saying here. It makes sense to me.

In the same way, that is why I believe some transpeople are preferring transsexed over transsexual, because it is about their sex (similar to the intersexed population, as Ender mentioned).

I do wonder if we will see the definition of these terms change or shift overtime (or narrow or open) as we have seen the many definitions connected to transgender.

[Daywalker]

Gender Neutral ~ Butch ~> Hippy


Free of explicit or implicit reference to gender or sex, as is the
term police officer (instead of policewoman or policeman)
or the term crewed (instead of manned).


ie; Have always used Child or kid in place of the Girl/Boy when
referencing myself in tales of my youngest years. While I can
acknowlegde both, I don't see either. Been that way as long
as I can remember. Within our Community I have preferenced
Hy for pronoun but I don't machete peoples day to
pieces if out in the Gen Pop I get she'd.

I don't actually think while meandering though life that
I present with either. But that's my perception,
the personal one. I just don't run mah
world according to Gender
(or Garp, great flick).

There's been a time or three I've had the audacity to allow my mind
to be fancied with an internal philosophical circus rambling...one of
them includes the preposterous idea that if Females and Males were
equal in the Physical strength arena from the beginning of our
Species, how much different things would be today.
:thinking:

It could take me on hours of pondering through all the
leaves n branches of that Hypothetical Hooplah.
:hamactor:

Anyway, now I've completely fogotten what I
was gonna post in the first place.

Crap.
:|

I'm wiped out today, what with fighting the
vacuum vortex Rapture tunnels n all.
:rainsing:

Surely the thought will find its way back.

:weedsmoke:

:daywalker:

[BullDog]

I do realize the conversation has been more heavily weighted towards identity than which terms are preferred and this is frustrating to some people. However, I actually do think there is a reason this is occurring.

I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea.

As to polls, Linus tried to start one on religion and even after he maxxed out people still were coming up with more. There was also a little scuffle on whether or not Catholics were considered Christians. Oh and I was one of the pain in the ass people asking whether mustard could be considered a sandwich spread (as opposed to Sandwich Spread) in the great Mayo-Miracle Whip debate. Queers can be a pain in the ass.

[Martina]

i am femme, and i use cisgendered or cismale or cisfemale because Dylan basically talked me into, it thread after thread. i was convinced that while there is a spectrum of discomfort with assigned gender, at some point there is a difference between those of us who can live with the loose fit of how we experience ourselves and the gender category assigned to us and those who never could and never will be able to.

[Rockinonahigh]

Ive sorta read thrue this thred and im more confused that when I started.So in that light I will say that im osof stone butch who over the years have mellowed out about all this labeling buisness..if the shoe fits wear it with pride as well as being all who u want to be in your life.Remember life changes,I am a testimonial to that.I agree with Mr.Day on so many levals...right on.

[julieisafemme]

I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender?

If so, you could be cisgendered.

Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much.

[AtLast]

snip-

[QUOTE=BullDog;344115]

I think one of the reasons why so many queers have issues with the terms cisgender and cissexed is because many of us don't believe our gender and sex and the relationship between the two is all that clear cut or straight forward. I believe that's one of the reasons why we have so many different identities and why they aren't so easy to classify. So when it is suggested that our sex or gender is in alignment with what is socially acceptable many of us chafe at that idea.

QUOTE] snip

No, it isn't for me at all- not clear-cut. Not even close. That is why it is important to be open to new data and theory that finally takes into consideration how gender and sex is very complex.

When I talk with my intergendered cousin and her experiences throughout her 70 plus years- I am completely humbled when it comes to this entire topic.

[BullDog]

I agree with Martina. I have never in all my years experienced a moment of dysphoria or confusion regarding my body and my internal experience of gender. The binary is bad if it is the only thing used to define gender. BUT some people do fit into that binary in a gender sense. I am as cissexed and cisgendered as you can get! This became even more clear to me in talking to my partner about his experience of his gender as a child. My queerness is directly related to who I want to partner with. That is the only way I break the expected behavior for my gender really. I meet the societal expectations of my gender as well. I see it like this:

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

Do you also, for the most part, meet the societal expectations of that gender?

If so, you could be cisgendered.

Bulldog I know you might agree with the first question but would not agree with the second. So it makes sense to me that you not define yourself as cisgendered/sexed. But can you see based on my questions and my answers of yes to both that the term fits quite well for me? It is very specific in how it differentiates my experience of gender from that of my partner's. That is why I like it so much.

