Bravehearts: FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition

[Linus]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

[weatherboi]

Here, here!! Cheers to the brave and big hearted!!

[Bit]

:linus: I think this is a wonderful thread! So glad you started it!

There are so many ramifications for not medically transitioning. It might be less complicated legally--not having to change paperwork, etc--but oh my, it seems to be so hard on guys who present male and have female ID!! I've known a couple who had a hell of a time with things like medical care and job interviews. Less complicated doesn't mean easy, at all.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Thanks for the thread Linus. I am a guy who has done everything possible, but go on T. I can't because of neurological health problems I have. No doctor will ever give me that rx. The biggest fear they have is that it will raise my bp and cause more problems for me. Those who have met me know I am slow. And writing I am slow you think one thing, but when you meet me, you finally realize what it really truely means. My reality is very different than most.

It brings tears to my eyes knowing that my life will never be complete. Never. To have the mind, body, soul connection is truely a blessing.

Namaste,
Andrew

[Words]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

[Mister Bent]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male."

It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe.

It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female.

It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches.

It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.

[Linus]

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.


That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?

[Words]

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male."

It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe.

It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female.

It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches.

It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.


I'm sorry for interjecting with my femme voice again in a thread that's aimed at FtMs but I have to say this.

Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other.

Right?

Words

[Bit]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

It does take courage, and huge heart, to live in the middle like that. I'd be really proud of him, too, darlin.

I'm always proud of Butches and Transmen, however they choose to live, whether they're making the best of barriers they simply cannot cross or whether they're blazing trails into new territory. I think life is sometimes so much more difficult than it should be for those whose very existence calls society's shallow gender norms into question, because when you shine the light through the surface and expose the deeper implications of easy gender IDs, most people seem to get really uncomfortable.

I think that's a big part of the pain so many guys have when they need to transition, need to be in all ways men, and are kept from it for whatever reason. Society insists on forcing them (even kicking and screaming!) back into that tiny shoebox labeled "woman, feminine" and I think it does violence to their souls to be erased so completely, rendered so deliberately invisible.

[T D]

Lets face it, life IS hard at times!!

I've ID'd as male for years now. I know that I'm NOT male, but in my heart of hearts there's something that makes me feel that I'm more male than female. So far I have not transitioned because while I'd like some of the male characteristics to be more pronounced in myself, I don't particularly want others. It's a very difficult decision and a fine line between accepting ourselves as we are, and remaking ourselves into what we think we are, want to be, or invision ourself as, etc.

Right now I'm on a huge weight loss kick, and may or may not have top surgery after losing the weight I want to lose. Bascially it all depends on finances honestly. I would most definitely like to be a breastless butch, no doubt about it. Whether or not its feasible is an entirely different story though.

I continue to call myself a butch because visually that's what I am, and even though I feel more male or masculine than not, I'm still a butch at this point. It really feels like a mixed up, jumbled up group of IDs at times, but it's who I am, and well, take me or leave me ;)

Just my 2 cents at the moment :cigar:

[Mister Bent]

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?

I'm sorry for interjecting with my femme voice again in a thread that's aimed at FtMs but I have to say this.

Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other.

Right?

Words

Right. See first sentence.

I unequivocally, and intentionally, stated that I believed Linus was making no attempt to negate the "suffering" (though I take umbrage at that word) of other groups.

Nor was my intent to engage in any further discussion on the matter, merely to state my thoughts as inspired by Linus' words. Thinking inclusively sometimes helps us from becoming myopic.

As an aside, Words, it's my opinion that you and your femme voice, are not "interjecting," but participating.

[violaine]

good afternoon.:linus:

interesting thread, thank you :brightbulb:

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?

[T D]

good afternoon.:linus:

interesting thread, thank you :brightbulb:

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?



Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.

[Jet]

I'm going on T to compliment how I feel on the inside. I respect those who ID male (FTM), but choose not to transition regardless of why.

[Andrew, Jr.]

For the name and gender change...personally anyone can change their name legally in Maryland. The gender change on the legal documentation is not so easily done. According to my attorney there is one case pending in the court system now. And it is because the judge in the case is requiring medical documentation of not only hormones, but of top and bottom surgeries. Leave it to Maryland to be a major pain in the ass.

For me, I want both the name and gender change at once because of the financial costs involved.

Btw, I am who I say I am. I dare anyone to tell me otherwise.

Andrew

[atomiczombie]

Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.



TD, I totally agree with you.

[Linus]

good afternoon.:linus:

interesting thread, thank you :brightbulb:

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?



Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.



TD, I totally agree with you.

Certainly agree but.. I will add one thing: what if everyone else on that island says your or implies not a man? You can believe all you want to who you are but I'd be surprised if it didn't affect you, over a period of time, when you're constantly barraged by opinions other than your own. For some, it's not an issue because they are viewed as their gender to begin with but for others it can be a challenge. Confidence and belief in one's self are huge at pushing this forward.

[weatherboi]

Certainly agree but.. I will add one thing: what if everyone else on that island says your or implies not a man? You can believe all you want to who you are but I'd be surprised if it didn't affect you, over a period of time, when you're constantly barraged by opinions other than your own. For some, it's not an issue because they are viewed as their gender to begin with but for others it can be a challenge. Confidence and belief in one's self are huge at pushing this forward.

It is easy to have confidence/belief system chipped away piece by piece when constantly barraged by fear and ignorance. My experince is when I am constantly maintaining good confidence and can't just let it flow naturally it takes away from the growth of my being. My experince living in a conservative area is one of constant reminder of my gender because people here are so fearful of anything different. I attended a wedding a couple weeks ago. Friends of the bride and groom. They have known me long enough to understand I am who I am. I wore a pants suit vest and tie. The night was great. We danced, we sang, and everybody seemed to have a good time. A week later I find out they think I ruined their wedding. They think I was trying to make a political in your face kinda statement. Two days later I was at the local hardware store picking up some tapcon screws and some guys driving through the parking lot called me a dyke and threw a soda at me. LOL My first thought was to yell ...Hey I'm not a fuckin dyke! I didn't though. I don't really care because it happens all the time. My point is sometimes the people we are dictates how we have the experince. Obvious enough right? I can't speak for other people but I know when i am bogged down in the negativity I can't enjoy life no matter what choice/road/path I decide to take. Strategically placing myself in an environment that will support my desired lifestyle is pretty important.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think it is a huge thing to have the environment of being condusive to transitioning. And that includes online as well.

