Is revenge OK?

[Reader]

I am not trying to start a war. I think about things a lot. I have been puzzling over the concept of revenge for about a month or so and I am looking for some thoughtful input on the issue.

In a nutshell: Is revenge OK? If not, why? If so, why?

NOTE: I am not interested in a heated emotional smack-down, but rather a calm and thoughtful debate with a respectful exchange of ideas and rational analysis, if possible.

This has been on my mind of late because of a spiritual discussion I was having with someone in RL.

If anyone knows of a board that is better suited for this sort of post, please PM me. I would love to find such a board for this sort of thing.

[atomiczombie]

I am not trying to start a war. I think about things a lot. I have been puzzling over the concept of revenge for about a month or so and I am looking for some thoughtful input on the issue.

In a nutshell: Is revenge OK? If not, why? If so, why?

NOTE: I am not interested in a heated emotional smack-down, but rather a calm and thoughtful debate with a respectful exchange of ideas and rational analysis, if possible.

This has been on my mind of late because of a spiritual discussion I was having with someone in RL.

If anyone knows of a board that is better suited for this sort of post, please PM me. I would love to find such a board for this sort of thing.

Well there's one thing I am certain about: revenge and justice are two totally separate things.

[Linus]

I am not trying to start a war. I think about things a lot. I have been puzzling over the concept of revenge for about a month or so and I am looking for some thoughtful input on the issue.

In a nutshell: Is revenge OK? If not, why? If so, why?

NOTE: I am not interested in a heated emotional smack-down, but rather a calm and thoughtful debate with a respectful exchange of ideas and rational analysis, if possible.

This has been on my mind of late because of a spiritual discussion I was having with someone in RL.

If anyone knows of a board that is better suited for this sort of post, please PM me. I would love to find such a board for this sort of thing.

To me revenge ends being an extreme response to something and one that generally bounces back against someone. While in the heat of the moment, the act and result may be desirable the long term is, to me, more destructive and more harmful.

When my mom was killed in 1992, I thought that revenge might be a nice option (amongst other negative thoughts) but rather than that, revenge of living my own life to fullest and striving beyond what was expected of me (that is, striving for my own success rather than someone else's demise) proved to be both beneficial for soul and my own sense of justice. So to me revenge against someone (an action or word against them) really isn't ever a good idea.

Revenge by being successful and rising above a battle, to me, however, is a perfect response.

[Diva]

When I was young, I always thought revenge would be sweet when someone had wronged me. I never acted on it, as I kept hearing my Mom's damned sweet voice in my ear.....

Now that I'm older, I find that revenge isn't necessary at all.....what goes around comes around. Every ill deed will come back to 'haunt' them in some form or fashion. And I just don't have the energy to make a plan, first of all; and second, I'm SO not giving them my power. Because if I try to get even, that's exactly what will have happened.

[msW8ing]

*snipped*
Revenge by being successful and rising above a battle, to me, however, is a perfect response.

Very well said Linus and I so agree with you and with Diva when she stated NOT giving them the power. Revenge in any form takes alot of energy..whether we feel it's the right thing to do..and eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth kind of thing..but that is raw emotions..me personally I believe it takes a lot more strength and courage to NOT act upon those raw emotions..but rather to live a full/happy, loving life and let Kharma do it's job..because eventually what comes around goes around. I've witnessed that for myself. Just today as a matter of fact..my faith in Kharma and the Universe was restored.

[Rockinonahigh]

Revenge,once I wanted to give someone a huge dose of it,I never did.I may well get mad moan and groan for a bit,but in reality its just not in my make up to get revenge on anyone.This person who wronged me got a huge dose of bad flash back karma with a big dish of humble pie wich she choked on for a year or two because when it karma bites someone one the a$$ for doing such wrong to another or group of people, getting over it isnt easy.This person thought she had quite a following in the horse training buisness that when the bottom fell out of it all that she wouldnt have any problem of just contenueing things as they were, only somewhere else,well that didnt happen not by any stretch of the imagination.Now if someone messes with my family, all bets are off because I will use every leagle means to defend my family..I dont know anyone who wouldnt defend there loved ones.

[imperfect_cupcake]

depends on the revenge, I think. The last time I was raped, I was given the opportunity to get some back by giving the dickhead a large piece of overly strong space cake I made. I had told his girlfriend what happened and she was going to dump him right away but we came up with a plan... I'd give her the cake she'd leave it in the fridge (he always ate her sweets, so he'd chow it) she'd then kick him out just before it set in. And this stuff was brain stomping. Most people couldn't tie their shoes after a piece 1/3 the size.

I thought 4 hours of stoned mental anguish and 4 hours of paralysis was better than getting someone from the docs to knee cap him so it was all set to go when my then boyfriend threw a fit about me doing it so I asked for the cake back and it never happened. Still regret I didn't do it.


If someone grabs me sexually, I will slap them/hit them, fullstop. No one ever touches me like that again without my permission - and it's time people fucking thought about what their hands are doing.

I absolutely do not believe in things like death penalties or stalking or things on those level type revenge.

[pajama]

In my younger days I would think "I wish this would happen, or that would befall this/or that bastard" for doing me wrong. But I never thought to take that revenge myself.

When I had a child, I thought what I would do if anyone ever harmed him. In that case I had revenge and an escape plan thoroughly thought out. Because ultimately it would end in someone's death. Thankfully that plan never had to be put into effect. But I would definetly have avenged my child. Even now that he is nearing adulthood, I would still take revenge on certain actions.

As to other forms of revenge, I believe in karma. While it's very hard and often frustrating to sit back and wait for it. I have to have faith that those I percieve as having done me wrong, will some day get their due. I don't turn to revenge because I feel darkened by it when I have thought it about someone. I also believe that what we put out there comes back to us ten-fold.....I can be a twisted evil fuck....I sure don't want that coming back to ME tenfold. LOL

A

[girl_dee]

In my younger angrier days I did seek revenge at times, not in horrible ways but in ways I am not proud of.. now the older, calmer version of me does not seek revenge, and honestly no one in my past deserves it.

In severe cases there is no revenge that would justify the crime... not any that I could invoke, life has a way though. What goes around does come around, and that goes for the bad and the good.

[ruffryder]

no. that's why there is karma. God will take care of the acts of life.

[Abigail Crabby]

I was a grudge holder - I held my grudges hard and fast to my chest and they ate away at me.

Until one day I stumbled upon a saying and a lil light bulb went off over my head.

