More on where do I fit in? Labels, why do we need them?

[laruss]

I write a blog and usually it is about inspiration and creativity and my journey through that. This week however I have been really thinking a lot about labels and I had already posted a thread under 'Gender and Identity' called "Where do I fit in?", but I wanted to share my blog article as well. I am looking to generate discussion.

http://wisdomworks-laruss.blogspot.ca/2012/03/whats-my-label-and-do-i-need-one.html

I open this up to discussion and my questions are... What's your label, how did you come up with that label and do you need a label?

I have changed how I identify on this sight 3 or 4 times and I have only been here a few days.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Can you tell I'm having a mini crisis this week??

[Corkey]

Human is my label, He is my pronoun, Transgendered is my gender, my biology is female. I am differently abled and older than dirt. I am married and happy. That should cover just about everything.

[Toughy]

I don't consider my gender identifications (woman butch) to be a label. I don't consider my sexual orientation a label.

What do you mean by label?

[EnderD_503]

I write a blog and usually it is about inspiration and creativity and my journey through that. This week however I have been really thinking a lot about labels and I had already posted a thread under 'Gender and Identity' called "Where do I fit in?", but I wanted to share my blog article as well. I am looking to generate discussion.

http://wisdomworks-laruss.blogspot.ca/2012/03/whats-my-label-and-do-i-need-one.html

I open this up to discussion and my questions are... What's your label, how did you come up with that label and do you need a label?

I have changed how I identify on this sight 3 or 4 times and I have only been here a few days.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Can you tell I'm having a mini crisis this week??

I guess for me, identity "labels" have become more and more for situations where people just don't "get" it or for socio-political reasons where you need obvious visibility for something outside the norm. It can also be for finding community and building community when our societies still haven't fully come to accept human diversity. Basically, you often need some kind of discourse before you can find others who feel similarly as you.

I identify as queer as far as my sexual orientation, and transguy as far as my sex (which is important for me to make clear that I occupy a sexed space that is neither female nor cissexed male, but transmale). Butch (still male-identified) is another that is still a part of me.

Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework. I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence. Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.

Trans at this point for me is probably not as static. As I mentioned above, the identity of transmale is important for me as far as continuing to push for the recognition of sex beyond cissexed female and cissexed male. I fall into the trans category as far as we understand it here, but I see it as temporal and definitely very socially and politically motivated. If society ever realises that more than two or three sexes exist, and that sex can't actually be defined within the narrow confines it is today, then "trans" itself won't need to be such a fixed identity. Mostly I'm content with "non-normatively sexed" for whatever it means. I also see the real importance of a trans identity (for me) on a political scale, as far as trans rights in Canada (mostly in amending the approach to medical care, acceptance within athletic competition at every level that cis people can compete in, acceptance in society as just as legitimate as cis people etc) and generally changing public attitudes.

On the other hand, all three identities for me hold personal value. When I was first really coming to accept myself and understand myself when it came to my sex, the b/f community and understanding myself through formation of my butch identity. That history is not going to go away and it's not something I intend to throw by the way side. Same with trans as an identity and everything it brought me with understanding myself.

Basically, identity labels mean whatever you want them to mean. Some of them are relevant because of the society we live in, some of them forced upon us, others we can reclaim or use for political/social change. Others might just help you understand you a little bit better until a time comes when you don't feel you need that discourse anymore. I think they're definitely relevant in a society that denies so many of us our own diversity; that tells us that heterosexuality is "norm" and "natural" state of being, that there are only two sexes, that gender/interests are tied to the current medical communities understanding of "biological" sex etc. It's a way of finding a place for yourself in a world that claims you don't exist.