Andrew

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Right now I cannot transition, but later in the future I will.

Finance is the reason why nothing has been done yet, plus I have alot of searching of myself before I actually do anything.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Hi everyone. Just dropping by. I hope everyone is doing well, and life is being kind to all.

Love,
Andrew

[theoddz]

I want to say something to the guys here who, for whatever reason, cannot or don't want/don't feel the need to physically/medically/legally transition. I want to say this out of admiration and encouragement, as someone who appreciates each and every one of you for exactly who you are.

During my own transition, so many people have said to me, "I admire the hell out of you for the pure courage it took and is taking you to make this physical/medical/legal change in your life". Believe me, there's been a ton of people who have said that......and in a larger sense, they're wrong.

I think it takes a helluva lot more courage to be who you are, in the skin you are currently in......to not make the kind of transition that I have and to live your day to day lives. I know that, for me, it would have taken a buttload more courage to have not transitioned. G-d knows, and I remember well, how that felt. I know that different people deal with this in differing ways, but it's never an easy road for pretty much anyone and it's just about a constant fight with the yahoos and narrow minds that are out there to accept that you don't fit in "the box".

With transition, there's an end point, of sorts....a goal that you reach where society will pretty much accept you in your target gender. When you can't or don't transtion, for whatever reason, it just goes on and on. Dealing with that takes a lot of cajones......more than I have or will ever have.

My hat's off to you guys for having that kind of courage. :beerbros:

~Theo~ :bunchflowers:

[Jet]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

isn't that the truth

[Andrew, Jr.]

Thanks for the admiration. However, it is still heartbreaking to me. I don't have that mind, body, soul connection. And to be denied the gender change is stupid imho. Name changes are a breeze. But the gender change. I just hate the anti-glbt laws. :sigh:

[Logicaly]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am one of those who at this time is some where in the middle. While I see myself as a man, and live as a man, I have not started hormones, or had any surgeries. At some point I would like to have top surgery, but hormones for me is still up in the air, and I never intend to have bottom surgery.

Anyways, having this thread here helps people like me, and anyone else, feel not so alone, thank you.

[Julien]

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

Thank you Linus for starting the thread. I appreciate the time and space to discuss our decisions about our Trans status. I for one identify as TG and do not plan on the full transition physically that is. Although I do want top surgery. I do not want to take T and I skate the fine line of male/female. While I do get mistaken for a man, what I remember the most is the confusion on the person's face. I am not confused about who I am and present myself as male, even though I do get taken as a woman too, it is not the most comfortable for me. My gender expression is male. It is just this in between status that is so difficult. Yet I know that I am who I am suppose to be and am happy in that. I must say this who know what the future might bring to me, but I'm getting prepared for it. I think this status in TG is more genderblending than anything else at least as I see it. We work with what we have and make the best of our circumstances.

[bigbutchmistie]

I love reading this thread. :)

[Jet]

I am not FTM. I am transgendered and a straight man in a "part-womanly" body. When I transition I will be FTM, literally. Until then, TG only. That's my definition I won't bend on it. I do not ID as lesbian, I have never have been one. I cannot be with a woman as a woman or identify with women as a woman. I've danced around this thing all my life and I am taking necessary steps to compliment who I am on the inside. I'm not sure how i will live my life after being on T. I do not require top surgery, and i don't know how i feel about bottom surgery. Oddly, the most accepting people so far are straight and bisexual women. Lesbians have not been accepting of me and neither have gay men.

[Greyson]

For the name and gender change...personally anyone can change their name legally in Maryland. The gender change on the legal documentation is not so easily done. According to my attorney there is one case pending in the court system now. And it is because the judge in the case is requiring medical documentation of not only hormones, but of top and bottom surgeries. Leave it to Maryland to be a major pain in the ass.

For me, I want both the name and gender change at once because of the financial costs involved.

Btw, I am who I say I am. I dare anyone to tell me otherwise.

Andrew

FYI, I was having a conversation recently with a guy from Transgender Law Center in San Francisco. There is currently a judge on the bench in Los County that is also requiring that all FTMs that come to his court show documentation of both bottom and top surgery.

So far, the judge is getting away with this requirement. I am pretty sure there must be some guy down in Southern Cal that will challenge this. Currently in the entire State of California one must have Top surgery and taking T in order to get a court order of gender change.

Finally google the Williams Institute at UCLA. This institute is all about LGBTQ policy and law. Get on their mailing list. They have some pertinent and interesting stuff.

[AtLast]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

:2cents:

[Greyson]

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

:2cents:

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

[Greyson]

( I tried to add this to my above post but the thought came to me after the 30 minute period of time to edit.)

In my thinking one does not have to take T or have surgeries to be Transgender. If you challenge, trangress, break out of the box of what the dominate culture says is how a particular gender is expressed then you come under the umbrella of Transgender. To be Trangender does not necessarily imply you are no longer a woman. To me it implies you are not restricting your expression of your gender to the assigned box. This sort of thinking does stretch or break the belief in the binary.

Sorry if I am not articulating this in a comprehensive and linear manner. I am thinking with my finger tips on the keyboard.

[HowSoonIsNow]

At Last,

Your post was in reference to Word's post who stated that Blue identifies as third-gendered.

You stated: "Third-genered (sic) individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T"


You also stated that third gendered people are "not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although you do say some desire top surgery--but this IS a major surgical procedure that is considered a gendered one)....and are "comfortable with themselves as is."

[Bold Emphasis mine]


-----------------------------
However, Word's post regarding Blue--who identifies as third-gendered--seems to contradict your definition and perception of this term.

Blue is taking T, is desirous of top surgery and refers to hymself in a way other than with female pronouns seems to undercut what YOUR definition of being third gendered is--there does seem steps of transition taken to, as Word's puts it, "masculinize" -- despite Blue not identifying as male.

Isn't the example of Blue a bit at odds with what your definition of third-gendered is?

