Boy Scouts of America: Is it appropriate to educate a 10 year-old that's soliciting funds for that kind of organization?

[apretty]

I enter the grocery store on my way to work to buy a coffee, a boy stops me and asks if I'll buy some popcorn for his troop. I politely decline--He looks dejected and I feel guilty, but also irritated that I have to even be asked to support such a stupid organization--The mother sits placid a few feet away, totally disengaged and reading a magazine. This has happened twice and both times I wanted to gently explain that I can't put money towards an organization that discriminates.

Twice this week I have been asked to support his organization--Would explaining my reasons for not participating be totally inappropriate? On one hand I feel that I am obligated to be visible and very real ways, like this one--On the other, he's just a kid and doesn't know better.


More on Boyscouts of America:

http://www.dallasvoice.com/boy-scouts-kick-lesbian-den-mother-1087215.html

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-10-19/us/texas.scouts.gay.dad_1_boy-scouts-gay-leader-scout-executive?_s=PM:US

Scouts sue city of San Diego: http://www.keennewsservice.com/2010/05/04/high-court-refuses-boy-scout-case/

[Corkey]

I think the sooner they learn that diversity isn't a dirty word the better. Who else is he liable to hear it from?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm mean decline explain why and leave..

[Holly.88]

I definitely see where you're coming from. I don't buy popcorn from the boy scouts for them same reason. I think its important to remember that the young boys who participating in the boys scout don't join because of the discrimination. They join because they want to be boy scouts. Hell, all I wanted to do when I was in grade school was to be a boy scout! Not to support discrimination, but because I wanted to go camping and shoot bows and arrows with the other boys.

I personally feel that a simple, polite no thank you is the appropriate respone.

[tapu]

Here's how I thought it through: The Boy Scouts as a national organization have discriminatory policies. They are also effectively disconnected from the Boy Scouts at Troop level and even at Circle level.

At those levels, where the boy scouts actually are, inclusiveness is a main and explicit goal--and standard practice. The boys who make up a troop are not self-selecting their friends--kids who would never hang out together at school or elsewhere are grouped together in a troop, and loyalty, kindness, respect, etc, are values and attitudes extended to all Scouts.

It's pretty tough to get thrown out of Boy Scouts. Kids with serious behavior problems and other problems are enthusiastically included and accommodated. Boy Scouts are not mean to one another. Behavior of leaders and other troop members model against it very effectively.

I'm included in my son's Boy Scout Troop parents, as is his other mother. I help chaperone their hikes and camp-outs, and I've been invited to become an Assistant Scout Master. (I swear I can hear you guys smirking. >:-)

The point of all this is: I don't think scout, parent, or troop level is an effective or appropriate way to address the discrimination issues. Voice your complaints to the BSA administrative offices. They'll know what you're talking about.

[Julie]

It's interesting you write about this.

My organization is a World Peace Org. and the scouts are very much active in many of the activities we do. I have had issue with this and I run the kids program of this org. How can I keep the scouts out? I most certainly cannot nor would I ever want to.

I have spoken about this with people in my org., and generally I ask one of the other staff member to correspond with them. It's hard for me for a number of reasons and I have explained this in great detail to my work peers and director.

Sunday, the scouts were at my event andI had the opportunity to speak with some of the *larger* scout leaders. Afterward one of my co-workers came up to me and asked how I did. Of course I rolled my eyes and laughed and she said... "This is what I love about you." "You can be so political and strong about something, yet you will always be respectful and open minded." Doesn't mean I like it!!!

In my world - I deal with many many religions and organizations which might differ from my self political beliefs and structure. I am given the opportunity to be open about who I am and what I believe and therefore, try and allow the same space - within that structure, I am always hopeful I can educate.

I will NOT ever give money or support the Scouts on a financial level - but I would also NEVER tell those kids, they cannot participate in our activities. These kids are impressionable and we are given the opportunity to teach and to hopefully create an environment in educating them - that we are diverse and we must MUST learn to accept and respect one another, with complete full dignity.

I really really really miss Girl Scout Cookies. I walk away when they are being sold. And my taste buds clearly are fighting me every step of the way.

Julie

[Julie]

Here's how I thought it through: The Boy Scouts as a national organization have discriminatory policies. They are also effectively disconnected from the Boy Scouts at Troop level and even at Circle level.

At those levels, where the boy scouts actually are, inclusiveness is a main and explicit goal--and standard practice. The boys who make up a troop are not self-selecting their friends--kids who would never hang out together at school or elsewhere are grouped together in a troop, and loyalty, kindness, respect, etc, are values and attitudes extended to all Scouts.

It's pretty tough to get thrown out of Boy Scouts. Kids with serious behavior problems and other problems are enthusiastically included and accommodated. Boy Scouts are not mean to one another. Behavior of leaders and other troop members model against it very effectively.