[aishah]

my sexual orientation is queer (technically speaking i am pansexual but i prefer the term queer). my gender identity is femme (and i was assigned female at birth so i am cisgendered). i'm disabled and mixed (native/white).

these are not labels to me...they are all integral parts of who i am as a human being. they define me, sometimes in ways that are supportive and other times in ways that are difficult to deal with. sometimes they are useful for communicating my particular understanding of the world to other people. claiming who i am has been a powerful process, for me, of creating a space of authenticity in a world where bodies like mine are not valued and where people would not only rather erase my differences, but in some cases wish to literally eradicate people like me from existence. knowing who i am gives me strength.

there are labels that i have that might communicate parts of how i see the world or struggles/joys that i face, for example i am muslim. but these things are not quite as deeply tied into how i define and understand myself. the label of muslim isn't always useful for communicating what i believe (in terms of religion). sometimes it is. so some parts of who i am are not so deeply static or ingrained. 'polyamorous' is a label that describes how my relationships are structured and how i approach relationships - i go back and forth on whether i see it as an integral part of my identity.

Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework. I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence. Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.

i love your whole post, ender, but particularly this part. i relate so much to this.

[Quintease]

My species: Homo sapien
My nationality: Yes I have one
My gender: Cisgendered Female
My gender presentation: Femme
My gender orientation: Lesbian. I couldn't believe people actually thought I would just 'change' my orientation after getting married, as though something I was born with and identified with was negotiable.
My social orientation: Queer (as I'm married now)

[Ginger]

Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework.

I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence.

Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.



First, Ender, thank you for this post! I broke this section into three parts so I could focus on your points; I hope that's okay.

Thank you, in particular, for validating my reaction to the intense and sometimes domineering focus on marriage rights, that I've experienced in the LGBT community.

What's been hard for me—since it became a prominent issue when Clinton was first elected—was that marriage seemed the ONLY social justice issue visible to the white, professional gay and lesbian community I was part of.

As I gradually became more involved in the literacy community (and left my wealthy white lover and her friends), my companions and friends included more straight people, more people of color, more academics and writers, older people, and in general, people who were extremely left in their politics.

And for the first time—now detached from a middle- and upper-class GLBT core of people—I was able to talk critically about the institution of marriage without someone pressuring me to get on the pro-marriage bandwagon and essentially, join them in emulating straight culture, right down to the registry at Bloomingdale's.

Now, many years later, and with marriage legal in my state, I've had more than a couple women say to me, about my relationship, So when are you two getting married?

And suddenly I feel pressure to marry, and even have some empathy for straight women hitting a certain age, in a culture that has capitalistic, religious, or just traditional reasons for wanting her to be married.

(Which is not to say, marriage doesn't protect women (and sometimes men) financially.)

Thank you for making a space where I could say that.

Also, thank you for speaking so clearly about what it means to be queer.

You wrote, "...the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework."

I'm queer!

I don't embrace "femme" anymore, because my partner (who looks and acts in what I would identify as a very butch manner!), doesn't relate to the butch-femme identities or culture, and since my femme identity was always contextual—I put it out there as a shortcut in my search for a butch lover—it felt like one hand clapping for a while, and then I just didn't "feel" it at all.

Queer, as you describe it, is me to a T. Yes, I exist "outside a sexually normative framework"—totally.

PS, I know many women ID as femme whether their lover is butch, trans, a lesbian, whatever—I respect you and ask you not to denigrate the contextual nature of my femme ID. Thank you!

[EnderD_503]

[COLOR="DimGray"][FONT="Fixedsys"][SIZE="3"]And for the first time—now detached from a middle- and upper-class GLBT core of people—I was able to talk critically about the institution of marriage without someone pressuring me to get on the pro-marriage bandwagon and essentially, join them in emulating straight culture, right down to the registry at Bloomingdale's.

Now, many years later, and with marriage legal in my state, I've had more than a couple women say to me, about my relationship, So when are you two getting married?

And suddenly I feel pressure to marry, and even have some empathy for straight women hitting a certain age, in a culture that has capitalistic, religious, or just traditional reasons for wanting her to be married.

Yeah, I really think the next real struggle for the queer community is going to be (and probably already is) really getting out there and talking about why gaining marriage equality may not have actually meant that much for queer rights. Obviously, every person should have the same rights as others so that if a straight cis couple are legally able to marry, then same-sex couples and trans people should also be able to marry legally. At the same time, there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

And I agree, a lot of spaces do really make it hard for people to talk about. I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.

