The Ultimate Backpack: Unpacking your own Male Privilege

[Linus]

One of the side effects (undesired by me, at least) was crown of male privilege and specifically, white male privilege. I never really realized the impact of it until I began passing more regularly and noticed how people changed how they responded to me.

In my day-to-day life, people are more friendly and courteous when I meet them in person and for interactions. People ask me for my opinion and listen to what I say with little interruption. I've even once been put to the front of a line and declined this because other people were in front of me (most were older women who had a fair amount of groceries and looked exhausted -- I figured I had time to wait while they probably wanted to just go). Sometimes it's little things that happen that I realize I never would have seen before (e.g., preferential treatment in a restaurant or complete agreement with a complaint).

Before, no one had noticed me and was oblivious to who I was unless it was a computer and/or network issue. Then I was abrupt and abrasive. It's interesting to see how comments have slightly changed. Instead of just being a "good" instructor I'm the "best instructor they've ever had in IT training in their 30+ years.." My knowledge and teaching manner hasn't really changed (I upgrade my knowledge regularly and always have) but people read me different than previously, which I find interesting and disturbing at times.

I've also had the negative response where it's assumed that I have no clue what women go through and what's it's like to be a woman. That I have no idea what it's like to be more emotional at certain times of the month and really don't need to be put down during that time as well as being forced into a specific role and image of woman. *chuckles* I think that one in particular I do understand. Part of me wants to speak up about that (I do embrace my past as part of me and recognize it's importance at getting me to this point of my life in one piece) but I try to step back and not interject my voice in where it really doesn't belong or welcomed (I sometimes can't help myself but I am trying to step out and just listen rather than want to be always heard).


For those that wonder, male privilege (particularly white male privilege) could be defined as:

1. That your opinion/voice is more valued over a female and/or POC opinion/voice. (note: a good obvious example is politicians and who the media goes to for the sound bite on a policy piece more often than not).

2. You and a female friend are talking to another male and the other male always directs responses to you even if your female friend asks.

3. You get treated different or better than women and/or POC.

4. You never get challenged on who you are or whether your ID is correct (e.g., passports, TSA security checks at airports, paying with credit card)

5. You get a better credit rating, better credit limits, etc. Financial institutions respect any decision you make and don't try to necessarily up sell you or question your choices.

6. You get more pay or an increase in pay; more job opportunities (this would only come into play if you do not disclose your trans identity).

7. You feel you are "owed" something in society. Our society, built by white wealthy men, is built on hierarchy (whether we want to believe this or not).

There's more, I know there is. My brain is feeling a bit fuzzy today so I apologize for not having all of them up. If you want to add more that I have missed, let me know.

Anyways, that said, I'm curious as to what other transmen or male-identified butches (who are read as male and seen as "men") are doing to address their own male-privilege and break down the hierarchy to level things out more. Have you had moments where that little light bulb went off and you realized that it was male privilege that was getting you such-and-such in life? Have you addressed your own misogyny? (misogyny, as definition, is the hatred of all things "female" -- an interesting challenge for transguys, I think) What about addressing patriarchy in your roles? (that is, you see yourself as leader and your female counterpart is subservient to you in some fashion or another).

While the thread is open to all, I'd rather to see transguys and male-identified butches participate. This isn't a thread to bash either for who they are or what they are not. The idea is to have a frank and open discussion about an issue that I believe is an important issue to discuss (the irony is not lost on me here), breakdown and come to terms with so that it can be dismantled at some point from society.

All I ask is that people be respectful in their discussions/ideas/opinions. Remember to discuss the issue and not go after the person. You can always step back and come back (step up, step down).

[Bob]

Possibly (un)related: "Why James Chartrand Wears Women's Underpants" - http://www.copyblogger.com/james-chartrand-underpants/

It touches on some of the issues Linus raises, although in a different (non-trans) context.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Linus,

In my view, I have had a bit of both thrown my way. For example, when in the glbt community I am who I am. However, in the straight community I feel the need to constantly have to tell ppl gently that my name is Andrew. Sometimes ppl are rude and nasty trying to be just that. On the other side of the coin, sometimes they mean no harm.

All of my doctors call me Andrew. All of the important people in my life call me Andrew. And I expect that. It is respect.

In the Jewish faith, men hold the main tradition as being head of the household. It is expected that they work, bring home the money to support their family, and carry on all business of life & living. Women are really 2nd class citizens (Hysidic - spelling?). Now, you have known me, and Rosie and see our struggles. I don't work. I have to rely and depend on others for survival. Without that help, I don't survive. That is how it is.

As for flying...that is another story. I hate to fly. I am always, forever, and a day the one that is pulled aside, and practically have to undress for everyone and be wanded down. I still don't get it. Rosie takes on the role of taking on all the carry-on's, and handling the luggage, but I still get pulled over. Go figure.

I think if there was a more easier way to have your gender and name change be done, then we should be able to do it. I just think it is wrong on so many levels that every state is different in how this is processed. I really am liking the idea of a one card for everyone, including passport. That makes sense to me.

Straight white men have always been given the leaway in society. It makes me think that everyone else is discriminated against.

Great thread!

Love,
Andrew

[atomiczombie]

I don't know white male privilege.....yet. I haven't started T yet, but will be in the next few weeks. I am still treated like a second class citizen. Yes, I know a lot of things about being a woman. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of male violence against women. I know what it is like to be seen purely as a sexual object by men. I know what it is like to be dismissed when expressing my ideas. I know what it is like to have a period too lol. I know what it is like for a woman to be raped by a man. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of misogyny. I know all of these things and more, first hand.

I see misogyny directed at women and I cringe. I grew up seeing my mom be treated like shit by her boss for years. She has been sexually harassed on the job, treated like a dog, and come home from work crying on many occasions. She felt that she needed the job and couldn't quit, and felt trapped. It made me sick.

I am keenly aware of misogyny, and I hate it. I try so hard not to be a perpetrator, to show respect and kindness to all women. I know that a lot of femmes on this site feel the sting of misogyny from certain butches and transguys, and that blows me away. I don't understand how someone who grew up as a girl could forget what that is like and treat a woman so cruelly. It disgusts me, really it does.

As for male privilege, I anticipate it happening to me, and I already feel guilt about it, though I have not experienced it yet. Is that crazy or what? I fear the privilege. I don't want it. I fear it will change me and make me an asshole, make me expect and take advantage of it. I don't want that. I also fear that once I have it, that others in the community will see me as the enemy; that girls in particular will assume I am a misogynist pig and mistrust me. Being a male ID'd transguy, I already feel that mistrust here on this site. It saddens me greatly. I am not one of those misogynist boneheads, but I feel the burden they create nonetheless. I do not blame femmes for this, don't get me wrong. I blame the misogynist boneheads who treat femmes like second class citizens, who see them as less than, who treat them as an accessory and not as an equal, who don't really see and respect them for all the wonderful things that they are.

I don't know. *sigh* This whole privilege thing has me sad and feeling like my impending integration with my mind and body, my transition, isn't something to celebrate and feel good about. I feel glum to be honest. I don't want the privilege. I know I will do my best to be out about my trans status as much as I can after transition. I really don't know what else to say at this point.