I have no issue with Blue's identification at all; however, it doesn't appear that Blue even falls under what your interpretation of third-gendered is.


I also don't understand how you get to decide that being third gendered is not also considered transgendered -- for some (not to mention the medical establishment).

Finally, I don't understand you positing that all people who consider themselves transgendered DO take steps to transition. Many don't and some may take some steps but not others.

[Apocalipstic]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

[HowSoonIsNow]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

I agree--what is third-gendered or transgendered for one may be different for another. (in terms of pronouns, steps to transition or not, and male or female identification--or neither).

That is why I was a bit put off by At Last's post who seemed to have the parameters laid out for the definition of both third gendered and transgendered.

[Liam]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

[Greyson]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Yes, I think it is possible for each person to have a different definition for the word "Transgender" or "FTM."

But..... at some point I think it is necessary for us all to at least know what is the general accepted meaning of words. How else are we going to try and communicate some of this stuff?

[Greyson]

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

[Liam]

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

No argument from me, on that one Greyson.

From the Oxford dictionary:

transgender |tranzˈjendər; trans-| (also transgendered)
adjective
identified with a gender other than the biological one : a transgender activist and author.

If we agree to accept that definition, all FTMs are transgender.

However, as I understand it, AtLast is not discussing those that identify with a gender other than the biological one.

[Apocalipstic]

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course :)

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go. :)

[HowSoonIsNow]

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course :)

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go. :)

oops! me too.

[Liam]

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course :)

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go. :)

Apocalipstic, I didn't say only FTMs could post in this thread. I was talking about the topic, not the requirements for posting in the thread.

I thought you brought up a very valid point, about definitions. I have learned to ask what someone means when they use the word transgender, because it does mean different things to different folks.

[Liam]

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.

[Apocalipstic]

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.


So sorry, I wondered about posting in a Trans thread anyway, so just assumed I should not have been.

Either way great thread! :)

[Queerasfck]

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.


I am glad you clarified that Liam. When I first read the post I thought that's what you meant as well. I think it's very important to have these kinds of conversations in threads. If someone has questions and they come in and ask it in a respectful manner it can really be conductive to a better understanding of one another. All should be welcome to participate.

[AtLast]

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

No, don't see a call-out at all. or, mean-spirited in any way.

Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary.

In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways.

Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum.

Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone.

Make sense?

Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it!

Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all.

Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted!

[Greyson]

No, don't see a call-out at all. or, mean-spirited in any way.

Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary.

In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways.

Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum.

Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone.

Make sense?

Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it!

Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all.

Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted!

Thanks for attempting to offer more clarification. All of this is very interesting stuff. I guess perhaps this discussion should go into another thread. ( I do not believe that all posts should be specific to the initial post starting the thread. But not all feel this way.)

I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Thanks for attempting to offer more clarification. All of this is very interesting stuff. I guess perhaps this discussion should go into another thread. ( I do not believe that all posts should be specific to the initial post starting the thread. But not all feel this way.)

I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.

Have to catch-up with the newer posts... about thread intent and this discussion. No, don't want to derail.

The statements about the transphobic lesbians were about me getting very negative stuff from non-queer lesbians (mainly a couple across the street from me) about my being a butch and their mega-jump to I must be trans. Also, they are just plain transphobic (I always get an upset stomach when having trans friends over and they are around). But, I think we all have internalized homo, trans phobic histories. And yes, I have to look at what I am sensitive about here.

[Hack]

I find it interesting to see a thread that is about the courage not to transition, when in my own personal circumstance, I choose not to based on apprehension. My main worry being the impact on my career, which is a very high visibility job in the state where I live. A state, I may add, that is not exactly seen as cutting edge for gender expression/gay rights/queer rights.

Professionally, I use my female name. In the rest of my life, I go by Jake. I've lived in this skin, or sometimes this bubble, my entire life. I'm used to it. I know the landscape of my life better than anyone. I've been inconvenienced because of how I choose to live, but what is more important to me is that I made my choice for me.

And I think everyone in this community -- queer, trans, butch, femme -- is brave. In my opinion, some of the bravest people in this community are the femmes who stand alongside us, and in those lucky cases, who love us. As we are. As we choose to be. As we evolve. As we traverse the landscape of gender fluidity. They are the members of this community who have my utmost respect. And I also respect anyone who lives their life on their terms, according to their own code.

Jake

[theoddz]

I find it interesting to see a thread that is about the courage not to transition, when in my own personal circumstance, I choose not to based on apprehension. My main worry being the impact on my career, which is a very high visibility job in the state where I live. A state, I may add, that is not exactly seen as cutting edge for gender expression/gay rights/queer rights.

Professionally, I use my female name. In the rest of my life, I go by Jake. I've lived in this skin, or sometimes this bubble, my entire life. I'm used to it. I know the landscape of my life better than anyone. I've been inconvenienced because of how I choose to live, but what is more important to me is that I made my choice for me.

And I think everyone in this community -- queer, trans, butch, femme -- is brave. In my opinion, some of the bravest people in this community are the femmes who stand alongside us, and in those lucky cases, who love us. As we are. As we choose to be. As we evolve. As we traverse the landscape of gender fluidity. They are the members of this community who have my utmost respect. And I also respect anyone who lives their life on their terms, according to their own code.

Jake

Jake, I also echo your sentiments here about the Ladies who stand by us being so very worthy of our highest respects and recognition. What many don't know is that these Ladies go through their own "transitions" and "journeys" to become who they are. This is a pretty significant thing, yet it's not widely known or often recognized because the part that always seems to be more "visible" (for lack of a better word) is the journey of the transman. Let me tell you, some/many of these women go through a hell of a transition themselves, towards finding out and then living who THEY are. They don't need us to define who they are.....that is THEIR journey, and every bit a part of who they are.

Thank you, Ladies. :winky::heartbeat::thumbsup::bunchflowers:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Julien]

Jake, I also echo your sentiments here about the Ladies who stand by us being so very worthy of our highest respects and recognition. What many don't know is that these Ladies go through their own "transitions" and "journeys" to become who they are. This is a pretty significant thing, yet it's not widely known or often recognized because the part that always seems to be more "visible" (for lack of a better word) is the journey of the transman. Let me tell you, some/many of these women go through a hell of a transition themselves, towards finding out and then living who THEY are. They don't need us to define who they are.....that is THEIR journey, and every bit a part of who they are.

