Open Letter: Dear Femme

[SuperFemme]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

And there ya have it. Neither of us could see who Blush was looking at when she expanded on that request; you assumed she was "looking around the room" at all the Femmes and asking Kosmo to be quiet; I assumed she was "looking around the room" and inviting participation not just from Kosmo, but from all the Butches and Transmen in the room--expanding her request, not limiting it.

Only Blush can say what she really meant. Again, if I am the only one who read her post that way, I apologize for derailing.

I hope that you can see that I was telling you, not what Kosmo feels--I don't have that right--but how the wording of your post made ME feel, and how it came across to me, a person who has been repeatedly silenced in discussions very much like this one.

I also hope that you will keep it in the forefront that I appreciate what you are doing in the creation and shepherding of this conversation, and I stand beside you in your goals for it. I just want it to be very clear who is and isn't welcome to post and to answer direct questions.

I fully admit that is my own issue. I. Hate. Conflict. This is NOT a "Good Girl" issue, nor any kind of socialization issue. It is because I am Empathic, which is a psychic skill; I cannot bear to watch people inflict pain on one another because *I* feel it every time. This is my issue; I own it. All I ask from you to help me stay in the conversation is clarity--which you have now given, thank you--about who is welcome to give opinions in the thread.

(((Bit))) I am not silencing you with the following post. I really LIKE you and want to gently tell you that there wasn't any conflict here. Boundaries? Check. Purpose of the OP being followed? Check. Silencing? No.

It's hard for *Me* to watch what is happening in this thread. We ARE as Femme's allowed to carve out a safe space to talk about ourselves and things unique to being Femme. About being seen as more than a supporter of all things Butch. It iis not unimaginable to ask butches or trans people to not opine on how a femme should be. Opinions are welcome but within the boundaries set forth.

What IS important here is that you speak for yourself. About yourself.
We are all here with open arms for that. Because often we don't get to do that.

I understand the empath thing. I am extremely empathic and have to work to shield myself. To not take on others feelings. That is hard work but well worth it.

e told you that she and Kosmo had much conversation behind the scene and nobody had hurt feelings. I don't feel like you heard that, and I hope you'll consider it. IF Kosmo had been hurt and/or there was conflict it is up to Kosmo to speak up, work through it and maybe learn in the process.

I had much trepidation about posting to you because you have said numerous times in this thread that you've been silenced a lot. I am speaking to you from both a gentle and loving place. I hope that shines through in what I am trying to say here.

[Medusa]

I just wanted to say a huge "Thank you" to everyone who offered support to me yesterday and today (pink socks!). I felt a tremendous rush of love and courage and have just sent my resignation letter.

I rewrote it several times so that I could check myself for anger, projection, and gross stuff and I feel like, with the love and support and suggestions from folks here, that I sent a resignation that is truthful, authentic, from my "me" place, and healthy.

I feel exponentially better.

Thank you all so so so much.

*exhale* :loveletter:

[blush]

My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes.

However, I'm certainly not seeking to be told by butches/trans what I (or femmes) can do to make myself "less invisible" or whathaveyou.

I, too, consider this space femme-based.

[Bit]

e told you that she and Kosmo had much conversation behind the scene and nobody had hurt feelings. I don't feel like you heard that, and I hope you'll consider it.

{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you for posting from a gentle place. I have also been doing my best to post from a gentle place.

The reason you feel like I didn't hear what e said about conversation with Kosmo behind the scenes is that I believe that no one has the right to speak for Kosmo which is, after all, the point here: if no one has the right to speak for us except us, then how can we turn around and claim the right to speak for anyone else?

I think that there were many ways to interpret Blush's post, and I think it's clear that Kosmo interpreted it exactly the same way I did. That might be a mistake in interpretation, but answering a direct request for information is not, I think, the same as someone "invading our space" so to speak. Yes, we have the right to carve out our space... but I believe we should be willing to accept that sometimes people interpret things differently--which to me is not the same as deliberately stealing our space.

In the end, none of us got it right anyway; Blush posted that she meant something different. *wry smile*

Does this make sense? Can you see my point?

I have no arguments with this thread being Femme space. I have no arguments with e and the way she is shepherding the convo. I appreciate what she is doing. I just needed clarity--which e provided--about who is welcome to post.

My intention was to open up the conversation to butches/trans as to what THEY can do in their mindset or interactions with femmes to change how WE are perceived. All members of this community are accountable for how femmes are perceived. It will take all of us to make changes.

Thank you for clarifying, Blush. I appreciate it. As you can see from my answer to Adele, I also interpreted your post as a request to Butches and Transmen to tell us what we can do to change the way we are perceived. I'm sorry for the misinterpretation.

[Lynn]

I realize that nothing is perfect, but I just want to say that every time I read a post on this thread (and on a couple of others), I just breathe a huge sigh of relief. I'm so grateful that we can have discussions about difficult, emotional topics, and still treat each other with respect and kindness. So, to you (all) from my mushy place, THANK YOU! This kind of open, honest, thoughtful discourse is, for me, the opposite of silencing. And, it goes a long way toward providing a space for me to "be"--and hopefully, it does the same for the collective you. Thank you!!

:rose:Lynn

[evolveme]

I'm taking this to everyone.

I see what I feel to be some interesting things happening here from a sociological perspective. I created a thread in which we could explore the ways in which feminine people are sublimated by the overall masculine-over nature of our communities, but I also had an eye toward the way in which we permit that subjection. How we, femme people, propagate it, as it were.

On one level, the conversation I've been having with Bit has been frustrating for me (not Bit, just the convo). I only meant to show that a butch person cannot and should not answer for us a question that can only be answered by us. This isn't personal, it is necessary. I saw Kosmo rewording Blush's question in such a way as to make it only answerable by femmes, and for me, this was an opportunity to speak to my point from the OP.

On another level, this conversation has been an important one because of what it might have revealed, and how it allows us to engage.

When we're in discussions over trans topics, I know that I hear transfolks saying, "Cispeople cannot tell us what we need to do to be understood/seen/etc. In order to be good allies, they need to listen."

I know that in the female-id'd butch thread, if any other id'd individual were to make a suggestion to them about them, they'd have a great deal to say to that poster. I think they have that right.

The bottom line here is that I want us to be as fiercely protective of ourselves as we have always tended to be of others.

It keeps coming up that perhaps I should have shut down this conversation to certain other individuals. It is not my intention to show anyone the door. I am not going to ask anyone to stay out of this conversation. I desire participation. I love every kind of voice there is. Bring the variation. But I will speak to masculine-centrism where I see it, and to old habits when they reflect masculine-over thinking. I believe there has been masculine-over thinking evident in this thread, and not just by masculine people. It's super important to me that we all look at this, at ourselves and one another and consider this syndrome.

Right now:

I want to know what the rest of you are seeing.

I want to know if all of you would prefer to hear the voices of everyone here (should they choose to participate), or only femme voices.

A lot of good questions about how we participate in masculine-centrism were skipped over pages ago. I hope more of you will think about those questions and answer them.

I've been thinking about those questions and will try to come back with some answers.

[The_Lady_Snow]

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

[blush]

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

Totally agree.

I certainly don't mind hearing from the "others," but this needs to be a femme-based space. As I said before, I'm mildly curious if these conversations the femmes are having are changing behaviors or attitudes with the "others," but I'm much more curious about our experiences and lives.

Bit, no worries! I re-read my post, and I wasn't clear.

[blush]

Truth with tact and timing is what I always think about when trying to work through something... I also ask myself several questions...especially when dealing with hurt or anger...

1. Who is the truth for?

2. Will they even hear it?

3. Is the purpose of telling the "truth" (because even truth is subjective, colored by our own perceptions of what the truth may be) to harm or heal?

4. Will telling the truth change anything for the better other than make me feel justified?

I have quit several groups in my life (and people) for many reasons. I seldom give a reason because I don't have to, or because I felt the ethics was not even there for them to even hear the issues. I have to admit that there are times when I have had to say, "ENOUGH" and moved on with as much self dignity as possible.

I think that we perceive that we have to justify our actions or needs...and we don't...just resign and leave with your head held high and your ethics clean and clear.

You go girl, and remember that you are powerful inside and that is what matters and stopping involvement is not a failure but an opportunity for growth and change. You can't keep pouring water in a full cup, it just gets messy, you have to empty it before you can refill it with another flavor. One that may be much more tasty!
I think femmes are "trained" to come up with an elaborate, bullet-proof reason for leaving or changing a situation. If the explanation doesn't satisfy the requirements of our audience, then we are expected act accordingly.

It reminds me of a Greek Chorus following me around.

In those situations, explaining may do one of 2 things:
-feeds their attention black hole (which may be why you're leaving anyway)
or
-subject your reasons to their judgment. They feel justified in telling YOU why YOUR reasons and YOUR choices are wrong.

I speak my truth when I need to. I don't speak it to satisfy others.

[Lynn]

I'm thinking about your questions, e, and considering my own reactions throughout the course of this thread.

Is it naive of me to think of this thread as some kind of separate, discrete space? I don't think so. Otherwise, why are there different forums and threads? Why can't I have the expectation that a discussion about femmes, for femmes, in a forum called "The Femme Zone," could be had WITH femmes?

I know that others are interested in this topic and supportive of the femmes they know and love. I don't mean to devalue that when I speak honestly and say that I don't think that has anything to do with the subject of femmes speaking about the femme experience. In this context, it becomes somewhat non-sequitor. Not wrong. Not mean, silencing, or anything bad. Just not related to the discussion that I perceive we're having. Of course, my perception isn't everyone's, and clearly, there are femmes who have a completely different viewpoint. It's not just *my* discussion, and I know that.

No one has ever asked me to respond to questions about being femme without also defining what that should mean to me. That, of course, leaves no room for my actual experience. It's really empowering and validating to have someone ask a question and then actually LISTEN to the answer. The validation comes from the sharing of experiences with others who can empathize because they've experienced the same things. Validation comes from just being listened to, with caring and understanding. That's my feeling about the beauty of this thread.

[Arwen]

While I do value the butch/trans/other input, I think that this needs to be for femmes and about femmes and by femmes.

It is not that I think a butch can not answer these questions. It is that I think femmes MUST answer them.

There can be no cheating on this test...if you will.

And I do view this as a test. Can I define myself in such a way that femme is not hip-joined (or other -joined) to who I am emotionally and physically attracted to?

Still working on it.

[KayCee]

*I* Snow a Femme person type, would love to have femme's speak for themselves and NOT take a step back and let or allow the butch talk on their behalf.. For me and this is just me- I don't think and I could be wrong that any butch can honestly speak for me, about me, and about what I experience...

I could be wrong though

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

[The_Lady_Snow]

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!


I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..:freak:

[Isadora]

The problem is IMO that we start asking in the first place...femme asks a question..butch answers..

..if we allow it..is another point!

I was wondering if you could clarify I am having a hard time getting this..

Are you saying that femme's should not ask questions?

Sorry it's one of those morning where my brain is just not functioning..:freak:

I don't get it either. Are you saying that only butches should answer femme questions? Or what Snow said? Or am I just...
dazed and confused, too.

[Bit]

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.

[SuperFemme]

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

[SuperFemme]

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

[Bit]

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".I think it's already been clarified, Adele. Multiple people have said in multiple ways, "please, no one speak for us; let us speak for ourselves," and I think probably everyone gets that now.

[SuperFemme]

I think it's already been clarified, Adele. Multiple people have said in multiple ways, "please, no one speak for us; let us speak for ourselves," and I think probably everyone gets that now.

Right, so in that vein, I think that it is FINE if a butch or trans guy responds. Not for us, not about us, but in support of us. Those are the lines that I think get blurred. I for one would LOVE to hear dialogue on ways butches and trans guys can be supportive. From their own mouths. And I am pretty sure that is welcome here.

[Apocalipstic]

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.

[SuperFemme]

Yes, I feel taken much more seriously since I have been in a relationship.
Wayyy more seriously.


Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

[Medusa]

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.


This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.

[Apocalipstic]

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

Totally. I went to one of the bashes by myself years ago and yes, I was extremely suspect, in fact, by the end the second day I was getting phone calls from Nashville full of news of my exploits (sexploits?). After that, I went straight back to my room and ordered room service alone each night. But there was talk anyway.

Add Cynthia to the picture and automatically I am accepted and somehow am even seen as prim and proper (as if!).

I remember when I met you, you were single and seemed lost in a sea of judgement. I so knew that feeling. I remember just hugging you at the Ball, I had no words to say to make it all better.

Anyone else experince this?

[Apocalipstic]

This is a big HELL YES for me. I have a noticed a huge difference in treatment from both Femmes AND Butches since being in a long-term relationship.

Sadly, I have also noticed that there is often a long memory for gossip and salacious drama.

I have been with Jackhammer for going on 5 years as well and yet, I had an interaction very recently with another Femme reminding me that "my past was colorful and that I had "been around". Nevermind the fact that I have dated exactly THREE people in 10 years. And it isnt even about the fucking numbers. If I had dated and fucked 50 people a month for the last 10 years, it still does not give someone the right to question my relationship status with Jack now or ever. Now, in this circumstance, I know that the person making the statements was making a shitty attempt to silence me with shame. Not so much on that for me anymore.

I even still hear people to this day questioning how the relationship with Jackhammer and I formed. I have had people gossip behind my back and even ask outright to my face "Weren't you both with other people?" as if to invalidate our relationship. I usually give the same spill when this happens:
"Although its nobody's business but ours, the answer is technically "yes". We both LIVED with our exes but had been BOTH been sleeping apart from our exes for a while (a year for me, three years for Jack). We had known each other for 6 years prior to that, we never cheated with each other. When we had the conversation about wanting to be together, we both immediately told her exes and proceeded to make arrangements to disentangle from them".

And just as a sidenote, this "disentanglement" cost me personally about $20,000 in home equity, multiple large personal items like a washer and dryer, furniture, pets, a riding lawnmower, and a vehicle that was in my exes name that was 8 months from being paid off that I had made the $2000 cash down payment on and paid every single payment on from day one that I just WALKED AWAY from. This was NOT something that I just flippantly did. It was a life decision with GREAT financial reprecussions and I still get angry when I think of all of the people who thought they had a right to make judgments on why I left and HOW I left. I also never went public with my reasons for leaving my ex, but it was assumed by most who were even peripheral that it must have been because I "cheated", that I MUST have done something wrong because I was, after all, a "liar", a "whore", a "slut", and a "golddigger". The "golddigger" part is *really* laughable since I worked 2 jobs the ENTIRE span of my last relationship.
(Incidentally, it cost Jack $30,000 cash and a year and a half in court to disentangle from her ex)

I dont mean to spew and want to make clear that none of these players are members here on BFP. The reason I give all of this background is because people who had never even set foot in my home started trying to tell me about my relationship. People who had never even held a conversation with my ex were just automatically "on her side" because of the things that they "thought" they knew about me. People who had ever had any kind of ax to grind with me came out of the woodwork like a bunch of cockroaches to befriend my ex in her "time of need", help spread vicious and untrue gossip about me, and take the personal information that my ex was telling these new "friends" of hers so that they could try to shame me, silence me, or make me feel like a pile of shit.

How this relates to the experience of being taken seriously is multiplied exponentially with all of my experiences as a single Femme, a partnered Femme, a married Femme, and a separated Femme. Intersect those identities with classism, sizism, and ageism and you have a melting pot of goo that wont quit.

Am I taken more seriously now? In some ways, yes.
I have noticed that my sexuality isnt taken as seriously on some level. Maybe because Im now "off the market permanently" or because Im aging. Who knows.

I will say that this is a brilliant discussion and I cant wait to hear more.


Been around???? What are we back in the 40's??????

Christ on a cracker.

I have been called a "golddigger" too. I am WAY more upset about that than pretty much anything I have ever been called. I don't think I will EVER get over that.

Yes I have been way wild, yes I have participated in way risky behavior, yes I am fat, yes I am 46, but I work really hard and always have and I am no fucking Golddigger *picture me screeching*

[SuperFemme]

Medusa! I can so totally relate.

What is it that makes others so judgmental? In my experience the people perpetuating stories had vested interest in always keeping the spotlight off of themselves and their fuckery.

When I see a Femme get together with someone I notice a lot of negativity. That person is not good for her. They won't last. Whatever the FUCK happened to support? I am thrilled when my friends are happy. I am rooting for them (unless they are with an verified abuser, in that case I will be concerned).

So I'm sorry that you went through that. It is so hard to ride out the storm and come out on the other side whole.

I'm speculating but I wonder if it helped both you and I that we got to ride out that storm with our best friends (read;partners). The difficult part for me was that I wanted/needed other friends too. Instead I was left with vultures picking the meat off my bones for the most part.

I hear you about the sexuality part. This kind of validates the conversation we are having in this thread. Sexuality is threatening when it is stand alone. It fucking scares people when Femmes own their sexuality and Butch's, Trans guys are perceived as more virile.

A Femme who does not fill the supporting role is an interloper.

What is our role as Femmes in this?

[SuperFemme]

Totally. I went to one of the bashes by myself years ago and yes, I was extremely suspect, in fact, by the end the second day I was getting phone calls from Nashville full of news of my exploits (sexploits?). After that, I went straight back to my room and ordered room service alone each night. But there was talk anyway.

Add Cynthia to the picture and automatically I am accepted and somehow am even seen as prim and proper (as if!).

I remember when I met you, you were single and seemed lost in a sea of judgement. I so knew that feeling. I remember just hugging you at the Ball, I had no words to say to make it all better.

Anyone else experince this?

Your kindness to me in Vegas helped me hang on. You give GREAT first impression and sometimes words aren't needed! I'd like to note that because I chose to not take any dates to Vegas I was accused of sleeping with several people whilst there. By the time the Ball rolled around a rumor was circulating that people had *searched* my suitcase in my room and discovered that my medication bottles were filled with vitamins and I was lying about having medical issues. Ummm? Seriously? Besides the fact that my meds were in my purse that whole thing was ridiculous. People gobbled it up and regurgitated it for years though. I was SO stressed that I had a seizure in the bathroom at the Ball which my friends held me through and sang opera to me.

Been around???? What are we back in the 40's??????

Christ on a cracker.

I have been called a "golddigger" too. I am WAY more upset about that than pretty much anything I have ever been called. I don't think I will EVER get over that.

Yes I have been way wild, yes I have participated in way risky behavior, yes I am fat, yes I am 46, but I work really hard and always have and I am no fucking Golddigger *picture me screeching*

You cannot win for losing. It has been said that I "buy my friends like Barbie". I pay to fuck. Laughable. On the other side of the coin? So what if I did? Whose business is it anyway?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.


Thanks Bit, I am hoping Kat comes in and answers though too..

Right. So do we need to clarify that in a clearly Femme id'd space? It seems tiresome to me to have to have a disclaimer of "only femmes answer me please".

So, how does this happen, why do butches answer for us when it's about us? Are we stepping back and letting it happen? Is it expected cause we are *femme* is this correct behaviour?

Has anybody here had the experience of being taken more seriously by both other Femme's and the rest of the community once you are in a long term relationship?

I am coming up on five years with Plato, and finally others have stopped acting like I am out to steal their honey. I personally never think twice about who Plato is around. If hy chose to cheat, that would be on hym. If it was a friend of mine? Same thing. It feels to *me* like there is a tendency to treat others as predators or some such thing.

When I was single I was labeled a slut. I kept hearing about people I'd had sex with. Sigh. Wish I"D BEEN THERE.

I am the soul sucking, will steal your butch, Lilith reincarnated why? I choose not to be in a long term relationship, *I* Snow choose to enjoy the fact I have a vagina and she loves to get fucked, *I* Snow have a big ol cock and oh yes I love to have it sucked clean.. *I* Snow do not like being tied down to one particular person, *I* Snow am sexual and have no qualms talking about how I like to fuck, wanna be fucked and will fuck. Though from the rumors you would swear I have fucked half the country.. Maybe sex scares some people, or maybe just those that are flapping their jaws are jealous? The world will never know..

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

No... No.. No... Do I enjoy the whispers and the pointing, when I was younger I was bothered, now I just raise my martini glass and smirk

Your kindness to me in Vegas helped me hang on. You give GREAT first impression and sometimes words aren't needed! I'd like to note that because I chose to not take any dates to Vegas I was accused of sleeping with several people whilst there. By the time the Ball rolled around a rumor was circulating that people had *searched* my suitcase in my room and discovered that my medication bottles were filled with vitamins and I was lying about having medical issues. Ummm? Seriously? Besides the fact that my meds were in my purse that whole thing was ridiculous. People gobbled it up and regurgitated it for years though. I was SO stressed that I had a seizure in the bathroom at the Ball which my friends held me through and sang opera to me.

oy vey, remember the rumor about how I was going to kill you that year?



You cannot win for losing. It has been said that I "buy my friends like Barbie". I pay to fuck. Laughable. On the other side of the coin? So what if I did? Whose business is it anyway?

Hey, you still owe me that Big Mac meal for our friendship.. Pay up damn it

[KayCee]

Snow, Isa, if I understand right, Kat is saying that we shouldn't be asking the Butches to answer questions about us in this thread.


Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

[SuperFemme]

I won't point out what an amazing person Snow is. Nope. I thought we had a deal on our friendship? If you love me for five years you get a Big Mac AND a Coke. If you love me for ten years you get a lifetime supply of ice. :football:

[Isadora]

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's not asking questions, it's about letting butches answer for or about us..that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

No problem. Thank you for clarifying.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks Bit!

Snow, Isa, I was actually quoting you, Snow and I totally agree with you. We need to speak up for ourselves and not let anyone answer for us..no matter who it is. It's not about femme's asking questions, .. it's about letting butches answer for or about us.. We don't need to question ourselves at all....that's what I meant.

sorry for confusion...

Thank you so much for answering Kat!! My brain is in low gear today along with my body

[SuperFemme]

Thank you so much for answering Kat!! My brain is in low gear today along with my body

My brain is missing pieces. I win!

[cara]

Me too! Did you ever feel others were suspect of you when you were single? Did you feel less visible? Less valued?

I have spent a large portion of my life single. Going to butch-femme events as a single femme is just plain HARD. So, now I have a love-hate relationship with the larger b-f events. It takes every fiber of my being to remain positive and not start self-hating at those events. I often do feel left out or suspect by others. I don't know that this is because I am projecting my own fears onto the situation or if people really are purposefully leaving me out. Maybe a little of both? Who knows.

On a totally unrelated note, I spend an awful lot of time responding to posts and never actually posting what I've written because I am fearful of offending someone or not sounding academic enough. So, in a way, I guess I'm silencing myself.

I'm working to overcome some of these irrational fears and reading the posts in this thread is very helpful and fills me with hope. You are all so amazing and insightful! Thank you for your support and words!!!

~cara

[SuperFemme]

I have spent a large portion of my life single. Going to butch-femme events as a single femme is just plain HARD. So, now I have a love-hate relationship with the larger b-f events. It takes every fiber of my being to remain positive and not start self-hating at those events. I often do feel left out or suspect by others. I don't know that this is because I am projecting my own fears onto the situation or if people really are purposefully leaving me out. Maybe a little of both? Who knows.

On a totally unrelated note, I spend an awful lot of time responding to posts and never actually posting what I've written because I am fearful of offending someone or not sounding academic enough. So, in a way, I guess I'm silencing myself.

I'm working to overcome some of these irrational fears and reading the posts in this thread is very helpful and fills me with hope. You are all so amazing and insightful! Thank you for your support and words!!!

~cara

(((Cara))) I felt left out in Vegas but I took a few good friends with me, so it wasn't so bad. I did feel disconnected though. You are probably not imagining that.

Your posts are great and do NOT need to sound academic. Promise. Just post what you feel and as long as you are not outright hating, it will be fine. I'm glad you find this thread helpful because you are amazing too! :awww:

[SuperFemme]

Give it a rest, FBG and go get me a cup of virtual tea.

Daddy June wants in on the Big Mac dealio. I can tell.
Pours a cuppa for Daddy to go with her virtual apple butter.

[little man]

i wanted to thank everyone who is participating in this thread. i'm finding much food for thought here. i appreciate the opportunity to learn to be a better ally. y'all seriously rock.

[blush]

Hmmmm...sounds like a new femme drinking game for the reunion...

Take a shot every time we hear a load of shit about ourselves or others?

We could call it Shooting the Shit.

[blush]

Well. We let them open our doors for us, buy our drinks and hold our purses, why wouldn't they think they could also speak for us as well? And you know, I am saying this tongue in cheek, but there is some truth to it too, I think. I have seen Femme's give their power away to their partners. Come to think of it, I've seen it happen in all kinds of relationships, but we're talking about Femme's right now.


I get your point, but I don't think allowing someone to open a door for me or show those "old school" manners means that I've handed over my power.

For me, it's a cultural way of showing respect. When Goof does it, it's one of his ways of taking care of me. Certainly it's not the only way, but it was the way I was raised, so it is familiar and comfortable to me. I actually feel more powerful with those manners because I feel like I am being deferred to.

[Random]

I so want to be a part of this conversation, but my nuerons are not firing.. So, I'm going to stop trying to craft this post into anything but the most basic of questions..

After reading some of the rummors that have been flying around for years (?) (I'm more than slightly self involved and am just hearing them now)


Why? I really want to know why people feel the need to tear each other down, spread rummors, tell lies, trying to make someone seem small, or petty... Why tear people down to make yourself feel important?

This is a question that has occupied my thoughts most of my life?

I pretty well walk through life with blinders on.. I have no clue as to what people think of me.. It's always such a shocker to find that not only has someone even thought of me, but that they put the time and effort into talking about me to someone.. Blink..

Last year I started talking to a butch that was friends of a friend of my LT ex.. Some of the things that he passed on to me.. ABOUT ME put me in a state of shock.. Why the hell was someone wasting their time and energy warning this butch about ME??? (Hell, all anyone has to do is read my posts for the last eight years and they will know just about everything about me..)

Apparently, I was a liar, a whore, a cheat, a horrible mother, a gold digger, wouldn't clean or cook,or hold down a job and spent all my time on the internet..

Amazing what you find out about your self from someone you have never met.

The friend of a friend of my ex's was a femme that while I never thought of as a friend, I didn't think of as an enemy..

I ask why... Why do we have to be catty and nasty to each other? I'm not talking snark.. or interpersonal relationships... I'm talking soul biting nastyness.. The kind that if you have a cricket in your head, she is screaming her lungs out at you while you try to sleep..

I don't want to hear about how no one does it... I know I did it twice when I was younger and my cricket was out partying.. I did it out of jealousy and envy... I also know that I wouldn't ever do it again..

I want to hear why you did it...

[Puplove]

I get your point, but I don't think allowing someone to open a door for me or show those "old school" manners means that I've handed over my power.

For me, it's a cultural way of showing respect. When Goof does it, it's one of his ways of taking care of me. Certainly it's not the only way, but it was the way I was raised, so it is familiar and comfortable to me. I actually feel more powerful with those manners because I feel like I am being deferred to.

I agree with this - for me, I hold the power to decide to allow someone to open a door, get me a drink, etc. (it's not always a butch/femme situation, I like to do the same for other folks when it would be a nice, friendly, non-patronizing thing to do). I love receiving these compliments in that spirit of respect, and I am more powerful for complimenting them back with my acceptance.

However, if I wait for a butch or anyone else to speak/do something for me because I feel afraid or if I believe that someone won't like me or won't think I'm as cute if I show I have a brain and speak for myself, I just handed over every ounce of self and power to another. (does not apply to when I don't speak up etc because I have chosen to be in that dynamic with another).

And considering what Cara said about not posting - I also often do not post in serious threads because others either say what I would have said before I get caught up in the thread and the point has been made, or because I feel I can learn a lot more from listening/reading rather than thinking up what I want to say. Maybe I silence myself, but I don't see it that way.

P.S. About being academic enough - to me, the more academically something is said, the less effectively and meaningfully it gets communicated. Simple is powerful.

[apretty]

Well. We let them open our doors for us, buy our drinks and hold our purses, why wouldn't they think they could also speak for us as well? And you know, I am saying this tongue in cheek, but there is some truth to it too, I think. I have seen Femme's give their power away to their partners. Come to think of it, I've seen it happen in all kinds of relationships, but we're talking about Femme's right now.


i bolded this portion because it was something that i was going to speak to on the 'exlusion' thread: femmes who defer to all things "butch", those that aggressively hand over their power as if subjugating herself were an art form (newsflash: that's totally weird).

[Arwen]

i bolded this portion because it was something that i was going to speak to on the 'exlusion' thread: femmes who defer to all things "butch", those that aggressively hand over their power as if subjugating herself were an art form (newsflash: that's totally weird).


I think it may be weird if it is not a known TPE (Total Power Exchange) relationship. I've been in those (with bio males and butches). Giving up the power is freeing on one hand but there is a loss of self if you and your Dominant are not careful.

I've seen some seriously kick-ass strong femmes in these relationships. They are not doormats. As someone else said (Snow?) those submissives were some of the strongest women I've ever known.

And I have also seen what the negative side of that turns people into--grasping, clinging, whining, can't make a decision to pee or poop by themselves. It's ugly. And there's no saving those types from themselves. They will keep going back to that type of relationship until they wise up and grow the spine necessary.

I know. I used to be one.

[apretty]

I think it may be weird if it is not a known TPE (Total Power Exchange) relationship. I've been in those (with bio males and butches). Giving up the power is freeing on one hand but there is a loss of self if you and your Dominant are not careful.


ah, you're right and i wasn't clear--i meant to speak specifically about a femme who isn't necessarily connected in any way to the butch she's deferring to. but good point on the TPE.

[Bit]

I've had people get so irritated with me because I truly believe that if I am a Femme (And I am) and I am fucking someone other than a Butch, I don't lose my Femme card and become Bi, Straight or, um, other? I am a Femme, regardless.

EXACTLY.

In my world, Femme is neither what we wear nor what we do--nor whom we do. Femme is who and what we ARE. Nobody--N O B O D Y--can take it away from us.

No, wait. It was the time I said that anyone who sleeps with me is Queer. That pissed a lot of people off.

Omg, you're kidding! They didn't get that?!

Well, I suppose the context might make a difference on that one, come to think of it.... if I said that to a Transman, I don't think it would necessarily sit well, cuz yanno, Man + Femme does not equal Queer unless the Transman himself already identifies as Queer. But anyone else I might sleep with? Hell YES it would make them Queer to sleep with me... that's the societal definition of Queer, two females having sex, and I am definitely female--so YEAH, if other female-bodied people sleep with me, it means they must be Queer, whether they were before or not.

I'm picking up this undercurrent in your post, June, please correct me if I'm wrong... but this statement about people being Queer because they sleep with you, it's about power, right? It's about the subtle perception that only Butches, being masculine, have the power to claim sexuality, to "make people Queer" through sex? Am I reading you right that people were angry because they saw you "usurping" that masculine power?

If I'm reading you right, THAT is most definitely not only masculine-centric but also male-centric, since it would be derived from the cultural idea that sex belongs to males and females must neither initiate nor enjoy it.

Overthrow that stereotype! Claim that power, Sister Femmes! Viva la toaster oven! :cheesy:

[Bit]

Cara, hon, I wanted to answer you specifically.
On a totally unrelated note, I spend an awful lot of time responding to posts and never actually posting what I've written because I am fearful of offending someone or not sounding academic enough. So, in a way, I guess I'm silencing myself.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Cara}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I have been there, I have been there, I have been there. It is a most uncomfortable feeling for me, yanno? Usually it's a fear of offending people, although sometimes when a convo has been strongly academic I have thrown up my hands and walked away because I just haven't been able to muster up the energy to .......omg, I just almost said "compete" when I meant to say "participate"!!

That pretty much tells me about the threads where I have run into that--none on this site, btw--but oh, how telling!

Well, anyhow. What I mean to say to you is start slow. Take baby steps. Your post here is a marvelous start, very courageous. Speak from your heart, darlin, and the more you do it, the easier it will get.

Sometimes a person just has to break through that fear barrier one step at a time. Soon enough, you won't be silencing yourself any longer. :bouquet:

[SuperFemme]

Anybody I have ever slept with is Queer. Mind you I have four kids. Why are they Queer? Because when I give myself or take somebody else I am doing so a a Femme. I don't care if it is a transman, a bio-man, the Fed-Ex guy/girl, or that one nun from high school. The act of fucking ME is also an act of queering the other person. I'm not a heterosexual. I'm not straight. When I hop into bed it is not as a straight woman, but rather a Queer Femme. So. I don't care if my fellow fuckee is a straight identified transman or any variety of man. They are engaging in a homosexual act.

Luckily there is only one person whom I fuck. I consider hym to be faggy. :girleating:

[evolveme]

I love y'all, and I think I understand why some of you share this conceptualization around queering others by virtue of fucking them, but it doesn't work for me, and here's why: Although I hold an identity as queer lesbian (femme is my gender) my sexual orientation is more accurately pansexual. It would not work for me whatsoever if by having sex with a straight leaning male-identified fella, a straight heterosexual transman, or a straight bio male that any of these folks decide I were "straightened out" by the act of sex with them.

I think we have the capacity to affect one another on all kinds of levels when we engage this way, but never in the way that we identify, unless that mechanism is not held consciously by us.

See, if it's an act of taking back power for us to say that anyone who fucks me is queered by me, then I feel that power was artificial in the first place because it cannot work both ways. If it only works for me, and not him, then it's a lesser power. He'd think of it as trite, possibly.

I don't want a trite power. I want a whole one.

:stillheart:

[SuperFemme]

I love y'all, and I think I understand why some of you share this conceptualization around queering others by virtue of fucking them, but it doesn't work for me, and here's why: Although I hold an identity as queer lesbian (femme is my gender) my sexual orientation is more accurately pansexual. It would not work for me whatsoever if by having sex with a straight leaning male-identified fella, a straight heterosexual transman, or a straight bio male that any of these folks decide I were "straightened out" by the act of sex with them.

I think we have the capacity to affect one another on all kinds of levels when we engage this way, but never in the way that we identify, unless that mechanism is not held consciously by us.

See, if it's an act of taking back power for us to say that anyone who fucks me is queered by me, then I feel that power was artificial in the first place because it cannot work both ways. If it only works for me, and not him, then it's a lesser power. He'd think of it as trite, possibly.

I don't want a trite power. I want a whole one.

:stillheart:

I feel one hundred percent whole in my power because the act of queering for *me* has always been consensual. Every. Single. Time.

I discuss before I leap, because I am sick and fucking tired of the world at large identifying me by whom I fuck. Nobody gets to do that to me.

Now I must confess I have had dialogue with those who would not consent with me, nor I with them. No clothes were removed after the dialogue.

The power within me is to remain Queer because it is who I am.

[evolveme]

I discuss before I leap, because I am sick and fucking tired of the world at large identifying me by whom I fuck.

This rather relates to what y'all were discussing before in the way a femme's (and I would say, a feminine person's) agency shifts when she is single. Aspersions are cast, rumors are flung, assumptions run like flood waters. She is identified by both who she is fucking and who she isn't (i.e., who it is assumed she is fucking).

I love that you've made your queer a conscious conversation. This is so important, perhaps especially for women. Sometimes, this has been true for me as well. But either way, it can never be negated. I don't need it to be true for anyone else. I don't have to make it true for them for it to remain true for me. Queer has less, these days, to do with who or how I've fucked than how I think.

I believe we're more alike that way, and in most ways, probably, than we could ever be different. And that is the reason, after all, that I found a home in femme. Why my queer is centered here.

:heartbeat:

[Isadora]

Being femme is part of my internal identity. It is who I am not who I date. It is part of my locus.

I am unique unto the world, as is everyone one of us. Like most people searching for community we are thrilled when we find family, then more than a little disappointed when the "family" is different or does not live up to what I expected. Sort of like "Yay, I found b/f, my people! There are tons of people out there just like me!" Then "OMG, there are republicans, meat eaters, liars, femmes in tennis shoes, bullies, butches with long hair, crazies, players (fill in the blank) and people who don't like each other."

The other part I think I need to remind myself about is that disagreeing with you does not mean I don't like you. This leap is taken way to often. I may not agree with your politics, your sexual expression, your gnat size brain, your sense of humor but it does not mean I don't like you. I am amazed at the times I get "I don't think she likes me." People. Really. :4femme:

If I don't like you I ignore you cause I am old and cranky and I don't like wasting my time on you. A very wise woman once told me, "Deb not everyone is going to like you and you are not going to like everyone. So, just accept it and be yourself." :rant:

The older I get the less I like people speaking FOR me. Anyone. Femme or Butch. I speak for myself, I am a big girl I can also handle being questioned or asked for clarification. I still speak for myself, not my gender, not my race, not my community, not my relationships...I speak for me. I don't appreciate, any more, any other form of being. Keep your damn self off my words and just ask me what I meant, don't interpret for me or assume. Sometimes I may ask someone to speak for me but I get to choose who that is for me. All this said, after all I am a hothead Aries, let me think about it before I answer. Give me a little time. I, also post with trepidation sometimes, because people assume they understand and react rather than think. :deepthoughts:

I evolve. I change. I listen, think and review my own beliefs, actions and thoughts. Just because I said it five years ago in a middle of a post does not mean I have not transformed into a new thought pattern. Jeeshhh, people change, ideas change, priorities change, life changes, I change. Be pretty damn sad if I didn't. I am not the same person I was 10 years ago, I am not the same person I was five months ago... :overreaction:

[Bit]

..... It would not work for me whatsoever if by having sex with a straight leaning male-identified fella, a straight heterosexual transman, or a straight bio male that any of these folks decide I were "straightened out" by the act of sex with them.

.......See, if it's an act of taking back power for us to say that anyone who fucks me is queered by me, then I feel that power was artificial in the first place because it cannot work both ways. If it only works for me, and not him, then it's a lesser power. He'd think of it as trite, possibly.

I don't want a trite power. I want a whole one.

:stillheart:

Julie, these are my first thoughts and I'm not sure I answered everything you said in this post.... heck, this might even be a tangent, but it's what came to me.

Femme is at the bedrock for me. It's what kind of energy flows through this body to express this soul. It's NOT my sexuality--it's my gender.

Queer is my sexuality as well as my community. So yes, if I have sex with another female-bodied person, the very act of two females having sex together is Queer and it doesn't matter what the other person claims, Straight, Bisexual, Lesbian---if they're sleeping with ME, a Queer Femme (dating, or in a relationship--not talking about the merely curious straight woman who dabbles and is gone), then they're Queer in some way. If they weren't before, well guess what, they are now.... just as I was when I started sleeping with my first partner, even though I insisted LOUDLY I was still straight.

NOT, I say to that long-ago girly. NOT. *wry smile*

I'm not creating this Queerness in another person, yanno? It's already there or they wouldn't be having sex with me, just as it was already there in me or I wouldn't have been so wildly in lust with my ex. BUT what I responded to in June's post was the community reaction to the idea that a Femme might--or even could--own the power of sexuality enough to Queer someone. That's the Butch's province according to the unthinking assumptions prevalent in our society; Butches get to claim the toaster ovens for converting/Queering other females, because Butches are most like men and sexuality belongs to men. According to this unconscious idea, Femmes have no right to claim such things--and June ran smack up against that wall.

It was that unthinking masculine/male-centrism in the community that I was responding to.

Does that explain my point better?

[Bit]

It's all good until I read one of your posts backwards, June. Just ask Blush. :cheesy:

[Gemme]

People suspect me all of the time, in regards to being viewed as a threat because I am/was single. *shrug* I think that I have a light-hearted and flirtatious energy about me (most days). I guess some people see that energy as blood-sucking or nest-robbing or whatever kind of energy would seep into their happy little homes and turn things upside down.

I have never overstepped my personal boundaries with someone else's butch. Of course, that doesn't mean I haven't overstepped THEIR personal boundaries. But the truth is, if something like that were to happen, you can't steal another away from someone. They walk, skip or run away on their own. I'd guess it's just pure meanness, fear and insecurity eating away at their trembling little hearts that causes them to feel the need to spew their venom.

I might or might not feel a bit touchy about this topic.

[SuperFemme]

People suspect me all of the time, in regards to being viewed as a threat because I am/was single. *shrug* I think that I have a light-hearted and flirtatious energy about me (most days). I guess some people see that energy as blood-sucking or nest-robbing or whatever kind of energy would seep into their happy little homes and turn things upside down.

I have never overstepped my personal boundaries with someone else's butch. Of course, that doesn't mean I haven't overstepped THEIR personal boundaries. But the truth is, if something like that were to happen, you can't steal another away from someone. They walk, skip or run away on their own. I'd guess it's just pure meanness, fear and insecurity eating away at their trembling little hearts that causes them to feel the need to spew their venom.

I might or might not feel a bit touchy about this topic.

My sweets, happy homes don't spend time worrying about who their honey is going to be tempted by.

You. Me. Cal. Naked Twister any time!

[Gemme]

My sweets, happy homes don't spend time worrying about who their honey is going to be tempted by.

You. Me. Cal. Naked Twister any time!

Sorry, I forgot to post it in the sarcasm font. :winky:

Really?!? :eyebat:

I am SO up for that if you mean naked as in "wear anything you want as long as it slides well in jello".

<--- not evolved enough to not worry about ass dimples

[blush]

I know, Blush. And that's the way it should be. But have you ever had someone shove you out of the way to open the door? Or be surly because you did it yourself? I have.

Hmmmmm. I love the ways we take care of each other, as long as it is not insinuated on me. And I never assume, either. Although I will admit to being a brat sometimes and standing next to a closed door with an annoyed look on my face, but again, with my partner, and I am having fun with her. I like how she "Jumps to it" ;)
Yeah, we've all had those experiences, but that doesn't make me throw the baby out with the bathwater. If anyone was ever surly with me, that would be the last time they were allowed to open a door for me, yanno?

