This is a tough one (regarding child maltreatment)

[Gráinne]

I haven't the slightest idea where to put this, but I need some advice from those wiser than I.

First, I am a teacher, and by law I must report suspected child abuse or even just hinkey feelings. Failure to do so could mean I lose my license. I have found out that this means 24/7, not just the dirty/bruised child in school that would be an easy case.

I live in an apartment complex and there is a family below me. The father is the maintenance supervisor for the complex. His daughter, age 12, is my daughter's best friend. Father had a live-in girlfriend who recently moved out amongst much drama and apparently a huge fight. That woman had a daughter, age 9, also friends with my daughter. So far, so good?

The gf also had a five-ish year old daughter and a 15 year old. The father, "Duane", has a 20 year old who has one baby of a little over a year, and she's pregnant again by a different man. GF is over a lot, and I suspect it isn't as over as it seems. All of these people live in the apartment off and on, and Duane's other daughter will be coming back shortly, so there's anywhere from 9 to 11 people living there. It's hard for me to follow, too.

I don't know if there's any physical abuse going on, except for the fact that all of the adults are smokers, so heavy that the smoke comes up through my window. They have also tried to get me to take the five-year old to the pool when I take my kids, but I refuse. I do know there is a lot of shouting and fighting, and that I hear the baby crying every night. It just sounds like a poor situation all around.

My question: Is this sufficient to call CPS, as I am required to do? I can do this anonymously, although I bet they'd figure it out. Or, do I approach Duane with my concerns and the position I'm in? He and I get along reasonably well. Or, talk to the leasing office (on property)? Or, nothing? WWYD?

[*Anya*]

I do know what state you are in but in California, mandated reporters report known or suspected abuse or neglect. This child may be neglected if there is no physical abuse. To ask a relative stranger to take a 5-year-old to a pool
sounds neglectful. You do not have to "prove" anything, CPS will make a determination if it warrants investigation. Trust your gut feelings. I am an RN specializing in behavioral health and have done more than my fair share of APS & CPS Reports. In my present job, I work with social workers & RN's making recommendations for their follow-up on complex medical, psychiatric & chemical dependency cases and if this were a case I eas reviewing, I would encourage the staff to err on the side of caution. Our most vulnerable need us to look out for them when no one else is. Reports can also be made anonymously if you are fearful of repercussions from the neighbors.

I hope this is helpful and am aware others may disagree with me. I would do it if I were in your shoes.

PS: my response has nothing to do with the cigarette smoking though it is unheathful for the children. We are not yet at the point parents are penalized for smoking & no I do not smoke.

Good luck, the child (children) are lucky to have you as their neighbor.

[LaneyDoll]

My question: Is this sufficient to call CPS, as I am required to do? I can do this anonymously, although I bet they'd figure it out. Or, do I approach Duane with my concerns and the position I'm in? He and I get along reasonably well. Or, talk to the leasing office (on property)? Or, nothing? WWYD?

I am not sure about what you should or shouldn't do. It is a hard call. But, I would not approach Duane directly OR talk to the leasing office. If you talk to the office, he WILL find out, trust me.

If you contact CPS, I would tell them what you have stated here and that you feel an obligation to report, given your teaching license.

I have to wonder though, could you be making a less-than-great situation bad? My oldest had severe trouble with ear infections as a baby and he cried and cried but he was never even remotely in any harm's way.

On the other hand, you do not want to be in a "if only I had called sooner" situation.

At any rate, I would start paying more attention to see if anything there sways your thoughts in one way or the other.

Best of luck to you!

:sparklyheart:

[Sachita]

I think there should be a law against people smoking in a confined area where there are kids- home, cars, etc.

[tantalizingfemme]

In your observations, what exactly do you see/feel is abuse and/or neglect?

Based on what you have shared, I am not quite sure what is abusive or neglectful. Smoking in the house, too many people in and out could be chalked up to be poor judgment and choices...but it does not mean it is an abusive or neglectful home. (chaotic maybe)

You said the two girls are close friends with your daughter...have they said anything or present a picture of any kind of abuse occurring or neglect? I am honestly asking because I am not necessarily seeing anything exceptionally alarming based on the information.

[Semantics]

I haven't the slightest idea where to put this, but I need some advice from those wiser than I.

First, I am a teacher, and by law I must report suspected child abuse or even just hinkey feelings. Failure to do so could mean I lose my license. I have found out that this means 24/7, not just the dirty/bruised child in school that would be an easy case.



