Bravehearts: FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition

[Linus]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

[weatherboi]

Here, here!! Cheers to the brave and big hearted!!

[Bit]

:linus: I think this is a wonderful thread! So glad you started it!

There are so many ramifications for not medically transitioning. It might be less complicated legally--not having to change paperwork, etc--but oh my, it seems to be so hard on guys who present male and have female ID!! I've known a couple who had a hell of a time with things like medical care and job interviews. Less complicated doesn't mean easy, at all.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Thanks for the thread Linus. I am a guy who has done everything possible, but go on T. I can't because of neurological health problems I have. No doctor will ever give me that rx. The biggest fear they have is that it will raise my bp and cause more problems for me. Those who have met me know I am slow. And writing I am slow you think one thing, but when you meet me, you finally realize what it really truely means. My reality is very different than most.

It brings tears to my eyes knowing that my life will never be complete. Never. To have the mind, body, soul connection is truely a blessing.

Namaste,
Andrew

[Words]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

[Mister Bent]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male."

It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe.

It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female.

It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches.

It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.

[Linus]

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.


That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?

[Words]

Linus, I doubt you initiated this thread to suggest that non-medically transitioned FTMs have a harder road than any other marginalized group. I'm simply responding with the thoughts that popped into my head as a result of your post, hope you don't mind.

It takes a lot of heart and bravery to do/be many things, including, but not exclusively, "to move forward to present as male."

It takes a lot of fortitude to simply be an out homosexual/queer of any stripe.

It takes a lot of spine to be a masculine presenting female - butch - in a world with narrowly defined parameters of what it means to be female.

It takes a lot of energy to be a male identified butch, or non-medically transitioned FTM and have to endure the tossing under the bus (of male privilege) by other butches.

It takes a lot of strength to be femme in a community that is constantly talking about butch, FTM and other masculine identities, which repeatedly places femme in merely a supporting role, and which questions their inclusion in this community when they choose male id'ed or FTM as partners.


I'm sorry for interjecting with my femme voice again in a thread that's aimed at FtMs but I have to say this.

Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other.

Right?

Words

[Bit]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

It does take courage, and huge heart, to live in the middle like that. I'd be really proud of him, too, darlin.

I'm always proud of Butches and Transmen, however they choose to live, whether they're making the best of barriers they simply cannot cross or whether they're blazing trails into new territory. I think life is sometimes so much more difficult than it should be for those whose very existence calls society's shallow gender norms into question, because when you shine the light through the surface and expose the deeper implications of easy gender IDs, most people seem to get really uncomfortable.

I think that's a big part of the pain so many guys have when they need to transition, need to be in all ways men, and are kept from it for whatever reason. Society insists on forcing them (even kicking and screaming!) back into that tiny shoebox labeled "woman, feminine" and I think it does violence to their souls to be erased so completely, rendered so deliberately invisible.

[T D]

Lets face it, life IS hard at times!!

I've ID'd as male for years now. I know that I'm NOT male, but in my heart of hearts there's something that makes me feel that I'm more male than female. So far I have not transitioned because while I'd like some of the male characteristics to be more pronounced in myself, I don't particularly want others. It's a very difficult decision and a fine line between accepting ourselves as we are, and remaking ourselves into what we think we are, want to be, or invision ourself as, etc.

Right now I'm on a huge weight loss kick, and may or may not have top surgery after losing the weight I want to lose. Bascially it all depends on finances honestly. I would most definitely like to be a breastless butch, no doubt about it. Whether or not its feasible is an entirely different story though.

I continue to call myself a butch because visually that's what I am, and even though I feel more male or masculine than not, I'm still a butch at this point. It really feels like a mixed up, jumbled up group of IDs at times, but it's who I am, and well, take me or leave me ;)

Just my 2 cents at the moment :cigar:

[Mister Bent]

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

I appreciate the thoughts and do recognize the challenges that other groups have but perhaps that discussion might serve better in another thread?

I'm sorry for interjecting with my femme voice again in a thread that's aimed at FtMs but I have to say this.

Although I agree with everything you've said here, I also fully understand why Linus has started this thread and see it not as an attempt to negate the suffering of other groups but to lend support to a particular group. A group that's, after all, as deserving of support and a 'safe space' of their own as any other.

Right?

Words

Right. See first sentence.

I unequivocally, and intentionally, stated that I believed Linus was making no attempt to negate the "suffering" (though I take umbrage at that word) of other groups.

Nor was my intent to engage in any further discussion on the matter, merely to state my thoughts as inspired by Linus' words. Thinking inclusively sometimes helps us from becoming myopic.

As an aside, Words, it's my opinion that you and your femme voice, are not "interjecting," but participating.

[violaine]

good afternoon.:linus:

interesting thread, thank you :brightbulb:

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?

[T D]

good afternoon.:linus:

interesting thread, thank you :brightbulb:

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?



Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.

[Jet]

I'm going on T to compliment how I feel on the inside. I respect those who ID male (FTM), but choose not to transition regardless of why.

[Andrew, Jr.]

For the name and gender change...personally anyone can change their name legally in Maryland. The gender change on the legal documentation is not so easily done. According to my attorney there is one case pending in the court system now. And it is because the judge in the case is requiring medical documentation of not only hormones, but of top and bottom surgeries. Leave it to Maryland to be a major pain in the ass.

For me, I want both the name and gender change at once because of the financial costs involved.

Btw, I am who I say I am. I dare anyone to tell me otherwise.

Andrew

[atomiczombie]

Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.



TD, I totally agree with you.

[Linus]

good afternoon.:linus:

interesting thread, thank you :brightbulb:

i was thinking of a scenario. if a person lives on an island, and cannot not find a physician to write a prescription, because the one and only local doctor does not support/understand/respect someone's need/desire to transition- and there exist no support groups for like mindedness, that individual will have limited options unless moving off the island is a possibility. for the sake of this entry, let's say the person is financially unable to move, and cannot afford surgery. is the individual not really who they maintain to be then ?



Just my opinion, but everyone is who they believe they are. That is their truth and their reality. That's my take.



TD, I totally agree with you.

Certainly agree but.. I will add one thing: what if everyone else on that island says your or implies not a man? You can believe all you want to who you are but I'd be surprised if it didn't affect you, over a period of time, when you're constantly barraged by opinions other than your own. For some, it's not an issue because they are viewed as their gender to begin with but for others it can be a challenge. Confidence and belief in one's self are huge at pushing this forward.

[weatherboi]

Certainly agree but.. I will add one thing: what if everyone else on that island says your or implies not a man? You can believe all you want to who you are but I'd be surprised if it didn't affect you, over a period of time, when you're constantly barraged by opinions other than your own. For some, it's not an issue because they are viewed as their gender to begin with but for others it can be a challenge. Confidence and belief in one's self are huge at pushing this forward.

It is easy to have confidence/belief system chipped away piece by piece when constantly barraged by fear and ignorance. My experince is when I am constantly maintaining good confidence and can't just let it flow naturally it takes away from the growth of my being. My experince living in a conservative area is one of constant reminder of my gender because people here are so fearful of anything different. I attended a wedding a couple weeks ago. Friends of the bride and groom. They have known me long enough to understand I am who I am. I wore a pants suit vest and tie. The night was great. We danced, we sang, and everybody seemed to have a good time. A week later I find out they think I ruined their wedding. They think I was trying to make a political in your face kinda statement. Two days later I was at the local hardware store picking up some tapcon screws and some guys driving through the parking lot called me a dyke and threw a soda at me. LOL My first thought was to yell ...Hey I'm not a fuckin dyke! I didn't though. I don't really care because it happens all the time. My point is sometimes the people we are dictates how we have the experince. Obvious enough right? I can't speak for other people but I know when i am bogged down in the negativity I can't enjoy life no matter what choice/road/path I decide to take. Strategically placing myself in an environment that will support my desired lifestyle is pretty important.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think it is a huge thing to have the environment of being condusive to transitioning. And that includes online as well.

Andrew

[NotAnAverageGuy]

Right now I cannot transition, but later in the future I will.

Finance is the reason why nothing has been done yet, plus I have alot of searching of myself before I actually do anything.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Hi everyone. Just dropping by. I hope everyone is doing well, and life is being kind to all.

Love,
Andrew

[theoddz]

I want to say something to the guys here who, for whatever reason, cannot or don't want/don't feel the need to physically/medically/legally transition. I want to say this out of admiration and encouragement, as someone who appreciates each and every one of you for exactly who you are.

During my own transition, so many people have said to me, "I admire the hell out of you for the pure courage it took and is taking you to make this physical/medical/legal change in your life". Believe me, there's been a ton of people who have said that......and in a larger sense, they're wrong.

I think it takes a helluva lot more courage to be who you are, in the skin you are currently in......to not make the kind of transition that I have and to live your day to day lives. I know that, for me, it would have taken a buttload more courage to have not transitioned. G-d knows, and I remember well, how that felt. I know that different people deal with this in differing ways, but it's never an easy road for pretty much anyone and it's just about a constant fight with the yahoos and narrow minds that are out there to accept that you don't fit in "the box".

With transition, there's an end point, of sorts....a goal that you reach where society will pretty much accept you in your target gender. When you can't or don't transtion, for whatever reason, it just goes on and on. Dealing with that takes a lot of cajones......more than I have or will ever have.

My hat's off to you guys for having that kind of courage. :beerbros:

~Theo~ :bunchflowers:

[Jet]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

isn't that the truth

[Andrew, Jr.]

Thanks for the admiration. However, it is still heartbreaking to me. I don't have that mind, body, soul connection. And to be denied the gender change is stupid imho. Name changes are a breeze. But the gender change. I just hate the anti-glbt laws. :sigh:

[Logicaly]

Thank you for starting this thread. I am one of those who at this time is some where in the middle. While I see myself as a man, and live as a man, I have not started hormones, or had any surgeries. At some point I would like to have top surgery, but hormones for me is still up in the air, and I never intend to have bottom surgery.

Anyways, having this thread here helps people like me, and anyone else, feel not so alone, thank you.

[Julien]

That wasn't the intent. It was simply to give those that cannot or choose not to transition a place to feel welcomed, safe and able to discuss their issues, dreams, challenges without infringing on others. All marginalized groups have challenges. No way does this lessen that.

Thank you Linus for starting the thread. I appreciate the time and space to discuss our decisions about our Trans status. I for one identify as TG and do not plan on the full transition physically that is. Although I do want top surgery. I do not want to take T and I skate the fine line of male/female. While I do get mistaken for a man, what I remember the most is the confusion on the person's face. I am not confused about who I am and present myself as male, even though I do get taken as a woman too, it is not the most comfortable for me. My gender expression is male. It is just this in between status that is so difficult. Yet I know that I am who I am suppose to be and am happy in that. I must say this who know what the future might bring to me, but I'm getting prepared for it. I think this status in TG is more genderblending than anything else at least as I see it. We work with what we have and make the best of our circumstances.

[bigbutchmistie]

I love reading this thread. :)

[Jet]

I am not FTM. I am transgendered and a straight man in a "part-womanly" body. When I transition I will be FTM, literally. Until then, TG only. That's my definition I won't bend on it. I do not ID as lesbian, I have never have been one. I cannot be with a woman as a woman or identify with women as a woman. I've danced around this thing all my life and I am taking necessary steps to compliment who I am on the inside. I'm not sure how i will live my life after being on T. I do not require top surgery, and i don't know how i feel about bottom surgery. Oddly, the most accepting people so far are straight and bisexual women. Lesbians have not been accepting of me and neither have gay men.

[Greyson]

For the name and gender change...personally anyone can change their name legally in Maryland. The gender change on the legal documentation is not so easily done. According to my attorney there is one case pending in the court system now. And it is because the judge in the case is requiring medical documentation of not only hormones, but of top and bottom surgeries. Leave it to Maryland to be a major pain in the ass.

For me, I want both the name and gender change at once because of the financial costs involved.

Btw, I am who I say I am. I dare anyone to tell me otherwise.

Andrew

FYI, I was having a conversation recently with a guy from Transgender Law Center in San Francisco. There is currently a judge on the bench in Los County that is also requiring that all FTMs that come to his court show documentation of both bottom and top surgery.

So far, the judge is getting away with this requirement. I am pretty sure there must be some guy down in Southern Cal that will challenge this. Currently in the entire State of California one must have Top surgery and taking T in order to get a court order of gender change.

Finally google the Williams Institute at UCLA. This institute is all about LGBTQ policy and law. Get on their mailing list. They have some pertinent and interesting stuff.

[AtLast]

One of the reasons why Blue is my hero is that Hy has chosen to not transition in spite of the obvious advantages of doing so. Yes, Hy is on T, yes, Hy hopes to eventually have top surgery, in both cases, because Hy wants to 'masculinize'. BUT, Hy has no intention of ever IDing as male because Hy isn't male and is happy to live forever in TG (third gendered) land, even if doing that means constantly having to 'explain' Hymself.

That, to me, takes a lot of courage and I am extremely proud of Hym.

Words

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

:2cents:

[Greyson]

I appreciate this post as it gets to areas that I feel just get side-lined in terms of female masculinity. I also feel that the 3rd Gendered get lumped into transgendered identities. Third-genered individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T, not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although, as Words points out, many desire top surgery). Third- gendered people embrace the female gender identification (may or may not use hy, hym, etc. and are comfortable with themselves as is). Their sexuality may be or not be lesbian. And they are not inter-gendered.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that transgendered theory and studies have advanced acceptance of the full spectrum of gender identities. However, the 3rd-gendered really don't belong within the classification of transgendered and remain proudly female. Yet, are constantly shoved into trans status.

Diversity within diversity can be a lonely and misunderstood place to be.

:2cents:

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

[Greyson]

( I tried to add this to my above post but the thought came to me after the 30 minute period of time to edit.)

In my thinking one does not have to take T or have surgeries to be Transgender. If you challenge, trangress, break out of the box of what the dominate culture says is how a particular gender is expressed then you come under the umbrella of Transgender. To be Trangender does not necessarily imply you are no longer a woman. To me it implies you are not restricting your expression of your gender to the assigned box. This sort of thinking does stretch or break the belief in the binary.

Sorry if I am not articulating this in a comprehensive and linear manner. I am thinking with my finger tips on the keyboard.