[Nadeest]

Honestly, I would like the ability to get married, come what may. Mind you, theoritically, given that I am primarily attracted to women, and.......... I am a pre-op mtf, I could get married, right now. Still, sooner or later, I am going to have GRS, too, so then what? In either case, I want people to have the freedom to marry whom they choose, regardless of gender.
However, I am not saying that monogamous marriages are the only way to go, either. Polyamory should certainly be legalized and accepted as well, to my mind.

[kittygrrl]

I think labeling is especially useful when someone is trying to figure out what feels good and where they fit socially..I think being a queer woman now is a lot different then it was 15 years ago when p.c was in and just about everything else was thrown "out" (at least this was my experience)..having nothing for comparison was a bit hard on my psyche (being femme) so I can't imagine how difficult it may have been for transgender etc..so I don't see anything wrong with labeling if it helps you personally..what's not so appreciated is when someone else is doing the labeling..imo

[Ginger]

...there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

...I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.


Yes, I have been in that situation, too! It would have been great to have a friend like you there, at the time.

[Nadeest]

Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.

[EnderD_503]

Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.

It is wrong, but I also think it has to do with the American system. In Canada, there are virtually no financial/legal benefits that married couples get that unmarried couples cannot have. A few years before same-sex marriage laws were passed in Canada, same-sex couples were ruled to be able to have the same rights as other couples. Marriage then becomes largely personal, ceremonial and about expressing a legal "commitment" to a relationship.

I see the single-minded focus on the marriage issue that's happening in the US right now as one that does not benefit some of the most marginalised folks within the queer and trans communities in the same way that focusing on raising awareness and legal protection from discrimination and harassment would. If you look at why many say the marriage rights struggle in the US is important, and then look at the queer/trans community in Canada, I think it becomes clear how same-sex marriage really isn't just a gateway into working on more queer/trans rights.

Same-sex marriage has been legal for years here, and all it's done is produce a false idea in the heads of many L/G folks and straight folks that lgbt rights struggles are over because people can marry. Most of those folks don't much care about homophobia still occurring in many communities and environments in the city, about racism, transphobia, sex worker rights, the rights of those who are differently abled and how they experience homophobia or transphobia differently.

It produces this mentality, which is still pretty popular in the gaybourhood, today:

http://www.thegridto.com/city/sexuality/dawn-of-a-new-gay/

That's why I think that, yeah, marriage should be equal like all rights should be equal...but it's really not the most important rights issue facing a heck of a large chunk of the lgbt community, imo.

Edit: that and I still think it privileges a certain idea of "family" and "relationship," that is based on a whole bunch of "isms." Even if poly marriages were to be legalised, we still need to deal with the fact of how it is abused by straight religious people, who just want more ways to abuse women within the "sanctity" of marriage. Beyond legal commitment, in a world where married couples are not privileged over unmarried couples, the reasons for marriage become fewer and fewer, imo. Plus it is also about what IslandScout was saying, which basically creates social pressure to marry as though it is the only logical end to a relationship.

[Toughy]

Yeah, I really think the next real struggle for the queer community is going to be (and probably already is) really getting out there and talking about why gaining marriage equality may not have actually meant that much for queer rights. Obviously, every person should have the same rights as others so that if a straight cis couple are legally able to marry, then same-sex couples and trans people should also be able to marry legally. At the same time, there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

And I agree, a lot of spaces do really make it hard for people to talk about. I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.

I have been saying for years that marriage equality is the last thing that should be on the 'gay agenda'. You can just imagine how well liked I am in many (if not most) of the non-marginalized segments of the G & L communities. I see the marriage agenda as just more assimilation and tolerance. I'm more about liberation and acceptance. Many years ago Urvashi Vaid wrote a great book Virtual Equality: The Mainstreaming of Gay and Lesbian Liberation . It's a must read.

....end of my derail......

[Sachita]

The whole label thing trips me out. Not only with gender but sexuality- top, bottom, etc. I consider myself queer and within the very broad spectrum. I'm at the point in my life that when someone ask me what I am I reply "What day of the week is it?" lol

I'm flexible when it comes to life. Chances are I probably would not date or marry a man, based on my history but I have learned to never say never. Chances are I'm best suited for one who is submissive, since i am naturally dominant, however there could be that one person who has awesome chemistry with me and we are both dominant. Who knows? I've lived long enough and done enough crazy shit in my life to know that I'm down with "whatever" based on who I'm doing it with,

[T4Texas]

I think labeling is especially useful when someone is trying to figure out what feels good and where they fit socially..


