Outrageous!

[always2late]

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/mother-41324-search-adult.html

Has anyone else seen this story? A 95 year old woman with leukemia traveling with her daughter is forced to remove her Depends undergarment to be searched. I am so outraged I can barely write coherent sentences.

[Novelafemme]

I read this last night and was FUMING!!!

[scootebaby]

I actually just finished reading it on Yahoo. My initial reaction was"wtf--r u serious". HOWEVER--after some thought though i was thinking that as much as i would hate that my child/granparent/elderly parent or even myself might have to go thru that i would prefer them/me to endure this(given it is very private and respectful and professional) than risk any possible attack. Sadly,the prospect of children or elderly being used to achieve a group or person's goal is not beyond the realm of possibility. I know very little about the attempts thus far,but i have heard of the shoe guy and the underwear guy--so it is not a stretch to assume someone would stoop to such a level as to use any group of ppl that are usually looked at as harmless.

AGAIN-- i stress it would be difficult to have happen,but as long as it is done in a very professional manner i would understand!

ETA--hell everytime Jo/we fly either her or Connor get picked for random searches--and as much of an inconvenience that is they/we deal with it bc we know its just a safety precaution!

[Kobi]

I am still waiting for the day when someone tries to smuggle a device or pieces thereof by shoving it up their butt.

Then all air passengers will be expected to undergo free rectals and pelvic exams!

Its a sad day when the elderly have to remove diapers and kids get to be molested by the government. Whats next...searching colostomy and urostomy bags? Maybe having to pull out your tampon? How about your IUD?

These searches do not make me feel safer. They make me feel like a prisoner in my own country.

[Novelafemme]

I flew home to Buffalo in late October of 2001 with my oldest daughter who was 3&1/2 and a newborn who was 3 months. I still remember security making me strip down Sophia so they could check her diaper and disassemble her car seat. It was freezing cold in the airport and they wouldn't let me cover her with a blanket. I had an antiquated double breast pump since she couldn't nurse properly due to being severely tongue-tied and security threatened to take it from me. They didn't believe it truly was what I said it was. My experience pales in comparison to what this woman and her daughter went through. Shudder!!

[Andrea]

If TSA had stopped one terrorist I might consider what they do as a safety precaution, but even TSA has admitted they would not have caught the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber using today's enhanced screenings. In both cases it was the passengers on the plane that stopped them.

Since 9/11 (the oft quoted reason we need TSA) planes have been outfitted with impenetrable doors to the pilots. That is the best security move possible.

If you don't already know the stories about the recent 'strip searches' where people have been told to remove their outer clothing to resolve issues, or the stories about silly items being 'voluntarily surrendered' (search plastic hammer), or the inconsiderate ways those in wheelchairs or other medical issues have been treated, please educate yourselves.

Our constitutional rights are being eroded by Homeland Security, TSA, the Patriot Act, etc. To treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent goes against our constitutional rights.

Andrea

[JustJo]

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/mother-41324-search-adult.html

Has anyone else seen this story? A 95 year old woman with leukemia traveling with her daughter is forced to remove her Depends undergarment to be searched. I am so outraged I can barely write coherent sentences.

Honestly, from the article it sounds like the TSA did as much as they could to preserve this woman's privacy. They didn't do this in public. They took her to a private room.

Yes, it's terrible that this woman had to endure this. However, I would not put it past a terrorist to "use" a senior in a wheelchair to further their aims. They use children...why not the sick and elderly.

Her daughter is offended that she was treated this way....and I understand. However, this same daughter didn't bother to ensure that her mother had a clean Depends, and a spare, while traveling. Somehow, I'm almost more offended by that lack of care and concern on the part of people who supposedly love her than I am by the TSA following security protocols.



I am still waiting for the day when someone tries to smuggle a device or pieces thereof by shoving it up their butt.

Then all air passengers will be expected to undergo free rectals and pelvic exams!

Its a sad day when the elderly have to remove diapers and kids get to be molested by the government. Whats next...searching colostomy and urostomy bags? Maybe having to pull out your tampon? How about your IUD?

These searches do not make me feel safer. They make me feel like a prisoner in my own country.



Honestly Kobi? My mother has a colostomy bag. She has been pat-searched and asked what it was. It was very gently handled to ensure that it was, in fact, a colostomy bag. Period.

Tampons and IUDs wouldn't set off security alarms...so I sincerely doubt that would ever become an issue.

And I'm guessing that anyone who jammed an explosive or something metal up their ass would be subjected to the backscatter if the preliminary search didn't identify the problem.

I think that this kind of inflammatory rhetoric fans the flames....and doesn't help.

If we honestly believe that we want the TSA to search less thoroughly, and accept the corresponding decrease in air travel safety, then it's up to us to do that through our legislators - not to hassle individual TSA agents who don't write the regulations, or get people stirred up about (non-existent) cavity searches.

If TSA had stopped one terrorist I might consider what they do as a safety precaution, but even TSA has admitted they would not have caught the shoe bomber or the underwear bomber using today's enhanced screenings. In both cases it was the passengers on the plane that stopped them.

Since 9/11 (the oft quoted reason we need TSA) planes have been outfitted with impenetrable doors to the pilots. That is the best security move possible.

If you don't already know the stories about the recent 'strip searches' where people have been told to remove their outer clothing to resolve issues, or the stories about silly items being 'voluntarily surrendered' (search plastic hammer), or the inconsiderate ways those in wheelchairs or other medical issues have been treated, please educate yourselves.

Our constitutional rights are being eroded by Homeland Security, TSA, the Patriot Act, etc. To treat everyone as guilty until proven innocent goes against our constitutional rights.

Andrea

Respectfully, we do not have a constitutional right to fly.

You have a constitutional right against unreasonable search and seizure, covered by the 4th Amendment.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Generally, that's defined as a search without cause (setting off the metal detector at the airport is cause, being the random "lucky number" based on TSA regulations is cause, being in a wheelchair through security, unfortunately, is cause).....or searches beyond the body's surface.

If the TSA starts drawing blood, then they've violated the 4th Amendment.

More on the 4th Amendment here (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/f081.htm).

My first and foremost concern when flying is that I'd like to arrive at my destination safely.