If you're worried about your license an anonymous report defeats the purpose, because according to the scenario you've outlined that doesn't cover your ass if you fear being held responsible for not reporting.

These things vary so widely by location, but I can tell you that smoking around children can be considered neglect in certain situations, such as when a child has asthma or some other condition aggravated by the smoke and the parents refuse to stop smoking around them in enclosed areas. This is rare, however.

It's hard to give an opinion without hearing the amount and the severity of the crying or arguing. Babies cry and families argue. If you feel that either constitutes neglectful behavior or potential harm to the children you should make the report.

I'm sorry. I'm a mandated reporter, as well, and these decisions can be difficult.

[princessbelle]

You are getting good advice.

My .2...

Call CPS then watch and listen.

A crying child isn't always a panic situation, granted. A lot of people living in one home isn't a panic situation. I have seen tons of peeps living in the same place in the homes of the mountain folks i see as patients.

But, if you are having gut feelings, go with that. Call CPS, let them handle it and keep a watchful eye out. If you see something that IS neglect or a panic situation, and you are SURE about it, don't hesitate to call 911 at that time.

Be careful too i want to add, because one person's happy home may "appear" to be something it is not. Just watch...a lot.

The kids are lucky you are there. Whether they are abused, neglected or not. It's not an everyday thing anymore that people are willing to get involved. Watching out for all of our kids is a good thing.

Good for you.

[MissPriss]

IF you are uncomfortable about anything, even if you are not sure it is physical abuse, you should call. Dont doubt yourself or think its none of your business, you could be the only one that could stop it from going further and one of those children ending up dead.

[RavynTuqiri]

That's a tough call...I too would have to go with the "gut" feeling....and what have you observed? Are the children always hungry or appear always dirty?

My kid as a baby had colic...crying for hours on end at night was my life for about 6 weeks until she "grew" out of it.

Asking you to take his kids to the pool doesn't signify abuse to me, as you state, you feel you have a decent relationship with the guy....more like a guy who isn't making decisions with his kids as the priority.

Hard to say anything about the number of people in the house...could be cultural, could be just a sign of these hard economic times, or just plain poor decision making.

I would also be curious if your daughter had said anything about the "condition" of her friend...bruises, reports of "falling down" alot or "running" into things.

Bottom line is...trust your intuition and as said before...better to err on the side of caution than not to report anything out of fear of retaliation. And bringing it up to the apartment manager...would be worse and confronting the potential abuser? Not a good idea..they always deny it.

[Heart]

I haven't the slightest idea where to put this, but I need some advice from those wiser than I.

First, I am a teacher, and by law I must report suspected child abuse or even just hinkey feelings. Failure to do so could mean I lose my license. I have found out that this means 24/7, not just the dirty/bruised child in school that would be an easy case.

I live in an apartment complex and there is a family below me. The father is the maintenance supervisor for the complex. His daughter, age 12, is my daughter's best friend. Father had a live-in girlfriend who recently moved out amongst much drama and apparently a huge fight. That woman had a daughter, age 9, also friends with my daughter. So far, so good?

The gf also had a five-ish year old daughter and a 15 year old. The father, "Duane", has a 20 year old who has one baby of a little over a year, and she's pregnant again by a different man. GF is over a lot, and I suspect it isn't as over as it seems. All of these people live in the apartment off and on, and Duane's other daughter will be coming back shortly, so there's anywhere from 9 to 11 people living there. It's hard for me to follow, too.

I don't know if there's any physical abuse going on, except for the fact that all of the adults are smokers, so heavy that the smoke comes up through my window. They have also tried to get me to take the five-year old to the pool when I take my kids, but I refuse. I do know there is a lot of shouting and fighting, and that I hear the baby crying every night. It just sounds like a poor situation all around.

My question: Is this sufficient to call CPS, as I am required to do? I can do this anonymously, although I bet they'd figure it out. Or, do I approach Duane with my concerns and the position I'm in? He and I get along reasonably well. Or, talk to the leasing office (on property)? Or, nothing? WWYD?

I'm a mandated reporter in NYS, and it's not "hinky feelings," that spur reporting, its suspicion of immediate danger or educational/medical neglect.

Having a chaotic family with adults that smoke is not grounds for reporting. Neither is fighting between adults, unless the children are being threatened or harmed. Reporting should not be done without serious consideration as it can have traumatic consequences for families.