I agree with this. For me, the label butch is an advertisement of who I am and what Im interested in.

[Nadeest]

Interesting, EnderD, and I do think that you have some very, very good points for all to consider.

[G Snap!]

I hope you are feeling better now, Laruss, it's been a month...

I think I can say I know how you feel, when it comes to the question "what is my label?" I was there for a little bit. I searched the internet, read a dozen write-ups on label definitions, and asked friends. I threw around a few, and questioned "what would others think if I presented such- and- such as a label?"
I do find the whole topic uncomfortable, as your chosen label can mean one thing, and something different when you start discussing what you do behind closed doors.
I think the whole label thing tries to identify gender and sexual preference in one way when they're two different things. And as sexual preference is not limited to what gender you prefer, it is still limiting as one person is different from the next and the traditional list of labels may not fit you.

I am a girl, who likes men, living with a man who's driver licence has a F next to "sex". As I identify as female, and my partner identifies as a man, I am straight. And as I don't care to discuss what my man and I do when we're alone, I will tell you our sexual relationship is traditional and the details are none of your business. (We like to keep our friends guessing.) I like to say "I am gay because I am happy, thank you very much!" And I refuse to choose a label as I hate them (and also think the "sex" should be removed from driver's licences.)

I am glad BFP has more than one spot for everyone to express their individuality and does not have a pre-chosen, check off box setup. I love seeing the variations people put on labels, trying to express their individuality!

No, you don't have to have a label. My advice for anyone who is currently confused about their "label" should either not worry about that and say " I don't ave one" or go ahead and wear what you think applies for a little while, and change it if you need to. Yes, you may change it if you like. If anyone wants to "get into it with you" about not choosing a label, tell them you haven't found one that doesn't fit - and be firm about this so you don't get sucked into arguing over it - like I was.

[deedarino]

My Label: Woman, Femme, Gay, Happy, Strong, Determined, Curious, Intelligent, Emotional, Open, Beautiful, Stone-ish, with submissive whisperings...My label doesn't change, but my experiences do. And with each of those, I reserve the right to change my mind. Forever.

[Okiebug61]

If I had to choose a label it would be as follows.

Okiebug the humanist
Okiebug the lesbian
Okiebug the light butch


Ok lets just say my label would be Okiebug :-)

[Jett]

TomBoi, and I don't "need" labels no, but I'm very proud to be what and who I am. I've labeled myself in many different ways over the years but when you roll everything I am and have been together into one it just always comes out TomBoi... that's just the way it is at the core and the one thing through all my "labeling" that has always been.

A funny- I was in my gf's bathroom the other day getting fixed up after burning myself on a blow torch head-
Me: Wow, you have A LOT of first aid stuff... how come?
Her: Since I got with a TomBoi

xD
Jett

[Kenna]

Loved your post Jett.

makes me recall the portable first aid kit and the larger one for bathroom closet that I made - equipped with all kinds of latex free bandages - after going camping with Blade at Lake James....him being a guy that was told by the emergency room doc when getting stitches that it would have helped if he would have "brought all the pieces " of his elbow and me the VERY Tomboy (with a little) Femme mixed in who's more comfortable with mechanical stuff and tools than painted pink fingernails and high heals...

[CeriseNin]

Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.
Well said. I use them (stone femme, lesbian) as jumping off points. How much detail I go into depends on the person/people I'm talking to.

[yotlyolqualli]

I used to identify as femme, till I came here.

Now I identify as a submissive femme, with a disqualifier, lol. I am only submissive to one person. ONLY.

I've discovered, through no conscious decision of my own, that I am also heteronormative and while that word being flung in my face at first confused me (didn't know what the hell it was) then angered me (because it was thrown in my face) I began to embrace it.