I don't like being searched (although I seem to get the "lucky random number" search often...and have been patted down a lot until I learned not to fly in voluminous skirts), but I prefer it to being blown up in the sky.

I had my possessions swabbed on the way to the Bahamas last week, and my 13 year old son got pat-searched on the way back. In both cases, the TSA (in the US) and the security personnel in the Bahamas (with my son) were polite, professional and simply doing their jobs.

[Chancie]

http://www.nwfdailynews.com/news/mother-41324-search-adult.html

Has anyone else seen this story? A 95 year old woman with leukemia traveling with her daughter is forced to remove her Depends undergarment to be searched. I am so outraged I can barely write coherent sentences.

This is one of those times I am ashamed to be an American.

[Novelafemme]

"If we honestly believe that we want the TSA to search less thoroughly, and accept the corresponding decrease in air travel safety, then it's up to us to do that through our legislators - not to hassle individual TSA agents who don't write the regulations, or get people stirred up about (non-existent) cavity searches."

Given media coverage surrounding other events involving the TSA recently, I believe the public (myself included) could be feeling a bit abused and manhandled - therefor heightening emotions involving personal privacy and space issues. While I completely understand the need for safety protocol and procedures in public transportation facilities, something about both the narrative and subsequent handling of this situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Again, this story comes on the heels of another situation involving an African American male who was removed from a plane due to his style of clothing, while another passenger (a white male) was allowed to travel wearing little more than a pair of black heels and a speedo. Most will say these two incidents vs the OP's story are like comparing apples and oranges, but the fact is that people are feeling sensitive and protective...especially when it comes to our elderly and children who are relatively helpless in these situations.

Personally, I would have been absolutely mortified had that been my mother. And speaking AS a mother - I have absolutely forgotten to pack extra diapers when traveling. I'm human after all!

[Toughy]

The real problem is none of this actually makes us more secure. It only makes us look stupid. What has happened to rational thinking? Who needs Constitutional rights? Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value iin the Constitution.

The only way to do airport security is to do it the way Israel does. Each and every person who is in the airport is talked to by a fully and completely trained, well paid security person. When the really dangerous and useless full body scanners were put in airports, I watched an interview on CNN with a former head of Israil Airport Security. He actually laughed at what the US calls airport security. Funny that Israel is the most hated country in the world and nobody has hijacked a plane coming out of an Israili airport in what 40-50 years?

[Dominique]

I don't like it either. Where do you draw the line? I left my last job, A VERY GOOD JOB, due to EXTREME STRESS. I was employed by the 8th largest airline in the world, as a dangerous goods inspector. I did not work for the TSA. While I can not go into great detail about that job (FAA
security) I will tell you, in no uncertain terms, you would be shocked at the crap people try to pull.

This is a link I provided you with about a year and a half ago, one of my very first posts' here. Read on, and please open your mind to this subject.

http://bit.ly/czAUMW

[JustJo]

"If we honestly believe that we want the TSA to search less thoroughly, and accept the corresponding decrease in air travel safety, then it's up to us to do that through our legislators - not to hassle individual TSA agents who don't write the regulations, or get people stirred up about (non-existent) cavity searches."

Given media coverage surrounding other events involving the TSA recently, I believe the public (myself included) could be feeling a bit abused and manhandled - therefor heightening emotions involving personal privacy and space issues. While I completely understand the need for safety protocol and procedures in public transportation facilities, something about both the narrative and subsequent handling of this situation leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Again, this story comes on the heels of another situation involving an African American male who was removed from a plane due to his style of clothing, while another passenger (a white male) was allowed to travel wearing little more than a pair of black heels and a speedo. Most will say these two incidents vs the OP's story are like comparing apples and oranges, but the fact is that people are feeling sensitive and protective...especially when it comes to our elderly and children who are relatively helpless in these situations.

Personally, I would have been absolutely mortified had that been my mother. And speaking AS a mother - I have absolutely forgotten to pack extra diapers when traveling. I'm human after all!

Novelafemme...I totally understand what you're saying, and I do get that people are feeling sensitive and protective. I wasn't thrilled that I had to explain a pat search to my 13 year old and watch as he was searched.

At the same time, I infinitely prefer that we both arrive where we're going safely.

The real problem is none of this actually makes us more secure. It only makes us look stupid. What has happened to rational thinking? Who needs Constitutional rights? Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value iin the Constitution.

The only way to do airport security is to do it the way Israel does. Each and every person who is in the airport is talked to by a fully and completely trained, well paid security person. When the really dangerous and useless full body scanners were put in airports, I watched an interview on CNN with a former head of Israil Airport Security. He actually laughed at what the US calls airport security. Funny that Israel is the most hated country in the world and nobody has hijacked a plane coming out of an Israili airport in what 40-50 years?

Toughy....I get that Israel has a better security system in place than the US does...and that our system is far from perfect.

My issue with your post is the part I've put in red. This isn't the first time I've seen you make such blanket statements about what other people believe.

It's crap Toughy...and it comes off as bullying. What you're saying there is "if you don't believe what I believe, then you're stupid and irrational"...and I'm calling it out.

For the record...I'm a firm believer in the Constitution. I debated for years about going to law school, specifically to study Constitutional law, because I love it. I love the freedoms that our Constitution guarantees us, and it pisses me off to no end that Bush played on our fears to erode our privacy and our freedoms.

I also prefer that my son and I not get blown up while flying.

Maybe that makes me imperfectly committed to the Constitution. Or maybe that just makes me a mother who loves her child.

[JustJo]

I don't like it either. Where do you draw the line? I left my last job, A VERY GOOD JOB, due to EXTREME STRESS. I was employed by the 8th largest airline in the world, as a dangerous goods inspector. I did not work for the TSA. While I can not go into great detail about that job (FAA
security) I will tell you, in no uncertain terms, you would be shocked at the crap people try to pull.

This is a link I provided you with about a year and a half ago, one of my very first posts' here. Read on, and please open your mind to this subject.

http://bit.ly/czAUMW


Scary stuff Yellow band...thank you for posting it.

It also explains why my "voluminous skirts" used to get me a pat search almost every time I flew.

[Inked_Trinity]

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

[Toughy]

oh please with the bullying stuff.......Expressing an opinion is not bullying.

