Open Letter: Dear Femme

[evolveme]

Dear Femme,

In the last week, here and elsewhere, heated discussions have arisen as to the overwhelming male-centric nature of our on-line spaces, our communities. We have come into those discussions to address this concern, always as a voice of support. Support for those who feel challenged (trans and male-id’d people). Support for those who feel unseen (women-identified butches).

In the process, we have been accused of “acting straight.” We have been told we too often “roll over for the men.” Some of us have been accused of flagrant misogyny. We have had to listen to old theories wherein female is connected to Feeling and male is tied to Logic. If we ask for facts, we are buying into the Patriarchy, not thinking with a whole and human mind.

Out of these debates I have seen how it may be true, the notion of male-centrism, but perhaps it is more true that this bias is generally a masculine one, than simply male.

In these communities, too often, our voices have been ones of undying support. When the masculine other requires us, we never fail to stroke, to attend, to remind her or him that yes, all things are as you wish them because we are here, beside you. Being that thing you most desire. That thing you need to remind you of your own worth and worthiness.

But, Dear Femme, when I read what you have to say in published essay, or blog, or on-line journal, you are so much else. You are alive with your own power. Your desire for Butch is only a passing commentary in the ungraspable passage of what-all is You.

And so I ask you, how do we recover ourselves, no matter how we identify, from the grip of the vortex of the masculine mean? How do we attend ourselves, or will we? While it may be true that the masculine bears an ancient wound, it is equally true that so does the feminine. I challenge you to consider her, You, and to talk about her tenderly and bravely, well and wisely, wholly and without the self-editing that comes of the reservation we put into so much of what we say here when we are attending to our masculine counterparts.

Let her loose.

I have an incredible amount of love for All of Them, but were I honest, even more for You.

Julie

[Bit]

Dear Sister Femme,

{{{{{{{{{{{{Julie}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you. And I love you, too.

You've articulated it perfectly. I haven't seen the accusations but then, I haven't been part of the debates... this time. I have certainly seen the accusations time and time again during past discussions.

I think that you've articulated the split very well, between those who feel challenged and those who feel unseen. What we see, standing on the outside, is that it is NOT an "either/or" situation but a "both/and" situation; but there doesn't seem any way to say so without being seen as unsupportive.

It's hard to be in the middle this way. It's hard to speak without that reservation, to stop censoring the self and simply talk.

I've spent so many years thinking always of the meaning that will be given to my words, the intent that will be assumed, that I don't honestly know if I am able to simply speak without considering others first.

That's a rather daunting thought,
Cathie

[SuperFemme]

Great post e.

I have found life to have gone down an interesting path since I fell in love with a trans person. People keep trying to relegate me to being a piece of furniture (soffa) and insisting that my label must change. I MUST be straight, look at who I love.

The thing is: I am the same me I have always been.

Hunter
Gatherer
Mother Bear
Sister
Daughter
Friend
Lover
Worker Bee
Busy Bee
Lover of my feminine

I have fought to be seen. To be heard. Without being on the arm of a butch or a trans guy. Suddenly I am again unseen. For who *I* am.

I will not stop fighting to be seen. I will not change the essence of *Me* because of who the Universe sent me to love.

I will keep speaking out. Figuring out. Opening my mind and heart but not changing the core.

I do not exist as a 50%. I am not a half of something.

I am 100%. Me.

1 + ! = 2 and so forth and so on into infinity.

[Bit]

The thing is: I am the same me I have always been.


{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}} Wondered where you were today, sugar!

The line I quoted from your post really surprised me... not that you are the same you, but that I became a different me.

*tilts head* I think before I loved a Transman, I was a smaller me, hedged in with a lot of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" that I had learned from other people. I had to expand, to grow--I had to accept my own authority in my life--in order to become the person I was meant to be and to love all the people I was meant to love.

[evolveme]

Dear Sister Femme,

{{{{{{{{{{{{Julie}}}}}}}}}}}}} Thank you. And I love you, too.

You've articulated it perfectly. I haven't seen the accusations but then, I haven't been part of the debates... this time. I have certainly seen the accusations time and time again during past discussions.

I think that you've articulated the split very well, between those who feel challenged and those who feel unseen. What we see, standing on the outside, is that it is NOT an "either/or" situation but a "both/and" situation; but there doesn't seem any way to say so without being seen as unsupportive.

It's hard to be in the middle this way. It's hard to speak without that reservation, to stop censoring the self and simply talk.

I've spent so many years thinking always of the meaning that will be given to my words, the intent that will be assumed, that I don't honestly know if I am able to simply speak without considering others first.

That's a rather daunting thought,
Cathie


Lovely Bit,

Given that we are primarily socialized to think of others first, to literally seat ourselves last, it is no wonder we have this difficulty when it comes to times like these.

A couple of years ago I was meeting a beautiful girl friend of mine for drinks. She lived in another state and we hardly ever got to see one another. The entire time we were trying to catch up, however, men in the bar/restaurant, and one in particular, were/was interrupting us, attempting to dominate the conversation for attention. Both of us being the very Southern and feminine women that we are continued to smile wanly but permit them.

Finally, I'd had enough.

I said to the most frequent of these men (I interrupted him, in fact):

"Listen, we have been socialized and conditioned all of our sweet little lives to permit you to take up our space. To interrupt us. We're done with that business. Get lost."

I actually felt terribly guilty for possibly having hurt his feelings. And my friend did too. But we both laughed each time a man approached that I held up my hand and said, "No, back!"

I'm a little bit almost finally able to do that. To just say what I think. To go, No, back! whenever I need to and not worry about "his" feelings. Because I have allowed mine to be just as important.

[evolveme]

Great post e.

I have found life to have gone down an interesting path since I fell in love with a trans person. People keep trying to relegate me to being a piece of furniture (soffa) and insisting that my label must change. I MUST be straight, look at who I love.

The thing is: I am the same me I have always been.

Hunter
Gatherer
Mother Bear
Sister
Daughter
Friend
Lover
Worker Bee
Busy Bee
Lover of my feminine

I have fought to be seen. To be heard. Without being on the arm of a butch or a trans guy. Suddenly I am again unseen. For who *I* am.

I will not stop fighting to be seen. I will not change the essence of *Me* because of who the Universe sent me to love.

I will keep speaking out. Figuring out. Opening my mind and heart but not changing the core.

I do not exist as a 50%. I am not a half of something.

I am 100%. Me.

1 + ! = 2 and so forth and so on into infinity.




Dear SuperLadypersonFemme,

I cannot possibly even IMAGINE how anyone would ever try to reduce You.

There is no entropy to Femme.

Period.

You are too large and too magical to ever be minimized. And certainly not because of how you have been enlarged through love. How nonsensical.

:heartbeat:,

me

[Bit]

Dear Femme Poodle,

Once you took her off ignore--you're cracking me up! And that's one of the things I love about you, that sense of humor and wry acknowledgment that go hand in leash, so to speak. ;)

I think, actually, that a sense of humor like that might be a hallmark of Femmes... have you found it to be so? I know in me it's a response to The Life Invisible, but even more a response to The Life Queer... We are all of us beings of strength and will, dealing with a world that tries hard to marginalize us and make us disappear.

I hear you and I see you,
Cathie

[evolveme]

Dear, e
I get my power internally, rather than from outside sources.

My Femme does not rely on who I fuck or partner with. My Femme feeds and clothes herself and often even opens her own doors. She does not need to trample or dominate others (Unless they want it and ask nicely) in order to feel whole.

She is not envious of others, but she is a bitch when crossed and her love spreads wide for all people, even when her legs don't. She's also a Libra on the cusp of Virgo, which can be dangerous for the disengenuous and dishonest.

My Femme doesn't always spell very well either. And she tends to use a lot of ambiguous apostrophe's when she's not sure.

My Femme likes your Femme a whole lot and learns new things from her all the damn time. Especially once she took you off ignore.

In The Struggle to be heard and witnessed,

June

Dear June,

I never once doubted (and who could have) the fucking majesty that is You (even if you did have me on ignore).

Clearly you understand the secret to being your own powerhouse and knowing when and how to share that power in a way that does not ever diminish you. Thank the Great Poodle for that, sister.

Your role in the great scheme may just be one of Check & Balance. For that, you have to overcome a lot of people's bullshit, don't you? Well and we need more strong motherfucking women like you.

And, hey, your stray apostrophe's don't bother me a damn bit. If only I could figure out the meaning to those obnoxious acronyms.

Heard and witnessed,

e

[SuperFemme]

Dear, e
I get my power internally, rather than from outside sources.

My Femme does not rely on who I fuck or partner with. My Femme feeds and clothes herself and often even opens her own doors. She does not need to trample or dominate others (Unless they want it and ask nicely) in order to feel whole.

She is not envious of others, but she is a bitch when crossed and her love spreads wide for all people, even when her legs don't. She's also a Libra on the cusp of Virgo, which can be dangerous for the disengenuous and dishonest.

My Femme doesn't always spell very well either. And she tends to use a lot of ambiguous apostrophe's when she's not sure.

My Femme likes your Femme a whole lot and learns new things from her all the damn time. Especially once she took you off ignore.

In The Struggle to be heard and witnessed,

June

Dear Daddy June,

The day I met you I was swept away by the power of You.

My swiss cheese of a brain remember the registration table at the first Femme Conf. like it was yesterday. THAT in and of itself is powerful.

I am a Libra on the cusp of Scorpio. I like to lie to myself and say that makes me a balanced bitch.

Am I off ignore yet?

Love,

FBG

[little man]

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

[evolveme]

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

Dear Wil,

You have long been one of our best and greatest allies.

Your sincerity and deep consideration are unmatched.

I have so much gratitude for You.

Love,

e

[SuperFemme]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

[Bit]

Lovely Bit,

Given that we are primarily socialized to think of others first, to literally seat ourselves last, it is no wonder we have this difficulty when it comes to times like these.
Yikes e, lol..... I forgot how hard it was for me to learn to sit down before the Butch!!! And yanno... I can still only do it in restaurants.

The entire time we were trying to catch up, however, men in the bar/restaurant, and one in particular, were/was interrupting us, attempting to dominate the conversation for attention. Both of us being the very Southern and feminine women that we are continued to smile wanly but permit them.

I soooooo completely understand. It is SO HARD to break through the conditioning that we have to be polite, isn't it?

I bet you would have had exactly the same reaction had they been women. That's happened to me more than once, and although the unwanted attention has not been sexual, it has still been very MUCH unwanted.

I actually felt terribly guilty for possibly having hurt his feelings. And my friend did too. But we both laughed each time a man approached that I held up my hand and said, "No, back!"

I'm a little bit almost finally able to do that. To just say what I think. To go, No, back! whenever I need to and not worry about "his" feelings. Because I have allowed mine to be just as important.

I think that I am coming to that also, although not quite so literally. What I tend to do is to avoid people, or to leave....

.......unless, of course, they are people I care about. That's the rub, eh? Because I care about Butches and Transmen... it's one thing to stop being unnecessarily polite to strangers. It's another to stop caring about Butches and Transmen..............

..............you caught that, I'm sure. I caught it as the thought came out of my head. Since when does politeness equal caring? Am I required to be self-effacing enough to accept any kind of intrusion, simply to be seen as caring? Am I required to seat myself last at the table (I can hear half the world's Butches cringing, lol, can't you?) simply to be considered properly supportive?

It's a lot of food for thought,
Cathie

[SuperFemme]

In reading e and Bit's posts I had a thought.

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?

[evolveme]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?


Yes, I absolutely own and allow that I am guilty. But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well. Don't misread me, although I may have seemed to have a certain "side" in these debates, I do not have a "side" for/against anyone. I Love ALL of These Groups. I literally and motherfucking do.

But here are the ways I see me playing into the masculine-centrism:

- I am always on the ready to call out transphobia (usually in the form of transguyphobia) or to speak up for the way that female id'd butches are not being seen (bc I have also done this), but am less likely to call out ways that I may see femmes being denigrated.

Usually it is because I either wait for someone else to weigh in on the subject, or because I actually believe that what a particular femme has done is distasteful and does not speak to Me, Julie, This Femme. Well, so motherfucking what?

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

[little man]

In reading e and Bit's posts I had a thought.

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?


i think, perhaps, it is more emblematic of "knowing your place" and being in it.

[SuperFemme]

Yes, I absolutely own and allow that I am guilty. But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well. Don't misread me, although I may have seemed to have a certain "side" in these debates, I do not have a "side" for/against anyone. I Love ALL of These Groups. I literally and motherfucking do.

But here are the ways I see me playing into the masculine-centrism:

- I am always on the ready to call out transphobia (usually in the form of transguyphobia) or to speak up for the way that female id'd butches are not being seen (bc I have also done this), but am less likely to call out ways that I may see femmes being denigrated.

Usually it is because I either wait for someone else to weigh in on the subject, or because I actually believe that what a particular femme has done is distasteful and does not speak to Me, Julie, This Femme. Well, so motherfucking what?

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

My mind was thinking masculine centric and I typed male. I have to ponder that. I apologize.

The tea serving, maribou slipper wearing posts bother me because I feel they feed into the pleasing of the masculine.

It feels nonsensical and frustrating because to *Me* Femmes are a stand alone force worthy of so much more than an accoutrement.

[SuperFemme]

i think, perhaps, it is more emblematic of "knowing your place" and being in it.

Perhaps that is why I am constantly in the naughty chair for not knowing my (inferred) place?

[little man]

Perhaps that is why I am constantly in the naughty chair for not knowing my (inferred) place?

or, perhaps you enjoy the "punishment"?

[Bit]

i can learn (and unlearn) here.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wil}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I've never found you to be anything other than supportive.

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

I've experienced that. Interestingly enough, the times in the past when I have felt judged have been when other Femmes have tried to take away my rights to speak to and about female-identified Butches. The mechanism has usually been that I say something inclusive of all Butches, OR I say something about one group of Butches without painstakingly referencing all the other groups of Butches--and then I am arbitrarily branded as erasing and devaluing female identified Butches.

The effect of this has been to make me APPEAR to be enforcing male-centric standards on our community, because people have loudly tarred me with that brush. The truth is that in a weird and twisted kind of way, the people who have insisted that I am holding up male-centric standards have actually done it themselves by bringing it up in the first place and plastering it all over me when I wanted nothing to do with it and was deliberately, carefully avoiding it.

I suppose the problem is that some people cannot see past the "scarcity model" of thinking, and believe whole-heartedly that there is only one kind of recognition and it's limited; therefore, they seem to believe that if a person is recognizing male-identified Butches they are automatically erasing female-identified Butches, and vice versa. (I believe this is the root of the division in the Butch community even now.)

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

[SuperFemme]

or, perhaps you enjoy the "punishment"?

Ha! Perhaps at times I do. Other times I get incredibly frustrated when my non-demur/polite mouth results in anger from others. I make it a point to take care of me and speak my needs (not rudely or aggressively) and at times have felt frowned upon for this.

[SuperFemme]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Wil}}}}}}}}}}}}}} I've never found you to be anything other than supportive.


I've experienced that. Interestingly enough, the times in the past when I have felt judged have been when other Femmes have tried to take away my rights to speak to and about female-identified Butches. The mechanism has usually been that I say something inclusive of all Butches, OR I say something about one group of Butches without painstakingly referencing all the other groups of Butches--and then I am arbitrarily branded as erasing and devaluing female identified Butches.

The effect of this has been to make me APPEAR to be enforcing male-centric standards on our community, because people have loudly tarred me with that brush. The truth is that in a weird and twisted kind of way, the people who have insisted that I am holding up male-centric standards have actually done it themselves by bringing it up in the first place and plastering it all over me when I wanted nothing to do with it and was deliberately, carefully avoiding it.

I suppose the problem is that some people cannot see past the "scarcity model" of thinking, and believe whole-heartedly that there is only one kind of recognition and it's limited; therefore, they seem to believe that if a person is recognizing male-identified Butches they are automatically erasing female-identified Butches, and vice versa. (I believe this is the root of the division in the Butch community even now.)

I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.

I have never read you as supporting masculine centric thinking. Ever.

I have read you speaking your truth and loving others for whom they are. Not with one excluding the other.

(((Bit))) please don't let them silence you.

[Bit]

But again, I am seeing this as "masculine-centric" rather than simply male-centric. When we call it male-centric, we're throwing our transguys and male-id'd fellas under the bus, and it's also patently unfair because of the ways that butch women, i.e., masculine females, inherently dominate our spaces as well.

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

[little man]

Ha! Perhaps at times I do. Other times I get incredibly frustrated when my non-demur/polite mouth results in anger from others. I make it a point to take care of me and speak my needs (not rudely or aggressively) and at times have felt frowned upon for this.


not surprisingly, people tend to balk at change. especially change that challenges or cuts into their perception of "how things work". i do believe that anger is fear channeled outwardly.

no one wants to give up power...especially those who have long (and perhaps not so wisely) wielded it. rather than see the benefit to all that can be had by spreading the power (and responsibility) along a broad line, they grow fearful that their little stash of power will be diminished, thereby diminishing themselves and their perceived position in the world.

i honestly believe that if the male/masculine people on this planet took a step back and looked at where their power lies, and who supports them through things....they'd understand that the feminine should be exalted for the strong beings and forces they are. rather than give credit where credit is due, it's hidden or usurped with the growth in power going to the usurper.

i'm not sure i'm making sense.

[Bit]

(((Bit))) please don't let them silence you.

Thank you for the affirmation and validation, darlin. {{{{{{{{{{{{{Adele}}}}}}}}}}}

It's scary, speaking up without regard for what might come next. I'm feeling a huge amount of anxiety right now. *wry smile*

[Mister Bent]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?


Ok, well, I can't speak from that "we" (as femmes) place, but I can say that maybe sometimes yes, you do contribute to masculine-centrism.

As a matter of conditioning (as e described above).

As a matter of necessity in your support of the fragile creature that is masculine.

I utilize masculine here because we all of us who fall under the butch* portion of the name of this site, and others, share some similar qualities. I don't care what anyone says, we are fragile ego'ed creatures. We need soothing, stroking and reassuring. We need to have our masculinity fluffed.

We are, in short, somewhat pathetic. All of us, what with our noise about our "natural levels of testosterone" and our ridiculous "knightly" ways, posture strong and resilient when the fact is, we would have difficulty pressing on if it weren't for your support. In putting you in that position, in accepting that love and nurturing you offer us, we smother you.

While butch, just as femme, stands alone as an identity (not "half of something") I wouldn't be who I am today if it weren't for you. I am ever thankful when you, one or many or all of you, stand behind, beside or in front of me in some struggle, but sometimes I think that has placed you solely in a supporting role. And everyone of us knows, femme is so much larger than that.


*Butch, man, transman, bulldyke, bulldagger, transbutch, etc.

[Bit]

Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

The tea serving, maribou slipper wearing posts bother me because I feel they feed into the pleasing of the masculine.

Okay, this one and then I think I'm done.... at least till after :dogwalking:...

Yes, it's hard to read some of the lighter colored fonts. Yes, some of those posts are way WAY girly. BUT they aren't girly in service of the masculine, they're girly as an expression of the Femmes who write them.... the girliness isn't imposed from the outside, it wells up from the inside.

And yes, there are brains behind some of that girliness that pretty much never speak an analytical thought--out loud. Doesn't mean they don't think those thoughts. I've been privileged to have sometimes read them--they're just as sharp as the rest of us.

Whether that kind of post feeds into the pleasing of the masculine.... that's trickier. I think it does, but I don't think that's the reason for the posting style... I suspect those who love girly posts would post that way if---the heavens forfend!!--there were no Butches at all, because it wells up from inside the Femmes like water from an artesian spring.

And now, indeed, :dogwalking: before she drives me insane, lol....

[Ryobi]

i honestly believe that if the male/masculine people on this planet took a step back and looked at where their power lies, and who supports them through things....they'd understand that the feminine should be exalted for the strong beings and forces they are. rather than give credit where credit is due, it's hidden or usurped with the growth in power going to the usurper.

i'm not sure i'm making sense.

This sounds to me like a Native American belief. It's one of many beautiful Native beliefs that have been forgotten. Or should I really say, silenced.
I agree with you, little man.

[TeaPartyTart]

E,
Thank you for igniting thought and discussion here. I read this post on different site and I'm not surprised at the lack of response 'there'. In fact, the example of you creating an opportunity for literally the same voices to share their thoughts on this topic highlights the undertow of aggression some spaces have created.

So yes, I have an opinion on this topic, and yes, I choose to share it 'here'.

I've changed over the past 10 or so years I've identified as Femme. I used to believe it was all about my power and in hindsight my power looked more like King Kong stomping on legitimate thoughts, opinions and questions of those that may have differed from mine. My power was to 'squash' not only the opinion, but to take a deeper stance and make a stronger impact on the person to ensure they didn't continue to hold opinions that aligned with the ones they shared. How dare they think for themselves? The nerve.

How have I changed? I no longer feel I need to exude power to get my point across or, in many cases, feel I need to share any thought at all. To me, this is not me 'rolling over' to a masculine opinion. I'm no longer in it to have a winner or a loser. Instead, I choose to focus on my strength.

For me, my Femme strength is about focusing on how to get to what I truly want and believe in without hurting people or countering opinions along the way. I feel I am at my best when I can keep my head high and walk through the proverbial shit storm of words. And while I love and appreciate discussion, I ---wait for it---feel there are some who don't deserve to hear my words. These are preditory individuals (male, female, etc.) who will never get who I am or what I stand for.

Regarding the pink font: Fucking hate it. I hate the constant juvenile look and immature nature of the content. To me, the perception is just too ridiculous to take the person seriously, regardless of the situation; Regardless how 'deep' the person is.

I'm sure the previous paragraph contradicts what I just shared but I think you brainiacs can handle it.

Peace,
TPT

[atomiczombie]

I am always very glad to get the opportunity to learn more about femmes, how they think and feel about being a femme, and how they think and feel about us masculine gents. Reading this thread has been educational to me, and I very much appreciate all you ladies have shared. Thank you! :cheesy:

[Diva]

I never felt more invisible or silenced than I felt around my father, whose favorite word for me was "Shhhh!". That's probably a whole 'nother' thread.....

And then I never felt more liberated than (1) when I came out (after 15 years of marriage to the father of my beautiful daughters) and (2) when my father died. (I know that sounds horrible.)

I found my voice and my 'sea legs' when those 2 things happened. The power was in me all along, I see that now. But I just needed a kick in the seat of the pants for the jumpstart.

My strength comes from within and from my "song"....which plays constantly throughout my brain. I got most of the lyrics from my Mom....and other strong women in my life.

:grandpiano:
(PS.....I hope the purple font isn't offensive....:) )

[Tommi]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?


Echo, echo echo....listening in..Learning in the midst of life.:chocolate::eatinghersheybar:

[Words]

Clothes swap.

Oakland.

Realization.

Dressed up, we are beautiful.

But in bra and panties, thrown in a room together? AND...not a butch in sight?

We're fucking awesome.

[evolveme]

In reading e and Bit's posts I had a thought.

Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?


Yes.


.......unless, of course, they are people I care about. That's the rub, eh? Because I care about Butches and Transmen... it's one thing to stop being unnecessarily polite to strangers. It's another to stop caring about Butches and Transmen..............

..............you caught that, I'm sure. I caught it as the thought came out of my head. Since when does politeness equal caring? Am I required to be self-effacing enough to accept any kind of intrusion, simply to be seen as caring? Am I required to seat myself last at the table (I can hear half the world's Butches cringing, lol, can't you?) simply to be considered properly supportive?



I say there is enough attention and recognition to go around. Both male and female identified Butches are valuable members of our community and deserve recognition--just as Transmen are valued and deserve recognition.

But what has happened is that in actual practice, no one hears me. From being a strong, deeply thoughtful, analytical, articulate, and valued ally of all three groups, I have been reduced to a caricature of unthinking prejudice--and so I am silenced.


It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Cath, whom I adore, I've selected pieces from a few of your posts that speak to the same thing. Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread, which is a Call to Femme, to You.

It is about You. It is about what is beautiful and powerful and autonomous in You.

I have seen the ways that we have disallowed ourselves.