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment.

If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences.

[julieisafemme]

Do you feel aligned with your biological sex and your assigned gender?

I feel I am a female and woman, but no I am not aligned in the way I was assigned to it by my society and culture. I have done my own self alignment.

If the terms fit for you then of course I respect your opinion of yourself and your life experiences.

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

[Toughy]

societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman

I think that depends on what society/culture you were born to even within the US.

I come from the desert southwest (southeast new mexico). Women wore pants, worked along side men on the farm/ranch. The rule of thumb is: 'the butcher she looks, the more likely she is straight'. The expectation from farm/ranch culture was that women could and should be able to do what men did. And men should be able to do what women did. I was not raised with 'women's roles' and 'men's roles'. I was in for a hella shock when I went to college and ran into this other idea about women.

That is not to say I did not understand I was different. I knew I was not like other girls/women..........even the butch looking ones. I was entirely insecure in the girl-boy stuff. My first crushes were on girls even tho I could not articulate that crush. But I did know it was different and I was different.

So it's a mixed bag for me............but don't call me cis-sexed and/or cis-gendered.

I think the really confusing part is how 'gender' and 'sex' are interchangeable except when they are not.

[LipstickLola]

My ID is none of the above, and yet I am here :)

Interesting though!

[AtLast]

I think that depends on what society/culture you were born to even within the US.

I come from the desert southwest (southeast new mexico). Women wore pants, worked along side men on the farm/ranch. The rule of thumb is: 'the butcher she looks, the more likely she is straight'. The expectation from farm/ranch culture was that women could and should be able to do what men did. And men should be able to do what women did. I was not raised with 'women's roles' and 'men's roles'. I was in for a hella shock when I went to college and ran into this other idea about women.

That is not to say I did not understand I was different. I knew I was not like other girls/women..........even the butch looking ones. I was entirely insecure in the girl-boy stuff. My first crushes were on girls even tho I could not articulate that crush. But I did know it was different and I was different.

So it's a mixed bag for me............but don't call me cis-sexed and/or cis-gendered.

I think the really confusing part is how 'gender' and 'sex' are interchangeable except when they are not.

Yes- very confusing!


I had a little bit of what you describe when I lived as a teen in a "mountain town"- Yet, felt like you did. I was not the same kind of butch as these other women due to my sexuality, not my gender presentation.

This is just not a simple subject area. Sometimes I wonder why we think it can be wrapped-up into a one size fits all paradigm. Both gender & sexuality are elastic and fluid to me and defy simplicity.

[noneoftheabove]

hmmm i guess what bothers me most about the cis terms is their usage. I don't have problems with anyone's personal ID's. In fact, i think the cis terms can be quite helpful in explaining an individual's experience with gender when used as a self-ID. I disagree with the use of cis(anything) as a blanket term for those who do not ID as trans. Cis implies a knowledge of someone's self identity and we cannot know this just by looking (which is how this labeling usually happens). The other terms don't imply anything about how one views their own body or gender. Personally though, i use non trans(sexed or gender). I think that I see things this way because neither cis or trans fits for me.

[BullDog]

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

I am not sure how you can separate the two questions out. Our internal sense of self is still influenced by the culture and society we grow up in. We learn what it means to become female and woman by growing up and what we are being taught. I also do agree with Toughy that it can vary depending on where you grow up and also your family and other factors in terms of how your understanding develops in terms of what it means to be a woman, female etc.

When I was a child I wanted to be a boy. I had crushes on little girls and liked boys things way more than girls. I remember when my little girl friends would invite me over to play barbies and I would be bored to tears. I would rather be outside playing sports, riding my bike, reading a book, anything but play with dolls. I hated wearing dresses. I don't remember wanting to have a male body necessarily, but I did want to be a boy. I was a tomboy and this worked pretty well for me until adolescence. Then when I was in my teens I discovered what a lesbian was and it clicked for me and I didn't want to be a boy anymore.

My sense of my female body is much different than what I have been taught. I do feel my butch cock is an extension of myself and my ideal chest would not involve breasts. So I have made adjustments in my mind to align myself. Perhaps I will some day have chest surgery or perhaps not. I do not pack most of the time. I don't need to. My butch cock is there whether I am wearing it or not.