Thank you, Ladies. :winky::heartbeat::thumbsup::bunchflowers:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Theo,
thank you for recognizing the Ladies in our lives. I often wondered and have asked how do our Ladies identify themselves once we transition. I for one don't want them to lose touch with an important part of themselves. I, myself, am attracted to Queer Femme women. I have read that lesbian, bisexual women are not totally supportive the the transgendered person. I personally hope that is not true across the board. I am fortunate that I have found someone who is comfortable with her identity and accepts me for who I am and ultimately will become. I am in transition and will not do a complete FTM. I guess I am what one might call gender queer. I can pass as a male at times or at least be mistaken for a male. I do not pass all the time. I think that being in constant transition is taxing in some ways. But I'm mindful of how I interact with others and how I present myself. I feel the most comfortable with those who know I'm in transition. I am proud to be a transgendered person.

[DamonK]

Currently transitioning is not an option for me.

I ID as male. I'm constantly explaining, or wincing when I hear "ma'am" in reference to me.

Several of my residents call me Mr. *insert bio name*. It's a hard position to be in.

I have been mildly gay bashed at where I work. I don't agree with it, but with the economy the way it is, I'm not going to leave my job without something else in place.

My other half got a rude awakening when she realized what life with me could be like and how it could be difficult for me.

Even though it would be easier for me, I elect to not transition fully. Currently, there are tenative plans for some top surgery. I'm not entirely sure if it will be traditional top surgery that FTMs receive or just a reduction.

Also, a factor in my decision has to do with cost. My insurance will cover a reduction, for example. However, it will not cover top surgery. If it comes down to that, I have to decide which I can live with.

[Glenn]

It is easy to have confidence/belief system chipped away piece by piece when constantly barraged by fear and ignorance. My experince is when I am constantly maintaining good confidence and can't just let it flow naturally it takes away from the growth of my being. My experince living in a conservative area is one of constant reminder of my gender because people here are so fearful of anything different. I attended a wedding a couple weeks ago. Friends of the bride and groom. They have known me long enough to understand I am who I am. I wore a pants suit vest and tie. The night was great. We danced, we sang, and everybody seemed to have a good time. A week later I find out they think I ruined their wedding. They think I was trying to make a political in your face kinda statement. Two days later I was at the local hardware store picking up some tapcon screws and some guys driving through the parking lot called me a dyke and threw a soda at me. LOL My first thought was to yell ...Hey I'm not a fuckin dyke! I didn't though. I don't really care because it happens all the time. My point is sometimes the people we are dictates how we have the experince. Obvious enough right? I can't speak for other people but I know when i am bogged down in the negativity I can't enjoy life no matter what choice/road/path I decide to take. Strategically placing myself in an environment that will support my desired lifestyle is pretty important.

In the oneness of allness, I am, in some degree or aspect, guilty of, or infected with, or suffering from, everything that I attack." (Charles Fort)

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think it is a real shame that people cannot allow others to be who and what they are.

[Julien]

I think this is a great thread for discussion for those of us who cannot transition for many reasons, but consider themselves TG. I am 49 and I feel like my time is limited for what I can or cannot do for my transition. Financially (and insurance wise) I cannot transition the way I dream of doing. So what is one to do when you are stuck in between? It is a frustrating place to be, not fitting in to how you see yourself. Any thoughts?

[Billy]

I think this is a great thread for discussion for those of us who cannot transition for many reasons, but consider themselves TG. I am 49 and I feel like my time is limited for what I can or cannot do for my transition. Financially (and insurance wise) I cannot transition the way I dream of doing. So what is one to do when you are stuck in between? It is a frustring place to be, not fitting in to how you see yourself. Any thoughts?

I have started My transition , it will be 5 years on 11/9/11.. I pay for My T and My Dr visits to get My levels checked .. I also have no insurance ..I have not done top surgery at this time , one reason is No insurance and another is the time I would have to take off .. I detail cars for a living and I am self employed , so if I don't work and being off 6 to 8 weeks does not work for Me .. I see Myself as a Man , I am seen as a Man , what is under My clothes is nobodys business but Mine and My girlfriends . I will legally change My name to William , but the F on the drivers license will stay the same as on My birth certificate What I have found out is a lot of folks believe it or don't even know there is a F for female and M for Male on your drivers license and most of the time they are looking at your birth date .. I am comfortable with where I am at this point .. I think it really depends on your head space ..

[Corkey]

I'm not taking T the hormone. But am on a booster that is homeopathic. I'm on SSDI and it will never pay for transition.
The T booster gains me energy and some muscle mass that due to my condition is deteriorating. My wife is super supportive.

[atomiczombie]

I was on a low dose T for 7 months, then 5 months on the full dose. I found I couldn't handle some of the changes my body was going through, so I had to stop. My voice dropped some, I have had top surgery and a full hysterectomy, however I am still read as female. I have accepted that this is as far as I will go with my transition. I like my body a lot more now, even though it is imperfect in many ways. I wish I could have gone further with the T, but it's just not in the cards for me. I am at peace with it and the fact that I will always wear my queer card on my sleeve.

[chai~]

*bookmarking to read more thoroughly later*

[Maverick]

This is my first post here. Been reading all of your insights into the intricacies of being transgendered as well as butch, femme and every combination thereof. This thread speaks to me as I am in the process of deciding whether to transition or not. I've been in a lesbian relationship for the past 15 years and my partner is not at all happy with the idea of me transitioning and, while she says she is supportive of me being tg, she has also made it clear that she is not willing to stay with me if I decide to transition. I just turned 50, we have a beautiful life together and I have much to lose if I transition. I struggle every day with what to do. I did go on a low dose of androgel about 6 months ago to see if I felt any better..since I'm menopausal and it actually does help with energy and muscle retension among other things in menopausal women. So far, I think the benefits of taking the T have been helpful. I've lived in this skin for 50 years and, while I would really like to make changes to my body to align it more with who I feel I am inside, I just don't know if I really want to go about redefining who I am at this point and potentially lose a lot of what I've worked for most of my life. I'd appreciate hearing other people's stories on how they came to the decision to transition or not to transition.