Here, I want to see us naming and seeing ourselves. And one another.

Don't misunderstand, I also want to talk about the ways that we are met with masculine-centrism and how we have handled it, as much as how we might choose to handle it in the future, but if I see that you are focusing over-much on the masculine, I'm just going to remind you -gently- of You.

Because, you know, it's You who just fucking rocks my socks.

It's You whom I have admired most.

It's You who have been my unofficial mentors.

It's You I think of as my friends.

:heartbeat:

[evolveme]

Regarding my earlier mention of the Dread Pink Font.

I was owning that as a likely example of one of the ways I have bought and swallowed the misogyny. The frivolity reads, well, frivolous. (Watch me do it again here for free, folks!)

I suppose that on the other side of that, you won't find me enjoying anything overly stereotyped as male/masculine (read: neanderthal). All that belching business has me clicking out of a thread instantly.

Now, as Bit pointed out, some of our best femmes may be the pinkly fonted, virtually tea party hostesses. I am not judging them. I am just not reading them. What SuperFemme asked was 'how are we participating?.'

This was one of the ways I could name off-hand. I am not getting to know these femmes. By choice.

I thought it was a great question.

How else are we party to the masculine-centrism?

[hippieflowergirl]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?



i dont think i'm guilty of defining the way male/masculine identified persons do the business of their lives, whether i agree with how they do it or not. could be wrong tho'.

if ANY person wants to do the "world domination" attitude thing i dont feel any need to participate in their delusions of grandeur. i'd rather snicker to myself from the sidelines or slap them down in my own special ways.

do we judge one another in harshly? oh hell yes.

my "at home politics" and my "world politics" are so different as to be two distinct realities. i'm not at all confused about them and neither is any Lover who wants more than a passing chance with me.

if i choose to use pink fonts, to wear maribu and lace, to fuck myself with a hello kitty vibrator or any other so-called "girly" behavior and someone thinks i'm less intelligent or that i'm doing such things "for" someone else they can suck my dick (she said delicately).

i'm swamped with paraphernalia that extols whatever measurable intelligence i've managed to exhibit as well as my professional success over the long term. i'm a damn smart bitch and i'm also damn submissive in intimate situations. i'm also a fairly decent human being. the fact that i like to be held down and fucked like an expensive whore or that i live and breathe my Lover's desires when we find we have mutual free time and opportunity has nothing to do with my intelligence or my ability to take care of my car and home maintenance or to de-worm the cat without help from a Guy.

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

my lesbian friends used to ream me for being myself all the time. we're not friends anymore. if my femme friends begin to do the same i'll happily do without them as well. i love my friends but without them, i'm just fine.

in case it needs to be said, i'm not getting my temper on or anything. i just wanted to answer this (very valid) question from well within my own space.

[evolveme]

my "at home politics" and my "world politics" are so different as to be two distinct realities. i'm not at all confused about them and neither is any Lover who wants more than a passing chance with me.

if i choose to use pink fonts, to wear maribu and lace, to fuck myself with a hello kitty vibrator or any other so-called "girly" behavior and someone thinks i'm less intelligent or that i'm doing such things "for" someone else they can suck my dick (she said delicately).

i'm swamped with paraphernalia that extols whatever measurable intelligence i've managed to exhibit as well as my professional success over the long term. i'm a damn smart bitch and i'm also damn submissive in intimate situations. i'm also a fairly decent human being. the fact that i like to be held down and fucked like an expensive whore or that i live and breathe my Lover's desires when we find we have mutual free time and opportunity has nothing to do with my intelligence or my ability to take care of my car and home maintenance or to de-worm the cat without help from a Guy.

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.



Okay, y'all, if I had the rights to publish from this here thread, I do believe you might find the flowergirl's words above right slap on the inside jacket cover.

[Lynn]

I can't really untangle this discussion from the one I have every day with my self about being a woman. I have yet to actually embrace the name "Femme" even though I'm all about embracing butches. This is the ONLY place I've felt free to express this thought. Actually, it's the only place I've felt safe enough to even articulate it to myself-- I have a hard time being "a" femme because I haven't been able to completely divorce it from the idea of butch. One seems to have to go with the other. It describes my sexual preference, but it doesn't describe ME. My whole struggle, regarding identity, has to do with coming to an awareness of and appreciation for who I am, as a whole being. As a woman. As a lesbian. To me, these are the most powerful names. A lot of times, on these sites, I maintain a bemused detachment. And, when I finally feel like I have something useful to add, I can't help but put apology after disclaimer after qualification. Lest I offend ANYONE else. But, fuck how I feel. It's like, "Ahem, excuse me. But, I have an opinion. Sorry if it offends anyone in the whole wide world. But, if you offend me, I understand because I give you your (story, religion, family upbringing, mental illness, addiction, abuse, culture, age, life stage, loss and grief....). I will understand, but you don't have to. So. Sorry if I offended anyone."

I reread an old post of mine on another site, replete with these apologies, just today and I wanted to vomit. In life, as well as on line, I still haven't found how to be as strong an advocate for myself as I am for everyone else.

[Diva]

I can't really untangle this discussion from the one I have every day with my self about being a woman. I have yet to actually embrace the name "Femme" even though I'm all about embracing butches. This is the ONLY place I've felt free to express this thought. Actually, it's the only place I've felt safe enough to even articulate it to myself-- I have a hard time being "a" femme because I haven't been able to completely divorce it from the idea of butch. One seems to have to go with the other. It describes my sexual preference, but it doesn't describe ME. My whole struggle, regarding identity, has to do with coming to an awareness of and appreciation for who I am, as a whole being. As a woman. As a lesbian. To me, these are the most powerful names. A lot of times, on these sites, I maintain a bemused detachment. And, when I finally feel like I have something useful to add, I can't help but put apology after disclaimer after qualification. Lest I offend ANYONE else. But, fuck how I feel. It's like, "Ahem, excuse me. But, I have an opinion. Sorry if it offends anyone in the whole wide world. But, if you offend me, I understand because I give you your (story, religion, family upbringing, mental illness, addiction, abuse, culture, age, life stage, loss and grief....). I will understand, but you don't have to. So. Sorry if I offended anyone."

I reread an old post of mine on another site, replete with these apologies, just today and I wanted to vomit. In life, as well as on line, I still haven't found how to be as strong an advocate for myself as I am for everyone else.


I believe it took a lot of courage to say what you just said here. No need to vomit. You have learned from your own history and that is something to be embraced, yes? <smile>

I believe, too, that you ARE finding your own power.....just by posting this evolving moment. I admire you.

[SuperFemme]

i dont think i'm guilty of defining the way male/masculine identified persons do the business of their lives, whether i agree with how they do it or not. could be wrong tho'.

if ANY person wants to do the "world domination" attitude thing i dont feel any need to participate in their delusions of grandeur. i'd rather snicker to myself from the sidelines or slap them down in my own special ways.

do we judge one another in harshly? oh hell yes.

my "at home politics" and my "world politics" are so different as to be two distinct realities. i'm not at all confused about them and neither is any Lover who wants more than a passing chance with me.

if i choose to use pink fonts, to wear maribu and lace, to fuck myself with a hello kitty vibrator or any other so-called "girly" behavior and someone thinks i'm less intelligent or that i'm doing such things "for" someone else they can suck my dick (she said delicately).

i'm swamped with paraphernalia that extols whatever measurable intelligence i've managed to exhibit as well as my professional success over the long term. i'm a damn smart bitch and i'm also damn submissive in intimate situations. i'm also a fairly decent human being. the fact that i like to be held down and fucked like an expensive whore or that i live and breathe my Lover's desires when we find we have mutual free time and opportunity has nothing to do with my intelligence or my ability to take care of my car and home maintenance or to de-worm the cat without help from a Guy.

i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

my lesbian friends used to ream me for being myself all the time. we're not friends anymore. if my femme friends begin to do the same i'll happily do without them as well. i love my friends but without them, i'm just fine.

in case it needs to be said, i'm not getting my temper on or anything. i just wanted to answer this (very valid) question from well within my own space.



I thank you for this post.
I applaud you for being unapologetic for being yourself.

I too, was reamed for being too *girly* by my lesbian friends. Not taken seriously.

I love when a Femme revels in her girly because it is who she is. I am saddened when she does it because she feels she has to for a butch. Or has to do so to be a "Real Femme". The whole Real Femme thing chaps my hide.

Unabashed realness does not. It just makes me swoon.

[Lynn]

I believe it took a lot of courage to say what you just said here. No need to vomit. You have learned from your own history and that is something to be embraced, yes? <smile>

I believe, too, that you ARE finding your own power.....just by posting this evolving moment. I admire you.


Thank you, kind, sweet Diva. xo

Courage is a funny thing to me. I have done some things that have been considered courageous. (As all of us have, right?) But, everything I've done that seems courageous, including writing the above post, is just an expression of something or another that had to be said or done. There is a point when it is more difficult and more painful to hold something back than to just say the truth. Every time I have one of these moments, when I have to tell the truth, I feel bigger and stronger. I feel more of the woman that I am. My affinity for other women also raises. It hasn't been difficult for me to accept the wide range of self-expression I've encountered on these sites. The more I accept myself, the more comfortable I am with the whole range of expression of others'.

Lynn
(resisting the kneejerk urge to apologize for posting twice...what the fuck is that?)

[SuperFemme]

My favorite Queer As Folk quote? Brian Kinney - No regrets, no apologies, no excuses. Fabulous outlook!

[Bit]

...Namely, how you see yourself deferring to butches and transmasculine others always. How you appear more concerned with their comfort than your own. How your need to do this has left you feeling silenced and misunderstood.

When reading these posts, what kept occurring to me was your need to speak of the masculine other in this thread...

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

I think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that I am always conscious of posting in a way that supports Butches and Transmen, and while I did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--Adele had asked if we, as Femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

I'm sorry that I didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that I'm backpedaling, or that I haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought I was saying it was the Butches who left me feeling this way when I was trying to say it was Femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where I haven't been clear enough---after a while I start to feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground and so I do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when I posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about Butches and Transmen but about all of us, but I didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now I really do feel like I'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* Time for me to go offline; if I'm not back tomorrow I'll be back Monday.

[blush]

...So many Fake Baby Girls, so little time to make them all Apple Butter...

This is my quote for the day.

And I may steal it and use it and never give you credit.

[blush]

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

[apretty]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?


we're all responsible for the misogyny of a space--i don't think any one of us born/conditioned to be *female* in this society can escape some level of internalized xyz-phobia.

specifically, what i find most troubling is this femme- *sublimation* of herself to/for 'the masculine' as she devalues the female (or possibly just *femme*, case depending) while celebrating the masculine (male case depending). and not so suddenly we're all unwilling or not, participants even if our only participation was being a witness.

-i shall return-

[apretty]

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

[Mister Bent]

This is my quote for the day.

And I may steal it and use it and never give you credit.

I was seriously considering making it my signature line.

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

Commence thread stalking.

I'm glad you spoke to this aspect of "standing in a community." I've seen a bit of this in the realz. A femme attends local butch/femme meetings, begins to date another femme, or a male (of any variety) and suddenly other folks start to question her presence in the community. As if who she is bangin' has anything to do with her sense of community belonging, or deep affiliation.

What? We can only check one box now?

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

Sexbits.

I blush.

[bonne-maman]

Oh man, (oops)

I have been reading the posts and loving the energy, words hadn't quite come to the tips of my fingertips. But, the thread has obviously entered my subconscious.

I just remembered I dreamt last night that I was dressed as a babygirl at the Michigan Women's Music Festival.

That must be the weirdest fucking convergence of femme, feminist, girl, female subtex.

There were other babygirls here and there at the Fest as well. At one point someone was trying to ask me if I needed help getting out of there, as I obviously didn't belong (to her). I looked at her coldly, and said, "No." You see, I was dressed as a babygirl, but certainly wasn't feeling one inside, and certainly had no butch lookin after me. I was kind of a babygirl ethnographer on a mission. Observing how the festies reacted to me and the other babygirls.

I had the cutest little gingham outfit.

Anyhow, a tad about me, just to add to the diverse-titty of us. I came out as a lesbian-feminist in 1979 in one of the many super-insulated, almost separatist, lesbian-feminist communities around the country at the time. Three years later I discovered the word femme, and knew it was who I was. I found this word in the middle of a worldwide protest movement against long range nuclear missiles, when I was sleeping many nights in a lesbo-constructed protest structure on the grounds of a corporation that built the guidance systems for these missiles. I knew femme was me because I did things like: 1) painted my bedroom in the lesbo collective houseshold pink 2) decorated said room with my babydolls from my childhood 3) wore a collection of thrift store dresses, and skirts against my hairy legs amidst the jeans and political t-shirts 4) threw tea parties and garden parties for the grumpy lesbian masses.

Anyhow, all of this was tolerated by the androgynous masses, probably because I did it in a butchless, asexual vacuum. The femme who I am has always been just that, who I am.

I think my biggest struggle with inclusion/feeling sidelined on these sites has been the anti-lesbian sentiment which is sometimes subtle and sometimes oh-so-very Overt.

And, being on these sites has been an opportunity to enrich myself and my femmeness in so many ways. To be friends with girls/women/femmes who wear makeup and high heels has been profoundly moving and affirming. You all have always scared the shit outta me!!!!

[Arwen]

So I'm late to this party. Bite me. I will be multi-quoting in purple and using emoticons. Double bite me.


Is the expected demur and polite veneer used as a way to silence us?


Sometimes I think it is a way to silence ourselves. I think I try to force myself into the "expected roles". And you know what? It hurts. It doesn't feel good to do something or say something simply because that's what "our community" does or expects of me.

But when I don't toe the "party" line, I am in danger of being ostracized. And that hurts too. Sometimes more than doing what is expected.

So do I :bdsmslave:to the expected party line or do I become a :sumo: and make my own way?

It's an ongoing struggle.


Yes, I am sometimes guilty of judging other femmes harshly.

For example, if a femme posts in a certain font (pink) and is always serving up virtual cupcakes and tea, I am less likely (read: not at all) to listen to what she has to say. I WILL skip over her. And not because the font is hard to read (it is) but because it is "too girly" and that reads as "too ridiculous."

So guilty of this but more forgiving when it is from someone I have become friends with OR that I have seen post "meatier" posts as well. Those that post only fluff are often looked down on by those that don't.

Why is that? Do those that post only fluff take away from who I am in any way? Do their words and colors and emoticons diminish me personally? The concept of "femme" as a whole?

No. Not even one iota. What FemmeA says in purple, italic, Georgia font about being a babygirl has NOTHING to do with me. It, like the color of her font, doesn't rub off.

So I need to check my own "party" line at the door. I am as guilty of doing to that femme as what has been done to me in an effort to silence or censure me. :seconddoh:


Ha! Perhaps at times I do. Other times I get incredibly frustrated when my non-demur/polite mouth results in anger from others. I make it a point to take care of me and speak my needs (not rudely or aggressively) and at times have felt frowned upon for this.


We've talked about this, I think. I am seen as rude and aggressive quite often because of my very dogmatic way of expressing myself. Because I prefer to be honest and upfront, that is often seen as "mean."

I think being called "mean" is a way of trying to force me into someone else's box. So I am learning to stand on my own two feet (at 48...you think I would have learned this by now) and not worry about it. But it still hurts.

I've learned a lot specifically from you, A. Because of you. Through you. From you. You have been an amazing teacher even when you didn't know it.


In June's dream world, which is very different from the Barbie variety, what they will find is a full spectrum of Femme-ness (c) that includes all of us regardless of our skill level or presentation. I want to say to them "Hey, Baby Femme! Wear that damn baseball hat backwards if you want! Don't be afraid to change that tire and brag about it! Fix that friggin' sink! Win at Pool because you've got the Mad Skillz!"


Sometimes, the stereotyping threads, to me, are fun simply because they point out how different we all are. Why not start a thread here that addresses this very thing, June? That femme is self-defined. Period.

It is not "who I'm boinking" defined.
It is not "what color is my lipstick" defined.
It is not "how long is my dildo" defined.
It is not "how polite am I in public" defined.
It is not "how short my skirts are" defined.
and so on.


i choose the girly things FOR me, no one else. whenever i've decided to be without Lovers i didnt stop with the girly stuff. it's MY stuff. it's ME. it's not an act for someone else.

my lesbian friends used to ream me for being myself all the time. we're not friends anymore. if my femme friends begin to do the same i'll happily do without them as well. i love my friends but without them, i'm just fine.


Amen. Just A-freaking-men (or woman?). This was very well said. I particularly liked "It's not an act for someone else."


I reread an old post of mine on another site, replete with these apologies, just today and I wanted to vomit. In life, as well as on line, I still haven't found how to be as strong an advocate for myself as I am for everyone else.

That, Lynn, is what I call a journey. You are on one. I'm on one. Mine started in 2006(I think... maybe 2003) of acknowledging and exploring the term femme. Hang in there. And don't stop apologizing until you feel like it. :) Even that is yours and no one gets to define you.

My favorite Queer As Folk quote? Brian Kinney - No regrets, no apologies, no excuses. Fabulous outlook!


See! Another reason I love you. You give great quote!


Anyhow, a tad about me, just to add to the diverse-titty of us. I came out as a lesbian-feminist in 1979 in one of the many super-insulated, almost separatist, lesbian-feminist communities around the country at the time.
Snip really good stuff
I think my biggest struggle with inclusion/feeling sidelined on these sites has been the anti-lesbian sentiment which is sometimes subtle and sometimes oh-so-very Overt.

And, being on these sites has been an opportunity to enrich myself and my femmeness in so many ways. To be friends with girls/women/femmes who wear makeup and high heels has been profoundly moving and affirming. You all have always scared the shit outta me!!!!

I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.

And isn't it odd. I'm fine with calling myself a dyke, but not a lesbian. Must explore that. :reader:

[evolveme]

Butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.



{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

[Arwen]

{{{Bit}}}

I think this is a great place to talk about the ways in which that has happened. And why are we silencing one another? What does it mean that we do this?

Are we, as a friend suggested (thanks hudson), playing out the evolutionary battle in a competition for resources (butch/masculine people)? Is this what that competition begins to look like when it becomes so fiercely ingrained?

And is this why our masculine counterparts seem to be in their own power-struggle? Or does it truly, at baseline, have to do with misogyny?

Is misogyny the result of that struggle?

These questions aren't really for this thread, I suppose, so forgive my tangential mind. But I do wonder about the ways that we silence one another. And at least about the more topical reasons as to why.

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

We throw ourselves into our lives so thoroughly. When someone else comes along who may take up space in our lives that we are not willing to yield, we want to scream :shutup:.

Instead of screaming, we turn into those catty, nasty women none of us seem to like or want to be. We gather with our friends to be reminded of how fabulous WE are and how fabulouse THEY aren't.

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread. :)

[evolveme]

I've said this before in other threads, but since y'all don't thread stalk me like you should, I'll say it again.

Our identity as femmes is frequently linked to our masculine counterpart. But butches are never burdened with this. Their standing in a community is never identified by their female counterpart. For example, if we are dating someone who is female-identified, we are expected to eschew the trans community. If we are dating a transperson, we suddenly must shun female-identified butches. And, heaven forbid, if we date another femme, we must simply pack up, turn in our femme card, and leave the Mother Ship.

Sometimes, it feels as though we are hauled off by our hair to join the "their" caveman clan.

We are both subsumed and erased in turns.

This in itself is the crux of the reason behind my decision to write this letter to all of you. I wrote something once about how I do not see myself as "invisible." I am not an invisible femme. Whether or not I am seen is merely a determination as to the clarity in the eyesight of others.

I intend, only, to stand tall enough so as not to be missed should they endeavor to look.

yes! and this reminds me to share further: i don't subscribe to the belief that one can be a transensual femme or stonefemme--or any other kind of *femme* that is dependent on who you date or how you don't touch your partner's sexbits.

thanks, blush!

I hope more ladypeople come in here and read this!

[evolveme]

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I :stillheart: you like you don't know what,

e

[Diva]

I do feel like some of the reasons we push each other down is to climb on top of each other in order to reach some fantasy superior position. To what end?

Are we afraid we'll suffocate? Is it ~ forgive me ~ "every man for himself" kind of mentality? Because frankly, I don't get that. But I do believe it is fear~based.

And I guess the older I get, I just don't have TIME for it. I don't have time for Pot/Kettle stuff. It's that stones/glass houses, heat/kitchen thing.

And yes.....I can be catty and judgemental and I'm so not perfect....and it just kills me (not really) how we get so whiney when we are criticized about our behavior and then go and do the same damn thing! What manner of heinous fuckery is that?

That being said, I don't think femmes have the corner of the market on THAT.

Now. Will I get shot down for being brutally honest about this? Maybe. But I can tell You this: I have no problem loading the rifle and handing it to You. Fire away.

[Arwen]

it just kills me (not really) how we get so whiney when we are criticized about our behavior and then go and do the same damn thing! What manner of heinous fuckery is that?


I so agree with this, Diva. But I think those that do not react to the criticism are simply not buying into the "corrections" we offer. They are living their lives in their own way and to their own drummers. That may be why there is more than one band. :)

I wonder when I criticize someone...am I hoping they will correct their ways? Toe my "party" line? I have to think on that a bit more. I do know that my own response to open, honest critique (and there is a difference, to me, between critique and criticism) is to bounce it off a few others. If I get buy in from those I trust, then I am apt to listen to the critique.

If I don't? Grin, well I continue on as I have and let the criticism roll on down the old back.

I do hope no one "shoots" you down. I think your opinion and worldview is as valuable as the rest here.

[Boots13]

Dear E;
I love your style ! And certainly the
head-on way you broach subjects that seem
to be "blind spots" in the vision test. This thread
is an eye-opening education regarding the Femme
"smackdown" by way of Butch, Patriarchal,
Societal and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.

We are all fighting mortal combat in an effort
to be seen and not steamrolled into a homogeny
of expectation. But it pains me to think that femmes
feel they have been relegated to "Best Supporting
Actress" in our symbiotic relationships (Femme - Butch)
when the meat and potatoes of validation is : see
me for who I am.

I love this thread, and I have much to recognize. Perhaps
this is my first lesson in understanding Butchbull
behavior in the Femme china shop (not meant to
infer Femmes are delicate) as well as the snares and pitfalls
of Femme V Femme.

Lambaste me if you will, but I'm hanging around the halls ...this thread is good stuff !

signed :
Excuse me Waiter, there's a butch in my soup....
Boots

[evolveme]

and the worst (from my perspective)
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's
that "friendly fire" , being shanked
by a stiletto, that has always perplexed me.
[/COLOR]


What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

[bonne-maman]

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]I am one who has been overtly anti-lesbian because of past hurts. I do not id as a lesbian for a lot of reasons I have gone diarrhea-mouth over on the Dash site. I take ownership here and now of allowing those specific women (because Gods know it has not been all lesbians) who hurt me to color my view of the word lesbian.

And your last line? Me too! Seriously.

P.S. Did you come out in upstate NY? Because those were some hardcore dyke-feminists.
:reader:


Arwen, thank you so much for acknowledging anti-lesbian stuff. I have not experienced this with you, ever, but having you acknowledge this affirms my experience with others, which is comforting to me. And, I came out in Minneapolis, but I think our community here in the late 70's and 80's was very similar to the upstate NY community. Thank god many of us finally found our perspective, and senses of humor, again.

I think it may be that the competition is fear-based. Not just fear of butch as resource but fear of not being enough.

[snip]

This, to me, has nothing to do with butch-femme and everything to do with SuperId, Id, and Ego.

And, for what it's worth, I think this is very apropos to the dynamic and evolution of this thread. :)


I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.

Dear Bonne,

babygirl ethnographer on a mission.

You just fuckin' made my goddamned day.

I :stillheart: you like you don't know what,

e

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddamned day when you say shit like this!

[Diva]

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.


And this is the crux of the matter, n'est pas?

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory? I can be cordial to just about anyone....but I don't feel I need to be joined at the hip to a femme just because.....does that make me a femme betrayor....a community slayer?
I can love everyone....but I don't think that means I must LIKE everyone, does it?