I am tired of folks willingly giving up Constitutional rights in the name of fighting terror. I find it to be irrational and our 'airport passenger security' measures are laughable, stupid and dangerous. One of these days someone is going to get full body scanned and pat searched and then get on the plane and blow it up or hijack it. The scanners don't pick up powder and you can hide all kinds of things in body cavities that will get past the scanners and pat searches. What's next? Take out your bloody tampon for closer inspection?

As you say Israel has a better system. So why don't we use a better system?

[JustJo]

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

I agree (which may surprise you)...and that's a quote I actually love.

I totally agree when it comes to Homeland Security being able to check what books we check out of the library.....but less when it involves a bomb at 30,000 feet.

I'm not disputing that some TSA agents have gone too far, been disrespectful and more....I simply don't think it's unreasonable to try to ensure that public transportation (particularly in the air) is as safe as possible.

And, for those who would like to read more about the Israeli airport security discussion and why it may or may not scale (11.5 million annual passengers in Israel and 633 million in the US)....there's an interesting blog with both sides of the argument here (http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/01/adopting_the_is.html).

[Toughy]

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

The above needs to be repeated often. Was Ben bullying people????

[JustJo]

The real problem is none of this actually makes us more secure. It only makes us look stupid. What has happened to rational thinking? Who needs Constitutional rights? Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value iin the Constitution.

The only way to do airport security is to do it the way Israel does. Each and every person who is in the airport is talked to by a fully and completely trained, well paid security person. When the really dangerous and useless full body scanners were put in airports, I watched an interview on CNN with a former head of Israil Airport Security. He actually laughed at what the US calls airport security. Funny that Israel is the most hated country in the world and nobody has hijacked a plane coming out of an Israili airport in what 40-50 years?

oh please with the bullying stuff.......Expressing an opinion is not bullying.
I am tired of folks willingly giving up Constitutional rights in the name of fighting terror. I find it to be irrational and our 'airport passenger security' measures are laughable, stupid and dangerous. One of these days someone is going to get full body scanned and pat searched and then get on the plane and blow it up or hijack it. The scanners don't pick up powder and you can hide all kinds of things in body cavities that will get past the scanners and pat searches. What's next? Take out your bloody tampon for closer inspection?

As you say Israel has a better system. So why don't we use a better system?

Correct. Expressing an opinon is not bullying. Saying that "Every person who supports this kind of stupidity certainly does not find value in the Constitution" is no different than me saying "Every person who lives a gay lifestyle certainly has no morals."

It's crap Toughy.

Express your opinions, but please stop with the "every one who doesn't agree with me is X"....that's the dynamic that silences people.

And...for the record...I question that Israel's system is scalable here. They have 11.5 million passengers a year...we have 633 million. Israel's total air travel is comparable to the air traffic at the Sacramento regional airport according to an expert on airport security cited in the link in my post above.

Extending Israel's measures to only major airports in the US wouldn't work...because terrorists would simply divert to regional airports. Israel has one major airport and a small handfull of smaller airports. We have over 100.

Further, we have issues hiring quality police, fire and other personnel all over (again, cited in the link above)....TSA agents don't come up the standard we want now....finding the level of personnel and paying them sufficiently to come to Israel's standard would probably be problematic at best, not to mention raising the cost of air travel even higher than it is now.

Getting through security in Orlando can take hours now....what would it be if we took time to personally interview every passenger? I hate to think.

I'm not saying that we can't take and use some of their ideas, but I doubt we can replicate their system exactly at the scale we would need to in order to be effective.

And, see? I expressed all of that without saying "anyone who doesn't understand the concepts of taking a business structure to scale and return on investment is clearly an idiot."

[Andrew, Jr.]

How very sad indeed. I think the same when they do pretty much the same with infants and toddlers.

[JustJo]

I think Ben Franklin said it best...“Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

The above needs to be repeated often. Was Ben bullying people????

No...I don't think that Ben was bullying people. I think we was expressing a principle.

I also think that Ben was talking about bigger things when he talked about "giving up freedom."

We have the freedom to travel. We even have the freedom to fly around the country when and where we see fit. We simply have to submit to some basic security measures (as imperfect as they are) to do so.

We don't have the right to yell "fire" in a crowded theater either...that's for safety reasons. Kind of like flying.

And....I find it odd that you advocate Israel's far more restrictive security measures on one hand while clutching Ben's quote in the other.

[Andrea]

Respectfully, we do not have a constitutional right to fly.

I believe we do have a constitutional right to fly:

"The presumed right to travel, however, is firmly established in U.S. law and precedent. In U.S. v Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Court noted, "It is a right that has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized." In fact, in Shapiro v Thompson, 394 U.S. 618 (1969), Justice Stewart noted in a concurring opinion that "it is a right broadly assertable against private interference as well as governmental action. Like the right of association, ... it is a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all."

As to the daughter not having a spare Depends.... It is against TSA policy to allow one to access your personal items until all issues are resolved. So there may have been a spare Depends but not accessible.

In addition, per the Depends website:

Q: How often should I change my DEPEND® Brand product?

A: That depends on you and the extent of your condition. However, DEPEND® Brand products use more super absorbent polymers (SAP) to ensure they can withstand multiple wettings of varying amounts. This means you don't have to change them as often as less-expensive, non-premium brands.

Since it was not a long flight, it is quite possible there was no thought that an additional Depends was needed.

Andrea

[JustJo]

I believe we do have a constitutional right to fly:

"The presumed right to travel, however, is firmly established in U.S. law and precedent. In U.S. v Guest, 383 U.S. 745 (1966), the Court noted, "It is a right that has been firmly established and repeatedly recognized." In fact, in Shapiro v Thompson, 394 U.S. 618 (1969), Justice Stewart noted in a concurring opinion that "it is a right broadly assertable against private interference as well as governmental action. Like the right of association, ... it is a virtually unconditional personal right, guaranteed by the Constitution to us all."

Andrea

Thanks for this Andrea. I wonder if it's as specific to assert that we have a right to a certain form of travel though. If someone doesn't want to subject themselves to airport security, there is also the train, bus, car, etc.

Not trying to be difficult, but it is a personal choice.

I choose not to travel by bus because it's slow and makes me feel sick. I prefer to fly, even with the security measures. It's my choice.