Holding a grudge is like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. (http://getsomehairapy.wordpress.com/2007/12/02/holding-a-grudge-is-like-drinking-poison-and-waiting-for-the-other-person-to-die/)


I leave it to Karma now and my life is more bountiful and peaceful. So no, I don't seek revenge - it's like holding that grudge - in the long run it will come back twicefold on me. Personally I find it best to let go and Let God

[NJFemmie]

Revenge is a waste of time and energy. The best revenge is to move on with your life and be happy. Those that do things that might elicit a revenge-type response usually find themselves living a personal-hell type life anyway. Engaging yourself in that muck will only drag you into that drama.

"Revenge is often like biting a dog because the dog bit you. "

[Ebon]

There is no point in revenge. Anyone with bad intentions eventually pays for it, it's Universal Law (karma). In my experience even thinking with bad intentions reaps bad karma so it's easier to forgive and make your life and yourself lighter, let the other person hold on to the dense darkness. If you seek revenge your bad intentions will come back to haunt you. It's fucking hard especially when someone does you super wrong but they eventually put themselves into a hole that they need to get out of. Some times people that do "bad things" are our teachers and at the same time they are also learning a lesson. Holding on to grudges is so bad for they body physically and the mind. Let it go, try to forgive and love as much as possible. Hate consumes you, sometimes even more so than the other person.

[JAGG]

I believe in universal law. What goes around comes around. Therefore revenge will only cause something negative to occur in your life. I believe universal law can not be thwarted. Therefore no need to wish something bad on someone else. The universe with all its resourses, will exact its punishment. Every action strikes a cord in eternity. Yours and theirs. My motto is kill them with kindness. Forgive those who have offended you, and when you offend, then you will be forgiven. Just my 2 cents worth.

[girl_dee]

Is casting a spell..... say a skin burning rash spell in the armpit (and other areas) of a certain immigration officer an act of revenge?

[Daktari]

A wise person once told me: Living well is the best revenge.

[JAGG]

Success is the best revenge!

[PinkieLee]

My mother always said.... "the best revenge, is a life well spent"

[Glenn]

Never has the world needed love and forgiveness so much as now. But I also must uphold the ideals of my beloved country and family. If an aggressor ever came here to destroy my family or this country and America needed my help to defend her and retaliate, I would give it- for the love of the people, and to defend the nation on whose land I live. We should do our part to help protect America if you live here, and all those we love in our homes, but at the same time, we must not allow ourselves to be filled with revenge and hatred. A defense plan is good right now, but it will not bring ultimate peace.

[Ebon]

Never has the world needed love and forgiveness so much as now. But I also must uphold the ideals of my beloved country and family. If an aggressor ever came here to destroy my family or this country and America needed my help to defend her and retaliate, I would give it- for the love of the people, and to defend the nation on whose land I live. We should do our part to help protect America if you live here, and all those we love in our homes, but at the same time, we must not allow ourselves to be filled with revenge and hatred. A defense plan is good right now, but it will not bring ultimate peace.

If anyone came to "destroy" or "take over" America it would be karma.

[Reader]

depends on the revenge, I think. The last time I was raped, I was given the opportunity to get some back by giving the dickhead a large piece of overly strong space cake I made. I had told his girlfriend what happened and she was going to dump him right away but we came up with a plan... I'd give her the cake she'd leave it in the fridge (he always ate her sweets, so he'd chow it) she'd then kick him out just before it set in. And this stuff was brain stomping. Most people couldn't tie their shoes after a piece 1/3 the size.

I thought 4 hours of stoned mental anguish and 4 hours of paralysis was better than getting someone from the docs to knee cap him so it was all set to go when my then boyfriend threw a fit about me doing it so I asked for the cake back and it never happened. Still regret I didn't do it.


If someone grabs me sexually, I will slap them/hit them, fullstop. No one ever touches me like that again without my permission - and it's time people fucking thought about what their hands are doing.

I absolutely do not believe in things like death penalties or stalking or things on those level type revenge.

Sister, I apologize and am sorry for what someone did to you. I apologize as a member of the human society we live in. I am sure you know that you are not alone and I admire your strength in getting through that.

Also, I agree with you that self-defense is not at all the same as revenge. Thanks for sharing that.

[NJFemmie]

Revenge and avenge are separate things.

http://www.lolcats.com/images/u/07/42/lolcatsdotcomapi2f05yghu6i76g.jpg

http://www.heavingdeadcats.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/funny-pictures-your-cats-plan-to-take-revenge.jpg

[JAGG]

Never has the world needed love and forgiveness so much as now. But I also must uphold the ideals of my beloved country and family. If an aggressor ever came here to destroy my family or this country and America needed my help to defend her and retaliate, I would give it- for the love of the people, and to defend the nation on whose land I live. We should do our part to help protect America if you live here, and all those we love in our homes, but at the same time, we must not allow ourselves to be filled with revenge and hatred. A defense plan is good right now, but it will not bring ultimate peace.

That is not revenge, that is self defense. Big difference between revenge and defending yourself.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Sister, I apologize and am sorry for what someone did to you. I apologize as a member of the human society we live in. I am sure you know that you are not alone and I admire your strength in getting through that.

Also, I agree with you that self-defense is not at all the same as revenge. Thanks for sharing that.

No need to apologise for something you aren't responsible for. it's happened a lot and one of my longest abusers, I have no desire to get revenge from. Most of the people who have raped me, I've never felt that urge. It was just a perfect set up at the time and I have very VERY few regrets in life - that I didn't take it is one.

self defence stops people from continuing - I don't mean that. I mean, you touch me without my permission, I'm going to physically make it so that next time you think about doing that to someone you'll consider they may deck you. Too many dykes grab my tits on night out. WAY too many.

But as for hanging onto things, I actually don't. but if I'm given an opportunity on a silver plater (through the offending party's behaviour) to do something within reason (not going to permanently harm) I'm not shy/hesitant about taking it. But I won't go too far out of my way to bother. And I'm not the gossipy/vendictive type. I don't work that way.

I don't believe in karma, I don't believe in "energies", I don't believe in any form of god. I do believe in harvesting behaviour that one has put out to others because people get sick of the shit though - or putting yourself in harms way from the lifestyle one leads.

I also believe in acting in a way that one feels good about owning. I'm fine with how my attitude around this feels. It doesn't feel icky or nasty or grudging. It feels like a very strong boundary line.

[Corkey]

Revenge is a waste of emotion and time, it only brings one down to the lowest common denominator. Living the best life one can is the best way to handle those who would do you harm.

[DapperButch]

To answer the, "where should I have put this thread?" question, I would have gone with the "Thinking Harder" forum. But, I don't think anyone cares.

In terms of revenge. No, I don't think it is a good idea. Not healthy for you to hold onto the anger. That shit can tear you up inside.

[atomiczombie]

Ok I am curious: How many of you who feel revenge is a waste of time or that it's not healthy, are in favor of the death penalty?