[Corkey]

Hey Maverick, welcome to the site. Transition, or not is a question only you can answer. You and your S/O need to talk. If she cannot stay with you as you transition, then you have to decide if you can live as you are, or if you must transition. Perhaps if you both go to therapy you can work through your issues. None of us can tell you what the answer is, we can only support your decisions, what ever they are.
Good luck.

[Nadeest]

Maverick, I do understand, at least a bit, the struggle that you are going thru. I chose to transition, but I also have friends that chose not to transition for reasons similar to yours. Maybe part of the reason that I chose to transition is that I had little left, in my life, to hold me into living in the male role, I don't know for sure.
We each have to find the balance of what works for us, and sometimes, the balance changes later on down the road. Nor is there anything wrong with that.
For me, things came to the point where it was either transition or cease living. I couldn't deal with things any longer, it seemed like. Since I started transition, I'm a lot happier overall, but it doesn't always work out that way. I've been lucky, in a lot of ways.
One thing that might help you sort things out is to talk to a therapist that is experienced in dealing with transgendered people and transitioning. They can help you find the insights that you need to be able to make decisions that are right for you.
There are no absolutely right or wrong answers in this, only the answer that works for you. Sometime those answers change, over time.

[Maverick]

Thanks Nadeest and Corkey for you insights. I agree with both of you about counseling. I was seeing a gender therapist for a while on my own but it wasn't a good fit for me so I will be finding a new one soon. I think my partner would benefit from visiting with them also, though she is extremely reluctant to even talk about the subject with me let alone a stranger. There's a lot of anger there for her. I won't bore you with the details of all that. Let's just say that 15 years creates a lot of water under the bridge. Anyway, I'm in the process of trying to figure out what partial transition would look like for me. I feel predominantly male inside yet I don't feel like either a "man" or a "woman" and can't really see myself transitioning to the point of living as a man. This could all change at some point but that's where I am sitting right now. I'm intrigued by butch/femme relationships as my partner and I somewhat have that now, though it's unspoken and unplanned...meaning, I'm not sure either of us have thought a great deal about how we would categorize ourselves or our relationship. As I've gotten older and care less about societal pressures to conform I have evolved into more of a butch person. At this point I really want to change my first name to a gender neutral first and middle name that I can live with and I'm contemplating some form of chest surgery. These two changes would definitely put me more into a gender neutral place (i.e. confusing to other people lol) in the world and it will be interesting to see how that will feel to me.

[Nadeest]

Honestly, Maverick, I can see where your partner might have a great deal of anger about this matter. She chose to be with you, perceiving you to be one person, and now, you are showing her another part of yourself that she, and possibly even you, may not have been aware of, until now.
Often, in our transition, and enjoying our newfound freedom to express ourselves more fully and honestly, then we have before, we forget about the other people in our lives, and how this affects them. They often have had certain expectations of us, that are now completely destroyed. They may not have been aware of this part of ourselves, as well.
Feelings of betrayal can come into play, as well. 'How dare we have concealed this part of ourselves from them?' That can come into play, whether or not we have known of this part of ourselves consciously, or had concealed it deep within ourself, to the point where we didn't consciously know about it.
Do remember too, that she has a right to process this information at her own pace, and decide how to handle it. We get to do that, why shouldn't the other people in our lives?

[DapperButch]

Thanks Nadeest and Corkey for you insights. I agree with both of you about counseling. I was seeing a gender therapist for a while on my own but it wasn't a good fit for me so I will be finding a new one soon. I think my partner would benefit from visiting with them also, though she is extremely reluctant to even talk about the subject with me let alone a stranger. There's a lot of anger there for her. SNIP

Honestly, Maverick, I can see where your partner might have a great deal of anger about this matter. She chose to be with you, perceiving you to be one person, and now, you are showing her another part of yourself that she, and possibly even you, may not have been aware of, until now.

SNIP

Do remember too, that she has a right to process this information at her own pace, and decide how to handle it. We get to do that, why shouldn't the other people in our lives?

Maverick, I think it is great that you are open to and accepting of the fact that a person transitioning can create loss for their partner and that this is a transition for them, also.

In my practice with trans people, I often request the partner come into a session, even if the person says their partner is "fine with it". Although the partner is not my identified client, this change effects the couple (in good and bad ways), which effects my client. It is also just simply useful for the partner of a trans person who is uncomfortable with the transition to see that the therapist of the trans person is empathetic towards their experience. It makes sense that the struggling partner of a trans person would fear that the trans person's therapist would judge them negatively for not being super positive about the person's transition. It is also helpful for the client to see that it is normal that their partner may be struggling with this change.

Maverick, if you don't have any names of therapists who work with trans people, consider using www.wpath.org to find a therapist.

[DapperButch]

Maverick, if you don't have any names of therapists who work with trans people, consider using www.wpath.org to find a therapist.

Here is another place to find a therapist specilizing in work with FTMs: http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/Therapists.html

Here is another place you can find a trans therapist, but I believe that most of the therapists here specialize working with MTFs (Nadeest, do you happen to know if this is accurate or not?):

http://www.lauras-playground.com/gender_therapists.htm

[Maverick]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input here. You're all right about the counseling and me needing to be patient with my partner. Like I said in a previous post, I was seeing a gender therapist for about 4 months last summer and I stopped seeing her because of exactly the reasons you all mentioned. She made ME feel like she wasn't empathetic to my partner's struggles and I felt like she was pushing me in directions to transition before I was ready to go there. Obviously, it was a bad fit for me. I will be finding a new therapist very soon who is more willing to listen to me and isn't so rigid in their beliefs. I think from everyone's posts that is the place to start at this point. Thanks again.
Mav

[AlexHunter]

Badass thread!

I am one of these people. I have shared pieces of my story through different posts on this site. Basically, I have literally wanted to be male since I was two. My realization of being gay was significantly overshadowed by gender dysphoria. I didn't feel like a gay woman because I felt like a straight man.