If you are reporting as a mandated reporter you cannot remain anonymous.

Also, I think it's kind of odd that you would seek advice about this online. Isn't there a professional, colleague, or supervisor you could discuss this with?

Heart

[Mister Bent]

As others have stated, it's hard to make a decision without knowing the severity of crying and arguing, or what other signs indicate to you there may be abuse or neglect.

Essentially, however, it is CPS who has to make that decision, and they rely on people like you (or me, or the guy next door) to raise that concern (having now read Heart's post - ETA: Or maybe not!). The concern, I think, is that simply getting CPS involved sometimes tips a not-so-great situation, into a truly bad one. It's unfortunate, but true, and puts you in the situation of having to roll the dice.

If I were in your shoes, I think I'd at least be trying to find out what kind of track record CPS in my area had. Are they known for yanking children from homes, or helping to facilitate for over-stressed families by finding resources, providing support, etc.

[tantalizingfemme]

This is from the Arkansas.Gov website. It may help. :)


What is abuse?
Abuse can be physical or sexual. It includes non-accidental physical injury, shaking a baby, tying a child up, and giving or exposing a child to alcohol or other drugs. Reasonable and moderate discipline (such as spanking) is generally not considered abuse as long as it does not cause injury more serious than transient pain or minor temporary marks and is administered by a parent or guardian. Arkansas code 12-12-503

What is neglect?
Neglect is failing to provide for appropriate food, shelter, clothing, and medical care for a child. It is also failing to provide an education for a child: home schooling is NOT considered educational neglect. Neglect also includes failing to prevent abuse of a child. Leaving a child in a situation that puts the juvenile at risk of harm (such as leaving a young child alone at home or in a vehicle) is also considered neglect. Arkansas code 12-12-503

Do I have to report abuse or neglect?
If you are a mandated reporter, you are required to report suspected abuse or neglect. Mandated reporters are:

•Child care worker or foster care worker
•Coroner
•Day care center worker
•Dentist
•Dental Hygienist
•Domestic abuse advocate
•Domestic Violence shelter employee
•Domestic violence shelter volunteer
•Employee of DHHS
•Employee working under contract for DYS
•Foster Parent
•Judge
•Law Enforcement Official
•Licensed nurse
•Any medical personnel who may be engaged in admission, examination or treatment Mental Health Professional
•Osteopath
•Peace Officer
•Physician
•Prosecuting Attorney
•Resident intern
•School counselor
•School Official
•Social Worker
•Surgeon
•Teacher
•Court Appointed Special Advocate staff member or volunteer
•Juvenile intake or probation officer
•Child Advocacy Center Employee
•Clergyman
TOP

I’m a mandated reporter – why wouldn’t the hotline accept my call? The hotline can only accept a call if what the caller reports meets the legal definitions of child abuse or neglect and if the child or family can be located.

What information will the hotline operator need? In order to accept the call, the hotline operator needs to know

•What happened
•Enough information to locate the child.
It is very helpful to also provide:

•The name and age of the child
•The caregiver’s name and address
•The county where the incident occurred or the child resides
•How the person calling knows the family
•Whether the child has injuries
•When the child was last seen and by whom
Having the following information can make the investigation go faster:

•Names of others in the home
•Where the child is located now
•Whether there are safety concerns in the home (alcohol/drugs, weapons, etc.)
•Who else knows or was told of the situation
•Whether there has been a report made to the local police

I snipped and clipped. Not sure if you looked at this already. Good luck!

[moxie]

As a therapist, I worked only with clients with open CPS cases for years in my current state of residence. And I am basing everything I am saying on my experience and rules here in my state.

I have made numerous reports, none of which were anonymous and many of which were not investigated by CPS; however, the anonymity of an anonymous report is based on the fact that they won't be able to follow up with you to get more details. If you give your name and such when you make a report, the investigative and on-going (if it gets to that point) CPS workers ARE NOT supposed to tell the family they are investigating/open on who made the report. That part is supposed to always remains anonymous to the family no matter if you made an anonymous report or not. Does this always happen? Hell no. But it is supposed to, at least here it is.

I would talk to the apartment complex about the smoke if you can smell it all the way in your apartment, I would do that whether there were kids or not because I am persnickety about that. If the "fight" between the guy and his GF got physical there is the whole domestic violence aspect you need to report. If not, and you do not suspect any physical abuse or obvious neglect,I would say that you would have to have a REALLY good relationship with Duane to be able to talk with him about it because if you don't he may feel like you are trying to tell him how to parent and are meddling.