And you may be right about the Depends issue....although the article said that she did not have a spare. It may be as Novelafemme pointed out, and have been forgotten. It still bothers me.

[Andrea]

Thanks for this Andrea. I wonder if it's as specific to assert that we have a right to a certain form of travel though. If someone doesn't want to subject themselves to airport security, there is also the train, bus, car, etc.

Not trying to be difficult, but it is a personal choice.

I choose not to travel by bus because it's slow and makes me feel sick. I prefer to fly, even with the security measures. It's my choice.

And you may be right about the Depends issue....although the article said that she did not have a spare. It may be as Novelafemme pointed out, and have been forgotten. It still bothers me.

TSA has begun searches at train stations (Amtrak officials are pushing back), bus stations and subways. I believe the program is called VIPR.

There are people who must travel for work and can not avoid flying. In this economy, it isn't reasonable to tell someone to find another job if they don't like being patted down almost every time they go through airport security because they have a metal pin in their leg or a colostomy bag or they just will not subject themselves to the scanner that may or may not produce cancer causing radiation.

It is now being reported that there were spare Depends in the checked luggage. Please note, the 95 year old woman was not without her mental capabilities so it was not her daughter's decision whether or not her mom should have a spare Depends. The 95 year old woman was a seasoned nurse and quite capable of deciding for herself what her needs were. Perhaps the daughter suggested a spare Depends and mom made the decision not to carry one. And the truth is, if the TSA had not required the Depends be removed, it is quite possible a spare one would not have been needed.

Andrea

[JustJo]

TSA has begun searches at train stations (Amtrak officials are pushing back), bus stations and subways. I believe the program is called VIPR.

There are people who must travel for work and can not avoid flying. In this economy, it isn't reasonable to tell someone to find another job if they don't like being patted down almost every time they go through airport security because they have a metal pin in their leg or a colostomy bag or they just will not subject themselves to the scanner that may or may not produce cancer causing radiation.

Andrea

Thanks Andrea, I had not heard about this program. Here's a link (http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/tsa-swarms-8000-bus-stations-public-transit-systems-yearly) and, yes, I do find this disturbing, especially the part that is extending their examinations to immigration status.

I believe that the TSA's searches need to be completely restricted to concerns regarding physical safety....and it's one of my biggest criticisms of the Israeli-style screenings. I have more issues personally with people questioning me about where I'm coming from, where I'm going, where I went to school, my nationality, etc. than I do about a pat search for weapons.

[Toughy]

Using face-to-face communication with a passenger is far more than: where are you flying and why are you going and when will you be back. There are very proven techniques to ascertain if someone needs a closer look. That is what the 'well trained' part means.

I have no issues with metal detectors and wands and looking at your carry-on baggage. It's a perfectly reasonable thing and is not invasive

Taking off your shoes is stupid. No disposable lighters was stupid, especially when you could have 3 books of matches on the plane. No more than 3oz of any liquid/gel and it has to be in only a quart size baggie is stupid. Poorly trained, poorly paid security folks does not make us safer. Those things make up less safe.

As to cost in the US.........LMAO......you cannot be serious...... How many trillions of dollars are we spending in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya and ________ to kill and main our soldiers and all those 'non-combantants'? How many years have we been doing that? And let's not talk about how many terrorists we are creating because we are killing people. And all of it 'off the budget'. To use cost as a reason is ludicrious, stupid and irrational.

Well trained and paid security professionals in our airports, combining face-to-face and non-invasive techniques keeps us safer and is less dangerous to passengers and professionals.


I also want to be clear. What happens to your checked baggage and behind the scenes at train stations, bus stations, ports, etc needs to be mind blowingly strict. I say use every bit of technology in available and make new technology. I have a hard time believing that I can use Google Earth and look at me on my deck and we can't have a look at everything that comes in and out of our seaports, airports, etc. For the cost argument see above.

edited to add: I am not talking about a formal interview. You walk up and have a chat. That can be done while folks are in line. I would rather pay well trained people than pay a corporation half a million dollars to buy a scanner that is invasive, doesn't work, and is dangerous to everyone.

[JustJo]

Using face-to-face communication with a passenger is far more than: where are you flying and why are you going and when will you be back. There are very proven techniques to ascertain if someone needs a closer look. That is what the 'well trained' part means.

I have no issues with metal detectors and wands and looking at your carry-on baggage. It's a perfectly reasonable thing and is not invasive

Taking off your shoes is stupid. No disposable lighters was stupid, especially when you could have 3 books of matches on the plane. No more than 3oz of any liquid/gel and it has to be in only a quart size baggie is stupid. Poorly trained, poorly paid security folks does not make us safer. Those things make up less safe.

As to cost in the US.........LMAO......you cannot be serious...... How many trillions of dollars are we spending in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya and ________ to kill and main our soldiers and all those 'non-combantants'? How many years have we been doing that? And let's not talk about how many terrorists we are creating because we are killing people. And all of it 'off the budget'. To use cost as a reason is ludicrious, stupid and irrational.

Well trained and paid security professionals in our airports, combining face-to-face and non-invasive techniques keeps us safer and is less dangerous to passengers and professionals.


I also want to be clear. What happens to your checked baggage and behind the scenes at train stations, bus stations, ports, etc needs to be mind blowingly strict. I say use every bit of technology in available and make new technology. I have a hard time believing that I can use Google Earth and look at me on my deck and we can't have a look at everything that comes in and out of our seaports, airports, etc. For the cost argument see above.

I agree. And if we stopped spending a fortune on wars that we should never have been in, and stopped thinking (and acting) that we have the right to tell the rest of the world how to live and how to think...then we'd have both less need to spend money on airport security and more money left to do it.

Might be hard to understand Toughy...but I never had an issue with your opinion. I have disagreed with others on this thread and have no issue with them at all. My issue was with how you said what you said...and with the implication that anyone who doesn't agree with you is irrational and stupid.

On some points we agree, on some we disagree...and I'm fine with all of that.

[Kobi]

Honestly Kobi? My mother has a colostomy bag. She has been pat-searched and asked what it was. It was very gently handled to ensure that it was, in fact, a colostomy bag. Period.