I told everyone that I would "get a sex change as soon as possible." I saw a therapist when I was 19 who gave me a letter to start male hormones. I didn't go through with it.

Why? Well, I was raised in a rural environment. There was a strict gender binary. I strongly identified with leading men in movies, felt deeply disconnected from everything feminine, and thought about having a cock during my first sexual fantasy at twelve. I knew I sure as hell wasn't female, so I figured I had to be male.

I moved to DC when I was 19 and met a few gender variant folks who led successful lives. I also realized that top surgery would be costly and bottom surgery would be impossible. I didn't want to be a man without a dick. I didn't want to have to tell all my partners that I was born female. I hated the idea that I might have to wait years before I could be legally recognized for who I was.

I felt this option was not feasible and decided to embrace being transgendered but not transsexual and genderqueer. If I could fuck like a man and express my masculinity in my physical appearance without transitioning, maybe that was enough.

I got involved with various queer communities after that, trying to find my niche. I was eager to meet people who would accept me. When I wanted to transition, I had no interest in immersing myself in queer culture because I wanted to put the idea that I was born female behind me and get on with my life as a man.

I bind. I pack. I work out to build muscle and keep my body fat low - excess body fat increases estrogen production. I buy clothes that fit me properly. I get masculine haircuts. I am a little taller than the average female (between 5'7" and 5'8"), have a deep voice, broad shoulders, and very masculine mannerisms. I am read as male 75% of the time. I do not go out of my way to "pass" - I simply want to be comfortable with myself. Feigning extra masculinity to be more passable to society would be putting on a facade for me.

I call myself a guy/man/dude. Being called "Ma'am" rubs me the wrong way, but I can tolerate it. I feel like I was born into the wrong body, but I've grown to accept it. I have realized I am fine with what I have, even though society says I should transition. I personally see no point if I must be exposed for what I was born with every time I remove my underwear.

I legally changed my first and middle name to Alex Hunter, which is both gender neutral and masculine. People sometimes disregard the "F" on my driver's license because of the name.

[Nadeest]

The link to lauras-playground is probably a good one, and they do have a list of therapists there. How accurate that it is now, I have no idea. However, lauras-playground does/did have lots of ftms in their community, so I wouldn't be too certain that those therapists are mainly for mtfs. Also, here is another useful site, and list of therapists. It also have some VERY useful articles linked to it, on the webpages, and I do think that those articles often come in very useful, indeed, regardless of what gender transperson wrote them. Here is the link: http://http://www.drbecky.com/therapists.html

[Nadeest]

Alex, if it works for you, that is all that counts. To my mind, there ain't no right or wrong way to do things, in this area; what counts is what works best for you.

[DapperButch]

The link to lauras-playground is probably a good one, and they do have a list of therapists there. How accurate that it is now, I have no idea. However, lauras-playground does/did have lots of ftms in their community, so I wouldn't be too certain that those therapists are mainly for mtfs. Also, here is another useful site, and list of therapists. It also have some VERY useful articles linked to it, on the webpages, and I do think that those articles often come in very useful, indeed, regardless of what gender transperson wrote them. Here is the link: http://http://www.drbecky.com/therapists.html

Hey, Nadeest. Thanks for clarifying about Laura's playgroun.

Your link to Dr. Becky's site doesn't work. This one should : http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html

[DapperButch]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input here. You're all right about the counseling and me needing to be patient with my partner. Like I said in a previous post, I was seeing a gender therapist for about 4 months last summer and I stopped seeing her because of exactly the reasons you all mentioned. She made ME feel like she wasn't empathetic to my partner's struggles and I felt like she was pushing me in directions to transition before I was ready to go there. Obviously, it was a bad fit for me. I will be finding a new therapist very soon who is more willing to listen to me and isn't so rigid in their beliefs. I think from everyone's posts that is the place to start at this point. Thanks again.
Mav

Yes, I think it is really important that a therapist stay conscious as to where their client is in moving towards medical transition. Additionally, I think that it is important that therapists at least make comment on the fact that some folks do not medically transition and that this does not make them any less than the gender they already are. Moreover, I think that we should present the idea that the gender binary is not the only way to look at things and that some believe there is more than two genders. I have met a number of folks who felt like they had to transition b/c they knew they were not their birth sex, so they MUST be the opposite sex. They appreciated the idea of thinking outside the box.

Anyway, I am preaching to the choir on this site, but Maverick's post got me thinking about what concerns me about some gender therapists (the gender binary concept). I will say I believe this way of thinking is less common than in the past in the gender therapist community.

[boobookitty]

I didn't want to be a man without a dick. ... I do not go out of my way to "pass" - I simply want to be comfortable with myself. ... Feigning extra masculinity to be more passable to society would be putting on a facade for me.


I have been reading this thread and not quite able to break 'the ice' and jump in. but these words where like a sharp stick to my soul. There are so many things, which a trans person feels, ...that only another trans person can really understand.

I also grew up in the country, and the gender binary in drilled into who I am. Yet, there is a third gender in our culture too, the emasculated male. So in my 'being' if I can't make sperm -- I might as well be female.

(humor) ...and if I have to be a 'girl' I might as well be a hot one! LOL, thus I am B.I.D. = Butch In Drag, (laugh to keep from crying) :vigil: missing parts - not fun!

anyway... :jester:

[Maverick]

I will say that the gender therapist that I went to is listed on all of the websites but I would NOT recommend her. She's definitely still working with old information and has not kept up on all of the various directions people are going in these days. Very much into the gender binary and not at all understanding of why someone might not want to transition if they are truly transgender.

[Nadeest]

I am sorry to hear that, Maverick. If you are still in contact with her, you might consider letting her know that there is a new version of the Standards of Care that was recently released. If she looks that up and reads it, I think that it is likely that she will learn a lot. For starters, it is a much longer document then before, and has a lot of information inside of it. This might be the impetus that will get her to start thinking, and gathering more information, so she can better help her clients.

[Corkey]

I will say that the gender therapist that I went to is listed on all of the websites but I would NOT recommend her. She's definitely still working with old information and has not kept up on all of the various directions people are going in these days. Very much into the gender binary and not at all understanding of why someone might not want to transition if they are truly transgender.

Can you find another in your area?

