The Femmes That Love You...

[DaddysKitten]

Daddy and I talk about this often. It was mentioned in another forum I created a while back, that there is so much out there about how Femmes need to be so understanding of their trans partners, but there is little about the support or understanding for the Femmes themselves. Though I am not agreeing or disagreeing, because I don't find it my place to I am curious.

I find myself madly in love with a trans man, for 3 years now. Having never really dallied in any sort of queer relations before, there is still so much understanding I have yet to find. I understand him, categorically, every detail of what makes him tick, because he is my lover. And I have made it a huge part of my life with him to understand him.

But I am curious about the Femme side of things, and what we have come across in life as difficult or challenging when standing beside our protected loves. I find myself, even as his babygirl, extremely protective of him. I am quick to put someone in their place for staring at him. I am almost vicious in the sense, when I think about how such things harm him, even in the simplest way that might just elicit an eyeroll from him.

In my eyes, it is no one's right to make him feel even the least bit uncomfortable out in public. I wish this was an ideal world where everyone is understanding and accepting, but they are not, sadly. I find myself connected at his hip, eager to kiss, touch, caress, and hold if anyone even so much as flinches at him. Because my pride is untouchable when it comes to me being his. I just smirk back at the looks, but... I know it effects him.

This is just one thing I have run across, there are a few more, but I would actually like this to just be an open forum, for us femmes to sort of share, help, or understand what we undergo during our support of our transmen.

I'd love to see this remain a positive thread of shared experiences, so that everyone in this situation can take something from it to help us in our day to day tribulations as their partners.

[DeviantDaddy]

Wonderful idea, sweetheart. I would love for you to meet other femmes who have their own experience when being involved with a trans man. I can only imagine how many questions may come up here and there that I am unable to give input on. Being your first queer relationship, I will say, that you have done absolutely amazing. You have made me feel so incredibly accepted, understood and supported. Which has been so incredibly wonderful. I have dated femmes who have been in the "life" for years and have had experience with trans men in relationships - yet you have gone far and beyond in attempting to truly see life through my eyes and understand me.

Thank you, for all that you do. (f)

[Gemme]

I understand that need to protect that comes from within, Kitten. I've felt that as well.

Transguys, butches and all the lovely shades of that side of our rainbow (mainly, not femme or feminine) have had the stares and remarks, usually, for all or most of their lives. They develop a thicker skin because of it, in most cases. I think it explains the 2x4 phenomena as well. They've lived in their skin for all that time and we, as their partners, have only been their partners for a frog's hair worth of that time. We're more sensitive to it because it's newer to us and we don't have that coping mechanism of obliviousness that many of them do. You mentioned the getting all fired up and your Daddy just rolling his eyes. Been there, done that!

I think this is a very nice topic and could make for a lovely discussion.

[DeviantDaddy]

You mentioned the getting all fired up and your Daddy just rolling his eyes. Been there, done that!

There have been many things such as that which have upset her... chuckles. I have always wondered about the things that femmes (or anyone who is partnered to a butch/transman) have to endure.

There is something absolutely amazing about a femme's ability to sooth the troubles of the world away. But I wonder what that does to them from their side of things.

[princessbelle]

There have been many things such as that which have upset her... chuckles. I have always wondered about the things that femmes (or anyone who is partnered to a butch/transman) have to endure.

There is something absolutely amazing about a femme's ability to sooth the troubles of the world away. But I wonder what that does to them from their side of things.

I am almost sure this is for femmes partnered with butches as well as transmen/FtMs, so i wanted to comment if that's ok. If i am out of place, just tell me...no problem.

As far as your comment on "what that does to them (femmes) from their side of things" i wanted to say a couple of things on that.

Many of us do recognize that there are so many things that the more masculine folks have to go through than the more femme ones do. For me there is a tremendous amount of pride that i feel when walking with my butch. I truly am so proud of her for so many, many things. From her first understanding of her gayness and masculinity to the wonderful butch she is today. I really do feel honored to walk beside her knowing what she has been through, the things in life she has had to overcome, the hate she faces in the news, from all walks of life and the risk she takes every single day she walks out into this world.

So, if i see a glare, or a mean stare or god in heaven forbid anyone say anything to her, seeing red is an understatement. I want to be her advisory along with being her partner. I want to be her defender along with being her baby girl. I want to be her saving grace from this prejudicial world that sees only race or sex or classism or perceived sexual orientation.

It is the path "we" choose to walk with our partners and any hurt feelings or anger or shock that we face from the public, families and even friends is so minute compared to the loving relationships we have with "ya'll", it is SO worth it all.

[Quintease]

I used to get all fired up about trans issues and then wonder why he didn't care.

He'd be like 'I've been living it for the last 5 years, now I just want to be a man.' I would get really annoyed and we had plenty of debates.

Of course he couldn't help getting sucked in. As my friends met him, often the first trans person they'd ever met, they became more interested in trans issues. Plus I had a close friend who was early transition who just couldn't stay away and brought all his enthusiasm with him. Now the hubby is involved in all sorts of things he had originally written out of his life... I know, I'm evil. He often wonders what he did to deserve a rabidly political lesbian wife.

But it was really hard for me. Even harder knowing that the things I was worrying about (loss of visibility, having people think I'd 'gone straight') weren't as bad as the things he feared (being 'outed' at work, future surgeries, a shortage of testosterone, losing his family). At times I felt really lonely, like I couldn't talk about our problems, either because I worried what people would think or I worried as they didn't know he was trans.

It was tough, but I wouldn't change it for the world. It helps that he is absolutely gorgeous (and he really is gorgeous, I wish I could post a pic of him online as he is the best looking person I have dated). I often look at our wedding photos and remember how lucky I am!

[DeviantDaddy]

I used to get all fired up about trans issues and then wonder why he didn't care.

I cannot speak for him, of course. But at least from my experience when she does get fired up and so worked up while I just shrug it off or roll my eyes... it isn't really about not caring. It is more about, as sad as it may sound, it's more about getting so used to it that it doesn't effect you the same as someone who has not experienced it before.