Tampons and IUDs wouldn't set off security alarms...so I sincerely doubt that would ever become an issue.





With all due respect Jo, I am pretty sure the adult diaper didnt set off the metal detector.

I am pretty sure travelers have to remove their shoes for inspection because of the guy who smuggled a bomb on board in his shoes. And the guy who tried to smuggle a bomb in his underwear is what prompted the invasive patdowns that are now done and the underwear checks. Restrictions on shampoos and mouthwashes and liquids are a result of something that was found that did not involve shampoo, mouthwashes, or water bottles.

I also cannot remember one single instance where a terrorist plot within the USA involved using children, or the elderly or anyone in wheelchair.

The regs are, in my opinion and as far as I know I still have a right to one, overreactions to the actual threat. It is the government instilling fear in its citizens.

Some of us do not believe the government accounts of what happened on 9/11 or how the twin towers really fell, or the actual realistic terrorist threat regarding air travel.

You, of course, are welcome to have different opinion.

[JustJo]

With all due respect Jo, I am pretty sure the adult diaper didnt set off the metal detector.

Hi Kobi,
I don't think anyone has suggested that the adult diaper set off the metal detector. I believe, from the article, the issue was that since she was not ambulatory enough to clear the metal detector without the wheelchair, she was subjected to a more extensive search...as is TSA policy. I'm not saying that policy is good or bad.

I am pretty sure travelers have to remove their shoes for inspection because of the guy who smuggled a bomb on board in his shoes. And the guy who tried to smuggle a bomb in his underwear is what prompted the invasive patdowns that are now done and the underwear checks. Restrictions on shampoos and mouthwashes and liquids are a result of something that was found that did not involve shampoo, mouthwashes, or water bottles.

I'm pretty sure that you're right...that shoe removal came about because of the "shoe bomber" episode. I'm sure that I've been subject to pat downs before the underwear incident because I tend to fly in full skirts (for the comfort factor). I think the article that Yellow Band posted points to the reason for that...and may also be a factor with other loose or baggy clothing.

I also cannot remember one single instance where a terrorist plot within the USA involved using children, or the elderly or anyone in wheelchair.

Agreed. However, I couldn't say the same worldwide...and that it wouldn't or couldn't happen here as well.

The regs are, in my opinion and as far as I know I still have a right to one, overreactions to the actual threat. It is the government instilling fear in its citizens.

Again, I agree. I think that all of the constant "threat level" announcements in the airport are pointless...and that we fan fear and hysteria for all kinds of reasons.

Some of us do not believe the government accounts of what happened on 9/11 or how the twin towers really fell, or the actual realistic terrorist threat regarding air travel.

And theories about 9/11? That could be a whole other thread (if it isn't already). :olive:

You, of course, are welcome to have different opinion.




I read an interesting blog on how the TSA gets away with these measures by calling them "administrative searches." Here's a link (http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-the-tsa-legally-circumvents-the-fourth-amendment/comment-page-1/#comment-174238)for anyone that's interested....and I think the writer has a valid point. If we disagree with these searches, then we need to challenge them in court and with our legislators. That's the only way things will be changed.

[Andrea]

A list of some of the current lawsuits:

Corbett v. US, 10-CV-24106, SDFL 11/16/2010 ["The Florida Businessman"]
Roberts v. Nappy, 10-CV-1966, DCD 11/16/2010 ["Rutherford the First]
Fielder v. Nappy, 10-CV-2878, COD 11/26/2010 ["The Colorado Attorney"]
Redfern v. Nappy, 10-CV-12048, MAD 11/29/2010 ["The Harvard Law Students"]
Blitz v. Nappy, 10-CV-930, MDNC 12/03/2010 ["North Carolina Family"]
Durso v. Nappy, 10-CV-2066, DCD 12/06/2010 ["Rutherford the Second"]

Writing to legislators results in automated responses referring to 9/11 and the need for security. Few legislators appear to be willing to go up against Homeland Security and the Patriot Act. However, that shouldn't stop you from contacting your representatives often.

Andrea

[Andrea]

The following posting is by a member of flyertalk, from the Travel Safety/Security forum. The number of per day passengers is an estimate provided in a posting by an employee of TSA.

"Even if all 2 million passengers alarmed, and using the (faux) stat above of 99.99% resolved towards the passenger's benefit, why should those 1,999,800 people (99.99%) be inconvenienced for the 200 people (0.01%) that may have something that is "banned" from the secure side?

And, admittedly guessing, I would guess a large majority of the 'guilty' are for questionable items (too much water, nailclippers w/ a file attached, every day pocket knife). Another fair percentage for reasonable items that were inadvertantly brought. Leaving only 1 or 2 that may have brought something with ill intent. (And I have to question the 1 or 2 as we would be hearing about it more often if that were the case.)

So the TSA chooses, in my opinion, to waste a lot of time, energy, and money searching all 2,000,000 passengers daily (initially intended to be screened the same) to more than a typical administrative search (WTMD and x-ray carryons) for a less than 0.01% chance that that passenger is actually "The 1".

As well, I know several have seen the estimate that the odds of being killed by a terrorist flying to, from, or within the US on an airplane is roughly 1 in 10,000,000. Extrapolating out, and using a 100 passenger per plane average, roughly means that once every 500 days that "The 1" passenger has the true ill intent. One passenger out of 100 million passengers - I have a better chance to win the lottery."

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Andrea

[Glenn]

If you want to leave the country, you can go to Cuba or Mexico by BOAT and from there fly.

[Andrea]

If you want to leave the country, you can go to Cuba or Mexico by BOAT and from there fly.

Not following your suggestion here. I am able to leave the country in any number of ways.....

I don't wish to misinterpret your comment but it seems as if you are suggesting I/we are unAmerican to question TSA and should go live somewhere else. Please clarify.

Thank you

[tapu]

The following posting is by a member of flyertalk, from the Travel Safety/Security forum. The number of per day passengers is an estimate provided in a posting by an employee of TSA.

"Even if all 2 million passengers alarmed, and using the (faux) stat above of 99.99% resolved towards the passenger's benefit, why should those 1,999,800 people (99.99%) be inconvenienced for the 200 people (0.01%) that may have something that is "banned" from the secure side?