[Blade]

That depends on the situation but for the most part I'm a firm believer in If you are patient enough long enough....what goes around comes around.

[Glenn]

My definition of revenge is an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, and believe it's my right when I'm sure that all my compassion and forgiveness won't stop my enemy from harming me and others.

[Corkey]

Ok I am curious: How many of you who feel revenge is a waste of time or that it's not healthy, are in favor of the death penalty?

I am in favor of the death penalty, but not as revenge. Only the worst of the worst and child murderers. There just isn't enough punishment for that kind of criminal.

[kannon]

Ok I am curious: How many of you who feel revenge is a waste of time or that it's not healthy, are in favor of the death penalty?

Good question. The courts and the politicians would consider the death penalty justice. I think it's an act of revenge. The state avenges the death of the victim. It's said to give closure to the family.

[J. Mason]

Ok I am curious: How many of you who feel revenge is a waste of time or that it's not healthy, are in favor of the death penalty?


I am in favor of the death penalty but believe in revenge when needed.

But again that is just my opinion!

[Nat]

In a nutshell: Is revenge OK? If not, why? If so, why?


I'm not sure what "ok" is.

I tend to think revenge and/or retaliation involves natural instinct. Maybe it does serve some sort of purpose for our animal selves.

But when you look at the forest instead of the trees, revenge just makes things worse. i think revenge may harm the person who has hurt you, but it also hurts/damages you.

An exercise I recently heard of for dealing with the times one's been hurt, is to take that hurt and think about whether you've ever hurt a person in a similar way. Sometimes the answer is no, but I think it's a good exercise. When people do bad stuff, it's on them. Karma or not, it's on them. I think the best a person can do is to take responsibility for healing any wounds created to the best of our ability so that we don't end up hurting others due to our on wounds.

I think it's true what I heard on a recent Zen podcast: Hurt people hurt people and healed people heal people. So focusing on healing is, I believe, far more beneficial to oneself and society than getting back at somebody else.

Sometimes easier said then done - I'm afraid I've been spiteful far too many times in my life due to a pereived wrong.

[apretty]

In a nutshell: Is revenge OK? If not, why? If so, why?


Depends on how you define 'ok.' Are you okay with seeking/succeeding at revenge at your own expense?

My dad says, and I believe this to be true, when you're after "revenge--Dig two graves."

I think this is the original quote: “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”

[Reader]

I'm not sure what "ok" is.

I tend to think revenge and/or retaliation involves natural instinct. Maybe it does serve some sort of purpose for our animal selves.

But when you look at the forest instead of the trees, revenge just makes things worse. i think revenge may harm the person who has hurt you, but it also hurts/damages you.

An exercise I recently heard of for dealing with the times one's been hurt, is to take that hurt and think about whether you've ever hurt a person in a similar way. Sometimes the answer is no, but I think it's a good exercise. When people do bad stuff, it's on them. Karma or not, it's on them. I think the best a person can do is to take responsibility for healing any wounds created to the best of our ability so that we don't end up hurting others due to our on wounds.

I think it's true what I heard on a recent Zen podcast: Hurt people hurt people and healed people heal people. So focusing on healing is, I believe, far more beneficial to oneself and society than getting back at somebody else.

Sometimes easier said then done - I'm afraid I've been spiteful far too many times in my life due to a pereived wrong.

In a word: SUPERB. Thank you for your thoughtful post.

[Soft*Silver]

I believe in revenge. But it had better be for a good reason, nothing stupid like someone breaking you and your partner up. Harm my daughter in a peak way, and by god and all the angels, I will seek revenge. You can call it any word you want, avenge, revenge, defend, etc. It will still result in the same action and result. And of course, I will pay any consequence associated with it. We can do anything we want to do as long as we are willing to pay the consequences. For this, I would.

Other than the above example, no one has done anything to me in this life that has needed revenge. Oh I thought about it twice in my life, both associated with past relationships. But I had to put my energy into healing, which is positive energy, instead of destruction, which is negative energy. Once healed, I no longer had the need for revenge.

I do know my level of hurt in relationships is at its peak. I dont know how I would be if someone hurt me deeply again in a relationship. Quite frankly, I dont trust myself to that level of hurt....

[Reader]

I am in favor of the death penalty but believe in revenge when needed.

But again that is just my opinion!



I wish I could express myself better on this, but, I wondered if there was an actual scientific, or non-emotional, reason to be against revenge and cruelty, etc.

Like, could someone convince others, using nothing but logical debating skills or science, why revenge or cruelty is "wrong". For example, to my knowledge, animals do not partake in revenge, and they do not seem to particularly be involved in intentional cruelty. Why?

[Corkey]

I wish I could express myself better on this, but, I wondered if there was an actual scientific, or non-emotional, reason to be against revenge and cruelty, etc.

Like, could someone convince others, using nothing but logical debating skills or science, why revenge or cruelty is "wrong". For example, to my knowledge, animals do not partake in revenge, and they do not seem to particularly be involved in intentional cruelty. Why?



You must not herd of the Chimpanzees who will go after other tribes. It is granted a rarity, but it does happen.

[Dominique]

. For example, to my knowledge, animals do not partake in revenge, and they do not seem to particularly be involved in intentional cruelty. Why?



Hi Hunter!

I don't want to derail, but Dogs, they have a little chip in their brain that is self activating, and the sweetest most loving dogs, some times attack another dog. It's called they prey mechanism. However, I don't think they know it is intentional cruelty. Humans perceive it as such.

Good thread. Makes me check myself.

[Nat]

My dog pees on the floor a few times a week around dinner time. My mom swears it's because she's mad she didn't get soft food. I think it's because she's old and senile (and deaf and blind - so possibly disoriented to boot). But who knows what's going through her head when it happens?

My cat is pretty spiteful toward other cats, but I don't think it's vengeful. I think he pretty much lives in the moment.

I don't believe in the death penalty, but if you look at human history, it seems to me like there has been a long-lived thirst for blood. I kinda think the death penalty might keep it in check.

There was a really interesting podcast a while back - here's the transcript. (http://being.publicradio.org/programs/2010/revenge-forgiveness/transcript.shtml)

Tidbits:

Today, "Getting Revenge and Forgiveness." Michael McCullough is a professor of psychology at the University of Miami in Coral Gables, Florida, where he directs the Laboratory for Social and Clinical Psychology and also teaches in the Department of Religious Studies. I spoke with him in 2008, after the publication of his book Beyond Revenge. For that work, he analyzed extensive data from social scientific studies on humans and animals as well as biology and brain chemistry. We'll spend most of this hour talking about what Michael McCullough is learning about forgiveness. But he stresses that to reimagine the human capacity for forgiveness, we must first challenge our ideas about the human inclination to seek revenge.