[little man]

glad you started this thread, linus.

yessir, i've got the privilege. i haven't developed the sense of entitlement yet, though. at least i don't think i have.

i'm about 6.5 yrs into transition. has my life changed? boy howdy. on the one hand, i do feel badly about having all this crap just handed to me. on the other hand, it sure is a nice break from the "good ol' days". i try to temper the perks by making room for my female counterparts to be heard, to be seen, to be recognized. i call bullshit when i see it and i talk, talk, talk about things people say about women, ways they treat women, etc. i don't know that i've changed any minds, but i'm pretty sure i've planted a seed or two (i do these things around race, too).

i really don't know how to go about dismantling the privilege. i do try to be vigilant about not taking up more than my fair share of space and making sure the powers that be hear about the capabilities of my female counterparts.

mostly, i try to be a good man. i try to set the bar a little higher for what a man can and should be. a female coworker told me not long ago that she enjoys talking to me because i understand a lot of things and am willing to discuss emotional stuff. and everything is not about my dick or getting laid. i took that to mean i'm doing something right. i'm definitely doing something outside the normal experiences of her waking world.

i don't think there is a way to give back the privilege we gain. i do think there are ways to share it and have the platform to advance others. perhaps the answer lies in using it for the betterment of all, rather than getting myself or the other ol' boys further along.

[Queerasfck]

and everything is not about my dick or getting laid.


O snap! It's not? There's my mistake...............

[Mister Bent]

O snap! It's not? There's my mistake...............

Tell that to this guy...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a293/mrbent/bfd/sock-monkey-penis.jpg

[theoddz]

Interesting that this topic should come up, because I was just discussing this with my coworker yesterday. I had been kind of "thinking aloud" in the office between rounds while we were sitting on our collective arses (ya, we do that..sometimes a LOT). :twitch:

I'm still not totally used to, nor comfortable with receiving the benefits of male privilege in my world. I guess I spent too many years in a female skin, looking from the outside in, into an body and a world that I felt I should had and should have been part of, from the time I drew my first breaths. I've never forgotten, nor do I ever want to, the feeling that I had to justify my opinions, my actions, my professionalism, whathaveyou...because of the body I was born in to. Looking at it now, I can see the behaviors that cause feelings of being "second class" and it causes a sinking, sickening feeling in my gut. If I don't like that feeling, and I certainly don't....why would anyone else??

In my life, I have known and had, as role models, so many fierce, strong, loving members of the female gender. These women certainly had no reason whatsoever to play second fiddle to anyone. My mother who, born in 1922, was so much NOT a woman of her time, has always seemed to harbor such resentment that she was denied so much for no other reason other than her femaleness. When she was a young woman, working at Shaffer Pen Co., women kept their employment until 6 months after they were married...then Shaffer let them go. Like Mother's mother before, Mother has always had a very thinly veiled deep resentment of men while, at the same time, they both dutifully followed their own generational teachings of "how to be a woman and graciously and willingly let men come first". I hate that, yet I love my mother and the way she raised me to never take second best, not even to men, even though that was the way she was raised. It's this very teaching, and yes, she taught my sister and I what she was taught, but yet she also taught us how to be strong and how to survive life's struggles and still come out on top, or at least "okay". She taught us, the best she could, how to come into our own, no matter what.....and not be ashamed or apologetic for it. Mother was ahead of her time and had 2 unsuccessful marriages to prove it.

I have both sides of this. Transition has caused me to take a good look at all of this. I can't change what I've lived, nor can I change the lessons of growing up as I did. I can grieve the (lost/denied) boyhood and yet journey into manhood the best way I can, trying to reconcile the resentment with the newfound "privilege", but I never, ever want to forget just who I am. This has been not what I'd call "hard" to do, but it has presented with its own strange and sometimes very uncomfortable conundrums along the way. I want to keep that part of me that will always and forever be "my mother's daughter", in all that strength and perseverance, but I also need to be the man I am, too. I need to keep that in-between, yet righteous perspective and try to stay aware of my own perspective and not just blindly follow and fall in line with the bad side of societal pressures. I think that if I can graciously carry and balance what I have learned with what I have been taught, then I can be a good ally....and a better man. I need to combine listening to my sisters' voices with the charge of my own manhood. Share limelight, instead of just taking it. Does that make sense??

I think there is a gracious way of handling privilege. You share it by shifting it over to others, and that's what I do in my job and whenever/wherever I can. I have found that, especially when I'm around other (cis) men, this is something that's not easy to do, because most guys seem to always be clamoring for their own masculinity amongst other males, and this is even more true for us men who have had to transition and find our own place amongst our (cis) brothers. But, when a question is aimed at me, whether or not I recognize it or not as being due to my maleness, I defer to my female colleagues (in the work environment, for example) and get them to offer their input. I try to make it a point to actively insert them and take the focus of "unique male credibility" off of myself. When there have been other (cis) males around, I seem to always get those looks that seem to convey both disbelief and a bit of anger/betrayal that a fellow male would defer to the females. So there's peer pressure to exclude, too. I think that tearing down privilege is a lot about sharing empowerment. It's about public rejection, in a lot of ways, I think. If you refuse to take it for your own....if you have the guts to turn it down...then you can dismantle it, chunk by chunk. I just think that that is sometimes hard for the average person to do because, by nature, many of us are so self-focused. As transmen/FtMs, we're just not used to having it, and when it is finally granted to us and we're accepted into "The Boys' Club", it's like having walked through a desert and finally being offered a drink of water. We're there. We've arrived. We're finally accepted.....and we'll do anything it takes to keep it that way, even if it's wrong and keeping it means that we have to keep up status quo at the expense of those who are still being denied.

Thanks for this thread. I think this needs to be discussed.

Respectfully,
~Theo~ :bunchflowers:

[Linus]

I wanted to keep all the posts in but ran into character limits for this reply.

Possibly (un)related: "Why James Chartrand Wears Women's Underpants" - http://www.copyblogger.com/james-chartrand-underpants/

It touches on some of the issues Linus raises, although in a different (non-trans) context.

That was really interesting. I think the most telling was this:

Why should it matter to me that you’re a woman? But it does – I’m amazed at my hidden sexism. Not in a ‘I’m never going to read her writing again’ – more that it changes the way I read it.
And not in a bad way, but it *shouldn’t* make *any* difference.
The fact that he is now going to read her differently now that she was forced to out her story surprises me. The fact that he recognized his own "hidden sexism" was good but that he's letting that decide how he perceives her is unfortunate. I think her story showed how even Online, often viewed as a gender neutral area, isn't that at all. And that even there more credence is given to men/masculine appearing individuals than to women (see technology discussions for further proof of this -- in another life, I faced this openly on one dramatic occasion but may have also faced it unknowingly since then). I recently taught a new course (last week) and was unsure of my ability to get the point across to the students. I suspect if I was still female-identified it would have been mentioned but since I come across as male (obviously white given the french name) I got huge kudos for a great class.

It's interesting that Online Interactions carry the misogyny, sexism, etc. just as much as it does in person. It's interesting that when I went to look at the B-F definition in Wikipedia for femme, it was defined by the perceived "masculine" attribute in relation to butch. (that is, it defined a butch and said that a femme was the opposite but didn't identify femme independent of butch). Why? Why do we insist on defining women in reference to men? Why can we not define them separate? IT is particularly conservative for this, unfortunately. We hear of the guys -- Gates, Torvalds, Wozniak, Jobs -- and maybe hear about Ada. But what of the other women who make up IT? Why aren't their histories more apparent? Like the founder of my company -- Diane Greene -- who is amazing creatively and person-wise. It gets back, I suspect, (as Theo mentions low) into the competition-aspect of things. If women are competitive, they are viewed as "bitches" rather than meeting men at the same level of competition.