I actually feel a bit saddened by her having to see such things and experiencing them vicariously through me. But it is incredible to be loved by a woman who will stand by your side through it all.

[DaddysKitten]

I cannot speak for him, of course. But at least from my experience when she does get fired up and so worked up while I just shrug it off or roll my eyes... it isn't really about not caring. It is more about, as sad as it may sound, it's more about getting so used to it that it doesn't effect you the same as someone who has not experienced it before.

I actually feel a bit saddened by her having to see such things and experiencing them vicariously through me. But it is incredible to be loved by a woman who will stand by your side through it all.

Don't ever feel saddened by that. Of all the trials and tribulations we have been through, this is a walk in the park to deal with. It is no burden whatsoever. I know how ugly the world is, this is just another aspect of it, I am experiencing first hand, versus through just knowledge and disgust in general.

[Kent]

Just a little bump...

[Nomad]

i'm really nervous about posting this question because i dont want to offend anyone but i'm so amazingly shaken by an experience i had last night that i want to ask people, especially femmes who might have had this experience, for their advice. the two most significant relationships in my life have been with transguys. one died recently and the other i love very much and speak to whenever we have a chance but our lives are separate for a myriad of reasons. i dont have a butch/femme or queer community outside of the planet. (i'm on the east coast). right now i'm surrounded by friends who identify as 'lesbian' and i love and respect them. i just dont feel like one of them. i dont use the word lesbian as my i.d. and i dont feel i'm being disrespectful because of that either. i i.d. as a femme. it's the word that's the rightest for me. sometimes it makes me kind of invisible and i hate that but there's nothing i can do about people's eyesight so i try not to worry about it so much when i know it's not ill intentioned.

last night, because i said i didnt i.d. as a lesbian i got a boatload of anger heaped on my head by 3 women (none of them members of the planet, which is how the conversation started in the first place because i was telling one of them about it when she said she was having a hard time finding people to date) who were so outraged at my 'blatant betrayal of women by reinforcing stereotypes that gay women really just need a good man' and how it was 'a slap in the face to the hard work' they'd done in the community 'to make being gay a safe and accepted lifestyle'. i was blown away by their hostility and by their assumptions and maybe especially by the use of the word lifestyle!

i'm the sort of person who kind of loves everyone. i dont really have any issues with anybody unless they're an asshole and that's usually something we can talk about and sometimes it turns out that i'm the one being the jerk. i dont have any issue with people of any variety. but when it comes to dating i dont date people. i date an individual. i dont want to date a cis-male. i have them as friends but that's it. i love femmes. i have them as friends but that's it. i love butches. i have them as friends and i'd date a couple of them if asked and the time were right. heres the hard where i want to remind people of my disclaimer. i swear to G*d i dont mean to be rude or dismissive and i really apologize if i'm being an ignorant yutz or hurtful without seeing it. but whenever i've been hit on by a female identified butch i typically dont feel chemistry. it just doesnt happen for me. and i dont get why that's wrong. the same 3 women aggressively criticized me last night for 'fetishizing masculinity in women' and i was so stunned and hurt that i actually cried in public which is something i despise doing.

i want to open up my brain to the idea that i'm being a jerk and i need to learn and grow and change and do whatever work is involved in that but i dont honestly feel that i'm turning anything or anyone into a fetish. to me that's like saying i'm turning someone into an object or that my feelings for them arent sincere or based in actual love. i love whoever i love and i'm thrilled by whoever thrills me right? isnt everybody? is there something wrong with me if i'm only attracted to what i think of as queer masculinity? do the angry women have a point? am i guilty of gender discrimination or fetishizing people or do i just know what powers my flower?

oseh shalom

[Electrocell]

No it's how you feel and what turns you on , if these women cannot respect your personal preferences that's their problem not your's. Next time they bring it up tell them you don't judge them for what they like they have no right to judge you for what you like. Maybe you need to introduce them to the planet so they can see there are others that feel differently and the same about things as they do. Educate them.






i'm really nervous about posting this question because i dont want to offend anyone but i'm so amazingly shaken by an experience i had last night that i want to ask people, especially femmes who might have had this experience, for their advice. the two most significant relationships in my life have been with transguys. one died recently and the other i love very much and speak to whenever we have a chance but our lives are separate for a myriad of reasons. i dont have a butch/femme or queer community outside of the planet. (i'm on the east coast). right now i'm surrounded by friends who identify as 'lesbian' and i love and respect them. i just dont feel like one of them. i dont use the word lesbian as my i.d. and i dont feel i'm being disrespectful because of that either. i i.d. as a femme. it's the word that's the rightest for me. sometimes it makes me kind of invisible and i hate that but there's nothing i can do about people's eyesight so i try not to worry about it so much when i know it's not ill intentioned.

last night, because i said i didnt i.d. as a lesbian i got a boatload of anger heaped on my head by 3 women (none of them members of the planet, which is how the conversation started in the first place because i was telling one of them about it when she said she was having a hard time finding people to date) who were so outraged at my 'blatant betrayal of women by reinforcing stereotypes that gay women really just need a good man' and how it was 'a slap in the face to the hard work' they'd done in the community 'to make being gay a safe and accepted lifestyle'. i was blown away by their hostility and by their assumptions and maybe especially by the use of the word lifestyle!

i'm the sort of person who kind of loves everyone. i dont really have any issues with anybody unless they're an asshole and that's usually something we can talk about and sometimes it turns out that i'm the one being the jerk. i dont have any issue with people of any variety. but when it comes to dating i dont date people. i date an individual. i dont want to date a cis-male. i have them as friends but that's it. i love femmes. i have them as friends but that's it. i love butches. i have them as friends and i'd date a couple of them if asked and the time were right. heres the hard where i want to remind people of my disclaimer. i swear to G*d i dont mean to be rude or dismissive and i really apologize if i'm being ignorant or hurtful without seeing it. but whenever i've been hit on by a female identified butch i typically dont feel chemistry. it just doesnt happen for me. and i dont get why that's wrong. the same 3 women aggressively criticized me last night for 'fetishizing masculinity in women' and i was so stunned and hurt that i actually cried in public which is something i despise doing.

i want to open up my brain to the idea that i'm being a jerk and i need to learn and grow and change and do whatever work is involved in that but i dont honestly feel that i'm turning anything or anyone into a fetish. to me that's like saying i'm turning someone into an object or that my feelings for them arent sincere or based in actual love. i love whoever i love and i'm thrilled by whoever thrills me right? isnt everybody? is there something wrong with me if i'm only attracted to what i think of as queer masculinity? do the angry women have a point? am i guilty of gender discrimination or fetishizing people or do i just know what powers my flower?

[Beloved]

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

[aishah]

nomad...i've found some lesbians can be somewhat trans*phobic and/or not accepting of trans*men. perhaps their anger could be coming from that place...?

there is also an issue (which came up in this thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235)) of people being concerned about those who only date trans*men as seeing them as something less than men, or invalidating their masculinity. like the idea that trans*men are somehow not men or more sensitive than cismen or whatever i think is where a huge part of this objection comes from...i mean, i know trans*guys who don't identify as queer at all, they identify as straight men, period, end of story, so does that really make their masculinity queer? if they do not define it that way? there are other trans*men who may only be attracted to femmes or who still identify as queer/on the butch/femme spectrum.

i think that's a really sticky subject and it probably depends on the person as to whether or not that's an issue. generally speaking the issue of preference can be really touchy. i mean...i think it depends on where someone's preferences come from. some preferences are just preferences. some preferences are shaped by norms that can be really oppressive and problematic. (such as the preference for thinness, able-bodiedness, race, etc.) sometimes it's just about chemistry or attraction and it's not something anyone can control.

[Nomad]

No it's how you feel and what turns you on , if these women cannot respect your personal preferences that's their problem not your's. Next time they bring it up tell them you don't judge them for what they like they have no right to judge you for what you like. Maybe you need to introduce them to the planet so they can see there are others that feel differently and the same about things as they do. Educate them.

i shoulda had the chutzpah to say all of that!

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

i agree that taking each person on an individual basis is the only way to live. period. i feel uncomfortable slicing out a group of people from my life in a general way. i dont think i'm doing that at all. i think it's just the way i'm wired to be attracted to some people and not to others. but if i were someone who was only attracted to tall people or thin people (like aishah mentioned) would it be different?

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.


i sorta felt that way too but i didnt have the energy or the gumption to say so. i felt really attacked and defeated and then i was mad at myself later for not saying exactly that and standing up to them like a grown ass adult. now i'm madder at myself than i am at them!


nomad...i've found some lesbians can be somewhat trans*phobic and/or not accepting of trans*men. perhaps their anger could be coming from that place...?

there is also an issue (which came up in this thread (http://www.butchfemmeplanet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1235)) of people being concerned about those who only date trans*men as seeing them as something less than men, or invalidating their masculinity. like the idea that trans*men are somehow not men or more sensitive than cismen or whatever i think is where a huge part of this objection comes from...i mean, i know trans*guys who don't identify as queer at all, they identify as straight men, period, end of story, so does that really make their masculinity queer? if they do not define it that way?

this is totally a great point and i really thank you for reminding me of it because i didnt have access to it when i was writing my original post. i was too wrapped up in my own issue to consider this point which i know very well. i'm really sorry i forgot it because in forgetting it i realize that i'm filtering people through my own filters and not theirs. i know transguys who i.d. as straight males and those who i.d. as queer. i know folks who dont care if people know they've transitioned and others that do. so i'm guilty here of assuming 'queer' is a part of transgendered i.d. when it isn't necessarily so. thank you for the very gentle and kind reminder. i know that i struggle to think outside my own skin and i can be really ignorant and/or selfish sometimes. i think that i'm just always so damn happy that people transition that i want the whole world to know like it's a damn celebration or something when it's not even my life to celebrate! i dont get the transphobia issue but maybe i dont get any 'phobia' issue when it comes to people because what is there to be afraid of? authenticity? my brain is only wired for assholaphobia i guess. except when i am one that is. i hate being afraid of myself!

there are other trans*men who may only be attracted to femmes or who still identify as queer/on the butch/femme spectrum.

i think that's a really sticky subject and it probably depends on the person as to whether or not that's an issue. generally speaking the issue of preference can be really touchy. i mean...i think it depends on where someone's preferences come from. some preferences are just preferences. some preferences are shaped by norms that can be really oppressive and problematic. (such as the preference for thinness, able-bodiedness, race, etc.) sometimes it's just about chemistry or attraction and it's not something anyone can control.

see this is where i feel like i fit. it's not a 'preference' or a conscious choice. it's just what sparks chemistry in me. a friend of mine describes herself as a 'chubby chaser' and i dont know what to think of that. is it just what floats her boat or is she objectifying people? is it wrong to be attracted to someone who isnt thin? G*d knows there's enough pro-thin propaganda in the world! but when i think of 'chubby chasers' i think of people who are actually kind of weird. is that a double standard on my part? i dont care if the person i'm attracted to is thin or not as long as they're comfortable in their own skin and not in danger healthwise. is that disguised hypocrisy on my part? i dont care about weight but i care about perceived 'masculinity' and how it's embodied in the person wearing it. i feel like an unintentional jerk but i also know that i honestly take every individual as they come and i just wait for them to find a place in my world however that happens. there's no conscious exclusion going on but does that mean it's not taking place?

[aishah]

it's so complicated...sometimes my head explodes thinking about it too! :)

for me i just try to be conscious about investigating where certain attractions or preferences come from...and be conscious of when my attractions or preferences are coming from a place of - like - being conditioned by a society where only certain kinds of bodies/minds are valued. or being conditioned by certain stereotypes about different kinds of people. sometimes i just like what/who i like. sometimes i find that i'm subconsciously or not so subconsciously letting a prejudice or fear affect how i feel in a situation. i just try to keep an open mind and be really honest with myself about where feelings/attractions are coming from.

[EnderD_503]

Nomad, you are not wrong to be attracted to what you like. Period.

What's the line between fetishizing and preference? Well, to me fetishes aren't people. You would have to be seeing the person as an object and not a person. For example, if you felt like any transman would do JUST because he is trans...that's a fetish to me. If you didn't care about him as a person. To me a preference is being very attracted to a certain kind of person, but taking each person on an individual basis, and finding out if you would be a good match, if you enjoy each others company, getting to know the person behind the attributes you are attracted to.

Maybe I'm not explaining myself well. But I think you need to tell those women to "suck it." You are allowed to be attracted to whatever you like. It's really none of their business. They sound insecure in their own identity.

Yeah, finding that line between fetishizing and preference is tricky, I think. I used to think dating someone just because they're trans was kind of insulting and fetishizing. Today I feel differently, and just prefer to be with queer people who are attracted to transguys (just as someone can be typically attracted to bears, twinks, butches, femmes, genderqueer folks, women in general, men in general etc.) It really is how the individual sees.

But what I really dislike is how you hear some queer women, particularly lesbians of various identities (and sometimes gay men, though from what I hear, I would probably notice it more if I were into cis gay men, since other transguys I know talk about this happening to them with gay men as well), now speculating on sleeping with transmen "out of curiosity." Basically, just becoming a novelty fuck. Kind of like the transguy version of that Katie Perry song. That lands over the fetishizing line for me.

But I don't think what you posted, Nomad, is fetishizing. That just sounds like preference, and you aren't the one with the problem when other people call you all sorts of things based on your preference. Unfortunately not all lgbt-identified folks are open to other people's preferences and experiences.

[iamkeri1]

If I am attracted to someone why should I have to question to whom or why I am attracted? There have been beautiful femmes in my past that I have been attracted to/involved with, and if the right femme came along, a woman of power, love and kindness, such an attraction might still occur. In my more recent history, however, it has been primarily ftm's with whom I have been involved, though relationships with two of them began as woman to (I thought) woman attractions and later I became aware of their gender discomfort.

I think butches, whether male or female identified are HOT and they attract me. I think FTM's are HOT and they attract me. But what really attracts me is self knowledge and self acceptance. I am attracted to butches who self identify as butches, who like being butch and who are attracted to femmes. For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

If I met a woman who (to me) was butch as hell, but who did not identify as butch, I would worry that her involvement with me would make her feel pressured to be "more butch" or could result in her pressuring me to be "less femme." This I do not want.
Smooches,
Keri

[Quintease]

Yeah, finding that line between fetishizing and preference is tricky, I think. I used to think dating someone just because they're trans was kind of insulting and fetishizing. Today I feel differently, and just prefer to be with queer people who are attracted to transguys (just as someone can be typically attracted to bears, twinks, butches, femmes, genderqueer folks, women in general, men in general etc.) It really is how the individual sees.


The first transguy I dated liked me partly as I wasn't attracted to transguys. In his eyes that made my attraction for him more 'genuine'. My current partner, my husband, partly liked me as I was attracted to a broad range of identities, therefore he felt safe that it was 'him' I was attracted to and not the novelty of his gender. I found both of these attitudes quite normal and understandable at the time.

Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?

Susie Bright provided part of my answer by interviewing a long since transitioned transman (no idea of his name) who assured her readers that he was not offended by the idea of fetishisation. In fact he'd found it made lesbians more likely to consider him a potential partner. I know if I met a boy who demanded I be attracted to cis-gendered men also, or accused me of demeaning the entire trans community by only wanting to date a transman, then I probably wouldn't want to date him anyway.

[thedivahrrrself]

From deviantdaddy:
I cannot speak for him, of course. But at least from my experience when she does get fired up and so worked up while I just shrug it off or roll my eyes... it isn't really about not caring. It is more about, as sad as it may sound, it's more about getting so used to it that it doesn't effect you the same as someone who has not experienced it before.

I actually feel a bit saddened by her having to see such things and experiencing them vicariously through me. But it is incredible to be loved by a woman who will stand by your side through it all.


Though I am femme, I've always been a bit of a weirdo, so I've been stared at much of my life for one reason or another. Now, of course, this doesn't equate to the level of staring that my butch/trans friends get, but it gives me a complementary coping mechanism.

So, I guess I'm past the point of getting upset when someone stares at him or gives us an odd look. I swell with pride, lift my head, and hold his hand a little tighter. Let them stare. I am proud of us.
http://i50.tinypic.com/2ynnkuu.jpg

[Beloved]

For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.


Ok...I found this idea rather interesting. I am currently dating an FTM that was never a part of the queer community. We met online and before I met him in person I wondered how he would differ than FTM's I met that were in the queer community for years. Those are the only ones I have ever known.

He was in a heterosexual relationship/marriage for 20 years and even has 2 children that he bore himself. He didn't have any romantic relations with women/femmes at all until transitioning.

Yes, his experiences and perspectives are different but you know what? I am LOVING IT! And he knows I identify as queer and I do not feel any less queer being with him. He's absolutely amazing. I don't care how he identifies. He doesn't really identify himself as queer but he realizes that because he's trans, that's kinda queer in itself.

[Nomad]

If I am attracted to someone why should I have to question to whom or why I am attracted? There have been beautiful femmes in my past that I have been attracted to/involved with, and if the right femme came along, a woman of power, love and kindness, such an attraction might still occur. In my more recent history, however, it has been primarily ftm's with whom I have been involved, though relationships with two of them began as woman to (I thought) woman attractions and later I became aware of their gender discomfort.

I think butches, whether male or female identified are HOT and they attract me. I think FTM's are HOT and they attract me. But what really attracts me is self knowledge and self acceptance. I am attracted to butches who self identify as butches, who like being butch and who are attracted to femmes. For FTM's, it is fine with me that they live as male rather than trans, but they must have come out of the queer community and be attracted to femmes, because I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged.

If I met a woman who (to me) was butch as hell, but who did not identify as butch, I would worry that her involvement with me would make her feel pressured to be "more butch" or could result in her pressuring me to be "less femme." This I do not want.
Smooches,
Keri

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

[Beloved]

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

So I have a question for you. If you are with someone who is trans than he must be out to everyone as trans so other people don't think you could be a straight couple?

If the person I am with accepts that I am queer, that is enough for me. My ID isn't dependent on anyone else. I'm really unaffected how others may perceive me based on what kind of relationship they think I'm in.

[Quintease]

So I have a question for you. If you are with someone who is trans than he must be out to everyone as trans so other people don't think you could be a straight couple?

If the person I am with accepts that I am queer, that is enough for me. My ID isn't dependent on anyone else. I'm really unaffected how others may perceive me based on what kind of relationship they think I'm in.

Oh god, I go through this all the time! I HATE outing my husband, but whenever I don't out myself to lesbians (I have a rule that I don't ever out him to str8 people or gay men) they immediately assume I've 'gone straight'. It doesn't matter if they know I was a lesbian for 15 years, or that I'm part of an LGBT organisation, or even that I was once married to a woman. The fact that I'm with a man now makes me 'straight'. Knowing he is trans however changes that, they are still confused but at least I can be queer.

[Nomad]

So I have a question for you. If you are with someone who is trans than he must be out to everyone as trans so other people don't think you could be a straight couple?

If the person I am with accepts that I am queer, that is enough for me. My ID isn't dependent on anyone else. I'm really unaffected how others may perceive me based on what kind of relationship they think I'm in.

:annoyed: this kinda pisses me off and i'm not sure why but i'm gonna make myself perfectly clear here: my i.d. isnt 'dependent' on anyone else either. if you re-read the part i highlighted in red in the post Keri wrote you'll see that neither her or my statement was about random "others". it was about the other person in the relationship.

Keri wrote: ... I want my own identity to be acknowledged at least by them. I do not want a ftm to be attracted to me thinking I am a straight women. I want my queerness to be acknowledged....

my statement was an agreement with what Keri said about the person i'm dating not regarding me as straight. if i'm dating someone who happens to be transgendered it had pretty damn well better be clear to them who i am or i havent done my job of getting to know them and letting them know me and we have no business dating. i am not straight, period and end of sentence. my identity and my identifying words are just as important as anyone elses and i wont be negated by them or anyone. having the chutzpah to follow your truth and become who you are isnt the property of transgendered people. why should my i.d. take a back seat to someone elses just because they may i.d differently than i do or because their process of becoming who they are was different or maybe harder than mine? i've had a journey in life too. i'm still standing and still active in my pursuit of that journey and i'm proud of that. i'm even more proud of it because i'm still standing in my truth as a queer femme. if the person i wanted to date (no matter who they are or what their own identity truth is) wouldnt accept who i identify as and wont make room for me to be who i am completely then they get their permanent walking papers and they can sort out their regrets over that on someone elses watch because i wont have it. been f*cking there, done f*cking that and got the f*cking trashed self-esteem! :angry:

deep breath

:worried: sorry for getting all verklempt Beloved! i'm gonna ask your forgiveness here because i think i'm seriously having a flash back or something! :bouquet:

your question is a valid one it's just not at all what i was trying to convey. i should have been more clear earlier. i had an experience where someone else got to take up all the room when it came to gender identity and there wasnt any room for me. what i mean by that is that they stopped being able to see me when it came to identity because they were so intensely focused on themselves and their own identity that there wasnt room for anyone else in the same space. we couldnt even talk about it without serious tension taking over. i'm not talking about selfishness because i dont think of them as selfish. it just felt like who they were to the rest of the world, identity and character, was more important than who they were to me. writing my response to your post made me recall how i felt when i realized that they'd lost sight of who i am, both in identity and character too. it wasnt malicious or anything. it's just what happened. my friend also didnt see that who they were actually presenting to the world had nothing to do with their identity as they perceived it. there was so much tension around the issue of identity and gender that they didnt really show the world the warm and interesting person they were.

[EnderD_503]

The first transguy I dated liked me partly as I wasn't attracted to transguys. In his eyes that made my attraction for him more 'genuine'. My current partner, my husband, partly liked me as I was attracted to a broad range of identities, therefore he felt safe that it was 'him' I was attracted to and not the novelty of his gender. I found both of these attitudes quite normal and understandable at the time.

Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?

Susie Bright provided part of my answer by interviewing a long since transitioned transman (no idea of his name) who assured her readers that he was not offended by the idea of fetishisation. In fact he'd found it made lesbians more likely to consider him a potential partner. I know if I met a boy who demanded I be attracted to cis-gendered men also, or accused me of demeaning the entire trans community by only wanting to date a transman, then I probably wouldn't want to date him anyway.

Yeah, it depends on the individual. I'm definitely one of those guys who would prefer that a woman I'm with be attracted to transguys (hopefully in conjunction with another sex other than normative cismen..like, queer in some way or other). I won't date straight-identified women, personally. I prefer to date women who are somehow within the lgbt and/or queer spectrum. But at the same time it really depends not so much on someone identifies on the lgbtq spectrum, but how they see you.

Is part of the fetishisation the incorrect idea that transguys are "both a man and a woman" or or a man with whatever assumption about genitalia, or "or an x that used to be a y," or "the body and/or identity of this with the emotional capabilities of that" and so on? If so that's problematic to me...but not to other guys who might identify with that. So yeah, totally individual.

I think its trying to strike that balance between curiosity or interest and making sure to see someone as they see themselves and respecting who they are. So maybe the line isn't always between preference and fetishisation, but between the kind of fetishisation where other people place an identity on top of an individual instead of having a fetish for the identity the person actually has.

I think it depends on the politics of the transguy, too, and the way they see being trans. Some guys just want to be "a normal cis guy," see trans as a "period in their lives" or a "birth defect" and so identifying as straight and being with women who aren't into transguys or who are just into guys generally might make sense for them.

Other transguys prefer to be transguys and not seen as the same sex as cisguys (some hate being mistaken for cismen as much as they hate being mistaken for female and prefer to occupy a more transmale ground or an area that might be "confusing" to many people), with transmale as a different sex entirely than cismale or cisfemale. Just the way many lesbians are only into women or "straight"-identified women only into cismen, I think its logical that some people might largely be into trans people as sexes of their own or also into trans people in addition to other sexes/genders/identities or whatever.

i get this. i really do. i dont want to be thought of as straight.

Right there with you...but I hate how people always assume that if they interpret the people you fuck or have a relationship with as X then you must be Y. Which is why queer is so awesome. No little sex/gender criteria to meet to qualify for a sexuality lol Another transguy I know calls me straight sometimes just to piss me off...and it really fucking works, too. If you want to insult me, call me straight :explode:

[Nomad]

Yeah, it depends on the individual. I'm definitely one of those guys who would prefer that a woman I'm with be attracted to transguys (hopefully in conjunction with another sex other than normative cismen..like, queer in some way or other). I won't date straight-identified women, personally. I prefer to date women who are somehow within the lgbt and/or queer spectrum. But at the same time it really depends not so much on someone identifies on the lgbtq spectrum, but how they see you.

Is part of the fetishisation the incorrect idea that transguys are "both a man and a woman" or or a man with whatever assumption about genitalia, or "or an x that used to be a y," or "the body and/or identity of this with the emotional capabilities of that" and so on? If so that's problematic to me...but not to other guys who might identify with that. So yeah, totally individual.

I think its trying to strike that balance between curiosity or interest and making sure to see someone as they see themselves and respecting who they are. So maybe the line isn't always between preference and fetishisation, but between the kind of fetishisation where other people place an identity on top of an individual instead of having a fetish for the identity the person actually has.

I think it depends on the politics of the transguy, too, and the way they see being trans. Some guys just want to be "a normal cis guy," see trans as a "period in their lives" or a "birth defect" and so identifying as straight and being with women who aren't into transguys or who are just into guys generally might make sense for them.

Other transguys prefer to be transguys and not seen as the same sex as cisguys (some hate being mistaken for cismen as much as they hate being mistaken for female and prefer to occupy a more transmale ground or an area that might be "confusing" to many people), with transmale as a different sex entirely than cismale or cisfemale. Just the way many lesbians are only into women or "straight"-identified women only into cismen, I think its logical that some people might largely be into trans people as sexes of their own or also into trans people in addition to other sexes/genders/identities or whatever.

a-freakin-men!


Right there with you...but I hate how people always assume that if they interpret the people you fuck or have a relationship with as X then you must be Y. Which is why queer is so awesome. No little sex/gender criteria to meet to qualify for a sexuality lol Another transguy I know calls me straight sometimes just to piss me off...and it really fucking works, too. If you want to insult me, call me straight :explode:



'qualify for a sexuality' :cracked: i get this image of filling out forms, providing references :blush: , going for a series of interviews and then waiting to hear the decision: 'ms. nomad, the committee has decided that you qualify as................................................ ...... :cheer: QUEER!!':cheer:

[iamkeri1]

Quintease, I love your posts!
This is the journey I have been on since my husbands death, and like you, I gave it a lot of thought throughout our relationship, fully aware that it would be a dilema I would face if he died before I did. (The two of us breaking up was never a considertion.) Since his death I dated one ftm off and on for a couple of years and one stone butch LDR for a few months. My FTM partner felt the problem in our relationship was that he was not "queer" enough for me. I did not and do not agree, our problems lay elsewhere. He actually was the one who got me back face to face in the queer community where my previous queer world was strictly online. I am grateful to him for that, though we are no longer together. I am currently unattached and comfortable with that for the short term. I'm still trying to figure out who I am and where my attraction lies.

My SIL gave me this particular piece of wisdom and it steadies me in my search for myself and my future love. "Sweetie, don't stress about this. One day you will meet someone. You will know they are the right person for you and it won't matter to you whether they are male, female or somewhere in between. They will simply be the right person for you."

PS Q, you are not a cowbag of any variety. as my FTM partner used to say. "you're putting too much thought into it", LOL!

[QUOTE=Quintease;620306]
Now I'm not so sure. What if we split and I discover in the future that I'm no longer interested in having a relationship with a cis-gendered woman? That I'm still not attracted to cis-gendered men and that what I really want is another transguy? What is the next transguy going to think when he discovers that I've purposely sought him out, not just because he's hot, but because he's trans? These are things I can't help but wonder. Will he think I'm a fetishising cowbag?
QUOTE]

[Beloved]

Nomad,

Whoa! My intensional was not to piss you off and I'm sorry about that. I was just trying to ask some questions to understand where you were coming from. I was trying I explain how I felt about the whole thing. I'm on lunch break at work and I am posting from my phone. I don't like posting from my phone so this will be short. For now I just want to apologize for making you so angry. More to come at a later time.

Edit: I've never had the experience of a partner not validating that I'm queer. So I guess I didn't really understand what you were talking about. And until you gave more of an example I couldn't really imagine it. I think that is the basis of my misunderstanding here.

Maybe I should stick to the fun and fluff threads. *sigh*. I don't think I do as well in serious discussions online as I do in person. Real time communication works so much better for me.

[Nomad]

Nomad,

Whoa! My intensional was not to piss you off and I'm sorry about that. I was just trying to ask some questions to understand where you were coming from. I was trying I explain how I felt about the whole thing. I'm on lunch break at work and I am posting from my phone. I don't like posting from my phone so this will be short. For now I just want to apologize for making you so angry. More to come at a later time.

Edit: I've never had the experience of a partner not validating that I'm queer. So I guess I didn't really understand what you were talking about. And until you gave more of an example I couldn't really imagine it. I think that is the basis of my misunderstanding here.

Maybe I should stick to the fun and fluff threads. *sigh*. I don't think I do as well in serious discussions online as I do in person. Real time communication works so much better for me.

i was apologizing to you. in my apology i acknowledged that i was unexpectedly triggered into feelings i thought were old news (pls note my flash back comment). i dont blame you for that and my apology is a sincere one. i didnt delete my original response because i felt there were valid points in it that were part of the original discussion but if you'll re-read the second half of my post you'll see that i apologized and i also said that i thought your question was a valid one and that i should have been clearer to begin with.

i feel like this is real time communication. it's real and it takes time. just like face to face conversation. there's no reason i can see that you should suggest that you dont do well in serious discussions on line. discussions are often uncomfortable and people make mistakes in them. i made a mistake. i apologized. i was sincere. that's all i can do.

[Quintease]

This is hilarious! http://www.darcomic.org/2008/11/11/titles/

[Nomad]

This is hilarious! http://www.darcomic.org/2008/11/11/titles/


this is hilarious! i'm definitely sharing!

[Tony]

Hi all. Just stopping in to say hello. I'm the new guy & this forum caught my attention immediately. I'm glad I found this site.

[Kent]

Can we get a little love? Bump... ;)

[GraffitiBoi]

Can we get a little love? Bump... ;)

A love bump... LOL

[easygoingfemme]

A love bump... LOL

Ahahahaha...

[WingsOnFire]

subbing so I can find later to read. Great conversation!

[Kent]

Just a little Love Bump... :cherry:

[Darbonaire]

"VS" does not mean against..it means either/ or...I have been pondering this very question for awhile now. I do not identify or refer to myself as "trans". I am male...always have been. I had the benefit of being raised with the opportunity to explore my female side & that makes me an even more well-rounded person I think. Anyway, the other day a dear friend of mine & I were talking, & I was discussing a probelm I was having in my relationship...I have no idea what the problem was now but, my friend said, "Well sweetie...that's becaue you don't identify as a trans-man...you identify as a man." I thought about this & then got caught up in life & it went by the wayside. I do have to wonder though...for others....how do you see yourself or ID yourself? If you ID as "trans" what does that mean to you & why? If you ID as male...same thing....what & why?

I am curious since I never thought there was such a thing....lol....I do know that straight women bore me...plus, I have missed my lesbian & gay friends. So, even though I am male.....I love lesbians.....I look at it this way....

Lucky Me !!!

All responses are welcome...

Jonathan

[Kent]

I thought we were gonna have some femmes come in and love on us..

[Dance-with-me]

I thought we were gonna have some femmes come in and love on us..

You've got to EARN the love, cowboy. ;)

This is an excellent conversation - thanks for bumping it.

(and I'll say in advance that I am tired, loopy from some Benadryl, I'm responding from my phone, so please excuse any nonsensical meandering rambles, typos, and weird auto corrects.)

I ID as a queer femme because I find myself attracted pretty much exclusively to very masculine butch's or trans guys, and not at all significantly attracted to more feminine or androgynous women - or to cis-guys. I have attempted at times to explain it or even just understand for myself, but really it just is what it is.

But when I have dated transmen in the past, and it definitely brought up in me some of the same issues that some of the other femme here have mentioned, especially in terms of the invisibility I face as someone who is queer. My own identity is never defined by my relationship to someone else, but at the same time, what I lose when dating a transman is the ability to just be myself and automatically be out about my own identity. When someone who looks like me discusses the person I'm seeing using male pronouns, and walks down the street with somebody who is coearly male, the only way to be out about my own identity is to be very deliberate about coming out - i lase the option of being out just by being myself.

But at the same time, I would absolutely respect my lover/partners/whatever's choice to notrelative as trans or with relating to him as simply male and not as trans.

There are just no easy answers for this, because of course I have just as much right to maintain and be clear about my own identity as any Transguy has a right to be clear about his own identity.

So I'm just really curious. This question is for the post transition guys who identify only as male and not as trans, and who completely pass as male. In what ways (if any) do you feel completely comfortable supporting your femme's assertion of her own queer identity. And in what ways would you like to see her handle the questions she would receive from her friends, community, family, coworkers, about why after so many years she has chosen to date/be partnered with a guy?

Please give your answer from the standpoint that your femme is 100% excepting and respecting who you are and how you identify.

[GraffitiBoi]

I ID as a queer femme because I find myself attracted pretty much exclusively to very masculine butch's or trans guys, and not at all significantly attracted to more feminine or androgynous women - or to cis-guys. I have attempted at times to explain it or even just understand for myself, but really it just is what it is.

I was discussing labels recently and this very topic came up between a femme and myself. (For gender I ID as FTM/genderqueer/boi/whatever. For sexuality I just identify as queer. I only am attracted to and date femme cis-women.) I like how you ID as a queer femme and I think I may refer her to this post.

But when I have dated transmen in the past, and it definitely brought up in me some of the same issues that some of the other femme here have mentioned, especially in terms of the invisibility I face as someone who is queer. My own identity is never defined by my relationship to someone else, but at the same time, what I lose when dating a transman is the ability to just be myself and automatically be out about my own identity. When someone who looks like me discusses the person I'm seeing using male pronouns, and walks down the street with somebody who is coearly male, the only way to be out about my own identity is to be very deliberate about coming out - i lase the option of being out just by being myself.

But at the same time, I would absolutely respect my lover/partners/whatever's choice to notrelative as trans or with relating to him as simply male and not as trans.

The last girl I dated (She is not on this site, nor will she ever be) had such an issue with how I identified that she tried to physically change me. She tried to get me to grow my hair and nails and dress at least more androgynous, if not feminine. When I told her that just wasn't me she would talk down to me, treat me like a child and idiot, refuse to speak to me, and cancelled plans we had together. She said she is a lesbian and only dates other lesbians. I am post top-op and had been on hormones since 2003. She knew who and what I was when she met me and said it's the person, not the appearance, that she falls in love with. She changed her mind when people in public assumed we were a straight couple.

There are just no easy answers for this, because of course I have just as much right to maintain and be clear about my own identity as any Transguy has a right to be clear about his own identity.

I tried to find a balance for us but nothing would make her happy unless people thought I was female and a lesbian right along with her. I'm just too much boi to be comfortable with that. Funny thing is, even without me around people assume she's straight. It frustrates her, especially when all I can say when she complains about it is "sorry."

So I'm just really curious. This question is for the post transition guys who identify only as male and not as trans, and who completely pass as male. In what ways (if any) do you feel completely comfortable supporting your femme's assertion of her own queer identity. And in what ways would you like to see her handle the questions she would receive from her friends, community, family, coworkers, about why after so many years she has chosen to date/be partnered with a guy?

I can completely pass as male when I feel like it, but I do identify as trans and not male, so I'll let one of the men on here answer this part.

Please give your answer from the standpoint that your femme is 100% excepting and respecting who you are and how you identify.

Sorry, I just had to throw in the experience I had with one who was not understanding. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to date anyone who does accept it 100% Someday I will, I can't give up hope yet.

[FemmeBibliophile]

Sorry, I just had to throw in the experience I had with one who was not understanding. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to date anyone who does accept it 100% Someday I will, I can't give up hope yet.

Yes... someday you will! And just so you know before you come out in December, I am 100% accepting. Be who you are. It's what makes me happy (you just being you).

[Darbonaire]

My ex wife....bless her for this......was so excited when we first met she talked to her freinds about me.....she told them I was trans...<cringe>...I cringe because I believe it is my choice to "out" that or not....I believe it's everyone's OWN choice....anyway, she didn't know, she was just so excited to share her joy, & it didn't cause problems & it was all ok. it just wasn't the way I would have liked. I was just beginning the "alignment", as I call it, so I looked like a masculine person but not totally passing as male. After time passed I'm sure she may have gotten questions from folks since she had been very definitely an out lesbian before "us". I don't know how she dealt with it but, she would handle it in a comfortable way for herself I am sure.

I know that I don't really "fit" in the straight world because it bores me, & I am FAR from boring.....LOL....I'm not sure I'd like walking down the street with my partner on my arm & run in to her friends & have her say..."Oh, well he WAS a girl once"...<shudder>.....I guess, if the woman / femme felt her friends were important enough to her to share then, I'd like to think we could all get together & let us BOTH explain it.....again...good question....I really do find femmes MUCH more interesting than straight women....I just do.

[Dance-with-me]

I know that I don't really "fit" in the straight world because it bores me, & I am FAR from boring.....LOL....I'm not sure I'd like walking down the street with my partner on my arm & run in to her friends & have her say..."Oh, well he WAS a girl once"...<shudder>.....I guess, if the woman / femme felt her friends were important enough to her to share then, I'd like to think we could all get together & let us BOTH explain it.....again...good question....I really do find femmes MUCH more interesting than straight women....I just do.
I'm guessing from how you put this that it would very much depend on both the femme and the friends. My friends would think I'd suddenly turned into an insensitive idiot if I were to say anything even remotely along the lines of "Oh, well he WAS a girl once" because that's just not something I would ever say or a mindset I would ever have.

With my friends, for example, it would be a simple matter of "well I started dating this guy Bob, he's a transguy who lives in Baltimore, he's 52 and has a grown son in college, and is a programmer with..." and that would likely be the last I've ever need to mention that he was trans - because my friends, and even my family for the most part, know that's how I roll. And sitting them down to explain it would be as ludicrous as sitting them down to explain that he was Buddhist (though of course I would be expected to seriously explain myself if he were a fundamentalist Christian, and my mother would never accept my dating an out Republican. ;) ).

But if I failed to include that one piece of information with my close friends and close family, since it's been 32 years since I've been with a cis-guy, that's when their heads would spin and they would start giving me the third degree. I would actually have to directly and deliberately lie to my friends and family in order to not out the person I was seeing.

And yet at the same time, I totally get and respect the need to be seen and respected as just a guy, and the right to choose for himself whether or not he's out.

As I write this, I realize that maybe the difference --at least to me -- is that the people in my life that I would say that to are people who WOULD see and respect and accept a trans guy as just a guy. And the ones who wouldn't get that, such as coworkers and acquaintances, are people I wouldn't talk to about the details of my life anyway, and I probably end up getting a real kick out of watching their heads spin at the thought of my suddenly being straight in their eyes.

[Darbonaire]

I'm guessing from how you put this that it would very much depend on both the femme and the friends. My friends would think I'd suddenly turned into an insensitive idiot if I were to say anything even remotely along the lines of "Oh, well he WAS a girl once" because that's just not something I would ever say or a mindset I would ever have.

With my friends, for example, it would be a simple matter of "well I started dating this guy Bob, he's a transguy who lives in Baltimore, he's 52 and has a grown son in college, and is a programmer with..." and that would likely be the last I've ever need to mention that he was trans - because my friends, and even my family for the most part, know that's how I roll. And sitting them down to explain it would be as ludicrous as sitting them down to explain that he was Buddhist (though of course I would be expected to seriously explain myself if he were a fundamentalist Christian, and my mother would never accept my dating an out Republican. ;) ).

But if I failed to include that one piece of information with my close friends and close family, since it's been 32 years since I've been with a cis-guy, that's when their heads would spin and they would start giving me the third degree. I would actually have to directly and deliberately lie to my friends and family in order to not out the person I was seeing.

And yet at the same time, I totally get and respect the need to be seen and respected as just a guy, and the right to choose for himself whether or not he's out.

As I write this, I realize that maybe the difference --at least to me -- is that the people in my life that I would say that to are people who WOULD see and respect and accept a trans guy as just a guy. And the ones who wouldn't get that, such as coworkers and acquaintances, are people I wouldn't talk to about the details of my life anyway, and I probably end up getting a real kick out of watching their heads spin at the thought of my suddenly being straight in their eyes.

Just an example of how awful something could be....it wouldn;t most likely happen that way & if it were to....well, the woman & I would be having a REAL heart to heart chat....lol....I agree that the people in someone's life who would "get it" would be fine.....

[Darbonaire]

I wanted to say how VERY grateful I am to the beautiful soul who shared my journey the last 10 years. To be accepted, cherished, loved, lusted after, appreciated, & partnered / married to such a soul was truly a gift from the gods. I am enjoying meeting all of you femmes who love guys like us.......it's a special gift & I for one appreciate each of you.

In ALL sincerity.....thank you !!!***

Jonathan