I suppose, if semantics were what was truly the argument about labels, I should be identifying myself as a lesbian submissive heternormative wife... that way people could identify me as

A)lesbian
B)submissive (wife) (wife being the disqualifier)
C) heternomative

Then again, and having posted all that I did, very tongue in cheek, I think the only label I am truly comfortable with, is Malissa Jane, the name my Mother gave to me. Everything after that truly is semantics and while I do understand the need for labels, I also think that we're missing the oppurtunity to truly get to know someone for themselves, and not the "label" that's only printed on their forehead on online forums.

[bcelly1894]

I call myself a soft butch, teddybear dominant.
I added on the TeddyBear part because of my short fat size, And alot of my behaviour and ways of thinking always seem to mimic the definitions and characteristics of the gay male Bear. Along with the fact that most femmes just kept calling me a sweet, cuddly teddybear, Hearing that made me feel like a child, So, I embraced it instead, And it just stuck.
Growing up in a big city, I only stayed around butches who were more manly looking and acting, And to them, I was always slightly less butch than them, But with an extremely dominant and stubborn nature. So, still butch anyway.

[Angeltoes]

There are so many things I'm still trying to figure out. It's frustrating when people assume that I'm bisexual because I'm definitely not. It's fine if someone doesn't get you but it's not okay when they tell you who you are.

I guess lesbian/femme makes the most sense for me now. I don't know why we need the labels. It's a shame that we can't just get to know each other without caring about sexual compatibility right away.

[*Anya*]

There are so many things I'm still trying to figure out. It's frustrating when people assume that I'm bisexual because I'm definitely not. It's fine if someone doesn't get you but it's not okay when they tell you who you are.

I guess lesbian/femme makes the most sense for me now. I don't know why we need the labels. It's a shame that we can't just get to know each other without caring about sexual compatibility right away.

I don't think sexual compatibility has a whole lot to do with labels. Maybe on some level but this is not a dating site, per se, though plenty of us have coupled at one time or another by meeting someone here.

I can only speak for me. Out in the world, unless I specifically come out as a lesbian, no one knows that I am. Ditto as a femme. I just look like one more straight woman to others that see me. Oh, unless I am with a butch and all of a sudden the gears turn in their head and there is the recognition of who and what I am.

I have often felt it somewhat lonely when by myself to not have that recognition.

Here, that lesbian identity which was hard-won and hard-fought, first through my own self-acceptance, next acceptance by family and friends; can be proudly listed. If I could do it out in the RW, I would.

It is my identity. It signifies a very big part of who I am as a person, who I fall in love with and who I make love with. I am, of course many other things: mother, grandmother, nurse, feminist, etc. but lesbianism is the core of me.

I am grateful and glad I get to say it outloud here on the Planet.

[Jesse]

I am a human who happens to be connected to all other humans in one way or the other, and my name is Jesse. I'm good with that. :byebye:

[LipstickLola]

I don't think sexual compatibility has a whole lot to do with labels. Maybe on some level but this is not a dating site, per se, though plenty of us have coupled at one time or another by meeting someone here.

I can only speak for me. Out in the world, unless I specifically come out as a lesbian, no one knows that I am. Ditto as a femme. I just look like one more straight woman to others that see me. Oh, unless I am with a butch and all of a sudden the gears turn in their head and there is the recognition of who and what I am.

I have often felt it somewhat lonely when by myself to not have that recognition.

Here, that lesbian identity which was hard-won and hard-fought, first through my own self-acceptance, next acceptance by family and friends; can be proudly listed. If I could do it out in the RW, I would.

It is my identity. It signifies a very big part of who I am as a person, who I fall in love with and who I make love with. I am, of course many other things: mother, grandmother, nurse, feminist, etc. but lesbianism is the core of me.

I am grateful and glad I get to say it outloud here on the Planet.

Exactly! I could have written every word! :bowdown:

:bow:

[Vivacious1]

I identify as "femme". I don't use this term to fit in, I use it because it is where I fit. As long as I can remember this is where I fit. Even when I was a little girl it was in my blood. In my opinion, I don't believe that it is a matter of "needing" this label, but I guess I would more describe it as a way to tell another about me in one word. I know that there are many varieties of every label but I don't find it important for myself to break it down any further. I am femme, proud and own everything that the word stands for.:spruceup:

[DanieClarke]

we need labels to know what the ingrediants are

sheesh thats easy

ohhh wait you mean people labels

hmmm :detective:

[imperfect_cupcake]

What's your label, how did you come up with that label and do you need a label?


well label in terms of my desire and how I position myself in the queer community...

this is a bit difficult.

When I lived in Canada and I dated in canada and the US, it was really useful to have a label because most of my local community did not recognise me as a dyke. So being able to say "yes I am one, I'm a FEMME (type of lesbian that other lesbians could actually recognise the term for, even if they didn't like it or disagreed with it, or misunderstood it, at least I could start that conversation)" was incredibly helpful

However I did not go looking for a label/ID, it found me. I didn't have a context for who I was when I was coming out. I found a web page in 1999 of a girl who was describe a relationship she was having with someone and how sexually different it was to lesbian sex as she understood it. Everything popped into place for me when I read her site.

that's what I was doing. ohhhhhhh....

When I move to London (uk) 9 years ago, everything changed. I was seen. I didn't have fight anymore about being a lesbian. I just was. No one gave a shit. I could be a lesbian without fighting for it, dykes chatted me up in a tube station - first time ever, in a public space, anyone recognised me as a dyke and flirted with me. The lesbian clubs had WADS of femminine girls in little black dresses putting on lipstick in the loo. No one asked me if I was bisexual in a club. If I said I loved dykes, I loved dykes and no one argued with me.

Through time, I had friends who were in what I would have called butch-femme relationships. But they didn't bother. It's not that they didn't recognise they were butch and femme... it's that the labeling of the relationship was considered socially pointless. Since no one wanted to know what you did behind closed doors and it had nothing to do with the conversation at the pub or the dinner you were having, it made it redundant to talk about.

you use a strap on and have a cock sometimes? *shrug* good for you. I'm more interested in the movie you went to see two nights ago, how was that?

the *only* time those terms became important really was when we were looking for a date. And then it became clear that I wasn't self definining my gender presentation but merely my desire of someone else's.

When I moved out of london and into the "countryside", the term butch and femme are just not really used. So I didn't have a word to use for my desire anymore. I had to start having awkward conversations with people to find out
1) if they liked the idea of using a strap on
2) if they sometimes enjoy the thought of maybe sometimes having a dick, as well as a vagina
Before I slept with them so as to not offend them if/when that should happen and to not waste TOO much time "getting to know someone" in a sexy way and finding out it's really a no go.

It's at this point that I understood how useful terms were. I started calling it "women with the requisite parts" so as not to bring in pre-judgement about what a butch was.

I still have exes, that say "ok, under your definition I'm butch. And I love being butch for you. I'll agree to that. But really, I'm not a butch" (the years of thinking a butch is a woman with backwards social skills wearing a polo shirt with the collar up who tells sexist jokes and drinks a lot of lager). Ok whatever. Just be who you are, you know how I see you and you enjoy that one-one relationship to the term with me and lets just leave it at that.

I don't need a label for who I am but I definitely need a label for my desire. So, conversely I need a label for others with a specific desire in order for them to find me. That's all I "need" it for. If I was a lesbian that loved all kinds of women, I could just leave it at that one label - lezzo.

But my desire is more narrow than that. So I need a name for it, or for what I'm looking for in order to have a conversation. it's kind of like going into a a restaurant with no menu and no words for the dishes. You'd have to tell them what ingredients to use, and how it's prepared. If I said "Burger" there's 1,000's of ways a burger is prepared but at least we have a starting point of understanding that I can then say "I like it lamb burger, medium rare, no mint sauce, with salad toppings, and some sharp cheese. whole wheat bun. Ta."

The label is there to start the conversation. Me saying "I'm femme" means a generic few things, but not many. But it gets the ball rolling in the general ball park. Just like being a dyke helps me to tell someone which ball park in town I'm using.