[greeneyedgrrl]

i think this thread is a great idea...

it'll be interesting to see how ppl respond, if they can get past the poll! ;-)

i am femme and id as cisgender, i use because i see it has helping to make the invisible privileges i was born into visible, not just to other cisgendered folks, but to myself as well. i see it as a way also to challenge the idea that the dominant culture's expectations of gender expression is what is "normal" and anything outside that box is "deviant" or "other". to adapt the old hetero quote: cisgender expression isn't normal, it's just common.

[greeneyedgrrl]

It does go back to privilege, I think. And who decides what term to use? You know?



I totally agree! Transsexual/transgendered was not a label that was originally introduced by the people whom it was intended to label; it was a label assigned to people by the dominant culture who had the ability to force a label onto a group of people. I think that the only reason this is a debate right now is b/c cis attempts to label non-trans folks in a way that doesn't set us up as the norm, and the discomfort comes from it not feeling like the "normal" id. i needed a lot of dialogue around it before i felt like i understood and was comfortable using it, privilege can easily be discounted by those who have it.

[DapperButch]

I totally agree! Transsexual/transgendered was not a label that was originally introduced by the people whom it was intended to label; it was a label assigned to people by the dominant culture who had the ability to force a label onto a group of people. I think that the only reason this is a debate right now is b/c cis attempts to label non-trans folks in a way that doesn't set us up as the norm, and the discomfort comes from it not feeling like the "normal" id. i needed a lot of dialogue around it before i felt like i understood and was comfortable using it, privilege can easily be discounted by those who have it.

Great post! Great point!

[AtLast]

I totally agree! Transsexual/transgendered was not a label that was originally introduced by the people whom it was intended to label; it was a label assigned to people by the dominant culture who had the ability to force a label onto a group of people. I think that the only reason this is a debate right now is b/c cis attempts to label non-trans folks in a way that doesn't set us up as the norm, and the discomfort comes from it not feeling like the "normal" id. i needed a lot of dialogue around it before i felt like i understood and was comfortable using it, privilege can easily be discounted by those who have it.

Absolutely!

[foxyshaman]

Until I started on line with BF communities I had NO IDEA there extent of different identities. I don't use any term "cis" simply because until this particular thread I never really understood the distinction. I do know so... THANK YOU.

I consider myself a third gender, but I come at it from a shamanic perspective. I had no idea until I started my research that shamans were and are considered to be the third gender. I felt like I finally had a reference point to what I had referred to myself consistently over the years. Then I came to BF communities and found out there was another way to determine third gender. I have found that my referring to myself as the third gender is often poopooed or not given any notice <shoulder shrug>. Doesn't change it, just interesting to 'feel' the response.

It has been a LLLLOOOONNNGGGG journey for me to embrace my feminine side. I never had any problem with my female gender, I have never had gender dysphoria, and I am grateful for that. I was revising a teaching I had done from 2006 to teach in early 2011. In my notes was a reference to wanting to/wishing to find my feminine side... and totally forgot that... and then voila here I am 2011 and have found myself not only finding my feminine side, but lovingly embracing it.

So... I did not participate in the poll because I did not understand it at first glance. now I understand what the OP was after. I respect the poll, and certainly respect each posters opinions and thoughts.

I just wanted to share a foxes thoughts...

[Leigh]

I'm an FTM and I personally ID as Male, but I don't really go into Bio or Cis cuz I guess I just see Myself as a regular guy :-)

[Andrew, Jr.]

I too am a FTM, and see myself just as a guy. It is other people who seem to have issues with my id from what I have learned over time.

[AtLast]

Ok that makes sense. So is it the societal expectations of how women are supposed to behave that you don't align with? That is the second part of the question and I, based on what you have posted, did not think that was true for you. I guess what I am trying to understand is that absent of societal expectations of how you should behave as a woman, do you feel aligned with your body and your internal sense of gender? Even if you do you still don't have to accept or use cisgender!! I am just asking.

The other reason I like the term is that it brought out the privilege that I experience in not having ever experienced gender dysphoria or going against what society expects of my gender. It was something I had never thought about or was aware of. I know this is just my experience and there are many people who are aware of this. I remember in another thread about this Heart said that as a feminist she has been contemplating her gender for a long time.

That probably comes being active during the Second Wave as the movement questioned the binary. This kicked in severly as the Gay Rights movement began as a related offshoot. And that could be why and how feminism was rejected by middle and upper middle-class (mainly, white) women that did fall within the range of what was considered "normal" for women- wife & mother. Tragic, really. But, what I am stating here is my personal feelings really having been an activist during that time. Heart will have to address this.