[Soon]

At Last,

Your post was in reference to Word's post who stated that Blue identifies as third-gendered.

You stated: "Third-genered (sic) individuals are not transgendered and going to transition out of a specific gender composite that is just fine as it is and not on (or desiring to be) on T"


You also stated that third gendered people are "not interested in any gendered surgical procedures (although you do say some desire top surgery--but this IS a major surgical procedure that is considered a gendered one)....and are "comfortable with themselves as is."

[Bold Emphasis mine]


-----------------------------
However, Word's post regarding Blue--who identifies as third-gendered--seems to contradict your definition and perception of this term.

Blue is taking T, is desirous of top surgery and refers to hymself in a way other than with female pronouns seems to undercut what YOUR definition of being third gendered is--there does seem steps of transition taken to, as Word's puts it, "masculinize" -- despite Blue not identifying as male.

Isn't the example of Blue a bit at odds with what your definition of third-gendered is?

I have no issue with Blue's identification at all; however, it doesn't appear that Blue even falls under what your interpretation of third-gendered is.


I also don't understand how you get to decide that being third gendered is not also considered transgendered -- for some (not to mention the medical establishment).

Finally, I don't understand you positing that all people who consider themselves transgendered DO take steps to transition. Many don't and some may take some steps but not others.

[Apocalipstic]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

[Soon]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

I agree--what is third-gendered or transgendered for one may be different for another. (in terms of pronouns, steps to transition or not, and male or female identification--or neither).

That is why I was a bit put off by At Last's post who seemed to have the parameters laid out for the definition of both third gendered and transgendered.

[Liam]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

[Greyson]

Is it possible that the definitions are different for each person?

Yes, I think it is possible for each person to have a different definition for the word "Transgender" or "FTM."

But..... at some point I think it is necessary for us all to at least know what is the general accepted meaning of words. How else are we going to try and communicate some of this stuff?

[Greyson]

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

[Liam]

FTMs or at least some FTMs are Transgender.

No argument from me, on that one Greyson.

From the Oxford dictionary:

transgender |tranzˈjendər; trans-| (also transgendered)
adjective
identified with a gender other than the biological one : a transgender activist and author.

If we agree to accept that definition, all FTMs are transgender.

However, as I understand it, AtLast is not discussing those that identify with a gender other than the biological one.

[Apocalipstic]

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course :)

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go. :)

[Soon]

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course :)

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go. :)

oops! me too.

[Liam]

Right, so sorry.
I will back out of course :)

It just seemed that different people had definitions for themselves.

Thanks for the reminder....off I go. :)

Apocalipstic, I didn't say only FTMs could post in this thread. I was talking about the topic, not the requirements for posting in the thread.

I thought you brought up a very valid point, about definitions. I have learned to ask what someone means when they use the word transgender, because it does mean different things to different folks.

[Liam]

Quite.

Just a gentle reminder that this is a thread about FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition. I'm not saying that all but FTMs are excluded, but rather that is the focus of this particular thread.

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.

[Apocalipstic]

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.


So sorry, I wondered about posting in a Trans thread anyway, so just assumed I should not have been.

Either way great thread! :)

[Queerasfck]

I tried to be very clear with my original post, that I was talking about the topic and not those posting.

I am sorry that HowSoonIsNow and Apocalipstic misunderstood.


I am glad you clarified that Liam. When I first read the post I thought that's what you meant as well. I think it's very important to have these kinds of conversations in threads. If someone has questions and they come in and ask it in a respectful manner it can really be conductive to a better understanding of one another. All should be welcome to participate.

[AtLast]

AtLast, the part of your post that I underlined, I am confused or perhaps it is just a disagreement. In my understanding I thought to be transgender means you transgress gender lines. I consider myself to be a third gender. I do see myself as Transgender but not Transsexual. Yes, I think I hold ideas very similar to Blue but I am taking the step to legally change my gender. I know I was born into the body of a female and without T or surgery represented as masculine. I too like you do not believe masculinity is strictly the pervue of men.

I think many of us here share similar ideas but we just go down different paths to come to the same or similar beliefs, ideas. I hope you take this post in the spirit of which it is meant to be. Only a difference of opinion. Not a mean spirited calling out.

No, don't see a call-out at all. or, mean-spirited in any way.

Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary.

In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways.

Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum.

Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone.

Make sense?

Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it!

Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all.

Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted!

[Greyson]

No, don't see a call-out at all. or, mean-spirited in any way.

Actually, we are in agreement as to the fluidity of gender as well as differing modifications one might want to (or not) made. And there is the semantics tangle, too. I would use transcend rather than transgress or transition. Transsexual means this to me as well. Transcending (going beyond) the traditional gender binary. For me, within a 3rd gendered context, it is about this for many of us. What I feel happens often is that the 3rd gendered are lumped into some form of transition when that is not what is going on at all. Transgender theory/studies (along withTranssexuality constructs) seems like something that can promote understanding and hopefully, enlightenment. Especially for kids that fall somewhere on the gender spectrum and not within the traditional gender binary.

In thinking about body modification, hormone treatment and gender reassignment of birth records and name changes, I feel like this is as diverse as the individuals embarking on some or all of these journeys. I have listened both professionally and as a friend to these personal stories for 35 years now. I honestly can't say that I could put any kind of these thoughts into any kind of specific grouping. All are different in significant and personal ways.

Something that occurs to me as well is about butches that desire or have top surgery done and it really not being different overall than why women have done cosmetic breast surgery forever - whether its reduction or augmentation. It seems like it is simply about personal body alignment. Sure, for many, it is part of transitioning in some form than other people identifying along the gender spectrum.

Something else that comes up for me related to all of this is the almost non-existant conversations about MtF's. But, I guess this is for another thread! Just feels like we don't embrace the significance in gender theory of feminine transcendance in re-shaping the binary. There are lots of these same gender variables that relates to femmes as well. To me, it touches everyone.

Make sense?

Gender is both complex and fascinating and sometimes I wonder if I will ever have a complete understanding of it!

Also, I have to wonder if some of my sensitivity about the 3rd-gendered being relegated to trans status isn't more deeply related to my own negative dealings with non-queer lesbians that are transphopic and not related to this community at all.

Post Script- glad to see the actual definitions concerning gender posted!

Thanks for attempting to offer more clarification. All of this is very interesting stuff. I guess perhaps this discussion should go into another thread. ( I do not believe that all posts should be specific to the initial post starting the thread. But not all feel this way.)

I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.

[AtLast]

Thanks for attempting to offer more clarification. All of this is very interesting stuff. I guess perhaps this discussion should go into another thread. ( I do not believe that all posts should be specific to the initial post starting the thread. But not all feel this way.)

I think the notion that perhaps some of your thinking could be related to some transphobic stuff is a very brave statement to make. Yet, shows you are open to thinking, exploring, learning, relearning. Thanks.

Have to catch-up with the newer posts... about thread intent and this discussion. No, don't want to derail.

The statements about the transphobic lesbians were about me getting very negative stuff from non-queer lesbians (mainly a couple across the street from me) about my being a butch and their mega-jump to I must be trans. Also, they are just plain transphobic (I always get an upset stomach when having trans friends over and they are around). But, I think we all have internalized homo, trans phobic histories. And yes, I have to look at what I am sensitive about here.

[Hack]

I find it interesting to see a thread that is about the courage not to transition, when in my own personal circumstance, I choose not to based on apprehension. My main worry being the impact on my career, which is a very high visibility job in the state where I live. A state, I may add, that is not exactly seen as cutting edge for gender expression/gay rights/queer rights.

Professionally, I use my female name. In the rest of my life, I go by Jake. I've lived in this skin, or sometimes this bubble, my entire life. I'm used to it. I know the landscape of my life better than anyone. I've been inconvenienced because of how I choose to live, but what is more important to me is that I made my choice for me.

And I think everyone in this community -- queer, trans, butch, femme -- is brave. In my opinion, some of the bravest people in this community are the femmes who stand alongside us, and in those lucky cases, who love us. As we are. As we choose to be. As we evolve. As we traverse the landscape of gender fluidity. They are the members of this community who have my utmost respect. And I also respect anyone who lives their life on their terms, according to their own code.

Jake

[theoddz]

I find it interesting to see a thread that is about the courage not to transition, when in my own personal circumstance, I choose not to based on apprehension. My main worry being the impact on my career, which is a very high visibility job in the state where I live. A state, I may add, that is not exactly seen as cutting edge for gender expression/gay rights/queer rights.

Professionally, I use my female name. In the rest of my life, I go by Jake. I've lived in this skin, or sometimes this bubble, my entire life. I'm used to it. I know the landscape of my life better than anyone. I've been inconvenienced because of how I choose to live, but what is more important to me is that I made my choice for me.

And I think everyone in this community -- queer, trans, butch, femme -- is brave. In my opinion, some of the bravest people in this community are the femmes who stand alongside us, and in those lucky cases, who love us. As we are. As we choose to be. As we evolve. As we traverse the landscape of gender fluidity. They are the members of this community who have my utmost respect. And I also respect anyone who lives their life on their terms, according to their own code.

Jake

Jake, I also echo your sentiments here about the Ladies who stand by us being so very worthy of our highest respects and recognition. What many don't know is that these Ladies go through their own "transitions" and "journeys" to become who they are. This is a pretty significant thing, yet it's not widely known or often recognized because the part that always seems to be more "visible" (for lack of a better word) is the journey of the transman. Let me tell you, some/many of these women go through a hell of a transition themselves, towards finding out and then living who THEY are. They don't need us to define who they are.....that is THEIR journey, and every bit a part of who they are.

Thank you, Ladies. :winky::heartbeat::thumbsup::bunchflowers:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

[Julien]

Jake, I also echo your sentiments here about the Ladies who stand by us being so very worthy of our highest respects and recognition. What many don't know is that these Ladies go through their own "transitions" and "journeys" to become who they are. This is a pretty significant thing, yet it's not widely known or often recognized because the part that always seems to be more "visible" (for lack of a better word) is the journey of the transman. Let me tell you, some/many of these women go through a hell of a transition themselves, towards finding out and then living who THEY are. They don't need us to define who they are.....that is THEIR journey, and every bit a part of who they are.

Thank you, Ladies. :winky::heartbeat::thumbsup::bunchflowers:

~Theo~ :bouquet:

Theo,
thank you for recognizing the Ladies in our lives. I often wondered and have asked how do our Ladies identify themselves once we transition. I for one don't want them to lose touch with an important part of themselves. I, myself, am attracted to Queer Femme women. I have read that lesbian, bisexual women are not totally supportive the the transgendered person. I personally hope that is not true across the board. I am fortunate that I have found someone who is comfortable with her identity and accepts me for who I am and ultimately will become. I am in transition and will not do a complete FTM. I guess I am what one might call gender queer. I can pass as a male at times or at least be mistaken for a male. I do not pass all the time. I think that being in constant transition is taxing in some ways. But I'm mindful of how I interact with others and how I present myself. I feel the most comfortable with those who know I'm in transition. I am proud to be a transgendered person.

[DamonK]

Currently transitioning is not an option for me.

I ID as male. I'm constantly explaining, or wincing when I hear "ma'am" in reference to me.

Several of my residents call me Mr. *insert bio name*. It's a hard position to be in.

I have been mildly gay bashed at where I work. I don't agree with it, but with the economy the way it is, I'm not going to leave my job without something else in place.

My other half got a rude awakening when she realized what life with me could be like and how it could be difficult for me.

Even though it would be easier for me, I elect to not transition fully. Currently, there are tenative plans for some top surgery. I'm not entirely sure if it will be traditional top surgery that FTMs receive or just a reduction.

Also, a factor in my decision has to do with cost. My insurance will cover a reduction, for example. However, it will not cover top surgery. If it comes down to that, I have to decide which I can live with.

[Glenn]

It is easy to have confidence/belief system chipped away piece by piece when constantly barraged by fear and ignorance. My experince is when I am constantly maintaining good confidence and can't just let it flow naturally it takes away from the growth of my being. My experince living in a conservative area is one of constant reminder of my gender because people here are so fearful of anything different. I attended a wedding a couple weeks ago. Friends of the bride and groom. They have known me long enough to understand I am who I am. I wore a pants suit vest and tie. The night was great. We danced, we sang, and everybody seemed to have a good time. A week later I find out they think I ruined their wedding. They think I was trying to make a political in your face kinda statement. Two days later I was at the local hardware store picking up some tapcon screws and some guys driving through the parking lot called me a dyke and threw a soda at me. LOL My first thought was to yell ...Hey I'm not a fuckin dyke! I didn't though. I don't really care because it happens all the time. My point is sometimes the people we are dictates how we have the experince. Obvious enough right? I can't speak for other people but I know when i am bogged down in the negativity I can't enjoy life no matter what choice/road/path I decide to take. Strategically placing myself in an environment that will support my desired lifestyle is pretty important.

In the oneness of allness, I am, in some degree or aspect, guilty of, or infected with, or suffering from, everything that I attack." (Charles Fort)

[Andrew, Jr.]

I think it is a real shame that people cannot allow others to be who and what they are.

[Julien]

I think this is a great thread for discussion for those of us who cannot transition for many reasons, but consider themselves TG. I am 49 and I feel like my time is limited for what I can or cannot do for my transition. Financially (and insurance wise) I cannot transition the way I dream of doing. So what is one to do when you are stuck in between? It is a frustrating place to be, not fitting in to how you see yourself. Any thoughts?

[Billy]

I think this is a great thread for discussion for those of us who cannot transition for many reasons, but consider themselves TG. I am 49 and I feel like my time is limited for what I can or cannot do for my transition. Financially (and insurance wise) I cannot transition the way I dream of doing. So what is one to do when you are stuck in between? It is a frustring place to be, not fitting in to how you see yourself. Any thoughts?

I have started My transition , it will be 5 years on 11/9/11.. I pay for My T and My Dr visits to get My levels checked .. I also have no insurance ..I have not done top surgery at this time , one reason is No insurance and another is the time I would have to take off .. I detail cars for a living and I am self employed , so if I don't work and being off 6 to 8 weeks does not work for Me .. I see Myself as a Man , I am seen as a Man , what is under My clothes is nobodys business but Mine and My girlfriends . I will legally change My name to William , but the F on the drivers license will stay the same as on My birth certificate What I have found out is a lot of folks believe it or don't even know there is a F for female and M for Male on your drivers license and most of the time they are looking at your birth date .. I am comfortable with where I am at this point .. I think it really depends on your head space ..

