A straight girl enters the queer world...

[DaddysKitten]

I have a dear friend of mine who has recently entered into a relationship with a trans-man. She's never had any sort of alternate relationship with anything other than bio-men, and is struggling, though she won't openly admit it.

I myself was straight when I met my trans-man, but I was raised by lesbians therefor always had a base understanding of the lifestyle, though by all means did this make me an expert or even experienced, but I'm finding giving her advice difficult, truly.

She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough. When I first met my Daddy, I was a sponge for information. For those few who remember me from the other B-F forums with him, I was constantly posting, asking questions, getting involved in discussions, and I learned so much, and it helped me to truly learn about him, his doubts, his worries, his concerns, and all of those things he faces every day, that I would have been oblivious to. And my ability to educate myself, created a portal into him, more thoroughly.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt. And I'm at a loss for advice to give her. So I have a few questions.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be. So we have a straight girl clueless of the trans mentality, with a trans-man who has a very hard time accepting that she doesn't know everything, that in fact, she is quite ignorant of it all. Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times.

Sadly, we are dealing with two people who lack a lot of self worth and self-esteem. But, I do believe there is a sense of real love between them, though Daddy seems to disagree, he knows the female party better than I do. But I want to be a good friend for her, and help her. I'm just finding myself at a loss.

I have tried the tough love, get it through your damn head, approach. And I have tried the kind loving approach, neither of which seem to make her see the big picture.

Any help with this would be appreciated.

Thanks BF!

[princessbelle]

My first thought when reading this is your friends need to grasp the fact that no matter who they date, they are still themselves.

For example...I am a gay femme woman, that is my ID. I am still that gay femme woman no matter if i date Butch, FTM, Trans, or Bio-Men for that matter. (not that i would date bio-men, but trying to prove my point here)

No matter who i date, that does not change who i am.

The second thing i want to mention is respect. This is how i see it anyway...

If i'm dating someone that goes by He or Hy or She, i call them their selected pronoun out of respect. It doesn't mean it changes who i am. It is all about them and what "they" prefer. If i date a FTM and he has transitioned to a man, i would still be a gay femme woman, and never would i think of myself as straight. Even if "he" sees it that way or the rest of the world did. I wouldn't care. I know who i am.

IMO you don't have to have a bookshelf full of knowledge to understand how someone IDs. If the person explains it to you fully and you take that, accept that and honor that with respect. It doesn't change who you are and how you ID. You can date three different Trans or Butch or any ID and get three different ways of seeing how they feel. There is no cut and dry answer to knowing IMO. All relationships are different and you just gotta really listen to your partner to know what they want, expect and need so that you can be the best partner you can be.

I have dated the gamut, and it's always a little adjustment with the way they ID but it is theirs and you just have to be flexible and respectful. What's more important, at least to me, is do "we" get along, are we compatible, do we have similar dreams, do i feel affection and is that affection given back. Ya know?

Another thought is invite her here. Show her some of the threads on Trans and maybe she can get a feel of how it flows.

Not sure this was your question really, but just wanted to share that.

Sounds like you are a really good friend and they are lucky to have you around. (f)

[Soft*Silver]

I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?

[DaddysKitten]

I really like all of what Princess Belle wrote. Wise woman, she is...

I am a gay female involved with a straight bio man who is genderbending towards femaleness. I am still gay. Who I am with has nothing to do with my orientation.In decades past, (and even in today's time!) some gay women and men involved themselves only with opposite sexes, in order to never feel the social stigma of being gay. If they never slept with same sex, and even married opposite sex, that did not change them from being gay.

First, I have also dated several transmen and can tell you that they are just like any other human being. Some are very nice human beings. And yes, some are asses. If he was an ass before his transition most likely and will be one after.

Second, this is THEIR relationship. He makes that decision to be so. She makes that decision to contend with it. You make that decision to try to fix both of them. Since you cant change either one of them, lets look at what and who you can change....you.

Third, YOU. Your friend isnt saying she is struggling, you are. Your friend hasnt asked for advice but you are giving it. She flips back and forth with pronouns, but hun, so did you...

"Yet, she seems to manipulate her often into making her feel like she is such a horrible person for saying and feeling the way she does at times."

why you doing this? Why are you trying to "knock" knowledge into your friend when they are pacing themselves to who they are, where they are, with each other and themselves?

let go of trying to control them. Love your Daddy. And be at peace...

Why are you the person responsible for their relationship?

No, actually she is coming to me ALL the time with help in this relationship. This has nothing at all to do with control, it has to do with me reaching out for more information to be able to better help them in their relationship.

I would never ever complain about such a thing, and I will completely support her. But I am finding it a challenge, and as a good friend, who is trying to give her all she needs to help her with her questions, and her situations, that is why the post is here.

As a friend, you give advice, you lend your shoulder, and share your own ideals, and situations with them in order to help them when times are hard. This has little at all to do with control. Telling her my thoughts, and ideas, about what she comes to me with is not controlling, it's being honest and open and not sugarcoating everything, because in the end that would only be detrimental.

[DeviantDaddy]

My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.

[DaddysKitten]

My kitten, it is nice to see that you chose to post the thread after all.

Princessbelle, thank you for your input. It is very well said and yes, my kitten and I have invited my dear friend to the Planet. Hopefully she will go on to create an account and immerse herself in the numerous informative threads available.

Miss_Tia, thank you for taking the time to read the thread and also post your thoughts on it. However, there is some misunderstanding. I would like to clarify that. Both kitten and I care deeply for this friend of mine. And we happily support her and help guide her.

And though my friend is not stating she is struggling, it is not indicative of her not needing help. If someone is having a difficult time in something and I know them well enough to recognize this, what kind of friend would I be to sit back and do nothing simply because they have not reached out? Do not get me wrong, we are not forcing ourselves upon her. But when my kitten is up at all hours of the night listening to my friend sob in her ear, then yes, we will take that as a clear indication of needing help.

As for the partner's identity, I must admit that it confuses us at times. Said person appears to be confused in a way. Plenty of back and forth and to be honest I feel he still has more growing to do. One moment he is soft butch, then he is male, yet my friend says she. Kitten and I are only now getting to know him. The other night I asked him how he wants to be referred as and he said he. So we are respecting that but I can see how kitten got confused once more. In the years I have had kitten in nuuuuu life, not once has she ever referred to me as "she", largely due to my own security in my identity. Therefore I assure you, she meant no disrespect.


This isn't about trying to control them at all. It is about watching a loved one in a situation where the maximization can be solved.

Thank you, Daddy. Perhaps I'll just tell you what I want to say, and let you post it, your ability with words is superior to my own, of late for some reason. lol. Love you.

[T D]

Just a thought, but it seems to me that if someone "really" wants to know about something/someone they will put the effort into researching the subject thoroughly. I'm not saying your friend hasn't done some of this, but it does sound like a good deal more research could be done by her on the subject. It also sounds like the two of them need to communicate more, talk, listen, share, and yes, respect the wishes of one another.

On a side note, I know for myself that I encompass all sorts of characteristics. Some people may see me as a gay male, others a straight male, and even others not sure what to think. I cook, I decorate, I love flowers, I don't drink beer, I despise performing mechanical (auto care) related activities, I like nice things in my home, etc. Sometimes I may seem callous or indifferent, while at other times I'm the most caring and generous of friends. We're all made up of so many different characteristics that I think it's unfair and difficult to "pigeon hole" anyone as being this or that type of person. We are simply who we are, with everything that makes us be that person. Whatever/whoever someone else is simply needs to be respected as a part of their being.

Just my observation from what I've read so far. :)

Best of luck to your friends!

[Corkey]

Seems to me if someone wanted to learn they would put in the effort. There are plenty of resources available, there are even support groups like SOFFA that help S/O's of Transfolks get their bearings.
The pronoun thing she'll either get it or she wont, there really isn't an in between. It may even take her some time to change the tape in her mind, but it can be done.
There are threads on this site that Transfolks post in that could be of some help to her. So I guess it's up to her to put in the effort.
Welcome you two to the Planet.

[aishah]

welcome to the planet!

for me, as a partner of a transman, i have a hard time understanding the pronoun issue. my partner said he preferred masculine pronouns. end of story. i slipped up a few times on accident when we first started dating but...part of being committed to someone is making a concerted effort to use their pronouns. if it were me i would feel really disrespected and unsafe, so i try not to make my partner feel that way.

i've found it super helpful to reach out to my trans* & genderqueer friends, read books, read blogs and zines, etc.

i think if this person's partner is confused about their identity that is probably not helping and might exacerbate the situation, but still - listening and talking honestly, listening to what the person wants and doesn't want (i.e. in terms of touch, pronouns, etc.) and respecting that is hugely important. everyone doesn't have to have their id figured out to be able to communicate and respect those wishes and boundaries.

i love what princess belle says about how a partner's id is a separate issue and it doesn't change (or have to change) how we id.

[LaneyDoll]

Ok, there are a few things here that concern me so I am going to address them one at a time.
I am in purple as usual...

She seems to lack so much of the basic knowledge, yet feels her 'love' for him, is enough.

Is love really enough? Is it possible to have love without basic understanding? The first time I dated a stone butch, I read and read and read so that I might better understand where she was coming from. Did it help? Who knows? Things did not progress b/c we were too different to date BUT we are still good friends, over a year later. And when she needs advice or wants a jolt of reality, she calls me.

I find she is caught up more in her 'love' for what he offers her, especially since as Daddy puts it, trans-men and butches have a way into a woman that a bio-male could never even begin to attempt.

Here again. Is this "love" enough? Does she really love him or is she in love with the way he treats her when things are good because then we come into my third concern...

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

It sounds to me like he is still struggling with who he is. If he has not accepted his self, then how can she?

Just my thoughts at first glance, they may change later after I have had time to think about this some more.

:sparklyheart:

[aishah]

i love what laney said.

i wanted to echo that response to the "love" issue - to me, love, at least in a relationship, requires some sort of commitment. it's not enough to get caught up in the honeymoon feelings. if you are in a relationship with someone loving them means being committed at least to being empathetic and compassionate towards them, and to not making them feel disrespected and unsafe (or at least putting in the effort). so - being caught up in the warm fuzzy feelings is awesome, but it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.

[LaneyDoll]

it seems like there's not a lot of feeling of responsibility to the partner here...and that i find kind of disconcerting.

I agree! And it seems to be coming from BOTH sides. But I do not think it is based in a mean way, I think it is because he does not yet know himself and she does not know how to make his journey easier because of this.

:sparklyheart:

[Toughy]

Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

You seem to be putting more effort in her relationship than she is. I'm thinking it should be the other way around as others have said. To me, it speaks volumes about her real interest in her partner/boyfriend. A pro-active role in understanding the many facets of a person is required.

I also think that at times folks have a tendency to pigeon-hole someone. He is much more than a transman. For a relationship to work folks need to focus on the individual rather than the label/id. Seeking general information about trans folks is also a good thing.

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship

[BullDog]

IMO you don't have to have a bookshelf full of knowledge to understand how someone IDs. If the person explains it to you fully and you take that, accept that and honor that with respect. It doesn't change who you are and how you ID.

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

[Soft*Silver]

If I had someone who was calling me and crying to me hours at night, I would wonder why they are needing me so much and if I am the one to answer their needs at all. And I would then examine why I am buying into this neediness. What purpose is it serving me??

Frankly, by the way its being described, I think its all overboard, both in the primary relationship, and in the way its being handled outside of the relationship

I have friends...with whom I have deeply rich, long term, even profound friendships. When my friends go thru bad times, I am there for them but not when I shouldnt be. Sometimes being a sounding board or a shoulder to cry on is actually detrimental. To both the crier and to the "shoulder". Sometimes what they need isnt me...

to personalize it....If my sub had so much of a problem with me and was sobbing about how bad the relationship is over and over again, to someone else, 1) I would want to know why he was still in a relationship with me, since no one makes you a victim unless you put yourself in those positions (I am not talking about abuse here. Abuse is a different matter and thats all about hostage taking)

2) If my sub had no clue about our relationship dynamics and my "label" as a Being, why isnt he investigating, researching, getting involved, etc. so that he can know what loving and respecting me entails..not to mention doing so for himself!

3) If he "loves" me but doesnt know me, then I am gonna really suspect that there isnt love there but neediness. This is a pet peeve of mine..people who proclaim love LONG before it is a true factor. When people do this, it means there is a hole inside them that they want someone else to fill. This, is the ugly D word. Dependency. If I let our relationship continue when there isnt real love established, its not just his fault, its mine too, and so then its on both of our parts and thats called CO-dependency.

one more thing

Imma gonna end by saying this: those who try to fix other people's relationships, don't. In fact, often they either make it last longer than it should, or sometimes they make it break up sooner than it should, if at all! I am not suggesting we shouldnt be there for friends who need us...but needing us as friends and being needy as a friend, are two separate things...one is about love, the other about dependency.

[TickledPink]

When it comes down to it, the TWO of them will have to figure it out. There is no book, friend, forum, etc that can do that for either of them.

Perhaps the journey will be a great growing experience for each!

Well-wishes!

[aishah]

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

[DeviantDaddy]

Just some questions (they don't require an answer) and thoughts that came to mind......

Why are you giving her advice? I rarely ever give anyone advice. I can tell them what I feel or think or question about a situation, how I would act in that situation, but that is the extent of it. I rarely ever say 'I think you should ______' (I am probably nitpicking the meaning of advice)

.....

edited to add cuz I forgot it:
I"m wondering why he is in a relationship. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do himself....it is hard to do that in a new relationship


Hi Toughy,
When we speak to her in regards to the matters she brings us, it is rarely ever in a manner of... 'I think you should do this' and so forth. The only exception to that has been our suggestion to join discussion boards (such as this one) and read up on a lot of the information that is available to the public. And as far as the person she is seeing, I have considered the very same thing. In speaking to him there are plenty of red flags that I have picked up on but am not getting in the middle of. Everything we speak of we simply answer questions she directly asks us and other times we're just there to listen.

I am certain that the very reason she turns to us is given the slight similarities in our circumstances. My kitten was very much a heterosexual woman who only dated cis-gender males until she met me. So she feel s as though we would be the best people to turn to in regards to her questions and such.

[Quintease]

The first time I dated someone trans, I had a real problem acknowledging 'she' was a 'he'. I was a lesbian goddamnit! And lesbians didn't date men.
But I couldn't help myself, he was so amazing that I couldn't stay away.
It didn't help that at the time he was going through a period of discovery himself, so didn't have the confidence to fully come out.

I barely knew anything about trans, so it was invaluable to me that he took the time to talk everything through with me, to answer all of my questions, lend me books and even show me a video. It was an eye-opener which would never have happened had he been the sort to take my ignorance personally.

The second time I dated someone trans I thought I was down with the kids, I thought I knew. Of course I realised how ridiculous that was about a week later, particularly when I remembered that I was a lesbian.
Luckily my husband was happy to talk to me about anything and everything and even argue with me on occasion when our cultures clashed.

1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

It's not important. What's important is she care about her partner and try to meet his needs and he do the same. In time she'll either learn on the job or he will terminate the relationship.

I find she bounces back and forth with her pronouns for him as well. Referring to him more as 'her or she' than 'him or he'. This tells me she really doesn't understand, or take this seriously.

She's probably trying to square up the two realities. If she's had a straight life up till now, none of this will fit the world she's been living in for most of her life. In time everything will start to make sense or else he'll get fed up with her and leave.

She leans on me, knowing my history as well, but I find myself at a loss to really 'knock' the information into her, to make her understand him as well as I understand my Daddy.

The two of you have different partners, different relationships. Understanding your relationship isn't necessarily going to help her with her own.

The second part of my issue, is that her lover, is highly emotional, and takes a lot of things really really personal, that aren't meant to be.

If he is not able to be a patience and tolerant educator, than she is not going to learn. Simples. He either needs to grow up or give up. Her 'manipulation' is probably the only way she knows how to defuse the situation. He feels bad, she gets a break.

[DeviantDaddy]

Well said, Quin.

[DaddysKitten]

Thank you everyone for your comments and input. In a brief discussion forum such as this, many details are being left out. She leans on me, perhaps too much, as it has been stated, because she finds me someone who can relate to the questions she has.

I don't feel you need to become an 'expert' on something like this, to be with someone. But when it is a completely new experience, I believe anyone who was not born with the inclinations, finding themselves in 'new' territory, researching, to understand is very very important. I know, that partly it was my need to understand the obstacles, my partner faced on a daily, basis, that he couldn't just come out and explain perfectly, brought us closer, it solidified out understanding of each other.

Most are right, the ID of someone, should not be so focused on in a relationship. But you have to remember that we are discussing someone who has entered completely new territory. And having been the straight girl, who fell madly in love with a trans-man, without it having been something I was born with the inclination to, to more fully understand it naturally, I found my own self identification important.

We aren't talking about just a label, or the [B]definition[B] of what someone is. We're discussing daily trials and tribulations, they go through. Such as, with Daddy, he has the looks to contend with. Not something he would have really just brought to me, but it was something that educating myself, I was able to understand, to better support him during these struggles. Intimately, it allowed me to be curious, and ask him detailed questions about what he was comfortable with, and what he wasn't comfortable with.

All in all, it became something that led him to really trust me, lose the fear of 'what if the straight girl doesn't want me' and replaced it with awe and appreciation because it showed him how important even the little details of his life, were to me.

There is never a cut and dry answer or reply to anything, in a relationship. Be it straight vanilla or kinky trans/bi/gay. But when so many transmen and transwomen deal with so much, that isn't easy to just make common conversation of it, this can be integral in much of the understanding we need to have to be complete partners.

As for helping, hindering, or postponing the inevitable in their relationship, I just want to say that my reasons for even beginning this thread, was to find people who may have experienced something, that I intended on bringing her to this thread to read, and learn from herself. Just as we all learn things from such writings, or even ramblings. I don't have the advice, or the help I wish I could offer her. That is why I am here. Though she is reaching out, and I remember reaching out as well. So to anyone who may agree or disagree, that is all this is about. Understanding, or hearing of anothers' experiences, is not advising someone on how to run their relationship, it is expressing an understanding, and hope that they will find something positive, to take out of it, that will help them.

Once again, thank you everyone for the replies.

[Corkey]

http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=976

Here is the link to the SOFFA thread I was talking about, she may find some help with her issues around what she is feeling there.

[LaneyDoll]

i don't think anyone should HAVE to research. for me, researching is something i wanted to do and it was a helpful/supportive process (partly because i also spend a lot of time around trans* and genderqueer folks outside of my relationship too). for me it was more helpful in the sense of being exposed to things that represented mine and my partner's and friends' lives (because it's not like you can turn on tv and find media that resembles our experiences). so i think it can be helpful in some ways aside from even just knowledge. my butch ftm partner (who is monogamous) said the same thing of reading/watching stuff about polyamory - that it helped him to see relationships like ours.

research isn't required to treat someone respectfully wrt their pronouns and boundaries though.

Agreed.

I read/research because I will *never* understand what it is like to be butch, stone butch, trans etc. I am a femme who looks like a straight, vanilla world soccer mom. As such, reading about another's life, journey etc allows me to step into their world-over and over for as many times and worlds as I can find. I love to get into someone's mind and find out how they think. For a variety of reasons, you cannot always ask as many questions as I have.

If reading/research is how someone learns, then that may be exactly what they need to do.

Additionally, reading allows you to reflect and absorb at your own pace, it gives you new questions to learn answers to and you do not have to concern yourself with how a book is going to react to your desire to learn more.



:sparklyheart:

[Parker]

I agree with this. Why does anyone need to fully research to date someone? Is the same expected if someone is dating a femme or a butch? Maybe the transman needs to fully research what it means to date a straight woman.

Yes. This. Nail-->Head.

[DeviantDaddy]

I think that it is actually highly beneficial to "research" things about your partner and aspects that are critical in their lives. I know some people have mentioned that it isn't important to research their partner and such but I respectfully disagree with that notion. Specially when it comes to entering unknown terrain... smiles.

[BullDog]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

[Corkey]

I think dating and intimate relationships are two different things. What I would be willing to do for one I'm intimate with and one I'm dating are also two different things. The level of personal commitment is at issue. Now if I were to date again, and I'm not cause I'm married and happily so, I would be sure to know what the intended glimmer of my eye identified as, how that effected me and if we were compatible. Sometimes the heart wants what it wants, and we just have to learn how to live with a person we never would have given a second glance to.
I do however think that just flying by the seat of the pants is a risky and potentially hazardous way to live.
Then again I'm old enough to be secure and fairly immovable in my own way of being.

[Corkey]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

[BullDog]

I don't think that is the case always BullDog. I think it gets talked about more, because the flip of Transwomen dating men isn't at issue on this site as much. I think everyone has the responsibility to be respectful of each other.

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

[DeviantDaddy]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

I understand what you mean, in truth when I met kitten I was a bit lost on the subject and unable to find discussions on it. I actually had very long discussions with her when we first met. A learning experience for us both which was quite wonderful.

[Corkey]

There are a lot of transmen here that date lesbian/queer femmes.

Yes, and the point? If none of the Lesbians or Queer Femmes were attracted to FTM's, and visa versa then what would we have? Butches date Femmes, Ftm's date Femmes, Femmes date whom ever they wish. I would hazard a guess that FTM's date a whole gambit of the sexual spectrum, and so do Femmes.
We all have to get to know each other, and I guess I'm wondering why you said you rarely hear of Transmen having conversations about Femmes? Maybe you just aren't listening? Or it doesn't concern you? Or you just want to point out something that is eluding me.

[BullDog]

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

[Chancie]

I don't get it. Why shouldn't a friend ask another friend for advice? I do that all the time. When Pete and I got together, I was way out of practice of being in a serious relationship, and I had plenty of concerns. I'm pretty comfortable with my communication skills, but there are times I want to think something thorough before I talk to Pete.

[Corkey]

Corkey, see Deviant Daddy's post above. The amount of conversation that I have seen at online BF sites about femmes putting effort into understanding transmen has been much greater than the other way around. To me it seems quite lopsided. What partners discuss in private I would not be privy to.

I see Femmes posting in FTM threads, and the Transmen responding to them, so while you may not see it I have to question the motive for your statement. Are you talking accommodations for who a person is or accommodations in the way a person touches another? I mean what is it you see that I don't?
I put a lot of effort into understanding another person, I don't attach a label to them.
I do see in those threads there is a marked aggressiveness in whom pursues whom, and therefore where the discussions get their direction. But it has nothing to do with FTM's not trying to get to know Femmes. I do think that FTM's get noticed more so because of the nonconformity, other than that, yea not so much. Humans behaving like humans.

[BullDog]

Corkey I am lost at this point as to what you are saying. I think we should leave it at our perceptions are very different.

[Corkey]

Corkey I am lost at this point as to what you are saying. I think we should leave it at our perceptions are very different.

Oh I know they are different, which is why I was asking you some questions, which you are under no obligation to answer. You pointed out, without too much fact that Femmes are always the ones who have to get to know FTM's. I am challenging that statement.
I think all parties who want to understand one another are under obligation to do so with respect.

[BullDog]

Oh I know they are different, which is why I was asking you some questions, which you are under no obligation to answer. You pointed out, without too much fact that Femmes are always the ones who have to get to know FTM's. I am challenging that statement.
I think all parties who want to understand one another are under obligation to do so with respect.

Corkey, I have clearly differentiated private conversations between two individuals and discussions I have observed online. I agree with you that anyone wanting to get to know someone should do so with respect irregardless of how someone ids.

I do think websites such as this do offer a lot of information for all of us, including people new to our community and someone wanting to learn about trans, butch and femme issues could find a lot of great information and people here, so it's a great resource to point people to.

My only motivation was I don't think femmes should have to do a majority of the research and accommodating, whether their partners be trans, butch or anything else. There seems to be a big discrepancy that I have observed over a long time being on these sites. This is my perception. I am not challenging your perception.

[Corkey]

Corkey, I have clearly differentiated private conversations between two individuals and discussions I have observed online. I agree with you that anyone wanting to get to know someone should do so with respect irregardless of how someone ids.

I do think websites such as this do offer a lot of information for all of us, including people new to our community and someone wanting to learn about trans, butch and femme issues could find a lot of great information and people here, so it's a great resource to point people to.

My only motivation was I don't think femmes should have to do a majority of the research and accommodating, whether their partners be trans, butch or anything else. There seems to be a big discrepancy that I have observed over a long time being on these sites. This is my perception. I am not challenging your perception.

Thank you for answering. Having been on sites like this for a while, I too think they are a great resource, without the perception of whom does what. Because what I perceive has nothing to do with the reality of how people get to know each other. When you say Femmes have to do the majority of research and accommodating I find that to be erroneous. I think, and have observed that all ID's have a learning curve, and all ID's accommodate.

[betenoire]

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

[The_Lady_Snow]

kitten,

I hope that you are kind and patient with your straight friend who just found herself on a roller coaster ride of the gender spectrum/queer/non binary/who am I now path...

She's a woman who before probably had no clue what *trans* was, queer, transitioning, and all the other things that one stumbles onto when they begin to date someone outside of the heteronormative..

Some good reading material:

Gender Outlaw : Kate Bornstein

Transgender Emergence : Arlene Istar

Transgender Warriors: Leslie Feinberg

I also hope that during this difficult time the gentleman who is dating your friend does some self reflection and realizes that it's not just about him him and only him.

It's now them...

He too should be patient and be able to communicate what is going on, what to expect, what changes will happen etc etc.

If he's not ready to do so, perhaps they should not be in a relationship till they both figure out who they are and who they aren't..

I would give her the names of the dash site, and now this site so that she can read and soak up all those gender conversations that have been had and continue to happen to this day.

She may not fully understand the mentality of a transgender mind, that is something we may never be privy to, but we can be patient and understanding as long as the same is being returned.

It reads selfish on his part that he expect her to do all her homework on him, his gender confusion, his journey. Relationships are a two way highway and he has to be just as invested into her new journey into something she has probably no clue about... It was also disturbing to read that manipulation was going on.

I wish them both luck, perhaps they can go and get some therapy with a gender therapist who could be the mediator for questions she has and her asking them without her boyfriend getting all offensive.

She can't learn about him and what he's going through if he's going to deflect all the issues within him onto her because of her curiousity..

I wish both of them luck and you too sounds like you are trying to be a good friend to her..

[Soft*Silver]

when I met my sub, he introduced me to a whole area of gay male sexuality that I had never even heard of. I introduced him to a whole culture of trans that he was unaware of. We both did ALOT of research as we got to know one another.

Learning about Oz when you are from Kansas, helps you date the lion instead of the farm hand you are use to...

[Parker]

I don't think it is bad to do some research into issues, it just seems that most of the expectations are placed on the one dating the transman to do the research. I rarely hear about transmen looking into understanding the issues their lesbian/queer partners face. Perhaps they do in real life, but I rarely hear about it in these online conversations. It all seems quite lopsided to me and that women do much of the research, accommodating, etc. I think all genders have special issues that we face that could be better understood by others.

You're not alone - I see this apparent lopsidedness as well.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.

[weatherboi]

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!

[BullDog]

None of my posts have anything to do with butches vs transmen.
Have a good convo.

[Toughy]

Hi Toughy,
When we speak to her in regards to the matters she brings us, it is rarely ever in a manner of... 'I think you should do this' and so forth. The only exception to that has been our suggestion to join discussion boards (such as this one) and read up on a lot of the information that is available to the public. And as far as the person she is seeing, I have considered the very same thing. In speaking to him there are plenty of red flags that I have picked up on but am not getting in the middle of. Everything we speak of we simply answer questions she directly asks us and other times we're just there to listen.

I am certain that the very reason she turns to us is given the slight similarities in our circumstances. My kitten was very much a heterosexual woman who only dated cis-gender males until she met me. So she feel s as though we would be the best people to turn to in regards to her questions and such.

I hope you did not take my comments to mean something negative towards You or Your kitten. I was addressing what was said and none of it was personal......

I certainly agree there are red flags on both their parts.....and I am damn sure glad I am not either one of them <grin>

[stepfordfemme]

I really want to answer this post as its been one of few that has struck a cord with me. My own opinion follows and I hope this discussion continues.

To answer the question:
1. How important is the full understanding of trans-gender mentality and needs to be a complete partner to someone who is trans?

In my experience in dating and getting to know transmen, I would say that this is dependent on where the guy is in his transition. If they are taking their relationship through the whole process, then it would be of benefit to brush up on information. It just makes it easier.

From my transguy-loving femme perspective, I don't think your friend is any less straight, nor should is it her duty to be informed--as long as she understands she is dating a man. He views himself as such from what I gather. And he understands he is dating a straight girl. There will be bumps and hiccups and messiness. But I agree with some of the postings, why do we all need to know everything if our intentions and hearts are in the right place? I don't believe one can never understand another's experience, just try to hear and listen to as much as possible. Communication is key in these relationships.

I'm a believer that our gender identity can be fluid (yes I'm going there). I define as queer, but I view my relationships with transmen as completely heterosexual. When I'm blessed to have a transman in my life, I'm a happy straight girl. When I'm dating a fine butch, I'm a happy queer girl. But there are women like myself, who don't exactly fit a label either---just like many others in the community!

Maybe your friend is just trying to be with a person she cares about rather than get caught up in gender mentality. Is that complicated? Absolutely. I applaud you for being there for them. Just take care of yourselves as well.

I've read some posts that say identity is fixed, but I believe that is a choice some people choose to make. IMO Labels just allow us to communicate preferences and there are some people that don't have a lot of attachments to the words and analysis.

Thanks for reading and posting on this thread. Interesting!

[Gemme]

My gut reaction, from the little bit that has been discussed here, is to take a biiiig step back.

Drawing from my personal experience, it sounds as if your friend...who very well may be the sweetest woman on Earth...is an energy vampire. If she's boohooing on your shoulders at all hours and 'woe is me'ing without taking some personal responsibility for her own relationship, then I feel badly for all parties involved.

It's not going to end well.

Both of them need to educate themselves and to take the time and make the effort to educate one another about what they've learned, not only about the dynamics of their relationship but of their own personal goals/thoughts/dreams/wishes/etc for themselves as individuals and as partners in a working relationship.

The thing with the pronouns. Oh, my. That rubs my nerves RAW. When folks would call Ebon her or she, I swear, I wore my teeth down even further than my nightly grinding does. It's not only blatantly disrepectful and ignorant but it's confusing to those who are watching her to see how to approach him in their relationship.

And if he doesn't know where he's coming from or at least in what direction he wants to go, then he's dragging her along blindly and it may be in a direction that is not good for either of them.

Love schmove. She's getting her toes curled and is feeling the newlywed buzz from it. If she truly loved him, she'd make the effort to address him as he prefers and to support him. If he was truly in love with her, then he'd make clear boundaries and enforce them with her and others.

This is their relationship and their lives. They need to start living them on their own. I'd steer them both in the direction of good, solid research material and maybe shoot them a couple emails with therapists (Trans, couples, etc) and then take a biiig step back and lay my own boundaries down with them. I like you and I hope this works out, but I will not let you drain me. Live your own life and make your own decisions and, for the love of Pete (not Chancie's Pete), grow the Hell up. Both of them.

Arwen said that the Mercury Retrograde would make it more difficult to maintain my filters.

She might be right.

:blink:

[EnderD_503]

A few people have brought up "research." I tend to agree with that perspective, only because, at least from the way I learn, reading about something as a whole tends to clarify it and give it context. That doesn't mean that you can read about one trans experience and see it as an all encompassing trans experience...you certainly can't, but it can give you greater context.

I notice that some people coming from a more strictly ingrained straight and cis background really have trouble. All their lives they think in binaries; female and male, gay and straight, masculine and feminine etc. Then suddenly they somehow come into contact with someone who is trans or someone who is queer. Maybe they fall in love or maybe they're just friends. Then it seems like everything they were ever taught about sex, gender and sexuality is being upended. It would make sense (though it still certainly sucks) that such a person would have issues with pronouns, if they still have an understanding of sex as a part of a binary, or if they still believe that a sex assigned at birth = "real sex"; certain genitals = certain sexes and all the usual incorrect assumptions.

That's why I think that maybe reading a book or two on transguys/trans identities might be useful to put things into context for her, and bring her understanding of sex/gender outside the typical binary. At least coming from the perspective of someone who learns better with a combination of lived community experience and reading about others' identities and experiences. Personally I try to do the same with femmes as well as other queer women and/or lesbian-identified women. Hell, I enjoy doing so for any identity within the queer community because its my community. These people are important to me community-wise, so I want to get as much as I can about varying experiences, and if hearing about one experience doesn't allow it to sink in for me, then sometimes hearing about various experiences in a written context helps bring a perspective more into focus.

So maybe that could actually help your friend as well.

Also, a bit off-topic, but it's been briefly discussed in this thread the experiences of queer and/or lesbian women in relationships with transguys and the struggles they might go through. That's something that interests me, because often (at least, I've found) the struggle is maintaining a queer and/or lesbian identity while dating a transguy. The assumption is, then, that the transguy may very well identify as straight and what, then, of the queer and/or lesbian identity of a partner and her identity? I feel like for me, personally, that is a struggle I share to some extent even as a transguy/male-identified butch. How do you remain a transguy who identifies as queer who is into queer women, who doesn't identify as bi or pan, and still remain visibly queer and trans? Especially in a psychiatric-influenced trans community that still thinks that being a transguy who is into women while identifying as queer somehow is a denial of maleness or an admittance of femaleness. Maintaining visibility (and in the context of relationships) is definitely something that has concerned me and other transguys I know. I think that some transguys and their partners who are queer women and/or lesbian women may share more in some of these struggles than is often talked about...maybe people should just talk more. I dunno.

[stepfordfemme]

Also, a bit off-topic, but it's been briefly discussed in this thread the experiences of queer and/or lesbian women in relationships with transguys and the struggles they might go through. That's something that interests me, because often (at least, I've found) the struggle is maintaining a queer and/or lesbian identity while dating a transguy. The assumption is, then, that the transguy may very well identify as straight and what, then, of the queer and/or lesbian identity of a partner and her identity? I feel like for me, personally, that is a struggle I share to some extent even as a transguy/male-identified butch. How do you remain a transguy who identifies as queer who is into queer women, who doesn't identify as bi or pan, and still remain visibly queer and trans? Especially in a psychiatric-influenced trans community that still thinks that being a transguy who is into women while identifying as queer somehow is a denial of maleness or an admittance of femaleness. Maintaining visibility (and in the context of relationships) is definitely something that has concerned me and other transguys I know. I think that some transguys and their partners who are queer women and/or lesbian women may share more in some of these struggles than is often talked about...maybe people should just talk more. I dunno.

I'm curious as to why visibility is a concern?
Would love to hear more on this.

From my POV, there is no shame in stealth. If I look like part of any other hetero couple, why would I feel the need to be any other way? Why is there a need to "fly our stripes" so to speak? If a person so chooses to represent their community its their choice. But with so much fragmentation, not everyone feels that the queer community represents them.

I remember once asking my ex-partner, well didnt you do this while you were coming out and he said to me "I never came out like you, I just became who I am now". So I guess my question is.....what if you're not attached to an identity?

[Corkey]

Personally i think we could all do a little better understanding each other. I see and read a lot of female identified butches and male identified butches that could do some homework when it comes to understanding the things femmes go through when partnering with any of us. It is disheartening to me how many times i see this same scenario go down when threads like this get started. Butches vs Transguys when in realiity the female id'd butches and male id's butches arent any better with their understanding and support of femmes. It makes me sick!!!

BOOOOOOOO!!!!

I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[aishah]

i feel that the conversation on visibility is a bit off topic but relevant, and i can see both sides of it. for me, it isn't a huge deal, because i've always felt a lack of visibility regardless of who i've dated - so my feelings on invisibility are detached from my partner's id. i have a lot of complicated and difficult and upsetting emotions about invisibility. i hate being invisible. but i don't need or expect my relationship to make me visible (no queer relationship i've ever had has really made me more visible). i also don't think that stealth personally or in a relationship is a bad thing. i understand for some people their relationship is very much tied to their visibility. so i can see how those feelings might come up for them in their relationship.

for me i always id as a queer femme regardless of the gender and sexual orientation of the person i'm dating. my partner has talked about his feelings around struggling with wanting to be stealth and id as heterosexual but at the same time feeling more a sense of home in the queer community and in some ways id'ing as queer, though he is only attracted to femme women.

[Quintease]

I hate being invisible in the gay scene. I fought hard to be recognised as a lesbian, especially in my early years when lesbians would look at my long hair in distrust. Part of loving my husband was letting go of my need to be 'visible' and that hurt. Luckily he's still happy to be queer in queer spaces.

I don't have the same concerns with straight people or my family, they can think what they like. My husband is a man and my lesbian life is irrelevant when I'm with him, he's my heterosexual future.

[weatherboi]

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.





I think we all could understand that ID has nothing to do with how the heart responds to individuals. Humans have this thing called communication, perhaps communicating instead of being sick and shaming would go further. It isn't about Female id's vs Male id, and again I hate this. It has to do with facts. Just because a Butch expressed her opinion doesn't make it fact. Homework could be done by all.

[BullDog]

No I haven't made sweeping statements or generalizations. My statements are based on what I have and haven't read on bf forums for over 10 years. I have seen lots and lots of conversations by femmes trying to understand transmen and their struggles. I have seen very little about transmen educating themselves about lesbians/queer femmes, talking about needing to join support groups, how their id changes based on who they date etc.

There was an transman who just yesterday said he tried to find such conversation when he was dealing with some issues and couldn't find any.

If I have somehow missed all of these types of fascinating conversations over the years feel free to provide links so I can read them.

I also stated at least 2 or 3 times that private conversations between couples could be different.

None of my posts had anything to do with butch vs transmen. None whatsoever. Some issues will be the same, some will be different in terms of dating a transman or dating a butch.

I am out. I have real life in the real world to enjoy.

[Okiebug61]

What was the initial attraction?

[Martina]

If i were a straight girl involved with a transman, i might not want to do much research. But i would expect to want to know everything that is important about the individual man i was with. i don't think one needs to get a degree in gender studies to date a transperson. But if she is so anxious that she is needing to talk about it all the time, then some research would probably help.

i have in the past been stunned at the extent that some woman who ID as SOFFA have taken that identity. If someone told me that i had to adopt that ID in order to date a transman, i would be outta there fast.

That one's ID is as a significant OTHER, that that is cultivated and studied and developed as an identity beyond a description of one's life or sexual orientation has always been something i KNEW i could never do.

(This may no longer be the case, but back in the day, there were professional SOFFA's out there. They knew more about transitioning than they guys did, were activists, wrote newsletters, got gender studies degrees, etc.) All fine. Their choice, but they stood up in groups as the model or ideal of SOFFA'ness. i have attended meetings and events with such examplars, and at that time, i was sometimes dating transmen. It was just so not me -- that version of SOFFA. i could not even grasp it. And i really wondered what young women new to these groups were thinking they had to do and be in order to stay with their partner.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

[The_Lady_Snow]

I guess I'm not clear on what it is about entering into this relationship that automatically "queers" your straight friend? Maybe the relationship "straights" her new boyfriend.

Afterall, gender and sexuality are not the same thing. An FTM may be queer, but he is not queer necessarily.

Im confused


I thought this woman was straight?

Her dating this transman doesn't "automatically" queer her up, it's unfair at this point to say ALLL transguys are expecting this..

It's a big generalization.


Just because this particular individual is an ass clown it doesn't mean transmen here are too, each label has its ass hatery?

[JustJo]

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

Yes this...and I think it was Bete who said it up there somewhere as well.

For me, how I ID has to do with who I am...not who I date or sleep with or am partnered with.

I have lots of other opinions about other things touched on in this conversation....but I think that is a key point.

As far as the rest goes....it appears (from what little information we have) that the "straight girl" in question is possibly wearing a "Drama" nametag. Personally, I'd offer some resources and back away slowly. My only experience with someone who called me at all hours of the night in turmoil and angst turned out to be the biggest liar I've ever met, and an absolute black hole of energy and emotion.

I totally get a friend asking a friend for advice and feedback...especially if they see a common thread in that friend's situation or life. But that's different from extensive, dramatic, all-hours phone calls.

As far as the measure of whether femmes are working harder to understand trans partners or vice versa....I have no clue. I think different people learn in different ways...and just because it isn't posted on the internet doesn't mean the learning isn't happening or the effort to understand isn't being made.

[weatherboi]

I have been involved in discussions on this website in particular and have read conversations on the dash site that involved transmen and their responsibilities to themselves, their partners and their communities. It usually ends up in a conversation about our privilege and our responsibility to do more. I have always been ok with examining and owning up to it. Some of us do and some of us don't. This is true for all identities in my experience online. The OP's friend doesn't id as queer and doesnt even involve a transguy from our community so why even bring our(transguys on these forums) shortcomings or not, into it? Why is it that somebody elses struggle becomes an ok time for a member to shine a spot light on that? My proof is me, i am a feminist queer transguy that works hard on his shit. i can't speak for other ftm/transguys but my experience with my peers is some work harder than me. Lack of thread content doesn't equate transguys doing less work than femmes/people that partner up with transfolk, or there is less of an expectation on us, it just means we may process it differently or not.

Just to clarify, for me, because i have dealt with this same issue before, the sweeping generalization lies in the insinuation that lack of thread content somehow equates a lack of responsibility or accountability by transfolk/ftms/transguys on this forum or forums of past.

[BullDog]

Sweeping generalizations? How about phrases like demonizing transguys and butch vs trans? If two femmes happen to observe the same thing is it all of a sudden a femme conspiracy? Femmes against the world? Those are sweeping generalizations and very loaded and divisive language. In my book friends don't treat other friends like that no matter how much they disagree. I hope the matter can be cleared up because I do very much like you and have great respect for you and certainly do consider you a feminist.

I find the conclusions people are making about what gets discussed and what doesn't to be interesting to say the least. I am not going to comment on it any further.

[DeviantDaddy]

Seems the thread has bit busy in my absence. Amazing how discussions can open the door to numerous opinions which in turn lead to more discussions. Thank you all for partaking in this and not only adding your views but also bringing up questions.

As for the butch vs. trans topic - it is disappointing to see that something like this is coming up. It is not our intention to have such topics come up where it seems as though we are trying to box people into groups of hy, he, she, etc. The notion of sweeping generalizations regarding dating, gender and orientation is simply, weak. Every person is different, every dynamic is different and rarely will you find that one couple's journey mirrors another's. There may be similarities but it is not the same for everyone.

When I got involved with kitten, I felt responsible for explaining to her the things that set me apart from cis-men. Because it was important to me that she understood that but she took it upon herself to go a step further, and research the b-f and trans community because she knew that it was something that I am part of. It is simply the way we as individuals feel when going into a relationship. If I were to get involved with someone who had a medical condition - I would research it to better understand it. Many times I have also researched communities, dynamics and interests that someone I was interested in was involved in.

As for the OP - this thread was called a straight girl entering the queer world. Because in her decision to get involved with this man - she has entered into a new terrain. Whether he identifies as heterosexual or queer. She has been questioning her orientation. I recall her coming to me when her interest was sparked and blatantly asking me - "I'm into him, very into him, does this make me a lesbian?"

Obviously it is a question I was not able to answer for her. Such a question is opening a can of worms. But before anyone assumes that labels are something we are trying to pigeon-hole them into, understand that this isn't our intention at all. This is simply a friend who has known nothing but the heterosexual lifestyle, privileges, customs and so forth. So this has taken her for a total head spin.

As for her partner. In my honest opinion, I think he is not stepping up as he should be. But then again, that is due to my own beliefs and sense of responsibility. Everyone is different. But to address some remarks that have been made - no, he doesn't seem to be actively involved in helping, teaching or guiding.

[Corkey]

First off i just wanna say that i consider Bully my friend and shaming her would never be my intention. Her and i have had good times in real time and am sure we will have more in the future. Our opinions, feelings, and thoughts on this website do not encompass all that we are as individuals and I hope our friendship can reflect that.


Hey Corkey-

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this. Facts are important and when they don't offer any up after posting around this generalization more than twice i am gonna say something. It would be a diservice to myself if i didn't and i am not gonna sit quiet when someone wants to finger wag at me. You can do it but it isn't gonna make me stay silent about my thoughts on any subject.


IMO-The shaming stuff is starting to sound like the bullying stuff is starting to sound like the gang mentality clique stuff. A big deflection on taking responsibility for our own reactions and feelings/opinions/posts. It is ridiculous and that is my opinion, and perfectly ok for me to feel this way. It gets old and i am not gonna let it silence me. I am allowed to have a counter opinion, so are you, and so is everybody else. Calling each other bad communicators or absentee communicators is another deflection cruising towards policing how people post. I often wonder if maybe when we use this tactic if we aren't making assumptions as to how people are posting and the space they are posting from.

Your statement was shaming, good thing I have thick skin. BullDog and I may not always agree, but at least I ask for clarification from her. I don't let folks silence me either, and I'm rather blunt about it.

BullDog, you did make a blanket statement and you clarified your position. That works for me. I'm still gonna call you on blanket statements but that's how I work. I expect you to do the same for me.

As for me and mine, we talk about lots of things, most things have nothing to do with our identification. As a married couple we accommodate each other we get along just fine. *You* all probably never come into the conversations we have, but yep we have them. And if you are a friend of mine you would know how much I fight against the patriarchy.

Back to the subject. No the woman's id doesn't change when she becomes involved with any of the lgbt community. She is still a straight female. I do think those two need to have this discussion amongst themselves, as neither of them are here and we know next to nothing about them.My .02

[DaddysKitten]

She can't learn about him and what he's going through if he's going to deflect all the issues within him onto her because of her curiousity..

I wish both of them luck and you too sounds like you are trying to be a good friend to her..

Thank you very much, Snow.


From my transguy-loving femme perspective, I don't think your friend is any less straight, nor should is it her duty to be informed--as long as she understands she is dating a man.

I would just like to clarify something, that has completely gotten out of context in this forum. I have never said anything about her identity. The title of this thread simply stated she was stepping out of the norm 'straight' relationship. She is still a straight girl as far as I am concerned, because title isn't important to me. I'm a straight woman, in love with a man. Genders, sexes, this and that means nothing to me. I am not discussing titles, because titles are way too vague in such a broad spectrum of alternatives. I also identify as a queer femme depending on the discussion, and how it is going. When I discuss my man, I'm a straight girl. When it is brought up, and people ask me how I can be 'straight' given the circumstances, I tell them that according to the straight populace, I would be a queer femme. But in our relationship, since he is a MAN to me, and I am his partner/woman/kitten, that I'm just a straight girl.

I'm still confused why the OP's friend is being presumed to be queer??

You and me both. I simply stated her issues with the full acceptance of all of this. ID really never came into it until someone else brought it up, unless, as stated above, they assume I was discussing title/ID, versus experience. But then again, other things have more easily been misconstrued. Perhaps I should go with solid statement, and not poetic and unique. 'Straight girl dates transman for first time'. I just like poetry better? *shrugs*


Anyhow, a lot of this has been blown out of proportion, perhaps some were silently offended, and for that I will apologize. But I remember my questions, curiosities, and lack of understanding, very clearly, and it was unnerving. I wanted to know about him, his struggles, the little things about his every day life, especially with him being pre-op and considered in the in-between category of man and woman.

There are a lot of concerns in a relationship of two very different understandings, and I feel, that being ignorant to those things, is lacking the eagerness or desire to truly know EVERY thing about your partner. How can you truly love someone without understanding the tiniest details of what makes them, who they are?

My questions, originally four pages ago, were based on the seeking of information to help her in her journey of learning. For the fact I did not want to be the be all, end all, to her understanding. I was reaching out to understanding, at least for the most part, individuals who might be able to offer some wisdom. For those of you who did offer such, you have my sincere appreciation.

[Quintease]

It's a funny thing, the transperson and the ID of others.

I read an article recently about a happily married woman who transitioned believing her husband would leave. He didn't. At the time the article was written he didn't believe he was gay, nor did his former wife believe he was gay, despite them being two men in love.

I'm not not bisexual nor straight and I'm not the only lesbian I know who has kept her lesbian ID despite being happily partnered with a man.

As far as I know straight men tend not to question their ID when getting involved with a transwomen, pre or post op. If she says she's a woman and he's a man, then they are straight. The end.

Which is interesting as gay men will also date transwomen without changing their ID, as will gay men date pre-transition transmen.

In short it seems that sexual ID appears to be irrelevant when it comes to dating someone trans.

[Julie]

I am going to interject my personal thoughts on this.

Many years ago, I dated a stone butch. I needed to really understand what that meant. What did stone mean? She and I discussed it at great length and I discussed it with Femme's. This was my issue not hers. I needed to be sure I could handle not touching my partner - I needed to be sure I would not try and impose my feelings on her. She was stone, there was nothing for her to change about herself. There was much for me to change about myself, if I wanted to be in this relationship. It meant, I would need to learn what to do with my hands. It meant, I would not longer be exploring a female's body like I had in the past. Not once did I feel less than because of this. If I was to get into this relationship, I better know what I am getting into. We wound up being together for many years. I understood everything about her by communicating with her.

When I got involved with Dreamer, this was a completely different dynamic. Dreamer was a dominant and a sadist. What did all that mean? I read every single thing I could get my hands on. Everything. I talked to people, including Dreamer. I needed to be sure I could handle this relationship, before I entered it. It also meant Dreamer had to accept the parts of me that might not be comfortable going to certain places/spaces. It's just about communicating what is okay and what is not.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a Femme doing the research or a Straight Woman. MY GOD... If you are going to get involved with someone who you have never experienced (dynamics - trans, etc.) you better know who you are getting involved with and the dynamics associated with that person. A trans man who decides to get involved with a straight woman has the responsibility to be open in his dialogue and to welcome her questions. I have had friends who were with butches who later transitioned. The Femme's are the ones who searched out information, as much as they could - from their perspective. I hope that makes sense. A trans man cannot possibly know what it will be like for his partner. He cannot. She needs to communicate with him and ask questions to those in her community and read read read. So yes, I say - It is her responsibility since this area is so unknown to her, to get as much information as she can. It is her partners responsibility to never shame her with some of the questions she has.

Bottom line - It is about communication. I have never experienced a trans man placing this responsibility on his partner or vice versa. I have only experienced the balance. That is not to say, there are trans men who make it all about them. But there are many people in our world, who make it all about them.

Julie

[DaddysKitten]

I am going to interject my personal thoughts on this.

Many years ago, I dated a stone butch. I needed to really understand what that meant. What did stone mean? She and I discussed it at great length and I discussed it with Femme's. This was my issue not hers. I needed to be sure I could handle not touching my partner - I needed to be sure I would not try and impose my feelings on her. She was stone, there was nothing for her to change about herself. There was much for me to change about myself, if I wanted to be in this relationship. It meant, I would need to learn what to do with my hands. It meant, I would not longer be exploring a female's body like I had in the past. Not once did I feel less than because of this. If I was to get into this relationship, I better know what I am getting into. We wound up being together for many years. I understood everything about her by communicating with her.

When I got involved with Dreamer, this was a completely different dynamic. Dreamer was a dominant and a sadist. What did all that mean? I read every single thing I could get my hands on. Everything. I talked to people, including Dreamer. I needed to be sure I could handle this relationship, before I entered it. It also meant Dreamer had to accept the parts of me that might not be comfortable going to certain places/spaces. It's just about communicating what is okay and what is not.

I do not think there is anything wrong with a Femme doing the research or a Straight Woman. MY GOD... If you are going to get involved with someone who you have never experienced (dynamics - trans, etc.) you better know who you are getting involved with and the dynamics associated with that person. A trans man who decides to get involved with a straight woman has the responsibility to be open in his dialogue and to welcome her questions. I have had friends who were with butches who later transitioned. The Femme's are the ones who searched out information, as much as they could - from their perspective. I hope that makes sense. A trans man cannot possibly know what it will be like for his partner. He cannot. She needs to communicate with him and ask questions to those in her community and read read read. So yes, I say - It is her responsibility since this area is so unknown to her, to get as much information as she can. It is her partners responsibility to never shame her with some of the questions she has.

Bottom line - It is about communication. I have never experienced a trans man placing this responsibility on his partner or vice versa. I have only experienced the balance. That is not to say, there are trans men who make it all about them. But there are many people in our world, who make it all about them.

Julie

You said it perfectly, thank you, Julie.

[DeviantDaddy]

In short it seems that sexual ID appears to be irrelevant when it comes to dating someone trans.

You know, this is actually a very interesting statement you've made. When I first began my journey of embracing my identity as a transman and not a stone butch, I was partnered to a femme who identified as a femme lesbian. She was very supportive of me in my decision to proceed with this immense change yet she did make it perfectly clear that, were I to decide to transition, she would not remain by my side as my partner because she was a femme, lesbian.

This stayed with me and perhaps is why I do take interest in women's views when they begin to get to know me. Fortunately I no longer have to worry about such things... chuckles. However, when kitten and I first met it was something that I did ask her. I was very curious as to how she felt about her identity and whether or not this would change it.

No, labels aren't necessary. However we as individuals tend to find ourselves once we have already looked into the greater binary system of defining men and women, gays and straights, etc. I have always been conscious of the fact that to some, partnering with a transman can lead to some very deep soul searching for whatever reason. Their identity may come into question and I wouldn't like to downplay that in any way.

[BullDog]

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

[DeviantDaddy]

Julie, bravo. (f)

[LaneyDoll]

When I got involved with Dreamer, this was a completely different dynamic. Dreamer was a dominant and a sadist. What did all that mean? I read every single thing I could get my hands on. Everything. I talked to people, including Dreamer. I needed to be sure I could handle this relationship, before I entered it. It also meant Dreamer had to accept the parts of me that might not be comfortable going to certain places/spaces. It's just about communicating what is okay and what is not.



I did the same thing with Riley. He is a GF sub who identifies as a pup. There is a HUGE difference between a pup and submissive (or slave etc etc).

When he approached me about being his handler (pup word for mentor) I researched as much as possible. I asked questions of a friend who owns a pup.

Like Julie, I needed to be sure I could handle the relationship. Leading someone is a HUGE responsibility.

Our communication has to be intact for things to work. In time, he approached me about being his Owner (pup for Dominant). And I agreed.

But I went into each stage of our relationship with a basis of knowledge that I would not have had without doing a little bit of homework.

:sparklyheart:

[DeviantDaddy]

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

Bull, pardon my bluntness, but what your saying could be interpreted as "I love you, but have no interest in getting to know you" could it not?

[BullDog]

Bull, pardon my bluntness, but what your saying could be interpreted as "I love you, but have no interest in getting to know you" could it not?


Huh?
Me putting as much interest into getting to know her and her issues as she did mine would be me showing no interest?

[DeviantDaddy]

Huh?
Me putting as much interest into getting to know her and her issues as she did mine would be me showing no interest?

Ah, okay. Misunderstood you then. I was under the impression you were stating that you would not put forth effort in getting to know her and wouldn't expect her to do the same.

[BullDog]

Ah, okay. Misunderstood you then. I was under the impression you were stating that you would not put forth effort in getting to know her and wouldn't expect her to do the same.

the exact opposite

[Julie]

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

Bully,

That is you and that has worked for you and I am glad it has. My previous partner did not expect me to put effort into it. I was entering into a relationship and chose to learn as much about her as possible. In fact, it was effortless for me, because I loved her.

As far as wanting her to put effort into knowing me and my issues. Damn right I did. I want her to care enough about me to take the time to learn about me and my quirks/issues. When I was diagnosed with Cancer - I wanted her to know every little thing about my cancer without me having to explain it to her.

Julie

[BullDog]

Yes of course Julie. If we care about a partner or prospective partner we are going to want to get know all about them and their issues.

[DaddysKitten]

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.



I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that. It almost sounds like you would take little interest, therefor expect them to not put much effort in either. But I will not assume that is what you meant, perhaps I just read it wrong. And perhaps the wording you choose is what is making people grow semi-offensive at your comments.


I am a straight woman who always dated cis-gendered males. When I came into this with Daddy, I didn't want to change for him, I wanted to understand, as Laney and Julie have put it, that it was something I wanted to venture into. And I refused to do such blindly.

Perhaps when someone does have a particular taste, it is more natural, and just 'understood', to them. But I didn't have that understanding. Did I have the acceptance? Yes, I will thank my lesbian mother for all of that, being who she is was a lesson to me, to never judge others of alternate lifestyles/relations.

But I was a 'straight woman'. Though I jumped into the research like a new college student preparing his first 4.0 dissertation, I still had my fears. What if I wasn't ok, with all of it. And how could I make an educated decision, on what I could handle and accept, without knowing intricately every detail I could possibly learn about him.

I didn't see it as this big horrible thing called 'effort', I saw it as a way to truly begin to love him, because without knowing every detail, how can anyone say they 'love' someone as who they are? How many times, have you heard of, or been in a relationship where someone learned something new, and had to walk away? I can't say that it is something I would call 'love'. Then again, I go for it all, I refuse to settle for anything less.

Still, when Daddy and I talk about it all, his choices, his decisions, his desires in regards to everything, from going out to eat, to the surgeries he is considering, or the going on T. I ask SO many questions about it all. "ok, given your medical history, could this have adverse effects?" "is this dangerous to your existing issues?" "Did you ask about this, or that?"

If I did not take an interest in researching, and understanding those things, I would be lost, and therefor, without the reason and thought I offered him, he could possibly not think of something, that in the end could render him badly damaged for the rest of his life. Yes, this is a bit drastic in regards to most things, but if I did not know what all of this required, how could I truly ensure his safety? his well-being?

And do not take this, as me saying my Daddy is incompetent, I can see it coming already. But everyone needs another opinion, not everyone thinks up every possible detail. And this is just one way that I love him, completely.

[Parker]

Injecting your reaction is ok but I wasn't shaming anybody although if people take that feeling away from what i posted then maybe they should look further into what they stated or agreed with in the first place. I also said in my first sentence that we could all use a little more understanding of each other so your redundancy of it makes no sense to me and maybe you can clarify that? Bully and Parker both came into this thread stating and supporting sweeping sentiments about how transguys/ftms don't do as much work when in reality they don't know this.

Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi. :winky:

[BullDog]

DaddysKitten, I said I would take just as much interest as hers. Stop twisting my words. I had already clarified that, even though it was quite clear in the original post.

[DeviantDaddy]

As far as wanting her to put effort into knowing me and my issues. Damn right I did. I want her to care enough about me to take the time to learn about me and my quirks/issues. When I was diagnosed with Cancer - I wanted her to know every little thing about my cancer without me having to explain it to her.

Agreed. One of the very things that attracted me to kitten when we first met was how incredibly, eager, she was to get to know me. My past, my present and all that I wanted for my future. Then when I got ill, she took it upon herself to research it and understand it.

[weatherboi]

I did ask for clarification in the title of my original post. Harsh as it may have been asked, it does not lessen the experience of two members trying to apply a theory that makes transguys look like i/we/they don't do their homework here on these forums or for the past ten years. It was/is harsh in itself however true it may be or not. As hard as it may be for some members to hear and i am sorry that it is "butch vs. transguy" or visa versa, it can be and has been a direct result of blanket statements like that and i was merely pointing out the thin ice people were beginning to tread on. It is hard for me to watch regressive thoughts put into place about transfolk in our community for all to keep reading from here to eternity and not say anything. I just can't do it. Thanks for listening.

[DeviantDaddy]

Bull,

1. She wasn't twisting your words.
2. Your post was not clear, ergo questions.
3. Refer to the very start of her post to yours.


I'm not exactly sure what you meant by that. It almost sounds like you would take little interest, therefor expect them to not put much effort in either. But I will not assume that is what you meant, perhaps I just read it wrong. And perhaps the wording you choose is what is making people grow semi-offensive at your comments.

[Quintease]

she did make it perfectly clear that, were I to decide to transition, she would not remain by my side as my partner because she was a femme, lesbian.

I have always been conscious of the fact that to some, partnering with a transman can lead to some very deep soul searching for whatever reason. Their identity may come into question and I wouldn't like to downplay that in any way.

I think it's different when someone you already love begins to transition. It's like they're taking the person you know and love away and replacing them with someone else.

As for my ID I went through a lot of soul searching, but in the end realised I'd fallen for a person, not a gender. Had anyone told me that by 2012 I would have married a man, I would have rolled my eyes and assumed they were being homophobic. As it was, I may have married a man, but that didn't change my sexual identity at all.

[BullDog]

I haven't made any blanket statements. What has been discussed and not discussed on forums such as this is a matter of public record. Interpret it as you wish.

[BullDog]

Bull,

1. She wasn't twisting your words.
2. Your post was not clear, ergo questions.
3. Refer to the very start of her post to yours.

I have myself perfectly clear and I have also clarified time and time again.

[DaddysKitten]

DaddysKitten, I said I would take just as much interest as hers. Stop twisting my words. I had already clarified that, even though it was quite clear in the original post.

You seem to be quite volatile, when addressing others. I was not twisting anything, I was asking for clarification on your statement. And had you dropped out of defensive mode for a moment, you would have seen me very politely mentioning that perhaps you should rethink your wording a little so people are not twisting your words, or reading a different understanding of them.

It seems to be happening with many people on this forum. I am not attacking you. Please, do not read it as such. You have enough vehemence coming from others, do not add me to that list, I was anything but.

[Melissa]

I think it's different when someone you already love begins to transition. It's like they're taking the person you know and love away and replacing them with someone else.

As for my ID I went through a lot of soul searching, but in the end realised I'd fallen for a person, not a gender. Had anyone told me that by 2012 I would have married a man, I would have rolled my eyes and assumed they were being homophobic. As it was, I may have married a man, but that didn't change my sexual identity at all.

Great point Quintease. The same happened to me. I Have identified as a lesbian for over 20 years but am now married to Rufusboi who transitioned nearly two years ago. I realized quickly though that he wasn't having a personality transition and that gender and pronouns doesn't change how I feel either about him or myself or how I identify. Julie mentioned in an earlier post that it is all about communication. It doesn't matter if you have been with someone for 2 weeks or 10 years you have to talk, share fears, ask questions and figure it out together.

Melissa

[Julie]

Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi. :winky:


WOW Parker. I don't know you. But, this is just ugly. Why is someone a shit stirrer if they are expressing their feelings? Is it simply you do not agree with him? And if so, can't you just say that, without being ugly?

And why use the term "Good Girl?" Sounds a bit misogynistic to me? Why not just say - I am not going to sit down and be silent? Do only Good Girls keep their mouths shut - cause this Good Girl doesn't.

Julie

[weatherboi]

Wow you get all this from me asking about blanket statements that butches were making about transguys in this thread?? What does the duplicity thread have anything to do with this?? I had an opinion over there and it makes me a shit stirrer and i have an opinion over here and it makes me a shit stirrer??? How so??? I never told anybody to sit down and be quiet or not have an opinion. Just because i voice a counter opinion to a member doesnt make me a shit stirrer. What bait are you talking about? i get you feel this is a correct assumption of your community. I get that you think transguys do less work here. I just don't agree with it. I voiced that. Period







Man, you like to stir up some shit, walk away, then come back with some misplaced righteous indignation later, huh?

I refused to take your bait when you pulled this shit in the duplicity thread and I am not taking it now - Bulldog said something and I agreed because I have seen it - or rather, the lack of it - too. Period.

Feel free to keep on keeping on with the shaming because it isnt going to make me sit down and shut up like a good little girl - but that doesnt mean I am going to sit here, take your shit, and argue with you about something no one ever said or did either.


I guess maybe it's time for the transguys to start demonizing the butches now, huh weatherboi. :winky:

[aishah]

i have no idea what happened to this thread.

bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

other folks have observed different things and maybe don't agree. not everyone has to agree.

i'm not sure what the hell happened. i don't by any means think that bulldog needs defending, but i did want to post publicly to say that i, for one, am grateful to both her and parker for speaking up on this thread. i have learned something valuable from it.

[Ebon]

i have no idea what happened to this thread.

bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

other folks have observed different things and maybe don't agree. not everyone has to agree.

i'm not sure what the hell happened. i don't by any means think that bulldog needs defending, but i did want to post publicly to say that i, for one, am grateful to both her and parker for speaking up on this thread. i have learned something valuable from it.

Oh threads like this always get caught up like this. The point usually gets lost about 4 pages in.

[Quintease]

i have no idea what happened to this thread.
bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

Agreed. In another forum I'm a member of they're currently having a discussion on how sexism works in the lesbian culture and the fact is, it does. Denying it is pointless. Masculine and feminine are treated very differently in this world.

[Julie]

i have no idea what happened to this thread.

bulldog shared her perspective from her experience in butch/femme community that femmes often are the ones doing the research about partners in order to be more understanding, rather than ftms or butches. personally i found this insight extremely helpful because i recognize this pattern and i recognize myself in this pattern, but it's something i never stopped and thought about before. it also doesn't shock me, given how masculinity is centered in wider society. i don't see anything in bulldog's statement that tries to pit butches against transmen, or butches and transmen against femmes.

other folks have observed different things and maybe don't agree. not everyone has to agree.

i'm not sure what the hell happened. i don't by any means think that bulldog needs defending, but i did want to post publicly to say that i, for one, am grateful to both her and parker for speaking up on this thread. i have learned something valuable from it.

This is what happens in nearly all threads that discuss our community. Things go off track or get heated. It is often how we learn from one another and understand different perspectives.

It's what people do. They discuss and discuss and discuss.

What is not okay, is getting ugly and calling people names. Not okay and that needs to be called out. We all have various opinions on every subject. And personally, I think this is a beautiful thing.

I know Bully real time, as I know Weatherboi and a bunch of the other posters here. Just because we disagree with one another, does not mean we are attacking and does not mean we cannot all come together after our disagreements and share a meal.

Julie

[aishah]

i understand that threads get heated and off-topic, which is generally the point at which i choose step back publicly. however, i had sent a message to bulldog privately thanking her for her posts, and i didn't feel right about not voicing my support of what she said publicly when her words have clearly been misinterpreted.

[BullDog]

Thank you very much aishah. You do understand what I have been saying perfectly.

[Corkey]

This is what happens in nearly all threads that discuss our community. Things go off track or get heated. It is often how we learn from one another and understand different perspectives.

It's what people do. They discuss and discuss and discuss.

What is not okay, is getting ugly and calling people names. Not okay and that needs to be called out. We all have various opinions on every subject. And personally, I think this is a beautiful thing.

I know Bully real time, as I know Weatherboi and a bunch of the other posters here. Just because we disagree with one another, does not mean we are attacking and does not mean we cannot all come together after our disagreements and share a meal.

Julie

Agreed Julie. We're not all going to have those kumbiya moments, but I'll tell ya' what..I got Bully's back and weatherboi's and Ebons and Parkers, and, and.
Family often don't see eye to eye, thing is we don't have to. That doesn't mean we don't get to have differing opinions, it means we are diverse, and that in my book is always a good thing.

[BullDog]

I think it is important when we do disagree to do so respectfully. I haven't accused anyone of demonizing or starting a butch vs trans war or making blanket statements. To me that is quite different than Julie and I or Corkey and I having a different point of view and discussing things respectfully.

I believe in any relationship both partners or prospective partners have equal responsibilities. I don't think stone butches or transmen or anyone else have any less responsibility or go through any more than anyone else does. Just because someone doesn't know much about stone butch doesn't mean there is more of a burden on her to learn more about me. We are both equally responsible to learn about and understand each other.

[Words]

Just a thought...

Do these two know that their relationship is being discussed on a public forum? Does one know? Do both know? Did anyone think to ask them - both of them - if it would be okay?


Words

[Parker]

Should have used the mulit-quote feature, so I edited the multiple posts into one. Sorry about that.


WOW Parker. I don't know you. But, this is just ugly. Why is someone a shit stirrer if they are expressing their feelings? Is it simply you do not agree with him? And if so, can't you just say that, without being ugly?

And why use the term "Good Girl?" Sounds a bit misogynistic to me? Why not just say - I am not going to sit down and be silent? Do only Good Girls keep their mouths shut - cause this Good Girl doesn't.

Julie

In this patriarchal world, yes, "good girls" are expected to keep their mouths shut - which is why I used the phrase, Julie; because it FELT misogynistic to be shamed and called out like that for words and behavior that simply werent there. I was hearing "sit down and shut up like a good little girl while the rest of us talk about this because your opinion doesnt matter."

And I am not going to apologize for calling out what I see as shit-stirring when I see it simply because you are now trying to shame me by calling me ugly. Using a sweeping generalization of "butches are demonizing transguys" was in my opinion, doing nothing but stirring shit because that wasnt what was happening.

I am not telling anyone here how to behave, I would sincerely appreciate the same in return.

Thanks.


What is not okay, is getting ugly and calling people names. Not okay and that needs to be called out. We all have various opinions on every subject. And personally, I think this is a beautiful thing.

I know Bully real time, as I know Weatherboi and a bunch of the other posters here. Just because we disagree with one another, does not mean we are attacking and does not mean we cannot all come together after our disagreements and share a meal.

Julie

Actually, Julie, I never called anyone any names; you however have called me ugly more than once for calling out what I saw as shit-stirring.


Wow you get all this from me asking about blanket statements that butches were making about transguys in this thread?? What does the duplicity thread have anything to do with this?? I had an opinion over there and it makes me a shit stirrer and i have an opinion over here and it makes me a shit stirrer??? How so??? I never told anybody to sit down and be quiet or not have an opinion. Just because i voice a counter opinion to a member doesnt make me a shit stirrer. What bait are you talking about? i get you feel this is a correct assumption of your community. I get that you think transguys do less work here. I just don't agree with it. I voiced that. Period

You had more than "an opinion."

You accused butches of trying to "demonize transguys" and then tried to shame us with those accusations and some sweeping generalizations of your own.

The end.


ps - I didnt call you a shit stirrer, I said you were stirring shit. It might be splitting hairs, but I wanted to call out behavior or words you said, not call you names.

[Julie]

i understand that threads get heated and off-topic, which is generally the point at which i choose step back publicly. however, i had sent a message to bulldog privately thanking her for her posts, and i didn't feel right about not voicing my support of what she said publicly when her words have clearly been misinterpreted.

Aishah, I hope you will feel comfortable at some point in your time here, to voice your opinions publicly and not step back when things get heated and even go off-topic. Some of the best learning moments have come about, when we go off topic. It's good you sent Bulldog a private message appreciating her opinions. And you should voice your opinions... Things will always get heated here on the planet, just like they do at home sitting around the kitchen table.

Agreed Julie. We're not all going to have those kumbiya moments, but I'll tell ya' what..I got Bully's back and weatherboi's and Ebons and Parkers, and, and.
Family often don't see eye to eye, thing is we don't have to. That doesn't mean we don't get to have differing opinions, it means we are diverse, and that in my book is always a good thing.

That's right Corkey - You and I have had many differences of opinions. But still, we are always always there for one another. I love this about our community.

Some people can handle it and some cannot.

Bully - not sure why your post did not quote. Oftentimes, our words come across much different online than if we were sitting together. We miss the facial expressions and body language. You and I have not always agreed and you and I have often agreed. It's good to keep the dialogue running. Life would get so dreadful if we all just YESSED (is that a word?) one another.

Julie

[Julie]

Should have used the mulit-quote feature, so I edited the multiple posts into one. Sorry about that.




In this patriarchal world, yes, "good girls" are expected to keep their mouths shut - which is why I used the phrase, Julie; because it FELT misogynistic to be shamed and called out like that for words and behavior that simply werent there. I was hearing "sit down and shut up like a good little girl while the rest of us talk about this because your opinion doesnt matter."

And I am not going to apologize for calling out what I see as shit-stirring when I see it simply because you are now trying to shame me by calling me ugly. Using a sweeping generalization of "butches are demonizing transguys" was in my opinion, doing nothing but stirring shit because that wasnt what was happening.

I am not telling anyone here how to behave, I would sincerely appreciate the same in return.

Thanks.




Actually, Julie, I never called anyone any names; you however have called me ugly more than once for calling out what I saw as shit-stirring.




You had more than "an opinion."

You accused butches of trying to "demonize transguys" and then tried to shame us with those accusations and some sweeping generalizations of your own.

The end.


ps - I didnt call you a shit stirrer, I said you were stirring shit. It might be splitting hairs, but I wanted to call out behavior or words you said, not call you names.



Parker -- I never called you UGLY. Believe me, you would know if I did. I said your posting was UGLY and it was.

I would not expect an apology from you... Anymore than I would think you would expect one from me. I feel your writings are condescending, ugly and rude. Just my opinion.


Julie

[Parker]

Parker -- I never called you UGLY. Believe me, you would know if I did. I said your posting was UGLY and it was.

I would not expect an apology from you... Anymore than I would think you would expect one from me. I feel your writings are condescending, ugly and rude. Just my opinion.


Julie

And my opinion is that your posts towards me are the same. So at least we agree on that. lol



ps - it's really hard to argue with you because my sister's name is Julie and it feels like I am arguing with my sister. :blink:

[DaddysKitten]

Just a thought...

Do these two know that their relationship is being discussed on a public forum? Does one know? Do both know? Did anyone think to ask them - both of them - if it would be okay?


Words



This is completely anonymous, and I am sure it mimics many other relationships as well. As I stated earlier on, I had all intentions of starting this thread and directing her to it. I have since changed my mind, only because I do not want her to see the animosity shared between people I went to for a bit of support. But I will take the advice and information shared back to her, and hope it helps her, even if in a little way.

[Toughy]

Just a thought...

Do these two know that their relationship is being discussed on a public forum? Does one know? Do both know? Did anyone think to ask them - both of them - if it would be okay?


Words

I don't think it matters. We don't know their names. We don't know where they live. They are not members here. We have no way of identifying them. No privacy has been invaded.

It could be about ANY two individuals facing this issue and dealing with it.

[Toughy]

This is completely anonymous, and I am sure it mimics many other relationships as well. As I stated earlier on, I had all intentions of starting this thread and directing her to it. I have since changed my mind, only because I do not want her to see the animosity shared between people I went to for a bit of support. But I will take the advice and information shared back to her, and hope it helps her, even if in a little way.

Please do not take the responses in this thread as animosity. We are a messy bunch who speak our minds. None of it is directed/personal towards you or your Daddy.

There is history (good and bad) between some of these folks and it tends to rear it's head in places you would never expect. Most of us have known each other at least 10 yrs and we forget how we could look to new folks.

The written word is a flat media without body language and facial expressions to help understand tone and intent. That plays a big part in how words are 'heard'.

[DaddysKitten]

Please do not take the responses in this thread as animosity. We are a messy bunch who speak our minds. None of it is directed/personal towards you or your Daddy.

There is history (good and bad) between some of these folks and it tends to rear it's head in places you would never expect. Most of us have known each other at least 10 yrs and we forget how we could look to new folks.

The written word is a flat media without body language and facial expressions to help understand tone and intent. That plays a big part in how words are 'heard'.

No no no. I did not take it 'personal' at all. I was just hoping for a bit more positive reinforcement, and it has gone completely off task immediately. I am enjoying it, but knowing her, it would scare her. That is all.

[Corkey]

This is completely anonymous, and I am sure it mimics many other relationships as well. As I stated earlier on, I had all intentions of starting this thread and directing her to it. I have since changed my mind, only because I do not want her to see the animosity shared between people I went to for a bit of support. But I will take the advice and information shared back to her, and hope it helps her, even if in a little way.

Please don't take this wrong, but all of us talking and being blunt isn't animosity, it's folks who are passionate about their opinions. I'm still friends with Bully and Parker and Julie and weatherboi, and everyone else who has a different opinion than I do. No one can see beyond the screen, so sometimes our passionate responses are taken wrong, which is why I asked for clarification, and I got it. I'd still go to dinner with them and have a brew, or whatever.
Sometimes family yell, just 'cause we yell doesn't mean we don't like one another.

[Corkey]

Please do not take the responses in this thread as animosity. We are a messy bunch who speak our minds. None of it is directed/personal towards you or your Daddy.

There is history (good and bad) between some of these folks and it tends to rear it's head in places you would never expect. Most of us have known each other at least 10 yrs and we forget how we could look to new folks.

The written word is a flat media without body language and facial expressions to help understand tone and intent. That plays a big part in how words are 'heard'.

Are you sure we aren't related?

[Toughy]

No no no. I did not take it 'personal' at all. I was just hoping for a bit more positive reinforcement, and it has gone completely off task immediately. I am enjoying it, but knowing her, it would scare her. That is all.


laughin...............welcome to the Planet....I have never seen a thread not get side-tracked...........some sooner than others...........:seeingstars:

[Parker]

You know, at this point, I feel like I am adding to the shit-stirring, not stopping it; because this back and forth isnt helping or solving anything. Since I need to lie down anyway, I'm just going to check out of the thread.

I am not trans, femme, or straight and all I tried to do was agree with someone and then got accused of all sorts of crazy shit so I ran with it. But while I am not sitting down and shutting up ( :winky: ) I'm just going to take a step back so you all can get beyond the side-track and continue with your discussion - cool?

Btw - Corkey and Toughy hit the nail on the head - we argue and fight but I, for one, was never mad - just ramming away like the Aries that I am .... and during all that Mercury in Retrograde stuff too.

Later :)

[Gemme]

I am a stone butch. I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues. I've also made it quite clear that no one should ever have to change because of me. It will only work if we are compatible and we both are true to ourselves.

I know Bully came in and clarified when folks got up in arms about her saying this, but I've got to say...am I the only one who read it as she typed it? Y'all, I wear coke bottle glasses and I saw this clear as day (not Day, who has been MIA).

Please see the underlined text.

To me, this one point (and only this one point....I'm not touching the other mess) is saying that ALL parties involved with one another should EQUALLY attempt to learn about the other and the other's affiliations/presentation/id/family/etc. That one side should not put more effort or energy into this than the other; that it should be BALANCED.

How does that turn into 'disinterest'?

:glasses:

[Corkey]

You know, at this point, I feel like I am adding to the shit-stirring, not stopping it; because this back and forth isnt helping or solving anything. Since I need to lie down anyway, I'm just going to check out of the thread.

I am not trans, femme, or straight and all I tried to do was agree with someone and then got accused of all sorts of crazy shit so I ran with it. But while I am not sitting down and shutting up ( :winky: ) I'm just going to take a step back so you all can get beyond the side-track and continue with your discussion - cool?

Btw - Corkey and Toughy hit the nail on the head - we argue and fight but I, for one, was never mad - just ramming away like the Aries that I am .... and during all that Mercury in Retrograde stuff too.

Later :)


You should know better LOL

[BullDog]

I know Bully came in and clarified when folks got up in arms about her saying this, but I've got to say...am I the only one who read it as she typed it? Y'all, I wear coke bottle glasses and I saw this clear as day (not Day, who has been MIA).

Please see the underlined text.

To me, this one point (and only this one point....I'm not touching the other mess) is saying that ALL parties involved with one another should EQUALLY attempt to learn about the other and the other's affiliations/presentation/id/family/etc. That one side should not put more effort or energy into this than the other; that it should be BALANCED.

How does that turn into 'disinterest'?

:glasses:

Thank you Gemme. I don't know how it could have been any clearer. That's why it felt like ill intent to call it disinterest.

[Parker]

You should know better LOL

lol, I know right?

[Gemme]

Thank you Gemme. I don't know how it could have been any clearer. That's why it felt like ill intent to call it disinterest.

I think folks read it with their emotions. Or maybe they need to borrow my glasses. For their sakes, I hope not. :|

As it's been said in the last few posts, emotions get high and we're all pretty vocal about our beliefs. It just doesn't help the matter when things get discombolutated and taken wrong. Luckily, it seems as if things will get back on track here pretty soon.

[Julie]

And my opinion is that your posts towards me are the same. So at least we agree on that. lol



ps - it's really hard to argue with you because my sister's name is Julie and it feels like I am arguing with my sister. :blink:


Even better Parker. Siblings argue all the time.
My sister's name is Dana and she is not speaking to me - because we argue LOL.

Julie

[Julie]

Please don't take this wrong, but all of us talking and being blunt isn't animosity, it's folks who are passionate about their opinions. I'm still friends with Bully and Parker and Julie and weatherboi, and everyone else who has a different opinion than I do. No one can see beyond the screen, so sometimes our passionate responses are taken wrong, which is why I asked for clarification, and I got it. I'd still go to dinner with them and have a brew, or whatever.
Sometimes family yell, just 'cause we yell doesn't mean we don't like one another.

Not to get off topic - But I am not having Brew. It leaves an ugly taste in my mouth.

LOL

[Corkey]

Not to get off topic - But I am not having Brew. It leaves an ugly taste in my mouth.

LOL

Umbrella drink or up?

[Parker]

Ugh - I hate when I'm on the top of a page and I didnt quote anyone - it's like I'm talking to myself! lol

Even better Parker. Siblings argue all the time.
My sister's name is Dana and she is not speaking to me - because we argue LOL.

Julie
My sis and I are polar opposites and fought like cats and dogs when we were little - but thankfully, we're good friends now. :)

Mercury in retrograde, you have my sister's name ... it was like gas on a fire - I didnt stand a chance! lol :winky:

[Julie]

Umbrella drink or up?

No Umbrella please. Not that kind of girl.
I would prefer a Bombay with Tonic - Twist of Lemon, Lime and Orange.

:|

[Parker]

I'm more of a chocolate martini butch. :winky:
Ugh - but not today, my stomach has been pissed since Saturday. :(

[Julie]

My sis and I are polar opposites and fought like cats and dogs when we were little - but thankfully, we're good friends now. :)

Mercury in retrograde, you have my sister's name ... it was like gas on a fire - I didnt stand a chance! lol :winky:


Add PMS to the equation and you are lucky you are breathing LOL

In all seriousness. We all get emotional and have our opinions here. We are a hot headed passionate group who have genuine love for one another (well some) and it's really okay. Often we confuse people's intent because the lack of physical expression. If you saw my eyes, you would not need to even see body language - they speak volumes. But you cannot see mine or Bully's or Weatherboi's or Corkey's or any person here. The one issue with online.

Perhaps we could get Medusa to just have an EYE cam - then we could see more. Eeeeeeeeeeeek - lol - My eyes are puffy.

Julie

[Corkey]

Add PMS to the equation and you are lucky you are breathing LOL

In all seriousness. We all get emotional and have our opinions here. We are a hot headed passionate group who have genuine love for one another (well some) and it's really okay. Often we confuse people's intent because the lack of physical expression. If you saw my eyes, you would not need to even see body language - they speak volumes. But you cannot see mine or Bully's or Weatherboi's or Corkey's or any person here. The one issue with online.

Perhaps we could get Medusa to just have an EYE cam - then we could see more. Eeeeeeeeeeeek - lol - My eyes are puffy.

Julie

Oh sweet jeebus no, I haven't combed my hair and look like Dennis the Menace!

[Gemme]

No Umbrella please. Not that kind of girl.
I would prefer a Bombay with Tonic - Twist of Lemon, Lime and Orange.

:|

I'll take the umbrella drinks. The sweeter and more ridiculous named drinks are my thang.

[DeviantDaddy]

I'll take a bottle of whiskey, please.

... with a straw... laughs.

[Corkey]

I'll take a bottle of whiskey, please.

... with a straw... laughs.

Yer just itchin' for a hang over huh?

[Julie]

Oh sweet jeebus no, I haven't combed my hair and look like Dennis the Menace!

Here is a perfect example of not reading an entire post LOL - Corkey - just your eyes. An EYE cam. See how things can get twisted round these here parts :seeingstars:

LOL

I'll take the umbrella drinks. The sweeter and more ridiculous named drinks are my thang.

I figured you for a fruity girl type of drink. UhHuh. No disrespect to those who are of the more masculine energy types who prefer fruity umbrella sweet drinks.

:-)

[Corkey]

Here is a perfect example of not reading an entire post LOL - Corkey - just your eyes. An EYE cam. See how things can get twisted round these here parts :seeingstars:

LOL



I figured you for a fruity girl type of drink. UhHuh. No disrespect to those who are of the more masculine energy types who prefer fruity umbrella sweet drinks.

:-)

Mah eyes are hairy..... all white.LOL

[Gemme]

Here is a perfect example of not reading an entire post LOL - Corkey - just your eyes. An EYE cam. See how things can get twisted round these here parts :seeingstars:

LOL



I figured you for a fruity girl type of drink. UhHuh. No disrespect to those who are of the more masculine energy types who prefer fruity umbrella sweet drinks.

:-)

How do you think I got this sweet? Sugar and alcohol and sugary alcohol all the way.

:cheesy:

:|

[Chancie]

Like someone said, some of us have known each other for ten years, and I am one of those people.

In general, I think new members should be expected to show respect for the culture of our community, but

Many of you have posted as though you have completely forgotten what it's like to be in a new kind of relationship.

Believe me, I remember, and it was more than 25 years ago.

I remember thinking that everyone could tell that I was with a woman, which is how I thought of my relationship at that time.

I grew up in a political progressive family in a diverse neighborhood in a cosmopolitan city, and

I knew that my life was going to be different than my sister's and my cousins' lives, and that it might not be easy.

I read everything I could get my hands on, and I tried to make friends with every lesbian I met, and guess what?

Some of them were just as rigid and uncompromising as some of you.

[Corkey]

Speaking for myself, I don't compromise my principals. Never will, that doesn't mean someone else can't do so.
Rigid, perhaps, but it works for me.

[weatherboi]

I never said butches demonize transguys. I asked

"Wow are the butches gonna demonize the transguys?"

A viable question at the time considering all that was being said and what I feared might be said and where it was heading. I won't apologize for that.

It is against the TOS to drag drama from other threads and name call just in case people forgot or think it is important. I think it is important since it is me getting name called and having my own shit drug around from space to space and getting accused of shaming.

Thanks for listening!

[Toughy]

I know Bully came in and clarified when folks got up in arms about her saying this, but I've got to say...am I the only one who read it as she typed it? Y'all, I wear coke bottle glasses and I saw this clear as day (not Day, who has been MIA).

Please see the underlined text. I'm putting the underlined text here: I never felt anyone should have to put more effort into understanding me or my issues anymore than I would put effort into understanding them and their issues.

To me, this one point (and only this one point....I'm not touching the other mess) is saying that ALL parties involved with one another should EQUALLY attempt to learn about the other and the other's affiliations/presentation/id/family/etc. That one side should not put more effort or energy into this than the other; that it should be BALANCED.

How does that turn into 'disinterest'?

:glasses:


I read that underlined text to mean disinterest on first read. I knew Bully did not really think that so I re-read it and re-read it and still had a hard time understanding what Bully meant. I chalked it up to poor sentence structure because I know that disinterest is not what Bully meant....been reading her too many years to think that....

it's all good in the 'hood.....

[BullDog]

LOL Toughy. Maybe you can teach me how to write. How that sentence could possibly mean disinterest is completely beyond me.

[LaneyDoll]

I'll take the umbrella drinks. The sweeter and more ridiculous named drinks are my thang.

I am going to sit with Gemme!!! I love the umbrella drinks with sexy names. Unless I am having shots, then it better be tequila (Patron please) or Jägermeister.

:sparklyheart:

[Julie]

LOL Toughy. Maybe you can teach me how to write. How that sentence could possibly mean disinterest is completely beyond me.

Bully - I read it the same way. And that did not make sense, based on my personal experience with you.

Julie

[BullDog]

This is beyond ridiculous.

LOL apparently now I don't know how to write. Go tell all my writing clients that.

This is all truly laughable and fucked up.

Have fun on the internet y'all.

[Julie]

This is beyond ridiculous.

LOL apparently now I don't know how to write. Go tell all my writing clients that.

This is all truly laughable and fucked up.

Have fun on the internet y'all.

WOW Bully. It was just misinterpreting your words. I read it wrong. I misunderstood it. It happens all the time on forums. That is why we talk it through.

Nobody said you didn't know how to write. I was an editor for a magazine years ago and my words do not always come off the way I mean for them to be. Does not mean I do not know how to write. Hopefully if someone does not understand, they ask.

Julie

[apretty]

i had no problem understanding Bulldog's post--the words are fine and given the context, the meaning is clearer than half the posts in this thread.

on-topic, a lot of the discussion seems super invested in what someone else's relationship looks like when really, if it doesn't work out, it's just wasn't a match.

to be clear, the working-out will never hinge on her doing more trans-stuff homework. i mean really, where's the thread where we ring our hands over the man not doing his femme-stuff homework?

[BullDog]

to be clear, the working-out will never hinge on her doing more trans-stuff homework. i mean really, where's the thread where we ring our hands over the man not doing his femme-stuff homework?

Precisely. I rarely- if ever- see it. I haven't for over 10 years.

When I started reading this thread I saw it going down the path of so many others I have seen over the years and who was expected to do what. That is what prompted me. If you (the general you) think I am out of turn to talk about then fine, you can think that about me.

[DaddysKitten]

I read that underlined text to mean disinterest on first read. I knew Bully did not really think that so I re-read it and re-read it and still had a hard time understanding what Bully meant. I chalked it up to poor sentence structure because I know that disinterest is not what Bully meant....been reading her too many years to think that....

it's all good in the 'hood.....

As I stated exactly myself, and I do not know her well enough to read her that way. It's why I addressed it respectfully, and pointed out where the miscommunication would come from.

[weatherboi]

So what if there are not as many threads about transguys wringing their hands over this. It doesn't equate to transguys here not doing their work or that we are doing it wrong.

[Corkey]

I think it's awfully telling that our mates are the only ones that should be telling us if we're doing it wrong, and I just don't see that happening. Because frankly hers is the only opinion that matters to me.

[DaddysKitten]

I quoted the wrong part of the quote, lol


I have to disagree, coming from someone who was in this exact predicament myself, many years ago. We see straight couples, every day from birth, just about. We see straight couples on TV. We see straight couples at the grocery store. It's something we are surrounded with every day of our lives, especially if we step outside.

We understand how it works, we understand the underlying issues they are faced. It definitely makes it easier from that standpoint, to learn directly about the person, and not the daily struggles they find themselves facing, especially if they do not 'appear' to the basic concensus as hetero-cis-gendered-straight people. And yes, every relationship faces this.

But what a straight cis-gendered person may never see, or know they see, is a transman or transwoman, and definitely not enough to even begin to understand their day to day life. Much less the deeper fundamentals that make them the individual they are, or how they came to this understanding of themselves.

Even being raised by both my parents, til age 11, and then by my lesbian mother from then on, I had almost next to no understanding, or even knowledge of transgenders. Hell, it took me years to understand that my mother and her lover were lovers. Not everyone is worldly knowledgable of such things. Hell, I thought I could be pregnant when I was kissed at 14. So what a lot of people consider 'common knowledge' especially, as Chancie stated as well.

So we can love someone, but can you truly appreciate someone for all they are, if you lack the basic understanding, as stated with a 'trans' person. Someone who has struggled, more often than not with what is considered 'normal', even amongst their own lesbian/gay/queer brethren. I don't believe this is just 'ok, I'm trans, I love you, that's all you need to know'.

Many have been assaulted for who they are, many have even been killed for who they are. Many have been insulted and put down for their entire lives, many have fought tooth and nail for their rights, and still do. Many have spent countless nights in tears, sobbing, over the confusion, insult, looks, and whatever else they face day to day.

I couldn't say I loved someone, and truly so if I did not wish to know what the person, and others alike, have faced. I would simply lack the understanding, and with a lack of understanding comes a lack of ability to tend the one you love.

I remember, being new to my relationship. I remember the swift inhale of his breath when I would say something out of my ignorance for it all, and though he was so loving and patient, it killed me to make those innocent mistakes because it did bother him. And I never wanted to see him unhappy, or even tinged with a tightening of 'she did that thing'.

So yes, we spent countless hours talking to each other, countless hours of him lecturing me like some college professor who had a very intrigued pupil. I remember the night he told me that he had been jumped by men who had said 'wanna be a man! Fine, we'll teach you how to be a man!' I lay there in bed on the phone, hearing his story, and sobbed silently.

How could they? Why would they? I remember reading his blog post about pumping gas, and how a couple men sat by their work truck laughing and pointing at him. I was infuriated, I wanted to be there to yell at them 'what the fuck are you looking at!?' and then climb all over him and make them envy the person they saw as some freak.

Can we truly not understand these daily struggles, that our lovers face, and support them in all ways in who they are? Do we just expect them to come out and say 'oh yea, by the way, if anyone ever comes to assault me for being who I am, just run'?

I wish communication in a new relationship was that easy. But the non-fairy tale fact of it is, that it is not. Many would see shame in that, many would be afraid the person they love would run. Or be scared to be out in public with them because of these fears.

If I am with someone who has a certain disease, I research it. If I am with someone who has a special needs child, I research it. If I am with someone who has a particular kink, or fancy, I research it. It allowed me to know the questions to ask. As with my relationship, before I was educated enough to really grasp a thorough understanding of it, I didn't have a clue.

But when I went to Daddy and asked him, this and that, and everything else I had read up on, and asked him to clarify, he told me that I took more interest in understanding his issues than any of the women he had ever dealt with before who did live this life, for the majority of their time on this earth, in alternate lifestyles, and even they did not grasp the things I wanted to grasp, and sought the information for, to grasp.

So no, you don't treat someone like a freak or a lab rat because you want to understand their ideals on a variety of things. It's major major interest in knowing everything an individual faces. I know about the straight cis-world. I lived it my entire life. This was new to me, and I wanted to absorb all I could, to better serve him as my partner, my lover, someone I wanted to know every little detail of.

[Mike]

just to be clear, i have posted in many threads that i think the trans guy should do his homeowrk on himself and his partner. Shes in a transition period too. I have said many times, thst i think the trans guys need that time alone, to find themm self. I think one of my post years ago my words rang as something like this, far to often i see where the partner of ftms are doing all the home work, they know when and where the next appointment is, what his T dose is and so on. better than he does.

I am not saying some guys dont do it differently, and hoepfully its changed some, but it use to be far to many depending on the partner to do all the figuring out if you will. I do think the partner needs to ask the questions, noone is a mind reader. but she needs to take care of herself in the same respect.

[DeviantDaddy]

But when I went to Daddy and asked him, this and that, and everything else I had read up on, and asked him to clarify, he told me that I took more interest in understanding his issues than any of the women he had ever dealt with before who did live this life, for the majority of their time on this earth, in alternate lifestyles, and even they did not grasp the things I wanted to grasp, and sought the information for, to grasp.

So no, you don't treat someone like a freak or a lab rat because you want to understand their ideals on a variety of things. It's major major interest in knowing everything an individual faces. I know about the straight cis-world. I lived it my entire life. This was new to me, and I wanted to absorb all I could, to better serve him as my partner, my lover, someone I wanted to know every little detail of.

One, of the many reasons, why I treasure you. (f)


As for the debate in regards to transmen researching their heterosexual partners... I can understand the need for many of us who identify as TG to want to know more about their new lady. Of course I took it upon myself to take the time to know exactly how our relationship was effecting, kitten. But in all truth, it is very likely that the reason for there being few posts about such a thing is because straight women are something we grow up with. No matter your home/family specifics, you will be surrounded at school, work, stores, groups, etc.

[DaddysKitten]

We are not talking about a 'femme', we are talking about a woman who is a cis-gendered female straight girl. Not a femme, who has already identified with something outside of what is cis-normal. Assuming she is a femme, since this is the constant talk about where the trans-man should focus his studies on, pushes this straight girl into a category of acknowledging and understanding some sort of queer lifestyle she is accustomed to. She is not. In fact, she doesn't even know what a 'femme' is. This is a straight girl.

I feel like, when you refer to her as a femme, you are IDing her, and she has not gotten anywhere near that point in her exploration to identify with it, and also states, in some manner a base knowledge of what this encompasses. But this is base knowledge she has yet to develop.

Am I disagreeing, that he should understand femmes better. Well no, but to me, it's like saying men need to study women, and women need to study men. It's kind of... common sense that in order to be with anyone, you need to understand their basic fundamentals. But no one ever knows everything about anyone, no matter their ID or orientation.

He has been around cis-gendered straight women all of his life, he needs to learn her and understand her. But that is a given in any relationship of any capacity. Please refer to my previous post before this one, to understand where I am coming from with the importance of such.

[Mike]

We are not talking about a 'femme', we are talking about a woman who is a cis-gendered female straight girl. Not a femme, who has already identified with something outside of what is cis-normal. Assuming she is a femme, since this is the constant talk about where the trans-man should focus his studies on, pushes this straight girl into a category of acknowledging and understanding some sort of queer lifestyle she is accustomed to. She is not. In fact, she doesn't even know what a 'femme' is. This is a straight girl.

I feel like, when you refer to her as a femme, you are IDing her, and she has not gotten anywhere near that point in her exploration to identify with it, and also states, in some manner a base knowledge of what this encompasses. But this is base knowledge she has yet to develop.

Am I disagreeing, that he should understand femmes better. Well no, but to me, it's like saying men need to study women, and women need to study men. It's kind of... common sense that in order to be with anyone, you need to understand their basic fundamentals. But no one ever knows everything about anyone, no matter their ID or orientation.

He has been around cis-gendered straight women all of his life, he needs to learn her and understand her. But that is a given in any relationship of any capacity. Please refer to my previous post before this one, to understand where I am coming from with the importance of such.

I get that you dont think she calls herself a femme, but i disagree in the fact that cis women, dont know what femme is or girly girly even. I have spend most of my life in the str8* world dated a string of str8* women, in a 17 year relationship with one. Never had a one question who they where when dating me. I could just be wrong or lucky and all that but i dont think its matters to them what anyone ids as. They just know they fell in love and its what it is. I am trying to recall if any of them used the word Femme, i do know some of them used girly girl.

[DaddysKitten]

I get that you dont think she calls herself a femme, but i disagree in the fact that cis women, dont know what femme is or girly girly even. I have spend most of my life in the str8* world dated a string of str8* women, in a 17 year relationship with one. Never had a one question who they where when dating me. I could just be wrong or lucky and all that but i dont think its matters to them what anyone ids as. They just know they fell in love and its what it is. I am trying to recall if any of them used the word Femme, i do know they used girly girl.



Actually, she called her transman a femme, she thought it simply meant female. So no, she does not. The blush was actually kinda funny when I told her that was not the case.

[Mike]

Actually, she called her transman a femme, she thought it simply meant female. So no, she does not. The blush was actually kinda funny when I told her that was not the case.

OHHHHHHHHHHHH Can we just slide her a dictonary with all the kewl words higlighted?

[Mike]

I read Bulldog as saying that both should do the work too, so I was kinda surprised that this whole thing went South (not really!)

I also think (not new for me to express this opinion) that we, in the broader spectrum, by which I mean "not all" tend to be a bit masculine-centric in this community. Deferring to, expecting to be deferred to (Not All Butches & Men here). But it happens, and to pretend otherwise could be a little crazy making.

I don't like to see any of us put under the umbrella of "All good/All bad" because it just doesn't fit. So many really good Femme's (even the bossy ones!), Butches (regardless of pro-nouns) and Men (Straight or Queer).

I also got when Parker used the term "good girl and sit down" because I know that Parker is Female ID'd. She was using a term I myself have used. I found it refreshing that a Butch used that phrase, but before you get all puffed up and shit, I didn't agree with your entire ideology or technique. That's okay, mine sucks sometimes too. ;)

As a member here (as in, me, June) I am not too comfortable when folks come on the forums and right away start talking about "This friend of mine" or "OMG, my girlfriend left me and I am going to ask a bunch of complete strangers what I should do about it".

With that said, Welcome to the Planet, DK & DD. Regardless how you identify, the foundation of this forum (Butch/Femme) must resonate with both of you or you wouldn't be here :)

--June

PS - The Moderator part of me loved seeing this thread mostly pull out of a nosedive, and hopes that will continue.

June, get outta my head :)

[MissItalianDiva]

I read this thread when it was first posted but resisted the urge to put in my two sense and now have just read the rest (wishing I had not) and now have a headache.

Here is my two sense. Honestly I don't see why this is posted here. Frankly I would be a bit offended if I was your friend and you had posted my business on a forum without my knowledge. Sure it was done anonymously but the principle behind this would be an issue for me.

Secondly I really don't see why this is something you are concerning yourself with. It is their life and their relationship. What they choose to do or not do is theirs alone. If love is enough if even in the moment well then so be it. Life is a learning experience and sometimes just living in the moment is the best thing to do and when it isn't then it blows up in our face and we learn a life lesson...hopefully. Let them find what works or isn't working for them. I think sometimes we want to play protector or educator to folks who are going through something we have encountered previously because it may have ended bad for us or someone we know but sometimes it just needs to take it's own natural direction.

[Quintease]

I think it's been really interesting.

There isn't a lot of help out there for a girl dating a transman regardless of her ID. My husband and I have come up against a lot of weird reactions, from lesbians who think I should leave the lesbian community to straight people who think I have no 'right' to call myself gay. At least I have the benefit of 17 years of queer culture. Aside from a willingness to fall in love, what does this girl have? The least she should expect is that her friends are able to offer her advice from an educated place.

There should be more discussions like this.

[DaddysKitten]

Secondly I really don't see why this is something you are concerning yourself with. It is their life and their relationship. What they choose to do or not do is theirs alone. If love is enough if even in the moment well then so be it. Life is a learning experience and sometimes just living in the moment is the best thing to do and when it isn't then it blows up in our face and we learn a life lesson...hopefully. Let them find what works or isn't working for them. I think sometimes we want to play protector or educator to folks who are going through something we have encountered previously because it may have ended bad for us or someone we know but sometimes it just needs to take it's own natural direction.

As I have stated multiple times before, she has come to me for a shoulder, help, and advice in all of this, and I feel as if I have reached a point where I am not well versed enough in everything to help her with such. As for the posting on a public forum, I appreciate your opinion, but it was a choice I made, along with my Daddy, and I stand behind that fully. My intentions were not cruel, or even drama based, therefor it was positive, even if not everyone agrees.

I think it's been really interesting.

There isn't a lot of help out there for a girl dating a transman regardless of her ID. My husband and I have come up against a lot of weird reactions, from lesbians who think I should leave the lesbian community to straight people who think I have no 'right' to call myself gay. At least I have the benefit of 17 years of queer culture. Aside from a willingness to fall in love, what does this girl have? The least she should expect is that her friends are able to offer her advice from an educated place.

There should be more discussions like this.


I completely agree, and as I have stated, it is why I am here, whether everyone agrees on the honorable notion of such, or not. I am finding myself unable to give her what she needs as a friend, and that is more knowledge and understanding, and I am reaching out to people who would not be able to judge her, versus the cis-gendered straight family and friends she is turning to, who are judging the both of them, and adding even more hellstone to the flames. Even if she never bothers to read the post, which she has been given the information to direct herself to it, there is someone out there who may learn something from the discussion.

Having been in this position myself, I found the forums very very helpful in learning and understanding things, I did not know before hand.

[DeviantDaddy]

Secondly I really don't see why this is something you are concerning yourself with. It is their life and their relationship. What they choose to do or not do is theirs alone. If love is enough if even in the moment well then so be it. Life is a learning experience and sometimes just living in the moment is the best thing to do and when it isn't then it blows up in our face and we learn a life lesson...hopefully. Let them find what works or isn't working for them. I think sometimes we want to play protector or educator to folks who are going through something we have encountered previously because it may have ended bad for us or someone we know but sometimes it just needs to take it's own natural direction.

That is actually a simple answer: we are interested in offering her different venues of informing herself on the subject. She and I have been friends for years and I care for her. Perhaps our meaning of friendship differs, Diva. When a close friend finds herself confused and reaches out to me, I will be there. Certainly there is a limit to things. I can only offer her an ear and different insights - but what she does with it, in and out of their relationship, is her decision. I can only provide her with training wheels, the rest is on her.

[Melissa]

I think it's been really interesting.

There isn't a lot of help out there for a girl dating a transman regardless of her ID. My husband and I have come up against a lot of weird reactions, from lesbians who think I should leave the lesbian community to straight people who think I have no 'right' to call myself gay. At least I have the benefit of 17 years of queer culture. Aside from a willingness to fall in love, what does this girl have? The least she should expect is that her friends are able to offer her advice from an educated place.

There should be more discussions like this.



I have also found it very interesting. I have also found a lot of transphobia directed at both me and my husband including from friends who now view me as having crossed over to the dark side of heterosexuality or view Rufus and all ftms as somehow betraying women or the queer community. I think having been in the queer community for many years, knowing many trans identified people, ftms, mtfs over the years made Rufus' transition smooth for me. The straight woman who is the subject of this thread didn't have any of that. I think her friends kitten and Deviant Daddy are trying to help her and I commend them for that. I think a lot of partners of ftms may end up feeling isolated especially if they get negative reactions from friends and family. The fact is that partners do go through a transition period too, especially if the transition happens during a relationship.

Melissa

[Softhearted]

From what I gather from the informations provided by the OP, her friend is attracted or wants to get involved with someone who seems to have his own personal issues not clarified or staighten out.

Regardless of one's sex, gender, ID, sexual orientation, etc... the main question I would ask myself is: Is the person with many unclarified thoughts about their own person even "available" to get involved into a romantic relationship?

just my .02 cents

[Julie]

As I have stated multiple times before, she has come to me for a shoulder, help, and advice in all of this, and I feel as if I have reached a point where I am not well versed enough in everything to help her with such. As for the posting on a public forum, I appreciate your opinion, but it was a choice I made, along with my Daddy, and I stand behind that fully. My intentions were not cruel, or even drama based, therefor it was positive, even if not everyone agrees.

You are obviously a good friend and someone she trusts. You came to your community where you could possibly get some insight. There is nothing wrong with that. You did not give names (that I recall) or personal information about this couple.

I hope your friends is able to figure this out for herself and her partner (future). She sounds like an open minded individual who is looking outside the box and stepping outside of her comfort zone. Good for her.

Julie

[DaddysKitten]

Regardless of one's sex, gender, ID, sexual orientation, etc... the main question I would ask myself is: Is the person with many unclarified thoughts about their own person even "available" to get involved into a romantic relationship?
just my .02 cents

I get that, but because someone is making a bad decision doesn't mean I will stop being their friend. Obviously the relationship is going on. Obviously the 'logic' is no longer the issue. But really, be this the case or not, it doesn't stop the fact she needs someone to lean on, and information shared.

You are obviously a good friend and someone she trusts. You came to your community where you could possibly get some insight. There is nothing wrong with that. You did not give names (that I recall) or personal information about this couple.

I hope your friends is able to figure this out for herself and her partner (future). She sounds like an open minded individual who is looking outside the box and stepping outside of her comfort zone. Good for her.

Julie


Thank you, Julie.

[Softhearted]

[QUOTE=DaddysKitten;546955]I get that, but because someone is making a bad decision doesn't mean I will stop being their friend. Obviously the relationship is going on. Obviously the 'logic' is no longer the issue. But really, be this the case or not, it doesn't stop the fact she needs someone to lean on, and information shared.

I never said that you should stop being her friend?!??!???? Where did I ever say that?

I was only offering an opinion about what I would tell my friend: are you ready to get involved with someone who own issues are not clarified? What ever her answer is, I would not stop being her friend... geee.... It was a general thought, not specific to your case....

[G Snap!]

I am new to the site and am reading this thread because, well, it could be me who started it! Let me start off by giving a little info about myself...

I have been straight until I met my guy (a transman, FTM, etc.) almost two years ago. I had been good friends, gosh, great friends, with a lesbian for years and met him (through her) several years before we started dating. I consider myself extremely open-minded, it takes that for a straight girl to call a lesbian her best friend. When I first met him he was in his "teenage" stage and a randy bastard. Ready to f*ck and party. In the two year period between then and when we started dating, he settled down a little (was living with someone) but the relationship was open. I have always been attracted to him since we met, but I was in a relationship (with a bio guy) and I never acted on it. Until we got left alone one day and... * blush*

When we started dating I had questions about FTM's and the transgender process. He answered most of them and I researched it on the internet - the internet has some great information, and it did lead me to the BFP page.
I think the "hardest" part - for me - was how to label myself, how I identified in this whole butch, femme, stone, lipstick, whatever stuff. It took a little time, but I still call myself straight because I am attracted to men and our relationship is straight. I will tell you "I am gay because I am very happy, thank you!"

In my research I didn't find a whole lot about straight girls dating trans men. I think this is such a grey area, because it depends what side you look upon it from. And how personal you want to get with questions (ranging from how far in the transition process he is up to what we do behind closed doors.) I have read it is difficult for FTM's who are looking for that special someone simply because most straight women can't get past the "below the belt" issues and most gay women can't get past the "but now he's a man" issues.

So getting back to the original topic, perhaps the straight girl entering the gay world is spending too much time figuring out where she fits in rather than figuring out where she wants to fit. If you percieve her having difficulties, maybee she needs a little time adjusting. I would have to talk to her directly. The ultimate question is if she sees a future with her new love, and she can't answer that until she is no longer blinded by that love.

I intend on looking at other threads and although I certainly don't consider myself an expert, I do consider myself somewhat of a rarity. I know there are others out there who have had similar experiences!