When I look back, I may not have had the terminology, but in the midst of questioning my sexuality, I questioned my gender. I never felt that I was male, but I sure knew I wasn't "of the norm" as a woman and a female and that heterosexuality (then, bi-sexuality) just wasn't who I was. Even in the kind of culture I was living in early on (the "mountain town"). For me, sexuality and gender identity was intermingled for a very long time.

Consequently, cis-gendered or cis-sexed doesn't work for me as an individual. However, I can see where it does for many people. Something else that has never fit is putting down women that do fit into the binary. It seems like not just a few femmes have been subjected to down right cruelty due to that kind of thinking because they may "appear" to fit the stereotype of the binary feminine or woman/female.

All in all- Queer seems to be the best fitting term for what I feel internally and about myself externally. But, I see the cis-gender/sexed theories can have a positive impact on society. We just have to get out of the confines of the binary system as it has stood for so long. Mainly, I want for all of us to be accepted as we are.

[Chazz]

However, Cissexual is an adjective used in the context of gender issues to describe "people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their mental and physical sexes as being aligned".[1]

"Aligned"?!?! ....I guess that leaves me out of the cissexual panoply, then. As a lesbian butch I've never been "aligned" with any standard or norm.

Nikki Sullivan and Samantha Murray characterized the term as "a way of drawing attention to the unmarked norm, against which trans* is identified, in which a person feels that their gender identity matches their body/sex".[2] Wikipedia
So I guess a transgender person may identify with cissexual in the sense that after surgery and hormones they identify with the body and identity they are now?


"Unmarked norm"? ....Who's norm? Heterosexuals? Transgendered people? Transsexuals? Gay men? Femmes? Butches? Gender theorists? Feminists? Christionists? Taoists? Dalmatians?

"Against"? As in by way of a comparison?

I'm not sure how it's possible to compare lesbian butches with trans/gendered people. They are different identities - not the opposite of one another. You can compare apples with apples, but not bananas.

Sullivan and Murray's characterization leaves me cold. Lesbian butch is not a "norm" by any criteria I'm aware of, nor does it confer any real or imagined privilege.

I totally agree! Transsexual/transgendered was not a label that was originally introduced by the people whom it was intended to label; it was a label assigned to people by the dominant culture who had the ability to force a label onto a group of people. I think that the only reason this is a debate right now is b/c cis attempts to label non-trans folks in a way that doesn't set us up as the norm, and the discomfort comes from it not feeling like the "normal" id. i needed a lot of dialogue around it before i felt like i understood and was comfortable using it, privilege can easily be discounted by those who have it.

Cisgender privilege is a misnomer. Conformity isn't a privilege - it's it's a self-abrogating concession.

[greeneyedgrrl]

Cisgender privilege is a misnomer. Conformity isn't a privilege - it's it's a self-abrogating concession.

i can see your point. conformity can definitely be giving up your authenticity, and power.
i disagree that it is always that and i believe that there are some benefits to be had as well by those who conform. i do what feels right to me. does that mean i follow all of the norms or that i'm a virgin/whore wrapped up in a pretty package for your pleasure?? ...hells no. do i identify myself as aligned with the body i was born into? yes. does that give me certain rights? i would argue that yah, it does, unless you are living completely outside of society (in which case that's a whole other story). but because my sex aligns with the way i see myself, and the way that society views me i get to do things like get a job, i don't have to try to pass for someone i am not in order to feel or be safe, i don't have to explain my sex/gender to people, i can get a driver license/passport that id's me the way i want to be id'd (without any hassle or red tape), i get to use a bathroom without fear of having security called or getting beat up. basic stuff. things that should not be denied any group of people, but are. that's all i'm sayin.

[Chazz]

i can see your point. conformity can definitely be giving up your authenticity, and power.

The problem with conformity is, we don't always know we're doing it, and/or we call it by the wrong name, unintentionally or by design.

Even "being alternative", "gender queer", "fringe", "going G", yada, yada, can be a form of conformity. The conformity within my biker community comes to mind. (Accountants during the work week; Hell's Angeles on the weekend.)


i disagree that it is always that and i believe that there are some benefits to be had as well by those who conform.