[Corkey]

I'm not taking T the hormone. But am on a booster that is homeopathic. I'm on SSDI and it will never pay for transition.
The T booster gains me energy and some muscle mass that due to my condition is deteriorating. My wife is super supportive.

[atomiczombie]

I was on a low dose T for 7 months, then 5 months on the full dose. I found I couldn't handle some of the changes my body was going through, so I had to stop. My voice dropped some, I have had top surgery and a full hysterectomy, however I am still read as female. I have accepted that this is as far as I will go with my transition. I like my body a lot more now, even though it is imperfect in many ways. I wish I could have gone further with the T, but it's just not in the cards for me. I am at peace with it and the fact that I will always wear my queer card on my sleeve.

[chai~]

*bookmarking to read more thoroughly later*

[Maverick]

This is my first post here. Been reading all of your insights into the intricacies of being transgendered as well as butch, femme and every combination thereof. This thread speaks to me as I am in the process of deciding whether to transition or not. I've been in a lesbian relationship for the past 15 years and my partner is not at all happy with the idea of me transitioning and, while she says she is supportive of me being tg, she has also made it clear that she is not willing to stay with me if I decide to transition. I just turned 50, we have a beautiful life together and I have much to lose if I transition. I struggle every day with what to do. I did go on a low dose of androgel about 6 months ago to see if I felt any better..since I'm menopausal and it actually does help with energy and muscle retension among other things in menopausal women. So far, I think the benefits of taking the T have been helpful. I've lived in this skin for 50 years and, while I would really like to make changes to my body to align it more with who I feel I am inside, I just don't know if I really want to go about redefining who I am at this point and potentially lose a lot of what I've worked for most of my life. I'd appreciate hearing other people's stories on how they came to the decision to transition or not to transition.

[Corkey]

Hey Maverick, welcome to the site. Transition, or not is a question only you can answer. You and your S/O need to talk. If she cannot stay with you as you transition, then you have to decide if you can live as you are, or if you must transition. Perhaps if you both go to therapy you can work through your issues. None of us can tell you what the answer is, we can only support your decisions, what ever they are.
Good luck.

[Nadeest]

Maverick, I do understand, at least a bit, the struggle that you are going thru. I chose to transition, but I also have friends that chose not to transition for reasons similar to yours. Maybe part of the reason that I chose to transition is that I had little left, in my life, to hold me into living in the male role, I don't know for sure.
We each have to find the balance of what works for us, and sometimes, the balance changes later on down the road. Nor is there anything wrong with that.
For me, things came to the point where it was either transition or cease living. I couldn't deal with things any longer, it seemed like. Since I started transition, I'm a lot happier overall, but it doesn't always work out that way. I've been lucky, in a lot of ways.
One thing that might help you sort things out is to talk to a therapist that is experienced in dealing with transgendered people and transitioning. They can help you find the insights that you need to be able to make decisions that are right for you.
There are no absolutely right or wrong answers in this, only the answer that works for you. Sometime those answers change, over time.

[Maverick]

Thanks Nadeest and Corkey for you insights. I agree with both of you about counseling. I was seeing a gender therapist for a while on my own but it wasn't a good fit for me so I will be finding a new one soon. I think my partner would benefit from visiting with them also, though she is extremely reluctant to even talk about the subject with me let alone a stranger. There's a lot of anger there for her. I won't bore you with the details of all that. Let's just say that 15 years creates a lot of water under the bridge. Anyway, I'm in the process of trying to figure out what partial transition would look like for me. I feel predominantly male inside yet I don't feel like either a "man" or a "woman" and can't really see myself transitioning to the point of living as a man. This could all change at some point but that's where I am sitting right now. I'm intrigued by butch/femme relationships as my partner and I somewhat have that now, though it's unspoken and unplanned...meaning, I'm not sure either of us have thought a great deal about how we would categorize ourselves or our relationship. As I've gotten older and care less about societal pressures to conform I have evolved into more of a butch person. At this point I really want to change my first name to a gender neutral first and middle name that I can live with and I'm contemplating some form of chest surgery. These two changes would definitely put me more into a gender neutral place (i.e. confusing to other people lol) in the world and it will be interesting to see how that will feel to me.

[Nadeest]

Honestly, Maverick, I can see where your partner might have a great deal of anger about this matter. She chose to be with you, perceiving you to be one person, and now, you are showing her another part of yourself that she, and possibly even you, may not have been aware of, until now.
Often, in our transition, and enjoying our newfound freedom to express ourselves more fully and honestly, then we have before, we forget about the other people in our lives, and how this affects them. They often have had certain expectations of us, that are now completely destroyed. They may not have been aware of this part of ourselves, as well.
Feelings of betrayal can come into play, as well. 'How dare we have concealed this part of ourselves from them?' That can come into play, whether or not we have known of this part of ourselves consciously, or had concealed it deep within ourself, to the point where we didn't consciously know about it.
Do remember too, that she has a right to process this information at her own pace, and decide how to handle it. We get to do that, why shouldn't the other people in our lives?

[DapperButch]

Thanks Nadeest and Corkey for you insights. I agree with both of you about counseling. I was seeing a gender therapist for a while on my own but it wasn't a good fit for me so I will be finding a new one soon. I think my partner would benefit from visiting with them also, though she is extremely reluctant to even talk about the subject with me let alone a stranger. There's a lot of anger there for her. SNIP

Honestly, Maverick, I can see where your partner might have a great deal of anger about this matter. She chose to be with you, perceiving you to be one person, and now, you are showing her another part of yourself that she, and possibly even you, may not have been aware of, until now.

SNIP

Do remember too, that she has a right to process this information at her own pace, and decide how to handle it. We get to do that, why shouldn't the other people in our lives?

Maverick, I think it is great that you are open to and accepting of the fact that a person transitioning can create loss for their partner and that this is a transition for them, also.

In my practice with trans people, I often request the partner come into a session, even if the person says their partner is "fine with it". Although the partner is not my identified client, this change effects the couple (in good and bad ways), which effects my client. It is also just simply useful for the partner of a trans person who is uncomfortable with the transition to see that the therapist of the trans person is empathetic towards their experience. It makes sense that the struggling partner of a trans person would fear that the trans person's therapist would judge them negatively for not being super positive about the person's transition. It is also helpful for the client to see that it is normal that their partner may be struggling with this change.

Maverick, if you don't have any names of therapists who work with trans people, consider using www.wpath.org to find a therapist.

[DapperButch]

Maverick, if you don't have any names of therapists who work with trans people, consider using www.wpath.org to find a therapist.

Here is another place to find a therapist specilizing in work with FTMs: http://www.thetransitionalmale.com/Therapists.html

Here is another place you can find a trans therapist, but I believe that most of the therapists here specialize working with MTFs (Nadeest, do you happen to know if this is accurate or not?):

http://www.lauras-playground.com/gender_therapists.htm

[Maverick]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input here. You're all right about the counseling and me needing to be patient with my partner. Like I said in a previous post, I was seeing a gender therapist for about 4 months last summer and I stopped seeing her because of exactly the reasons you all mentioned. She made ME feel like she wasn't empathetic to my partner's struggles and I felt like she was pushing me in directions to transition before I was ready to go there. Obviously, it was a bad fit for me. I will be finding a new therapist very soon who is more willing to listen to me and isn't so rigid in their beliefs. I think from everyone's posts that is the place to start at this point. Thanks again.
Mav

[AlexHunter]

Badass thread!

I am one of these people. I have shared pieces of my story through different posts on this site. Basically, I have literally wanted to be male since I was two. My realization of being gay was significantly overshadowed by gender dysphoria. I didn't feel like a gay woman because I felt like a straight man.

I told everyone that I would "get a sex change as soon as possible." I saw a therapist when I was 19 who gave me a letter to start male hormones. I didn't go through with it.

Why? Well, I was raised in a rural environment. There was a strict gender binary. I strongly identified with leading men in movies, felt deeply disconnected from everything feminine, and thought about having a cock during my first sexual fantasy at twelve. I knew I sure as hell wasn't female, so I figured I had to be male.

I moved to DC when I was 19 and met a few gender variant folks who led successful lives. I also realized that top surgery would be costly and bottom surgery would be impossible. I didn't want to be a man without a dick. I didn't want to have to tell all my partners that I was born female. I hated the idea that I might have to wait years before I could be legally recognized for who I was.

I felt this option was not feasible and decided to embrace being transgendered but not transsexual and genderqueer. If I could fuck like a man and express my masculinity in my physical appearance without transitioning, maybe that was enough.

I got involved with various queer communities after that, trying to find my niche. I was eager to meet people who would accept me. When I wanted to transition, I had no interest in immersing myself in queer culture because I wanted to put the idea that I was born female behind me and get on with my life as a man.

I bind. I pack. I work out to build muscle and keep my body fat low - excess body fat increases estrogen production. I buy clothes that fit me properly. I get masculine haircuts. I am a little taller than the average female (between 5'7" and 5'8"), have a deep voice, broad shoulders, and very masculine mannerisms. I am read as male 75% of the time. I do not go out of my way to "pass" - I simply want to be comfortable with myself. Feigning extra masculinity to be more passable to society would be putting on a facade for me.

I call myself a guy/man/dude. Being called "Ma'am" rubs me the wrong way, but I can tolerate it. I feel like I was born into the wrong body, but I've grown to accept it. I have realized I am fine with what I have, even though society says I should transition. I personally see no point if I must be exposed for what I was born with every time I remove my underwear.

I legally changed my first and middle name to Alex Hunter, which is both gender neutral and masculine. People sometimes disregard the "F" on my driver's license because of the name.

[Nadeest]

The link to lauras-playground is probably a good one, and they do have a list of therapists there. How accurate that it is now, I have no idea. However, lauras-playground does/did have lots of ftms in their community, so I wouldn't be too certain that those therapists are mainly for mtfs. Also, here is another useful site, and list of therapists. It also have some VERY useful articles linked to it, on the webpages, and I do think that those articles often come in very useful, indeed, regardless of what gender transperson wrote them. Here is the link: http://http://www.drbecky.com/therapists.html

[Nadeest]

Alex, if it works for you, that is all that counts. To my mind, there ain't no right or wrong way to do things, in this area; what counts is what works best for you.

[DapperButch]

The link to lauras-playground is probably a good one, and they do have a list of therapists there. How accurate that it is now, I have no idea. However, lauras-playground does/did have lots of ftms in their community, so I wouldn't be too certain that those therapists are mainly for mtfs. Also, here is another useful site, and list of therapists. It also have some VERY useful articles linked to it, on the webpages, and I do think that those articles often come in very useful, indeed, regardless of what gender transperson wrote them. Here is the link: http://http://www.drbecky.com/therapists.html

Hey, Nadeest. Thanks for clarifying about Laura's playgroun.

Your link to Dr. Becky's site doesn't work. This one should : http://www.drbecky.com/birthcert.html

[DapperButch]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your input here. You're all right about the counseling and me needing to be patient with my partner. Like I said in a previous post, I was seeing a gender therapist for about 4 months last summer and I stopped seeing her because of exactly the reasons you all mentioned. She made ME feel like she wasn't empathetic to my partner's struggles and I felt like she was pushing me in directions to transition before I was ready to go there. Obviously, it was a bad fit for me. I will be finding a new therapist very soon who is more willing to listen to me and isn't so rigid in their beliefs. I think from everyone's posts that is the place to start at this point. Thanks again.
Mav

Yes, I think it is really important that a therapist stay conscious as to where their client is in moving towards medical transition. Additionally, I think that it is important that therapists at least make comment on the fact that some folks do not medically transition and that this does not make them any less than the gender they already are. Moreover, I think that we should present the idea that the gender binary is not the only way to look at things and that some believe there is more than two genders. I have met a number of folks who felt like they had to transition b/c they knew they were not their birth sex, so they MUST be the opposite sex. They appreciated the idea of thinking outside the box.

Anyway, I am preaching to the choir on this site, but Maverick's post got me thinking about what concerns me about some gender therapists (the gender binary concept). I will say I believe this way of thinking is less common than in the past in the gender therapist community.

[boobookitty]

I didn't want to be a man without a dick. ... I do not go out of my way to "pass" - I simply want to be comfortable with myself. ... Feigning extra masculinity to be more passable to society would be putting on a facade for me.


I have been reading this thread and not quite able to break 'the ice' and jump in. but these words where like a sharp stick to my soul. There are so many things, which a trans person feels, ...that only another trans person can really understand.

I also grew up in the country, and the gender binary in drilled into who I am. Yet, there is a third gender in our culture too, the emasculated male. So in my 'being' if I can't make sperm -- I might as well be female.

(humor) ...and if I have to be a 'girl' I might as well be a hot one! LOL, thus I am B.I.D. = Butch In Drag, (laugh to keep from crying) :vigil: missing parts - not fun!

anyway... :jester:

[Maverick]

I will say that the gender therapist that I went to is listed on all of the websites but I would NOT recommend her. She's definitely still working with old information and has not kept up on all of the various directions people are going in these days. Very much into the gender binary and not at all understanding of why someone might not want to transition if they are truly transgender.

[Nadeest]

I am sorry to hear that, Maverick. If you are still in contact with her, you might consider letting her know that there is a new version of the Standards of Care that was recently released. If she looks that up and reads it, I think that it is likely that she will learn a lot. For starters, it is a much longer document then before, and has a lot of information inside of it. This might be the impetus that will get her to start thinking, and gathering more information, so she can better help her clients.

[Corkey]

I will say that the gender therapist that I went to is listed on all of the websites but I would NOT recommend her. She's definitely still working with old information and has not kept up on all of the various directions people are going in these days. Very much into the gender binary and not at all understanding of why someone might not want to transition if they are truly transgender.

Can you find another in your area?

[DapperButch]

I am sorry to hear that, Maverick. If you are still in contact with her, you might consider letting her know that there is a new version of the Standards of Care that was recently released. If she looks that up and reads it, I think that it is likely that she will learn a lot. For starters, it is a much longer document then before, and has a lot of information inside of it. This might be the impetus that will get her to start thinking, and gathering more information, so she can better help her clients.