Linus,

<snipped for brevity>

In the Jewish faith, men hold the main tradition as being head of the household. It is expected that they work, bring home the money to support their family, and carry on all business of life & living. Women are really 2nd class citizens (Hysidic - spelling?). Now, you have known me, and Rosie and see our struggles. I don't work. I have to rely and depend on others for survival. Without that help, I don't survive. That is how it is.

That same treatment of husband being breadwinner and wife look after the house and being 2nd class citizens also happens in Christian households. I don't think it's religious specific as much as it's a learned behavior from previous experiences (e.g., if both partners experienced a house that matched the Cleavers, then they'll want to continue it).

As for flying...that is another story. I hate to fly. I am always, forever, and a day the one that is pulled aside, and practically have to undress for everyone and be wanded down. I still don't get it. Rosie takes on the role of taking on all the carry-on's, and handling the luggage, but I still get pulled over. Go figure.

I think if there was a more easier way to have your gender and name change be done, then we should be able to do it. I just think it is wrong on so many levels that every state is different in how this is processed. I really am liking the idea of a one card for everyone, including passport. That makes sense to me.

Straight white men have always been given the leaway in society. It makes me think that everyone else is discriminated against.

Great thread!

Love,
AndrewThe part I bolded is exactly what white male privilege is. It is what I (and apparently a few others here) do not want but will be given whether we want it or not. I personally want to go kicking and screaming into this process and continue working at breaking it down. I suspect it's used against you since, for some, you do not fit the perfect, neat image of WMP (White Male Privilege)

I don't know white male privilege.....yet. I haven't started T yet, but will be in the next few weeks. I am still treated like a second class citizen. Yes, I know a lot of things about being a woman. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of male violence against women. I know what it is like to be seen purely as a sexual object by men. I know what it is like to be dismissed when expressing my ideas. I know what it is like to have a period too lol. I know what it is like for a woman to be raped by a man. I know what it is like to be on the receiving end of misogyny. I know all of these things and more, first hand.

I see misogyny directed at women and I cringe. I grew up seeing my mom be treated like shit by her boss for years. She has been sexually harassed on the job, treated like a dog, and come home from work crying on many occasions. She felt that she needed the job and couldn't quit, and felt trapped. It made me sick.

I am keenly aware of misogyny, and I hate it. I try so hard not to be a perpetrator, to show respect and kindness to all women. I know that a lot of femmes on this site feel the sting of misogyny from certain butches and transguys, and that blows me away. I don't understand how someone who grew up as a girl could forget what that is like and treat a woman so cruelly. It disgusts me, really it does.

If I may interject here -- and I will preface this that this doesn't necessarily make it so for all trans men -- , for some transmen, they hate their past and once it's gone, they ignore it. They do not want to remember it nor be reminded of it. We have to remember that each person (trans, cis, straight, queer, <insert identifying label here>, etc.) all have different experiences and see things differently. Some are so misogynist, and this is entirely my opinion of it, that they hated the women/female parts of themselves. They were, in effect (and against, IMO), misogynist to themselves for the longest time and remain so. So, to answer your question, it's probably easy for them because of that self-hatred of who they were.

As for male privilege, I anticipate it happening to me, and I already feel guilt about it, though I have not experienced it yet. Is that crazy or what? I fear the privilege. I don't want it. I fear it will change me and make me an asshole, make me expect and take advantage of it. I don't want that. I also fear that once I have it, that others in the community will see me as the enemy; that girls in particular will assume I am a misogynist pig and mistrust me. Being a male ID'd transguy, I already feel that mistrust here on this site. It saddens me greatly. I am not one of those misogynist boneheads, but I feel the burden they create nonetheless. I do not blame femmes for this, don't get me wrong. I blame the misogynist boneheads who treat femmes like second class citizens, who see them as less than, who treat them as an accessory and not as an equal, who don't really see and respect them for all the wonderful things that they are.

I don't know. *sigh* This whole privilege thing has me sad and feeling like my impending integration with my mind and body, my transition, isn't something to celebrate and feel good about. I feel glum to be honest. I don't want the privilege. I know I will do my best to be out about my trans status as much as I can after transition. I really don't know what else to say at this point.It's not crazy. I actually went through the same thing and had discussions with K about this. Sometimes WMP will be assigned and you'll be given it whether you realize it or not. Everything I do, every reaction someone has when I teach, when I talk with people, I ask: did they react to me in that way because of WMP or because of me the person? Are they that way with all people, male, female, whatever? I think being hyper-aware and vigilant helps a lot. Questioning certainly does. There are no easy answers to this. All you can do is be a "man of integrity" and stand up when you see misogyny or other forms of WMP in action.

glad you started this thread, linus.

yessir, i've got the privilege. i haven't developed the sense of entitlement yet, though. at least i don't think i have.

i'm about 6.5 yrs into transition. has my life changed? boy howdy. on the one hand, i do feel badly about having all this crap just handed to me. on the other hand, it sure is a nice break from the "good ol' days". i try to temper the perks by making room for my female counterparts to be heard, to be seen, to be recognized. i call bullshit when i see it and i talk, talk, talk about things people say about women, ways they treat women, etc. i don't know that i've changed any minds, but i'm pretty sure i've planted a seed or two (i do these things around race, too).

i really don't know how to go about dismantling the privilege. i do try to be vigilant about not taking up more than my fair share of space and making sure the powers that be hear about the capabilities of my female counterparts.

mostly, i try to be a good man. i try to set the bar a little higher for what a man can and should be. a female coworker told me not long ago that she enjoys talking to me because i understand a lot of things and am willing to discuss emotional stuff. and everything is not about my dick or getting laid. i took that to mean i'm doing something right. i'm definitely doing something outside the normal experiences of her waking world.

i don't think there is a way to give back the privilege we gain. i do think there are ways to share it and have the platform to advance others. perhaps the answer lies in using it for the betterment of all, rather than getting myself or the other ol' boys further along.

Hrmm.. I think I disagree with the idea that privilege cannot be returned. I think that if we remove it from ourselves and open the place up for someone else to have it, it helps. (and that someone else has to be someone who is normally robbed of a chance because they do not have WMP). It does mean giving up something -- and it may be a painful something but maybe it is time to start.

Interesting that this topic should come up, because I was just discussing this with my coworker yesterday. I had been kind of "thinking aloud" in the office between rounds while we were sitting on our collective arses (ya, we do that..sometimes a LOT).

I'm still not totally used to, nor comfortable with receiving the benefits of male privilege in my world. I guess I spent too many years in a female skin, looking from the outside in, into an body and a world that I felt I should had and should have been part of, from the time I drew my first breaths. I've never forgotten, nor do I ever want to, the feeling that I had to justify my opinions, my actions, my professionalism, whathaveyou...because of the body I was born in to. Looking at it now, I can see the behaviors that cause feelings of being "second class" and it causes a sinking, sickening feeling in my gut. If I don't like that feeling, and I certainly don't....why would anyone else??

I think this highlights the difference between those who were born into WMP from the start and know nothing different from those who embrace that part of their past (particularly those transmen who do that -- again, IMO) and reject WMP as the modus operandi.

<snip for brevity>

I need to combine listening to my sisters' voices with the charge of my own manhood. Share limelight, instead of just taking it. Does that make sense??