And, admittedly guessing, I would guess a large majority of the 'guilty' are for questionable items (too much water, nailclippers w/ a file attached, every day pocket knife). Another fair percentage for reasonable items that were inadvertantly brought. Leaving only 1 or 2 that may have brought something with ill intent. (And I have to question the 1 or 2 as we would be hearing about it more often if that were the case.)

So the TSA chooses, in my opinion, to waste a lot of time, energy, and money searching all 2,000,000 passengers daily (initially intended to be screened the same) to more than a typical administrative search (WTMD and x-ray carryons) for a less than 0.01% chance that that passenger is actually "The 1".

As well, I know several have seen the estimate that the odds of being killed by a terrorist flying to, from, or within the US on an airplane is roughly 1 in 10,000,000. Extrapolating out, and using a 100 passenger per plane average, roughly means that once every 500 days that "The 1" passenger has the true ill intent. One passenger out of 100 million passengers - I have a better chance to win the lottery."

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Andrea


I can totally get behind the math of it. Following the same reasoning, I don't play the lottery.

But there is a much more complex overlay on it all. Public perception--and "enemy perception," if you wiil, impact of an incident on the psychology of the nation, the economy, and so on. The picture is, I think, larger than weighing probabilities.

[Linus]

Then again, we get the joys of the following: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/boarding-pass-arrest-nigerian-slipped-jfk-airport-security/story?id=13963831

The arrested foreign national who allegedly flew from New York to Los Angeles last week with a stolen boarding pass and ID card is a self-proclaimed "storyteller, strategist and designer who is passionate about reaching the world for Jesus," according to one of the many websites with which he is affiliated.

Olajide Oluwaseun Noibi, 24, a Nigerian-born man who was found with the stolen ID and up to 10 old boarding passes containing various names, was arrested Wednesday after attempting to board a flight from Los Angeles to Atlanta; five days after passing through layers of airport security at New York's JFK airport to board a plane with a day-old boarding pass, federal authorities said.

Also known as Seun Noibi, the man claims to have an office on Chicago's southwest side and to be a frequent air traveler in comments that are posted under his various identities. He also says he is affiliated with the University of Michigan.

In one post on a social media website, Noibi comments about his plans to travel and his commitment to God.

"3 days, 3 cities, Chicago, Detroit and NOw i can spy with my little eye New york city from this Sheraton at Liberty Int'l Airport in NJ," he said. "When i told God to use me i didn't know he'll take me serious. Here I am. Use more of me. Meetings right into my birthday on sunday and then back in las gidi...for the Diko and Friends in Concert and Album Launch. It can only be God."

Noibi is also reportedly the founder of the "Unleash Abel Institute," said to be located in Chicago. The organization claims to have been "introducing students (8-12th graders and college bound) to professional careers in business, technology, and the sciences."

He also is listed as a principal executive of Unleash Media Inc. and Unleash 9JA, described as "a movement of independent thinkers, artist, musicians and filmmakers propagating the african experience," according to one website.

Noibi was charged with being a stowaway aboard an aircraft, according to FBI Special Agent Kevin R. Hogg. He is being held at a Los Angeles Metropolitan Detention Center and is expected to be in court Friday.

Noibi allegedly managed to get through every layer of security with a fake ID and numerous boarding passes, at least one of which came from another passenger's pocket, ABC News has learned.

The arrest came after Noibi allegedly boarded a plane Saturday under similar circumstances at JFK and travel to Los Angeles. Noibi boarded Virgin America flight 415 at JFK bound for L.A., according to an FBI affidavit.

He was found on the plane after it had taken off and was in flight, in a seat in the aircraft's "main cabin select" area. When asked for his boarding pass, Noibi produced a boarding pass and ticket for a Friday flight that was not in his name, authorities said.

On that pass was the name of a man with the initials M.D. After tracking down and interviewing him, the FBI learned that M.D. had lost his home-printed boarding pass from his back pocket, which had been folded into fourths, once he arrived at JFK via subway Friday, officials said. Once he discovered it missing, he obtained a new boarding pass from a ticket kiosk and boarded flight 413.

On flight 415 Saturday -- the day after M.D.'s flight had already taken off -- a similarly folded home-printed boarding pass with M.D.'s name on it was found on Noibi, officials said.

It is unclear how Noibi managed to get through security at both airports, and whether he left the L.A. airport once flight 415 landed last week and when he attempted to board Delta Airlines flight 46 to Atlanta Wednesday, although he claims to have cleared security.

"Noibi … said that he spent the night of June 28, 2011 at LAX Gate 51B, which I know is in the secure portion of the airport," agent Hogg said in the affidavit. "Noibi claimed he was able to go through passenger screening by obtaining a seat pass and displaying his University of Michigan identification and a police report that his passport had been stolen."

Hogg was at the Los Angeles airport with tactical Flight Officer Edward Becerril Wednesday when Noibi approach a Delta Airlines departure gate counter, according to the affidavit. Becerril overheard Noibi respond that he had missed his flight the day before, and that "they" told him he could just go to the gate, according to the affidavit. The Delta agent told Noibi "no" twice, and Noibi kept trying to hand her the boarding pass.

Hogg and Becerril then approached Noibi and said that when they searched his bags, they found more than 10 boarding passes in various individual's names.

The Transportation Security Administration said it "cannot comment on the specifics of the case given the ongoing FBI investigation."

Generally speaking, though, the TSA said in its statement, "Every passenger that passes through security checkpoints is subject to many layers of security including thorough physical screening at the checkpoint. TSA's review of this matter indicates that the passenger went through screening.

"It is important to note that this passenger was subject to the same physical screening at the checkpoint as other passengers."

A spokesman for Virgin America said the airline doesn't comment on security issues.

It is unclear why Noibi was arrested Wednesday and not when he was discovered last week as a stowaway on Flight 415.

I travel a lot and generally have no problem with the security checks. However, if it's going to be done, let's be thorough about this. Valid ID is required. If the name on one doesn't match the one on the other, then it shouldn't be allowed.

To me, even if he was checked physically, it won't matter if they can't do a basic ID check properly. So while I understand checking someone's diaper to be thorough, it'd make sense if they were truly doing a good job. The fact that a lot of the TSA screeners aren't adequately trained and underpaid doesn't help.