[evolveme]

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?



*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

[Diva]

e
you are one of those pretty, put-together girls that I have been scared of all my life! You make my goddmaned day when you say shit like this!



I love it when we curse.

[evolveme]

And this is the crux of the matter, n'est pas?

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory? I can be cordial to just about anyone....but I don't feel I need to be joined at the hip to a femme just because.....does that make me a femme betrayor....a community slayer?
I can love everyone....but I don't think that means I must LIKE everyone, does it?



Well, dog no.

If you're an out and out dicknit, I'm not likely to give you the time of day.

Besides, I don't wear a watch,

e

[bonne-maman]

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.


:rainsing:

[Mister Bent]

Jesus fuck, I do have to say that it is wonderful that both here and in the female-IDed butch thread that we are talking about anti-lesbian stuff openly. Whew. I feel that giant chip about to slip off of my shoulder.


:rainsing:


Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

[bonne-maman]

Let me ask You.....must we be friends with EVERYone? Just because there is this Femme Bond thing going on? Is it ever ok just to "divorce" yourself from a friendship because it's no longer satisfactory?



Diva, I could never be friends with someone just because of any one thing......and I don't expect it from anyone else either. I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all" :musicnote:

Whoa!

Considering the vast interior of complicated shit-I've-got-to-fix*, I wonder if others have been misreading me this way and possibly, you know, shanking me unnecessarily for it? <squeak> I almost hate to write this here because of the way it will undoubtedly sound disingenuous and ...well, oogy.

But, Bonney, I see you as a proud and prime authority on all those things I set out to do but never got around to for...laziness. Selfishness. In this way, you don't so much scare me, as humble me. That's hard pie to swallow, you know? I admit to having avoided you for it in the past. I didn't want to look at the part of myself I wasn't living up to.

I wonder how much all of us represent these kind of weird (and possibly erroneous) things to one another, and the work we do to overcome it so that we can finally enjoy each other's company?

*seriously, man. i am full up with it.

Oh yeah, good stuff there e. :goodpost: This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.

I love it when we curse.

I fucking love it too Diva.

[blush]

So Goof and I have been talking about this thread all morning over coffee.

And I prattled onandonandon about how the femmes will trot into "masculine-space" discussions (ie--the Butch Identity thread or the Braveheart thread) and throw our pennies down, but in "femme-space" threads, it is rare that the attention is reciprocated.

It took 13 posts in here before little man posted.

In a "masculine-space" thread, usually the 3rd or 4th post is a femme.

Why?

Now, Goof pointed out that he doesn't generally post in femme-spaces because he thinks we need this space without interference. Which I totally get. BUT would we rather have the support or the space?

And now I'm being told I have to go because my breakfast is getting cold.

[evolveme]

So Goof and I have been talking about this thread all morning over coffee.

And I prattled onandonandon about how the femmes will trot into "masculine-space" discussions (ie--the Butch Identity thread or the Braveheart thread) and throw our pennies down, but in "femme-space" threads, it is rare that the attention is reciprocated.

It took 13 posts in here before little man posted.

In a "masculine-space" thread, usually the 3rd or 4th post is a femme.

Why?

Now, Goof pointed out that he doesn't generally post in femme-spaces because he thinks we need this space without interference. Which I totally get. BUT would we rather have the support or the space?

And now I'm being told I have to go because my breakfast is getting cold.

Personally, I prefer the support.

And I think it's about damn time.

AND... I have no trouble at all pointing out when it starts to read too much about them.

Thanks for pointing this out, blush; I've been wanting to say something too.

[Passionaria]

WOW, I so appreciate this.

Sisters VS competitors

In the Pollyanna of my heart, where the world resides in a flow of goodness I deeply desire to see women, femmes as my sisters. In this place we have ethical boundaries, kind intentions, create a support system where we take joy in watching each other blossom into the most beautiful flowers we can be. A place where our hearts are safe, and trust is an abundant commodity. I have met a few femmes who I can honestly share this space, and I love them for this.

I am somewhat new to this community, and I have to say I have been shocked by some of the things I have witnessed in the name of getting the butch. I don't know why, because straight women do it all the time. I guess I had hoped that a group of women with no men involved would just "do better". Were women after all why can't we figure it out?????

I think the story may be, we're humans and being loved is a basic human need. We all want it but are conditioned to believe we don't automatically deserve it, just because we were born, which I think is the truth. We are taught to compete and fight for it, be pretty enough, sexy enough, Susie homemaker enough, just the right blend of innocent and naughty, and if we're the best f*** ever, we will surely be loved. So I agree this is a tall order to fill, and it's exhausting to be worthy of love. How can we not be afraid, afraid of not being worthy. It's like the golden carrot or something I'll try harder, just love me. I think that is where the competition come from.

I think it is important to note, that we did not create these conditions, we were born into them. So, do we owe allegiance to these false pretenses? What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

Maybe the real power is in loving our selves so completely that we believe we deserve to be loved, just because we exist. Then what is there to compete about?

:anothersnowman: Passionaria

[bonne-maman]

Well.

I guess I may as well own it publicly.

I have definitely been guilty of some anti-lesbian posturing. Just because I have been treated badly by some lesbians in some spaces, does not make it acceptable for me to be "anti-lesbian." No sir/ma'am.

And by having held that position, I can see where when I have been playful (in particular with you, Bonne) that maybe it's hard to distinguish when I'm being a dick and when I'm playing. And really, how would anyone know the difference. So, yeah, I'm going to do some work there.

Well, even though I have never felt anything but sweetness in your playing around with me Mr. Clark Kent, I have seen you be a bit biting around cyber town at times. I appreciate you saying this, it means a lot to me coming from a guyperson type like you. I guess some of the most hurtful things about lesbians I have encountered on these sites is when a butch or guytype person says "I would never date a lesbian." This makes me feel pretty much like shit. :wtf: It's hard to read something like that without internalizing it.

I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. :p Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me! :walking-poodle:

[SuperFemme]

What a great post, Boots.

And yes, we do cannibalize each other, don't we? All of us (not just Femmes), but in our quarters and what with Relational Aggression it can be so...nasty.

As it is socially acceptable, and even encouraged as a rite of passage, for masculine creatures to rough-it-out as a means to work-it-out, out-right aggressions are hardly frowned upon in the school yard. But girls are supposed to "be nice and look sweet."

So what do we do with our naturally arising feelings of aggression? (We are animals after all.) We have devised elaborate inter-social methods of torturing and ostracizing one another.

The cruel word spoken in clever jest. (plausible deniablity)

Unkind Gossips.

Out-casting. (a very fickle art)

And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.

There are more.

We've all shanked a lady with a fine stiletto, whether we wear them or not.

I have experienced everything on the list.

I'd never had a b/f community before and was SHOCKED to say the least.

In the end I chose to not shut down, not participate and not disallow myself from further potential Femme friendships.

I am so glad that five years later I have forged some solid Femme friendships.

I don't feel that the syndrome of gossip, shunning, or the naming of the slut is entirely based in misogyny. I think it is first and foremost Fear based. So many of us have found a place where we belong after a lifetime of NOT belonging.

Some believe they have to *fight* for that place. Climb up a rung of some imagined Hierarchy. If someone comes along that threatens that they are taken out. We should be offering a hand and pulling other Femme's in and up not out. There really IS room for all of us at the table.

[Arwen]

Osting from the laundrymat where I'm doing my girly lacy things and no flannel or jeans of course.

Just read this in my email and thought it added to this thought.


"Your real security is yourself. You know you can do it, and they can't ever take that away from you."
-Mae West

That is what we do. We bring all of us butch and femme.

Forgive lack of pretty colors and font. Grin

[evolveme]

What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????

Maybe the real power is in loving our selves so completely that we believe we deserve to be loved, just because we exist. Then what is there to compete about?

:anothersnowman: Passionaria

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.



I know I am kinda derailing, but I don't feel like making a, "why don't you wanna date lesbians?" thread. :p Besides, I'll live, I got better things to do than cry about people I don't know who don't wanna date me! :walking-poodle:

I like the idea of this thread, bonney. Even if I don't want to date them either. ;) I understand that for them it has to do with not being a woman and that this is the strict definition they have of lesbian, but I am not ready to give up Lesbian and I'm not sure I ever will be. I don't care if it's political for me and that gets on your nerves. It is also personal. It is my story, how I came into this queer life. I honor it.

Thank you and the end.

[SuperFemme]

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?

[Boots13]

Hi Passionaria,

I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

.

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

[Lynn]

How do We meet at a crossroads regarding the L word?

How do we make sure *not* to visit the sins of others upon the innocent without negating everyone's truth?


Can you say more?

[SuperFemme]

Can you say more?

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

[Passionaria]

Hi Passionaria,


I believe that men/masculine others are also in this competitive tension with one another, so, for me, there is the question of the Darwinian aim that I spoke to earlier. We are, most of us, looking for a mate. I disbelieve the Patriarchy has tooled a competition solely among women in order to establish control of us (it seems to create more chaos than order), but I do see mechanisms of control in the methods we undertake in order to compete, i.e. clothing, cosmetics, socially prescribed behaviors.

As to the seeming pandemic of "unworthiness" we seem to suffer. I wonder about the ways in which we have so thoroughly disconnected from nature (feminine?) and from one another in this Western, individualist culture that dominates us. The more unworthy we feel, the more we will consume. This, of course, props up the capitalist structure our patriarchy has established. And round and round we go.

.

Hi Evolveme,
This is a great conversation.I think the chaos serves a purpose. It defuses power, it's been used as a tool for centuries. All of that existed before mass consumerism, although the competition does fuel capitalism wonderfully.

Christianity was the disconnect with the divine feminine. And that was about controlling the masses. We were born into sin, basically unworthy unless we follow XYZ,to redeem ourselves, presets determined by men in power, who mandated that women carry the sin of the world, the original sin. I think this is a huge factor in why we in this culture anyway believe we are not worthy of being loved.

[apretty]

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

i'm so glad that this has been brought up, i feel so *protective* of the lesbian community, (whenever i hear it bashed) tho i really don't ID as lesbian, simply stated i've got more in common with *her* than not.

(lately--post prop 8--i'm thinking more about aligning ourselves, vs. our few 'differences')

[hippieflowergirl]

{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

i think you misunderstand my point. While it is true that i am always conscious of posting in a way that supports butches and transmen, and while i did have that epiphany about polite equalling caring--or not equalling it, as the case may be, lol--adele had asked if we, as femmes, enforce the male-centric viewpoint (or masculine-centric). That was my main point: Yes, indeed we do; it has happened to me in a very negative way that has silenced me.

butches have not silenced me.

Transmen have not silenced me.

Femmes have silenced me.

i'm sorry that i didn't make the point more effectively.

I don't want to leave you thinking that i'm backpedaling, or that i haven't said the things you quoted. It does seem to me, though, that you missed my emphasis and thought i was saying it was the butches who left me feeling this way when i was trying to say it was femmes who have had these judgmental interactions with me.

I suppose this is another area where i haven't been clear enough---after a while i start to feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground and so i do use shorthand references, my apologies--anyhow, when i posted the last one you quoted, about always being careful not to hit the hot buttons or use the trigger phrases, and being discouraged enough to just not post? That has come about because of the silencing. It didn't used to be that way for me. I've always been conscious about posting respectfully, not just about butches and transmen but about all of us, but i didn't used to feel so hopelessly discouraged.

And now i really do feel like i'm beating the subject into the ground. *wry smile* time for me to go offline; if i'm not back tomorrow i'll be back monday.


~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)

[SuperFemme]

i'm so glad that this has been brought up, i feel so *protective* of the lesbian community, (whenever i hear it bashed) tho i really don't ID as lesbian, simply stated i've got more in common with *her* than not.

(lately--post prop 8--i'm thinking more about aligning ourselves, vs. our few 'differences')

I absolutely think we need to align ourselves.

Perhaps the key is in not making the personal the general?

I have experienced shunning but to attach that to the general Lesbian Community is encompassing the masses in an event that involves only a few.

Am I not in turn BECOMING what I am angry about in doing so?

[blush]

AND... I have no trouble at all pointing out when it starts to read too much about them.



Right?

And if I were being brutally honest, all too frequently the support we are given is reflective of how we "stand by our men."

[evolveme]

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

Boots, I want you to know that I am really, really glad you're here and listening AND participating.

On my first reading of your post, I was quietly pleased. I identified with Fru.

On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...e....:goodpost: This is back to the whole id/ego thing. Yeah, we all represent to each other what we fear and feel inadequate about in ourselves. This is why diversity in any situation brings such strength to all. If we can love and be comfortable with people who are not just different, but who we are uncomfortable with or fear, then our inner being type-self is getting super-strong. Ok, this lesbian-speak is freakin me out.


shootdamn. now i want to have your frickin' babies

[Mister Bent]

Right?

And if I were being brutally honest, all too frequently the support we are given is reflective of how we "stand by our men."

And then not only is your identity made invisible, but your beliefs, opinions, arguments are invalidated for simply being in support of "the man."

As if there is no strength to your argument. As if your opinion was not informed by your own values.

"Little lady."
"Darlin'"

[apretty]

~ a-fucking-men ~
~ halle-fucking-lujah ~
~ and holla back ~
(as we trash-a-licious types here in the ghettoplex say)

how and in what ways have you allowed yourself to be silenced by femmes? sorry, i do feel like this is blaming the "femme", and as the "femme" i'm feeling curious about what this means, because so so so often i've heard women described as gossiping, catty, skank bitches--by MEN, so i would just like to make absolute sure that we're not perpetuating false stereotypes.

so i would love to look at specifics or maybe we could say, 'my expectations were xyz, and a femme friend did this....' or 'one time a femme did.....' because i truly believe this is painting femme with broad negative brush strokes when we say 'femmes did...' and don'tchaknow that keeps us all down in the misogyny muck(ery) :(

[Lynn]

I am mulling over in my head how people come in and say "I was shunned and ostracized by the Lesbian community" because it is their truth.

I am mulling over in my head the people that ARE the Lesbian community coming in and being hurt beyond measure because They did NOT participate in such hurtful behavior and it is NOT their truth.

Both groups of people have valid points and feelings that are in complete contradiction.

How DO WE get around this?

Maybe we could start by not generalizing to an entire community when speaking about individual experiences. I am suspicious about the existence of an actual lesbian community. Or, for that matter, a butch femme community or any other worldwide experience of community. Any lesbian who went out of her way to ostracize an individual, or who got a bunch of her friends to join in on the meanness is not someone who is in *my* lesbian community.

Have you seen the posts (mine included) that put in disclaimers and small print to utterly ensure that this is no one else's viewpoint but the poster's. When, in fact, that's all any one of us can speak to at any time, no matter how sweeping and all-inclusive our language gets.

On line, there are different levels of education, worldliness, writing and speaking abililties, intelligences, etc. No d'uh. We know this, but yet we often don't give each other a fucking break. I think when we're discussing different points of view, we just offer a little kindness and benefit of the doubt and that could go a long way toward avoiding pissing wars. Sarcasm and insults should be relegated to the fun and fluff threads. :)

My lesbian warrior with great hair identity is not threatened by anyone's babygirl identity, lesbian or not. Don't be afraid of me. I love you and I mean it.

[SuperFemme]

Maybe we could start by not generalizing to an entire community when speaking about individual experiences. I am suspicious about the existence of an actual lesbian community. Or, for that matter, a butch femme community or any other worldwide experience of community. Any lesbian who went out of her way to ostracize an individual, or who got a bunch of her friends to join in on the meanness is not someone who is in *my* lesbian community.

Have you seen the posts (mine included) that put in disclaimers and small print to utterly ensure that this is no one else's viewpoint but the poster's. When, in fact, that's all any one of us can speak to at any time, no matter how sweeping and all-inclusive our language gets.

On line, there are different levels of education, worldliness, writing and speaking abililties, intelligences, etc. No d'uh. We know this, but yet we often don't give each other a fucking break. I think when we're discussing different points of view, we just offer a little kindness and benefit of the doubt and that could go a long way toward avoiding pissing wars. Sarcasm and insults should be relegated to the fun and fluff threads. :)

My lesbian warrior with great hair identity is not threatened by anyone's babygirl identity, lesbian or not. Don't be afraid of me. I love you and I mean it.

I love you back and I love love love your post. Every. Single. Word.

[evolveme]

how and in what ways have you allowed yourself to be silenced by femmes? sorry, i do feel like this is blaming the "femme", and as the "femme" i'm feeling curious about what this means, because so so so often i've heard women described as gossiping, catty, skank bitches--by MEN, so i would just like to make absolute sure that we're not perpetuating false stereotypes.

so i would love to look at specifics or maybe we could say, 'my expectations were xyz, and a femme friend did this....' or 'one time a femme did.....' because i truly believe this is painting femme with broad negative brush strokes when we say 'femmes did...' and don'tchaknow that keeps us all down in the misogyny muck(ery) :(

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

[blush]

Bravo Bravo Bravo !!! I feel like school is in session this subject and post has my rapt attention !

so can I offer this personal perspective about prescribed behaviors ?

I am assuming those prescribed (patriarchal-induced) behaviors to be quiet, malleable, supportive, complacent?

I stated to Fru, during one of our roundabouts (read, arguments) Jezzuz, you've got a streak ...Yes, I SAID THAT to the person I love, admire and cherish most in the world...my heart of hearts !

But what I've come to appreciate is that I rely on that streak ! I hate being in the sights of the femme howitzer, but I know that it comes from her place of strength, Independence and that "don't fuck with me" undercurrent of confidence, all wrapped in a Southern Charm that is completely disarming !

Nice and pretty (though she undoubtedly is ) isn't going to
singlehandedly protect her or us. I love knowing that her streak is borne of hardship, life experience and a clear vision for HER future. I am blessed to be a part of that. I know that I am safe with her.

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime. :batmoose:

[T D]

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"

[blush]

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.
I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

[SuperFemme]

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

I think that just as women encompass masculine traits, men emcompass feminine traits. That was my read on it.

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...
the sabotage of Femme Cannibalism. It's that "friendly fire"

apropos terminology. i really like that. thank you for adding it to the bin i keep my brain in.

there's been talk here of duality that reaches into me right now and has for a while. i dislike the greater vs. lesser paradigms laid on some relationships, hetero/homo/trans/poly/inter sexual and so on ad nauseum. it deprives any supposed "weaker" partner of strength and capability as well as leeching the possibility for sensitivity from the so-called "stronger".

i'm also fixated on the "house divided" mentality of part of our community. i don't remember the exact wording of the saying. something about a house divided against itself not being able to stand. is some of our disapproval of one another due to an ingrained sort of self-hatred provided by a larger hetero-centric community at large? do we try to look and act like the "enemy" (not a literal reference, please don't send mail) so that we can both participate in the superiority mindset as well as fly under the radar. you know the drill: well at least i'm not like those people. i'm normal. no one would even know if it weren't for __________.

there's a book called brazen femme: queering femininity by elizabeth ruth that came to mind when i was rereading the thread this morning. when speaking of a woman the author is calling the quantum femme. it's a long quote but it's a good one:

She's perpetually stuck in a time-warp between a neon bright high flashing eclipse and absolute invisibility. Can anyone see her?

She's here to remind the galaxy that it is possible to be more than one half of any duality, more than just nd extension, an opposite: male/female. Rational/emotional. Butch/femme. So, she's nobody's princess, baby doll, babe. Her ass is her own until she needs a good spanking. Even then, she's nobody's slut but the slut inside you.

Moving in waves - not steps - her posture is regal. Her shoulders are back, she wears the dress before the dress wears her. Or maybe not. Maybe she can't crawl out of bed some days, can't choose the proper costume. Quantum femme knows costumes and weapons are one in the same and she knows all too well the rolling pictures in some minds, of a buxom, tight-waisted milkmaid. Ready-made-to-order. You'd like to think she'll eat you for supper. Lick. Suck. Devour. Let you off the hook? In your dreams.

The truth is she can make you comfortable in your skin even when you shouldn't be, and she wears great pain. There's a reason you'll never see a quantum femme cry in public. Her acid rain tears would flood the planet, crate a burning wave, tsunami undertow that threatens to swallow everything...

So beware. Up close, microscopically, she might not be what you envision. She might shock with her unkempt reality...You can't label her neuroses, identify her predilections, or even predict what she would eat for breakfast. She's slippery, gliding through expectations like spilt mercury dancing down your leg, curdling and separating. She's been many people in many places but somehow always the same.

She's attracted to power because it's like looking in the mirror...Don't touch too softly or she won't notice, and don't wait for an invitation...You can't begin to imagine what sadomasochistic lifetimes she's consente to. Or, those she didn't. You can't know her by defining her parameters, testing her tolerance or crossing her boundaries. Quantum femme has a voracious appetite for the truth and the truth hurts most of all.

If you want to win her favor don't spread out across her mattress like you're waiting for a hot meal. Or preen publicly like a peacock then privately hide in her breasts, an ostrich burying your head in the sand. She's already somebody's mother, siser and wife. She's put in her volunteer hours and doated to charity. She doesn't want to demand that you make her come - she wants to dare you. Make her come so she can go away, leave herself with the pounding pounding of your hand, fist, anything inside her center. Let the vibrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrbrations on her clit stop time.

She's woman enough to give it up for you and astronomical enough to make each explosion feel new. She won't break or fall into pieces. She knows no singular force strong enough to reach her now...She doesn't crave picket fences, station wagons, or diamond rings. Her people are flawed beyond repair so she's had to learn to love and hate simultaneously. Don't be surprised by the company she keeps.

you've no idea how much i wish i'd said something this remarkable. (or how much i wish i felt the confidence of this quantum femme on at least a semi-weekly basis!)

while i was working the other day i saw a woman who epitomized these words and found myself wanting to follow her home and sit at her feet for the rest of my life, if only to understand what it was that she knew that i've never managed to comprehend completely.

so many lessons. so little room in the bin

[Bit]

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"



That's a huge question, TD, and may take a long time to answer, if we can ever completely define it at all. For a start--a very oversimplified start--the general idea is that we have all been socialized to equate "male" with "best, most worthy" and "female" with "least, unworthy" and so we bring that into our interactions in everyday life and online both, equating Butch with male and therefore devaluing Femme. The trick is to understand when we are doing that, and why... sometimes when one or the other of us points it out, it's very hard on people who are not used to being analytical or who haven't taken women's studies classes, because they don't have the frame of reference they need to see it properly--they can often get offended and hurt by other people's attempts to explain. It can be hard to create a community culture that is understandable to everyone given our different backgrounds and educations.

[Bit]

There is SO MUCH to answer in this thread and I am already four pages behind; I hope y'all will be patient as I bring up posts from pages back.

About Butch participation in Femme threads? I prefer the support also---BUT please, let's keep this thread from turning into a flirt thread when the tension mounts? That has always annoyed me when it has happened to threads I was posting in and I hope we won't do it here.

[Boots13]

I'm quoting your whole post cuz I don't want to take it out of context.

But it speaks to me of that femme disconnect. That idea that there exists two sides to a femme, the bitch and the angel. When in reality, both are present at all times.

For me, it's not a "streak" of strength. I'll shank someone NICELY anytime. :batmoose:


...On second reading, I had to stop a minute. I asked myself, "What about when we aren't 'all wrapped in Southern charm?" What about when we aren't sweet and nice and pretty? What about when we do not see ourselves as your safety or your comfort?

When we're called too abrasive, or The Bitch, because we do not meet the standard that has been set for us. Because we are clearing our own path and making our own decisions in a world that would do anything to name us incapable of the task?

What about That Femme? I think she lives in all of us. Some of us are less afraid to show her, maybe.

I stand corrected, and rightfully so. I was inadvertently dismissive when I described her quality as a streak...it isn't that transient (to be a streak) it's a quality borne of her life experiences and her assertiveness and the vision she has of her future. So starts my lesson.

Addressing a disconnect between "bitch and angel" (Blushes words!) ...I wish she was here so that we could kick this can around...I wonder if /when she feels that? Though I feel I would be speaking out of turn to comment on her feelings.
I cant wait til we talk tonight ...now I want to dig into this with her!