I think there is a gracious way of handling privilege. You share it by shifting it over to others, and that's what I do in my job and whenever/wherever I can. I have found that, especially when I'm around other (cis) men, this is something that's not easy to do, because most guys seem to always be clamoring for their own masculinity amongst other males, and this is even more true for us men who have had to transition and find our own place amongst our (cis) brothers. But, when a question is aimed at me, whether or not I recognize it or not as being due to my maleness, I defer to my female colleagues (in the work environment, for example) and get them to offer their input. I try to make it a point to actively insert them and take the focus of "unique male credibility" off of myself. When there have been other (cis) males around, I seem to always get those looks that seem to convey both disbelief and a bit of anger/betrayal that a fellow male would defer to the females. So there's peer pressure to exclude, too. I think that tearing down privilege is a lot about sharing empowerment. It's about public rejection, in a lot of ways, I think. If you refuse to take it for your own....if you have the guts to turn it down...then you can dismantle it, chunk by chunk. I just think that that is sometimes hard for the average person to do because, by nature, many of us are so self-focused. As transmen/FtMs, we're just not used to having it, and when it is finally granted to us and we're accepted into "The Boys' Club", it's like having walked through a desert and finally being offered a drink of water. We're there. We've arrived. We're finally accepted.....and we'll do anything it takes to keep it that way, even if it's wrong and keeping it means that we have to keep up status quo at the expense of those who are still being denied.

Thanks for this thread. I think this needs to be discussed.

Respectfully,
~Theo~ I do agree that it needs to be dismantled, chunk by chunk. But I do also suspect that for some transmen it is the oasis in a desert of misunderstanding of their life. And when they feel like they have found a place to belong, they want to stay there and fight. You are correct at that. There are times when I feel like that (e.g., cigar events -- very male privileged but not as white as historically it has been).


I do want to thank everyone who is participating as both posters and readers. I think a lot more discussion has to be done for both the in person and online venues to help dismantle this in the long run, long term. I know that I will be long gone well before it's resolved.. But I don't want to wait until then before trying to start this in life.

[Selenay]

Some links that may be interesting for those participating in this discussion:

Stick figures, and stick figures who parent (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/05/18/stick-figures-and-stick-figures-who-parent/)


Default avatars: a collection (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/05/04/default-avatars-a-collection/)


Dockers defines manhood as anti-everything except dirt and patriarchy (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/12/07/dockers-defines-manhood-as-anti-everything-except-dirt-and-patriarchy/)


Semenya's makeover: gender as performance (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/09/12/semenyas-makeover-gender-as-performance/)

[Linus]

Some links that may be interesting for those participating in this discussion:

Stick figures, and stick figures who parent (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/05/18/stick-figures-and-stick-figures-who-parent/)


Default avatars: a collection (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/05/04/default-avatars-a-collection/)


Dockers defines manhood as anti-everything except dirt and patriarchy (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/12/07/dockers-defines-manhood-as-anti-everything-except-dirt-and-patriarchy/)


Semenya's makeover: gender as performance (http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/09/12/semenyas-makeover-gender-as-performance/)


Awesome links, Selenay. It definitely highlights the over-abundance of attention towards the male purchaser or male person in advertising or signage. Perpetuating the image that woman equals housewife or parent continues a misogynist skew in advertising. I remember a guy I knew who took offense at a commercial that showed the woman smarter than the guy and showed him as being rather dumbfounded about something. He fault that no one should be shown as smarter than the other. And yet, when the reverse was displayed (often showing a woman unable to make a decision or otherwise downplayed in some fashion) he didn't voice this as vehemently.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2009/10/25/13729/114 <--- someone also sent me this. It's interesting that in this form of insurance (at least in Colorado) woman are forced to pay more while car insurance has men pay more (although it is, in part, due to statistics showing that men -- particularly younger ones -- are more likely to cause accidents and get speeding tickets). Gender-rating is actually banned in a few states but only a few. (11 in total). This idea that women go more often may be true (men are often told to suck it up and "be a man"), it doesn't mean that they should pay 50% more or be denied health care because of a previous condition like domestic violence (uh... HELLO?!).

[little man]

snipped, as this is the response i'm interested in....

Hrmm.. I think I disagree with the idea that privilege cannot be returned. I think that if we remove it from ourselves and open the place up for someone else to have it, it helps. (and that someone else has to be someone who is normally robbed of a chance because they do not have WMP). It does mean giving up something -- and it may be a painful something but maybe it is time to start.




linus, i'd be interested in hearing how it is we can return privilege. this has troubled me for some time now and i've not been able to figure out how to give it back, or not take it at all. i have tried to use the privilege i get to help others, but haven't noodled out a way to give it back. could you elaborate on this, please?

i'm also curious about the "painful something" to give up.

thanks

[Linus]

snipped, as this is the response i'm interested in....


linus, i'd be interested in hearing how it is we can return privilege. this has troubled me for some time now and i've not been able to figure out how to give it back, or not take it at all. i have tried to use the privilege i get to help others, but haven't noodled out a way to give it back. could you elaborate on this, please?

i'm also curious about the "painful something" to give up.

thanks

Well, the painful will depend on your point of view. Imagine you apply for a job to do magic widgets and you are doing a group interview. You are excited about this because you've been out of work for over a year, are about to be evicted and this job could help put you back on track for life. In addition to you being interviewed, there is also a MOC, a WOC and a white woman. All four of you are up for this job. You are being interviewed by the CEO and Board of Directors, all white males. As you go through the interview, you slowly realize that you aren't really qualified for it and that the others are more qualified, particularly the POC woman.

But at the end of the interview the interviewers have decided and they offer the job to you. It pays $100,000 and you only work 8 hours a week. Do you take it, knowing that the only reason you got it was due to do WMP, or do you turn it down and strongly recommend that they hire the WOC? It would be painful to turn down and potentially damaging to your pride to turn this down but it is the right thing to do. Additionally, it would also be the right thing to point out that they really should hire WOC and that if they do not, that you will file a complaint about their discriminatory behaviour. You choose to do this path even knowing that you'll be on the street shortly. But further to this you continue to work towards ensure that the magic widget industry never continues this behaviour. It results in CEOs and BoD compositions change to represent more of a cross-section of the US rather than the "good ol' boys" club. Further, you ensure that a law is passed that enforces a moratorium on the hiring of white males. It, in facts, says that you must hire a POC period, regardless of anything else.

Although extreme in the example, the end result would be effectively removing the WMP and tilting the balance towards others. Does that help?



For reference:

WMP - White Male Privilege
MOC - Man of Color
WOC - Woman of Color
POC - Person of Color

[little man]

Well, the painful will depend on your point of view. Imagine you apply for a job to do magic widgets and you are doing a group interview. You are excited about this because you've been out of work for over a year, are about to be evicted and this job could help put you back on track for life. In addition to you being interviewed, there is also a MOC, a WOC and a white woman. All four of you are up for this job. You are being interviewed by the CEO and Board of Directors, all white males. As you go through the interview, you slowly realize that you aren't really qualified for it and that the others are more qualified, particularly the POC woman.

But at the end of the interview the interviewers have decided and they offer the job to you. It pays $100,000 and you only work 8 hours a week. Do you take it, knowing that the only reason you got it was due to do WMP, or do you turn it down and strongly recommend that they hire the WOC? It would be painful to turn down and potentially damaging to your pride to turn this down but it is the right thing to do. Additionally, it would also be the right thing to point out that they really should hire WOC and that if they do not, that you will file a complaint about their discriminatory behaviour. You choose to do this path even knowing that you'll be on the street shortly. But further to this you continue to work towards ensure that the magic widget industry never continues this behaviour. It results in CEOs and BoD compositions change to represent more of a cross-section of the US rather than the "good ol' boys" club. Further, you ensure that a law is passed that enforces a moratorium on the hiring of white males. It, in facts, says that you must hire a POC period, regardless of anything else.

Although extreme in the example, the end result would be effectively removing the WMP and tilting the balance towards others. Does that help?



For reference:

WMP - White Male Privilege
MOC - Man of Color
WOC - Woman of Color
POC - Person of Color

in theory, yes, i understand. i was looking for a more realistic example, though. can you give me something that's a little closer to real life? i realize it's going to be more mundane that 100K for 8 hrs of work, but i'm looking for a starting point to work from.

as a side note, your example brings to mind some class issues. i also wonder if it is necessary to do oneself harm to help others? i'm not far enough into my coffee this morning to be more coherent. i can take another run at this later in the day, when the synapses are firing more efficiently, if that helps.

ETA: lest i sound unwilling to help affect change, i want to say that i don't mind making sacrifices or doing with less. i'm accustomed to that. and i'm willing to help pretty much anyone i can. i don't know if i would accept a job i'm not qualified for...i dislike personal failure quite a bit. am i willing to give up my seat at the table so someone else can eat? you bet. am i willing to starve myself to death? i dunno about that.

[Bob]

as a side note, your example brings to mind some class issues. i also wonder if it is necessary to do oneself harm to help others?

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

[Linus]

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

That wasn't the intent or meaning of it. If that is how it appeared, then I apologize for a poor example. The intent and idea behind the example was more that a person should be chosen on ability and not because they are one of the good ol' boys. It's not to say that the WOC wouldn't be able to speak up or stand up for herself. If I said that the white male was told of the job offer after others left, then no one else would have been aware. In that instance, the offer is made based entirely on WMP and the rejection the offer is/would be a rejection of WMP.


little man: haven't forgotten your request. Just trying to see if I can think of a better example.

[evolveme]

am i willing to give up my seat at the table so someone else can eat? you bet. am i willing to starve myself to death? i dunno about that.

Thank you, as ever, for your thoughtfulness as much as your sincerity, Wil.

What troubles me in your scenario, Linus, is that, were I the woman on the receiving end of this "giving back privilege" exercise (and as a woman, I might be), it would be important to me that any "privilege" handed down to me were wiped clean of well, privilege. It could only and necessarily be about merit in order that I feel you were honest in your efforts to level the field. I don't want your hand out. Nor do I want you doing a personal disservice to yourself in order that I might get what is rightfully mine. Stop agreeing to lie down in puddles so that my feet stay dry. I don't need a white knight. What I need is for you to speak frankly about systems of inequality when you see them, and to engage in right action when you find yourself working from within those systems by joining your voice with my voice whenever and however you can.

Well, and that's a good point. I'm inclined to find Linus' example of 'giving back privilege' a tad on the "Here I come to save the day for you, poor lil women of color!" side of the spectrum. Patronizing and condescending.

Case in point.

[evolveme]

That wasn't the intent or meaning of it. If that is how it appeared, then I apologize for a poor example. The intent and idea behind the example was more that a person should be chosen on ability and not because they are one of the good ol' boys. It's not to say that the WOC wouldn't be able to speak up or stand up for herself. If I said that the white male was told of the job offer after others left, then no one else would have been aware. In that instance, the offer is made based entirely on WMP and the rejection the offer is/would be a rejection of WMP.


little man: haven't forgotten your request. Just trying to see if I can think of a better example.

I understand your intention wasn't to be demeaning in this way - that it is only positive. The intention of Affirmative Action was a positive one, as well, and in all the ways that it did and does work, it's still good, but a lot of people it is meant to serve come away with a very negative feeling. They do not ever wish to be seen as having merely been hired to meet a quota. Privileged groups and racist others will believe this is why, no matter what.

It feels good to say, "No, you accept the position because you are more qualified," but in a system that has, for so long, taught us that women and people of color, et al, cannot possibly be more qualified (and has ensured the unlikelihood they will be), it will continue to ring disingenuous.

What needs to happen, instead, is that the ground becomes more level. Not because individual men lie down and flatten themselves, but because everyone participates in the razing of the old institutions and thinking that has made the ground so steep in the past.

[Linus]

Little man: I've been rethinking this all day to see if I could come up with a more realistic example but have been unable. And considering as well the other comments, I've been reconsidering my comment. I'm beginning to think that the ability to remove WMP and give it to others may be too optimistic by me. So I apologize for the disagreement of privilege being returned. I think I'll be thinking about this more over the holidays to see if I can come to a better idea or concept of how to address this, particularly from a personal point of view.


Thank you to everyone for the comments and pointing out the patronizing attitude/idea I had come up with. It is, to me, a sign of my own privilege that comes through at times and a realization as to the amount of self-work I still need to yet do. I am very grateful that I am, at least, able to muddle my way through it and hopefully figure it out at some point.

And thank for participating in this thread.

[Linus]

I have to thank Heart for mention Paul Kivel. He has some interesting articles on privilge (http://www.paulkivel.com/articles.php). Although 10 years old, the article Angry Young White Men is certainly interesting. It does highlight something that should be changed: how we educate young people on the history of this continent. It shouldn't be from the PoV of the conqueror but of all. Zinn's History of America comes to mind.

[little man]

I have to thank Heart for mention Paul Kivel. He has some interesting articles on privilge (http://www.paulkivel.com/articles.php). Although 10 years old, the article Angry Young White Men is certainly interesting. It does highlight something that should be changed: how we educate young people on the history of this continent. It shouldn't be from the PoV of the conqueror but of all. Zinn's History of America comes to mind.

"to the victor goes the spoils"

that also, unfortunately, includes the right to write history from their perspective.

i've long thought that it's a damn shame there isn't a requirement for objective, factual reporting. but, humans being what they are, it'll never happen.

thanks for the linkage.

[Thinker]

I understand your intention wasn't to be demeaning in this way - that it is only positive. The intention of Affirmative Action was a positive one, as well, and in all the ways that it did and does work, it's still good, but a lot of people it is meant to serve come away with a very negative feeling. They do not ever wish to be seen as having merely been hired to meet a quota. Privileged groups and racist others will believe this is why, no matter what.

It feels good to say, "No, you accept the position because you are more qualified," but in a system that has, for so long, taught us that women and people of color, et al, cannot possibly be more qualified (and has ensured the unlikelihood they will be), it will continue to ring disingenuous.

What needs to happen, instead, is that the ground becomes more level. Not because individual men lie down and flatten themselves, but because everyone participates in the razing of the old institutions and thinking that has made the ground so steep in the past.

Agreed.

It doesn't seem possible to "give back" or "reject" WMP without it appearing (maybe even really *being*) a pat-yourself-on-the-back action.........in the end, possibly self-serving.

The way I see it, we need to go about the business of building up all others and shining the light on those who are more deserving.

If you don't mind an analogy from the poker table... We see time and again, an aggressive player who has been betting at a big pot surrender in the end (before it's time to show the cards) and say, "I'm gonna let you have this one."

The player would have one believe that he holds a good hand.......maybe even the best hand.......but he is going to fold it and "let the other person have it" as if he is doing that player a favor.

It takes a big person to lay down the cards and say, "I'm beat. Good hand."

[Dylan]

Guilt doesn't level a playing field

Guilt also keeps the attention on the one with the privilege and NOT on the less privileged...which (again) is privileged


If Ya' Got It, Ya' Got It...Own It And Move On, So You Can Do Something With It Instead Of Wallowing That You Got It,
Dylan

[Linus]

*bumpity bump* May be worthwhile to move some of the discussion from elsewhere to here.

[Medusa]

I'll start by saying that, from where I'm sitting as a Femme, I do not see Transmale and genetic male privilege as the same, nor does it feel the same to me as a Femme when it is exerted in my presence.

[little man]

I'll start by saying that, from where I'm sitting as a Femme, I do not see Transmale and genetic male privilege as the same, nor does it feel the same to me as a Femme when it is exerted in my presence.

do you think that might be based in either a lack of or a different sort of sense of entitlement?

[Turtle]

A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

Name it - Say it loud so others may hear it, just like Linus did - "These women were here first, it's not fair to take me before them." Have meeting minders, whose job it is to note who has spoken, how many times, and for how long (often without being interupted) because if folks are not being mindful the men in the room speak way more and are interrupted way less than the women - in the beginning of noting the numbers are huge.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.


Story - One of my favorite professors (usually presenting as male) would dress in Muslim attire. Other Muslim men would tell him that he didn't have to dress "that" way, only the sisters had to. Whereupon he would tell them that the Qu'ran says that everyone should dress modestly, if they want the women to dress that way, they should , too.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]Some other stuff:
The Testosterone Show on This American Life had many interesting things said but at this moment thinking about Linus' mention of privilege and different dynamics one of the transguys on the show talks about after he began passing as a male, he noticed getting shoulders thrown at him while walking on the street in New York City, something which never happened as a female.

Additionally, in the film "The Believers" about the Transcendence Gospel Choir - a white transguy admits to liking his newly acquired privilege and in the background you can see the disproval of other folks in the choir, many of whom are POC and male-to-female transfolk. /COLOR]

Just some thoughts.

[little man]

two points in your post i'd like to address:



A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

do you mean underserved as in no one should have those benefits or undeserved in that everyone should have the same benefits?


Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.

i would ask you the same question i asked linus...how do you give it away? you can't force those who are giving you the benefit to transfer it to someone else. if you request places at the table for others, it doesn't ensure it will happen. in a perfect world, you could ask for those things and be given them, with the thoughtless person who didn't include the others in the first place slapping their head and learning from the experience. not to say it couldn't happen..it certainly could. can you give me some real world examples of how i can use the new privilege i have to help others?

[Turtle]

Originally Posted by Turtle
A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

do you mean underserved as in no one should have those benefits or undeserved in that everyone should have the same benefits?
I mean that the person being given the privilege did do anything to deserve the benefit. as in being given the job because I'm blond and the boss likes blondes.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.

i would ask you the same question i asked linus...how do you give it away? you can't force those who are giving you the benefit to transfer it to someone else. if you request places at the table for others, it doesn't ensure it will happen. in a perfect world, you could ask for those things and be given them, with the thoughtless person who didn't include the others in the first place slapping their head and learning from the experience. not to say it couldn't happen..it certainly could. can you give me some real world examples of how i can use the new privilege i have to help others?

Nope, there are no guarantees and we should try. When given the opportunity to speak in front of a group one can give the opportunity to someone with another voice - say, "Thank you very much and Ms. So&So can speak to that much better than I could." or This board is made up of car driving people, howcould we know if the bus schedule is working? We need to ask bus riders." Some thingsare easier (heard & seen more readily) than others. Inviting bus riders to a bus scheduling meeting will fly quicker than lots of other situations I might think of.

And I think that the thread is exploring male privilege. I will identify trans or butch depending on the point or depth of the discussion and the person I am talking with. For me it is too long a discussion for here and now, but I choose not to take T or have surgery. I wear my hair very short and cut my sideburns off square, so approached from the back, I get called "sir" on a regular basis. I also have a soft face, large chest, and my voice will be the end of that most of the time - so I don't pass. And I am well aware of how dangerous it can be for a transman to go into a public mens room AND there are many, many privileges to being male in this society. And it's fucking complicated. AND there probably some things a transguy ought not say in a room full of lesbians if he doesn't want to tick off folks, some of whom may never speak to him again.

It's all about assumptions - people thinking we know what someone else is about because of a word, a sentence, clothes, a beard, a turban, etc. - without having the discussion. And sometimes it gets old saying that no, I don't think that cuz I look like this. And when we talk about it and share ideas I learn new ways to think about things. I am very greatful for the people who have shown me others ways to be...and especially to those who don't shed blood while doing it.

[DapperButch]

I'll start by saying that, from where I'm sitting as a Femme, I do not see Transmale and genetic male privilege as the same, nor does it feel the same to me as a Femme when it is exerted in my presence.

I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this. Your thinking often stretches mine.

[Sweet_Amor_Taino]

in theory, yes, i understand. i was looking for a more realistic example, though. can you give me something that's a little closer to real life? i realize it's going to be more mundane that 100K for 8 hrs of work, but i'm looking for a starting point to work from.

as a side note, your example brings to mind some class issues. i also wonder if it is necessary to do oneself harm to help others? i'm not far enough into my coffee this morning to be more coherent. i can take another run at this later in the day, when the synapses are firing more efficiently, if that helps.

ETA: lest i sound unwilling to help affect change, i want to say that i don't mind making sacrifices or doing with less. i'm accustomed to that. and i'm willing to help pretty much anyone i can. i don't know if i would accept a job i'm not qualified for...i dislike personal failure quite a bit. am i willing to give up my seat at the table so someone else can eat? you bet. am i willing to starve myself to death? i dunno about that.

I am a clinical Social Worker that has worked in the Social Service field for over 35 years on different capacities in RI, Boston California and Austin. I am well qualified in my field. I was once hire for a position that required a degree higher them what I had to offer. I took the job I was not willing to turn my head away from a better paying position. I know that the need to fill a quota is a reason some companies hire but I also know they look for the best qualified individual that will meet the requirement of the job and help fill their hiring requirement. I am not will to go without if I could help it.

I will say that I had to deal with coworkers that resented me and made me feel less and unqualified. I did not have the paper requirement but I bought far more hands on the job experience.

[Medusa]

Thanks Dapper!

Yanno, I think that privilege is almost always contextual and that is a huge reason I am not a fan of the blanket "Men have privilege all the time = Tmen have privilege all the time = Men and Tmen have privilege over women all the time = Men/Tmen need to do x, y, z in order to correct/raise awareness of/ingest that privilege properly all the time" sort of statements.

I try to think of what it might look like if there were a group job interview and let's say 4 people were being interviewed:

A White woman
A Latina woman
A Native American man
A White Trans man (and only using Trans as an identifier for illustration purposes, not necessarily to differentiate)

Who has the privilege here?

What if one of them was fat?

What if one of them was in a wheelchair?

What if one of them was wearing clothing that might indicate a lower financial status?

What if one of them had a college degree from Harvard?


I know we've all talked dozens of times about how privilege can be situational and the above is only one way I see this happening. Even on this site, privilege is situational. I might have privilege over a Trans woman. AJ might have privilege over someone who isn't as articulate.

For me, privilege isn't necessarily defined by genetics or gender, because that puts the institutionalism on the person who exists, and not necessarily on the person who GIVES/Assigns the privilege based on their own institutionalization.
I'm not saying that Men/TMen/White People/Rich People don't exist in a privileged context, because I think they do...just that I don't believe the burden of privilege lies 100% in the existence of the person. I think that we are ALL culpable in that privilege.

And what Im about to say next might be wildly unpopular, but I believe that we as women are just as culpable in male privilege if we consistently buy into the idea that we are the "victims" of that privilege.

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist. I'm not saying that it doesn't need to be dismantled. I am saying that *everyone*, has privilege and that any person who believes that Men/TMen have 100%, absolute, unadulterated privilege all the time, every day, for their entire lives is not only full of shit but is guilty of supporting the very hierarchy they rail against.

I think I got off on a tangent, so let me try to redirect myself.

One of the things Im turning over in my head is that male privilege can often feel *worse* when exerted by a Transman. Maybe it's because I hope that Transmen, who have a female context ( in the way of being socialized as children as females) will be an ally to me as a woman who still lives in a female context in helping to dismantle that oppressive system of Men = up there, Women = down there. And maybe that hope isn't fair because I do think that people who are finally able to live in a body that fits who they are inside should get to explore that body and everything that comes with it. I think the exploration of that can be a positive factor or negative factor depending on who that person is inside, what their politics are, etc.
Because let's face it, not every Transman or Transwoman is going to have the same political context. And that is OK!

For me, it boils down to dismissing the idea that Transmen are buying into a system of oppression and that automatically makes them "the enemy" and rather, embracing the idea that someone who is my Queer family member will get to go on a public beach and be shirtless.

Some might call that "privilege".

I call that a fucking celebration.

[AtLast]

On context- considering the example Medusa brought up (I think this can illustrate quite a bit):

If a Transman takes off his shirt at a regular public beach and looks at me and says "nanner, nanner"- my reaction would be about his exercising male privilege.

On the other hand, if a transman says "Let's find a nude beach to hang at so we both can be shirtless and comfortable"- my reaction would be one of his recognizing how male privilege can and does hinder me as a woman.

Another example that goes to how I understand what might be important to a transman simply in the context of his personal comfort with elements of his transition-Celebrating his taking off his shirt in public for the first time by being there for him in a supportive manner. I have certainly done this at Pride events with a transman friend. Didn't have one thing to do with male privilege.

LOL- one more- the context of my late mother about anyone being shirtless around her in a public (or our home, aimed at my Pop and brother). The personal modesty or boundary context.

[little man]

Originally Posted by Turtle
A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

do you mean underserved as in no one should have those benefits or undeserved in that everyone should have the same benefits?
I mean that the person being given the privilege did do anything to deserve the benefit. as in being given the job because I'm blond and the boss likes blondes.

if you got the job because you're blonde and the boss is particular to blondes...would you turn it down, even if you're qualified for the position? i'm real clear on being given a pass on any number of things because the world at large perceives me as male, and assumes i have always been so. it doesn't lessen the "ick factor" for me, nor does it soothe the anger i feel. are the perks nice? uh huh. do i enjoy having them? i'd be a liar if i said no. i'm trying to figure out how to spread the wealth without cutting my own throat.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.

i would ask you the same question i asked linus...how do you give it away? you can't force those who are giving you the benefit to transfer it to someone else. if you request places at the table for others, it doesn't ensure it will happen. in a perfect world, you could ask for those things and be given them, with the thoughtless person who didn't include the others in the first place slapping their head and learning from the experience. not to say it couldn't happen..it certainly could. can you give me some real world examples of how i can use the new privilege i have to help others?

Nope, there are no guarantees and we should try. When given the opportunity to speak in front of a group one can give the opportunity to someone with another voice - say, "Thank you very much and Ms. So&So can speak to that much better than I could." or This board is made up of car driving people, howcould we know if the bus schedule is working? We need to ask bus riders." Some thingsare easier (heard & seen more readily) than others. Inviting bus riders to a bus scheduling meeting will fly quicker than lots of other situations I might think of.

i guess the sticking point for me here is that i don't have a white collar job...i don't speak to groups of people, i do mostly manual labor (with the occasional round or two of office work here and there). the world i live and work in is the one i'm looking for solid ideas about. it's highly doubtful i will ever have a seat on a board or be in a position to affect hiring practices. i'm front line grunt labor. any suggestions from this angle?

And I think that the thread is exploring male privilege. I will identify trans or butch depending on the point or depth of the discussion and the person I am talking with. For me it is too long a discussion for here and now, but I choose not to take T or have surgery. I wear my hair very short and cut my sideburns off square, so approached from the back, I get called "sir" on a regular basis. I also have a soft face, large chest, and my voice will be the end of that most of the time - so I don't pass. And I am well aware of how dangerous it can be for a transman to go into a public mens room AND there are many, many privileges to being male in this society.

i agree, there are many privileges to being male in this society. there are also responsibilities and expectations that come along with it, as well. i've never had issue with using the men's room. i would assume it would be more dangerous for guys who don't pass. it's been my experience that it's far more problematic using the women's room. the men's room is just not so social as the women's room is. guys go in, do their business and leave. hell, i've rarely had anyone even make eye contact with me in there. you've had different experience?

And it's fucking complicated. AND there probably some things a transguy ought not say in a room full of lesbians if he doesn't want to tick off folks, some of whom may never speak to him again.

are those things a butch could say and be given a pass on? or is it just rude in general?

It's all about assumptions - people thinking we know what someone else is about because of a word, a sentence, clothes, a beard, a turban, etc. - without having the discussion.

i think people base their assumptive thoughts (or expectations) on their own experience. 'cause if it looks like a guy, it most likely is. people who have no dissonance with their gender are not forced to examine themselves or their context in the world. everything is hunky dory from the git go for them. it likely doesn't occur to them that it's not that way for others.

And sometimes it gets old saying that no, I don't think that cuz I look like this. And when we talk about it and share ideas I learn new ways to think about things. I am very greatful for the people who have shown me others ways to be...and especially to those who don't shed blood while doing it.

thank you for taking the time to read and engage with me. i appreciate it.

[Turtle]

The BLUE is the NEW stuff-Originally Posted by Turtle
A person may do different things with privilege - and the power that goes with it - some of may favorites being:

Notice it - be aware that you are being given undeserved benefits.

do you mean underserved as in no one should have those benefits or undeserved in that everyone should have the same benefits?
I mean that the person being given the privilege did do anything to deserve the benefit. as in being given the job because I'm blond and the boss likes blondes.

if you got the job because you're blonde and the boss is particular to blondes...would you turn it down, even if you're qualified for the position? i'm real clear on being given a pass on any number of things because the world at large perceives me as male, and assumes i have always been so. it doesn't lessen the "ick factor" for me, nor does it soothe the anger i feel. are the perks nice? uh huh. do i enjoy having them? i'd be a liar if i said no. i'm trying to figure out how to spread the wealth without cutting my own throat. ~I'm still not into spilling blood - and I try to be tru to my "Ick factor" as you say, but every circumstance is different. I read a book (B-Boy Blues) and forgive me if i use the wrong term because I'm not pulling the book out & looking it up, but a character in the book keeps a "Fuck You Account" because as a Black man in journalism he likes to be prepared for the day he has to say "fuck you" and walk off the job. The world is not fair. Ijust try to say something/do something when and where I can - it is not all the time everywhere.

Share it....and give it away - when you have a place at the privilege table, ask for other opinions, ask that the group recruit POC, Queer, female, youth etc. board members, employees, or whatever.

i would ask you the same question i asked linus...how do you give it away? you can't force those who are giving you the benefit to transfer it to someone else. if you request places at the table for others, it doesn't ensure it will happen. in a perfect world, you could ask for those things and be given them, with the thoughtless person who didn't include the others in the first place slapping their head and learning from the experience. not to say it couldn't happen..it certainly could. can you give me some real world examples of how i can use the new privilege i have to help others?Nope, there are no guarantees and we should try. When given the opportunity to speak in front of a group one can give the opportunity to someone with another voice - say, "Thank you very much and Ms. So&So can speak to that much better than I could." or This board is made up of car driving people, howcould we know if the bus schedule is working? We need to ask bus riders." Some thingsare easier (heard & seen more readily) than others. Inviting bus riders to a bus scheduling meeting will fly quicker than lots of other situations I might think of.

i guess the sticking point for me here is that i don't have a white collar job...i don't speak to groups of people, i do mostly manual labor (with the occasional round or two of office work here and there). the world i live and work in is the one i'm looking for solid ideas about. it's highly doubtful i will ever have a seat on a board or be in a position to affect hiring practices. i'm front line grunt labor. any suggestions from this angle?I'm not saying give up a job, jobs often go by connections, maybe you could give a friend a hand up. And I was thinking of social or no-profits groups with boards at church, PFLAG, community organization-type of things. If a group is all one type of looking person, other folks, particularly people who have experienced some sort of ism, may shy away if not specifically invited- and it is easy for the privileged group to not notice that is an issue. Jokes for instance - some folks think a joke is just a joke and what are you all bothered about? Well if you/your group is on the receiving end of the jokes, it could be considered harassment. I try to move in a way that's as welcoming as I can, unless you run over my toes.

And I think that the thread is exploring male privilege. I will identify trans or butch depending on the point or depth of the discussion and the person I am talking with. For me it is too long a discussion for here and now, but I choose not to take T or have surgery. I wear my hair very short and cut my sideburns off square, so approached from the back, I get called "sir" on a regular basis. I also have a soft face, large chest, and my voice will be the end of that most of the time - so I don't pass. And I am well aware of how dangerous it can be for a transman to go into a public mens room AND there are many, many privileges to being male in this society.

i agree, there are many privileges to being male in this society. there are also responsibilities and expectations that come along with it, as well. i've never had issue with using the men's room. i would assume it would be more dangerous for guys who don't pass. it's been my experience that it's far more problematic using the women's room.Problematic and noisy, yes - deadly no, for some reason some men think they can kill people who "trick" them genderwise the men's room is just not so social as the women's room is. guys go in, do their business and leave. hell, i've rarely had anyone even make eye contact with me in there. you've had different experience? Friends have, I am very picky about which men's room I'll go in

And it's fucking complicated. AND there probably some things a transguy ought not say in a room full of lesbians if he doesn't want to tick off folks, some of whom may never speak to him again.

are those things a butch could say and be given a pass on? or is it just rude in general? There are some women, which I think Linus has experienced and mentioned here or in another thread, who will declare a transman a traitor to the gender (you're not being the way i think you ought to be). A butch may not get the same level of reaction.

It's all about assumptions - people thinking we know what someone else is about because of a word, a sentence, clothes, a beard, a turban, etc. - without having the discussion.

i think people base their assumptive thoughts (or expectations) on their own experience. 'cause if it looks like a guy, it most likely is. people who have no dissonance with their gender are not forced to examine themselves or their context in the world. everything is hunky dory from the git go for them. it likely doesn't occur to them that it's not that way for others.
Exactly, people need to figure out what works best for them. It's not the same for everybody, we change of minds, we learn new ways - it's not a crime. I love learning new things, I'm not worried about thinking "Ooo, that's a better way to do it. I'll try that." Unraveling the older set of gender stuff and cutting a new path ain't easy. Talkin about it is good.

And sometimes it gets old saying that no, I don't think that cuz I look like this. And when we talk about it and share ideas I learn new ways to think about things. I am very greatful for the people who have shown me others ways to be...and especially to those who don't shed blood while doing it.

thank you for taking the time to read and engage with me. i appreciate it. engaging is good. Lurking learns, but doesn't help the discussion. Thanks to you, too.

[Quintease]

This thread reminds me of Ben Barr, an FTM scientist. After a talk, a member of the audience apparently said - “Ben Barres gave a great talk today…his work is much better than his sister’s.” Only Ben Barr doesn't have a sister.

[Evan]

This thread reminds me of Ben Barr, an FTM scientist. After a talk, a member of the audience apparently said - “Ben Barres gave a great talk today…his work is much better than his sister’s.” Only Ben Barr doesn't have a sister.
That phenomenon has occured for several people in several environments. "He's far better in this positioin than that woman we fired"- same person , same job, post-transition. "The research was far superior than the unscholarly work "x" tried to submit" -Exact same research, submitted under male name, post transition .

Of course it also happens the other way around too.
"x " was always hilarious. Not like this misogynistic prick " -Same person , same joke, post transition.....
And that really sucks.

[Thinker]

Article on one transguy's thoughts on and experiences with heteronormative privilege...

http://www.autostraddle.com/hello-testosterone-hello-heteronormative-privilege-87896/

[Linus]

Nice find, Thinker! I was particularly struck by this:

When you’re visibly queer you have what women’s studies professor Daphne Patai first labeled “surplus visibility.” Essentially, when a space has long been dominated by one group of people (heterosexuals in this example), any minority presence (the queers!) appears excessive, gathers a great deal of attention, and is often deemed offensive by members of the majority. For example, while a man and a woman holding hands often go completely unnoticed by passers-by, two women holding hands are always seen.

Once I started living as a man and transitioned to be seen as one by the rest of the world, I lost all visible queerness in my relationships and dating. And I lost this surplus visibility. For the first time since I was in high school, I could blend in. I didn’t have to be seen. Me holding hands with the girl I was dating didn’t mean something bigger than an acknowledgement between the two of us that we liked each other; it wasn’t a political statement; no one found it offensive.

Bold and emphasis by me. I had never heard of "surplus visibility" but it does make sense. And very true.

[MickMan]

Newbie to this site but I have to say I am really enjoying this thread.

I am transmale. Started my transition in 2004. I pass 100% and have only had one surgery, but I have to say it is such a different life.

I completely agree that I am treated with respect, dignity and kindness. I see people do such kind things for me that I would have never received back prior to 2004 and it astonishes me at exactly HOW differently it is.

I take care of my mom who has Alzheimer's. I am praised every time someone hears about it. But, there are many women who do the same and rarely get any thanks. I am thanked for the things I use to do that went unnoticed.

It is crazy.

[Linus]

Mickman, welcome!

It is weird to receive those accolades when you know that others do it. Have you ever challenged someone when they praise you but not others, particularly women?

[MickMan]

Mickman, welcome!

It is weird to receive those accolades when you know that others do it. Have you ever challenged someone when they praise you but not others, particularly women?


Thanks for the welcome.

Yes, I have said something like, "There are many who do what I do, lots of women care for their parents." The reply is usually something like; but they are women and are expected to care for them.

I often try to make light and remind them that many women do thankless jobs, but it is always the same reply.

I remember hearing an actress say something to the effect of; Women have to be better than men, for less money, look better and do it in heels to get half the respect.