Poetry and Class

[Nat]

I have been surprised to learn through poetry lecture podcasts how very many published, well-known poets were pretty much what I consider part of the elite. I know this thread is very specific, but I hope to be researching the biographical facts about well-known poets. So I will be back when I have some moments to write and research more.

[dark_crystal]

1. i think that's true of any art, because the gatekeepers (publishers/gallerists, etc.) are elite. You don't need an MFA to write, but you do to edit, so the editors have had their ears trained, and they best hear those who speak to that training

2. that is part of why rap, and later slam, was/is so revolutionary

[SoNotHer]

Poetry has long been an act of revolution, and poets have come from and worked outside of a class for as long.

I don't have an iPhone or iPod, but I would be interested in what podcasts you're listening to, Nat.

I once listened to a heated debate among poets about a popular poet (working class background) with Nazi sympathies. He and his poetry received a real post-mortem dissection and evisceration.

I don't like Nazis, and I'm sorry he was so misguided. But I like his poetry. And as I suggested in that discussion, if we're going to start thinning out the canon because someone was a wife beater, and someone else was an adulterer, and someone else was queer, and someone else was just nasty, and other folks came from a class other than our own, then we're going to get down to a very small number of readable folks and maybe zero.

What I find more amazing is the amount of people who proclaim they write poetry and don't actually read or listen to other people's poetry. In fact, a student recently told me that he not only didn't read/listen to other poetry but that he didn't need to. And here I thought we were all teachers and students, poets and readers, artists and audiences, changing roles in an interconnected universe.

[dark_crystal]

What I find more amazing is the amount of people who proclaim they write poetry and don't actually read or listen to other people's poetry. In fact, a student recently told me that he not only didn't read/listen to other poetry but that he didn't need to. And here I thought we were all teachers and students, poets and readers, artists and audiences, changing roles in an interconnected universe.

this shocks me too. in art school, one of the worst adjectives you could hear at critique was "derivative." How can you avoid this if you have no idea what anyone else is doing?

another thing that shocks me is the perception of "self-expression" as being the purpose of art. Like, the "artist" feels that if they got their feelings out and onto the page/canvas/etc, the piece is successful- without considering whether there is anything for the viewer/reader to take away from their experience of it.

both of these are really good reasons to get schooling in your art, which does elevate you to elite status

[Apocalipstic]

To have the time to write and try to publish poetry (which usually does not make much money) seems to kind of put it in a elite place.

Of course there are exceptions.

Not to have to go to work every day, take care of children and home, scamble to survive...would give way more time to spend writing poetry. :)

[SoNotHer]

Brilliantly said. Yes, I get tired or reincarnations of belly lint analysis. Show me something recklessly brave, different, and reaching and yet conscious of the web within which it weaves, and I'm in. Treat this like a personal therapy session with line breaks, and I'm outta here.

I compare jazz to so many things because it's such a beautiful, clear example. You imitate the greats. You memorize the chord changes, the riffs, the tempos. And you do this and do this. And then you do your thing. When did we ever stop believing we needed a deeper connection bigger than us and greater than us? If you act like you live in a vacuum or a void and that poetry, art and music didn't exist until you came along, why would I read, see or listen to your work?


this shocks me too. in art school, one of the worst adjectives you could hear at critique was "derivative." How can you avoid this if you have no idea what anyone else is doing?

another thing that shocks me is the perception of "self-expression" as being the purpose of art. Like, the "artist" feels that if they got their feelings out and onto the page/canvas/etc, the piece is successful- without considering whether there is anything for the viewer/reader to take away from their experience of it.

both of these are really good reasons to get schooling in your art, which does elevate you to elite status

[Apocalipstic]

Brilliantly said. Yes, I get tired or reincarnations of belly lint analysis. Show me something recklessly brave, different, and reaching and yet conscious of the web within which it weaves, and I'm in. Treat this like a personal therapy session with line breaks, and I'm outta here.

I compare jazz to so many things because it's such a beautiful, clear example. You imitate the greats. You memorize the chord changes, the riffs, the tempos. And you do this and do this. And then you do your thing. When did we ever stop believing we needed a deeper connection bigger than us and greater than us? If you act like you live in a vacuum or a void and that poetry, art and music didn't exist until you came along, why would I read, see or listen to your work?

The arrogance of youth! :)

[dark_crystal]

Treat this like a personal therapy session with line breaks, and I'm outta here.


not that therapy through creative expression isn't wooonderful! but you shouldn't try to get people to pay money for the product

[SoNotHer]

;-)

Hey, I'm ready to start a thread on "bad art." Laughing at it should be deeply therapeutic!


not that therapy through creative expression isn't wooonderful! but you shouldn't try to get people to pay money for the product

[Apocalipstic]

I know this is off subject, but it reminds me of the poetry I wrote in college....so filled with angst....throwing my pain on paper and expecting others to find it beautiful instead of highly disturbing. lol.

I am very interested to see where the thread goes and explore if poetry published more by elite classes becasue of time to write, accessibility and similar background as publishers or if there is another deeper reason.

I wonder how much powerful poetry never is published.

Here in Nashville the homesless and their advocates publish a newspaper they sell for money to survive. The poetry in those papers is every bit as powerful and more relevant than much of what I studied in college. Amazing really. Hopeful.