[tapu]

I read that story about the guy getting all the way on a plane without a boarding pass or ID, and I thought, Meanwhile, I was behind security throwing away my hair gel....

[Andrea]

Linus (and anyone else that cares to jump in):

I agree with what you are saying about if TSA is assigned the job, they should be able to do the job. This situation indicates failure by several parties.

All that aside, do you feel it is important or helpful to show ID at the TSA security points? What is the purpose for doing so? It is the airlines that are tasked with comparing your name to the no-fly list, and you are not actually 'required' to show ID to the TSA if you don't have one (although I don't know how one would prove you don't have something).

Thank you for your input.

Andrea

[Andrea]

More food for thought in this Forbes article: http://blogs.forbes.com/artcarden/2011/06/30/time-to-close-the-security-theater/ (http://blogs.forbes.com/artcarden/2011/06/30/time-to-close-the-security-theater/)

[Dominique]

Linus (and anyone else that cares to jump in):

I agree with what you are saying about if TSA is assigned the job, they should be able to do the job. This situation indicates failure by several parties.

All that aside, do you feel it is important or helpful to show ID at the TSA security points? What is the purpose for doing so? It is the airlines that are tasked with comparing your name to the no-fly list, and you are not actually 'required' to show ID to the TSA if you don't have one (although I don't know how one would prove you don't have something).

Thank you for your input.

Andrea

Hi Andrea. You have done a very good job pointing out several key issues about travel and security. I've enjoyed reading your posts. Everyones for that matter.

It is *MY* opinion, that TSA is a very expensive SHILL, and not much more. As has been suggested several times, they are weak.

Airlines and airports do have *REAL* security. Trust me. However, it is not talked about. It can't be. Terrorists are too smart. Then there is always the copycat and the wanna be, which quite frankily, that is what TSA is there to DETER.
They have to look like they are doing something. I didn't read your link yet, but will. I'm trying to get my ass out the door. I just wanted to stress the point. The real security is in place, and it's not discussed for obvious reasons.:byebye:

[Andrea]

Hi Andrea. You have done a very good job pointing out several key issues about travel and security. I've enjoyed reading your posts. Everyones for that matter.

It is *MY* opinion, that TSA is a very expensive SHILL, and not much more. As has been suggested several times, they are weak.

Airlines and airports do have *REAL* security. Trust me. However, it is not talked about. It can't be. Terrorists are too smart. Then there is always the copycat and the wanna be, which quite frankily, that is what TSA is there to DETER.
They have to look like they are doing something. I didn't read your link yet, but will. I'm trying to get my ass out the door. I just wanted to stress the point. The real security is in place, and it's not discussed for obvious reasons.:byebye:

So, YB, is the real purpose of TSA to distract from the security that is in place so terrorists are surprised?

Andrea

[Dominique]

No, TSA has a function. But they are not our main line of security. Our main line of security is secret. As it should be. If airline security was openly discussed, it would be much easier to defeat it. And now, same will apply with the railroad and buses. Railroad is more complicated. As Amtrak does not own the rails, (highspeed excluded) they pay to run on
the privately owned tracks.

[tapu]

Hmm.... So in this case, TSA and "real security" let him by? Great.

[Andrea]

No, TSA has a function. But they are not our main line of security. Our main line of security is secret. As it should be. If airline security was openly discussed, it would be much easier to defeat it. And now, same will apply with the railroad and buses. Railroad is more complicated. As Amtrak does not own the rails, (highspeed excluded) they pay to run on
the privately owned tracks.


I don't mean to belabor the point but I don't understand what the purpose of TSA is, especially if we have a main line of security. Would you please expound on TSA's purpose.

And maybe you could touch on why TSA type security is necessary for passengers on railroad and buses when any terrorist action would be more effective in larger venues or used on the tracks and roads rather than the vehicle.

I appreciate any insight you have to offer.

Andrea

[Dominique]

I'm not sure who you are talking to Andrea, if it is me, (since you quoted me) I will respectfully bow out of this conversation.

I can not continue as I stated very early in the thread. However, you have done a good job with providing links and info. It was you who mentioned VIPR. Maybe you'd like to expound. I'm out of this.

[T4Texas]

I think if people are going to be angry, they should be angry at the world politics and cultural movements that have placed us in this situation to begin with. We must do what we can to protect our citizens, even if that system is flawed, its still better than none at all. I would rather spend my time in airport security, with its lopsided methods that might reduce the possibility of my being blown out of the sky, than not do anything preventative. I also feel the whole system needs to be reworked given the fact that this is going to be our way of life from now on. The world has changed and we must change with it.

[tapu]

I've noticed, on a few threads, that people are kind of, um, touchy today....


Anyway, Yellow Band's brief outline of the difference btwn TSA and what we're referring to as "real" security makes very good sense to me. I have no objective data to shore it up, but it seems logical:

TSA is the "security theater"--it is there precisely to make people aware that they can't bring potentiallly dangerous stuff onto an airplane. This is particularly relevant in the cases YB pointed out: with wannabes, and copycats. Oh, and assholes. I would add, assholes.

"Real Security" is looking for organized terrorist incidents, involving bombs, hijackings, bio attacks, etc. And I can see how it would be ineffective, not to say 'dumb,' if they were obvious.

Andrea, if you look back at earlier posts abotu this, you'll see this mentioned. I don't know, but do you think it's not plausible sounding?

[Andrea]

I'm not sure who you are talking to Andrea, if it is me, (since you quoted me) I will respectfully bow out of this conversation.

I can not continue as I stated very early in the thread. However, you have done a good job with providing links and info. It was you who mentioned VIPR. Maybe you'd like to expound. I'm out of this.

I am sorry if I put you in an uncomfortable position. It was not my intention. When you said there were things you couldn't speak of, I understood you to mean the real security and not the purpose of TSA. I am guessing speaking of one does not preclude the other.

Please accept my apology and thank you for your participation to the point you were able to participate.

Andrea

[Andrea]

I think if people are going to be angry, they should be angry at the world politics and cultural movements that have placed us in this situation to begin with. We must do what we can to protect our citizens, even if that system is flawed, its still better than none at all. I would rather spend my time in airport security, with its lopsided methods that might reduce the possibility of my being blown out of the sky, than not do anything preventative. I also feel the whole system needs to be reworked given the fact that this is going to be our way of life from now on. The world has changed and we must change with it.