[evolveme]

In my house, I have a policy called Straight Up. It is essentially our golden rule. It’s that important. You show the utmost respect by being straight up, and if someone asks you, “Straight up, answer me this…” then you must, absolutely must, honor it with the whole truth. To defy it would be as bad as a physical slap in the face. What I need more than to have my feelings assuaged is to be forthright and to have forthrightness in return. It’s how I continuously learn from all of you, and from my family. It’s what I have to give in return. Not roses and hearts and a virtual tea setting but your truths for my truth.

So here (in this thread), I’ve struggled because although I want all of you to feel my genuine and deep gratitude, my love for you as people I know to be intelligent and wise and just fucking beautiful, I also worry that I am, as per usual, going to come across as overly aggressive in my positions on issues. I worry if being seen as hard or insistent will mean that my voice isn’t heard or that my words are dismissed, or that I am dismissed because of my words. I can’t know any of that, but I’ve grappled enough hours with myself to know that speaking my truth outweighs that worry. I’ve gotta come straight up or not at all. I owe it to all of you, and I owe it to myself.

So, here we go:

Well, I suppose the context might make a difference on that one, come to think of it.... if I said that to a Transman, I don't think it would necessarily sit well, cuz yanno, Man + Femme does not equal Queer unless the Transman himself already identifies as Queer. But anyone else I might sleep with? Hell YES it would make them Queer to sleep with me...

Although I understand why you draw a distinction for transmen in this (because to queer a transman without consent might be invalidating and erasing and thereby a transphobic act), it’s still problematic for me because to set him aside as a ‘special class’ from everyone else is to say:
*I hold you with kid gloves because you really aren’t like everyone else*.
*Your self-determined heterosexuality is more special/different than a cis-sexed male’s and so I’m going to protect you.*

I think this is a real slippery slope, and quite possibly a furtherance of the kind of invalidation they too often face. Does that make sense?

And because, as I said earlier, I don’t want it done to me, I will not do it to ("queer by fucking") anyone else. Not a straight cis-sexed man, not a heterosexual transman, no one. I think doing so has the power only to erase and invalidate someone else’s identity and we’ve all fought too long and too damn hard for the right to claim ourselves than to be guilty of attempting to dismantle anyone else’s identity. No, a straight guy cannot “straighten” me out. The idea is laughable, but I cannot queer him. It’s an empty power. It fails to satisfy my desire for egalitarian gender relations.

No matter how you slice that kind of power, it cannot come to equal parts.


It is about Personal Power, yes. And to me (posting back to evolveme here as well) as a Queer Femme who makes mutually beneficial/agreed upon decisions about who she fucks, my Personal Power is not up for negotiation. No, I will not identify as straight to validate you. No, I will not identify as straight to help you pass. I am not straight, and I am not pretending to be so. Ever.

I absolutely understand this, and I see how the strong need to be heard around it arises. I will not accept any masculine or other person usurping my power ever again. She or he may only take what I offer up to them on the altar of my own personal power exchange, but no more. I get how it can feel like yet another means of coloring us invisible when a partner impresses upon us her or his need that we be straight, look straight, act straight. (Funny that we’re alternately accused of these things, then how they are demanded of us by some.)

I’ve watched femmes being told not to wear certain kinds of clothing and jewelry or you know, bird feather and tropical flower embellishments in their hair, because it screamed “I’m Here and I’m Queer Femme” which made a guy feel uncomfortable with the way he needed to be seen. I don’t have the answers to those tricky issues; they are for couples to grapple with themselves, but I do see how it can be invalidating to a femme who experiences invisibility. I also see how wearing queer visibly could potentially invalidate a transguy who no longer wishes to be read as queer. Therein the tricky wicket. I disagree, however, that this is always and necessarily about the concept of masculine-centrism. Trans(male) issues are tender and bitterly tough. There are some real similarities between our (femme and trans) invisibility such that I would never negate their experiences simply because they are masculine and masculine must always equal enemy. That isn’t my position and I hope no masculine person reading this thread has read me as believing such.

And also, just to clarify. The Transmen I know, are male to me, regardless of bits, but I do look at them differently and "feel" them differently than say, my ex-husband.

Since I’ve already opened the door, I want to speak to this. When we say to/about transmen that they are different than cis-men, that they “feel” different, even if our intentions are pure and good, we are very possibly negating and erasing Who They Are. And that is never good. To say “you are male to me” only throws an ugly light on what we want not to do, which is to set them apart. It suggests that there is really something else going on there, but you know, I’m cool, so I get them.

June, you and Bit are two women that I fucking admire, respect and adore. I see how your voices are incredibly influential in this space. I speak to these issues with you here because it matters, and because I believe both of you are willing to listen and engage in ways that are more open than we’ve seen elsewhere. I believe we, as feminine people strongly need good allies, and that our allies need to understand that old language is no longer useful to us, that it no longer serves us in the ways we once allowed. I also believe that we have to be the best allies we can. That’s why, in this post, I’m speaking the same truth to transmasculine issues. Sometimes, it’s just too easy to miss this stuff, because, you know, it’s not *our* stuff.

It’s not my intention to divert the thread, but it’s important to me that when we name the ways we choose to take back our power, or call for the ways in which we need support, we are careful not to create a dichotomy that wouldn’t work if flipped. I want a balance of power; I chose equanimity. I have to be willing to look at all of the ways that my own employment of power affects the world around me first.

Okay, big breath.

I’m ready for better and more true conversation. Even if it’s hard. Even if it hurts me a little. Especially if it learns me anything good. :)

[Random]

If I am out of line.. then please let me know..

Cause this has been on my mind since i started reading this thread.

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

Since I started reading this.. There is about five pages dedicated to talking about our partners. Is that all there is to us? Is all we are between our legs and who we partner with? Can Femme's not have a discussion without bringing butches, cis-guys, transmen into it? I have been reading the butch thread and guess what? we arn't the focus...

Am I wrong? Am I just seeing this because it's something I have to fight against all the time.. Internally.. Once I am partnered, I fight against becoming a two headed monster.. With my partner's head being the biggest and most predominate..

If I am out of line, or having tunnel vision, please let me know... Right now I am in transition.. Trying to be more than Mother, more than Partner... And it's hard as fuck. For me.. I have an image of what femme is stuck in my mind.. and that is sure as hell not me.. Unlearning this programming is so very important...

I'm not the donna reed, suzi homemaker, dress up doll that I see in my head.. I'm not some sweet submissive... I'm not a woman who's world revolves around her partner..But that's what is in my head... That is what I've allowed to be planted there.. If I am not that.. then I couldn't be femme, I'm not *enough* That is what I am trying to reprogram..

[Bit]

Cyn, we can talk about that image in your head---I struggled hard with it too, and I'm willing to bet all kinds of posters in this thread have dealt with it--but for right now I really need to answer Julie, because this goes to who she and I are, both as Femmes and as members of the community. Forgive me this post on it please?

Although I understand why you draw a distinction for transmen in this (because to queer a transman without consent might be invalidating and erasing and thereby a transphobic act), it’s still problematic for me because to set him aside as a ‘special class’ from everyone else is to say:
*I hold you with kid gloves because you really aren’t like everyone else*.
*Your self-determined heterosexuality is more special/different than a cis-sexed male’s and so I’m going to protect you.*

Straight up, Julie: I do NOT sleep with biomales. Not ever, not under any circumstances. (Made that mistake once, done with it forever.) I only included them in the hypothetical example because you did, and I was trying to answer you in kind.

I am Queer. For me, that means I do not sleep with straight men.

Would I make an exception for a Straight-Identified Transman if I fell in love with him? Yes. But it would BE an exception and he would HAVE TO accept me as a Queer both in my sexuality and in my community for us to have a healthy relationship.

Most of the Straight-Identified Transmen I have known didn't want to do that. That's completely understandable; I tried to change who I was for a couple of them, I tried to force myself to be straight and it didn't work--so why should I expect them to try to not be straight?

Queer-Identified Transmen, on the other hand, are my cuppa tea. Neither of us has to change, just as when I am with a Butch, neither of us has to change. We are both Queer together, and that is as it should be for my good mental health (and presumably for theirs too!).

I am not Pansexual, but Transensual... I define that to mean that I am comfortable in all ways including sexually with Transgendered Butches (for example, the ones who are Third Gender, Two Spirit, or Gender Queer) and Queer Transsexual Men.

About the kid leather gloves... There is an early stage of transition that is common to many Straight-Identified Transmen where they have an intense need to "Straighten" the Femme they are with because they need to see themselves as completely Straight. When that stage hits--I call it a stage because I've seen many Transmen come through it and relax considerably, afterwards--then a Femme cannot win for losing unless she is TRULY happy about sleeping with biomales, because nothing less will do to prove to the Transman that he is not "different."

Well, hello. MY being Straight (or not) does not prove anything about someone else's identity. And straight up--no pun intended--a Transman IS different. I happen to like the difference; most of the Transmen that I have known deplored the difference. Given those opposing attitudes, supporting them can be fraught with difficulties, and the only way I have found effective in dealing with those difficulties is kid leather gloves.

Does that mean I think Transmen are weak? Not no, HELL no. Transmen are some of the strongest beings on the planet. They just happen to bear really heavy burdens that call for extra consideration.

They'd treat me with the same gentleness and consideration if I needed it. Many of them have over the years.

And because, as I said earlier, I don’t want it done to me, I will not do it to ("queer by fucking") anyone else.

You CANNOT.

It is not possible for anyone to "make" someone else Queer.

I think you must have missed my last post on it, where I said that I know I cannot make anyone else Queer, that it is already inside them--or not. June and I were talking about the stereotype that equates sexual power with men, and thereby with Butches---and refuses it to women and thereby Femmes. We were talking about the wall she slammed into when she claimed that sexual power even in a discussion, even as a stereotype.

It is absolutely impossible to MAKE someone else be Queer.

Or Straight.

It's just not ever gonna happen.

:stillheart:,
Cath

[blush]

If I am out of line.. then please let me know..

Cause this has been on my mind since i started reading this thread.

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

Since I started reading this.. There is about five pages dedicated to talking about our partners. Is that all there is to us? Is all we are between our legs and who we partner with? Can Femme's not have a discussion without bringing butches, cis-guys, transmen into it? I have been reading the butch thread and guess what? we arn't the focus...



I was thinking the very same thing. Why is it that we are most articulate about our relationships and our partners?

[Arwen]

I want to talk about the femme experience. I want to talk about what it means to other femmes.

[snip]
I'm not the donna reed, suzi homemaker, dress up doll that I see in my head.. I'm not some sweet submissive... I'm not a woman who's world revolves around her partner..But that's what is in my head... That is what I've allowed to be planted there.. If I am not that.. then I couldn't be femme, I'm not *enough* That is what I am trying to reprogram..

I get so wrapped up in the unwrapping
That I sometimes forget the box
If I am a gift to myself--femme
What is under the ribbons, the bows--
The carefully chosen wrapping--
Each piece of me someone else's
Or are all the parts of those--me whole?

I couldn't write that out in regular sentences and I apologize. It's how I communicate sometimes.

I think....maybe...for me...that the different "roles" I've chosen ARE my femme experience. And that is not going to be yours or yours or yours or any of yours....same reality.

Femme, for me, is this woman who dresses to please herself. Who feels her body is her own in thigh highs and diving shirts. In blue jeans and t-shirts that are stained and dirty.

Femme, for me, is this woman who expresses things held to be "girly" with delight and no damned apologies.

Femme, for me, is this woman who can create pictures from words and write about romance and sex unabashedly and unashamedly.

My femme is not your femme and never will be. My femme may like to sit on the couch and ask for a foot rub. My femme may like to give foot rubs. My femme IS defined in some part by my attraction to butches.

I can not get around that or away from it. I'd still be femme if there were no butches, but that's kind of a silly, grandiose statement in my view.

I, after reading so much here, am beginning to feel frayed and frazzled as if my femme is not enough or maybe too much in the eyes of other femmes. And I know that's not true. I'm just speaking my own truth here and now.

So I think that for this femme--my femme experience is the total sum of all my labels and roles and expressions and lovers and femme friends. I don't think I can effectively unravel this present I am to myself without losing some of the pieces.

I do love that others can do this. I am learning so much in this thread. Thank you to everyone who has posted here.

[Lynn]

In this discussion, I'm still trying to untangle my identity as a woman from my identity as femme. I am a proud, fierce lesbian who reveres women of all orientations and types. I'm not talking about sexual attraction, only. I'm sexually attracted to butches, but, truthfully, there are women of all types who slay me. I remember that I had trouble reconciling my lesbianism with my own way of being. I'm now comfortable being feminine both in appearance and in my inner view. But, there was a time when I had trouble accepting this, as a lesbian. FEMME is where being a feminine woman and being a lesbian intersect, for me. Realizing and embracing my attraction to butches was a completely separate process from recognizing that "femme" was an aspect of my identity.

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to articulate something that I am just figuring out here.

[Bit]

Yikes! *hands the TX Self a bottle of Fray-Chek* :cheesy:

If I have played a part in the frazzled fraying, I'm sorry. I'm pretty analytical with things which fascinate me, and I can separate out intellectually those things which are not separate in life.... I can say here in this thread that for me "Queer is about sex and Femme is about gender," and I can talk about them as if they were separate things; but having lived without enough Butch energy in my life for many years, I know that I am different as a Femme depending on whether there are Butches around or not, and different yet again if there is sex in my life or not.... so even though I can talk as if they were separate, I can't compartmentalize them (sexuality and gender) quite so easily in life.

Nor do I want to. Part of the sexual thrill for me is being a Femme to a Butch. I like that. I like playing with that image and those roles.

Those images that haunt Ms. Cyn, especially the Donna Reed image, they haunt me too. I can never be Donna Reed, because yanno she was perfect, elegant, glamorous, never made a mistake, never put a foot wrong. Hell, I'm never in my life going to be glamorous or elegant or any of the rest of it.

I think what strikes me is that these images of femininity (Donna Reed, suzi homemaker, dress-up doll, sweet submissive) are tied to housework and obedience-to-the-men-who-own-one. Honestly, it makes me think of a slave--not in the BDSM sense, but in the real-life outrage-against-humanity forced sense.

If the epitome of all that is feminine is household slavery, how could ANYONE who is mentally healthy ever be "feminine enough" or "Femme enough"??

I had to find a different way to look at femininity and Femmeness. That's why I like the energy analogy. It isn't what I do or what particular personality I have or even whether or not someone masculine might "own" me--it's what kind of energy flows through me. I recognize that energy as Femme because I see it mirrored back to me again and again from the other Femmes in our community.

The amount and kind of Femme energy that flows through me might not be what appeals to every Butch, but it is "enough." I am Femme enough to suit myself... and really, who else has the right to judge?

[Bit]

I hope this makes sense. I'm trying to articulate something that I am just figuring out here.

Oh, I think we're probably all trying to articulate, and figuring it out as we go. *smiling* You're doing very well.

[Darth Denkay]

I have found this thread extremely enlightening to read. Admittedly I sometimes actually feel like a peeping Tom - should I even be reading this since it is, and should be, femme space. However, I can and do grow from all of your voices, so I'm guessing that reading is not intruding. My perspective is that because this is femme space I need to remain an observer. Of course, even by just posting this I am putting myself into it, but I guess I just wanted to share that I think non-femmes can gain much from reading this but our input should be limited. I hope this post does not feel intrusive.

[blush]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

[christie]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

Thank you for bringing this up!

It does feel like a ranking system to me. I have never understood it...

To me, I see "high femme" and I wonder what that person might be smoking! Is that like, "high as gas" or "high as Jesus"??

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...

[NJFemmie]

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...


I think this might apply to any femme shorter than 5'0".
But.... I could be wrong.

[christie]

I think this might apply to any femme shorter than 5'0".
But.... I could be wrong.


LMAO!!! I thought that was any femme other than me... I usually tower over everyone... no matter the ID...

[Julie]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

Blush.. I sarcastically have in my profile as my identity: Femme (neither high nor low). As I have heard these terms and have been asked, if I identify as a high femme or just a femme (lol). Are we talking maintenance here? Pretty much astounds me.

And what does high maintenance vs. low maintenance really mean? I am not a car for god sake! Though I do prefer rich dark roast coffee rather than maxwell house. Get's my engine purring!

Julie

[apretty]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

don't even get me started.

i am so overly done with the term *high* femme as if there's some HIGHerarcy of femme--if that's the case,
where are all the HIGH butches?

i recall this sort-of date i had, years ago with this not-extremely well put together (which i don't mind, but bare with me, i have a point), nor educated in the ways of "how you conduct yourself on a dinner with me" type-butch. it was summer, i was wearing a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

i mean what the holy fuck--well, next he informed me that i'm not a *natural* submissive--which, enthralled me, because (tongue-in-cheek, here) i am sure, like all of my good sister femmes, i too love being told "about me" by someone i don't know/didn't ask (and who i have zero intention of submitting to/for because frankly, it takes something a little more than a daddy 'title' to get me there. see: :tiger: ) ok, and if i sound rude, NONE of these people are on this website and i have no ill will towards this person--really, he just was/is misguided in his attempt to define *femme* to me (and not expect that i'll take the opportunity to fuck with him). and the topper: when all is said and done, i am not being a HIGH or GOOD femme because i am extremely disagreeable. and frankly, i can be disagreeable a LOT of the time--it doesn't take from or add to my GENDER.

/end rant. and i blame my sister-femme, blush for getting me all riled on a sunday.

[Arwen]

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. :) Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. :D OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. :badger:ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.

[Arwen]

a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.



Holy Hannah! I'd have left him sitting there with cheese hanging out of his mouth.

Now THAT ranking annoys me. I wasn't even considering it coming from a Butch. That one needed an attitude adjustment and I hope you gave him one.

That kind of ranking is about someone else needing to be seen by who is on their arm. That's a shallowness none of us need in our lives. And I'm glad you learned that about that :crap: before you actually developed any relationship with him.

[apretty]

Holy Hannah! I'd have left him sitting there with cheese hanging out of his mouth.

Now THAT ranking annoys me. I wasn't even considering it coming from a Butch. That one needed an attitude adjustment and I hope you gave him one.

That kind of ranking is about someone else needing to be seen by who is on their arm. That's a shallowness none of us need in our lives. And I'm glad you learned that about that :crap: before you actually developed any relationship with him.





yes, well you can only try to educate so much... i don't think a word of what i was saying got through at all. and honestly, sometimes i'll participate in a situation longer than is necessary because i'm fascinated by what someone is saying/doing--and not the good fascinated, more like morbid curiosity. this was definitely one of those times. and well, i had to share--that was a real life *example* of what "high femme" means to some--and i am sadly of the thinking that he isn't the only one that thinks like that. (that's what really bothers me.)

[Arwen]

yes, well you can only try to educate so much... i don't think a word of what i was saying got through at all. and honestly, sometimes i'll participate in a situation longer than is necessary because i'm fascinated by what someone is saying/doing--and not the good fascinated, more like morbid curiosity. this was definitely one of those times. and well, i had to share--that was a real life *example* of what "high femme" means to some--and i am sadly of the thinking that he isn't the only one that thinks like that. (that's what really bothers me.)

I have to wonder if that isn't a case of media socialization or if that was what his mom was like. :bicycle:may have helped but you are right...some people don't want to learn.

And that's probably okay. Those that want an Angelina Jolie body with a Donna Reed personality and Paula Deen in the kitchen are going to be searching a long damned time. I kind of feel sorry for the emptiness in them that will never ever get filled.

And those femmes who are constantly trying to cram themselves into that picture frame... how do they do it?

[apretty]

i just don't think it's real. and i'm about calling out the shit when i see it.

and i can totally understand someone with an overly developed sense of fashion (hello, i worked in womens' retail for years!) wanting another person with *also* an overly developed sense of fashion.... but you (in my world) don't get to dress like a schlub (EZ's word) and talk to me about stockings, heels and pencil skirts (not that he'd know what a pencil skirt was). that sooooo doesn't work for me. i am the type of person to point that all out (when my more subtle methods haven't worked, of course).

[evolveme]

Mm. Well.

I thought "high" and "low" femme were merely reflective of altered and mood states.

[SuperFemme]

I scare the Arwen? I am pretty sure my perception is not skewed about you Arwen. You are the epitome of Strong/Hot/Femme to me. You don't take shit, you speak your mind and you do it all while looking gorgeous. Jeans and a t-shirt look as alluring on you as a ball gown. You shine from the inside out.

Remember Vegas Arwen? You danced the entire night at the Ball and I sat in a chair with nobody willing to approach me, talk to me, or ask me to dance. You came over twitterpated and told me you felt like the Bell of the Ball. It was transformative for you. I told you that i felt i-n-v-i-s-i-b-l-e. You were shocked.

I was not. I am used to it. I don't make effort to "perform" Femme. I really am just me all of the time. My world view doesn't measure girliness in others, but rather cerebral stimulation, kindness, empathy, and heart. All of which you carry very well. I'm not high. I'm not low. I don't see others as high or low in any kind of rating system or higherarchy (thanks ap).

I may or may not be confuzzled on how I could possibly scare you. Pet my head please.