[SoNotHer]

Poets and artists report from the edge, and often that's a pretty scary place to be. They are our sentinels. They go out into the emotional hinterlands and come back with some vision of what they saw and felt. They're never the same again nor are we.

What is more common than class is the presence of depression, bipolarity, ADD, and addiction. There is often a price to be paid for knowing and feeling too much.

[Apocalipstic]

Poets and artists report from the edge, and often that's a pretty scary place to be. They are our sentinels. They go out into the emotional hinterlands and come back with some vision of what they saw and felt. They're never the same again nor are we.

What is more common that class is the presence of depression, bipolarity, ADD, and addiction. There is often a price to be paid for knowing and feeling too much.

I know I definitely write more whern I am depressed and back when I did lots of drugs. But I never do anything with it....too depressed.

Then when I feel better, there is life to lead. :)

PS, I love your post here. So incredibly on point.

[macele]

define elite. does it mean money, fame, higher education, location? all these things and more?

is there one definition?

[Apocalipstic]

define elite. does it mean money, fame, higher education, location? all these things and more?

is there one definition?

I was picturing Lord Byron. lol.

[macele]

i certainly don't read what i consider to be alot.
but if i had not read what have i read lol, ...
i wouldn't be where i am as a poet.
but i do think we need to leave a bit of room for our own expression.
we don't need to take on too much of anyone elses style.
unique is wonderful.
and listening to someone read poetry, ...
can be amazingly moving.
for someone to say they don't read another persons poems, is sad.

i know when i first started writing, ...
the writing was pretty close to 100% self expression.
i started with wanting someone to share my feelings, ...
i grew from there.
at times, i didn't care if anyone else understood.
in fact, i purposely wrote that way.

i'm dark. that's where i thrive. i rarely write happy.

[SoNotHer]

The grist for many of us is pain, but what you do with that hard clay is what makes a poem. We transcend through poetry, the writing and the reading of it.

A friend of mine likes to say that we enter a different state through three things:

Drugs
Drums
Dance

Either poetry in its trance-like form is the "drums" or in its lyricism it is the "dance." Or it is simply its own portal. Whatever the case, the pain may take us to that edge, but the poetry takes us beyond and through. And that's a beautiful thing.

[dark_crystal]

Poets and artists report from the edge, and often that's a pretty scary place to be. They are our sentinels. They go out into the emotional hinterlands and come back with some vision of what they saw and felt. They're never the same again nor are we.

What is more common than class is the presence of depression, bipolarity, ADD, and addiction. There is often a price to be paid for knowing and feeling too much.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TaDkGoCkL.jpg

this book includes a study of poets and suicide- very high numbers which get even higher when you include single car automobile accidents

[macele]

thinking about those that i know with manic depression/bi polar, ...
are intelligent, giving, tender-hearted, emotional, creative.

[Apocalipstic]

thinking about those that i know with manic depression/bi polar, ...
are intelligent, giving, tender-hearted, emotional, creative.

soooo painfully beautiful
air crackling all around
I am both drawn and triggered

[Artdecogoddess]

Derail warning...

I often picture Lord Byron... as a Butch!

That is all....

ArtdecogoddessI was picturing Lord Byron. lol.

[Artdecogoddess]

More seriously...

I read a lot of almost anything - I am kinda a printed word whore.
But when it comes to poetry I don't.
I do read the 9 word thread rather religiously.

There is all of the above in that thread. Darkness, art, pain, beauty, joy, contempt and anger and so much more.

When I write - my goal is often to get something out of my head - where it is taking up space and warmth and intensity. So even if the poem isn't about the more painful memories of my youth - its in there somewhere in my word choice, phrasing etc etc.

ADG

[Ginger]

I got my MFA from an Ivy League school and that's where I learned about class.

I thought I knew about class, but as a young person whose family had a rural, aspiring-to-middle-class background, and having earned a mediocre public education, I felt very different from my classmates. Example: I was told—and I know it sounds unkind, but it really wasn't—that I had no "leisure skills," meaning, I didn't ski, or play tennis or racquetball. Someone else asked what camp I went to every summer when I was growing up, and I said I didn't go to camp—the shock on her face! It was priceless! And here's my last example, though I could go on: I went to Europe with a lover. I spent my life's savings. She spent her allowance.

Talent is a great equalizer, though—and while a good education enhances it, there is a point where talent is either there or it isn't.

I learned to keep putting my work in places where people who could support me in some way, would see it. Every fellowship, award and publication I received for a very long time, were through the sadly but aptly named "slush pile." In other words, I was completely anonymous to the people at the gate. Eventually, I started meeting people and relating to them as friends, and we bonded around our work, and became a support for each other. It happened very slowly, though, because I let my ridiculous life get in the way.

My advice to poets feeling shut out—and I've been there—is this:

If you want to be heard, start listening. Go to as many readings as you can. Find the poets you admire in your city, and read them—not because you're kissing ass, but because you love the work and it fuels you. Also, go to as many open readings as you can, to practice reading your work in front of strangers, and let your mutual love of poetry connect you with people. As you begin to find your community, you'll find your audience, and maybe even your voice.