Good point. This may be another reason as to why you (Maverick), might want to see if there is a therapist in your area that is a member of WPATH. Those therapists adhere to the SOC and are up to date.

On the other trans sites (forums for trans people) that I am aware of, therapists names are listed for two reasons. Either a member of the site puts their name on the list (which is a good), or the therapist comes onto the site saying they want to list their name. Unfortunately, there is no way to "check" the therapists out as having additional training in trans issues. Anybody can put their name on the list.

However, I would feel confident that the therapists at WPATH have more of an investment in learning and being up to date with training. It costs $200 per year for a therapist/physician to be a member and then an additional $25 to have your name listed. It makes sense to me that people wouldn't put that money out unless they were commited to getting what they need to stay ahead of the curve in the field.

With that said, of course just like any other speciality there are going to be therapists whose style/personality just doesn't fit you. Plus, having a lot of knowledge doesn't mean you are necessarily good at this work. If you have choices, check out more than one therapist. YOU are the consumer.

I hope things work out for you. If there is not a therapist in your area, some gender therapists will do skype, especially for the rural areas.

[DeviantDaddy]

I am so pleased to have come across this thread.

My partner and I have discussed this in length. Although I identify as male, I am pre-op and pre-T. Top surgery is an option for me, however given my medical condition I am unable to have it done as an outpatient which means I will require hospitalization, which quadruples the cost. Therefore it is something I am working on but regrettably require a bit more time.

However, something that has made me stop and reconsider everything is the fact that I was told there was no possibility of me going on T. I researched information on the net and spoke at great lengths with my specialist who handles my health disorder and came up empty handed. Everything pointed to no. But about two weeks ago I reached out to the director of the Center of Excellence for Transgender Health in CA and presented my case. To my surprise, she consulted with her specialists and I was given the answer I had hoped for: it is possible for me to go on HRT.

I am trying not to jump and run with this, given the fact that I do want to research all their studies and discuss it with my own doctor and so on. If there is the slightest risk, I will prefer not to proceed. Which ultimately leaves me, in what I call, the grey zone.

I have a baby face - one that hasn't changed in years. I look very young and more of a boy than a man. Upon completion of my top surgery I will still feel as though I have not fully transitioned. I feel that I will forever be a 'boy' and never truly a man to the outside world. And let's face it, although it is most important that we feel comfortable in our bodies and identification - we do not live in a bubble. I am not blind to the fact that I do have to face the outside world every day, and therefore their view does ultimately effect me. Whether it be my safety or my comfort. I can handle the stares and whispers... but it is different when I'm out with my bonus children and they have to see it.

Being in this grey zone has been incredibly difficult for me. Things such as public restrooms - most of those who identify as butch or trans can relate to that. It isn't easy and I often wish that I could simply just go on T. My therapist has already granted me approval. She did so last year and in March I had made my appointment with the surgeon and endocrinologist. But when everything was brought to a halt, I felt like a huge blow had been dealt to the center of my chest.

Being different is not easy, by any means. Whether you are butch, trans, male identified or female identified. We live in a society that is not open to alternatives due to their conformity in binaries. And yeah we can boast about the comfort we have found within ourselves, which is part of our journey. But society's views can and often do cause some discomfort at some times.

So thank you, for having this thread available.

[Thinker]

I am so pleased to have come across this thread.

My partner and I have discussed this in length. Although I identify as male, I am pre-op and pre-T. Top surgery is an option for me, however given my medical condition I am unable to have it done as an outpatient which means I will require hospitalization, which quadruples the cost. Therefore it is something I am working on but regrettably require a bit more time.

However, something that has made me stop and reconsider everything is the fact that I was told there was no possibility of me going on T. I researched information on the net and spoke at great lengths with my specialist who handles my health disorder and came up empty handed. Everything pointed to no. But about two weeks ago I reached out to the director of the Center of Excellence for Transgender Health in CA and presented my case. To my surprise, she consulted with her specialists and I was given the answer I had hoped for: it is possible for me to go on HRT.

I am trying not to jump and run with this, given the fact that I do want to research all their studies and discuss it with my own doctor and so on. If there is the slightest risk, I will prefer not to proceed. Which ultimately leaves me, in what I call, the grey zone.

I have a baby face - one that hasn't changed in years. I look very young and more of a boy than a man. Upon completion of my top surgery I will still feel as though I have not fully transitioned. I feel that I will forever be a 'boy' and never truly a man to the outside world. And let's face it, although it is most important that we feel comfortable in our bodies and identification - we do not live in a bubble. I am not blind to the fact that I do have to face the outside world every day, and therefore their view does ultimately effect me. Whether it be my safety or my comfort. I can handle the stares and whispers... but it is different when I'm out with my bonus children and they have to see it.

Being in this grey zone has been incredibly difficult for me. Things such as public restrooms - most of those who identify as butch or trans can relate to that. It isn't easy and I often wish that I could simply just go on T. My therapist has already granted me approval. She did so last year and in March I had made my appointment with the surgeon and endocrinologist. But when everything was brought to a halt, I felt like a huge blow had been dealt to the center of my chest.

Being different is not easy, by any means. Whether you are butch, trans, male identified or female identified. We live in a society that is not open to alternatives due to their conformity in binaries. And yeah we can boast about the comfort we have found within ourselves, which is part of our journey. But society's views can and often do cause some discomfort at some times.

So thank you, for having this thread available.

I wish you the very best on your journey.

[SelfMadeMan]

I hear you, and I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you! I think you're doing the right thing by taking your time and being cautious with your health - we only get one life :)
Yes, there are safety concerns when in public, because we know how crazy people can be... but you mentioned that you have a boyish look... and I think you're probably just fine. A lot of places now have family restrooms, and more and more places are putting in gender neutral facilities, so I'd say use one of those options whenever possible. But when you do need to use the public mensroom, keep in mind that guys typically just go in and take care of business and don't generally socialize or even make frequent eye contact with whoever else happens to be in there, so they likely won't even notice you.
I hope you get the answers you want from your doctor... but no matter what, you are no less of a man because of whether or not you use T, and regardless of surgical status.
Thanks for sharing your story!!

[thedivahrrrself]

Thanks so much for this thread. As the GF of a Trans-ID'd, Stone Butch sweetheart, this helps me to understand him more.

He is 49 and medically unable to go on T. He'd like top surgery, but is not satisfied with the bottom surgery options, and feels like without a complete transition, it would be meaningless to him.

One thing I love about him is that he is not offended when people call us "lesbians" (we're queer, but whatever), he doesn't mind that my family and his own will probably call him "her" for the rest of their lives. We switch pronouns depending on who we're speaking to. He doesn't feel like he has to explain his gender to anyone. I am not a straight woman, and I don't ID as bisexual, and he doesn't pressure me to put those labels on myself.

One of the things some of you mentioned were the ladies, thanks for the shout-out. It is not always easy to be a femme, whether you date butches, transmen, or both. I've been called "anti-feminist", "not a real lesbian", and people have no clue what the word Queer really means. At a gay bar, I occasionally get mistaken for a drag queen! But this is nothing compared to his struggle.

Mostly the world sees him as male (until he speaks). He cares very little about what people think of him, so getting called "ma'am" doesn't phase him a bit. What he does struggle with is internal. Some days he doesn't "feel like much of a man". (I can't help but scoff at this - he is SUCH a man! LOL and not always in flattering ways!) At times, he despises his body. I wish there was more I could to to reinforce his internal masculinity and help him be at ease with exactly who he is standing in his own skin...

Until the world realizes that gender is a spectrum, not a dichotomy, there will always be a struggle. I think many are pressured to transition just because they feel male. That is not the answer for everyone, and I'm glad there is a safe space here in the interwebs for those wonderful guys like my beau. :)

Kisses to all you bravehearts!

[Mr Nice Guy]

I decided years ago to not go through the transition. I'm very scared of needles and knew I couldn't do it. I also met a gay man that changed to a female and he showed me photos of his before and after. I was shocked because I realized that he had to kill the man he was to become the woman she is now. That meant that I would kill the butch that I've been all those years to become the man I wanted to be. The only problem with that was I liked and grew to love being butch and love myself for being just that. Now I'm just a butch who likes to _ _ _ _. I find it very hard to meet a lesbian who accepts this or doesn't try to change me. I'm going to stay true to me and just hope to someday meet someone that sees my heart.

[PumaJ]

Not too long ago, my Boifriend, myself & one of my exes (who is quite the dapper Butch) had a discussion about top surgery. I mostly listened as they talked about wanting to get it done. Neither of them want to transition to male. They are each okay having a basically female bodies, but are uncomfortable having breasts. They do see themselves as 3rd gender, neither female or male, but a combination of both that creates a 3rd.

My Boifriend goes by hy, hys, & hym & does consider hymself as transgender/genderqueer. My ex doesn't use any alternate pronouns & sees herself as Butch, but not trans. My ex is in her late 50s & my Boifriend is in hys late 30s. The differences in their self views may be generational, IDK, we didn't talk about that aspect.

In my view as a Femme, they are equally MOC, the difference being the expression of that quality as Butch or Boi.

Over the years it has become so obvious to me that there are more than two genders, & perhaps more than three. That being said, those that I've known who have transitioned were those who truly felt born into the wrong gendered body. Whether born into female or male bodies, there wasn't any of the I'm part both, so am 3rd gendered. It has been, I'm in the wrong body.

I can only imagine how difficult it can be to feel like one is in the wrong body, but not be able to change it for health or perhaps financial reasons. Finding peace within that dissonance must surely be quite a challenge. I deeply appreciate the sharing many of you are doing as you negotiate your path on the journey.

[rande]

It takes a great deal of courage to live, let alone live as one believes in spite of society's interpretation of the person's physical nature.

I am a Stone Butch/FTM who most likely will never be able to transition. Some of it is due to finances, some of it due to health reasons. My bone condition would react badly to T.

If I can figure out how to get top surgery, I will. In a New York minute!

So I guess I'll always be "Third Gendered," although I see myself as male.
In my relationships, I am honest. I tell my potential partner my true nature, and leave it to them to stay or leave (sometimes after slapping my face).
I never "entrap" anyone....preferring the awkward moments take place conversationally rather than waiting until passion's fire has already been lit.

It's scary, not knowing if you're about to be rejected or accepted. But I guess that's so in all aspects of life.
It's just that when it comes to sexuality, there's a great deal more vulnerability than say, just discussing favorite flavors of ice cream.

Do I consider myself courageous? Dunno. Not my call to make.
But I will say that anybody who is living this Third Gender life has had to grow a pair, metaphorically speaking, in order to get through some of it.

It ain't easy being 'tween.
But it's me.:motorbike:

[Julien]

I thought I would bump this thread.

My situation is this, I consider myself GenderQueer in that I have a female body, will answer to female pronouns because policing the pronoun use is frustrating, but I see myself as male. Because of financial reasons I do not believe I can accomplish the transition. For me that would be top surgery and T. Am I content with this in between state? Not really, but at this moment in my life I see no other alternative other than to put myself out there as who I "see" myself to be, get "mistaken" for male by others and yet be female bodied. I am who I am and that is somewhere in between male and female as someone looking at me might think. When in reality my brain sees the male side far more than my eyes see the female body. I'd like to think that this state is a unique position to be in. Maybe wanting something so much and not being able to achieve that is not a good thing. So we have to make the best of our situation and accept the uniqueness in ourselves.

[Phyl]

[COLOR=
I have always lived as a man My mother and father seen as a small child I was different then my sisters so being open minded people they let me just be so I never felt the need to ever truly transition because they just let me to wear mens clothes and be a boy. my father would talk to me like I was a boy telling me and teaching me how to treat a woman right they were always very proud of how I acted and treated women so transition was never necessary...

[Nadeest]

I am so very glad for you, that you had such good parents, Phyl. :)

[froggy674u]

Jet I couldn't have said it better myself. I have never felt like a lesbian.I hate when my mother tells people I am one.I perfectly happy wearing my binder,and dont feel the need for top surgery.I do feel the need for T tho so the outside can match the inside,and for my own personal happiness.I have always dressed in mens clothing.I own nothing that resembles anything like a woman.I finally have my parents calling me Kel insted of my full name which is androgynous anyways.I just want to look like my dad.I already act like him which is a good thing.Hes taught me everything I know about life.My parents are happily married now for 50 yrs.Thats all I want from life as well.Is that to much to ask for?

[alexri]

I really appreciate this thread. I have always known I was different. As a child, I used to sneak downstairs after dark, light candles in the garage, make an altar, and pray to god that I be turned into a boy. I would fantasize about sex but the "man" always had no head. Later I realized it was me. Coming out as a lesbian was part of the process but it took me years later to understand I'm really a trans/thirdgender person. I didn't know about this stuff growing up (diehard catholic family) and even now the trans part of my life is still not revealed to all because so many just don't understand it.

My spirit is male. My personality, my attitude, my inner essence, it's all male. I was a tomboy that played with trucks and legos. I was always the dad when we played house. I've been buying and wearing men's clothes for 20 years. It's always been there. I just never had a word for it. And now that I embrace it more, it flows more freely from me. It's always been natural, comfortable, right.

But I am in a female body. I find comfort from the personal believe that transgenderism happens through reincarnation. It's my belief that our gender is part of that inner spirit that also contains our thoughts, personalities, talents, intelligence, etc., and as it travels from life to life, sometimes it changes and becomes more fluid, and sometimes it reinforces or strengthens the maleness/femaleness. And sometimes that dominantly male spirit drops into a female physical body. For some people it's such an uncomfortable experience that they have to change; for others it's bearable.

I don't want to physically transition because I don't want to altar the person I am physically. I don't want to risk what hormones can do to my personal health. I do not want to risk the loss of sexual function by changing or removing organs/breasts. I enjoy when a female partner pleasures my body, even though they are female organs, because I know it feels good. And the picture in my mind of what is happening may be very different from what is really happening (ex in my mind during oral, I may be fantasizing that I am getting a blow job). There are times where I am frustrated that I cannot be as muscular as I'd like to be, and that I have womanly curves, and I will forever be in sports bras, which compress the breasts pretty well. People will say that this makes me not really trans and instead just butch. But when I slap on those jeans and dockers, button down my shirt, run a comb through my short, wet hair, and hold a door open for a lady, I know who I am.