[DapperButch]

I am sorry to hear that, Maverick. If you are still in contact with her, you might consider letting her know that there is a new version of the Standards of Care that was recently released. If she looks that up and reads it, I think that it is likely that she will learn a lot. For starters, it is a much longer document then before, and has a lot of information inside of it. This might be the impetus that will get her to start thinking, and gathering more information, so she can better help her clients.

Good point. This may be another reason as to why you (Maverick), might want to see if there is a therapist in your area that is a member of WPATH. Those therapists adhere to the SOC and are up to date.

On the other trans sites (forums for trans people) that I am aware of, therapists names are listed for two reasons. Either a member of the site puts their name on the list (which is a good), or the therapist comes onto the site saying they want to list their name. Unfortunately, there is no way to "check" the therapists out as having additional training in trans issues. Anybody can put their name on the list.

However, I would feel confident that the therapists at WPATH have more of an investment in learning and being up to date with training. It costs $200 per year for a therapist/physician to be a member and then an additional $25 to have your name listed. It makes sense to me that people wouldn't put that money out unless they were commited to getting what they need to stay ahead of the curve in the field.

With that said, of course just like any other speciality there are going to be therapists whose style/personality just doesn't fit you. Plus, having a lot of knowledge doesn't mean you are necessarily good at this work. If you have choices, check out more than one therapist. YOU are the consumer.

I hope things work out for you. If there is not a therapist in your area, some gender therapists will do skype, especially for the rural areas.

[DeviantDaddy]

I am so pleased to have come across this thread.

My partner and I have discussed this in length. Although I identify as male, I am pre-op and pre-T. Top surgery is an option for me, however given my medical condition I am unable to have it done as an outpatient which means I will require hospitalization, which quadruples the cost. Therefore it is something I am working on but regrettably require a bit more time.

However, something that has made me stop and reconsider everything is the fact that I was told there was no possibility of me going on T. I researched information on the net and spoke at great lengths with my specialist who handles my health disorder and came up empty handed. Everything pointed to no. But about two weeks ago I reached out to the director of the Center of Excellence for Transgender Health in CA and presented my case. To my surprise, she consulted with her specialists and I was given the answer I had hoped for: it is possible for me to go on HRT.

I am trying not to jump and run with this, given the fact that I do want to research all their studies and discuss it with my own doctor and so on. If there is the slightest risk, I will prefer not to proceed. Which ultimately leaves me, in what I call, the grey zone.

I have a baby face - one that hasn't changed in years. I look very young and more of a boy than a man. Upon completion of my top surgery I will still feel as though I have not fully transitioned. I feel that I will forever be a 'boy' and never truly a man to the outside world. And let's face it, although it is most important that we feel comfortable in our bodies and identification - we do not live in a bubble. I am not blind to the fact that I do have to face the outside world every day, and therefore their view does ultimately effect me. Whether it be my safety or my comfort. I can handle the stares and whispers... but it is different when I'm out with my bonus children and they have to see it.

Being in this grey zone has been incredibly difficult for me. Things such as public restrooms - most of those who identify as butch or trans can relate to that. It isn't easy and I often wish that I could simply just go on T. My therapist has already granted me approval. She did so last year and in March I had made my appointment with the surgeon and endocrinologist. But when everything was brought to a halt, I felt like a huge blow had been dealt to the center of my chest.

Being different is not easy, by any means. Whether you are butch, trans, male identified or female identified. We live in a society that is not open to alternatives due to their conformity in binaries. And yeah we can boast about the comfort we have found within ourselves, which is part of our journey. But society's views can and often do cause some discomfort at some times.

So thank you, for having this thread available.

[Thinker]

I am so pleased to have come across this thread.

My partner and I have discussed this in length. Although I identify as male, I am pre-op and pre-T. Top surgery is an option for me, however given my medical condition I am unable to have it done as an outpatient which means I will require hospitalization, which quadruples the cost. Therefore it is something I am working on but regrettably require a bit more time.

However, something that has made me stop and reconsider everything is the fact that I was told there was no possibility of me going on T. I researched information on the net and spoke at great lengths with my specialist who handles my health disorder and came up empty handed. Everything pointed to no. But about two weeks ago I reached out to the director of the Center of Excellence for Transgender Health in CA and presented my case. To my surprise, she consulted with her specialists and I was given the answer I had hoped for: it is possible for me to go on HRT.

I am trying not to jump and run with this, given the fact that I do want to research all their studies and discuss it with my own doctor and so on. If there is the slightest risk, I will prefer not to proceed. Which ultimately leaves me, in what I call, the grey zone.

I have a baby face - one that hasn't changed in years. I look very young and more of a boy than a man. Upon completion of my top surgery I will still feel as though I have not fully transitioned. I feel that I will forever be a 'boy' and never truly a man to the outside world. And let's face it, although it is most important that we feel comfortable in our bodies and identification - we do not live in a bubble. I am not blind to the fact that I do have to face the outside world every day, and therefore their view does ultimately effect me. Whether it be my safety or my comfort. I can handle the stares and whispers... but it is different when I'm out with my bonus children and they have to see it.

Being in this grey zone has been incredibly difficult for me. Things such as public restrooms - most of those who identify as butch or trans can relate to that. It isn't easy and I often wish that I could simply just go on T. My therapist has already granted me approval. She did so last year and in March I had made my appointment with the surgeon and endocrinologist. But when everything was brought to a halt, I felt like a huge blow had been dealt to the center of my chest.

Being different is not easy, by any means. Whether you are butch, trans, male identified or female identified. We live in a society that is not open to alternatives due to their conformity in binaries. And yeah we can boast about the comfort we have found within ourselves, which is part of our journey. But society's views can and often do cause some discomfort at some times.

So thank you, for having this thread available.

I wish you the very best on your journey.

[SelfMadeMan]

I hear you, and I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you! I think you're doing the right thing by taking your time and being cautious with your health - we only get one life :)
Yes, there are safety concerns when in public, because we know how crazy people can be... but you mentioned that you have a boyish look... and I think you're probably just fine. A lot of places now have family restrooms, and more and more places are putting in gender neutral facilities, so I'd say use one of those options whenever possible. But when you do need to use the public mensroom, keep in mind that guys typically just go in and take care of business and don't generally socialize or even make frequent eye contact with whoever else happens to be in there, so they likely won't even notice you.
I hope you get the answers you want from your doctor... but no matter what, you are no less of a man because of whether or not you use T, and regardless of surgical status.
Thanks for sharing your story!!