[Arwen]

I so want to borrow your mirror to look at myself in. I do remember dancing that night away and feeling like a Belle of the Ball. It was transformative to me (And that cute Katanaboi helped, lol).

When you and I went shopping...I felt like this ignoramus. I had no clue what Sephora was. I was so sure you would see through me and realize I was just a pretend femme.

: pats your pretty head: I love you and have learned a lot from you about being myself and not worrying about what others think I should be.

You are, whether you like it or not, one of my role models. :):dance1:

When I think of you (no I don't touch my elf), I think of what perserverance and self-honesty look like. I think of a beautiful woman who conquers adversity on a daily basis. I think of someone I want to be more like.

I scare the Arwen? I am pretty sure my perception is not skewed about you Arwen. You are the epitome of Strong/Hot/Femme to me. You don't take shit, you speak your mind and you do it all while looking gorgeous. Jeans and a t-shirt look as alluring on you as a ball gown. You shine from the inside out.

Remember Vegas Arwen? You danced the entire night at the Ball and I sat in a chair with nobody willing to approach me, talk to me, or ask me to dance. You came over twitterpated and told me you felt like the Bell of the Ball. It was transformative for you. I told you that i felt i-n-v-i-s-i-b-l-e. You were shocked.

I was not. I am used to it. I don't make effort to "perform" Femme. I really am just me all of the time. My world view doesn't measure girliness in others, but rather cerebral stimulation, kindness, empathy, and heart. All of which you carry very well. I'm not high. I'm not low. I don't see others as high or low in any kind of rating system or higherarchy (thanks ap).

I may or may not be confuzzled on how I could possibly scare you. Pet my head please.

[SuperFemme]

Ha. The Sephora trip must have slipped into on of the holes in my Swiss Cheese Brain.

I think a *pretend femme* is a mythical creature. There is no blueprint to Femme.
I have NEVER in my life thought "Hmmm. Is she a *real femme*?". Rather, I love the diversity that envelopes Femme.

I'm not saying this to negate your experience Arwen. Rather as a reminder that we are all evolving creatures unique in our own right. The bracelet said it well. :rrose:

[Words]

The exchange between you two is lovely. Lovely in itself, lovely because it just goes to show that femme - just femme - really is enough.

High femme, low femme, sporty femme, remotecontrolhuggerfemme, it honestly doesn't matter, what matters is the 'F' word because it's that word, that essence, that unites us and that sets us apart from others.

Words

[cara]

Right now I am wishing for a few close femme friends that live near me.

Thank goodness for butchfemmeplanet!

~cara

[blush]

Thank you for bringing this up!

It does feel like a ranking system to me. I have never understood it...

To me, I see "high femme" and I wonder what that person might be smoking! Is that like, "high as gas" or "high as Jesus"??

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...
I've never heard anyone self-identify as a low femme, but I've heard it as a discriptor for the opposite of high femme.

Blush.. I sarcastically have in my profile as my identity: Femme (neither high nor low). As I have heard these terms and have been asked, if I identify as a high femme or just a femme (lol). Are we talking maintenance here? Pretty much astounds me.

And what does high maintenance vs. low maintenance really mean? I am not a car for god sake! Though I do prefer rich dark roast coffee rather than maxwell house. Get's my engine purring!

Julie
I don't know if it refers to high maintenance? I've seen both. I think it depends on the femme?

don't even get me started.

i am so overly done with the term *high* femme as if there's some HIGHerarcy of femme--if that's the case,
where are all the HIGH butches?

i recall this sort-of date i had, years ago with this not-extremely well put together (which i don't mind, but bare with me, i have a point), nor educated in the ways of "how you conduct yourself on a dinner with me" type-butch. it was summer, i was wearing a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

i mean what the holy fuck--well, next he informed me that i'm not a *natural* submissive--which, enthralled me, because (tongue-in-cheek, here) i am sure, like all of my good sister femmes, i too love being told "about me" by someone i don't know/didn't ask (and who i have zero intention of submitting to/for because frankly, it takes something a little more than a daddy 'title' to get me there. see: :tiger: ) ok, and if i sound rude, NONE of these people are on this website and i have no ill will towards this person--really, he just was/is misguided in his attempt to define *femme* to me (and not expect that i'll take the opportunity to fuck with him). and the topper: when all is said and done, i am not being a HIGH or GOOD femme because i am extremely disagreeable. and frankly, i can be disagreeable a LOT of the time--it doesn't take from or add to my GENDER.

/end rant. and i blame my sister-femme, blush for getting me all riled on a sunday.

Did we go on the same date with the same butch? :giggle:
Yeah, interestingly, I've "been told" that I'm high femme or low femme, depending on the butch. I've even argued the point, insisting I'm simply femme. That point was argued based on THEIR interpretation of me.

Can you IMAGINE the brewhaha that would ensue if femmes started telling butches/transguys who they "really" are?
For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.
But isn't that part of the perception of high femme? As the "ultimate" of girly?

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. :) Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. :D OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.
I hear where you're coming from on the comparing your femme self to other femmes. It feels patronizing to me to tell you "Oh, but YOU are an amazing femme!" You already know this about yourself.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. :badger:ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.

[julieisafemme]

High femme has confused me. I do know a high femme in real time. I was told by a butch that I was not a high femme and that she only likes high femmes and when I asked what that was or how do you know or something like that I was told well you just know and trust me you are not one.

I have no problem with someone who identifies that way. I don't think it is in any way a hierarchy coming from the femme. At least I have not experienced it that way It seems it is some kind of ranking from the butches. And then I internalize and compare and I somehow make myself come up lacking. So I guess what I am trying to say is that I am responsible for that.

Happy Hannukah and Chag Sameach to any Jewish femmes here. I love this cute emoticon here! :2driedel: Usually it is always Christmas stuff.

[Bit]

I have seen Femmes self-identify as Low Femme. It's been several years and maybe they might identify differently now, but at the time, they were saying things like, "I am the opposite of a High Femme; I wear comfortable shoes, jeans, no makeup," to explain the difference.

I've never known a different term for High Femme, but since it's a description of a "glamor girl" type Femme, I usually just say glamor girl.

It has been presented as a hierarchy for a long time and that's a major reason I have had trouble with the idea of being "Femme enough." When I was still fairly new in the community at the Dash site, there were multiple serious threads which proclaimed that one had to be a glamor girl in order to be successful at being Femme. That was before those of us who say "Femme is what we are, not what we wear" outnumbered those who said "Femme is what we wear and what we do."

I think our community has evolved a LOT over the past seven years, and our gender discussions have brought us all much farther along than we might ordinarily notice, without a conversation like this to jog our memories. There was a time that talking about the hierarchy between High and Low Femmes would merely have gotten a "yes, that's the way it should be" answer. I'm glad it doesn't happen like that anymore; I'm glad we're questioning the stereotypes.

I'm sorry that julieisafemme, blush, and apretty have run into such clueless Butches! Sheesh. Well... I suppose I have too, but on the other side of things, Butches who were unhappy that I chose to wear makeup or that I had long hair.... as if those choices were about BUTCHES?

Hello, MY face, MY hair, MY gender expression, MY choice.

[Lynn]

It's true, I've been told that I'm not a femme by someone (happened to be FtM) from the match site. I think the reason was that I expressed to him that I appreciate all women, not just butch women. Even though butch women are my preference for romantic or sexual partners.

But, whatever. It bugged me because I thought he was a jerk to offer his opinion. I was amazed (naively) that someone who had defied stereotypes, as he had, would be so quick to label and judge me. It didn't affect how I felt about myself, though. I can have low self-esteem without any help from anyone! :hanging:

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's true, I've been told that I'm not a femme by someone (happened to be FtM) from the match site. I think the reason was that I expressed to him that I appreciate all women, not just butch women. Even though butch women are my preference for romantic or sexual partners.

But, whatever. It bugged me because I thought he was a jerk to offer his opinion. I was amazed (naively) that someone who had defied stereotypes, as he had, would be so quick to label and judge me. It didn't affect how I felt about myself, though. I can have low self-esteem without any help from anyone! :hanging:



Lynn, I feell ya... I had this butch once, tell me I was more butch than he, that my lack of skirts and lack of giggles made me as such.. My favorite I often get is, a good femme keeps quiet and is not so blunt.. I snap, I wanna grab that person by the throat and choke them... Right now I wanna scoop someone's eyes out with a lemon baller because the equate femme to *straight looking*

OY VEY:overreaction:

[Medusa]

I was once told by a Butch that they found the reading of my poetry at an event for another site "distasteful" because of my usage of the words "fuck" and "pussy". They found it "unladylike".

After I got through laughing, I asked the person what they thought of the act that was currently on stage, which happened to be a Butch doing a drag routine. The Butch on stage happened to be grinding their crotch on a person sitting in a chair at the time.

After the person said they "didnt see a problem with what the Butch was doing on stage because it was just 'the nature of a Butch'", I retorted something to the effect of "well pardon the fuck out of my unladylike self but I gotta piss"

Sure, I could have responded better but sometimes the misogyny in our community is overwhelming.

[Arwen]

But isn't that part of the perception of high femme? As the "ultimate" of girly?

Honestly? Not for me. High femme, to me, is ultra-sophisticated. She is the NYC kind of woman who is always put together. Girly is different. Girly, again for me, is a bit...a bit Donna Reed, maybe?

Poor Donna Reed...all she ever did was play a part.

I hear where you're coming from on the comparing your femme self to other femmes. It feels patronizing to me to tell you "Oh, but YOU are an amazing femme!" You already know this about yourself.


Heck honey, I know I'm amazing on my good days. But there are many days still when I fight that battle. And I think, smile, I think it's okay to patronize me in that way. Hee.

But seriously, I think sometimes I DO have a victim/poor-me that whines and wants to know that I'm liked. I've been doing some work on that voice of myself. It's not an authentic voice for me. I don't want to be rescued and when I put that energy out there, that's what happens. :toothache:

So thank you.

[blush]

Honestly? Not for me. High femme, to me, is ultra-sophisticated. She is the NYC kind of woman who is always put together. Girly is different. Girly, again for me, is a bit...a bit Donna Reed, maybe?

Poor Donna Reed...all she ever did was play a part.

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[/COLOR]
Heck honey, I know I'm amazing on my good days. But there are many days still when I fight that battle. And I think, smile, I think it's okay to patronize me in that way. Hee.

But seriously, I think sometimes I DO have a victim/poor-me that whines and wants to know that I'm liked. I've been doing some work on that voice of myself. It's not an authentic voice for me. I don't want to be rescued and when I put that energy out there, that's what happens. :toothache:

So thank you.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I hear you on the Donna Reed. I think what I meant was is "high" femme an aspiration we all secretly have? Do we perceive it to be the pinnacle of femme?

On the flip side of the high femme, I've also heard a lot of shit from femmes and trans/butches about high femmes. That they are stupid, "too much work," ALWAYS submissive, ALWAYS stone, and on and on...

[cara]

I've been told my entire life to "act like a lady." When I was younger and playing rugby, an older male told me getting hurt was what I got for trying to play a man's sport. I was too shocked to retort by saying that I didn't get hurt playing rugby but that it was actually an injury from playing volleyball at the company picnic. *eyeroll* I've heard this mysoginistic stuff from my dad, from men trying to pick me up, from butches and even people in the leather community. I've heard it so much that, like Arwen, I have to fight that internal processing so hard ever day. It has been a struggle to figure out who I am and find my own voice. What I want is to be seen, heard, understood and accepted as a person not a gender or gender stereotype. I agree with Bit that our community has evolved a lot over the past several years. I am curious to see what it will look like in another 7 years.

~cara

[NJFemmie]

It's true, I've been told that I'm not a femme by someone (happened to be FtM) from the match site. I think the reason was that I expressed to him that I appreciate all women, not just butch women. Even though butch women are my preference for romantic or sexual partners.

But, whatever. It bugged me because I thought he was a jerk to offer his opinion. I was amazed (naively) that someone who had defied stereotypes, as he had, would be so quick to label and judge me. It didn't affect how I felt about myself, though. I can have low self-esteem without any help from anyone! :hanging:

The same has happened to me, but on that other site - I was told I wasn't femme because I too, appreciate all women. I AM a lesbian, so femme wasn't supposed to be an identifying option for me. According to that particular source, femmes are "supposed" to be into stone/TG/FtM butches (exclusively). Lesbians "don't count" as being femme.

Whatever.

I am who I feel inside. At times I feel fiercely femme, other times, I don't. I am just me exploring and playing out the many facets of who I am. I have been called unladylike but I have also been called high femme. I have had so many "labels" throughout my life - truthfully, I don't care how others perceive me anymore. All I concern myself with is being true to who I am and living each day in the world I define - not how others define it for me.

And for the record - I have never heard of "low femme" as a descriptor.

[Isadora]

I have always had issues with the "high" femme tag. I have always identified as femme. I wear make up almost all the time, don't own a pair of jeans (and I don't think have since high school almost 40 years ago) and wear heels 90% of the time. TO assume I am uncomfortable in them makes me so tired. I have been hearing to "Why don't you wear tennis shoes and slacks and be comfortable?" for 30 years. I am comfortable in heels and flats. I am comfortable in skirts and dresses. Slacks bind me and I hate them. To use this as a way to describe a certain type of femme is just silly.

I never assume a femme who is more comfortable in slacks and jeans is less femme. Cheezus. At least when I came out in the 60's and 70's there was not this on-going linear discussion of femme based on how you looked.

I was raised by two stylish women: my mother and grandmother who did not leave the house with out powder on the nose and a hand bag that matched their shoes. What the hell does that have to with my femme gender?

I had a gay man say to me the other day, "I have not quiet figured you out. You are so femme on the outside and....so ummm butch on the inside." My reply was "No, honey, that is called being a in control of my self and in my world I am femme inside and out. It is growing up the oldest of nine children with a mentally ill mother and having to take (and I mean take) control." I am, mostly, an in control femme. Inside and out. It doesn't make me a high or low or medium femme it makes me competent and a wee bit bossy.

Hahahaha!

[Gemme]

For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. :) Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. :D OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. :badger:ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.


You mentioned something later on that I've quoted below also. You said you'd like to look at yourself through Adele's mirror. If we would all trade mirrors once in a while, we'd see more clearly I think.

You and I share a similar, if not the same, personal definition of high femme. I only heard the term 'low' femme at the other place but I've never (to my recollection) heard anyone apply it to themselves. There have been tomboy femmes and casual femmes but I haven't knowingly run into any low femmes.

I don't see high versus low as a ranking system either, but I DO see a hierarchy, if that makes sense, since the two usually walk through the door hand in hand. I don't see high as being better than low but I do see it as being more attractive to certain people and in certain situations.

I also have any issue with feeling like I'm 'not enough'. This applies to many areas, not just being a femme in general. When others see me, they may think petite, which I am. At least I push the petite versus short point because, in my mind, when someone says short, I think stubby. Immediately. *shrug* But I digress...it's like I'm a chimera or something. I'm small on top and a cheerleading linebacker on the bottom. :blink:

It's difficult to feel feminine, much less femme, when you see yourself as something that is traditionally very masculine and has terms like "husky" to describe it.

Is this where I go into the whole "you ate your twin while I was pregnant with you" thing? :twitch:



I scare the Arwen? I am pretty sure my perception is not skewed about you Arwen. You are the epitome of Strong/Hot/Femme to me. You don't take shit, you speak your mind and you do it all while looking gorgeous. Jeans and a t-shirt look as alluring on you as a ball gown. You shine from the inside out.

Remember Vegas Arwen? You danced the entire night at the Ball and I sat in a chair with nobody willing to approach me, talk to me, or ask me to dance. You came over twitterpated and told me you felt like the Bell of the Ball. It was transformative for you. I told you that i felt i-n-v-i-s-i-b-l-e. You were shocked.

I was not. I am used to it. I don't make effort to "perform" Femme. I really am just me all of the time. My world view doesn't measure girliness in others, but rather cerebral stimulation, kindness, empathy, and heart. All of which you carry very well. I'm not high. I'm not low. I don't see others as high or low in any kind of rating system or higherarchy (thanks ap).

I may or may not be confuzzled on how I could possibly scare you. Pet my head please.


Posts like this just make me fall a little bit more in love with you, Adele.



I so want to borrow your mirror to look at myself in. I do remember dancing that night away and feeling like a Belle of the Ball. It was transformative to me (And that cute Katanaboi helped, lol).

When you and I went shopping...I felt like this ignoramus. I had no clue what Sephora was. I was so sure you would see through me and realize I was just a pretend femme.


P.S. ~ I knew what Sephora was but I'd never been in one until two months ago. It's nice and sparkly, but it certainly does not make the femme.

I hear you on the Donna Reed. I think what I meant was is "high" femme an aspiration we all secretly have? Do we perceive it to be the pinnacle of femme?

On the flip side of the high femme, I've also heard a lot of shit from femmes and trans/butches about high femmes. That they are stupid, "too much work," ALWAYS submissive, ALWAYS stone, and on and on...

The very idea of being a high femme makes me cringe and my feet hurt. I can wear the heels, and like to, for special events. If I wore them all the time, it wouldn't be special for me. It'd be more like a slow torture to my tootsies. I own dresses. I own a TON of dresses. Do I wear them? Oh, every 5 years or so, when I make a butch femme get together and only if they are long. Would I like to look good in said dresses and heels? Sure. Would I wear them more if I thought I looked better than I do now in them? Sure. Would it make me a high femme? Nah.

It's not the pinnacle to me, although I have GOT to appreciate a woman who can do all that. I'm in awe of it, really. I'm simply too lazy to do that.

I've noticed that high femmes do tend to be Stone more often. I can see the correlation, but I'm sure there are some who do not identify as Stone. I know of some high femmes that are NOT submissive, though. That, and the whole stupid thing, are a load of hot, steaming :crap:.

[Lynn]

In this discussion of "high femme," or any other type of femme, it's fascinating to consider the question: to what degree does the inner person match the outer person? Does it matter? For me, yes it does. I have found that my own happiness and sense of grounding has much to do with the extent to which what you (and I) see and perceive of me is consistent with who I believe myself to be.

One of the lessons I learned through my divorce and the whole coming out process is that I need to listen to my own voice, and consult with myself first when it comes to important matters. My own intuition is the best guide, when I remember to pay attention.

So, when it comes to the question of what style or way of being best suits me, I go with my gut. I'm not girly, but I am womanly. I'm short, but I stand tall--not on very high heels, though. I dress in a feminine way, but not frilly or really girly. Etc. All of this isn't a contrived identity in order to attract particular someones. It's just as close to expressing myself through my appearance as I can get.

Aside from the occasional "you're too pretty to be a lesbian" comments (which I don't mind so much...I like to be called pretty :spruceup: ), there is very little confusion these days about who I am. No one is surprised when I say I'm a lesbian. I have this idea that it's because I get more and more consistent, with my "inner and outer" lives. The keys to this being self-awareness and self-trust. Not that I have this all down, by any means. It's a process.

[NJFemmie]

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

... when I think of high femme, I think of my old friend Stephanie - always dressed to the nines in her skirts (she NEVER EVER EVER wore pants - in fact, the one day she came to my house wearing jeans, (this was after having a lengthy conversation about her wardrobe) I damn near died, lol), makeup always impeccable and flawless, high heels that shot her into another galaxy (she was a tall drink of water to begin with) - she always fussed and demanded the very best. She was a sweetheart, but good lord she could really fuss up a storm. I referred to her as ultra-femme - if I were to consider a pyramid of femme-ness - Steph would be sitting right on top.

Do I think of all high femmes this way? Not necessarily, but, in a way yes - when I consider attitude, demeanor and aesthetics.

Side note: I know very few high femme submissives.

Low femme would be the opposite (IMO). Low maintenance femme makes me think of a 'casual' femme - more down to earth in appearance and 'tude. Not as fussy aesthetically speaking, but femme non the less.

Yet, to sound contradictory to my pyramid statement, it's difficult for me to perceive a "ranking system" for anyone. I don't think an ultra or high femme is "above" a low and/or casual femme. The pyramid I am referring to would be based on purely aesthetics.

This may sound redundant, but I base opinions of people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are, or HOW they perceive themselves to be. When I think of "ranking" - I think of who is better than who - who stands above someone else - and I find that to be difficult for me, since I base my opinions on people based on who/how they are as a human being - not how a person dresses and/or portrays themselves to the world - and not based on what title they hold in life.

Issues about not being femme enough have (more-or-less) the same conflicts as not being butch enough. IMO, it's all based on opinions, and opinions are - loaded guns with serious implications. I don't think any less of myself because I am not ultra or high femme - and I wouldn't tolerate anyone making me think that I am. It's about preference. If I am not femme enough for someone - that's okay - I am not going to make myself into something I'm not because I think of a "ranking system".

I guess when I continue to read that some are having self-issues with the level of femme-ness they possess (or don't) - it bothers me a little. You are who you are, and that doesn't make you (collectively) less than. It doesn't make them (collectively) better.

Well, thank you for putting up with my morning rant. :)
I will now consume copious amounts of coffee, with the hopes that everything I just said made some kind of sense.

Cheers. ;)

[Kim]

e, what a wonderful thread! I'm blown away by your introspection as well as the genius of all the femmes who posted.

The idea of a high femme as better than other femmes -- or the epitome of what it means to be femme -- disturbs me. I respect femmes who self-identify as "high" but I also don't see it as a hierarchy or ranking system. "Different" does not equal "better than" in my eyes.

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?

Much love,
Kim <--I'll be turning my cranky old guy on tonight by wearing a hoodie and jeans lol

[NJFemmie]

This leads to the question -- are we ranking ourselves? Are our butch/boy/boi counterparts participating in this? Do we feel "less than" if we don't live up to the standards or expectations of "high femme"?


I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

I do believe butches take part of this - because speaking for myself, I have had butches try to tell me what is femme and what isn't - and what supposedly makes a high femme versus not-a-high femme. (I really am not liking the word "low" unless it's used to say "low maintenance").

? ? ? ? ? Ugh.

Again, it's a matter of perception and preference. But in no way do I feel, that a person's self esteem should be based on this so-called hierarchy.

[Arwen]

I think so.

I don't hear heterosexual women "rank" themselves. I never hear "oh, she's a high hetero, or ooo, look at that casual, low maintenance straight woman". I do see where judgment takes place - perhaps that's one and the same but in different clothing?

Soccer Mom
Country Club Woman
Trophy Wife
Saks Shopper
Wal-Mart People
School teacher
Librarian

I think these all have inherent "looks" and "rankings". When you see those words, do you get a mental image that you then have to get rid of? I do. I hear het women ranking themselves all the time.... but generally it is below some other so-called higher womanly image.

The more I think about this, the more I think that this ranking of females is so entangled in our culture that we may not even realize it.

Consider advertising, right? A man is judged not for what he wears but who he has on his arm. In a sea of dark suits and ties, the woman stands out in her vibrant dress and jewels.

Those of the butch persuasion are no less affected by advertising than those of the femme persuasion.

For me, a lot of the male-centric things within my community are products of socialization. Socialization affected, effected and directed by marketing.

I was raised that it's just tacky for a woman to go out in sweats but no biggie for a man. How do I translate that to my relationships within the BF world?

Example:It's okay for the butch to show up in rumpled attire, but I would be appalled if I did it and, yes, I actaully would judge a femme on this. That's something I have to address with myself obviously.

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

[NJFemmie]

But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?


Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

[Gemme]

Perhaps all of the above.

Aren't we all conditioned to respond this way, and yes, more specifically towards women?

Yes. When females are born, we are sprinkled with tenderizer so it will be easier to tear one another apart.

If only women could turn all of this negative shit inside out and blast the evil forces in the world with it, we'd be on the fast track to world peace.

:ohm:

[Gemme]

It's not just women though.

A woman walks into a store wearing sweats. The salesman looks her up and down with displeasure. Points her in a direction she had no interest in going. She probably made more money in six months than he did in one year - yet - he made assumptions about her.

Would this salesman respond the same way if a man walked in wearing sweats? Probably not.

It depends upon the salesman. If he was a car salesman, yes. If he was a high end retail salesman, then he'd most likely treat them equally.

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that? :4femme:

[blush]

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.


Do I think of all high femmes this way? Not necessarily, but, in a way yes - when I consider attitude, demeanor and aesthetics.

Side note: I know very few high femme submissives.

Low femme would be the opposite (IMO). Low maintenance femme makes me think of a 'casual' femme - more down to earth in appearance and 'tude. Not as fussy aesthetically speaking, but femme non the less.

Yet, to sound contradictory to my pyramid statement, it's difficult for me to perceive a "ranking system" for anyone. I don't think an ultra or high femme is "above" a low and/or casual femme. The pyramid I am referring to would be based on purely aesthetics.

This may sound redundant, but I base opinions of people on WHO they are, not WHAT they are, or HOW they perceive themselves to be. When I think of "ranking" - I think of who is better than who - who stands above someone else - and I find that to be difficult for me, since I base my opinions on people based on who/how they are as a human being - not how a person dresses and/or portrays themselves to the world - and not based on what title they hold in life.

Issues about not being femme enough have (more-or-less) the same conflicts as not being butch enough. IMO, it's all based on opinions, and opinions are - loaded guns with serious implications. I don't think any less of myself because I am not ultra or high femme - and I wouldn't tolerate anyone making me think that I am. It's about preference. If I am not femme enough for someone - that's okay - I am not going to make myself into something I'm not because I think of a "ranking system".

I guess when I continue to read that some are having self-issues with the level of femme-ness they possess (or don't) - it bothers me a little. You are who you are, and that doesn't make you (collectively) less than. It doesn't make them (collectively) better.

Well, thank you for putting up with my morning rant. :)
I will now consume copious amounts of coffee, with the hopes that everything I just said made some kind of sense.

Cheers. ;)
What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

I do consider a pyramid to be a hierarchy. The "top" (high femme) has the attitude and the dress. It scares me to think that the pinnacle of "femme-ness" is any "type." Shouldn't our admiration be based more on human ethics? Wouldn't it be fabulous if our pinnacle was something more than the type of shoe a femme wears? Shouldn't we have better standards?

[NJFemmie]

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

I do consider a pyramid to be a hierarchy. The "top" (high femme) has the attitude and the dress. It scares me to think that the pinnacle of "femme-ness" is any "type." Shouldn't our admiration be based more on human ethics? Wouldn't it be fabulous if our pinnacle was something more than the type of shoe a femme wears? Shouldn't we have better standards?

That's exactly my sentiment. I base my opinions on human nature, not appearance. I've come across many women (and men), that may LOOK good, but that's about where it ends.

[blush]

That's exactly my sentiment. I base my opinions on human nature, not appearance. I've come across many women (and men), that may LOOK good, but that's about where it ends.

I think that, individually, our bullshit detectors are pretty good.

I'm getting at the collective image that a high femme is the best example of femme. We seem to feel that a high femme embodies "femme" best, even if WE don't necessarily wear (or want to wear) that label.

[apretty]

/off topic

regardless of what he or she is selling, a quality salesperson is interested in making the sale and it wouldn't matter what the customer is wearing. i think experiences vary widely, here. most times i chalk up bad service to inexperience or an unskilled, inept salesperson --not to who i am/what i intend to buy, or not.

It depends upon the salesman. If he was a car salesman, yes. If he was a high end retail salesman, then he'd most likely treat them equally.

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that? :4femme:

/on topic:

cuz we're taught from day one to subjugate ourselves.

[apretty]

High femme to me is a high maintenance femme - one who is - yes - fussy - over makeup, heels, appearance, and carries the attitude and the demeanor.

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.

[blush]

I haven't met anyone with the capability to treat everyone they meet the same. While some try, it's just not in our nature. It is, however, in a woman's nature to internalize things and think and think and think about them until somehow the smallest things are pronounced. Why is that? :4femme:
It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based. :)

[blush]

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.



I think the darker side of the HM stereotype is someone who is completely shallow and insists on being the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral.

[Gemme]

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based. :)


I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

[Lynn]

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

That's really more where I am coming from. I admire beauty and confidence in other women. I'm kind of oblivious to the idea of competition, and I never would consider myself a threat to anyone. And, after being around these sites and "communities" for a few years, I realize that this is rather naive.

I do think that every group has an established hierarchy, whether or not we're all aware of it. When I was in college, I really liked one of my classmates, and I tried to reach out to be her friend. She was pretty rude to me so I finally just asked her, "You and I have so much in common, and I really like you. Why do you keep pushing me away?" She told me that it was because I was a threat to her and to her position in our program. She told me that I, like her, was smart, pretty, and I asked good questions. And, that was too much for her. I was flabbergasted. Just floored.

[blush]

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

I'm not trying to throw Walt under the bus. Of course, the Cinderella story is a Grimm Fairy Tale from wayway back in the day. I think it is so rampant in our culture that we have to fight NOT to fall back into that "one girl" mentality.

I agree with you, I've fought the conditioning too. Usually what I find beautiful in a person has little bearing on their clothes.

As an aside, kids are best, imo, at seeing people for who they "really" are.

[Medusa]

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site :)
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

[blush]

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site :)
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

[Medusa]

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

And here's an even better question:

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man :) )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

[SuperFemme]

I have a problem with compliments. If somebody tells me I am pretty, I do NOT believe them and am immediately suspect. I was a total outcast in school and started high school at the age of 12. When I finally gained some self confidence it was because I had succeeded immensely in my professional life. Then one day I went to gay pride and got run down. My self worth plummeted because I emerged from a coma a completely different person. I have never felt part of a group or a crowd, yet everyone assumes I am and that I float through life with no worries. Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment? :hammer:

[cara]

I think the things that hurt the most are the things you hear behind your back. 'Dusa, if I had known that sort of email was circulating after the get-together in KC, I would have said something. Honestly, I think that situation is more telling of the people writing and sending the email than anything. And I hear you about both the amazing and painful aspects of that event.

Also, I think the horrible, ugly comments stay with us the longest because we have a nature to dwell on the negative. Well, I shouldn't speak for all femmes. I should say *I* have a tendency to dwell on the negative. As I get older and more comfortable in my own skin, I'm finding it easier to let it roll off my shoulders, though. I'm also finding it easier to leave the rubbish where I found it. You don't like me because I'm fat, shy, and quirky? Good! One more narrow-minded person out of my life.

:heart:

[atomiczombie]

Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment? :hammer:

You are an amazing person and I am giving you a :gimmehug:

[Arwen]

It's the Cinderalla complex. Or part of it. We are taught that there is only ONE beautiful woman in any given room. If that's "not us," then it must be something flawed in ourselves.

I don't think it's in "our nature," though. I think it's Disney-based. :)

I think I have this. Except for me, EVERYONE else at the party is smarter and funnier and prettier than me. I'm everyone's stepsister.

Or was. One of the things I'm working on. Goofy can tell y'all all stories about me but one in particular is the time he was too ill to go to a party at Pup's and I broke down into hysterical tears because I was terrified to go by myself.

Terrified. Nearly threw up on the way there.

But I went. And it was fine. But y'all will never know the horrific anxiety attack I had.

What makes it funny is that it wasn't even my first time there. I'd been to Pup's several times. But never without my security blanket. Not sure Goof enjoyed being told he was a security blanket, but that's how I rolled.

Really working on not doing that anymore. Proudly I can say I've been to several functions where I didn't go with anyone and I survived. I still get panicky. I still try to figure out reasons not to go, but I am determined to make myself go.


I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating


I have so much admiration for you. Reading your story fits into my own angst so much except I never actually did the hard work to lose any weight.

It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I have to check my mirror. I think I may have a red-headed twin. Self-sabotage. I do this. I try not to, but I still do this sometimes.

It sucks to live life expecting to be talked about. It sucks worse to have it come to fruition.

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

I keep thinking about starting a thread called Mirrors. In it, you could only look in the mirror for someone else and post what you saw about them that was positive.

Wow. I just wrote five sentences of negativity and deleted each one. Apparently, my joy meter is low today. :)

ANYWHO! It would be a positive thread and you couldn't deny what was said about you. Only say thanks and accept it.

We all need lessons in learning how to believe in the hype others tell us about ourselves. :)

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man :) )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

HUGS. It's acceptance for me. It's validation as well, but more acceptance. I want to be a part of the bonding but I can't stand the backstabbing. I saw it so much in high school and then when I was in a sorority (fraternity actually but it was all women.) I have done so much of it myself. I can't accept that in my life any more.

I'm fortunate here in Austin. That sort of thing seems to be very limited. We have good people here.

When I finally gained some self confidence it was because I had succeeded immensely in my professional life. Then one day I went to gay pride and got run down. My self worth plummeted because I emerged from a coma a completely different person. I have never felt part of a group or a crowd, yet everyone assumes I am and that I float through life with no worries. Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment? :hammer:

I just want to give you a compliment now because this made me CRY to read. So I'll make it a stinging one.

You are a bobble-headed woman who weebles when you are tired and you wear a wooden spoon around your neck and I love you. How's that?

I think the things that hurt the most are the things you hear behind your back.
SNIP
You don't like me because I'm fat, shy, and quirky? Good! One more narrow-minded person out of my life.

:heart:

Cara, you are my new femme heroine. This last line was positively positive and I adored it. Can you be my fat, shy, quirky femme crush?

[cara]

Haha! I *still* can't figure out that quote thingy, but sure, Arwen. I'll be your fat, shy, and quirky femme crush! :D

*hugs*

[cara]

P.S. I like the Mirror thread idea!!!

[Arwen]

Haha! I *still* can't figure out that quote thingy, but sure, Arwen. I'll be your fat, shy, and quirky femme crush! :D

*hugs*
Cara, my love, drink to me only with thine eyes.


Then look down to the right of this post. See the four buttons? Quote will quote this. The plus sign will mark this as one you want to quote. Then you can + as many as you like. Then you hit Quote on the last one and voila (or walla, lol) you have multiple posts to edit and quote around. Helpful?

[Gemme]

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

I think negative shit has super glue on it or something. Seriously. Maybe in this day and age when ALL the kids on the team get a ribbon or trophy, so no one is superior....in order to combat negative feelings....maybe it's helping to allow the negative to stick around longer. No one's special.

In reference to Medusa's "Flippant" thread, the term special has been used by, for and around me all my life, so maybe my view with it is all screwed up.

*shrug*

I don't know. I had a train. It had thoughts, but I'll be damned if I know where it went.

And here's an even better question:

I dont know if this is true for anyone else but I remember in blinding detail the negative comments that other women have made to me. Very rarely do comments from Butches, Transmen, or Men sting me in the same way. (well, except there WAS that one time that an ex of mine circulated a rumor that I was actually a man :) )

Perhaps its because of the desired validation. Perhaps its because of my family history with other women. Perhaps its an acceptance thing. I think that for me, a tiny part of it feels like a violation. Cant put my finger on it just yet.

Males are nothing to me, so their comments may sting temporarily, but they won't stick. Women....my peers....now those are some nasty wounds waiting to happen. People smell fear...insecurity...and latch onto it and ride it into the ground. Some people want to allay others' pain and insecurity and others want to exploit it to try to make themselves appear and/or feel better.

I have a problem with compliments. If somebody tells me I am pretty, I do NOT believe them and am immediately suspect. I was a total outcast in school and started high school at the age of 12. When I finally gained some self confidence it was because I had succeeded immensely in my professional life. Then one day I went to gay pride and got run down. My self worth plummeted because I emerged from a coma a completely different person. I have never felt part of a group or a crowd, yet everyone assumes I am and that I float through life with no worries. Why is is SO much easier for me to take a stinging comment than a compliment? :hammer:

It has taken Ryan months to get me to acknowledge that he may indeed think I am pretty, but I always have to follow it up with "but you are biased", which is not fair to him. I'm invalidating his feelings to feed my own insecurities. It's not fair or nice, but he's working with me to help me see myself as he does. Honestly, I'm scared to "be" pretty or smart or talented. Like someone could come along and take it from me if I don't deny or hide it.

I think I have this. Except for me, EVERYONE else at the party is smarter and funnier and prettier than me. I'm everyone's stepsister.

Or was. One of the things I'm working on. Goofy can tell y'all all stories about me but one in particular is the time he was too ill to go to a party at Pup's and I broke down into hysterical tears because I was terrified to go by myself.

Terrified. Nearly threw up on the way there.

But I went. And it was fine. But y'all will never know the horrific anxiety attack I had.

What makes it funny is that it wasn't even my first time there. I'd been to Pup's several times. But never without my security blanket. Not sure Goof enjoyed being told he was a security blanket, but that's how I rolled.

Really working on not doing that anymore. Proudly I can say I've been to several functions where I didn't go with anyone and I survived. I still get panicky. I still try to figure out reasons not to go, but I am determined to make myself go.


I am SO PROUD of you for this, Arwen! :gimmehug:

I keep thinking about starting a thread called Mirrors. In it, you could only look in the mirror for someone else and post what you saw about them that was positive.

Wow. I just wrote five sentences of negativity and deleted each one. Apparently, my joy meter is low today. :)

ANYWHO! It would be a positive thread and you couldn't deny what was said about you. Only say thanks and accept it.

We all need lessons in learning how to believe in the hype others tell us about ourselves. :)


DO IT! I have to log off soon, but if I come back tomorrow and don't find one set up exactly as you have described here, I'm starting it.

Do it. Please. :gimmehug:


HUGS. It's acceptance for me. It's validation as well, but more acceptance. I want to be a part of the bonding but I can't stand the backstabbing. I saw it so much in high school and then when I was in a sorority (fraternity actually but it was all women.) I have done so much of it myself. I can't accept that in my life any more.

I'm fortunate here in Austin. That sort of thing seems to be very limited. We have good people here.


Austin is fortunate to have YOU.

I just want to give you a compliment now because this made me CRY to read. So I'll make it a stinging one.

You are a bobble-headed woman who weebles when you are tired and you wear a wooden spoon around your neck and I love you. How's that?


Who wouldn't believe that? That made me tear up a bit.

[cara]

Cara, my love, drink to me only with thine eyes.

Then look down to the right of this post. See the four buttons? Quote will quote this. The plus sign will mark this as one you want to quote. Then you can + as many as you like. Then you hit Quote on the last one and voila (or walla, lol) you have multiple posts to edit and quote around. Helpful?


I am drunketh! :drunk:

Thanks for explaining. :bowdown:

:stillheart:

[NJFemmie]

'high maintenance' is just some term that men have applied to women to demean their accomplishments, their independence, their equality. 'HM' is what a man calls a woman who won't date him, finds him uninteresting, realizes early/instead of sleeping with him, that he's got not much to offer her. 'HM' is when a man finds a woman 'difficult'. 'HM' is for when a man fancies himself 'evolved' so he won't call this woman a "bitch", at least not to her face.

with regards to attitude and demeanor. that's not HIGH anything. we've all got that, it's power that we're born with by virtue of being (wonderful, fabulous and amazing) women.

perhaps you find your friend more self-possessed than yourself?

and count me as another who's never known a 'low femme'.



Hmmm ... no. Can't say that would be the case.

My friend used high maintenance to describe herself. This was about the very first time I have ever heard that being used. (Which is why when I hear that, I automatically think of her).

Will come back to this when I have more time (and am more awake). ;)

[cara]

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though. ;)

:stillheart:

[SuperFemme]

...I wasn't really drunk, btw. Just trying to be funny. Don't think it worked, though. ;)

:stillheart:

I laughed and visualized Hello Kitty stumbling through the Arwen's living room.

Chuckles.

[julieisafemme]

I wonder sometimes why the horrible, ugly things stay with us the longest? Why do they seem the most true? Why do we blow off the compliments that waaaay outnumber the asshat shit? Why do we feel that the compliments are insincere, but the asshat shit are an accurate assessment of ourselves?

I think for me it is because the bad stuff reinforces my core beliefs about myself. My therapist calls it selective filtering and it is a cognitive error. I am constantly gathering evidence that I am bad. Those things that do not fit the core belief I have are discarded. This is a very hard habit to break. I work at it every day. Some days I do very well and other days it is like I have not learned a thing over the past 4 years of therapy.

[Bit]

I missed this convo... :stillheart:

It struck me how our expression of femininity via clothes/outward appearance is so very different than how straight people express themselves. I peruse some of the fashion sites that are predominantly straight (I presume femmes are there but I haven't seen them), and there is a myriad of women -- in skirts, jeans, dresses, shorts, bumming out, dressing to the hilt, perfect makeup, no makeup -- there is no hint of a hierarchy or "more feminine than..." based on appearance, clothes, etc.
Hi Kim! Yanno, that's something I've thought for a long long time, that most straight women don't obsess over whether or not they're feminine.

Everything I've seen tells me that what most straight women obsess over is whether or not they're fat.

When you really think about it, I think it might be the same thing, because after all, what does our culture tell us is the reason for an otherwise straight woman to diet? It's to be sexy--and that means it's to please the sexual partners.

Is there any way to separate out sexual desirability from femininity? Only by talking about it, working it through, bringing the hidden messages to the forefront (like we're doing here)... and I personally don't see most straight women doing this, because yanno... they don't talk about being feminine, they talk about being fat.


But. Is this culture? Is it socialization? Is it male-centric?

Or is it female-phobic on some level?

Is it even possible to have a male-centric culture without being female-phobic on some level?

What hit me about what you (and others) are saying is that the most common descriptor for femmes is entirely based on our appearance. We sum ourselves and each other up based on how we look. Is this human nature or is it the b-f culture?

When something pervades a culture as completely as looks-ism pervades Western society, it can seem like human nature. I think, though, that it's just so pervasive in the larger culture that it continually washes into our b-f culture. It's going to take a LOT of us doing the consciousness-raising analysis of the sources of societal oppression, over a long period of time, to eradicate it.

The good news is twofold: one, we ARE doing that analysis, and two, we've made a lot of progress in the past several years.

I'm getting at the collective image that a high femme is the best example of femme. We seem to feel that a high femme embodies "femme" best, even if WE don't necessarily wear (or want to wear) that label.

I think you nailed it, and I think we as a collective group see that image, "high femme" whether it's the girly girl or the glamour girl, as the pinnacle of "femmeness" precisely because the larger culture sees it as the pinnacle of femininity... and how can we articulate "Femme" without speaking about "femininity"?

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

I'd be very surprised if this were not very common among those of us who have troubled to do some gender exploration. I think once we start asking ourselves questions like "what makes femininity?" or "what makes true beauty?" we begin to see very clearly that everyone else is beautiful.

I think we don't see it about ourselves because our brainwashing/societal conditioning goes so deep. The moment we can believe on some level that we might be pretty, the OTHER societal conditioning snaps into play--yanno, that one that says, "Shhhh! Don't say anything positive or the gods will strike you DOWN! Don't jinx yourself!"

When you have to fight your way through not just societally implanted images of beauty, but also societally implanted fears of positive thought AND societally implanted fears of being punished, it takes a while to see yourself truly.

I like your Mirror thread, btw. You did a wonderful job with it!

[julieisafemme]

I missed this convo... :stillheart:


Hi Kim! Yanno, that's something I've thought for a long long time, that most straight women don't obsess over whether or not they're feminine.

I think you nailed it, and I think we as a collective group see that image, "high femme" whether it's the girly girl or the glamour girl, as the pinnacle of "femmeness" precisely because the larger culture sees it as the pinnacle of femininity... and how can we articulate "Femme" without speaking about "femininity"?

snip



Bit there is a lot of good stuff to talk about here. I am fresh out of the straight world and I have to agree that I have never heard a straight woman obsess about whether or not she is feminine enough. The standard mom look is not feminine at all. I have spent more time obsessing about being feminine since I came out than I ever did before! I did not imagine that would be that case.

Is the high femme really the pinnacle of femininity for the larger culture? I am not sure if I agree with that. I think femininity is not what the focus of the larger culture is. It seems more like a sexual image is the pinnacle. I don't associate that image with femme or high femme. I guess I don't see it is a highly sexualized image. Femme and high femme are more of a package than an outward sexy image. Am I not seeing things right here? I have a very different idea of what feminine is and how I want to express that since I have come out. Looking or behaving sexy is not part of that.

[Gemme]

I'd be very surprised if this were not very common among those of us who have troubled to do some gender exploration. I think once we start asking ourselves questions like "what makes femininity?" or "what makes true beauty?" we begin to see very clearly that everyone else is beautiful.

I think we don't see it about ourselves because our brainwashing/societal conditioning goes so deep. The moment we can believe on some level that we might be pretty, the OTHER societal conditioning snaps into play--yanno, that one that says, "Shhhh! Don't say anything positive or the gods will strike you DOWN! Don't jinx yourself!"

When you have to fight your way through not just societally implanted images of beauty, but also societally implanted fears of positive thought AND societally implanted fears of being punished, it takes a while to see yourself truly.

I like your Mirror thread, btw. You did a wonderful job with it!


Good points.

Oh, and the Mirror thread was Arwen's idea but I consider it a thread for all of us. :)

[Bit]

Bit there is a lot of good stuff to talk about here. I am fresh out of the straight world and I have to agree that I have never heard a straight woman obsess about whether or not she is feminine enough. The standard mom look is not feminine at all. I have spent more time obsessing about being feminine since I came out than I ever did before! I did not imagine that would be that case.

I sure never expected it either. I've never known anyone who was actually straight to consider their femininity the way we do... and honestly, I wonder if this is partly (or even mostly) because the Queer female community as a whole spent twenty years trying to redefine "woman," and femininity came in for some hard questioning during that period.

Is the high femme really the pinnacle of femininity for the larger culture? I am not sure if I agree with that. I think femininity is not what the focus of the larger culture is. It seems more like a sexual image is the pinnacle.

Huh. I think ya got me on that one.... I'm showing my age in a big way, and the effects of turning my back on pop culture; today's images that straight women are supposed to aspire to... they're the singers, right? The big stars from movies and concerts....

It used to be that "lady" was the pinnacle of femininity--that Donna Reed/Doris Day perfectly-coiffed-and-pearled image--and it used to be that even the comediennes were "proper ladies." (Think Lucy, Mary Tyler Moore, or Carol Burnett...) Even the smoldering sex kittens were still "ladies" when I was paying attention. (Marilyn, especially--she had icon status already when I was a teenager.)

I don't think I would call any of today's big stars "ladies." You're right that the pinnacle has changed.

I don't associate that image with femme or high femme. I guess I don't see it is a highly sexualized image. Femme and high femme are more of a package than an outward sexy image. Am I not seeing things right here? I have a very different idea of what feminine is and how I want to express that since I have come out. Looking or behaving sexy is not part of that.

I dunno Julie... I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

Well, okay, so I don't obey very well, lol... I would just have to be the Abbess or something. Mother Top. :eyebat:

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here? I think I have to go make some tea and get caffeinated... well, anyhow, thank you for responding, Julie, and for your insights about what society promotes these days. I appreciate it.

[Bit]

Good points.

Oh, and the Mirror thread was Arwen's idea but I consider it a thread for all of us. :)

No ducking out on the compliment, love. ;) You are the one who followed through and started it. Tis your gift to the rest of us--even if you benefit from it, tis still your gift to us.

[hippieflowergirl]

I sure never expected it either. I've never known anyone who was actually straight to consider their femininity the way we do... and honestly, I wonder if this is partly (or even mostly) because the Queer female community as a whole spent twenty years trying to redefine "woman," and femininity came in for some hard questioning during that period.

i've wondered if this is due, in part, to a hetero-normative belief that some queer women "want to be men". i think back to the butches and transguys i know who were forced into feminine roles as younger persons? there are so many perceptions of "female", "femme", "feminine", "femininity", etc and gender presentation is so infinite and fluid...damn...now i'm rambling. you're stretching my brain again Bit...

I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

ditto. i dont say that they cant be considered separately or that one is wholly dependent on the other for me...but one certainly feeds my deeply personal satisfaction in the other.

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

while i didnt have the same experience with phases...when i came out i came like i was spring loaded and have never considered myself bi-sexual...i used the word "lesbian" because i had to. there was no word (that i knew of) for how i felt. hell, i couldnt even define who i felt i was because, like you, my vocabulary and language was constrained by my limited life experiences. "lesbian" was the only word i knew. i no longer consider myself a "lesbian". i am a femme. i cant always explain that in words but there's a pit of my stomach understanding that tells me i've hit personally relevant pay dirt.

i think everyone is a sexual being, even the celibate. they simply choose to do something different with that piece of their humanity than i do. sexuality and my personal choices in sexual expression are inseparable from the creature that is "ME". perhaps the confidence, the comfort in my own skin, the "rightness" i feel with regard to being a sexual being is exponentially supported and enhanced by the same confidence, comfort and rightness of being a femme. the defining details of "woman", "lesbian", "genderqueer", "butch", "femme", and etc (no offense/limitations to expression meant by stopping the list there...it's just that it could go on forever) may be subtle to some and screamingly obvious to others.

we each compile our own vocabulary of self-definition based on internal and external experience and environment, and we learn more as we go on ~being~ . as we acknowledge new experiences the defining words and concepts we use come into focus or change, for some of us they change radically. (as an example, i didnt know that being a transensual femme was an option in life until i was in my mid to late 30s. my understanding of the world and experiences with it didnt include the language for the physiological knowledge i felt. my brain didnt comprehend what my cells understood completely.) i dont think that focusing experience ever stops. it just becomes more subtle as we age and come into our authentic selves.

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

(laughing) DITTO

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here?

not only do you make sense...your rambling makes hella sense.

[hippieflowergirl]

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site :)
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*


damn. you're good...

[hippieflowergirl]

I can see that, I suppose, but for myself...it's not so. In one room, I can see the beauty in everyone, except myself. My internal mirror is jacked up.

i'm in high dudgeon at the mo' so excuse me. the fact that any of you amazing women has been shoved into the "less than" dressing room to find some culturally artificial (and not even decently tailored in order to actually be personal) shame to wear is pissing me off! :rant:

Gemmie-poo...like Medusa, Arwen, Diva and Bit...to me you're already so damn beautiful in words...i'm afraid of having to wear sunglasses in order to merely hang out with you. so let's drag that freakin' mirror down here to eye level. i'll get the step stool, you find the dust rag and we'll just haul it down and see what's so darn scary.

Disney does promote the 'one girl is beautiful and perfect and everyone else is an ugly stepsister or non-essential to the story' theory. So does every bit of advertising I see on TV, movies, magazines, etc.

and for that reason, if no other, we should all be writing fairy tales that include the plain/ugly/nerdy/genderqueer/fat/or whatever sister kicking ass, taking names, falling in love only if she damn well feels like it, and living happily ever after.


just sayin'

[Bit]

i cant always explain that in words but there's a pit of my stomach understanding that tells me i've hit personally relevant pay dirt.

Hey darlin! I'm so glad you joined the convo!

What you said right up there is SO true for me about SO many things.... now that I think about it, though, I have words for most of the places in my life. It's here, discussing the gender and Femme parts of my life, that I run out of words and lose my ability to articulate my thoughts... maybe we're all pioneers in this discussion, forging a new trail through the language.


i think everyone is a sexual being, even the celibate. they simply choose to do something different with that piece of their humanity than i do.

Ooops. I wasn't clear enough. I meant that I personally did not have the option to acknowledge myself as a sexual being before I discovered my first partner; I came out of an abusive childhood almost completely squashed and controlled. So for me, adulthood, emancipation, sexuality, being a Lesbian, being a Femme--they all exploded into freedom at once the year I turned 23. That's why I personally cannot actually separate being sexual (whether I do anything with or about it or not) from being Femme.

I've enjoyed your posts. Thanks for the validation that I hadn't lost it after all... tea is being consumed, the brain is waking up.... :cheesy:

[julieisafemme]

snip
I dunno Julie... I will say frankly that sex and being Femme are inescapably entwined for me; I personally cannot be who I am as a Femme without acknowledging myself as a sexual being... if I weren't a sexual being, what would differentiate me from, say, a nun?

Well, okay, so I don't obey very well, lol... I would just have to be the Abbess or something. Mother Top. :eyebat:

I'm not certain how to answer you articulately... I was SO squashed before I came out, and it was only the power of wild lust that drove me to take a chance on loving a woman. There was nothing intellectual about THAT decision, no analysis; I didn't even have the language to understand a discussion like we're having today. Hell, I couldn't even admit that I was a Lesbian for years. When I finally got over the "I'm not a lesbian; I just happened to fall in love with a woman" phase, I stayed stuck in the "I must be bisexual" phase for a couple more years.

So for me, being Femme and being a sexual being, they are tied so tightly together that they're the same thing. For me, sexuality is part of femininity and I cannot see how I could be a Femme in any other way.

BUT certainly I am not a sexual being like the stars of pop culture are; to begin with, their image of sexuality is my image of famine, so I'm stymied at the get-go.

Does any of this even make sense or am I rambling like crazy here? I think I have to go make some tea and get caffeinated... well, anyhow, thank you for responding, Julie, and for your insights about what society promotes these days. I appreciate it.
[/QUOTE]

I was not being clear here. I not feminine or a femme for someone else's pleasure. I own my sexuality now and it is not caught up and attached to a idealistic, stylized version of the sexy straight woman. I did not come out for a partner. I came out for ME. I told my family and all those close to me that I was gay before I had ever met a butch face-to-face. I don't feel confined anymore by straight sexuality, practices or presentation. So to me being a femme is so much more than just who I sleep with or my orientation.

Tea is good!!! My beverage of choice.

[Gemme]

No ducking out on the compliment, love. ;) You are the one who followed through and started it. Tis your gift to the rest of us--even if you benefit from it, tis still your gift to us.

:cheesy:

:present:

[Gemme]

i'm in high dudgeon at the mo' so excuse me. the fact that any of you amazing women has been shoved into the "less than" dressing room to find some culturally artificial (and not even decently tailored in order to actually be personal) shame to wear is pissing me off! :rant:

Gemmie-poo...like Medusa, Arwen, Diva and Bit...to me you're already so damn beautiful in words...i'm afraid of having to wear sunglasses in order to merely hang out with you. so let's drag that freakin' mirror down here to eye level. i'll get the step stool, you find the dust rag and we'll just haul it down and see what's so darn scary.

and for that reason, if no other, we should all be writing fairy tales that include the plain/ugly/nerdy/genderqueer/fat/or whatever sister kicking ass, taking names, falling in love only if she damn well feels like it, and living happily ever after.


just sayin'

No sunglasses required!

I've done some work on myself, so I'm at the point where I'm less adament in my defense of how horrid I am (usually) but it's more of an "Eh.." thing for me. People see the good things about me and are able to downplay or see past the less than brilliant things about me. Me? I see it all. Maybe because I live with it 24/7 and I tend to continually focus in on my problem areas (physically as well as emotionally and psychologically) so that the molehill becomes a mountain. But even the good things that I can recognize are like, "Well, I can write okay. I'm an okay person, morally 'n all."

I need to find a way to get excited about myself...about being ME. I'm sure it's in me somewhere. I just have to find that cheerleader part of me for myself. I think threads like this one and the Mirrors thread are helping me to maybe be able to do that in the future.

[Puplove]

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.


Jee-ZUS, Medusa, I hope that, since then, you have come to KNOW that when you walk into a room being who you are, people fall in love with you right and left - your smile, laugh, voice, serious no-bullshit talk, all-round presence, what you say, the vibes you put off, the shiny happy feelings and amazing energy you bring into a room. Not to mention the flawless makeup and hair and amazing outfits (but those are secondary to the feel and the WHO you are).

Size of body has nothing to do with it. Size of character and amazing powerful positive presence has everything to do with it. I harbor a secret case of Medusa envy, even though I really do like myself and feel lucky that I think my own presence fits me peachy keen.

Okay, back to today's topic...someday I will actually keep current on threads...

[labete]

I just want to say thank you to every one of you amazing contributors to this thread. There's so much substance here to take in, process, respond to.

I, too, have felt that there was a femme hierarchy and that "high femmes" (I really don't like that expression. I have heard the "low femme" term, applied by others and as self-labeling, but never in a flattering way.) were on top and I was somewhere much closer to the bottom. My reinforcement for that idea has mostly been from butches, but I've moved on. I decided part of the point (for me) of having the "queer" be part of my identity was what it implied to me about getting to make my own rules. I may or may not be anyone else's idea of what femme ought to be, but I am damn good at being me.

For me, femme is my gender identity, although that is big enough to encompass "woman" and "girl" and "female" as well. You can't take my femme away from me, regardless of what I wear or what I'm doing at any given time. I've been known to wear skirts, dresses, heels, but it's a form of drag for me. I mostly live in jeans or other casual pants (not athletic gear outside unless I am engaging in athletic activity or my house is burning down) and low-heeled boots, mules, sandals. I find that I get more external reinforcement for wearing the feminine drag, from strangers as well as friends and lovers. I've witnessed straight women being rewarded or punished socially for the way they choose to perform femininity as well. I've never considered only dressing up to go to a bar if I was partnered, though, nor do I know that anyone has considered me competition since tenth grade or so.

It saddens me that so many of us have been the victims of vicious femme sisters insecure in themselves and needing to cut us down to make themselves feel superior. I only know of three times in my life that I've been specifically targeted for ugly gossip, once by my (family of origin) sister and twice by masculine queers, and those were rough enough and femmes did participate in the feeding frenzy. If anyone still believes that I hoard man-jocks or am a coke fiend, well, I don't know what to tell you. PM me the juicy bits. :brainsucker: Seriously, though, I avoid those I find to be gossips (in offline life), because I don't like to be around that energy. I find it ugly and draining.

[blush]

It saddens me that so many of us have been the victims of vicious femme sisters insecure in themselves and needing to cut us down to make themselves feel superior. I only know of three times in my life that I've been specifically targeted for ugly gossip, once by my (family of origin) sister and twice by masculine queers, and those were rough enough and femmes did participate in the feeding frenzy. If anyone still believes that I hoard man-jocks or am a coke fiend, well, I don't know what to tell you. PM me the juicy bits. :brainsucker: Seriously, though, I avoid those I find to be gossips (in offline life), because I don't like to be around that energy. I find it ugly and draining.

Well said, labete. I was thinking as I was reading your post that for every horror story (and I've got them too) about femme "friends," I have 10 kumbaya stories about femme friends.

Truth is, other femmes just "get it" in a way that no one else does. Other femmes get the fierceness, the invisibility, the "am I femme enough," and the endurance tests of our loves.

[Diva]

Speaking of internal mirrors.

I am really resonating with the posts here. SUCH good space.

I used to have a kind of reverse-Cinderella complex going on around my weight. I would scan the room when I was around other women to confirm that I , indeed, was the fattest one in the room. A lot of that self-hating bullshit was the need for my widdle baby feelings to stay firmly planted in their diaper because working through them was much scarier than sitting in a pile of shitty feelings.

At one of the first events I ever attended, waaaay back in 2003, I met up with a bunch of Butch/Femme/Queer folks in Kansas City. Some of those very same people are on this site :)
Up until that event, I had only shown myself from the "myspace" angle. You know the one: You hold the camera WAAAAYYY above your head and look up innocently so that all of your chins are hidden, your wrinkles fall to the back, and you look ever SOOOO tiny!!! WIDDLE BITTY THAANG!
Needless to say, I had much trepidation about attending and went on a CRAZY crash diet, eating ice cubes, riding an exercise bike for 4 hours a night, taking laxatives, and wrapping myself in a rubber suit while doing housework. Before the gathering in Kansas City, I lost about 30 pounds in the 6 weeks prior, all the while telling myself that I "wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going wasnt going".
I went.
I was scared that people would judge me for being fat. I was scared that people wouldnt like me. I was afraid of being the fattest person there.
Over all, the party was amazing and painful for 100 different reasons.

Once home, a "friend" sent me an email that had been circulating between 2 other Femmes talking about how I was "much fatter than they expected" and that I "was probably fatter than X and Y combined."

It was painful but I think a small part of me already had a nice soft bed made for the validation of my self-hatred.

The moral of the story is that my Princess often felt like "everyone who isnt me".

I could have had a very nice after school special about "tricking" everyone into thinking I was skinny and arriving with my fat self and people falling in love with me anyway. It didnt happen because I made no room for anyone to love me. (and dont get me wrong, I wasnt responsible for the gross behavior or judgment coming from other folks). But I walked into that party *expecting* to not be good enough. Because it was what I knew. It was what was comfortable for me. It was what fit my history.

Im writing a new life every day now, but I never erase the past.

I lost my train of thought, but the rainbow vomit looks kinda nice on the floor here. *tip-toe*


Medusa,
I think You say so much of what some of us are feeling here I just had to repeat is, as blush did.

Similar to Your story, I was nervous about going to a big ol' "family party" in 2007 in Dallas. I was looking forward to meeting everyone, but once they saw me, what would they think THEN? Right?

One of the most empowering things for me ~ and there were 3 things that weekend that DID give me a great deal of personal power ~ was hearing Your letter to Your Mama, Medusa, during the spoken word segment of the cabaret deal. I remember all the pieces of paper....I remember being mesmerized by Your passion, Your fierceness. And I remember thinking, "Gimme some~a THAT!" because I was intoxicated by that fierce passion!!! Here was this big, beautiful bombshell beauty who was "screaming" about her heart's desires.

And it was during Your letter in spoken word that I fell in love with Medusa.

What did You DO with those bits of paper? I hope to that Wire Sculpture 'Dusa that You have it in a safe place. It should be in every Femme Manual.........jus' sayin'......

:bowdown:

[Arwen]

Well said, labete. I was thinking as I was reading your post that for every horror story (and I've got them too) about femme "friends," I have 10 kumbaya stories about femme friends.

Truth is, other femmes just "get it" in a way that no one else does. Other femmes get the fierceness, the invisibility, the "am I femme enough," and the endurance tests of our loves.

Labete did make a good point and I think you have really done so as well, Blush.

One thing that stands out for me here is that I know I fixate on the bad examples. I lock them into my mind as mirrors for myself to avoid at all costs.

I won't be like X. I'll never treat my lover the way X treats her. Etc.

Wouldn't it be lovely if I could instead use the mirrors of those femmes that I admire?

Then I could look within and say that in this situation, I will be more like Pup. And in this other one, I will don my Blush armor. Or I will use the voice of Medusa and the passion of Gemme. Or that I will love my partner like e.

A much nicer way of living I think. It is better to have role models than avoidance techniques.

I think I will try ...no not try, right Yoda? I think I will take this on as part of my own interior landscaping. Thanks. You truly made a difference in my life.

And thank you to LaBete for waking this thread up. I learn something from every post here..

[Deborah]

[QUOTE=Arwen;30633][FONT=Georgia]

Then I could look within and say that in this situation, I will be more like Pup. And in this other one, I will don my Blush armor. Or I will use the voice of Medusa and the passion of Gemme. Or that I will love my partner like [COLOR=Red]e.


[SIZE="3"]DITTO... and smart like Arwen....

[labete]

Well said, labete. I was thinking as I was reading your post that for every horror story (and I've got them too) about femme "friends," I have 10 kumbaya stories about femme friends.

Truth is, other femmes just "get it" in a way that no one else does. Other femmes get the fierceness, the invisibility, the "am I femme enough," and the endurance tests of our loves.

Very good point, blush. I have to admit, though, that it took me a long time to get comfortable with femme friends, and a lot of what got me there was this community, these people, you. Y'all can be intimidating as hell for someone who's trying to stake out her space inside the femme identity, and the ones who aren't somewhat intimidating generally also aren't interesting (to me, in their online personas). I mean, yeah, I actually do have a drawer full of cute socks with stripes or spots or flowers or whatever on them, but I don't really want to discuss them. I want to talk about inhabiting femme and supporting butch and growing as a person and current events and queer parenting challenges and such and occasionally lolcats or shopping or work. So I had to get past these negative internal judgements telling me I wasn't "femme enough" or pretty enough or hadn't read enough gender theory or otherwise just wasn't up to snuff among all these intelligent, beautiful, fierce, wise femmes.


Labete did make a good point and I think you have really done so as well, Blush.

One thing that stands out for me here is that I know I fixate on the bad examples. I lock them into my mind as mirrors for myself to avoid at all costs.

I won't be like X. I'll never treat my lover the way X treats her. Etc.

Wouldn't it be lovely if I could instead use the mirrors of those femmes that I admire?

Then I could look within and say that in this situation, I will be more like Pup. And in this other one, I will don my Blush armor. Or I will use the voice of Medusa and the passion of Gemme. Or that I will love my partner like e.

A much nicer way of living I think. It is better to have role models than avoidance techniques.

I think I will try ...no not try, right Yoda? I think I will take this on as part of my own interior landscaping. Thanks. You truly made a difference in my life.

And thank you to LaBete for waking this thread up. I learn something from every post here..

Arwen, this makes me sad, and at the same time glad you are inspired to change your perspective. For the longest time, I really didn't have any wants or goals of my own, and was busy just trying to take care of the people I was responsible for (kids, husband/partner, mom, boss, clients) and do it all to standards I'd absorbed rather than built.

I was lacking internal guidance, and I had to get me some of that to save what sanity I had left. So I started thinking about what kind of person I wanted to be, and how that was different from what kind of person I was. That led me to ideas about things I needed to build in myself, and I looked around for examples of people who exhibited those and watched what and how they did them. Yes, I also looked at things I didn't want to be, but that turned out to be too broad for me. If I don't want to be someone who cheats on lovers, for example, that still leaves the questions of whether I want to have lovers at all, whether I want casual dating or relationship dating, whether I want monogamy or consensual polyamory -- it was just too broad for me and I needed to narrow it down.

One thing I want is to be good at standing up for myself, standing firm but being open to the possibility that I was wrong or misinformed or that another perspective would be more beneficial to me. I saw my beloved sister e doing this in a way that I found to be simultaneously strong and gentle, firm but open, and adopted her as a role model for that. I'm still very much working on this and other personal growth goals, but it's a lot easier for me personally to grow toward a positive than away from a negative.

[Medusa]

Medusa,
I think You say so much of what some of us are feeling here I just had to repeat is, as blush did.

Similar to Your story, I was nervous about going to a big ol' "family party" in 2007 in Dallas. I was looking forward to meeting everyone, but once they saw me, what would they think THEN? Right?

One of the most empowering things for me ~ and there were 3 things that weekend that DID give me a great deal of personal power ~ was hearing Your letter to Your Mama, Medusa, during the spoken word segment of the cabaret deal. I remember all the pieces of paper....I remember being mesmerized by Your passion, Your fierceness. And I remember thinking, "Gimme some~a THAT!" because I was intoxicated by that fierce passion!!! Here was this big, beautiful bombshell beauty who was "screaming" about her heart's desires.

And it was during Your letter in spoken word that I fell in love with Medusa.

What did You DO with those bits of paper? I hope to that Wire Sculpture 'Dusa that You have it in a safe place. It should be in every Femme Manual.........jus' sayin'......

:bowdown:


Thank You, Janeylove.

I have no idea where that piece of writing is. Im sure it inhabits a piece of a dark corner somewhere in one of the boxes in the office (hopefully).

It was a paper liner off of one of those room service trays, a scrap writing tablet from a last-minute, mad-dash attempt for anything, something to say. I almost called Eve that night and told her to cancel me because I had been listening for the muse up until weeks before that performance and she just wasnt giving it up.
I think that piece of writing was, for me, one of the most healing things I have ever done. Not just writing it, but saying it out loud in front of people. Showing my hurt spots, showing my rage, showing that I was pissed right the hell off.
Many people do not know this but there were some folks in the room that night that I had become estranged from. My ex was also there.
I caught myself as I was sitting in the bathroom messing with my hair getting all nervous and jerky. There were a million thoughts running through my head. A million pieces of anger and sadness and joy and resentment and disappointment and love and hate.
And there I was, this thing in a gold lame' dress, covered from head to toe in glitter, wearing gold gogo boots and I felt shiny and starry and new and bright and enormous (not size-wise, but spirit-wise), because I had maintained myself at multiple points during the weekend when there were some shitty situations in my face.
I looked at myself in the mirror and knew that I was the woman that *I* thought I was and not the woman that *they* thought I was.

And by god, was I fucking fabulous.

So I sat down and scribbled out my rage, leaning in an uncomfortable chair and pumping my body into that writing like I was playing a piano. Hard and fast and racing the clock.

And when I performed, I spoke to not just my Momma, but to the people in that room that were part of that hole. The people who let me down. The people who hurt me. The people who betrayed my love for them.

I let go of all of it in front of that crowd in Dallas and nobody but me knew it.

I guess you could say that I forced everyone into my masturbatory therapy - but really, isnt that what all poetry is on some level.

When I was done speaking, a rush of people surrounded me and hugged me, thanked me, applauded me, kissed me. There were a lot of tears. I felt loved.
I felt a tremendous shouldering of that rage from my sisters. I felt like every woman in that room knew exactly what I was talking about and that every one of them would help me rip to shreds the pain and anger.

I keep that moment tied up with red string in the memory part of my mind. I have rarely felt that kind of rush of empowerment where the shitty stuff that was ripped out by pain was replaced with shining diamonds. But it was.

And they are still there. About a million carats worth.

<3

[apretty]

Medusa-

i'm think that reclaiming your voice (having it been stolen/ripped/shushed/beat from you) can only be done before an audience.

i say this because i get so caught up in the masturbatory-self-help-therapy-non-consensual judger in my head, simultaneously wanting to *protect* people from all that is me (probably about protecting my*self* but that's not what i tell myself in the moment), while needing to be *witnessed* for once. witnessed where you (i) don't need saving that won't be forthcoming and am *in complete control* of my vulnerability/sexuality/body/voice/everything.

ha, this probably could be an entire thread, women/femme and their artistic expression ...and i just had this ah-ha moment, thank you.

[evolveme]

One thing I want is to be good at standing up for myself, standing firm but being open to the possibility that I was wrong or misinformed or that another perspective would be more beneficial to me. I saw my beloved sister e doing this in a way that I found to be simultaneously strong and gentle, firm but open, and adopted her as a role model for that. I'm still very much working on this and other personal growth goals, but it's a lot easier for me personally to grow toward a positive than away from a negative.

It touched me so much to come across this. When I think about it now, I've watched you become someone who protects herself more fiercely when necessary and more firmly all the time. You are not someone for whom the lesson of boundary maintenance is on eternal repeat (unless it is and you've managed to hide this from me terribly well). I've watched you, even recently, setting boundaries with those you love even when it pains you. I marvel at your strength as much as your stamina.

When I think of you, it is your openness, the generosity of your love, and the way that you are dedicated to improving yourself - and that you DO - that inspires me. All of these things, naturally, have benefited me in some way, and so you see here that I am selfish compared to you. It's what I see about you that makes me more in love with you all the time, as my friend and as my sister. It's the part of you I wish would rub off a little. I want to be the kind of friend that you deserve.



I caught myself as I was sitting in the bathroom messing with my hair getting all nervous and jerky. There were a million thoughts running through my head. A million pieces of anger and sadness and joy and resentment and disappointment and love and hate.
And there I was, this thing in a gold lame' dress, covered from head to toe in glitter, wearing gold gogo boots and I felt shiny and starry and new and bright and enormous (not size-wise, but spirit-wise), because I had maintained myself at multiple points during the weekend when there were some shitty situations in my face.
I looked at myself in the mirror and knew that I was the woman that *I* thought I was and not the woman that *they* thought I was.

And by god, was I fucking fabulous.

So I sat down and scribbled out my rage, leaning in an uncomfortable chair and pumping my body into that writing like I was playing a piano. Hard and fast and racing the clock.

And when I performed, I spoke to not just my Momma, but to the people in that room that were part of that hole. The people who let me down. The people who hurt me. The people who betrayed my love for them.

I let go of all of it in front of that crowd in Dallas and nobody but me knew it.

I guess you could say that I forced everyone into my masturbatory therapy - but really, isnt that what all poetry is on some level.

---
And they are still there. About a million carats worth.

<3

Yes. It is a kind of masturbatory therapy, and as such, I submit that more of us should be doing more of it more of the time.

Certainly, by the sound of it, you should. Just look at the afterglow from that one, sugar.

[labete]

It touched me so much to come across this. When I think about it now, I've watched you become someone who protects herself more fiercely when necessary and more firmly all the time. You are not someone for whom the lesson of boundary maintenance is on eternal repeat (unless it is and you've managed to hide this from me terribly well). I've watched you, even recently, setting boundaries with those you love even when it pains you. I marvel at your strength as much as your stamina.

When I think of you, it is your openness, the generosity of your love, and the way that you are dedicated to improving yourself - and that you DO - that inspires me. All of these things, naturally, have benefited me in some way, and so you see here that I am selfish compared to you. It's what I see about you that makes me more in love with you all the time, as my friend and as my sister. It's the part of you I wish would rub off a little. I want to be the kind of friend that you deserve.
Darlin', you're one of the best friends I've ever had. You should move back where we can go out together again, but I try not to hold your geographic deficiency against you too much. You inspire me and I inspire you, sounds life a pretty good deal to me.

And Jiminy Hopping Christmas yes on the boundary issues. I have worked hard on those and gotten so much better. And my quality of life is much improved as a result. My honey's been inspiring me there, which is a great quality for her to have, in my book. Reinforcement is good for me.



Yes. It is a kind of masturbatory therapy, and as such, I submit that more of us should be doing more of it more of the time.

Certainly, by the sound of it, you should. Just look at the afterglow from that one, sugar.
I agree. The public masturbatory therapy is powerful and empowering and often therapeutic or cathartic for the audience as well. I love a good catharsis.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I just wanted to put in this photo, just published today about steel workers in Sheffield during WWII...

This picture really speaks to me about how *I* am feminine and the things *I* enjoy. And that - I know the picture is staged for the journalist of the time - but that she is dressed the way she is, with heels, doing something she loves and supporting her family by doing so - and contributing to the needs asked of her...

few things make me feel "right on sistah!" but this pic really does.

http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00296/Pg-21-steel-worker-_296182s.jpg

I don't think of this job as masculine and therefor more valued. I think of the unacceptance of femininity to BE there and how hard it is to be taken seriously when I do the same thing (well, not fixing a tank. though my god, I would LOVE to) wearing my own femininity.

One of the biggest achievements, for me, was changing the bearings in a 4x4 drifeshaft, in the jungle, and not cutting my nails to do it. and I didn't break one. And I wore daisy flip flops. my symbols of femininity while I do something someone thinks I shouldn't be doing, while I'm doing it, is my happy "fuck you. I'm all fluffy a cute and I can do it better than you can, @sshole." to those it seems bizzare to.

and she's not all pin up about it either. rock!

[Bit]

I like this picture! Thanks very much for posting it, honeybarbara. It might have been a posed photo, but she sure looks like she knows exactly what she's looking at and exactly how to fix it.

I think it's amazing you changed the bearings in the driveshaft without breaking a nail!

At this point in my life, doing anything without breaking a nail is an accomplishment for me. I never knew they could get so... well, so careworn. I guess I know what that word means now in a way I didn't used to. And I know something else, too; I know that my nails are more a symbol to me of my femininity than I thought they were.

It's really ironic that a huge marker of femininity, bleeding, is what caused the problems with my own personal symbol of femininity, my nails. They're weakened from anemia. Who knew?! It would probably help if I kept them polished--another one of my personal markers of femininity--but they're in dishwater every day and I hate chipped nail polish with a passion. *wry smile*

[imperfect_cupcake]

it does suck, doesn't it. I had to give up my nails. I've now got a much sorter version and they ok at "sport" length. But when I went to kuala lumpur and looked at the nail art... the nail designs were far beyond anything I had ever seen before. it was like the gals had little cakes on their fingers. The expressions of them made my heart ache I wanted a set so bad.

Inki felt bad for me so she took me to a hair clip store and I bought about equal to £5 worth of jeweled and decorated and cutesified hair clips (which in maylasian was A LOT). She also wanted to buy me a few fabulous false eyelashes (long ones with blue feathers and gems) but I thought it was getting out of hand.

I'm so glad she understands me and knows how to help me find replacement parts for things I can't have that are expressive of who I am... she helps me pick out shoes, eyelashes, hello kitty hair clips, make up... it so HELPS to have that kind of interest in my femininity in a partner.

If there are things that helps make up for your nails, indulge. seriously.

Plus nail treatments can help. I have hideously weak, peely nails. there's stuff I can get that helps, I just don't always remember to put it on *eyeball roll at self*

[Bit]

To the very sweet friend who clued me in: Thank you, I will try that!

Her advice for my nails? Prenatal vitamins, half of one a day. Hey, maybe it'll give me back my symbol, eh?

Honeybarbara, I hadn't thought of "replacing" my nails with other feminine symbols, but yanno, it's coming on time to replace my hair scrunchies--I almost always wear my hair tied back--and maybe it would be a really good idea to choose prettier ones this time. I really hadn't thought of that, thank you--and thanks to your sweetie for thinking of it, too!

It's odd, how symbols of femininity are so important to me. I didn't expect this... I guess when my nails were long and strong and my hair was still blonde and my skin was young, I took it for granted that I didn't have to worry about "looking feminine enough." Now that age and anemia have taken a toll, I find that unless I "look feminine enough" it badly affects whether or not I feel sexually attractive.

I don't think that my outward signs of femininity should be so strongly tied to whether or not I feel sexy---sexy should be about being female, which is the reality of my body, NOT about looking feminine, which is basically society's images (and images to me are illusion, not reality)--but I honestly don't know how to untie the two things. To me, looking feminine by society's standards is required before I can feel sexy.

This is REALLY disconcerting for an old feminist like me. I really don't like it. *wry look*

[christie]

Bit -

I struggled for the majority of my life with feeling feminine. Its not hard to see the conundrum when you look at what society called "pretty" - 5'2" "barbie doll" blond haired, blue eyed, tanned, petite lil thangs. At 6'1, redheaded and blue eyed, pale white skin that burns at the mere mention of the sun. Well, I always felt so out of place.

It took a good number of years to come to the self-realization that my femininity and feeling sexy came needed to start on the inside. It certainly didn't hurt that redheads became "in". It didn't hurt that I am more comfortable in beautiful heels/stilettoes with great legs.

Over the years, my "fuck what everyone else thinks" attitude has really made me find my sense of self and sexiness. I am just as sexy in a killah dress and heels, a power suit, or in a pair of baggy basketball shorts, tank top and do-rag (my weekend home project attire). I have to decide that I am sexy. I can't let anyone or anything decide that for me. That is my power and mine alone.

In as far as the "symbols" of femininity, I admit that keeping my nails done is a priority for me. I have long, thin hands (7 1/2" from tip to base) and I feel positively undone without them. I can palm a basketball or grab an octave on the piano and without my nails manicured and polished, I feel like I have "man hands". That and lovely shoes are probably my only two "symbols."

Darlin', get up and look in that mirror and tell yourself that you are sexy. You are pretty. You are smart. You are (fill in the blank). Literally do this. Its amazing after a while that you will begin to believe it.

Christie

[Gemme]

Bit -

I struggled for the majority of my life with feeling feminine. Its not hard to see the conundrum when you look at what society called "pretty" - 5'2" "barbie doll" blond haired, blue eyed, tanned, petite lil thangs. At 6'1, redheaded and blue eyed, pale white skin that burns at the mere mention of the sun. Well, I always felt so out of place.

It took a good number of years to come to the self-realization that my femininity and feeling sexy came needed to start on the inside. It certainly didn't hurt that redheads became "in". It didn't hurt that I am more comfortable in beautiful heels/stilettoes with great legs.

Over the years, my "fuck what everyone else thinks" attitude has really made me find my sense of self and sexiness. I am just as sexy in a killah dress and heels, a power suit, or in a pair of baggy basketball shorts, tank top and do-rag (my weekend home project attire). I have to decide that I am sexy. I can't let anyone or anything decide that for me. That is my power and mine alone.

In as far as the "symbols" of femininity, I admit that keeping my nails done is a priority for me. I have long, thin hands (7 1/2" from tip to base) and I feel positively undone without them. I can palm a basketball or grab an octave on the piano and without my nails manicured and polished, I feel like I have "man hands". That and lovely shoes are probably my only two "symbols."

Darlin', get up and look in that mirror and tell yourself that you are sexy. You are pretty. You are smart. You are (fill in the blank). Literally do this. Its amazing after a while that you will begin to believe it.

Christie

The funny thing is.....I'd kill to be taller and to have red hair! To each their own, yes?

I agree with most of your line of thinking except one thing....the 'standard' ideal for who/what is beautiful is aimed more towards those in the middle of the height chart....around 5 foot 4 or 5 foot 5, I think. At least, as someone who is 5 foot one and a half inches tall, that is my experience. It's assumed that I am not strong because of my lack of height, which, I do understand is instinctual. The tallest, strongest, prettiest mate is the one that is typically chosen (depending on the particular species).

Has anyone ever noticed the switcheroo that occurs between the animal kingdom and us humans? There, it's the male and masculine that is the most colorful and designed to catch a potential mate's eyes, but the reverse is true for us in that the female and feminine partners are the ones to use color and bright and shiny things to catch our partner's attention.

:veggie:

[Bit]

It swings back and forth, Gemme--there have been times in history when men were QUITE the peacocks; I think Elizabethan times were one of them. Also, I think maybe other cultures than ours allow for more showiness in men.

Christie, my feminist mind totally gets it... tis something deeper at work in me, I guess, something I haven't figured out yet, that makes these symbols of femininity so important to me. My hands aren't mannish, but to me without long polished nails they look ugly and then I feel less feminine. It's REALLY disconcerting to understand this about myself. I don't want these things to be tied together, and I thought I had succeeded in UNTYING them... but here I am again. *rueful smile*

[Gemme]

It swings back and forth, Gemme--there have been times in history when men were QUITE the peacocks; I think Elizabethan times were one of them. Also, I think maybe other cultures than ours allow for more showiness in men.



*nods*

I think you are right. 'Showiness' is appreciated more in other countries than ours. So many of our cultures here in the U.S. emphasize a muted, almost subversive, 'showiness'. I probably could find another word other than 'showiness', but I like it. :)

[Deborah]

On the flip side of the high femme, I've also heard a lot of shit from femmes and trans/butches about high femmes. That they are stupid, "too much work," ALWAYS submissive, ALWAYS stone, and on and on...

Oh my I know this is old but I just have to say what a crock.....stupid, submissive, ALWAYS anything....too much work for someone not use to a femme with a mind of their own....thats what I have to say to those people...pfft

[Venus007]

Does it make me a wicked femme because this gives me dark dirty thoughts?

Clothes swap.

Oakland.

Realization.

Dressed up, we are beautiful.

But in bra and panties, thrown in a room together? AND...not a butch in sight?

We're fucking awesome.

[Kate09]

Bit -

I struggled for the majority of my life with feeling feminine. Its not hard to see the conundrum when you look at what society called "pretty" - 5'2" "barbie doll" blond haired, blue eyed, tanned, petite lil thangs. At 6'1, redheaded and blue eyed, pale white skin that burns at the mere mention of the sun. Well, I always felt so out of place.



Christie

I've so often felt the exact same way. And for myself, i need to add my weight to this list...bc so often i feel that fat cant be pretty or feminine.

This is something i heard one day that made me SO happy to be a femme tho.. gotta love it.

YouTube- To all of the kick ass, beautiful fierce femmes out there...

[Lillie]

great clip..I enjoyed it..and hy is fabulous!

[blush]

****bump****

This thread needs some action!

[Gemme]

****bump****

This thread needs some action!

Action pusher. :blink:

[Passionaria]

I think this is a good place to express this. It's about femme sisterhood. I had an experience with a femme friend today, that in my mind is worthy of a public conversation. It's about how we do or don't respect each others hearts.

****** is a friend of mine. ****** is interested in my ex. My ex and I have been apart for over a year, but are still close friends. Everyone who knows us, knows this. Well they have been flirting, and playing with "that" energy (please don't make me watch) Today this femme had the maturity, and consideration to have a heart to heart talk with me about her feelings. And went so far as to ask for my blessing before going further, as to not hurt me.

I can't tell you how much I respect her, and appreciate her honesty and care. She was worried about talking to me, and felt guilty, not addressing it. Now she could have gone a lot of different ways with those feelings, but she decided to act like an adult and address it. It hurts to watch people we love(ed) move on. If it is done callously, and disrespectfully the pain only deepens. It wasn't a fun conversation for either of us, but her care helped the pain, she knew she was causing me. So BRAVA too her, for acting like a real woman, and a true sister.THAT I can respect, that's being REAL. In my mind that's how sisters should act. How do you other femmes feel about this?????

:rose: Pashi

[Julie]

Passionaria,

Thank you for sharing this. I think you and your friend have a beautiful relationship and are so blessed to have been able to have this dialog. It is obvious your break up was done with respect as well, and this shows much for who both you and your ex are as human beings.

My previous previous... There was a friend of mine who had a crush on her. She met Rachel at my son's Bar Mitzvah and asked me how I would feel if she asked Rachel out. I told Rachel what she said - Rachel said... Oh, she's cute! They dated and I was very happy for them. When my previous (not previous previous) broke up - I received a phone call from a friend and she asked me if I would put in a good word for her with my ex. This offended me.

I believe there are reasons why we split up in relationships. I also believe that once you love a person, that it is not possible to be so bitter, hateful and angry - at least not for me. I cannot go from loving to hating. I do not really understand this dynamic in people, and sadly, I question who they are as human beings and if they ever truly did love.

Good for you, your friend and your ex. I wish the three of you a lifelong friendship, filled with love.

Julie

[Passionaria]

Passionaria,

Thank you for sharing this. I think you and your friend have a beautiful relationship and are so blessed to have been able to have this dialog. It is obvious your break up was done with respect as well, and this shows much for who both you and your ex are as human beings.

My previous previous... There was a friend of mine who had a crush on her. She met Rachel at my son's Bar Mitzvah and asked me how I would feel if she asked Rachel out. I told Rachel what she said - Rachel said... Oh, she's cute! They dated and I was very happy for them. When my previous (not previous previous) broke up - I received a phone call from a friend and she asked me if I would put in a good word for her with my ex. This offended me.

I believe there are reasons why we split up in relationships. I also believe that once you love a person, that it is not possible to be so bitter, hateful and angry - at least not for me. I cannot go from loving to hating. I do not really understand this dynamic in people, and sadly, I question who they are as human beings and if they ever truly did love.

Good for you, your friend and your ex. I wish the three of you a lifelong friendship, filled with love.

Julie

Hi Julie,
Thank you for your kind supportive words, I appreciate it a lot. I really like what you have to say about love, and how once you have loved someone that you always carry some kind of feelings for them. I find the same to be true for me. Although they can do things that really hurt me or make me angry at times, I don't know how to throw them out of my heart. I'm not always sure that is a good thing :confused: but it is true, I suspect for many. I find that bitterness comes when there is unresolved hurt.

I also appreciate your examples about how another femme approached you, regarding your ex, made a difference for you. It may seem like common sense for us, but I think it is worth expressing. These basic acts of respect and kindness are building blocks for a healthy community.
:rose: Pashi

[Julie]

Although they can do things that really hurt me or make me angry at times, I don't know how to throw them out of my heart. I'm not always sure that is a good thing :confused: but it is true, I suspect for many. I find that bitterness comes when there is unresolved hurt.
:rose: Pashi

Passionaria,

You really struck me with one part of your post, and that is what I am quoting.

I have had anger thrown at me from exes and I know I have done the same thing... And always, it is because there is an unresolved hurt. Which is why I try to resolve it with them, always - so we can heal and remember the love we once shared. I will always go back to Rachel who died 4 1/2 years ago, and had we not resolved - I just cannot imagine how my heart would hurt and always wonder.

In my very little world, I believe it is a good thing. It shows the kind of human being you are. That you have a loving, understanding and nurturing heart.

Thank You and I so wish for you, a most beautiful holiday.

Julie

[Gemme]

I believe there are reasons why we split up in relationships. I also believe that once you love a person, that it is not possible to be so bitter, hateful and angry - at least not for me. I cannot go from loving to hating. I do not really understand this dynamic in people, and sadly, I question who they are as human beings and if they ever truly did love.


Julie

"Truth is, Great do need Hate to survive, so I..."

Will Smith


Semi-related, but that line is what popped into my head reading this part of your post. And then immediately afterward, I remembered a video I'd seen of someone talking about how love can translate to hate but I can't find that, so you have the lyric above.

*shrug*

Basically, here's my thoughts (and what was the core of the video I saw):

If you love someone enough to love them...REALLY love them, then you have the power to hate them with the same range and depth and intensity. Our world is all energy. We exchange energy all of the time. Emotions are all energy, regardless of what they portray. So, someone that loved me 'to infinity and beyond' has the power to hate me with the exact same amount of energy, just going in the 'uh oh' direction.

Now, there are those who are able to channel their energy peaks into something more productive than hatred. Unfortunately, I am not one of them. My capacity for hate is very high, as is my capacity for love and everything in between. I've been told I'm a hateful person, and perhaps I am. I know my wit lies on the sharper side of things.

For me, I look at things pretty much the opposite that you do. If someone loves me with richness and intensity and rocks me to my very core with it, I know that that love can go the other way with the same vastness. So, for me, it's not that they (or I) LACK humanity because they're (I'm) capable of hate, it's because they (I) ARE (AM) human that they (I) feel hate. The deeper the emotion, the more human they (I) are (am).

[Gemme]

I think this is a good place to express this. It's about femme sisterhood. I had an experience with a femme friend today, that in my mind is worthy of a public conversation. It's about how we do or don't respect each others hearts.

****** is a friend of mine. ****** is interested in my ex. My ex and I have been apart for over a year, but are still close friends. Everyone who knows us, knows this. Well they have been flirting, and playing with "that" energy (please don't make me watch) Today this femme had the maturity, and consideration to have a heart to heart talk with me about her feelings. And went so far as to ask for my blessing before going further, as to not hurt me.

I can't tell you how much I respect her, and appreciate her honesty and care. She was worried about talking to me, and felt guilty, not addressing it. Now she could have gone a lot of different ways with those feelings, but she decided to act like an adult and address it. It hurts to watch people we love(ed) move on. If it is done callously, and disrespectfully the pain only deepens. It wasn't a fun conversation for either of us, but her care helped the pain, she knew she was causing me. So BRAVA too her, for acting like a real woman, and a true sister.THAT I can respect, that's being REAL. In my mind that's how sisters should act. How do you other femmes feel about this?????

:rose: Pashi




This is lovely that she considered your feelings and respected you enough to engage you in this manner.

[Julie]

"Truth is, Great do need Hate to survive, so I..."

Will Smith


Semi-related, but that line is what popped into my head reading this part of your post. And then immediately afterward, I remembered a video I'd seen of someone talking about how love can translate to hate but I can't find that, so you have the lyric above.

*shrug*

Basically, here's my thoughts (and what was the core of the video I saw):

If you love someone enough to love them...REALLY love them, then you have the power to hate them with the same range and depth and intensity. Our world is all energy. We exchange energy all of the time. Emotions are all energy, regardless of what they portray. So, someone that loved me 'to infinity and beyond' has the power to hate me with the exact same amount of energy, just going in the 'uh oh' direction.

Now, there are those who are able to channel their energy peaks into something more productive than hatred. Unfortunately, I am not one of them. My capacity for hate is very high, as is my capacity for love and everything in between. I've been told I'm a hateful person, and perhaps I am. I know my wit lies on the sharper side of things.

For me, I look at things pretty much the opposite that you do. If someone loves me with richness and intensity and rocks me to my very core with it, I know that that love can go the other way with the same vastness. So, for me, it's not that they (or I) LACK humanity because they're (I'm) capable of hate, it's because they (I) ARE (AM) human that they (I) feel hate. The deeper the emotion, the more human they (I) are (am).

Gemme,

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you can put this out there so easily. And this is where and when I become the judgmental being. I judge. I cannot imagine for a second loving someone so deeply and then not. So, of course - I question their motives and if they ever truly did love. I believe I also lack the ability to see gray area much of the time. Something I have to work on, when it comes to other people and how they deal with things. I am really black and white when it comes to this.

I can HATE - and hate I have. But never someone who I have loved or who has loved me. But then again, no one has ever really hurt me to the core of my being. Sure, I have been hurt by love lost and cried my little girl tears and have been so distraught - but to hate them, because they have chosen to move on in a different direction as me. Or to hate them, because they have stolen money from me? It's only money and I do not form attachments to material things, even though I am obsessed with them. The only person I ever hated, was a person who hurt my children. My claws came out and I could feel the hate build inside of me, and all I wanted to do was hurt this person.

I guess for me, I have only been in love once. I have loved many - but that deep in love feeling, truly once in my life. And I could not hate her if my life depended on it. Even though, my heart broke - no, I could never hate her and will die loving her. I let her in, how can I push her out? Hopefully one day, I will allow myself to fall. Maybe that's why I have never hated, I do not allow myself to go to that place with partners. Far too vulnerable for me.

In thinking about your words, again -- Perhaps I need to look at myself and figure out why I do not allow myself this emotion of "Hate." Maybe it would do my soul good to feel it. But the few times I have, it has just left me feeling angry and I don't like anger. A rule in my relationships - do not ever yell at me! If you yell at me, I probably will walk. I don't do anger.

Thanks YOU!

[Arwen]

I don't hate any more. I grieve. I despair. I avoid. But I don't hate. That energy ties me into those I don't love any more. It is a deeper, stronger hook than that of love in some ways.

It makes me speak of them, dream of them even when they are no longer in my life by my choice. It makes me continue to feed them some piece of me that they have no right to. Even an angry, ugly emotion like hate feeds them. And I am done giving certain people any of me--even the ugly bits.

And believe you me, I've hated. I've hated long and hard and strong. Where did it get me?

Nowhere other than stressed out to the point of diarrhea and hair loss. Oh yes. I've hated hard.

I know it's fashionable these days to call yourself a hater. I choose not to do that. I choose not to buy into that negative energy any more. I don't like the end results. I prefer to seek joy. Sometimes that means avoiding some people, but hey! There's enough world out there for all of us, right?

Do I still love my exes? Some of them, yes. Very much so. Others? Nope, not at all. I've withdrawn their access to cash their emotional checks at my bank of self. Account closed.

It's hard to take this road. Others mock. Others think I'm a Pollyanna. And that's okay because that's their choice. It's not in my hula hoop to control what they say or think about me.

As to someone dating my ex? I'm pretty sure I didn't leave a leash on anyone I dated. I don't own my exes. I don't have the right to tell them who to date just as they don't have the right to tell me who to date.

Would it be painful to see my ex with a friend? Probably, but not in the way some might think. I have exes that I wouldn't want my friends to date because I know how much hurt could be brought into their lives. I don't want that for my friends. I love my friends but still would not "warn" them off. They are grown-assed women who can make that decision for themselves.

But to have a throwdown temper tantrum because someone I know is now dating someone I used to date? Nah...I'll leave those histrionics to others.

I do appreciate that Gemme talked to me about her attraction to OrganicButch only because I got to confess that I'd been telling him to check her out. :) Matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match!

That's my long two cents. Might even be a nickel.

[Gemme]

Gemme,

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that you can put this out there so easily. And this is where and when I become the judgmental being. I judge. I cannot imagine for a second loving someone so deeply and then not. So, of course - I question their motives and if they ever truly did love. I believe I also lack the ability to see gray area much of the time. Something I have to work on, when it comes to other people and how they deal with things. I am really black and white when it comes to this.

I can HATE - and hate I have. But never someone who I have loved or who has loved me. But then again, no one has ever really hurt me to the core of my being. Sure, I have been hurt by love lost and cried my little girl tears and have been so distraught - but to hate them, because they have chosen to move on in a different direction as me. Or to hate them, because they have stolen money from me? It's only money and I do not form attachments to material things, even though I am obsessed with them. The only person I ever hated, was a person who hurt my children. My claws came out and I could feel the hate build inside of me, and all I wanted to do was hurt this person.

I guess for me, I have only been in love once. I have loved many - but that deep in love feeling, truly once in my life. And I could not hate her if my life depended on it. Even though, my heart broke - no, I could never hate her and will die loving her. I let her in, how can I push her out? Hopefully one day, I will allow myself to fall. Maybe that's why I have never hated, I do not allow myself to go to that place with partners. Far too vulnerable for me.

In thinking about your words, again -- Perhaps I need to look at myself and figure out why I do not allow myself this emotion of "Hate." Maybe it would do my soul good to feel it. But the few times I have, it has just left me feeling angry and I don't like anger. A rule in my relationships - do not ever yell at me! If you yell at me, I probably will walk. I don't do anger.

Thanks YOU!

I think this world needs all types and expressions of love. That's why we're different. *grin*

I don't see any of us being 'better' than the other or having a 'better' way of processing stuff. Just different. I like the idea of feeling as you do for those who've passed through your life and love.

Our past experiences teach us a lot and help mold us. Some things make others turn away from what occurred and some things creates a draw to the same type of action or behavior.

You don't do anger. The majority of my life has been nothing but anger. Anger and loss and frustration and regret. A being can't exist in this world, in that atmosphere, without it coloring them. I'd like to say that I'm all bright yellow for sunshine and glitter, but it's just not so. I'm more indigo or gray.

You also mentioned not having been hurt to your core. That's another difference between us. I've experienced betrayal on levels I would only wish on my most hated (wry grin) enemies. Sometimes I invited those into my life who did this and sometimes I didn't.

I see you as a very open person, who does her best to see the gold in everyone. I am a bit different. In relation to people that are acquaintances or are only on the peripherals of my life, I don't judge or criticize them very harshly. It's those that are deeply twisted in the fibers of my life that I have the most difficult time with. It's something I have worked and worked on but I think, on some cellular level deep within my being, there is an expectation of hurt. Everything is exaggerated. My Judgey McJudgerson self comes out. I expect more from them. I give more to them. Everything....love, lust, hate, laughter, happiness, sadness....is magnified a thousandfold.

You've said that once they are in, since you let them in, you can't or won't push them out. Once I let someone in, the stakes increase dramatically. That's why I hold so many people at arm's length. In the best of cases, the hurt is outweighed by the joy. In most cases, it's just not so. It's probably going to be a lifelong battle I wage within myself, to see the brighter side of things and to try to let go of the rest.

[Passionaria]

If you love someone enough to love them...REALLY love them, then you have the power to hate them with the same range and depth and intensity.

(((Gemme))) I know this is true, I have been there as well. It's like the intensity has to go somewhere, like a rubber band being pulled tight then released. SNAP. For me it's all about "how" things are handled. My reality becomes much more flexible if I am treated with some tenderness and care. I have only hated one person that I loved. And it was because they were so incredibly unkind, in how they ended things. Unnecessarily unkind and hurtful. Pain turned my love to hate, I just couldn't understand it. :blink: It was a serious reality warp, and unexpected. Now I understand it, and still have a soft spot for them. But if I saw them, I would treat them like a ghost, to protect my heart. Twice, shame on me....

:rose: Pashi

[Passionaria]

Gemme,


Sure, I have been hurt by love lost and cried my little girl tears and have been so distraught - but to hate them, because they have chosen to move on in a different direction as me......


I am beginning to believe deep love + deep pain, can = hate. And I guess what constitutes "deep pain" is subjective. For me yelling is annoying but not a deal breaker, lol I can be very passionate with words myself. For me it is being disrespected, or worse yet humiliated, that works my last nerve! But then again I'm a bit of a Princess. :| OK a full blooded Princess.

And, Ms Julie I really appreciate how you can share differing opinions with such grace!!!!

:rose: Pashi

[Gemme]

(((Gemme))) I know this is true, I have been there as well. It's like the intensity has to go somewhere, like a rubber band being pulled tight then released. SNAP. For me it's all about "how" things are handled. My reality becomes much more flexible if I am treated with some tenderness and care. I have only hated one person that I loved. And it was because they were so incredibly unkind, in how they ended things. Unnecessarily unkind and hurtful. Pain turned my love to hate, I just couldn't understand it. :blink: It was a serious reality warp, and unexpected. Now I understand it, and still have a soft spot for them. But if I saw them, I would treat them like a ghost, to protect my heart. Twice, shame on me....

:rose: Pashi

Yes! Like a pendulum.

One of the things that determines if negative emotions will spring forth is what happens during the course of the relationship. But, like in your case, how you deal with one another afterwards can also swing the emotional pendulum too.

Even when things are tough and complicated, if both parties exhibit care and respect towards the other, I think all things are possible.

[Passionaria]

It makes me speak of them, dream of them even when they are no longer in my life by my choice. It makes me continue to feed them some piece of me that they have no right to. Even an angry, ugly emotion like hate feeds them. And I am done giving certain people any of me--even the ugly bits.


As to someone dating my ex? I'm pretty sure I didn't leave a leash on anyone I dated. I don't own my exes. I don't have the right to tell them who to date just as they don't have the right to tell me who to date.


Ms. Arwen,
You are such an articulate SCORPIO. It happens to be something I appreciate about you, though. I think there is a big difference between "love" and dating. Love is about relationship, depth of relationship. Dating is a social activity. There are some people I have dated that said they love me, but it is BS, lip service (and not the yummy kind). My point is about a love relationship, and how lovely it is, for Femmes to be treat each others hearts with care and respect, rather than having the I'm getting mine attitude, that is rampant. Respect for sisterhood, not leashes. Another Pollyanna here.

I would, and have warned femmes about hurtful Butches. Are they grown, and smart? Yes. When I learn someone is just a cold disrespectful person, or worse, I can pretty much bet it will be repeated. A rose, is a rose. In reality, after they do it to enough femmes, everyone will know. Watching, I still hurt, for them........

I love what you said " It makes me continue to feed them some piece of me that they have no right to." GOOD POINT!!!

:rose: Pashianna

[Bit]

I have hated abusive exes of my partners, and abusive parents; I have hated abusers of others I care about. But for me, even the abusive partners I've had, even my own abusive family members? No. Once I love, I cannot hate. Once I love, I cannot stop loving.

Deep shattering pain that keeps me broken for months is the result of that inability to stop loving. The pain comes because I can't stop loving even when I want to; because I gave my all and was treated badly; because I still belong heart and soul to someone who has rejected me.... for whatever reason it comes, it rules my life until I recover, and during that time, I cannot deal with the person who caused it.

Full recovery can take years if I judge it by the time it takes until I can speak to an ex again, although it might only be a matter of months before I'm recovered enough to love someone else. One of the things I most treasure about Gryph is that far from being threatened by the love I still hold for my exes, he understands and makes safe space for my whole heart, including all the broken parts of it (with the ones they still love). He understands that none of them can mean as much to me as he does. He also understands that I cannot handle being around them or speaking to them, and he does his best to protect me.

Some people might think that I hold a grudge, but it isn't that I hate them or wish them any kind of harm (which, yanno, is kinda required for it to be a grudge); it's that I'm raw inside, like deep burn scars that take years to heal, and any contact abrades the scars again and again.

When Femme friends have come to me and asked about my exes, I have done my best to be honest. If the ex was abusive in any way, I have said so. If not, I have done my best to be objective and kind. In any case, I've made it plain that I am biased by the heartbreak.

Luckily, no one who is a close friend has gotten into a romance with any of my exes where I would have been forced to face it on a daily basis. It would be just awful having to walk away from a close friend, but yanno... those continually abraded scars would demand it.

It's interesting that this pattern took hold in my life after I discovered Daddy/girl relationships, and allowed myself to be open and free as a girl instead of stifling that part of myself. It freed me to love more and more deeply with each relationship.......... and that means I hurt more and more deeply with the breaking of each relationship. Vulnerability, this ability to bond so tightly, to give everything I am, carries a huge price in my life. I suppose that people probably find the same ability in most kink-type relationships? I don't know; I only know that it developed in my life along with my girl-self, and that finding a partner who understands and accepts it has been crucial for me.

The path to finding that partner, well, the stops along it were the partners who either didn't understand or refused to accept.... can't hate them, but I still have to protect myself and those badly abraded scars, even if it would mean walking away from a Femme friend who entered a relationship with one of my exes.

[Bit]

p.s., my post is about this pattern in my life, not specifically about where I am right now. If someone wants to date one of my exes now, go ahead, lol...

[The_Lady_Snow]

Clothes swap.

Oakland.

Realization.

Dressed up, we are beautiful.

But in bra and panties, thrown in a room together? AND...not a butch in sight?

We're fucking awesome.


Dear Femme's,

I can't wait to experience this feeling of bonding with ya'll

Excited and Nervous,

Snow


http://tomblock.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/les-bonnes-femmes2.jpg?w=450