I don't care if people use an ID or not. I'd prefer that they themselves didn't really give too much of a fig about it because if I'm with someone that qualifies eveything as butchthis or femmethat or butchblahblah or femmmewhatsists... it's going to irritate me. I don't gender label my friends or my activities cause I just don't. I'm used to not bothering talking about it much anymore and just being in a state of who I am - femme. and it kind of ending there. Just like I don't sexualise eveything into lezzothis and dykethat.... I'm just a dyke. I'm just a femmedyke that likes women who have vaginas and cocks who like to wear means clothes in stylish and fun ways, who wear eyeliner and have scruffy hair and like to screw my brains out like the girl that I am. And sometimes like me to sexually treat their genitals as if they were female or sometimes male. Or sometimes both at the same time. And it's nice if they like to be kind of protective and gentleman-womanly to me. Cuddle me and tell me I'm safe.

I call that butch. but it doesn't have to be called that. It just makes it easier for me to find them, that's all.

[BstlMyhart]

I never used any kind of "label" until I started coming online many years ago and finding community chat rooms and sites. I've never been one to try to fit in anywhere...either you like me and want to be friends...or you don't.

I have and will always be...Gen. I use "butch" as my label not for myself but for others trying to figure out "what" I am. And since I don't have a feminine bone in my body...this seemed to fit.

Those who really want to know ME can always engage in a conversation and simply just ask what they want to know.

I do open doors, pull out chairs, remove my hat, kiss hands..etc. I don't know if those are traits of a label...just who I am. I also cook, clean, do laundry, iron...etc. Does that make me not "butch"? I don't think so. I am also a caregiver, protector, a great "cheerleader" for those who are important to me as they face and conquer their life challenges. I will offer you a comforting embrace, a shoulder to lean or cry on, a willing ear to listen to all that troubles you when you need me, and hold you watching you sleep and do my best to keep the bad dreams away that are plaguing you.

Also, I don't NEED to be the dominant person in the relationship. I enjoy femmes with their own minds, intelligent, their own person inside and out. She will always know that I will be there for HER anytime and in any way she needs or wants.

All this...and more of WHO I am...labels me as....ME

[~baby~doll~]

Gender labels begin now before we are born, since parents usually know what we seem to be. We either have a vagina or a penis so this makes us a girl or boy. I am not certain this is true. Over the last several years I examined many articles and how my own life has played out. I discovered for me gender is what I think, not what the body appears to be. I am in a female body. Does this make me fit into the role society has elected (without my vote) I should follow. I think not. I would say most of us here, oh all of us here, do not really fit this idea of assigned gender roles.
When I was young I was required to wear a dress to school. I hated it from as early as I can remember. Oh but I have a vagina and should love that little pink frock with tea roses and the white pinafore, this could not be further from the truth.
Today I identify most closely with the term Third Gender Queer I am mentally neither of societies idea of gender. I am happy as I am and have no desire to alter myself.
We move onto the next label which is orientation. Yikes, so much to consider. Do I like guys, well not straight guys (there is a bad history). Do I like girls/woman yes! I feel sexually and romantically attracted to them. I am speaking exclusively here. Does this make me a lesbian, only if, we accept the vagina and penis indicator of gender. We left this theory by the side of the road so if not a lesbian what am I?
We are talking labels here. I am gynesexual/gyneromantic as I am exclusively drawn to women. I am drawn more to the relationship then the sex. Oh the sex is great, but I need that relationship building first and really need to feel love.
Okay I am getting there.
A demisexual is a person who does not experience sexual attraction unless they form a strong emotional connection with someone. It's more commonly seen in but by no means confined to romantic relationships. The term demisexual comes from the orientation being "halfway between" sexual and asexual.http://www.asexuality.org/wiki/index.php?title=Demisexual
This quote is stated very well and describes me very well. So let's look at the label and see what it turns out to be.
Third Gender Queer Gynesexual/romantic Demisexual, oh, to this we should add Polyamorous. "My good gosh does this one ever stop.":seeingstars: If you mash this mouthful of words together you know who I am.
The list of genders and orientations grows daily. We can expect more and more as the years pass until our label could be so long we would not want to have to write it out.
So for the sake of simplicity and the fact labels really do not tell the story, the people do. Queer, dyke, butch, lesbian all work for me. I am me as are we all and this is what makes us who we are. We live the mental gender and orientation we think and feel. Hugs loves

[lisa93]

I believe it's all a matter of personal preference.