[thedivahrrrself]

Thanks so much for this thread. As the GF of a Trans-ID'd, Stone Butch sweetheart, this helps me to understand him more.

He is 49 and medically unable to go on T. He'd like top surgery, but is not satisfied with the bottom surgery options, and feels like without a complete transition, it would be meaningless to him.

One thing I love about him is that he is not offended when people call us "lesbians" (we're queer, but whatever), he doesn't mind that my family and his own will probably call him "her" for the rest of their lives. We switch pronouns depending on who we're speaking to. He doesn't feel like he has to explain his gender to anyone. I am not a straight woman, and I don't ID as bisexual, and he doesn't pressure me to put those labels on myself.

One of the things some of you mentioned were the ladies, thanks for the shout-out. It is not always easy to be a femme, whether you date butches, transmen, or both. I've been called "anti-feminist", "not a real lesbian", and people have no clue what the word Queer really means. At a gay bar, I occasionally get mistaken for a drag queen! But this is nothing compared to his struggle.

Mostly the world sees him as male (until he speaks). He cares very little about what people think of him, so getting called "ma'am" doesn't phase him a bit. What he does struggle with is internal. Some days he doesn't "feel like much of a man". (I can't help but scoff at this - he is SUCH a man! LOL and not always in flattering ways!) At times, he despises his body. I wish there was more I could to to reinforce his internal masculinity and help him be at ease with exactly who he is standing in his own skin...

Until the world realizes that gender is a spectrum, not a dichotomy, there will always be a struggle. I think many are pressured to transition just because they feel male. That is not the answer for everyone, and I'm glad there is a safe space here in the interwebs for those wonderful guys like my beau. :)

Kisses to all you bravehearts!

[Mr Nice Guy]

I decided years ago to not go through the transition. I'm very scared of needles and knew I couldn't do it. I also met a gay man that changed to a female and he showed me photos of his before and after. I was shocked because I realized that he had to kill the man he was to become the woman she is now. That meant that I would kill the butch that I've been all those years to become the man I wanted to be. The only problem with that was I liked and grew to love being butch and love myself for being just that. Now I'm just a butch who likes to _ _ _ _. I find it very hard to meet a lesbian who accepts this or doesn't try to change me. I'm going to stay true to me and just hope to someday meet someone that sees my heart.

[PumaJ]

Not too long ago, my Boifriend, myself & one of my exes (who is quite the dapper Butch) had a discussion about top surgery. I mostly listened as they talked about wanting to get it done. Neither of them want to transition to male. They are each okay having a basically female bodies, but are uncomfortable having breasts. They do see themselves as 3rd gender, neither female or male, but a combination of both that creates a 3rd.

My Boifriend goes by hy, hys, & hym & does consider hymself as transgender/genderqueer. My ex doesn't use any alternate pronouns & sees herself as Butch, but not trans. My ex is in her late 50s & my Boifriend is in hys late 30s. The differences in their self views may be generational, IDK, we didn't talk about that aspect.

In my view as a Femme, they are equally MOC, the difference being the expression of that quality as Butch or Boi.

Over the years it has become so obvious to me that there are more than two genders, & perhaps more than three. That being said, those that I've known who have transitioned were those who truly felt born into the wrong gendered body. Whether born into female or male bodies, there wasn't any of the I'm part both, so am 3rd gendered. It has been, I'm in the wrong body.

I can only imagine how difficult it can be to feel like one is in the wrong body, but not be able to change it for health or perhaps financial reasons. Finding peace within that dissonance must surely be quite a challenge. I deeply appreciate the sharing many of you are doing as you negotiate your path on the journey.

[rande]

It takes a great deal of courage to live, let alone live as one believes in spite of society's interpretation of the person's physical nature.

I am a Stone Butch/FTM who most likely will never be able to transition. Some of it is due to finances, some of it due to health reasons. My bone condition would react badly to T.

If I can figure out how to get top surgery, I will. In a New York minute!

So I guess I'll always be "Third Gendered," although I see myself as male.
In my relationships, I am honest. I tell my potential partner my true nature, and leave it to them to stay or leave (sometimes after slapping my face).
I never "entrap" anyone....preferring the awkward moments take place conversationally rather than waiting until passion's fire has already been lit.

It's scary, not knowing if you're about to be rejected or accepted. But I guess that's so in all aspects of life.
It's just that when it comes to sexuality, there's a great deal more vulnerability than say, just discussing favorite flavors of ice cream.

Do I consider myself courageous? Dunno. Not my call to make.
But I will say that anybody who is living this Third Gender life has had to grow a pair, metaphorically speaking, in order to get through some of it.

It ain't easy being 'tween.
But it's me.:motorbike:

[Julien]

I thought I would bump this thread.

My situation is this, I consider myself GenderQueer in that I have a female body, will answer to female pronouns because policing the pronoun use is frustrating, but I see myself as male. Because of financial reasons I do not believe I can accomplish the transition. For me that would be top surgery and T. Am I content with this in between state? Not really, but at this moment in my life I see no other alternative other than to put myself out there as who I "see" myself to be, get "mistaken" for male by others and yet be female bodied. I am who I am and that is somewhere in between male and female as someone looking at me might think. When in reality my brain sees the male side far more than my eyes see the female body. I'd like to think that this state is a unique position to be in. Maybe wanting something so much and not being able to achieve that is not a good thing. So we have to make the best of our situation and accept the uniqueness in ourselves.

[Phyl]

[COLOR=
I have always lived as a man My mother and father seen as a small child I was different then my sisters so being open minded people they let me just be so I never felt the need to ever truly transition because they just let me to wear mens clothes and be a boy. my father would talk to me like I was a boy telling me and teaching me how to treat a woman right they were always very proud of how I acted and treated women so transition was never necessary...

[Nadeest]

I am so very glad for you, that you had such good parents, Phyl. :)