I'm included in my son's Boy Scout Troop parents, as is his other mother. I help chaperone their hikes and camp-outs, and I've been invited to become an Assistant Scout Master. (I swear I can hear you guys smirking. >:-)

The point of all this is: I don't think scout, parent, or troop level is an effective or appropriate way to address the discrimination issues. Voice your complaints to the BSA administrative offices. They'll know what you're talking about.

Tapu?

Do they know you are a Lesbian/Gay?

When my kids were younger, they wanted to participate. I was certainly out at this time and was informed of the scouts policy on Gay people and was not welcome to participate as a parent. Of course at the point - I told my kids they could not participate and why. They were young, but they understood even at that young age, what discrimination was and were really okay about not joining. I had to teach them to be tolerant of their friends who were Scouts.

Just because there are bigots out there, does not mean you have to return the favor.

Julie

[J. Mason]

Here's how I thought it through: The Boy Scouts as a national organization have discriminatory policies. They are also effectively disconnected from the Boy Scouts at Troop level and even at Circle level.

At those levels, where the boy scouts actually are, inclusiveness is a main and explicit goal--and standard practice. The boys who make up a troop are not self-selecting their friends--kids who would never hang out together at school or elsewhere are grouped together in a troop, and loyalty, kindness, respect, etc, are values and attitudes extended to all Scouts.

It's pretty tough to get thrown out of Boy Scouts. Kids with serious behavior problems and other problems are enthusiastically included and accommodated. Boy Scouts are not mean to one another. Behavior of leaders and other troop members model against it very effectively.

I'm included in my son's Boy Scout Troop parents, as is his other mother. I help chaperone their hikes and camp-outs, and I've been invited to become an Assistant Scout Master. (I swear I can hear you guys smirking. >:-)

The point of all this is: I don't think scout, parent, or troop level is an effective or appropriate way to address the discrimination issues. Voice your complaints to the BSA administrative offices. They'll know what you're talking about.

I am in agreeance with Tapu, to take it to the BSA admin. offices.

[tapu]

There's really not anyone who doesn't know I'm gay. Even if we're just standing in a supermarket line together.


But yes, the SM, ASM, and all the scouts and parents know Asa's moms are gay. There are also some Eagle Scouts who are gay and out. They are in Asa's troop, too. (Another unusual grouping of these boys is across age: 12-18.)


How many years ago are you talking wrt being rejected by your son's troop? Because I think rejection was more rampant everywhere than it is now. There have been some rapid changes.

[Julie]

I am in agreeance with Tapu, to take it to the BSA admin. offices.

Actually I disagree.

I believe taking it also to the parents is important. Not all parents know or understand the discrimination and the policies of the Scouts (all the Scouts).

Even today, there are parents who do not know - If we are given the opportunity to educate...GENTLY...And not with force or aggression, I believe you will find that many parents will be outraged by what information you give.

THEN - they can certainly voice their concerns on the discrimination (as well) to the BSA and GSA.

@ Tapu -- I would say this was probably the mid 90's.

Julie

[apretty]

Tapu:

If you click on the links in the original post you can read about very recent boy scout assocation-discrimination.

[J. Mason]

Actually I disagree.

I believe taking it also to the parents is important. Not all parents know or understand the discrimination and the policies of the Scouts (all the Scouts).

Even today, there are parents who do not know - If we are given the opportunity to educate...GENTLY...And not with force or aggression, I believe you will find that many parents will be outraged by what information you give.

THEN - they can certainly voice their concerns on the discrimination (as well) to the BSA and GSA.

@ Tapu -- I would say this was probably the mid 90's.

Julie

I just see a problem with trying to tell a parent about the situation you never know what you are going to encounter.

[tapu]

In point of fact, the money Boy Scouts earn from popcorn, wreath, etc., sales does NOT go to the National Org. That money is how the troop pays for camp and other activities. It's also used as a scholarship for Scouts' families who would never be able to afford the parent contribution to camp.

[apretty]

*from the article:

Now there’s this story to prove that the Boy Scouts’ homophobia isn’t gender specific.

After six years playing an active role in her son’s Boy Scout troup in Potomac Falls, Va., Denise Steele has been kicked out after another Scout’s mother discovered Steele is a lesbian.

Steele started out as a den leader for her son’s Cub Scout troop in elementary school when no one else would do it. Over the next six years, according to the Loudon Times, Steele’s son’s troop excelled at everything, winning the Blue and Gold Award — one of Scouting’s highest awards — for five years running. And when her son moved on up to the Boy Scouts, Steele moved with him.

All was fine until June this year when Steele accompanied her son and his troop on a Saturday-through-Monday camping trip. Because Steele had to work on Monday, her partner, Jackie Funk, showed up on Sunday night to pick her up. Assistant Scout Master Skip Inabinett then asked who the woman was that picked Steele up, and when she found out that Steele is a lesbian, and the woman giving her a ride was her partner, everything changed

Inabinett started with a letter to a friend of Steele’s whose son was also in the troop: “If what you said about Denise Steele being an active (homo)sexual is true, do you feel comfortable talking with her about stepping down/resigning as an ASM … as her friend, this may be an opportunity for you to share with her about Christ’s love and the need to believe that as sinners we cannot get to heaven on our own and that we need a savior.”

Inabinett then proceeded to communicate with Steele herself over the next two weeks, focusing his efforts on telling her that her “lifestyle” is a sin and, according to Funk, bullying Steele to the point of tears....

[Julie]

I just see a problem with trying to tell a parent about the situation you never know what you are going to encounter.

Well...
Then those who are not comfortable with sharing information and feel they might be at risk - should not tell.

BUT - I will say this.
The end of the road to discrimination on any level, begins with risk and communication.

Look at the Black Panthers - Martin Luther King - Stonewall - Gay Liberation Army - The Suffragets - The list goes on and on.

We cannot expect people to change, if we are not willing to stand up and speak.

Remember the old ACTUP saying?

Silence = Death

It still holds true.

[tapu]

Tapu:

If you click on the links in the original post you can read about very recent boy scout assocation-discrimination.

And if I go to the Scout meeting tonight, I can experience first-hand the diversity and inclusion in effect.

I separate the troop from the over-arching organization. It's like buying products without driving yourself crazy over whether they're green or use child labor, etc. Except that BSA at the circle level is providing something very very positive for kids.

Sidenote: I don't think explaining your position to a Boy Scout and his mother is going to do anything other than confusing and embarrassing them. Whereas, directing your disagreement to the BSA might.

[tapu]

Silence = Death, Julie? To a Boy Scout and his mother selling candy? Really?


I think that people such as those in the links, who participate and run into trouble, are the very people making headway for others like me. People lecturing scouts and parents, not so much.

[Queerasfck]

Your poll has loop holes.

I responded multiple times to the poll because sometimes I do ignore...sometimes I might say something to the kid or the mom or both. It depends on the age of the kid and my mood. I've seen the BS people at the grocery store for the last week or so and on Sunday the kid came over to me and screamed "STEELERS" as he noticed I was dressed in my Sunday best. He didn't ask me if I wanted to buy anything, he just high fived me, so that was that.

I definitely don't buy things from the boy scouts because of their discrimination policies. But I'm less likely to converse about why with the kid or the mom as to why.

[Julie]

Silence = Death, Julie? To a Boy Scout and his mother selling candy? Really?

No Tapu!

That was part of my explanation to J. Mason regarding "I just see a problem with trying to tell a parent about the situation you never know what you are going to encounter."

If we stand SILENT - then I believe this is where we are headed.

Julie

[tapu]

No Tapu!

That was part of my explanation to J. Mason regarding "I just see a problem with trying to tell a parent about the situation you never know what you are going to encounter."

If we stand SILENT - then I believe this is where we are headed.

Julie


I'm sorry, I don't get the difference. Taking a Silence = Death stance would mean confronting the parent, right?


Ah! You thought I meant that you were advocating SAYING it. No, I meant going at it in that way--confronting the parent.

[Julie]

I'm sorry, I don't get the difference. Taking a Silence + Death stance would mean confronting the parent, right?

First of all.
It is SILENCE = DEATH
If I keep my mouth shut - Then I am supporting discrimination. Ignorance breeds Hate - Hate breeds Death. I believe this.

I believe there is a difference between confronting and discussing.
I have given my reasons to both parents of the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts as to why I will not financially support their organization.

I have never been met with anger or rudeness. Most often, I have been met with surprise and sadness.

It is an awakening for the ignorant.

Julie

[apretty]

Silence = Death, Julie? To a Boy Scout and his mother selling candy? Really?

Silence is agreement, it's support.

I also understand what silence means, which is of course why I feel a bit compelled to open up a dialogue about how their club effects real people.

It really doesn't matter how you remove yourself from the organization--It's still Boy Scouts of America until you make it different it stays the same (discriminatory)--You could be ousted with one phone call to the association.

[apretty]

He's a super cute kid, let's bring him home!

Your poll has loop holes.

I responded multiple times to the poll because sometimes I do ignore...sometimes I might say something to the kid or the mom or both. It depends on the age of the kid and my mood. I've seen the BS people at the grocery store for the last week or so and on Sunday the kid came over to me and screamed "STEELERS" as he noticed I was dressed in my Sunday best. He didn't ask me if I wanted to buy anything, he just high fived me, so that was that.

I definitely don't buy things from the boy scouts because of their discrimination policies. But I'm less likely to converse about why with the kid or the mom as to why.

[tapu]

First of all.
It is SILENCE = DEATH
If I keep my mouth shut - Then I am supporting discrimination. Ignorance breeds Hate - Hate breeds Death. I believe this.

I believe there is a difference between confronting and discussing.
I have given my reasons to both parents of the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts as to why I will not financially support their organization.

I have never been met with anger or rudeness. Most often, I have been met with surprise and sadness.

It is an awakening for the ignorant.

Julie

I'm sorry, I hit the caps key. I have corrected my error.

[tapu]

It really doesn't matter how you remove yourself from the organization--It's still Boy Scouts of America until you make it different it stays the same (discriminatory)--You could be ousted with one phone call to the association.


Oh, boy, would they have their hands full then! I could really make a difference.

[Julie]

Oh, boy, would they have their hands full then! I could really make a difference.

Maybe you can or already are making a difference now.
You are apparently an OUT Scout Parent.
Your troop is obviously not adhering to the rules and guidelines.

Were you aware of their stance on homosexuality?

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/14/us/14explorers.html
http://http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/05/14/us/14explorers2-600a.jpg

[tapu]

Maybe you can or already are making a difference now.
You are apparently an OUT Scout Parent.
Your troop is obviously not adhering to the rules and guidelines.

Were you aware of their stance on homosexuality?

Julie


Yes, we talked to the Scout Master at length, working out the understanding I detailed above re troop level vs. national level. As he pointed out, national level is controlled by LDS. There are lots of things to disagree with there--and lots of differences between that and troop level (e.g., no god assumed at troop level).

To change what you don't agree with, sure, start by talking to the Boy Scout at the supermarket--but then write to BSA Council. Silence = Death.

*****

Meanwhile, I'll work from within. You can bet that those scouts (and their parents) in our troop had a friendly, caring, accepting face to attach to "lesbian" after I was their counselor for a week. And woe to the person who tries to get the tapu out.

[Apocalipstic]

I get how the Boy Scouts are discriminatory, but I thought the Girl Scouts were completely separate?

[Chancie]

I posted last year about being invited to a student's Eagle Scout ceremony.

I was incredibly flattered and moved to be invited, but

I ultimately chose not to attend because of the Boy Scouts' discriminatory policy and practices.

I do know that there are some troops that have distanced themselves from BSA, and that is incredibly brave.

I don't donate to United Way, because they give money to Scouts and I have no way of knowing where the money is going.

To answer the question, I would not sign the petition but

I would not explain why unless the child asked, and then I would explain in child appropriate language.

[princessbelle]

I posted last year about being invited to a student's Eagle Scout ceremony.

I was incredibly flattered and moved to be invited, but

I ultimately chose not to attend because of the Boy Scouts' discriminatory policy and practices.

I do know that there are some troops that have distanced themselves from BSA, and that is incredibly brave.

I don't donate to United Way, because they give money to Scouts and I have no way of knowing where the money is going.

To answer the question, I would not sign the petition but

I would not explain why unless the child asked, and then I would explain in child appropriate language.

OHhhhhhhhhhhh i remember that Chancie. I do. I do. Time flies.

I was a boyscout leader as well. True story. But that was eons ago and i was in a heterosexual relationship and was living the "straight life" with all the straight life privileges. So i didn't even think about it at the time. My ex husband was an eagle and we were very involved in the local group.

Now my kids are all grown. Was so so long ago. It would certainly be a different/difficult situation with my current way of life. My heart is out to you Tapu and all that you are doing for the kids. It is not an easy job. But, rewarding. I'm happy that you are able to be out and not feel threatened.

Rock on!!!

[SecretAgentMa'am]

I get how the Boy Scouts are discriminatory, but I thought the Girl Scouts were completely separate?

They are. I tried googling. The only anti-Girl Scout websites I can find are written by right-wing nutjobs claiming that you should keep your little girls far away from the Girl Scouts because they teach girls witchcraft and encourage them to have abortions or some such nonsense. I'm entirely unaware of any reason to boycott them. I think the Girl Scouts are a fabulous organization.

[Julie]

I was not aware Girl Scouts changed their view on Gay/Lesbians being scout leaders. When my kids were young - It was not "allowed," to have a Gay or Lesbian parent being a scout leader. I know this for a fact, as a good friend of mine wanted to be a scout leader in her child's group and it was against GSA policy - Back in the 90's.

It's good they have progressed.

edited... it's interesting - their GSA (GSUSA) Policy has always had anti-discriminatory basis. I was not aware. However, from what I have read... Much depends on the local chapter and the national level stays out of it - I imagine, it is a case by case situation. I also read in 1999 where a little girl was denied by 7 troops acceptance, as she was HIV positive. 2011 - I hope things have changed.

Perhaps, I can buy my cookies after all.