[Nadeest]

Everyone makes their own choices, based on what they feel is right for them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with your choice, and don't let anyone tell you differently.

The theory of yours about transgenderism happening through reincarnation is very interesting, and rather plausible. There is no way of proving it right now, but it does seems to explain a lot of things, to my mind.

[Nadeest]

I realize that this column is about FTM's, but let us not forget about the MTF's that are in the same boat. I'm afraid that they generally have a lot less freedom to be their trueselves then FTM's that do not or cannot transition. :(

[DapperButch]

I realize that this column is about FTM's, but let us not forget about the MTF's that are in the same boat. I'm afraid that they generally have a lot less freedom to be their trueselves then FTM's that do not or cannot transition. :(

I absolutely agree with you and have thought about this time and time again. I know I am a lucky biological female in that I can pass and that female masculinity is more accepted than male femininity in our society.

[Nadeest]

I've had friends(mtfs) that were in that boat. :(

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

It has taken me almost four months to type the word transgender into the BFP search and find my way here. My very first post in the listening to you thread stated I was hiding even in a community where I did not think I needed to. You know though I felt I do need to hide from the lesbian community. Whether they are butch, femme, dyke, FTM, or any other label on the spectrum of homosexuality. Hell sometimes I still hide from myself out of fear of so many things. Well I made some major decisions today that I have been thinking about for a long time now. So, here I am fulfilling the need and respecting the decision to be truly honest with the BFP community but more so to go back to being honest with myself. I am not a butch on any spectrum have not been for many years now however, I am not a FTM either I have known that for almost as long. I am a transgendered man or as I am discovering the new word is gender queer. I hid here for the same reason I have hid in real life it is real lonely being a trans not fitting into either the butch/femme community or the FTM/MTF community.
I never "came out" of the closet because I was never in one in my mind after all I was not a "lesbian". I was just in the wrong body in my mind so it was perfectly natural for me to be attracted to girls and women when I was a kid. I was always a "tomboy" growing up. I just recalled my 10th Christmas when I received this little wallet that was supposed to go into a play purse and how I just took it and instinctively put it into my back pocket...boy the crap I caught for that lol...but that is just how natural it was for me back then. I hated my birth name it was just wrong. Yet I could not get and still cannot get my bio-family to call me anything but that curse of a name. I am Alix I have always been Alix in my heart, mind, body and soul.
My journey from butch to transgendered was a rough and rocky one. Mainly due to lack of support and information available. Anyway part of that journey included exploring whether I was really a FTM and I finally came to the decision I was not but only because I do not want the surgery. I do not feel I have to change my body to be the man I am. I do not see breast when I look at myself and IF the woman touches me in that area I limit it to the nipple area because hey I know bio men that enjoy that stimulation so I do not find it strange that as a man I do. I have had relationships with women that failed because I refused to be true to myself. However the successful ones I have has happened when I did present as a man. However I have only had that success with bisexual women or women that id as straight but don’t want bio men. I have not had the honor of meeting a woman that id as a femme that wanted to be with me as a gender queer but it could happen. I think that is why I return to the hiding mode so easily. The butch/femme community for me locally is pretty nonexistent never mind the danger of being transgendered here. The sad thing is I do not live in a small rural community either.
Well I am getting close to my number count max and not sure I really said what I wanted to say. So I will end with I am glad I found this thread because sometimes it is hard to be a transgendered man that does not want the surgery. Hi everyone I am a 45 year old transgendered man and it feels good to finally say that on this site.

[Nadeest]

It could certainly happen, Alix. I, for one, would have no problem going out with someone that is transgendered, but has no wish to change their body. I'm more concerned with the quality and type of person that they are,rather then the body that they have.

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Nadesst thank you for your encouragement. This world needs more people that think that way no matter what sexuality or gender they are in my opinion. Where it is the quality of the person that matters most. It is also my responsibility to do my best to get back to not caring what others think of me so that I am truer to myself. Don't get me wrong I have been lucky enough to meet a femme on this site that accepted my identity however it was one of those wrong place wrong time situations. Where we both agreed that we had met at the wrong time. Actually she is part of the reason I had the courage finally to come to this section of BFP. So I do know there are femmes out there whether they identify as lesbian or queer that love us and are open to being with us. I just need to move to a different location I think and I am actually taking steps to do that.

I also know that the women that love us go through their own struggles and pain. I thank every one of them for the courage that takes as well.

[Nadeest]

Alix, in some ways, I am in a similar position. I am a transgendered female that has basically transitioned, except for completing the remodeling of my body. I have not yet had SRS, and I may never be able to afford that, though I do plan on having it.

I fear that a lot of people are not willing to accept that about me, in a lover; men, as well as women. I am primarily concerned about the lesbian community, however, as I am primarily attracted to women.

For them, if I don't have a vagina, what use am I to them, sexually? For my part, if they cannot accept me, fully and completely, the way that I am now, why should I want them in my life after I have SRS?

[JustJo]

If I may tiptoe in... :rrose:

I'm one of those late-blooming femmes that lived as straight until I was about 40. My time in this community is relatively short, and even in the last decade, my life has been more about getting an education, furthering my career and raising my son than it has been about relationships.

I have heard and seen ugliness towards transgendered people, both in and out of this community...and for me it is both disgusting and heartbreaking that anyone would feel so free to harshly judge someone simply because they are different. For me, transphobia is the absolute equivalent of racism...and just as fundamentally wrong.

When I first joined this site, I was confused (and questioned) why someone who identified and lived as male would want to be here. I believe it was Linus who posted something that resonated with me about this community being the equivalent of a home town that you love.....it may no longer be where you live exactly, but it's a part of your history and your heart that you treasure and cling to.

When I first started talking to Snack I was upfront with him that this was new to me...and that I had never been in a relationship with anyone who was trans. He understands this, thankfully, and has been both patient and generous with sharing his experiences, thoughts and feelings.

For me, he is a guy....my guy...and, in some ways, it's almost like a return to "straight" life as he is seen as male by most people. There are exceptions, but they are rare. Whether or not he medically transitions is immaterial to me. That is his very personal decision....and one I will suppport no matter which direction he chooses.

For me, physical anatomy is merely that....and whether someone has a vagina or not is about as important as how tall they are. It just doesn't matter. Who he is....his values, his character, his sense of humor, and how he lives his life....matters infinitely more.

If someone is shallow enough to judge based purely on the physical....I don't have time for them, no matter who they are or how they identify. I choose to live my life with those who have more depth than that.

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

I guess I have a question and did not know any better place to put but in this thread. Bear with Me please as I may not word it correctly or may ramble or stumble around it. For those that know Me yes even I can be a little gun shy or a loss for the right words sometimes. As I have stated earlier I am TG when I am most honest with Myself that is how I ID in this lovely society of labels. When I sit with Myself and think about what that means to Me it is almost like I am caught between two worlds, Butch and FTM, because I am neither yet closer to FTM due to My masculinity. I have no desire to transition or take T I feel every bit masculine and even a male at times. However I have no desire to date straight women been there done that no thank you my heart can not take it but that is Me. I have finally come to a point that I am ready to date and for the first time am I attempting to be more honest about My ID had no problem on the other site for some reason *shrug*.
I also do not have a lot of butch friends in real life because of being TG but that may be because of My location though I am close to Chicago and Madison so who knows.
I guess My question is since I am single and I do want a community did I make a mistake joining a butch-femme site? Feel free to respond here or send Me a pm if your uncomfortable doing so. Thank you in advance. ALix

[Corkey]

I have lots of Butch friends, right here. Do you really think you made a mistake, or are you just not comfortable on the site? Personally I have friends all over the spectrum, their gender is not why we're friends, who they are as people matter a heck of a lot more.

Color me confused.

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

See if that helps. Sorry for confusion.

[Corkey]

Can't help you from here. Best way to get to know folks is to get out there. "s all I got.

[DapperButch]

Hi, Alix. No, I don't think you made a mistake. Although this site is defined as a butch/femme site, those who are TG or FTM are welcome.

To be honest, I wished that this site defined itself as a butch/femme/TG site, but they do not. I am glad that they have a "trans zone", though.

For myself, however, I do define very strongly as butch. I define as a TG Butch, and both identities (if for some reason you want to separate them out), are just as solid in my soul, as the other, perhaps butch a bit more so.

There are transguys here who define as butch and some that do not. It has been stated by Admin that trans people are welcome here. I wouldn't give it a second thought.

[Nadeest]

I don't think that you made a mistake at all, Alix.

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

I have not visited this thread since creating my own. However, I cam in tonight to copy paste my intro on here so I could include it in my thread as it is part of my journey, part of my life so to speak. I reread some of the posts and thought that the thread needed a bump. To get back on the front page for other Bravehearts old and new to see. After all that is how I found it Julien had bumped it. So bump :)

[SelfMadeMan]

Just bumping this thread to give a shout out to the Bravehearts! I admire the courage and strength it takes NOT to transition and still do YOU - however you choose to do you! Never let anyone make you feel less than. Your stories are just as important, and just as real.

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Posting in here in honor of those that lost their lives over the years and face hate because of who we are. Nov. 20 is the National Transgender Day of Remembrance. I find it sad that we meaning Bravehearts, FTM, MTF, and all the rest of the spectrum of being transgender has to have a day because society is so full of hate and misunderstanding. Keep those that came before us in your thoughts and let us not forget them.


On a personal note I took a big step today at least for me it is a big step. I asked my primary doctor for a name of a gender therapist and while she did not know one she did refer me to see someone that will help me find one. Many things have changed for me and most of it I have done alone (by my choice) but I have come to realize I need to at least talk to someone that gets it. Whatever it is...Have a wonderful weekend everyone!!

[SelfMadeMan]

On a personal note I took a big step today at least for me it is a big step. I asked my primary doctor for a name of a gender therapist and while she did not know one she did refer me to see someone that will help me find one. Many things have changed for me and most of it I have done alone (by my choice) but I have come to realize I need to at least talk to someone that gets it. Whatever it is...Have a wonderful weekend everyone!!

That's awesome Alix! I hope you're able to find a gender therapist in your area, and that you get your questions answered! Let me know if you ever need to talk :) - Mike

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Because I am not officially nor do I at this time consider myself a FTM I feel uncomfortable posting in the FTM venting thread. Yet, I have a need to vent so why not in this thread.

After all I am still unable to begin the transition I have secretly desired for a good many years now. Hey, this is improvement from my first post in here where I stated I choose not to and I am okay with it. Well it is not that I choose not to transition and I really am no where near okay with the body I was born into. What I am and I am ashamed to admit this, is conditioned to do something I swear I do not do and refuse to do and that is conform to everyone's wish or how they see me.

It seems to be worse when ever I live in my home town and state, like now, but no matter where I am that little voice is always in my head. The one that tells me I am to old to be trying to get my physical body to match the image I have of myself. I get so tired of hearing my birth name. Let's be honest I am tired of feeling the anger and the cringe each time I do hear it or see it. Which is way to often for my taste. Hearing it is such a shock to my system that I actually use it as the ultimate "stop" safe word when in a D/s relationship. Trust me it is good for that at least...will pull me right out of everything instantly no matter how intense the scene is!

Now that I am at the stage in my life, actually have been for awhile, where I want to transition and hell need to transition if for nothing else but my own sanity. Any acknowledgement to the body I was born into cuts through me like a knife. To hear Mam instead of Sir from strangers is almost as bad as hearing my birth name or my siblings calling me sis. However, nothing is worse then my own eyes sometimes. The my hands/fingers are to small. The acknowledgement that I have small feet for my height. The bitterness I feel when I see a real cool tat on a guys chest and think wow I want that then realize I can not have it.

I had a hystro long ago and with the research I have done I know I will never have bottom surgery or not until a lot more improvement is done in that area. This is where I am more then grateful for the ability to "feel" when I am having sex with a woman. To hear my own voice and cringe because it is not deep enough. The desire for T and the knowledge of how that one thing could improve my life yet know or think it just will not happen. Starts right in the feeling of why did I wait so long to reject the idea of continuing to conform. I just want my body, the one everyone sees, the one I see in the mirror to finally represent the man I am.

Okay vent over...
I do however want to acknowledge my continued support of those of us that choose not to medically transition. It is hard to be a "braveheart" and no matter the reason I want those that come after me to know I appreciate who they are.

[Thinker]

Just want you to know I hear you......I get you.....and you are brave.

Big hugs your way, Alix...

Because I am not officially nor do I at this time consider myself a FTM I feel uncomfortable posting in the FTM venting thread. Yet, I have a need to vent so why not in this thread.

After all I am still unable to begin the transition I have secretly desired for a good many years now. Hey, this is improvement from my first post in here where I stated I choose not to and I am okay with it. Well it is not that I choose not to transition and I really am no where near okay with the body I was born into. What I am and I am ashamed to admit this, is conditioned to do something I swear I do not do and refuse to do and that is conform to everyone's wish or how they see me.

It seems to be worse when ever I live in my home town and state, like now, but no matter where I am that little voice is always in my head. The one that tells me I am to old to be trying to get my physical body to match the image I have of myself. I get so tired of hearing my birth name. Let's be honest I am tired of feeling the anger and the cringe each time I do hear it or see it. Which is way to often for my taste. Hearing it is such a shock to my system that I actually use it as the ultimate "stop" safe word when in a D/s relationship. Trust me it is good for that at least...will pull me right out of everything instantly no matter how intense the scene is!

Now that I am at the stage in my life, actually have been for awhile, where I want to transition and hell need to transition if for nothing else but my own sanity. Any acknowledgement to the body I was born into cuts through me like a knife. To hear Mam instead of Sir from strangers is almost as bad as hearing my birth name or my siblings calling me sis. However, nothing is worse then my own eyes sometimes. The my hands/fingers are to small. The acknowledgement that I have small feet for my height. The bitterness I feel when I see a real cool tat on a guys chest and think wow I want that then realize I can not have it.

I had a hystro long ago and with the research I have done I know I will never have bottom surgery or not until a lot more improvement is done in that area. This is where I am more then grateful for the ability to "feel" when I am having sex with a woman. To hear my own voice and cringe because it is not deep enough. The desire for T and the knowledge of how that one thing could improve my life yet know or think it just will not happen. Starts right in the feeling of why did I wait so long to reject the idea of continuing to conform. I just want my body, the one everyone sees, the one I see in the mirror to finally represent the man I am.

Okay vent over...
I do however want to acknowledge my continued support of those of us that choose not to medically transition. It is hard to be a "braveheart" and no matter the reason I want those that come after me to know I appreciate who they are.

[SelfMadeMan]

Because I am not officially nor do I at this time consider myself a FTM I feel uncomfortable posting in the FTM venting thread. Yet, I have a need to vent so why not in this thread.

After all I am still unable to begin the transition I have secretly desired for a good many years now. Hey, this is improvement from my first post in here where I stated I choose not to and I am okay with it. Well it is not that I choose not to transition and I really am no where near okay with the body I was born into. What I am and I am ashamed to admit this, is conditioned to do something I swear I do not do and refuse to do and that is conform to everyone's wish or how they see me.

It seems to be worse when ever I live in my home town and state, like now, but no matter where I am that little voice is always in my head. The one that tells me I am to old to be trying to get my physical body to match the image I have of myself. I get so tired of hearing my birth name. Let's be honest I am tired of feeling the anger and the cringe each time I do hear it or see it. Which is way to often for my taste. Hearing it is such a shock to my system that I actually use it as the ultimate "stop" safe word when in a D/s relationship. Trust me it is good for that at least...will pull me right out of everything instantly no matter how intense the scene is!

Now that I am at the stage in my life, actually have been for awhile, where I want to transition and hell need to transition if for nothing else but my own sanity. Any acknowledgement to the body I was born into cuts through me like a knife. To hear Mam instead of Sir from strangers is almost as bad as hearing my birth name or my siblings calling me sis. However, nothing is worse then my own eyes sometimes. The my hands/fingers are to small. The acknowledgement that I have small feet for my height. The bitterness I feel when I see a real cool tat on a guys chest and think wow I want that then realize I can not have it.

I had a hystro long ago and with the research I have done I know I will never have bottom surgery or not until a lot more improvement is done in that area. This is where I am more then grateful for the ability to "feel" when I am having sex with a woman. To hear my own voice and cringe because it is not deep enough. The desire for T and the knowledge of how that one thing could improve my life yet know or think it just will not happen. Starts right in the feeling of why did I wait so long to reject the idea of continuing to conform. I just want my body, the one everyone sees, the one I see in the mirror to finally represent the man I am.

Okay vent over...
I do however want to acknowledge my continued support of those of us that choose not to medically transition. It is hard to be a "braveheart" and no matter the reason I want those that come after me to know I appreciate who they are.

hey Alix - man, I feel for you!! I just wanted to let you know that I hear you, and my offer stands.. if you need to vent or talk or anything, give me a shout. I think you're very brave.

[Nadeest]

The same goes for me, Alix. If you need or want to talk, I'm here.

[Maverick]

Most, if not all of what Alix said in his post I could say in mine. I am finding myself in a depressed state for the past couple of months due to the fact that I don't feel like I can transition and I think I'm in mourning over the life that I can never have. I'm 51 and when I think about transitioning I think "why bother at this point in your life?" All of the things that I wanted to do when I was younger are not now possible whether I am male or not due to my age. I can never be a young man. And after 50 years of family and friends thinking they know me as one thing how possible is it for them to grasp such a huge change as my gender anyway? I feel like it's hopeless and there's really no reason to even think about the possibility of transitioning. I'd like to make some modifications for my own peace of mind but just can't see myself gathering up enough courage to fully transition to male. Perhaps I've said it before here, and I mean no disrespect for anyone as I'm only speaking for myself, but I don't feel brave at all. I feel like if I was brave I would do what my heart and soul tell me is right for me and transition so I can live a congruous life where my soul and body are in alignment. Is it brave to walk the earth as a person who doesn't fit into a gender? I guess so. But, in my opinion, it's braver to be true to yourself no matter the consequences. Harder said then done. I'm not willing to lose everything I've built at this point but perhaps that will change one day. I don't know. Thanks for listening. I really needed to get that out.
Maverick

[Corkey]

Most, if not all of what Alix said in his post I could say in mine. I am finding myself in a depressed state for the past couple of months due to the fact that I don't feel like I can transition and I think I'm in mourning over the life that I can never have. I'm 51 and when I think about transitioning I think "why bother at this point in your life?" All of the things that I wanted to do when I was younger are not now possible whether I am male or not due to my age. I can never be a young man. And after 50 years of family and friends thinking they know me as one thing how possible is it for them to grasp such a huge change as my gender anyway? I feel like it's hopeless and there's really no reason to even think about the possibility of transitioning. I'd like to make some modifications for my own peace of mind but just can't see myself gathering up enough courage to fully transition to male. Perhaps I've said it before here, and I mean no disrespect for anyone as I'm only speaking for myself, but I don't feel brave at all. I feel like if I was brave I would do what my heart and soul tell me is right for me and transition so I can live a congruous life where my soul and body are in alignment. Is it brave to walk the earth as a person who doesn't fit into a gender? I guess so. But, in my opinion, it's braver to be true to yourself no matter the consequences. Harder said then done. I'm not willing to lose everything I've built at this point but perhaps that will change one day. I don't know. Thanks for listening. I really needed to get that out.
Maverick

The brave thing is being yourself in what ever package *you* happen to occupy. Not all of us can transition, due to any number of issues. Living, that is the bravest thing we can do. I'm 54, never to be that boy I know myself to be, or the man other people "see". But my family accepts me as I am, her Husband, their Uncle, their Cousin. That comes because of my being honest with them, and they get it.
We have 1 mirror in the house and it only is the medicine cabinet mirror, so I don't get bombarded with my physical image and can maintain my mental image of my being. It helps me, it may help you as well.

[Maverick]

Apologies, I meant KnightsBlade's post, not Alix's.

[Maverick]

The brave thing is being yourself in what ever package *you* happen to occupy. Not all of us can transition, due to any number of issues. Living, that is the bravest thing we can do. I'm 54, never to be that boy I know myself to be, or the man other people "see". But my family accepts me as I am, her Husband, their Uncle, their Cousin. That comes because of my being honest with them, and they get it.
We have 1 mirror in the house and it only is the medicine cabinet mirror, so I don't get bombarded with my physical image and can maintain my mental image of my being. It helps me, it may help you as well.


Corkey, I'm glad that you are able to communicate your needs to your family and get the respect you deserve. As for the mirrors, we only have a mirror in our bathroom so that's not an issue for me at all. I think what I'm dealing with at the moment isn't so much dysphoria over my body or how people interact with me. I only realized a couple of years ago that I am transgender...just didn't have the information needed to make that conclusion until then. In trying to decide what to do with this new information I realize that, even if I were to transition today to male the big dreams I've always secretly carried with me can never happen anyway because of my age. There is a mourning going on about this. And, as KnightsBlade pointed out...if I didn't care at all about what my friends, family, society, etc expected of me I might choose differently. I think everyone here is brave to live their lives the way they feel is best for them..which most often is outside of our cultural "norm". We're all bravehearts, yes! Thanks for your input.

Mav

[Luke]

Hi I'm a trans who hasn't taken hormones or had surgery.I'm teetering on the brink of doing so.most of the time but have just kepr trying to funtion otherwise: keep busy, enjoy the things I like doing.Also Ihoped maybe I'd meet someone who gets me but of course this is proving to be very difficult.Dating is a nightmare! So I keep the door open.to transitioning a little bit more everyday.Then other times I just focus on work.

[Corkey]

Hi I'm a trans who hasn't taken hormones or had surgery.I'm teetering on the brink of doing so.most of the time but have just kepr trying to funtion otherwise: keep busy, enjoy the things I like doing.Also Ihoped maybe I'd meet someone who gets me but of course this is proving to be very difficult.Dating is a nightmare! So I keep the door open.to transitioning a little bit more everyday.Then other times I just focus on work.

Welcome to the Planet Luke

[Luke]

Thank you Corkey!

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Hi everyone.
This is where I am choosing to post my birthday post in a way. Well my good bye to 45 post. In about 2 hours or so I will see another year roll in and you know what while my body is not male I am ALIVE. So many of us can not say that.

I can say that by this time next year I will be on T and my screen name will be back to Alix because by then my name will be legally Alix Knight. I also want to say I have come to the conclusion this transition is about me and only me. How far I take it or not take it. Sure support would be wonderful and the reaction of being recognized for the man I am is going to be great however if I do not do it for me I am doing it for the wrong reasons.

Anyways wish all my brothers were here to celebrate another year with me. Cigars for those that smoke and steaks and vegies on the grill.

Alix

[Maverick]

Happy Birthday Alix! I wish you every happiness you've ever dreamed of this year as you set forth on your quest to discover your true self. Congrats on your decision and you're right, it has to be all about you and what's right for you.
Maverick

[Nadeest]

Each of us has to find a balance in our life, that works for us. That can change, over time, I have found. To that end, we each make choices, which hopefully, make our lives better. For me, it was transition, even though I may never be able to afford any surgeries. That was my choice, and it has made my life better, even with all the difficulties that transition brings.

I will not say, however, that that is the right choice for everyone. We each have to decide that on our own. Whatever choices that we make, though, we will never fully be 'whole' and entirely comfortable with our bodies. This is part of who we are. Why we are this way, I do not know. I simply play the hand that I was dealt, the best way that I can. That is what all of us do. Hang in there!

[Greyson]

I just got home from more medical appointments. Recently I ran into an unexpected medical problem. In consultation with my doctors I decided I will no longer be taking Testosterone. This is most likely for the rest of my life. I can live with that. I am now legally a male and in my heart of hearts I know for me, I am not the same as a cisgender man.

For the past 5 or 6 years I have contemplated and researched vast amounts of information on Gender Reassignment, Gender Expression, Feminism, Misogyny, Internalized Misogyny, Internalized Homophobia, Internalize Fatphoia, Internalized Racism, Spirituality and what does that look like for me and in humanity.

What I have learned is that I am not all that different from any other human being. I am no longer living in constant fear, separation from "others" and self absorbed living, thinking I am there for others.

Why am I writing this in the Trans Zone? Well because I am Trans and am learning to come to peace with who I really am, a third gender. So many times during all of this medical stuff, I am being referred to as "she." Why does it rattle me so? Before going through gender reassignment I was called sir with regularity. i was also born a cisgender female. My gender expression has always been considered masculine. But here is the caveat to "mascilinity".... Masculinity does not only express in cisgender men, masculine identified cisgender females, Butches and Transmen.

After I had a two hour discussion today with an RN preparing me for surgery next week, she asked me if there is anything she can do to help make this upcoming surgery and hospitalization less stressful. I replied, "Yes."

I then proceeded to ask about the hospital's Diversity Training and if the training included education on LGBTQ concerns. She said she has been at this hospital for 18 years and has never had any diversity training that included LGBTQ concerns. (Keep in mind this is a hospital and Trauma Center in the SF Bay Area.) The nurse was very receptive to our discussion and promised me she is going to bring this to the attention of her superiors. I know there are consultants in our community that offer sensitivity training regarding our LGBTQ concerns.

I have kind of been all over the map in this post. Thank you for listening.

[DapperButch]

Hey, Greyson. I just wanted to say that I hear you, all that you said.

I appreciate you opening up and sharing with us. It takes just as much courage to take hormones, as it takes to not take hormones. It takes courage to live the "flavor" of whatever our gender identity is.

[Nadeest]

I agree, you are not fully the same as a cis-gender male. Nor am I the same as a cis-gender female. We don't have the same experiences as cis-gendered people. You have more of the experiences as a cis-female, and I have more the experiences as a cis-male, but we never fully experience everything the way that cis-people do.

As one person that I knew put it: Cis-females are on one side of the mountain, Cis-males another, and transfolk are on the top of the mountain. We can see and experience some of the things that both groups do, but never as fully and deeply as the people on either side of the mountain. On the other hand, we get to view and experience things that each group does not normally get to.

[DapperButch]

I agree, you are not fully the same as a cis-gender male. Nor am I the same as a cis-gender female. We don't have the same experiences as cis-gendered people. You have more of the experiences as a cis-female, and I have more the experiences as a cis-male, but we never fully experience everything the way that cis-people do.

As one person that I knew put it: Cis-females are on one side of the mountain, Cis-males another, and transfolk are on the top of the mountain. We can see and experience some of the things that both groups do, but never as fully and deeply as the people on either side of the mountain. On the other hand, we get to view and experience things that each group does not normally get to.

Wow, what a fantastic, powerful statement. Perfect.

[SelfMadeMan]

Thank you for sharing that post Greyson. I am so sorry you're having to deal with medical issues and I know all too well how scary that can be.

Stopping T is not going to change who you are, not one bit. I think you're very brave and making very smart decisions for your health and for your future. Good luck today, and I send mucho positive energy your way!

[Maverick]

I'm bumping this thread because it is so good for those of us who are questioning, uncertain, can't or won't transition to find support.

:loveBFP:

Personally, I continue to wrestle with the hugeness of changing my outer gender to reflect my inner gender and take my stand for who I truly am in the world. The thought of losing so much that I love in order to be true to myself is overwhelming. Yet, for me it is coming down to a bigger issue of claiming myself and standing up for my true self in this world that has for so long told ME who I am.

I had a dream this morning that I woke up with a beard and I was THRILLED!! And no one even noticed it lol. I kept showing it to people and they were like...that's nice. Hmm.. I kept running my hand across it and looking in the mirror and was so excited that I had a beard yet to everyone else it just seemed normal. Interesting.

Anyway, that's my bump for today. Just wanted to share with you guys and gals.

Carry on.
Mav

:flying:

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Thank you for bumping this thread. I know I have found a lot of support and advice in this thread before I actually did start my transition a week ago.

You know Mav if you decide to do transition it is all about the little steps and going at YOUR pace. You may decide to only take T or go further to top and bottom surgery. Whatever is right for YOU. I suggest research and more research but don't forget the support along the way. My journey was long and full of many unexpected twists but it was a journey I had to take again at My pace.

I was once like you and was afraid of what I would loose. Now at 46 I am like many guys and am surprised of how many of things I did actually loose. Plus how little the ones I did loose actually meant to me, in the big picture.
Remind yourself that it is 2013 and a lot has changed including the thinking of many people. You also have the option I took of moving somewhere that the environment and thinking is more positive to trans* people and to the Bravhearts of this world.