But pondering my "feeling safe" thing. This feeling is new for me. I trust her, with my heart and I trust her with our future, one that we are building together...and from this trust comes a feeling of safety. Who she is (separate and independent from the "us" that we are creating) is where the trust started. Her values, her code, her strengths, her armor, her fierceness, her assertiveness, her charm, her manners, her emotions. She is not just one of these, but an ever shifting culmination of these qualities and more.

This thread has my head spinning...

I am engrossed in the different discussions going on here, and thrilled with the information and personal opinion that is being presented.

[Bit]

I've changed over the past 10 or so years I've identified as Femme. I used to believe it was all about my power and in hindsight my power looked more like King Kong stomping on legitimate thoughts, opinions and questions of those that may have differed from mine. My power was to 'squash' not only the opinion, but to take a deeper stance and make a stronger impact on the person to ensure they didn't continue to hold opinions that aligned with the ones they shared.

While I haven't seen this in your posts, TPT--maybe because you were already changing by the time we started interacting?--I have experienced it from others. I call it "gatekeeping" behavior. People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.

For me, my Femme strength is about focusing on how to get to what I truly want and believe in without hurting people or countering opinions along the way.

I like this. It's pretty much how I try to handle things as well; I will speak about my opinions, I will stand up for people who seem to need it, but I don't need to argue nor do I need to "defeat" anyone. Other people's opinions cannot change the truth of my life, of my being.... and I do not have the right to try to change the truth of their lives, no matter how wrong I think they might be. It was a hard path learning these lessons. Thank you for a chance to reflect on them again.

I never felt more invisible or silenced than I felt around my father, whose favorite word for me was "Shhhh!". That's probably a whole 'nother' thread.....

And then I never felt more liberated than (1) when I came out (after 15 years of marriage to the father of my beautiful daughters) and (2) when my father died. (I know that sounds horrible.)

I don't think it's horrible and I don't think it's a whole nuther thread, either.... I think it speaks to deep lifelong conditioning as a female, which certainly impacts anyone as a Femme, especially as she tries to find her voice in adulthood. I had the same kind of conditioning from my mother... she didn't have to die for me to break at least partially free, but I DID have to invoke the Geographical Cure and move halfway across the country, yanno?

[Joke stereotype threads] This is problematic for me, and I've talked about this before: I think sometimes these online Forums, or communities, if you will are the first step in figuring out who/what you are and what your Primary Desires might be, so it's irksome (Really pisses me off) to think that a questioning Femme might stumble across one of those threads and feel intimidated because they in fact don't leave the house in stiletto's and a full face of Mac everyday and in fact, they DO know how to build/maintain/create shit.

I was one of those newbies, but I do have to say that it was the SERIOUS threads which did me more damage than the joke threads, even though both played a role. I'm really glad that the serious "how to be a Femme" threads have all long since fallen by the wayside.

In June's dream world, which is very different from the Barbie variety, what they will find is a full spectrum of Femme-ness (c) that includes all of us regardless of our skill level or presentation. I want to say to them "Hey, Baby Femme! Wear that damn baseball hat backwards if you want! Don't be afraid to change that tire and brag about it! Fix that friggin' sink! Win at Pool because you've got the Mad Skillz!"

And finally: "Even if you don't have a Butch or Transman to hang on your every word, you're still a Femme. You don't have to wait for anyone to validate who you are."

I. Love. Your. Dream. World.

Amazingly enough, mine looks just like it! :cheesy:

I have to go offline--a friend just called to say she's bringing over a piece of furniture she doesn't need anymore!! Wooohooo! Storage!--so I'll talk to y'all later.

[Jet]

Great post e.

I have found life to have gone down an interesting path since I fell in love with a trans person. People keep trying to relegate me to being a piece of furniture (soffa) and insisting that my label must change. I MUST be straight, look at who I love.

The thing is: I am the same me I have always been.

Hunter
Gatherer
Mother Bear
Sister
Daughter
Friend
Lover
Worker Bee
Busy Bee
Lover of my feminine

I have fought to be seen. To be heard. Without being on the arm of a butch or a trans guy. Suddenly I am again unseen. For who *I* am.

I will not stop fighting to be seen. I will not change the essence of *Me* because of who the Universe sent me to love.

I will keep speaking out. Figuring out. Opening my mind and heart but not changing the core.

I do not exist as a 50%. I am not a half of something.

I am 100%. Me.

1 + ! = 2 and so forth and so on into infinity.




Bravo to this post, but I don't understand how femmes are relagated or unseen in any manner. At this sir's house they are the most beautiful, prominent, powerful creatures on earth. Maybe someday, one might love me. I wonder what that would feel like. Empowerment? It certainly doesn't come from my masculinity.

[Jet]

Hi, Jet --

Read us and listen to us all the way through, and you will have a much better understanding, I promise. So many voices in this thread already and I'm even behind. Remember, you are welcome to participate and comment here, but a blanket "I don't understand" followed by how things are in your house is not indicative that you're fully listening yet. I will leave it to SuperFemme to reply to you or not. Perhaps the thread OP, evolveme may do so as well.

--June

Sorry if I mis-spoke or didn't perceive right. I caught "relegated" and "unseen" in perusing this fast. I'll sit back now. Thanks, June

[SuperFemme]

Bravo to this post, but I don't understand how femmes are relagated or unseen in any manner. At this sir's house they are the most beautiful, prominent, powerful creatures on earth. Maybe someday, one might love me. I wonder what that would feel like. Empowerment? It certainly doesn't come from my masculinity.

Femme's experience invisibility every time they step out into the world alone
Without being on the arm of somebody, we are not counted, not noticed.
When we ARE noticed there are several different things that can happen.

We get told we should just be with men or that we are pretending to be with men.

We get dismissed because we *pass*.

It's like coming out over and over and over again. It can be different every time. Say we date a trans person? We get told we are straight. As if OUR identity (once again) is entrenched in who we love. Date another Femme and we are told we are not "Real Femmes".

So yes, we are relegated to the back of the line. To the closet. To the hetero world

[Jet]

Femme's experience invisibility every time they step out into the world alone
Without being on the arm of somebody, we are not counted, not noticed.
When we ARE noticed there are several different things that can happen.

We get told we should just be with men or that we are pretending to be with men.

We get dismissed because we *pass*.

It's like coming out over and over and over again. It can be different every time. Say we date a trans person? We get told we are straight. As if OUR identity (once again) is entrenched in who we love. Date another Femme and we are told we are not "Real Femmes".

So yes, we are relegated to the back of the line. To the closet. To the hetero world

I'm sorry, I had no idea that femmes were treated this way. It's very alien to me considering how I regard femmes. Thanks for responding.

[Kosmo]

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

I'm not sure what you mean by pointing out that gay male groups do this as well?

I think that just as women encompass masculine traits, men emcompass feminine traits. That was my read on it.

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.

[apretty]

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.


i fought 'believing' you or acknowledging this truth until i got to the part about seeing it in little girls... while i am childless, i am hugely involved in my nieces' life and this struggle-for-power, sadly rings true.

and while i do (reluctantly) acknowledge this behavior, i cannot help but wonder where it stems from (because i want to take the root cause of this 'round back!) and while i do think that we've ALL (to some degree) experienced this 'good girl' conditioning, i can't help thinking about this *struggle* as a form of competition, not unlike a 'beauty pageant', where there can be just one (crowned) winner. girls are conditioned to 'be good', i mean that's an obvious part of it--but i think sadly, more so they're conditioned to 'win' in ways that defeat other girls/women. for some reason it would seem that there can be just *one* female 'top' position (which they can never really attain, just struggle for!) while men are conditioned to work/play/win *together*. (not to mention that this is celebrated as a 'masculine' trait)

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for...

[julieisafemme]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?


I am using your post super duper Femme to write my own letter to the baby femme that is me. We hear about baby butches a lot. I am a baby femme at the ripe old age of 43! Anyway this is me writing to the new fresh femme me. Yes this is all about me. Hee hee.

Dear Baby Femme-

Why are you scared of femmes? Why do you feel like you are back in the sixth grade? Why are you intimidated by someone who identifies as a high femme? I think it is because you feel less than. I think it is coming from inside and not how anyone else identifies. Can you see that? Can you see that creating hierarchies is bad for you?

I know you feel like a big loser sometimes because you are new. I know you feel defined by others because your first and only partner is a transmasculine butch. It's ok for you to identify and call yourself whatever you like.

It's scary to be in a group of women. That has sometimes not gone so well for you in the past. I know it is easier to focus on the masculine beings in your midst.

I know you feel out of place in a group of femmes without the straight married mom mask you used to wear. It is just another aspect of coming out. Maybe life can be more now than just talking about kids, vacations, home renovations and other things that never interested you in the first place. I know you have seen how exciting it is to be around people who talk about ideas instead of things.

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Love You very very much my sweet baby femme.

Julie

[SuperFemme]

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for...

When I asked the question do Femme's judge each other harshly, it was a myopic question related to the topic here, and the microcosm that is the B/F community.

In no way did I mean to imply that *only* Femmes judge. Or silence. Or anything.

I also wonder about the validity of being silenced by anything other than ones self. There must be some pretty heavy self imposed borders that allow a person to think this. To me, nobody has the power to take away our voices. We mute them as a willing participant.

I have to do a big ole think on feminine and/or Femme equaling = Evil. I have to think if those are the messages I have received.

If I am dating somebody and another Femme persues and ultimately ends up with said person? Is the Femme really the bad person? Or is it the person I was dating who has free will?

[evolveme]

I'd like to know exactly what you mean by "male centric"



TD, I'd like to know to whom you're directing this question and the tone with which you ask it.

[evolveme]

SNIP...




there's a book called brazen femme: queering femininity by elizabeth ruth that came to mind when i was rereading the thread this morning. when speaking of a woman the author is calling the quantum femme. it's a long quote but it's a good one:


She's attracted to power because it's like looking in the mirror...Don't touch too softly or she won't notice, and don't wait for an invitation...You can't begin to imagine what sadomasochistic lifetimes she's consente to. Or, those she didn't. You can't know her by defining her parameters, testing her tolerance or crossing her boundaries. Quantum femme has a voracious appetite for the truth and the truth hurts most of all.





I own Brazen Femme too.

This is my absolute, all-time favorite essay on femme. There was a time when I'd placed "Quantum Femme" as my identity in that space over there
<---
on another b/f website.

My fucking god.

Thank you for reminding me.

[christie]

i think also, that little girls are taught to not trust *female*, bombarded with messages of 'less-than' and weakness and quite possibly, if grown women are searching to pin-point how and why they've been 'silenced' we find ourselves looking for ways in which 'femmes' have 'silenced' us because we *still* believe that female, specifically femme = EVIL (due to our heavy and as yet, very UNpacked knapsack), not to mention, i strongly believe that we all find what we're looking for... [/FONT]

Thank you for using these exact words. Until I came across this thread, I had been composing a thread titled "Living Less Than" to broach this very real issue.

One of the biggest struggles I have had in adapting to living with/caring for my precious motherinlaw is her very entrenched view of men/males and women/females.

I love my motherinlaw. I treat her as I would want one of my sisterinlaw's to treat my mother. And yet, she is the bane of my existence at times.

She is ENAMORED with men. Period. Doesn't matter the character of the man - if he was born with a penis, its her job/duty/obligation as a less than woman to cater to his every need. Nothing pisses me off more than watching her dote over the uneducated redneck who we have hired to perform some type of manual labor around the house. She sat, for over two hours, while the plumber worked on our well pump. Not did she sit there and distract a man with prattle while he was being paid by the hour, she also made sure he had ice water. The selfadmitted illiterate handyguy down the street for whom she cooks a full blown, southern Sunday dinner. I won't even get started on her view of her son, the unmedicated bipolar, raging alcoholic, unemployed idiot. Nothing is EVER a man's fault - its always "one of them whores".

In all my nearly 40 years have I ever, ever seen this level of kowtowing to males. Never have I felt the need to cook a meal for someone I was paying by the hour. Doubt I ever will.

Imagine how difficult it is to watch this play out, day after day. Yes, I was raised by a mother with a similar background and is in the same generation. However, I was taught that I could achieve anything I desired. I could be, do, have just the same as my brothers. I would like to think that it was my father's way of forming me into what I now call being a "grown ass woman."

This might have been a slight derail and for that, I apologize. I do think that as we talk about femme issues that this is relevant and how we overcome it, bypass it or defeat it is important.

I am tired of being told or it being inferred that I am less than because of my gender. It is very contradictory in what I see in the mirror, what I present to the world and how I move through the world.

My femme is not always wrapped in a nice pretty package with that disarming southern drawl. Sometimes she is. Sometimes she is that abrasive, bitchy tall redhead in lovely, lovely stilettoes that can be hurled at one's head in a nanosecond.

Either way, one thing is consistent... she is me... my truth... my strength... every day.

Christie

[evolveme]

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.

This is for both Blush and Kosmo, and really anyone else that thought I might be asserting something negative(?) about a particular set of gay males.

Relational Aggression is a theory of social psychology. I believe that whenever it is not acceptable or ALLOWABLE for the human animal to attend to their aggressions openly as masculine people more often do (via threats, intimidation, posturing or acts of socially condoned violence) that she or he will attend to them in a relational way. So not only do we see these behaviors in the culture of certain gay males, but also in the business/organizational culture.

I simply didn't want to go into all of that as it isn't relative to the feminine people on the whole and how women and girls are primarily socialized.

[Hudson]

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.


Male supporter here, invited, swear!

I want to touch on what e is talking about here. I think it's important to recognize that regardless of the culture or subculture, femininity never fails to be the scapegoat. If you look at the gay male community (with which I'm more familiar than even this one), masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("girl is such a nelly queen"). If you look at the lesbian/butch-femme community, masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("she looks straight, she's not a real femme" or "she always takes up for trans men, she's "rolling over for the men.")

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male. We need to recognize that assuming femininity is weak, passive, and only exists to appease, stroke, reassure men/masculine is one way this community is promoting the male-centric atmosphere that inspired this thread. We have to strip femininity from its negative connotations to free femme. I wonder if this has to happen before we can dislocate masculinity and change notions of it.

[evolveme]

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male.

Yes, and yes again.

Somebody remember to bring the underlined up every few pages whenever we begin to spiral downward.

I also wanted to say way back there, but have gotten distracted, that I personally and absofuckinglutely acknowledge and allow that femme is not just female, not just girl/woman.

I know some pretty kick-ass boy femmes and others and, for me, they only expand the possibilities of what-all this experience will allow.

[T D]

That's a huge question, TD, and may take a long time to answer, if we can ever completely define it at all. For a start--a very oversimplified start--the general idea is that we have all been socialized to equate "male" with "best, most worthy" and "female" with "least, unworthy" and so we bring that into our interactions in everyday life and online both, equating Butch with male and therefore devaluing Femme. The trick is to understand when we are doing that, and why... sometimes when one or the other of us points it out, it's very hard on people who are not used to being analytical or who haven't taken women's studies classes, because they don't have the frame of reference they need to see it properly--they can often get offended and hurt by other people's attempts to explain. It can be hard to create a community culture that is understandable to everyone given our different backgrounds and educations.


Thanks bit, your response is greatly appreciated, and certainly makes sense. :)

[Jess]

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

[Hudson]

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

[evolveme]

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

[Lynn]

I truly love and respect the duality of a butch-femme relationship. It's the type of relationship I choose, and I find it exhilarating and intoxicating. I know that my partner reveres me and derives much of her identity from the nature of our relationship. But, I still struggle with the idea that I am defined in relation to her. "Her butch to my femme." Without the two, one is incomplete. That is why I end up concluding that my femmeness is a trait, not an identity, even with the butches in my life nodding affirmatively to the idea that I am "a" femme. I can't be "a" femme until my femme isn't dependent on anyone's butch, neither their approval nor their partnership.

[Jess]

I'm curious then, SyrJess, why you would refer to her as "the 'femme' to your 'butch"?

Basically, because this is a butch-femme website. I was referring to my experience within this dynamic.

[Arwen]

I agree strongly. All of this, "I am not good enough" crap is part of the human condition that we play out in all environments in our lives at times. We have to work at acknowledging ourselves as whole and good all of our lives.


BonneMaman, I actually think humans as a whole *tend* to think they are not good enough. I'd go into a long diatribe about competition in all things (and I do like competition) that make children feel like failures if they don't bring home straight A's.

I remember getting HYSTERICAL (no, I am not inflating that) over a C on my report card. I was sure I would never go to college and never amount to anything.

I was 10.

I think I've dragged that grade baggage into my world now. Am I just a "C" femme if I speak my mind? Do I get a "B" if I wear a dress instead of slacks? Is it "A" behaviour to bake a pie?


I think it is important to note, that we did not create these conditions, we were born into them. So, do we owe allegiance to these false pretenses? What purpose does keeping women in competition serve on a sociological level? Control of women??????


I think that worse than being born into them, many of use (myself included) perpetuate them. I nearly smacked myself for correcting my 8 year old niece with "nice girls don't do that." WTH? Right out of my mouth. In front of my sister and cousins who all nodded in agreement.

And the feminist dyke trapped inside was raging about what I'd just done. She did not get a chance to correct that. I hope I will live to be a better example for my darling niece.


I don't feel that the syndrome of gossip, shunning, or the naming of the slut is entirely based in misogyny. I think it is first and foremost Fear based. So many of us have found a place where we belong after a lifetime of NOT belonging.


As someone who was one of the ones who did shun you and ostracize you, A, I can only say thank you for forgiving me. I bought into negative gossip (and participated in it.) It is one of the reasons I have been working on myself to NOT gossip/backstab/talk ugly about others. I fail. Oh Gods how I fail. I fail at this so much but I will try to correct myself immediately.

I am not proud of how I treated you, but I am glad we made up.

Now about you dating a femme. :D

I just think if ya don't wanna be friends with someone, ya don't, like, point it all out and such. "if you can't say something good about your neighbor, don't say nothin at all" :musicnote:


That's the Thumper quote for me. "If you can't say nothing nice, don't say nothing at all." Need to tattoo it to my TONGUE. laughing

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Do you think we (girls) were taught to internalize our rage as opposed to hit or fight physically like boys so that we were more controllable? I mean not necessarily intentionally in this day and age, but back when this "feminine corralling" started? I am not sure I'm making sense.

I do think women punish one another by shunning them. I don't know what men do. But the ostracization is stunningly effective on many of us because it feeds directly into that fear of not being good enough. Not an "A" femme.

People have beliefs that are vitally important to them--usually they involve "Truth" in some manifestation--and they seem to feel driven to keep others from expressing anything different.


This spoke so directly to my heart, Cath. I had to requote it. Thank you.


Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Oh how I loved this letter. I can't begin to count the ways. Julie, hang in there. Check around to see if there is a femme tea or anything in your area. One of my most vivid "wakeup" moments was in a Hamburger Mary's in Orange County when a certain superfemme smacked me upside the head and told me to stop wearing baggy clothes. And then proceeded to buy me a t-shirt 2 sizes smaller than I normally wore. OY! She's a mean one, that bobble-headed girl. :)

[Jess]

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

I don't allow her anything. She is, therefore, she deserves. She was a "strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven" woman BEFORE we met. This is whom I was attracted to then and it hasn't changed.

I knew my words would fail me and in an attempt to simply say thank you, THIS is how we can easily become silenced. ( Some folks asked for examples. Here is one). Sometimes, as it has been pointed out, we use different vernaculars or even "less words" to say something poignant. I said thank you, I will leave it at that.

[Linus]

e, as I read your response to Ben-Hur I was thinking of my wife, K, and how she has evolved in her definition of femme. I have found that it evolves over time as she does and she redefines it again and again in her own terms. She has many roles (i.e., student, wife, partner, friend, lover, social worker-to-be, daughter, sister) and desires (mostly related to wanting to be a mom and license social worker as well as to have me permanently around her) but in her core, from my POV, there remains that femme that comes through -- both in the superficial visible and the deep inner being.

I wanted to find a way to define this and so I did my usual Google search. This time I entered in "define femme" and hit upon the nefarious Wikipedia's (yes, yes, I'm the biggest advocate of staying away from there but I got distracted and.. oh! Shiny!) definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femme and was surprised. Lots of mention of what a butch is but very little mention of what a femme is (in fact, unless my old eyes are failing me I can't find a true definition in there other than the fact that the term is a derivative of the french term for woman). HUH? A woman's woman? Maybe that's it.

She is what a woman strives to be: strong in her own right and knows when to let her guard down. I'd almost say that my aunts and grandmother fit into this except they miss that one last key point: they are straight. Part of what makes a femme a "woman's woman" is that she sees love in others that society turns their back on. She is, to me, stronger than narrowness of society.

My brain has more to add, if it's ok, but I cannot find the words. It'll come, I'm sure. (not like I'm known for brevity :cheesy: )

[evolveme]

I am using your post super duper Femme to write my own letter to the baby femme that is me. We hear about baby butches a lot. I am a baby femme at the ripe old age of 43! Anyway this is me writing to the new fresh femme me. Yes this is all about me. Hee hee.

Dear Baby Femme-

Why are you scared of femmes? Why do you feel like you are back in the sixth grade? Why are you intimidated by someone who identifies as a high femme? I think it is because you feel less than. I think it is coming from inside and not how anyone else identifies. Can you see that? Can you see that creating hierarchies is bad for you?

I know you feel like a big loser sometimes because you are new. I know you feel defined by others because your first and only partner is a transmasculine butch. It's ok for you to identify and call yourself whatever you like.

It's scary to be in a group of women. That has sometimes not gone so well for you in the past. I know it is easier to focus on the masculine beings in your midst.

I know you feel out of place in a group of femmes without the straight married mom mask you used to wear. It is just another aspect of coming out. Maybe life can be more now than just talking about kids, vacations, home renovations and other things that never interested you in the first place. I know you have seen how exciting it is to be around people who talk about ideas instead of things.

Don't judge yourself so much. Take a chance. Put yourself out there. You can't hide behind your wall forever. Or I guess you can but look at all the wonderful things that have happened since you have taken it down, just a little bit at a time!

Love You very very much my sweet baby femme.

Julie

Dear Julie Baby Femme,

I don't know how I missed this.

Thank you for reminding me what that time felt like. The freedom and the vulnerability and the fear and the fucking wonder.

I remember exactly how cool it was to finally find women that wanted to talk about ideas instead of bake sales too.

You even made me cry a little bit. I don't want to have to tell you how incredibly hard this has become for me.

I'm glad I get to witness you.

With a whole lot of love in your direction,

e

[blush]

This is for both Blush and Kosmo, and really anyone else that thought I might be asserting something negative(?) about a particular set of gay males.

Relational Aggression is a theory of social psychology. I believe that whenever it is not acceptable or ALLOWABLE for the human animal to attend to their aggressions openly as masculine people more often do (via threats, intimidation, posturing or acts of socially condoned violence) that she or he will attend to them in a relational way. So not only do we see these behaviors in the culture of certain gay males, but also in the business/organizational culture.

I simply didn't want to go into all of that as it isn't relative to the feminine people on the whole and how women and girls are primarily socialized.

I didn't think anything negative, it just jumped out at me.

I'm familiar with that theory, although I probably need to brush up on it.

I would call it into question when applied to the queer community.

Come to Austin for coffee and we'll debate, yes?

[blush]

Feeling a need to post something.. anything just to say thank you to all of you for just being. The willingness and openness with which this thread has progressed is absolutely beautiful, powerful and passionate.

I love my grown ass woman, the "femme" to my "butch" not for her support of "me" but for the exacting entity that she is. She is strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven. My girl and my grown ass woman all day, everyday.

I love you all for being exactly whom you all are and for what my perfection is as well. For me, THIS is what the butch-femme dynamic is about. It isn't so much about completing the duality as it is the reverence for that which is familiar strange, reflected and reciprocated between the two.

This is one of those times when my words will surely fail me, so I will remain brief.

In awe,
Jess
Jess,
This is a beautiful testament to femmes, and to YOUR femme.

[evolveme]

[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Purple]Do you think we (girls) were taught to internalize our rage as opposed to hit or fight physically like boys so that we were more controllable? I mean not necessarily intentionally in this day and age, but back when this "feminine corralling" started? I am not sure I'm making sense.