[Outlaw]

I say...

Watch and listen first, and ask yourself...

Is this child being abused?

In Massachusetts, abuse is defined as any non-accidental act by a caretaker
upon a child under age 18 which causes, or creates a substantial risk of,
physical or emotional injury...

Is this child being neglected?

In Massachusetts neglect is defined as the failure by a caretaker, either deliberately or through negligence/inability, to take those actions necessary to provide a child with minimally adequate food, clothing, shelter, medical care, supervision, emotional stability and growth, or other essential care; as long as that inability is not due to poverty or disability alone...

Does this child need to be protected from the adults charged with their care?

and

What is the harm to the child?

Physical Injury: like death, broken bones, blood on the surface of the brain, burns, internal injuries, swelling, bruising, addiction/exposure to drugs in utero...

Emotional Injury: an injury of impairment, a disorder of the intellectual
or psychological capacity of a child that can be as evidenced by observation or any substantial reduction in the child’s ability to function within a normal
range of performance and behavior...

Overcrowding and smoking CAN cause harm to a child...but so can peanuts.

You don't have to like how other people live or even share their values, but visiting Child Protective Services upon a family comes with a huge burden in and of itself.

Decision making motivated liability and the potential harm to self/career/license are emotionally motivated. Having some criteria around what constitutes abuse and what is the harm to the child helps people make more logical decisions even in an emotionally charged environment.

I hope this discussion has been helpful to you.

[Soft*Silver]

my daughter was in her first year of teaching kindergarten last year and she came to me one night and asked me if she should report something. I will tell you what I told her. Yours is not to determine if there is abuse or not going on. Yours is to call in suspicion of abuse. Just because you call in as a mandated reporter, doesnt mean the Childrens Services will report you are the one who called in the information. Especially in your circumstance where you are a neighbor, not a teacher of these children. Leave the investigative stuff up to the professionals in that arena. You arent calling in to be malicious. You are calling in because you have doubts about the welfare of the children.

Who knows, maybe they have a record of calls already into the CPS. Maybe they dont. Maybe the baby cries because its miserable in the smoking environment. Maybe because its hungry. Maybe because it has an infected diaper rash. So many maybes....none of which YOU need to worry about if its true or not. YOU need to just report it and let them investigate. If its nothing, fine. Its nothing. If its something, then you saved a kid.

the only way you can get in trouble FOR calling in, is if you did it for malicious reasons. Obviously thats not the intent here. :phonegab:

[Outlaw]

CPS workers ARE NOT supposed to tell the family they are investigating/open on who made the report. That part is supposed to always remains anonymous to the family no matter if you made an anonymous report or not. Does this always happen? Hell no. But it is supposed to, at least here it is.


In Massachusetts, The Department of Children and Families does not release the name of the reporter unless the case is referred to The District Attorney's Office for Prosecution, and then the Department can release any reporter's identifying information to that office.

Laws, policy and procedure vary greatly from state to state as evidenced in the significant differences I've noted while working in the same field in both New York and Massachusetts.

[Mister Bent]

As a therapist, I worked only with clients with open CPS cases for years in my current state of residence. And I am basing everything I am saying on my experience and rules here in my state.

I have made numerous reports, none of which were anonymous and many of which were not investigated by CPS; however, the anonymity of an anonymous report is based on the fact that they won't be able to follow up with you to get more details. If you give your name and such when you make a report, the investigative and on-going (if it gets to that point) CPS workers ARE NOT supposed to tell the family they are investigating/open on who made the report. That part is supposed to always remains anonymous to the family no matter if you made an anonymous report or not. Does this always happen? Hell no. But it is supposed to, at least here it is.

I would talk to the apartment complex about the smoke if you can smell it all the way in your apartment, I would do that whether there were kids or not because I am persnickety about that. If the "fight" between the guy and his GF got physical there is the whole domestic violence aspect you need to report. If not, and you do not suspect any physical abuse or obvious neglect,I would say that you would have to have a REALLY good relationship with Duane to be able to talk with him about it because if you don't he may feel like you are trying to tell him how to parent and are meddling.



This, particularly the entire last paragraph seems exactly right. Adult, sound and addresses the reasonable concerns.

And after all that, keep paying attention.