[Nadeest]

I agree with KnightsBlade on this. Take your time on this, and only go as far as you are comfortable with, at the time. I remember that my mentor, long ago, kept telling me to take baby steps, and not to jump into things. She also told me that, generally, if you start trying to live as a female, all at once, you are going to run into all kinds of roadblocks, that you didn't expect. It is better to do things gradually, and both accustom yourself, and the people around you to the changes that you are making, in your life.

This advice worked well for me, and I have had a relatively smooth transition, with a lot less trouble then many people have experienced. I especially took my time changing the way that I dressed, only going as far as I was comfortable with, at the time.

Trust me, the little steps add up, even though it doesn't seem like it at the time. Things seem to go very slowly, at the start of transition, but boy, does that change, after a while.

It was recommended to me, to keep a journal during my transition, and look back at it, about once a year or so. Trust me, you will notice the changes in your life, at that point, especially a couple of years down the road.

[Maverick]

Thanks Nadeest and KnightsBlade for your helpful advice to take it slow. I am definitely taking it slow and spend a lot of time researching my options and how others have journeyed through their transitions. Yes, it's a slow process and it sometimes feels like I'm not moving forward at all but I am reminded occasionally of how far I've actually come in just a couple of years. I do keep a journal and it's very interesting to look back once in a while. This year I've learned so much about myself and so many pieces of my puzzle have finally fallen into place. So far it's been an incredible journey and I'm really looking forward to continuing along my current path. It gets lonely sometimes though so it's really nice to reach out and touch base with people that really understand what we go through to get to our true selves.

I shared this quote in another thread but think it's fitting here as well. It very much sums up how I feel about my own transition:

"My transition has not only been from an inauthentic life as a man to an authentic life as a woman. It has also been from a gender covenant based upon physical sex and social convention to a new gender covenant in which gender doesn’t mean being male or female, but being true to others by becoming our truest selves." -Joy Ladin

[Ilphithra]

Hello to all,

As someone suffering from Gender Dysphoria and having opted for not having sex reassignment surgery, I've decided to share with you the reasons why I don't do it.

I have researched extensively and pondered all the pros and cons that might come with it and I have made a lot of introspection in order to take a decision. After a long time, I decided it was better to keep the body I have and take good care of it.

I'm also divided about packing and other such methods.

Don't get me wrong... I hate my body and I'm thoroughly ashamed of it to the point I refuse to have sex with my SO with the lights on.

As much as I would love to change my body, I'm someone who looks at things objectively instead of jumping the gun and doing some kind of madness such as trying to mutilate myself.

My reasons for not "changing" are several as I said. I'll try to explain this as good as I can.

Pros - Match my mental and soul image.

Cons - Where to start?

Testosterone treatment: so much can go so wrong with the body that it's not even funny. Even with naturally high T, my doctor told me it would be best not to do it due to the cyclic cysts I have. It could increase them or worse. I decided not to do it.

Sex reassignment surgery: I have done extensive research in this and the results of FtM surgery are simply not satisfying to me.

Between the massive scarring, the chance of tissue rejection, the chance of necrosis, lack of any feeling, loss of ability to feel pleasure, etc... the risks and cons in this are so many that I simply threw it out of the window.

Come back to me when it's possible to use my stem cells and DNA scaffolding to grow a penis in lab and attach it safely to me. Maybe not in my lifetime but perhaps in the future this will be possible.

Binding my chest: As much as I would love a flat chest, I'm not about to turn my boobs into smashed pancakes. Let them be there and as perky as they want. The only way they go is if I get cancer risk.

Packing: This one brings so many mixed feelings to me it's not even funny.

Packing would enable me to get a penis, scrotum and balls... especially if I save up and get one of the pack&play from Lola Jake's (http://lolajake.com/secure/category/pack-play/). I would look down and see something somewhat realistic hanging in there, especially if glued (no harness).

However, at the end of the day, it's not really "mine". It's something, glued to me that gives me some feeling by stimulating my clitoris and pleasure to my SO by penetration... but it still comes off my body as it is not mine.

This "it's not mine" thought is what drives me absolutely nuts...

I'm absolutely sure I don't want to go under the knife due to the procedure having more cons than pros. I take my hat off to those who, even with the odds being nasty, still go through the FtM surgery and risk all the ailments that can come from T injections.

Perhaps I will pack in the future but I won't be binding. As much as I hate my body, it's the only body I have and I have to take good care of it, not mutilate it or hurt it.

It's as much my body's fault that it is female as it is my fault that I was born this way. I don't want to be hurt for being who I am, why would I hurt my own body for being what it is?

Yes, my body fitting the mental image I have of it would be nice... but I simply see no reasonable or safe way to do so. As such, I will take good care of what I have and live my life to the best of my abilities.

And maybe.. who knows... maybe I poke Lola Jake in the future... I'm not adverse to the hermaphrodite "look"... :winky:

[MsTinkerbelly]

"madness as trying to mutilate myself"....wow.

There are many people here in varying degrees of transitition, and words hurt.

[Ilphithra]

"madness as trying to mutilate myself"....wow.

There are many people here in varying degrees of transitition, and words hurt.
Well... while I understand why some of us hate their bodies to the point of trying to literally chop off their genitals for example, it doesn't mean it's something sane or normal to do.
It's something that happens out of absolute depression, unhappiness, frustration and desperation.

I won't say the thought never crossed my mind but I never went through with it or even got as far as grabbing a knife...

I'm sorry if my bluntness offends you but it's how I see and talk about things. I shall go back to lurking the forum as I have done until now so that I don't offend people due to being frontal and blunt about things. I don't have a habit of mincing or fluffing words.

Thanks for the "warm welcoming".

[Apocalipstic]

Well, we are definitely a mincing group. I like to think of it as being kind and polite.

Welcome, by the way!

[weatherboi]

I'm not adverse to the hermaphrodite "look"... :winky:

Glad you are here!!!

Hermaphrodite is a really antiquated term. Intersex is not a look and although I appreciate someone trying to infuse humor in an obviously stressful situation, I am certain Intersex is not a look but a gender that is akin to many of the things a transgender person goes thru. So please lets not poke humor at the expense of another gender that is struggling.

I totally get where you can feel this way about all the cons that you listed. It can be overwhelming to live a life in a body that doesn't match the mind and sometimes we find ourselves thinking and doing things to our bodies that can be construed as unsafe and not helpful in the long battle. I have run across many transgender persons that go thru periods of physical self hurt/mutilation. Is this what you are meaning???

[Ilphithra]

Well, we are definitely a mincing group. I like to think of it as being kind and polite.

Welcome, by the way!
Thanks...

... and sorry... but I'm the blunt type. I prefer to go back to lurking than facing diatribe for being myself.

Best wishes to all.

[Apocalipstic]

You know, if you really do care about being here, it becomes important to care about how our words affect other people. Yes, its great to be blunt, but it seems silly to put that out there then imply you can't post any more because you got a couple of mildly disapproving answers.

Seems mixed messagy.

Like come on hard, then get feelings hurt easy.

If you do care about being here, hang in and be you. But you can't expect everyone to agree with you. :)

[MsTinkerbelly]

Well... while I understand why some of us hate their bodies to the point of trying to literally chop off their genitals for example, it doesn't mean it's something sane or normal to do.
It's something that happens out of absolute depression, unhappiness, frustration and desperation.

I won't say the thought never crossed my mind but I never went through with it or even got as far as grabbing a knife...

I'm sorry if my bluntness offends you but it's how I see and talk about things. I shall go back to lurking the forum as I have done until now so that I don't offend people due to being frontal and blunt about things. I don't have a habit of mincing or fluffing words.

Thanks for the "warm welcoming".

Oh i was much kinder than i could have been...there is blunt, and there is offensive, and although i don't speak for anyone but myself, i found the way you frazed things to be purposely offensive to many people here...and as it was your first post EVER, i felt the need to stick my nose in it.

To "me" it felt as though you came in here to stir things up a bit, and oh look, you've suceeded.

Sorry admins I'll back out, was trying to be nice.

[Ilphithra]

You know, if you really do care about being here, it becomes important to care about how our words affect other people. Yes, its great to be blunt, but it seems silly to put that out there then imply you can't post any more because you got a couple of mildly disapproving answers.

Seems mixed messagy.

Like come on hard, then get feelings hurt easy.

If you do care about being here, hang in and be you. But you can't expect everyone to agree with you. :)
I shall reply to you in a PM as not to derail the thread.

[Ilphithra]

Glad you are here!!!

Hermaphrodite is a really antiquated term. Intersex is not a look and although I appreciate someone trying to infuse humor in an obviously stressful situation, I am certain Intersex is not a look but a gender that is akin to many of the things a transgender person goes thru. So please lets not poke humor at the expense of another gender that is struggling.
Hmm... I placed the word between quotes as I know it's not a "look". As for humor... it wasn't really humor... I'm really not adverse to the idea of having boobs + penis. Maybe the smiley makes it look like that but I honestly had no patience to go through the massive list of smileys to find a more toned down wink... :/

I totally get where you can feel this way about all the cons that you listed. It can be overwhelming to live a life in a body that doesn't match the mind and sometimes we find ourselves thinking and doing things to our bodies that can be construed as unsafe and not helpful in the long battle. I have run across many transgender persons that go thru periods of physical self hurt/mutilation. Is this what you are meaning???
Yes... the "madness" I speak about is when we fall to the deepest pits of horror in our minds and think of nothing but cutting off pieces of ourselves with a random kitchen knife (and sometimes end up trying/succeeding in doing it).

For this is nothing but a bout of madness overcoming us when we're overrun with the deepest loathe we can have for our own bodies.
I've been there... but I didn't get to the point of actually doing anything. I kept forcing myself to think this is the only body I have... I must keep it healthy instead of hurting it.

My way of thinking may be strange to some... but I primarily deal with things in terms of logic. Feelings are secondary to me and they play an extremely limited part in my life. That means that even if I hate my body, I stop myself from hurting it as it would be detrimental to me.








For those knowledgeable of MBTI... I'm an INTJ...

For those not knowledgeable: INTJ prioritizes logic and forgoes feelings and emotions in everything (with a few exceptions). INTJ are often hated due to how cold and uncaring they can come across to people.

[Ilphithra]

Oh i was much kinder than i could have been...there is blunt, and there is offensive, and although i don't speak for anyone but myself, i found the way you frazed things to be purposely offensive to many people here...and as it was your first post EVER, i felt the need to stick my nose in it.

To "me" it felt as though you came in here to stir things up a bit, and oh look, you've suceeded.

Sorry admins I'll back out, was trying to be nice.
You can feel offended all you want for all I care. You're the one being offended by the way I talk, I don't have to change how I talk to please you or anyone else.

I'm not PC and I don't bow down to peer pressures or mob mentalities. I'm me and whoever doesn't like it, feel free to stay away from me.

And believe me, I already tone down on forums. In real life, if someone appears to me looking like a clown, they'll get a "you look like a clown" on the face.

I was sharing my personal views, my personal experiences and being myself. You don't like it? Good for you, deal with it.

I wasn't out to offend anyone... if being myself offends people, well... that's their problem, not mine.

Just know that if you don't accept people as they are, you are just as bad as the bigots we're fighting.



I want to thank the person who directed me to this forum, you know who you are. Unfortunately, I don't change to fit what others want and I'm not PC and things won't work out in here. I will leave for the sake of not generating conflict among the forum users.

I'll leave by myself.

Best wishes to all.

[Medusa]

Ilphithra-

Let's make this easy on you since clearly it is a huge burden on someone with such a huge brain capacity to maintain an ounce of respect for people you don't even know.

I'm not impressed. Not impressed by your lamentations of self and not impressed by your inability to keep your cat turds out of the sand box. You think everyone here is stupid and that this community is a waste of time? Good, because it makes it easier to show your arrogant ass the door.

Good day!
Medusa
(idiot Admin of community of stupid people who just. dont. get. it.)

[DMW]

Hello to all,

As much as I would love to change my body, I'm someone who looks at things objectively instead of jumping the gun and doing some kind of madness such as trying to mutilate myself.

Yes, my body fitting the mental image I have of it would be nice... but I simply see no reasonable or safe way to do so. As such, I will take good care of what I have and live my life to the best of my abilities.
:

I am sorry that you are in so much pain. I realize that you have been timed out.
However, just in case you are still out there, I am going to put a short simple note out.

I considered my choice to have surgery very objectively, logically and reasonably. I went from the age of 16 to 33 thinking it over. So, I don't consider having surgery at 33 on," jumping the gun." Have to laugh at that one.:seeingstars:

In addition, i find it very Interesting and almost confusing that you view a personal body transformation as, "you trying to mutilate yourself" your madness.
I do understand being desperate for change and I do understand the idea
of going to extremes to make that change. Self mutilation is not a laughing matter.
Today there are healthy options. I pray that they become more accessible to those in need. For those of us that view transition as a positive evolution which brings one closer to "self ";how they define and see themselves to be.

I, for one, can say from my self transformation, or even using your words...
My self mutilation. I am beautiful for having done so, and so are all trans people.

Regards,
DMW

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

I think it's way past time to dust off this thread and give it a bump. I know when I first joined this thread helped me a lot. Back when I wasn't sure if I could medically transition and even when I wasn't sure I wanted to if I could afford it. It is helpful to know there is a place to go where you can vent, ask questions, get support and connect with other Bravehearts. So I am bumping this for the new guy and for the old timers that may have forgotten the thread is even though I no longer fit the description I still love this thread! I have been on T a year now and due to finances that may be as far as I will be able to go in my medical transition although I do want top surgery.

[AnAwkwardAccident]

I feel like I'm neither male or female but an odd mix of both. If i could choose what effects T would have on my body, I would be all for taking it...but since I don't have that ability....

As for binding - my chest is too big to bind, and my nipples are super sensitive...which is nice when I'm feeling feminine.

....if I could just deepen my voice and somehow either get a breast reduction or be flat chested with the same nipple sensitivity, I would be all for top surgery....*sigh*

[Kelt]

I feel like I'm neither male or female but an odd mix of both. If i could choose what effects T would have on my body, I would be all for taking it...but since I don't have that ability....

As for binding - my chest is too big to bind, and my nipples are super sensitive...which is nice when I'm feeling feminine.

....if I could just deepen my voice and somehow either get a breast reduction or be flat chested with the same nipple sensitivity, I would be all for top surgery....*sigh*

There are ways to investigate both of those options. Someone here was kind enough to turn me onto Neutrois.me (http://neutrois.me/) which was quite helpful in learning about a persons experiences with low dose T experimentation (http://http://neutrois.me/2013/02/18/testosterone-1-year/), and also that there is a kind of top surgery (http://neutrois.me/tag/top-surgery/) that will preserve what you want.

Keep looking around, you may well find the right mix of options for you.

[SimpleAlaskanBoy]

I am glad to see this group on this front page, I have been on T for quite a while and it's allowed me to accept my body, or at least I like it a little better than I did pre T. I will probably never be able to afford top surgery or a hysto and that's often hard to accept. I don't bind anymore, it hurt my scar tissue so I just said forget it.
Hope you all are having a good Saturday.
~SAB

[DJ4321]

for me, that would be when the braveheart would step in and I'd just be me

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

It's hard in this world to transition but can be even harder when you're not allowed to or choose not to transition. And want to be seen as the gender you truly are and heard as such. Since I know a few FTMs who have been stopped from medically transitioning (and one that has chosen not to medically transition), a support thread for those here on the BFP would be a good thing.

And I called it Bravehearts. I'm not a huge fan of Mel Gibson but to me, it takes a lot of heart and bravery to continue to move forward to present as male when the world has a narrow definition of gender.

Two years is far to long for this thread to be idle...IMHO
I am bumping it and quoting the first post from Linus to remind us the original purpose of the thread.
A little about my journey. Most of my life I lived in a section of the country that I still refer to as it being stuck in a time warp of the 1930s and to quote one of my best friends..."IL the hot bed of liberals NOT" To be fair to my hometown and state there have been improvements for our community at least legally, according to my 16 year old self proclaimed pansexual niece. Yet, once you leave her generation it is still dangerous to be anything but a white cis-male I kid you not. I say all this only because even though I knew at a very young age that I am male I am also a product of the hate and fear that was (is) a prevalent part of this area. So it took me a long time to tell anyone that I am a FtM well actually I now say I am a male born with birth defects. Doing that helps me with my body (gender) dysphoria and it has helped others in my life understand my transition as they also transtion.
Anyways, a few years back I had the opportunity to leave the Midwest and move to the PNW where it is much easier to transtion medically.
The last time I bumped this thread I had only been on T for a year and was still hoping to have top surgery. I have now been on T for around 5 years and for the first time my dose is being tweaked due to my increasing age. My hope of having top surgery was ripped from me two years ago after a very bad and negative reaction to having my spine operated on. I am now not medically able to complete my medical transtion. It has been almost two years since this occurred and it is still a bitter pill to swallow. It is hard to move backwards after such a long hard fight of moving forward.

[Lyte]

"Bravehearts: FTMs who cannot or choose not to medically transition "

What a kizmit subject line! Bravehearts ... it does seem so from what I've read recently ... elsewhere... on another site..

The question was asked to the FTM members of the other group whether or not they ever felt pressured to medically transition. Many said "yes." And... the pressure was coming from FTM who has transitioned and/or from lesbians. I was both surprised and disappointed! I was surprised because I didn't know such pressure existed and disappointment that this pressure was coming from those within our own LGBTQ community! WTH?!

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Sadly that is nothing new depending on your location and age. There is the other side as well FtMs that want to transtion but are pressured not to. Again by members of the community, the medical professionals that refuse to help, and let's not forget the bio-family.
For me personally I don't feel like a member of any group all because the decision to medically transtion was taken from me. Part of the community will always keep me at arms length, my experience,.Which can be a lonely life as well as a single one at least in my experience.
There is a difference between someone not being able to financially be able to transtion, has a medical condition that prevents the surgery from being done safely, and anyone feeling pressured to or not to transtion. The former should never have IMHO it equates to someone who you should love but instead it is gender and not sexuality

[DapperButch]

Loyalwolfsblade,

I read your two posts and I am trying to understand. You are saying that you are not able to get top surgery due to medical reasons? You said something about figuring it out during spine surgery. Is it an anesthesia thing?

I can't think of a medical reason that you couldn't get two pieces of fatty tissue and glandular tissue removed, so I am thinking they suggest you avoid "unnecessary surgeries" or something?


<---- not in the medical professional

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

Loyalwolfsblade,

I read your two posts and I am trying to understand. You are saying that you are not able to get top surgery due to medical reasons? You said something about figuring it out during spine surgery. Is it an anesthesia thing?

I can't think of a medical reason that you couldn't get two pieces of fatty tissue and glandular tissue removed, so I am thinking they suggest you avoid "unnecessary surgeries" or something?


<---- not in the medical professional

Dapper,
It wasn't an adverse reaction to anistea per say but the fact that a surgery to remove a thoracic disease from my spine at the T7 T8 level lead to three additional surgeries to have infections removed and cleaned. I had those surgeries in GA and when I retuned to the PNW I was advised that even though Top surgery was/is deemed medically necessary for me not to have it done. I now have to many health factors that make it dangerous. One obviously is the high risk of abcess (infection ) and I now have bilateral tumors on my adrenal glands as well as modular on both thyroids. So is just the spine surge preventing me from moving forward sadly no. However if I had had my current primary care doctor she would never had allowed that surgery to take place. Especially in the area of the spine they operated on, not a common area. I guess the bottom line is I am no longer medically strong enough to have Top Surgery.
I still take my T. I still don't think any surgery will make me more of a man than I already am. Yet, I do still grieve the body I deserve and am beyound tired of my gender/body dysphoria that bites me in the ass from time to time.
I also know that it is my perception that allows me to believe that I just don't fit into any part of society.
Believe it or not I do have good days this just isn't one of them. Thanks for asking Dapper.

[DapperButch]

Dapper,
It wasn't an adverse reaction to anistea per say but the fact that a surgery to remove a thoracic disease from my spine at the T7 T8 level lead to three additional surgeries to have infections removed and cleaned. I had those surgeries in GA and when I retuned to the PNW I was advised that even though Top surgery was/is deemed medically necessary for me not to have it done. I now have to many health factors that make it dangerous. One obviously is the high risk of abcess (infection ) and I now have bilateral tumors on my adrenal glands as well as modular on both thyroids. So is just the spine surge preventing me from moving forward sadly no. However if I had had my current primary care doctor she would never had allowed that surgery to take place. Especially in the area of the spine they operated on, not a common area. I guess the bottom line is I am no longer medically strong enough to have Top Surgery.
I still take my T. I still don't think any surgery will make me more of a man than I already am. Yet, I do still grieve the body I deserve and am beyound tired of my gender/body dysphoria that bites me in the ass from time to time.
I also know that it is my perception that allows me to believe that I just don't fit into any part of society.
Believe it or not I do have good days this just isn't one of them. Thanks for asking Dapper.

Damn, you have been through some shit. I'm sorry you can't get it done. I am glad you can hold onto the T. I hated my chest and hoped that top surgery alone was enough to fix my dysphoria. I got top surgery 3 years ago and planned to just continue to live as a very masculine female (I was read as male 85% of the time, anyway). I found that the top surgery just "wasn't enough" to dispel the dysphoria, and to continue to push myself into this "female" box just couldn't continue. I just had to see....and started on low dose T, to make sure it was "right for me". I quickly found out it was. I am now on T for two years. Name and all documents changed within 6 months of starting on T.

I have to tell you, that if I had to chose one or the other, I would choose T. Although I wake up EVERY morning and smile about my chest, it is the T that I needed for my emotional balance. I am saying that as a person who wore a tight binder, all day, every day, for about 20 years.

[LoyalWolfsBlade]

I think what T does or can do is the hardest thing to explain to others. It is not a magic bullet that will fix all problems, I tell the younger guys. However, for me taking it did help. Contrary to popular belief or stereotype I am actually an angrier person without being on T. I learned that lesson after moving to GA and not being on my T for that entire time. No doctor would prescribe it, stating it went against thier moral velief. A loophole in GA. So I have learned the value and importance of T however like everything else it isn't for everyone and it affects everyone differently.

[DapperButch]

I think what T does or can do is the hardest thing to explain to others. It is not a magic bullet that will fix all problems, I tell the younger guys. However, for me taking it did help. Contrary to popular belief or stereotype I am actually an angrier person without being on T. I learned that lesson after moving to GA and not being on my T for that entire time. No doctor would prescribe it, stating it went against thier moral velief. A loophole in GA. So I have learned the value and importance of T however like everything else it isn't for everyone and it affects everyone differently.

Right.






..

[Nadeest]

You didn't offend me. I simply considered it as your way of speaking.

[Nadeest]

No one should EVER be pressured to make such a decision! It is their body, and their life; therefore, it should be their decision alone.

[ProfPacker]

I have had a very hard year and am just getting some time to post about my life and where I am in my gender ID. I, as you all know, am not young in age, but in heart, mind and presentation. I have had an inordinate amount of stress this year which culminated in my being hospitalized the day before Thanksgiving with extreme chest pains and BP of 202/100. My blood pressure goes it's own way these days, even taking meds, when I am stressed. They found nothing wrong (which is good). I also have contended with healing an ulcer that was about to rupture (I had no idea it was even there) and a growth in my colon the size of a small orange that was removed but turning cancerous. In many ways I have dodged many bullets. I have chronic GERD and have changed my diet completely. My thyroid has gone wacky because of the stress and after 30 years on one dose of synthroid, I am all over the place and stabilizing it. I am now the long distance care taker of my sick sister, resigned from the stressful part of my job.

When life slaps me in the face, I tend to reflect and because I am an academic (research). I woke up to the fact that since joining the planet whenever trans info comes up, I am there reading every word. I look at trans porn and I read what I can. I have been packing (as most of you know) on and off for a while. A while ago I started to experiment with STP and find it very satisfying.

Last week after attending a gender ed training at work it began to occur to me (duh) that I am on the trans spectrum (where is what I am experimenting with). My dysphoria has always been my bottom, now this is my process and only pertains to how I do things.

I had started to do some research a while ago on the effects of DES on the offspring of the women who took DES (I was interested in the illness and mental health issues) because both my ex partner and sister (born 12 hours apart) both came from mothers who took DES and had the reproductive anomalies that are associated with DES and autoimmune illnesses and sever depression. I found a study in Sweden that is following long term effects of DES in daughters and bingo, it was all there. Now what you ask does this have to do with me being on the trans spectrum?

There is now evidence based studies that showed that sons of DES mothers (because of when the DES was administered in the pregnancy...2nd and 3rd trimesters) are more apt to transition to female. There is also many intersex individuals in mostly the sons because the DES was administered usually after the gonads formed but during the time that the brain was formed gender identification stuff (there is a whole new neurobiology on this...two aspects of sex and gender development and the XX and XY stuff is only a small amount.)

I began to wonder about daughters and my feeling that I am "missing something ...a cock and how strong it is). After doing more research there was a group that talked about the fact that because it was estrogen that was given the daughters did not experience gender confusion UNLESS the mother was given progestin (testerone, as well). I was in the first batch of US daughters in 1948 that was a recipient of my mother getting DES (my mother's doctor was one of the pioneers in the field). DES was given to mothers who had a chance of miscarrying and was given until 1971 even though the medical field knew it was not being effective). The daughters who were given progestin tended to have masculinized brains as the sons had feminized brains (it is seen on MRI and Pet scans). Last week I asked my mother is she was given estrogen along or two drugs (I was unsure because the research stated that the progestin was given in 1950). Because my mother's doctor was so big in the field he was able to "experiment" before the FDA gave the go ahead. My mother said she was given two vials (progestin and estrogen) and (if you can believe this) shot herself up during the pregnancy.

Now, this is not to demean or counter gender development and identification forming in the ways, just for me, I knew that DES effected us and it was an accident that I came upon this (I have had three surgeries due to fibroids, the last a complete hysto and a ruptured cyst).

I have decided, for now, to be open (not to my kids yet) in my gender trans no matter where it takes me. The most important part is feeling complete and having a cock. For now, I am packing with an STP and pumping. This seems to be fine now. I don't think I will ever go on T because (as you can imagine) I have fears about long term, unknown use of hormones, the fact that my body has not been too stabile and also like some other guys here have said I feel like I have two identities in me (that might or might not change as I have opened myself up a little more). I don't think for know I want to be known everywhere by male pronouns but would like to start "trying it on here and with close friends who introduce me or refer to me at butch femme events). I didn't talk to my mother about my bottom desires but talked to her about being masculine and wanting to explore it.

So, I want to present to the world as me and masculine of center for now, use male pronouns and females pronouns as I see fit.

The chest is another thing. I was born without my pectoral muscle on one side (Poland anomaly) and surgery would be much more than just removal or reduction because the chest would still be deformed and fixing it would take more work (expanders if possible...a prothetic made for my form to show a muscle, possibly taking skin from my abdomen for builidng up chest. That is why binding and sports bras have been a real help. My dysphoria had to do with missing the muscle not the breast per se. Also, on T, I would gain muscle mass and my chest and arm (it is smaller and shorter without muscle) would be destorted, even if I did go on T.

That's it, thanks for listening.

[StudMafia]

I guess in my case i wanted hormones to look
Older and more masculine. I was tired of looking
Like a 12yr old. But changing my body with surgery
Doesn't seem right for me. Im comfortable in
My own skin now at the age of 36.

Here from Los Angeles,
Chris F.:fastdraq:

[Jar]

I just found this thread, well after someone told me about it. I'll read through it when I have more time. Thanks Linus for starting it .. feels like it's right where I need to be

[Steele]

I'm always at odds with my gender. My doctor said it was best to hold off hormones until I get my mental health sorted out, and now that I don't have that pressure, I've begun to realize that maybe my body is fine, it's just society's perception of my body that makes me want to alter it. I hate it when my body is seen as feminine. But then again, why am I letting society's view of my body make me hate it?

[Jar]

I’ve only been on this job assignment for two weeks and the clueless woman next me just came back from lunch and said “it’s cold out there chick”. What? I mean what in the holy hell fuck!! There is nothing about me that says “chick”. It’s like she pushed some rage button and it feels like a burning ember in my gut. I immediately thought about this thread and knew it was the only place that anyone would understand this.