I do think women punish one another by shunning them. I don't know what men do. But the ostracization is stunningly effective on many of us because it feeds directly into that fear of not being good enough. Not an "A" femme.


What I believe is that the result of teaching women/girls to "be good" and "not fight" was that they were made easier to control. What I believe is that the primary incentive was an evolutionary one: if females acted out aggressions physically they would be too likely to miscarry. This would directly impact the survival of our species in a negative way at a time when it mattered, i.e. a long ass time ago when we hadn't yet overfuckingpopulated the planet.

In this way, I believe that tools of the patriarchy, and the patriarchy itself, arose out of an evolutionary incentive. Their time has come and gone.

This belief is not a popular one. I'm sure you can see why.

And I could talk a long time about it, but I won't. <cheesy grin>

[evolveme]

I don't allow her anything. She is, therefore, she deserves. She was a "strong, tender, gracious, protective, elegant, driven" woman BEFORE we met. This is whom I was attracted to then and it hasn't changed.

I knew my words would fail me and in an attempt to simply say thank you, THIS is how we can easily become silenced. ( Some folks asked for examples. Here is one). Sometimes, as it has been pointed out, we use different vernaculars or even "less words" to say something poignant. I said thank you, I will leave it at that.

I quibbled with myself over the word "allow," and should have changed it. I didn't intend it in the way that you interpreted, I think. I wanted to speak to "butch to my femme" and I wasn't alone in that. I also spoke to you privately and publicly about my fond feelings for your devotional post.

I'm not sure if you're saying you feel silenced by me. If you are, I'm going to have to ask that you reconsider my intentions, which were only to highlight the ways we might be unconsciously subsumed and dismissed. Beyond that, it is contrary to the purpose of this thread for me to host your feelings.

[evolveme]

I didn't think anything negative, it just jumped out at me.

I'm familiar with that theory, although I probably need to brush up on it.

I would call it into question when applied to the queer community.

Come to Austin for coffee and we'll debate, yes?

Only if you bake me a pie.

[Diva]

Only if you bake me a pie.

Vote for apple.
Jus' sayin'.....

[blush]

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

Gawd, I want to needlepoint your last sentence on a pillow.

And I've been thinking a lot about what you've said about roles.

And that got me thinking about my child. If I were to ask her to describe me without referencing the fact that I am her mother, would she be able to do it to my satisfaction?

No.

If I were to ask a friend to describe me without referencing my role or my contribution to their life as a friend, would they be able to do it to my satisfaction?

Probably not.

Your post resonated with me, e, but I don't know why. SyrJess's post resonated with me, but I don't know why.

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

[evolveme]

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

It may be difficult, but I don't think it is impossible.

I want them to understand why it is so important.

[Arwen]

My question is this:
Is it asking too much for our masculine counterparts to separate themselves from their devotion to us as life partners(or what-have-yous) and "objectively" describe us without mentioning our role in the relationship?

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.

[blush]

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.


Totally get what you're saying...

I think I'm being a tad more specific and asking is it possible for our masculine counterparts to describe us adequately without referencing the role we hold in their life.

[Diva]

I would HOPE that ANYone in a relationship, would be able to describe their partner's heart FIRST.

This ~ granted ~ is only MY opinion. But if someone tells me they have fallen in love with me because I'm a femme....or a woman.....or Irish.....or a Mom.....or whatEVER OTHER than who I am in my heart, I would question it. And of course, it would be up to ME to speak my heart....and up to THEM to listen and hear my heartbeat.

Geez, I don't feel I'm choosing the right words here, so please forgive me for my inadequacies.....

That is not to say that I don't have the heart of a woman....or a femme...etc.....

My heart is full of who I am.

[hippieflowergirl]

Do you think those who are partnered can do that for their partners as well?

Sometimes the English language is far too small for the concepts and ideas we need to express.

I have to anchor things with symbols that mean something to me.

Good mom
Wicked Stepmother
Prince Charming
Black Knight
Hermit
Cheerleader

Then I can expand around those word anchors. I am not sure any one can describe themselves in a way that they would find satisfying.

When I try...I start with labels. Femme, queer, poet, author, aunt....

So without those labels, who am I? Who are you?

Does this make sense? I fear I am missing my own point again.


spoken language is so damn limiting, isn't it? i find myself flailing for ways to adequately express the damn chaos in my damn mind. dammit.

i just finished rereading one of my fave science fiction books (octavia butler) about a species (wholly peaceful, thank the stars) that could link in to the nervous system of others and understand every damn thing without having to say a damn word. i don't know if i'd love it or hate it but i damn sure wouldn't mind trying it for a day.

(any guesses about my word of the day?)

[hippieflowergirl]

SNIP...

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.


day-um!

:seeingstars::clap::thud::cheer:

[Arwen]

Totally get what you're saying...

I think I'm being a tad more specific and asking is it possible for our masculine counterparts to describe us adequately without referencing the role we hold in their life.

I have to say that since I am fortunate enough to know that fella you are partnered with...I think he could do it.

No. I know he can do it. He's a passionate thinker. It may take him a bit to get his thoughts in a order that is pleasing to him, but once he does...it will blow you out of the water.

Grin, but you already know that about him.


spoken language is so damn limiting, isn't it? i find myself flailing for ways to adequately express the damn chaos in my damn mind. dammit.

i just finished rereading one of my fave science fiction books (octavia butler) about a species (wholly peaceful, thank the stars) that could link in to the nervous system of others and understand every damn thing without having to say a damn word. i don't know if i'd love it or hate it but i damn sure wouldn't mind trying it for a day.

(any guesses about my word of the day?)

Chaos? hee. I have heard of octavia Butler but have not read her yet. I think I could describe another person without mentioning their roles in my life but I'm not sure.

I thought about doing this for my mama--and failed. :) Everything for me came back to the role she was in my life.

A harder task, I think, than I initially thought. I'm going to keep working on it for my own peace of mind.

Is it easier to describe someone not in our lives so intimately? Of course it is. I hope some of us are up to this task. An intriguing exercise to see how ... and who we are.

[Lynn]

I thought about doing this for my mama--and failed. :) Everything for me came back to the role she was in my life.

A harder task, I think, than I initially thought. I'm going to keep working on it for my own peace of mind.

Is it easier to describe someone not in our lives so intimately? Of course it is. I hope some of us are up to this task. An intriguing exercise to see how ... and who we are.



I remember one of the most depressing moments of my life--when, exhausted from waking up every two hours for months to nurse my daughter, I had the "realization" that my only purpose on earth was to feed this child. I had the thought that if I were to die, I would only be missed for that. It was a very lonely, degrading thought to me. I could not see a reason for being, as an individual, at that moment.

As difficult as it is to describe someone--who they are and not their "roles," I think it's just as hard to describe ourselves. At least, it is for me. I take on the mantle of these roles and identies, but soon forget the *I* that chose them. I become them. Who could blame anyone else, then, for trying to see me *as* them?

[Arwen]

As difficult as it is to describe someone--who they are and not their "roles," I think it's just as hard to describe ourselves. At least, it is for me. I take on the mantle of these roles and identies, but soon forget the *I* that chose them. I become them. Who could blame anyone else, then, for trying to see me *as* them?


I think maybe you've just hit on a very important point. Because we ourselves accept those roles, we don't push our own envelopes. We don't become all we can be (sorry for the motto, lol).

Maybe by remaining "just" partners or wives or girlfriends or however we style that relationship...maybe we keep ourselves down.

I am not saying we all do this, but I think there is a percentage that do. And it's probably easier, right? Tell them you are a _____ and let them relate to you on that level and that level only. Keeps intimacy controllable. Manageable. Not so scary.

Do we as femmes perpetuate the role of femme? The giggles and flirting and all the rest?

[Lynn]

Arwen,

I was thinking about your attempt to see your mother as someone beyond her roles and I wondered if she was able to see herself as someone beyond her roles.

I think we typically present ourselves in a certain way (wife, mother, etc) because that's how we think of ourselves. We, in this thread and on this site, might be unique to the degree that we are willing to self-examine. I work with women who are sick or dying, and I am stunned by the willingness of so many to reach this place with no sense of self.

[KayCee]

I think it's not the way we are seen by others, rather than the way we see ourselves and how we let them treat us, that matters.

[Arwen]

Arwen,

I was thinking about your attempt to see your mother as someone beyond her roles and I wondered if she was able to see herself as someone beyond her roles.

I actually KNOW my mother saw herself as beyond her roles. She was an amazing woman. However, this ability also render her the gift of being selfish. That did not translate well for my sister or myself at times because we thought she belonged to us. She had to continually disabuse us of that notion. ;)

[evolveme]

I think it's not the way we are seen by others, rather than the way we see ourselves and how we let them treat us, that matters.

This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

[Arwen]

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.


Oh can you PLEASE needlepoint that on a pillow for me? That last line.

Selfishness and meanness are such GOOD qualities to have in moderation. By selfishness I mean be selfish about your time and space and needs. Put yourself first so others who watch you can learn to put themselves first.

BULB! That's what Mama was doing. She was showing me by doing. I didn't learn it so well but I can always revisit those lessons.

Meanness to some is honesty to others is anger to someone else. I'd rather have friends in my world who are upfront and honest and who will give me the respect of discussing things. I am MEAN about this concept of honesty. I have to be otherwise I turn into a woman I do not like.

And I must be selfish and like myself better than anyone else, yes?

This becomes more than a word -- femme. Femme is part of who I am, yes, but it is not nearly all of who I am.

In a strange seque, I am reminded of a pillow my aunt gave my mother. It said:

It it's not one thing--it's your mother.

I think now I understand just why Mama found that so hysterical.

And why she always hid that pillow when my grandmother came to visit.:rolleyes:

[Apocalipstic]

Thank you powerful, strong, brave Sisters and Allies.

Thank you for speaking your truth.

My truth?

Has involved pretty pink font and pink avatars which make me smile and somehow rise above the sometimes shattering pain of daily existence. (I stopped with the pink font so people would read my posts, yes it made me sad, and yes I see that stopping to please others makes me a co-dependent pleaser :))

Sees that no one is better than anyone else in terms of class or gender or race or education.

Knows that insisting on living in a kind and harmonious way is not weak.

Speaks her mind firmly and directly when something is important.

Refuses to spend time on revenge and anger.

Tries to consistently speak to issues she finds important even if people would rather her be silent.

Loves who she loves.

I really resonate with what so many of you have to say. e, Arwen, Adele, Julieis, Diva, June. In so many ways you are my heroes.

I admit that meanness frightens and freezes me. I never thought of it as bowing out to masculinity.

more later. :)

[wolfwalker]

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Autonomy???????? Do any of you know Jess and Christie?

I do and Jess loves her from here to the next universe and she, jess. Jess doesn't to give her autonomy. She is a grown ass woman and fully ready willing and able to provide her own autonomy. If anyone even thought about trying to take that away. I will gladly call 911 for ya. or send flowers LOLOLOL

:rose:

wolfwalker

[Apocalipstic]

I think maybe you've just hit on a very important point. Because we ourselves accept those roles, we don't push our own envelopes. We don't become all we can be (sorry for the motto, lol).

Maybe by remaining "just" partners or wives or girlfriends or however we style that relationship...maybe we keep ourselves down.

I am not saying we all do this, but I think there is a percentage that do. And it's probably easier, right? Tell them you are a _____ and let them relate to you on that level and that level only. Keeps intimacy controllable. Manageable. Not so scary.

Do we as femmes perpetuate the role of femme? The giggles and flirting and all the rest?


and is the role of Femme with giggles and flirting a bad thing, or is it an escape from everyday hard work?

[apretty]

i'm not following the conversation. i mean, post 147 made sense and then i'm lost again for at least a page. help?

[Apocalipstic]

I was responding to the thread as a whole, are there specific things you don't understand or can't follow in my posts? Am I not making sense?

I thought we were sharing our truths as Femme and what it means to us?

Will you explain how I should have responded? I sometimes take things and am too literal. My deepest appologies for messing up the thread.

[apretty]

this makes sense to me:


Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

lord i hope so! (and i really think so) ...but we can't do this (define us/others) while identifying ourselves dependent on anything/one else.

[apretty]

I was responding to the thread as a whole, are there specific things you don't understand or can't follow in my posts? Am I not making sense?

I thought we were sharing our truths as Femme and what it means to us?

Will you explain how I should have responded? I sometimes take things and am too literal. My deepest appologies for messing up the thread.

sorry, i didn't mean for you to take my 'confusion' personally. i was in no way addressing you, rather acknowledging my own sense of not being able to follow the last couple of pages--the conversation 'shift'. i did read your truth-post and could relate to your definition of 'you'.

[IrishGrrl]

As a femme, I feel powerful, strong. confident, inspiried.

But..

Are we hesitant to show our vunerable side for fear of being seen as just a weak female?

Most of the time, I dont want anyone to see my vunerablilities, my tears, my saddness...I dont want to be seen like less than the ass kicking femme I am..

anyone else?

[Isadora]

I am femme, flawed and fabulous. It has always been who I am from the inside out. It is a constant learning process to know who I am, I am never completely formed.

I am strong and independent. I am weak and inter-dependent. I am a very social being and everything seems to hurt deeply, especially as I age (we won't even start about being OLD and femme). When my self feels unsafe I am lucky to have people who will keep their promises and understand that being sensationally weak is not a bad thing. Asking for help from someone I respect, love and trust relieves me, it does not make me dependent.

I am loud and I am quiet. I have worked hard to know the difference between choosing to be silent and being silenced. It takes wisdom to do the first and alertness to recognize the second.

I am bossy, all the way to passive depending on the situation. Again knowing when to be which is always the hard part. I have learned a lot about myself and the choices I have made in my life. I like being in control until I don't like it. LOL

I am hurt and I am angry. I try to channel my own hurt and anger into positive action, but I am the first to admit, that it does not always work. We have been conditioned and socialized to be passive-aggressive as a way to handle our hurt and anger. (Great book on this called: Social Aggression among Girls by Marion K. Underwood, I read several years ago. She shares her extensive research that looks at how we are socialized to be socially aggressive and how suppressed anger/hurt effects our social interactions with other girls/women.) Sometimes my anger comes out as silence, a deep void of rage that swirls into a vortex of inner turmoil. Sometimes it is channeled into social action and sometimes I just scream.

I range from emotionally present to absent depending on my own feeling of safety. I find, again as I age, that my feelings are right on my skin and things that I would just let pass in the past, I won't. some things are not worth the effort and I let them go. Then there are some things I refuse to be silent about, I feel more deeply and sadness is released in tears and heart-ache. I am vulnerable now, only to the people I deeply trust, and those people get fewer and fewer.

I don't always need to be understood by anyone but me and I want to be accepted as who I am as a individual human being. I don't always want to be healed, I want to be heard. I don't always want to have to define myself, I just want to be seen. I don't always want to explain my choices, I just want them accepted as fully mine. I fight to keep my Shirley Valentine alive.

I am a a bell curve not a duality. My self is fluid. I hope it is always that way.

[SassyLeo]

I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

The bolded words: Perfect.

My mother and I have long had this kind of dialogue. I love seeing it in print, the words she and I have exchanged for years. Thank you for having the same words.

[MizzSabra]

<snippity-snip>
And, everyone's favorite: The Naming of The Slut.


Someone call for me?

I don't even know where to start.....Great thread e, I'm still reading.

[evolveme]

The bolded words: Perfect.

My mother and I have long had this kind of dialogue. I love seeing it in print, the words she and I have exchanged for years. Thank you for having the same words.


It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

[evolveme]

Someone call for me?

I don't even know where to start.....Great thread e, I'm still reading.

Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

:lips:,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

[SassyLeo]

It makes me so happy to hear you share this, Lovely Sassy. Knowing that an adult mother and daughter exist somewhere and speak of this kind of relating to one another fills me with something profound. I can only hope that my daughter and I will continue to have the kind of relationship that we do, and that it will evolve into a woman-to-woman relating someday.

My feeling that she does not belong to me - that I do not possess her - is almost a spiritual point of view. I recognize her wholeness. I honor it.

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff :)). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right :)

[evolveme]

Yes, absolutely. And that is what it has become, a woman-to-woman relating. And spiritual point of view is exactly how she describes it. We talk about how we kind of birthed each other...how I am not "hers", but that we get to be teachers for each other, guardians of learning.

My mother doesn't necessarily identify as Femme. She appears very feminine and people have described her as Femme, however she has mixed feelings about labels related to appearance and believes she loves who she loves, regardless of gender, sexual orientation, identity, etc. (She taught me some good stuff :)). She was with my father for more than 20 years and came out when I was a teen. Then dating several women who all identified very differently. She has told me over the years that she did not know how to articulate her feelings, desire, and how she viewed herself in relation to "queerness" (my word). However, there is within her a strong feeling of wanting to be seen in her entirety as who she is, not in relation to who she dates, fucks, be-friends; what she wears, how she does her hair, etc. She struggles using the words lesbian, dyke, even queer. She wants to be seen without all the other descriptors attached. She mostly calls herself a "spiritual human" (and woman, mother, etc). I asked her if she had thought about choosing the word Femme to describe/define herself (as a "queer" word - label/un-label) and use her own descriptors? As in, what we are all talking about here...what Femme is to us? Not that I was specifically telling her she needed to label herself or "Femme" herself, but look at it from the angle that we are all talking about... she smiled and nodded and said she had not thought of it that way...

I feel so blessed to be able to have these kinds of conversations with her...and I hope that you are also able to...or get to when the time is right :)

I have been amazed by the story of you and your dad, but this is the first time I've seen you write about your mother. I didn't know that she was not strictly heterosexual, or that you might share something so intimately in common with her. What an amazing story you have, and clearly, what an amazing mother... and mother/daughter bond.

:)

[evolveme]

I don't always need to be understood by anyone but me and I want to be accepted as who I am as a individual human being. I don't always want to be healed, I want to be heard. I don't always want to have to define myself, I just want to be seen. I don't always want to explain my choices, I just want them accepted as fully mine. I fight to keep my Shirley Valentine alive.

I am a a bell curve not a duality. My self is fluid. I hope it is always that way.


Isadora, your whole post was beautiful, but this part, I especially loved and related to. Thank you so much for posting it here. :stillheart:

[Lynn]

This is, I think, the baseline of what the last couple of pages have been about.

We want our wholeness to be honored.

That's what I'm trying to say, I think. To be honored isn't the same as "validated." I want to validate myself, without relying on the approval and acceptance of others. And, it isn't even that I want to be honored for WHO I am. I want to be honored THAT I am. Does that make any sense? I agree, absolutely, that we should all be accepted for how we identify and who we say we are. But, I'm trying to address something deeper than that.

[blush]

[QUOTE=Arwen;14200]I have to say that since I am fortunate enough to know that fella you are partnered with...I think he could do it.

No. I know he can do it. He's a passionate thinker. It may take him a bit to get his thoughts in a order that is pleasing to him, but once he does...it will blow you out of the water.

Grin, but you already know that about him.

Word. And one of the advantages of being friends before lovers is that you have known each other outside of that relationship role. But yeah, I totally agree. Obviously. :)

[always2late]

I think we do judge each other harshly. In fact, I put forth that, at times, we judge ourselves and our sisters more harshly than any "outside" source. How often are we prone to "label" someone else..and yet become indignant when we are labeled? A straight friend once told me "Women do not dress for men, they dress for other women." And that shocked me somewhat. But when I examined it, I found it to be quite true. Why are we so eager to pass judgement, good or bad, on each other?

[blush]

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

[Diva]

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.


Here.
<hands blush a fork>

[julieisafemme]

This is precisely the way that I see it.

We lose our autonomy only to the degree that we allow it.

And as Arwen goes on to say, particularly for mothers (and lovers), we may have to disabuse our children and partners of the notion that we ever belonged to them. I do not believe, and have never believed, that my child belongs to me. She came through me. I am her guardian as long as she is with me and until she can suffice herself.

This is what *I* do: I suffice myself.

Sometimes this is read as selfishness. And it may be. But I believe it is more true that I am simply a solitary creature. My roles are of a temporal nature relative to who and what I am. Don't misread, my love is fierce. But it does not define me. My mind defines me before my heart does. Unless we are speaking to my compassion. This also defines me. But never in the sense that I am giving myself away for it.

That is less compassion than martyrdom. And I am no martyr.

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

[Arwen]

Oh, Lady, I know how to get your gendertrashy ass right where I want it.

Don't you doubt me.

:lips:,

e

P.S. Apologies to The Arwen for any discomfort caused by overt girl-flirting. <wink>

EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW GROSS! Gag!

grin. Not really. I am uncomfortable when it is overt sexual flirting from another femme directed at me. It reminds me of how inadequate I am as a lesbian. (whole 'nother thread...don't go there)

However if you brain flirt with me, you're on...my list already.

And can I just say that the dialogue in this thread is some of the best I've read in a longlong time. I love femme brains.

This was really really funny to me because right before I read this post by you, I was thinking something very similar. It's been a long time since I've seen a thread go this many pages with nearly no uproar to speak of.

What is WRONG with you people?

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.

Here's a thought for you to try on. See what you think.

Maybe they are harsh because you are doing what they cannot. Maybe we are crueler and meaner and try to rein in harder those that do what we secretly wish we could?

[Arwen]

Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?

[Lynn]

Label me. Define me & you starve yourself of yourself. Nail me down in a box with cold words & the box will be your coffin. ---Rumi

Do you think Rumi was reading this thread before we wrote it?

Shit. Yes. The little hairs on my arms are standing on end.

[Bit]

Dear Goddess, I'm now nine pages behind and the convo has moved far, far past the place where I left off... I am afraid that if I start responding to things back on page three, page four, it will be a derailment of sorts. This is going to take some thinking....

[apretty]

from the first page of this thread i've kept thinking: "master's tools/master's house"

so, i went looking for more Audre Lorde, (sure she was trying to get in on the conversation/at least in my head)

"There's always someone asking you to underline one piece of yourself -- whether it's Black, woman, mother, dyke, teacher, etc. -- because that's the piece that they need to key in to. They want to dismiss everything else."

and

"I am who I am, doing what I came to do, acting upon you like a drug or chisel or remind you of your me-ness as I discover you in myself."

i feel like this, especially the last quote, is how we all fit together. (and it feels fucking fantastic)

[apretty]

In the last week, here and elsewhere, heated discussions have arisen as to the overwhelming male-centric nature of our on-line spaces, our communities. We have come into those discussions to address this concern, always as a voice of support. Support for those who feel challenged (trans and male-id’d people). Support for those who feel unseen (women-identified butches).


does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

[Apocalipstic]

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

[apretty]

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

i don't fancy myself co-dependent (tho i've read the books and can highly relate to lots of the markers of co-dependency. ha) but i do feel that, personally, my 'femme' is being wrongfully 'accused'--and i'm thinking on that, why i feel defensive/protective and why i can't necessarily hear the part about how 'femme' has played a role in creating a male-centric environment here/elsewhere. whatever that's about, i find myself resisting it/not wanting to take on that responsibility...

[Diva]

Oh my. This hits home. I am being told daily by my child's father and even members of my family how selfish I am for leaving my marriage and letting myself be me. I do not subscribe to the notion that being a good mother means that I give up me, my needs, my dreams.

I do believe I belong to my child and she belongs to me until she is old enough to take care of herself and love as a grown woman. I don't think that means that I have to lose my identity as a woman.

I have been shocked at the harshness of the criticism I have recieved from other mothers. There is a policing that goes on.


We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

[apretty]

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.





and you *should* write it. i believe all of our stories are valuable and a testament to where we've been and how far we need to go (as a society).

[Apocalipstic]

i don't fancy myself co-dependent (tho i've read the books and can highly relate to lots of the markers of co-dependency. ha) but i do feel that, personally, my 'femme' is being wrongfully 'accused'--and i'm thinking on that, why i feel defensive/protective and why i can't necessarily hear the part about how 'femme' has played a role in creating a male-centric environment here/elsewhere. whatever that's about, i find myself resisting it/not wanting to take on that responsibility...