Of course conformity has a pay-off, otherwise why do it? However, conformity always comes at a price, too.


i do what feels right to me. does that mean i follow all of the norms or that i'm a virgin/whore wrapped up in a pretty package for your pleasure?? ...hells no. do i identify myself as aligned with the body i was born into? yes. does that give me certain rights? i would argue that yah, it does, unless you are living completely outside of society (in which case that's a whole other story). but because my sex aligns with the way i see myself, and the way that society views me i get to do things like get a job, i don't have to try to pass for someone i am not in order to feel or be safe, i don't have to explain my sex/gender to people, i can get a driver license/passport that id's me the way i want to be id'd (without any hassle or red tape), i get to use a bathroom without fear of having security called or getting beat up. basic stuff. things that should not be denied any group of people, but are. that's all i'm sayin.

Well, you can argue anything, if you've a mind to. :)

Being aligned with the body you're born into isn't a "privilege". "Privilege" is a social construct - an arbitrary, subjective reality based on social norms and convention. You either buy into a given social construct (any construct), or you don't.

Butches do not have gender "privilege". They do not conform to the gender consructs of this culture be they female identified butches or not.

And btw, the opposite of "privileged" isn't deprivileged - it's unprivileged. Few women in this culture are "privileged". The LGBTQs should take care not to reinforce dominant culture myths that work against, or divide us.

Deprivileged = the loss of social privilege; to lose an advantage
Unprivileged = never being socially advantaged in the first place. (Butches and most women.)

PS: Foot binding was considered a gender norm among the "privileged" class in China not so long ago. Genital mutilation is still a norm in certain cultures. These practices are seen as making a woman more attractive and desirable. I suppose they advantage women who align with these practices. But, I'm loath to say they confer "privilege".

[AtLast]

i can see your point. conformity can definitely be giving up your authenticity, and power.
i disagree that it is always that and i believe that there are some benefits to be had as well by those who conform. i do what feels right to me. does that mean i follow all of the norms or that i'm a virgin/whore wrapped up in a pretty package for your pleasure?? ...hells no. do i identify myself as aligned with the body i was born into? yes. does that give me certain rights? i would argue that yah, it does, unless you are living completely outside of society (in which case that's a whole other story). but because my sex aligns with the way i see myself, and the way that society views me i get to do things like get a job, i don't have to try to pass for someone i am not in order to feel or be safe, i don't have to explain my sex/gender to people, i can get a driver license/passport that id's me the way i want to be id'd (without any hassle or red tape), i get to use a bathroom without fear of having security called or getting beat up. basic stuff. things that should not be denied any group of people, but are. that's all i'm sayin.


I certainly see your points- yet, as a woman, you (and I as a butch woman) are more likely in this society to be sexually or phyically and emotionally assualted. Statistics demonstrate this. Just as there are higher rates of abuse and violence against transwomen within the tran population. So, being recognized as female, no matter the internal beliefs (or external presentation as observed by a potential abuser) of an individual continues (unfortunately) to be more dangerous across the board.

Add race, ethnicity and class to the mix and rates of abuse and violence against women (or those perceived as women) increase further.

[Chazz]

I certainly see your points- yet, as a woman, you (and I as a butch woman) are more likely in this society to be sexually or phyically and emotionally assualted. Statistics demonstrate this. Just as there are higher rates of abuse and violence against transwomen within the tran population. So, being recognized as female, no matter the internal beliefs (or external presentation as observed by a potential abuser) of an individual continues (unfortunately) to be more dangerous across the board.

Add race, ethnicity and class to the mix and rates of abuse and violence against women (or those perceived as women) increase further.

Yes, AtLastHome. No category of human being is more mistreated than females.

And, as you say: "race, ethnicity and class" statistically increases the likelihood of exploitation, abuse and violence.

[greeneyedgrrl]

The problem with conformity is, we don't always know we're doing it, and/or we call it by the wrong name, unintentionally or by design.

I agree, all the more reason to make it visible my friend!

Even "being alternative", "gender queer", "fringe", "going G", yada, yada, can be a form of conformity. The conformity within my biker community comes to mind. (Accountants during the work week; Hell's Angeles on the weekend.)

exactly! ..if you're not conforming to one group, you are to another, and not necessarily all at once.

Of course conformity has a pay-off, otherwise why do it? However, conformity always comes at a price, too.