Using the logic of anything for security, do you feel that everyone should have to pass a breathalyzer prior to operating a car? There are far more drunk drivers killing people than there are terrorists attempting to blow airplanes out of the sky.

It is not my desire to argue with you (the collective you). I am really curious why we (the collective we) are okay with anything for security regarding travel but we are not up in arms regarding other issues that are far more common and have far more people dying.

Andrea

[Andrea]

I've noticed, on a few threads, that people are kind of, um, touchy today....


Anyway, Yellow Band's brief outline of the difference btwn TSA and what we're referring to as "real" security makes very good sense to me. I have no objective data to shore it up, but it seems logical:

TSA is the "security theater"--it is there precisely to make people aware that they can't bring potentiallly dangerous stuff onto an airplane. This is particularly relevant in the cases YB pointed out: with wannabes, and copycats. Oh, and assholes. I would add, assholes.

"Real Security" is looking for organized terrorist incidents, involving bombs, hijackings, bio attacks, etc. And I can see how it would be ineffective, not to say 'dumb,' if they were obvious.

Andrea, if you look back at earlier posts abotu this, you'll see this mentioned. I don't know, but do you think it's not plausible sounding?

I think it is plausible TSA is not the real security. At least I am hoping our government is not pinning our safety on the TSA. I am unconvinced that TSA is doing any level of real security work and unconvinced TSA prevents even wannabes, copycats and asshole terrorists from getting on a plane.

Andrea

[tapu]

In the sense that the very presence and the practices of the uniformed TSA officers can in many cases deter dangerous materials on a plane, and the more simplistic "terrorists" (i.e., wannabe's, copycats, etc.), then what is there has to work to some degree. I don't know how anyone could dispute that.

Let me try to be clearer: the visibility helps.

[Andrea]

In the sense that the very presence and the practices of the uniformed TSA officers can in many cases deter dangerous materials on a plane, and the more simplistic "terrorists" (i.e., wannabe's, copycats, etc.), then what is there has to work to some degree. I don't know how anyone could dispute that.

Let me try to be clearer: the visibility helps.

We will have to agree to disagree because I don't believe wannabes, copycats, etc, care the least little bit about TSA and their rules. I believe if bad guys (wannabes, copycats, etc included) cared about rules, there wouldn't be so many people in jail.

Andrea

[tapu]

Let me try to be clearer: the visibility helps.


Imagine if you walked up with a boarding pass you printed out at home, and right onto an aircraft. No checks. You don't think a few people might be more likely to bring dangerous things with them, and be bad enough or nuts enough to do something with it? You don't think checking their carry-on--even the threat of checking their carry-on--has any deterrent effect?

If you think that's not a good point, then you're right. We disagree.

[Andrea]

Let me try to be clearer: the visibility helps.


Imagine if you walked up with a boarding pass you printed out at home, and right onto an aircraft. No checks. You don't think a few people might be more likely to bring dangerous things with them, and be bad enough or nuts enough to do something with it? You don't think checking their carry-on--even the threat of checking their carry-on--has any deterrent effect?

If you think that's not a good point, then you're right. We disagree.

I think people are currently bringing 'dangerous' things with them, knowingly and unknowingly. TSA catches some and misses some. I think most of what TSA deems dangerous, isn't so dangerous. I think some things not listed on the TSA dangerous list are more dangerous than things that are. (I am much more afraid of 12" knitting needles than a bottle of water.)

As to people using things to do something inappropriate on the plane... I believe someone wanting to cause trouble will find a way to do so with or without things considered dangerous.

Please understand that I am not against security and I believe some level is appropriate and helpful. I am just questioning if the current level of security is appropriate and/or necessary, or should there be less or should there be more.

And shouldn't we also be checking others who may have an opportunity to place dangerous items where bad people can get them. Are you aware that pilots are not required to go through TSA security? Are you aware that many airports do not require airport employees or TSA employees to go through security? If a bad guy wanted to bribe or blackmail someone to place a dangerous object (gun, knife...), wouldn't it make more sense to select someone who has unfettered access than hope to carry one on board yourself?

Tapu, thank you for giving me the opportunity to air some of my thoughts. I appreciate the exchange.

Andrea

[T4Texas]

Using the logic of anything for security, do you feel that everyone should have to pass a breathalyzer prior to operating a car? There are far more drunk drivers killing people than there are terrorists attempting to blow airplanes out of the sky.

It is not my desire to argue with you (the collective you). I am really curious why we (the collective we) are okay with anything for security regarding travel but we are not up in arms regarding other issues that are far more common and have far more people dying.

Andrea

The first point is that I thought we were talking about airport security and the problems associated with it. As for drunk drivers, that is a subject near and dear to me as I have had two family members killed by a drunk driver and their family totally devastated by that event. I believe if you are convicted of a DWI that you should have to take a breathalyzer, yes..and have your license revoked, particularly if there was a death involved and we won't even discuss jail time. But so as not to derail the conversation, I stand by the fact that people cry too much over airport security because they are inconvenienced and don't really think about what the consequences might be if that security were not there. You can bet all those people that hit the world trade center would probably have wanted tighter security had they known what awaited them. I also stated that it did need to be revamped given the amount of people that fly to make the process smoother and more efficient.

[Andrea]

The first point is that I thought we were talking about airport security and the problems associated with it. As for drunk drivers, that is a subject near and dear to me as I have had two family members killed by a drunk driver and their family totally devastated by that event. I believe if you are convicted of a DWI that you should have to take a breathalyzer, yes..and have your license revoked, particularly if there was a death involved and we won't even discuss jail time. But so as not to derail the conversation, I stand by the fact that people cry too much over airport security because they are inconvenienced and don't really think about what the consequences might be if that security were not there. You can bet all those people that hit the world trade center would probably have wanted tighter security had they known what awaited them. I also stated that it did need to be revamped given the amount of people that fly to make the process smoother and more efficient.

Once again, I must apologize. This time for changing the subject without putting on my turn signal.

I am sorry to hear you have been touched by drunk drivers. It was not my intention to trigger unpleasant memories.

Thank you for being willing to engage.

Andrea