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

[julieisafemme]

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child:blink:. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

We are bound together by this.

I left 20 years ago and heard it to the point where I really thought I would (or DID) lose my mind. The guilt trips from every member of my family and his, the accusations, he had me tested for AIDS (because I was told that the insurance we had required it. It was a lie.), the coersion between my ex-husband & my therapist to try and convince me that I was not a lesbian, the middle-of-the-night surprise visits to my home ~ camera-in-hand, the outings (without my knowledge) and the shunning were (and still are) unbelieveable to me. I was followed by PI's, I had restraining orders against me and then later, my partner.

If I wrote it all down it would be a great made~for~TV movie.....people would not believe it....it is so bizarre.

[always2late]

I am so sorry you know about this too. Honestly I was shocked at the reaction from people. Part of it is that I did not wait the proscibed amount of time before dating and that this was somehow not ok for my child:blink:. This was from my Dad who cheated on my Mom while married and then married his mistress! But see that is ok because he is a man. Me I needed to wear the widow weeds for 10 years and then go about the business of being me. I was faithful to my husband until the day I left my home. I had the great good luck, fortune and blessing to meet a wonderful person. What a shameless lesbian I am!! I wonder also what the response would have been if I had met Straighty McStraighterson biomale man dude.

Does it still hurt Diva? Somedays I feel so worn down I just want to dissappear.

I cannot speak for Diva..only for myself. Yes, it hurts. My parents do not openly condemn me, but they have, in hundreds of small, cutting ways, become allies with my ex-husband, the father of my son, who to this day still threatens and looks for ways to take my son from me because of who I am. As for the outside world...even those people who claim to be tolerant still ask about my "lifestyle" and what effect "all this" has on my son (like it is some contagion that should be in quarantine).

[blush]

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

Kind of yes, when all the conversation seems to be about being supportive, making sure everyone feels OK about themselves.

We co-dependently try to please everyone and maybe lose ourselves in the midst?

Is that what you mean?

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?

I cannot speak for Diva..only for myself. Yes, it hurts. My parents do not openly condemn me, but they have, in hundreds of small, cutting ways, become allies with my ex-husband, the father of my son, who to this day still threatens and looks for ways to take my son from me because of who I am. As for the outside world...even those people who claim to be tolerant still ask about my "lifestyle" and what effect "all this" has on my son (like it is some contagion that should be in quarantine).

Anyone want to add comments? I tried to hit the last questions we've had in the thread. If I missed a question, it's not intentional.

[Arwen]

This resonates with me. I am pretty unclear on how we personally have been responsible for this. In my mind I see myself going in the other direction (against the grain) quite a bit. Pushing the use of Female pronouns (for those who prefer them) No "you are boy so you do this automatically and I am the girl so these are my duties" kind of thing. Saying "no Cynthia likes to be called Cynthia, not Sydney or Chris to make you feel more comfortable".

Do you think it was meant in general? or that each and every one of us has contributed? Or is it kind of like racism and we are all implicated? Its the system and there is no escape?


Okay. I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I think "we" have been responsible for the inherent misogyny when "we" do, as a whole, enhance the masculine over the feminine. I put "we" in quotes because I want to make the distinction that I see this as a groupthink thing.

I think that there are those of us who do not do this within our own partnerships or even our own communities, but I wonder if "we" are able to speak our truth when confronted with this in other people's relationships.

(PLEASE NOTE that this example has utterly no bearing in fact and I am using two people whom I know and suspect will not be offended by their starring roles in this example. Again, I have NEVER witnessed this behaviour from them...are we clear?)

For instance, let's say I was at a party where Goofy and Blush were. I saw Goofy interrupt Blush while she was involved with some other femmes in some intense discussion. Goofy called out to Blush (let's assume he didn't even get up) and said, "Get me a beer."

Now let's further assume that Blush excused herself from the conversation to get Goofy his beer without so much as an exasperated look or a menacing glare.

IF I saw that and did not say anything to either one of them would I:

A: Be respecting the dynamic of their relationship?
B: Be complacently approving of the inherent misogyny?

And, while I'm on this subject, why would that scenario be wrong but a reverse of it (Blush interrupting Goofy) possibly not have the same impact?

To me, that would be participating in creating a male-centric environment.

[Kosmo]

I understand your point here, but the judgment I have endured from other Femmes has centered around "male-centric" rather than "masculine-centric."

It is true that I will defer to any Butch, of any ID. I always check myself and my thoughts before I post to be certain I am not offending anyone, hitting any trigger phrases, pushing any hot buttons, forgetting to hedge myself about with obligatory disclaimers... lord love a duck, it gets tiring and I mostly just don't post, yanno? I mostly just don't post.

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

[evolveme]

does anyone else feel that her personal 'femme' is being abused (under-appreciated) when we're accused of being less-than supportive (or of blatant misogyny)?

This is a really good question, Pretty.

I'm struggling in that I can't say yes, I personally feel that my 'femme' is being abused, per say, when we're accused of blatant misogyny (or not supporting), but it does feel spurious to me. If we have our own opinions, and strong ones, as to why it isn't necessary to support, or even to engage in a way that may feel contrary to support, being accused of misogyny is too easy an ad hominem attack. And I do feel it is one.

Explain to me, and respectfully if you can, why you believe my opinions have shut you down (because it is never my intention to shut anyone down), and how they hold up a dynamic of 'male-over.' Because I assure you that I am too thoughtful, too self-and-other-considered to allow this dynamic to be my invisible truth.

What is outwardly and obviously true for me is that I stand for all of us. I fight for ALL of us, not just my own kind.

[evolveme]

from the first page of this thread i've kept thinking: "master's tools/master's house"

so, i went looking for more Audre Lorde, (sure she was trying to get in on the conversation/at least in my head)

"There's always someone asking you to underline one piece of yourself -- whether it's Black, woman, mother, dyke, teacher, etc. -- because that's the piece that they need to key in to. They want to dismiss everything else."

and

"I am who I am, doing what I came to do, acting upon you like a drug or chisel or remind you of your me-ness as I discover you in myself."

i feel like this, especially the last quote, is how we all fit together. (and it feels fucking fantastic)

This all deserves a repeat. :stillheart:

[blush]

Right now, I just want all the Butches and Transguys of our community to finally grow up and share the space and this includes me.

This sense of needing to jockey for position. The fear of one's identity going out of favor or being overshadowed by another, i.e., loss of power or position within the community. This need to compete, defend; as if 'my' tribe will be assimilated. It's maddening sometimes.

Thank you, to all, for the support you give, to all of us. *smiles and handshakes all around*

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*
I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

[Kosmo]

I'm not sure what you mean by "share the space?" With who? Femmes?

That'd be nice. I've noticed that all too frequently the top threads are all about masculine-based identities. As important as these conversations are, for all of us, they frequently overshadow ANY femme conversation. This has been my experience in real time as well.

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest, I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

[blush]

Hi, blush

Well, what was in my mind at the time of that comment was masculine-based identity space. But.... I like your understanding of it a lot better. To be honest. I've just started to view more femme space here. Mostly just reading and trying not to interrupt.

Yo:snowysmiley:
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.

[Diva]

Am I being too simplistic to think any of this can be solved with 2 words?

Play nice. :hanging:

[Jess]

See, I saw this as problematic too, Jess. Even though you go on to say, "not for her support of me, but for the exact entity that she is."

While I love the love and respect you are showing her here, I also want to see you simply allow her the autonomy and agency she deserves (not that I believe you are necessarily disrespecting her). I understand that "the dance" has us thinking often of the bright space between us, the sharp contrast. But what was it about her that you loved before she was yours?

Who is she fundamentally? How can you define her without mentioning a role she inhabits (lover, sister, mother, friend)?

Tell us about her independent of you or even what she means to you.

I want to know if we are ever seen clearly enough in the skin we're in, or if we're always bleeding into our roles.

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

[Apocalipstic]

Okay. I'm going to take a stab at this one.

I think "we" have been responsible for the inherent misogyny when "we" do, as a whole, enhance the masculine over the feminine. I put "we" in quotes because I want to make the distinction that I see this as a groupthink thing.

I think that there are those of us who do not do this within our own partnerships or even our own communities, but I wonder if "we" are able to speak our truth when confronted with this in other people's relationships.

(PLEASE NOTE that this example has utterly no bearing in fact and I am using two people whom I know and suspect will not be offended by their starring roles in this example. Again, I have NEVER witnessed this behavior from them...are we clear?)

For instance, let's say I was at a party where Goofy and Blush were. I saw Goofy interrupt Blush while she was involved with some other femmes in some intense discussion. Goofy called out to Blush (let's assume he didn't even get up) and said, "Get me a beer."

Now let's further assume that Blush excused herself from the conversation to get Goofy his beer without so much as an exasperated look or a menacing glare.

IF I saw that and did not say anything to either one of them would I:

A: Be respecting the dynamic of their relationship?
B: Be complacently approving of the inherent misogyny?

And, while I'm on this subject, why would that scenario be wrong but a reverse of it (Blush interrupting Goofy) possibly not have the same impact?

To me, that would be participating in creating a male-centric environment.


Ahhh, OK, that makes total sense. Thank you for explaining with an example. That always helps for me.

It has been difficult for me to speak out on anything really based on my own upbringing....ie. in the South we talk behind people's backs, not to their faces (as a general cultural thing, I know you are also Southern) and the fact that I can be pretty non-confrontational...related to a great number of things, I crave peaceful harmony.

However,
I understand that not saying anything provides tacit approval (implied approval), so I have in the past few years worked (and continue the battle) to speak my mind directly.

Sexism is like racism, every time we encounter this we need to say something.

On the other hand....
It's difficult with the BDSM dynamics in our community that get brought into non-BDSM settings to always know intent. It's a mine field really. It amazes me how often I find myself in just the situation you describe with a friend saying they are not "allowed" to do this or that. I know my eye bows hit the ceiling as I ask "what is this allowed word of which you speak?"

Thanks again, for putting it in terms I can get. :)

J

PS. Unless there was a sorry for interrupting and a PLEASE mentioned I think either scenario is rude.
PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

[Kosmo]

Yo:snowysmiley:
I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by YOU I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived.
Hi, blush *smiles*

I think I understand. If not, I expect you to let me know. You're asking the folks in this thread what can be done to change the perception, right? Please allow me to offer some thoughts.

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

When I interact with my sweetheart, she is very clear in her communication to me. Do I feel a privilege sometimes that shadows her needs, desires? Yes, I have been guilty of that. I think it comes from fighting for recognition myself. In the world at large where the difference between me and the other worldly (societies majority as a whole) challenges my very existence. I get caught in the 'it's all about me' syndrome. My views, my opinions, etc.

When this happens, she speaks up, challenges me and I have to stop and think about what she's said. I can't think of an example off hand.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

[evolveme]

Hi there.. I wanted to take a moment and apologize ( if necessary) for my earlier response if it was taken as any way other than brief. I admittedly felt that my words felt picked apart and focused on rather than my intent, which was to just say " wow... y'all rawk!"
I know in hindsight ( after several, MANY re-readings) the questions you posed are really great questions and would be a great thread for both butch and femme folks to ask of themselves regarding how they "see" their partners "outside of their "roles" " . I never wanted to derail the purpose of this thread, which is why I never responded more.
I would like to ask evolveme to start such a thread if she feels so moved, because the words she chose to use in the asking really did give me pause to consider these things. I would also love to see a thread that that might expound on how our "roles" ( not necessarily butch-femme per se) do contribute to how we define others as well as self.
" seeing ourselves clearly" is the beginning of embracing ourselves. Or is it the result of embracing that we are truly able to "see" ?
At any rate.. Thank you. and I mean it this time!!!!!

Jess, I accept your apology. Thank you for offering it. :)

I also appreciate that you chose to keep looking at this and to reconsider how it was intended. It can be really difficult for people to understand feminine women (especially) beyond their roles, but I believe it is so important.

I also believe it is of primary importance for each of us to be able to define ourselves beyond/external to our roles/relationships. And here again, I am speaking about my feminine peeps.

As for starting a thread on this subject, I'm not inclined to do so at this time. My focus right now is on probing how we as feminine people are seen, how we see and understand ourselves, to what degree we are sublimated by the masculine domination in our environments. And how we can more actively move this tendency toward a more egalitarian dynamic.

[evolveme]

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

<snip>

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

<snipy snip>

[Kosmo]

Kosmo, I see that you decided to post and I need you to know that this confuses me. Be that as it may, I'm going to give you my honest response, while asking you to understand that I recognize your sincerity, your appreciation for Femme, your love for your partner, and your wish that we be seen. I appreciate all of that.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.

Some of your post feels patronizing. I get that this isn't how you intended it to feel. But, that's how it sounds. To me.

I mean, don't tell me what you think I need to do to change how I am perceived. If I'm not being seen, or if I am not being perceived above the din of masculinity, your voice telling me how to go about it is only adding to the problem.

I don't need to know how 'your girl' is clear in her communication in the context of this question, because, you know, so am I. I'm pretty damn clear most of the time and I don't need a masculine or male someone to tell me why that's a good thing or how sexy or pretty it is, because, man, it just is.

Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo. It just seemed to me that you hadn't read the thread entirely before you posted and that is important to me. The answers to your entire second paragraph can be found here. I don't think they need to be reiterated unless a femme decides for herself that she'd like to discuss them again. What I mean is that, this discussion should not be lead (as they too often tend to be) by a butch or masculine person.

Thank you for not taking me personally. I really, really am trying to talk about the concept of masculine-over. That's partly what this thread is about.

Fair enough. I leave you to it.

[blush]

Hi, blush *smiles*

How do you feel you are perceived? Do you feel invisible? Do you feel you take a back seat position to others? Do you feel that your opinion, statements, or thoughts are not considered or taken into account? Do you feel an unbalance in the dynamics of butch-femme or male/masculine-female/feminine engagement, here and in the world around you. It does carry over.

She realizes that she herself also walks in that ghost like veil of invisibility even if she doesn't physically look any different than the next person. You know what I mean? Being careful about sharing her personal life, assumptions by straight men, women, etc. I need to be sensitive to that. I need to let her know that she is not alone in dealing with it, even if only wanting to vent about it, *smiles*.

I think 'we' need to say more than thank you to all the females/femmes for supporting us, how powerful the femme dynamic seems to some of us, how we can't live without you. But is that the only sentiment you really want to hear. What does it mean? We are all individuals that want recognition for who we are, what we think, not only how it compliments or supports another. Truth is, I can live without the femme, but I would rather live with it.*winks*

Here in the forum, all of you need to speak your mind. Don't settle for the back seat or a 'good girl' sentiment (I tease my girl 'cause she gets riled when she sees that). Don't allow the interruption of conversation (which is rude to begin with).

My girl tells me when she is not happy about something and I damn well better be paying attention, lol. But, and this is important to our relationship, she listens when I'm not happy about something too.

Yes, all y'all *winks* need to change the perception. Just give the rest of us a clear understanding of what it is you expect.

I think I've talked too much, *snickers*

I have to add that my relationship dynamic with my girl is such that if I were to interrupt her and ask for a beer, I think she would most likely look at me with a 'really?' expression on her face. I've never done it and don't ever expect to, *chuckles*

Your post really got me thinking.

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.

I'd also like to add that, for me, there is a huge difference between a dynamic and internalized misogony. A dynamic is a choice and consensual, and both participants are "getting something" from it. Internalized misogony is a pattern of behaviors that may not be consensual(obviously this is not a full definition).

And now I'm off to get Goofy a beer before he smacks my ass. :awww:

[friskyfemme]

Does anybody think that we, as Femmes are guilty of contributing to the male centric way of things?

Do we judge each other harshly? If so, how can we overcome?

Sisters,

I have for many years struggled to maintain femme friends. Mainly, because of their preoccupation with butches. For some strange reason, femmes (I've known) can' t seem to have validity or fun with other femmes unless we're with our dates or flirting with guys. I have alot of 'straight' gfs as a result. They don't seem to have the same limitations. However, the component we don't share is sexual preference. It is truly difficult for my 'straight gal pals' to understand that a feminine femme is not straight.
I am who I am for me. I struggled through years of fighting my femininity, due a history of rape. I blamed myself for years. I thought femininess meant fragile and subserveant.
I rejected all the things I loved that were frilly, fluffy, 'girly'. But, as I past that '40' mark I realized I didn't care to live under anyone else's definition. I was reborn to 'all femme', I like long bathes, 'my femme day' (1day a week to pamper myself), hiking in nature, or camping out. I am more that just a pretty face and so areall of us! I glad to see some commaradity here.

[blush]

PPS, but I do get that with the history sexism, it would be different. Goofy is Trans, right? would it be the same if Goofy were Butch? I think so.

I agree with you. I think we are speaking about femme counterparts, whether they're butch or trans.

[Diva]

I love this thread.
I love the way the conversation flow is respectful and searching and sane.

Something e said to Kosmo spoke to me, and blush, too....right.....a butch can't answer these questions for us. But I would take this one step further and say NO ONE can answer these questions for me, BUT me. No one can answer them for blush EXCEPT blush...and so on and so forth.

And, while I love this thread...and all the wise words that are put out here ~ convo is a GOOD thing! ~ in the end, it is up to me.

It is up to me to be strong.
It is up to me not to be objectified.
It is up to me not to be a doormat.
It is up to me not to be invisible.
It is up to me not to whine about it.

I am a strong submissivewomanmomteacherdivathangetc. If I am in a relationship, I have no problem saying that I will be supportive of my partner, because I will have had the good sense to have found Someone who will also be supportive of me. (And blush, I know You have that! <smile> )

I hope this hasn't been an offensive post. We are ALL on this journey......for ourselves.....and yet.....in sisterhood. :princess:

[apretty]

I always stumble over the word "supportive" when femmes are described. Because I think that is the crux of the problem. We are ALWAYS supporting. We're not jock straps, yanno? But it diminishes us. A femme's partner is situationally supportive (as in, my baby was supportive when I had my surgery), but femmes are generally and overall described as supportive.

What would I like to see? I'd like to see more recognition that we walk beside our partners. We're not in the background bucking y'all up. I'd like to see more recognition that although we may partner better with certain "types" of butches or trans fellas, every femme I know are fiercely protective of all of y'all. And, I would certainly like to see less "labeling" of who a femme is based on who she fucks. We're completely capable of deciding which community we do and do not belong to. And it has no bearing on who we are currently partnered with.


I love the parts that I bolded: yesyesyes! I am sick to death of being thought of as 'supportive'. Supportive of what, for what?! No one has an easy road of it so I would love to see the 'supportive' stripped from 'femme'. (If a butch requires constant support (in whatever form), that butch needs a mom not a lovah.)

C's Perspective:

And another thing: Show me (everyone) the respect we deserve. I don't want to hear a butch that doesn't own or wear a suit defining their desire for *high femme* as heels, stockings and skirts. Nor do I want to hear a butch define for anyone else what is or is not their own particular *femme*. I am sick of this hierarchy of *femme* and I really am sick of butches participating in that discussion (fueling the fire).

We're all worth it, F anyone who says otherwise.

[Arwen]

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine. :)

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.

[Lynn]

In my butch-femme relationship, our identities and attributes interact to the extent that we define who we are to each other. I, in this b-f relationship, am probably not exactly the same as I would be in another relationship with another butch. The relationship doesn't define who I am. It impacts on other aspects of life, and, can affect them greatly. The same could be said for other identities, like who I am at work, at home, as a mother, or whatever else I assert as my role.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centric (that means "patriarchal"--right?). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.

I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.

[julieisafemme]

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine. :)

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.


I have not spent hardly any time as an unattached femme. I met someone and then immediately was defined by that person and his ID. The fact that my partner is trans has brought many suprising interactions my way both in the queer world and the straight world. I wish I could say that they were good surprises. So sometimes I feel like I have no clue who I am as a femme and that all the word means is who I am partnered with. That is why I love this thread!!!!!

I love all labels. I am a labely kind of gal. The supportive role and label we have talked about is one I don't like sometimes. As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

[apretty]

I have not spent hardly any time as an unattached femme. I met someone and then immediately was defined by that person and his ID.

who were you before you met your sig/other? how/why did that change?

[Julie]

Okay, I am all caught up now. For now.
Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Dear June,

Having a voice doesn't make you masculine. It makes you human.

Love,
Poodle

Dear Poodle... Thank you for reminding June of her humanness and in doing so, reminding me.

I am a woman of peace... Conflict breaks me and the good little girl in me comes out, because sometimes my voice is lost. I flinch at a silencing hand and I dare to revolt against it.

When I find my ground and the big voiced Femme in me appears, I stand up, not to be heard, but to stand tall within myself.

I have been silenced, though only for a moment in time, as I do remember who I am, and shame on the energy who has attempted to silence me, because when I do wake up and hear the voice of the speaker, I walk, and I will walk slowly with great belief in myself. Sometimes without even uttering a goodbye.

What a brilliant topic.

Julie

[julieisafemme]

who were you before you met your sig/other? how/why did that change?

Oh my! Well I was a straight married mama. I have always been queer and attracted to butches but could not figure out why I did not fit in the lesbian world. Femme was not a concept or word I was familiar with. Finding out that there was a label for how I felt was a revelation to me. I also have OCD and only was diagnosed and treated in the past two years. I am kind of new in the world in general right now. So I left my husband who was and still is abusive and came out to all my friends and family. It's been Mr Toad's wild ride here!!! It's been a year since I left and just recently I have taken a breath and assessed all the changes in my life. Some are good and some are bad. Some are inevitable and I can't control them and others are choices I can reexamine. The main thing I know is that leaving and coming out was the right decision and has made me happier and more free than I had thought possible.

[blush]

It is up to me to be strong.
It is up to me not to be objectified.
It is up to me not to be a doormat.
It is up to me not to be invisible.
It is up to me not to whine about it.

I am a strong submissivewomanmomteacherdivathangetc. If I am in a relationship, I have no problem saying that I will be supportive of my partner, because I will have had the good sense to have found Someone who will also be supportive of me. (And blush, I know You have that! <smile>

[/COLOR]

[/COLOR]

Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.

[Arwen]

the implication of being nefariously destructive because you dare to question the implied heirarchy of presumed (or assumed) power. And all this is designed to do, is to force us to sit down, shut up and be good girls. -- Fuck that.

When we allow anyone to silence us in order to conform, we are acting out of fear that we will be excluded somehow, or punished, or ostracized or accused of "isms" in order to deflect from what is really going on. I have seen so many people lose themselves in this systematic, deliberate process.


Oh hell yeah, June. I am still struggling with this issue of being silenced in ordered to conform. I've done this for years and years and years. Only lately have I found the strength to draw a line in the sand and truly stick to my personal safety boundaries.

And it is more than hard. It's like concrete with those little rocks thrown in for texture. It hurts to rub up against. I don't like it but I have to maintain it for my own good.

It causes uncomfortable silences. It makes for hard conversation. It requires blunt, raw self-honesty that does not flinch when it looks in your mirror.

It is, one might want to say, not feminine.

Just because you can't find your own voice, doesn't
mean you get to silence mine.

QUOTABLE ALERT. I want to cross-stitch this and hang it in my house. Thank you.

Femme Heirarchy/Butch Heirarchy/Masculine Heirarchy -- All it is doing is dividing us further and it sickens me. No one should have to fight for space *here* the way we all have to *there* (outside). Somehow, there has to be a way for us to be able to admit our internalized feelings (even the ugly ones) in ways that allow us to be introspective without making anyone feel less than.

This space here seems to be allowing us to do that at least in this thread. I don't go into some of the other threads so I may be missing things.


And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Dear June,

Having a voice doesn't make you masculine. It makes you human.

Love,
Poodle

This was honestly one of the best posts of this thread for me personally. I have fought with myself over this one. The thing I get hit with when I voice an unpopular opinion or speak stridently or "meanly" is that I am being "toppy".

Same thing. Apparently femme also equals submissive (can someone tell Snow that because I'm just not that brave.) So it becomes a silencer to tell someone they are being "toppy" when all they are doing is expressing an opinion.

Having a voice doesn't make you dominant . It makes you human.

Thanks, poodle. Your next haircut (topiary included) is on me.