[tantalizingfemme]

my daughter was in her first year of teaching kindergarten last year and she came to me one night and asked me if she should report something. I will tell you what I told her. Yours is not to determine if there is abuse or not going on. Yours is to call in suspicion of abuse. Just because you call in as a mandated reporter, doesnt mean the Childrens Services will report you are the one who called in the information. Especially in your circumstance where you are a neighbor, not a teacher of these children. Leave the investigative stuff up to the professionals in that arena. You arent calling in to be malicious. You are calling in because you have doubts about the welfare of the children.

Who knows, maybe they have a record of calls already into the CPS. Maybe they dont. Maybe the baby cries because its miserable in the smoking environment. Maybe because its hungry. Maybe because it has an infected diaper rash. So many maybes....none of which YOU need to worry about if its true or not. YOU need to just report it and let them investigate. If its
nothing, fine. Its nothing. If its something, then you saved a kid.

the only way you can get in trouble FOR calling in, is if you did it for malicious reasons. Obviously thats not the intent here. :phonegab:

Those maybes can potentially cause some serious damage.

There is no room for assumption or personal opinion or heresay when it comes to something as serious as calling CPS. Facts are facts are facts.

CPS isn't a game.... it is very serious.

[Novelafemme]

Such great advice here. And I will throw in my two cents as well.

I lived in an apartment complex for almost a year and saw some crazy stuff go on...one situation that was very similar to yours. What I ended up doing was calling the non-emergency 911 number and they patched me through to the department in charge of anonymous child welfare concerns. They took my call very seriously and converged on the apartment within 24 hours. I also called an animal abuse hotline as there was a dog being severely neglected there as well. They also came within 24 hours. As it turned out, the mother had allowed her ex-boyfriend back into the apartment even after he had been incarcerated for 4 years for molesting her then 5 year old daughter. This little girl played with my daughters and confided in them that she had to sleep in bed with them at night. I simply could not sit by and do nothing.

Trust your gut and be an advocate for the innocent. I have never once regretted my decision.

[tantalizingfemme]

This little girl played with my daughters and confided in them that she had to sleep in bed with them at night. I simply could not sit by and do nothing.
Trust your gut and be an advocate for the innocent. I have never once regretted my decision.

I think that you are to be commended for stepping up and helping that young girl! You took information presented to you by the victim and moved forward.

To me, that is much different than watching something from the outside and making an assumption based on your own opinions, thoughts, beliefs, and/or gut instinct and then calling it in.

That little girl is lucky you were there.

ETA: I think what I am struggling with in some of the posts is this attitude to just "throw caution to the wind" and report it so CPS and let "them" sort it all out. That is not what they are there for and there can be very serious, long-term reprocussions to it.

[Novelafemme]

true...but even if i didn't have that first-hand information I would have made the same choice. Placing a call to authorities to investigate a suspicious living arrangement is well within ones rights. Especially when infants and children are involved.

[Soft*Silver]

I am not suggesting calling on a whim. She was clear about her concerns. I am also addressing her as a professional to a professional. Again, she is not doing this on a whim. No one suggested calling on a whim...thats when reprocussions would occur.


ETA: I think what I am struggling with in some of the posts is this attitude to just "throw caution to the wind" and report it so CPS and let "them" sort it all out. That is not what they are there for and there can be very serious, long-term reprocussions to it.

[tantalizingfemme]

I am not suggesting calling on a whim. She was clear about her concerns. I am also addressing her as a professional to a professional. Again, she is not doing this on a whim. No one suggested calling on a whim...thats when reprocussions would occur.

And this is what I am talking about... whims. You must have some kind of factual information behind accusing someone of something; not just "I think", "I feel" , I believe".

[Heart]

Adult domestic violence, (I mean actual violence and control, not yelling and arguing), in and of itself, is not reportable to CPS, it's a 911 call. This is an important distinction. If children are caught in the crossfire -(or you suspect, from what you hear and see that they might be), then reporting may be necessary.

Be aware that when CPS is called into a DV situation, they have on many occasions removed children from non-offending mothers and left the mother there to deal with her abuser. They have also charged non-offending mothers with failing to protect their children because they "allowed" DV to happen in the children's presence. CPS is notorious for punishing victim mothers, and traumatizing children through removal, and doing nothing to hold abusers accountable. In NY there was a class action lawsuit related to this called Nicholson vs Scoppetta. The class won, and ACS was ordered by a Federal judge to stop removing children from battered mothers and instead offer safety options and services.