Yes... of course, just as anything does, ain't nuthin in life that's free


Well, you can argue anything, if you've a mind to. :)

I can, and do, sounds like you do too! LOL

Being aligned with the body you're born into isn't a "privilege". "Privilege" is a social construct - an arbitrary, subjective reality based on social norms and convention. You either buy into a given social construct (any construct), or you don't.

agreed, it is arbitrary, and subjective and socially constructed, but it exists whether i "buy into" the construct or not (man if i could make shit disappear just by not buying in, no more tea party for sure). until enough people stop buying in, this is the system we're stuck with. i see it in the radical queer community as well, the same gender bullshit that the heteros buy into, femmes are expected to behave in certain ways as are butches etc. it's pervasive.. it's internalized and i look at things that bring visibility to to the invisible "dominant culture" in a conscious way, with intent, as a way, (albeit slow), to change that. nothing would happen if it wasn't acknowledged.

Butches do not have gender "privilege". They do not conform to the gender consructs of this culture be they female identified butches or not.

i id as femme, so i'll let ya handle that one... ;)

And btw, the opposite of "privileged" isn't deprivileged - it's unprivileged. Few women in this culture are "privileged". The LGBTQs should take care not to reinforce dominant culture myths that work against, or divide us.

Deprivileged = the loss of social privilege; to lose an advantage
Unprivileged = never being socially advantaged in the first place. (Butches and most women.)

agreed...although i'm guessing that your idea of how to go about it differs from mine, and i'd love to argue, i mean hear about that... ;) as for the women not being privileged in the first place, i think it depends who you are talking about in relation to whom. not sure why the vocabulary lesson...but ok. :)

PS: Foot binding was considered a gender norm among the "privileged" class in China not so long ago. Genital mutilation is still a norm in certain cultures. These practices are seen as making a woman more attractive and desirable. I suppose they advantage women who align with these practices. But, I'm loath to say they confer "privilege"

i am not even going to tough that one, that's got loaded written ALL over it.

i'm feelin a lil snarky tonight, just outta finals! woo hoo! :seeingstars::blink::cheesy:

[AtLast]

Something that is going through my mind about the concept/construct of comformity and gender variation or fluidity has to do with when a couple a trans partner (or both could be) takes on heteronormative conformity by emulating being "straight."

These thoughts came to me while watching the Chaz Bono doc- when they said- "We are straight, now." First of all, not every couple with trans participants/partner(s) adopts being straight as it is commonly defined.

Perhaps that is the problem- definitions that are static and have no elasticity? Or maybe, the hetero-normative construct continues to be so instilled in society and so potent, we just can't shake it.

OK, I do not have any issues with anyone adopting a straight couple persona if that is what they want. I do, however, wish that this was not a conclusion jumped to- within or outside of the couplehood.

I hope I am posing this clearly... Mainly, I think we often fall prey to constructs of social conformity that are just plain false.

[Corkey]

In my mind if I were ever to transition, big if, it would be my id in flux, not my partners. Just a thought.

[AtLast]

In my mind if I were ever to transition, big if, it would be my id in flux, not my partners. Just a thought.

Makes sense to me and one reason I wish people didn't have hetero-normative labels bestowed upon them. Or, assumptions.

[Chazz]

i'm feelin a lil snarky tonight, just outta

You don't sound snarky, you sound incisive. Incisive is good ! :)

You're way better at this computer quote stuff than me, but I'll give it a shot.


CHAZZ: The problem with conformity is, we don't always know we're doing it, and/or we call it by the wrong name, unintentionally or by design.

GREENEYEDGRRL: I agree, all the more reason to make it visible my friend!

CHAZZ: Yes, but "There are non so blind as those who will not see" and some people are deeply invested in not seeing.


CHAZZ: Even "being alternative", "gender queer", "fringe", "going G", yada, yada, can be a form of conformity. The conformity within my biker community comes to mind. (Accountants during the work week; Hell's Angeles on the weekend.)

GREENEYEDGRRL: exactly! ..if you're not conforming to one group, you are to another, and not necessarily all at once.

CHAZZ: The alternative to conformity isn't non-conformity. Nor is it about the superficial (i.e gender uniforms, posturing, or mimicry with a mythical twist). It's about self-awareness and self-reconciliation both of which are entirely inside jobs.


CHAZZ: Being aligned with the body you're born into isn't a "privilege". "Privilege" is a social construct - an arbitrary, subjective reality based on social norms and convention. You either buy into a given social construct (any construct), or you don't.