I love all labels. I am a labely kind of gal. The supportive role and label we have talked about is one I don't like sometimes. As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

This is going to sound harsh.

There is time for you when you make time for you. Expecting others to fulfill your needs is a waste of precious time. Do for yourself or don't get it at all.

I do not mean that your partner can not complement you as well as compliment you. Far from it.

But how tiresome would it be to feel that you have to meet your partner's every need.

So I challenge you to make time for yourself this week and stick to it. :)

[julieisafemme]

Oh hell yeah, June. I am still struggling with this issue of being silenced in ordered to conform. I've done this for years and years and years. Only lately have I found the strength to draw a line in the sand and truly stick to my personal safety boundaries.

And it is more than hard. It's like concrete with those little rocks thrown in for texture. It hurts to rub up against. I don't like it but I have to maintain it for my own good.

It causes uncomfortable silences. It makes for hard conversation. It requires blunt, raw self-honesty that does not flinch when it looks in your mirror.

It is, one might want to say, not feminine.



QUOTABLE ALERT. I want to cross-stitch this and hang it in my house. Thank you.



This space here seems to be allowing us to do that at least in this thread. I don't go into some of the other threads so I may be missing things.



This was honestly one of the best posts of this thread for me personally. I have fought with myself over this one. The thing I get hit with when I voice an unpopular opinion or speak stridently or "meanly" is that I am being "toppy".

Same thing. Apparently femme also equals submissive (can someone tell Snow that because I'm just not that brave.) So it becomes a silencer to tell someone they are being "toppy" when all they are doing is expressing an opinion.

Having a voice doesn't make you dominant . It makes you human.

Thanks, poodle. Your next haircut (topiary included) is on me.



This is going to sound harsh.

There is time for you when you make time for you. Expecting others to fulfill your needs is a waste of precious time. Do for yourself or don't get it at all.

I do not mean that your partner can not complement you as well as compliment you. Far from it.

But how tiresome would it be to feel that you have to meet your partner's every need.

So I challenge you to make time for yourself this week and stick to it. :)


Harsh away!!! I didn't take it as harsh at all. I just spent the evening with my two sisters, a friend we have known for 20 years and my niece. It is way past my bed time!! I had a delightful evening.

[Diva]

Yeah, my baby and I buck each other up. But for me, I'm speaking to that public and cultural perception that femmes have. The idea that the highest compliment we can pay a femme is to say she is supportive. Yet the highest compliment we can pay our counterparts is to say they are "strong."

I'm speaking in generalities, which is always sometimes true, yanno.

I do totally agree that the answer lies within. Our own truths lie within. But its damn lonely and hard to find those truths. I know that, particularly this last year, I've missed the femme voices in the forums.


I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.:twitch:

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!:stillheart:

[Gemme]

Labels.

I am one of those who actually likes labels. I like to stick them on myself and then watch other people's brains turn to mush when they try to figure out how all of those labels can be one person.

When I am in a partnership, I like "taking care" of my other half. It feeds my soul. I do this on a fairly instinctive basis. It is not because I think it is the "girl" role. I do this for my friends as well. It is the "Arwen" role.

I believe that when we make a case for femme as anything we define it as, we must make sure that we are not limiting that "anything" to anything we are comfortable with.

I like to cook. When I shared a house with Goofy, I enjoyed feeding him. (please note he cooked as well). I do not know if he got the same enjoyment out of cooking for me as I did for him. (Also, for those that do not know, Goof and I are just friends. )

But cooking, for me, is an expression of who I am. Not my femme self. My Arwen self. I do it because it is a way to put some of my creativity out there in a tangible way.

So, if I enjoy cooking, does that make me an accomplice to the male-centric domination of our culture?

I don't think so.

I think if I got upset that my partner cooked, THEN I would be contributing.

I do know that I've made jokes about a butch's place is at the BBQ. I personally do not enjoy BBQing. I like eating it and fixing it...but the actual standing by the BBQ? Not so much.

Yeah, I do see that as a "boy" thing. And that is my own lightbulb on how I foster this male-centric attitude.

Now, mind you, this does NOT mean I am going to hit the BBQ. I will however change my language around it being the butch's job. How about in my world, it is anyone's job but mine. :)

How about a thread challenge? We are all doing so fabulously at conversing here.

Who else can come up with a personal, concrete example of what you (not generic, but personal) do to foster even in a small way, the idea that femme is somehow defined/refined by butch?

What labels do you love? hate? What do you somehow see as your role that possibly is not?

Yes, I know I'm rambling. I do that.


I'm not going to contribute anything new at this time, but I do so love this post. I relate to it (and you!) on many levels.

[evolveme]

This thread is about Femmes, but if we are also talking about how we buy into the reality of Male-centric behavior, I want to touch on how I am witnessing the lack of respect between SOME Butches and Transmen. The pissing contest mentality, the scrambling for power, the stepping on and over each other in what appears to me to be an attempt to create or perpetuate a heirarchy where none (in my opinion) needs to exist. Femme Heirarchy/Butch Heirarchy/Masculine Heirarchy -- All it is doing is dividing us further and it sickens me. No one should have to fight for space *here* the way we all have to *there* (outside). Somehow, there has to be a way for us to be able to admit our internalized feelings (even the ugly ones) in ways that allow us to be introspective without making anyone feel less than.

[/B]

I loved this, Junebug.

You are so mighty, mighty.

[blush]

.

As blush said, I don't want to be identified by who I choose to fuck. It's one aspect of me. I agree that labels are useful. Labels and language are meaningful and powerful.That is why I have yet to find myself comfortable with being identified as a femme. I've said elsewhere, and probably here...to me, and for me, femme is an attribute, not an identity.

How do I contribute to the idea that femme is defined or refined by butch? I don't know. I don't equate the masculinity of a butch with male-centrict?(that means "patriarchal"--right). I have NO expectatation of any trappings (I think they're trappings) of stereotypical male-female roles and duties in my relationship, but I don't have any problem where they would appear to be so, for me or for anyone else. I think we've come to the point where we have the right to be, without apology.
YES! YES! YES!
I've been working on this for far too long...might I be self-censoring? Perhaps. So, it's time to post.
Femme certainly means different things to different people. For some femmes, it is their gender, for others, it is their sexuality, and for others, it is a descriptor.

For me, masculinity simply describes the energy. Our counterparts are more masculine than femmes.

My understanding of male-centric is a "centering" or anchoring of our community(butch-femme) around masculinity. It differs, in my mind, from patriarchy because we do not depend upon a "father-figure."



Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

Yeah...It's that whole "you throw ALMOST as good as a boy."


I appreciated this post....so much.

And I guess I'm oblivious and/or naive....as I didn't realize that there WAS a 'public & cultural perception' with other femmes.....now....when I lived as a wife in the church of Christ? Oh HELL yeah.....it was that "good little woman" syndrome....can You even imagine me in that role? I was very good. But I nearly lost my sanity because I nearly lost myself.:twitch:

And now You know.

Indeed. To find our own truths can sometimes be lonely. But once they're found, they're so liberating.

I love this thread!:stillheart:


Aren't there always private and public perceptions of just about anything? The public/private perception of a teacher? A doctor? A mother? A wife?

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...

[Diva]

Laughing at you as a COC wife...JesusChristonacracker...



LOL! That pretty much sums it up, for sure!
:laundryday:

[christie]

I have been reading and rereading this thread, trying to wrap my head around some of the points of view and perspectives. Some things really hit home… others not so much, but I recognize that they are valid points of view.

What I am hearing is a majority consensus that we femmes are seen as supporting cast members rather than the headliners.

That we are seen as “less than” our masculine counterparts.

That we are seen as “less than” in our queer community.

That we have been silenced because our presenting energy isn’t masculine.

That we are the sum of our roles rather than an entity in our own right.

I also think that quite a bit of what is being spoken here is very generalized and vague. Perhaps it’s just that I am not in the majority in my experiences of navigating the world as a femme. Maybe it’s that like for some, femme is just another facet of me. If I start listing all that is Christie, femme, while important, is just an ingredient in the recipe of me.

While I can certainly understand all of these things, for the most part, they just don’t apply to me; or at least they don’t apply to the majority of my lived years. Is it that I feel like they don’t apply in my “real life” and that I see it happening more in online communities? Have we considered that the surge in BDSMers in the BF world might have something to do with the perceptions of being silenced, of being seen as less than and in a supportive role? It seems that the majority of kinksters in the Top realm of power exchange relationships are predominantly masculine and that most bottoms are feminine. That in M/s dynamics, the “s” is akin to chattel, without a voice or expected to have/use a brain, that in D/s, a submissive is consenting to the Dominant’s will.

I would hope that no one interprets my observation above about BDSM as anything but more in that I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

In my early adulthood, yes, I tried to live the life my parents mapped out for me. It was very apparent to me that I could never be “that” woman. In the end, I had to give myself permission to live my own life. I think that all young adults, no matter gender or ID, have to move through this process.

Even in living that lie, I was still who I am today. Perhaps not as enhanced and evolved, but the core of who I am has always been there. Different qualities taking on more presence, or less presence, as I grew, matured and moved through the world.

There was a point made by evolveme about who we are outside our roles. For me, I think that even in shedding the labels, the attributes of that role are still present. For example, if I had not had the role of “mother”, I would still be a nurturer. I don’t think I would have quite the same depth of nurturing ability. For me, being a mother makes me be “better.” My perception of what being a mother means has meant those qualities, which I already possessed, were brought to the surface and utilized and challenged.

I don’t use males or masculinity as the scale by which I am measured, unless, of course, it’s to be superior. I never “threw a ball like a girl”; I always “threw a ball better than anyone else.”

I do think that my motherinlaw’s view of women has caused me to be more in “competition” with what she considers male superiority. When we were taking bids for floor refinishing, she said something about my crackhead, IQ of a piece of cardboard brotherinlaw and how she wanted to rent the equipment for him to refinish his own floors. I looked at Jess and said, “Oh fuck that. If he can do it, so can we.” Moral of the story, four weeks of backbreaking labor and love and we have amazing floors… all done at the hands of two women.

A man who inherited the business from his father employs me. Both are very staunch, conservative republicans with stay home wives and are both the walking, breathing epitome of male privilege. They had never had a woman in power at their company, in its entire 56 year history until I joined them 1.5 years ago. I could tell at the beginning that I would have to stand toe to toe with the elder so as to not be pigeonholed into what I felt his ideas of my role would be. The son, who is my age, has said that I have changed his father’s perceptions of women. Just last week, I was promoted and will be taking over the helm of the business in January. I am not so naïve as to think that I won’t have a struggle ahead of me just because I wasn’t born with a penis.

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

[SuperFemme]

Actually I know of many Femme Tops/Daddy's. I also don't believe that the 's' in M/S is in any way, shape or form chattel. It is all about a power exchange. Nothing (and I mean nothing) goes un-negotiated in any leather relationship.

We are claiming our sexuality, releasing the shame. That makes people nervous.
I find it MOST interesting that women find it uncomfortable to see a Femme as a Dominant. Let's not even bring up a Femme with a cock. Oh good lord! That gets people twitterpated in a not good way.

While our experiences are all individual, we have a safe space here to speak. I think that is the only group think going on here. Let your voices be heard. Remember, Femmes are like snowflakes (actually, people are) there are no two exactly alike. Sociology, upbringing, culture, geographical locations and race are all factors that can greatly affect how we move through the world.

[christie]

Actually I know of many Femme Tops/Daddy's. I also don't believe that the 's' in M/S is in any way, shape or form chattel. It is all about a power exchange. Nothing (and I mean nothing) goes un-negotiated in any leather relationship.

We are claiming our sexuality, releasing the shame. That makes people nervous.
I find it MOST interesting that women find it uncomfortable to see a Femme as a Dominant. Let's not even bring up a Femme with a cock. Oh good lord! That gets people twitterpated in a not good way.

While our experiences are all individual, we have a safe space here to speak. I think that is the only group think going on here. Let your voices be heard. Remember, Femmes are like snowflakes (actually, people are) there are no two exactly alike. Sociology, upbringing, culture, geographical locations and race are all factors that can greatly affect how we move through the world.




I, too, know my share of Femme Tops/Daddys. Gee, I even resembled that at one point in my journey; however removed it is from my life today.

Again, my experiences with M/s couples who are 24/7, part of the power exchange is that the "s" willingly consents to giving up autonomy.

I merely brought this up as an example of how we (the collective femme population) might have gotten to this point. This place where we are examining who and what we are and where we choose to carve out our niche in our worlds.

I appreciate the different experiences and the opportunity to see the world through others' eyes.

[Apocalipstic]

The way BSDM comes in to play for me is that if I am around anyone from the B/F community and someone orders their partner to do something for them (example from Arwen) it is difficult to know when it's a BDSM thing or a really bad manners sexist thing.

Also, in my area, it is hella shocking for a Femme to be a Top or have a dick....another thread....

On to another subject....

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?
Do I dumb it down around people when we are together and let her be the smart one?
Do I just look dumb?
What does this mean?

:wtf::wtf::wtf::wtf:

Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

[SuperFemme]

I've often wondered about the whole perception of the BDSM thing.

Women (specifically Femmes) are not thought of as powerful. Men come with built in power. Women/Femmes have to fight for it and they tend to horde it. So it feels semi reactionary when people get aghast at a Femme giving her power away willingly. It feels like betrayal to some people. But it's NOT! We have so much power. The decision to give or take power is powerful in and of itself.

There is also the duality of a Femme being dominant. It is frowned upon in a 'doesn't she know her place' kind of way. Remember, Femme is a supporting role. Just not TOO supportive in the imagined hierarchy.

Using the word chattel makes me uncomfortable. It feels like it sets up an unfair perception of such relationships. One cannot willingly consent to something and then be deemed to have no voice.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I can't think and I have been sitting here trying to think of any femmes, or women, or girls in a D/s or M/s dynamic who I do not view as strong.. I really can't even imagine it truth be told

[Apocalipstic]

I think (and I could be wrong) that Christie was saying that a strong woman can choose to be "chattel" in a BDSM setting.

I also can see the problem with the word "chattel" and (for me), the word "slave". There is so much negative history intertwined with those words that I wince every time I see or hear them. However, some of the strongest women I know use and embrace those words in a BDSM setting.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I think (and I could be wrong) that Christie was saying that a strong woman can choose to be "chattel" in a BDSM setting.

I also can see the problem with the word "chattel" and (for me), the word "slave". There is so much negative history intertwined with those words that I wince every time I see or hear them. However, some of the strongest women I know use and embrace those words in a BDSM setting.


And as I sit here..

I can't think of one slave I know

who is not strong

not one..

:blah:

[Apocalipstic]

And as I sit here..

I can't think of one slave I know

who is not strong

not one..

:blah:

Me either.

Has anyone here said that? I was just agreeing that some of the language used, taken out of context can seem to be something it is not.

Like if (to use Arwen's example) Goofy and Blush had agreed prior to the party that Blush was Goofy's slave for the evening, it would not be sexist if Goofy ordered Blush to bring him a beer.

PS. My apologies If I sounded like I was :)

[Bit]

Please don't stop posting. *smiles*

Kosmo, thank you for that. I appreciate the support.

Still, I'm struggling here because it feels wrong to me that a butch person would answer this question - how we can 'change how we are perceived' - and honestly, I just don't feel it's appropriate. I just don't feel it's your place.
<snip>
Please do not misread me, Kosmo. This is not personal between me, e, and you Kosmo.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}} You know I love you, darlin, and I admire your mind intensely. I recognize what you want from the thread, and I heard you saying you didn't want this to be personal between you and Kosmo.

I dunno how Kosmo took it, but reading your post, it felt personal to me. Please let me explain why?

You said in the beginning of your post that Kosmo's choice to post confused you. Two things stand out for me. The first is, early in the thread we as a group said Butch/Trans input was welcome, and we engaged in conversations with the Butches and Transmen who posted. The second is, Blush asked Kosmo a direct question; she specifically asked for that post. Wouldn't have ignoring her been a subtle form of silencing her? It would certainly have been utterly rude!

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I fully admit this is simply how I read it. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way, and if so, well, I apologize for derailing the thread.

I just know that I do not live in a vacuum and I cannot be authentically me without deeply examining all the parts of my life.... and half the examining comes from without, from testing my own thoughts, perceptions, and opinions up against those of other people. The people I value the most for that examining are always the people in my own community, whatever their identities might happen to be... I am looking always for the thoughts which shed light on my soul, and I find them as often from Butches and Transmen as from Femmes. I don't wish for any of us to be silenced.

Please know that I understand your goal for the thread is to have a deep conversation among Femmes; I appreciate your willingness to shepherd this convo... but if Butch/Trans voices are not welcome as part of that conversation, then I think we should be really clear and say so outright to everyone, and we should as a group stop inviting their participation.

She had just voiced her own internal sexism about my demeanor. My forthrightness, my sometimes strident tone, my confidence, my...everything.

Because I am often not "A good girl", therefore, I must be... masculine? Because if Femme = Feminine, doesn't Butch = masculine? At least to some degree? For a lot of us?

And each of us has to reconcile it within ourselves, and if we are brave we talk about it, lay it on the table, so to speak and hope that others will try to understand outside of their own belief system.

*wry smile* I would say that since the very definition of Butch (unless we changed it again and someone forgot to send me the memo) is "Female Masculinity," that yes, Butch equals masculine to some degree. And I have seen this before, June, but in a sad way, Femmes deciding that since they are not stereotypical Good Girls, nor even stereotypical Good Women, that they must therefore not be Femme, must have been mistaken all those years, must not ever have been Femme, must be Butch instead.

Binaries that have no elastic to them make me sad. Why does it have to be either/or, and so narrowly defined? But that's what society teaches/preaches.

As a woman I am expected to be supportive of everyone, all the time. That gets old and it is my mistake and my responsibility to support myself first always. I don't do that and that is a problem. It is the age old lament I think. When is there time for me?

Only when you take it, darlin. Only when you decide that you, too, have the same value and worth as any other human being. Only when you break through the bonds of society's conditioning and insist, not just to everyone you have already taught to devalue you, but to yourself--for you are the one who devalues yourself to begin with--that your time is your own.

If you have small children, you may have to pay for that time with cash, to a babysitter. Think about how much you might pay a babysitter... and what that says about your estimate of your own value as a human being. I find most Femmes to be absolutely priceless, value beyond measuring... but someone who is struggling with the whole idea may only believe she herself is worth that five or ten dollars she pays a babysitter.

Someone who cannot "justify" paying the babysitter at all? Actions speak louder than words: she believes she is worthless.

Whether one has children or not, it's worth thinking about. What message would you want to give to [your] children about the value of adult women? Are they intrinsically priceless? Or are they barely worth the money it would take to pay a babysitter?

....I think as the subcultures of the queer world grow and expand, so does the coloring of our perceptions. I think that as a subculture within a subculture (BDSM within BF) becomes more highly visible and is the “chatter (latest, greatest new thing)” that “voice” or that image can be seen as the collective view.

This is a good point, christie, and I ran into it repeatedly when I was newbie to the b-f world. Because I was new and also not part of the BDSM world, I didn't recognize for a couple of years that the attitudes I ran into were not typical of "Butches" but were, in fact, a subculture. Looking back, I think some of the Butches who were not part of that subculture were influenced by it anyway, because I found the attitudes pervasive for a while.

OK, so something strange happened last week. A friend told me that his G/F thinks Cynthia (my Butch G/F) is soooo much more intelligent, and it's so great to be able to talk just to her about intelligent things.....blah blah. Another friend said that people automatically assume Cynthia is more intelligent because she is more masculine and men are automatically supposed to be smarter. WTFFFFFFFFFFF??????

*reminds you* "bit" is NOT about pony play, "bit" is NOT about pony play....

I utterly HATE it when people assume the more masculine one is automatically the brains of the outfit. [My screen name came from that.] I'm not gonna be with anyone who is not majorly intelligent, since intelligence is a big turn-on for me, but really now.... I am more than just nice. I am more than just a Good Girl.

My intelligent partner has some pretty high standards of his own in the Intelligence Department. He is not with me because I'm glamorous, yanno? *eyeroll from the Homespun girl*

Then, chatting with another friend this weekend, I mentioned how differently I dress when I do or do not have a G/F. How when I am single I would never go to the bar in a dress and heels, because I need to look more in control. WTFFFFFFFFFFFF?

Do I maybe use Cynthia's masculinity as a shield?

Maybe... I know that in situations of danger or possible discomfort, I use Gryph's masculinity as a shield.

I also know that I use my own clothing choices as a shield.

I also use just being partnered as a shield.

I would never go into a bar wearing "flirty feminine" clothes if I did not want to come out of the bar on someone's arm. That would just be asking for hassles, yanno? But if I am with my partner, I can dress any way I choose; it's safe.

Is this reaction and my desire to tell everyone who has the biggest dick in our house, my inner 16 year old boy having a tantrum?

My Femme is intelligent and wears a big blue opalescent dick.

I think you answered your own question. It is your Inner Femme asserting Herself, claiming Her own power.

[Bit]

Dear Poodle,

Please tell June that I am "not Butch enough" to completely dispense with question marks.

I would tell her myself, but I am afraid I might offend Kat.

Sincerely,
Cheeky Femme

:raspberry:

[Apocalipstic]

Bit Bit, you make so much sense!

I am so laughing about you and your pony play! *grin*

I do the question mark thing too. UGH.

The what we wear to the bar thing makes sense. It is totally asking for a hassle to wear something girly to the bar alone...so I resort to hanging my keys off my Levis, as if to say..."whatch, it I can poke your eyes out if you hassle me."

and Intelligence?

My Femme is smart.

So there!

:spider:

[Medusa]

My Femme wants to talk about her "good girl" but is feeling emotionally spent today so is marking her place instead.

[SuperFemme]

My Femme wants to talk about her "good girl" but is feeling emotionally spent today so is marking her place instead.

I think the very fact that we have this space to discuss denotes your secret good girl side.

[Bit]

{{{{{{{{{{{Dusa}}}}}}}}}}} Hope your energy builds back quickly!

Now Jen.... there is NO pony play. "Baby-Butch In Training" is not about horses.... and yanno, she ain't about bein' sweet either, lol.... she's gonna get up on that ladder and FIX that ceiling fan, even if she *does* need a little help climbing down again. Hey, that's a balance issue, not a girl thing. ;)

[SuperFemme]

I didn't interpret e's response to Kosmo as personal. I read it as (even if the question was asked) it felt uncomfortable to e to have a butch speak on Femme and how a Femme can change perception. Because it's not something a Butch could know. Just as a femme cannot speak to how a Butch can change perceptions or roles. Each are unique.

tyvm

[apretty]

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."


one way that we can be more-than 'supportive' of our masculine counterparts is to not speak for them (and vice-versa). additionally, there are times when the most supportive thing a person can do is *shut up*. (of course i'm not telling anyone to shut up, here--but i am speaking from my personal experience.) and stepping away from the conversation intended for a select group of peoples (like, dear femme...) is about being a good *listener* and not about *silencing* it's about the femme-peoples carving out specific space for those *femmes* and everyone respecting it. and no femme person in that femme-person space, as i see it, should be apologetic for saying polite but firm, 'no, thank you' when the very act of speaking-for is being demonstrated.

*Bit: i tried to get your font when i quoted you, but i had to guess. sorry for altering it. *

[Medusa]

I think the very fact that we have this space to discuss denotes your secret good girl side.

You made me cry. Right here at my desk. In front of everyone. And I dont care who thinks its messy.

Or maybe the situation made me cry. Lemme see what I can muster. (I always want to write "mustard" here because it's funnier but the Virgo in me cringes when I fuck up euphamisms)

Today I am sitting here at my desk at work where I really should be working but I am instead swirling in some heavy emotions and doing a lot of internal processing. I am listening to Angie Aparao on my ipod and he's doing a great cover of "Champagne Supernova" and maybe the pitch of his voice was just right or maybe it's the melody or the words but as I was reading your post, Adele, he sang the line "Where were you while we were getting high?" and he took the last note way, WAY out. The kind of sound where your heart is stretched thin like a piece of pink bubblegum and it feels the emotion of want and need and sound congealed behind notes and pulse.
So I cried. Because I am overwhelmed. Because I am sad. Because I am resolute. Because I am afraid. Because I am no longer afraid.