....................

Mr. McCullough: Japanese macaques are very status-conscious individuals. They're very intimidated by power; let's just put it that way...So if you're a high-ranking Japanese macaque and you harm a low-ranking Japanese macaque, that low-ranking individual is not going to harm you back, right? It's just too intimidating. It's too anxiety provoking. But what they do instead, and this still astonishes me, is they will find a relative of that high-ranking individual and go seek that low-ranking cousin out or nephew and harm him in retaliation.

Tippett: Really?

Mr. McCullough: Yeah. So it's as if they're saying, 'You know, I'm not powerful enough to get you back, but what I'm going to do is I'm going to go harm your nephew.'

Tippett: Now that does sound like human behavior, doesn't it?

Mr. McCullough: Right. And here's the kicker, is when they're harming this nephew, most of the time they're doing it while the high-ranking individual is watching. They want the high-ranking individual to know that, you know, you can harm me. I know you can harm me. I know you're more powerful than I am. But rest assured, I know how to get at what you care about and what you value.

Tippett: You know, I had this realization a few years ago when we did a program on the death penalty. It might seem simple but it seems so stunning to me to realize that the criminal justice system, and even, and especially, the death penalty in history, was progress because before there was any kind of criminal justice system, human societies regulated themselves by precisely that kind of revenge you're describing.

Mr. McCullough: Throughout most of human history we have not lived in complex societies with governments and states and law enforcement and prisons and contracts that we could enforce in a court to get people to do what they agreed to do. So the mechanism that individuals relied upon to protect themselves and to protect their loved ones and to protect their property was fear of retaliation. And if they could broadcast that fear of retaliation to the individuals they lived with, to their neighbors, to the people on the other side of the hill, and you could cultivate a reputation as a hothead so people knew not to mess with you, that was like an insurance policy. And you're absolutely right that in a lot of the world this is still going on.

Tippett: Right.

Mr. McCullough: And any time you disrupt that system, that system of government, that system of policing, that system of law enforcement, so people can't trust that their interests are going to be protected, that desire for revenge comes back. And people will take revenge back into their own hands to protect themselves.

Tippett: And I think you're also saying in your research that — and also in terms of what we know about the brain — that the emotions, the reactions, that arise in response to grievance are also — we are hard-wired to have those reactions, that they serve a purpose. I mean, I remember Sister Helen Prejean saying to me when we did that work on the death penalty, you know, she's a great opponent of the death penalty — she said, "Anger is a moral response," you know?

Mr. McCullough: That's right. It certainly is. Anger in response to injustice is as reliable a human emotional response as happiness is to winning the lottery, or grief is to losing a loved one. And if you look at the brain of somebody who has just been harmed by someone — they've been ridiculed or harassed or insulted — we can put those people into technology that allows us to see what their brains are doing, right? So we can look at sort of what your brain looks like on revenge. It looks exactly like the brain of somebody who is thirsty and is just about to get a sweet drink to drink or somebody who's hungry who's about to get a piece of chocolate to eat.

Tippett: It's like the satisfaction of a craving?

Mr. McCullough: It is exactly like that. It is literally a craving. What you see is high activation in the brain's reward system. So, again, this is one of the messages it's important for me to try to get across. The desire for revenge does not come from some sick dark part of how our minds operate. It is a craving to solve a problem and accomplish a goal.

[J. Mason]

I wish I could express myself better on this, but, I wondered if there was an actual scientific, or non-emotional, reason to be against revenge and cruelty, etc.

Like, could someone convince others, using nothing but logical debating skills or science, why revenge or cruelty is "wrong". For example, to my knowledge, animals do not partake in revenge, and they do not seem to particularly be involved in intentional cruelty. Why?



I don't think you can convince others, but brainwash yes, like a cult does. But my opinion again!

But I have seen animals partake in revenge and it is not a pretty picture, my dog has the scars to prove it too.

[Nat]

I wish I could express myself better on this, but, I wondered if there was an actual scientific, or non-emotional, reason to be against revenge and cruelty, etc.

Like, could someone convince others, using nothing but logical debating skills or science, why revenge or cruelty is "wrong". For example, to my knowledge, animals do not partake in revenge, and they do not seem to particularly be involved in intentional cruelty. Why?



I thought I'd quote a bit more from that transcript, because it may be some of the meat you are looking for:

...............

Tippett: And then I guess what is especially intriguing about your work as well, and perhaps even more surprising, even kind of takes us out of our boxes, than the fact that revenge is natural is that you are really suggesting also from a scientific perspective that we have a forgiveness instinct, an aptitude for forgiveness, and that has been crafted by natural selection just like revenge.

Mr. McCullough: I expected to find, frankly, less research as I dug through hundreds of scientific articles on the naturalness of forgiveness but, boy, was I wrong. As it turns out, a lot of biologists have been trying to figure out what allows human beings to be the cooperative creatures that we are. We're cooperative with each other in a way that really makes us pretty unique among mammals for sure. You know, we cooperate with our relatives, but lots of animals do that. But we go further and we cooperate with people we've never met. We cooperate with people that we're not related to. And by virtue of our abilities to cooperate with each other, we can build magnificent cities and radio stations and do all kinds of wonderful things. But one of the ingredients you have to have to get individuals to cooperate with each other is a tolerance for mistakes.

Tippett: Hmm. Interesting.

Mr. McCullough: You can't get organisms that are willing to hang in there with each other through thick and thin and make good things happen despite the roadblocks and the bumps along the way if they aren't willing to tolerate each other's mistakes. Sometimes if we're cooperatively hunting — let's say we're some sort of animal, that we're some sort of animal that works together to hunt — sometimes I'm going to let you down. And maybe it's not even intentional, but I'm going to get distracted and I'm going to make a mistake. And if you take each of those mistakes as the last word about my cooperative disposition, you might just give up and so no cooperation gets done. So, really, our ability, and across the animal kingdom many animals' ability to cooperate with each other and make things happen that they can't do on their own is undergirded by an ability to forgive each other for occasional defections and mistakes.

Tippett: Here's a passage from your book — which, again, a lot of this just seems so basic, doesn't it, when you articulate it, but it's things we don't see or think about. I mean, you know, you said that everyday acts of forgiveness are incredibly common among people who know each other.

Mr. McCullough: Right.

Tippett: You know, we think of forgiveness as these heroic acts and there are always these heroic examples of forgiveness. But you said we think of it as this balm for great wounds. But you said, "Yet, in daily life, forgiveness is more often like a Band-Aid on a scrape and at first glance perhaps only slightly more interesting. But, of course, uninteresting doesn't mean unimportant."

Mr. McCullough: Right. And this, again, was part of my attempt to do violence, I guess, to this metaphor of forgiveness as this difficult thing that we have to consciously practice and learn, because we don't know how to do it on their own. I forgive my seven-year-old son every day. Right?

Tippett: Right.

Mr. McCullough: Because he's an active, inquisitive seven-year-old who sometimes accidentally elbows me in the mouth when we're cuddling and sometimes puts Crayons on the walls. And yet it seems demeaning to call it forgiveness.

Tippett: To even call it forgiveness. Right.

Mr. McCullough: Right. I wouldn't dignify it with the term forgiveness. It's just what you do with your children. You know, you accept their limitations and you move on. He broke my tooth once when I was drinking out of a water glass.

Tippett: Right. Right.

Mr. McCullough: I mean, parents have a million of these stories, right?

Tippett: Right.

Mr. McCullough: But you don't put any effort into forgiving. It naturally happens and you move on. And there's a great evolutionary story about why it comes so easy in those kinds of circumstances too.

Tippett: Mm-hmm. Which is pretty obvious, I guess.

Mr. McCullough: Yeah. I mean, evolution wasn't kind to individuals who would seek revenge against their genetic relatives, bottom line, right? So we have this natural tolerance for the misbehavior of our children. So it is at that level you're talking about incredibly mundane. We put no effort into it. It happens every day a thousand times. We would never even give it a second thought. And yet we do it over and over again.

Tippett: One of the most high-profile figures of public forgiveness in the U.S. in recent years was Bud Welch. His 23-year-old daughter Julie died in the bombing of the Murrah Federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995. Here's a statement Bud Welch made prior to the 2001 execution of Timothy McVeigh, the terrorist responsible for the bombing.


Bud Welch: The first month after the bombing, I didn't even want Tim McVeigh and Terry McNichols to even have trials. I simply wanted them fried. And then I finally come to realize that the reason that Julie and 167 others were dead is because of vengeance and rage. And when we take him out of his cage to kill him, it's going to be the same thing. We will keep the circle of violence going. Number 169 dead is not going to help the family members of the first 168.

Tippett: You do talk about some amazing examples of forgiveness, of public forgiveness, one of them being Bud Welch. But I sometimes think that those kinds of examples that do make the news, like the bombing, also exalt forgiveness as something that's really beyond the reach of most of us most of the time. You know, we kind of wish — we hope that we would be that gracious, perhaps, but it almost feels superhuman.

Mr. McCullough: Right. And if you look at Bud Welch and you look at that story from the outside and you ask yourself how can this man whose daughter was killed in this terrible explosion ever get over his rage, from the outside we have a really hard time imagining that. But if you look at the story of Bud Welch, actually what you find is he had a lot of help along the way. And if you look at the story very carefully, you can actually learn a lot about how the human mind evolved to forgive and what kind of conditions activate that instinct in human minds, because a lot of those conditions ended up falling into place for Bud. In fact, he doesn't talk about forgiveness even for himself in that case as having been some massive struggle.

Tippett: Well, it was incremental, also, wasn't it? I mean, it gets reported as an act, but in fact it was a process.

Mr. McCullough: Yeah, that's right. And along the way, there were events that he actually made happen for himself that turned forgiveness into one of these things that can be easier. For example, he actually sought out Timothy McVeigh's father and visited him one day at the McVeigh home and had this moment he describes when he saw Timothy's picture on the mantle. It was a high school graduation picture. And they were just making small talk and Bud said to McVeigh's father, he said, "God, that's a good-looking kid." And the tears just began pouring out of the elder McVeigh. And what he realized then was that here was another father on the verge of losing a son, of losing a child. And that immediate experience of sympathy and compassion went a tremendous way in facilitating the forgiveness process for Bud.

So right off the bat, this real human interaction starts to turn forgiveness from something difficult to do to something that's easier to do, because this compassion has happened naturally in the course of real human interaction and then suddenly forgiveness is a little easier.

Tippett: So this is getting to one of the really important points I think you make with your work, that if we can understand this forgiveness instinct and how, that even understanding in terms of evolution, that we can start to create conditions where it can be empowered.

Mr. McCullough: Right. The first is safety. Human beings are naturally prone to forgive individuals that they feel safe around. So if we have an offender that is apologizing in a way that seems heartfelt and convincing and has really convinced us that they can't and won't harm us in the same way again, OK, that's a point for forgiveness. A point on the forgiveness side. Again, the human mind evolved for forgiveness to be something worth its while, and any successful organism is unlikely to have a mechanism in it that says, you know, 'Just keep stepping on my neck. It's OK.'

Tippett: Right. Right. Right.

Mr. McCullough: Right. 'But if you can convince me that you're safe, that I don't have to worry about being harmed in the same way a second time, maybe I'm willing to move a little bit forward.'

Tippett: But it seems like that would be the hardest condition or assumption to put in place in the context of many of the worst cycles of revenge in our world.

Mr. McCullough: Sometimes safety comes through things like the rule of law, right?

Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Mr. McCullough: Sometimes safety comes through you as a small-business owner dusting off that employee manual that you don't think about anymore and asking yourself what is in here that would instruct an employee on what to do if they were being systematically harassed by a co-worker and that if there was a real serious infraction it would be dealt with in a way that restored that employee's sense of safety, right?

Tippett: Mm-hmm.

Mr. McCullough: What can you do in your associations? Your condo association, you know, when somebody has a grievance, when the neighbor has a band that he's hired for a party playing at 12:30 on a Friday night, that you know how to make sure that doesn't happen a second time, right? So that you don't then have to say, 'Well, I'm going to get back at that guy myself.'

Tippett: Right.

Mr. McCullough: 'I'm going to leave my garbage cans out all weekend long, which I know he hates,' right?

Tippett: You're talking about revenge in ordinary life, which is where I think we're more comfortable talking about it in terms of warring tribes across the globe.

Mr. McCullough: Well, the thing I like about these principles is they're scalable, right? So we can talk — actually, usually people when they ask me about the book, they're actually less interested in the geopolitical stuff.

Tippett: OK.

Mr. McCullough: But I can, you know …

Tippett: Well, yeah, we'll get there. So what's the second after safety?

Mr. McCullough: Value. We are inclined to forgive individuals who are likely to have benefit for us in the future. So we find it really easy, as I was saying, to forgive our loved ones or forgive our friends or forgive our neighbors or our business partners because there's something in it for us in the future. And the costs sometimes of destroying a relationship that's been damaged are just too high, because establishing a new one is so difficult to do. So relationships that have value in them are ones in which we're naturally prone to forgive.

[Sparx1_1]

Plotting revenge as a nice de-stressing exercise for the imagination can feel wonderful, but actually carrying it out usually causes way more problems than it solves.

That said - forgiveness is not necessary either. Too many people mess themselves up with the idea that choosing not to express anger somehow means they have to forgive and forget.

[Reader]

Hi Hunter!

I don't want to derail, but Dogs, they have a little chip in their brain that is self activating, and the sweetest most loving dogs, some times attack another dog. It's called they prey mechanism. However, I don't think they know it is intentional cruelty. Humans perceive it as such.

Good thread. Makes me check myself.

Hi Yellow. :) Thanks for the post. I thought this part of your post was really interesting in particular: "However, I don't think they know it is intentional cruelty. Humans perceive it as such."

It never would have occurred to me to that perhaps revenge or cruelty was perceived. But, I guess when you see documentaries where a lion hunts a zebra and wins, it is cruel in a manner, though clearly revenge is not involved in that case. Perhaps perception is a part of the equation. I never thought of that.

That makes me also think of that phrase "cruel to be kind." Is there such a thing? Thoughts?

[uniquetobeme]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
~Mahatma Gandhi

I don't believe in Karma. I spent some time thinking about karma. In my mind, if karma were a real thing, bad things wouldn't happen to good people. I see a lot of good people who have tremendous struggles in their lives.
What I do believe is the universe, or God, or whatever force there is out there gives us lessons to learn.

I try not to wish bad things on anyone, but I often hope that life gives the them the lessons they need to learn in life.

I believe the world is a place full of wounded souls, and why would I want to add to that pain?

I can't say that it is easy and that I'm always successful. I can't say I don't have a little pleasure in seeing someone who has wronged me have something happen to them-but not anything terribly bad.

Yet, deep down I have to admit, if someone injured my children, I would hope the police were able to find the person before I do. It wouldn't even seem like revenge, it would seem like instinct to me, like a mama bear...don't mess with her kids, she'll come after you!

[princessbelle]

I haven't seen this thread before. I admit i've not read all the posts here, but wanted to share my thoughts on this.

I've thought about this concept before. There are so many, many ways to wrong someone that has wronged "you". Revenge is easy. I can think of a million ways. I knew a girl once that had 1000 tons of rocks delivered to her ex's yard after she caught him cheating. She of course had his credit card.

I've worked along side some winners who i could have easily got into trouble with their jobs. Or friends or exes, loads of people can try and be jerks, and it is relatively easy to get revenge on people. All you have to do is put your mind to it. But, seeking revenge and waiting for it are two very different ways of living. I USUALLY choose the latter, living with peace in my heart, knowing that i didn't deserve the type of treatment i was given and knowing i took the high road and didn't cause anyone any pain even if they deserved it. But, pain came anyway.

I've learned over the years, if someone is an ass they usually get what's coming to them in the long run. I've seen it soooooooo many times, over and over. I honestly cannot think of one person who has wronged me that hasn't ended up getting "wronged" by at least one other person, or a situation, or gotten fired, or lost friends and became somewhat isolated.

Call it karma or whatever you want. But, i've learned to just wait. Watch. Then, when karma or life or their bad choices happen, smile to myself silently and walk away, and secretly give myself a high five.

Revenge would be easy. Really easy. A piece of cake really. But, waiting, watching....that is what makes me strong and then...very happy at the end result. Every. Single. Time.

[Gemme]

I believe in revenge. There's a time and a reason for all things, even the dark and ugly that we try to sweep under the rug when no one's looking.

[softheart]

I will probably burn in the eternal fires but, I don't care. Sometimes it feels so good. (giggling)

[Dominique]

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind ~ Ghandi

[JustJo]

I don't believe in a God....or eternal punishment....or divine rewards....or karma.....or revenge.

It can be tempting, but I believe the saying that the best revenge is massive success.

[Jett]

I believe revenge hurts the person seeking it much more than anyone it is directed at. Mainly because to plot and need revenge you have to mentally hang onto the negative or toxic situation (and feelings surrounding) to sustain any motivation to carry it out. Similar to the saying I think "Holding a grudge is like stinging yourself to death over and over with the same bee"

As far as cruelty goes I think it's a sickness humans carry all their own burden with, I don't think animals are cruel since cruelty takes motivation and need to specifically BE cruel and derive pleasure from that. I don't think say, a lion's motivation in killing a zebra is to satisfy their need to cause it pain and suffering but to satisfy it and it's Pride's hunger. Hmmm, though there is an animal that does seem to exhibit cruelty, downright brutality at times to members of their own group... interesting it's the animal that's DNA sequencing reveals they share 96% of human genes, the chimpanzee. Hard to say it's cruelty though, as we don't know what they are thinking... like we can with people.

Forgiveness... I do believe in forgiveness in most situations, but right, I may not forget... I forgive because, mostly, this is a f*cked up world... it and it f*cks ppl up, I have made mistakes too...

[Scuba]

Contemplating revenge on someone, although tempting sometimes, only keeps me angry and renting space in my head to someone who really doesn't deserve it. The end...

Scoobs

PS I would rather be renting space to someone I am contemplating "other" things with...it just sounds so much more fun ;)

[BullDog]

Living well is the best revenge.

I've actually flat out said that to a few people in my life. When people try to mess with me it actually does spur me on to do even better for myself. Ultimately my happiness and well being is based on the positive but sometimes the negative does give me an extra push.

When I look later to see where I am and how I feel and then see them in their same patterns of behavior... I smile. Then I go back on living and I'm happy.

[Jett]

Folks, If anyone ever tried to harm you, your babies, or your loved ones in the past, and you think justice was'nt served, just buy a side by side twelve gauge and give them both barrels if they come around again to try to harm you and your loved ones. Especially if they're bigger then you and you have a clean record.

Hey yeah, I didn't say I wouldn't blow some idiots ass right back out my door, I happen to have a double barrel and handgun. I was talking revenge not protection... I'm like a friggen Silverback on crack when me or mines safety is in jeopardy...

[Vlasta]

I fortunately didn't found myself in a tragic situation such as loosing my child or my love one has been murdered or something similar to . So , I can't really say how I would feel in that particular situation .

I was raped by my son's biological father when my son was three weeks old and I had 26 stitches . Well back then and the country I was living at, even if I went to police they would looked me as I was crazy and throw me out from police station .

Yet , revenge it's never ok in my book . I just let go and don't give any negative energy to whatever situation . I let go and not being malicious whatsoever . Sit back and trust me as many said in this thread what goes around comes around .

I see already on some they done wrong to me are getting back in not a good way and I am not talking just about my partners . Matter of fact , one of my partner that done very wrongs to me , lost his sister to a cancer . I couldn't even bring myself to feel any satisfaction . I felt really bad for hym and his family .

I honestly think it's about your personality , but as I said revenge it's never ok in my book . I let it go , life will takes care of it .

[Passionaria]

I've heard that living well, is the best revenge. Like Bulldog, I believe it is.

:kissy:

[kittygrrl]

lots of good thoughts here regarding this potentially explosive issue..and while i am a firm believer in karma, when it comes to revenge, i prefer to center my focus on evaluating and controlling my responses..and viewing it as an opportunity to examine what i need to do to overcome the need to have it, justify it etc..making peace with it and not letting it do further damage is what i've learned i need to do.

[nycfem]

I generally subscribe to the idea that revenge is a waste of time and that it's 1000 x better to just move on to something positive.

Now revenge fantasies are another stories. It is fun and sometimes therapeutic to go back and forth with a trusted friend about what I'd *like* to do :D

[istolurboxers38]

I used to think revenge was one way to hurt a person as they hurt me. I have now realized that revenge is not the way. If someone hurts me it is just better to turn my back and walk away. It seems to hurt you more cause it comes flying back at you even harder. So my feeling on it now is to just walk away that way nothing can come back flying at you and you keep yourself safe.

[Legendryder]

When I was younger, I had anger issues. If I felt I was being wronged, in any way, real or not, I came right back at the person in a not nice way. As I got older, I learned that it didn't really make it better. Did not make me feel better. Many times, I let my mouth write checks my ass could not cash. I got my ass kicked more than once on that type of deal. I had to learn a better way to deal. So, I just started to ignore and walk away. And I will be darned, if it didn't keep me from getting my ass stomped into a mudhole. And something else.........I didn't drop to a childish level. I began to use my mind instead of my fists. Cause, honestly, I am too old to take a butt kickin' anymore.


Now, if ya throw a pea at me at the dinner table, all bets are off. I WILL throw a pea back. lol

[Vlasta]

When I was younger, I had anger issues. If I felt I was being wronged, in any way, real or not, I came right back at the person in a not nice way. As I got older, I learned that it didn't really make it better. Did not make me feel better. Many times, I let my mouth write checks my ass could not cash. I got my ass kicked more than once on that type of deal. I had to learn a better way to deal. So, I just started to ignore and walk away. And I will be darned, if it didn't keep me from getting my ass stomped into a mudhole. And something else.........I didn't drop to a childish level. I began to use my mind instead of my fists. Cause, honestly, I am too old to take a butt kickin' anymore.


Now, if ya throw a pea at me at the dinner table, all bets are off. I WILL throw a pea back. lol

I am not sure what time you are talking about , but since we dated about 5 years ago , you was always nice person and I never see any anger issues or violence from you . I always admire your intelligence and knowledge you have , You teach me a lot and I am grateful .

You will always be special person in my life .

hugs and kisses

Vlasta

[Vlasta]

I am not sure what time you are talking about , but since we dated about 5 years ago , you was always nice person and I never see any anger issues or violence from you . I always admire your intelligence and knowledge you have , You teach me a lot and I am grateful .

You will always be special person in my life .

hugs and kisses

Vlasta

I am sorry , I think I messed up . I was thinking I was in a different thread , I apologize .

[Legendryder]

Yeah, you did not know be back in my 20's and 30's. I was a mouthy, ill tempered shithead. rofl I aged well. Nuff said.

[Ebon]

It's pretty good I watch it every Wednesday.

[SweetJane]

Revenge.....Hmmmm. I've thought about it once or twice in my life, especially when harm came to my own. But Karma does its work. You just have to be patient and let it do what it's supposed to. They will get theirs when the time is right.

[Honey]

Revenge.....Hmmmm. I've thought about it once or twice in my life, especially when harm came to my own. But Karma does its work. You just have to be patient and let it do what it's supposed to. They will get theirs when the time is right.

...and hope that you are there to see it when karma bites'm in the ass

[AtLast]

No, it isn't a far as I'm concerned. Let go and go on and don't allow someone else's negative actions or character flaws impact your life.

[SuddenlyWestFemme]

I will probably burn in the eternal fires but, I don't care. Sometimes it feels so good. (giggling)

There is a scientific reaason for that. :) According to Scientific American: "We have learned that revenge can activate pleasure centers in the brain and lead to that so-called "sweet taste of revenge." See their website article: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=revenge-evolution

Yes, there is a lot of Science around how we feel good when we get revenge (and some of the studies show men get more pleasure from revenge than women - but that's another issue). But it is a pleasure that doesn't really last.

I find this topic interesting. When my ex (not on this site) left under really bad circumstances, I wanted to 'act-out' and get revenge. But being sober, it wasn't an option. I had to keep chanting "Do no harm" as I can't afford the instant pleasure that revenge would have brought no matter how much I wanted it. So now I do yoga and listen to Buddhist meditations and time has worked its magic on healing. I feel much better about myself than I would have - had I gotten revenge.

When I was so sad on the floor crying, I did a lot of research around the science of being left and wanting revenge (and friends sent me articles). I found that being left hits a part of the brain that is hit when burning hot coffee is spilled on you. It actually is physically painful! And wanting relief is just natural human behavior! It was good to know that there was a reason I was feeling so badly and I just had to do the next right thing and hold on for dear life until my brain was back to itself.

It is wonderfully hard to remain kind in the face of being treated horribly. But in the long run, it is worth it. And even losing my best friend in the 9-11 attacks and living 26 blocks from the trade centers did not make me want revenge as I knew it wouldn't help anything in the long run. In fact, I am sad about all that has been done in the name of those attacks. But I guess that is another thread as well.

Interesting topic.

[WickedFemme]

I don't think 'revenge' is a good idea although I fantasize about it often, I would never actually carry it out. I just feel all ooogey when I give something too much negative energy. I find that it makes me feel more negative and somehow deepens my wrinkle lines, which is not a good thing for my vanity or my spiritual being. I prefer to let it go and move on and focus on the positive and things that are in my control rather than attempt to alter someone's life in some skeezy way. It's not worth it and people are just merely 'human' and make mistakes.

however, if I had a child and someone did something harmful to that child - I don't think I could be all spiritual about it. Perhaps this is why I am not a parent and quite thankful that I'm not.

[Quintease]

I agree that thoughts of revenge are often a very effective medicine.

The reality, not so good. Unless you're the type of person who could be relied upon to break a gang out of a high-security jail, revenge is best left in your head. A revenge-gone-wrong episode will only succeed in making you look bad.

I'm happy as I've never taken revenge on anyone who's ever done me wrong, yet life has always caught them up. Bad people don't generally know where to stop, so eventually lose their friends, their jobs and their reputation. I wouldn't want to live a life of my bridges constantly eroding behind me.

As Duffy very wisely says "I pity the fools who bathe in you
'Cause I know someday now they'll see your colors too"

[kannon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Shakespeare wrote, revenge is a dish better served cold. If you have to serve it, serve it cold.

[pinkgeek]

The croaking raven doth bellow for revenge.
Hamlet

[Daktari]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Shakespeare wrote, revenge is a dish better served cold. If you have to serve it, serve it cold.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/41/messages/883.html

ok, so it's wiki
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/revenge_is_a_dish_best_served_cold

[Venus007]

I believe that revenge happens with no input from me. I think that people who do evil will reap what they sew and I will not have to lift a finger to enforce it. It is like that old quote "Gods wheels grind slow but exceedingly fine"

[kannon]

"The first written appearance of the proverb "revenge is a dish best served cold" is often wrongly credited to the novel Les liaisons dangereuses (1782); it does not, in fact, appear there in any form. It is earliest identified appearance in European literature is in the 1841 French novel Mathilde by Marie Joseph Eugène Sue: la vengeance se mange très-bien froide — there italicized as if quoting a proverbial saying — published in English translation in 1846 as revenge is very good eaten cold.[8]

The proverb suggests that revenge is more satisfying as a considered response enacted when unexpected, or long feared, inverting the more traditional revulsion toward 'cold-blooded' violence. In early literature it is used, usually, to persuade another to forestall vengeance until wisdom can reassert itself. This sense is lost in recent presentations."

This expresses my thoughts on revenge.

[Bad_boi]

No. Because revenge leads to more revenge and it escalates until some thing severe happens and people wind up with more than just hurt feelings.

When someone wrongs you it is okay to stand up for yourself or defend yourself if you have do but anything beyond that is unessicary violence or negativity.

[deedarino]

Wanting revenge means you are pissed, and often consumed. The only one who is really hurt by this is you. Unless you follow through. Even then you are included in the hurt. If you want to feel better, just work on feeling better.

"He that studieth revenge keepeth his own wounds green, which otherwise would heal and do well." John Milton


Besides; I have found the best revenge is being a good person and living a good life. Ok, I am not so innocent, it is sweet.

[aishah]

the times in my life i've been hurt the most, it's been by people i cared about - like when my parents died and my family abandoned me and my sister and stole a lot of our stuff, for example. i wanted my family to understand how much they hurt me by abandoning me and not caring whether i lived or died, especially when it hurt so much since i still cared a lot about them. sometimes i'm still angry over that, even though i've worked really hard to rebuild our relationships (at least to the point that they are willing, it's hard when someone won't return letters or phone calls). when my dad was still alive, there were times that i struggled with this too - wanting him to understand how much he hurt me as a child. with a lot of time and therapy i've figured out that that's mostly a fruitless effort. the people who hurt me are not capable of understanding how or why what they did was wrong, and nothing i can do to them will ever come close to making them feel the way they made me feel. it's easier and maybe healthier to just put it behind me as much as i can and reach out to rebuild relationships to the point that i'm able. or to just detach.

oddly enough, things that were very traumatic in other ways for me - like experiencing sexual violence - have never really sparked revenge fantasies or a desire to hurt someone. my pain around more acute trauma like that tends to be focused inward rather than outward.

my partner has an issue with becoming angry and vengeful (one he's actively been dealing with and working on resolving). he's used to fighting a lot and doing it completely below the belt, even in romantic relationships, which is something i pretty much never do. i actually very rarely get angry (other than the situation with my family, and being angry at injustices, i can't think of that many times where i've been angry). i don't really tend to fight that much with friends, family members, or partners, which is something he's commented on. when it comes to a problem i would rather talk about it and figure out what is wrong and fix it than hurt someone over it. so other than a few isolated incidents i haven't had the urge for revenge that much.

i wouldn't say i'm a very utilitarian person generally speaking but that's the attitude i have towards anger and revenge. i'd much rather figure out how to deal with something constructively or try to move past it than get pissed off or vengeful about it.

[Ginger]

Revenge prolongs war. It locks you to the battlefield. If you extract revenge, you are making a kind of sneak attack, and sending the message that you still consider the other person to be a threat. In that way, it validates their ability to hurt you, and if they do in fact mean to harm you, this will please them.

Your attempt at revenge will also confirm for them, that they still occupy an important place in your life. And it will excite them, because you are presenting yourself for a counterattack.

For all these reasons, revenge prevents healing, and the person you are revenging yourself against, sits triumphantly at your table in a place you could have cleared, instead, for someone kind.

[Greco]

Revenge? Not for me. It is said that when one is seeking revenge one is digging two graves

I keep my precious time, space, and power (energy) creating what I want to experience in my life.

In my old neighborhood they say, "what goes around, comes around..."

So karma is enough.

Greco

[Billy]

No ...Consumes to much negative energy .

[*Anya*]

Revenge is ugly. I don't have it in me to be vengeful. It takes too much energy and contaminates all who engage in it.

:rrose:

~When we take revenge against another, we lose some of our innocence.~

PATRICE REDD VECCHIONE, Revenge and Forgiveness

[weatherboi]

Forgiveness is the best "revenge".

[RockOn]

Revenge is not the way to go.

[SugarFemme]

By seeking revenge, you are allowing someone to rent space in your head when they probably should have been evicted a LONG time ago. Your best revenge is to go on with your life and live WELL.

[Mtn]

"We should not seek revenge on those who have committed crimes against us, or reply to their crimes with other crimes. We should reflect that by the law of karma, they are in danger of lowly and miserable lives to come, and that our duty to them, as to every being, is to help them to rise to Nirvana, rather than let them sink to lower levels of rebirth." HH The Dalai Lama

His Holiness is a pretty smart guy.

[~ocean]

revengefull ppl r very ugly on the inside, wish them well...they need healing.

[PaPa]

Revenge, for me, does not reap what I want for my own life. By seeking revenge I am seeking to harm someone else for retribution to what they have done to me. Does that make me a better person? No. It actually lowers me to their standards of acting. So for me revenge is not a tactic I choose to allow in my life today. Sooner or later they will get theirs because karma always come back to smack someone in the face. We reap what we sow.

[Martina]

i rarely hold a grudge. i just let things go, but there are what seem like smaller things that have happened that i have had a hard time letting go. i think when people are unnecessarily cruel, i have a harder time.

If someone is doing the best they can and it affects me, well that sucks, but it's life. i can still even care about them, if from a distance.

But stupid cruelty just haunts me sometimes. i don't get it. ANyway, i would never seek revenge, but if a piano just happened to fall on their head . . . .

[Reader]

This thread came to my mind again lately bc of Trayvon Martin's mother. I have seen her interviewed many times. It always amazes me that she seems to carry no vengeance in her heart, and that she seems to show compassion, or at least tremendous character and restraint, toward GZ.

I'm just so awed by her.