GREENEYEDGRRL: agreed, it is arbitrary, and subjective and socially constructed, but it exists whether i "buy into" the construct or not (man if i could make shit disappear just by not buying in, no more tea party for sure). until enough people stop buying in, this is the system we're stuck with. i see it in the radical queer community as well, the same gender bullshit that the heteros buy into, femmes are expected to behave in certain ways as are butches etc. it's pervasive.. it's internalized and i look at things that bring visibility to to the invisible "dominant culture" in a conscious way, with intent, as a way, (albeit slow), to change that. nothing would happen if it wasn't acknowledged.

CHAZZ: Yes, I see "the same gender BS the heteros buy into" in the LGBTQ community, too. If you call that stuff out, you risk being vilified or starting a "gender war". The question then becomes how to dialog about these things without hitting a wailing wall of denial and blind complicity. Especially since the operative these days is that feelings are facts when, of course, they are not.


CHAZZ: Butches do not have gender "privilege". They do not conform to the gender constructs of this culture be they female identified butches or not.

GREENEYEDGRRL: i id as femme, so i'll let ya handle that one...

CHAZZ: Deal.


CHAZZ: And btw, the opposite of "privileged" isn't deprivileged - it's unprivileged. Few women in this culture are "privileged". The LGBTQs should take care not to reinforce dominant culture myths that work against, or divide us.

Deprivileged = the loss of social privilege; to lose an advantage
Unprivileged = never being socially advantaged in the first place. (Butches and most women.)

GREENEYEDGRRL: agreed...although i'm guessing that your idea of how to go about it differs from mine, and i'd love to argue, i mean hear about that... as for the women not being privileged in the first place, i think it depends who you are talking about in relation to whom. not sure why the vocabulary lesson...but ok.

CHAZZ: Maybe my ideas are different from yours, maybe they are, at least in part. I do agree that "privilege" subscribes to the laws of relativity. And, not knowing you have "privilege" does not divest you from having it or (ab)using it.... I do see gender constructs as inculcated manifestations of power, control and dominance.... Those "who will not see" benefit from that even at their own expense. Life is paradoxical like that.

The "vocabulary lesson" was an attempt to reframe a misnomer. There is a tendency within the community to establish a hierarchy of oppression - everyone loses in that miscalculation. Hierarchies are a dominant culture artifact, so is misnomer-meistering. Both head critical thinking off at the pass.


CHAZZ: PS: Foot binding was considered a gender norm among the "privileged" class in China not so long ago. Genital mutilation is still a norm in certain cultures. These practices are seen as making a woman more attractive and desirable. I suppose they advantage women who align with these practices. But, I'm loath to say they confer "privilege".

GREENEYEDGRRL: i am not even going to tough that one, that's got loaded written ALL over it.

CHAZZ: OK, I'll touch it. It really doesn't serve us to become duplicating dupes. Broadly stated, men change the world, women change themselves to fit in.

[Quintease]

Something that is going through my mind about the concept/construct of comformity and gender variation or fluidity has to do with when a couple a trans partner (or both could be) takes on heteronormative conformity by emulating being "straight."

These thoughts came to me while watching the Chaz Bono doc- when they said- "We are straight, now." First of all, not every couple with trans participants/partner(s) adopts being straight as it is commonly defined.

Perhaps that is the problem- definitions that are static and have no elasticity? Or maybe, the hetero-normative construct continues to be so instilled in society and so potent, we just can't shake it.

OK, I do not have any issues with anyone adopting a straight couple persona if that is what they want. I do, however, wish that this was not a conclusion jumped to- within or outside of the couplehood.

I hope I am posing this clearly... Mainly, I think we often fall prey to constructs of social conformity that are just plain false.

I'm totally in agreement with you, why be straight when we already know there is an alternative? But what is straight? There are a lot of male/female couples who are, in their own way, queer. Straight couples fill the ranks of swinger parties, alternative clubs, bisexual websites, gay clubs and BDSM. I accept that it's possible to be into alternative sexual practices and be narrow-minded, but still it puts you into contact with people other than your normal social circle.

My bf considers himself a straight man, all he ever wanted was to be a normal guy. Of course his gf is queer, half his friends are queer and he's completely comfortable in a queer environment. None of that detracts from the fact that he's a normal guy who goes to work and fancies girls. Isn't that what us LGBT's have been fighting for all this time, the right to be as normal as the next guy?

[J. Mason]

Hmmm bumpin this thread up.