I have spent most of last night and today writing my resignation letter from a group that I have belonged to for 4 years. A group that has done important work that is specific to my way of being that I have always felt incredibly strongly about supporting. I came to a place at some point in the last several months where I realized that I had to step away. I came to a place over the last couple of weeks where I knew that stepping away would be scary. Over the last couple of days, I realized it would be painful. Over the last several hours I have felt a range of emotions from anger to resolve to sadness to something that feels like mourning.

I have been all at once afraid of the reactions of my fellow committee members and resolute to not care. I have struggled with being authentic and direct without being unecessarily hurtful. I have thought hard about my involvement with the organization and what it will mean to the friendships that exist inside of and outside of that space when I leave. My leaving centers around some ugly stuff. Mostly stuff that is outside of my control. Mostly stuff that is hurtful to the scope of the organization.
I am weary y'all. Weary to the core of my being.
I have for so long operated by trying to be authentic and honest but also on some level ,with a fear of confronting. Its hard. The "good girl" in me who says to "sit down, keep silent, smooth your dress, dont make waves, dont tell what you know" is very much at odds with the spiritual being in me that says "speak your truth, speak it clearly, demand transparency, demand honesty, stand up for truth".
This conflict has created a weird dichotomy in me in the last 2 days. One where I want to just vomit up a bunch of stuff in my resignation letter to show that I am leaving because things got too fucked up for me to be part of. Part of me wants to "go quietly into that good night". Part of me feels that either of these options would not be good. Part of me knows that there will be huge backlash for calling uncomfortable things out and shining a light on ugly truths.

I guess I came to this thread because I have often felt such peace in the arms of other Femmes. Such understanding. Such graceful beauty and love. And I need those things today to help the girl in me who is scared to speak to find her voice. And I needed to remember that I am not a horrible person for seeking the truth. Thank you, Adele.

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.

[Julie]

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.

Dear Medusa,

We do not know one another well, though I believe as the Universe has provided for us both... We will learn about one another and develop as time passes.

So, here I sit before you as your femme sister, offering you my love and support for the great courage you will be facing and reminding you ever so sweetly, that you Dear Medusa, are not alone.

Love,
Julie

[Bit]

Well, like I said Adele, apretty, maybe it's just my perception. Maybe I've been silenced so many times that I'm really sensitive to it.

apretty, Verdana size three, and thank you for trying to figure it out.

[SuperFemme]

Medusa, embarking on new journeys and speaking ones truth can often lead to grief. You are grieving, and I want you to know that I applaud you for that. So often as Femme's and as Women we are not allowed to grieve.

You are on amazing human being. Thank you for being brave. Now put your right hand on your left shoulder and your left hand on your right shoulder. Squeeze. That is a collective Femme hug that is holding you tight as you embark. As you speak. As you give yourself permission to FEEL. We all hold you in our hearts.

with love,

Adele

[Bit]

{{{{{{{{{{{Dusa}}}}}}}}}}}

Big love to you, my sister Femme, for your courage and your grace, for your generosity, and for your willingness to recognize limits and endings.

Big love to you for being willing to say you are afraid, have been afraid, want to stop being afraid, have acted in spite of being afraid.

Big love to you, oh Medusa of the scary name and vulnerable heart, for being you. What you are doing might hurt like all hell but you are doing what is right for you and that is okay. You're supposed to.

Yes, you will mourn. Who doesn't mourn the end of a dream, especially the kind of dream that sustains us through the long lonelinesses and promises to build brighter tomorrows? Who doesn't mourn the loss of a community, however large or small, that fits us, that we wish would fit us forever? Who doesn't mourn the loss of friends?

I suppose there are probably those among us who are able to be fully honest and authentic and also never have to deal with fear of confrontations... but I am not one of them; my authentic self still shies away from conflict, and so I hold you close, Dusa, close in my heart, because I recognize how hard it is to do the thing which you are doing and my heart aches for you even as it makes space for you.

Be strong, sweet one, and keep faith with yourself. Remember that the strong can cry, can ask for help, can ask for support, can ask for love. It is your resolve that makes you strong, and your willingness to do what is painful but necessary. Your tears cannot make you anything less than a strong proud authentic honest Femme, doing what she knows is right.

Bright Blessings, Sister.

My heart to you and my tears for you,
Cath

[Apocalipstic]

You made me cry. Right here at my desk. In front of everyone. And I dont care who thinks its messy.

Or maybe the situation made me cry. Lemme see what I can muster. (I always want to write "mustard" here because it's funnier but the Virgo in me cringes when I fuck up euphamisms)

Today I am sitting here at my desk at work where I really should be working but I am instead swirling in some heavy emotions and doing a lot of internal processing. I am listening to Angie Aparao on my ipod and he's doing a great cover of "Champagne Supernova" and maybe the pitch of his voice was just right or maybe it's the melody or the words but as I was reading your post, Adele, he sang the line "Where were you while we were getting high?" and he took the last note way, WAY out. The kind of sound where your heart is stretched thin like a piece of pink bubblegum and it feels the emotion of want and need and sound congealed behind notes and pulse.
So I cried. Because I am overwhelmed. Because I am sad. Because I am resolute. Because I am afraid. Because I am no longer afraid.

I have spent most of last night and today writing my resignation letter from a group that I have belonged to for 4 years. A group that has done important work that is specific to my way of being that I have always felt incredibly strongly about supporting. I came to a place at some point in the last several months where I realized that I had to step away. I came to a place over the last couple of weeks where I knew that stepping away would be scary. Over the last couple of days, I realized it would be painful. Over the last several hours I have felt a range of emotions from anger to resolve to sadness to something that feels like mourning.

I have been all at once afraid of the reactions of my fellow committee members and resolute to not care. I have struggled with being authentic and direct without being unecessarily hurtful. I have thought hard about my involvement with the organization and what it will mean to the friendships that exist inside of and outside of that space when I leave. My leaving centers around some ugly stuff. Mostly stuff that is outside of my control. Mostly stuff that is hurtful to the scope of the organization.
I am weary y'all. Weary to the core of my being.
I have for so long operated by trying to be authentic and honest but also on some level ,with a fear of confronting. Its hard. The "good girl" in me who says to "sit down, keep silent, smooth your dress, dont make waves, dont tell what you know" is very much at odds with the spiritual being in me that says "speak your truth, speak it clearly, demand transparency, demand honesty, stand up for truth".
This conflict has created a weird dichotomy in me in the last 2 days. One where I want to just vomit up a bunch of stuff in my resignation letter to show that I am leaving because things got too fucked up for me to be part of. Part of me wants to "go quietly into that good night". Part of me feels that either of these options would not be good. Part of me knows that there will be huge backlash for calling uncomfortable things out and shining a light on ugly truths.

I guess I came to this thread because I have often felt such peace in the arms of other Femmes. Such understanding. Such graceful beauty and love. And I need those things today to help the girl in me who is scared to speak to find her voice. And I needed to remember that I am not a horrible person for seeking the truth. Thank you, Adele.

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.


Hugs to you!

I have found that speaking my truth, but only the truth is the way to go for me. Be kind, unemotional and only write the truth.

You are an incredibly strong brave woman and you can do this!

Look at all you have accomplished in the past year. You can do anything you set your mind to!

[Isadora]

Truth with tact and timing is what I always think about when trying to work through something... I also ask myself several questions...especially when dealing with hurt or anger...

1. Who is the truth for?

2. Will they even hear it?

3. Is the purpose of telling the "truth" (because even truth is subjective, colored by our own perceptions of what the truth may be) to harm or heal?

4. Will telling the truth change anything for the better other than make me feel justified?

I have quit several groups in my life (and people) for many reasons. I seldom give a reason because I don't have to, or because I felt the ethics was not even there for them to even hear the issues. I have to admit that there are times when I have had to say, "ENOUGH" and moved on with as much self dignity as possible.

I think that we perceive that we have to justify our actions or needs...and we don't...just resign and leave with your head held high and your ethics clean and clear.

You go girl, and remember that you are powerful inside and that is what matters and stopping involvement is not a failure but an opportunity for growth and change. You can't keep pouring water in a full cup, it just gets messy, you have to empty it before you can refill it with another flavor. One that may be much more tasty!

[SuperFemme]

I've walked away from people with no explanation.

The thing is, speaking ones truth is important. Not "the ONLY truth" but ones truth.
I will no longer let anybody write my history for me. When I speak my truth I lift the veils of silence that bad people and bad situations thrive on much the way one thrives on oxygen. By NOT speaking my truth I become party to things I don't want to be party to. I become complacent and IMHO that has a ripple effect on the Universe.

Silence = Death (on the installment plan).

[apretty]

Medusa, you are fierce as fuck and anyone who's met you for a minute knows it. I only wish that you could deliver your letter in person, with a hip-sway and a hair-flip (cuz you got it like that).

(Authentic-Me says: Letting go is work, sometimes daily, sometimes on the hour and not everyone is in the same *place* -spiritually/emotionally- at the same time (therefore unable to hear uncomfortable stuffs), and in the end your only obligation is that you must be able to answer to *your fine-ass self*.)

[evolveme]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}} You know I love you, darlin, and I admire your mind intensely. I recognize what you want from the thread, and I heard you saying you didn't want this to be personal between you and Kosmo.

I dunno how Kosmo took it, but reading your post, it felt personal to me. Please let me explain why?

You said in the beginning of your post that Kosmo's choice to post confused you. Two things stand out for me. The first is, early in the thread we as a group said Butch/Trans input was welcome, and we engaged in conversations with the Butches and Transmen who posted. The second is, Blush asked Kosmo a direct question; she specifically asked for that post. Wouldn't have ignoring her been a subtle form of silencing her? It would certainly have been utterly rude!

What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I fully admit this is simply how I read it. Maybe I'm the only one who sees it that way, and if so, well, I apologize for derailing the thread.

I just know that I do not live in a vacuum and I cannot be authentically me without deeply examining all the parts of my life.... and half the examining comes from without, from testing my own thoughts, perceptions, and opinions up against those of other people. The people I value the most for that examining are always the people in my own community, whatever their identities might happen to be... I am looking always for the thoughts which shed light on my soul, and I find them as often from Butches and Transmen as from Femmes. I don't wish for any of us to be silenced.

Please know that I understand your goal for the thread is to have a deep conversation among Femmes; I appreciate your willingness to shepherd this convo... but if Butch/Trans voices are not welcome as part of that conversation, then I think we should be really clear and say so outright to everyone, and we should as a group stop inviting their participation.

Bit, first, let me say that Blush asked:

"I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by You I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived."

To me, it appears that she is asking femmes to answer her question, and politely asking Kosmo not to speak to a question s/he could not speak to. I would not go into the Female-id'd Butch Thread and offer my opinion on how they change the way they are perceived, nor a Transfolk thread, etc. and do the same.

Kosmo and I have talked, and I feel that we're good with each other about this. Kosmo's extremely respectful, and only intended to be with her/his post (which I knew). I needed to say what I did, though, not to/at Kosmo necessarily, but at the idea that anyone can answer for us. I see this happening all the time. To allow it without speaking to it just isn't in my makeup.

To this:

"What bothers me now is that to me, personally, it seems like Kosmo has been silenced--and not just Kosmo, but by extension all the Butches/Transmen in this thread. I read all those posts saying "why are we always the ones who are "supportive"? Why can't our partners be supportive?" here is a masculine person being supportive, answering a question asked by someone in the community.... but the response we give is "please don't."

I felt that because a butch person had been the first to answer a question that only we could answer for ourselves, it may have felt silencing to feminine people. I don't buy into a Kumbaya theory of togetherness in which we all have to stand up for one another 100% of the time so that no one's toes get stepped on. I don't wish to step on anyone, don't misread me. But if I'm always protecting someone else's toes, it's likely mine are not going to be well looked after, nor yours. And here, in this thread, I'm lookin' after mine and yours. I named a general atmosphere when I wrote the OP. It's masculine-centric all up in here. I can walk into a thread about the most inane subject and whamo! There it is.

What I need now, is for butches and transmen to listen. And when they do speak, because it is welcome, is for their words to, yes, be supportive. And if I see that a problematic structure exists within those words, one maybe everyone else ain't lookin' at, I'm going to name it. It may not "feel" like my old way of supporting, but it is still a kind of love.

And, Bit, I believe it is a more authentic kind of love.

It is one that says, this is really what I need to hear. I want for my sisters and me to be truly seen. And I promise to return you the favor. Only then, I believe, can we know each other for the people we are, less the roles, minus the expectations. Only then, can we decide whether the support we summarily give is worth something.

:stillheart:

[evolveme]

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.

Dear A,

First of all, being that we are Southern, we manufacture The Best Euphemisms, so you have no business letting yourself go all Virgo. Second of all, if'n it is femme love you need, you clearly came to right space.

And honey, grief and heartache aside, it sounds like you have made the right decision for you. Besides, you're busier than a cat covering crap on a marble floor. You don't have time for anything that sucks your soul.

I love you out-right. :heartbeat:

Julie

[evolveme]

A man who inherited the business from his father employs me. Both are very staunch, conservative republicans with stay home wives and are both the walking, breathing epitome of male privilege. They had never had a woman in power at their company, in its entire 56 year history until I joined them 1.5 years ago. I could tell at the beginning that I would have to stand toe to toe with the elder so as to not be pigeonholed into what I felt his ideas of my role would be. The son, who is my age, has said that I have changed his father’s perceptions of women. Just last week, I was promoted and will be taking over the helm of the business in January. I am not so naïve as to think that I won’t have a struggle ahead of me just because I wasn’t born with a penis.

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

I didn't want to let this one get me by. I have a feeling you're writing from the South, and maybe you're not, and I guess it doesn't matter, because anywhere really, this kind of achievement is still to be considered. Big business or small.

I'm glad you've been able to show them what you have to offer and that what you have to offer has moved the veil of 'But she's a woman' out of the way enough to allow you that promotion. Hot damn and good for you.

I also really liked your self-description. Sounds like they and Jess are all pretty lucky.

[evolveme]

This is braggable, quotable and embroiderable. All of which may be made up words.



Dear June,

We've been saying this in the South for generations. Don't quote me. Quote my mama's mama's mama's mama's mama.

I'm sure her name was Ida Mae. Or maybe Lena Mae. Or possibly Beulah Bernice.

(We also say, "Well knock me down and steal my teeth!" but that just doesn't have the same ring.)

Love,

e

P.S. I was equally enthralled by Isadora's words.

[christie]

I didn't want to let this one get me by. I have a feeling you're writing from the South, and maybe you're not, and I guess it doesn't matter, because anywhere really, this kind of achievement is still to be considered. Big business or small.

I'm glad you've been able to show them what you have to offer and that what you have to offer has moved the veil of 'But she's a woman' out of the way enough to allow you that promotion. Hot damn and good for you.

I also really liked your self-description. Sounds like they and Jess are all pretty lucky.

You were right on the money - Southern, conservative Richmond small business. And thank you for acknowledging the significance. I like to think I am changing minds... one at a time.

I would agree with you that Jess and "the boys" (as I refer to son/dad) are quite lucky to have me... but then that might sound conceited rather than convinced... and I left "convinced" outta the self-descriptor! :giggle:

[christie]

Medusa -

While change is difficult, I have no doubt of your ability to navigate it flawlessly. Tomorrow, I will willingly wear something pink as my lil way of supporting you.

While some might find it a rather trite idea, for those who know that I abhor pink about as much as I do patchouli and Birkenstocks (ya'll can love 'em, I don't have to) and I ONLY wear pink in deference to the Sadistic Bastard's wishes, it is the biggest support I know to offer.

I wish I had such wonderfully wise advice like Isadora. I could only add:

Be kind to yourself.

Blessings,
Christie

[Gemme]

You made me cry. Right here at my desk. In front of everyone. And I dont care who thinks its messy.

Or maybe the situation made me cry. Lemme see what I can muster. (I always want to write "mustard" here because it's funnier but the Virgo in me cringes when I fuck up euphamisms)

Today I am sitting here at my desk at work where I really should be working but I am instead swirling in some heavy emotions and doing a lot of internal processing. I am listening to Angie Aparao on my ipod and he's doing a great cover of "Champagne Supernova" and maybe the pitch of his voice was just right or maybe it's the melody or the words but as I was reading your post, Adele, he sang the line "Where were you while we were getting high?" and he took the last note way, WAY out. The kind of sound where your heart is stretched thin like a piece of pink bubblegum and it feels the emotion of want and need and sound congealed behind notes and pulse.
So I cried. Because I am overwhelmed. Because I am sad. Because I am resolute. Because I am afraid. Because I am no longer afraid.

I have spent most of last night and today writing my resignation letter from a group that I have belonged to for 4 years. A group that has done important work that is specific to my way of being that I have always felt incredibly strongly about supporting. I came to a place at some point in the last several months where I realized that I had to step away. I came to a place over the last couple of weeks where I knew that stepping away would be scary. Over the last couple of days, I realized it would be painful. Over the last several hours I have felt a range of emotions from anger to resolve to sadness to something that feels like mourning.

I have been all at once afraid of the reactions of my fellow committee members and resolute to not care. I have struggled with being authentic and direct without being unecessarily hurtful. I have thought hard about my involvement with the organization and what it will mean to the friendships that exist inside of and outside of that space when I leave. My leaving centers around some ugly stuff. Mostly stuff that is outside of my control. Mostly stuff that is hurtful to the scope of the organization.
I am weary y'all. Weary to the core of my being.
I have for so long operated by trying to be authentic and honest but also on some level ,with a fear of confronting. Its hard. The "good girl" in me who says to "sit down, keep silent, smooth your dress, dont make waves, dont tell what you know" is very much at odds with the spiritual being in me that says "speak your truth, speak it clearly, demand transparency, demand honesty, stand up for truth".
This conflict has created a weird dichotomy in me in the last 2 days. One where I want to just vomit up a bunch of stuff in my resignation letter to show that I am leaving because things got too fucked up for me to be part of. Part of me wants to "go quietly into that good night". Part of me feels that either of these options would not be good. Part of me knows that there will be huge backlash for calling uncomfortable things out and shining a light on ugly truths.

I guess I came to this thread because I have often felt such peace in the arms of other Femmes. Such understanding. Such graceful beauty and love. And I need those things today to help the girl in me who is scared to speak to find her voice. And I needed to remember that I am not a horrible person for seeking the truth. Thank you, Adele.

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.

Would a full length semi trailer (53 feet) be enough courage and support? Cuz I have one of those sitting outside in the neighboring store's parking lot and I happen to know (sorta) how to get around in one of those suckers. It's only "borrowing" if I bring it back, right? :eyebrow:

Though I haven't had the privilege of sharing breathing space with you, over the years I've formed an impression of you that seems to constantly be validated and reaffirmed by those who have met you and who do know you in the flesh and blood. You ARE authentic. You ARE strong. You ARE a good girl, except when you're not.

Your role in the existence of this very place provides visible evidence of your strength, fortitude, honor, courage and the vast expanse of your very soul, which reaches out to each and every one of us on a daily basis.

Kids say the darndest things and my gran credited me with saying something that I have no memory of saying but I remember her and gramps making references to it from time to time. She told me we were sitting on her back porch and she and my grandfather were upset about something and he was being gruff and started to well up. He turned to go inside before "us girls" could see him cry, muttering something about not being weak. I grabbed his hand and tugged at it until he hunkered down to my level. She said I placed my hands on his cheeks, looked him right in the eye and told him that a dam that allows some water to pass through without crumbling has to be stronger than one that cannot. It just HAD to be.

Okay, so it's a little kooky, but I think it's important to allow things, feelings, people to flow through and out of us. Every experience we have makes us stronger, better versions of ourselves. So this too, shall pass, and in the end, you will be stronger and better for it.

Much luck and love to you, Medusa.

[SassyLeo]

*snip*

I guess I came to this thread because I have often felt such peace in the arms of other Femmes. Such understanding. Such graceful beauty and love. And I need those things today to help the girl in me who is scared to speak to find her voice. And I needed to remember that I am not a horrible person for seeking the truth. Thank you, Adele.

I will be creating a new journey for myself by leaving this organization and speaking out. There will be broken friendships and pain and I dont want to be silent out of fear anymore. I am asking for some love here. Its often been hard for me to ask for help when I need it. So, this is me, asking you, my Femme sisters, to send me some courage.

This might be out of place here. I apologize for taking up space if it is.

Much love.

It is a testament to this group, these humans, these femmes, that you felt comfortable enough to come to this space to speak your thoughts, cry, unload, let go... I think that is the best gift anyone could receive, a safe space to be held in whatever way one needs. I think folks here are more than happy to do that :bouquet:

To Angie, from the other Angie :balloon: :stillheart: (who does some more of that heart stretching):

YouTube- Angie Aparo - "I'll Be There" - Live at Room 5 Lounge

[Arwen]

(Authentic-Me says: Letting go is work, sometimes daily, sometimes on the hour and not everyone is in the same *place* -spiritually/emotionally- at the same time (therefore unable to hear uncomfortable stuffs), and in the end your only obligation is that you must be able to answer to *your fine-ass self*.)


I just needed you to know that this spoke to me on a very very personal level. You meant it for that fine Arkansas woman, but I'm taking it for myself as well. It may end up as the leaping off point of a blog entry--it gave me that much to think about.

Especially the bit bout others not being in the same *place*.

Valuable words. Gold, even. Thank you.

[Bit]

Bit, first, let me say that Blush asked:

"I'd be interested to hear from y'all what YOU(and by You I mean all y'all, not YOU personally, Kosmo) can do to change how we are perceived."

To me, it appears that she is asking femmes to answer her question, and politely asking Kosmo not to speak to a question s/he could not speak to.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{e}}}}}}}}}}}

And there ya have it. Neither of us could see who Blush was looking at when she expanded on that request; you assumed she was "looking around the room" at all the Femmes and asking Kosmo to be quiet; I assumed she was "looking around the room" and inviting participation not just from Kosmo, but from all the Butches and Transmen in the room--expanding her request, not limiting it.

Only Blush can say what she really meant. Again, if I am the only one who read her post that way, I apologize for derailing.

I hope that you can see that I was telling you, not what Kosmo feels--I don't have that right--but how the wording of your post made ME feel, and how it came across to me, a person who has been repeatedly silenced in discussions very much like this one.

I also hope that you will keep it in the forefront that I appreciate what you are doing in the creation and shepherding of this conversation, and I stand beside you in your goals for it. I just want it to be very clear who is and isn't welcome to post and to answer direct questions.

I fully admit that is my own issue. I. Hate. Conflict. This is NOT a "Good Girl" issue, nor any kind of socialization issue. It is because I am Empathic, which is a psychic skill; I cannot bear to watch people inflict pain on one another because *I* feel it every time. This is my issue; I own it. All I ask from you to help me stay in the conversation is clarity--which you have now given, thank you--about who is welcome to give opinions in the thread.

[KayCee]

I am a strong, independent, intelligent, feminine, imperfectly perfect, simply complex, female entity. My relationship does not define me. My partnering with a beautifully exquisite masculine female does not define me. Demanding that my voice be heard does not make me less feminine. It does not make me more masculine. Running the world and being Queen of all I see doesn’t make me less feminine or more masculine. It just makes me intelligently strong. It’s just me.

For me, it’s not about letting the world chose my role within it… It’s about me choosing how I am viewed in the world.

Christie

EXACTLY!..

[christie]

Medusa -

While change is difficult, I have no doubt of your ability to navigate it flawlessly. Tomorrow, I will willingly wear something pink as my lil way of supporting you.

While some might find it a rather trite idea, for those who know that I abhor pink about as much as I do patchouli and Birkenstocks (ya'll can love 'em, I don't have to) and I ONLY wear pink in deference to the Sadistic Bastard's wishes, it is the biggest support I know to offer.

I wish I had such wonderfully wise advice like Isadora. I could only add:

Be kind to yourself.

Blessings,
Christie

Pink socks with lil cherries on them.... check...

Pink scarf.... check...

:danceparty: